00:12:20 Grey draconian water speed and behavior are inconsistent (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3718) by OG17 00:15:04 -!- Twinge_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:16:00 -!- Twinge has joined ##crawl-dev 00:28:46 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.8.0-a0-6202-g2da05a8 (32) 00:48:20 -!- Ashenzari has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:48:55 -!- Ashenzari has joined ##crawl-dev 00:48:55 -!- The topic of ##crawl-dev is: Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki | Long stuff to pastebin.ca please | Immortal Warwalrus and Crazy Yiuf forever. 01:40:49 -!- RjY_ has quit [Quit: Reconnecting] 01:40:53 -!- RjY has joined ##crawl-dev 02:09:40 -!- bmh has joined ##crawl-dev 02:09:40 -!- bmh has quit [Changing host] 02:09:40 -!- bmh has joined ##crawl-dev 02:13:37 -!- bmh has quit [Client Quit] 02:38:40 -!- upsy has joined ##crawl-dev 02:39:00 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 02:39:33 -!- Kurper_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:49:35 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 02:49:57 hi 03:15:56 -!- casmith_789 has joined ##crawl-dev 03:19:07 kilobyte: you broke tiles 03:19:11 tilereg-menu.cc: In member function 'virtual void MenuRegion::place_entries()': tilereg-menu.cc:223: error: 'class formatted_string' has no member named 'substr' tilereg-menu.cc:226: error: 'class formatted_string' has no member named 'substr' 03:19:17 -!- elly_ has joined ##crawl-dev 03:22:54 -!- elly has quit [*.net *.split] 03:22:55 -!- kilobyte has quit [*.net *.split] 03:22:55 -!- varmin has quit [*.net *.split] 03:22:55 -!- Jordan7hm has quit [*.net *.split] 03:22:55 -!- casmith789 has quit [*.net *.split] 03:22:56 -!- MakMorn has quit [*.net *.split] 03:22:56 -!- elliptic has quit [*.net *.split] 03:22:57 -!- Eronarn has quit [*.net *.split] 03:22:57 -!- dexap has quit [*.net *.split] 03:22:57 -!- jlewis has quit [*.net *.split] 03:22:57 -!- monqy has quit [*.net *.split] 03:22:57 -!- stabwound has quit [*.net *.split] 03:23:00 -!- kilobyte has joined ##crawl-dev 03:23:00 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 03:23:00 -!- Eronarn has joined ##crawl-dev 03:23:00 -!- dexap has joined ##crawl-dev 03:23:00 -!- jlewis has joined ##crawl-dev 03:23:00 -!- monqy has joined ##crawl-dev 03:23:00 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 03:23:11 -!- MakMorn has joined ##crawl-dev 03:23:53 -!- varmin has joined ##crawl-dev 03:43:25 moin moin! 04:02:00 Napkin: what about having gruesome on CDO? 04:02:15 sure! 04:02:24 the more the merrier ;) 04:02:32 no saves, no rc; DGLizing would be adding -name and logging of deaths/wins 04:03:14 what software is required to compile and run it? 04:04:22 fpc, not sure which parts exactly 04:04:48 let's try? 04:05:26 do you need to add clear-screen code? 04:06:02 ah, DGL still uses that hack... might be a good idea 04:06:48 http://www.gruesomegames.com/ 04:07:02 that's all we have? that zip to download? 04:09:32 I had to correct some issues already 04:10:21 including a tiny little detail which was the input loop doing a busy wait for keypresses, taking 100% CPU :p 04:10:51 wait a bit, creating repository 04:11:16 http://angband.pl/git/gruesome 04:12:13 my display of lurk kills is ugly, should be corrected 04:12:48 the player's glyph was a black space with a cursor -- a nasty interface screw. I changed it to a bright pink & -- probably going way to the other side... 04:12:52 oooh... created ssh://git@git.develz.org/gruesome.git 04:13:21 (@ is taken by, uhm, food) 04:13:52 many trailing whitespace. 04:14:01 trying to rebase against your repository 04:14:08 warning: squelched 2618 whitespace errors 04:14:08 warning: 2623 lines add whitespace errors. 04:14:09 just reset --hard to it 04:14:19 am i doing something wrong? 04:14:21 since you had no actual changes 04:14:25 ok 04:15:39 no need to hurry or put your work in before I add some polish 04:16:31 -!- monqy has quit [Quit: hello] 04:16:35 not much to do, fortunately -- nicer display, pink & and a way to know the current range of spells 04:16:45 alright, pushed 04:16:56 had to allow user crawl forced push for a moment 04:17:11 http://git.develz.org/?p=gruesome.git;a=summary 04:17:40 nah, Adam.. almost no work here at the moment... quarter end freeze 04:17:45 happy for anything you bring up ;) 04:19:02 ok... so please tell me what glyph to use for the big bad ugly grue who happens to be the protagonist 04:19:04 source and repository checkout is at ~crawl/source/gruesome 04:19:40 let's change food and put @ as player? 04:19:44 cursor on a black space is an interface screw, my pink & is bad, @ is taken 04:19:53 no, @ are adventurers 04:19:55 is % taken too? 04:20:14 kilobyte> (@ is taken by, uhm, food) 04:20:22 taken by food and adventurers? :-O 04:20:24 it's important for the game's theme... since it's a role reversal and you're eating those pesky guys 04:20:32 ah, ok 04:20:35 not "and" :) 04:20:48 kilobyte> no, @ are adventurers 04:20:50 kilobyte> (@ is taken by, uhm, food) 04:20:51 the grue, is, well... a humanitarian 04:20:55 stop confusing me! ;-P 04:21:03 ah :D 04:21:24 well.. is there any hint on what race out protagonist is? 04:21:33 grue :p 04:21:46 anything like that similar in crawl? 04:22:07 maybe ping & is not that bad? :D 04:22:46 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grue_%28monster%29 04:22:58 uhm.. kilobyte? there is no debian package for FPC, is there? 04:23:31 BlankDiploma the Destroyer (L16 NaFE) ERROR in 'format.cc' at line 204: Stack underflow in string "0*+" (D:16) 04:24:23 what about gpc? "The GNU Pascal compiler" - would that be a viable alternative? 04:25:31 gpc-4.1 is available in lenny, kilobyte 04:25:48 no, gpc is a coprolith :( Unmaintained since forever, I doubt if it would work. 04:26:27 squeeze has fpc 2.4.0-2 04:27:14 ah, found it... there was some licensing problem in a library that, due to maintainers inaction, caused the release team to temporarily drop fpc from lenny 04:27:25 ah, ok 04:28:29 should I backport it for you? 04:28:40 not sure it's worth 04:28:48 wait, let me check to install it from squeeze 04:28:59 when are you migrating to your new server? 04:29:06 i will have to move to the new server until the end of the month anyways, and it'll have squeeze 04:30:08 I like Unstoppable 04:30:43 the movie? 04:30:45 can we get it to cdo too? ;) 04:30:48 moin Eino :) 04:30:52 Good morning :) 04:31:03 from gruesome games 04:31:08 Keskitalo: meow! 04:31:58 ok, need your help, kilobyte: 04:32:12 i want to install as little as possible: fp-compiler fp-units-rtl 04:32:15 that's all so far 04:32:17 and i get: 04:32:34 oh.. just Notes and Warnings 04:32:41 source.pas(516,16) Note: Local variable "q" not used 04:32:41 source.pas(516,19) Note: Local variable "r" not used 04:32:41 source.pas(1077,7) Note: Local variable "j" not used 04:32:41 source.pas(1760,37) Warning: Variable "lurkcount" does not seem to be initialized 04:32:44 source.pas(1796,36) Warning: Variable "retreatcount" does not seem to be initialized 04:32:47 source.pas(1841,28) Warning: Variable "shadowturns" does not seem to be initialized 04:32:50 --- 04:32:52 but i have a binary 04:34:10 kilobyte: heyah 04:38:05 what now, kilobyte? How do I start the binary? 04:38:36 oh, it fails for me too 04:38:56 oh? 04:38:59 nono, i got a binary 04:43:43 -!- elly_ has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:43:43 -!- st_ has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:43:43 -!- jld has quit [*.net *.split] 04:43:44 -!- RjY has quit [*.net *.split] 04:43:44 -!- MarvinPA has quit [*.net *.split] 04:43:44 -!- Napkin has quit [*.net *.split] 04:43:44 -!- Pseudonut has quit [*.net *.split] 04:43:44 -!- due has quit [*.net *.split] 04:43:44 -!- dazzle_ has quit [*.net *.split] 04:43:44 -!- lorimer has quit [*.net *.split] 04:43:44 -!- Gretell has quit [*.net *.split] 04:43:45 -!- Eifeltrampel has quit [*.net *.split] 04:43:45 -!- Hehfiel has quit [*.net *.split] 04:43:45 -!- Zannick has quit [*.net *.split] 04:43:45 -!- Zao has quit [*.net *.split] 04:43:46 -!- joosa has quit [*.net *.split] 04:43:46 -!- kilobyte has quit [*.net *.split] 04:43:46 -!- elliptic has quit [*.net *.split] 04:43:46 -!- Eronarn has quit [*.net *.split] 04:43:46 -!- dexap has quit [*.net *.split] 04:43:46 -!- jlewis has quit [*.net *.split] 04:43:47 -!- stabwound has quit [*.net *.split] 04:43:47 -!- Noeda has quit [*.net *.split] 04:43:48 -!- djinni has quit [*.net *.split] 04:43:48 -!- Neovangl1st has quit [*.net *.split] 04:43:48 -!- OG17 has quit [*.net *.split] 04:43:49 -!- gaffe has quit [*.net *.split] 04:43:49 -!- Keskitalo has quit [*.net *.split] 04:43:49 -!- bhaak has quit [*.net *.split] 04:43:49 -!- CIA-45 has quit [*.net *.split] 04:43:49 -!- Excedrin has quit [*.net *.split] 04:43:49 -!- greensnark has quit [*.net *.split] 04:43:50 -!- jarpiain has quit [*.net *.split] 04:43:50 -!- Henzell has quit [*.net *.split] 04:43:50 -!- bf has quit [*.net *.split] 04:43:50 -!- ivan`` has quit [*.net *.split] 04:43:50 -!- Sequell has quit [*.net *.split] 04:43:50 -!- blackpenguin has quit [*.net *.split] 04:43:51 -!- Zaba has quit [*.net *.split] 04:43:51 -!- varmin has quit [*.net *.split] 04:43:52 -!- Guest91630 has quit [*.net *.split] 04:43:52 -!- Twilight-1 has quit [*.net *.split] 04:43:52 -!- felirx has quit [*.net *.split] 04:43:52 -!- galehar has quit [*.net *.split] 04:43:52 -!- MakMorn has quit [*.net *.split] 04:43:53 -!- casmith_789 has quit [*.net *.split] 04:43:53 -!- upsy has quit [*.net *.split] 04:43:53 -!- Twinge has quit [*.net *.split] 04:43:54 -!- evilmike has quit [Ping timeout: 279 seconds] 04:43:54 -!- rax has quit [Ping timeout: 279 seconds] 04:49:13 -!