00:16:01 -!- valrus_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:49:30 -!- paxed has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:53:22 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 01:06:48 -!- casmith789 has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:07:17 -!- casmith789 has joined ##crawl-dev 01:17:01 -!- monqy has quit [Quit: hello] 02:00:47 -!- ZChris13 has quit [Quit: Page closed] 02:16:59 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 02:17:17 -!- evilmike has quit [] 02:19:54 -!- Textmode has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:24:41 -!- Neovangl1st has joined ##crawl-dev 02:25:10 -!- Neovanglist has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:37:29 dazzle (L1 MDHe) ASSERT(y >= 1 && y <= sz.y) in 'libutil.cc' at line 801 failed. (D:1) 02:37:33 dazzle (L1 MDHe) ASSERT(y >= 1 && y <= sz.y) in 'libutil.cc' at line 801 failed. (D:1) 02:37:35 dazzle (L1 MDHe) ASSERT(y >= 1 && y <= sz.y) in 'libutil.cc' at line 801 failed. (D:1) 02:37:37 dazzle (L1 MDHe) ASSERT(y >= 1 && y <= sz.y) in 'libutil.cc' at line 801 failed. (D:1) 02:37:40 dazzle (L1 MDHe) ASSERT(y >= 1 && y <= sz.y) in 'libutil.cc' at line 801 failed. (D:1) 02:37:43 dazzle (L1 MDHe) ASSERT(y >= 1 && y <= sz.y) in 'libutil.cc' at line 801 failed. (D:1) 02:57:42 When in doubt, retry half a dozen times :D 03:04:51 our description code could be made a lot smarter 03:05:04 this crash is Ely's desc not fitting on the screen 03:06:02 this is also why due split quotes to a next screen, making them look ridiculous if the item has a single-line description and a two-line quote, each on a separate screen, on a normal size terminal 03:07:36 (not that I like to touch anything related to user interface when there others around :p) 03:08:39 thus I'm waiting to see if someone steps up to sanitize that part... if not, we'll put a workaround for Ely 03:14:44 moin! 03:14:44 Napkin: You have 7 messages. Use !messages to read them. 03:14:52 pfff.. riiight 03:14:59 !help messages 03:15:00 !messages: (1/7) due said (7w 3d 1h 5m 57s ago): http://crawl.develz.org/info/index.php?q=gnoll+sergeant !!! Vault-defined monsters in Gretell, and their tiles too! 03:15:05 lol 03:15:41 anyone seen the most detailed crash bug-report ever from simonj? 03:15:52 vault-defining anything but the name = meh 03:16:18 if the webform didn't ask for version/cao/cdo/os if would just have been "it crashes" 03:16:20 (or weapon/armour, that works well too) 03:16:29 what's up, kilobyte? 03:16:53 Don't you have a shiny Tuesday morning, too? ;) 03:17:04 heh, indeed a great report 03:17:48 just as bad as any other day these days... 03:18:21 MarvinPA said (4h 28m 58s ago): a lot of people seem to have crashed on cdo and can't get back into their games, with the error "Another game is already in progress using this save! Hit any key to exit..." 03:18:35 it's connected to this simonj crash 03:18:38 somehow... 03:18:41 weird shit 03:18:44 !coffee kilobyte 03:18:44 * Henzell hands kilobyte a mug of irish coffee, brewed by Trog. 03:20:10 uhm, the only time Crawl is supposed to open (and lock) any save other than yours is when loading the save browser, which is not used on CDO 03:21:14 yesterday eith told me, that everybodies game was hanging 03:21:29 simonj's game had 99%.. and i needed to kill it with -9 03:21:40 then 3 more crash messages showed up here 03:21:50 and everything supposedly went back to normal 03:22:15 23:42 < eith> Napkin: anything wrong with cdo? it seems to have hung for everyone 03:22:19 23:44 < Napkin> not really.. one guy (simonj) has a 99% cpu usage process though 03:22:22 23:44 <+ Mu_> from looking at his game it seems he crashed and is stuck at 'writing crash info' 03:22:26 23:44 < Gretell> polystyrus (L1 NaCr) (D:2) 03:22:26 23:44 < Gretell> ion (L3 NaGl) (D:2) 03:22:26 23:45 < Napkin> wow, needed a -9 kill 03:22:33 --- 03:23:01 it seems, that at least the 2 crashes from polystyrus and ion were hanging 03:23:17 !lm ion type=crash -log 03:23:17 1. ion, XL3 NaGl, T:1576 (milestone): http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/ion/crash-ion-20110307-224449.txt 03:23:18 only able to write their crash-info after I killed simonj's game 03:24:12 maybe simonj's crash was blocking access to milestones or logfile? 