00:31:16 what's the point of the exp pool cap? 00:37:49 to make v:8/zot/zigs force victory dancing 00:38:10 yeah it seems weird to me 00:49:04 is there a plan for ashenzari to have active wrath effects for 0.8? 00:49:07 -!- Kurper has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:49:10 or will it just be the constant passive wrath 00:53:22 -!- elliptic has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:02:08 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 02:11:39 -!- Adeon is now known as MaryPoppins 02:14:09 -!- Zannick has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:18:01 -!- Hehfiel has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:21:06 -!- elliptic has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:36:04 -!- xyblor_ has joined ##crawl-dev 02:37:46 -!- Textmode has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:39:23 -!- xyblor has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:24:27 -!- Hehfiel has joined ##crawl-dev 03:28:40 -!- evilmike has quit [] 03:48:41 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 04:15:07 -!- monqy has quit [Quit: hello] 04:15:45 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 04:15:53 morning 04:16:16 good morning 04:19:30 galehar: would this be helpful? http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl-ref.git&a=search&h=HEAD&st=commit&s=into+view 04:20:04 I recall there's an old SF tracker item or perhaps old crd discussion about the message, but I don't have time to dig them up 04:20:59 Maybe, thanks. 04:22:03 The issue is a bit tricky to reproduce, but I'll try debugging it anyway. 04:23:30 I'm really wondering why the "already seen" context can trigger the message (delay.cc:1540). This is probably the cause of the bug, but I'll try understanding it beforing blindly remove it. 04:24:17 Is it a bug if I have a berserk guardian mummy? It just fought with a friendly Oklob if that means anything. 04:25:37 seems so 04:29:23 This should help with the 0.8 release schedule: http://xkcd.com/874/ 04:38:38 hii 04:38:41 ekiM: O_o 04:38:48 ekiM: it actually went berserk? 04:39:03 !tell dpeg I will have time to look at things next week and the week after! I'm taking time off. 04:39:03 due: OK, I'll let dpeg know. 04:39:46 galehar: Hah... I wish I had the time to do nothign all day :/ 05:15:55 bad message when failing to switch from distortion to vampiric (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3611) by ortoslon 05:39:46 -!- Ashenzari has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:40:26 -!- Ashenzari has joined ##crawl-dev 05:40:26 -!- The topic of ##crawl-dev is: Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki | Long stuff to pastebin.ca please | Immortal Warwalrus and Crazy Yiuf forever. 05:44:04 -!- ortoslon has joined ##crawl-dev 06:00:09 marvinpa: keep current wrath as an effect for during penance 06:00:18 reduce penance based on exploration 06:00:59 i don't really know how severe the current wrath effect is 06:01:31 you'd have to wake up the level first somehow 06:02:14 monsters don't track you unless they have actually seen you before 06:02:14 can make it more hardcore if you want 06:02:23 occasionally make a random monster aware of you, say 06:02:28 maybe active effects could wake up other parts of the levels 06:02:30 or have oods come up the stairs from below 06:02:55 anyone knows the reason for the 20K limit to exp pool? 06:03:06 TGWi: scummable, more xp 06:03:19 well there's probably nothing wrong with leaving it as-is for now anyway 06:03:24 galehar: can't think of one to be honest 06:03:37 as in, a god without wrath? 06:04:00 wrath is a mess generally anyway :P 06:04:22 how about ashenzari reskill you at random 06:04:29 ??Spell hunger 06:04:30 spell hunger[1/2]: Casting a spell lowers your nutrition by an amount varying with the spell's level: (1) 50, (2) 95, (3) 160, (4) 250, (5) 350, (6) 550, (7) 700, (8) 860, (9) 1000. This amount is lowered by the product of your Intelligence and Spellcasting. (For rods, your Evocation skill * 10, with a minimum of 5.) 06:04:41 TGWi: that's funny :) 06:04:41 although yeah, if it has no effect unless you wake things up then maybe there do need to be more effects 06:05:24 like, waking things up? 06:05:55 sure 06:07:05 i quite liked the suggestion of spawning traps under you to simulate worse t&d 06:07:46 how about worse T&D 06:07:48 would be strange if you or a monster have already stepped on this specific cell. 06:07:52 yeah 06:09:28 -!