00:01:35 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 00:01:54 it could be a feature, but it wasn't happening reliably so it didn't feel like one 00:02:09 also I hope that players in spiderform can't drown like that to steam clouds :P 00:02:15 timezone-appropriate greeting, all 00:03:16 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.9.0-a0-213-gef92d52 (32) 00:16:07 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 00:30:58 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:33:39 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 00:53:01 -!- casmith789 has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:54:20 in the tutorials, I feel like all the explanations (purple text) should force more messages. intrusive perhaps, but I feel like it is too easy to miss vital information (especially vital if you miss or overlook the lesson on ctrl+p) 01:08:17 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:36:03 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 01:48:03 -!- elliptic has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:55:58 Hm. 01:56:23 I wonder if we could use a modified brownian motion system to generate corridors for a mines-esque map. 01:56:55 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:57:50 -!- eith has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 02:05:07 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:07:40 -!- Wensley has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.17/2009122204]] 02:19:31 -!- upsy has joined ##crawl-dev 02:29:34 http://paste.pound-python.org/show/5406/ 02:29:43 here is a working script that shows what I have going on so far 02:29:50 thanks for getting me started on this 02:32:00 so far I have enough information parsed to be able to calculate the player's slaying bonus and also base AC for guaranteed damage reduction value, the first of the two derived stats I'm trying to find with the script 02:32:40 I just need to make more REs to match the values of Player.stats[worn_equipment] 02:40:21 -!- hayenne has left ##crawl-dev 02:43:00 -!- effo has left ##crawl-dev 02:44:45 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 02:45:09 hi 02:49:39 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 02:58:21 -!- casmith789 has joined ##crawl-dev 04:26:23 hi all 04:27:03 itertools.islice? wtf? 05:05:36 -!- Pseudonut has joined ##crawl-dev 05:14:10 moin 05:19:37 hi 05:28:54 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 05:28:58 -!- monqy has quit [Quit: hello] 05:38:09 -!- galehar_ has joined ##crawl-dev 05:40:43 03galehar * r32a2dd253ccc 10/crawl-ref/source/player.cc: Character status show ranged speed when wielding a launcher. 05:44:38 -!- lorimer has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:45:13 dpeg suggested on the forum to remove spellcasting from success and power calculations. Opinions? 05:50:27 -!- lorimer has joined ##crawl-dev 05:51:29 I think differentiating the effect of int, spellcasting and spell skills to casting is good in general 05:54:29 If that would have the effect of requiring more school skills before getting access to low-level utility spells, that'd be really good actually I think 05:55:42 Makes Og casting specialty worse though (but is good for general balance) 05:57:10 Dungeon Olm report should be coming next week, judging by their irc channel chatter it is proceeding nicely 05:57:27 cool 05:58:07 gotta run 06:08:18 03kilobyte * r057751d62dd2 10/crawl-ref/source/artefact.cc: Slight reformatting. 06:08:28 03kilobyte * rf0975c9f0eda 10/crawl-ref/source/ (output.cc player.cc): Reformat statuses one per line. 06:08:28 03kilobyte * r96f2ada6df91 10/crawl-ref/source/art-data.txt: Nerf captain's cutlass just a slightest bit. 06:08:29 03kilobyte * re16a1ef9957a 10/crawl-ref/source/ (spl-cast.cc spl-util.cc target.cc target.h): Cloud targetting. 06:08:55 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 06:12:16 03kilobyte * r9874a1fa20bc 10/crawl-ref/source/ (spl-util.cc target.cc): Axe a few debugging writes. 06:17:58 can i embed images in the dev wiki? 06:18:22 yes 06:19:16 https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=wiki:syntax#images_and_other_files 06:19:44 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 06:20:43 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 06:28:42 galehar_: external hosting only? 06:29:00 no, you can upload your image 06:29:07 how 06:29:10 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 06:29:44 Morning 06:30:37 when editing a page, click the image icon (fifth from the right) 06:30:57 and then? 06:31:26 maybe i don't have the rights to upload images 06:31:35 i'm logged in as a reporter 06:32:37 damn 06:32:41 Napkin! 06:32:56 i'll use imgur for now 06:33:13 but did you try to upload your image? 06:33:25 i don't see the option/button for it 06:33:57 When editing a page, you see a row of buttons above the text area, right? 06:34:02 yes 06:34:15 fifth from the right which looks like a frame 06:34:40 yes 06:34:43 what happens when you click it? 06:34:54 this http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2781010/Untitled.png 06:35:37 ok 06:35:41 something is wrong 06:36:22 I don't know why, maybe permissions 06:36:28 or chrome 06:39:24 https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:interface:interface_ideas&#highlight_weapons_with_a_known_brand 06:39:49 imgur only deletes images after six months without views so should be okay 06:44:10 weapons with a known brand are blue, like the ones not known 06:44:30 your screenshot looks like a bug I think 06:44:40 oh 06:47:18 are settings saved in savefiles? 06:47:56 no 06:50:27 -!- galehar_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:54:06 -!- djinni has quit [*.net *.split] 06:54:06 -!- ivan has quit [*.net *.split] 07:00:16 branded weapons not highlighted (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3831) by ortoslon 07:01:15 -!- djinni has joined ##crawl-dev 07:01:15 -!- ivan has joined ##crawl-dev 07:01:31 BTW, monster class is getting absurd. Its one thing to have monster-specific functions spread across 3 or 4 files, but if you - for example - read through the monster class header file, its quite absurd. 07:01:32 Just oodles and oodles of methods. 07:01:33 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 07:01:54 hi deep leg 07:02:08 Hi! 07:02:31 lol, deep leg. 07:03:16 Cryp71c: distant cousin of deep throat -- not one of the Thorasic Depes, of course. 07:04:02 of course 07:04:04 :) 07:05:03 Cryp71c: or, same for the player object 07:05:28 especially the variables there. Most touch the game's state in general, not the player. 07:06:14 or the user interface, like redraw_* 07:07:22 yeah I hadn't noticed player's condition either, I just happened to be focused on the monster class at the time 07:08:03 and its not helping that a lot of the methods in melee attack class are being moved either to actor (and thus, have an implementation in the player/monster classes) or are being moved just to monster class. 07:11:13 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 07:14:21 !seen elliptic 07:14:21 I last saw elliptic at Tue Apr 19 12:14:19 2011 UTC (2s ago) saying yes, if you are meleeing with short blades it is very good on ##crawl. 07:14:38 hi dpeg :) 07:15:26 :( battery is dying! 07:15:40 (I'm still in the middle of a build) 07:15:43 *sad face* 07:16:19 Cryp71c: building kills battery :( 07:16:54 Hi! 07:17:20 well, laptops serve only to connect to a computer :p 07:17:46 kilobyte, they also serve to support my mobile development of crawl. 07:18:07 Now, if any of you ever write a Dr. Seuss-style about building crawl, you can't say "I will not build it on a bus" 07:18:40 "I will not build it on a boat, I will not build it with a goat. You cannot make me build from source" 07:18:48 intermittent network, I guess? 07:18:50 (still workin on it :)) 07:19:18 kilobyte, yeah, bus has a wifi signal, probably uses a cell-carrier style connectivity component. 07:21:28 my personal feeling is that laptops = paying 3x for an inferior machine with a small monitor and a keyboard that's only a notch better than a good phone's 07:22:03 I don't travel much, though... yet when I do, usually mobile networking is passable enough to do compiles remotely 07:24:17 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:24:50 ok, I see a case of networking not passable enough 07:25:39 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 07:27:02 Alrighty, back in the office. 07:28:19 03Cryp71c 07unified_combat_control * r0eb8a150216e 10/crawl-ref/source/ (melee_attack.cc melee_attack.h monster.cc monster.h): Move _steal_item out of melee_class 07:32:18 03galehar 07stone_soup-0.8 * r49411977052a 10/crawl-ref/source/ (main.cc stairs.cc): Fix leaving the dungeon prompt taking a turn (#3823). 07:32:21 03kilobyte 07stone_soup-0.8 * r871d93ed5048 10/crawl-ref/source/monster.cc: Fix mute spellcasters being able to speak. 07:32:24 03kilobyte 07stone_soup-0.8 * re4cab551faa2 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/database/randbook.txt: Don't use simple "Book" in randart spellbook names. 07:32:24 03kilobyte 07stone_soup-0.8 * r700ba3f3ea00 10/crawl-ref/source/util/gen-apt.pl: Fix aptitude generation with truly ancient versions of Perl, like those on BSD. 07:32:25 03kilobyte 07stone_soup-0.8 * r075b9e3b5785 10/crawl-ref/source/ (AppHdr.h libutil.cc): Fix build failure with SOUND_PLAY_COMMAND. 07:32:26 03galehar 07stone_soup-0.8 * r72cda56888b4 10/crawl-ref/source/view.cc: Smarter genus factoring for monsters coming into view. 07:32:29 03kilobyte 07stone_soup-0.8 * r205a302de4b5 10/crawl-ref/docs/changelog.txt: Reword parts of the changelog. 07:32:30 03galehar 07stone_soup-0.8 * r0c1b08d3d8f4 10/crawl-ref/source/invent.cc: Better error message for evoking melded items. 07:32:33 03dolorous 07stone_soup-0.8 * r0df364aea609 10/crawl-ref/docs/changelog.txt: Fix changelog apostrophes. 07:32:34 -!- gvdm has joined ##crawl-dev 07:32:35 03doy 07stone_soup-0.8 * rc657ec93d4a9 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-pick.cc: shorten these native depths, now that elf is shortened 07:32:38 03galehar 07stone_soup-0.8 * rcbb2b8e7e44e 10/crawl-ref/source/player.cc: Character status show ranged speed when wielding a launcher. 07:32:41 03zaba 07stone_soup-0.8 * r1f7bdbfae8df 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/builder/rooms.des: rooms.des: Correctly check whether we're running in level validation. 07:32:42 03dolorous 07stone_soup-0.8 * rb68bbd61d95f 10/crawl-ref/source/delay.cc: Fix unused variable warning. 07:33:20 !tell galehar_ is that seen_context bug you dealt with in 3b1eaa15 possible in 0.8? 07:33:21 kilobyte: OK, I'll let galehar_ know. 07:33:58 -!- ortoslon has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:34:20 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 07:34:55 freezing cloud and poisonous cloud don't seem to be defined in spells[1-4].cc Are they defined in a book using the big_cloud code in spells1.cc? 07:35:47 if so, where do i look? 07:36:18 kilobyte: Probably not. I think it was introduced by f11d846bb or 2d7b0c83 and those ones aren't in 0.8. 07:36:47 ortoslon: could you upload your savefile too? 07:36:50 gdvm: spells[1-4].cc? They're gone now. 07:37:02 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 07:37:03 galehar: "updateyour source code" 07:37:36 gvdm: you'd have to grep for SPELL_FREEZING_CLOUD and find it out from there 07:38:28 due: what? 07:38:32 that's spl-clouds.cc now, it was strewn around those four files in the past 07:39:32 erm 07:39:37 galehar: tab complete fail :) 07:40:18 due: actually, I just checked, the last stable release still has these files 07:40:34 damn 07:40:36 galehar! 07:40:46 kilobyte: "ew stable" ;) 07:41:31 Napkin: ortoslon tried to upload an image on the wiki and it failed. Do you need special rights to upload files on the wiki? 07:41:51 of course 07:42:10 ok, i've found the definition for spells, looked up what the fields are, but this still doesn't get me to a damage per turn in cloud for freezing/poisonous clouds 07:42:21 due: yeah, I agree :p Running a stable kernel is for the weak, my Firefox is from the 6.0 branch, so Crawl is no different :p 07:42:39 200 means uncapped, but then what? 07:42:47 Napkin: ok, thanks. 07:42:48 or would you trust everyone to do that who registers to the website? 07:43:03 (just kidding, running stable on actual production machines, of course) 07:44:51 Napkin: a good amount of websites allow that, but then, you might not have that disk space and bandwidth in case someone is abusive 07:45:24 gvdm: _actor_cloud_damage in cloud.cc 07:45:49 Well, I just enabled it. But I'm counting on you guys to keep an eye on it. 07:46:04 thanks, i was barking up the wrong tree looking at powc calc from calc_spell_power in _do_cast 07:46:24 kilobyte, what would you say about some additional emails from the tracker? 07:47:13 Napkin: what do you mean? 07:47:17 gvdm: spell power for the cloud spells just affects duration of the cloud 07:47:47 ok, and it looks like freezing cloud is a clear winner for direct damage 07:47:48 I could use some additional help being administrator there, which means setting moving people from "Reporter" to "Updater" sometimes 07:48:12 galehar: thanks for the tip 07:48:30 there is not much other work - but you'll get an email whenever someone registers 07:48:54 Eino, David and Johanna have been the only admins beside me so far 07:50:30 it's about 3 emails a day, easily distinguishable and sorted 07:51:52 not sure what is that about, since spam edits would be visible the normal method 07:52:38 Napkin: it is okay to give admin rights to some reliable non-developer 07:53:10 gvdm: please update learndb with info you find. 07:53:36 i didn't manage to get a clear xdy based on the formula 07:53:50 but i did get a clear difference in scale 07:54:00 numbers of 10 vs 23 07:54:07 plugged into the formula 07:54:09 hehe, kilobyte 07:56:10 How did I do that? 07:56:55 Make you answer in a completely unrelated way, I mean ;) 07:58:36 I mean, I kind of fail to see the connection between giving people the right to upload big files and them registering. 07:59:06 -!- Textmode has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 08:01:07 register, upload lalala.exe, people download it, google lists you as trojan trap 08:01:32 but anyways, I enabled it for everyone who registered 08:02:00 the question about you helping me, was already the next topic 08:02:22 gotta go o/ 08:02:39 see you later! 08:06:25 well, that's a good argument for restricting the rights, though 08:06:32 not sure what Wikipedia and the likes do 08:12:35 -!- gvdm has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:12:49 -!- gvdm has joined ##crawl-dev 08:13:35 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 08:19:51 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:31:13 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 08:42:37 on the "items and inventory" tutorial, if someone is using autoexplore they will be ferried around the lesson on what runed and glowing mean 08:43:06 Wensley: bug? 08:43:16 most likely 08:43:22 please report 08:43:22 also hello dpeg, it has been a while :) 08:43:25 Hi! 08:45:18 also I would like to know what you think of the idea of forcing more messages on all the tutorial lessons (purple text), since I feel that especially lessons that occur with enemies around can be overlooked easily (the dot obscured by enemies/corpses, the message lost in the combat log) 08:47:37 hm, I need to replay the tutorial to say something there 08:47:57 although I am very sure that many player (especially tiles) miss a whole lot of the messages 08:49:14 this particular message whose report I am filing is the first I have found so far that is not positioned so as to force the player to walk over it (not counting the messages that are context-sensitive) 08:49:55 -!- Pseudonut has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:50:37 Wensley: I don't think it's necessary to always force players on the blue square. By the time they play lesson 3, they have figure it out. 08:50:52 The problem here is that autoexplore doesn't stop when the item comes into view 08:51:10 and I believe this is because it comes into view when you open the door 08:51:13 it has to open a door, yes 08:51:45 and at this point I feel like new players will be either giddily using autoexplore or using it simply to avoid having to manually walk diagonally 08:53:03 so we should place the item somewhere else? 08:53:25 no, we should fix autoexplore so that it stops when items are revealed by a door opening 08:53:33 true 08:53:47 btw, item announcement is much better than it used to be already 08:53:47 or, simply add a single tree to the map so that autoexplore chooses the next logical path, which does take the player over the item 08:54:13 there was the same bug when manually exploring and items where not announced on door opened. I fixed that recently. 08:54:47 Wensley: let's fix the bug instead of going around it. 08:55:02 there are two bugs to be fixed here, I feel :) 08:55:57 shall I hold off on filing this report, then? 08:58:53 Wensley: you can fill it, but I think there's only one bug. If autoexplore stop and announce the scimitar, this is enough. If the player choose to ignore it and keep autoexploring, it's his choice. 08:59:35 that's fair 09:01:09 galehar: with regard to forcing, I think the issue in my mind is that the very first lessons in the very first tutorial *do* force more, although inadvertently due to the fact that they exceed the number of lines in the text area, but at that point players will expect to have to explicitly advance the lesson text. this is especially problematic since the lesson for ctrl+p comes soon after 09:01:57 I agree that by lesson three they should be mostly on the ball, but perhaps at least lesson one should force? 09:04:21 Wensley: we can't rely on the message length to force the more prompt because it depends on window size and options 09:04:59 Wensley: forcing more prompt can be a good idea, we have to playtest it to see if it's not alienating 09:09:12 I'm not trying to say that we should rely on the message length, only that on my window (which I believe is default for console size) the first lessons do force more, and until people get the hang of basic crawling it is better to have to explicitly proceed from each lesson. as far as alienation, I feel like people expect a certain amount of handholding from a tutorial, although you're right... 09:09:14 ...in that we'd need testing to be sure 09:09:39 ??swamp dragon armour 09:09:40 swamp dragon armour[1/1]: A magical armour made from the scales of a swamp dragon. It confers resistance to poison on its wearer. (heavy armour; AC 7, EV -2, +pois, 20 aum) 09:12:33 -!- gvdm has left ##crawl-dev 09:16:00 4 staircases to Lair from Snake 1 (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3832) by smock 09:16:03 -!- djinni has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:16:03 -!- ivan has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:22:52 -!- ivan has joined ##crawl-dev 09:23:16 -!- djinni has joined ##crawl-dev 09:24:16 in the items and inventory tutorial, when it teaches you that you choose a stat to raise every three levels it fails to mention that certain races also receive automatic stat gains at certain levels, so when you pick strength and you see "you feel strong. you feel agile" and see that both your strength and dexterity have increased, new players may rightly be confused 09:24:32 03kilobyte * rbac4009f0490 10/crawl-ref/source/ (database.cc files.cc files.h): Detect incompletely regenerated databases. 09:28:03 Wensley: good point 09:28:45 honestly I didn't even realize that the tutorial character was a high elf until that point :P 09:35:48 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 09:39:47 -!- Twilight-1 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:40:08 -!- Twilight-1 has joined ##crawl-dev 09:41:25 well, we could use a human instead. 09:42:19 true, but I'd hate to promote anthropocentrism :P 09:42:34 humans do get stat increases too 09:43:47 all races except Vp and Mu get automatic stat increases 09:44:27 kilobyte: but you only get up to level 4 in the tutorial, so it would prevent confusion but you still won't learn nothin' 09:45:48 human might get to level 5 if high elf got to level 4 09:45:59 good point 09:51:59 I suppose changing the race would also throw off the carefully tailored level progression in the tutorial, although I'm not sure how much japery is already in effect there 09:54:27 -!