00:04:05 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.9.0-a0-14-g7482505 (32) 00:19:07 Yred's inconsistent with giving piety (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3759) by OG17 00:48:59 -!- ais523 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:54:54 -!- Adeon is now known as NotAdeon 00:57:48 -!- NotAdeon is now known as Adeon 01:37:08 -!- bmh_asleep is now known as bmh 01:49:02 Good morning! 01:49:12 good morning. 01:53:21 Hey Brendan, I saw your new RNG got committed to the master branch. 01:53:26 Which is cool! 01:53:28 so did I 01:53:30 w00t 01:53:45 I think that's my first commit since changing the vampiric weapon mechanics 01:53:57 Nice. :) 01:54:23 I know that kilobyte doesn't like this idea, but I've been thinking about Abyss layout for quite some time 01:56:07 What do you have in mind? 01:56:09 We could probably get some really neat layouts with modified turbulent perlin noise and a little thinking about percolation graphs 01:56:38 Has Abyss been modified to have a rune vault? 01:56:58 Yeah, Abyss can now have vaults, including exit and rune vaults. evilmike made several really tasty-looking ones. 02:00:11 I just image googled perlin noise and percolation. :] 02:01:18 Judging by the results your idea sounds cool but I really couldn't say anything more myself. (: 02:01:26 Perlin noise is fairly boring until you spice it up 02:01:51 On the vaults, some of them do take the current abyss layouts into account, so they'd need reviewing if the layout generation is changed. 02:02:06 does Abyss layout happen in C or Lua? 02:02:11 (but that's a task to do, not a roadblock) 02:02:30 In C I'm pretty sure, haven't seen it in layout.des at least. :) 02:04:19 oh -- we can drop crawl/crawl-ref/docs/license/mt19937.txt since MT19937 is out of the code base 02:07:42 Good catch - someone do it! 02:08:20 not me, I'm not active enough to justify having commit magic 02:13:02 Keskitalo: the most exciting abyssy bit I can imagine is having the abyss restructure itself gradually rather than in one go 02:14:26 Yeah, that'd be really cool. I think kilobyte has that idea in mind for part of the Forest branch. 02:22:06 -!- bmh is now known as bmh_away 02:32:40 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 02:40:47 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 02:52:18 Keskitalo: I'm only _pondering_, no clear ideas yet. The design currently has a level (or levels) that regenerate out of LOS but all with the regular generator, a static one with 349857393578 subvaults and, maybe, a "dark forest" level with reduced LOS. 02:53:13 Keskitalo: one of mulled ideas is a mad jungle that uses perlin, but from my experiments, perlin itself is no good unless it the map rapidly changes over time 02:58:11 why "rapidly"? Because one of core requirements is to never trap the player. I don't know of a way of post-processing perlin which is stable when there's a time dimension. This means, it would need to be static -- and simple generators can do static layouts better already. 02:59:22 perlin with slow changes means ugly connectors that appear and disappear completely, not good 03:00:04 rapid changes at least allow the player to wait for a bit for the map to change enough to move to another bubble 03:02:02 Kind of like you can get be confined in a small pocket in the Abyss, but waiting around warps you again quite soon (as few monsters are generated). 03:03:11 mostly yes, except that there are small changes every single turn instead of large ones once in a while 03:05:49 A bit like the labyrinth changes. 03:12:35 Player entrapment might even be good, forcing them to face monsters. 03:20:55 _raw_ perlin looks abysmal. It's good when the output is in real numbers or at least in a number of tiers, with just wall/floor, it sucks. 03:22:23 my old attempts: http://angband.pl/git/perlin 03:22:38 this one has a fuzzy ellipse forced in the middle 03:23:21 it takes most of the screen in 80x24, viewing it on a bigger terminal is better if you want to see things without the ellipse without changing the code 03:24:47 percolation graphs might be better, I just last read about them ~15 years ago :( 03:26:54 -!- monqy has quit [Quit: hello] 03:27:06 Running now 03:27:29 bie! 03:28:05 I mean, I'm running your perlin stuff now, nice visuals! reminds me of the flame effects :) 03:28:27 single-tile pockets look a bit painful 03:28:59 but mostly this llooks like big clearings, with permutating edges 03:29:03 yeah, this is raw perlin without further processing, just thresholded at a fixed number 03:29:20 it'd be kind of cool if the trees pushed you around, maybe even hitting you in the process :) 03:29:29 but then I'm too fond of the slime walls already 03:29:48 ok, now I'm actually running - a call for coffee here 03:30:07 0.8 slime walls are not the royal pain in the butt they were in 0.7 03:30:32 I haven't seen 0.8 slime yet, but I liked 0.7 already; though 0.8 did sound better even for my tastes 03:30:54 ok, coffee now, then back trying to mount a samba share so I could clone my local work git there for backup 03:52:08 glau (L7 DrBe) ERROR in 'format.cc' at line 204: Stack underflow in string "0*+" (D:5) 04:02:02 -!