00:00:19 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.9.0-a0-105-gc1e2b80 (32) 00:05:09 But I can't figure out why, which makes me reluctant to propose randomizing the item rarities in order to improve replayability. 00:05:48 randomizing rarities? that's an interesting idea 00:06:06 e.g. if cure mutation is common in your game, you might want to take more of a gamble with mutagenic chunks 00:09:25 That was the thought, yes. 00:09:59 But the differences would be relatively subtle to detect, and I'm not keen on fiddling with those rarities and seeing if I can reverse-engineer what actually happens as a result. 00:23:18 -!- evilmike has quit [] 00:54:44 moin 00:55:23 kilobyte: check http://httpd.apache.org/docs/2.2/ssl/ssl_faq.html#vhosts and the next question, too. maybe with squeeze's apache it will be possible :) 00:58:28 -!- ais523 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:18:26 -!- bmh has joined ##crawl-dev 02:20:09 Wop the Vexing (L2 VpEn) ASSERT(mon->seen_context != "just seen") in 'delay.cc' at line 1636 failed on turn 1041. (D:2) 02:33:29 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 02:35:58 moin 02:36:20 hm 02:36:53 -!- bmh has quit [Quit: bmh] 02:37:42 hi 03:01:52 -!- Pseudonut has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:09:55 -!- monqy has quit [Quit: hello] 03:11:08 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 03:38:54 LuckyNed the Chopper (L10 HOPr) (D:8) 04:04:34 Is it normal that porkalator ignores mon->can_mutate() ? 04:06:42 it is a transformation not a mutation 04:07:15 you're somewhat right, though... we badly confuse polymorph with mutations 04:07:41 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:08:44 what if we separated the two? Wands/spell of polymorph other could force a bad transformation, neqoxecs would give monsters a random permanent debuff. 04:09:33 woo, no bad mutations from wands 04:11:53 it would have a big tactical effect instead of slight (but far more deleterious) long-term one 04:12:40 could be fun 04:13:06 polymorph other check mon->can_mutate(), so that's why I thought porkalator should do the same 04:13:32 right, but that's only because it ends actually mutating you 04:18:52 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 04:21:41 I mean when targetting a monster. poly other checks mon->can_mutate(), porkalator does not, so it can transform monsters which are immune to polymorph. 04:24:43 actually, it goes the other way: fewer monsters are vulnerable to porkalator than mutation, although these sets are distinct 04:25:32 doh, slightly misread it, but not completely 04:26:10 can_mutate(): MH_NATURAL and MH_PLANT, affected by porkalator: MH_NATURAL and MH_DEMONIC 04:27:29 what would you suggest? 04:28:46 I think the status quo is almost good, save for angelic beings being not affected by porkalator -- which has an exceedingly negligible impact 04:29:23 (this is for porkalator, polymorph other needs work) 04:36:43 ok. Seems good. So the flavour of the porkalator spell isn't just a pig polymorph then. Maybe we need to explain why demons can't be polymorphed but kirke can still turn them into hell hogs. 04:37:45 what if we allowed polymorphing demons? 04:37:59 kilobyte: polymorphing demons into other demons would *rock*. 04:44:06 sounds good 04:45:04 @??hellion 04:45:04 hellion (052) | Speed: 12 | HD: 7 | Health: 24-52 | AC/EV: 5/10 | Damage: 10 | Flags: 05demonic, !sil | Res: 06magic(65), 05hellfire, 03poison, 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 12cold, 08holy++ | XP: 601 | Sp: hellfire burst (3d15). 04:45:07 @??tormentor 04:45:08 tormentor (083) | Speed: 13 | HD: 7 | Health: 24-52 | AC/EV: 12/12 | Damage: 8, 8 | Flags: 05demonic, evil, fly, !sil | Res: 06magic(56), 05fire, 03poison, 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 414 | Sp: pain (d11), torment symbol. 04:46:11 65 MR is quite low, but then, the spell and wands is quite worthless 04:50:50 @?? fiend 04:50:50 Fiend (041) | Speed: 10 | HD: 18 | Health: 73-122 | AC/EV: 15/6 | Damage: 25, 15, 15 | Flags: 05demonic, evil, see invisible, fly, !sil | Res: 06magic(288), 05hellfire, 03poison, 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 12cold, 08holy++ | XP: 5532 | Sp: hellfire (3d20), torment symbol, melee. 04:55:09 -!- Jordan7hm has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:55:36 -!- Jordan7hm has joined ##crawl-dev 04:55:45 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 05:04:14 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 05:04:14 -!- Zaba has quit [Changing host] 05:04:14 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 05:04:49 -!- upsy has joined ##crawl-dev 05:40:18 -!- Ashenzari has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:40:59 -!- Ashenzari has joined ##crawl-dev 05:40:59 -!- The topic of ##crawl-dev is: Stone Soup Development | Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki | Long stuff to pastebin.ca please | Immortal Warwalrus and Crazy Yiuf forever. | Tentative 0.8 release date April 24th 05:42:01 should polymorphing demons keep their rank? It looks strange for hellions to turn into 4s. 05:42:23 @??hellion 05:42:23 hellion (052) | Speed: 12 | HD: 7 | Health: 24-52 | AC/EV: 5/10 | Damage: 10 | Flags: 05demonic, !sil | Res: 06magic(65), 05hellfire, 03poison, 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 12cold, 08holy++ | XP: 601 | Sp: hellfire burst (3d15). 05:42:25 @??sixfirhy 05:42:26 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 05:42:26 sixfirhy (124) | Speed: 40 (move: 60%) | HD: 7 | Health: 24-52 | AC/EV: 2/20 | Damage: 1511(elec:7-9) | Flags: 05demonic | Res: 06magic(56), 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 505. 05:43:29 it's based on HD, and demon HD varies wildly. Which makes sense, since it affects just spell power, and we want hellions to have weaker hellfire than fiends. 05:51:39 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 06:03:48 -!- Eifeltra1pel has joined ##crawl-dev 06:10:59 -!- Eifeltra1pel has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:19:00 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 06:31:07 -!- Guest64988 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:31:43 -!- Twilight-1 has joined ##crawl-dev 07:00:11 oh, nice bug report there for the exim package :) 07:00:17 kilobyte 07:00:59 which one? 07:01:32 so.. would dc_local_interfaces='<; 127.0.0.1.25; ::.25; 46.4.68.79.25; 2a01:4f8:140:3041::2.25' be valid now? 07:01:41 the one about space around the colons 07:03:19 well, i'll try 07:05:35 is there any reason to specify the IPs to listen on? For old SSL versions, exim can select a certificate based on the connection's destination IP. 07:06:20 tls_certificate = SSL_CERTS/$interface_address 07:06:30 tls_privatekey = SSL_KEYS/$interface_address 07:06:31 yes, there is 07:07:20 then you symlink the certificate from all IPs you want it to be associated with 07:08:30 the only possible reason I can think of is to have one vserver run a multitude of IPs, some of which have mail some don't 07:09:01 that's a nice idea additionally - yet i need to (vserver) and want to restrict the ip bindings 07:09:35 do you admin the host machine yourself? 07:09:46 of course 07:10:25 in that case, why won't you separate mail handling into a vserver on its own? This way, if it gets pwned, the rest stays safe. 07:10:43 several reaons 07:10:46 *reasons 07:11:35 anyways, did you see my first question? 07:13:21 yeah... I even submitted a patch for exim4 once, it has been changed since, though 07:15:03 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:15:32 http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=365428 and its clone 360162 07:16:10 I recall it being changed later, though 07:16:50 using <; and no more need to double the colons - so it still works :) 07:16:53 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 07:16:59 and since I just lined on :: on all mail servers I touch, can't help you without digging deeper :( 07:17:26 ok, "still works" is the best thing to hear :) 07:19:24 hehe :) 07:19:45 it's a pain to add all those ips already.. doubling colons would suck even more 07:19:50 so i'm glad :) 07:25:28 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 07:26:51 Morning 07:28:14 -!- frogfrog has joined ##crawl-dev 07:31:22 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 07:31:30 -!- Mu_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:31:49 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 07:47:53 -!- frogfrog has quit [Quit: Page closed] 08:08:36 -!- evilmike has joined ##crawl-dev 08:31:00 -!- DrPraetor has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:39:47 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 08:44:47 -!- kilobyte has quit [Quit: Sanity is for the weak] 08:49:28 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:52:22 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 09:09:09 -!- kilobyte has joined ##crawl-dev 09:25:05 is there any way to generate band monsters? 09:25:09 in wizmode 09:26:46 &M tiamat band 09:34:11 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 09:34:16 thanks 09:34:48 -!- kilobyte has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:38:13 -!- kilobyte has joined ##crawl-dev 10:11:55 what if I want a basic BAND_ORCS? 10:12:29 Chardump stripped of map and notes (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3799) by jpeg 10:13:08 if you want a band of orcs, try "orc wizard band" or "orc priest band" 10:13:10 -!- jpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 10:13:17 hey 10:13:24 hi! 10:13:45 does anyone know if the new orcish "mines layout" (vaults, lua?) is teleport safe? 10:14:25 I've never seen it before, and it's probably a bad idea to replace the orc bubble problem with something even more annoying 10:24:26 Ohh.. did I ever mention, how much I hate wand of polymorph in monster hands?! 10:31:37 ??polymorph other[7] 10:31:47 polymorph other[7/8]: A single wand: deterioration 2, fastmeta 2, int -1, frail 1, fastheal 1, slow 1. 10:31:53 this one was mine 10:33:16 ouch 10:44:55 -!- galehar has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:45:45 -!- valrus_ has joined ##crawl-dev 10:46:50 -!- eith_ has joined ##crawl-dev 10:57:59 -!- Excedrin has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:58:07 -!- Excedrin has joined ##crawl-dev 11:13:30 -!- casmith789 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:22:41 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:32:47 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 11:41:31 MarvinPA: Do you think that any of your recent commits need to go into 0.8? 11:41:46 they're all intriguing but none of them seem urgent 11:41:55 hmm, i don't think anything that you haven't already pulled in really does 11:42:31 'kay 11:43:49 9a7a490ff and e0ca6bca7 should go into 0.8, they fix #3786 which is pretty bad 11:43:57 perhaps no rotting while under death's door? in theory that can cause you to get to 0 maxhp but not die 11:44:21 before preventing rotting, that is 11:44:42 (and optionally ad8baf1a, that doesn't fix anything but just makes things a bit less messy) 11:45:12 (it's a followup to the previous two ones) 11:45:53 Zaba: right, I was wondering about that :) 11:46:20 MarvinPA: seems like one of the more likely candidates, yes 11:46:26 6c7b304 is the rotting+ddoor fix 11:46:46 also Zaba: you aren't working on the Orc bubbles by any chance, are you? 11:46:51 no 11:47:19 as far as I can understand that code, it's supposed to fix all such issues. Clearly, I don't understand that code well enough. 