- galehar has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:03:07 < galehar_> dpeg suggested on the forum to remove spellcasting from success and power calculations. Opinions? 10:03:17 good, but i'd have it add an effect to spell noise 10:03:31 so that its bonuses would be: more MP, more slots, less hunger, less noise - overall, more efficiency in casting 10:06:46 (also support a change to the way armored casting works, to make it better for high-armor-skill races, and worse for high-spellcasting-success races) 10:07:03 personally I'm not sure what the point is in messing with something that isn't broken (spellcasting) 10:08:10 elliptic: +1 10:08:11 certainly one could change stuff with how spellcasting works, and these changes sound reasonable, but it is one of the best-functioning parts of crawl already IMO 10:08:38 I suppose such a change would make specialization more valued and would make wizards give up more for their jack-of-all-spells approach 10:09:05 it would be strange if a high-level mage would be unable to cast cantrips in other schools without first victory dancing that skill 10:10:12 and presumably you would want to make skill in the spell schools count for more than it does currently if you are removing the contribution of spellcasting 10:10:12 I agree. perhaps the value of spellcasting towards spell success might be reduced some 10:10:43 just seems like a lot of stuff to rebalance 10:11:35 could be made into a sif muna passive ability, allowing spellcasting skill to contribute towards spell success 10:11:45 or more, in any case, to benefit generalists 10:16:25 i don't think it's necessarily a good thing in general to remove all of the overlap between skills 10:16:40 the overlap is what makes hybrid characters not excessively annoying 10:17:46 also, "if fighting makes you better at fighting with all weapons, why shouldn't spellcasting make you better at casting from all schools?" 10:18:02 FR: fighting makes you better at casting from all schools 10:18:15 is there some kind of initiative to remove all overlap between skills? 10:24:32 03dolorous * rb0588ba8a03e 10/crawl-ref/source/view.cc: Fix uninitialized variable warning. 10:28:28 -!- gvdm has joined ##crawl-dev 10:29:12 Has someone removed orange demon attacks in trunk? 10:29:14 @??Orange demon 10:29:14 orange demon (043) | Speed: 10 | HD: 8 | Health: 36-70 | AC/EV: 3/7 | Damage: 8, 10 | Flags: 05demonic | Res: 06magic(64), 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 416. 10:29:30 er, the draining aspect of their attacks* 10:29:30 rather 10:31:24 NVM, looks like @?? just doesn't handle the new AF_POISON_STAT 10:31:35 they always had poison not draining IIRC 10:33:36 they used to just have normal poison i think 10:33:40 not stat poison 10:34:17 pseudo-bug: in the spellcasting tutorial, it intends to have you compare your spell success rates with and without using armor/shields, but your undead allies pick up and wear the armor and shield 10:35:09 doy: they had strength draining until 0.8 10:35:26 ah, that's what it was 10:36:54 elliptic: personally i consider it way too easy to cast stuff from other schools with no investment 10:37:11 due to the combination of spellcasting providing a boost and the skill curve making you not pay much at all for a few levels 10:37:52 Eronarn: how about simply reducing the contribution of spellcasting toward spell success rather than removing it entirely? 10:37:57 generally speaking, with a normal amount of int and spellcasting 27, you probably shouldn't be able to cast anything above spell level 4 with any consistency. 10:38:21 i also consider it bad that spellcasting is essentially always worth training if any of your spellcasting skills are, and that armored casting penalty is near totally erased just by being a very good caster (even one with no armor skill) 10:38:34 So at no spell school skill, 23 int and 27 spellcasting, I don't think its totally unreasonable to cast most/all lvl 4 spells (and below) fairly well. 10:38:58 Eronarn: spellcasting should affect armour-casting negligibly, if at all, imo. 10:38:59 eronarn: but you'd also have to make the spell school skills more effective if you are removing the spellcasting contribution 10:39:25 also armour-casting is a completely different subject 10:39:49 armour casting is a new skill in 0.8, only available to felids 10:39:54 elliptic: yes, it'd be making generalists relying heavily on spellcasting worse, and specialists better 10:41:17 Cryp71c: there are a lot of very good L4 and below spells, it would be a lot more interesting if you had to actually train to be able to cast them reliably 10:41:24 the effect of Spc on power is already noticeably smaller than those of the schools 10:41:40 dpeg: yes, 1/4 10:41:44 yeah 10:41:45 also the effect on success 10:41:51 ah, good to know 10:42:34 We have very many cases where the effects of something (say a stat or a skill) are spread out. In my opinion, it is often better to separate. 10:43:03 Eronarn: i don't know that forcing every spellcaster to train every spell school a bit is necessarily a good solution 10:43:10 because that's not hard, it's just annoying 10:43:15 I'm just dubious that the benefits are worth messing with the entire system (and eronarn wants to hook armour-casting into it) 10:43:16 I agree with doy 10:43:19 people will still generalize 10:43:24 right 10:43:30 This proposal sounds interesting, and we want to discourage generalizing into EVERY branch of magic. 10:43:40 it's not actually going to have any effect on how much people generalize 10:43:40 they'll just take a bit more xp for it 10:43:42 I'd say it's working pretty well as-is. It lets high-level spellcasters cast low level skills -- if we removed the contribution of spellcasting, they would have to victory dance a few points (at almost no cost!) to get the same effect. Ie, just a formality, but a tedious one. 10:43:45 it'll just make them victory dance more 10:43:49 But not being able to at least dance a lvl 1 or 2 spell without miscasts is only aggravating, it adds nothing to balance. 10:43:55 what kilobyte said 10:44:55 low-level players don't have much spellcasting so they would have to actually train those skills if they want to cast relevant spells soon enough 10:44:56 making specialists better would make ashenzari more appealing 10:44:56 ??spell slots 10:44:57 spell levels[1/3]: You get one spell level for each experience level (except the first), and two spell levels for each level of Spellcasting skill. You need spare spell levels to memorize a new spell. Losing experience levels from draining won't cause you to forget spells or anything like that. 10:45:05 i don't mind people generalizing, but the costs of doing so are way too low right now 10:45:14 the XP system already favors generalizing 10:45:28 we don't also need a boost that makes generalizing better the more of a spellcaster you are 10:46:10 Its a bit more elaborate, but what if spellcasting only boosted the top X school's success rates, or whatever 10:46:22 (trying to approach this from a different angle) 10:46:28 about AF_POISON_STAT: fixed, rebuilding 10:46:34 Not a very good idea, and hard to communicate to the player. 10:47:37 Cryp71c: i don't think that has desirable effects 10:47:38 perhaps entirely remove spellcasting from spell success, but then allow spellcasting to reduce miscast severity 10:48:07 that might be reasonable, yeah 10:48:17 and, in general, make miscasts more severe :P 10:50:33 oh, in such a system the base success of L1 spells should go up, btw 10:51:09 L1 spells should be reasonably usable for even people with 1 spc, no school 10:53:19 specialists would be able to cast more advanced spells more reliably, but at a greater risk, while generalists would still be able to cast high-level spells given enough rounds and mp (for a small, accumulating risk instead of a great tremendous explosion) 10:53:51 eronarn: so now you want to mess with early-game balance also? 10:54:19 elliptic: removing spellcasting success/power would already change early game balance, seeing as everyone who casts starts with it :P 10:57:46 note that this would also break ogre spellcasters as a concept entirely, for whatever that's worth 10:58:05 doy makes a good point 10:58:44 well, it would only break them so much as it would nerf generalists in general. but yeah, it takes a cruel heart to want to make ogres any worse 11:12:32 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 11:16:32 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 11:18:27 is there a guide to the "severity" category on the bug tracker, or is it not really a big deal 11:21:44 also the current "product version" of crawl is 0.8-e41dd81, correct? 11:21:55 (product version of the prerelease, I mean) 11:22:51 well, if the severity you choose is really off, somebody will likely correct it 11:24:40 Wensley: the version differs from build to build, it is shown on the menu screen and then on ?V in the game. 11:25:04 thanks, I was looking for an in-game command that would do that :) 11:31:22 Wensley: severity is normally minor; trivial if it really doesn't matter at all (the sort of thing you have to pay a lot of attention to to notice), major if it has severe effects on gameplay, or leads to the game becoming subtly unwinnable (disconnected Orc, etc); crash is obvious; block means "things that have to be fixed before we can move forwards with Crawl development", and I can't think of any real reasons why that one would be used 11:31:51 thank you, ais :) 11:32:31 these two bits of knowledge (?V and severity) should really be on the bug report page somewhere. maybe I'll file a bug report for that... 11:32:43 in general, blocker severity's used more often in companies than in open source development 11:32:48 well, "block" could also mean "cannot release with this unfixed" 11:33:02 Zaba: yep, that's pretty much what I was getting at 11:34:22 03galehar * r79194120d99b 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-act.cc: Update the clinging status of monster swapping place. 11:34:32 03galehar * r4e5e0e8f02bf 10/crawl-ref/source/ (mon-act.cc mon-stuff.cc): Fix some clinging checks. 11:34:33 03galehar * r12b0cf775d62 10/crawl-ref/source/monster.cc: Make grey draconian submerged in deep water. 11:34:34 03galehar * rd1c5c3445a2c 10/crawl-ref/source/travel.cc: Remove duplicate assignation. 11:34:37 03galehar * r086dde63045c 10/crawl-ref/source/main.cc: Fix autoexplore not stopping on item revealed by an opened door. 11:38:32 Zaba: about bugs currently marked as "block": do you happen to know something about Shoals failing to generate? ERROR in 'dungeon.cc' at line 354: Unable to generate level for 'Shoals:5'! 11:38:56 I was told that it happens in real games, but I can't seem to reproduce that in any way outside of -test 11:39:34 "unable to generate level" happens when it gets vetoed 50 times in a row 11:39:40 which is quite improbable 11:40:18 seems to happen on -test every time on the first try 11:40:36 well, it generates a lot of shoals levels 11:40:48 thus, I suspect it might be something wrong with test and that rumoured failure was due to something else 11:40:57 I don't know what exactly in shoals levels would make them get vetoed, though 11:41:26 so often, anyway 11:41:45 Two problems and one issue in a room in the Spellcasting Tutorial (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3833) by Wensleydale 11:41:45 I don't know the builder's code -- how may I get some debug data from it? 11:42:48 kilobyte, well, every veto comes with a dprf 11:43:07 that describes the reason for vetoin 11:43:09 +g 11:43:15 repeatedly pressing &^R doesn't seem to generate any vetos 11:45:27 hm 11:46:17 well, the shoal-hut failure is certainly not because of vetoing 11:47:27 there's no way it'd generate 50 shoals levels and veto them all so fast 11:47:52 [TAG] Found map layout_shoals tagged 'layout' 11:47:52 Rotating layout_shoals clockwise. 11:47:52 Map: layout_shoals; placed: yes; place: (40,35), size: (0,0) 11:47:52 VETO: Shoals:5: Cannot place feature at random floor square. 11:48:27 that's dgn_place_stone_stairs, I think 11:48:28 (I had to stick set_msg_dump_file(stderr); in main() to get any output) 11:48:48 that happens on ./crawl -test shoal-hut? 11:49:37 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:49:55 yes, it does 11:51:32 -!- bhaak has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:52:16 -!- bhaak has joined ##crawl-dev 11:53:46 hmm. 11:54:38 when I add a dump_map call right before the veto dprf, I get an all-wall map 11:54:45 maybe it's already cleared by something at this point... 11:55:36 but that would explain why it can't find a floor space, though 12:00:59 kilobyte, how recent is the issue, I wonder? 12:01:45 kilobyte, it's caused by the fact the shoal layout checks for crawl.game_started, which isn't set for testing 12:02:01 pretty damn old, I'd say. Half a year or so. 12:02:01 which I have added not so long ago in making the choosing of layouts less messy :P 12:02:09 when I remove that check, the test starts working 12:02:51 I might have a good solution to that 12:06:42 kilobyte, I just pushed a commit that should make the test run 12:08:20 03zaba * rd97b47c2e205 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/builder/layout.des: Use dgn.is_validating() instead of crawl.game_started() to check whether map is being validated. 12:09:14 -!- gvdm has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:10:42 cool, seems to work 12:11:38 it even passes here 12:11:44 it turns out there were other regressions on -test in the meantime 12:11:54 Wizmode &f freezes with ranged weapons or nonweapon items (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3834) by OG17 12:12:12 should really run it more often 12:12:37 test error: ...home/kilobyte/crawl/crawl-ref/source/test/corpse.lua:15: Could not create item for 'any corpse' 12:12:52 but level generation shouldn't be broken anymore 12:13:10 (which is not on your private yard, so this is something I can investigate without wasting much time) 12:13:40 if you get run over by a bus, we'll be unable to fix anything in dungeon generation :p 12:13:55 (until someone would learn it) 12:13:57 it's a good thing that I mostly rely on trains and metro, then 12:14:05 :p 12:16:11 I don't think we'd be much better off if you were instead run over by a train, honestly :P 12:18:53 -!- bhaak has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:19:09 Wensley: what I mean is, right now my efforts at fixing dungeon generation bugs give a terrible effect-to-investment ratio, so it's better to rely on already skilled Zaba 12:19:19 -!- bhaak has joined ##crawl-dev 12:25:04 -!- bhaak has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:25:51 -!- bhaak has joined ##crawl-dev 12:33:14 it's not a skill, it's just brain damage caused by reading dungeon.cc and the related bits over and over again many times 12:33:29 the code starts speaking to you, and incidentally all the people around you stop talking to you at the same time 12:36:00 ...and there appears to be a consistent monster pathfinding test failure 12:37:00 yeah, it never worked right though 12:37:01 No error message shown when there is no space to place animated skeleton (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3835) by Wensleydale 12:37:28 greensnark added this test hoping to fix the bug, but never got around to it 12:37:30 -!- bhaak has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:37:34 ah 12:38:31 I found out it is caused by monster pathfinding ignoring squares taken by bushes completely at least in this case instead of going through them 12:38:45 not an important bug, though 12:44:16 -!- Khaki has joined ##crawl-dev 12:50:05 -!- bhaak has joined ##crawl-dev 13:02:09 Items and Inventory Tutorial need improved explanation of stat-ups (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3836) by Wensleydale 13:08:39 "A berserker rage is truly exhausting. While fatigued, you cannot berserk again and are also slowed. It's best to rest with 5 until you feel fit again." <-- I don't feel like this adequately explains the distinction between the Slow and Exh statuses (the latter specifically is very opaque) and also misses a chance to point out the significance of the status lights area 13:09:10 -!- effo has joined ##crawl-dev 13:13:38 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:15:45 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 13:20:49 Wensley: add a list of all your comments, and send to someone (can send to me). 13:24:33 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:28:41 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 13:34:00 -!- monqy has joined ##crawl-dev 13:34:29 started an abyssal knight, walked a single step and teleported deep into the abyss. hmm :\ 13:35:18 that's why you start out with the piety to leave the abyss :P 13:36:43 the gate out is always hidden, too -- it's a bit spoilery that you can take it to save that piety 13:36:59 (it's not obvious you can use the ability, too) 13:37:20 hey, I'm saving that piety to corrupt altars. and I'm not complaining that I got teleported after a single step and killed by a large abomination, I think it is hilarious how lugonu treats her followers 13:37:58 (have i mentioned recently i don't really like abyssal knights as a concept?) 13:38:01 (: 13:38:12 -!- Khaki has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:39:02 doy: for gameplay or flavour reasons? 13:39:14 flavor 13:39:39 I like the flavour, but probably because I like the Abyss 13:39:52 it's beautiful 13:40:36 I like the flavour, don't like gameplay. 13:41:11 i think starting in the abyss doesn't make any sense, and it makes the whole "you have to join lugonu in the abyss, abandoning your god" concept basically meaningless, because nobody does that when they can just start with it 13:41:13 how would you change it? I agree that the flavor is incredible, but I concede that the implementation could use some polishing 13:41:20 both taking the gate and the ability is spoilerish and a no-brainer -- and you can take a walk, gathering free loot then escaping when you see an enemy 13:42:29 !lg * win god=lugonu 13:42:29 126. hyperelliptic the Warrior (L23 MfAK), worshipper of Lugonu, escaped with the Orb and 3 runes on 2011-04-03, with 1283956 points after 92021 turns and 7:14:42. 13:42:32 !lg * win god=lugonu class=ck 13:42:32 37. Cruella the Dwarven Barricade (L27 DDCK), worshipper of Lugonu, escaped with the Orb and 16 runes on 2011-02-15, with 13884018 points after 113627 turns and 21:38:11. 13:42:35 !lg * win god=lugonu class=ak 13:42:35 6. hyperelliptic the Warrior (L23 MfAK), worshipper of Lugonu, escaped with the Orb and 3 runes on 2011-04-03, with 1283956 points after 92021 turns and 7:14:42. 13:42:52 only 43 out of 126 wins started with her 13:43:09 "only"? that's a decent proportion I think 13:43:46 !lg * win god=beogh 13:43:47 55. IonFrigate the Conqueror (L27 HOPr), worshipper of Beogh, escaped with the Orb and 4 runes on 2011-04-16, with 1567629 points after 156751 turns and 7:27:02. 13:43:48 !lg * win god=beogh class=pr 13:43:49 44. IonFrigate the Conqueror (L27 HOPr), worshipper of Beogh, escaped with the Orb and 4 runes on 2011-04-16, with 1567629 points after 156751 turns and 7:27:02. 13:44:04 Beogh has 80%... 13:44:07 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 13:44:16 beogh is obviously a special case though since most chars can't choose beogh later :P 13:44:21 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:44:57 yred is 43/77, which I guess is still higher 13:45:36 yred doesn't have much/any late-game appeal though 13:45:45 well, the point is, you don't take lugonu out of an impulse, like you do with overflow altars on other gods 13:45:55 and ely is 38/76 13:46:24 !lg * ktyp=winning cv>=0.7 god=lugonu 13:46:24 38. hyperelliptic the Warrior (L23 MfAK), worshipper of Lugonu, escaped with the Orb and 3 runes on 2011-04-03, with 1283956 points after 92021 turns and 7:14:42. 13:46:24 you take lugonu not because you want to, but because you have to, if not a starting god 13:46:29 doy: the question of whether to switch to L after banishment is as relevant as ever 13:46:32 even xom is 35/90 13:46:32 !lg * ktyp=winning cv>=0.7 god=lugonu class=~[ca]k 13:46:33 No games for * (ktyp=winning cv>=0.7 god=lugonu class=~[ca]k). 13:46:44 !lg * ktyp=winning cv>=0.7 god=lugonu class~~[ca]k 13:46:44 No games for * (ktyp=winning cv>=0.7 god=lugonu class~~[ca]k). 13:46:47 so 43/126 really doesn't seem that notable 13:46:49 !lg * ktyp=winning cv>=0.7 god=lugonu class=ck 13:46:49 10. Cruella the Dwarven Barricade (L27 DDCK), worshipper of Lugonu, escaped with the Orb and 16 runes on 2011-02-15, with 13884018 points after 113627 turns and 21:38:11. 