03:24:21 /bin/crawl-svn-273693b(_Z9lock_fileibb+0x38) [0x915c18]: lock_file(int, bool, bool) 03:24:24 /bin/crawl-svn-273693b(_Z7lk_openPKcRKSs+0x37) [0x5e1617]: lk_open(char const*, std::string const&) 03:24:27 /bin/crawl-svn-273693b(_Z14mark_milestoneRKSsS0_bl+0x13b) [0x63844b]: mark_milestone(std::string const&, std::string const&, bool, long) 03:24:30 /bin/crawl-svn-273693b(_Z11monster_dieP7monster11killer_typeibbb+0x1342) [0x7ada82]: monster_die(monster*, killer_type, int, bool, bool, bool) 03:24:33 yeah, that's it 03:25:25 i could copy simonj's game 03:25:43 it seems, s/he tried to load the game again later and there was the same problem 03:26:11 at around 6: 03:26:12 05:59 < murphy_slaw> cdo admin in the house? 03:26:12 06:00 < ZChris13> That would be Napkin. 03:26:12 06:00 < ZChris13> I think 03:26:14 06:00 < Gretell> Jordan7hm (L27 SpBe) (Dis:7) 03:26:17 06:00 < Gretell> tartakower (L5 MuFi) (D:3) 03:26:19 06:00 < Gretell> AlphaQ (L15 MDBe) (D:15) 03:26:22 --- 03:28:33 now that's pretty interesting 03:29:19 I'd think anything related to locking files would be never related to any data stored in a game... just the in-memory process state 03:30:31 uuuh, now I need a coffee before I can understand that techno sentence of yours ;) 03:30:35 !coffee 03:30:35 * Henzell hands Napkin a pot of café au lait, brewed by Mnoleg. 03:31:30 -!- Kurper has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:32:27 I mean, I'd never suspect a file locking bug to be reproducible by playing from the same save while not happening for anyone else 03:34:06 I removed his save - and he did a backup and attached it earlier to his bug-report 03:35:15 so.. the crash was after locking the file and before unlocking it again? 03:35:32 well.. the second crash.. like 2 crashes at once? :D 03:38:51 -!- ekiM has joined ##crawl-dev 03:39:49 -!- ekiM has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:40:09 @whereis Napkin 03:40:09 Napkin the Blademaster (L27 KoAs), a worshipper of Kikubaaqudgha, saved on Lair:1 on 2011-03-08 after 157999 turns. 03:40:21 -!- ekiM has joined ##crawl-dev 03:46:06 \o/ 03:46:13 moin Eino :) 03:46:38 I am going to win that little bastard today! :D 03:47:36 Only missing resist mutation.. but the way to Tomb 2 forced me through a Zot trap, which gave me red glow, which gave me shouting, frail (grrr!), but also resist mutations 1 :D 03:48:08 I have rC+++, rF+++, rN+++ - maybe I should do some hells? 03:51:26 Have you been to Pan? People tend to say it's easier than the Hells. 03:51:53 I watched a bit of your Tomb campaign, using Kiku's Delivery Service was pretty cool. :) 03:52:23 I think I've died once in a Hell, and once in Pan.. Hells are definitely more intense (and fun)! 03:52:53 I think I've always done Hells first.. :P 03:53:06 Keskitalo: not until it starts to go south: in Hells, any troubles are very short-term, when you shake off that five fiends you can immediately return to safety 03:54:23 yeah, first time I played Kiku - awesome :) 03:54:34 haven't yet used his torment ability though 03:55:06 all big enemies, which made me sweat, where torment resistant according to Gretell 03:55:11 *were 03:55:54 been playing DDNe previously.. but wanted a char that heals and starts out with a weapon skill 03:56:29 I've never been to Pan - absolutely no clue how to play it 03:57:06 I'm a bit worried, because I have like.. only 5 more heal wounds (potions & wand) and out of hasting means 03:59:15 yeah.. end-game resistances are very uniform, which is bad 03:59:19 uhm, a DDNe is a terrible char to try Hells or Pan for the first time 03:59:57 Zot might have some targets for torment.. but I think all of those are better dealt with something else 04:00:27 and you need to be standing on a corpse 04:01:17 it might be useful to allow to use a corpse from inventory 04:01:44 oh - i expected to need to wear the corpse in my hand 04:01:50 *wield 04:02:15 anyways, first time kiku and it's great 04:03:16 Kiku is cool, I did my DSSu allruner with Kiku. 04:03:27 his necromancy book and the dagger of electrocution (found early) were _the_ reasons to survive, I believe 04:03:28 Napkin: yeah, this is one of my reasons to do that 04:04:03 torment protection is a major thing 04:04:08 and - first time I managed to enter Tomb 3 04:04:21 but.. piety went down too quickly - couldn't finish it 04:04:27 Kiku is a bit funny though, in that you get early goodies, you get midgame goodies, you can do post-endgame ... and the god is generally powerful. 