11:47:29 I know there was one commit about features not being added correctly if one was already on the map 11:47:46 but I'm not using the right search terms 11:49:07 there are a lot of escape hatches now, so things have much improved 11:49:21 I only ran into 3 cases that might be problematic 11:49:36 a) there was an escape hatch, but it was blocked off by a statue in one of these altar minivaults 11:49:37 _fixup_interlevel_connectivity is still largely a mystery to me 11:50:00 although I have managed to fix some things in _fixup_stone_stairs without breaking it, and that's another ugly beast 11:50:03 b) there was a teletrap instead of a downstairs, which also works but I don't know if it was intentional 11:50:12 c) the only downstairs led to the Elven Halls 11:50:30 these are all very special, so the general principle appears to work well 11:51:55 hm. 11:52:12 was the escape hatch a part of the vault? 11:52:23 yes 11:52:54 I don't have the save anymore, but it was one of those very common vaults that recently got the hatch added 12:19:13 -!- bmh has joined ##crawl-dev 12:25:54 -!- Napkin has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:26:39 -!- Napkin has joined ##crawl-dev 12:28:30 !tell kilobyte Allowing demons to polymorph means you can irresistibly (mutagenic fog) turn Cerebov into a tentacled monstrosity or hellephant, so he loses his spells and weapon and everything. That doesn't seem quite right :P 12:28:31 MarvinPA: OK, I'll let kilobyte know. 12:29:08 Luterac the Cloud Mage (L10 SEAE) ASSERT(mon->seen_context != "just seen") in 'delay.cc' at line 1636 failed on turn 12299. (D:9) 12:31:05 it's entirely doable with the spell and a scroll of vulnerability too, i guess 12:31:16 so not purely a problem with mutagenic fog 12:32:31 the spell + a scroll of vulnerability seems more reasonable than just tossing a potion at him 12:35:31 Doesn't seem like polymorphing demons should work anyways. 12:35:36 it only took a few tries, and spell's the power is capped at 100 which isn't hard to get 12:36:22 Cryp71c: it was recently made possible, it tries to poly them into a demon of the same tier i think 12:36:55 so i imagine it's fine for most cases, just not &s 12:37:12 hrm, I suppose. 12:40:05 yeah, looks like it transforms fiends into other fiends generally 12:43:37 polymorphing demons sounds strange in general 12:43:44 was there any reason to enable it? 12:43:48 that's what I thought, but I didn't know if it was just me. 12:44:55 " Allow polymorphing demons. There's no obvious reason why this should be not allowed, since demons are all about wildly mutated shapes. The spell and wand are mostly useless, too." 12:45:06 also seems to include polymorphing holies 12:45:36 in other words, no reason 12:47:29 also wand of polymorph is far from "mostly useless" 12:48:29 next we'll have statue polymorphing 12:48:33 or maybe undead polymorphing 12:48:42 being able to easily turn tormentors into non-threats doesn't seem particularly great to me 12:48:42 and then item polymorphing... 12:49:46 marvinpa: yeah, seems like the only way to balance this is to boost demonic MR a lot for anything that matters and remove/nerf mutation potion evaporating... 12:50:55 there was an inconsistency with kirke turning an imp into a pig... 12:51:06 but I'm not sure that's enough of a reason 12:52:57 oh also being able to polymorph mennas is clearly wrong :P 12:53:11 unless he has no zin piety 13:03:22 -!- monqy has joined ##crawl-dev 13:22:05 on a completely different note, i was thinking about the magic backgrounds and their books, in relation to the background tweaks in 0.8 13:23:14 and came to the conclusion that i'd like to remove the conjurer background, since they're mostly redundant with elementalists and then the book selection menu could be removed entirely 13:23:31 unless there's a good suggestion for a unified conjurer book anywhere 13:24:35 since reavers could be re-added whenever there's a good proposal for a reaver book, too 13:26:28 I dont have a suggestion for what sort of spells conjurers should get, but there is probably still a niche for conjurers as being a pure "blaster" type of background. The elementalists have this to a degree but are all quite good for hybrid playstyles 13:27:44 perhaps, it feels like FE is always a better choice for a conjurer to me though 13:28:14 conj[air+ice] is a decent straight-up blaster, but i really would prefer to have lightning bolt in the AE book (instead of meph because ew meph) 13:28:28 FE seems better than conj[fire+earth], at least. 13:29:16 was also planning on replacing bolt of fire with bolt of magma, in the FE book 13:29:30 and yeah, if AE got lightning bolt, there wouldn't be much of a need for conj[ice+air] either 13:29:49 so people can stop complaining about FE not having a ranged mid-level damage spell with the sticky flame nerf, and also i imagine fireball would be more appreciated if bolt of fire wasn't sat in the book right next to it 13:30:10 alternatively, level 5 fireball 13:30:28 unless that would be OP 13:30:46 that's a possibility but i'm not convinced there's anything really wrong with it at level 6 13:31:06 implications of bolt of magma for FE: oh no some irresistible damage 13:31:09 I think fireball would be more worthwhile if it was more common than bolt of fire, and in a different book, yeah 13:31:31 i don't mind FE having some irresistible damage either, really 13:31:52 in return for moving bolt of fire to the higher-level book 13:32:44 i think generally it's a good thing not to hand out level 6 spells that you'll use all the way through a 15-rune game in the starting book, anyway 13:33:18 a good selection of stuff up to level 5 or so seems more interesting 13:38:44 Does the lightning bolt spell compare directly to the power of the wand of lightning? 13:38:52 (the former feels weaker, by a fair bit) 13:39:36 i should imagine the spell is quite a bit stronger if you have decent spellpower, surely? i don't know for sure though 13:41:23 -!- DrPraetor|2 has joined ##crawl-dev 13:42:00 2 * (you.skill(SK_EVOCATIONS) - 1 is the power for wands, should be easy to get much more than that from the spell 13:43:27 !tell due do you specify cloud tiles overriding the normal clouds in any of your wizlab (or other) vaults? 13:43:27 jpeg: OK, I'll let due know. 13:47:04 MarvinPA: I think somewhere at mid-high power, it still feels quite weak. 13:48:09 i dunno... it's definitely not really comparable to bolt of fire/cold but when i've used it as an air elementalist it's seemed pretty good to me 13:48:35 the spell also doesn't run out, unlike wands :P 13:58:27 MarvinPA: conj book with magic dart and imb 13:58:51 conjurer challenge forever 13:59:45 yup 13:59:52 that + a new pure conj spell + 2 non-pure conj spells 13:59:53 or something 14:00:45 ps also alchemists, also stalker redo 14:01:00 stalkers are cool 14:01:19 passwall and petrify stabbing is way more fun than boring EH 14:02:58 is there actually a proposal for alchemy anywhere on the wiki? i just see a god suggestion 14:03:30 oh right just renamed poison magic + new stuff i guess 14:07:16 passwall and petrify should stay yeah but they should lose evap 14:07:24 it's a very noisy spell it makes no sense for a stealth role 14:07:42 i guess so, i want to remove evap from transmuters too though :P 14:07:49 yes 14:07:50 evap = alchemy 14:08:03 venom mage -> alchemist? 14:08:26 the current alchemist book i have sketched out: fulsome, evap, spell that makes thrown stones into explosion-branded missiles, turn walls into acid walls, ignite poison 14:08:40 so destructive, but not outright conj 14:09:05 hmhm 14:09:23 i think fulsome/evap/ignite trio is a definite yes, though the other two i'm still uncertain on 14:09:45 would this replace poison magic entirely though? and if so would poison arrow be conj/alchemy or something? 14:10:00 what about that reverse alchemy spell? gold -> spray of lead pellets? 14:10:09 it'd be basically a rename + some shuffling around + some expansion in scope 14:10:40 heh yeah, after i made the alchemist card dpeg mentioned that idea, seems like an interesting one 14:10:44 all pois spells would be alchemy but it'd gain a few currently non-pois spells (probably just evap/ignite) 14:11:14 which means less tmut spells, but you make up for that by adding new ones in the stalker/tmuter books, that feel more transmuter-y rather than explosion-y 14:11:24 it's an old idea - dpeg and I keep bringing it up whenever the topic comes up :p 14:11:33 i like the idea of gold as a spell reagent at least, no fiddliness like the current reagent spells either 14:11:56 ??book of chemistry 14:11:57 book of chemistry[1/1]: Fulsome Distillation, Lethal Infusion, Sublimation of Blood, Evaporate, Condensation Shield 14:12:01 some of the stuffi n there could go alchemy as well 14:12:13 like sublimation being nec/alch 14:12:43 so what would the theme distinction between tmut and alchemy be? tmut being about changes of form of living things, and alchemy for non-living things? 14:13:51 alchemy more about energy/reactions/processes; changing the essential nature rather than just the form 14:13:57 and probably also tending more towards irreversible changes 14:14:02 whereas tmut is constant flux 14:17:13 i think that mapping would actually work pretty well... afaik all tmut spells, with the proposed changes, would be temporary or reversible ones whereas ignite, evap require components that you expend 14:17:25 wait, are you talking about backgrounds/spellbooks here, or about separate spell schools? 14:17:50 fwiw, I don't think there's any need for the latter 14:17:59 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 14:18:06 jpeg: this'd be pois magic -> alchemy school rework... a lot less dramatic than the ench split, just a reflavoring mostly and then some new books/backgrounds taking advantage of the flavor change 14:19:47 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:20:02 i think it'd overall be a quite good change: there are lots of effects that are hard to do with 'just' a poison school 14:20:19 e.g. it's hard to imagine how you could make a L9 pois spell be at all useful unless you make it 'poison arrow everything on screen' 14:21:26 monsters can only have one piece of armour, correct? (for vaults and stuff) 14:29:11 -!- MarvinPA_ is now known as MarvinPA 14:32:02 would venom mages be kept, in that reflavouring? 14:32:28 yeah 14:34:25 their book wouldn't need to change either; the changes would be to stalker, tmuter, new alchemist book, and then probably envenomations/chemistry would need tweaks 14:34:56 it's more of a change to tmut than it is to poison, really (a lot more emphasis on forms/shifting than right now) 14:35:31 the VM book is pretty boring though 14:36:17 it's basically sting, meph, venom bolt 14:36:25 cure poison 14:36:32 poison weapon 14:36:38 Poison is just an awefully narrow school to maintain interest. 