- Twinge has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:10:00 actually dropping you down a shaft or onto a zot trap seems like a better wrath effect than just worse t&d, especially if you can get around that as the player by tediously searching loads more in dangerous areas (tomb/zot/vaults etc) 06:10:04 -!- Twinge has joined ##crawl-dev 06:10:54 a problem about waking everything and current effects: they hurt stealthy chars very badly while not affecting loud brutes or trigger-happy conjurators at all 06:11:48 it can make things easier even: just stand at a choke point and dispose of the conga line of monsters coming to you 06:12:16 for the record I've been whining about the exp pool for like a year 06:13:02 TGWi: keep it up for one more year and we'll remove it ;) 06:13:04 spawning traps: better than lowering T&D but goes totally against the notion that Ashenzari has no actual powers, just knowledge 06:13:58 TGWi: write an autowhiner and relax :) 06:14:24 if you haven't already 06:14:33 could be flavoured as the trap being there all along and ash clouding your vision or whatever, even if that does run into inconsistencies if you've already stepped there 06:14:55 but yeah, i dunno 06:15:20 maybe not, i can't see i have much else in the way of wrath ideas though :P 06:15:24 can't say* 06:15:26 your vision was so clouded that the trap didn't hit you the first time 06:15:28 out of sympathy 06:15:43 a witch stopped it hitting you the first time 06:15:50 thanks to knowledge from ash 06:19:38 A lot of how Ash works is not clear to me from in-game info. Especially that I can choose which items to uncurse with ?oRC, and what levels of piety get what info (and stuff about having a cursed slot meaning stuff fully iDs or whatever). 06:21:05 yeah... that would take a lot of place to explain fully, though 06:21:42 especially the main god screen has enough space for commits like 679f4f13 06:22:34 More cursed items = more xp could be xplained, and is the only one I think you really can't figure out in-game easily. 06:23:18 except this is going to be removed anyway 06:23:25 which items get identified is a bit weird too 06:23:33 Oh, really. 06:23:35 galehar: it doesn't seem very removed 06:23:40 maybe it should be documented until then 06:23:50 Well the ^! screen has a bit of space, dunno. 06:24:37 even on tinyterms? 06:25:06 Well it says a lot less than many other god descriptions do... 06:25:55 you mean, like Elyvilon? 06:26:04 * kilobyte points to the slew of crashes... 06:27:24 Granted powers: \\ Ashenzari helps you learn. 06:27:45 -> Granted powers: \\ The more cursed you are, the more Ashenzari helps you learn. 06:27:53 where are the monster depth defined? 06:28:15 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 06:28:52 galehar: mon-pick.cc 06:32:25 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 06:34:08 thanks 06:36:07 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 06:46:10 MarvinPA: as you code on Windows, would you have problems with UTF-8 encoded comments? At least in one file. 06:47:39 many years ago I coded a transliteration table like this: http://angband.pl/svn/kbtin/trunk/translit.h -- but http://sprunge.us/hTLb is both 1.8 orders of magnitude more terse and seems to be easier to edit 06:51:18 i don't think it'd be a problem, don't know much about unicode but as far as i understand it i think notepad++ should handle it okay? 06:53:53 I think so... you use notepad++ then? 06:53:53 how does notepad++ handle BOMs? 06:54:09 bhaak: you can't have BOMs in source files 06:54:16 yeah 06:54:35 they're pretty inconsistent with sanity, too 06:54:39 that's the question, does notepad++ consider that? 06:55:00 (I made Crawl accept them in all files it reads of course...) 06:55:18 notepad++ tries some heurestics to see if the file looks like proper UTF-8 06:56:25 so I'll put the transliteration table this way. It's helluva easier to know what "ü" looks like than "latin small letter u with diaeresis". 