- rax has joined ##crawl-dev 04:49:13 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 04:49:13 -!- evilmike has joined ##crawl-dev 04:49:13 -!- varmin has joined ##crawl-dev 04:49:13 -!- MakMorn has joined ##crawl-dev 04:49:13 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 04:49:13 -!- jlewis has joined ##crawl-dev 04:49:13 -!- dexap has joined ##crawl-dev 04:49:13 -!- Eronarn has joined ##crawl-dev 04:49:13 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 04:49:13 -!- kilobyte has joined ##crawl-dev 04:49:13 -!- casmith_789 has joined ##crawl-dev 04:49:13 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 04:49:13 -!- upsy has joined ##crawl-dev 04:49:13 -!- RjY has joined ##crawl-dev 04:49:13 -!- Twinge has joined ##crawl-dev 04:49:13 -!- Hehfiel has joined ##crawl-dev 04:49:13 -!- jld has joined ##crawl-dev 04:49:13 -!- Noeda has joined ##crawl-dev 04:49:13 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 04:49:13 -!- djinni has joined ##crawl-dev 04:49:13 -!- ivan has joined ##crawl-dev 04:49:13 -!- Sequell has joined ##crawl-dev 04:49:13 -!- Guest91630 has joined ##crawl-dev 04:49:13 -!- Twilight-1 has joined ##crawl-dev 04:49:13 -!- felirx has joined ##crawl-dev 04:49:13 -!- Zannick has joined ##crawl-dev 04:49:13 -!- Excedrin has joined ##crawl-dev 04:49:13 -!- blackpenguin has joined ##crawl-dev 04:49:13 -!- Napkin has joined ##crawl-dev 04:49:13 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 04:49:13 -!- greensnark has joined ##crawl-dev 04:49:13 -!- Zao has joined ##crawl-dev 04:49:13 -!- Neovangl1st has joined ##crawl-dev 04:49:13 -!- Pseudonut has joined ##crawl-dev 04:49:13 -!- due has joined ##crawl-dev 04:49:13 -!- OG17 has joined ##crawl-dev 04:49:13 -!- gaffe has joined ##crawl-dev 04:49:13 -!- dazzle_ has joined ##crawl-dev 04:49:13 -!- lorimer has joined ##crawl-dev 04:49:13 -!- Gretell has joined ##crawl-dev 04:49:13 -!- CIA-45 has joined ##crawl-dev 04:49:13 -!- bhaak has joined ##crawl-dev 04:49:13 -!- Keskitalo has joined ##crawl-dev 04:49:13 -!- jarpiain has joined ##crawl-dev 04:49:13 -!- Henzell has joined ##crawl-dev 04:49:13 -!- bf has joined ##crawl-dev 04:49:13 -!- joosa has joined ##crawl-dev 04:49:13 -!- Eifeltrampel has joined ##crawl-dev 04:52:15 -!- elly has joined ##crawl-dev 04:58:20 Enter note: HeyXXXXlolXmyXspaceXbarXisXproducingXXX's 04:58:52 Thank god we don't use space for jump. 05:00:28 -!- galehar has quit [] 05:05:37 -!- twb has joined ##crawl-dev 05:09:54 -!- twb has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:12:32 Napkin: er, wut? Where did you manage to get that? 05:15:54 moin 05:19:42 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:20:27 'friendly' monsters in arena don't use all their abilities (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3719) by ghend 05:22:09 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 05:22:59 kilobyte: erisdiscordia having set space as keybinding (instead of macro) for X ;) 05:24:33 so.. are you working on the parameters, kilobyte? 05:29:16 actually, right now doing some actual work :( 05:29:24 damn ;) 05:32:29 "wor" :( 05:32:32 ... "work". 05:32:49 always same shit on bloody monday ;> 05:36:28 Tiles compile broken (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3720) by galehar 05:43:03 -!- Ashenzari has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:43:43 -!- Ashenzari has joined ##crawl-dev 05:43:43 -!- The topic of ##crawl-dev is: Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki | Long stuff to pastebin.ca please | Immortal Warwalrus and Crazy Yiuf forever. 06:09:53 -!- not_evilmike has joined ##crawl-dev 06:10:21 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 06:12:20 -!- Twinge_ has joined ##crawl-dev 06:12:42 -!- evilmike has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:12:46 -!- casmith_789 has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:12:46 -!- upsy has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:12:48 -!- not_evilmike is now known as evilmike 06:12:56 -!- casmith_789 has joined ##crawl-dev 06:12:59 -!- upsy has joined ##crawl-dev 06:13:01 -!- Twinge has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:31:05 -!- casmith_789 is now known as casmith789 06:37:34 -!- upsy has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:37:49 -!- upsy has joined ##crawl-dev 06:48:28 -!- galehar has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:48:33 03galehar * rcfe50050c02d 10/crawl-ref/source/items.cc: Prevent ice form from picking items at the bottom of deep water. 06:54:05 -!- Keskitalo has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:54:11 -!- Keskitalo has joined ##crawl-dev 07:04:10 Ctrl-O screen is line-wrapping incorrectly (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3721) by elliptic 07:06:05 -!- Pseudonut has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:08:34 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 07:11:44 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 07:14:26 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 07:17:55 Erik is playing again :) 07:18:46 oh really? 07:23:44 yes! 07:23:52 erisdiscordi 07:23:53 a 07:24:44 I've been helping my Go teacher to get into Crawl (he downloaded it on his own), and there were a lot of things I'd change :) 07:29:47 hi dpeg 07:29:51 -!- eith has quit [] 07:30:09 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 07:32:14 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 07:32:17 galehar: Hi! 07:32:31 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 07:32:40 Ash feedback on the tavern is interesting 07:32:48 Morning 07:35:48 Everyone crawling out of their beds? :P 07:37:34 Yep 07:43:46 -!- evilmike has quit [] 08:02:58 Hrm, CAO's trunk build's ctrl-o screen (where it lists the gods) is totally clobbered. 08:03:05 (on 80x24) 08:10:46 yes, reported BR 08:11:56 Can anyone see if someone touched that part of the code? (I aligned the gods back then. Done manually, because god names are of different length.) 08:34:38 It seems to me as if all console output apart from the HUD pretends the screens has 75 (or so) columns rather than 80. 08:47:45 found it, the old code _tried_ to wordwrap it at 75 columns but it was broken 08:48:08 I fixed a bug in the word-wrapping function, and you can see the result :p 08:48:36 :) 08:48:50 kilobyte: can you give Ctrl-O give its 80 columns again? 08:49:15 btw, the new dgl is awesome -- who did that? paxed? 08:49:32 actually, word-wrapping is pointless there since all lines are fixed width anyway. For now, I'll just set it to the number of columns. 08:50:53 yes, that is true 08:51:12 screens like ^, %, Ctrl-O should shun wrapping 08:51:24 also ?? etc. I guess 09:05:20 -!- RjY_ has joined ##crawl-dev 09:06:44 -!- RjY has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:06:53 -!- jld has quit [*.net *.split] 09:07:56 -!- jld has joined ##crawl-dev 09:20:05 -!- jld has quit [*.net *.split] 09:20:26 -!- jld has joined ##crawl-dev 09:21:28 you can use the new weapon meld to break out of the obsidian's axe mesmerisation. 09:23:52 galehar: bug or feature? 09:24:46 03j-p-e-g * r3663c5663af9 10/crawl-ref/source/ (food.cc invent.cc): Fix #3319: Don't prevent butcher swap with temporary distortion brand. 09:28:13 -!- upsy has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:33:15 dpeg: I don't know. Looks like a bug to me. 09:42:17 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 09:49:24 i wouldn't consider it a bug - you can get out of the negative effects of a lot of things by transforming 09:52:34 surely it isn't desirable to encourage obsidian axe users to memorize spider form or whatever, though 09:54:38 it breaks when swapping it out though, doesn't it 09:54:52 pretty sure i saw casmith just uncursing it in advance of needing to unwield it 09:55:16 hm? 09:55:25 oh yeah 10:03:12 people shouldn't be using spider form as a replacement for remove curse scrolls if that's what's going on 10:05:01 exactly 10:06:02 -!- Noeda is now known as Adeon 10:06:54 we can either keep the mesmerising effect when the weapon is melded, or prevent transforming when wielding it cursed 10:07:21 -!- RjY_ is now known as RjY 10:11:15 galehar: the former might be more natural 10:15:48 polystyrus (L9 TrBe) (D:8) 10:19:39 like, similar to current silly behaviour of melded ponderous? 10:23:49 !lm polystyrus type=crash -log 10:23:51 3. polystyrus, XL9 TrBe, T:5603 (milestone): http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/polystyrus/crash-polystyrus-20110404-151549.txt 10:26:31 galehar: could just, in general, make the mesm effect last until you kill the thing, rather than until unwield 10:27:02 03kilobyte * r9a06c36acb50 10/crawl-ref/source/ (fontwrapper-ft.cc tilereg-menu.cc): Fix tiles compile. 10:27:05 03kilobyte * r6bcfdf06c20a 10/crawl-ref/source/ (dgn-overview.cc libutil.cc): Correct the dungeon overview screen on small terminals. 10:27:14 maybe that could work 10:33:20 the effect itself seemed a bit spammy, btw 10:33:33 it might be better to have it kick in only some of the time, e.g. in high tension 10:47:58 -!- upsy has joined ##crawl-dev 11:02:56 -!- galehar has quit [Quit: Page closed] 11:10:20 03j-p-e-g * rca26cf9097ac 10/crawl-ref/source/player-equip.cc: Fix #3217: equipping sInv artefact not reactivating autopickup. 11:16:42 so here's a question... 11:16:54 if parrying goes in with weapon effects, should it grant +EV, or +SH? 11:17:15 i think +SH might be more accurate: it has fall-off from multiple attacks, and the attack did hit, just your weapon instead of you 11:17:30 4.1a does EV 11:18:08 i'd just make it SH, except SH for a more general 'block stuff' score is clearly wrong 11:18:46 so it'd be the merits of having a better abbreviation vs. the downsides of changing the abbreviation 11:19:38 (then again, it might be nice to not have both Shield skill and SH meaning different things - kind of like how you have Dodging, and then EV, rather than Dodging skill and Dodge score) 11:22:11 -!