14:36:43 yes but nobody casts either of those :P 14:36:59 Could reform VM into a "Naturist" caster (eg, Druid) 14:37:15 "alchemist" 14:37:17 anyway my point was that if poison -> alchemy was happening i'd rather merge venom mages with whatever the new class is 14:37:18 the only people who even need cure poison are people under level 5 and they generally can't cast it 14:37:42 monqy: ah, yeah. just read up a bit./ 14:37:56 VM => "Alchemist" 14:41:18 VM isn't that bad of a background, really. That's why I asked about it 14:41:36 it's quite narrow, but good if you want to branch out into another school of magic, or play a hybrid that poisons stuff a lot 14:42:20 MarvinPA: vm does what the name says it will 14:42:32 i don't see anything wrong with having a few very one-dimensional roles 14:43:03 (if you want to see them be better, remove meph from everyone else) 14:43:23 i totally just did for AE, actually 14:43:31 <3 14:43:34 it could easily go on wiz... who else gets it? 14:43:43 cj? 14:43:43 is FE getting magma then? 14:43:46 cj[ice+air] but i want to remove those too 14:43:52 excellent >:3 14:43:57 st_: yeah 14:44:00 !tell Jordan7hm monsters can wear armour and shield, but for some uniques we put e.g. a cloak or hat into the armour slot instead for flavour reasons 14:44:00 jpeg: OK, I'll let Jordan7hm know. 14:44:09 then nerfing meph wouldn't be as hard, if few people had it anyways 14:44:14 !tell Jordan7hm same for centaurs/nagas and bardings 14:44:14 jpeg: OK, I'll let Jordan7hm know. 14:44:47 as for vm vs. alchemist: this is kind of like old-crusader vs. old-enchanter 14:44:58 they may have the same skill, but they're built around totally different roles 14:45:34 i could see trying to merge them but i don't think it'd be valuable, there's room for two alchemy-using mages 14:46:13 evap/exploding ammo/ignite/acid walls is a quite different spellbook from venom bolt/meph 14:46:28 the latter can branch into unresisted spells much more easily 14:47:18 (though i agree that cure pois / pois wep are kind of lackluster for VM, i wouldn't be against looking at them to try and see if we can do better) 14:47:50 e.g. maybe replace pois wep with OTR 14:47:51 cure poison is sort of probably worth learning on VM in case of horrible miscast or something? but i never bother 14:48:00 so then cure pois = guaranteed safe OTR 14:48:07 i considered putting OTR in there, yeah 14:48:26 makes the book of envenomations look very sad and empty though 14:48:34 otr might actually be worth it from a starter book 14:48:34 yeah, but it's kind of a silly book anyways 14:49:00 book of bugginess: sputterflies, scorpions, spiderform 14:49:14 remove resist poison 14:49:17 OTR => YPH 14:49:36 that's everything in Envenomations isn't it? 14:49:45 i'm removing resist poison, yeah 14:49:57 spider form, scorps 14:50:01 poisonous cloud 14:50:11 oh right pois cloud. that's in a ton of books anyways, isn't it 14:50:14 it also has poison weapon too, because why not 14:50:21 don't need to fit those spells anywhere else really 14:50:24 jpeg: thanks 14:50:24 Jordan7hm: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them. 14:50:27 power and clouds 14:50:40 yeah, envenomations can totally be axed then, if OTR => YPH 14:50:57 is iood still in power 14:51:04 (oh yeah, and book of bugginess should get Summon Swarm) 14:51:08 sounds fine 14:51:11 and yeah it is 14:51:36 hm, where would poison weapon end up actually, if envenom were removed and YPH got it cut 14:51:46 and AM was cut too 14:52:05 nowhere, could just leave it in the VM book 14:52:10 yeah, i suppose 14:52:20 'lots of options to poison, but no options to do anything else' 14:52:52 and then it's also just a straight buff to them so less people will complain, i guess 14:53:38 niggergoku the Frost Mage (L9 HEIE) ASSERT(mon->seen_context != "just seen") in 'delay.cc' at line 1636 failed on turn 10448. (D:8) 14:54:35 i have a list somewhere of new options for both tmut and stalker spells, i think they could probably each get 2 spells = 4 new tmut spells, which would make up for the loss of 2 (evap/ignite) 14:54:47 and tmut is a wimpy school right now anyhow 14:54:58 1) breathe bees 2) breathe bees 3) breathe bees 14:55:16 i actually have two spellbook options for stalker they're kind of neat 14:55:25 one is air/ice, one is earth/ice 14:55:28 due has some tmut spell half done 14:55:38 oh yeah, homonculus thingy 14:55:47 asphyxstab spell where you steal the breath from a sleeping enemy 14:55:53 sky beast form 14:57:24 i guess with charms/hex, hex/tmut would be another option to look at too 14:57:34 (witches) 15:05:36 -!- syllogism has quit [] 15:13:57 Abyss map completely black (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3800) by jpeg 15:18:46 -!- jpeg has quit [Quit: Page closed] 15:27:26 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:45:54 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 15:54:09 Attempting to descend stairs while levitating takes turn (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3801) by minmay 15:58:56 MarvinPA: enchanters still get throwing skill? 15:59:32 darts are usable w/o throwing, and I'm guessing enchanters would be better with 4 hexes again instead of that 1 throwing 16:00:20 well i don't think enchanters particularly need to be that much better, do you think 3 hexes is that much of a hit? 16:00:27 maybe it is early on, i guess 16:01:47 have enchanters decided whether they're a stabbing class or a general disable-enemies-then-hit-them class, yet? they seem to be leaning more towards stabbing now, at least 16:02:27 imo: ench stabbing, reaver disable 16:04:05 does en really need darts, a rougher start isn't that big a price once you're one-shotting everything 16:04:09 a disabling class would be nice but yeah, enchanters are pretty firmly stabbers 16:05:00 incidentally, corona is the stabbiest spell 16:05:05 not much room for a disabling class when you could pick a disable-and-oneshot class instead 16:05:26 do they still have sure blade? I guess sure blade might work with confusion stabbing 16:05:31 OG17: go read the hex reaver proposal i have up 16:05:41 it gets around that by disabling lots of guys MP-efficiently 16:06:04 sure blade is great for invis-stabbing awake things 16:07:04 hybrid isn't what I was thinking of with "disabler" 16:07:09 is sure blade still part hex? 16:07:15 it's all hex now 16:07:18 because sanity, finally 16:07:19 oh of course 16:07:24 so... anyone having problems with the new CDO server yet? 16:07:44 sure blade is still hex/charm 16:07:44 but yeah a pure caster disabler won't fly with EH being as good as it is 16:07:52 and nobody would let EH be nerfed 16:08:20 i wouldn't mind nerfing EH/stabbing somehow 16:08:20 most of the problem is spriggans anyway 16:08:39 MarvinPA: make normal sleep count as EH sleep 16:08:48 this would be very very significant 16:08:51 meaning? 16:08:51 ah 16:08:57 mm, yeah 16:09:02 also a lot more intuitive 16:09:14 'this spell puts a dude to sleep' 'it does not work on dudes that were just asleep' 16:09:38 the only problem with that is you don't get to know when the immunity wears off which is sort of annoying, i guess 16:10:10 but it does sounds like a decent nerf without worrying about touching the whole "stab = instakill" thing 16:10:11 make it abort if you try to cast it on stuff that can't be put to sleep 16:10:39 also abort if you try to cast it and nothing you can see can be put to sleep 16:10:42 right, in which case you'd probably have to display EH-immunity as a monster status effect for it to make sense 16:10:52 not being able to cast after something wakes up makes spriggans even better 16:10:59 relatively 16:11:10 OG17: it's less of a nerf for spriggans but still a nerf 16:11:20 it's not a nerf, they just kite even more 16:11:24 don't think there is any way to selectively nerf spriggans other than, in general, nerfing them 16:11:36 having to kite stuff is a nerf 16:11:51 it's boring but it's not significant 16:12:23 and everyone else is encouraged to pick up swiftness to fake it 16:12:47 having to kite stuff does matter 16:12:49 stabbing is fundamentally pretty messed up but I don't know how to fix that 16:13:13 it's not a great balancing factor but it's not totally risk-free either 16:13:47 it is for everything but a dangerous ranged enemy 16:13:57 or something faster than you obviously 16:14:04 -!- jpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 16:14:26 OG17: other stuff exists in the dungeon though 16:14:48 what stuff? 16:15:24 i mean that you can't kite everything to death in crawl without getting into some risky situations as a result of kiting 16:15:27 !tell Napkin we should probably switch to hosting the pre-release builds on CDO 16:15:28 jpeg: OK, I'll let Napkin know. 16:15:51 yes sir, ma'am 16:15:51 Napkin: You have 4 messages. Use !messages to read them. 16:16:00 whether that's walking on traps, running into respawns, wandering monsters on the level, whatever 16:16:03 i'll do it tomorrow from at work 16:16:15 CDO and mingw, jpeg? 16:16:28 you don't need to run through a level, you can just loop in a little circle 16:16:36 random things showing up isn't a huge deal 16:16:48 you can run away from things too 16:16:55 because you're a spriggan 16:16:58 and you only need one successful casting 16:17:08 Napkin: yes, please :) 16:17:18 will do :) 16:17:31 Napkin: I wanted to wait until the unicode bugs have been ironed out 16:17:34 i'm not saying it makes it balanced, i'm saying that it's not a completely negligible factor 16:17:57 !tell greensnark hey man - we could use a 0.8 pre-release build for macosx :) switching CDO & mingw to 0.8 tomorrow 16:17:57 Napkin: OK, I'll let greensnark know. 16:18:14 it's pretty clear that not being able to stab, cast, stab is a nerf, even to spriggans 16:18:21 sounds good, jpeg 16:18:23 Napkin: danke! 16:18:25 eronarn: I don't like that nerf, even on normal-speed races it just encourages running away when stuff comes back 16:18:29 it might as well be compared to how it affects base-speed characters 16:18:30 er, when stuff wakes up 16:18:39 and for most of the game you are one-shotting everything anyway 16:19:14 the nerf would mainly just make things more tedious and complicated (as marvinpa said, you'd need a new status effect for monsters probably) 16:19:30 Napkin: Want me to built it on OSX? I'm running 10.6.6 16:19:39 fr: raise EH to L4 16:19:41 "stab, cast, stab" is something you do only a couple of times all game 16:20:15 sure, bmh - do you know all the tiny tricks? maybe look at the latest macosx build? 16:20:35 Napkin: You mean I don't just run 'make'? 