04:04:35 !lm Napkin type=rune s=rune 04:04:35 46 milestones for Napkin (type=rune): 15x serpentine, 13x decaying, 9x silver, 6x barnacled, 2x abyssal, 1x slimy 04:04:49 serpentine, barnacled & silver 04:05:13 maybe I should have focussed a bit more on summoning.. since I learned it with Recall already 04:05:23 Hey, pointless tweaked Slime layouts, you might want to take a peek, I recall you hated the changes. 04:05:41 Napkin: Haunt is insanely good, try it before nerfing ;) 04:05:47 oh? I hated? don't think so 04:05:56 Maybe it was everyone else :P 04:06:05 @whereis Napkin 04:06:05 Napkin the Blademaster (L27 KoAs), a worshipper of Kikubaaqudgha, saved on Lair:1 on 2011-03-08 after 157999 turns. 04:06:05 generally don't like corrosion, of course - and the wands did too much damage in 0.7 04:06:13 I mean the earlier changes (0.7), not pointless's 04:06:19 hrm, @whereis doesn't show version 04:06:28 playing Trunk 04:06:40 got infected and.. like always.. can't let go ;> 04:06:44 release already! :D 04:07:11 release manager already! 04:07:37 still quite a bit to do before it makes sense to freeze 04:08:07 and instead of tying the knots I do useful but non-vital stuff like cloud targetting... 04:08:41 some draconian corroded my precious cloak of preservation 04:08:58 speaking of which... there are ways to abuse clouds for great out of LOS kills 04:09:13 up to 10 squares out of range 04:09:19 not sure i should do slime.. would probably make me furious again.. since helmet, shield and cloak are not immune to corrosion 04:10:31 btw.. i consider it a but, that the cloak of preservation is not immune to corrosion 04:10:32 do you have inferior replacements and a means of rCorr? 04:10:35 *a bug 04:11:21 only cloak of preservation - found 8 bucklers in total and a few helms.. 04:11:24 could work 04:11:31 I'd say most real shielding is not immune to what they're made to protect from 04:12:34 btw - acid resistance is ". . ." now? 04:12:52 like real shields... modern police shields might fare relatively well against thrown bottles from a crowd, but against actual medieval weapons, shields lasted pretty much a single battle -- usually even not that long 04:12:53 and warding is ". ."? 04:13:11 or, ablative shields on spaceships 04:13:14 re 04:14:59 Zaba: meow? 04:15:05 moin Zaba 04:16:07 i see that differently, kilobyte - if you build a spaceship with shield generator to protect the whole ship, of course you make sure the shield generator is protected best 04:17:01 ;) 04:17:08 but ok - giving up 04:17:26 will bring it up again next year though ;-P 04:17:45 so the amulet can be thought of a shield generator :p 04:18:44 nooooooo! 04:18:46 :-P 04:20:35 would it be a problem if clouds spells never spawn anything out of LOS? 04:21:00 this might need some thematic wiggling -- but then, it is magic in the first place 04:25:02 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 04:31:52 omg.. what a mean slime 04:32:21 1. slime level: 1 stairs down. 2. slime level: 1 escape hatch down 04:33:23 nah.. that's too dangerous.. good bye, slime! 04:35:28 -!- jpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 04:35:53 "Crazy Yiuf forever"? Is that our new battle cry? 04:36:40 moin jpeg 04:36:53 hi 04:37:05 I see you're experiencing nasty lockfile trouble :D 04:37:30 simonj's game blocked CDO because it kept running at 99% and keep the milestones file locked 04:37:42 i think kilobyte is looking into it already, though 04:37:49 yeah :D 04:38:01 not actually, got distracted then started doing something else 04:38:07 the crash mentions clouds, which is up kb's alley anyway 04:38:37 OT question, but can anyone explain the term "game engine" to me? 04:39:20 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:40:00 uhm, do we have any actual way to reproduce it? 04:40:04 especially one with clouds 04:40:21 all I got was the assert on loading 04:40:23 hi jpeg. like a programming library, only for games. you could say that crawl is "crawl game engine + content" 04:40:37 ... which I rather suspect is a result of the crash 04:40:55 bhaak: yes, but what