- elly has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:02:16 -!- elly has joined ##crawl-dev 04:11:36 -!- Pseudonut has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:22:24 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 04:26:27 glau (L10 DrBe) ERROR in 'format.cc' at line 204: Stack underflow in string "0*+" (D:8) 04:26:40 glau (L10 DrBe) ERROR in 'format.cc' at line 204: Stack underflow in string "0*+" (D:8) 04:26:44 glau (L10 DrBe) ERROR in 'format.cc' at line 204: Stack underflow in string "0*+" (D:8) 05:10:40 03MarvinPA 07stone_soup-0.8 * r0bab432381ca 10/crawl-ref/source/attitude-change.cc: Only let holies which can speak say things when converted 05:10:43 03galehar 07stone_soup-0.8 * r505cf60baf1c 10/crawl-ref/source/invent.cc: Fix inventory crash at some resolutions. 05:10:43 03galehar 07stone_soup-0.8 * rc06b48b3556b 10/crawl-ref/source/newgame.cc: Fix a crash when viewing aptitude with CK or Wa selected. 05:10:44 03galehar 07stone_soup-0.8 * r934d8dc49200 10/crawl-ref/source/player-act.cc: Fix melded weapon giving their brand to unarmed attacks. 05:10:45 03MarvinPA 07stone_soup-0.8 * r7cc33abb1374 10/crawl-ref/source/main.cc: Give a message when a golubria portal on the level closes 05:10:46 03kilobyte 07stone_soup-0.8 * re8a2f2524854 10/crawl-ref/source/player.cc: A harmless uninitialized variable. 05:10:47 03MarvinPA 07stone_soup-0.8 * rb7984313fe82 10/crawl-ref/source/ (dat/database/monspell.txt mon-data.h): Don't let Mennas shout or say stuff when casting spells 05:11:03 03galehar 07stone_soup-0.8 * r7b16204e8a63 10/crawl-ref/source/view.cc: Fix coming into view messages ignoring mislead. 05:11:06 03j-p-e-g 07stone_soup-0.8 * r6a989287bca7 10/crawl-ref/source/effects.cc: Special Airstrike message if struck while flying. (Joachim Schipper) 05:11:06 03galehar 07stone_soup-0.8 * rbd0cbbfe55cf 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-abil.cc: Always remove the mold when fungal colony is destroyed. 05:38:53 -!- Ashenzari has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:49:12 -!- Ashenzari has joined ##crawl-dev 05:49:13 -!- The topic of ##crawl-dev is: Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki | Long stuff to pastebin.ca please | Immortal Warwalrus and Crazy Yiuf forever. | Tentative 0.8 release date April 24th 06:06:12 -!- upsy has joined ##crawl-dev 06:06:14 -!- Zaba` has joined ##crawl-dev 06:07:35 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 06:08:00 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 06:19:16 moin 06:33:19 -!- upsy has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:56:14 03galehar * rcb071fa863bd 10/crawl-ref/source/dgn-overview.cc: Fix bad wrapping in overview screen. 06:58:16 03galehar * r20ec8c080f8d 10/crawl-ref/source/dgn-overview.cc: Remove a useless debugging line (oops). 07:36:36 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 07:36:49 glowing mold tiles (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3760) by Denzi 07:36:56 Morning 07:54:24 glau (L10 DrBe) ERROR in 'format.cc' at line 204: Stack underflow in string "0*+" (D:8) 08:05:01 -!- Zaba` has quit [Quit: Don't forget point symmetry.] 08:35:59 -!- galehar has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:42:25 5 scrolls in 3 scrolls due to fire crab's fire breathing? PFUI! 08:42:52 *5 scrolls in 3 turns catch fire due to fire crab's fire breathing cloud? PFUI! 08:55:32 Napkin: I see you had conservation and good rF 08:55:55 0+0, yeah 08:55:56 losing 80% scrolls in a couple turns is more common in my experience 08:56:26 my gf would say foooch! 09:17:20 Inter-level travel doesn't work on watery levels while permanently levitating (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3761) by Nexos 09:22:22 wizmode-compiled console build doesn't start (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3762) by jpeg 09:24:37 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 09:24:45 with CDO running frozen 0.8 and an upcoming major version bump, isn't it the perfect timing for this? https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:misc:experience_system 09:24:56 -!- jpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 09:25:39 galehar: how far along are you with the cloud fixes? 09:26:54 I read something about changing butchering, is anyone working on that? (Starting with a knife etc.) 09:27:03 jpeg: I have found the bug, I'm testing 09:27:10 me too :/ 09:27:15 ghallberg: I will soon 09:27:28 jpeg: that's twice ! 