06:57:34 (I even doubt dpeg or bhaak would know that "diaeresis" means umlaut without looking that up) 06:58:14 I prefer to have the actual character and the unicode point and the unicode name in comments, as there are several characters that look similar to each other 06:58:32 kilobyte: actually it doesn't :-) it just looks exactly the same 06:58:56 you mean, it would be good to have the official name as well? 06:59:05 not sure if we care about anything but the look 06:59:42 the purpose of this table is to let the code know that "ü" in ASCII should be replaced with "u" 06:59:58 I usually generate such translation tables from the official unicode tables and there you get the name for free 07:00:18 kilobyte: I'd have associated "diaeresis" with "diarrhoa", not "umlaut" indeed :) 07:00:18 dpeg: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 07:00:39 !messages 07:00:39 (1/1) due said (2h 21m 36s ago): I will have time to look at things next week and the week after! I'm taking time off. 07:00:50 if somebody who doesn't have those characters in his font or even doesn't have a unicode editor edits that file, having the codepoint or the name in it helps to do the right thing 07:00:59 on Wikipedia, "umlaut" and "diaeresis" redirect to the same article, "trema", which is another thing I didn't know about :p 07:01:12 !tell due That's good enough. You gotthe c-r-d mails about new deadlines? 07:01:12 dpeg: OK, I'll let due know. 07:02:35 !tell due Would it be ok to disable pearl dragons/shedu/ophans in ZotDef for 0.8? There are balance and bug issues, and they don't spawn anywhere in real games nor sprint anyway. 07:02:35 kilobyte: OK, I'll let due know. 07:02:39 we call it tréma in french 07:03:14 in citroën it's a trema, in Heizölrückstoßabdämpfung it's umlauts 07:03:36 MarvinPA: since you're under windows, have you looked at #3535? 07:04:48 ah hm, i thought i commented on that 07:05:18 bhaak: yet it is the very same character. Not even a similar one, like breve vs caron or ogonek vs cedilla. 07:05:22 I wasn't around 07:05:55 i have the same issue, yeah, haven't had a look into what causes it though 07:06:13 ok 07:06:23 but then, we don't give a damn really... all it matters is that Heizölrückstoßabdämpfung needs to be Heizolruckstosabdampfung in ASCII. Can't transliterate "ß" to "ss" but only "s" too. 07:07:13 actually, it might be "ss" in descriptions and messages, but I don't care enough right now 07:08:20 no ß outside of the main display before translations, and those won't happen before 0.10 at the very least 07:10:41 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 07:11:09 dpeg: any idea why the 20k limit to exp pool? 07:11:54 Linley! 07:12:11 so, we'll have to ask him :) 07:12:46 I know that he was unhappy with victory dancing and wanted to get rid of it "next". 07:13:05 20k because 25k would be just too much 07:15:06 there's no reason to wait for fix to victory dancing before removing it 07:17:46 * galehar 's finger removes the safety and stands nervously on the trigger. 07:20:04 galehar: I like it when people take responsibility :) Fire away. 07:20:35 the crawlish way to shoot yourself in the leg is with an IOOD 07:20:49 so you're safe with a gun 07:20:50 kilobyte: omg, no locale-aware character substitution!!!!1eleven 07:21:13 kilobyte: only a char can be a replacement, not a string? 07:21:19 I've always found it a bit annoying, but though "well, there must be a reason for it". Now that I find that there isn't... 07:21:34 galehar: there might be one and I am just not aware of it 07:21:55 I know that rob (by) tinkered with it, having the Exp Pool limit depend on something like total xp. 07:22:06 well, there's manuals. We can cap them at 20k. 07:22:28 or not. 07:22:41 manuals are a problem unto themselves 07:23:03 I don't think removing the limit would change anything for them. 07:23:12 we'll address manuals with VD anyway 07:24:16 hmm, as a troll, I don't need autofight but autoeat 07:24:54 the only case it really affects manuals is zig runs, i guess 07:25:14 removing the limit there would probably be fairly significant 07:25:44 yes, but in a good way, not? Having to manage the pool is very "meta-gamey" 07:26:29 I'll leave &s to fill your pool to 20k for historical reason :) 07:26:55 (btw, the &s description is completely wrong: "gain 20000 skill points") 07:27:07 yeah - in most places it's pure metagameyness in that it just forces you to back off and victory dance occasionally to prevent wasting xp 07:27:36 in zigs the cap actually does have a gameplay effect since you probably can't use up the xp as fast as you're gaining it 07:28:05 you don't really need the xp if you are able to clear zigs that fast though :P 07:28:11 but i agree that removing the cap sounds fine :P 07:28:32 03hyperelliptical * rcdd4c9d5b62d 10/crawl-ref/source/ (dat/clua/lm_trove.lua dat/des/portals/trove.des itemname.cc): Make troves handle manuals correctly. 