part of Crawl is the engine (as opposed to the content) 04:40:59 really confused here 04:41:10 everything in dat isn't part of the engine :) 04:41:13 wikipedia mentioned physics engines and 3D engines and stuff 04:41:47 yeah, for commercial 3D stuff. but in crawl you don't have a clear line as you don't have a generic game engine 04:41:50 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 04:42:18 I guess if we were to strip anything specific to Crawl (monsters and gameplay and stuff), that would leave the core engine 04:42:31 (except that Crawl's code isn't clearly divided that way) 04:42:37 yes, exactly 04:43:08 still confused 04:43:54 so that's handling saves and possibly the startup menu and ... yeah 04:44:35 also tiles and tty stuff. mostly everything that's not game mechanic specific 04:45:14 database handling, maybe even translating the map syntax 04:45:19 well, there is a gray area if you consider stuff like resistance and abilities 04:45:31 bhaak: thanks, this is really helping 04:45:59 resistance and abilities? you mean the screen and menus? 04:46:07 no, the actual data structures 04:46:57 they are certainly part of crawl, but OTOH they are rather generic 04:47:10 I can't really see anyone taking those to build a new game 04:47:21 though that might be a testament to the quality of the code :) 04:47:25 :) 04:48:07 bhaak: how's nethack going? NH-de out yet? 04:48:36 got the crash, it's a forest fire which spread to a tree on the map border -- but somehow, the tree under the buggy cloud is intact 04:48:49 * bhaak pretends he didn't hear anything 04:48:56 unnethack got autoexplore! 04:49:18 bhaak: lack of an answer is an answer in itself ;) 04:49:25 bhaak: and yeah, I heard 04:49:36 however, I never felt that NH needed autoexplore 04:49:51 the levels are small and regular enough that exploration doesn't feel like a chore 04:49:54 yeah, the map is pretty tiny 04:50:07 interlevel travel, though... 04:50:08 except in labyrinths, but that's a problem of its own 04:50:14 kilobyte: exactly 04:50:19 * jpeg nudges bhaak 04:50:49 almost like facebook in here 04:51:02 kilobyte: we might have special code to prevent destruction of map border trees 04:51:41 i was constantly running around in nh with the Run command. it's really annoying that it stops so frequently. autoexplore might not be needed, but it certainly is helpful 04:52:06 as long as it doesn't walk you into lava :-) (early bug someone encountered) 04:52:20 I always had fun exploring the levels and it wasn't a problem because there's the run command 04:52:25 running into lava? ouch! 04:53:06 on the other hand, it fits the game pretty well 04:53:15 it's your own fault you didn't interrupt exploration in time :) 04:53:22 :p 04:58:22 interrupting exploration is pretty hard for player ATM 04:58:37 considering that it is impossible with the version on the server :) 04:58:57 bhaak: sorry, put it on the "bad ideas" list :) 04:59:22 you've also reduced the number of labyrinths, right? 04:59:37 that strikes me as more important 05:00:41 yes, currently there are only 3 real labyrinths left. 2 of those will vanish sooner or later so only the level with the vibrating square will be left as one large labyrinth 05:01:16 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 05:02:28 bhaak: you're getting rid of the pre-castle minotaur? Nooo! 05:04:48 Noooooo! 05:05:25 It won't be Nethack anymore, it'll be cheese cake. 05:06:34 jpeg: pre-castle minotaur? there's a titan on the castle but minotaurs are only in labyrinths which may but rarely do are generated between medusa and the castle 05:08:26 I thought the pre-castle lab was guaranteed, what with the castle being surrounded with a maze border 05:10:23 oh, I had it wrong way around: "Levels between Medusa's island and the Castle have a 4/5 chance of being mazes" 05:10:56 but there's also the possibility that medusa is just above the castle 05:11:24 ah, that sounds more like it - imho, one of them is completely sufficient, though - I agree with you on that count :) 05:12:05 A single maze pre-Castle is much more meaningful than a billion mazes past Castle. 05:13:19 in unnethack between medusa and the castle, there's no laybrinth but mines-like level with lava 05:13:41 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 05:13:57 @whereis simonj 05:13:57 simonj the Destroyer (L18 DrWz), a worshipper of Ashenzari, saved on Swamp:4 on 2011-03-07 after 49795 turns. 