09:27:38 this time I had assigned the bug to me, though 09:27:38 bug is because of AC reduction 09:27:42 yeah 09:27:50 my bad, I didn't noticed 09:27:50 cloud_damage_output 09:28:13 go ahead, I won't be able to commit before tonight 09:28:14 I had it two hours ago, but got distracted by master failing to work for me :/ 09:28:25 galehar: Oh :( I was thinking it was a good place to get started with the codebase :P 09:28:45 galehar: sorry :( 09:29:00 ghallberg: well I haven't started yet and have plenty others thing I want to do, so go ahead 09:29:06 didn't realize until I had disconnected from the internet that the other bug was the same issue 09:29:19 jpeg: this should fix #3156 too 09:29:38 galehar: Cool, I'm gonna try at least. 09:29:52 galehar: so how did you go about fixing it? *curious* 09:30:17 ghallberg: the idea I have is to #define SLOT_BUTCHERING_KNIFE -3 09:30:31 I added a boolean passed through from cloud_is_harmless, but if there's a better way... :P 09:30:37 like we have for SLOT_BARE_HANDS 09:30:49 jpeg: debugging 09:31:03 oh you mean fixing, not finding 09:31:26 galehar: Ok, I'll take a look at it. 09:31:27 passing the maximum_damage boolean to _cloud_damage_output 09:34:09 right, that _is_ better :) 09:34:18 for some reason, I was convinced it was an integer value 09:35:27 ghallberg: then in player::slot_item(), if eq == EQ_WEAPON and item == SLOT_BUTCHERING_KNIFE, create a knife item and return it 09:36:05 galehar: hmm ok 09:36:41 galehar: What behaviour are we going for exactly? I can't seem to find it on the dev-wiki 09:36:48 and hack in food .cc to directly wield_weapon(SLOT_BUTCHERING_KNIFE) instead of looking for a butchering tool 09:36:55 ok 09:37:28 I don't think it's on the wiki. It's been discussed on mantis: https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=373 09:37:32 ok 09:39:25 -!- doy has joined ##crawl-dev 09:39:31 As I see it, the basic mechanism of having to wield a butchering doesn't change. But if you don't have any, you wield SLOT_BUTCHERING_KNIFE. That way, if you're interrupted, you still have the choice between switching back, or keeping your butchering knife in hands. 09:39:48 so nightstalker is really a pretty excellent mutation 09:40:20 galehar: And you start with am implicit knife lying around then? 09:41:02 so you can actually fight with this knife? 09:41:43 ghallberg: you have it in your backpack, but it's hidden. Codewise, it only comes to life when butchering. 09:41:48 jpeg: yes, why not? 09:42:03 i thought it wasn't supposed to take an inventory slot? 09:42:19 MarvinPA: it doesn't. Its slot is -3 09:42:21 so how could you fight with it? 09:42:39 you butcher, you're interrupted, you don't switch back. 09:42:58 galehar: Ok, then I know what to do. I'll get to work on it in an hour or so. 09:42:59 mm, that seems weird 09:43:03 Thanks for the pointers. 09:43:15 MarvinPA: why? 09:43:39 it's a real item, but is not really there 09:43:50 so you can fight with it, but can't enchant or bless it 09:43:54 if it's an available weapon to fight with, why not let people choose to swap to it? 09:43:56 seems inconsistent 09:44:03 right, and you'd have to add loads of special cases to prevent things like that 09:44:26 not that I'm suggesting it should be enchantable 09:44:41 Why would anyone wants to fight with a butchering knife? We can give it crappy stats. Worse than now. 09:44:42 but I do think it should be strictly butcher-only, no swapping 09:45:08 * doy agrees with jpeg 09:45:09 i'd rather just force a swap back to unarmed or whatever, yeah 09:45:54 why not. Forcing back to unarmed only cost 0.3 turns. 09:46:00 hmm... we are getting rid of knives in general (except for this implicit one), aren't we? 09:46:22 -!- jooosa has joined ##crawl-dev 09:46:23 i think so, yeah 09:46:39 -!- joosa has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:46:49 -!- jooosa is now known as joosa 09:46:49 dunno about the knife of accuracy, could be changed to a dagger, I guess 09:46:49 jpeg: yes. With my proposal, we would need to keep the item in the source, but we're just not generating any. 09:47:27 yeah, i think kilobyte suggested just to change the knife of accuracy and spriggan's knife to daggers (in terms of stats), the description can still call them knives 09:47:38 same as was done with the unrandart katana now that katanas are gone 09:47:40 and the weapon display would list "butchering knife" for the duration of butchering 09:47:41 why does this have to actually be an actual item again? 09:48:04 MarvinPA: why? If the point is to get rid of knives 09:48:22 or is this the same issue as the Captain's cutlass masquerading as an item type of its own? 09:48:25 We can also keep my idea but change the item type to misc. So it's not even a real weapon, it's really just a butchering tool. So whacking monster with it wouldn't be different than with a piece of bread. 09:48:37 oooh, I like that 09:49:02 then again, it doesn't make a difference to the player :P 09:49:22 I agree, that souns reasonable. 09:49:25 sounds* 09:50:32 i don't particularly see that it needs to be any kind of item either, just have the butchery messages start with "you start cutting up the corpse with your knife" or something like that 09:50:35 as long as it doesn't turn up in the menus for identification, enchantment etc. 09:50:45 * doy agrees with MarvinPA 09:51:27 now that I think of it, the basic question is whether we want to keep the current restrictions 09:51:42 (cursed blunt weapons, vampiric weapons, distortion) 09:51:44 Yeah, should interruptions be dangerous? 