- upsy has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:30:50 -!- Kurper has joined ##crawl-dev 11:30:53 -!- upsy has joined ##crawl-dev 11:37:45 Eronarn: so what? you're thinking of the positives of having a Parry stat, like EV, AC and SH? 11:38:30 -!- edlothiol has quit [Quit: edlothiol] 11:38:45 There could both shields and parry and still a single stat (which might then be renamed from "SH" to something else) 11:39:20 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 11:42:00 dpeg: right, that's what i think is the ideally best approach - but, it is a change 11:42:17 Cryp71c: we don't need a fourth stat; the question is whether parries fit better in EV or SH 11:42:57 parries don't have to be hard blocks; they can be just knocking a hit to the side 11:43:10 so they could legitimately be lumped into EV 11:44:03 but - if we open up SH to parries, we may as well at the same time open it up to forcefields, allies that jump into the line of fire for you, or other interposing effects 11:44:50 i can't think of too many effects that would not map cleanly to such a 'dodge hit, block hit, absorb hit' 3-stat system 11:45:24 yes, three is good 11:45:34 back later 11:46:11 Eronarn: the mechanics of a parry more closely relate to shield mechanics than actual dodging. 11:46:47 The renamed stat could be "Deflection" "Deflect" or something similar, since that's technically what you're doing (very few "blocks" with a shield are outright blocks, especially for heavier weapons, they're just deflections) 11:48:11 yeah... one thing that would be nice is, say, taking current EV values and shifting some of them into said new stat 11:48:35 Eronarn: you mean a 4th stat? What Ev values would you roll over? 11:48:51 Cryp71c: no, i mean - taking what is currently default EV, and moving some of it into default SH 11:49:07 so that even shieldless characters get some deflection from the start 11:49:12 Right. 11:49:42 I could live with that. You'd have to re-balance the calculation of low-score EV to compensate (so that you don't give characters the same EV they have currently, or nearly so; PLUS some Deflection) 11:50:01 the idea being that having 0 SH is fine when it represents just shields, but that if SH also represents parries, everyone should have at least a little parrying capability 11:50:10 so that you don't feel like you CAN'T parry without a rapier or whatever 11:50:10 Eronarn: its quite hard to reference the new "Shield + Parry" mechanic without a name. What would you suppose we call it (continuing to call it "SH" is disorienting) 11:50:27 deflection, interception, blocking 11:50:54 repel 11:51:14 Also, what rules would we impose on Deflection? Are we allowing users who have a shield and a weapon to gain both blocking AND parrying? 11:51:31 it'd be like dodging plus having phase shift up 11:51:59 Eronarn: ...Phase shift is a temporary ability, parrying would not. 11:52:06 It would be a huge buff for shield/weapon users. 11:52:12 (which was the point I was getting at) 11:52:21 s/would not/would not be 11:52:24 Cryp71c: everyone could parry, even unarmed people (they just use their hands/body) 11:52:38 thus, you'd actually want to nerf starting EV, and shift some of that to parrying 11:52:53 the net goal would be about the same defenses overall, but some of what had been dodging now in parrying 11:53:35 there's something called the KISS principle, and this idea thoroughly tramples upon it 11:53:47 well, i shouldn't say overall - dodgy characters will be somewhat worse because SH falls off but EV doesn't; AC ones somewhat better because before they had essentially no EV 11:54:04 there should be less redundant weapon effects, not more 11:54:26 kilobyte: this is in the context of a large weapon effect revamp, it's not something that should go in on its own 11:54:29 _three_ defense stats are already one too much 11:54:48 three defensive stats is fine if they actually feel different in how they're used 11:54:59 well... I've read that page, and I'd go the exactly opposite way 11:55:22 Eronarn: I was thinking of parrying being variant based on the weapon you were using, if everyone can parry equally well regardless of whether they're actually unarmed or whatnot, it seems like a poor addition to be made. 11:55:28 EV: a chance to completely deflect an attack. SH: a chance to completely deflect an attack. 11:56:01 Cryp71c: different values is possible, but also keep in mind that there are parry-related weapon effects 11:56:22 Is this on the wiki? I feel like I'm missing some reading material. 11:56:26 yes 11:56:41 gimme a sec to finish my current edit 11:57:12 right... that page includes one quite sick proposal that, among others, includes nearly doubling the amount of weapon types 11:57:25 IMO, a dodge is always a full dodge, but a block should be either partial or entire, instead of always being a full-block 11:57:37 ie, AC 11:58:44 kilobyte: yeah, you could squeeze the 3 into 2, but you wouldn't gain anything (and arguably, some mechanics would be lost entirely) 11:58:55 Cryp71c: https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:item:weapon_reform#weapon_effects_in_9 is mine 11:59:52 kilobyte: there is nothing wrong with increasing the number of weapon types if they end up feeling differentiated afterwards - the problem right now isn't too many weapon types, but instead too many crap and/or nearly-identical weapon types 12:00:10 Cryp71c: not really, we already earmark specific points of EV and EV penalty: you get told if you avoided an attack due to Phase Shift or RMsl, and like that, get told when you wouldn't have missed if not for armour 12:00:31 we already have too many types compared to what we can differentiate 12:01:07 like, what's the point in demon blades vs katanas vs double swords? 12:01:41 kilobyte: perhaps removing some same-type (but different attack speed) weapons in combination with one of these weapon perk implementations. 12:01:47 (demon blades are far worse than the other two) 12:02:01 kilobyte: well, demon blades are 1H vs. 1.5H, so that's a major difference 12:02:05 no it isn't 12:02:07 Right now there is a perfect stepping stone with each weapon type of "this is what you start with" into "this is what you'll use next" etc. etc. etc. 12:02:13 1.5 hand penalty is tiny 12:02:16 1H vs 1.5H is nearly irrelevant currently most of the game 12:02:18 (comparatively speaking) 12:02:44 elliptic: matters a bunch for small races though 12:03:03 Eronarn: that's because 1.5 is treated like a 2h weapon. 12:03:11 in general I agree with kilobyte that a lot of the weapon type proposals just seem way too complicated to be any good 12:04:11 Back (briefly) on parrying: If there's support for parrying, it should go hand-in-hand with the dual-wielding implementation and ONLY be given to characters who dual-wield. 12:04:36 disagree; i don't think dual wielding should go in except as maybe a racial ability 12:05:25 Eronarn: why would it be racial specific? Put minimum limits on dex and strength required to dual wield a particular set of weapons and anyone could dual wield (high str / dex halflings could dual-wield short swords) 12:05:40 it's pretty hard to balance dual wielding 12:05:45 Cryp71c: racial as in a race with 4 arms 12:05:47 Yeah, I could see balance being an issue. 12:05:58 dual wielding works really poorly in both ADOM and nethack 12:06:09 Eronarn: heh, I see where this is going :p 12:06:33 lol, dual wielding to the octo-people is a poor gimic to get people to play them :P 12:06:41 kilobyte: no, not for octopodes - i absolutely don't want them to be multiwielders 12:06:48 two-headed ogres? :P 12:06:55 NEW RACE!Q 12:06:56 however, i've considered a four-armed divine race 12:07:06 -!- Twinge_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:07:16 ettins of Kali? :p 12:07:17 -!- Twinge has joined ##crawl-dev 12:07:37 elliptic: kilobyte: I can't speak for the entries on this wiki page, there's a ton of reading to be done, but I can say that right now the differences are terrible. 12:07:47 yes, kali style :) 12:07:54 You might as well have categories of "weapons that you can butcher with" and "weapons that you cannot butcher with" and be done with weapon types. 12:08:14 -!- Twinge has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:08:22 -!- Twinge has joined ##crawl-dev 12:08:27 + hydra heads ;) 12:08:28 (A bit cynical, sure..but when you consider most weapon types, the only difference they have are different combinations of base damage and attack speed [plus the racial limitations for size]) 12:08:43 away for a couple minutes and ##crawl-dev explodes 12:08:58 dpeg: Parrying, Dual-wielding, and weapon effects do that to a group of nerds. 12:09:03 Removing weapons is good. I offer the katana. 12:09:23 3 weapons per type seems to me like more than enough. 12:09:33 axes are okay with five 12:09:43 all types are noticeably different 12:09:48 ??axes 12:09:48 axes[1/2]: Once, the most popular weapon class. Hand axes are decent at start, but upgrade to a war axe when you can. And then switch to a broad axe or battleaxe when you find one. Executioner axes are the best two-hander in the game that can be wielded by normal-size races. Cross-trains with Maces & Flails and Polearms. 12:10:06 we could definitely cut weapons if we weren't going to do weapon effects 12:10:09 dpeg: yeah, axes are a weapon type that _is_ good currently 12:10:19 Eronarn: even with 12:10:25 Eronarn: we can cut weapons regardless of whether we do weapon effects or not 12:10:32 Cutting weapons should be aside from effects. 