16:20:52 mm, either way, stabbing with petrify on spst felt perfectly decent and it was easy enough to kill most things 16:21:09 i really don't know, bmh 16:21:16 so i'd be fine with EH getting some kind of nerf, either by changing the spell itself or changing sleep-stabs 16:21:22 bmh: make wizard, I think 16:21:31 bmh: best to wait for greensnark, though 16:21:35 I also think invis needs nerfing a lot more than EH does 16:21:51 or rather, invis-stabbing does 16:21:55 nono, not make wizard 16:22:01 that would do debug build 16:22:32 make WIZARD=yes is better 16:22:58 a really severe nerf could be to end invisibility if you make a hostile action 16:23:00 make wizard isn't debug iirc 16:23:03 these are the latest builds from greensnark, bmh: http://crawl.develz.org/trunk/crawl_osx-0.8.0-a0-5780-g8f58253.zip & http://crawl.develz.org/trunk/crawl_tiles_osx-0.8.0-a0-5780-g8f58253.zip 16:23:03 make debug is debug 16:23:43 --- 16:23:45 # Optimized, with wizard mode. 16:23:45 ifneq (,$(findstring wizard,$(MAKECMDGOALS))) 16:23:45 WIZARD=YesPlease 16:23:47 DEBUG=YesPlease 16:23:50 endif 16:23:53 --- 16:23:55 qed 16:24:03 sheesh. has crawl always been this big? 16:24:03 curious 16:24:07 evilmike: sounds interesting maybe... it would also be nice to buff the non-stabbing aspects of invis then 16:24:09 I use make wizard for wizard w/o debug and I use make debug for debug 16:24:14 so I don't know what's going on there 16:24:17 same here 16:24:18 different makefile? 16:24:25 I'll leave this one to greensnark. 16:24:33 elliptic: yeah I think it would be cool if invsibility did more if you cast it when things can see you 16:24:38 no sweat, bmh 16:24:47 bmh: no, it appears to have exploded recently 16:25:10 bmh: the goal is to have requirements like those 3d engines out there 16:25:11 --- 16:25:14 # No optimization, full debugging. 16:25:14 ifneq (,$(findstring debug,$(MAKECMDGOALS))) 16:25:14 FULLDEBUG=YesPlease 16:25:14 WIZARD=YesPlease 16:25:17 DEBUG=YesPlease 16:25:19 NO_OPTIMIZE=YesPlease 16:25:21 endif 16:25:24 --- 16:25:27 use the source, monqy ;> 16:25:34 jpeg: I would actually enjoy crawl more if it looked like Dungeon Keeper. 16:25:52 heheh, jpeg 16:26:02 isn't that a miniscule roguelike? 16:26:38 it's a zot-defence-like ;) 16:27:00 zot defence with 3d graphics and an angry spiky demon 16:27:36 right, adding all those side projects bloats the code 16:27:46 not as much as having tiles does, though 16:28:04 tiles <3 16:28:15 crawl needs procedurally generated textures! 16:28:26 go ahead :) 16:28:32 reminds me - the show-empty-screen-when-adding-raw-macro-bug still exists ;) 16:28:50 *poke, poke* 16:28:53 I thought you said it didn't 16:28:55 jpeg: I'm rolling my own Perlin noise implementation. Give me time. 16:29:10 it's gone for console - but when moving the server i played tiles locally 16:29:18 and it still exists there - or is back 16:29:20 hehehe :) 16:29:37 yeah, I know - I submitted the bug report 16:29:56 ;) 16:30:01 haven't looked into it, though 16:30:50 invis should actually feel worthwhile to have up even on armored stompy characters 16:33:43 ?worker ant 16:33:49 ??worker ant 16:33:50 worker ant[1/1]: Like a snake but slightly worse. A tad slower but still faster then average. They have less EV and arrive after a few levels of HP are under one's belt, but light armor wearers like assassins and casters shouldn't underestimate them. 16:34:08 worker ant = giant ant? 16:34:24 yes 16:34:40 one of the more ingenious renamings 16:35:07 oh? I'm not much a fan of 'megabat' 16:36:14 the goliath beetle is nice, though 16:49:11 -!- eith has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:55:33 -!- not_evilmike has joined ##crawl-dev 16:56:38 -!- elliptic_ has joined ##crawl-dev 16:57:36 -!- jarpiain_ has joined ##crawl-dev 16:58:20 -!- elliptic has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:58:22 -!- jarpiain has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:58:22 -!- evilmike has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:58:25 -!- not_evilmike is now known as evilmike 16:58:27 -!- elliptic_ is now known as elliptic 17:00:13 -!- DrPraetor|2 has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:01:05 -!- eith_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:04:55 -!- bmh has quit [Quit: bmh] 17:05:54 Napkin: greensnark said he has a newer Mac, and he can't downgrade the SDK which would be needed for building executables for old versions on MacOS 17:05:54 kilobyte: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 17:06:14 so be it 17:06:40 which is a serious problem, unless someone can do them 17:06:57 homunculus won't make it to 0.8 17:06:58 due: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 17:07:03 !messages 17:07:04 (1/1) jpeg said (3h 23m 36s ago): do you specify cloud tiles overriding the normal clouds in any of your wizlab (or other) vaults? 17:07:06 possibly not even 0.9 17:07:32 !tell jpeg I think so, but I'm not certain. 17:07:34 due: OK, I'll let jpeg know. 17:07:37 alchemy in 0.9, for OPAl! 17:07:40 I have a hackintosh in a virtual machine that in turn can't upgrade to new SDKs so that might be usable, but I lack the slightest clue about running proper builds so I won't risk doing that unless guided 17:08:01 isn't apple forcing everyone to update anyways? 17:08:21 and a build for the current version is better than none 17:08:51 update if you pay 17:09:03 well, side-effect 17:09:42 does that mean we need separate builds? 17:09:43 jpeg: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 17:10:16 probably, as i know apple.. a build for an older version of the OS will run on every version that came after it 17:10:37 jpeg: there is a thing called "fat binaries": one executable has PowerPC, i386 and amd64 code inside 17:10:37 due: did you add the code for overriding cloud tiles, or was that someone else? 17:11:12 and they dropped at least PowerPC from their newest compiler 17:13:18 well, let's make a call for volunteer compilers 17:13:33 *well, let's make a call for volunteers that compile? 17:14:03 MarvinPA: about polymorphing Cerebov, what about considering & to be a tier? 17:14:34 so he'd get turned into a random pan lord? 17:14:45 jpeg: I did the code for it 17:14:47 or just don't affect them? 17:15:01 jpeg: is there a problem with it? I know someone else changed it recently, can't remember who though 17:15:11 there are no valid polymorph targets there... all & are either uniques, M_NO_POLY_TO or ghost_demons 17:15:25 right 17:15:29 due: I'm wondering where it's getting applied because I'm trying to work out whether the tile needs to be stored in map knowledge or not 17:16:07 jpeg: Hm, the tile gets applied whenever a new cloud is spawned either from a fog machine that defines a cloud, or spreads from a cloud that already defines a tile. 17:16:10 not a big deal either way, the bug #3608 is fairly minor 17:16:28 if we were nice, we could allow random pan lords, but that's not urgent 17:16:34 visually I can't remember what selects that instead of the default tile 17:16:51 possibly tileidx_cloud or something like that 17:16:59 why even allow demons to be polymorphed 17:17:13 or at least make panlords poly-proof? 17:17:31 due: yeah, tile_place_cloud in update_cloud 17:17:35 Eronarn: because polymorphing demons into other demons is actually a really cool idea 17:17:43 jpeg: making & a tier would have that immediate result, yeah 17:17:46 due: it's okay, I'll just skip that bug 17:18:08 due: i don't see it that way, especially not while we have stuff like tormentors/hellions >>> most other demons 17:18:45 for lower tiers than & it seems like less of a problem (but mutagenic fog probably shouldn't cause irresistible polymorphs) 17:18:47 Eronarn: shrug 17:18:56 also then there's questions like 'if i can poly an ice devil into a sun demon why can't i poly a water elemental into a fire elemental' 17:19:17 the famous slippery slope argument, but I sort of agree 17:19:28 "because you can't" 17:19:35 it seems to me that requiring the target to be composed of natural flesh (which can include plant flesh) is good 17:19:48 * doy agrees with Eronarn 17:20:12 * due shrug 17:20:15 i don't care enough either way 17:20:23 at least with normal monsters, the chance of getting something more dangerous out of it is pretty high 17:20:27 it's a nice, simply expressed rule; whereas 'you can poly demons but not statues or undead or golems' isn't 17:20:31 if it's limited to the individual demon class 17:20:32 but kirke can porkalate demons 17:20:38 galehar: so fix that? 17:20:39 you're almost certainly going to get something weaker 17:20:43 don't let kirke porkalate demons? 17:21:00 does kirke porkalate player undead? because if so she shouldn't do that either 17:21:02 but it's fun to turn demons into hell hogs :) 17:21:31 galehar: that's then affecting how poly works across the entire rest of the game just to keep a cute joke 17:21:55 what's wrong with polymorphing an imp into a hellion? :D 17:22:44 for starters, the reverse: polymorphing a hellion into an imp 17:22:50 due: from what i understand it, that isn't possible 17:22:52 MarvinPA: recall was in unlife so that kiku could gift it to you. Herding undeads without recall is really boring. 17:22:58 because it keeps the demon class 17:23:24 i'd probably be more okay with it if you could end up getting a hellion when polymorphing an imp 17:23:34 because that's really the major tradeoff for polymorphing in general 17:23:36 i'd be totally okay with imp->hellion 17:23:50 you get a random other monster with a slight bias toward higher HD 17:23:51 so we could use the tier as the "monster power" instead of HD then 17:24:04 kilobyte: or just drop the tier idea altogether 17:24:08 or just drop the idea altogether 17:24:10 I don't understand why details of kirke's porkalator spell mean that demons should be polymorphable 17:24:10 or just drop the idea of polying demons altogether 17:24:16 seems like a massive overreaction 17:24:18 elliptic: (the answer is they don't) 17:24:27 HD for demons is even far less worthless than for other monsters 17:24:29 and it is definitely a slippery slope 17:24:34 elliptic: i don't think it does; it just happened to be what started the conversation about it 17:24:40 cigotuvi hellions every day 17:24:46 demons aren't living 17:24:52 therefore they shouldn't be polymorphable 17:24:53 the end 17:25:05 next you'll be polymorphing items and this will be nethack :P 17:25:13 galehar: right (i was the one who added it), i suppose it'd still help for twisted resurrection... i removed it because death channel no longer creates permanent allies 17:25:29 i'd be a lot more worried about polying statues and stuff 17:25:44 elliptic: well, that's a bit excessive of a slippery slope argument 17:25:44 forgot about twisted res, although it's pretty silly that you need recall for permanent allies to be anything but incredibly tedious (and they're still tedious with it, just a bit less so) 17:25:44 (: 17:25:52 what dictates that polymorph *can only be done to living creatures*? 17:25:57 also, what defines demons as non-living? 17:26:02 they're just demonic, not unliving. 17:26:03 doy: I skipped the intermediate steps because eronarn had already mentioned them :P 17:26:34 due: well, vampiric draining doesn't work on them, torment doesn't work on them, etc 17:26:47 elliptic: they are living creatures thoguh 17:26:52 how so? 17:26:52 MarvinPA: sure, we'll need something better for permanent allies. Giving recall to necromancer was just to ease up the pain in between. 