09:52:15 ghallberg: dangerous? It would stop you, like now. 09:52:27 if we don't then everything becomes really easy, flavour message only 09:52:33 galehar: That's what I meant. 09:52:37 the cursed blunt weapon part is at least somewhat interesting, i don't think interruptions during butchering are dangerous at all 09:52:38 hmm.. shouldn't the amulet of controlled flight rather be called amulet of controlled levitation, which causes flying (in Crawl terminology)? 09:52:39 though I rather like the restrictions 09:52:42 Feierabend! \o/ 09:53:11 Napkin: läuft auf CDO jetzt 0.8 oder trunk? 09:53:19 if we just made all swapping implicit, we could keep the wielding restrictions just through some code 09:53:20 If we want to keep the restrictions (and I think we do), then we'd better keep the mechanism and actually having the player unwield his weapon and switch to another item. 09:53:24 Napkin: also hi! 09:53:40 doy: but that's just more code. And duplicated. 09:53:57 I'll let you guys battle this out while I go shopping. 09:54:01 yes, if we _do_ keep the restrictions, having a fake item might actually be easier 09:54:15 galehar: why not just let everyone butcher barehanded 09:54:21 and force a switch to barehanded 09:54:44 adding a weird item into the situation seems like it just overcomplicates things 09:54:46 yeah, why not. 09:54:52 with barehanded implying wielding that Swiss knife every adventurer worth his name always carries around with him ;) 09:54:57 jpeg: right 09:55:13 the implementation is actually very similar to what I'm saying. 09:55:24 it's very similar, yes 09:55:52 You gan 0.2 turn in butchering time (unwield is 0.3, weapon switch is 0.5), but that's irrelevant. 09:55:52 and I we'll need to add flavour messages ("wield your butchering knife") anyway 09:56:38 so it could be a fake slot as described by galehar but without the implied item 09:56:51 and if you're an UC build, you can whack right away if interrupted, you don't have to unweild your butchering knife. 09:57:11 jpeg: noch trunk 09:57:19 jpeg: we don't even need another slot in that case. We just switch to bare hands, like trolls do 09:57:24 jpeg: soll ich switchen? 09:57:51 Napkin: nein, ich brauch das Feedback fürs cherry-picking 09:58:25 galehar: with a special message of stashing the knife 09:58:45 jpeg: is that even necessary? 09:58:51 jpeg: hehe, ok :) sag bescheid wenn.. so, jetzt durch den freitagsverkehr.. ciao o/ 09:58:57 "you unwield your dagger. you start butchering the corpse with your knife" 09:59:05 "you wield your dagger" 09:59:07 or whatever 09:59:21 reduces message spam too 09:59:22 doy: I meant when swapping from to unarmed and then back 09:59:45 i don't think it's even necessary in that case 09:59:53 just have the butchering message itself mention the knife 10:00:01 if you start butchering while unarmed just go straight to "you start butchering with your knife", yeah 10:00:10 seems fine to me, butchery is a pretty bad source of message spam already 10:00:12 also works 10:01:34 MarvinPA: it's been cleaned up of most spam. Now, it only says "You switch to k - dagger of draining for butchering" and "You switch back to j - mace" 10:01:36 but wait... why should you swap away from the dagger? 10:01:47 jpeg: or mace, or whatever 10:01:54 could remove both and just print "You start butchering with your %s" 10:01:59 galehar: artifact weapons are still annoying 10:02:16 doy: right, I was wondering for a moment whether we were giving up the blade/blunt difference 10:02:17 "you feel stupider, the weapon bursts into flames", etc 10:02:33 i muted all multiturn messages and things like butchery and swapping armour are much better, anyway (although yeah, randarts are a pain still) 10:03:41 doy: you sure? I removed the wield effect messages 10:03:50 ooo, it seems I've missed quite the discussion 10:04:07 galehar: oh, guess i've avoided using artifacts for butchering lately 10:04:08 (: 10:04:18 oh huh yeah, right you are 10:04:23 nifty 10:05:29 ahh 10:05:38 if the weapon you switch *to* is a randart you still get spammed 10:05:49 but not for the weapon you switch from 10:08:50 right 10:14:19 03j-p-e-g * r8d209ce801e1 10/crawl-ref/source/cloud.cc: Fix #3156, #3709: cloud safety checks getting randomized AC reductions. 10:26:39 back later 10:26:41 -!- jpeg has quit [] 10:27:11 -!- casmith789 has joined ##crawl-dev 10:27:58 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 10:32:52 -!- frogfrog has joined ##crawl-dev 10:36:32 !tell ghallberg: so I guess it's simpler to switch to bare hands. Use the claws logic for everyone and just change the message to knife when there's no claws. 10:36:35 I don't grok. Syntax is !tell PERSON MESSAGE. 10:36:44 !tell ghallberg so I guess it's simpler to switch to bare hands. Use the claws logic for everyone and just change the message to knife when there's no claws. 