05:14:00 in that case, yeah I got rid of the pre-castle minotaur 05:14:22 Napkin: did you move that save away? It can be put back (after recompiling, of course). 05:14:31 03kilobyte * rc1be1ae0a4ca 10/crawl-ref/source/ (tag-version.h tags.cc): A shim to recover saves with forest fires out of bounds. 05:14:38 I moved it away, yes 05:14:43 03kilobyte * r34244263d37d 10/crawl-ref/source/cloud.cc: Don't place steam near fire out of bounds. 05:14:50 recompile and move save back? 05:15:02 kilobyte: wow, great work! 05:15:08 yeah, should work now 05:15:13 roger 05:15:20 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 05:15:27 actually, I was wrong about it being forest fire -- any fire would cause that 05:15:43 I've got a question on low-int restrictions 05:15:44 swamp trees now count as "watery" and thus can produce steam when warmed 05:15:57 Dnice 05:16:05 jpeg: yes? 05:16:40 Currently, if you put on a cursed ring of -Int, you can't remove it again with ?RC 05:16:52 because you can't read in the cooldown period 05:17:13 (there's a BR somewhere that !brilliance times out before that, even) 05:17:35 the cooldown period is the source of a pile of bug reports 05:17:47 (also, you're not prompted before knowingly putting on an item that put a stat below zero, which is a regression) 05:17:58 oh, nasty 05:18:15 kilobyte: but it doesn't appear to be a problem for Dex or Str 05:18:46 jpeg: people complain that "their carrying capacity didn't update" 05:18:51 being unable to read scrolls while "brainless" is really flavourful 05:19:29 but maybe a similar effect could be achieved by introducing a read delay (i.e. it takes you 5 turns to finish reading that scroll of blinking) 05:19:40 or something similar to the blurry vision mutation 05:20:08 otoh, that might just introduce interface screw 05:20:13 Unstable branch on CDO updated to: 0.8.0-a0-5627-g3424426 (32) 05:21:05 jpeg: no, that sounds very good 05:21:21 just have people read this scroll again and again 05:21:28 (a chance of 20% will be fine) 05:21:39 as in, during the actual Int<=0 time or during recovery? 05:21:51 dpeg: got it at 1/5 right now :) 05:22:05 kilobyte: that's one of the things I'm unsure about 05:22:34 during Int<0 will be fine 05:22:50 you think the cooldown itself is bad enough? 05:23:59 what does it do for Int? 05:24:04 there's also a tiles issue right now: you can mouseclick-read books (though not memorise from them) while Brainless 05:24:26 dpeg: prevent reading scrolls/books, probably spellcasting too 05:24:48 jpeg: yes, that's good enough 05:25:00 'kay 05:25:46 reading is just looking at description, though 05:25:58 yes, only flavour 05:26:28 it's also about identifying books 05:26:57 oh - "found a gateway to hell" in Tartarus? is that a secondary escape hatch? 05:27:27 Manuals also work 05:28:10 jpeg: but shouldn't 05:28:31 dpeg: right, that's the bug 05:28:41 Napkin: yeah, that's silly... you _are_ in Hell already 05:30:21 i expected to hand in the middle of the hell again, but was treated as if I left via stairs up 05:31:46 *expected to land 05:31:47 going back doesn't put you where you entered from like other portals do, too 05:31:48 no 05:31:48 i think you misunderstand me 05:33:26 well, maybe not 05:33:28 anyways, leaving tartarus via stairs always places me at the entrance to tartarus again 05:34:09 which also happened when leaving tartarus via "entrance to hell" gate 05:39:27 you found a real gateway to hell in tar? I guess that shouldn't happen 05:39:28 ouch.. abyss? 05:39:28 actually quite a few, Zaba 05:39:29 hmm 05:39:29 -!- murphy_slaw has left ##crawl-dev 05:39:29 -!- Ashenzari has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:40:08 -!- Ashenzari has joined ##crawl-dev 05:40:08 -!- The topic of ##crawl-dev is: Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki | Long stuff to pastebin.ca please | Immortal Warwalrus and Crazy Yiuf forever. 05:40:10 but it's been a while since I've looked at the code, so I have forgotten that :P 05:42:38 -!- jpeg has quit [] 05:43:41 (and I've never been in hells in a non-wizmode game, so...) 05:47:54 dpeg, Zaba: what do you think about restricting Freezing/Poisonous Cloud spells to never spill out of LOS? That would reduce realism but prevent abuse. 