17:26:54 being compatible with humans enough to have babies (demonspawn) means they are living 17:27:04 due: there are lots of arguments as to why poly shouldn't work on demons 17:27:11 kilobyte: who ever said that's what demonspawn were 17:27:13 1) look to poly on plants and see how 'well' that works 17:27:15 Eronarn: I'm just saying that "they're unliving" isn't one of them 17:27:31 i always just thought of them as immature demons 17:27:35 not as human/demon hybrids 17:27:36 elliptic: because we have a specific identity of non-living and demons are not marked as that? 17:27:58 due: that's not visible from the player's standpoint though 17:28:17 2) look at how poorly balanced demons are on both tiers and HD; it'd make polying some kinds of demons hugely attractive (thus it's directly a buff to the player, since non-poly-desired demons, you still won't poly like you didn't before) 17:28:33 elliptic: a lot of things aren't player-visible 17:28:36 (2) there is my main point 17:28:47 3) it doesn't make much flavor sense since 'demons' are widely varied; a lot of them more resemble elementals than anything else (for example, smoke demons are just evil smoke) 17:29:06 polymorphing demons trivializes tormentors and hellions, and adds...? 17:29:28 guarantee -1 to all demons? 17:29:33 4) slippery slope is useful to consider in more of an intuitive sense: right now there is a hard and fast rule for poly, but changing this means there isn't one, and people will not understand why demons can be poly'd but not statues or undead or etc. 17:29:35 5 -> 4, 4 -> 3, 3 -> 2, 2 -> 1! :D 17:29:43 doy: our descriptions say that 17:29:44 but yes 17:29:55 I'm totally not attached enough to the idea ot defend it any longer 17:30:32 kilobyte: "Demonspawn can be created in any number of ways: magical experiments, breeding, unholy pacts, etc." 17:30:47 OG17: both of them have little hp, if you need several zaps of a wand of poly, you could use another wand to get rid of them completely 17:30:49 breeding is mentioned, sure, but it isn't really that clear what is going on :P 17:31:08 "the flip side of the Demigods" 17:31:39 demigods are created by holy pacts 17:31:44 magical experiments are also explicitly mentioned for the demigod description too 17:31:47 tormentors and hellions aren't trivial 17:31:51 and there's also a spell 17:31:55 if that's still in 17:32:19 kilobyte: I can install the old Xcode SDK on this machine, just haven't gotten to it 17:32:19 greensnark: You have 4 messages. Use !messages to read them. 17:32:23 I'll do that now 17:32:43 so it seems pretty clear that not all demonspawn are literally the offspring of human+demon (not that it even matters, i forget what the point of this was) 17:33:14 porkolator hell hogs is a cute easter egg but if it's going to lead to this you should just get rid of it 17:33:33 the point: just remove polying demons it doesn't add anything valuable to the game 17:33:37 anyway, yes. i don't think polying demons adds much except for complications 17:33:39 but introduces a lot of problems 17:34:01 likewise polying holies, probably 17:34:08 yeah 17:34:23 though as an aside, maybe plant/natural should be valid targets for each other for poly 17:35:07 One of the most terrible denizens of the many Hells, this horrible being appears as a great mass of writhing shadows which occasionally reveal a huge, horned skeleton. 17:35:09 so an orc finds a wand and you end up with a storm dragon on d4? 17:35:09 at this point I think we could remove poly entirely without losing anything valuable 17:35:16 it'd fix the plant poly problem without much of a downside except for possible fedhas weirdness and you'd occasionally turn uniques into oklobs which would be hilarious 17:35:27 it's fun as a wand and monster spell 17:35:35 rupert the giant spore 17:35:49 giving players irresistable clouds is looking for trouble though 17:35:55 OG17: but the whole concept is horrendous and could really be redone. 17:36:16 due: the wand is quite interesting for players to use early on 17:36:20 due: +1 17:36:25 I've made good use of it through early V 17:36:41 how would you improve polymorph? 17:36:42 the wand is good, yeah 17:36:45 I don't see what's wrong with it, it definitely leads to interesting situations 17:36:47 but I agree removing it wouldn't lose much 17:36:57 the spell should probably be removed at least 17:37:09 the wand maybe not but i also wouldn't miss it all that much 17:37:16 alternatively, making it work the same for player and monsters would be nice 17:37:16 one major problem with the wand is that good use of it requires some knowledge of HD 17:37:25 also how else would maurice give you seven mutations 17:37:29 which is spoily 17:37:36 elliptic: not particularly 17:37:43 kilobyte: you mean making it mutate monsters rather than change form? 17:38:01 OG17: should give monsters permanent enchantments. We can reuse some existing effects and add a few new ones. 17:38:01 doy: well, you don't need to look up HD values 17:38:04 Eronarn: yeah 17:38:24 Eronarn: I mean, neqoxecs. The wand could be kept as polymorph. 17:38:25 how doesn't that fall under "kill it with another wand instead?" 17:38:36 kilobyte: i think the problem with that is that it's hard to express that via the UI... i think it's a possibility but not necessarily worth the overhead 17:38:41 it's also hard to show in yeah 17:38:47 yeah, i don't think permanent enchantments are a reasonable idea for monsters 17:38:56 because monsters generally only last a couple turns anyway 17:39:12 Eronarn: several of current Zin effects are good, like being mute 17:39:21 the effects that matter are already other wands 17:40:01 doy: yeah, but the wand of poly wouldn't do mutations 17:40:02 elliptic: sure, but we could re-invent polymorphing as a much better concept entirely 17:40:02 kilobyte: the problem here is that if you have a band of orcs or whatever and mutafog them, you might have each end up with 5 orcs each having 5 mutations 17:40:18 -!- ivan has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:40:18 -!- djinni has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:40:24 it'd be cool to mutate uniques, but against fodder... 17:40:30 -!- ivan has joined ##crawl-dev 17:40:31 -!- djinni has joined ##crawl-dev 17:40:33 if you walk through the fog, you end up with 5 bad mutations either 17:40:54 kilobyte: i'm not talking about effect, i'm talking about ability to understand the effects 17:40:59 due: I'm certainly open to re-inventing it, yeah... as I said, the gameplay of polymorph is interesting but it isn't the best mechanic 17:41:02 polymorphing monsters is more fun than mutating them 17:41:08 that's quite possibly 10 different monster enchants that have now happened 17:41:11 the player has a mutation screen and isn't a collection of five identical o glyphs that all have unique properties 17:41:15 right yes that 17:41:19 for one, the effect is much more visible 17:41:22 and ending up Zin-or-bust when an orc gets a wand of poly is not fun 17:41:53 one thing that might work: Alter Other 17:41:56 yeah, i think making the poly wand force a transformation on the player would be a better idea 17:41:56 that doesn't actually happen any more than it does from meeting a neqoxec 17:42:00 jpeg: yeah, it's the wand vs neqoxecs 17:42:06 if you recall, alter self did a load of damage to you from warping your body 17:42:07 if anything needs to be done, I like the idea of adding more bad forced transformations 17:42:09 than making the wand give mutations to monsters 17:42:39 so alter other = you do tmut-flavored damage to the target, and if you don't kill them outright, they gain a mutation (can be good or bad) 17:42:49 it's silly to have friendly neqoxecs get loads of special cases, and to work totally different on players and monsters 17:42:50 with kirke and prince ribbit there's plenty of precedence 17:42:51 because mutating uniques might actually be interesting 17:43:05 but mutating fodder is not good 17:43:42 player would have no mutating effect if we disentangle polymorph and mutations 17:43:46 most monsters won't live long enough for the mutations to actually matter 17:43:57 (at least barring other changes) 17:44:27 Temporary transformations from polymorph other would be cool. 17:44:32 what jpeg said 17:44:35 Ah. 17:44:40 also, what due said 17:44:41 (: 17:44:42 Sorry, I'm optimising code in another window and not reading closely enough 17:44:45 forced transformations can just be waited off in most cases 17:45:00 due: ...it'd actually be really neat to do it with swarms code. generate some kind of monster, and stick that in the player's place 17:45:01 but if an orc can accidentally turn you into a hog or a quokka in the middle of a battle and you have to wait until it wears off or run away... 17:45:05 OG17: the monster is still there 17:45:12 so you can't just wait it off 17:45:18 (unless you run away) 17:45:19 but then it might accidentally turn you into a berserking bear 17:45:20 so the player actually has stats identical to that monster (but not that monster's spells, except for stuff like breath weapons) 17:45:20 you can head to a staircase etc 17:45:21 OG17: I'm not completely sold on it either, I'd just prefer that direction of symmetry to the mutation one 17:45:21 yes 17:45:23 so it wouldn't be *always* terrible 17:45:33 (you could also end up with a berserk bear yourself) 17:45:37 and have some % of the player's HP be 'invested' in that form 17:45:50 so if you die in ratform, you lose 50% HP, or whatever 17:45:56 -!- Twilight has joined ##crawl-dev 17:46:08 so there's an incentive to try and at least stay alive (but if you become something super-tough, you might actually fight better) 17:46:15 Eronarn: that works too 17:46:20 if you die in other forms, you just stay dead 17:46:22 -!- Twilight is now known as Guest23059 17:46:28 kilobyte: or that, which I was going to suggest 17:46:37 would there be a separate monster effect that gives you bad mutations, then? 17:46:39 kilobyte: that wouldn't work at all with what i'm proposing, which is very very different from existing forms 17:46:43 well, that means the monsters that are valid poly targets would hve to be limited 17:46:55 seems like you'd almost never have to worry about mutations at all, otherwise 17:46:59 because polymorphing the player into a rat would be pretty much instakill 17:47:01 which is dumb 17:47:05 isn't dying in other forms not killing you a nethackism? or am I confused and thinking of a different game 17:47:11 elliptic: yes 17:47:17 having hitting 0 hp leave you with half hp is sort of confusing 17:47:20 but nethack does it in a super dumb way too 17:47:20 so 17:47:41 MarvinPA: i'd be fine with splitting it into two monster abilities 17:47:49 neqoxecs should continue to mutate you 17:47:49 OG17: i think it'd work, you'd know pretty clearly if you got poly'd into a monster 17:48:01 doy: yes, definitely 17:48:09 -!