13:46:52 !lg * ktyp=winning cv>=0.7 god=lugonu class=ak 13:46:52 6. hyperelliptic the Warrior (L23 MfAK), worshipper of Lugonu, escaped with the Orb and 3 runes on 2011-04-03, with 1283956 points after 92021 turns and 7:14:42. 13:47:03 re: flavour vs gameplay. My main motivation to suggest CK of L was reducing need of spoilerage (about what goes on in the Abyss) 13:47:07 ais523: well, why? I looked hard how to approach an overflow altar to her in a game today. 13:47:26 dpeg: there would also be an incentive to switch even if not strictly necessary, if l wasn't a starting god 13:47:32 also, note that I have experience trying to get every god as a non-starting god (due to a literal reading of the tournament rules) 13:47:33 as an impulse at finding such an altar on D:2 13:47:36 which i think would make the choice more interesting 13:47:43 for Lugonu, it required a stupid sort of scumming 13:47:52 putting on heavy armour as a caster and repeatedly trying to get a banishment miscast 13:48:00 do you want to encourage that sort of spoilerish scumming? 13:48:34 people do take lugonu at corrupted temple 13:48:38 doy: but letting players experience the Abyss is good, too. This just depends on how you weigh those parts. 13:49:00 IIRC that tourney banner looked only at the god you died/won with 13:49:12 dpeg: sure, i just think players are going to experience the abyss plenty on their own(: 13:49:25 yes, it wasn't optimal (the original design was different) 13:49:51 -!- MarvinPA_ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:49:55 doy: I've played Crawl for many hours, and except in Sprint, have never been Abyssed without deliberately trying to be 13:50:00 mwahahaha I gave the Enchantress banishment _plus_ 25% chance for a weapon of distortion, and each of her honor guard a 10% chance :) 13:50:02 because I rarely get that far in the game 13:50:10 doy: I believe that the Abyss is a place where reading spoilers pays pretty much 13:50:14 perhaps good players get abyssed all the time; but most players won't get that far 13:50:25 well, Zot traps, random orc with a weapon of distortion, ... 13:50:25 (unless players are able to get to D deep enough with abyss portals) 13:50:51 ais523: if that's the case, then what is the point of exposing new players to the abyss at all? 13:50:51 ais523: players who die a lot will still get hit by distortion or banished by erolcha 13:51:23 elliptic: I've never met erolcha, I don't think 13:51:31 and have seen maybe 2 or 3 distortion weapons 13:51:46 ais523: i really don't think your experience is representative of basically anyone else 13:51:49 and despite that, I've reached Lair several times, and Snake:$ once 13:51:55 also Orc:$ more than once 13:52:07 doy: so why is my experience so unrepresentative, then? 13:52:28 I'm ignoring all the games here where I was trying to do something weird 13:53:08 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 13:54:13 ais523: about half of all abyssings happen at XL < 10 13:54:53 elliptic: and 10 is a low experience level? 13:55:14 I think it's because once you reach experience levels that high, the game is a lot less lethal than it is early 13:55:19 you can still die, but it's a lot less likely 13:55:23 Erolcha banishes people once in a blue moon, especially in 0.6+ now that people don't play low-MR bruisers exclusively 13:55:42 !lm * type=abyss.enter s=noun 13:55:42 20178 milestones for * (type=abyss.enter): 3828x the effects of Hell, 2848x ?, 2272x distortion unwield, 2073x a Zot trap, 1038x deep elf sorcerer, 924x Louise, 599x deep elf demonologist, 485x Lugonu's wrath, 431x drawing a card, 421x a distortion effect, 406x deep elf mage, 393x ogre-mage, 369x Erolcha, 307x ogre mage, 305x Xom, 219x the power of Zot, 175x self, 173x wizard, 158x a card of wild ... 13:56:24 369x Erolcha is hardly one in a blue moon 13:57:07 oh, sorry, I was wrong about half of all abyssings being XL < 10 13:57:10 but still plenty of people have 13:57:14 :) 13:57:48 the 3828 hell banishments are gone 13:57:51 -!- the_glow has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:57:53 there's so many more games that get only to D:10 than to hell 13:58:06 so? 13:58:07 !lg * killer=Erolcha s=place 13:58:09 1115 games for * (killer=Erolcha): 459x D:9, 284x D:8, 220x D:10, 69x D:11, 21x D:12, 13x D:13, 11x D:7, 9x Orc:2, 8x Orc:4, 7x Orc:1, 7x Orc:3, 3x D:14, 2x Elf:1, 1x Snake:1, 1x Abyss 13:58:26 heh, Abyss :) 13:58:57 yes, cute 13:59:22 personally I think that introducing people to the abyss is a perfectly reasonable thing to want AK start to do, but I'd agree that it doesn't do a very good job of that currently 13:59:38 elliptic: how to change? 14:00:52 +1 elliptic, +1 dpeg :p 14:01:29 (I can't think of a good suggestion right now, too) 14:01:33 well, one could try to encourage people to move around in it more without having to worry about monsters and items and such... maybe make people have to wander around in an empty abyss for a while before finding the exit? 14:02:02 that could at least give the idea of what the landscape is like 14:02:15 might be a little too fake though 14:02:22 You cannot give starting players the real deal. So my plan was that players can test the Abyss via AK after dying there for the first time. 14:02:34 And this you can do... 14:03:31 well 14:03:57 you could give them the real deal if we fixed all the stuff we're meaning to fix with the abyss 14:04:39 then just put the player in the actual abyss at xl1, have it scaled to their strength, and give them no god, and a guaranteed altar and exit nearby 14:04:47 I'm more concerned about the player who tries AK before having seen the abyss in a game, frankly 14:05:53 it still wouldn't make much flavor sense, but it would work better from a gameplay standpoint 14:08:16 elliptic: don't offer AK right away, have to unlock it by dying in the Abyss :P 14:08:41 not a fan of locked races/backgrounds 14:08:53 yeah, no locking 14:09:18 -!- gvdm has joined ##crawl-dev 14:10:22 was a jo-hoke! 14:10:42 wait, so do hell effects no longer banish you? 14:11:03 correct 14:11:07 not sure how I feel about that 14:11:18 everyone's universally happy 14:11:25 Wensley: by the time you're in hell, it's mostly just an irritating 14:11:28 irritation 14:11:46 it encourages people to take their time in hell though 14:12:03 also, i'm in favor of anything that makes abyss/hell/pan feel less like one big area 14:12:13 yeah, the reason I liked the banishment in hell was because of the pressure of rushing as fast as you could 14:12:28 should make the rest of the effects more severe then 14:12:33 yes 14:12:35 elliptic: what if the lock would be only advisory? 14:12:42 we can make Hells as painful as we like 14:12:44 kilobyte: still don't like it 14:12:47 kilobyte: hm, interesting 14:12:52 perhaps not necessarily more severe, but the effects *should* get worse the longer you are there 14:12:55 there is still some pressure to rush hell, of course, but banishment was really a stronger incentive to rush than the hell effects currently are 14:13:23 if you really want to, there could be "banishment" to Vestibule 14:13:27 elliptic: it was only an incentive of "aw man, have to slog through the abyss *again*" 14:13:29 kilobyte: you mean that it would prompt you if you tried to start an AK without having seen the abyss in a previous game, say? 14:13:34 which isn't fun 14:13:39 dpeg: in that vein, how about banishment to a different hell? :P 14:13:50 it should be actually dangerous things 14:14:07 -!- eith has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:14:10 banishment to vestibule sounds too much like "mysterious force" to me 14:14:10 (: 14:14:13 elliptic: I expected kilobyte just to mean the colouring (always darkgrey before anyss death) 14:14:22 "banishment" to vestibule sounds a bit weird since it's potentially a lifesaver 14:14:30 doy: well, hell banishment was just like mysterious force 14:14:31 elliptic: I was thinking more of either setting an option in the config file (ie, well hidden) or a menu entry "harder backgrounds" (weakly hidden), until you meet the milestones 14:14:34 banishment to a different hell is sort of a cool idea... so you could move from geh:5 to coc:5 or whatever? 14:14:37 dpeg: i don't disagree there 14:14:42 monqy: was the same with abyss banishment 14:14:45 elliptic: presuming it would be random 14:14:49 dpeg: right 14:14:58 but yes 14:15:14 One thing that's pretty easy to do is increasingly bad effects in hell over time. 14:15:30 teleporting you to a different hell area seems like it could be interesting though, potentially 14:15:42 doy: not so sure 14:15:49 it'd make players take even less risks 14:16:06 dpeg: your resistances would be all wrong 14:16:07 so you might start to do dis because you think it is the easiest hell for your character, and then you get sent to a different hell partway through and you have to decide whether to start over or just do the other hell? 14:16:15 yeah, not sure how i feel about it 14:16:17 side-effects of helleportation: can't prepare well for individual hells (rC for coc, rF for geh, potion/scroll dropping if applicable) 14:16:19 elliptic: right 14:16:32 monqy: you mean actual effects 14:16:35 oh you can decide to start over 14:16:37 it could be pretty annoying of course 14:16:38 those are the whole point, not side effects 14:16:39 (: 14:16:39 then that doesn't apply 14:16:42 +1 to the term "helleportation" 14:18:02 You could draw an entourage of (thematically fitting) light weight but almost indestructible monsters as you tour a hell... the longer you take, the bigger the entourage, which will turn into something horrible on hell end. 14:18:51 this way, you can see that idling is not good... even if you don't know what those wisps are good (bad) for 14:19:29 dpeg: I like it, it's like glow just for hell. but I also like helleportation :) 14:20:02 helleportation cannot be random... there could be fitting monsters that may do that, so you can prepare/react 14:20:42 why can't it be random? 14:20:43 I like the idea that the hells are loosely connected, or that hell lords compete over fresh faces. 14:20:51 elliptic: I think it's too harsh. 14:21:01 well, that was sort of the point ;) 14:21:17 I'm imagining enemies who are sentient portals to another random hell, moving around and chasing the player 14:21:25 Wensley: yes, that can work 14:21:33 or not just another random hell, also previous layers of the current hell 14:21:38 so if you see fiery monsters in ice hell, you know the drill 14:21:57 as long as it's something you can't plan on being there 14:21:57 hmm, mightn't that be abusable? you just dive down the easiest hell, then get cross-teleported and do the last level of a different one to get the rune 14:22:07 MarvinPA: do you have a clue about using threads on Windows? 14:22:10 ais523: good point 14:22:15 ais523: yes 14:22:21 so back to the wisps :) 14:22:24 that's why I initially wanted it to be random, and also to have a chance to send you back in the current hell 14:22:30 about banishment: what if you instead got hellanished to a portal vault? 14:22:36 the wisps can be parallel to helleportation 14:22:38 you'd have to fight your way out 14:23:03 kilobyte: better: you end up halfway between the entrance and some treasure (ideally containing items you can't get any other way, which aren't all that good) 14:23:19 so you have to choose whether to fight to the treasure then back to the entrance, or just back to the entrance 14:23:51 this would lead to scumming hell effects if that treasure is any good, though 14:23:56 uh, scummable treasure is a bad idea, yeah 14:24:01 dpeg: my only concern with the wisps is the usual concern of having tons of creatures following you, especially if they're not killable or displaceable 14:24:23 Wensley: I thought they'd stay as far away as possible from you 14:24:29 at the edge of LOS 14:24:42 halo of hellwisps 14:24:55 so like wandering hell mushrooms that move away when you see them? 14:25:16 yes, hellshrooms, flying, very fast 14:26:02 so what about normal hell effects 14:26:11 normal hell effects are also great 14:26:13 hell is hell 14:26:13 those should still be made stronger i think 14:26:24 torments and 1 demons are good, paralysis not so much 14:26:43 kilobyte: the idea is that it'd be more of a trophy than anything else, so that scumming it wouldn't help your survival at all; also, it'd only show up once 14:26:46 i think paralysis is fine 14:26:50 since it's just a one-off thing 14:27:05 not like it's going to kill you unless you're already almost dead 14:27:15 ais523: not sure i see the point 14:27:24 yeah 14:27:44 and if you're afraid of killing people, we can always use Petrify 14:27:56 doy: it'd be an actually interesting choice: better survival chances vs. trophy 14:28:24 ais523: "trophy" things other than runes really aren't part of crawl at all 14:28:34 hmm 14:28:35 speaking of trophies, can we give all the hell lords a unique item? 14:28:39 I was almost going to suggest putting a rune there 14:28:44 but everyone would hate that 14:28:45 someone complained that effects which do petrification on monsters paralyze you instead: I wonder if implementing it (quite easy) would be an interesting replacement for some of current uses of paralysis 14:28:57 actually, that might make an interesting mechanic generally 14:29:15 Wensley: meh 14:29:30 Wensley: 3/5 of them already have them 14:29:39 doy: it's more of an achivement to get their weapons than their runes 14:29:42 at a random time, when in optional areas (pretty much anywhere you don't have to go, so it's very hard to scum), you suddenly get teleported into a portal vault with a rune in, and have only one chance to get it 14:29:56 Wensley: see my earlier statment to ais523 14:29:57 kilobyte: is there a reason the others don't? 14:29:58 perhaps only at times of high tension 14:30:10 Wensley: why should they? 14:30:18 ais523: very meh 14:30:35 doy: it'd get around the branch-ends problem quite neatly... 14:30:45 "the branch ends problem"? 14:30:57 i wasn't aware there was a problem 14:31:13 doy: people delaying getting runes until after they've already done the rest of the game and got really powerful 14:31:26 (the rest of the main game, rather than the extended endgame, that is) 14:31:34 doy: because a trophy is something to show for completing a challenging task, and as I said, killing the hell lords is more satisfying than simply stealing their rune, and the killers have something to show for it besides a mcguffin. 14:31:45 geez... Grinder is so harsh 14:31:45 ais523: like, uhm, Hell? 14:32:05 Wensley: the hell lord items *are* macguffins 14:32:09 not sure what your point is 14:32:18 kilobyte: I can't figure out what your reply is a reference to 14:32:27 doy: not sure I see why you're opposed to this 14:32:28 Napkin: yeah, due will hate me for repeating this, but Grinder is an uppity newcomer who should be nerfed, he's taking up the spot that rightfully belongs to Sigmund 14:32:29 i've seen people get actual use out of dispater's staff, which is quite cool 14:32:42 Wensley: "why not" is not a good argument for adding new things 14:32:50 doy: I've given you reasons 14:32:58 dispater's staff is the only one that is ever useful, yeah 14:33:05 ais523: to delaying getting runes until you're done with rest of the game 14:33:13 the other hell lord items not so much, would be good to make them a little more useful (even if only slightly) 14:33:16 kilobyte: ah, I see 14:33:22 Wensley: i don't like the concept of "trophy" items in general 14:33:23 but it happens even in three-runers 14:33:46 if you kill the hell lord, it'll show up in your morgue anyway 14:33:53 so it's not like it's even meaningful 14:34:13 should be worth points, at least 14:34:20 doy: the trophy is meaningful for the character, the morgue file is meaningful for the player 14:34:46 i have no idea what the distinction means there 14:34:58 about runes: what about goldifying them -- having them be an attribute rather than an actual item? There are problems with players not lugging them around and so on. 14:35:25 I think that hell/pan lord items are good if they are potentially useful (like dispater's staff) 14:35:43 kilobyte: would probably have to ditch the demonic rune then 14:35:43 kilobyte: I think they'd feel like less of an accomplishment if they weren't in inventory 14:35:52 doy: many people actually roleplay RPGs, and would care about something that was visible to the character, as opposed to the player 14:35:57 the character doesn't know they're in a computer game 14:36:01 other people just ignore that 14:36:23 doy: ais made the point I was trying to 14:36:38 i quite like them as actual inventory items too, although i don't have that much of a problem with making them like gold either i guess 14:36:47 doy: why? Either as an unique one or as a number, it would still make sense. Or are you concerned about übernagas hoarding runes until max carrying capacity? 14:37:19 kilobyte: yeah, right now we have an effective cap on the number of runes it's possible to carry out 14:37:30 not sure we need players going for MAXINT games in crawl d: 14:37:35 kilobyte: the only argument against gold-like runes is that currently runes reduce your inventory slots in Pan 14:37:43 kilobyte: what if we did the opposite, and gave gold weight and inventory space? :P 14:37:43 also that 14:37:51 up to 5 slots 14:37:57 well, not by very much though 14:38:13 and by that point you don't need much random loot, just a select few types of consumables 14:38:34 haranp Wed Nov 22 12:54:01 2006 +0000 Goodbye, gold dropping. We wish thee well. 14:38:48 this is ancient! 14:38:59 again, maybe I'm not envisioning this right but it seems that the runes wouldn't be very visible if they became gold-like 14:39:03 dpeg: that's just a convenience issue, isn't it, because you could just distort out of Pan every time you got a rune and go stash it? 14:39:11 you'd probably have to press a special key to see them, etc 14:39:11 doy: do we need multiples of the demonic rune? What if we made it like Abyssal? 14:39:21 yes, the reason I gave is not a very good one.... just not aware of something better 14:39:23 kilobyte: that would be fine, probably 14:39:26 although elliptic has a point with the flavour 14:39:28 i thought there needed to be multiples for players who throw all their runes in lava, or something 14:39:33 currently they are shiny objects who live in your inventory a decent amount of the time and you see them then whenever you look at the inventory 14:39:35 the only reason we even have multiple demonic runes is - yeah, what MarvinPA said 14:39:50 doy: but what if they throw the Orb in lava? 14:40:00 if that's the justification, it's not actually complete 14:40:02 they get a banner 14:40:03 or sacrifice it to Nemelex! 14:40:03 some vaults are hard to breach -- the one with eyes takes long scumming with cTele 14:40:04 then they get a cool milestone 14:40:12 !lm * type=orb.destroy s=name 14:40:13 12 milestones for * (type=orb.destroy): 1x Lazarenth, 1x Shovelmint, 1x MarvinPA, 1x reid, 1x BirdoPrey, 1x Pseudonut, 1x daftfad, 1x theglow, 1x Julia, 1x FilthyApe, 1x qwqw, 1x trucutru 14:40:15 <3 14:40:38 my first approximation would be having demonic runes not spawn if you have one already 14:42:09 seems reasonable to me 14:42:23 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 14:42:50 yeah, no issues here 14:42:54 dpeg: that was disabled a while ago 14:42:54 (: 14:42:56 actually, unique demonic rune is a totally orthogonal concept to gold-like runes 14:43:08 I don't think gold-like runes are a major concern, but they'd be a minor progression, imo. I wouldn't mind an Implementable, but I wouldn't write Urgent on the wiki page. 14:43:23 doy: but my Nemelex really wants an orb :) 14:44:12 elyvilon should accept the orb as a sacrifice, who says it isn't a weapon? 14:45:17 but yes, separating god business and orb collecting is good... still like the idea of gods' comments upon orb pickup/run 14:45:47 i still like the corruption effects during the orb run idea 14:45:56 instead of just random demon spawns 14:45:56 load-bearing orb 14:45:58 "Okawaru: Dear Elyvilon, I am surprised to see one of your weakling followers pick up the orb." 14:46:03 Wensley: yes 14:46:04 (: 14:46:12 I like it 14:46:13 doy: there's a list of good ideas on the orb page 14:46:22 many of them could go right in 14:47:31 any time you go up to a new level, the down staircases start flooding with lava >:) 14:51:23 Wensley: Angel of Red Alert? 