12:10:36 the way I see it, the effects should be tied to types rather than individual weapons 12:10:38 maces and long blades are full of bloat 12:10:55 kilobyte: +1 for the removal of knifes as well. 12:11:08 katana have the stupid trope going against them too 12:11:18 They're cool, sure. And we'd have to do something with the spriggan's knife, but that's no reason to keep a bad weapon base. 12:11:24 dpeg: tied to weapon categories like axes or long blades, you mean, right? I think people have been using "weapon type" to mean two different things in this conversation 12:11:27 Cryp71c / dpeg: i disagree: weapon effects should differentiate one skill of weapon from another, but also have some room for differentiation of e.g. flails from whips from maces 12:11:47 Eronarn: M&F are the exception, not the rule. 12:11:57 elliptic: yes, exactly. I am fine if some effects use categories like "two-handed" but apart from that, skill seems easiest to me. 12:11:58 The fact that whips, flails and maces are grouped together is out of convenience, not similarity. 12:12:06 dpeg: yes 12:12:12 Cryp71c: um, have you looked at polearms? compare a spear to a bardiche 12:12:18 There is no problem removing whips. 12:12:40 they have pretty much nothing in common other than that they have a pole 12:12:54 Eronarn: bardiche is the exception to polearms, everything else is a stabbing-type weapon. 12:13:11 Cryp71c: ...no 12:13:15 ??polearms 12:13:15 polearms[1/2]: The two-handed polearms are very poor apart from the bardiche, which requires nearly maxed skill to get to min delay. So you are probably best off sticking with a trident and hoping to upgrade to a demon trident, which are awesome (and can be blessed to trishula by TSO). 12:13:16 glaive is pure chopping 12:13:17 glaive and halberd can do both 12:13:33 the common denominator is length ==> reaching 12:13:46 scythes are also slice only right now 12:13:48 dpeg: let's remove the brand and make all polearms reach 12:13:53 kilobyte: I always said that 12:14:07 where "always" = last two years or so :) 12:14:19 so in fact, out of the 7 base types, 3 are piercing, 2 chopping, 1 slicing, 1 chop/pierce 12:14:29 (not counting trishulas as a base type) 12:14:43 what is the difference between chopping and slicing 12:14:54 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 12:14:55 chopping is axe-like hacking, slicing is sword-like 12:15:10 right now i think they only differ in blood amount 12:15:14 yeah, trishulas could be done just like gloves/gauntlets 12:15:38 kilobyte: we should get rid of the blessed sword stuff imo, it's really lame :P 12:16:22 (the "blessed katana" stuff, i mean, not the eudaemonification) 12:16:40 it's flavour which is roughly neutral 12:16:47 Not lame. Heritage and flavour. 12:17:02 speaking of blessed swords, a blessed scimitar is currently superior to a eudemon blade 12:17:09 ie, a small gain at being flavourful and a small cost of complexity. Nothing world-breaking. 12:17:16 yes 12:18:08 i don't think it's particularly flavorful for TSO to like blessing katanas but not morningstars :P 12:19:32 anyways, to return to the weapon effect thing: obviously we have too many base types for the system we have right now, but it doesn't make sense to say that the effect system i'm proposing has too many base types, because the goals of mine are different 12:20:28 Eronarn: your proposal sounds great, but isn't anywhere near practical to implement without turning crawl into a new game. I would take out most of the effects, cut the weapon selections and limit the effects of any given weapon to one category of effects 12:20:42 i think there would be value in having a spear work differently than a halberd, besides just whether they can butcher/hydra, and setting aside their damage capability differences 12:20:59 (given the presumption that we are definitely giving weapon effects serious consideration for 0.9) 12:21:42 Cryp71c: i think you're overestimating how dramatic the effects would be - they wouldn't kick in all of the time 12:22:09 i don't intend to include every effect on that list, it's more gathering effects people have proposed 12:22:22 Eronarn: I'm not referring to limiting effects because of balance implications, but rather for simplicity's sake. 12:22:46 Effects should be realistic enough to be implied and simple enough to be remembered. 12:23:01 If they're not both, we're going to have numerous issues from the userbase. 12:24:32 Cryp71c: the only proposed triggers i see as being possibly too complex are the ones requiring (non-)movement. ones like 'fight lone opponent' are fine 12:24:55 'This weapon is better against crowds of enemies' is simpler than the existing 'This weapon is better for strong users' 12:27:31 eronarn: not even looking at your triggers, your system looks way too complicated to me 12:27:36 so many types 12:28:09 so many combinations of features to try to somehow make so many types different 12:29:16 what is wrong with the current system 12:29:27 casmith789: +1 12:29:38 casmith789: it could be a little more interesting... please read the first paragraph of the weapon moves page 12:30:02 some weapon types could be made more interesting, but _only_ if it won't slow down playing 12:30:14 weapon choice could play a little more role than it does now; also, it'd be nice if weapon type would have some tactical implications 12:30:19 kilobyte: yes, I agree 12:30:22 it would be nice to add very simple effects to the weapon skills we currently have 12:30:35 elliptic: your comments are very welcome :) 12:30:38 like, I am afraid of reaching... it's a pain in the butt without autofight 12:30:43 elliptic: +1 12:30:48 (actually, that wasn't a joke) 12:30:50 kilobyte: it's fine to have a weapon effect that slows down playing, if it's not mandatory, and people enjoy using it 12:31:04 kilobyte: yes, but reaching is an interesting brand, and the interface can be improved 12:31:11 Eronarn: not really 12:31:11 ideally we should do what we can to make it slow down playing to as small a degree as possible 12:31:28 if optimal use requires five keypresses per attack, players will do that (cf. old Nemelex saccing) 12:31:40 well not that often 12:31:48 dpeg: yeah... and there was an improvement recently (autofight) 12:31:50 (cf. current use of ranged combat) 12:31:56 kilobyte: yes. Cheers! :) 12:32:18 One could use the unarmed effects as a model for a (simple) weapon effects implementation. 12:32:18 To me, reaching (for all polearms) and stabbing (depends on target status, works best with quick weapons) are two "moves" already. 12:32:28 i don't think so 12:32:32 the unarmed effects were pretty bad 12:32:36 dpeg: yeah! 12:32:38 stabbing is good 12:32:45 reaching is slightly awkward to use 12:32:50 -!- bmh has joined ##crawl-dev 12:32:50 -!- bmh has quit [Changing host] 12:32:50 -!- bmh has joined ##crawl-dev 12:32:53 Eronarn: in what manner? 12:32:56 unarmed effects have generally been a failure, but possibly they would work better on actual weapons 12:33:00 v shift-direction is relatively easy to use 12:33:03 bleeding is fine 12:33:18 I'd axe bleeding, it adds nothing but spam 12:33:20 Cryp71c: you don't really get a choice as to which unarmed one you'd like to use 12:33:29 so it's just 'oh i have claws? extra damage' 12:33:37 I think part of the issue is that Crawl is too large a game for tactical effects in every combat to not get tedious 12:33:42 also the effects were way off-base 12:33:46 like ignoring AC (!??!) 12:34:09 cryp71c: basically unarmed auxes aren't a choice you make the same way you choose to use polearms or whatever 12:34:13 crossbows could ignore most of AC 12:34:16 and the effects are very insignificant 12:34:25 I suppose it might work better if different weapon types worked in notably very different ways, just in terms of damage formulas or whatever 12:34:45 my view is 1) the current system is fine 2) any choice of lots of weapons is going to make swapping weapons loads a good idea, which is boring and the reason why I don't like using ranged weapons on melee chars for the most part 12:34:48 having unarmed auxes is fine if you can choose which you end up using - e.g., in mine, STR and DEX unarmed users have different sets of unarmed auxes 12:34:56 we have way overloaded weapon types (long blades, maces, somewhat short blades) and way underdeveloped ones. Crossbows for one. 12:35:10 kilobyte: hand crossbows :| 12:35:19 IIRC, SporkHack fixed crossbows by giving them much longer range than anything else 12:35:23 crossbows and bows are decently differentiated by ammo brands, at least 12:35:24 but that apparently unbalances Crawl 12:35:36 Eronarn: they were quite bad, but I'm looking more into light/heavy ones 12:35:49 Jumping Spider Tile (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3723) by dolphin 12:35:49 Low-level vampire can transform into a bat with a cursed robe (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3722) by smock 12:35:59 short blades have daggers, sabres and quickblade which are all decent in some circumstances, short swords and knives aren't really useful 12:36:01 obviously more could be done with making ranged combat interesting, but it doesn't seem bad to me as it is 12:36:08 kilobyte: there is nothing inherently wrong with hand crossbows, even if they use darts (but they could be made to just fire bolts, too) 12:36:22 or they could fire needles 12:36:23 Eronarn: hand ballistas :p 12:36:32 lol, hand ballistas. 12:36:40 kilobyte: ballistas would be cool for ogres - fire javelins or spears 12:36:47 -!