07:30:41 I would've thought Linley would make it 19683 anyways. 07:31:24 bhaak: unless we get translations, substitutions can happen only in two cases: 1. an attempt to use a monster glyph your display can't use, 2. watching someone on DGL 07:32:28 ie, if Napkin would watch dpeg's game and send him messages in German... or, someone used his native language in inscription/notes 07:33:07 has anyone reached the overall xp cap? 07:33:17 monster glyphs do matter, messages and inscriptions, not really 07:33:25 ortoslon: most Zig runners 07:33:43 kilobyte: ah 07:34:14 ok, I'm wrong, s/most/multi/ 07:34:25 !log . char=feae 07:34:26 13. KiloByte, XL27 FeAE, T:245072: http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/KiloByte/morgue-KiloByte-20101119-134939.txt 07:34:48 it takes a bunch of zigs, but all of the ubernagas hit the xp cap i assume 07:34:56 oh cool, only 4 07:35:00 oops wrong. I somehow thought this char had only 6M xp 07:35:16 o_O 07:36:15 with xl27 being ~1.3M (depending on species), that would be totally wrong 07:36:35 right, so 9M is a frequent occurence 07:37:47 looked at several 15-runers, 2.5M is typical there 07:38:04 too much xp in the game :) 07:38:17 i wouldn't say people clear 4 zigs in a game frequently :P 07:42:29 power creep is upon us. 07:42:32 Let's nerf! 07:42:37 perhaps we should reduce to one ziggurat, or make prices increase exponentially, but it is not the most urgent change 07:44:15 I have no experience in Zigs, but if people clearing several of them is so common, then I assume that either: "Zigs are too easy" or "They use an overpowered feature". 07:44:52 or: "they use Pan/Abyss scumming to get uber char" 07:45:22 it's also a matter of luck to some point 07:45:48 Yes. I would hate to see ziggurats go completely, but eternal scumming is problematic (before zigs, there was always pan). 07:46:40 I never did Pan/Zig: which of these two creates more interesting situations? 07:47:38 they apply to characters at different power levels 07:48:04 if you can finish Zigs, Pan is not a challenge to you in the slightest 07:48:55 I see... so doing enough Pan makes sure you can conquer the ziggurat :( 07:49:22 This was not intended (or at least not my intention with zigs). I wanted players to have to decide when to leave. 07:49:46 i don't think that's really how it works out 07:49:51 Tell me! 07:50:04 I see... so doing enough Pan makes sure you can conquer the ziggurat :( 07:50:07 "makes sure", not really 07:50:09 in my characters that did multiple zigs at least, i'd visit pan and do zigs as i found them, and often bail out early 07:50:14 03galehar * rc440abad0d1d 10/crawl-ref/source/ (defines.h skills2.cc viewgeom.cc): Don't start the game if terminal is smaller than 80x24. 07:50:15 03galehar * r7bb413f57386 10/crawl-ref/source/ (decks.cc defines.h main.cc output.cc player.cc potion.cc): Remove experience pool limit. 07:50:26 not true really, except in the sense that you can scum pan forever and then do anything 07:50:39 pan scumming isn't how chars get strong enough for zigs in practice 07:50:43 MarvinPA: bailing out is not that safe a choice 07:50:50 they get strong enough to clear zigs by doing partial zigs 07:50:55 kilobyte: sure it is 07:51:00 it's pretty safe with distortion and stasis 07:51:02 I learned to not go to zigs to just "do 10 levels and grab some loot" 07:51:12 i learned to do exactly that :P 07:51:19 !lm * min=xl type=zig.enter 07:51:21 Well, I would really like to leave balancing and nerfing the extended game to those who do it regularly. 07:51:30 because then you get 8 daevas on Zig:4 and splat before you can say "blink" 07:51:53 MarvinPA: you think there is a problem with infinite content as it is currently? 07:52:02 kilobyte: why can't you say blink? if you have 200 HP then they won't kill you that quickly... 07:52:23 especially if you are hasted when you enter the level 07:52:31 does the experience card give a set amount? 07:52:40 wouldn't scaling the difficulty of Pan/Abyss with time spent at least partially address the issue (if done properly)? 07:52:52 36065. [2010-07-21] MarvinPA the Cleaver (L11 DDBe) entered a Ziggurat on turn 15825. (D:6) 07:53:14 you.exp_available += (power_level <= 1 ? power * 50 : HIGH_EXP_POOL); 07:53:15 galehar: yes, that is my proposal. But I'd be happier if someone with actual experience pursued it. 07:53:26 HIGH_EXP_POOL = 20k 07:53:28 galehar: I'd rather put some kind of a cap on skill training 07:53:54 limitting Pan might be good, if we adjust Ziggurats first 07:54:27 you usually don't decide to scum Abyss, it's demonologists who make that call :p 07:54:40 nobody really scums pan for anything except zigs 07:54:46 why does this need to be restricted 07:54:51 elliptic: exactly 07:54:57 yeah, currently you're actually forced to scum pan if you want to visit zigs 07:55:01 elliptic: I am sure that Pan was scummed before ziggurats even existed. 