14:52:37 (can't remember what was the level feeling for a switch flooding the level with lava... slime had "In state of Denmark, there was odor of decay.") 14:53:17 I did not know what that was without looking it up, but I was thinking something cosmetic rather than a countdown timer. could be something to consider, though :) 14:53:47 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 14:54:07 Hi! 14:55:43 hi 14:56:30 -!- valrus_ has joined ##crawl-dev 14:56:32 -!- valrus_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:56:37 -!- valrus_ has joined ##crawl-dev 15:02:31 I just <3 RNG... Evoke Berserk, Success: Fair.. and failed 7 times in a row 15:03:09 ??fair 15:03:10 fair[1/3]: No, this game isn't fair (and neither is "fair" success). But it was probably your own fault, anyway. P.S. Casting spells at Fair success means 30-50% chance to fail, which will annoy you at best or get you killed at worst. Frequently. You really want Great or better. Well, you really want excellent or better. 15:03:49 0.4^7 is pretty small, Napkin :) 15:05:22 small chance in succeeding to fail 7 times in a row? ;) 15:05:35 Napkin: have you seen Florian's email on c-r-d about web tiles prototype? He said it is completely playable. Do you think we could set up a server? 15:05:51 of course we could 15:06:12 cool 15:06:24 i'm just not too motivated at the moment ;) 15:06:25 Napkin: yes! 15:06:34 !coffee Napkin 15:06:36 * Henzell hands Napkin a mug of caffè breve, brewed by Crazy Yiuf. 15:06:38 !beer Napkin 15:06:45 !schnaps Napkin 15:06:45 Napkin: sure. Whenever you have the time and the motivation :) 15:07:30 galehar: you saw that your idea of Spellcasting vs Int etc. was familiar to me? 15:07:32 i'm moping 15:07:43 !lg Napkin 15:07:43 875. Napkin the Cutter (L5 KeGl), mangled by Grinder on D:3 on 2011-04-19, with 313 points after 3717 turns and 0:18:11. 15:08:11 dpeg: well, this idea has already been discussed. 15:08:20 I just moved CDO to a shiney new horse.. and all i got was that ipv6 is not working properly ;> 15:09:04 ah, moping about ipv6, not clumsy non-berserkers --- what's wrong, who flaked? 15:09:20 well, at least beer & schnaps & coffee :D 15:10:04 !seen kilobyte 15:10:04 I last saw kilobyte at Tue Apr 19 19:52:36 2011 UTC (17m 28s ago) saying (cant remember what was the level feeling for a switch flooding the level with lava... slime had "In state of Denmark, there was odor of decay.") on ##crawl-dev. 15:10:11 nah, nothing, just kidding 15:10:26 just haven't come around to it yet 15:11:02 galehar: you don't happen to know about pthreads on Windows, do you? 15:11:03 i wouldn't trust an inebriated server admin 15:11:23 kilobyte: sorry, no 15:11:26 -!- syllogism has quit [] 15:11:36 hehe, bhaak :) 15:11:37 * kilobyte goes for another beer :p 15:11:40 i'm quite content that my server admin lives in scandinavia, a region where alcohol is not cheap :) 15:12:07 bhaak: Trust me, we drink anough as it is. 15:12:17 kilobyte: do you have an opinion on my proposal for Ash's skill boost? 15:12:20 I haven't drunken alcohol since new year's eve ;-P 15:13:17 galehar: sorry but I'm not sure which one... there were many some time ago 15:13:19 ghallberg: :) 15:13:39 https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:god:ashenzari&#plan_for_09 15:16:03 not sure if shoehorning all spellcasters into staves is such a good idea, few people use them 15:17:39 well, it's not mandatory. They can curse a weapon or nothing. 15:17:47 bonuses for shield and armour are good 15:18:20 jewels -- non-casters have no reason to do that 15:18:45 piety gains are mostly meangingless once you max it :( 15:19:13 in 0.8 you are strongly encouraged to be fully bound all the time 15:20:27 someone suggested on the forum to cap piety with bondage. So you wouldn't be able to get the full skill boost if not fully bounded. 15:20:33 Not wanting to step on toes, but Ash could have a piety decay depending on total piety (so that you need severe bondage to keep ***** up) 15:20:46 galehar: that's a similar, and perhaps better idea 15:21:47 dpeg: early on it's hard to bind enough parts 15:22:19 03kilobyte * r104394a06c4a 10/crawl-ref/source/makefile: Don't try to set -fsigned-char, it gets overwritten anyway. 15:22:30 03kilobyte * r208e867c51b5 10/crawl-ref/source/player-equip.cc: Fix maxmp not getting reduced after butchery swap back to antimagic. 15:22:30 03kilobyte * rb6735de0c24f 10/crawl-ref/source/ (colour.cc colour.h feature.cc spl-damage.cc): Remove hard-coded masquerading of stone as rock in Zot. 15:22:31 03kilobyte * r3a3ed5df84c8 10/crawl-ref/source/acquire.cc: Don't acquire books of Minor Magic II and III. 15:23:33 it's hard to find the right curse foo scrolls 15:23:54 especially with remove curse being turned into them at random 15:24:09 also, it's annoying that it changes them a stack at a time 15:24:23 doy: not really... getting some bondage is usually not a problem 15:24:29 because that's rarely useful 15:24:38 you'd have to actually find something to wear, too 15:24:40 yeah, i might just be getting unlucky with scrolls this game 15:24:53 kilobyte: yes, that is more often the problem 15:24:56 doy: changing a stack is same as changing them one by one 15:25:06 I had a game where I cursed =hunger and =sustenance 15:25:11 kilobyte: no it isn't 15:25:11 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:25:22 if you change them one by one, you can stop once you get whichever you were looking for 15:25:33 i'd want it to give me, say, 1 curse weapon, 2 curse armour, 1 curse jewellery vs 4 curse weapon 15:25:44 because the former is almost always more useful 15:25:58 and the latter is what the interface encourages you to do 15:26:03 so it's better (and tedious) to drop remove curse scrolls one by one and then pray over them individually, usually 15:26:07 right 15:26:11 that's what i'm doing now 15:26:58 not sure what a good solution would be, though... is it too generous to let you pick what it's changed to? 15:27:16 the only gain would be being able to stop earlier... and you already know how many remove curse you want to keep 15:27:29 yes, I think it doesn't really matter much 15:27:30 no, the gain would also be getting a variety of scrolls 15:27:44 if i need a curse jewellery scrolls 15:27:45 scroll 15:27:49 and i have a stack of ?rc 15:27:56 doy: when I played, it would apply armour/weapon/jewellery randomly to the items in the ?RC pile 15:27:59 if you curse a whole stack at once it does give you a variety 15:28:02 you sure that's not the case anymore? 15:28:05 oh, huh 15:28:22 doy: (: I smell small sample size 15:28:22 the issue is just when you only want a specific curse foo scroll, i think 15:28:26 it didn't happen to me the first time i tried it, so i assumed it wasn't the case 15:28:30 might have just been bad luck 15:28:32 good to know! 15:28:33 (: 15:28:48 what MarvinPA said is still true though 15:28:56 yes, but it quite minor 15:28:57 anyway it's only a quite minor thing, but it's still a little bit annoying 15:29:00 right 15:29:01 true 15:29:05 later on, you want to conserve RC scrolls 15:31:43 what if you could spend piety to have Ash curse an item for you? 15:32:13 thought about that... I am afraid it's a bit like asking Fedhas for fruits 15:36:31 another idea would be to merge the 3 scrolls into a curse item scroll 15:36:57 I heard this fedhas and fruits thing before, what's it about? 15:37:34 galehar: would need other bad scrolls to replace them, we have few enough as it is 15:38:40 ghallberg: fruits are limited, and you need them for some Fedhas powers 15:39:10 galehar: yes, that may be good. Apart from what doy said, I'd wait with this... might merge EW scrolls at the same time. 15:39:29 Wensley: thanks! 15:39:56 dpeg: let me know if you need any clarification or have any issues 15:39:56 Ah, So it would be a perpetual loop of some kind? 15:40:39 ghallberg: yes. Fruits are a valuable resource for god powers, so you cannot turn to your god and ask for more. 15:41:01 And it's similar with cursings and Ash. Managing curse scroll is part of the god. 15:41:11 Make a lot of sense. 15:41:33 Wensley: seems good to me, although the doubly-moving hobgoblin must be coincidence. 15:41:57 it happened twice in a row for me, but yeah, probably just bad luck 15:42:09 maybe line the entire corridor with books? :P 15:42:13 hehe 15:43:09 I love book burning, so I find this an acceptable solution 15:43:16 same here 15:43:41 When I suggested it first time, everyone in the team was "meh". So jpeg suggested it a year later, and everyone was "yeah!". 15:44:37 I had this idea of little random actions your god to do (mostly for flavour, to make them less like slot machines; often tied to flavour). One of them would be "raining books" under Trog. 15:44:39 back on the skill boost topic. If I add a boundage + 2 cap to piety rank, then do we have a good start? 15:44:40 -!- stabwound has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:45:20 dpeg: how about a library branch, as a swap-out for the hall of blades? book burning galore :) 15:45:52 galehar: yes, I think so. There should be a message a la "You need to bound yourself [more]." when reaching a threshold and insufficiently bound to get to the next one. Btw, what if you lose some bondage? 15:46:19 then it starts to decay 15:46:29 ah, decay is good, yes 15:46:51 Was worried about sudden jump from **** to ** :) 15:46:53 if your bondage cap lowers beyond your current piety, ashenzari nails you to the sky until it decays to the proper amount 15:48:37 having a hard time thinking of a message to express the bondage cap 15:49:28 it might simply decay at a fast rate 15:49:34 perhaps the ***... piety meter could be modified as well when the piety cap is in effect, to something like ***.-- or ***.| 15:49:51 as a constant visual reminder 15:49:55 wouldn't penalize going unbound for just the time you need to swap armour 15:50:01 exactl 15:50:03 y 15:50:07 Wensley: nailing yourself to the sky sounds more like a useful defensive maneuver than anything else, in Crawl 15:50:51 decay will do nicely... can write "Ashenzari disapproves of your lack of bound gear." 15:51:09 what do you think of the piety meter modification? 15:51:25 will cause questions :) 15:51:42 I am happy we have the *** list on the main screen for 0.8 15:51:45 I'm just afraid that the cap will be abrupt, and the message will be lost 15:52:10 so you'll be exploring trying to gain piety without realizing the cap is in effect 15:52:20 we can print the message from time to time (just like you always get messages when gaining piety) 15:52:25 perhaps the piety meter could simply turn red as you approach the cap, much like the old XP pool? 15:53:19 -!- bmh has joined ##crawl-dev 15:53:19 -!- bmh has quit [Changing host] 15:53:19 -!- bmh has joined ##crawl-dev 15:53:21 Or just replace the Piety Gain message with "You would have gained piety but you're not bound enough" (modified for flavor) 15:53:32 Eronarn: "You switch back to your bare hands." :-) I've got tentacles 15:53:43 yeah, i know 15:53:54 it'll be in the next OP version 15:54:45 maybe "Ashenzari requires a greater commitment to bondage before granting you more power" 15:55:26 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 15:55:35 but i'm already very committed to bondage 15:55:54 Wensley: yes, something like that, just cannot use "bondage" :) 15:56:01 gotta leave that to the players 15:56:09 ghallberg: actually, this is how Cheibriados works 15:56:10 I don't think we want to spam players with message while they are searching for a curse foo scroll. This can get irritating. 15:56:13 consistency is good 15:56:43 galehar: just reduce piety in discrete steps (and then bigger chunks) and issue a line every time? 15:57:27 Some messages while it's decaying is ok, but when it's stucked at the cap maybe not, because it can last a while. 15:57:29 galehar: prompt before uncursing an item that's crucial for the current bondage/piety level? 15:57:44 galehar: yes 15:57:46 does it really need to decay, rather than just not gain? also why are we doing piety caps anyways 15:57:55 ??ashenzari[2] 15:57:56 [2/3]: this is ashenzari's new thing, an ability that completely changes every day 15:58:18 Eronarn: to encourage melee fighters to curse their jewellery even if they don't want the magic skill boost 15:59:08 we want Cheibriadites to be slow (slow for their own good), and we want Ashers to run around cursed (for their own good) 15:59:58 galehar: the old system was that they'd get more piety if they did that - if they're not spending enough piety for that to matter, that to me says that ash is giving out too much piety or ash isn't letting you spend piety fast enough 16:00:06 rather than that there should be piety caps 16:01:05 Eronarn: slowing piety gain is totally pointless if there's nothing to use it for 16:01:17 Eronarn: it just means you max it somewhat later 16:01:29 kilobyte: 'or ash isn't letting you spend piety fast enough' :P 16:01:51 galehar: what is the current cost of reskilling? 16:02:00 will it lose a * from *****? 16:02:02 kilobyte: what's the mechanism for Chei piety when you're not ponderous enough? 16:02:13 dpeg: 25. Almost one * 16:02:16 good 16:02:22 galehar: you just gain piety more slowly because you aren't killing stuff faster than you as often 16:02:23 galehar: Kill some bats. Eat some food when you aren't hungry 16:02:29 galehar: you don't get boosts, but don't lose piety 16:02:32 bmh: the latter is gone, I believe 16:02:39 tummies 16:02:54 dpeg: good! 16:03:16 also bumping reskilling cost really doesn't seem like it will help here, there is only a finite amount of reskilling one would want to do outside of gimmick characters 16:03:47 Eronarn: yes, but the point is that reskilling loses a little sighting 16:05:05 one thought would be a new scrying ability 16:05:31 scrying is basically 'see through walls' but it's not the be-all, end-all of far-seeing abilities 16:06:15 Eronarn: yes, but using the X-map would be tedious 16:06:23 *using it often, that is 16:06:43 for example: astral vision effect. you use it and become a spirit that has permascrying, is immune to everything, can walk through walls, etc. this drains piety FAST, and as you approach the point where you don't have the piety to use the ability any more, your LOS radius as a spirit shrinks 16:07:13 Eronarn: that's lifesaving :) 16:07:33 dpeg: no - no turn cost, and when it ends, you're back where you were before it happened 16:07:38 a spirit voyage, no actual movement 16:07:44 ah 16:08:16 so can only visit areas close to your position... could be interesting 16:08:33 so it lets you see stuff further than scrying, but you do it by actually moving and exploring, which is a lot more interactive than just 'show me this spot on the map 16:08:33 i like that 16:08:42 yes 16:08:48 gotta remember that 16:08:59 and it could have limitations to the movement: like cannot go through metal walls (lead!), or such 16:09:44 of course, this is also a place where we could have some cool visual effect for being in the spirit world 16:09:48 it wouldn't be an eronarn proposal without something extra thrown in to make it overcomplicated 16:09:51 (: 16:10:00 like doomrl's invuln sphere effect might work 16:10:15 yeah, that could be cool 16:10:21 (white background, black glyphs, for those who haven't played) 16:11:28 Eronarn: great idea! 16:12:00 'now go code it'? :) 16:12:01 still, it would be just information, which doesn't help you actually gain something, though 16:12:07 the ratio of "usefulness of the skill" vs "amount of code to implement it" is really low. 16:12:29 yes, the main drawback would be that it's rarely better than plain scry 16:13:02 really, it could replace plain scry 16:13:07 it's more interesting anyway 16:13:11 doy: no, plain scry is simple to use 16:13:13 and strictly a superset 16:13:19 how are slaying bonuses written on autoinscriptions again? 16:13:20 plus it works :) 16:13:25 speaking of scrying, i had the fun zot:5 strategy of digging all the way around the ending vault with scrying active, to know the monster positions of almost the entire vault in advance 16:13:28 is it dam+# or dam+ # 16:13:32 or dam +# 16:13:34 MarvinPA: <3 16:13:44 maybe more of the border should be permarock :P 16:13:47 marvin that was a good game 16:13:57 and no! why kill every interesting synergy 16:14:07 MarvinPA: was it tedious? 16:14:11 well, plus this new scrying proposal would render it unecessary :P 16:14:27 Well, at least the wall type should be randomised there. 16:14:32 it took him <2 minutes to figure out where everything was 16:14:34 in the lungs 16:14:43 well, it's quite a long way to dig. it was mainly just silliness, i don't think i actually needed to do it 16:14:50 could also make the ability not include scrying (but you can activate scrying at the same time) 16:15:12 Eronarn: taht's just more effort for the player 16:15:30 or allow information from it that can't normally be gained... e.g., if you examine a caster monster in this form, you can tell what spells it has 16:15:45 since you're seeing their 'astral impression' or whatever 16:16:12 you can get that information from outside the game though, mostly 16:16:41 actually i guess i might use it on ancient liches 16:16:45 to see which spell set they have 16:17:13 also panlords 16:17:41 it's casual-player friendly, but actually useful in optimal play too at the high end, so i think that's good 16:17:43 The idea has appeal because it avoids the shortcomings of all other far-scrying proposals. I don't think it's urgent for 0.9, as the god is complete enough to be used. If we have a good idea how to make scry-walk a tiny bit more active, it can go in later. (E.g. touching, i.e. running into, a monster might curse it somehow.) 16:17:46 for that, would be better to have that be a separate targeted ability, really 16:17:57 "scan" or whatever 16:18:04 could give more info than just spell sets 16:18:22 doy: the typical Ash approach would be to give away this information for free (like egos) at sufficient piety. 16:18:23 also, random thought: it would make ash piety really, really appealing if you could use this ability across stairs or portals 16:18:27 hp, abilities, enchantments 16:18:36 dpeg: sure, but that doesn't need to be an absolute 16:18:44 and crossing into a different level with this also makes sense as to why it can't be a passive ability 16:18:59 (you're actively sending your spirit somewhere) 16:19:04 doy: but don't want to make players x-v every monster in sight for minutes either 16:19:16 dpeg: well, they can't, if it has a piety cost 16:19:16 (: 16:19:31 make it costly enough that they only want to do it on strong monsters 16:19:56 giving the information away for free would definitely encourage examining every monster 16:20:00 yes 16:20:10 yeah, a cost sounds good 16:20:13 and spells/abilities go beyond what you can see on Ctrl-X 16:20:28 as expected, I'm against showing monster hp 16:20:51 * dpeg shudders when recalling using NH stethoscope every half-turn 16:21:01 could just show maxhp 16:21:07 or a vague range of maxhp 16:21:22 doy: that's not much use unless you know what damage you're doing 16:21:29 true 16:23:16 i think it might work at sometihng like: you gain it at 180 piety; costs 5 piety to activate it; lose .5 piety / step while it's active; activated ability costs 1 piety per use (but if you use it on something, further uses in that session cost nothing, so players don't have to write stuff down :P) 16:23:16 the really interesting bit would be reading a mind a la "This ancient lich is about to cast draining bolt and orb of destruction." 16:23:16 maybe don't end the ability at 180 piety though, and let it drain beyond that 16:23:20 in case you really want to stay in the spirit world and are willing to pay heavy piety cost for it - also a good opportunity for flavor text and such 16:23:54 it'd be used very rarely, though 16:23:59 got to sleep over it 16:24:09 does the ai work in such a way that mind-reading would even be possible? 16:24:14 letting it be used across portals/stairs would be a serious incentive to use it 16:24:20 and also quite cool 16:24:21 MarvinPA: how often do you use Scry in a game? Only at branch ends? Even less? 16:24:36 monqy: no 16:24:39 monqy: no, but I am sure it could be arranged 16:24:57 monqy: not really...ish. if it were instant, you'd be able to know what it was going to do on its next turn, if you didn't move 16:24:58 Eronarn: maybe have the piety cost be a function of distance from your actual body 16:25:06 monqy: just declare a spell from the list and when the monster decides to cast a spell, take that one 16:25:16 hmm... my last ash game was a spriggan stalker (using monster detection and passwall to stab things), but i think even then i didn't really use scrying on every branch end 16:25:24 doy: that could work, yeah (it would work better in squarelos!!) 