- Twilight-1 has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:48:18 alternately it might actually work to just use the monster's stats, but any hits go to *your* HP 17:48:19 doy: we could rename that "mutate" instead though 17:48:21 also polymorph tends to upgrade things, strange if a player always turns into trash 17:48:28 but you still use the monster's AC, EV, whatever 17:48:32 eronarn: have you played nethack recently and did you like how polymorph works there 17:48:40 since this sounds a lot like it 17:48:49 elliptic: i haven't played nethack in years but it was ok when i did iirc other than the abusive stuff 17:48:51 (the correct answer is no btw :P) 17:48:58 elliptic: well, nethack also has polymorph control 17:49:04 which is the really really broken part 17:49:32 OG17: that's why I said it could be mostly random; ie you might be a quokka -- or you might turn into a berserk bear 17:49:44 nethack also handles polymorph hp really stupidly 17:49:56 due: i don't think mostly random is good because then you can end up a rat at XL27 :P 17:50:02 doy: sure, I'm not too concerned about brokenness, just about how strange it feels that you don't die when your HP goes to zero if you happen to be a rat at the time 17:50:07 forced berserk would often be worse than being a quokka 17:50:20 elliptic: yeah, sure 17:50:26 sort of like felids actually 17:50:29 :P 17:50:35 OG17: s/a bear who could go berserk/ 17:50:49 Eronarn: you'd be an XL 27 rat, though 17:50:57 just saying, nethack is significantly worse than what's being proposed here 17:50:57 (: 17:50:58 ??rat hd:27 17:50:59 I don't have a page labeled rat_hd27 in my learndb. 17:51:01 elliptic: 'as you're hit, you shift in a terribly painful way' 17:51:03 turning into a quokka at all is strange if symmetry's the goal 17:51:05 @??rat hd:27 17:51:06 rat (07r) | Speed: 10 | HD: 27 | Health: 47-85 | AC/EV: 1/10 | Damage: 3 | Res: 06magic(1) | XP: 479. 17:51:23 due: seems pretty bad to me! 17:51:32 Eronarn: true, i forgot how little stuff scales according to HD. 17:52:00 thought: poly other could, in addition to the HD shifting, skew towards stuff without abilities 17:52:22 so you turn people into bears, ogres, etc. more often than dragons or fire giants 17:53:29 this is asking players to be pretty familiar with every monster 17:53:37 as far as "can x outrun y" and the like goes 17:54:39 OG17: which is why having it wear off before death would be good 17:55:08 not sure how that's connected 17:55:17 you wouldn't want to die either way 17:58:45 -!- DrPraetor|2 has joined ##crawl-dev 17:59:19 -!- DrPraetor|2 is now known as DrPraetor 17:59:31 it's bad if someone dies while stuck in a form they don't understand, it's less bad if they only take some (potentially lots of) damage 18:00:08 wormform! 18:00:12 people don't want to take some (potentially lots of) damage either 18:00:59 polymorph shouldn't have people running to look up monster stats 18:01:20 as compared to a monster you don't know showing up? 18:02:03 I'd think most players have a better idea of if a monster is fast/slow compared to player races than compared to any other given monster 18:02:13 what forms would we want? Worm is not a good one: can't run, can't teleport away (no limbs). 18:02:14 I'm not talking about first-time players 18:02:33 worm is one of the only good ones 18:02:46 a form is trivial when you can run 18:02:48 -!- galehar has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:02:49 eg kirke 18:02:59 or is that still disputed 18:03:43 kirke is a summoner, and has range 2 of summons 18:03:53 well not trivial trivial, abyss could be a problem 18:04:07 kirke kills no one 18:05:00 not that hogform being fast helps 18:06:29 OG17: 1. before you could teleport away, 2. with no EV (no skill) and no AC (armour melded), you die in a few turns, and have no means of doing damage 18:07:52 hogs have decent enough melee on a lot of melee characters 18:07:55 kirke kills no one 18:08:01 I'm not sure how that's so easily ignored 18:08:13 like paralysis except it instakills AC characters instead of EV ones then 18:08:14 ? 18:08:19 game over 18:08:27 marvinpa: except it doesn't instakill people 18:08:35 that too, yes 18:08:57 most AC characters are berserk or heroic or have summons of their own active or whatever 18:09:04 i think i died to it once but that was my own fault for getting cornered by uglies 18:09:27 all the recent deaths were pretty bad play 18:09:31 back when it was on mantis 18:09:38 it kills you fast if you mess up, sure, but it's nothing compared to paralysis 18:09:39 "all" being four or something 18:10:01 berserk doesn't help much with 0 skill in UC 18:10:33 kilobyte: lies 18:10:50 I've killed kirke while berserk hog on non-UC chars 18:10:58 it worked fine 18:11:23 note that kirke is probably already injured if she waited for you to get into melee range of her and then summoned stuff around you and only then hogformed you 18:11:28 and _not_ getting cornered by uglies means not using melee. It could be good if there was a warning of sort, but currently there's none if you're not spoiled. 18:11:43 elliptic: AC or EV ones? 18:12:04 both probably 18:12:11 i still don't see how this is any more of an issue than all sources of paralysis ever 18:12:16 or you could just stand somewhere that lets you move away as needed 18:12:25 this isn't how things actually work 18:12:28 what usually happens with berserkers is that you wait around a corner, berserk, and kirke is mostly dead before you become a hog 18:12:32 MarvinPA: paralysis lasts a couple turns, not 200 18:12:40 and then hog melee easily finishes her off 18:12:50 kilobyte: paralysis doesn't let you run away at high speed 18:13:04 paralysis lasts long enough for you to be killed from full health 18:13:10 elliptic: uglies don't let you run away at high speed 18:13:29 sure they do, unless you got completely surrounded 18:13:34 which takes time as I already said 18:13:42 from full, very rarely unless there's some very tough opposition 18:14:03 seriously, the data doesn't back you up here... people almost never die to kirke and usually it isn't because of hogform 18:14:14 elliptic: so does killing her, and it's too random 18:14:31 elliptic: because no one used AC in earlier versions, duh 18:14:42 nobody complains about kirke in 0.8 either 18:14:48 (except you) 18:15:02 maybe the fact that kirke doesn't kill anyone suggests that kirke isn't actually dangerous 18:15:19 elliptic: the _chance_ to get porkalated is small. 18:15:24 oh this again 18:15:34 a small chance for an insta-kill doesn't make it any better 18:15:34 kilobyte: you really have to work at it to die to hogform 18:15:46 it isn't an instakill any more than any other avoidable death is 18:15:47 like, be an AC non-unarmed char? 18:15:48 paralysis is a small chance at an instakill 18:15:49 kirke turns people to pigs, people don't die 18:15:58 kilobyte: AND GET SURROUNDED 18:16:06 (caps because you don't seem to understand this) 18:16:15 somewhat more than a small chance in fact 18:16:32 elliptic: and HOW DO YOU DON'T GET SURROUNDED IF IT TAKES >20 TURNS WITH AN AXE? 18:16:33 also blade traps are a small chance of an instakill 18:16:33 if kirke summons enough to surround you on one turn, you can read a scroll of teleport if hogform is a worry 18:16:40 and lots of other things probably 18:16:41 (sorry for caps, just responding in kind) 18:16:48 !lg * ikiller=kirke v>0.8 s=char 18:16:49 5 games for * (ikiller=kirke v>0.8): 1x MfEn, 1x DrWr, 1x DrIE, 1x MiPa, 1x FeBe 18:16:54 she isn't fast so she doesn't double-move and summon+hogform 18:17:07 look at all those heavy armor characters 18:17:28 OG17: I already said it is rare 18:17:51 I already said you're wrong about that 18:17:55 elliptic: you're a spoiled player and you know you need to take her out with wands from afar 18:17:59 kilobyte: also, how are you possibly taking >20 turns with an axe to kill kirke 18:18:09 she has poor melee defenses 18:18:10 it's not like these five games are some high percentage of total games where a player was hogformed 18:18:20 kilobyte: I rarely use wands on her because DMsl 18:18:31 and because they aren't necessary 18:22:23 either hogform succeeds so rarely that only one armored character's been affected in .8 or you might be transparently wrong about every assumption you're making 18:22:25 just tried it with a copy of a real char. Turn 1: 18 damage. Turn 2: 7 damage, porkalated. Died by turn 12. 18:22:39 +5,+5 demon whip of venom 18:23:16 with Might like in the real game it was copied from 18:24:10 if the armoured character was that mipa then i'm pretty sure it was purely my bad play, too 18:24:16 why is this more valuable than the combined weight of every other game 18:24:33 I'm even assuming it was armored 18:24:36 yeah it was 18:24:53 Death Ooze revision (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3802) by XuaXua 18:25:01 kilobyte: did you not panic when you got surrounded by ugly things 18:25:05 and read teleport 18:25:10 since that might explain why you died 18:25:32 or run away once you were porkalated if you could 18:25:56 in this test there was space for only kirke and one very ugly thing 18:26:05 that doesn't answer the question 18:26:09 elliptic: you can't read teleport anymore, that's the porblem 18:26:23 huh? you read teleport when you get surrounded by uglies 18:26:30 you run away if you get porkalated before that 18:26:34 this isn't complicated 18:26:52 there is no way to fight her without being surrounded unless you're using some ranged effect 18:27:04 ... 18:27:11 kill her before you get surrounded? 18:27:14 it is almost like you aren't reading anything I write 18:27:20 with a stab, sure 18:27:40 what weapon do you expect me to use to kill her in two blows? 18:27:51 the game elliptic just put on footv quite nicely demonstrated her getting killed without surrounding the player 18:27:54 hint: she doesn't always summon enough to surround you on the first turn 18:28:05 and if she does, you teleport and come back 18:28:27 alternatively, if you can't deal with a unique, don't kill it 18:28:34 also what were the chances that you were hogformed on turn two 18:28:35 marvinpa: I was actually trying to find one game where I got porkalated three times before killing kirke 18:28:47 maybe you should buy a lottery ticket 18:29:12 mennas can "instakill" players that he catches in silence in exactly the same way, by this argument 18:29:29 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:30:00 another try: 14 turns to kill her, no porkalator in, surrounded by turn 8 18:30:19 what char is this? what buffs are you using? these numbers you are saying mean nothing without such information 18:30:34 "turn 8" and you didn't kill her sounds like you weren't really trying :P 18:30:58 five more tries: not a single porkalation 18:31:09 and how many times did she try 18:31:25 i don't even understand what this is supposed to prove any more 18:31:27 uhm, what do you mean "not really trying"? A +5 demon whip of venom. 18:32:03 I don't know what that means... did you have maces skill? were you mighted? were you hasted? are these your turns or game turns? 18:32:10 and what marvinpa said 18:32:13 MarvinPA: that it's a lottery where the chance to get instakilled is small but you can't do anything if you roll bad 18:32:27 kilobyte: I've explained in great detail what you can do 18:32:30 okay, let's remove paralysis too then 18:32:36 i don't understand how this is different from like 100 other different things in the game 18:32:50 mighted, 17 Fighting, 18 M&F, 15 Armour, 4 Dodging, 19 Shields 18:32:57 I'd really like to know why no one questions this persistant blatant denial of reality 18:33:11 OG17: *persistent 18:33:11 paralysis doesn't last 200 turns 18:33:19 my last game i got one-shotted by nikola the turn he came into view 18:33:20 OH NOES 18:33:23 also, porkalator explicity requires bad play (getting yourself surrounded) before it even gets this "lottery to instakill you" 18:33:31 you can't design a game by decreeing things beforehand and twisting, inventing, and ignoring things until they support your position 18:33:35 thanks due I do that a lot 18:33:41 MarvinPA: so you define "use melee" as "bad play"? 