07:55:02 firstly to find them and secondly to get enough gold 07:55:12 dpeg: I'm talking about current behavior 07:55:15 ah 07:55:15 I did 83 pan levels in a game as a noob but only because I didn't knew a rune was irrevocably lost 07:55:32 but if Pan gets harder to the point of insane while you're looking for zigs, power creep solved, right? 07:55:32 I just don't hear of anyone scumming pan for loot/xp 07:55:41 btw, nobody answered my question about which of Pan/zig creates more interesting situations. 07:56:13 galehar: how is people being able to find zigs power creep? I'm confused 07:56:18 people scum pan for zigs, and doing a ton of zigs doesn't affect the normal game at all 07:56:19 it's more a question like Slime vs Tomb 07:56:26 those characters are irrelevant 07:57:24 for the scumming itself though I suggested giving a one-time zig portal item when people were talking about possible zig trophies 07:57:24 zigs are much more potentially dangerous but both are definitely interesting endgame content 07:57:25 almost, but not quite OG17 (ghosts, lack of challenge) 07:57:31 you still have the gold though 07:57:57 OG17: this assumes you are never forced to bail out early 07:58:01 there's no challenge outside of zigs at that point and no one's going to meet a ghost outside of a zig 07:58:01 the idea is that getting a char to max XP and skills shouldn't be forbidden by hard limits, but simply impossible because of insane difficulty 07:58:11 galehar: yes 07:58:14 Why? 07:58:21 I like the idea 07:58:30 Why do you like the idea? 07:58:35 btw, the original concept was that ziggurats go on forever, but would eventually crush anyone... we failed 07:59:14 zigs definitely can throw a challenge even at the most overpowered characters, with late pan lord floors and so on 07:59:16 like maxing your score in a shmup 07:59:31 yes 07:59:32 Well the uberchcars that clear multiple zigs mostly use just a few strategies I think... maybe come up with some monsters / zig levels that challenge those strategies? 07:59:43 And they're not exactly easy even now, I think. 07:59:58 unfortunately those strategies tend to be "kill everything on the screen at once", i'm not sure how you challenge that strategy :P 07:59:59 ekiM: that's why I like DD death knights so much 08:00:06 having some playground for extremely good characters is desirable 08:00:08 oh that is true i guess 08:00:40 there's little strategy that can be used on arenas like Zigs 08:00:51 either you kill everything on the screen at once or you die 08:00:53 and we devs can use it as a playground for testing nerfs 08:00:54 -!- edlothiol has quit [Quit: edlothiol] 08:01:09 hands up, who of the devs is a zig stormer? 08:01:15 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 08:01:25 * MarvinPA raises hand 08:01:53 I did it on one char 08:01:54 Well, Deaths door, controlled blink, controlled blink, apport apport apport, rinse, repeat is an alternate strategy if you just want loot :F 08:01:59 * dpeg awards MarvinPA the Insane Developer badge. 08:02:11 not a single holy level, though 08:02:11 :P 08:02:28 MarvinPA: do you agree that something should be about our unlimited content? 08:03:48 i really like zigs as a challenge for very powerful characters, i think the idea of pan getting harder over time is definitely an interesting one too 08:04:14 stopping this only stops people that enjoy repeated zigs etc from having fun 08:04:19 there's no problem addressed by it 08:04:39 well, you seem like the most qualified to address it :) (although, this isn't on today's agenda) 08:04:57 i don't see why zigs wouldn't still be fun if doing them got more challenging as you did more 08:05:07 MarvinPA: would you like to take a mental parentship over this realm... it is not urgent, there's no need for nerfs by 0.9 (or any other release). Just someone building ideas and carrying the torch. 08:05:18 in fact doing zigs on my tornado character when the spell was first added wasn't very fun at all because they were so easy :P 08:05:40 * kilobyte enjoys the idea of carrying a torch near buildings. 