16:25:29 (: 16:25:37 just a few vaults and zot:5, as far as i can remember 16:25:37 we should just merge squarelos already 16:25:38 MarvinPA: where did you use it? 16:26:06 doy: kilobyte is around :) 16:30:39 squarelos is merged... in erocrawl. in erocrawl, anything is possible. you can do anything at erocrawl. welcome... to erocrawl. 16:30:40 He has rhomboid allergy. 16:30:40 kilobyte isn't the only member of the devteam 16:30:40 (: 16:30:41 Must have been the square cradles in Poland :P 16:30:43 I'm with kilobyte regarding squarelos 16:30:44 i think i might have used scrying once or twice to see what a top dangerousness tier monster was, too 16:30:44 doy: yes, but we're going the way of the NH team by abstaining from action if there's no agreement 16:30:45 MarvinPA: you think it's okay? 16:30:46 NetHack is wicked, long live jpeg! 16:30:46 galehar: well, you're wrong too 16:30:46 (: 16:30:46 probably i *should* have used it more often, i definitely think it can be very useful 16:30:47 how're the skill boosts going to work now anyways 16:30:49 https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:god:ashenzari&#plan_for_09 16:30:50 my tendency is to not use active god abilities that much though (which is why i rather like ash, vehumet, etc) 16:30:51 MarvinPA: alright then (I think the same... it's an ability prone to be forgotten, in an illustrious sequence with Ely prayer and Yrdy mirror :) 16:30:52 yeah 16:30:53 MarvinPA: yes, I knew there is demand for more passive gods 16:30:54 Yred's mirror is too costly for serious use 16:30:54 yred mirror would be more useful if it weren't so costly (one time I lost at least two piety stars just by using it on mennas), but I digress 16:30:55 possibly, but that's something easy to fix: just numbers 16:30:55 monqy: well considering how powerful it is and how there's not much else to use yred piety on... 16:30:56 dpeg: the issue is that it's hard to give passive abilities reasonable piety costs 16:30:56 yred piety gain is slow though 16:30:57 yeah... you don't get much piety with Yred too since most of it goes towards gifts whether you want them or not 16:30:57 kilobyte: go ahead, but I'd advise to be conservative, Yrdy mirror can kill strong opposition 16:30:58 dpeg: I don't have a plan there :( 16:30:58 kilobyte: make gifts not do that? :) 16:30:59 it would require more thinking... 16:30:59 let me paste something from a discussion with MarvinPA: 16:31:00 Bottom line: Repair J's stat random walk. Let E's pacified monsters swap places with you. Better autotravel for divine allies. Think about Y's gifts. Think about F's spores. C ponderous to work equally for all species. 16:31:01 that was with me? :P 16:31:01 and I'm really trying to comprehend the vault cache code, it needs to be done for 0.8 quite badly 16:31:09 oops, MarvinPA <--> elliptic, apologies to both, you rock anyway :) 16:31:11 heh 16:31:27 remove spores, replace them with more variety in plant monsters :( 16:31:36 -!- ais523 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:31:39 -!- daftfad has joined ##crawl-dev 16:31:58 Has anyone ever used corpsed as weapons with Fedhas? It's a bit clumsy, but you can keep them, throw them and sporify then. 16:32:47 i think i used them a little on v:8, for a bit of extra firepower from the corpses my oklobs created 16:33:03 good 16:33:05 dpeg: i haven't done it with throwing but i have done it with luring stuff over them 16:33:29 it basically turns corpses into explosions 16:33:42 cannot go wrong with explosions 16:33:43 for some reason a plant god has this ability instead of a necromancy god 16:34:19 dpeg: did you already hear from jpeg about her first days at the job? 16:34:42 bhaak: no. I did mail her, of course. Hope she is doing fine. 16:34:59 it better be a good job to have a non-compete like that 16:36:40 so she didn't even have time to respond? 16:37:20 didn't want to 16:38:51 -!- daftfad has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:40:58 fr: tomb:3 should only have escape hatches in and out 16:41:05 stair dancing is cheap 16:41:06 (: 16:41:26 that's mean! 16:41:32 no, good idea 16:41:39 you have a finite number of tries 16:41:51 tomb is a pretty bad offender in terms of stair dancing, yeah 16:42:17 mummified elephants 16:42:24 heh 16:42:57 can be generous: 9 hatches or so 16:43:10 dpeg: hatches != shafts 16:43:16 but shafts would be good too 16:43:16 (: 16:43:26 hatches don'T go away after use? 16:43:33 that's shafts 16:44:07 if you want to be really cruel: escape hatch entrance only, plopping you where you get in now 16:44:24 exit behind the rune area 16:44:33 i don't think we need to be *that* cruel 16:44:33 wouldn't be doable for most chars 16:44:34 (: 16:44:34 nah, better to have a finite number of tries 16:44:45 there should be some way to run away if necessary 16:44:47 hey, it'd totally be doable with projected noise! 16:44:50 would only lead to random teleport 16:44:51 and that's only a L2 spell! 16:45:36 I'd say every single stairs in Tomb are a stair dancing fest 16:46:20 Tomb:3 < stairs can have a chance of 10% of crumbling away with use 16:46:41 "These stairs are old and brittle, it seems they have been used so much they might break any moment." 16:48:20 03galehar * r342dd183ba5c 10/crawl-ref/settings/menu_colours.txt: Fix pattern for branded weapon colouring (#3831). 16:49:05 when the last upstairs crumble and your stuck down there, the branch has owned its name. 16:49:13 no, cannot happen 16:49:23 you can get shut out, but not shut in 16:49:26 -!- bmh has quit [Quit: bmh] 16:51:23 I'd rather rethink the entrance room's design... if entering, killing one then leaving is the only way, something is amiss 16:52:47 as in: way less opposition, harder to move around 16:53:39 huge numbers but only 1-3 greaters at a time is already used, by the horseshoe corridor on Tomb:1 after you come from Tomb:2 16:53:57 what about, for example, a corridor full of Zot traps? 16:54:16 you'd have to blink past or suck them up 16:55:08 hmm.. guys? 16:55:21 yes, Napkin? 16:56:09 the way animate skeleton works now (raising a skeleton and leaving chunks behind, without the need to wait for something to skeletatize) is great :) 16:56:16 kilobyte: yes, could work. But as long as the finite tries mechanic is only used once, it'd be fine. I would like it eventually special branches have special twists, much like Slime has now. 16:56:31 but.. is there anything that can be done about automatic pickup of the chunks then? 16:57:06 of those chunks, at least? it's a bit cumbersome to have to drop chunks after every 5 monsters 16:57:17 Napkin: should be possible, now that you say it. Are secondary chunks (like from disintegration or OoD) marked in some way? 16:57:46 dpeg: it is already used 4 times, in Pan 16:57:55 I think people are more likely to want to pick up the chunks than not, though 16:58:26 what if we made them auto-drop rotting/oldest ones? 16:58:27 napkin: do you know about the autopickup_no_burden option (might not be called exactly that)? 16:58:43 yes, i do, elliptic 16:58:51 kilobyte: hm, I see. But it'd be still different. Anyway :) 16:59:35 and, the most problematic are the poisonous chunks 16:59:53 well, problematic is overstatet 16:59:56 *d 17:00:07 it's just a bit annoying 17:01:08 elliptic: autopickup_no_burden then would not pickup anything else either 17:01:44 well, it would prompt you... you'd still have to drop chunks sometimes, but the option does help 17:02:00 I'm in the habit of chopping up anything edible anyway though 17:02:08 i rather have the problem of using too many slots, not weight, elliptic 17:02:09 even if I already have lots of chunks in inventory 17:02:16 ah, I see 17:02:33 elliptic: not a bad idea, since old chunks are old 17:02:48 what dpeg suggested would be awesome 17:03:01 Napkin: huh? 17:03:08 too bad dropping those old ones is tedious 17:03:11 and maybe also check for rP before picking up poisonous chunks 17:03:12 maybe d& should also drop all your chunks keeping just the 2 freshest ones. 17:03:23 galehar: +1 17:03:25 kilobyte: oh, your suggestion earlier was that autopickup would autodrop rotting chunks whenever it picks up something, or some such? 17:03:37 dpeg: the idea of "secondary chunks" from ood, eg 17:03:52 ah, so that options can reference them 17:04:24 Haran promised an in-game options editor :) (I'm not the one to blame him, I have promised a lot more and flaked.) 17:04:50 But en/disabling autopickup from the \ list could be reasonably easy (both code and in game) 17:06:06 elliptic: yeah... or at least if the new thing would burden you 17:06:45 yeah, I guess you wouldn't really want it dropping rotting chunks all the time because of stuff like sublimation of blood and simulacrum 17:06:49 if you're not a Tr, HO, Og or Gh there's no reason to carry rotten chunks anyway 17:06:58 yeah 17:07:06 and those two spells 17:07:38 should do Vintermann's food reform first 17:07:40 dropping useless chunks whenever autopickup wants to pick up something that would burden you or cause you to be using 53 slots could work 17:07:42 hi 17:07:46 Hi! 17:07:54 moin due 17:09:36 oh awesome, new poisonous/freezing cloud targeting 17:09:45 <3 17:11:06 there is new targeting? does it show the squares that will be affected or something? 17:11:58 that's randomized, so I guess it wouldn't be able to do exactly that... maybe the squares that might be affected? 17:17:05 yeah, like firestorm does 17:17:24 shows which will definitely be affected, and then which will possibly be affected in a different colour 17:19:21 it looks ugly in the open, but that's because it's how probabilities go 17:20:06 hmm.. also, is there something broken with the way the next ranged weapon is chosen? 17:20:36 if we care about looks, we might change the number of affected squares from current 8..10 17:20:46 Napkin: as in, quiver? 17:21:15 i have fire_order = launcher, return and then fire_order += rock / javelin / spear / dart / stone / net 17:21:20 yes, quiver, kilobyte 17:21:56 now i have a spear at s and a spear at t - after throwing the "s"-spear it switches to my darts on "o" 17:22:37 kilobyte: I haven't seen the cloud view, but I assume the problem is that 10? could nerf cloud spells by making them 7-9, they could handle such a nerf 17:22:43 i had some similar problem previously, where is prefered to switch down to stones, instead of up to my darts (up/down in alphabetic order, i mean) 17:23:22 or exactly 9 for the best view but that would be a buff 17:23:44 or they could have a bigger variance 17:24:23 03galehar * r9a4242c36111 10/crawl-ref/source/misc.cc: Monsters which can use items are never considered safe if they have LoF. 17:28:31 fire_order ignored? (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3837) by Napkin 17:31:07 kilobyte: that exploit by nht is ingenious... how do players come up with something like this? 17:34:23 dpeg: well, we're a game that attracts smart players... 17:34:35 Which exploit? 17:34:36 mischievous ones, too :) 17:34:49 * due goes to look. 17:34:55 due: can walk around berserk forever using x 17:35:03 ... 17:35:40 that's just *naughty*. 17:35:51 my words 17:35:52 even better was adding every single monster individually into the options file to ignore interrupting travel, so that it works with monsters in view too :P 17:36:14 kilobyte: you have an idea how to stop the madness? 17:36:25 dpeg: pushed already 17:36:30 awesome 17:37:48 I thought it will be a trickier fix, so I marked it as "block" instead of fixing outright. 17:38:18 03kilobyte * r9492bd9643c1 10/crawl-ref/source/ (hiscores.h ouch.cc): Make sure death milestones are one line. 17:38:19 That will obviously need to go into 0.8 17:38:29 03kilobyte * rfb8903581522 10/crawl-ref/source/main.cc: Fix auto actions (like travel) not applying berserk penalties. 17:38:49 that exploit has been around for a few versions, even 17:38:56 I kept forgetting to BR it :P 17:38:57 heh, cool 17:39:17 and I keep forgetting to exploit it when playing Troggies :p 17:39:19 I never bothered with the rc magic that nht did, though 17:39:33 just used it to make berserk last longer with no monsters in sight 17:39:47 (for running away from stuff) 17:39:59 oh hm, #3200 is another exploit that's gone forgotten for a while 17:40:03 yeah, it's pretty useful, especially if you can reach stairs 17:40:48 i'm not sure what the ideal desired behaviour for hatches/shafts should be, but it's abusable the way it works now, at least 17:41:17 elliptic: you actually abused it? 17:41:18 making shafts take you to a random square on the level would be sufficient to stop the abuse 17:41:26 * dpeg doubts elliptic's integrity :) 17:42:02 dpeg: hey, often it was accidental :P 17:42:16 yeah, i think that is how shafts worked at one point in the past, too? not certain though 17:42:22 "often"! -- words cannot express my disgust :) 17:42:25 -!- bhaak has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:42:35 the only way to avoid the abuse is to move manually while berserk when you want to run to the stairs 17:42:40 travel relies on hatches leading to the same place, but it doesn't have to be known before you use them the first time 17:42:48 greensnark had some reason to use what he did (I think digging should not affect the spot?) 17:42:50 and I was too lazy to do that even once I realized that it was bugged 17:43:11 so yeah, guilty :) 17:43:57 kilobyte: hatches aren't really abusable because you can't create them though 17:44:38 but you could know whereabouts a v:7 or zot:4 shaft will land you 17:44:52 yeah 17:45:09 though my last game actually took a hatch into the orb chamber accidentally... I didn't expect it at all 17:45:20 I had one of those by accident 17:45:21 so it isn't so trivial to guess these things 17:45:22 in 0.5 or so 17:45:28 hatches take you to a fixed location because it's abusable otherwise 17:45:47 doy: it needs to be a randomly chosen fixed location ratehr than a deterministic fixed location, though. 17:45:52 * Napkin grumps at crawl and heads out * 17:45:53 o/ 17:45:57 due: sure, that's fine 17:46:02 i don't think that's a big issue though 17:46:47 wtf, fuck AT&T 17:46:48 we could just make branch-end hatches place you randomly near an upstair 17:46:59 well either way, the main issue is for shafts 17:47:01 i'm going to blacklist their users soon 17:47:01 why would we d that 17:47:10 since you can create those 17:47:15 well, shafts then 17:47:32 Napkin: it's a massive ISP 17:47:35 yeah, randomizing shaft location would be fine 17:47:41 Napkin: what do those bastards do? 17:47:50 Okay, time to go to work 17:47:51 bye 17:48:00 just randomizing shafts would be sufficient 17:48:02 bie! 17:48:21 elliptic: it's more pressing, yeah 17:48:30 I wouldn't dismiss hatch abuse, though 17:49:16 yeah, hatch abuse is something that is only possible randomly in a fairly small fraction of all games but it should still be fixed at some point 17:51:49 can we just have both of them pick a (pseudo)random fixed location, rather than the easily calculated fixed location, and leave it at that? 17:51:53 would that be sufficient? 17:53:09 sounds fine 17:53:31 doy: this is what I meant... easiest to do this using a hash of the hatch's position and some random seed 17:53:39 right 17:53:39 553 5.3.0 nlpi167 DNSBL:ATTRBL 521< 46.4.68.79 >_is_blocked.__For_information_see_http://att.net/blocks 17:53:45 same way we do trees, basically 17:54:42 kilobyte: they want a name and phone number, before they allow to send emails.. every time I switch ip the fuckers need you to register. 17:55:01 okok, not getting angry anymore.. off to bed o/ 17:55:28 send emails to people on AT&T? 17:55:29 i need to register to _them_, because some of _their_ customer wants something 17:55:35 bastards 17:55:39 idiots 17:55:47 it is no one's but their fault 17:55:55 what do their customers want? 17:56:05 registered to mantis 17:57:16 nights! 17:57:21 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:58:49 dito 17:58:51 oh, did cdo get on some sort of spam blacklist or something? 17:59:28 no, but at&t just did 17:59:33 o/ 18:09:30 -!- gvdm has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:09:50 -!- galehar has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:14:39 kilobyte: cloud spells could seriously use being power-dependent :P 18:31:25 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:31:49 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 18:31:56 Evening 18:33:22 can ifdef DEBUG_DIAGNOSTICS mprfs be safely replaced with dprfs? 18:38:38 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 18:43:53 Level with dozens of hatches. (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3838) by elliptic 18:47:31 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:02:26 the cause fear spell should really replicate the effect of monster cause fear 19:03:01 'things can't approach you for a duration' is a lot more interesting than 'things run away' (the latter is still good as a scroll, though) 19:03:54 may also be worthwhile to make cause fear only affect something's enemies 19:04:52 that would make it less spammy, at least 19:05:10 unless that was already fixed 19:05:55 it'd also make it into a buff! which hexes needs more of 19:06:22 03MarvinPA * ra9118d092493 10/crawl-ref/source/book-data.h: Change Translocation book contents slightly 19:06:33 03MarvinPA * r53d61141955b 10/crawl-ref/source/decks.cc: Adjust Nemelex's "disappointed" message, only use it for targetless destruction cards 19:06:33 03MarvinPA * rebec7d1540c4 10/crawl-ref/source/food.cc: Adjust pizza messages 19:06:34 03MarvinPA * re41c3c7b6c2b 10/crawl-ref/ (7 files in 4 dirs): No more staff monks 19:06:35 03MarvinPA * r3f4ca3dc1040 10/crawl-ref/source/ (dat/descript/backgrounds.txt ng-setup.cc): Start Artificers with quarterstaves, instead 19:06:39 if it had that + rmsl/dmsl were moved into hexes then it'd have a pretty decent range of buffs actually 19:07:22 or maybe even just dmsl + rename it + make it actually deflect attacks to hit surrounding creatures 19:11:33 what'd you change with the tloc book, MarvinPA? 19:13:07 moved recall and teleport self into the book of the warp, and put passage of golubria into spatial tloc 19:13:20 spatial tloc is the warper starting book? 19:13:29 it might actually get some use if it's not competing with cblink 19:13:30 yeah 19:14:07 that'll be quite powerful then :P 19:14:52 we should cut PP in its current form by the way, make it a buff spell that applies to all shots you fire in a period 19:15:07 PP? 19:15:07 oh 19:15:18 yeah, that'd be an improvement probably 19:15:20 i'm not sure anyone uses it except super early on with blowguns against ogres 19:15:23 i've never really bothered using it 19:16:37 ??corpse slap 19:16:37 corpse slap[1/1]: The act of Portal Projectiling a corpse just before an enemy, then Corpse Rotting it. For bonus points, corpse slapping doesn't wake up sleeping enemies! 19:17:09 oh i played an ogne using portal projectile and corpse rot and bone shards once 19:17:11 try with fedhas spores. 19:17:13 mmm 19:17:13 (it was horrible) 19:17:21 (rip bone shards) 19:17:28 I tried corpse slapping once. it was highly inconvenient. 19:17:30 one thing that i thought would be cool is a double-sided portal spell, where it's a reflect-branded shield and also lets you do PP 19:17:41 dropping the corpses and kiting stuff over them is far more fun 19:17:51 by which I mean far less unfun 19:17:52 except it might make tloc too good (!?) with phase shift 19:18:49 i think tloc could definitely do with some more fun stuff like that 19:19:04 (ps, make phase shift +EV be based on tloc skill, something like 4 + tloc/5 i.e., 6 when you can currently cast it, max of 9) 19:19:25 when you can start casting it, i mean 19:20:13 tloc needs the gravity shift spells 19:20:13 more things need to be spell power based 19:20:33 doy: yeah, that'd be a reasonable goal to get in for .9 19:20:42 it's kind of weird how some things respect spell power and others check spell skills. 19:21:05 yeah 19:21:05 (and then the power bar can be misleading in that respect) 19:21:22 that's mostly just to make multi-school spells more interesting? 