18:34:05 kilobyte: "getting yourself surrounded" 18:34:08 you can use melee without getting yourself surrounded, elliptic just proved it with the game on footv 18:34:12 OG17: it's really more for my own benefit than anyone else's; I always forget and have to make a note to myself going 'it is this way instead' otherwise i will read it multiple times as it mpasses and then re-write my spelling patterns! 18:34:12 (and then not teleporting) 18:36:09 so _a_ character by a _top_ player managed to luckily kill her in time before she cast her spell 18:36:23 five kills 18:36:59 kilobyte: the point is that you can melee kirke to death without risk 18:37:01 OG17: I do not deny the chances of this are pretty small 18:37:03 !lm * uniq=kirke v>0.8 18:37:03 1122. [2011-04-13] dyzzy the Cloud Mage (L14 NaWz) killed Kirke on turn 38123. (D:13) 18:37:04 you just have to know when to abort 18:37:10 five out of 1122 18:37:16 elliptic: just like any other monster 18:37:17 this is insane 18:37:17 ! 18:37:21 doy: yep 18:37:47 this is entirely a "learn from your death" issue 18:37:48 except you _can't_ abort, that is the problem 18:38:00 kilobyte: listen to something that someone else says for once 18:38:06 this is ridiculous 18:38:10 1,107 people seem to manage 18:38:17 characters, rather 18:38:32 have you filtered out every line that includes the word "teleport" in it? 18:38:40 OG17: because THE CHANCE IS VERY LOW, duh 18:38:42 maybe they're all _top_ players though 18:38:44 it isn't 18:38:51 stand there and let kirke chase you around 18:38:59 it happened turn two when you were trying a second ago 18:39:02 did you forget this 18:39:07 this is a dumb discussion to be having because hogform sucks for reasons that aren't instakilling 18:39:30 I seriously think kilobyte has filtered out everything anyone says with the word "teleport" in it 18:39:33 kilobyte: if you can't abort you've already played badly 18:39:35 what do others think 18:39:57 just tried fighting her for >200 turns, not a single porkalation with merely "quite resistant" 18:40:16 I think that if this is a trolling campaign it's beautiful but would be better placed in a larger forum 18:40:20 I've never found kirke particularly dangerous 18:40:28 finally had to &Z porkalator . just to test 18:40:30 and how many times did she try 18:40:36 "You can't do that in your present form." 18:40:38 kilobyte: you're still ignoring everything everyone else is saying 18:40:42 please stop that 18:40:58 as in, "just teleport"? 18:41:03 except you can't teleport, duh 18:41:16 you can before you get porkalated 18:41:26 and after you get porkalated, you can run 18:41:38 if you're spoiled, since there is no warning 18:41:52 just like it's a spoiler that a monster has paralyze 18:41:53 you are surrounded by ugly things 18:41:54 there's no warning for paralysis either 18:42:06 but you die to it and then you know 18:42:19 (or more likely in porkalation's case, you run away and survive and then you know) 18:42:49 hogform is bad not because it instakills you but because 'you can't do anything' aren't fun and people severely undervalue running away as a thing they can do 18:43:06 monsters with paralyzation 1. have a reasonable chance of getting it in, 2. it won't insta-kill you unless you were at low hp already, just like crystal spear 18:43:06 whereas paralysis actually literally does instakill you from full health on a random small chance 18:43:14 kilobyte: bs 18:43:20 especially with old para 18:43:27 that is absolutely not true so yeah 18:43:40 Eronarn: it was fixed! 18:43:56 does anyone want to talk about circular ranges because it's not like this looney tunes reasoning is unique to hogform 18:43:58 you can still insta-die to para 18:44:01 Eronarn: thanks for providing a good argument why this is bad :p 18:44:02 one could even call it a running theme 18:44:08 OG17: errors 18:45:38 imo merge squarelos into trunk 18:46:53 Eronarn: you mean, instead of giving an unique 1/1000 chance of insta-killing you, you screw the vision a majority of the time? 18:47:12 you improve gameplay a majority of the time 18:47:16 why can't you be wrong 18:47:32 kilobyte: what is that even supposed to mean 18:47:46 nothing 18:47:56 you're staring at a mountain of evidence telling you your're wrong, everyone is telling you you're wrong 18:47:57 the problem with Kirke is one that is pretty marginal 18:48:08 but you think if you tilt your head just right everything is going to fall into place 18:48:50 OG17: and what does tilting have anything to do? 18:49:30 i thought crawl philosophy was that not all deaths should necessarily be avoidable (even though anyone is yet to demonstrate a way in which kirke hogform death is actually unavoidable anyway) 18:50:44 crawl philosophy: it is a game, it should be fun (when did we deviate from this??) 18:51:03 MarvinPA: yes, that is still true 18:53:03 Kirke's hogform death is perfectly avoidable if you have the knowledge beforehand, sure. I'm not arguing it isn't, just that the player has no reasonable way to know he suddenly won't be able to do anything. 18:53:11 you do have an actual point here, though 18:53:41 (one of few reasonable lines in this discussion :p) 18:54:02 it is no different from a fiend doing torment/torment/hellfire in three consecutive turns 18:54:09 -!- jpeg has quit [Quit: Page closed] 18:56:04 make torment reduce HP by 1/3 instead of 1/2 imo 18:56:29 kilobyte: as said 20 minutes ago: i don't understand how this is different from like 100 other different things in the game 18:57:02 uhm no, there is very few things that can auto-kill you in regular sane play 18:57:34 ("sane" defined as "not an xl12 spriggan in Pan", not meant to insult anyone here) 18:57:52 kirke doesn't autokill you in regular sane play 18:57:54 regular sane play includes "teleport away if you get surrounded by ugly things" probably 18:57:56 as we've been over 18:58:15 monster bolt bouncing or chain lightning or paralysis probably qualify 18:58:32 you mean, is "always teleport when surrounded by enemies" "sane"? 18:58:43 bolt bouncing definitely does, that can do so much damage 18:58:49 in fact, we've been trying hard to promote not fighting in a corridor 18:59:07 "always teleport when surrounded by enemies and fighting a unique that can make escaping harder" is probably sane, yes 18:59:22 five bolt bounces immediately upon seeing the monster... why aren't you worried about that? 18:59:23 or "when about to be surrounded by enemies and ..." 18:59:37 git add -p 18:59:39 (remove bolt bouncing) 18:59:39 ... 18:59:40 really anything that can do 100+ damage in one turn probably qualifies for that (except maybe iood) 18:59:54 elliptic: good point, although it isn't something I'm not worried 18:59:56 nikola is maybe the most egregious of those, when you get an unlucky bolt bounce 19:00:03 storm dragons 19:00:12 6 lightning hits in one turn yesss 19:00:15 storm dragons can double-bolt-bounce, yeah 19:00:26 the turn you come into sight around a corner 19:00:28 double bounces are fine, 5 bounces not really 19:00:40 double-bolt-bounce means 10 bounces 19:00:53 (double turn because stormies are fast) 19:01:09 yeah 19:01:22 @??ancient lich 19:01:23 ancient lich (16L) | Speed: 10 | HD: 27 | Health: 81-130 | AC/EV: 20/10 | Damage: 2013(drain) | Flags: 07undead, evil, spellcaster, see invisible | Res: 06magic(504), 05fire, 02cold++, 10elec, 03poison, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 10674 | Sp: b.cold (3d37), paralyse, greater demon, animate dead, iron shot (3d44), teleport self / b.draining (3d30), animate dead, .. 19:01:33 also 132 point iron shots 19:01:34 yes well this is what you get if you have ridiculous variance damage plus spells that can hit more than once in a turn plus monsters that can act more than once per your actions 19:01:40 @??frederick 19:01:41 Frederick (03@) | Speed: 10 | HD: 21 | Health: 159 | AC/EV: 0/10 | Damage: 27 | Flags: evil, spellcaster, see invisible | Res: 06magic(140) | Vul: 08holy | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 5373 | Sp: mystic blast (3d25), b.cold (3d30), invisibility, animate dead, iron shot (3d36). 19:02:08 not quite as strong as an ancient lich, but can show up pretty early 19:02:47 when we last discussed hp from Fighting, there was a consensus to bump basic hp of most chars (while nerfing fighting) 19:03:11 there was a consensus about what to do about fighting? nice 19:03:24 there were several discussion around 11-12am European time, none that included late night people 19:03:51 so it's just "consensus among people who were on at that time" 19:05:01 if xl 27 Deep Elves have enough hp to always survive a crystal spear, there's no risk of insta deaths here 19:07:09 well, you run across ancient liches before L27 19:09:22 !lm * place=Crypt:5 s=xl 19:09:23 8408 milestones for * (place=Crypt:5): 1129x 20, 1115x 21, 1080x 19, 1056x 22, 849x 23, 739x 18, 621x 24, 463x 25, 460x 17, 448x 27, 276x 26, 134x 16, 28x 15, 6x 14, 3x 12, 1x 13 19:10:09 good point 19:10:44 you aren't going to be able to remove every possibility of instadeath anyway though, and raising low-fighting HP would help a bit 19:11:30 running into nikola at L14 soon after lair and being one-shotted by him is another good option 19:12:22 that happened to me last game 19:13:02 chain lightning is pretty buggy, too 19:13:28 not sure how it _should_ work like 19:14:03 lightning bolt-bouncing does more damage than chain lightning anyway, just takes a bit of luck for the monster to set it up 19:14:17 -!- Jordan7hm has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:18:21 what if we made bolt bouncing never hit the same target more than twice? 19:19:11 -!- Guest23059 has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:19:39 that might be reasonable, in terms of nerfing (and making less tedious, maybe) player bolt-bouncing too 19:20:28 changing bolt-bouncing crawl physics to be simpler would be good 19:20:48 I agree with elliptic but I don't really know how to change it 19:20:49 currently you can't really tell what will happen in any situation except by experience 19:21:06 obviously it is difficult to come up with simple rules to handle every situation though 19:22:45 the physics we have are not that bad actually, even if their game balance results are bad 19:23:25 I though bolt bouncing was changed so it only hits twice and then moves down into the next square, was that undone? 19:23:29 for players at least 19:23:34 if you throw a ball into a big pipe/narrow corridor at a steep angle in RL, it will bounce many times too 19:23:35 og17: depends on the angle 19:23:47 kilobyte: yeah, I know the current system is more realistic 19:23:57 that doesn't mean it is easy for a player to calculate 19:24:24 an ugly kludge: what if we ignored the bolt passing through the same actor third and subsequent times? 19:24:34 there's no reason for a bolt shot left from #r@# to arbitrarily start missing after two hits 19:24:34 that's ugly :P 19:24:58 side note, the aiming tracer should really really show bouncing 19:26:45 just got an idea: we could make it lose range when bouncing 19:27:15 -!