08:05:47 hehe 08:05:53 sure, i'd be glad to have a think about it :) 08:05:56 tornado's a problem because it makes zigs trivial for characters that aren't otherwise powerful enough to handle them 08:05:58 cool 08:06:01 so that does throw things out of whack 08:06:04 but tornado 08:06:19 MarvinPA: bugs with haste made it many times as powerful as intended :( 08:06:34 aha yeah, that too 08:07:06 conveniently i just started a DrAE so maybe i'll see what it's like with the most recent nerf :P 08:07:30 it's still problematic even after all nerfs since if you can use _both_ firestorm and tornado, tornado's far lesser damage/time doesn't matter 08:07:37 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 08:07:41 from the forum: "Also, why does going back to Xom all the time make me feel like a woman going back to her abusive alcoholic husband?" 08:08:05 MarvinPA: pure Air probably breaks it again :( 08:08:21 since if you focus you can get it way too early 08:08:49 -!- elliptic has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:08:54 an endgame spell is broken if you can use it before endgame 08:09:07 make it L10 08:09:16 <3 08:09:23 not to harp on this but could 3535 be addressed? Local crawl's been unplayable for two weeks now 08:09:29 ignoring hjkl 08:09:34 oh one idea i had to address some of the scumminess of finding zigs in pan was to announce them when you enter the level but maybe have them timed with a very harsh timer, or guarded by particularly nasty vaults or something 08:10:04 but with lower or no gold cost to enter if you can get to them 08:10:46 not particularly thought it through yet but something like that might be nice 08:10:51 OG17: I was quite surprised with this bug. I thought windows people play tiles and console people play online. Who the hell plays local console under windows? 08:11:15 Morning 08:11:15 windows devs who compile and test things locally! :( 08:11:39 ah yeah. When I was a new dev, I was under windows too... 08:11:57 fun thing: this bug is in a part of code I'm going to overhaul next 08:12:18 cool. We now have a reason not to fix it :) 08:12:26 yeah! :) 08:13:32 I think I refuse to go back to windows since developing on it is a huge pain. 08:13:35 MarvinPA: if you want to be cool, set up a wiki page to collect ideas over time 08:13:44 galehar: about 80x24: in some cases PuTTY makes it 78x24 instead 08:13:51 dpeg, ideas are overrated, we want a monopoly on such a thing. 08:13:57 Cryp71c: we had a time when none of the active devs was using windows. Made for painful release :) 08:13:57 I didn't think msysgit was that bad.. 08:13:58 -!- ortoslon has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:14:03 dpeg: sounds good, i'll dump some of my ideas there 08:14:17 -!- ortoslon has joined ##crawl-dev 08:14:28 Cryp71c: ideas pooled among devs, of course, not mere mortals 08:14:28 you explicitely tell it to use 80x24, it gives 78x24 instead. I think it can happen in the default config in some cases too. 08:14:41 Keskitalo, its not THAT bad, its just not perfect. 08:15:12 msysgit seems good to me but i have nothing to compare it to, either :P 08:15:28 if there were a dev that was asking between using a current windows install and mysysgit or reinstalling to linux, I'd have them do the latter :P 08:16:23 kilobyte: but the skill menu needs 80 columns. It has for a while, and we didn't had any report. 08:16:30 Is this issue common? 08:17:29 galehar, in cases where putty drops to 78x24, connection to the server has failed (in my experience previously) reporting that the console window is too small. 08:17:40 galehar: we reduced it to 78 recently 08:17:46 so...nevermind :) 08:18:39 kilobyte: what? I just edited the code of the skill menu, the prerequisite was still 80x24. 08:19:58 hrm. I might be confused then, but I'd swear there was a change to that tune. 08:20:20 I don't see why we should put up with Windows corrupted standards. 80x24 is a very reasonable default. 08:20:42 I agree. 08:21:08 * galehar hands kilobyte a potion of healing. 08:25:14 galehar: need_save is set at all time when there's an actual game in progress 08:25:36 it's cleared during death sequence and set when starting/loading a game 08:26:36 yes, but I meant in this context. Isn't crawl_view_geometry::init_geometry only called at the beginning of the game? 08:27:25 or if it's called on resize, then we can print a message instead of dying. 