19:22:08 doy: also it makes some spells more useful for hybrid-y types who won't have great power even if they raise their school a lot 19:22:53 i keep going on about making more charms use spell power (for effectiveness instead of just duration), would definitely be cool to look at that too 19:22:56 i think flat level is fine for effect, as long as power still matters for at least duration 19:23:17 and it makes it worse for hybridy types who raise their general school (e.g. charms for ozo's armour) instead of the special one (e.g. ice) 19:23:29 MarvinPA: rmsl is a prime candidate for something like that 19:23:40 though, move it to hex :P 19:23:49 (or just dmsl, but one of them at least) 19:24:19 both, probably, although i never bother with dmsl 19:24:46 well, having them in different schools could be neat: rmsl = protection from missiles, charm; dmsl = missiles hit other things instead of you, hex 19:25:05 having all the hex buffs be things mainly used for hurting people would be pretty cool 19:50:09 http://paste.pound-python.org/show/5455/ 19:50:17 yay! 19:50:44 next step is to use skill values to determine spellpower/hunger cost, and use resistance data to determine how much damage spells deal to the player 19:50:58 and finally use weapon/armour data to determine possible to-hit values as well as damage 19:51:33 if anybody else is interested in this, please try it out on a few player dumps and let me know if any of the key/value pairs are messed up 19:52:08 I'm also keen on getting rid of any unnecessary lines so if I could do anything that this script does more efficiently, let me know! 19:53:37 also I would be happy to take suggestions on any other hidden/derived stats I should attempt to calculate with this tool 19:56:28 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:01:11 huh, weird 20:01:30 in trunk, Leda's (L4) shows up after Iron Shot (L6) in book of the earth 20:06:25 effo: do i need to edit the file to change which morgue it looks at? 20:09:31 -!- gvdm has joined ##crawl-dev 20:10:11 wow Enchantments is a terrible book post-split 20:10:18 it was bad before now it makes no sense at all 20:11:00 anyway...it gets stuck reading mine and then leaks like crazy 20:11:36 upsy can you link to your morgue 20:11:47 http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/upsy/upsy.txt 20:12:02 ah 20:12:11 (no weapon) I didn't include that possibility in the regexp 20:12:38 marvin put necro recall back thanks 20:12:39 if you compare that line to marvinPA's dump: http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/MarvinPA/MarvinPA.txt 20:13:02 that must be a .9 change 20:13:18 Unarmed instead of (no weapon) 20:13:28 yes 20:13:35 oh right 20:14:15 OG17: i already did 20:14:24 hidden in the tloc book changes 20:14:45 !lg . deie 20:14:45 11. upsy the Frost Mage (L11 DEIE), worshipper of Kikubaaqudgha, slain by a six-headed hydra on Lair:3 on 2011-04-08, with 14960 points after 18601 turns and 1:13:12. 20:15:07 what game does that page even show? 20:15:18 oh, last dump 20:16:04 oh 20:16:05 thanks 20:16:06 MarvinPA: switch lbolt in air and airstrike in sky, that way both books have a good conj/air and a good air spell 20:16:26 airstrike is an insane starting spell 20:16:43 nah 20:16:53 oh it also doesn't work if a player has no god 20:16:58 glad I'm finding this stuff out early 20:17:35 single school smite-targeted irresistable solid damage 20:18:16 checks AC, hugely variable damage 20:18:32 it's imb but better and you'll notice imb isn't handed out in starting books either 20:18:55 everything checks ac with hugely variable damage 20:22:29 http://paste.pound-python.org/show/5457/ 20:22:33 works with upsy's dump now 20:23:07 I need to add a way to make sure stuff like "orc leather armour" "elven leather armour" etc doesn't return 0 for base ac 20:23:26 probably will just add the whole string to the regex that checks it 20:24:07 I think the main issue with the script is that if, for some reason, the regex doesn't entirely match, it just leaks forever 20:24:20 without erroring or anything 20:25:05 yes 20:25:19 well, my main issue before that was having to install python 3 20:25:25 wtf 20:25:25 ha! 20:25:28 why are you using python 3? 20:25:33 do not do that 20:25:42 that's a pretty good reason lol 20:25:57 python 3 is nowhere near mature enough for production use, imo. 20:26:03 third party libraries are rubbish with it 20:26:10 the I/O system in the C API back end is *horrendous* 20:26:11 that's gonna cost me a lot of money when I go to market this :/ 20:26:35 "market this"? 20:26:58 I'm using it because it's the newest version and I'm making this script to help me learn the language 20:26:59 OG17: imb does significatly more damage, and airstrike is significantly more variable 20:27:19 I'm not trying to choose the optimal language to make this simple-ass script 20:27:29 effo: you are not listening to me. 20:27:42 effo: python 2.7 is the current stable release of python. python 3.2 is a completely different *language* altogether. 20:27:45 yes but airstrike is still ridiculously good as an ae 20:28:31 the part I don't understand is how that will negatively affect me in between now and the point in time at which I finish writing this 20:29:24 effo: a) python 3 is not backwards compatible with python 2, b) most modern *NIX systems ship with python 2.X. 20:29:31 less people will be able to use it 20:29:34 "better" was probably an overstatement 20:29:45 anyway, your script 20:30:32 airstrike does 8-40 damage, averaging around 24, at spell power 100 20:31:04 yeah airstrike whiffs totally blow 20:31:20 doing 0 damage to anything that is wearing clothes is annoying sometimes 20:31:35 "yay powergamers!" 20:31:51 right, and then reduced by ac 20:31:51 holy crap 20:31:59 I was waiting for something big and epic 20:32:05 not particularly overpowered 20:32:08 after a sentence fragment and 2 minutes 20:32:41 it's still too good for a starting spell 20:33:25 and it was never used as rarely as lightning bolt used to be 20:36:10 -!- upsy has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:38:21 -!- effo has left ##crawl-dev 20:46:36 pow 37 airstrike: 3, 5, 0, 2, 0, 0 20:46:36 pow 37 imb: 7, 7, 9, 23, 12, 14 20:46:37 pow 37 lbolt: 4, 5, 5, 12, 8, 6 20:46:44 OG17: full of shit, as, usual 20:47:18 lightning bolt used to be used rarely because it woke up the entire level and got you killed 20:49:22 (airstrike is actually less average damage than stone arrow, truefax) 20:50:39 i actually wonder why this formula is even anything like what it is, it's horrible 20:50:56 also it doesn't have a power cap for some reason 20:50:59 yeah, the airstrike formula is ridiculous 20:52:23 new formula: power cap 50, 1d(8+(pow/2)) 20:53:23 stone arrow was buffed, also what are you shooting at 20:54:32 if lightning bolt is more attractive than airstrike now then sure I'm wrong but if not the current arrangement should stay, it gives people more incentive to use lightning and they can anticipate airstrike 20:55:06 airstrike at power 37 does 8-15 damage before ac reduction 20:55:12 far as I know airstrike isn't much of a question when you have a ton of air skill, lightning bolt less so 20:55:17 what's power 37 anyway 20:55:17 well, it can go a bit higher 20:55:23 but on average 20:55:33 or more so or something 20:56:22 the point is, airstrike is not very powerful 20:56:29 power 37 is the power i got by wizmoding up to skill 10 in everything 20:56:48 also this was against a statute 20:56:50 er, statue 20:56:52 @??statue 20:56:52 statue (158) | Speed: 10 | HD: 8 | Health: 70 | AC/EV: 12/1 | Damage: 20 | Flags: 11non-living | Res: 13magic(immune), 05fire, 02cold, 10elec, 03poison, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | XP: 561. 20:56:57 so it even had relec 20:57:07 the only question is if people prefer it to lightning bolt 20:57:13 no 20:57:17 no that is not the only question 20:57:30 it is if the suggestion is to swap the two 20:57:46 what people prefer has nothing to do with these decisions 20:58:01 yeah, this is a book composition question 20:58:09 I don't see why not, it gives people a reason to use the less prefered spell 20:58:11 i'm not sure what this argument is even about but i think lightning bolt is fine as-is in the AE book 20:58:20 glad that's settled :| 20:58:26 MarvinPA: it's better than it was but airstrike would make it even better 20:59:03 also don't think a caster that starts with swiftness should have a fullscreen spell that can damage everything 20:59:12 low damage makes it worse, it's asking people to kite 20:59:30 what 20:59:46 swiftness could probably go from the starting AE book, imho. 20:59:59 lightning bolt is a fullscreen spell that can damage everything, unless you mean something else by that? 21:00:05 doy: so is shock 21:00:06 swiftness works real well with shock 21:00:28 shock: probably more damage than airstrike except at very low or very high power 21:00:32 lightning isn't irresistable and works better with positioning 21:00:43 isn't bolt bouncing gone? 21:00:50 I hope not 21:00:56 no, for some reason people think it's worth keeping 21:01:04 probably the same people who think squarelos is bad 21:01:24 because having two spells that consider layout is two too many 21:01:27 Eronarn: actually, I'm now putting myself in the "don't care about squarelos" box -- after playing with it on CAO for ages and not noticing 21:01:44 all according to keikaku 21:01:53 i think bolt bouncing is kinda scummy/spoiler-y 21:02:11 i think the concept of bolt bouncing is good 21:02:17 it should be simplified but the idea is good 21:02:19 it just really needs to work better 21:02:23 yeah 21:02:26 not sure entirely what that means, but 21:02:41 "aim at walls for maximum effect" is dumb 21:02:45 showing the path when targeting would be nice 21:02:51 due: i came up with this idea for bolt bouncing: shock/lightning bolt explode into a shower of sparks when they hit an obstacle, so they're a beam like they are now except instead of bouncing they have a fireball-sized explosion of minor damage at the end 21:02:53 I don't mind that at all 21:03:05 that's really just pasting fireball onto a bolt 21:03:20 showing path when targetting and guaranteeing a minimum of two bounces (and a maximum) would... actually fix all my issues with it 21:03:38 not that fireball isn't used that much but I don't see why you'd lose one of the few spell behavior types in the game for it 21:03:41 (scummy=it doesn't work all th etime but it's worth doing it over and over again for the instances where it does work; spoilery=people don't realise -- if the interface demonstrates it, that would fix it) 21:03:45 (is used) 21:03:58 OG17: because it's not one i think is worth keeping why are you having a hard time understanding that :| 21:04:06 bouncing works every time if you set it up consistently 21:04:44 I get that but I think it's worth keeping 21:04:48 and I'm not eronarn 21:05:13 i think it's worth keeping in a modified form 21:05:25 due: modified form: bolt of inaccuracy only 21:05:29 it bounces because it misses hitting the wall 21:08:05 what? 21:08:09 well 21:08:15 that's a cool idea but how does it help any? 21:08:26 it gets bolt bouncing off of shock/lightning bolt :D 21:08:39 what if you carry walls around 21:09:43 one implicit bouncing option: lightning grounds if it can't move to a square it hasn't been to yet; lightning that hits a wall changes direction preferentially along an angle and electrifies the tile it just came from 21:11:07 are you saying it snakes down a direction or what 21:11:14 this is much too simple for me to understand 21:11:26 the extra damage would come not from bouncing through something, but from landing a bounce next to it 21:11:34 regardless of where that bounce then moved on to 21:12:47 so if you're like: @..O# and fire straight ahead it hits the ogre, then hits the wall, which electrifies the ogre's square; but it has to now move either north or south of the ogre 21:12:53 and doesn't zoom back and hit you 21:13:00 I'd really want to keep positioning more restricted than "next to a wall" 21:13:16 though maybe this would be good for chain lightning 21:15:12 don't like how chain lit's best used like it was crystal spear, and nikola one-shotting people isn't great either 21:15:59 i think next to a wall is fine, the arrangements needed for current bouncing are weird/scummy anyways 21:16:04 it'd probably need something else though, maybe a fireballish explosion every time it hits a wall 21:17:13 "next to a wall" is like bolt of lrd in concept and fireball in practice 21:18:10 nothing wrong with bolt of LRD and it's not like fireball in practice since fireball actually works best when there aren't walls around 21:18:31 I mean it's fireball that only explodes when it hits a wall 21:18:50 this sounds like a fine spell to me 21:18:53 which is okay but bouncing is a lot more distinct 21:19:20 distinct is good in the abstract but bouncing's distinction comes with bad side effects 21:19:42 I think it'd be fine if bouncing was more predictable 21:19:45 favors spoilers, annoying interface, spell is balanced around you using it for bouncing, monsters using it against you getting bouncing, etc. 21:19:56 also how often do you not have a wall around 21:20:22 If bouncing was cleaned up monsters would be fine 21:20:40 you often have a wall in LOS but that's not the same thing as having a wall you can usefully cast at 21:20:54 it's not exactly hard to set up 21:21:02 it... shouldn't be hard to set up 21:21:08 it's bad if it's hard to set up 21:21:11 it's not 21:21:29 meaning it's approaching irrelevance 21:21:40 we shouldn't have spells where the normal, intended use of the spell requires a ton of fiddling 21:21:47 'preferentially fire at stuff next to walls': good 21:22:12 'preferentially run around until you find a corridor exit': bad 21:23:05 (oh yeah, one thing that would be nice with bolts not traveling to squares they've been through already: you wouldn't be able to hit yourself like @..O# in most cases so it wouldn't prompt you) 21:23:13 I don't think so, position-dependent spells don't mean anything when they mindlessly work in the majority of layouts 21:24:26 bouncing being ideal in specific setups is a good thing, it makes the player constantly keep that in mind when using the spell 21:24:30 which you don't like yes 21:25:54 a) they don't 'mindlessly work', especially when you consider being able to bounce multiple times b) likewise this will be ideal in certain circumstances, just the circumstances are a lot less annoying to make use of 21:26:17 the circumstance is "a wall" 21:26:47 no, i'm talking about stuff like bouncing it and hitting for multiple explosions against different groups 21:26:54 "constantly keep that in mind when using the spell" or "constantly try to forcibly create the ideal setup before casting, every time" 21:27:19 kind of like how with a fireball you usually will get 3 or so except if you're lucky you can actually hit up to 8 21:27:21 it's the same thing, yes 21:27:51 players wanting to manipulate positioning in their favor is a good thing 21:28:20 the current setup is a little annoying but I don't think setup is innately bad 21:29:10 i think it depends on whether it's your main spell or not 21:29:11 setup will still exist if it's changed to what i described (for any of the possibilities i described) 21:29:14 setting up multiple hits would be a lot more finicky than current bouncing 21:29:25 I've enjoyed using bouncing spells, at least 21:29:37 yes but also something you'd want to use a lot less since it requires you to have a ton of enemies on screen to even be possible 21:30:03 then you're encouraging people to round up a bunch of monsters 21:30:31 though in practice you'd probably just cast a bunch of times instead 21:30:45 if only there were some kind of spell that is good against a bunch of monsters 21:30:56 oh wait it's lightning bolt without any gimmicky tricks because it hits an entire corridor 21:30:56 at least rounding up monsters involves some kind of threat 21:30:57 a bunch of monsters... next to a wall 21:31:29 I don't see a problem with a spell being favored in some situations rather than others. Just because you can't use the same spell at all times doesn't make it bad. 21:31:32 if by 'a bunch' you mean 3 21:31:47 Wensley: nobody has a problem with that, stop listening to what OG17 says 21:31:55 when did I ever say that 21:32:06 you're using the spell every turn as far as I care 21:32:12 every cast, rather 21:32:50 or maybe I misread 21:33:08 I'm not saying you'd be using another spell to fill in the gaps, at least 21:34:25 I don't like the randomness of if this would bounce north or south either 21:34:45 if it was chain lit could afford to do both though 21:34:52 it could 21:35:50 So wait, the original argument was over putting Airstrike in the starting AE book. Which spell would it be replacing? 21:35:59 bolt 21:36:12 ??book of air 21:36:13 book of air[1/1]: Spells: Shock, Swiftness, Repel Missiles, Levitation, Mephitic Cloud, Static Discharge. Air Elementalist starting spellbook. 21:36:16 is this outdated? 21:36:39 it has lightning bolt and no meph 21:36:45 in trunk 21:37:21 static discharge is level 3 right 21:37:29 I think so 21:37:29 yes 21:37:33 it is now anyways 21:38:24 OG17: i think the randomness would actually be interesting, it'd only come up to a degree proportional to the angle you fired at the wall presumably 21:38:43 or it could just ground out when fired head on if everyone really hates it 21:39:13 I'm liking this for chain lit where it just travels both ways down a wall and explodes whenever it hits something 21:39:22 and keeps travelling 21:39:48 have it fizzle out if it keeps going after a while obviously 21:39:49 -!- Twilight-1 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:40:12 -!- Twilight-1 has joined ##crawl-dev 21:40:12 this wasn't the question but whatever 21:40:29 yeah, it'd be fun with chain lightning 21:40:36 especially if it showed you where the bolts are going 21:40:38 lines everywhere 21:41:27 what was the word you meant with "proportional," I can't think of it and it's annoying 21:41:30 perpendicular 21:41:42 Is the biggest issue with Lightning Bolt the self-damage? 21:41:50 or maybe that's not what you meant 21:42:11 it's noisy and resisted by a lot 21:42:18 and better with bouncing 21:42:41 it's easy enough not to hit yourself 21:43:00 i meant proportional, like if you fire dead on it goes randomly 100% of the time, if you fire at 45 degree or less angle it goes randomly none of the time 21:43:11 so it's only random at right angles 21:43:25 would be better, I mean 21:44:06 I still don't like that though, people tend to be at right angles to things 21:44:09 i dunno i'd have to see how it feels in play, i could see randomness working 21:44:11 like: 21:44:19 @.... 21:44:23 ....# 21:44:45 firing at the wall in this not always going southwest but sometimes northwest 21:45:31 wouldn't it be traveling east or south along the wall 21:45:39 if it's totally random, but then totally deterministic, you end up with weird cases like wanting to fire through a creature but at the wall north of it 21:45:44 and that would make a huge difference 21:46:06 I thought you got rid of finicky-angle bouncing, guess not 21:46:12 better if it sticks to walls 21:46:38 Crawl could automagically compute the optimal square from your current location at which to fire the spell in order to hit the most creatures while missing yourself :P 21:46:48 or it could not 21:46:53 hence the :P 21:46:58 yes but then it'd always select spen and this would never come up 21:48:54 so what happens if you have 21:48:57 ##@# 21:49:02 ##.# 21:49:08 my timestamp ruined this 21:49:41 Is there a Lightning Bolt page on the wiki? I feel like you two'd be better served making your case in a more coherent medium 21:49:50 say you have a tunnel leading south ending in a right angle to the left 21:50:07 if you shoot it straight down, it only bounces left? 21:50:16 eronarn is allergic to coherence 21:51:11 actually I guess that answers itself 21:51:21 in conclusion: bouncing is cool, yours is sort of icky 21:51:27 -!- Textmode has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 21:51:39 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:53:52 http://pastebin.com/4EVHXmRW 21:53:55 a drawing 21:54:35 Eronarn: EroCrawl is a rather misleading name, if it's not what I think it is 21:54:54 what 21:55:16 It sounds like it is an erotic Crawl variant 21:55:38 normal crawl isn't for you??? 21:55:47 is eronarn a misleading name 21:55:52 ...I might be able to be convinced. 21:56:03 has nothing to do with narns, though b5 is cool 21:56:08 doy: Are you all about erotic narns? 