10:36:44 galehar: OK, I'll let ghallberg know. 10:38:32 yay! free butchering!? 10:41:41 -!- kronusdark has joined ##crawl-dev 10:42:46 Bad waypoints list display (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3763) by Nexos 10:46:03 hey, random query 10:46:16 would anyone be against empty quiver / unarmed showing up as "-) Nothing wielded" 10:46:34 right now it goes from "Nothing wielded" to "a) short sword", and it looks a bit weird 10:46:45 Henzell: Will you now? 10:46:45 ghallberg: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 10:46:58 this would also indicate to the players that they can wield '-' to become unarmed 10:46:59 Oh I hadn't ignored you here Henzell? 10:47:05 Good thing I guess :P 10:47:28 it'd be a simple patch, but i don't want to bother doing it unless people agree it's aesthetically worthwhile 10:49:31 sounds like it might be good 10:49:58 Eronarn: +1 10:50:05 Q- doesn't actually quiver nothing which really annoys me 10:50:32 because if you accidentally quiver a potion or something dumb it seems overly complicated to get rid of it :( 10:50:36 MarvinPA: then fix it :) 10:50:38 maybe it shou-efb 10:50:42 heh 10:50:52 currently it says "Reset throwing quiver to default" 10:50:52 i'll do my patch you do yours, DEAL 10:51:08 i'll take a look in a bit 10:54:48 -!- frogfrog has quit [Quit: Page closed] 10:59:33 hmm 10:59:37 do felids have any use for quiver at all? 11:00:08 -!- kronusdark has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi] 11:00:20 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:00:32 i'm thinking of changing the Qv: message if your current form can't throw 11:00:41 i don't think so 11:06:32 -!- galehar has quit [Quit: Page closed] 11:08:56 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 11:11:04 -!- upsy has joined ##crawl-dev 11:30:16 03galehar * ra9f80b79f629 10/crawl-ref/source/player-equip.cc: Make artefacts obey show_msgs. 11:30:26 03galehar * rf414b1f75d2a 10/crawl-ref/source/libutil.cc: Fix word wrapping counting 1 char for tags. 11:37:10 -!- bmh has joined ##crawl-dev 11:48:05 Improved display of Wp: and Qv: (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3765) by Eronarn 11:48:05 Crash while battling in the shoals (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3764) by ghend 12:07:13 -!- bmh has quit [Disconnected by services] 12:07:17 -!- bmh_away is now known as bmh 12:10:27 03kilobyte * r7376cb90056f 10/crawl-ref/source/ (initfile.cc libw32c.cc syscalls.h): Fix win64 compilation. 12:50:10 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 12:55:19 draining proposal: it gives you -skills. rather than going away with time like stat damage, you have to gain XP to clear the damage. each point of XP gained also contributes to reducing being skilldrained 12:55:53 should only be removable in that way, or by stuff like ely/zin abilities 12:56:00 Eronarn: that makes draining much less fearsome than its current state 12:56:04 not at all 12:56:16 oh? 12:56:30 current draining isn't 'fearsome', i don't know where you get that idea 12:56:52 it's just an inconvenience, except at low XLs where the per-level HP gain actually matters 12:57:09 or if you have a lot of XP in pool (like in v8 or something) 12:57:28 yeah. I was thinking of the stair dance between V7/V8 12:58:22 -!- bmh is now known as bmh_away 12:58:51 the stair dance for v8 has not all that much to do with draining 12:59:20 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:59:56 the xp pool will probably go away in a few days, unless someone raises a downside of the proposal we discussed with elliptic on one day, and MarvinPA/galehar/jpeg on another 13:00:13 so some alternative effect of draining is indeed needed 13:00:13 all the more reason to adjust how draining works :) 13:00:59 should I describe that proposal? Not sure if it matters for draining, except for no pool. 13:01:02 it could maybe drain a weighted average of stats >some-% of your highest stat 13:01:11 er, skills rather, not stats 13:01:30 what's the proposal? 13:01:34 an in, downward training? 13:01:35 so 10 8 7 2 3 = drains from the weighted average of the 10, 8, 7 skills. or something 13:02:15 kilobyte: link to discuddion/proposal? 13:02:37 and it should probably favor already-drained skills until they reach that threshold so that it drains stuff in an interesting way, rather than just making all your high level skills decline 13:02:42 ghallberg: no writeup on the wiki 13:02:54 kilobyte: Ok, possible to get a quick rundown? 