05:48:00 is the level of abuse really high enough for that to be an issue? 05:48:07 if you block a part of a corridor (with another cast or, preferably, with a lesser cloud), you can hit things 10 squares out of range 05:48:34 I don't really like such a restriction, as I generally don't like it when things are player-centered in such ways 05:49:16 can't the range of those spells be reduced? 05:49:41 it's not about the initial range, it's more about the way they spread 05:53:11 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 06:01:00 -!- Ashenzari has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:02:08 -!- Ashenzari has joined ##crawl-dev 06:02:08 -!- The topic of ##crawl-dev is: Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki | Long stuff to pastebin.ca please | Immortal Warwalrus and Crazy Yiuf forever. 06:06:51 lol - now that was bad timing 06:07:02 a skeletal warrior made zombies of _my_ kiku corpses :D 06:08:04 did you get golden dragons and titans? 06:08:15 luckily not this time :D 06:12:38 hmm.. do i really need to search for secret doors in T7? :( 06:16:03 -!- Keskitalo has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 06:17:34 beh, you need to dig not only for optional loot, but also for the rune itself 06:17:46 seriously? 06:17:50 not to mention the level being a massive spoiler-fest 06:18:05 what other choice is there? 06:18:23 just got cast back to the abyss.. but will try without first 06:19:53 even worse, you may have to search for secret doors at fixed places along a long wall 06:22:06 -!- Keskitalo has joined ##crawl-dev 06:27:30 s//+/ as a quick fix? 06:31:16 might be a good idea 06:31:32 gogogo, i'll compile again quickly ;) 06:31:39 one of Crypt ends is a massive spoiler end too 06:31:59 no way, even if we change this, the level in your game won't be regenerated 06:32:04 what do you mean with spoiler end? that people lookup the plain-text map in the source? 06:32:21 yeah :( 06:32:25 at least I do 06:33:55 -!- nottwo_ has quit [*.net *.split] 06:37:42 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 06:37:59 there's nothing wrong with my maps 06:39:22 -!- nottwo_ has joined ##crawl-dev 06:39:48 if you can't bear to leave crypt without obsessively seeking out every last piece of loot that's your problem 06:40:58 having to source-dive to find most of the stuff -- even including the rune! -- something is really wrong 06:41:29 in fact, source diving giving you any non-negligible advantage at all is a bug 06:42:35 kilobyte: I am fine with restricting the cloud spells. We don't need to do it now, but there will be a time when players are taught how to abuse them. And then we'll have to do it anyway. 06:42:48 there is no way the rune's location isn't obvious 06:42:53 Tartarus7 is called crypt? 06:44:10 i did the tar and crypt maps that have secret doors 06:44:30 well, crypt is way different though 06:44:34 people have time to search 06:45:07 having to search a number of spots along the walls is not obvious 06:45:43 yes it is, it's a giant structure with a half corridor open and nothing inside it 06:45:44 I believe that secret doors can be useful... if you're under pressure. 06:47:06 you then have to stick there waiting... and the walls inside are far worse 06:47:25 how are they worse, the corridors get smaller 06:47:42 especially that the secret doors can be not at the ends of corridors but also at unobvious fixed places 06:47:55 -!- ais523 has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:48:11 if you think secret doors should be both deterministic and obvious then it defeats the point of having secret doors in the first place 06:48:30 why not remove them from the game instead of complaining about the few maps that use them in an interesting way 06:48:54 like that 'h' three squares beyond the D 06:49:38 I don't see how the secret doors in question add much to that particular map 06:49:46 speaking of 'interesting' 06:50:17 Mu_: I once made a set of ten Elf:7 maps, dealing around secrets (not just doors). Removed when the complaining took on for too long :( 06:50:18 they can be interesting but not on fixed maps where you source-dive to find the places you have to search 