- monqy has joined ##crawl-dev 12:36:48 reform the ranged combat interface and it may be much more fun 12:37:01 Pratchett's troll[s], clockworkdemon 12:37:04 the weapons as they are seem powerful enough 12:37:06 casmith789: where have you been over the last four years? 12:37:23 playing nothing, playing nethack and playing crawl 12:37:24 casmith789: what do you currently dislike about the interface? 12:37:30 the use of ammo 12:37:46 casmith789: I don't think you contribute to the discussion. 12:37:50 lol 12:37:59 I have outlined my proposal on the ranged combat page 12:38:06 I see no need to repeat it here 12:38:07 casmith789: wrt swapping weapons: i don't think that swapping is inherently bad, only if you end up having to do it all the time; there are ways to make that less useful/desirable 12:38:44 but what I'm saying is I don't think the system as it is is unbalanced apart from the ranged combat interface 12:38:47 for example, in mine some weapons have effects that use crosstraining skills - so using their weapon effects is an actual XP investment as well, not just a swapping one 12:38:55 Another pretty simple idea: if axes have a chance to automatically attack adjacent targets, then that'd make fighting groups that much more interesting 12:39:10 There's a collection of simple ideas on some wiki page. 12:39:21 dpeg: and discourage corridor combat 12:39:39 dpeg: what about staves? They are far more in a need of a revamp. 12:39:48 dpeg: my system basically just builds on that: for example, one trigger is 'melee' (>1 adjacent enemy), and one is 'duel' (==1 adjacent enemy) 12:40:06 while axes having a chance to attack another monster adjacent sounds pretty good, it is still better to fight in corridors 12:40:07 and attacking multiple targets would be more natural for them 12:40:47 fighting 1 monster: you get 1 attack for every 1 of their attacks (assuming 10 speed); fighting 2 you get 1.x attacks for every 2 of theirs 12:41:14 casmith789: there are costs to finding a corridor, though 12:41:25 Not very significant costs though. 12:41:27 it doesn't have to make you always want to fight outside of one, it's interesting if it just alters the math 12:41:46 casmith789: sometimes you cannot choose and then the axe guy has an advantage 12:42:00 Well yes, I agree it would be an axe vs slime creature buff 12:42:29 But in the most part you can choose against any opponent that matters 12:42:33 The Broad Axe of Slime Creature Slaying? 12:42:49 (ie ones that have the ability to kill you when you reach them) 12:42:59 casmith789: keep in mind that the game isn't made just for optimal players 12:43:17 Eronarn: not sure what your point is 12:44:09 an effect doesn't have to be the optimal choice in *any* situation to be worth including 12:44:51 arguments that it won't be used in optimal play are something to take note of, but they're not the sole reason to include stuff, so they're not decisive 12:47:04 I agree that it could be a nice effect, however it doesn't seem like a reason to choose axes, and certainly not pick up two weapon classes. I take up multiple weapon classes at the moment if I find a good weapon but not for another reason, and I can't see that reason being another one. 12:47:51 casmith789: altering choice of weapon is only a part of why to include weapon effects, though - simply making weapons feel different to play, even if it doesn't affect your choice of which to use, has value 12:48:02 that is true 12:48:08 I agree 12:48:08 I don't think that encouraging people more to pick up multiple or new weapon skills is necessary at all 12:48:17 if you attack one rat and three go down, that is value in itself 12:48:32 elliptic: it is not the main motivation (for me, that is) 12:48:56 as for picking up two skills - i think it could work, and i certainly want to explore it 12:48:58 03kilobyte * rc3f5467d6e42 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/descript/ability.txt: Remove a no longer valid description of Vp bat form and cursed gear. 12:48:58 03kilobyte * rbbb2ca89955f 10/crawl-ref/source/godwrath.cc: Don't crash on old saves in Ashenzari penance. 12:49:13 it'd be good for races like mi or ke with crazy good apts 12:49:24 there'd be a way for them to express that in a new way 12:49:55 i can see how it could not work, too, but i wouldn't want to write it off without giving it a try 12:50:00 what if we made all weapon skills to cross-train with each other (current ones cross-training more)? 12:51:15 i doubt that would come up very often, the issue is more one of not having reasons to crosstrain except for if you find a really great weapon 12:52:15 well you will probably get a demon trident, demon blade, demon whip, katana or double sword in every name so may want to crosstrain from axes / another weapon skill that you don't get the weapon in 12:52:21 every game* 12:54:04 btw, i'd like it if we made crosstraining affect effective skill, so you can use it more organically 12:54:24 since now we have explicit temp skill boosts anyways 12:54:31 both tridents need a nerf... demon whips too, but completely axing them could be an option, too. 12:54:51 kilobyte: i don't think it's fruitful to try and nerf stuff with the existing weapon damage system 12:54:51 kilobyte: if whips go away, that'd take care of demon whips. 12:55:10 for katanas, the reason it hasn't been axed 23 minutes ago is to not make cherry-picking harder :p 12:55:40 so many attempts to make something better or worse have resulted in bad effects 12:55:41 no one said anything in their defense... 12:56:13 like dwhips becoming really great because someone changed whip stats and altered dwhip stats to match 12:56:40 it would be better to just leave stuff as it is until we come up with a more sane combat damage system 12:57:12 all polearms but tridents suck... but having effectively two brands (reaching) can counteract that 12:57:17 (and specifically, one that is a lot easier for people to understand without sourcediving - e.g., people not knowing that +damage doesn't get factored in the same way base damage / +slaying do) 12:58:15 kilobyte: <3 on katanas :) 12:58:41 kilobyte: disagree: reaching is going to be a marginal beneft most of the time, and the polearms just have awful stats 12:59:40 kilobyte: agree... nerf both tridents, nerf or axe demon whips, and remove katana... best 1.5-hander should be double sword IMO, and no demon weapon should be quite as good 12:59:57 1.5-hander = 1-hander or 1.5-hander 13:02:40 you could just increase skill needed for 1 handers to reduce to min delay 13:02:59 ie make dwhips 18 base delay but still reduce to 5 13:03:01 the whole min delay thing sucks as a mechanic anyways :P 13:03:10 requiring 26 skill 13:05:10 also, what about bastardizing double sword? Triple ones would make good claymores, too... 13:05:22 people love the double/triple swords 13:05:28 even if they're silly 13:05:56 it's the worst of Star Wars... 13:06:12 (and that breaks the 300 years rule! :p) 13:06:32 kilobyte: no... don't think of them like that. like a safety razor, multiple blades stacked on top of each other! 13:06:55 they're two blades coming out of one hilt in the same direction - that's why they're 1.5 handed, not double-handed 13:08:57 kilobyte: I think double/triple swords are just a joke, not a star wars reference. If you want, I can ask Linley. 13:10:20 dpeg: they way predate star wars 13:10:22 03kilobyte * r01f29a754433 10/crawl-ref/source/ (7 files in 4 dirs): Generate no katanas. 13:10:27 i mean, the star wars thing kilo is referencing 13:11:51 kilobyte: any outcry in ##crawl yet? :) 13:11:57 the outrage on ##crawl is... impressive 13:12:13 elliptic: Seriously? Gotta love it. 13:12:37 lol that's awesome 13:12:55 kilobyte: should I remove all instances of katanas from des files? 13:13:03 already one 13:13:06 ah, you've done that, cool 13:13:07 done 13:13:16 :( swamp dragon armor is heavy armor. 13:13:43 light/heavy armor doesn't really exist as a division now, does it? 13:13:56 only for ozo's armour I think 13:14:02 oh, yeah 13:14:10 What determines casting penalty then, ev penalty? 13:14:11 I wonder if we should bump the save major... in fact, with a small 0.9, we could have 0.8 and 0.9 save-compatible if nothing pops up 13:14:15 yes, Cryp71c 13:14:20 and your armour skill, and strength vs. armour min str 13:14:43 hrm, maybe casting in swamp dragon armour wouldn't be too bad. 13:14:51 not any worse than any other armour with that EV penalty 13:14:53 guess by the time I can afford it, kind of worthless. 13:14:57 which is... -2 or -3, isn't it 13:15:02 -2 13:15:15 yeah, that's the same as in ring mail 13:15:18 kilobyte: sounds good, your choice. Perhaps best to wait until one of Chris or Raphael is around. 13:16:27 can we wait on any further changes to weapons though? because that's really pretty dramatic action to take already 13:16:33 geez... how to kill Mennas?! :-O 13:16:47 and a lot of why certain weapons are good is just an artifact of the way the weapon system works 13:16:48 hiya 13:17:00 give mennas a 2hander and he'll drop his shield and become less ridiculous. this is relevant to development because imo it is problematic 13:17:25 monqy: someone on the SA forums noted that he was able to kill asmo because he picked up a rod with summon swarm and spammed that instead of casting 13:17:34 after exhausting entirely too much effort on this task, I think I've found a suit RNG. On my computer it's about 15% slower than our insecure generator and should be cryptographically secure 13:17:38 Eronarn: nice 13:17:43 Eronarn: yeah... mostly, about whether their delay is 12-13 or 10-11 13:17:52 Napkin: XL 20 Kobold, I watched you :) 13:18:04 bmh: <3 13:18:27 bmh: would you propose it on c-r-d or a wiki page? 13:18:40 kilobyte: i think it'd be good to try and come up with some range of skills/damages that we want weapons to be placed at 13:18:43 dpeg: I'll propose it in the morning/tomorrow afternoon once the statistical torture test is finished 13:18:44 and fit the formulas to that 13:19:03 like, if we want double swords to be 10% better than longswords, or whatever 13:19:03 or just toss it our way, so we can add it when the bugfixing flurry goes away 13:19:29 so far it's passed TestU01's SmallCrush and CrushTests. It's been running BigCrush for the last few hours. It passed everything in the Crush suite, while Mersenne Twister fails two tests (linear complexity) 13:20:01 Mennas saluted me, dpeg \o/ 13:20:08 BTW, how often is CAO trunk updated? 