21:57:37 next time mspaint it like it's a football play 21:58:02 also bouncing off walls into open space is hard to predict and pretty useless in practice 21:58:08 better to stick to walls, like I said 21:58:27 bonus is that you can shoot at a pillar and have two exploding lightning snakes fly around it a few times 21:58:46 (for chain) 21:59:09 Seriously Eronarn, I would like to read your bolt-bouncing argument in a concise form on the wiki rather than split across hundreds of IRC lines, interspersed with OG17's counterarguments 21:59:25 Wensley: what a coincidence, i feel like making a wiki page 21:59:31 oh wait no i don't 21:59:38 write up the stuff I like for chain lit 21:59:40 it's 11 PM here and i'm in bed and about to get pie 21:59:44 write up that stuff anyway 21:59:54 Pie is the price you pay for having your argument heard. 22:00:08 pie is the price you pay for being eronarn 22:00:37 i should make a pie 22:00:38 I don't think that's either coherent or remotely an insult 22:00:41 maybe i'll do that this weekend 22:01:39 having an argument heard doesn't matter for this kind of argument, what matters is getting a change actually made 22:01:45 making a wiki page is not likely to result in that happening 22:02:04 it would be a far better use of my time to just code it rather than hope someone stumbles across it on the wiki 5 years from now 22:02:18 If you say so. 22:03:12 Eronarn has been around long enough to figure out how crawl development works 22:03:15 (: 22:04:30 if I learn to code can I get ogcrawl on cdo 22:04:33 i'm betting the correlation between 'time spent on wiki' and 'amount of commits' would be -.8 or so 22:04:42 it'd be like erocrawl but with normal races instead of oc and lo 22:04:54 so it'd be squarelos 22:04:59 shh 22:06:55 squarelos seems to be a pretty good gimmick for getting people to play experimental builds 22:07:36 it'd be neat to have an experimental branch where all of the wacky stuff gets merged 22:08:07 Eronarn: i have suggested this already 22:08:16 Eronarn: I agree, it's something I've thought a lot about as well. 22:08:38 my proposal is that we have a "wacky" branch on gitorious and accept any non-crazy commit pull requests at our discretion 22:09:23 due: i think it'd be good to have some kind of way of tracking that so that stuff doesn't get committed and then stuck there for eternity 22:09:28 that might make it harder for stuff to get into the game 22:09:29 yeah 22:09:36 why? 22:09:45 I was thinking more like hosting a separate Crawl server (so that memory leaks can't cripple the real servers) with lots of compiled versions with crazy revisions, so people can try out many variations 22:10:02 something like: for it to remain in experimental it has to get some amount of votes, and let people vote down too 22:10:06 you'd have stuff get shipped into wackyland instead of being merged and it could be dismissed as wacky 22:10:18 OG17: wtf 22:10:30 and it's not like you can really test it properly since it's not in a normal environment 22:10:30 why is that what is automatically going to happen? 22:10:37 maybe I'm not sure what the purpose of this is 22:10:42 where having votes both says 'i want this to stay and experimental' and 'this thing is liked by people in experimental, maybe it should go in trunk' 22:10:42 if it's just a funhouse that's fine 22:10:57 meh 22:11:00 OG17: prototyping a concept is very useful to selling it 22:11:08 it's not automatically going to happen but I'm pretty sure it'd be prone to it 22:11:24 I see your concern. 22:11:26 yeah but you'd test it on its own, not with dozens of other things 22:11:37 a better option would be to have a bunch of smaller topic branches that are maintained separately 22:11:41 i think it'd be more prone to the problem of people forgetting what changes were even existing on experimental 22:11:43 dozens of other things would be difficult yes 22:11:46 and then one branch that merges everything 22:12:01 that way it's easy to just drop things if people decide they don't like it 22:12:08 other solution is to have a separate *repository* with multiple branches 22:12:26 some kind of... hub, for git? 22:12:30 Eronarn: :p 22:12:51 Eronarn: basically, but as doy suggests, stuff can get pulled from there into "Experimental" and then from there into master. 22:13:07 isn't trunk supposed to basically be experimental 22:13:09 due: erocrawl is on github already :P 22:13:16 OG17: no, trunk is preparing for a release 22:13:17 OG17: not really any more 22:13:22 OG17: many projects have different levels of experimentality 22:13:33 trunk is more akin to beta testing 22:13:51 especially having to ensure save compat and so on 22:13:55 I guess, it's been the only testing though 22:14:06 no, it's the only *online* testing 22:14:17 which is a problem for stuff that's hard to test by yourself 22:14:19 like new races 22:14:21 I don't really understand why save compatibility is considered so important 22:14:22 crawl is still hideously untested and undocumented 22:14:24 I think this is something that should change, and I think it *hasn't* changed because of the scarcity of developers 22:14:25 but I don't know anything 22:15:06 OG17: because downloading a new version onty to find you can't continue your XL25 XXXX due to someone not bothering to keep save comaptability? 22:15:42 due: Untested in what way? Does Crawl have test cases or other testing utilities? 22:15:42 I'd say someone that's going to be annoyed at that should play a stable release 22:15:47 I'd think it comes with the territory 22:16:11 Wensley: crawl has test cases if by test cases you mean asserts! :V 22:16:23 Wensley: no 22:16:50 Wensley: we have no unit, integration or systems testing, and our documentation is woefully bad in some aspects 22:17:05 Wensley: working out how to do something is a matter of trawling the source code until you find something that *might* be the relevant function, then modifying that, etc. 22:17:06 (just plain bad in all others) 22:17:37 ugh, that sounds pretty terrible 22:17:49 crawl is several hundred thousand lines of code, originally written and designed by someone just learning c++ 22:17:52 so there's that 22:17:59 Yeah. 22:18:18 there's also a bit of duplication of effort -- because new people don't know that a previous solution already exists 22:18:21 well, having loads of old and unalterable code is a component of a project this old 22:18:36 (not that I'm saying it's okay, just common) 22:19:10 welp, let's get started on that complete crawl re-write 22:19:18 not possibly 22:20:06 erm, not possible rather 22:20:53 has the licensing stuff been worked out? 22:21:05 due, you mean it would just take an inhuman amount of effort, correct? or do you mean licensing issues? 22:21:30 Wensley: inhuman amount of effort. 22:21:45 Wensley: it would require putting the entire project on hold for an unforseeable length of time and massive co-ordination 22:22:38 remember how i said several hundred thousand lines of code 22:22:59 there's code that does stuff in certain ways purely due to error 22:23:01 right, humans aren't really equipped to properly imagine numbers that large :) 22:23:09 but which is part of the overall balance of the game 22:24:27 the only option is slowly overhauling things 22:24:32 ala Zaba's dungeon.cc changes 22:25:01 is the license stuff done, though? 22:25:11 just curious 22:25:19 well it is heartening to know that progress is being made 22:25:57 and I'm kind of super-obsessive about documentation, I'm afraid to even look at the source code 22:26:54 Wensley: heh, it's even worse! 22:26:54 hmm, it occurs to me that charms/hexes really aren't that far from being balanced 22:27:27 Worse how? 22:29:42 imo axe lev, regen => tmut, rmsl/dmsl => hex 22:30:18 Eronarn: I am still absolutely for regen being tmut but there were too many screams of rage. 22:30:31 you mean moving regen from necro to tmut? 22:30:59 due: if you ignore them hard enough they'll change to cries of grief once you commit the change 22:31:27 megaregen 22:31:57 necromancers don't care whether they get charms/tmut 22:32:02 crusaders can deal with it 22:32:19 Well in general I'm opposed to it because necromancy is perfect the way it is right now :) Let's make it necro/tmut, and axe charms and hexes 22:32:38 does this change anything but taking regen from ghouls and vampires 22:32:40 Wensley: this is about making it necro/tmut insteado f necro/char 22:32:41 m 22:32:55 ah, thank you for clearing that up 22:32:59 it's going to make everyone get a touch of tmut but it's not going to hit charms very hard 22:33:02 I am all for it, screw hexes and charms, so boring 22:33:05 OG17: makes it a tmut spell (tmut is sorely lacking in spells right now, especially good ones) 22:33:57 moving spells so people get tmut is no better than moving spells so people get hexes 22:34:07 there is nothing wrong with moving spells so people get hexes 22:34:27 it's a cheat for making actual hex effects appealing 22:34:28 in fact that's what the hex/charm split was 22:35:02 it's not a 'cheat', spells don't have to be in charms just because they are buffs 22:35:27 (i've been in favor of tmut/nec regen since before the ench split ever happened) 22:35:31 spells don't have to be in fire just because they're fire but if they're not it sure comes across as arbitrary 22:35:35 what does "cheat" even mean in this context 22:36:04 OG17: it comes across as arbitrary in that school definitions are arbitrary yes 22:36:10 arbitrary doesn't mean wrong 22:36:19 it means instead of making people want to get hexes you just move spells they already want into hexes so they're forced into it 22:36:35 that isn't actually bad if those spells otherwise fit in hexes 22:36:37 "instead of making people want to get hexes, you make people want to get hexes" 22:36:43 what 22:37:06 instead of making people want hexes because of hex spells, you make people want to get hexes because of rebranded other spells 22:37:11 anyways arguing with OG17 is pointless 22:37:16 which are then hex spells 22:37:23 the main problem with tmut/nec regen would be crusaders 22:37:27 i... seriously don't understand the logic here 22:37:30 so the question is what should crusaders get instead of regen 22:37:31 yes but the preexisting spells are still just as unappealing 22:39:02 I think the issue here is that charms and hexes are ill-defined 22:39:04 maybe: fire brand, ice brand, rmsl, zerk, antimagic brand, silence 22:39:27 maybe ozo's armor if everyone hates having an antimagic brand spell 22:39:36 everyone hates having an antimagic brand spell 22:40:08 hexes and charms are well defined, however you split them, but people like to move things arbitrarily so hexes become more appealing or so class books fit neatly 22:40:15 having ozo's armour makes fire brand look silly 22:40:39 given it melts the armour and all 22:41:00 didn't that get changed recently? or is that only when you get hit by fire 22:41:13 duration goes down now 22:41:17 unless it changed again 22:41:34 also you could just give them haste back 22:41:38 that too 22:42:33 I think I'd rather just have Enchantments back, honestly 22:42:38 no 22:42:42 well, too late for that 22:42:52 enchantments was awful, hexes/charms at least has a future 22:42:54 even if it sucks now 22:44:24 doy: I thought the point of the testing phase was to enable us to roll back changes if they don't work. :) Not seriously saying we should roll back hexes/charms, though 22:44:43 They just seem like bullshit schools to me, is all. 22:45:31 well, that's certainly constructive 22:46:00 hmm, how would people like a metabolic englaciation that was passive instead of active 22:46:15 it works when there's actual meaning in the school definitions but not so much when there's a lot of handwaving 22:46:19 doy: I'm not going to bother proposing drastic changes if it's considered "too late" to implement them 22:46:26 OG17: you mean like every spell school 22:46:28 like: you cast it, it sticks on you, you'll try to EH stuff when you're adjacent to it 22:46:30 yes 22:46:39 okay then 22:46:40 but charms/hexes are really bad about handwaving right now 22:46:59 they dn't seem any worse than anything else to me 22:47:01 Eronarn: hmmm 22:47:05 could be interesting? 22:47:07 not sure 22:47:12 i think that might be a nice twist on the EH effect, it'd still be good for stabbers but also you could use it as a non-stabber to shield you from stuff attacking you 22:47:16 one of the issue is that "charm" and "hex" are synonyms. In fact, "charm" is the second definition of "hex" 22:47:27 Wensley: conjuration, invocation, summoning 22:47:44 invocation is well-defined 22:47:45 don't make linguistic arguments unless you're willing to have them made against you 22:47:49 no it's not 22:47:53 it is 22:48:15 linguistic arguments are dumb anyway 22:48:19 just to go back to the above "logic," this sort of thing is like if no one used poison, so you moved haste into poison and patted yourself on the back because people started taking poison for haste 22:48:21 we have an actual definition that we use 22:48:30 OG17: what 22:48:44 it's a cheat because you did nothing to make poison itself better 22:48:57 I'm not making a linguistic argument for the hell of it, I'm talking about usability and vagueness of terms here. Invocations is only bad in that it has mental overlap with Evocations for new players. 22:49:02 Wensley: http://thesaurus.com/browse/invocation?r=76&src=ref&ch=the 22:49:12 well-defined (as the same thing as conjuring and summoning) 22:49:15 regarding stuff like pushing people into tmut by moving regen 22:49:50 (or putting random charm effects into hexes) 22:49:55 OG17: so what is 'poison itself' if not the spells in it anyways 22:50:03 spells that poison things 22:50:18 do you not get what I'm saying 22:50:21 so if we made haste poison you when you cast it it'd be fine? 22:50:28 admit it you're just making shit up as you go along :P 22:50:43 there's a difference between making something better and redefining something so that an entirely different thing can be pushed into it 22:50:49 Eronarn: it is common parlance to say "invoke the wrath of god" and not "conjure the wrath of god", these are not easily confused 22:50:52 if haste poisoned you it'd be poison I guess? 22:51:29 OG17: ok so all we have to do to make regen belong in tmut is make it tmut-y 22:51:32 tmut spells reshape flesh 22:51:36 OG17: if your argument is "there are a lot of terrible spells", then say that 22:51:39 regeneration, instead of being a spell that reshapes your flesh 22:51:42 can be a spell that reshapes your flesh 22:51:43 but that has nthing to do with spell school distinctions] 22:51:45 then it will belong in tmut 22:52:37 it does when people keep trying to make hex appealing by putting good non-hex spells into it instead of addressing the terrible hex spells 22:52:43 etc 22:52:50 except people are trying to address the terrible hex spells so 22:52:51 what are the terrible hex spells? 22:52:58 no, that has nothing to do with hex as a school 22:53:05 also what exactly are the good non-hex spells in hex 22:53:17 everything that isn't hibernation and confuse pretty much, I'm probably missing some 22:53:27 i literally just made a list from trunk 22:53:32 I'm not even sure what the current state is but there's been a ton of it going on 22:53:45 I know sure blade and tukima, not sure about invis 22:53:45 the only things in hex that might not belong there by your definition: invis, sure blade, conf touch 22:53:49 "i don't knwo what i'm arguing, but it must be true, really" 22:53:51 seriously dude 22:53:56 also when all the brands were shoved in 22:54:03 all the brands are charms now 22:54:17 I'm saying this is an awful way of designing schools 22:54:30 the specifics of what's there at the moment doesn't matter 22:54:40 counterpoint: your belief that charm = buff, hex = mr-resisted spell is a far worse way of designing schools 22:54:59 yes better to have sentient magic 22:55:16 better to have schools that are balanced for gameplay 22:55:18 also that's not exactly what I wanted but it doesn't matter 22:55:20 yes 22:55:24 reminder that this is a game with evil swords 22:55:26 and chaotic potions 22:55:35 doy: best to have schools that are both balanced for gameplay and intuitive to the player 22:55:37 and malicious spellbooks 22:55:47 that means making fire spells comparable to ice spells, not putting firestorm in ice to balance the two 22:55:52 Wensley: sure, but the first is far more important than the second 22:56:17 I'd say that the first is useless without the second 22:56:27 OG17: feel free to make concrete proposals 22:56:28 I think they are both important 22:56:34 Wensley: intuitive is a scale 22:56:57 MR needs to be addressed as a whole, it makes a ton of hexes useless past early game 22:57:00 intuitiveness doesn't really matter at all for spell school distinctions 22:57:02 Wensley: Intuitive is pointless if the gameplay is not balanced. 22:57:05 as a start 22:57:07 OG17: i don't think that anyone disagrees with that 22:57:07 because players never have to intuit anything about it 22:57:19 it was never going to make it into .8 though 22:57:30 Wensley: we can explain things if necessary, which resolves lack of intuitivity; we can't "explain" lack of balance. 22:57:32 due: I said they are both important, I am trying to emphasize that I believe intuitiveness and consistency are undervalued. :) 22:57:54 due: wrt regen, there is also the separate issue: it should really have a downside 22:57:56 Wensley: They are deliberately undervalued in favour of balanced gameplay. 22:57:57 Wensley: sure, but not in this specific case 22:58:09 beyond the increased hunger, that is 22:58:51 When you force the player to suspend the illusion of the setting, you are edging closer to a game about simply using your numbers to maker other numbers go down to make your numbers go up so you can get the highest number 22:59:11 Wensley: good thing nobody is doing that first thing 22:59:27 You are, when you're not consistent and intuitive with your spell definitions 22:59:29 Wensley: and we are doing this ... how? 22:59:34 when you're ready to talk about crawl, rather than about some hypothetical game that started off like crawl and then went collectively mad, we'll be here for you 22:59:36 now you're just trolling. 22:59:52 I'm not, honestly. I'd tell you if I was trolling. :) 22:59:56 is imagining regeneration as a tmut spell really enough to make you suspend the illusion of the setting 22:59:59 really 23:00:01 really 23:00:02 ... 23:00:03 i don't even know 23:00:06 doy: "your flesh crawls" 23:00:07 doy: I *love* regen as a tmut spell 23:00:19 "omg ur spell schools aren't intuitive enough it ruins the game lol"? 23:00:19 then what are you even arguing 23:00:26 I *hate* the undefined distinctions between charms and hexes 23:00:39 my definition: still the best one 23:01:23 Please don't think I'm trolling by misunderstanding my arguments, I'm being perfectly amicable about this. :) 23:01:43 charms: benevolent magics that strengthen or protect; hexes: malevolent magics that weaken, harm, or mislead 23:02:14 Eronarn: weapon brands? 23:02:39 due: personally i favor the evil ones as hexes, the other ones as charms 23:02:42 oh, "harm or mislead". 23:02:51 see, I'm cool with that 23:03:06 sword -> flaming sword seems quite substantively different from sword -> shrieking with pain hellsword whose very caress is agony 23:03:32 Eronarn: one could argue that the other element is responsible for that part, but yes 23:04:02 due: if we made Pain and Agony - both MR-resisted! - nec/hex and also pain brand nec/hex then all the pain spells would be nec/hex :) 23:04:18 hm 23:04:25 Actually 23:04:28 Okay, then let's codify this definition and assign spells accordingly, making new spells to fill in the gaps where they appear rather than arguing about spell placement. This is what I mean by marrying balance and intuitiveness: allowing a theme to guide otherwise arbitrary design choices. 23:04:28 That would help nerf Pain too 23:04:58 Wensley: designing new spells is much harder than assigning schools 23:05:17 Wensley: the problem is that the definition of charms/hexes has been contentious 23:05:21 if you want to volunteer to design and code some new spells, feel free, but 23:05:52 self vs. other, buff vs. debuff, and mine (there was one other one that nobody liked that i forget) 23:06:01 Confer my comment about re-writing the crawl codebase. 