13:03:41 kilobyte: not quite downward training: it shouldn't be permanent, but it should be lasting; i think an XP 'debt' mechanic would work well, and then the amount of XP debt you have gives a penalty to effective skill level 13:03:46 doy: there would be a switch between "automatic" and "manual" training. In the manual mode, XP you gain is immediately split between all skills you have turned on. 13:04:17 in the automatic one, it is weighted according to which skills you practiced 13:04:46 (in the interest of playability, what about... each 1 skill level drained goes away once you've gained 1/10th of a level you gain (using the virtual levels post-27, like felids do)) 13:05:02 and few/no consumables to help with this 13:05:28 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 13:05:31 allowing manual distribution like that sounds terribly fiddly 13:06:29 the automatic mode stands for "I don't know/don't care what to train, please do something reasonable", the manual mode for "I would victory dance it" 13:07:20 manual is certainly going to make things Interesting for a while 13:07:35 since you'll be able to directly specify levels of skills you want 13:14:49 I just did an 15-runer/1-Zig with victory dancing about every single point of xp until the end of living branches, and if you do that, it gives you a _huge_ boost over regular training 13:14:57 More than regeneration, it seems like trogg should give some sort of silence or antimagic type ability...perhaps an antimagic perma-brand? 13:15:23 as in, Tornado before Lair sub-branches, necromutation before Crypt, decent fighting, ... 13:16:22 -!- casmith_789 has joined ##crawl-dev 13:16:44 kilobyte: you're talking about when you use this manual mode you've implemented? 13:16:50 Cryp71c: perma-brand? He already overwrites 10% of all his gifts with antimagic, should this ratio be bigger? 13:17:05 Cryp71c: I'm talking about my last game 13:17:22 ie, you can _already_ do that by victory dancing 13:17:27 kilobyte: he puts antimagic on 10% of his gifts? 13:17:31 -!- casmith789 has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:17:52 yeah... this is the only way to get it on rare weapons, too 13:18:21 my last win used an antimagic dtrident gifted by trog 13:18:24 * Zaba had almost no internet connectivity for 3 days 13:18:32 did I miss anything important? 13:19:29 too bad the brand quite sucks 13:20:05 it can mostly disable big baddies in a few blows... it's just that most opponents don't use magic 13:20:34 the brand was pretty solid against liches 13:20:59 I don't know whether it still works against orb of fire, but it was great when it did that, too 13:21:20 the brand is unfortunately bugged so that I have no idea what it works against 13:21:27 given that it works against nagas 13:21:42 kilobyte: hrm, I've had him all game (even had faith on at some point), and although my highest weapon skill is slings (so I've gotten lots of ammo), the 16 or 18 weapons I have gotten periodically from him have not had antimagic on them. 13:21:56 kilobyte: can antimagic just show up as "runed" or whatever? 13:22:07 yes... 13:22:35 ah, nvm then. 13:22:38 0.9^18 isn't that small anyway 13:22:38 That's probably where I saw them. 13:23:18 ?? erocrawl 13:23:19 erocrawl[1/6]: L) EroCrawl (unstable): Lava Orcs, Octopodes, Square LOS 13:23:22 ^ Zaba 13:23:59 kilobyte: my point is just that when victory dancing, you do that with the assumption that your other skills will be trained at least somewhat 13:24:31 if manual means 100% of xp goes into the enabled skills, that'll require a huge amount of enabling and disabling things 13:24:48 maybe force 25-50% of xp to always go through the automatic algorithm? 13:25:27 yeah, it was proposed too... but this would just mean people will victory dance that 50% 13:25:53 -!- casmith_789 is now known as casmith789 13:25:58 i think that sounds less bad than forcing people to enable and disable things constantly 13:26:06 -!- monqy has joined ##crawl-dev 13:26:26 also, how would they victory dance that 50% any more than they would in automatic mode 13:28:52 you don't have to use the manual mode when you don't want to 13:29:09 we'd try to make automatic do the right thing most of the time 13:29:11 "you don't have to use elbereth when you don't want to" 13:29:14 d: 13:29:39 manual mode when done right would be a huge advantage, as you mentioned a few minutes ago 13:29:42 well, try to play NetHack without using the cheat code... 13:30:06 and saying "well, you can have this huge advantage if you don't mind tedious things" is bad 13:30:45 uhm, how is flipping a switch tedious, compared to victory dancing after every fight? 13:31:00 keeping track of modes is more effort than direct actions 13:31:22 "whoops, i forgot to switch back to automatic", "whoops, i forgot to switch back to manual" etc etc 13:31:25 <+Cryp71c> More than regeneration, it seems like trogg should give some sort of silence or antimagic type ability...perhaps an antimagic perma-brand? 13:31:38 i like the idea of trog having a battlecry ability that forces stuff to berserk 13:31:48 uhm, you get told when a skill increases... 13:32:07 not sure how that's relevant? 