13:20:23 3 times a week 13:20:39 bmh: a 13:20:41 yay 13:20:42 How frequent is CDO updated, by comparison? 13:21:15 Napkin: now you're best buddies? 13:21:33 Napkin: ah, Ko of Ely, I recall 13:21:48 :) 13:22:12 2 times a week, Cryp71c 13:22:30 at least that's the default 13:23:01 30 mar, 1 apr, 2 apr, 2 apr, 2 apr, 4 apr was last week 13:25:46 Napkin: really? I thought CDO was updated more frequently than that. 13:26:06 > crontab -l 13:26:07 # m h dom mon dow command 13:26:07 20 6 * * 1,4,6 /home/services/crawl/bin/update-mingw-all-trunk.sh quiet 13:26:07 50 6 * * 1,6 /home/services/crawl/bin/update-cdo-trunk.sh quiet 13:26:11 --- 13:26:21 and additionally on demand 13:32:38 if people would transfer their games to the higher version more often.. we could install more updates 13:36:06 ASSERT(empty()) in 'store.cc' at line 1316 failed when loading saved game after game over. (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3724) by Gigalith 13:38:45 kilobyte: I believe that the message area also suffers from shortage of columns. 13:45:59 is the innate reaching of polearms something for 0.8? 13:57:38 no 13:57:41 feature freeze 14:17:27 -!- bmh has quit [Quit: bmh] 14:20:17 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:32:54 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 14:39:44 -!- Jordan7hm has joined ##crawl-dev 14:43:05 Sorry, back. Network died from the storm. 14:54:11 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 14:58:34 -!- syllogism has quit [] 15:00:12 Gotta love the "I didn't play 0.8 but it sure sucks" tavern post. 15:03:00 dpeg: it's more a "I hate the devs for nerfing fire elementalists" post, which I don't have that much sympathy with 15:05:31 ais523: sure, but it's a pretty long comment for that one complaint :) 15:05:55 Every change we make will affect some player's most dear feature. 15:07:46 -!- Jordan7hm has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:18:27 -!- Pseudonut has joined ##crawl-dev 15:25:30 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:30:44 reavers :( 15:31:56 anyway, some players say that the FE change was a buff 15:34:27 there's a lot of talk about fixing Re, IIRC 15:34:46 03j-p-e-g * rfed893d2417a 10/crawl-ref/source/ (abl-show.cc player-act.cc player.h transform.cc transform.h): Fix #2395: Disallow ending forms/levitation if it would cause drowning. 15:34:48 eronarn-reavers are interesting 15:34:54 or at least sound interesting 15:35:06 the conj/hex sort 15:39:41 monqy: i think they have promise; the hex part seems pretty easy to manage, there's some good ideas for that - the question is how well conj can be made to work with that 15:40:40 though i disagree with naming them witches :P 15:45:20 -!- jpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 15:46:06 jpeg: I was coding exactly the same thing as your latest commit :/ 15:47:54 galehar: sorry :( 15:48:05 galehar: I should have made a note this morning when I started on it 15:48:06 it's ok :) 15:48:17 03galehar * rd32d060a2bc7 10/crawl-ref/source/ (actor.cc actor.h terrain.cc): Allow spider form to scramble out of deep water by clinging to a wall. 15:48:17 also I'm afraid you'll have to find a new release manager 15:48:20 I could have done the same thing 15:48:27 why? 15:48:27 03galehar * ra0e2f53f9556 10/crawl-ref/source/transform.cc: Fix clinging status not updated properly when switching out of spider form. 15:48:28 03galehar * rc5540ef31c00 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/portals/trove.des: Fix a typo. 15:48:47 I'll start a new job on April 18, meaning I won't have the time 15:49:03 plus I'll be legally obliged to quit working in other game development areas 15:49:50 professional game developer? 15:49:56 yeah :D 15:50:00 awesome! 15:50:02 congrats 15:50:13 but too bad for us... 15:50:24 got the news today, will send the signed contract off tomorrow 15:50:39 what company? 15:50:50 yeah, quitting crawl is the proverbial fly in the proverbial stonesoup :P 15:51:10 smallish German company, Noumena Studios 15:51:26 I haven't told dpeg yet... 15:51:45 crash on start (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3725) by Saegor 15:52:07 he was there less than an hour ago 15:52:34 I'll send him an email, he'll be happy for me, but sad about Gozag 15:53:17 jpeg: congratulations! 15:53:32 thanks! :D 15:53:49 jpeg: Hi 15:54:05 jpeg: Are you sure they can deny you to code in your spare time? 15:54:20 That's like forbidding to marry or go to a pub :O 15:54:51 the contract forbids working for the competition :P 15:54:52 Also congratulations :) 15:55:10 you'll have to find someone else to code Gozag, I'm afraid 15:55:18 jpeg: yes, but DCSS is freeware, there is no money involved. I don't think it counts as competition or Nebentätigkeit. 15:55:24 -!- dpeg is now known as sadpeg 15:55:30 jpeg: you can't get paid by the competition, but working freely for an open source software is different. I doubt they can forbid it. 15:56:43 well, I'm not going to risk during the probation period 15:56:49 sure 15:56:51 googling my activities would be easy 15:57:00 need a new nick 15:57:08 yeah ;) 15:57:21 code Gozag undercover :) 15:57:24 new email, new name, new nick 15:57:29 New feature: super secret gold god 15:57:58 jpeg: do you know what kind of game you'll be working on? And what kind of work you'll be doing? 15:58:32 actually, they do explicitly forbid working in "the area of the company", whether paid or for free 15:59:12 galehar: a German adventure RPG for PC and XBox 15:59:26 -!- edlothiol has quit [*.net *.split] 15:59:33 -!- jld has quit [*.net *.split] 15:59:49 -!- Mu_ has quit [*.net *.split] 15:59:55 -!- Napkin has quit [*.net *.split] 15:59:57 -!- due has quit [*.net *.split] 15:59:59 -!- dazzle_ has quit [*.net *.split] 15:59:59 -!- lorimer has quit [*.net *.split] 15:59:59 -!- Gretell has quit [*.net *.split] 16:00:00 -!- Eifeltrampel has quit [*.net *.split] 16:00:01 galehar: and it'll be C++ and Lua, which was why I fairly confident I'd get the job - lots of experience :D 16:00:01 interesting... Helga said that the contract looks as if they made a bunch of bitter experiences... still, it reeks a little of sittenwidrig, but we'll see :) 16:00:11 galehar: i don't know how it works in germany, but in the US, you absolutely can be barred from doing open source stuff 16:00:47 some of the clauses may as well say 'any coding you do while working for us belongs to us even if you do it on your own time' 16:01:16 Eronarn: I'm not surprised. Work law in the US are not very nice for employees. 16:01:18 sadpeg: the company did result from another one going bankrupt, so I'd rather prefer them to be careful than for the company to crash while I'm working there 16:01:20 -!- dazzle has joined ##crawl-dev 16:01:21 jpeg: I guess the chances of Gozag go up, assuming that work won't kill all desire to code at home. Easier to code a single, big feature in stealth mode than to fix bugs etc. :) 16:01:24 -!- Pseudonut has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:02:02 jpeg: and have you ever worked in game development or is it gonna be a first? 16:02:27 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 16:02:27 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 16:02:27 -!- jld has joined ##crawl-dev 16:02:27 -!- Napkin has joined ##crawl-dev 16:02:27 -!- due has joined ##crawl-dev 16:02:27 -!- lorimer has joined ##crawl-dev 16:02:27 -!- Gretell has joined ##crawl-dev 16:02:27 -!- Eifeltrampel has joined ##crawl-dev 16:02:45 Eronarn: well, they don't go that far 16:03:01 galehar: it's a first, and my first real job too 16:03:19 galehar: but 3 years of OS game development experience counted for a lot 16:05:32 -!- edlothiol has quit [Quit: edlothiol] 16:05:43 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 16:06:05 hmm... why did katanas get removed? 16:06:16 and should that go into 0.8 or not? 16:06:26 not necessarily, I think 16:06:37 jpeg: silly trope plus overabundance of swords 16:06:43 a feature change rather than a bugfix -> no 16:07:18 kilobyte: that's what I thought, though I guess it might have been some sort of urgent balance fix 16:07:28 no, not at all 16:09:26 I have another question, though: will we bump the save version? Con: no real reason to break saves, pro: lots of #ifdefed code that can be cleaned up. 16:10:05 can we get rid of the entry vault that has psyche and ijyb behind glass? It'd be the same thing with orcs or whatever and it wouldn't be blocking uniques from actually showing up in the game 16:10:16 not sure about ijyb 16:10:38 kilobyte: I'm wondering about that, too 16:11:15 I guess if we break saves it should happen either just in master, or in both master and 0.8 branch 16:11:33 otherwise, things will get confusing if we have two major versions 33 that don't match up 16:12:05 OG17: can you make a patch? 