08:29:20 galehar: commit 8fd2f8386754 08:29:52 a resize shuts down the whole display system then reinitializes it from scratch 08:30:25 even worse, there's some redundant interaction with sighup handler set up by newer ncurses 08:31:15 kilobyte: I changed it back to 80 at a latter time. 08:31:52 what's the pick-axe command to find what commit changed a line? 08:32:35 not sure, I never learned it and just repeatedly check git blame 123456^ -- file.cc 08:33:25 120f289e moves it back to 80 but there's no message why 08:33:57 I can't find the bug report on Mantis, lemme search IRC logs 08:37:26 120f289e brings back the hint/tutorial help message for the skill menu. It needs full width to display properly. 08:47:41 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:55:51 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 09:06:58 -!- frogfrog has joined ##crawl-dev 09:14:46 -!- Kurper has joined ##crawl-dev 09:22:24 -!- Kurper has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:24:15 03dolorous * r1df96b0abe39 10/crawl-ref/source/godabil.cc: Comment fix. 09:24:53 dpeg: Why did you !tell me about Ero doing lava orcs? :P 09:26:59 greensnark: you expressed hope in sanity -- foolishly -- by assuming it'd be a joke :) 09:27:24 It is a joke, but apparently a joke that needs to be coded up :P 09:27:45 I tried to convince them that they need to put their ideas on the wiki. 09:28:13 I am not sure the species can make it into the game, and it will prevent a lot of hard feelings if we can discuss in advance. 09:28:16 03galehar * r3620f568833c 10/crawl-ref/source/initfile.cc: Fix butchering not interrupted when a monster comes into view. 09:29:20 -!- upsy has joined ##crawl-dev 09:30:07 -!- frogfrog has quit [Quit: Page closed] 09:34:14 03dpeg * r3631a5a77d22 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/entry/entry_large.des: Better fix for circular labyrinth entry vault. 09:36:08 dpeg: could you look the spider nests in #3555? (I'd like to see my clinging code put to use) 09:36:18 galehar: the new ones? 09:36:31 yes 09:36:33 Will do. jpeg is coming over tonight, but I can try to do it this weekend. 09:36:48 thanks. 09:46:32 -!- aze5 has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:46:49 -!- casmith_789 has joined ##crawl-dev 09:47:53 -!- casmith789 has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:52:10 -!- edlothiol has quit [Quit: edlothiol] 09:53:04 Were monster bleed effects ever implemented for monsters attacking players? 09:56:03 Just looking through the baileys... they are so uneven :) 09:58:38 The one with an orc knights and islands (where there are small niche's to hide in north and south of the entrance) with lots of throwing stuff and no great route to get to them safely is the most aggrivating, from my experience several months ago. 09:59:05 You essentially need a ranged confusion spell or shield to withstand the ranged pummeling 10:01:10 -!- casmith_789 is now known as casmith789 10:04:36 Cryp71c: not true, I did that one on a melee character 10:05:12 Its not undoable, its just quite hard, imo. 10:05:51 does anyone know if the "too close now for your liking." message bug happens only with already seen monsters or also with new ones? 10:06:35 children now, back later 10:07:07 TGWi: hey, i had a big duh moment, there are two obvious other effects triggers: adjacent to one enemy, adjacent to multiple enemies 10:11:21 -!- xyblor_ is now known as xyblor 10:12:14 -!- xyblor has left ##crawl-dev 10:14:36 -!- galehar has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:21:28 I don't see any coding conventions for commenting functions, is there any opposition to me commenting methods in the @param paramter_name / @return ? 10:21:56 Where you list a full desc for the method, any params it takes and relevant commentary for them, etc. 10:24:59 no, that's preferred 10:26:46 K I havn't seen any commentary like that, I didn't know if that was due to some longstanding precedent. 10:28:47 Cryp71c: a longstanding precedent of people not commenting their code well 10:29:31 Eronarn, while we're on precedents, :( to the 80-chars per line. I know it has good intentions, but its also hell for formatting and good-looking, maintainable code. 10:31:56 Ring of sustain abilities doesn't autoidentify (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3612) by minmay 10:33:03 Cryp71c: disagree; if your code goes over 80 characters per line it's hard to read anyways 10:33:36 humans suck at reading wide columns of text 10:38:37 Eronarn, yesterday we concluded that "ATK_ATTEMPTED" would be a "we're about to attack, but we don't know if we're going to hit, be blocked, or miss, yet" correct? 