13:32:43 when a skill you think you have enough increases, you can disable it 13:34:09 this is the difference: you think "hmmm, i need more spellcasting skill", so you victory dance a bit and gain some spellcasting skill, vs "hmmm, i need more spellcasting skill", so you enable manual mode with spellcasting enabled, and then have to remember to disable it later 13:34:17 the second one is definitely a lot more tedious 13:34:26 er, what? 13:34:44 victory dancing is something that takes effort after every single XP gain 13:35:15 mental effort is what i'm referring to 13:35:20 not number of keystrokes 13:35:28 doy: I disagree, the former is more tedious, since players don't victory dance their skills and then immediately turn stuff back to "normal" if they want spellcasting skill up, they typically already have most other skills off and already have to remember to turn them back on later. 13:35:40 there's little point in disabling a skill at any moment other than after it just increased, and you get told about that too 13:35:56 In which case the latter is actually the same as the former, except you don't have to victory dance. 13:36:03 Cryp71c: what does turning skills on or off have to do with victory dancing 13:36:16 i victory dance, and i basically never disable skills 13:36:56 doy: so even though you know you want to get spellcasting (or air, or whatever) up as quickly as possible, you're also simultaneously ok with xp going into whatever skills willy-nilly while you're in combat with multiple monsters? 13:37:16 Cryp71c: sure, my other skills need to go up too 13:37:18 what about having an option where you can input when you want a manual thing to turn off? 13:37:28 Eronarn: how would you describe that 13:37:29 so "enable m, until >10" 13:37:46 hmmm 13:37:48 Eronarn: that would solve doy's quandry, it would seem, but I would find that to be far too elaborate. 13:38:04 doy: press a modifier key or an additional key, press skill, "Train this skill until what skill level?" 13:38:25 this would have the benefit of working in either automatic or manual mode 13:38:35 it makes sense as an option for either 13:38:52 Eronarn: does kilo's system allow for skills to be turned off in automatic mode? 13:38:59 I hadn't asked him about that particular aspect. 13:39:00 i don't know 13:39:02 i would assume so 13:39:13 (I would assume not) :P 13:39:17 i guess the thing is, victory dancing gives me enough control to be able to say "i want to train this skill faster", rather than "i want to train only this skill and nothing else" 13:39:42 -!- Zaba has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:39:43 and it seems to me like "train this faster" is the more useful case 13:40:00 because not training other skills at all sounds like a terrible idea 13:40:03 Cryp71c: well, the way i see it: manual = train this list of skills, automatic = do manual except with skills you've been using 13:40:21 so there's no real reason to disallow overriding automatic's choices 13:40:36 Cryp71c: at least with galehar's suggestions, yeah 13:40:58 and if you have both manual and automatic able to disable specifics skills, then "disable this after a certain point" is a useful, sensible command for both 13:42:49 I'm heading to dinner now, but eronarn's suggestion sounds good to me 13:45:41 Eronarn: if we "disallowed overriding", this would mean people will artificially use skills they want to train 13:45:50 which has a name: victory dancing :p 13:46:35 yiuf should do a victory dance if he kills you 13:46:48 ...or maybe donald, since he's "just like you". 13:48:11 hehe 13:50:07 are you going to put a page up for this stuff? if so, i'll do an addition with my draining suggestion 13:50:38 not right now, my brother came 13:50:53 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 13:51:13 (away) 14:42:09 for the manual mode "disable when the skill reaches this point", the best interface for that would probably be something like how dropping items works 14:42:23 where, if you want to drop 10 of a stack, you just type 10 and then the letter of it 14:42:34 good idea 14:53:45 -!- eith has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:54:16 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 15:00:23 prolly better off asking this here: what's very noisy (as a value)... like 50? 100? 200? specifically for dgn.noisy(loudness 15:01:11 noisy is measured in squares 15:01:28 hm 15:01:46 <8 means it won't hit out of LOS, but might hit around corners and such 15:02:02 spells like fireball or LRD are often in the 20s range 15:02:24 however, noise changes have made it such that it doesn't hit everything in a 20 radius, but instead intervening walls and such matter 15:03:31 hm 15:06:47 branches also have an ambient noise level, which affects things too 15:07:03 things in the crypt sound louder than the equivalent thing happening in lair, etc 15:11:16 well, this is for a new portal so I'm not concerned about that 15:11:55 I want to wake the entire area up - setting it to 1k does the trick, and I don't really need to be subtle about it, so I'll just use that 15:23:19 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 15:30:57 as I said earlier, I think it's the perfect timing for that: https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:misc:experience_system 15:31:03 any opinion? 15:42:22 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:48:32 -!