06:50:19 the secret doors at the ends of the corridor are quite obvious, yes 06:50:35 on random levels they are fine 06:50:36 i mean more interesting that putting secret doors in obvious places 06:50:42 the ones in the middle of the wall are unlikely to be used by somebody who hasn't read the .des file 06:50:50 give me a break 06:50:51 Zaba: or has some T&D? 06:51:02 move, rest, rest, move, rest, rest finds all the doors in 2 minutes 06:51:07 Zaba: they might be the only way 06:51:21 dpeg, reading the .des file is an equivalent of that ;P 06:51:35 Mu_: I always take up a load of T&D, and still, the quadrants Crypt end took ages in my last game 06:51:37 Mu_, yeah, in hell... 06:52:17 what about it 06:52:24 hell effects 06:52:26 there are no enemies place in the structure 06:52:31 so the only threat is the hell effects 06:52:35 Zaba: which makes T&D more useful there 06:52:35 !log . win 06:52:38 how is that a big deal, it's an end game branch 06:52:40 11. KiloByte, XL27 FePa, T:167011: http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/KiloByte/morgue-KiloByte-20110221-123508.txt 06:53:28 12 skill... which still means I had to look up all possible locations, visit them all and '5' in the spots 06:54:08 i've been through the map before and it's simple. if i actually tried to use the des i'd probably be more confused. 06:54:25 and even worse, after all that long searching, suddenly you have a wall that has to be dug up... how are you supposed to know that without viewing the source? 06:54:41 (tar_mu, the rune) 06:55:04 the original tar has loot behind walls that must be dug too 06:55:22 well, good to know.. at least i'll carry digging now 06:55:39 not the rune, though 06:56:05 Mu_: what about using glass there? Not finding loot is okay, but the rune should be more obvious to get. 06:56:12 there's glass 06:56:22 ok! 06:57:16 only on the last step, and all the searching told you you should keep '5'ing every square of the wall 06:57:57 the structure is stone, the rune room is rock 06:58:06 if i ever get out of abyss, that is 06:58:33 to make things worse, in the default config both rock and stone walls are '#' or 'â–’' 06:58:46 they're different colours 06:59:01 often redefined, including Tar 06:59:16 not to mention permarock always getting the same colour 06:59:45 this map has been in since 0.6 07:00:50 kilobyte: yes, I think stone and rock (with different colours, of course) is good enough for a clue 07:00:52 and Tomb of Doroklohe was a spell for ten years, too 07:01:08 but if you wanna pull it because you found it difficult go right ahead, i'd be happy to no longer have this conversation every few months tbqh 07:01:48 would probably help if Tar had secrets doors in layout generation 07:01:49 Hell too difficult? 07:01:59 so you need to search already during the Tar run 07:02:07 not pull, replace fake randomization 07:02:41 there is no point having secret doors in the game if they are obvious and deterministic. if the player knows where they are they aren't secret. 07:02:51 syllogism: difficulty can be retained by using ways that don't give a massive edge for viewing the source 07:03:11 you'll always have an edge when it comes to vaults 07:03:16 a pretty huge one really 07:03:19 Mu_: exactly -- and in these maps they are deterministic 07:04:26 being in one of three fixed places still means you need to know which places these are 07:05:03 I just looked at the map. I think it's okay. 07:05:20 You're naturally led to the rune room, where you see the rune, and the walls are visibly different. 07:05:26 dpeg: you were the one who added the cool randomisation to the doors :P 07:05:33 :) 07:05:51 You have a hint for the bigger loot chamber, and the smaller is in rock. 07:06:04 I know I've dug randomly when I did hells unspoiled. 07:07:24 -!- valrus_ has joined ##crawl-dev 07:08:29 one of Elf:7 ends had a single piece of rock in a huge stone vault. Even worse, it led into a volume of rock. 07:09:14 I ended up digging for a long time until I looked it up and noticed it looks like an omission. 07:12:23 so at least we're agreed as to the semiotics of rock in stone vaults :p 07:12:26 kilobyte: is it fixed? 07:12:43 Mu_: at some point we should make rules for vault designers. 07:12:46 I could do that. 07:13:11 dpeg: yeah 07:13:20