16:12:06 I think we should do it 16:12:07 no point for master if we don't touch 0.8 16:12:07 OG17: sounds good to me 16:12:27 I don't really know how to set up patches 16:12:32 well, we could skip 33 in master, later on 16:12:53 or do it in both branches 16:13:01 another thing: since we end up bumping majors very rarely these days, it's possible we can have 0.8 and 0.9 save compatible 16:13:02 OG17: just file it for now at least 16:13:12 yeah okay 16:31:56 lordsloth_entry_two_stooges entry seals off uniques (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3726) by OG17 16:32:02 totally a bug 16:40:23 03kilobyte * r62f6b7a78613 10/crawl-ref/source/rltiles/dc-mon/animals/jumping_spider.png: dolphin's tile for jumping spiders. 16:45:46 galehar: Polystyrus' crash (not reported as a bug) was in get_monster_equipment_desc() -- mi.props.exists("wand_known") was set but mi.inv[MSLOT_WAND].get() was null 16:45:48 is keeping save compatibility between 0.8 and 0.9 an argument for or against upping the major version? 16:46:30 against having it different for master and 0.8, very slightly for upping it in both 16:47:01 Autoexclusions don't extend across gates (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3727) by OG17 16:47:01 kilboyte: ok, I'll have a look. 16:47:38 if we do increase (and I tend to think we should), we should probably do it early, so we catch any bugs inadvertently introduced in the process 16:48:14 galehar: should I report it, with the backtrace? 16:50:54 -!- edlothiol has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:51:00 kilobyte: no, I can fix it, it's simple. 16:51:27 !lm * type=crash -log 16:51:28 776. polystyrus, XL9 TrBe, T:5603 (milestone): http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/polystyrus/crash-polystyrus-20110404-151549.txt 16:51:31 !lm * type=crash -log -2 16:51:31 775. BlankDiploma, XL16 NaFE, T:48061 (milestone): http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/BlankDiploma/crash-BlankDiploma-20110404-092330.txt 16:52:16 hum... 404 :( 16:54:03 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 16:54:19 ah, CAO 16:54:25 !lm * type=crash -log -2 src=cdo 16:54:26 706. chukamok, XL14 DSWz, T:26445 (milestone): http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/chukamok/crash-chukamok-20110403-000027.txt 16:55:40 I get "404 not found" for all of these 16:57:12 it's actually http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/chukamok/crash-chukamok-20110403-000026.txt 16:57:35 [22:57] the game won't even start with the "remove katanas" patch 16:58:16 03galehar * rab21c8f9131b 10/crawl-ref/source/directn.cc: Fix a crash when the player thinks the monster has a wand but it doesn't. 16:58:16 yeah there's a syntax error in a des file now 17:01:58 no core dump for this one :( And it's a crash during a cleanup after closing the game. 17:02:05 Graphical glitches with new characters (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3728) by Kokor Hekkus 17:03:44 LuckyNed the Bludgeoner (L14 OgBe) (Lair:3) 17:18:48 kilobyte: how does the chardump deal with the unicode changes? the map print, I mean 17:25:28 elliptic: what des file? 17:26:37 sadpeg: this bug (typo) has been fixed already. It was in troves.des 17:27:13 Bows ask you whether you want to attack despite repeatedly answering yes (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3729) by casmith789 17:27:33 yeah, trove.des 17:27:35 galehar: ah, thanks 17:27:44 -!- sadpeg is now known as dpeg 17:32:41 -!- eith has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:38:36 if we're removing base weapon types, can we get rid of some of the maces/flails too? 17:39:04 hi 17:39:07 there's something like 15 different base types at the moment with pretty bad differentiation 17:39:20 due: hi :) 17:40:23 just one of mace/flail/ankus/morningstar existing would be a nice start 17:42:09 late here, I'll cherry-pick the recent changes tomorrow 17:42:18 i'd also get rid of long swords on top of katanas personally, then long blades would be a pretty good class (falchion -> scimitar -> demon blade/double sword, great sword/triple sword) 17:42:18 03kilobyte 07stone_soup-0.8 * rd643b10d97e3 10/crawl-ref/INSTALL.txt: Update installation instructions. 17:42:25 03galehar 07stone_soup-0.8 * r44cd69a9241a 10/crawl-ref/source/transform.cc: Fix transform from wall clinging spider to a flying form. 17:42:25 03MarvinPA 07stone_soup-0.8 * r4be4a9a1994a 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/descript/ability.txt: Shorten Recite description, remove references to currently unimplemented features 17:42:32 jpeg: printing the map tries to stuff everything into the system locale, showing replacement characters if not possible. This can happen mostly just on Windows nowadays. In the case of Windows, it it proved to be a problem, we can use a "BOM" instead, most popular viewers support it. 17:43:32 okay 17:43:51 Windows usually means Tiles, whose players don't understand the glyph map anyway :) 17:44:16 MarvinPA: a good idea, and I'm all for it... however, it goes against Eronarn's big proposal -- which, while I personally hate it, might survive 17:44:40 I'll wait with picking the unicode commits until the bug reports have died down... 17:44:41 does anyone like eronarn's big proposal other than eronarn? 17:44:56 heh 17:44:59 what is eronarn's big proposal? the fight one? 17:45:01 I believe in many small steps rather than one fell swoop. 17:45:14 * jpeg yawns widely 17:45:15 i think it'd be reasonable to cut back on weapon types anyway 17:45:17 night, guys 17:45:21 Nacht! 17:45:22 casmith789: the one with dozens of new weapons and complicated flowcharts 17:45:22 jpeg: bye! 17:45:28 -!- jpeg has quit [] 17:45:31 and then start adding weapon effects bit-by-bit when there are decent proposals, yeah 17:45:41 MarvinPA: yes, that's what I support. 17:45:45 may as well cut down on the base types, they can be added back in if needed 17:45:49 right now there's no point to them 17:46:11 Cutting back weapon types and adding weapon moves one by one should make for good testing. 17:46:34 If we get implicit butchering for 0.9 we can also dispense with knives. 17:46:45 i'm not super committed to trying to do what's there in .9 anyways; i'm a lot more interested in new reavers, lava orcs, octopodes, and maybe new stalkers 17:46:46 that'd be nice, yeah 17:47:00 also swarms; and trample since it doesn't seem likely to get into .8 17:47:44 and those forest wurms of yours, which might be what I need for Forest 17:48:36 i might be up for doing tree monsters, too - i've wanted them as a rare spawn in swamp for ages, anyhow 17:49:02 tree mimics 17:49:23 wtf.. bow as main melee weapon, casmith789? :-O 17:49:28 elliptic: exactly what i said last time someone mentioned treefolk :P 17:49:34 I was all happy with my design, planning adding just assassins and map generators (including mutable levels). But fortunately we know that's no good. 17:49:48 Napkin: it works really nicely with cehu 17:49:58 kilobyte: what's not good? 17:50:02 does that train any skill? 17:50:20 fighting. also UC aux because I'm a centaur 17:50:44 hmm.. ok :D 17:50:48 g'night o/ 17:50:51 dpeg: we had a vault "forest_0.8" with WEIGHT:999999 in trunk for a while, it showed some problems with the design 17:51:20 btw, level design was awesome in d26 and d27 17:51:29 kilobyte: ah, okay. I wondered whether you meant "assassins" or "mutable levels" :) 17:51:45 and d25 was beautiful 17:51:47 good job! 17:51:58 o/ 17:52:27 all monsters have insane EV and about no HP. This means, spells that ignore EV make them trivial, anything else is extremely ineffective. 17:52:33 d25? 17:52:35 kilobyte: crawl needs more beefy monsters imo. a lot of the later threats are threatening primarily because of stuff like shadow creatures, torment, summon 1s 17:53:52 dpeg: mutable levels can be fun, they're not an issue. Assassins might be fun too, save for being a yet another frail untouchable monster, which we don't need any more of. 17:54:47 kilobyte: do spriggan assassins have the gimmick of waiting to attack you, or did that get tossed 17:54:48 Eronarn: it's very hard to have beefy threats that can't one-shot some builds, and that is no fun. 17:55:53 the latest plan I had reverted to the original concept -- walking in straight stealthily and stabbing you as soon as possible 17:57:24 kilobyte: if the players knows what to expect, that's absolutely okay 17:57:29 waiting would lead to ridiculous play like hitting yourself in a safe place 17:57:29 ah 17:57:55 i have been thinking a stealth gimmick might be cute on an insect - assassin bug 17:58:12 there's also chameleons, for lair 17:59:02 dpeg: I'm not ruling out assassins -- it's an interesting concept. It's just the problem with the monster set. 17:59:33 Eronarn: how would chameleons work? 17:59:43 there was a long discussion about it in here (like, two hours) 17:59:45 Nethack has them, I think. 18:00:18 some proposals were: sky beast invis, permainvis, invis until they get within a certain range, cast invis as a spell, reaching tongue attack, stalk you and only attack when other stuff is also attacking 18:01:42 dpeg: they work like shifters in Crawl, except that they're indistinguishable from normal monsters unless you notice they're out of place or you see them change 18:01:53 and they select from all monsters in the game 18:01:57 so they can be really dangerous early 18:02:03 typical tactic's to run until they change into something harmless 18:03:47 ok, so lemme describe assassins then. They have a position but are not actually placed on the map. Other monsters (especially your summons) may walk into their position, etc. Their behaviour is: when there's a monster (friendly or hostile) or a nasty cloud in their space, they do nothing. Otherwise, they act normally. Any turn when they move you get an awareness roll. 18:04:44 the moment you succeed on any awareness roll, the assassin turns into a regular monster, re-hiding only out of view 18:05:15 this is a beefed up version of monsters who can turn themselves invisible 18:05:17 what is awareness based on? T&D skill? 