- eith has quit [] 15:48:54 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 15:57:50 -!- ZChris13 has joined ##crawl-dev 15:59:20 compilation error regarding shfolder.h on Win32 (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3766) by jpeg 16:30:33 -!- evilmike has quit [] 16:39:05 -!- ZChris13 has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:23:33 -!- ZChris13 has joined ##crawl-dev 17:47:33 -!- galehar has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:49:52 Doorway multibounce might be back. (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3767) by theropod 17:51:33 -!- eith has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:34:29 -!- valrus has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:34:50 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 18:39:33 -!- Mu_ has quit [Quit: Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place.] 18:51:45 -!- ZChris13 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:57:53 -!- upsy has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:03:35 -!- ZChris13 has joined ##crawl-dev 19:37:53 -!- syllogism has quit [] 20:16:58 -!- ZChris13 has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:22:44 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:34:21 -!- ZChris13 has joined ##crawl-dev 20:55:45 Item mimics change type when they teleport. (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3768) by elliptic 21:06:08 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:19:33 -!- casmith789 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:22:36 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 21:22:37 03kilobyte * r43a2d9009c3f 10/crawl-ref/source/initfile.cc: Fix win32 compilation with old version of mingw headers. 21:22:42 Evening 21:22:42 Cryp71c: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 21:22:43 03kilobyte * rbce594f50e77 10/crawl-ref/source/makefile: Rebuild icon.o when compiler flags change. 21:22:46 !messages 21:22:47 (1/1) casmith789 said (5h 16m ago): You were right. V:8 with shield of the gong is hilarious 21:23:19 !tell casmith789 hilariously retarded. Instead of dancing just the gaurds up, you get to dance EVERYTHING up, woo -_- 21:23:20 Cryp71c: OK, I'll let casmith789 know. 21:29:22 same with Tornado and *storm 21:30:01 although in that case, you dance just mana 21:31:13 Because everything dies, right? 21:35:57 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 21:36:17 the big spells can kill anything but leave you tapped out. Normally, this is an issue, but not when you can just walk upstairs and wait. 21:37:25 actually, not that different from strong enough melee, except for s/mana/hp/ 21:59:43 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:00:13 03eronarn * r600c04b41cfc 10/crawl-ref/source/ (item_use.cc item_use.h): Change function to be a more general check. 22:00:14 03eronarn * r522c0ac7dfe7 10/crawl-ref/source/output.cc: Output shows "-) Unavailable" or the like for various combinations of cannot/not wield/quiver stuff. 22:00:25 03eronarn * r43e33a5301d2 10/crawl-ref/source/ (main.cc misc.cc traps.cc): Leaving/entering berserk/nets redraws quiver. 22:13:59 -!- Pseudonut has joined ##crawl-dev 22:18:41 -!- ZChris13 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:22:40 -!- ZChris13 has joined ##crawl-dev 22:30:18 -!- ZChris13 has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:35:55 -!- ZChris13 has joined ##crawl-dev 22:36:22 -!- Pseudonut has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:47:24 Just a quick question for any devs, so I know whether or not I should submit a bug report: 22:47:36 Should trees be appearing on any Crypt levels? 22:47:49 As in big foresty groups of them? 22:48:49 I would have thought Crypt would be devoid of any plants, trees, or just about anything else living (Barring the occasional necromancer). 22:49:19 And the Crypt level I'm on has big groups of trees, so it seems like it might be a bug, but perhaps it's intended to be possible. 22:50:27 it's a bug for the living kind 22:50:33 there is a crypt vault now with dead/recolored trees iirc 22:53:19 These are all big groups of living trees, like you'd see in certain Spriggan vaults for Lair. 22:53:30 So report it, yes? 22:57:06 preferably with a save if you don't recognize the vault's name 22:58:14 Will do. One report with screenshot and save, coming up. 22:58:53 great! 23:02:55 Done and done. 23:03:04 Thanks for letting me know. 23:06:22 Living trees in Crypt? (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3769) by Twilight 23:13:06 -!- bmh has joined ##crawl-dev 23:16:22 -!- bmh_away has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:39:50 Windows development builds on CDO updated to: 0.9.0-a0-25-g43e33a5 23:48:43 -!- Twinge has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:48:52 -!- Twinge has joined ##crawl-dev 23:54:37 Unstable branch on CDO updated to: 0.9.0-a0-25-g43e33a5 (32) 23:56:48 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.9.0-a0-25-g43e33a5 (32)