- Mu_ has quit [Quit: Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place.] 19:27:50 like: 1. r, 2. entering #, 3. bounce cost, 4. r, 5. @, 6. entering #, 7. bounce cost, 8. @ 19:28:10 the range on lightning is sort of strange anyway, I don't actually know how it currently works but it can bounce several times even cast from edge of LoS 19:28:39 ########@# 19:28:45 D........ 19:28:53 it has greater than LOS range i think, yeah, presumably so that's possible or something 19:29:34 no beam spell has a range longer than LOS; chain lightning isn't a beam 19:30:22 we aren't talking about chain lightning 19:30:28 note that is a D there :P 19:30:48 (nikola also does this by casting lightning bolt) 19:30:54 lightning bolt has 5 to 12 range 19:31:08 depending on power 19:31:11 bouncing should become consistent and easily predictable before any limits are tacked onto it 19:31:59 easily predictable is good enough with showing post-bounce beam paths in targeting 19:32:04 I mean 19:32:30 the other way around; showing post-bounce beam paths in targeting is probably good enough for making it predictable 19:33:11 yeah but you shouldn't need a protractor to work it out otherwise 19:33:25 if sometimes it bounces twice and sometimes five+ times the angles need to be a lot simpler 19:34:26 you don't get targeting for monsters of course 19:35:08 uhm, indeed: the range should never, ever exceed LOS 19:35:53 kilobyte: so that's a bug that it does? 19:35:56 just tested it: you can use lightning bolt to hit stuff out of view, including curse skulls and the like 19:36:06 nice 19:36:07 personally i'd like it if there were implicit bouncing rather than what we have now 19:36:40 somehow I assumed that it wouldn't go out of LoS and never actually tried that... assumed it was just something weird with the bounce code 19:36:47 implicit bouncing? 19:36:53 make stuff get hit more than once based on what is around it 19:36:59 rather than having to angle yourself and bounce 19:37:29 it would certainly be nice if you didn't have to manually target walls most of the time 19:37:32 if you don't want to angle it yourself why are you using a bouncing spell 19:37:40 there's a ton of spells that just hit stuff 19:37:52 (i don't use it often precisely because it's a mandatory cleverness spell) 19:38:07 most spells don't require you to adjust the targeting for every single hit, yeah 19:39:04 i'm not sure what make bouncing even worth keeping, what if it just turned into a spray of sparks when it hit a wall instead (damages stuff adjacent to that wall) 19:40:46 bouncing bolts shouldn't be as finicky as it is but it's not an improvement to turn them into every other bolt only with positioning concerns 19:41:30 spells are already way too similar 19:42:20 marvinpa: speaking of variable-range spells, is it still true that disintegration has range 7-14? learndb claims that it does 19:42:29 or used to claim that it does 19:42:45 i looked at the source and couldn't find anything anywhere that would cause it 19:42:58 so i don't think so, unless i was looking in the wrong place 19:43:09 (also entirely possible) 19:43:26 'bouncing bolts' 'shouldn't be as finicky as it is' so how do you ever plan to reconcile these two statements because 'a spell where you almost always have an incentive to aim at stuff other than the target' is pretty finicky 19:44:31 there's nothing wrong with bouncing itself, just with the current complexity of a million different angles or whatever 19:47:42 i disagree, the angles have nothing to do with why bouncing is bad 19:48:11 bouncing is bad because the spell has to be balanced around bouncing or else bouncing will be OP, except then if you don't want to bounce you're using the spell in a way that sucks 19:48:28 aiming at a wall is hardly finicky and makes the spells different from all the others 19:48:34 then don't use the spell? 19:48:50 "have to adjust aim every shot" is pretty finnicky 19:48:54 it's absolutely finicky, and there are lots of ways to make spells different without making their interface suck 19:49:12 not sure how you're needing to adjust every shot 19:49:15 and i don't use the spell, usually, because of how annoying it is to do 19:49:26 -!- Jordan7hm has joined ##crawl-dev 19:49:41 even if i go AE i don't take lightning bolt that often 19:49:53 because it's horrible to actually use 19:50:53 well obviously loud and position-dependent and elec isn't going to compare well with other elements 19:51:37 lightning bolt getting more than los range was intentional i believe 19:52:13 it was mentioned at the time when we were redoing ranges, and people decided it wasn't that bad for one spell to keep it, especially with air being as weak as it is 19:52:55 lrd is loud and position-dependent and beam_frag yet it's still more fun than shock/lightning bolt to use 19:53:28 lrd is aoe 19:53:35 "harder to aim than lrd" doesn't mean much 19:54:05 also I don't get having it shoot out of los, I'd think that'd be a universal design philosophy 19:54:28 yeah that should definitely go 19:55:02 i think part of it was that if you limit range to los, then you basically can't do bounces at all unless you're adjacent to the monster 19:55:19 you can, just not as much 19:55:29 currently the bounce cost is 1 range, right? 19:55:29 is range determined when casting, or does it cut off when it reaches the end of los? 19:55:42 OG17: what about the proposal i just said where the bolt explodes into a shower of sparks where it hits? we don't have any 'beam+explosion' spells right now, and it'd work like bouncing when standing next to doorways or whatever 19:56:15 (and make it not able to be fired with . because lightning is hard to control) 19:56:49 that's bolt of fire with a bonus for doorways or whatever 19:56:56 doy: also, you'd need a very high power to get a range >LOS 19:57:12 it's not as interesting as fundamentally different behavior 19:57:25 storm dragons have range 8, too 19:57:43 actually it sounds more like bolt of fireball 19:58:45 -!- Twilight-1 has joined ##crawl-dev 19:59:05 kilobyte: I've gotten multiple bounces from storm dragons at or near edge of LoS 19:59:11 what is nikola's range? 19:59:19 should be high given his HD 19:59:51 OG17: why does 'bolt that ends in an explosion' not count as fundamentally different behavior but 'bounces' does 20:00:01 they're both different from 'generic bolt' 20:00:12 @??nikola 20:00:13 Nikola (11@) | Speed: 10 | HD: 18 | Health: 190 | AC/EV: 1/9 | Damage: 20 | Flags: spellcaster, see invisible | Res: 06magic(120) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 4016 | Sp: shock (d18), chain lightning, blink, b.lightning (3d22). 20:00:14 it's aimed like a bolt 20:00:29 and/or like fireball 20:01:17 oops, my bad. Storm dragon: 11, Nikola: 12. 20:01:36 checked this with range cap already in place... 20:02:07 (CIA is missing) 20:02:31 oh so it's aimed in a less annoying way than bolt bouncing but still lets you multi-hit things? sounds good to me then 20:02:35 let's do it 20:03:18 I've never found this annoying 20:04:04 and homogenizing things into "bolt of fire with x gimmick" is not a good direction to go in 20:04:24 bouncing bolts are approached a lot differently from normal bolts 20:04:26 this isn't 20:05:26 bolt bouncing is a lot different from normal bolts. this makes it different but also makes it annoying to use, hard to balance, and a factor in unfair deaths 20:06:12 if bouncing itself didn't hit five times none of that would matter 20:06:23 "annoying" is subjective 20:09:10 'hard to see' is subjective, yet also actually an issue 20:09:26 subjective just means that people have different opinions not that nobody's opinions should be listened to 20:10:37 also this is the kind of change that won't hurt people who like bolt bouncing as much as it helps people who loathe bolt bouncing, so there's that too 20:11:05 what is "hard to see" 20:11:19 also what about people who loathe copy-pasted spells 20:16:36 i mean that color X is hard to see on color Y, that's subjective on the level of the individual yet also very relevant to design 20:17:04 and an exploding bolt would still be more different than most conj spells 20:18:27 that's because most conj spells are either throw flame or bolt of fire 20:18:51 also pretty sure that color composition isn't really the same as "annoyance" 20:18:58 sure it is 20:19:08 it makes the game more frustrating to play optimally 20:19:19 frustration is similar to annoyance 20:25:42 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Quit: Page closed] 20:26:17 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 20:27:41 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 20:40:32 Antaeus moves slowly in deep water. (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3803) by elliptic 21:15:21 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:27:34 -!- OG17 has quit [] 21:27:56 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 21:34:31 -!- Jordan_7hm has joined ##crawl-dev 21:35:49 completely blank map (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3804) by simonj 21:35:57 -!- Jordan7hm has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:36:44 -!- OG17 has joined ##crawl-dev 21:38:01 -!- elliptic has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:50:09 wait, so 21:50:24 i thought the reason wights were moved to z was because they *didn't* have a draining attack 21:52:23 doy: no, it's because wights are corporeal undead whereas all the other Ws are ghostly 21:52:44 have they always had a draining attack? 21:52:51 also they pick up equipment and no other Ws do 21:52:51 yeah 22:13:13 that open plus-shaped water/glass layout shouldn't be ruined in lair, it looks pretty bad 22:18:33 it might be a good idea to restrict some of the weirder layouts from showing up in lair at all 22:20:12 -!- jarpiain_ is now known as jarpiain 22:46:34 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:48:48 -!- cryptic_ has joined ##crawl-dev 22:48:51 -!- cryptic_ is now known as Cryp71c 22:49:17 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Client Quit] 22:49:25 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 22:56:11 'invalid font from file' when path contain not ascii symbols, example russian letters (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3805) by adzeitor 23:12:46 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:22:17 -!- upsy has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:22:45 Windows development builds on CDO updated to: 0.9.0-a0-83-gf49d20a 23:49:38 -!- OG17 has quit [] 23:50:37 snow the Jinx (L11 SpEn) ASSERT(mon->seen_context != "just seen") in 'delay.cc' at line 1636 failed on turn 12777. (D:10) 23:50:44 -!- Jordan_7hm has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:51:02 snow the Jinx (L11 SpEn) ASSERT(mon->seen_context != "just seen") in 'delay.cc' at line 1636 failed on turn 12776. (D:10) 23:51:17 snow the Jinx (L11 SpEn) ASSERT(mon->seen_context != "just seen") in 'delay.cc' at line 1636 failed on turn 12776. (D:10) 23:51:40 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:56:52 -!- OG17 has joined ##crawl-dev