23:06:15 we're technically supposed to be doing self vs. other but thankfully people seem to have realized that it's a terrible idea because it provides no flexibility 23:06:31 so now it's undefined 23:06:44 what's the flag to make mv not return an error when the target doesn't exist? stupid fucking makefiles 23:06:46 self vs other seems like the worst possible option 23:06:53 doy: ikr 23:07:20 i guess it's going to come down to an email round-robin then 23:07:38 though last time that happened and we got consensus for something we went with somethign else entirely instead. :/ 23:08:07 due: I'm sorry if I come across as demanding too much of your time and good will, and doy: since it seems there's no point in waiting for you to finish that statement, I'd be happy to volunteer to design and code some new spells, if we can agree that this approach is better than arguing about where spells should be. 23:08:24 due: silence is in *charms* and invis is in *hexes*. this is great for gameplay, and should absolutely stay. it makes no sense at all under any of the proposals people had favored 23:08:54 i say screw trying to get consensus on it, it's been forever and people are still making awful arguments without looking at how the schools actually play 23:09:23 having a school that's only buffs sucks, having a school that's only debuffs sucks, having a school that's only self-targeted sucks, having a school that's only other-targeted sucks 23:09:30 Wensley: I didn't think you were demanding, just slightly ignorant of what the actual result of your suggestion was. 23:09:43 those are all utterly one-dimensional, even moreso than summ (has recall, abj, etc.) and conj (has clouds, conj flame, cbl) 23:10:15 Wensley: i'm not saying you're being demanding, just pointing out that "just code some new spells" isn't the trivial thing you seem to think it is 23:10:30 if you have some ideas for good spells, by all means submit them 23:10:33 preferably with patches 23:10:34 (: 23:10:35 due: I am *so* ignorant, I concede. But I'm trying to change that. 23:10:44 or go code one of the 11tybillion existing spell ideas that no one will ever code 23:10:47 but this is a longer-term solution 23:11:00 -!- valrus_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:11:06 i have a backlog of a good 50 spell ideas if you want to start there 23:11:06 I will realize the dream of having an all-tentacle school. 23:11:13 because we really need the schools to be reasonably balanced in a shorter time frame than it would take to code and balance a new spell 23:11:29 Wensley: Okay -- and my issue was that you were arguing your point from a position of ignorance and seeming to refuse to listen when we explained why it was unplausible. But "issue" is a strong word because I don't enjoy taking issue with things. 23:11:51 doy: my plan is to make a proposal for .9 that shakes stuff up... main problem at the moment, though, is finding a way to present it that doesn't suck 23:11:57 it's hard to portray the way a school is structured 23:12:04 changing crawl morality from what three gods think to actual objective positions is a huge universe change 23:12:05 Eronarn: True. Consensus was mostly getting dpeg and a few key individuals who might complain loudly to agree to it, and then force it through. 23:12:06 and also do that for roles, etc. 23:12:21 there's nothing wrong with a buff school and a debuff school if the game actually allowed debuffs to be successful 23:12:24 OG17: what 23:12:38 where do these arguments even come from 23:12:42 One-sided conversations are hilarious to watch. 23:12:43 benevolent and malevolent don't change crawl morality, stop being ridiculous 23:12:46 your "evil sword" is only evil because tso etc says so 23:12:51 it's not evil in itself 23:13:06 that's how all of crawl's flavor is set up 23:13:11 sorry if this is such a stretch 23:13:17 great, nobody is talking about crawl morality 23:13:33 then how do you call things malevolent 23:13:50 you're saying necromancy and the like is evil 23:13:54 ... it *is* evil. 23:14:01 because tso says so, yes 23:14:04 No. 23:14:07 if it would help you understand this, pretend i said 'nice' magic and 'mean' magic 23:14:07 Because *we* say so. 23:14:10 not in the game 23:14:11 TSO has absolutely nothing to do with it. 23:14:22 only in the sense that you put words in tso's mouth 23:14:28 charms is nice magic that helps you and wants to be your friend, hexes is mean magic that hurts people :( 23:14:31 magic is neutral 23:14:35 is that simple enough for you to understand OG17 23:14:44 the good gods pass judgement on a bunch of stuff 23:15:04 * due stares. 23:15:30 I've seen "good gods determine what is good and evil" arguments before; those must have rubbed off on og17 :( 23:15:34 what does any of this have to do with spell schools 23:15:37 there's no difference between fire and death or whatever 23:15:38 NOTHING AT ALL 23:15:48 it matters for eronarn's goofy "this spell is evil" 23:15:58 except he never said that 23:16:00 at all 23:16:05 OG17: < Eronarn> if it would help you understand this, pretend i said 'nice' magic and 'mean' magic 23:16:08 i don't really see what you're talking about at all 23:16:11 exactly 23:16:16 he just said it again 23:16:17 no 23:16:17 i do not understand your argument at all 23:16:19 spells aren't sentient 23:16:38 and there's no in-universe objective morality system to divide them into "nice" and "mean" 23:16:46 fire isn't "nice" any more than death is "mean" 23:16:46 you don't have to be sentient to be described in anthropomorphic terms what the holy hell is wrong with you 23:16:47 what 23:17:10 i ... what? 23:17:13 I really don't get what the disconnect is here 23:17:23 i am literally cracking up here 23:17:23 it's you, you're the disconnect. from reality. 23:17:27 OG17: even if you don't agree on the universality of morality (which really has no place being discussed here), you can at least agree that "good" and "evil" are useful and well-known abstractions 23:17:27 pretend eronarn said "helpful" and "hurtful" 23:17:29 I really don't get why you think that we aren't allowed to define something as evil and something as not evil? 23:17:41 monqy: but hurting people is evil WHY DO YOU WANT EVIL SPELLS MONQY 23:17:53 because the sole criteria is what the good gods consider to be good and evil? 23:18:13 the sole criteria for what 23:18:15 You are acting like the Good Gods are sentient creatures who are controlling our every whim and desire? 23:18:18 what are you even talking about 23:18:20 if something is good or evil 23:18:23 what 23:18:27 who is saying good or evil 23:18:28 OG17: get it through your skull: what i am proposing is completely, utterly orthogonal to good/evil 23:18:29 nobody! 23:18:34 it has nothing to do with it 23:18:42 I don't care what words you use 23:18:51 nice mean benevolent malevolent whatever 23:18:57 there is nothing to base this on 23:19:13 save for the arbitrary judgement of three gods 23:19:13 as I understand it: one of them buffs stuff, one of them kills stuff 23:19:13 hint: crawl isn't real. crawl is a game. we get to write crawl's flavor 23:19:18 i... i... 23:19:20 ... 23:19:25 also that 23:19:35 if by 'that' you mean '...' i'm in too 23:19:36 funny how eronarn understands what I'm saying 23:19:51 i understand what you're saying 23:19:58 and rewriting crawl's flavor to have objective morality is... a pretty big change 23:19:58 the thing you are saying is just something that has no relevance at all 23:20:07 I think we're done having any sort of reasonable discussion here for a while 23:20:10 it shouldn't be done, it's a baseless split 23:20:11 helpfulness/harmfulness is not morality 23:20:13 OG17: except for how nobody is doing that 23:20:15 Oh ehllo 23:20:20 please go take a course on philosophy or something 23:20:24 it does when you say that fire brand is different from pain brand 23:21:06 two spells that brand a weapon with a damaging effect are probably going to share a school! 23:21:20 'two spells that make allies are probably going to share a school!' 23:21:26 'two spells that make clouds are probably going to share a school!' 23:21:35 'two spells that make explosions are probably going to share a school!' 23:21:39 the fact that we have a precedent with tso etc. shunning necromancy under the arbitrary definition of "evil" means we have justification for classifying pain brand under the same arbitrary definition 23:21:39 repeat until you get out 23:21:40 summoning and necromancy are objectively different 23:21:52 tso doesn't dictate spell schools 23:21:58 tso dictates what tso allows 23:22:04 now who's injecting objectiveness into things 23:22:23 yes, that's the different between a thing that should be objective and one that shouldn't 23:22:46 okay, change of topic 23:22:47 fire isn't objectively "nice" and pain isn't objectively "mean" 23:22:55 i just looked at the hexes/charms in trunk 23:23:18 i think, regardless of anything else, we should do these changes: 23:23:25 Psst: nobody tell OG17 that there are "is_evil" functions that rate a monsters evilness based purely on the spells they have. 23:23:26 -axe poly other 23:23:30 -axe proj noise 23:23:36 -sure blade to pure hexes 23:23:57 -axe MSH 23:23:58 due: find and replace "evil" with "misunderstood" 23:24:55 hey due evil means that tso doesn't like it 23:24:57 "misunderstood_and_unfairly_persecuted_along_arbitrary_lines_of_misguided_cultural_morality" 23:25:06 the more controversial ones i think we should do: rmsl to 4 charms/air, dmsl to 6 hexes/air + make it bounce projectiles into your enemies 23:25:14 they're spells that tso thinks is evil 23:25:18 monster_teleport can teleport a monster to an illegal square (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3839) by reid 23:25:27 So anyway. 23:25:30 oh also i forgot, make the cause fear spell work like monster cause fear (this one shouldn't be controversial i don't think) 23:25:46 Eronarn: I could get behind that. 23:26:06 the list as a whole, or just the last one? 23:26:06 eronarn: well, monster cause fear is still buggy so that might not be the best idea yet ;) 23:26:27 elliptic: well, it's not for .8 anyways, but for .9 23:26:31 so it's ok if it's buggy 23:26:33 Eronarn: Most of them. 23:27:17 rmsl/dmsl might need a bit more sugar to go down well but. 23:27:19 I also don't understand why sure blade should be pure hexes but I swore off debating what spell schools stuff should be 23:28:27 elliptic: because the original charms/hexes split isn't happening, with the evidence for this being that there are multiple spells which are now on the opposite side from where they were 'supposed' to be, so it shouldn't be bound by what the original split was supposed to be (because we're clearly not doing it any more) 23:29:57 due: well, the dmsl differentiation - i think nobody is opposed to that, different rather than strictly better. rmsl going up in level - i think this is the right choice, it's so good for a L2 spell 23:30:16 i think having either both in hexes, or one in charms one in hexes, is more interesting than both in charms 23:30:22 Eronarn: Yes, they'd need to be actually different though. 23:30:33 there are lots of current-charms that could safely be nerfed by increasing spell level 23:30:38 well, they need to be actually different regardless 23:30:40 swiftness, rMsl, regen 23:30:50 it's pretty dumb that dmsl is just "rmsl, but better" 23:30:53 Didn't I already bump regen? 23:31:11 regen would be fine at L3, if it had a drawback 23:31:18 (add a drawback and make it tmut/nec) 23:31:32 or by adding a drawback, sure 23:31:42 i think rmsl at l3 charms and dmsl in hexes with a "deflect things back at monsters" thing would be good 23:32:06 ideally regen should be something you cast in combat, or emergency downtime healing, but for (some drawback reason) can't keep up all the time in e.g. hell 23:32:31 because it's not good to have such a generally useful effect as 'healing' have no downside other than food and be so minimal MP cost that you can have it running 24/7 23:32:37 I would put regen at XL4 comfortably. 23:32:43 eronarn: if you want dmsl to deflect things back at monsters, please make it less lame than shield of reflection currently is 23:33:10 elliptic: well, i think reflection effect would be fine, if it then fired at any monster close to you 23:33:19 because then the range dropoff wouldn't matter to the same degree 23:33:53 reflection should probably launch it back ignoring range 23:34:06 spellpower could determine the range of the reflected projectile 23:34:26 due: i don't think just buffing regen's level is the answer, it's moreso a problem with the concept of the spell 23:34:36 Wensley: so you'd add to the original range? 23:34:39 dpeg even agreed that it should have a drawback 23:35:00 regen causes sickness 23:35:13 Eronarn: I mean with the drawback I'd still be comfortable with it going to L4. 23:35:18 so you can heal, but your innate regen stops altogether when it wears off 23:35:18 ah 23:35:23 monqy: Not sure what original range you mean. I mean that at low spellpower dmsl would only hit an enemy with the projectile if it was adjacent to you, at high spellpower it would hit any enemy in LOS 23:35:44 (respecting line of fire, of course) 23:35:48 Wensley: I mean that projectiles have range 23:35:49 so if you need to keep healing, you need to keep casting it 23:36:15 monqy: What do you think is better? 23:36:16 doy: I think I like that 23:36:33 Wensley: take LCS for example. short range. something fires it at you from the edge of its range and you deflect it -- what happens 23:36:54 other drawbacks that came up in the discussion with dpeg: stat drain, requiring a chunk of flesh to cast it, +regen for the first half of the duration -regen for the second half equaling out to no change 23:37:08 My proposal would simplify things, but I see what you mean. 23:37:53 Eronarn: What is the problem with regen that people are trying to fix, just it being too powerful? 23:37:54 monqy: reflect light in a mirror 23:38:01 monqy: is it dimmed? 23:38:14 hm 23:38:14 due: 'yes, since mirrors don't reflect perfectly' 23:38:36 Eronarn: i was just about to say "ignoring the lack of mirrors to reflect perfectly" 23:38:39 Wensley: regen is powerful, yes, but also it encourages 'bad' behavior (keeping it up all the time) 23:38:42 I don't mean reflecting it should decrease its total range; I mean it shouldn't add to its total range 23:39:01 re-casting the beam using the range of the original spell sounds good to me 23:39:05 total range being the length of the path it takes from its source to its final destination 23:39:15 Wensley: basically, healing is such a good effect that the food cost of regen is minor compared to the benefits 23:39:35 I see what you're getting at. 23:39:51 regen is good as a combat effect but bad as a keep-up-during-downtime effect 23:39:58 recasting the beam would work though, but feel a bit weird; the gameplay benefits might be worth it 23:40:08 eronarn: current regen isn't good as a combat effect 23:40:14 what elliptic said 23:40:14 people rarely use it for that 23:40:31 I think the +regen -regen thing would be nifty 23:40:39 the rest sound annoying 23:40:59 I've been kicking around an idea for a status effect that's like glow, but only accrues when you cast necromancy spells and diminshes over time, whose effect would be to slow your natural healing ability. But this is a more drastic change than the things you propose. 23:41:01 (sickness, statdrain, requiring a reagent) 23:41:02 +regen -regen is effectively just "regen makes you sick" 23:41:25 except "regen makes you sick" is more flavorful 23:42:18 Are there different levels of sick like there are for poison? We're just trying to keep people from using regen too much, rather than once in a while 23:42:42 as I see it, -regen is more relevant in combat (for the extra hp loss), sickness is more relevant outside (for the statdrain) 23:43:26 Wensley: there's sickness that takes longer to rest off, but I don't know if it actually drains stats more apart from that 23:43:58 elliptic: it's not great as a combat effect, but it's healing you can cast before a fight - this is worth using 23:43:59 in any case, isn't sickness prevented in lich form? 23:44:18 undead are immune, yes. why do you ask? 23:44:28 just making regen L4 rather than L3 would be a simple change that would make it much less spammable... most of the drawbacks mentioned here wouldn't really work well in practice IMO 23:45:16 doy: regen makes you sick cna be cured with potions, causes statdrain, and won't necessarily equal out - not saying it's bad, they're just different things 23:45:19 high level necromancers would be able to circumvent the drawback, but maybe that's the benefit of going full necromancy (not that lich form needs any more benefits) 23:45:21 eronarn: in practice, one doesn't often use regen that way 23:45:25 and it isn't interesting that way 23:45:39 I'd like a regen that gave a big boost (for in combat) but had a big drawback 23:45:43 Wensley: liches can't cast regen 23:45:53 ah, thank you :) 23:45:55 Wensley: at least I'm pretty sure they can't cast regen 23:46:08 1 HP per turn is small and it has limited duration unless you have quite high power and there are other buffs you want to use and you don't have infinite time to prepare for most fights and it uses 3 MP... etc 23:46:20 monqy: what about something like: 10x regen for 10 turns, 0 regen for 100 turns 23:46:40 10x regen meaning? 23:46:53 elliptic: is regen worth dipping necromancy for most builds, or is it usually necromancers using it? 23:47:07 wensley: you don't need to "dip necromancy" to use it 23:47:09 you can cast it off of charms 23:47:36 doy: the effectiveness of the current spell (this should be power-based, of course) 23:47:38 sorry. what I should have asked was if it's a component of almost all characters 23:47:39 and yeah, everybody should get it currently 23:47:55 but that's because it is low-level and quite efficient at moderate power 23:48:14 Eronarn: that's like 10hp/turn, isn't it? 23:48:24 doy: yes, which is ridiculous 23:48:39 it would make healing potions basically meaningless 23:49:28 doy: it needs to be pretty high to be noticeable over something as short as 10 turns :P 23:49:52 it could restore a certain percentage of your missing HP each turn, but have a drawback scaled to the absolute amount of HP that is recovered 23:50:07 anything more than 2-3hp/turn would be pretty overpowered i think 23:50:26 at low level, yeah 23:50:48 not if your regenned flesh is mutated and teleports away on its own unexpectedly >:D 23:51:07 once you have 100 HP though 2-3 HP/turn isn't that big a deal 23:51:51 that's not really true 23:52:07 A percentage of MHP-CURHP every turn? 23:52:17 Eronarn: what if it required you to be standing on a corpse to siphon away its life. this would prevent people from using it before battles, if that's your big objection 23:52:20 any combat where you'd consider using it is likely to last on the order of 10-20 turns 23:52:22 Wensley: no 23:52:28 that would be bad 23:52:45 that would make it sublimation of flesh for HP. 23:52:57 we could make it empowered like sandblast if you're wielding a chunk, but otherwise weaker 23:53:21 Wensley: too much like Sublimation of BLood 23:53:23 doy: it'd be worth casting, but i don't think it would be OP if it did that and then prevented healing for some time period 23:53:24 50 hp over the course of a single fight would be pretty extremely relevant 23:53:41 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:54:07 due: I think a few similarities are not undesirable. They both have different uses and important distinctions, and they're definitely more different than rmsl and dmsl. 23:54:24 also, what i was proposing wasn't 10 turns worth of a fight, but a spell that only had a duration of that long 23:54:56 if it were 2-3 HP/turn over 20 turns yeah that's kind of different :P 23:54:58 Wensley: One gets MP from flesh, the other gets HP; how are they different? 23:55:08 You're just updating a different number using the exact same mechanism. 23:55:32 Eronarn: what's the difference, if you cast it at the beginning of a fight? 23:55:35 oh wait, I forgot about sublimation, I thought you were still arguing for borgnor's. sorry 23:55:50 I ... was ... never arguing for Borngjor's? 23:55:58 *Borgnjor? 23:55:59 (in my mind you were :P) 23:56:00 doy: at the beginning of a fight you have full HP so you're 'losing' some regen, and the no-healing will kick in faster 23:56:04 I can never remember how to spell that one. 23:56:11 also, hmm 23:56:16 a drawback with healing items might be interesting 23:56:45 like: if you quaff healing, your regeneration drawback kicks in immediately 23:57:18 (i.e., you then stop regenning at all until the drawback wears off) 23:58:37 Oh right I forgot to formally submit the idea that TSO forbids casting hexes. Any takers? 23:58:43 no 23:58:59 :( 23:58:59 no 23:59:17 tso doesn't forbid you hitting things with swords 23:59:21 why would he forbid hexes