10:38:54 yeah 10:39:00 to intercept attacks before anything is rolled 10:48:17 03j-p-e-g * rbedf507efdbd 10/crawl-ref/source/ (travel.cc travel.h): Encase some Tiles-only methods in #ifdefs. 10:52:24 Xom should have a chance (inverse on the tension of the monster) to revive a non-unique monster when its killed. 10:54:06 Eronarn, how significant is the overhead of a method call in C++? Should we encourage basic checks for effects in the attack_respond_to_phase before calling the effect method(s) or blindly make calls to effect method(s) and let them make the checks within the functions themselves? 10:54:36 The latter is cleaner looking but might involve lots of unnecessary overhead in wasted function calls. 10:55:09 Cryp71c: you can't predict what a function will need to know to operate 10:55:15 The former, however, would likely result in checking to see if the current attack meets the criteria of an effect and then making that same (or a very similar) check AGAIN once you're inside the method itself. 10:55:35 that can be valid though 10:55:42 for example, you have to be alive for the attack to proceed 10:55:54 but you also have to be alive to be hit by spikes, if before being hit by spikes, you were hit by the enemy being wrapped in flames 10:55:58 Eronarn, yeah but that's a universal check that can be made for an entire phase. 10:56:21 That sort of check should definitely be in the respond_to_phase method. 10:57:32 But say if we're in ATK_DODGED and coding for spiny, we could blindly call checkSpiny() which checks for the mutation on the defender and all that, OR we can say if(defender->isSpiny()) checkSpiny(); 10:58:50 i think you've overestimating the number of checks that will need to be made 10:59:04 it's just going to be stuff like 'are they still alive' 'are they subject to this kind of damage' 10:59:23 there may be overlap, but it's far neater than trying to stick that in a switch statement 10:59:39 and this will be a *tiny* amount of code compared to many things in crawl 11:05:00 Eronarn, so the paradigm should be to call the effect code blindly or make at least basic checks before calling effect code? 11:05:29 s/effect code blindly/effect code blindly (and let it do the checks) 11:16:03 Cryp71c: well, i'd do it like this: at the *end* of each phase, recalculate whether the attack is valid 11:16:29 if i hit someone, and they're on fire and acid-covered and teleport things that hit them, i should get hit by both and also teleported 11:16:54 not just the next phase of responses, but the entire attack, should be aborted once i'm teleported though 11:17:33 would you find it helpful if i went through fight.cc and commented where i'd check for stuff? 11:18:00 (or if there's other stuff I can do that would be more helpful, feel free to ask, I have some time until this weekend) 11:21:48 oh, drat, i never set up a wiki template for species apparently 11:22:12 Single square exclusion on stairs do not show on the X screen (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3613) by casmith789 11:26:19 Eronarn, yeah that might be helpful. Regarding the specific question I'm asking though, I'm just trying to see if the code should appear like this: http://pastebin.com/kWa3pjPX OR like this : http://pastebin.com/KtVRtiXJ 11:27:13 Eronarn, the first one keeps the code clean, but results in some unnecessary calls (since the code might get into the spiny stuff, check to make sure the conditions are right (attacker is still alive, defender is spiny), find that the conditions are not right and immediately exit. 11:27:46 Cryp71c: oh, yeah, feel free to do stuff like isSpiny() there 11:27:54 as just a first pass, 'could this even be applicable at all' 11:28:01 Eronarn, the second one makes basic checks and prevents some (but not necessarily all) unnecessary function calls, however..the do_spiny() method may also check those basic conditions WITHIN the function itself, so we're checking those conditions twice. 11:28:06 just don't stick in every check inside the switch statement or it'll get monstrously large 11:28:23 i'll edit with what it might look like - 11:28:39 Eronarn, k, you want to make those comments and whatnot in my branch? 11:28:49 Eronarn, let me commit what I have, one minute. 11:29:13 Cryp71c: is it on github or something? i don't have commit access 11:29:48