18:06:08 mostly your race, although T&D plays some effect too 18:06:20 if you never see them, do they never do anything at all? 18:06:27 ah no, they attack, just from off the map 18:06:51 they reveal themselves to attack 18:07:25 kilobyte: the new unicode glyphs are very impressive, btw. Clouds etc. 18:07:57 we can have nicer clouds, but too bad I had to pick something available on all platforms by default 18:09:17 in fact on Windows we can actually install a font (or use one embedded in the executable), and that's the platform with worst built-in support 18:10:06 ais523: of course, the stealth attack is a stab 18:14:24 -!- keithburgun has joined ##crawl-dev 18:21:24 kilobyte: what're you using for the not-placed-on-map stuff? i'd implemented something to hold limbo monsters for swarms 18:21:43 it'd be good not to have two separate approaches to it 18:27:28 -!- galehar has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:43:01 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 19:01:46 -!- minced has joined ##crawl-dev 19:11:09 -!- minced has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:14:14 -!- Mu_ has quit [Quit: Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place.] 19:22:24 -!- keithburgun has quit [] 19:26:25 03kilobyte * r14d3a05d939f 10/crawl-ref/source/fight.cc: Fix missing checks for players bashing with bows, monsters with rods. 19:27:37 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:29:14 kilobyte: If you get gruesome working with dgl, I'd like to put it on CAO as well 19:29:24 Also: you're up late as usual :P 19:33:14 it is normal for computer nerds to be up late 19:33:25 gruesome? 19:34:05 a roguelike you can ascend in 15 minutes 19:34:11 simple but fun 19:34:31 http://roguebasin.roguelikedevelopment.org/index.php?title=Gruesome 19:34:34 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:34:49 due: I'm pretty sure you know its author from ##c-o :P 19:34:57 oh 19:35:06 I didn't realise it had a name :) 19:35:59 greensnark: hi 19:36:14 Lobsterman! 19:36:14 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 19:36:24 And the billygoatman too 19:36:34 greensnark: or... not :o 19:36:52 nights tho 19:37:11 due: I thought dgrey hung out on ##c-o a bit 19:37:17 At least back when I still visited 19:37:29 dpeg: Bed already? :P 19:37:36 The confusing thing is that Eronarn was working on a 7DRL. 19:38:07 mine's not dgl-able :P 19:38:16 LuckyNed the Shatterer (L21 OgBe) (Snake:1) 19:39:51 Eronarn: that's what I thought 19:40:09 Eronarn: due to using that silly library that draws text graphically without support for real consoles? 19:40:33 anything else can be bashed into compliance 19:40:49 (assuming there is source, so no Adom or DoomRL) 19:44:07 kilobyte: it's a GUI program in java, not just fake-console... has layered graphics, inventory tree, etc. 19:44:24 it wouldn't be too bad to do a console version, but it'd actually be functionally different, not just appearance-wise 19:44:31 !messages 19:44:31 (1/2) MarvinPA said (2h 20m 5s ago): i deliberately unbound R, T and ` since i don't use them, yeah 19:44:37 !messages 19:45:06 https://github.com/Eronarn/Glyph/blob/master/README informative 19:45:06 (1/1) MarvinPA said (2h 19m 43s ago): if you go to the macros section you can remove that bit and have them work again, i use equip_unequip = true instead of R and T though 19:45:11 (we should remove R and T and make equip_unequip the default) 19:45:30 it's so much nicer :( 19:45:44 MarvinPA, you just equip it again and it automatically unequips? 19:46:11 i think i need to use that 19:46:16 yeah, it displays your worn armour/jewellery as well as unequipped stuff 19:47:27 upsy: i'll do a real readme once the game has more content than 'you can move around and pick up stuff' :P 19:48:05 MarvinPA: hey, it'd free up more keys! :D 19:48:23 i'm not sure what more keys would be needed for but yes :P 19:48:30 oh oops, didn't notice that you didn't finish it 19:49:39 MarvinPA: i'd like to expand the menu that's on ctrl-t right now 19:49:56 it'd be cool to get an overview of allies you know about on the level / when you last saw them / what they were equipped with 19:50:13 -!- evilmike has joined ##crawl-dev 19:54:02 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 19:54:21 MarvinPA: no R and T would be an endless source of errors 19:54:54 why? 19:55:28 I find myself being confused about whether a shield or cloak is worn after an interrupted swap pretty damn often 19:55:35 -!- monqy has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:55:56 so let's keep core commands like this idempotent 19:56:05 if it has (worn) next to it, then it's worn :P 19:56:30 but you have to check that every time 19:56:52 i don't see how R and T help with that 19:57:45 you wanted to make W remove an already worn thing, right? 19:58:19 yes, the same way equip_unequip works 20:00:02 ugh, that's an unmaintained and obscure thing... let's not inflict it on people who don't specifically want that 20:00:43 seems like a sensible option that improves equipment interface to me but fair enough 20:00:51 Let's burn people who use W to unwear stuff at the stake! 20:00:56 * greensnark ties MarvinPA to stake. 20:01:03 I hate the W to unwear thing :P 20:01:16 For a while it was the default and I'd keep running around with no armour 20:01:36 amen! 20:01:52 i don't know how you manage that when worn items are lit up in green and have (worn) next to them, but okay :P 20:02:14 it's enough to play fast 20:02:39 "why inflict it on people who don't specifically want that" is exactly how easy_exit_menu seems to me 20:02:41 it's actually a bit harder to tell when you are wearing a lot of randarts (they still have (worn) next to them but they are always white, whether worn or unworn) 20:03:30 easy_exit_menu is an option, so you can change it 20:03:55 Removing R & T would be rather more painful than an option you can change 20:04:17 that's true. still don't like that default though 20:05:46 I think the problem is that easy_exit_menu just doesn't do the right thing 20:05:50 toggle commands might be acceptable for tiles if you play with a mouse, but with a keyboard, not really 20:06:06 It's supposed to exit when you're paging through the menu, not when you're using single-item scrolling 20:06:46 it also isn't an option in some menus, such as the identifying one. or at least it wasn't last time i checked 20:06:58 problems with easy_exit_menu: 1. it often exits the menu by surprise, 2. it makes the same action have different results 20:06:59 Well, then that'd be a bug 20:07:32 kilobyte: Exactly, it's supposed to easy exit only on paging actions with space/pgdn, not for things that turn out to be interpreted as game command like up/down 20:07:41 crawl is pretty bad in terms of the same options having different results 20:08:00 pickup_mode = multi is a huge improvement, for me at least 20:08:12 er same actions having different results* 20:08:22 what does that do? 20:08:40 oh actually maybe the default for that isn't what i think it is 20:09:09 i assumed it brought up the multi pickup menu on one press of , and not two 20:09:15 but it always brings up the menu to pick up items if there's more than one on a square, yeah 20:09:29 yeah nevermind, single is default 20:09:50 i thought it was auto which i used for a while and then got fed up of :P 20:11:32 yeah i saw auto:5 but didn't know what it was 20:11:42 think i'll have it on multi now 20:13:27 actually, the identification menu is weirder than i remembered 20:13:55 if you scroll down you get thrown out of it and get "Use on which item? (\ to view known items) (? for menu, Esc to quit)" 20:14:02 but esc just quits the whole thing 20:14:55 but at least in that case you can't start running downward or whatever 20:23:31 -!- Sequell has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:25:34 -!- Sequell has joined ##crawl-dev 20:33:41 Napkin: I have been running cashybrid over the last hour. Was the load acceptable? I think autorobin was running for a part of it too. Both have the delay added. 20:34:49 casmith789: you set a new world record even with the delay? 20:35:01 yes. delay was barely noticeable 20:36:42 -!- Pseudonut has joined ##crawl-dev 20:41:47 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:04:50 someone should double-check 3711, stone seems to explode into glass on cdo 21:06:20 this was in lair, if ruined stuff would change anything 21:21:38 -!- edlothiol has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:40:09 -!- Pseudonut has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:55:32 -!- elliptic has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:02:03 -!- upsy has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:06:27 -!- monqy has joined ##crawl-dev 22:17:56 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 22:18:37 Game crashes when opening inventory while overloaded (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3730) by crackrat 22:25:49 -!- Jordan7hm has joined ##crawl-dev 22:52:33 -!- ThVortex has joined ##crawl-dev 22:54:52 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:58:58 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 23:03:50 Allow ogres and trolls to use large 2 handed weapons as 1.5 handers (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3731) by RangerC 23:16:26 -!- OG17 has quit [] 23:17:43 -!- ThVortex has left ##crawl-dev 23:18:55 -!- OG17 has joined ##crawl-dev 23:40:39 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection]