00:08:39 -!- ZChris13 has joined ##crawl-dev 00:24:30 -!- XB7 has left ##crawl-dev 00:38:04 Windows development builds on CDO updated to: 0.8.0-a0-5851-gcdf0e57 00:54:31 Unstable branch on CDO updated to: 0.8.0-a0-5851-gcdf0e57 (32) 01:22:20 -!- XB7 has joined ##crawl-dev 01:23:13 -!- XB7 has left ##crawl-dev 01:24:46 -!- Clatch has joined ##crawl-dev 01:59:16 -!- elliptic has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 02:03:14 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:16:48 Meep. 02:16:49 ekiM: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 02:16:53 !messages 02:16:56 (1/1) greensnark said (5h 11m 15s ago): Nice going on the Lua macro. I'd be happy to help debug issues. 02:19:25 !tell greensnark (: Thanks very much. Here's where I got up to last night: http://pastebin.com/9xq0wRCp 02:19:25 ekiM: OK, I'll let greensnark know. 02:23:34 moin 02:23:49 greensnark, ping 02:34:50 greensnark, what do you think of having two tags, primary and secondary, with 'secondary' being somehow implicitly set when none of them are specified? 02:35:15 greensnark, then the dungeon builder could simply select vaults by tags (first try primary, and, faiilng that, layout, + some amount of secondaries) 02:35:44 greensnark, of course, there are problems like, what to do with PLACE? And how many secondary vauilts should be built? 02:39:46 -!- monqy has quit [Quit: hello] 02:46:01 -!- Clatch has left ##crawl-dev 02:46:41 -!- aze5 has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:48:02 -!- casmith789 has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:55:03 ekiM: That looks cool! 02:59:58 -!- ZChris13 has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86.1 [Firefox 3.6.15/20110303024726]] 03:00:18 The undead using Vampire Draining should clearly get "You feel unlife coursing back into your body!" 03:02:48 -!- Neovangl1st has joined ##crawl-dev 03:03:37 Hmh, lantern of shadows graphical effect is not great usability-wise. Could something ala the berserk red film change be done? 03:04:42 -!- Neovanglist has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:18:43 Keskitalo: Leda's and Tornado need a new effect too :/ 03:26:54 -!- Twinge_ has joined ##crawl-dev 03:28:10 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 03:28:14 -!- Twinge has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:31:14 Hmm, Henzell reports "entered an Ice Cave (Vault:4)" but Gretell reports "entered and Ice Cave (IceCv)" 03:31:20 greensnark: poke? ^ 03:33:02 Hm. 03:33:07 Is it the same report? 03:33:22 !lg * br.enter=icecv 03:33:23 Unknown selector: br.enter 03:33:26 !lm * br.enter=icecv 03:33:33 Nope, Henzell's retport is just more informative. 03:33:38 2154. [2011-03-21] IonFrigate the Reanimator (L16 SENe) entered an Ice Cave on turn 48508. (D:19) 03:33:39 Might be! 03:33:49 Oh! 03:34:03 It might be a regression then, unless Gretell isn't passing the right info -- or being passed. 03:34:18 0.7 at least passes the right entry-point to the milestone. 03:34:28 It's possible there's a regression. I don't remember if I coded that fix or if someone else did. 03:37:24 Heh, it looks like my easy/hard ice cave selecting is not working in actual games. I probably should have tested that properly. 03:40:08 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 03:46:08 (I failed to test creating the entry vaults at the interesting depths; the easy/hard switch does work when a easy/hard portal is created) 03:46:34 I possibly should have used you.in_branch rather than you.branch? 03:49:35 yes 03:49:52 you.branch is clua, you.in_branch is dlua 03:51:13 As in "client lua", vs "dungeon lua"? What is the difference in this casE? 03:51:20 you.subdepth is fine? 03:51:25 dungeon lua is what you use in .des files 03:52:15 but wait, I might be confused here as well 03:52:15 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 03:52:30 Keskitalo, oh, you.branch is a function 03:52:49 you compare it with strings, that doesn't work :P 03:53:21 you need to call it 03:53:32 so you.branch() == ..., and you.subdepth() >= ... 03:54:33 and yes, that should work in dlua, too, no need for you.in_branch 03:56:23 or well. 03:56:48 greensnark, is you_clib supposed to be accessible from dlua? 03:57:20 greensnark, because it seems to work.. but it's clua! 04:07:51 Keskitalo: I like the idea of a sewer with clinging monsters. If you think it would be more balanced with cockroach and geckos than spiders, I don't mind. Also, more clinging monsters = more use of the clinging code = more bug reports which is good. 04:08:33 casmith789: you forgot about the freaking doubling of damage-per-time, which makes the brand better than anything but special cases like qblades of pain by a large margin 04:09:42 casmith789: among brands with damage multiplier the max is holy wrath which is +75% against some enemies only. Speed was +100% against everything. 04:10:22 I think clua is accessible from dlua but not vice versa. 04:10:58 ekiM: anything else would be a bug 04:10:59 ekiM, seems like that's the case, yeah 04:11:13 which makes me wonder about the purpose of the partly overlapping functions, like you.in_branch 04:11:42 Keskitalo: Thanks! 04:48:42 -!- Pseudonut has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:02:09 -!- upsy has joined ##crawl-dev 05:02:41 duhhh, functions() 05:02:43 Zaba: Thanks 05:02:57 I'm not sure when I'll be able to push the fix, anyone who'd like to do that? 05:03:20 galehar: I don't know about balanced, but they're existing monsters and thematic for sewers 05:03:26 Keskitalo, I can push it 05:03:28 and make sense for clinging 05:03:31 Zaba: Many thanks! 05:04:05 do you have a patch? 05:05:12 ah, no.. the offending lines would be 46, 47, 53,53 and 55 in icecave.des 05:05:38 Zaba: it would make sense to update most of the item table functions to be combined rather than separate 05:05:43 but ... motivation :) 05:05:45 53, 54 instead of 53, 53 of course 05:05:55 okay, I'll fix it 05:05:59 thank you 05:08:29 03zaba * rbc9b51bd2c8a 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/portals/icecave.des: icecave.des: Fix calls to you.branch and you.subdepth. 05:08:40 03zaba * r9c2531986618 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/builder/layout.des: Make the call to spotty_map guaranteed in layout_misc. 05:23:50 i - +1 robe of the Mutiny {rElec rPois} 05:23:57 The things found on D:3 while testing Lua... 05:40:07 -!- evilmike has quit [] 05:44:54 -!- MakMorn has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:50:02 Keskitalo: Henzell reports oplace if available for portal vaults 05:50:05 greensnark: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 05:50:09 It'd be very useful for monitoring Ice Cave activity if Gretell did so too! 05:50:09 Ooooo, oplace! 05:50:09 Gretell is always a bit behind the curve because the code is completely different. I should split the announcement core out into a module that both share 05:50:09 Ah, okay. 05:50:10 !lm * cdo br.enter=icecv 05:50:10 Does that work 05:50:10 1005. [2011-03-21] evilmike the Warrior (L15 HOGl) entered an Ice Cave on turn 28669. (D:13) 05:50:10 !lm * cdo br.enter=icecv s=oplace 05:50:11 1005 milestones for * (cdo br.enter=icecv): 110x IceCv, 73x D:14, 66x D:16, 58x Lair:7, 52x Lair:6, 51x D:15, 49x D:18, 44x Vault:3, 43x D:17, 43x Vault:2, 30x Vault:1, 30x Vault:4, 27x D:20, 24x Vault:5, 23x D:19, 22x Vault:7, 22x Lair:8, 20x Vault:6, 20x Lair:1, 20x Elf:2, 18x D:11, 17x Elf:3, 16x Elf:4, 15x D:12, 15x Lair:4, 15x Lair:3, 14x Lair:2, 12x D:13, 11x Elf:5, 9x Elf:6, 9x Orc:2, 7x La... 05:50:49 Looks like the usual case of accumulating ice caves at the top of their depth range 05:50:55 yeah 05:51:07 Picking the depths at game start would be <3 05:51:08 Which may be what you want, dunno :) 05:51:19 Ah, so it isn't what you want :) 05:51:20 Not really, easiness is decided by depth 05:51:29 greensnark, could that picking of depths on startup be used for placing branch entries? 05:51:30 So, much more easy caves 05:51:40 Zaba: Yes 05:51:54 too little ice fiends 05:51:54 that'd be lovely 05:52:04 For anything that the game wants to decide about dungeon structure at a) start of game b) start of level building 05:52:07 although I believe startdepth of branches is used for some other things, aside from dungeon generation; how'd we handle that? 05:52:12 including temples, etc. 05:52:37 Well, it would be easy to make branches first-class structures accessible from Lua 05:52:40 branch defs are simple 05:53:01 Although bloody enum handling is less so, so moving all branch defs to Lua will have to wait :P 05:53:09 'sup greensnark. 05:53:13 Modifying start depths of branches from Lua should be easy, though 05:53:20 ekiMaceous 05:53:35 Got that macro working? 05:53:42 Yus! 05:54:08 Yay 05:54:32 For Sif and for staff (with autowielding of a staff of channeling in inventory, with a prompt if cursed). It also prompts at each stage of hunger to check you want to keep going. 05:54:32 greensnark, so what do you think of having 'primary' and 'secondary' vault tags, with the latter being implicit if neither is specified? Then dungeon building would basically be, "pick vault by 'primary' tag, or build a layout. Then build vaults with the 'secondary' tag." 05:55:11 Zaba: Sounds good 05:55:28 greensnark, the two immediately visible problems are: How to handle PLACE: and how many secondary vaults to build? 05:55:57 Well, when searching for primary vaults, you'd first look for vaults by PLACE, then random vaults by depth 05:56:11 When looking for secondary vaults, again by PLACE, CHANCE, then DEPTH 05:56:11 One teensy thing to pick your brains about, in http://pastebin.com/1uQZTdnp if I don't include line 123 then after the first iteration Crawl says it's not ready to process more keys yet.. even though that line isn't doing anything. I don't think I understand how to yield properly. :p 05:57:05 Ah, the mpr that you mentioned earlier 05:57:14 It looks like a Crawl bug, actually 05:58:10 Lua macros that yield between turns isn't exactly a common code path, so I wouldn't be surprised if it's just code rot 05:58:20 MmmrottyMcRot. 05:59:44 Alright, thanks. I'll just spam blank lines for now, I guess! 05:59:56 -!- Zaba has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:00:20 using COLOUR: . = blue will colour randomly spawned traps blue as well.. I was wondering, if it'd be tricky to do "KFEAT: . = floor colour:blue tile:frozen_floor" or something 06:00:26 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 06:02:17 Keskitalo: But you want the traps to be blue when undiscovered, and change to their normal colour when discovered 06:02:32 So all that's needed is to clear the colour mask on the trap when it's discovered 06:11:31 ach, true 06:18:15 03greensnark * r035ddf802c84 10/crawl-ref/source/l_crawl.cc: Fix crawl.process_keys() refusing to run when called from DELAY_MACRO (ekiM). 06:29:30 -!- galehar_ has joined ##crawl-dev 06:48:20 -!- Textmode has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:55:08 -!- casmith789 has joined ##crawl-dev 06:56:40 -!- ais523 has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:58:54 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 07:05:01 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 07:05:32 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 07:06:55 -!- galehar_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:07:26 -!- edlothiol has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:07:34 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 07:09:58 -!- edlothiol has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:13:59 -!- ais523 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:18:02 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 07:33:59 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 08:01:00 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 08:07:02 -!- edlothiol has quit [Quit: edlothiol] 08:07:12 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 08:12:44 deletion of clouds on taking stairs is abusable (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3626) by KiloByte 08:30:26 03MarvinPA * r07b2554d9e5b 10/crawl-ref/source/ (ghost.cc monster.cc): Improve random pan lords 08:30:37 03MarvinPA * rf055b79ccaa9 10/crawl-ref/source/ (item_use.cc main.cc skills2.cc skills2.h): Remove misleading messages about weapon str/dex weighting 08:30:37 03MarvinPA * rb39dc91a6bb9 10/crawl-ref/source/ (item_use.cc item_use.h player-equip.cc player.h): Warn when equipping armour with a penalty caused by low strength 08:34:07 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 08:35:55 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:36:39 Rawr 08:36:44 !messages 08:36:45 (1/1) Cryp71c said (9h 39m 48s ago): https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:species:lava_orc 08:41:12 Eronarn: admitedly, the status of lava orcs looks pretty good, from what I can see on that wiki. If for nothing else, it extends the new "temperature" mechanic, which is neat and may open new doors. 08:44:47 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 08:50:02 re 08:50:16 re? 08:51:28 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:54:17 MarvinPA: btw, I know you said you didn't have much experience with the fight code, just trying to get a well-rounded idea of stuff to work into planning the new system. 08:54:38 MarvinPA: so if you have any ideas for effects that seem difficult to implement under the new system, add them to the wiki or let me know. 08:54:49 sure :) 08:55:06 i think the main one that springs to mind is an easier implementation of spines and similar effects, for both players and monsters 08:55:14 I'd rather have too many ideas to implement than too few (and miss out on a more clean implementation) 08:55:18 which you already mentioned i believe 08:58:20 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 08:59:38 -!- Twilight13 has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:01:31 -!- edlothiol has quit [Client Quit] 09:03:23 Cryp71c: what about dual weapons? The version planned for 4.1 but only stubbed was to: 1. allow using single-handed, 2. if wielded two-handed, you have a chance of two weaker attacks instead of one. 09:05:24 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 09:05:46 we have such gems as dire flails that are utterly useless, and lajatangs which are supposed to be good but have low maxdelay (ie, little skill needed) as the only perk -- with worse damage than some 1-handers 09:06:07 kilobyte: I can add that to the list, that would be quite nice. I've also added parrying, which I think should apply (maybe even be its own skill?) if you're reasonable amount of both strength and dexterity (and would also apply for dual-wielders) 09:09:47 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:12:26 03kilobyte * r0ba5a2a4ac73 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/variable/float.des: Don't try to place lemuel_elevator on first and last level of a branch. 09:12:37 03kilobyte * r3f8890cf5d21 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/builder/dummy.des: Give deep parts of the main dungeon better chances for a primary vault. 09:12:38 03kilobyte * r12f39ce99fd6 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/variable/traps.des: Don't block off branches with grates. 09:12:38 03kilobyte * r5cc9a1fdff16 10/crawl-ref/source/branch-data.h: Forbid rock from masquerading as stone/metal/slime. 09:12:39 03kilobyte * r7c140cb419c9 10/crawl-ref/source/ (command.cc main.cc wiz-dgn.cc wiz-dgn.h): A wizmode command (& ^R) to recreate the current level. 09:12:42 03kilobyte * r320bc3138a82 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/variable/float.des: Let vaults in Zot spawn more often. 09:12:42 03kilobyte * rf7c4fac53a8d 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/branches/hells.des: Remove some commented out junk. 09:12:43 03kilobyte * r37c64b2702b9 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/branches/zot.des: Make console Zot rock consistent with tiles (and not stony). 09:13:17 nice, more big vaults in late D? 09:13:54 kilobyte, um 09:14:01 there's a better way to do those dummies 09:14:17 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 09:14:27 Zaba: you mean, the second layer? 09:14:27 hmm, what's lemuel_elevator? 09:14:40 ais523: <> in glass 09:15:26 kilobyte, you can have CHANCE: 0 : 0 (D:26-27), 0 : 5000 (D:24-25), 0 : 7500 (D:20-23), 0 : 8888 09:15:35 ah, that one 09:15:46 ah, nice 09:15:47 kilobyte, no need to make a separate vault for each chance 09:16:07 -!- edlothiol has quit [Client Quit] 09:16:19 kilobyte, that also lets us merge the Swamp dummy vault into the generic one 09:16:48 and the ugly second dummy 09:16:55 yeah 09:19:51 -!- ais523 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:21:13 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 09:21:46 should I replace the CHANCE: line, or will you do that? 09:29:29 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 09:30:08 kilobyte, i will do it if you don't :> 09:32:02 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 09:36:22 mapstat shows a lot of gems like this (just remember to disable forest_0.8 first) 09:37:24 not sure what to do to Zot:5, the selection of regular vaults there is exceedingly narrow 09:38:57 well, non-minivaults would have issues being placed, I imagine 09:39:13 does the level need non-orb-chamber vaults? and if so, what sort of thing should they be? 09:40:31 currently, there's just lemuel_zot_upstairs (a line of Zot traps you can at most blink over) and grate trap which I just enabled 09:41:10 all other regular vaults are limited to Zot:*-4 09:41:39 that orb of fire lake vault can be on zot:5, it's great 09:41:52 and the electric golem cage 09:42:22 i used the orb of fire lake for my orb destruction, although i think it might've been on zot:4 09:42:28 !lm . type=orb.destroy 09:42:30 1. [2010-08-05] MarvinPA the Backstabber (L20 SpEn) destroyed the Orb of Zot (Zot:5) 09:42:34 ahah nope 09:43:16 Xom's Almanac of @player_death@ (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3627) by Ragdoll 09:43:25 lemuel_lake_of_fire is a mini vault 09:43:52 primary_mini_dummy (67.00%), mini_dummy (19.55%), 09:43:52 lemuel_baited_zot_trap (4.56%), lemuel_flame_loot_1 (2.31%), 09:43:52 lemuel_lake_of_fire (2.26%), lemuel_golem_globe (2.21%), nrook_zot_tub (2.11%) 09:44:23 hmm, and why /wouldn't/ Xom gift books with metasyntactic variables in them on occasion? 09:44:26 03MarvinPA * r3e5ff7a7dd9f 10/crawl-ref/source/religion.cc: Don't let Yred gift Eidolons anymore 09:44:30 zot tub, best vault. 09:44:40 don't doubt Xom 09:45:03 someone go and add Xom's Tome on Insert Name Here to the random bookname lists 09:45:56 -!- TGQiglaf has joined ##crawl-dev 09:46:15 so crusader's name is seen as misleading, right? 09:46:24 imo it should be changed to "man-at-charms" 09:46:53 TGQiglaf: that's a NetHack-quality pun 09:46:55 worse, actually 09:47:18 if nethack used that pun I would be playing it right now 09:47:24 What are you talking about ais523. 09:47:51 ekiM: "man-at-charms" 09:53:51 TGQiglaf: beware. Somebody probably added it to slash'em. 09:54:02 * bhaak creates a "delete puns from nethack" facebook group 09:54:48 does Crawl have any puns? 09:55:01 and is keeping it pun-free a deliberate design philosophy? 09:55:21 the name is a pun on its own compilation 09:55:27 what kind of self-respecting game doesn't have puns? 09:55:28 MSH is sort of a pun 09:55:42 it's also a terrible pop culture reference (hey guys this spell has the same name as a song) 09:56:33 -!- TGQiglaf has quit [Quit: Page closed] 09:56:54 Crawl has puns. 09:57:11 but you need to be at least as old as dpeg to know that MSH is a pun 09:59:15 how old's dpeg? 09:59:33 Over 9000 years old 09:59:50 He's really a bristlecone pine in disguise 10:00:01 when he first played nethack he liked it! that's how old he is! 10:00:20 bhaak: in that case I'm that old, too 10:00:40 ais523: I'm not surprised :-) 10:03:00 < ais523> does Crawl have any puns? 10:03:02 boring beetle 10:03:04 chief of staff 10:03:32 I didn't realise "boring beetle" was a pun, but I'll give you the other one 10:03:44 boring beetle <3 10:04:20 "You hear a grinding noise. You're getting bored of this"? 10:04:30 Zaba: what's the point in Swamp being excepted from regular vault dummies if there are no regular vaults there at all? 10:05:55 kilobyte, no idea 10:06:10 greensnark, any idea? :P 10:06:38 There used to be some swamp vaults, dunno 10:06:45 I don't remember why :P 10:07:04 Does swamp have its own dummy or something 10:07:13 apparently no 10:07:13 kilobyte, that '!Swamp' in primary_dummy can be removed, I guess 10:07:17 Wretched rsync takes hours just to fetch ttyrec file list from cao 10:07:34 except for dummy_balancer_other which hits everything but D 10:07:43 there was an awesome vault i got in swamp once that was just a pillar of rock with a few thousand gold next to it in a single pile 10:07:52 (that's moot for Swamp because of no regular vaults) 10:07:57 !players 10:07:58 21 players: hxy, chowder, snoopy, Stossel, dazguss, nuc, russell, mindloss, moramartin, rizdon7777, ledneh, tortfeasor, VZ, nerdbeard, silvous, Arafel, Clouseau, qoon, cosinusvux, MrWerewolf, qubitsu 10:08:04 Ack, why are so many players on cao :P 10:08:12 kilobyte, ...wait, there might be vaults in float.des/etc. that can go in Swamp 10:08:24 Alter the new Speed Brand text (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3628) by XuaXua 10:08:28 mapstat shows none 10:08:44 kilobyte, ah, only minivaults 10:09:49 if you don't have updated mapstat, http://angband.pl/tmp/mapgen.log (since it takes ~20 mins to generate) 10:10:14 Looks like all minvaults are restricted to a very few branches 10:10:54 So only those 2-3 minivaults in swamp.des, I guess 10:11:25 mapstat accounts for 'extra' vaults, right? 10:11:37 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:12:23 kilobyte: wrt dual weapons: it would make sense for them to have good weapon effects, but worse damage than two-handers, and only get those effects when wielded with two hands 10:12:26 mapstat builds a bunch of levels and sees what vaults are used. That uses the regular dungeon builder so it finds extras, etc. 10:12:39 vaults that are _not_ restricted to an explicit list of branches cause problems... For example, there was a crasher bug that I kludged around by making it bail out after thousands of tries (don't remember the details). 10:12:40 mapstat also tries to calculate the odds of each vault at each level, which is code that may bitrot 10:13:31 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 10:15:02 oh, "speed" branded weapon do less damage now? 10:15:10 moin moin! 10:15:36 Eronarn: 2h staff damage: common 7, rare 14. Axe damage: common 17, rare 20. That's your worse damage, already there. 10:16:11 Napkin: 80% of what they did before. 10:16:38 is that reflected in the info screen? 10:17:13 ie, to use common numbers: vorpal +12.5%, flaming/freezing +25%, speed +60%, holy +75% 10:17:13 *description screen of the weapon 10:17:36 elliptic was saying yesterday that since it's applied before AC, it makes things like sabres of speed significantly worse without having as much of an impact on the crazy randarts like exec axes of speed 10:17:37 (2*80%) 10:17:53 so, do you think it's an overnerf? 10:18:08 kilobyte: well, you can't directly compare those two because the staffs are much faster 10:18:09 i'm not entirely sure since i don't know exactly how it all works, but perhaps 10:18:19 if so, please revert or reduce. We don't have time to balance it if it's contentious. 10:18:42 better would be comparing it to, say, a broad axe 10:18:42 true, yeah 10:18:45 ??broad axe 10:18:45 broad axe[1/1]: Hand and a Half Axe (Damage 14, Acc -2, Delay 160%). 10:18:47 ??lajatang 10:18:48 lajatang[1/1]: Big brother to the quarterstaff. 14 damage, -3 accuracy, 140 speed, double handed. Slashing. Double-handed means extreme penalties for using with shields! 10:19:12 Eronarn: broad axe is 1-handed 10:19:15 could the true damage and delay be shown on speed weapons? 10:19:21 no, it's 1.5 handed 10:19:31 if that's not the case already.. 10:19:56 i forget exactly how the speed mods work for shields for 1.5/double handers, but broad axe is a lot more comparable to lajatang than battleaxe, regardless 10:20:16 Eronarn: with enough skill, the penalty goes away, and the current fad is to use the smallest shield possible 10:20:20 it is definitely an issue that the top-tier staff weapon caps out so early though 10:20:46 i just don't think lajatangs are bad per se, they're quite good early on, they just don't hold up 10:20:52 it'd be nice to get several new staff base types 10:21:09 Eronarn: an idea: staff sling (fustibale) 10:21:17 that'd be cute 10:21:25 there's also demonic sceptre currently mostly untapped 10:21:40 iron-shod staves 10:21:44 halfstaff, longstaff 10:22:13 and if lajatang itself counts as a staff rather than a polearm, there are other exotic things that could be used 10:22:15 it had better range than regular slings but was significantly slower; it could serve as a melee weapon too 10:22:23 like a sodegarami 10:22:58 if we s/better range/more damage/, all of that is well-defined for Crawl 10:23:12 yeah 10:23:16 though it'll break ranged combat even further, heh 10:24:24 might be nice to get a demon axe in there, too, just for symmetry's sake 10:24:38 why? It would be weaker both to slings and to staves. The former because it's damage-to-time what counts, the latter because the slingy part interferes with melee. 10:24:47 ??obsidian axe 10:24:48 obsidian axe[1/1]: A +12, +15 broad axe of chopping that mesmerises you whenever a monster is in sight. +3 Str, SInv, always recurses, sometimes summons a friendly demon (2, 3 or 4) when you kill stuff. Also cures confusion when you're mesmerised. 10:25:01 i mean as a base type 10:25:01 weapon classes don't need to be symmetrical :P 10:25:32 having "demon foo" for everything would be boring 10:25:33 are slings broken atm? 10:25:47 kilobyte: ranged combat is... very strange, and hard to calculate damage for 10:25:56 axes being more heavily skewed towards two-handers seems reasonable, too - since weapon types are pretty poorly differentiated at the moment it's at least something that makes a difference 10:25:56 upping base damage could definitely make it even more OP 10:26:00 also, you could simulate better range by adding a slight piercing effect, allowing it to hit the second monster in line of fire as well as the first 10:26:13 MarvinPA: make executioner's axe a demon weapon imo :P 10:26:50 no one uses two-handers these days 10:27:02 already is, executioners are demons :) 10:27:10 well, non-casters do 10:27:16 what's mesmerisation (e.g. from the obsidian axe) defined with reference to? 10:27:17 st_: take a glance at their tile and description 10:27:19 st_: yes, there's a pan vault that makes use of the pun 10:27:32 ais523: any enemy presumably 10:27:44 maybe nearest one? 10:27:49 who knows!! 10:29:00 -!- Twilight13 has joined ##crawl-dev 10:29:28 Eronarn: yeah, I slipped it through dpeg inside a bigger patch before we had the git dev explosion 10:30:04 there's that proposed unique executioner... 10:30:07 kilobyte: we need executioner's scythes 10:30:18 i don't think executioners actually need to use exe axes 10:30:21 kind of like: 10:30:25 ??spriggans knife 10:30:28 the spriggans knife[1/1]: This knife was made by Spriggans, or for Spriggans, or possibly from Spriggans. Anyway, it's in some way associated with those fey folk. +4EV, +4Dex, It increases your resistance to enchantments. It makes you much more stealthy. 10:31:44 the new ! toggle for quotes/descriptions is nice 10:32:09 a scythe is an execution weapon? 10:32:15 no 10:32:24 a scythe is a reaping non-weapon 10:33:01 executioners are made of them apparently 10:33:12 oh, here's an idea 10:33:37 give the temp-death-channel effect to the reaping brand (so it makes a ghostly thing from them, but still leaves a corpse) 10:33:43 http://gitorious.org/crawl/crawl/blobs/master/crawl-ref/source/rltiles/dc-mon/demons/executioner.png 10:33:58 doesn't look like a creature who could possibly wield a weapon 10:34:01 and let it work on summons (if reaping kills them, their body poofs, but their spirit still remains for the duration of the summon) 10:34:10 i thought they used weapons 10:34:15 is this an attempt to buff reaping? 10:34:32 I thought they were made out of weapons. 10:34:33 then give reapers reaping on their attack, in addition to their weapon brand 10:35:52 but just look at this sweet guy: http://gitorious.org/crawl/crawl/blobs/master/crawl-ref/source/rltiles/UNUSED/monsters/ignacio.png 10:36:04 ais523: well, i think it'd be more interesting than reaping, at least 10:36:09 not sure how much of a buff it is 10:36:23 it seems like an uninteresting effect in the hands of monsters 10:36:28 but I suppose regular reaping is too 10:36:49 what exactly can monsters reap? 10:36:55 kilobyte: beogh 10:37:01 yeah, and nothing else 10:37:09 ais523: if it worked on summons - clearly cannot happen with zombies, but could wiht spirits - it might come up more often 10:37:10 was that tile ever used or do people just make them for things that don't exist 10:37:22 do summoners really need a nerf? 10:37:30 ??ignacio 10:37:32 I don't have a page labeled ignacio in my learndb. 10:37:35 !lg * s=char 10:38:02 what's popular is probably a good guide to what's good, as on average, players will play what's perceived to be easy, unless they're looking for a challenge 10:38:05 it's a buff to reapers, not a nerf to summoners specifically 10:38:08 upsy: it's a proposed unique, however, the tile was posted on a hosting site I know to be unreliable so I copied it in to be safe 10:38:10 reapers are wimps 10:38:13 960040 games for *: 45941x DEWn, 34088x MDFi, 22632x SpEn, 21573x DSCK, 17324x DEWz, 15707x MfCr, 15168x SETm, 14272x DECj, 12409x MiBe, 11984x DEFE, 11013x HOFi, 10894x DETh, 10824x HOPr, 10581x DSFi, 10564x MuNe, 10473x HEWz, 10441x TrBe, 10285x DEEn, 10002x DSWn, 9001x SpAs, 8686x DESt, 8108x DEAr, 7900x MuWz, 7898x HECr, 6728x SpSt, 6459x MDBe, 6301x MDPa, 6174x DSCr, 6079x DSNe, 5987x MiFi, 5... 10:38:20 summoners are good but tedious, mostly 10:38:30 well, it's a monster buff that only affects one sort of character type 10:38:35 also, DEWn? seriously? 10:38:45 mega startscumming 10:38:51 !lg * s=char name!~~sebi 10:39:16 870442 games for * (name!~~sebi): 34087x MDFi, 22632x SpEn, 21573x DSCK, 17317x DEWz, 15707x MfCr, 15114x SETm, 14272x DECj, 12409x MiBe, 11984x DEFE, 11013x HOFi, 10824x HOPr, 10581x DSFi, 10564x MuNe, 10472x HEWz, 10441x TrBe, 10001x DSWn, 9001x SpAs, 7900x MuWz, 7888x HECr, 6725x SpSt, 6459x MDBe, 6301x MDPa, 6174x DSCr, 6079x DSNe, 5987x MiFi, 5974x DSBe, 5636x HEPa, 5264x DSGl, 5026x HuFi, 49... 10:39:36 ais523: heck, it'd be a buff if you extended the effect to death channel 10:40:01 summoners using it could rely on each of their living summons creating a new spawn when dying 10:40:03 summoners don't cast death channel usually :P 10:40:17 necro/summoning are a little redundant 10:40:21 which is arguably bad 10:40:35 * kilobyte haunts ais523. 10:40:42 Is "Rox"anne a pun? 10:40:48 ekiM: oh right, it is 10:40:56 ekiM: eh, why? 10:41:01 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 10:41:04 kilobyte: Rocks, earth mage. 10:41:06 not only that, but the exact same pun was made in Pokémon third generation 10:41:14 it's a quite popular name 10:41:18 (you can tell it's a pun there, because the Rock gym leader has been an awful pun in every single generation) 10:41:19 @??chuck 10:41:19 Chuck (16C) | Speed: 10 | HD: 18 | Health: 120 | AC/EV: 14/2 | Damage: 45 | Res: 06magic(96), 12drown | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 3023. 10:41:37 @??iron giant 10:41:38 the iron giant (10C) | Speed: 10 | HD: 22 | Health: 220 | AC/EV: 18/2 | Damage: 60 | Flags: !sil | Res: 06magic(117), 05fire, 02cold, 03poison, 12drown | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 7793 | Sp: iron shot (3d37), iron elementals. 10:41:53 irony elementals 10:42:53 @??stone giant 10:42:53 stone giant (15C) | Speed: 10 | HD: 16 | Health: 65-108 | AC/EV: 12/2 | Damage: 45 | Res: 06magic(85), 12drown | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 2026. 10:54:22 -!- ais523 has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:54:28 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 10:57:24 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:06:06 -!- ais523 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:06:14 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 11:07:54 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 11:09:21 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:23:55 -!- ais523_ has joined ##crawl-dev 11:25:41 -!- ais523 has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:26:09 12:25 < ekiM> New Earth title: Rockstar. 11:26:12 -!- ais523_ is now known as ais523 11:26:56 -!- Twilight13 has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 11:28:11 -!- Twilight-1 has joined ##crawl-dev 11:28:35 Alrighty, what have I missed? 11:33:28 Cryp71c: you should make a wiki page for the fight.cc thing or something 11:33:41 there is one 11:33:44 maybe a flowchart, if you have access to one of those nifty code analyzer things 11:33:52 fight rewrite, i think 11:34:36 oh, good 11:35:06 Eronarn: I already did :) 11:35:33 Cryp71c: looks pretty good 11:35:50 one major thought of mine is that there are some major issues when you 'jump' from one scope to another 11:36:03 like: what happened in one attack affecting what happens in the next attack 11:36:03 I'm about to create a class method list of attacker / defender methods as they are now and then another for what I want them to look like post-rewrite. 11:36:17 or what happens in hurt() being affected by what happened during the attack that caused the hurt() 11:36:18 Eronarn: specific example of an effect that does that? 11:36:35 Cryp71c: ok, for my trample patch (this will take a few lines) 11:36:46 > 3 lines, pastebin pl0x 11:37:08 right now, trample kicks in if a) they have a valid trample location b) you hit them c) they are alive after hurt() gets called 11:37:25 This is for player trample, or monster trample? 11:37:30 i wanted to change this so that c) was not a factor: they would be trampled even if they were killed during the attack (with the status quo, if a trampler kills something, it stays put) 11:37:31 (I thought monster trample already existed) 11:37:34 both 11:37:38 player trample exists, for dragonform 11:37:55 it'd make sense for tramples to not move the corpse, really 11:37:58 this is a patch to modify trmaple behavior 11:38:07 ais523: it doesn't, in mine :) 11:38:10 crushing something underfoot is more interesting then pushing them back in such a way they drop dead 11:38:22 but the trampler moves into the square the corpse was in 11:38:41 ah, that's also correct 11:38:45 also lets you trample untrampleable things, like statues, if you kill them during your attack 11:38:54 for monsters at least, IIRC there was some debate about players 11:39:02 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:39:06 the idea is: trample = an attack where you move into their square, and you only bounce back to yours if there's no room in that square for you at the end of your attack 11:39:13 room is generated by either pushing them out or killing them 11:39:27 anyways 11:39:48 this proved to be very difficult because the monster was already dead after hurt() 11:40:27 hurt() is not in melee_attack so it doesn't have the same class variables describing the nature of the current attack 11:40:57 there's something similar with MF_EXPLODE_KILL; it's a flag that has to be set on the monster before hurt() gets called, to pass in that information 11:41:41 ideally, there would be a unified combat framework that all damage occurs in 11:42:04 As a related note, hurt should either be a method of attacker/defender, or a method of the attack (or both). I think right now its just a method of the attacker/defender? 11:42:13 i think also we should consider having a queue, of sorts, rather than applying effects all-at-once 11:42:25 Cryp71c: remember, hurt() gets used everywhere stuff gets hurt 11:42:40 it's unrelated to fight.cc 11:43:10 Well, if its a method of actor, it should inherit downwards to attacker/defender. 11:43:18 But still be universally available for other situations. 11:43:36 Cryp71c: it's available, but attacker/defender don't carry melee_attack 11:43:46 correct 11:43:56 it's not an issue of it being unavailable, it's an issue of it being poorly integrated with other information one might need to actually properly process what happens when something gets hurt 11:44:27 having one central point that all HP damage goes through is a good idea, but it needs to be far more flexible 11:45:15 the way NetHack's source does it, IIRC, is for combat functions to return an indication of if the monster they refer to is still alive 11:45:21 and then the caller has to handle death effects 11:45:30 but I'm not sure that works too well either 11:45:32 What about having "attack" be a member variable of the actor class that is changed for each attack that occurs as necessary 11:45:53 (that is, death effects depending on the attack, rather than just on the monster) 11:45:56 (where melee_attack and ranged_attack inherit from "attack") 11:46:07 Cryp71c: here's what i'd like to see: 11:46:09 ouch, that's basically passing params in global variables, just disguised 11:46:37 ais523: thats all class-based accessibility is, if you take that perspective. 11:46:55 Imo (at least at first glance) it doesn't seem that terrible. 11:47:21 normally you can work out how sane something like that is by considering its effect on parallelism 11:47:34 e.g., what if you want the same actor to do two attack simultaneously on different processors? 11:47:42 ofc, you don't, but it serves as a good sanity check 11:48:23 actor class has an 'action' field with a pointer to an 'action' class. 'action' is like melee_attack but more generalizeable. it can contain multiple 'subactions'. 'action' gets called with some initializing information, such as the target (the 'defender'). it then generates each subaction in turn, 11:48:38 like how it currently calls the attack function multiple times if something makes multiple attacks 11:48:43 oh, I see 11:48:50 I assumed "actor" was the player or monster performing the actoin 11:48:51 *action 11:48:55 subaction information is *stored*, however, so that in subaction 3 you have all the variables from 1 and 2 available 11:48:55 I think it makes sense if that's what it's doing 11:49:21 thus, you can tell if something was trampled on a previous attack, and abort to attack something else. or whatever 11:49:23 actor is currently independent melee_attack, and it should remain that way 11:49:35 ais523 is right 11:50:04 it's so hard making general comments about coding without knowing if they apply in the specific case 11:50:15 You can have the concept of a current action if you like, but don't make it a member of the actor class 11:50:48 ais523: I like your example of how not being parallelizable is a good example of code smell 11:51:02 Eronarn: an action stack, essentially, such that you can continue to push onto the stack and access the previous list of actions to determine a pattern. 11:51:29 Cryp71c: yes 11:51:34 greensnark: it's probably the simplest test of whether something is more global than it should be 11:51:40 Yep 11:51:53 -!- ais523 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:52:11 Eronarn: I think this action stack, if it directly ties into attacks (the melee_attack / ranged_attack) directly contradicts what greensnark / ais are saying, correct? 11:52:17 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 11:52:30 I'm saying don't stuff this action instance or stack into the actor class 11:52:35 Cryp71c: what they're saying is to not have it tied in with actor 11:53:50 i'd have a pointer to an actor's action, or a defender's being-acted-on, in actor - but i'm also not a good coder, so that doesn't mean it's right 11:54:26 I think it's possibly backwards; putting a pointer to the attacker and defender in the action would make more sense 11:54:29 actor shouldn't have members for this kind of thing at all 11:54:34 (although in C++, you have issues of destructor order) 11:54:41 What ais523 said 11:54:42 (and I'm not sure how Crawl deals with those) 11:54:57 are monsters deallocated upon death? or later? 11:55:00 melee_attack currently refers to the attacker and defender actors, your hypothetical action class would do the same 11:55:09 ais523: monsters are not deallocated at all 11:55:20 Crawl has a fixed array of monster instances; they're reused, never destroyed 11:55:30 err, right 11:55:37 I should have guessed it was something insane like that 11:55:49 I feel for you, inheriting code that works like that 11:55:52 Actually, it's pretty sane to have a monster limit 11:55:59 Pointing to attacker and defender within the action would make stringing a series of actions by a player attacking different monsters rather cumbersome 11:56:10 (fwiw, NetHack's solution is to replace monsters with placeholders until the end of the turn, then clear them all up at once) 11:56:19 and I agree that monster limits are sane 11:56:37 Once you've accepted that monster limits are sane, how Crawl stores monsters is hardly insane :P 11:56:52 Somewhat wasteful, but not incredibly so 11:57:00 well, I suppose it's the choice between being forced to have a monster limit, and having one through choice 11:57:08 greensnark: given the desire to track an actor's movements over the last 2 or 3 turns so as to determine effects like "Charging", how would you go about storing that action stack? 11:57:35 You can't store it in relation to an attack, since there isn't one yet. 11:57:41 also, hmm, I wonder if there are bugs if you're very near the limit, relating to overwriting one monster with another while there are still pointers to it? 11:57:44 I'll have to look into that 11:57:58 There are probably edge cases near the limit, but not from overwriting monsters 11:58:21 There've been occasional bugs from code trying to create monsters and not bothering to check if they got the monster they ordered, etc. 11:58:35 12:54 < ais523> I think it's possibly backwards; putting a pointer to the attacker and defender in the action would make more sense 11:58:44 that should be the case too 11:59:03 Eronarn: that should be the case for what? 11:59:13 right now, if you're inside the attack, you know who the attacker and defender are - that's good 12:00:24 the issue is passing the attacker off to other functions which have no idea that it's an attacker. granted, this is actually proper for an object, but it's also quite limiting in a codebase like crawl where the structure isn't set up to handle finding that out in alternative ways 12:00:26 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 12:01:29 "it's an attacker" doesn't really make sense, though, to be relevant in a function that isn't to do with attacking 12:01:35 Eronarn: If you're calling a function and giving it an actor and then the function tries to turn around and see if the actor's involved in an attack, then the function should probably have been given the attack in the first place 12:01:37 what if two monsters attack each other, which one's the attacker? 12:03:03 What is the sound of one hand clapping 12:03:06 greensnark: you mean as a parameter, or that the function should've been a method of the attack's class? 12:03:17 -!- ais523 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:03:17 ais523: consider the case of a monster attacking another monster, and then the second monster parries as a full attack requiring to-hit rolls and such - that's two separate actions 12:03:50 greensnark: well, yes 12:04:03 the issue is that there's a lot of functions where knowing that would be beneficial 12:04:29 03kilobyte * rb4b87243ef28 10/crawl-ref/source/ (artefact.cc artefact.h spl-book.cc): Fix placeholders in Xom's book gift names. 12:04:41 and they can't necessarily just be moved into the 'attack' class, since e.g. hurt() is used outside of attacks 12:04:55 and it'd be a bear to pass in that as an optional parameter in all of the relevant functions 12:05:04 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:06:31 Well, if you're doing a fight.cc rewrite, a few other functions are going to attract rewrites as well 12:06:37 'a few', heh 12:06:39 Including hurt() 12:07:10 yeah, i'm just looking at this from a perspective of 'how can we avoid rewriting every spell in crawl' :P 12:08:04 hm... is C++ smart enough to know the difference between this.hurt() (inside of an attack) and hurt() if there's attack::hurt() and hurt()? 12:08:09 If you-rewrite them all you can please take the opportunity to make their damage be generally of the form XdY! 12:08:21 XdY+Z 12:08:37 Yes, C++ allows you to specify the function you want with the scope resolution operator 12:09:15 that'd be one way to go about it. keep hurt() the way it is, but write attack::hurt(), and gradually try and make more stuff generate attacks and then call attack.hurt() 12:09:18 Anyway, good this fight.cc rewrite is on its own branch :) 12:09:55 or maybe make hurt() a wrapper for new blank attack, fill in as much stuff as it can with the poor amount of data available, and then attack::hurt() 12:10:17 greensnark: :) I'd like to make sure it becomes more than just its own branch, so you're continued patience with my inexperience with the combat mechanics would be <3 12:10:43 Eronarn: hurt() already takes a bunch of parameters, just create an attack class that can be initialized with just those parameters 12:11:24 Cryp71c: your/you're fail :P 12:12:28 greensnark: indeed, It happens frequently. 12:12:30 oh, one thing i'd like to see: don't actually kill monsters until an action is completely done 12:13:10 remove them from the grid, give XP, process death events, whatever - but keep the rest of their info around for a bit 12:13:49 That should be easy enough 12:14:05 yes, and it'd make several things less of a hassle 12:14:27 Looking at hurt(), it should probably become a member of the hypothetical attack class anyway 12:14:45 greensnark: it's called for spells and such too though 12:14:50 It's doing a whole bunch of things that shouldn't be part of the actor interface 12:14:58 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 12:15:06 which is of course not insurmountable, but it does add some extra quirks 12:15:10 Just put everything in stuff.cc. 12:15:46 Eronarn: That's not a problem: it's a simple function call with a few parameters, so you can create a simple attack object for those params 12:16:07 Monster creation used to use a whole bunch of functions each taking ~10 parameters 12:16:10 right, that's what i meant by having hurt() (the current one) become a wrapper for it - to generate such an object 12:16:26 Before mgen_data 12:16:45 anyhow, I actually have a job in real life. time to go do it 12:17:02 Crazy American timezones :P 12:17:17 it's actually 1:15 here, I get to set my own hours though :) 12:17:46 I'm just waiting for my cao ttyrec rsync to finish so I can free up space and go to bed 12:18:00 -!- edlothiol has quit [Client Quit] 12:18:08 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 12:18:10 !players 12:18:12 21 players: chowder, dazguss, Tenaya, Stossel, AzureAngel, theDC, firemonkey, perf, russell, Clouseau, mindloss, moramartin, Zeor, MrWerewolf, nerdbeard, Arafel, Tijol, dyzzy, qoon, qubitsu, Witch 12:18:18 I hadn't realsed so many people still play 0.7 12:18:31 cao had 1.3G free this morning, it's already down to 570M 12:18:34 greensnark: so a new attack class is obviously part of this new system, I think it'd be beneficial to subclass it out to melee_attack, ranged_attack, and magic_attack (in an ideal world) with overloadable methods as necessary. 12:19:13 Cryp71c: That doesn't sound unreasonable :) 12:19:17 Does that make sense, based on your knowledge of the current condition of attacks? 12:19:20 But yeah, keep things simple to start with 12:19:25 Yeah. 12:19:32 I'd suggest not trying to add an inheritance hierarchy at this point 12:20:07 greensnark: its hard not to XD, each thing the rewrite should support seems to imply that the rewrite should start at a lower level. 12:20:14 Using a base attack + melee_attack is good, but don't go into the others now :P 12:20:22 Otherwise, I'll write code in fight.cc that I'm going to re-write once I get attacks implemented in an inheritable fashion. 12:20:27 yeah, finish melee_attack before we even *start* ranged attack 12:20:34 ah, right. I can live with that. 12:21:00 So would hurt be a permanent wrapper for attack::hurt(), or just until the full combat scheme of *_attack is implemented? 12:21:12 the latter, presumably 12:21:30 k brb 12:21:32 might effectively become permanent since a lot of random stuff calls hurt() 12:21:42 actor::hurt() is trying to do too many things that the actor class has no business doing, so eventually it would go away 12:21:48 clouds, miscasts... 12:25:07 Wretched rsync is slow :( 12:28:32 So what about traps, for example, would they just spawn an instance of melee_attack (since traps are melee)? Do melee_attack, ranged_attack, and magic_attack cover all our bases? 12:29:04 For now 12:29:14 I suggest you don't worry overmuch about all this architecture stuff 12:29:32 Put down a list of things you want to do that the current system makes hard to do 12:29:44 And figure out how you want to solve those things 12:30:12 greensnark: that's what I'm doing. 12:30:25 Oh? The wiki page looked thin on details 12:30:28 The list of "things new system should support" is up on the wiki. 12:30:35 Got a link? 12:30:46 https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:fight_rewrite 12:30:54 In the "New system capabilities" 12:31:29 Cryp71c: converting mechanical traps to melee_attack woldn't be so bad. but, definitely code it first 12:31:40 overplanning can kill projects 12:33:25 Eronarn: I understand, the main issue is that I'm trying to rush my knowledge of the combat system up to you and greensnarks by asking lots of questions so I don't spend a week digging through code when I could've spent a few hours asking questions as they come to me (and then using those answers in the planning, since there's no reason in wasting that knowledge and it only takes a moment to write it down)) 12:33:47 (so long as you guys don't mind answering questions or giving me your perspective)' 12:34:40 You'll have to spend time figuring out the existing code anyway 12:35:03 Because you don't want to break the existing combat math 12:35:25 Frst clean up, move to the cleaner attack model 12:35:28 Then make changes 12:35:51 This is pretty important for something that affects so much of the game 12:36:20 !players 12:36:21 17 players: chowder, Stossel, AzureAngel, Kautzman, Clouseau, dyzzy, mindloss, moramartin, Ninvader, Luterac, Witch, MrWerewolf, nerdbeard, qoon, Arafel, Sylvius, qubitsu 12:36:29 !players -ea 12:36:32 8 active players: Kautzman (L10 MDPa @ D:11, T:12766), Clouseau (L9 SETm @ D:7, T:7873), dyzzy (L7 DECj @ D:5, T:4552), Ninvader (L6 DrTm @ D:4, T:5584), Luterac (L5 MfCr @ D:4, T:3886), Witch (L5 NaWz @ D:4, T:4616), qoon (L3 HEWz @ D:3, T:4065), Sylvius (L2 HERe @ D:2, T:1447) 12:36:50 Impressive how fast ttyrecs chew up space 12:38:38 they can be optimized pretty well 12:39:34 I think the dgl ttyrec just writes changes as they arrive, though 12:39:42 Haven't looked at the code 12:40:39 Hey, maybe the next few days I could upgrade the dgl on cao 12:40:43 it does... and ncurses already optimize writes quite well 12:40:55 Given that we'll soon have some space 12:41:13 cao seems to be burning about 1M of ttyrec every 10s 12:41:30 That's a lot. 12:41:33 however, tty codes are damn wasteful 12:41:34 Or at least seems like a lot. 12:42:03 they are still in the land of 1970 terminals :( 12:43:29 I wish I had a long-term plan for these ttyrecs 12:43:34 I guess that _un_optimizing could be good: I imagine giving every frame as a whole to bzip2 can let compress the thing a lot better, since it can access previously written data, unlike ncurses 12:44:27 That's an interesting theory 12:44:53 Sounds to me like that'd still produce bigger files, though 12:45:39 Btw, when you're doing the unicode changes, how about fixing dgl so spectating ttyrecs doesn't involve finding a screen clear and working from there :) 12:45:46 bigger uncompressed ones, certainly 12:45:47 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:45:55 Should be simple with your termrec libtty 12:45:58 greensnark: of course 12:46:25 there's a more pressing issue, too: currently you can't watch someone with a bigger terminal than yours 12:46:34 it breaks down pretty nastily 12:47:12 a pannable view would be easy to implement 12:48:52 Wait, there are people with bigger terms than you? :P 12:49:14 Heh, someone on cao with a 179x40 term 12:49:19 eew 12:49:31 Oh, and a 191x58 too 12:51:47 beh, that's crippled strip monitors for you 12:52:20 4x3 is too wide already, so what people do? Get them wider! 12:52:32 Hehe 12:55:33 labelling monitors with different aspect ratio with nothing but diagonal length should be banned. Clueless people see two monitors, both with same listed spec but one is not only cheaper but also advertised as better. Noticing it's a good deal smaller would require a modicum of math or common sense. 12:57:16 kilobyte: eh, imo monitors should be required to be labeled with diagonal length, maximum resolution (either total screen or per-unit-of-width) and a ratio. 12:59:27 greensnark: I see in melee_attack, we're storing things like can_do_unarmed, body armor penalties, to-hit penalties, etc. Shouldn't those just be fetched from the *attacker or *defender? 12:59:51 Cryp71c: They are fetched from the attacker/defender, just stored to save recalculation 13:00:21 Also: it is impossible to get 4x3 monitors these days, everything is widescreen 13:00:43 right...just seemed...odd to me. I guess one of those things that is bad in theory but has advantages in practice. 13:00:45 And it's bloody hard to get anything better than 1920x1080 at a reasonable price 13:01:23 greensnark: unless I"m on a huge, HUGE monitor, 1920x1080 is almost always a high enough resolution for me, otherwise things get hard to see (and I have young, reasonably good eyes, let alone for someone older with poorer sight) 13:01:59 I like my vertical resolution! 13:02:12 1920 is fine: 1080 sucks 13:02:22 greensnark: do you know what that attack_number is for? I find references to it, can see where its passed in under initialization of a melee_attack, but can't actually find anything using it. 13:02:45 I think attack_number is used to count off the attacks for things like hydras 13:03:00 Also it is used to select the current attack for monsters in general 13:03:07 Since monsters have four attacks 13:03:25 *up to 4 13:03:39 greensnark: shouldn't each head have its own attack, rather than depend on melee_attack to handle those special cases? 13:03:51 It probably should 13:04:12 sorear wanted to split melee_attack so you used one attack object per discrete attack 13:04:22 Whereas right now it's one attack per melee round 13:04:27 k, I didn't know if there would be a big performance hit for treating each of up to the 4 normal attacks as a separate instantiation of the attack class. 13:04:31 i.e. one attack object for all the attacks in a melee round 13:05:06 Instantiating objects, etc. is negligible overhead compared to the game logic in general 13:06:32 greensnark: "i.e. one attack object for all the attacks in a melee round" that's how it works right now, correct? (not how it should work when we're done) 13:07:01 !tell Napkin Do you have your CDO maintenance scripts in a nice little git repo I can rip off? :D 13:07:01 greensnark: OK, I'll let Napkin know. 13:07:24 !tell Napkin I want to upgrade dgl on cao and setup your scripts for 0.8 trunk 13:07:24 greensnark :) 13:07:24 greensnark: OK, I'll let Napkin know. 13:07:24 Napkin: You have 3 messages. Use !messages to read them. 13:07:29 Oh, you're here 13:07:33 !coffee Napkin 13:07:34 * Henzell hands Napkin a mug of caffè macchiato, brewed by the Serpent of Hell. 13:07:47 unfortunately not - since they are kinda spread all over the system already ;D 13:07:53 Cryp71c: Yeah, it'd be better to have one attack object per attack 13:07:58 thanks! :) 13:08:06 Napkin: Noooooo, you should version them! 13:08:07 what are you interested in? 13:08:26 Well, first I want to upgrade dgl, probably tomorrow 13:08:28 well, the "baking" script is in git 13:08:41 Then I'd like to set up CDO-style trunk builds with automagic savefile copying 13:08:56 but not the script called via sudo to install, savegame manipulation, etx 13:09:09 And I really don't want to roll my own, I'd prefer to use yours since you've debugged and tested them thoroughly :) 13:09:31 Napkin: Can you put them all in a repo and symlink them if you need them to live in different directories? 13:09:32 sure thing, but i will have to guide you through them 13:09:46 CDO scripts repo would be great 13:10:00 that won't help much, greensnark 13:10:14 they have hardcoded filesystem positions, etc 13:10:19 Oh 13:10:30 But that's just the paths to dgldir and stuff, right? 13:10:32 and need settings for sudo.. and, and, and 13:10:39 Oh right, the sudo thing 13:10:54 what would you like to do? 13:10:59 put them on cao? 13:12:02 then, the structure of the chroot is quite important 13:12:18 i could guide you through it though, of course 13:12:42 and create the repository - but that would mean a text-file with every file to explain where it belongs to and why ;) 13:13:04 it has.. become a MONSTER! 13:13:08 Hehe 13:13:15 But you should have version control! 13:13:29 still haven't started moving to the new server! now guess why ;D 13:13:32 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 13:13:38 dinner! o/ 13:14:18 Enjoy! 13:15:45 greensnark: an item_def pointer can access everything about a weapon, correct? Including its randart properties, whether its an unrand (and its entry number), etc. ? 13:16:21 Yes 13:18:23 excellent. Also, do monsters have shield / body armor EV penalties, or is that just the player? 13:20:20 Don't recall, check the code 13:20:37 It would make sense for them to have EV penalties 13:25:42 greensnark: they don't, it would seem...at least its not in monster::melee_evasion 13:26:10 Which seems...odd 13:26:26 Since I doubt heavy armor impedes the use of their weapons, either. 13:27:12 monsters are cheaters 13:27:25 orc wizards cast just fine in crystal plate mail, etc :P 13:28:27 MarvinPA: and thats probably not the worst thing, since monsters are typically weaker than players, but post-rewrite, monster should mirror player very closely, so both players and monsters should have those penalty methods, even if the monster's return 0, imo. 13:30:15 03dolorous * ra6aecdefb461 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/descript/ability.txt: Tweak wording and punctuation. 13:39:49 greensnark: presently, calculate_to_hit is an attack method, shouldn't it be an actor/attacker method (to-hit may be altered for a particular attack, but the base to-hit value should be retrievable from the attacker), correct? 13:40:02 I feel at times my perspective on the code is not actually the way it truely is, thus..my many questions. 13:41:33 You could go either way since to-hit is a function of both the attacker and the attack in question 13:42:12 I'd say keep it in the melee_attack 13:42:50 greensnark: I think I'll plan on it being a function of the attacker with the likelihood that I'll have an adjust_to_hit (or a calc_to_hit) in the attack which makes modifications as necessary to the to_hit values. 13:43:27 greensnark: having the base value in attacker (actor) allows for one other potential feature of the new system: calculating weapon effectiveness with various weapons without having to be in combat. 13:43:40 Whether we decide to implement that is irrelevant, its that I want the potential to be there. 13:43:43 You don't have to be in combat to create a melee_attack instance 13:44:21 greensnark: no, but if we're having to in order to fetch and display some information, we've likely got a wierd (if not bad) implementation. 13:44:56 You're displaying stats on melee attacks; it doesn't seem particularly onerous to require that you create instances of melee_attack when doing so 13:46:02 I suppose so, that is reasoanble I guess, I just percieve to_hit to be a function dependent on the attacker (its not that to_hit varies widely from one attack to another with the same weapon [if you remove the random aspect, which we inject to provide combat variance]). 13:46:54 So if we concede that physics are constant in the accuracy of an individual swinging a particular object, then the chance of them hitting another object of fixed evasional capacity is also (fairly) fixed. 13:47:03 greensnark: you'll need all scripts (not binaries) from /var/lib/dgamelaunch/{bin,sbin}, the script and config from ~crawl/source/crawl-git/, the scripts from ~crawl/bin, the sqlite dbs from /var/lib/dgamelaunch/*.db3 and the sudo entries 13:47:06 Which means its not a function of a given attack, but a function of the attacker. 13:47:51 i may be able to put that in a repository 13:48:20 Napkin: Thanks! 13:48:37 but honestly, writing the docs would be hell of a job 13:49:00 Napkin: I'm not worried about docs, I'll just ask you questions if I run into issues :) 13:49:02 will create that repository tomorrow at work though ;) 13:49:16 I mainly want a repo because doing any kind of nontrivial code without source control == scary 13:49:55 Cryp71c: I imagine to-hit is a function of at least attacker + attack + weapon, if any + armour + shield 13:50:24 You could put that in actor if you want to. The thing with object modeling is that there are many ways to do the same thing 13:50:50 So do what you think is right... if it doesn't work out well, you can always go back and change it 13:51:20 It's not possible to get a good design until you have a good feel for the code you'll need to write 13:51:46 So go with a design that feels reasonable, and be prepared to come back later when you encounter complexiy on the ground 13:51:58 Trying to set up a perfect design up front is just a waste of time 13:52:02 problem is, that the scripts in ~crawl/source/crawl-git/ are already in their the repository of crawl 13:52:19 Napkin: Those are build scripts for Crawl, right? 13:52:23 yes 13:52:25 Do they have to be in the crawl repo at all? 13:52:37 greensnark: well, building the attack class atm. 13:52:37 Well, for now, it's fine that they are :) 13:52:38 So we'll see 13:52:41 now - yes 13:52:53 didn't want an additional subfolder when i started 13:53:01 But I think being in the crawl repo also forces you to do the merge base and other stuff, right 13:53:19 and, their state is highly volatile, depending on the crawl repository 13:53:35 Ok, one sec, my dog is howling at the moon and it's past midnight, I need to haul her into the house 13:53:40 different for 0.7, for 0.6 and changes for trunk quite often ;) 13:53:49 hehe 13:54:19 *depending on the crawl branch 13:55:03 Ah, right 13:56:53 well, we'll manage somehow 13:57:02 also, there is an permission issue 13:57:10 root, dgl, crawl 13:57:20 bhaak: yes, young people don't know who beatles are 13:57:21 :( 13:57:57 also isn't dpeg like 30 max 13:58:24 beep - wrong 13:58:53 dpeg is as old as the hills 13:59:04 the extremely new hills 13:59:10 dpeg has always been. 13:59:51 No words were laid on stream or stone, when dpeg woke and walked alone. 14:00:14 03MarvinPA * r289229c3ac78 10/crawl-ref/source/spl-damage.cc: Don't allow cancelling out of chain lightning with ally prompts 14:03:10 greensnark: brand-application should be the same regardless of ranged, melee, or magic attacks, should they not? (If they differ, they should have their own brand) 14:05:04 There's no common code currently, and at least for magic it doesn't sound like there'll ever be 14:05:21 You could argue for similar code for melee/ranged brands, but it's a bit of a stretch even so 14:06:06 -!- monqy has joined ##crawl-dev 14:06:29 In general: worry about melee attacks for now 14:09:27 TGWi: i don't dpeg's exact age but after meeting him in person and if he's really 30 max then he didn't age well :-) 14:09:46 :P 14:10:36 !tell dpeg < bhaak> TGWi: i don't dpeg's exact age but after meeting him in person and if he's really 30 max then he didn't age well :-) 14:10:37 greensnark: OK, I'll let dpeg know. 14:11:27 dpeg has the heart of a child 14:11:38 I don't know where he keeps it, though. He tells me it isn't in a jar on his desk. 14:14:00 well, just checked again and jpeg claimed 27 on tavern 14:14:08 I'm revising my estimate to "like 40 max" 14:14:32 What, jpeg claimed dpeg is 27? 14:14:35 upon reflection that might have been a 27 joke 14:14:38 jpeg claimed to be 27 14:15:05 I also don't really know the beatles but my parents do 14:15:16 although they really were rollings stones fans 14:15:30 to me it's just old people making noise 14:15:42 say that to your parents 14:15:44 I like "Paint it Black"! 14:15:56 And if that makes me old, fuck yeah, it's good to be old sometimes 14:16:10 I did and they just shook their heads :) 14:17:14 i remember thinking when we recreated my father's music collection on CD that most of the stuff he listened to in his teens was thankfully forgotten nowadays 14:17:38 Most of the stuff teenagers listen to nowadays would be best forgotten already 14:17:52 But I'm told dpeg is a Lady Gaga fan, so old age doesn't always bring wisdom :P 14:18:39 do you often have conversations with dpeg about lady gaga? 14:18:48 Every day. 14:18:50 old age doesn't automatically implies taste :) 14:18:52 me too 14:18:53 We rarely mention anything else 14:19:01 so, you are fans, too? 14:19:07 Hehe 14:19:19 TGWi is just angling to get another q unique in Crawl 14:19:27 lady qaga 14:19:30 Lady Quagga, presumably 14:19:33 hehehe 14:24:24 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 14:24:51 i like kesha, so i'm hipper than you are! 14:26:38 !tell kilobyte Re: speed brand nerf -- you've said +60% a few times as a value for speed brand now, but I wonder if you realize that that's only the case for a few weapons... speed brand always rounds up when it halves delay, so it is really only +33% on short blades and +40% on two-handers... and that's against 0 AC stuff 14:26:40 Maximum message length is 300 characters. Eschew verbosity, Gladys! 14:26:54 can you imagine a situation in which - during an attack - either the attacker/defender is BOTH not visible AND not invisible? 14:27:21 Yeah, monsters fighting out of LOS 14:27:27 *out of player LOS 14:27:44 Assuming you're talking about visibility wrt playermessaging 14:28:14 !learn add bhaak Likes kesha 14:28:15 bhaak[5/5]: Likes kesha 14:28:20 :D 14:28:39 !tell kilobyte about the speed nerf: you've said +60% a few times as a value for speed brand now, but that's only rarely the case... speed brand always rounds up when it halves delay, so it is only +33% on sbl and +40% on two-handers... and that's against 0 AC 14:28:39 elliptic: OK, I'll let kilobyte know. 14:28:54 dpeg: evening! 14:29:04 we were just talking about your lady gaga addiction 14:29:08 You're just saying that to get him to check his messages 14:29:36 dpeg: There are proposals for a Lady Quagga unique 14:29:48 15:26 <+Cryp71c> can you imagine a situation in which - during an attack - either the attacker/defender is BOTH not visible AND not invisible? 14:29:52 blindness 14:30:11 attacker is not invisible, but also not visible to the defender 14:30:13 !learn del bhaak[5] 14:30:13 Deleted bhaak[5/5]: Likes kesha 14:30:20 !learn add bhaak Likes ke$ha 14:30:20 bhaak[5/5]: Likes ke$ha 14:30:25 Hahahaha 14:30:47 an important distinction to make 14:30:57 dpeg: rawr 14:31:10 !tell kilobyte And the vast majority of speed brand weapons that generate are short blades, so the speed brand nerf mainly is just a short blade nerf... and they don't need it. I'm all in favor of doing something about speed brand, but the change you made doesn't look right on its own 14:31:10 elliptic: OK, I'll let kilobyte know. 14:34:15 elliptic: i mentioned it earlier and kilobyte said to revert or reduce the change if it's excessive, i imagine it's probably best not to do loads of untested balance changes if 0.8 is hopefully close 14:34:33 yeah 14:34:38 did you have a suggestion to nerf speed but so it'd still be useful on sbl? 14:34:47 a simpler change would be to remove speed on non-sbl non-staves 14:34:50 i forget what the other ideas were, other than just reducing the speed increase 14:34:59 yeah, maybe so 14:34:59 1.5* and div_rand_round 14:35:02 imo 14:35:22 leave it as it is on sbl and staves, remove it as a possibility for hell knight weapons and randarts that aren't sbl or staves 14:35:35 why not just leave it on randarts 14:35:38 would address some problems without causing any balance issues 14:35:39 it's okay if they're super powerful 14:35:46 eronarn: well, they show up a lot with trog gifts currently 14:35:52 also yeah, randarts being good isn't really a problem imo 14:35:56 elliptic: change the weighting, then 14:36:06 unless you mean they show up a lot just by virtue of trog giving a lot of gifts 14:36:11 one of kilobyte's worries was that playing trog is all about waiting to be gifted a speed weapon 14:36:23 changing trog gift code or whatever would be a possibility instead, yeah 14:36:26 weighing speed against probably-crappy base type and inability to enchant is interesting 14:36:28 TGWi: or don't bother with rounding at all, leave delay unchanged, and give double-attacks 14:36:30 but regardless hell knights shouldn't have them 14:36:33 speed nerf isn't urgent imo 14:36:34 definitely a good idea to remove it as a hell knight thing, yeah 14:36:36 (this is an interface improvement) 14:36:45 monqy: div_rand_round should be used anyway 14:36:56 for delay in general right 14:37:07 yes 14:37:18 also, always forever 14:37:37 As it relates to speed, I think double-attacks is a good idea, since it prevents the character from attacking once, then taking another action before the monster attacks (such as quaffing a potion) essentially risk-free. 14:37:59 Or dance-attacking, if that's still possible. 14:38:01 greensnark: there is no shortage of insane proposals 14:38:01 dpeg: You have 4 messages. Use !messages to read them. 14:38:36 !messages 14:38:36 (1/4) Eronarn said (3d 44m 35s ago): https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:species:lava_orc 14:38:38 !messages 14:38:38 (1/3) Cryp71c said (3d 14m 42s ago): Rawr: https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:fight_rewrite 14:38:40 !messages 14:38:40 (1/2) dpeg said (20h 8m 39s ago): Look at Dorokhloe at some time (loot,holy set). 14:38:42 !messages 14:38:43 (1/1) greensnark said (28m 7s ago): < bhaak> TGWi: i don't dpeg's exact age but after meeting him in person and if he's really 30 max then he didn't age well :-) 14:38:50 :) 14:39:21 Thank Trog I have better age estimators in my neighbourhood. 14:39:50 !tell dpeg Look at Dorokhloe. 14:39:50 dpeg: OK, I'll let dpeg know. 14:42:21 !tell kilobyte A suggestion for what to do about speed brand for the moment with 0.8 so close: remove it from hell knights and uniques, maybe remove it from randarts that aren't sbl/staves as well (though that's really only a problem with trog gifts), leave the mechanics of speed brand the same for now 14:42:21 elliptic: OK, I'll let kilobyte know. 14:45:22 It's fun when Agnes gets a lajatang of speed! 14:46:41 kilobyte: elliptic's proposal looks reasonable for 0.8. We don't want to cull the brand without thorough discussion, and the proposal keeps speed interesting for stabbers/short blades while nerfing the abusers. 14:46:41 dpeg: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 14:47:33 The 0.8 wiki page talks about a ranged combat balance item: is that done, or one of the postponed items? 14:48:09 good question, I don't know 14:49:23 Ok, I'll move the ranged-combat-balance item to the postponed list 14:49:49 thank you 14:50:46 i took a look at the blowgun/throwing stuff a while ago since that was on the plan too, but i wasn't really sure where to start in terms of tweaking the formulae 14:51:35 Needles are a separate issue in themselves 14:52:31 yeah 14:53:07 So holy monsters are currently used only in zigs, right? 14:53:11 Apart from their test vaults 14:53:15 not even there 14:53:38 it's okay... 0.8 w/o holies means we have more content for 0.9, no problem 14:54:24 some of the holies show up in zotdef i think but nowhere else 14:55:37 If they're going to be zig only they're probably ok for inclusion, I guess 14:55:41 Well, zig+zotdef 14:56:06 Uileat (L4 OgBe) ERROR in 'fixedvector.h' at line 72: range check error (-1 / 52) (D:3) 14:57:02 Ok, anybody working on stuff for 0.8 that isn't on https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:planning:0.8_features should totally add it to that page now 14:57:51 And anybody working on any items on that list, please update that item's status 14:58:15 This "new unarmed aux special damage" would be bleeding from claws and the like? 14:58:33 yeah 14:58:49 it feels like it's been in for forever, maybe it was added just after 0.7 though? 14:59:15 Yeah, rob's comment on it is dated 09-2010 14:59:45 i remember comments on how weird it was that claws can make enemies bleed but not huge axes or swords, at least :P 15:00:07 IV claws 15:00:49 huh, what's "monster vs player speed synchronisation"? 15:01:09 oh, move delay and things like that? 15:01:40 I'm not sure 15:01:57 Do you have to format commit messages to 80 col or will that happen automagically? 15:02:13 Cryp71c: Wrap them in your editor. 15:02:20 I tend to use long first lines for CIA though :P 15:02:34 "CIA made me do it" 15:02:47 greensnark: yeah player bleed effects have been in for several months, I never implemented weapon-bleeding though, because RL beckoned. 15:03:03 (or monster vs player bleeding) 15:03:37 Ok, so probably disable-worthy for 0.8 15:03:49 Does it hurt Fe not to have bleeding claw attacks 15:03:56 (not that it matters, just curious) 15:04:05 antaeus is bleed-able! 15:04:42 probably not, bleeding does something like 3% of maxhp damage 15:04:51 3% of current hp 15:05:14 9% or some such for powerbleeding 15:05:17 oh, tukima's ball isn't on there 15:05:26 that should probably be looked at or removed as a player spell or something 15:05:39 Oh, that's the multiple weapon tukima thing, right 15:06:14 Ok, if claw damage is negligible I'm totally moving re-evaluation of that to the postponed list 15:06:27 sounds good 15:06:29 greensnark: its negliglbe, FE aren't unbalanced by lacking bleed. 15:07:09 greensnark: yes, go ahead 15:07:36 Is there anyway to get a graphical (or pseudo-graphical) display of the current state of my commit tree for a particular branch? I want to make sure that my rebasing hasn't fouled anything up. 15:07:39 MarvinPA: see also darkness 15:07:43 ah yeah 15:08:15 summon hydra/dragon aren't on there either, those seem like they're fine though 15:09:39 yeah 15:09:41 also leda's 15:09:43 can you fire conjurations out of LOS with darkness? 15:11:24 MarvinPA: I don't think so, IIRC I was told a long while back that the targeting fixes applied by someone prevented that. 15:11:43 ah yeah 15:12:56 what about stuff like shatter, clouds, summons... 15:12:58 If I'm on my branch (with no unstaged changes), and "git rebase origin/master" it should rewind my branch's changes, update to master/HEAD, then replay my commits on top of HEAD, correct? 15:13:12 (presuming there are no collisions in the code) 15:13:22 bah, there must be a better way of the wiki handling multiple people editing at once than locking the page :( 15:13:40 MarvinPA: new product: SVNWiki with automerge! 15:13:47 For those pages you really want to update simultaneously. 15:13:49 heh 15:14:09 Anyone on my git question? 15:14:30 Its been a while since I've worked with it to any significant degree. 15:14:40 Would love to not foul up my branch's commit tree. 15:14:58 i'm no expert but i think that's right, yeah 15:15:21 Cryp71c: Yes 15:15:34 Cryp71c: But if you're publishing your branch on gitorious, do not rebase it 15:15:51 i.e. rebasing is fine for branches that are purely local 15:15:51 greensnark: :( grrr, I have to undo that rebase. 15:16:14 Once you start publishing your changes, you don't want to rebase commits unless they're local 15:16:57 Doesn't rebasing stuff now help when rebasing my branch into master later down the road? 15:17:09 Or is the clutter in the commit history not worth it? 15:17:39 Rebasing is good to keep history free of merge commits 15:18:20 But as I said: once you've pushed a commit on a branch, if you suddenly rebase and push a new set of commits, anybody who's using that branch will get a rude surprise when they try to pull 15:18:58 Where you can use rebase is: you're working on master, you create a few new commits, then rebase onto origin/master: only your new commits are rebased, which is fine 15:19:35 Where you don't want to use rebase: you're working on branch foo, create commits, push branch foo to gitorious, work some more, create more commits on branch foo, then *rebasing onto origin/master is bad news* 15:19:53 You can rebase your local commits on foo onto origin/foo just fine though 15:20:16 16:13 <+MarvinPA> bah, there must be a better way of the wiki handling multiple people editing at once than locking the page :( 15:20:20 google wave code was opensourced 15:20:21 get to it 15:20:33 Is it still locked? :) 15:21:02 Yeah, the locked pages thing is annoying 15:21:44 Etherpad had nice collaborative editing that was also more lightweight than Wave 15:26:28 03Cryp71c 07unified_combat_control * r20107310e512 10/crawl-ref/source/ (attack.cc attack.h fight.cc): Add attack class framework 15:26:38 Rar! It has begun. 15:27:23 !coffee Cryp71c 15:27:25 * Henzell hands Cryp71c a cup of caffè macchiato, brewed by Snorg. 15:27:50 The biggest fear I have is getting this starting stuff implemented, setting melee_attack to inherit from attack, and everything compiles, but nothing works :P 15:28:03 hehe 15:29:13 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 15:29:27 -!- edlothiol has quit [Client Quit] 15:29:42 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 15:43:37 -!- ZChris13 has joined ##crawl-dev 15:45:16 Strange behaviour with felids on background selection menu (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3629) by flowsnake 15:45:36 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 15:47:18 -!- galehar_ has joined ##crawl-dev 15:48:45 Should constants pertaining to a .cc file be declared at the top of that .cc file (such as the case with fight.cc) or in the .h file (as is the case in various other circumstances) ? 15:50:51 at least with functions, the way I've seen crawl do it is declare in the header if other .cc files will want to use them, and keep then in the .cc file otherwise 15:51:09 not sure how it handles constants though 15:51:41 -!- varmin has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:51:47 -!- varmin has joined ##crawl-dev 15:55:05 -!- casmith789 has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:55:46 -!- casmith789 has joined ##crawl-dev 15:57:38 -!- MarvinPA_ has joined ##crawl-dev 16:00:41 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:02:09 Whew, nearly have the basics setup for having melee_attack inherit from the base attack class. 16:02:41 Cryp71c: no formal rules. If the constant (or define) is used throughout the file, I would declare it in the header. If it's used just for a couple of function, I would declare in the .cc, before the functions. 16:09:44 -!- syllogism has quit [] 16:09:49 -!- ZChris13_ has joined ##crawl-dev 16:13:01 k I'm out, I"ll be back tonight....or tomorrow. 16:13:02 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:14:11 -!- ZChris13 has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:14:13 -!- MarvinPA_ is now known as MarvinPA 16:14:14 -!- ZChris13_ is now known as ZChris13 16:21:12 -!- MakMorn has joined ##crawl-dev 16:23:12 03Cryp71c 07unified_combat_control * r36dc4a416cb0 10/crawl-ref/source/ (attack.cc attack.h): Additional development of attack.cc, reording of class functions in attack.h 16:38:42 go Cryp71c! 16:52:55 And here comes the new Ashenzari. 16:54:16 03galehar * r095afaccfeca 10/crawl-ref/source/ (9 files): Ashenzari also warns about monsters' wands. 16:54:24 does the skill boosting mess with acquirement 16:54:27 03galehar * r86f7879f2428 10/crawl-ref/source/ (godpassive.cc godpassive.h player.cc): New ash passive ability: boost low skills when not wearing uncursed items. 16:54:28 03galehar * r8cad4c36862d 10/crawl-ref/source/player.cc: Remove Ashenzari XP bonus. 16:54:29 03galehar * rf32d692534f7 10/crawl-ref/source/ (abl-show.cc skills2.cc): Nerf Ashenzari transfer knowledge. 16:54:29 03galehar * r6fc4cd90c732 10/crawl-ref/source/godconduct.cc: Halves Ashenzari piety gain. 16:56:17 monqy: no. It works like heroism. 16:58:22 so can you get your low skills boosted just by taking off uncursed items? 16:58:43 yes 16:58:48 run around naked, it works 16:58:51 hm 16:59:21 -!- ZChris13 has quit [Quit: Reconnecting…] 16:59:25 seems weird not to use the same mechanic as boundedness 16:59:39 dpeg's design ;) 17:00:03 -!- ZChris13 has joined ##crawl-dev 17:00:31 Before anyone asks, I'll fix the skill menu tomorrow (you can't see you base level). 17:02:45 the boost to 6 sounds very useful for casters wanting to generalise, anyway 17:03:12 sounds good for gaining new weapon skills too 17:03:26 it's kind of like oka heroism but for all skills and only right at the start and permanent 17:03:42 could be a little annoying for those who don't want to curse their weapon 17:03:57 -!- ZChris13 has quit [Client Quit] 17:04:11 -!- ZChris13 has joined ##crawl-dev 17:05:14 -!- evilmike has joined ##crawl-dev 17:06:16 They'll have to make do with 5. 17:06:23 MarvinPA: yes, current Ash is designed to be played fully bounded I guess. We agreed with dpeg to go with that for 0.8, even if it has drawbacks and to try to address it in the next version. 17:06:26 -!- ZChris13 has quit [Client Quit] 17:06:32 -!- ZChris13 has joined ##crawl-dev 17:06:33 Or is it none at all? 17:06:42 -!- ZChris13 has quit [Client Quit] 17:06:48 -!- ZChris13 has joined ##crawl-dev 17:06:57 ekiM: you'll have to unwield to get the bonus. 17:07:59 I guess animate skeleton will be popular :) 17:08:40 and you don't need to invest in any skill to cast it. 17:09:12 Ahh, but staff of channeling is so cool. qq 17:10:04 well, I guess that's the point of the conduct too. 17:10:16 Yep! 17:10:18 I use animate skeleton on ashenzari characters 17:10:54 I think it hurts hybrids the most, which is interesting. Force you to choose your side. 17:10:55 and I got the idea from other people. So it seems to be popular already 17:11:16 once you get enough piety you can drop the weapon boundedness anyway 17:11:24 was what I always found at least 17:11:25 keep it for the xp boost, I say 17:11:32 -!- ZChris13 has quit [Client Quit] 17:11:37 you get +12.5% just for having a weapon bound 17:11:42 he could gift you the book of cantrips :) 17:11:50 presumably that's why piety gain was reduced and the xp boost removed :P 17:12:18 don't really get why transfer knowledge was made worse 17:12:38 it's just more expensive. 17:13:12 but why? 17:13:32 so that the choice of what to reskill is more crucial. 17:14:06 anyway, I have to sleep 17:14:12 bye 17:14:47 night 17:14:48 I never use transfer knowledge before the endgame anyway, and abyss is infinite piety... 17:15:12 not sure if anyone does anything but get more fighting early/mid 17:15:35 i used it early to get a whole bunch of evoc for staff of earth this game 17:15:42 I had a really good HEBe 17:15:50 that I dropped trog to go with ash 17:15:50 other than that though yeah, just moving junk skills into fighting 17:15:54 and pumped spellcasting 17:16:08 so that by zot he was a caster with wicked fighting skills 17:16:16 splatted him in pan due to stupid though 17:16:25 -!- galehar_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:16:56 back 17:16:58 I've done that a couple times, I find it pretty effective (dropping trog is way too easy) 17:17:26 was this before the change to giants wading in water 17:17:31 MarvinPA: wanna talk about Ash skill boost? I can explain. 17:17:57 sure, i'm not against how it was implemented or anything, it just struck me as a little odd :P 17:18:42 thinking about it, it's probably quite a useful/powerful effect so having a reasonably tough requirement for it seems good 17:19:39 MarvinPA: We urgently needed something **good** to have players at least think about cursing more than necessary for piety purposes. 17:19:48 -!- |eith| has joined ##crawl-dev 17:20:52 In another stroke of brilliance (insert irony as desired) it occurred to me that having a binary reward could be good -- i.e. not somerthing like boundedness, which somehow continuously increases with cursed gear. 17:21:09 I feel that in this way there are more interesting choices for the player to make. 17:21:25 MarvinPA: Do you also wonder about the effect itself? 17:21:33 !tell galehar You are my hero! 17:21:34 dpeg: OK, I'll let galehar know. 17:21:58 hm, i vaguely followed the discussions where it was proposed but i can't remember the exact reasoning behind it 17:22:35 -!- eith has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:22:50 MarvinPA: if we reward all skills (and perhaps let players choose them), players are naturally led to boost a few, most probably really high ones. 17:22:59 * greensnark proposes "bondage" as a term to replace "boundedness" 17:23:03 This is not only against the spirit, it's also less interesting gameplay-wise. 17:23:03 -!- ais523 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:23:06 greensnark: +1 17:23:14 I knew you'd like it :P 17:23:23 You were bound to 17:23:28 "You are fully covered in bondage and rely on Ashenzari to move across the room." 17:23:40 yeah, boosting low skills seems good gameplay-wise and still a strong effect 17:23:44 dpeg ****** - bound, tied and gagged 17:23:45 and nice and passive, too :) 17:23:55 dpeg: players are naturally led to boost many, not high skills. Crawl doesn't reward few high skills as much as many low skills. 17:24:08 anyway i have an ash character in progress so i'll have a play with it soon, i imagine 17:24:42 I better clear some hells before CDO updates. :F 17:24:51 MarvinPA: exactly, wanted to keep going when greensnark interrupted. One bit I had in mind aboud Ashenzari was tactical inflexibility coupled with broad strategical appeal. Reskilling is one of them (more below), but the skill boost is too: it won't do you much good very late, but it will be noticeable in between. 17:24:56 @whereis ekiM 17:24:56 ekiM the Sorcerer (L27 MuWz), a worshipper of Ashenzari, saved in Hell on 2011-03-21 after 301536 turns. 17:25:03 Aha, another disciple of bondage 17:25:22 What else. 17:25:39 Bonded Farmer 17:25:50 I need an adjective form 17:25:50 -!- Fangorn_ has joined ##crawl-dev 17:25:56 Apart from "bound" 17:25:58 Serf? :p 17:26:09 casmith789: we agree they'd rather boost a middling weapon skill (gaining the first six levels is cheap) or a middling/high magic skill? (Completely discarding Fighting and Spellcasting, of course.) 17:26:15 Indentured. 17:26:50 I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing. Are we talking about gaining exp or gaining levels? 17:26:51 !lm ekiM ash muwz s=rune 17:27:12 casmith789: gaining a boost to skill levels. 17:27:21 6 milestones for ekiM (ash muwz): 1x decaying, 1x icy, 1x slimy, 1x barnacled, 1x abyssal, 1x silver 17:27:49 oh, then naturally you'd want it on higher skills because it takes more exp (well if the skills are not both over 14) 17:27:52 !lm ekiM ash muwz s=rune x=max(turn) 17:28:01 casmith789: okay, so we agree :) 17:28:32 6 milestones for ekiM (ash muwz): 1x icy [285052], 1x abyssal [266303], 1x slimy [262064], 1x silver [229830], 1x barnacled [144460], 1x decaying [89985] 17:28:32 highlights two problems with the current system, but I don't like how he is blamed for something that's faulty somewhere else: (a) Not all skills are equal. In particular, some skills are not worth being trained to the maximum -- that should be taken care of anyway (slowly, skill by skill); (b) there is too much xp in the game. I don't have a ready solution for (b), but I hope we'll get ideas over time. 17:28:53 Jordan7hm: Hi! Great to see you here. 17:29:02 greensnark: Testing autochannel probably ate up a lot of turns in there somewhere. :P 17:29:13 there is too much exp in the game? hmm. Do you think so? 17:29:20 Absolutely. 17:29:21 Also resting for 20000 turns or so to cure hell stat drain! 17:29:43 hey dpeg 17:29:50 If we cut all the optional branches it might actually be okay, especially with the recent cuts in levels. 17:30:02 But the additional branches destroy all semblance of balance. 17:30:19 Jordan7hm: Great vaults, thank you very much. I like your portal vault concept, too. 17:30:46 Jordan7hm: Something like an Arena was briefly speculated about on the portal vaults wiki page, did you see it? 17:32:09 yeah, the one that involved betting? 17:32:14 Jordan7hm: I think so, yes. 17:32:20 when I skip optional stuff (elf, most of zot, sometimes crypt) I usually wind up ascending at around level 23 or 24, I actually find it hard to reach 27 sometimes (probably a good thing) 17:33:01 evilmike: yes. I think plain 3-runers (with Elf, without Slime) should only make it to XL 27 on Zot:5, if at all (i.e. Exp 100 species). This seems to work out mostly. 17:33:08 but doing tomb, or clearing zot, or spending a while in pan, or doing a zig can boost xp to insane levels. A regular 3 rune game seems to have enough xp though 17:33:29 I guess I skip zot which is where most of the exp is 17:33:32 Jordan7hm: I think one of my ideas (could easily been of someone else) was that there are two factions and you join one. Could be more interesting, at least sometimes. 17:33:36 so I lose quite a few levels there 17:33:45 doing tomb early can let you reach level 27 without even having cleared anything deeper than the entrance to vaults 17:34:02 I guess we need to nerf everything. 17:34:13 sounds like a change for .9 17:34:23 * dpeg hands out nerf hammers to everyone. 17:34:26 buff monsters, nerf players 17:34:31 let me run megabat in peace :( 17:34:45 casmith789: megabat? 17:34:54 !streak megabat 17:34:55 megabat has 8 consecutive wins (TrFi, MDBe, SpEn, DDNe, MiGl, MfIE, DGCj, SEEE), and can keep going! 17:34:56 Just change branches so the entrance seals the moment you enter the branch until you get the rune 17:35:05 my alt 100% account 17:35:12 While we have some devs in here plus Eronarn: could someone look into Eronarn's trampling patch? 17:35:37 Wasn't that a trampling megapatch 17:35:47 I'll take a look sometime tomorrow/day after 17:35:47 it didn't change that much 17:35:49 casmith789: you know that the existence of streakers is used to prove that the game is too soft? :) 17:35:55 Only partially joking, actually. 17:35:56 yeah I think the two faction idea could have a place - in terms of theme within the general concept, it would fit well with Oka in particular 17:36:02 it mostly just shifts some stuff around, and passes some stuff into hurt() 17:36:04 greensnark: cool, many thanks. 17:36:07 (this is one of the things hard to do in the current system) 17:36:24 If I were doing what elliptic was, I wouldn't be on 100% 17:36:30 (playing random combos) 17:36:32 the 'shove stuff to the side' change is not in, but is trivial to code (just means you need to choose a different location to push them to) - was waiting on feedback as to whether we want it 17:36:36 Do we have a plan for the needle brands thing on the 0.8 page, or is that another postponee 17:36:43 Jordan7hm: there could also be the inevitable good (or just normal) vs evil battle. Followers of good gods have no choice then, of course. 17:36:59 I don't like that needles can affect things like golems, but I'm also woefully out of touch with the state of affairs 17:37:12 greensnark: i think they can't affect totally nonliving any more 17:37:15 but still demons and stuff 17:37:20 they can 17:37:25 you can paralyse orbs of fire :( 17:37:28 oh, okay 17:37:35 Yeah, that's just weird 17:37:49 you can needlestab everything 17:37:50 casmith789: oh, I believe the game is too hard for long streaks with random viable combos. Thank god, otherwise we'd be screwing up quite badly. 17:37:50 i'm not keen on it either but i never used ranged combat/needles so i can't comment on the balance and such really 17:38:08 dpeg: take out the word viable, and elliptic is on ~75% 17:38:24 I propose to make that 0.9 stuff. Needles can have a good place in the game, but we need more thought and discussion on the matter. 17:38:31 !streak hyperelliptic 17:38:32 !gamesby hyperelliptic 17:38:32 hyperelliptic has 6 consecutive wins (DrFE, SEPr, MuHu, HuWz, KeIE, DEEn) and has won their last 2 games (DGNe, MfAM). 17:38:33 hyperelliptic has played 29 games, between 20110128 and 20110317, won 21 (72.4%), high score 2224117, total score 31711581, total turns 1725480, total time 150:13:35. 17:38:37 Are needles abused so much that we need a quick stop for 0.8? 17:38:40 can we just use rPois for it? +++ = totally immune to needles, ++ = very resistant, + = somewhat resistant 17:38:41 No 17:38:42 dpeg: No 17:38:49 hardly anyone actually uses needles 17:38:51 Hardly anyone uses them that I can see 17:38:51 you need throwing 27 for them to be useful really 17:38:52 they're not abused very often, it's just amusing when they are :P 17:39:03 some people go for 27 throwing and try to needle stab the hell/pan bosses, but that can end badly 17:39:09 you have basically no chance of paralysing orbs of fire without decent throwing 17:39:19 Okay, let's wait with the needles. No need for another front. 17:39:23 Let's postpone needles 17:39:28 Why is paralysing orbs of fire with 27 Throwing an issue? 17:39:32 * greensnark brings out the postpone hammer. 17:39:34 due: Hi! 17:39:44 yeah, I think throwing should have a reason for existing 17:40:08 casmith789: sure, and it will be possible to do it right. Just needs thought and talk. 17:40:14 It's just that you don't expect needles to work on nonliving things 17:40:32 i don't see an orb of fire as having any weak points 17:40:32 If needles have a note saying they're magical and affect everything I'd stop worrying 17:40:51 or anything other than fire, fire, and more fire 17:40:54 That's a change we cna make then. 17:40:59 greensnark: your solution for branches was not serious, I think, but I've wondered along these lines. 17:40:59 But the default mental model of needles poisoning things with circulatory systems doesn't quite mesh with golems and orbs of fire 17:41:21 dpeg: Actually, a large reason why the midgame is so easy/tedious is because of branch skimming 17:41:32 greensnark: I absolutely agree. 17:41:33 Sure -- but I don't think that's a reason to disallow the effect, just a reason to change the flavour/effect to allow it. 17:41:34 People do Snake:1-4, go elsewhere, etc. 17:41:42 if branches locked you in, I would just postpone doing them until I was sure I could steamroll everything without any worries 17:41:48 ie not enter snake until like level 20 17:41:50 The pendulum is boring, and the food clock way too weak to hepl. 17:42:02 Otherwise needles are totally useless except for certain points in the game and so nobody will use them and we may as well delete them. 17:42:03 evilmike: Sure, but that forces you to go do more dangerous levels 17:42:08 oh right, yes it just doesn't make sense going into an area if you're way underleveled 17:42:10 evilmike: it would lead to more tough decisions than now, I am sure. 17:42:15 one possible solution would be that branch ends get harder the longer you wait before doing them 17:42:32 Eronarn: longer? how? turncount? 17:42:38 Eronarn: not really possible 17:42:41 Eronarn: possibly use the time between "enter branch" and "now". 17:42:43 If you postpone Snake until you're level 20, that's fine: you lose the items and xp from Snake:1-4 until then 17:42:59 due: howso? 17:43:12 if it's based off turncount then autoexplore will be junk 17:43:17 Eronarn: Where do you define the point that someone decides to start doing the level? 17:43:18 Rationale: by entering [branch] you've alerted everyone that trouble is around. Etc. 17:43:25 dpeg: issue with enter branch is that you can get penalized unncessarily if you have, say, a unique camping on a level 17:43:26 When they dip into Snake:5? 17:43:27 also, there's a lot of variability in branch end vaults 17:43:38 swamp particularly 17:43:48 That's also fine 17:43:49 variability in difficulty, I meant to say 17:43:56 The midgame is too damn easy 17:44:03 Snake/Swamp in particular :P 17:44:08 greensnark: We are trying to improve by making it shorter. 17:44:16 Shoals is good. 17:44:23 Yes, but as long as branch skimming is trivial and a no-brainer, people will do it 17:44:28 due: possibly starting from when you find the level the branch is on, or something 17:44:28 greensnark: of course. 17:44:29 Make Snake and Swamp good and D:10-20 more interesting. 17:44:35 This is really a pretty fundamental midgame flaw 17:44:37 actually shoals is the only one I don't branch skim 17:44:38 absolute is not good; when you enter the branch is also not good 17:44:49 oh swamp too but it's boring 17:45:05 snake is the only midgame branch i do some of early, shoals is hard and swamp is tedious :P 17:45:06 The game's a lot more fun when you do the branch to the end right when you find it for Snake/Swamp/Shoals, but there's no incentive to the player to make them do that 17:45:19 Any serious turncount clock is going to penalize people not playing in boring but optimal speed-wise ways. :\ 17:45:21 I have confidence everything will turn out well, simply because we're aware of the problem. 17:45:44 ekiM: it doesn't have to be a linear turncount clock 17:45:45 Okay, so what about greensnark's proposal then? No clocks, just a simple rule. 17:45:51 greensnark: I'd argue that it's more fun 17:45:53 dpeg: Hey, my solution isn't serious :P 17:45:57 if it were more fun people would do it that way 17:45:58 look at the OOD timer, for example - you don't have to 'play fast' to get around it 17:46:03 locking people in? that sounds bad. 17:46:06 yet it does successfully discourage scumming 17:46:10 Jordan7hm: No, people tend to do what they think is safe 17:46:26 have difficulty start where it's at now; stay there for, say, 10k turns 17:46:26 because dying isn't fun if you don't feel the situation was fair 17:46:29 Players will grind if they think it benefits them 17:46:31 after you find the branch, or whatever 17:46:39 Jordan7hm: most people hate Hive (moreso with four levels) but still do it diligently and patiently :) 17:46:56 I like hive :( 17:46:57 people skip labs 17:46:59 and after that grace period, only then does it start ramping up - presumably with a cap on how high it can 17:47:00 I've lost count of the number of people who map Shoals entirely and then drown, for instance, just because they think they'll miss items otherwise :P 17:47:04 Jordan7hm: those wimps :) 17:47:14 greensnark: priceless! 17:47:20 hive is a situation where the value is higher than the aggravation 17:47:29 since the point is just to try to make people do branches earlier, not to make the branches always be hard (if you come back way way way later on an uberchar, no need to try to balance for that) 17:47:31 Hive rewards mindless tedium with food 17:47:32 labs are just a puzzle that doesn't fit in crawl followed by loot 17:47:35 And items 17:47:40 Jordan7hm: that's a very subjective assessment. I skip Hive whenever I can. 17:47:54 you value the food less than the aggravation 17:47:58 Jordan7hm: not necessarily, but that sort of comparison shouldn't even happen 17:47:58 casmith789: one suggestion was made to have the mino be super buff and wandering 17:48:03 that might be interesting 17:48:11 Hive is fun and takes like five minues. 17:48:13 I don't disagree, I'm just saying that people will generally do what's fun (dying being not fun) 17:48:13 The lab could be more active 17:48:17 I agree with ekiM 17:48:28 (also, make him able to move around, so that even if you tele when you spot him he'll catch up with you fast) 17:48:28 What is greensnark's suggestion? 17:48:31 labs show up quite early now, to the point where the minotaur can be an actual threat 17:48:35 which is nice at least 17:48:36 I don't have a serious suggestion 17:48:38 removing the teleport trap end vault from the lab 17:48:40 casmith789: (a) some people like labs, (b) they have been around forever, (c) they have been improved considerably, (d) at most one per game now. Case closed? 17:48:40 would be suggestion #1 17:48:45 Jordan7hm: Why? 17:48:46 Jordan7hm: oh god seriously, yessss 17:48:52 nothing like finishing the stupid lab 17:48:55 the minotaur is also pretty frightening if it picks up a rod 17:48:55 to have to restart 17:49:03 it's a terrible, unfun, spoiler-rewarding vault 17:49:06 Hm. 17:49:08 its the only vault that makes me want to go into the .des files to spoil myself 17:49:18 all it wastes is a bit of your time, it's not any appreciable amount of food 17:49:19 It was a lot of fun making those lab vaults, I tell ya! 17:49:30 lab could use more cooler stuff 17:49:39 more small monster vaults, small features 17:49:39 Jordan7hm: Details! 17:49:44 minotaur packs 17:49:44 I'll work on some 17:49:47 I enjoyed the first couple of labs. And I enjoyed the one today, because I had great fun blasting through the walls with LRD 17:49:53 Eronarn: Lich minotaurs 17:49:54 I think labs would be more fun if they had no maprot 17:49:56 greensnark: can you ramp up the mutation rate of labyrinths? 17:50:01 there should be a minotaur surrounded by blade traps with beef jerky all over the floor 17:50:06 Hehe 17:50:08 I like it 17:50:14 really though: make the minotaur very buff and wandering 17:50:21 dpeg: Why not 17:50:24 with special code to make him always able to catch up with you 17:50:24 I hadn't played much .6 or .7 and I did notice that the lab has more stuff now than it used to (though maybe just my perception) 17:50:24 Eronarn: sounds good to me. 17:50:25 on labs, the mazier Hells are kind of like labs except they actually pressure the player to go fast, have good challenge, etc. 17:50:28 the glass walls and stuff 17:50:31 greensnark: do it! I can't :) 17:50:54 I'll get to it tomorrow 17:50:55 it would turn lab into 'this place is trivial to solve, but you might run into the minotaur, and he's likely to be unkillable' 17:50:59 I agree with casmith789. 17:51:01 Tonight I'm just waiting for my cao backup to finish 17:51:12 which means you are committing yourself to have to use some unknown amount of your escape items 17:51:22 or get into a very tough fight 17:51:22 except for hell banishment, of course. speaking of hell banishment, if there's a good implementable about it, I'm willing to code 17:51:29 ekiM: without maprot you'd just autoexplore? 17:51:31 monqy: 'remove it' 17:51:38 Eronarn: yes but how 17:51:49 didn't someone suggest forbidding banishment in hell entirely? 17:51:50 dpeg: which outlines the problem with labyrinths 17:51:54 monqy: just specialcase it for now, it doesn't add anything to the game to be randomly banished while standing around in hell 17:51:57 ie from weapons, random effects, the spell 17:51:59 Eronarn: special-casing miscasts from hell effects to remove banishment? special-casing banishment in hell? 17:52:00 casmith789: I don't have a problem with labyrinths. 17:52:10 the interface is ruining the player's labyrinth play 17:52:12 monqy: miscast, for now 17:52:13 Labyrinths should play more like those bits in House of Leaves. 17:52:14 We should use more braided mazes 17:52:19 Who among devs is fine with removing hell banishment? I am. 17:52:24 monster banishment in hell isn't anything worse than monster banishment anywhere else late game 17:52:35 hell banishment is nothing like labyrinth maprot 17:52:37 +1 Hell banishment removal 17:52:38 hell banishment makes little sense 17:52:39 (which is to say, it definitely still has problems) 17:52:51 banishment as a hell effect wouldn't be missed, yeah 17:53:00 The main problem, to me, is that the Abyss is like a resting place if you're doing hells. 17:53:04 removing it makes hell much less annoying and eliminates a reprieve 17:53:05 But I'd retain the banishment as the miscast effect 17:53:05 it's a nuisance, and actually helps you 17:53:11 greensnark: yes, sure 17:53:13 oh right we were actually changing the subject 17:53:17 Hell + Abyss are separate planes in my mental flavor map. And the Abyss is too easy if you're doing a Hell. 17:53:22 I mentioned this somewhere else, but hell banishment is basically "return to the start of the map, be fully healed, and get some loot" 17:53:41 evilmike: and waste 5000 turns on your speedrun :) 17:53:43 + spend 10 minutes doing something boring 17:53:44 dpeg: abyss with the lovecraftian-ish monsters; but they only come out to play once you've been there longer amounts of time, or gotten the abyssal rune, or have pissed off Lugonu 17:53:51 monqy: seems we gladly accept a patch that removes hell banishment but keeps the miscast effect :) 2:0 17:53:53 I remember I tried poking around making hell effects get their own miscast type and then special-casing it not to banish, but there was a bit of ugliness since there was another special-case in the code and they didn't stack well 17:54:02 and i mean 'longer amounts of time' in the per-game sense, not per-trip sense 17:54:09 Eronarn: for making Abyss harder? 17:54:11 i.e., if you spend 50k turns in the abyss, it starts from 50k later 17:54:13 yes 17:54:19 Eronarn: yes, something like this. 17:54:31 which is why I liked the idea of making banishment attempts in hell generally do something special, like fail but open up a malign gateway 17:54:36 was that galehar's idea? I forget 17:54:45 * Eronarn has plans to write up a panlord-level random abyss monster generator 17:54:46 That's a nice idea 17:54:51 I'm fine with removing hjell banishment 17:54:58 3:0 17:55:10 It's boring and tedious and one of the reasons I don't do hell. 17:55:23 monqy: are you willing to take that up? (I am only happy when I know a good idea is with someone.) Bonus points for malign gateways. 17:55:50 malign gateways are good? I'll look into doing it like that 17:55:51 Hjell = like Hell, only in Norway 17:55:53 eh, banishment is fine in hell other than the hell effect i think 17:56:04 Eronarn: that's what I meant 17:56:05 due: it is Helvete, I think. 17:56:08 What else banishes in hell anyway? 17:56:14 miscasts 17:56:17 dpeg: Fjord joke :) 17:56:20 distortion, casters with it 17:56:20 usually the player trying to escape in a panic 17:56:23 summ and tloc 17:56:38 Eronarn: We're referring to hell effect banishment here 17:56:40 self-banishment, but that is always cheap, unless you belong to Lugone 17:56:54 only problem I think is lugonu self-banishment, yeah; would it be reasonable to special-case this to work and not make a malign gateway? 17:56:54 It's not like banishment from other sources is common in Hell 17:57:18 monqy: I'd say make only hell miscast effects do special banishment 17:57:39 hm 17:57:40 what greensnark says 17:57:47 add malign gateway as a miscast effect; if hell effect miscast rolls banishment, instead it does malign gateway 17:57:49 monqy: Oh, just edit hell miscast banishment 17:57:50 done 17:58:02 Eronarn: elegant! 17:58:04 where "special banishment" == "cast malign gateway" 17:58:13 ok 17:58:16 it should really be a miscast anyways 17:58:22 Eronarn: true 17:58:28 monqy: malign gateway should be doable as a non-monster spell too 17:58:43 mg as a miscast for both summ and tloc? 17:58:50 it'd make sense, yeah 17:58:55 ??malign gateway 17:58:55 malign gateway[1/1]: Summons a portal through which an eldritch tentacle emerges. Depending on spell power, it will be friendly for a number of turns, before turning hostile, or the portal closes and it is severed, whichever happens first (either way, it will turn hostile). Level 7 Summ/Tloc found in the Book of Demonology. 1/3 chance of draining a point of int. 17:58:57 Out of whose twisted, bizarre brain did the idea of MG evolve anyway? Looks like Mu? 17:59:09 Far too many people around here obsessed with tentacles 17:59:10 dpeg: Think it was Mu 17:59:11 it was planted there by the beings beyond space and time 17:59:25 greensnark: you forgot a 'not' 17:59:37 well, 'are not', anyhow 17:59:38 greensnark: MG is really cool to watch. 18:00:04 Yes, writhing tentacles have a certain something. 18:00:08 yeah MG was my idea :P (and none of my work) 18:00:17 greensnark: a 'je ne sais qois'? 18:00:27 due: Right 18:00:38 :D 18:00:42 More cool effects please! I was really impressed with MG and IOoD. Among others. 18:00:46 greensnark: I am making palak daal tonight. 18:01:06 !learn add itsmu Malign gateway was his idea 18:01:06 itsmu[5/5]: Malign gateway was his idea 18:01:15 dpeg: homunculus absolutely won't be finished for 0.8 -- possibly not even 0.9, but I think that's okay 18:01:17 due: Have fun :) 18:01:29 I'm not a huge fan of palak, but it's pretty popular :) 18:01:46 At least you're not making palak paneer, there is some hope for you :P 18:01:52 due: don't worry. Let's try to finish the holies for 0.9, ideally complete with Zig monster set, and Pan level. 18:03:01 Frying pan level 18:03:26 greensnark: actually, it was the first curry I came across which didn't seem totally tomato based 18:03:35 I am not really a fan of paneer 18:04:00 * greensnark hates paneer. 18:04:07 re: branch hopping. Let's all thinkg about the matter some more, okayß 18:04:30 Yes! 18:05:03 D:1-9: best part of Crawl 18:05:15 1.0 is around the corner, need to beat Crawl into something hardy with our nerf hammers by then. 18:05:22 What, really? 18:05:28 Of course not :) 18:05:28 Aren't we going to 0.10 after 0.9 18:05:34 greensnark: I totally agree, actually. D:1-9 is my favourite part of the game. 18:05:35 Has never been settled. 18:05:39 Or we could do hexadecimal numbering 18:05:39 greensnark: Early portal vaults, early uniques, etc. 18:05:49 You need a rune to go past D:15. Or Have some big levels that are TOUGH and all the downstairs are in the middle on D:15. 18:06:06 The new stuff in early dungeon is great 18:06:07 oh hey requiring a rune at some point in the midgame is an interesting one 18:06:08 Early orc castles. 18:06:17 MarvinPA: I agree. 18:06:21 that idea is the best one yet 18:06:22 one issue is when you end up with crappy unique floors in branches 18:06:25 Plus the fact that you're far more constrained in the amount of dungeon you can retreat to safely while still farming xp 18:06:36 hm 18:06:39 Once you hit the Lair, you get a huge increase in the amount of dungeon you can farm 18:06:39 with multiple tough uniques 18:06:54 need a rune to leave Lair 18:06:56 we could make further descent past a certain point require a rune, and access to the "other" of the threee primary branches also require a rune 18:07:03 monqy: Something like that! 18:07:06 you either go back or move forward, and moving forward means that retreat could be blocked off 18:07:07 or, a rune to enter vaults! 18:07:22 which makes most people retreat and switch branches 18:07:27 a rune to enter vaults might work, especially with late D now having bigger (nastier) vaults 18:07:29 I love getting a rune before leaving Lair -- one of the best things in the game 18:07:52 Jordan7hm: that happens very rarely 18:07:54 locking people out of branches is better than locking people into them, I think 18:07:57 to enter Vaults, that is 18:08:22 monqy: winning lairless is the other best thing :P 18:08:26 yes! 18:08:30 asking for one rune in the first half of dungeon is good, as is asking for another for Vaults 18:08:52 due: I'd say it happens most games 18:08:57 ack, cao down to 160M :P 18:09:02 dpeg: so long as it doesn't lock people out of challenge games 18:09:04 due: the occurance is not that rare, in my experience. You get levels with Aizul, Agnes and Nikola and as a result switch until later. 18:09:07 I might actually have to take down telnet until this backup is done 18:09:14 Ahh a rune to enter the vaults and a sharp spike in difficulty of the main dungeon sounds very cool. Especially if the difficulty is implemented by cool levels like Forest or whatever. Also I got the River of Lethe in my last win, that is old and super cool. 18:09:19 hm 18:09:21 the only games I find it doesn't happen are games where I die too soon :) 18:09:31 ekiM: Yeah, Lemuel classic that :) 18:09:38 casmith789: Does it actually or are you just only remembering the instances where it does? 18:09:41 I think he put Maud in there 18:09:42 ekiM: kilobyte bumped up the chances of getting vaults like that in the late dungeon now 18:09:42 not saying this is a bad thing. 18:09:55 monqy: I don't worry about challenge games. We design for ordinary games, players will make their challenges themselves. 18:09:57 Lethe <3 18:10:01 perhaps gearing multiple uniques to generate moreso in the main dungeon 18:10:06 rather than in branch levels 18:10:13 so it's likely that you'll get 2 or 3 big late D vaults in most games, which is pretty awesome 18:10:17 Jordan7hm: Which branches are issueous? 18:10:21 due: I will investigate. 18:10:26 We can icnrease their individual weights. 18:10:29 dummy weights, rather 18:10:30 No amnesia traps anymore though. :P 18:10:58 dpeg: maybe I should have been more specific with what I meant to say: "so long as it doesn't too strictly enforce a single order" 18:10:58 ekiM: we could use maprot for Lethe, though 18:11:13 Time to go out, bye! 18:11:17 monqy: sure sure, but I think there is still enough content to let players react. 18:11:20 due: bye! 18:11:25 How about on D:15 there is a "castle" with a "drawbridge" and 5-9 scrolls of acquirement in the corner towers. 18:11:34 Hehe 18:11:36 -!- |eith| has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:11:37 * due pushes ekiM into the moat. 18:11:39 heh 18:11:41 cool apart from the drawbridge :) 18:11:54 And if you fall through a trapdoor you land in the Vestibule 18:12:29 Where Geryon will be suitably impressed if you scribble random words starting with "E" on the floor 18:12:31 Ideally, the dungeon levels would look different before and after the checkpoint 18:12:54 You: "Eigenvector" Geryon: Aaaargh! 18:13:02 <3 18:13:04 Yeah, my actual idea is: how about a level on D:15 that is pretty damn tough (not sure what the flavor is but "castle' might be a placeholder..) and to progress to the deep dungeon with the different difficulty and style you either have to beat that level, or use a rune to open a shortcut. 18:13:45 Yes, it'd be nice to have some milestones in the main dungeon 18:14:19 I was thinking more about malign gateway as a miscast and it seems a bit problematic: what about when there's not enough space to make one? Would hiding in closed spaces to avoid it be too abusable? 18:14:21 (I realize i have been inspired a little bit by NH here, hence the joke, but... I think it could help with the midgame blues) 18:14:27 By the way, this would also explain the idea of "rune" = "some sort of key" quite well. 18:14:43 the scrolls of acquirement should be in a chest, and there should be 4 dragons locked behind doors leading into rooms with different types of loot, the whole area filled with vault guards and 5 shaft traps 18:14:50 monqy: well, you get other miscasts then, no? 18:14:58 Stop it! 18:15:08 No more references to this lame and sad excuse of a game! 18:15:19 -!- dpeg is now known as kickpeg 18:15:26 heh 18:15:27 -!- blackflare has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:15:30 that's a bit sad, calling crawl lame :( I rather like it 18:15:40 casmith789: That's crazy talk 18:16:09 Also no jokes about the crippled, disabled and crawling part of humanity. 18:16:12 Also the random portals to hell and pan are a bit... random. How about large vaults to access them? 18:16:29 And much fewer. 18:16:32 ekiM: entry portals to Abyss, Hell, Pan are cool, suire. 18:16:40 well there are only 2 to pan iirc? 18:16:46 Just need someone to create entry vaults 18:16:59 An added bonus of entry vaults will be livening up the dungeon that contains the vault 18:17:16 Right! 18:17:35 dpeg: on getting different miscasts, right, but is the potential to avoid a specific miscast worrisome? 18:18:23 Everyone here knows that speech, tiles, vaults can be created even by the braindead, illiterate, lobomotised and otherwise handicapped populace. And we'll take most everything. 18:18:58 i keep meaning to try my hand at some vaults 18:19:06 Well I am all of those things, maybe I will look into it. :P 18:19:09 kickpeg: That ... didn't sound very complimentary :) 18:19:11 since i go on about how much i want d:27 vaults so often 18:19:12 MarvinPA: you're a coder, you can do better :) 18:19:15 MarvinPA: make sure you don't go to vault 8 18:19:19 haha :P 18:19:21 Once I got autochannel and autofight up to scratch. 18:19:23 monqy: no, I don't think so. What are the other Tloc/Sum miscast effects? 18:19:34 MarvinPA: dpeg is afraid of programmers who design vaults, actually 18:19:47 Because they don't put in enough glass 18:20:08 -!- bf has joined ##crawl-dev 18:20:14 Well, our coders are sensible, sensitive, literate with living brains -- they're the pinnacles of mankind! 18:20:17 Also while he's changed his nick, you can safely reference him as dpeg and he won't even notice! 18:20:24 Only that they don't value glass enough. 18:20:27 dpeg only reads lines where he's nickpinged 18:20:32 dpeg: tloc high level is instant teleport/damage/confusion, masses of damage (distortion unwield effects), glow; summ high level is summon hostile 1s 18:20:38 Oh wait, he's cheating and reading everything! 18:20:44 * kickpeg sends everyone a metric ton of glass. 18:20:59 Argh dpeg is a different color now, confusing! 18:21:06 -!- kickpeg is now known as dpeg 18:21:12 monqy: given that, don't worry about players trying to skip MG. 18:21:15 how hard should d:27 vaults be, should they contain all zot portals, etc etc? 18:21:24 that sounds like an interesting thing to attempt 18:21:46 kickpeg: tloc 3 is high damage, damage&tele&confusion, banishment, or high glow; summ 3 is permanent small abomination, permanent 1, a few abjurable common demons, or banishment 18:21:51 You'd just use downstairs that get fixed up as Zot portals, iirc 18:22:10 evilmike: my vision of them is either for some big-ish vaults that contain all the zot portals and are reasonably dangerous (nasty late D monsters or maybe some draconians) 18:22:12 19:13 < ekiM> Yeah, my actual idea is: how about a level on D:15 that is pretty damn tough (not sure what the flavor is but "castle' might be a placeholder..) and to progress to the deep dungeon with the different difficulty and style you either have to beat that level, or use a rune to open a shortcut. 18:22:17 dpeg: of course, some of these miscast effects being trivial isn't a problem with making a really nasty one 18:22:18 maybe this could be the Vaults entrance? 18:22:19 And it depends on the vault: you get to decide if you want to include all the portals in it 18:22:19 or someone suggested using serial vaults too 18:22:23 difficulty comparable to v:8? 18:22:28 evilmike: Lemuel made a number of D:27->Zot vaults that contained all stairs but I randomised them. 18:22:37 i mean, appearing on the same level as the Vaults entrance 18:22:44 to have a bunch of smaller vaults containing the zot entrances spread around the floor 18:22:50 lemuel_castle can show up in late D with draconians in it, it's terrifying 18:22:54 drac castle I had this game which seems pretty hard. I decided to clear it even though it wasn't necessary 18:22:54 dpeg: Really? I don't remember seeing such vaults? 18:23:09 I mean late D vaults, yes, but not vaults that were designed for D:27 18:23:12 greensnark: oh, I do. Some of them have an agreeable amount of oklobs. 18:23:17 I just think they are too rare. 18:23:24 Eronarn: and you can either have found a rune to "unlock the vaults" (which makes sense, kinda), or beat the "castle" to go further in the dungeon? 18:23:31 dpeg: all those vaults got a massive boost to how often they appear recently 18:23:45 the monster density is so high with lemuel castle that it does become incredibly difficult when it's full of draconians, and the death drakes makes it even worse 18:23:45 dpeg: particularly, the high damage, abjurable common demons, and permanent small abom seem trivial. the permanent 1 is probably usually less nasty than a malign gateway, too 18:23:45 I think the chance is 1/4 per level after D:20 or similar 18:23:53 (now) 18:23:53 ekiM: maybe, it's something to think of anyways 18:24:04 casmith789: I know, and I am very glad that kilobyte did that. 18:24:20 "probably" because it's highly situational 18:24:24 monqy: not sure, with MG you have more time to react. 18:24:32 hm 18:24:43 I guess I'll try my hand at implementing it, then 18:24:51 monqy: in any case, it'll be an improvement -- yay :) 18:25:25 another concern: the miscast switches aren't structured very well for special cases and rerolling; it might be good to redo them 18:25:58 Re-write Crawl in Python imo. 18:26:05 heheheh 18:26:18 rewrite crawl in haskell 18:26:27 I'm rather partial to haskell, myself 18:26:28 scheme too 18:26:56 There's docs for making vaults right? 18:27:05 yeah 18:27:38 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:27:49 the documentation seems partially outdated though, I couldnt get some of the stuff in the docs to work even by directly copying it (renamed obviously) 18:27:49 Cool. 18:28:13 the documentation seems up to date except for serial vaults and maybe some of the really advanced stuff I dont know about 18:28:49 For the complicated stuff, it's best to use existing vaults to guide your implementation 18:28:52 although the stuff Jordan7hm is making falls under "really advanced stuff" 18:29:25 Serial vaults? 18:29:38 yeah that's what i found greensnark 18:29:40 "Serial vault" is a bad name for it :P 18:29:51 my wacky first idea at miscast restructuring: a structure for representing each miscast school/severity set; this structure is a list of function pointers and each function returns a boolean (true on success); for miscast effect determination, call a random function in the list and reroll on failure 18:29:55 ekiM: Vault clusters: one vault places a bunch of similarly themed vaults 18:29:55 Corny. 18:29:57 I think what would help is a listing of lua functions you can use, rather than having to source dive 18:30:03 I'll work on one eventually 18:30:08 what's crawl's policy on function pointers? 18:30:24 Jordan7hm: That stuff should be generated automatically to prevent it rotting 18:30:44 There's a vague general plan to use a doxygen preprocessor, but nobody's gotten to it yet 18:30:56 monqy: What polcy? Use it if it helps 18:31:09 there are a lot of existing hell entry vaults that could be used 18:31:11 yeah that would be better 18:31:16 but something is better than nothing :) 18:31:19 greensnark: sounds good 18:31:49 any simpler ideas for restructuring miscast effect switches? 18:32:03 oh huh, there's some hell entries that never appear? 18:32:04 Wait, function pointers for miscast effect switches? 18:32:20 yeah 18:32:20 I spent a couple hours just testing out the function that i grabbed from the various l_.cc files to figure out what the arguments were, but someone probably shouldnt have to do that to make semi-complicated vaults 18:33:03 I'm kind of used to functional programming; sometimes I forget how ugly that sort of deal is in C :( 18:33:05 monqy: Oh right, to choose the individual effects easily 18:33:19 I actually completely forgot C++ doesn't have lambdas 18:34:02 How do I easily search for a commit whose message contains a particular string? 18:34:03 C++0x ftw 18:34:14 MarvinPA: they appear, but not specifically on the floors where hell portals spawn 18:34:19 03dpeg * r71a0489bda46 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/portals/spider.des: Add two new Spider portal vault maps by 7hm (#3555). 18:34:28 ah, weird 18:35:11 dpeg: git log --grep=Spider 18:35:18 thank you 18:35:22 Or do what I do and just 'git log' and search in less using / 18:35:28 oh I was thinking piping to grep but that works too 18:36:27 -!- ekiM has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:38:46 probably easier in C++ just to put a do...while loop around the switches 18:39:01 and a far less drastic change 18:39:30 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 18:39:33 rawr 18:40:15 Downloading linux, I can't dev DCSS in windows, I can't and I WON'T! 18:40:38 -!- bf has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:40:43 !players 18:40:45 16 players: TempMfCr, chowder, Tenaya, VicViper, domo, mindloss, Ninvader, moramartin, perf, undersol, Arafel, nerdbeard, Pyrusette, rizdon7777, Blackmore, qubitsu 18:40:59 windows or bust 18:41:50 Cryp71c: few people can, it seems :) 18:42:05 VicViper, those memories 18:42:05 I used to use my Windows work machine for Crawl :P 18:43:45 -!- OG17 has quit [] 18:43:57 Jordan7hm: serial vaults are carefully explained, just turn to section N in advanced.txt :P 18:44:08 And of course not under the name "serial vaults". 18:44:19 I haven't even looked at serial vaults :) 18:45:37 But weren't you the one who remarked that they're not documented? What else is missing or dated? 18:45:49 -!- bf has joined ##crawl-dev 18:46:42 not the serial vaults in particular - I'll have to look through it again, but I had something recently when I was trying to set up the arena portal... copied the explanation code directly and it didn't work, adjust the wording and it did. I'll take a look to see if I can find the exact part 18:47:28 thank you 18:48:08 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 18:49:21 evilmike: serial vaults are easy, they don't even need documentation 18:49:45 I was mostly curious about abyss serial vaults 18:50:19 when I have more time I'll just figure out out by experimenting, though 18:50:53 dpeg suggested a while ago somewhere that serial vaults in the abyss would be interesting, I think they would be (mostly for scenery) 18:54:39 Did those tile issues in the abyss get fixed 18:54:44 -!- OG17 has joined ##crawl-dev 18:56:16 evilmike: I believe that serial vaults, even if only furniture, can give appeal to an otherwise rather bland landscape. That was my main motivation behind serial vaults at least. The applications about serial oklobs etc. are then lovely corollaries. 18:56:37 doh! Forgot I don't have a cd-rom drive on this sytem. 18:57:14 i made a serial vault themed around blood and gore but wasn't sure whether to push it or not :P 18:57:47 Ah, the glories of ##crawl 18:57:53 Mu_: of course! 18:57:59 I see elliptic has joined the crowd in proclaiming that the early game is too hard 18:58:00 greensnark: what is itß 18:58:00 how does vault generation even work in abyss 18:58:06 greensnark: what no 18:58:08 And TGWi is being a fuckwit as usual 18:58:09 that's not what I said 18:58:13 <3 greensnark 18:58:23 at all 18:58:28 Our elliptic? He must be a schizophrenic then, for over here he is always on the good side. 18:58:41 Sorry < elliptic> except that you won't get early game nerfed because dpeg already hates the idea of streaks 18:58:48 Sounded like it, maybe I was misreading you 18:58:56 that wasn't a statement that I want early game nerfed 18:59:02 he also said "I don't really have an opinion on the matter"... 18:59:08 as you might have guessed given my previous statement 18:59:16 But every hypothetical discussion in ##crawl-dev getting conflated into the devs-hate-players on ##crawl is pretty annoying 18:59:19 I was just trying to get tgwi to stop complaining :P 18:59:30 elliptic: Ok, sorry, I did misread you 18:59:41 My bad 18:59:43 more like "a dev believes the game should hate players" 19:00:17 I think I spelled out in detail in the pas-de-faq. 19:00:23 not liking aspects of a game is not a personal attack on people who add new features and have little to nothing to do with the problem 19:01:08 I don't hate streaks, but if players can win streaks, that's an indication something is wrong. We've been to generous with the winning margin. 19:01:13 TGWi: Sorry, but you chased the fuckwit theme really hard over in ##crawl just now. You have some way to go working that off :P 19:01:47 Truth to be told, TGWi is not the most constructive participant over here either. 19:01:55 Oh, he can be 19:02:07 Must be when I am off :) 19:02:11 -!- upsy has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:02:37 when it's only eronarn and me? of course 19:02:38 :P 19:02:42 pardon me, but is it reasonable for failed miscast banishment (it also fails when already in the abyss) to degrade into malign gateway, and on failing that, reroll? 19:02:51 monqy: go away we're hating me 19:02:56 :( 19:02:57 monqy: sure! 19:03:05 monqy: Looks fine 19:03:10 * greensnark hates TGWi some more. 19:03:12 monqy: also, you're the only one who does not have to apologise. You're on topic. 19:03:38 does miscast banishment fail anywhere except in abyss? 19:03:46 it fails from hell effects now 19:03:59 Hell miscast banishment is slated to go 19:04:09 really? okay 19:04:43 I always thought people complained too much about hell miscast banishment, but I'm certainly not attached to it either... 19:05:09 -!- upsy has joined ##crawl-dev 19:06:19 -!- pointless_ has joined ##crawl-dev 19:11:13 time to go, cheers 19:11:15 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:22:38 -!- pointless_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:22:40 -!- pointless__ has joined ##crawl-dev 19:22:42 -!- pointless__ is now known as pointless_ 19:26:59 is casting malign gateway with a dummy monster the best way to make one? 19:28:46 -!- edlothiol has quit [Quit: edlothiol] 19:29:18 -!- upsy has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:29:32 malign gateway in hells actually sounds a little strange to me for flavor reasons if I understand the malign gateway flavor correctly 19:30:27 since it isn't exactly aligned with hells and I'm not sure the hell lords would really want tentacles poking into their lands 19:30:41 but I might be wrong 19:33:17 -!- upsy has joined ##crawl-dev 19:37:11 the voice that speaks to you in hell is the starspawn abomination, it's canon 19:38:29 oh okay ;) 19:48:27 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:06:42 Abyssal Knights cannot Depart Abyss in Zot Defense. (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3630) by Gigalith 20:08:58 -!- Adeon has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:09:18 -!- Adeon has joined ##crawl-dev 20:11:29 -!- pointless_ has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86.1 [Firefox 3.6.7/20100713130626]] 20:20:34 -!- valrus_ has joined ##crawl-dev 20:20:41 -!- valrus_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:20:47 -!- valrus_ has joined ##crawl-dev 20:44:19 03kilobyte * r9878742b9564 10/crawl-ref/source/ (abl-show.cc ng-setup.cc religion.cc): ZotDef: no Abyss with Lugonu. 20:44:25 03kilobyte * r350b47dd68d2 10/crawl-ref/source/ (fight.cc item_use.cc mon-act.cc): Temporarily halve the speed brand nerf. 20:49:13 -!- ZChris13 has joined ##crawl-dev 20:53:49 -!- ZChris13 has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:54:37 -!- Mu_ has quit [Quit: Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place.] 20:54:51 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 20:59:23 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:08:53 -!- ZChris13 has joined ##crawl-dev 21:17:04 spriggans have no food in ZotDef (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3631) by KiloByte 21:18:15 03kilobyte * r206b326da850 10/crawl-ref/source/book-data.h: Disable Tukima's Ball as a player spell. 21:18:28 -!- ZChris13 has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86.1 [Firefox 3.6.15/20110303024726]] 21:24:14 03kilobyte * r1079d134e06b 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/portals/spider.des: Whitespace and alignment fixes. 21:29:06 -!- ZChris13 has joined ##crawl-dev 21:32:16 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 21:32:45 :( my linux installation failed to install the bootloader for some reason, but I had work to do so I had to reboot....now I have to install grub manually 21:32:47 grrrr 21:37:24 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:43:07 -!- upsy has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:49:54 due: what's the best way to create a hostile malign gateway? cast the spell with a dummy monster? 21:53:16 -!- Clatch has joined ##crawl-dev 21:54:46 -!- TGWi has left ##crawl-dev 21:56:12 -!- ZChris13 has quit [Quit: Reconnecting…] 21:56:19 -!- ZChris13 has joined ##crawl-dev 22:02:44 -!- casmith789 has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:04:47 -!- casmith789 has joined ##crawl-dev 22:54:20 -!- TGWi has joined ##crawl-dev 23:06:05 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:06:19 -!- ZChris13 has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:12:46 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 23:17:21 kilobyte: given how you felt about berserk hunger requirements being inconsistent, want to change cloak of darkness? currently it is unusable at hungry for some reason 23:17:51 that cloak should be glowless or something 23:17:54 atm it's pretty weak 23:18:16 no one ever uses it 23:18:17 otoh I've never found it with evo 23:18:24 I've been using it a lot my current game 23:18:30 how much does it cost? 23:18:32 like 3? 23:18:49 people do use it or ring of invis when they find it on a stabber without the spell 23:19:07 I don't know how large the hunger cost is, but certainly not large enough to forbid using it at hungry 23:19:18 the cloak is just a ring in cloak form though 23:19:19 afaik 23:19:32 I don't know whether the ring has the same hunger restriction 23:19:35 whereas boots of lev, say, are way fancier than the ring 23:19:42 but the spell and potion do not have a hunger restriction 23:19:58 I agree that the cloak isn't the best item, but the hunger restriction is still silly 23:20:09 all evokables do 23:20:30 except amulet of rage doesn't any more, right? or did you leave that in? 23:20:37 evokable invis, you mean? 23:20:40 or does lev and stuff also have it 23:20:47 lev can be used at hungry 23:20:55 so I guess kilobyte just meant invis 23:22:06 !tell due For implementing hostile malign gateway as a miscast effect, what do you think the best way to create one would be? cast the spell with a dummy monster? 23:22:07 monqy: OK, I'll let due know. 23:23:07 here's a crazy idea... actually make cloak of darkness evoke for darkness 23:23:12 rather than invis 23:23:29 how about permanent darkness 23:23:41 it would have to be a limited form of darkness, of course, so as not to be too overpowered 23:23:53 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:24:09 permanent LoS reduction could work also I guess 23:24:11 darkness is a buff you want to have before seeing things 23:24:24 "optimal" play is to keep it up always, which is annoying 23:24:37 permanent los reduction by 12.5% or whatever 23:24:38 imo 23:24:40 elliptic: good idea 23:25:04 yeah, permanent LoS reduction by 1 square (except it is multiplicative) sounds reasonable 23:26:14 03kilobyte * rd35ab41f5e90 10/crawl-ref/source/abl-show.cc: Remove the satiation requirements from evokable invis. 23:33:08 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 23:40:09 -!- Sequell has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:41:51 -!- Sequell has joined ##crawl-dev 23:41:53 !lg jarmok win 1 -ttyrec 23:41:56 1. jarmok, XL27 OMWz, T:173250: http://termcast.develz.org/crawl.akrasiac.org/ttyrecs/jarmok/ 2006-12-25.22:04:22.ttyrec.bz2 2006-12-26.13:46:50.ttyrec.bz2 2006-12-26.18:19:26.ttyrec.bz2 2006-12-26.23:16:36.ttyrec.bz2 2006-12-27.12:46:59.ttyrec.bz2 2006-12-27.15:33:53.ttyrec.bz2 2006-12-27.17:13:01.ttyrec.bz2 2006-12-27.21:19:30.ttyrec.bz2 2006-12-28.21:07:38.ttyrec.bz2 2006-12-28.23:12:20.ttyrec.... 23:44:00 !lg jarmok win 1 -ttyrec 23:44:00 1. jarmok, XL27 OMWz, T:173250: http://termcast.develz.org/cao/ttyrecs/jarmok/ 2006-12-25.22:04:22.ttyrec.bz2 2006-12-26.13:46:50.ttyrec.bz2 2006-12-26.18:19:26.ttyrec.bz2 2006-12-26.23:16:36.ttyrec.bz2 2006-12-27.12:46:59.ttyrec.bz2 2006-12-27.15:33:53.ttyrec.bz2 2006-12-27.17:13:01.ttyrec.bz2 2006-12-27.21:19:30.ttyrec.bz2 2006-12-28.21:07:38.ttyrec.bz2 2006-12-28.23:12:20.ttyrec.bz2 2006-12-29.... 23:47:34 !lg * Tomb 1 --tyrec 23:47:34 Malformed argument: --tyrec 23:47:38 !lg * Tomb 1 -ttyrec 23:47:48 1. jarmok, XL27 SEWz, T:145617: http://termcast.develz.org/cao/ttyrecs/jarmok/ 2006-12-20.12:38:47.ttyrec.bz2 2006-12-20.14:09:57.ttyrec.bz2 2006-12-20.16:59:30.ttyrec.bz2 2006-12-20.17:22:31.ttyrec.bz2 2006-12-20.20:31:03.ttyrec.bz2 2006-12-21.12:08:30.ttyrec.bz2 2006-12-21.14:23:35.ttyrec.bz2 2006-12-21.22:12:08.ttyrec.bz2 2006-12-23.18:00:26.ttyrec.bz2 2006-12-23.21:07:54.ttyrec.bz2 2006-12-23.... 23:47:57 !lg * Tomb 1 -tv 23:47:58 1. jarmok, XL27 SEWz, T:145617 requested for FooTV. 23:48:00 greensnark: will reavers be returning as brawnjurers? 23:48:23 !lg * Tomb 1 -tv 23:48:23 1. jarmok, XL27 SEWz, T:145617 requested for FooTV. 23:48:57 TGWi: Sounds unlikely 23:49:02 :( 23:49:10 They were more like wimpjurers anyway 23:49:40 pawnjurers 23:49:55 yawnjurers 23:50:02 yes, those 23:51:01 and now they're gonejurers :( 23:51:11 I'm done 23:56:40 Just how much space does CDO use for all the crawl versions it hosts 23:57:38 does it ever get rid of old installations? 23:57:40 Oh hey, CDO /var is tiny 23:58:06 TGWi: Yes, but only if all players have transferred their saves to newer versions 23:58:27 If some players haven't there's another script that can force-transfer the saves but that's only run manually 23:59:41 Napkin: All dgl stuff on CDO lives under /var, right?