00:02:33 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:07:20 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 00:19:51 -!- bhaak_ is now known as bhaak 01:09:44 -!- Twinge has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:10:29 -!- Twinge has joined ##crawl-dev 01:25:02 -!- Textmode has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:56:23 -!- Moriasc has joined ##crawl-dev 02:15:29 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 02:16:06 -!- Vandal has quit [] 02:24:15 -!- Kurper has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:04:30 -!- elliptic has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:17:31 -!- Twinge has quit [] 03:20:47 -!- Moriasc has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:42:28 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 03:44:09 -!- Moriasc has joined ##crawl-dev 03:50:18 dpeg: Kiku's torment... should it require Invocations skill? 03:54:11 no one ever trains Invo with Kiku, since Receive Cadavers works well enough for food with just piety, and it makes little difference whether you have no or moderate skill otherwise 04:05:45 Weren't the cadavers supposed to be rotten with low skill? 04:07:08 -!- upsy has joined ##crawl-dev 04:08:57 no one really uses torment with kiku either, though 04:14:28 evilmike: yeah, that's why I'm reluctant to do this, even though it would be consistent with other invocations 04:14:45 ok, the words "invocations" and "consistent" don't belong in the same sentence 04:15:58 maybe if the whole "torment prayer" mechanic was replaced with an actual invocation, where the chance of resisting torment went up with invocations skill 04:16:13 not to mention that usually victory dancing merely speeds up training but is not mandatory... for a number of invocations, it is 04:17:02 evilmike: per dpeg's request, I replaced it with an invocation (didn't push yet), I have doubts if it should use the skill, though 04:17:16 prayer didn't and still no one used it 04:17:40 I actually considered making a ghoul of kiku that used it, but I looked at the piety cost and decided it wasn't worth it 04:19:34 that too 04:19:47 8..12 04:20:10 my current uncommitted version has 8 piety 4 mana 04:21:21 pointless, since if you do Kiku, you have good necromancy skill _and_ the books 04:21:42 you can have the same for 6 mana, 0 piety and no corpse... 04:21:53 and still no one ever memorizes that spell 04:21:58 it's nice for killing mennas as a mu/gh/vp[bloodless] 04:22:05 the ability always seemed to me like a thing for undead races 04:22:20 ah, good point 04:22:25 or I suppose lichform players 04:22:44 hardly anyone goes lichform with kiku though 04:22:50 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 04:23:23 at least spoiled players who have use for the slots, since kiku already provides a few of its benefits, to some degree 04:23:35 oh and there's the whole dumping exp into tmut thing 04:24:14 It's usually better to just get it to around "fair" and cast extension 04:24:22 you don't have to worry about miscasting 04:24:47 or maybe that's just sif. It's been a while since I tried that strategy with kiku 04:40:33 kilobyte: I don't really know. Interface-wise, Kiku torment should be an ability rather than a prayer. 04:41:55 on my disk, it already is... just missing the details 04:42:20 mostly the question about using invocations or not 04:42:48 consistency says yes, other balance considerations say no 04:44:05 thus, as usually when facing a hard decision, I'm shoving it onto the Dear Leader :p 04:44:47 -!- Moriasc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:45:00 more seriously... not sure if forcing people to victory dance to use this is a good idea 04:45:01 -!- Moriasc has joined ##crawl-dev 04:50:39 kilobyte: I haven't played a serious Kiku follower in ages... Do you train Inv with K anyway? 04:51:07 technically yes, in practice no 04:51:38 you'd have to use Receive Corpses a lot with exp in the pool 04:51:48 this is nothing for now, but we should make gods use no Inv or go the full way 04:52:29 It's okay to make Torment not use Inv, imo. 04:53:07 even as a Vp[Kiku], I used Receive Corpses only once, when having to heal in the Crypt 04:57:57 hi 04:58:06 is there any nice way to make corpses not work as a food source? 04:58:19 I'm guessing no 04:58:23 monqy: Why? 04:58:31 I mean, what down-side is it? 04:58:32 I mean 04:58:34 kiku corpses 04:58:46 Yes. 04:58:54 I think we decided that being able to eat them was not a bad thing. 04:59:02 oh 04:59:18 When the invocation went in a few versoins ago 05:00:16 the only common uses I see for it are sublimation and food. I've seen usage with simulacrum/animation/torment maybe once each 05:00:47 03kilobyte * r7a0ed7aab9ef 10/crawl-ref/source/ (7 files in 2 dirs): Make Kikubaaqudgha's corpse torment an ability. 05:00:49 animation was useless since a week or so ago 05:01:08 since the corpses had no stats set 05:01:44 might be worth using, then 05:01:49 but still, you'd need a crapload of Invo skill --or-- be in certain branches to get decent corpses 05:02:22 even if you get shit corpses you can pile them to make strong abominations 05:02:31 lots and lots of them 05:03:12 oh right I forgot about that 05:04:11 kilobyte: thank you! 05:07:14 moin 05:08:26 having an ability that works well only if you reskilled into Invo or trained it to huge levels with another god is quite pointless 05:08:49 Why not just make the number of corpses piety dependent? 05:08:56 If no other Kiku ability uses Invo. 05:09:04 number and quality 05:09:19 Yeah. 05:09:22 Invo 27 gets you ~9 D:27 monsters 05:10:11 Mmm 27 <3 05:10:35 you can get 200 piety by late Orc though 05:11:08 kiku piety is a bit fast as it is 05:11:37 you'll also get your pain weapon by then, which is quite powerful (though I haven't bothered comparing it to zombie armies) 05:13:05 try a quick blade of pain... although sometimes you acquire one on the first scroll, other times not after several 05:14:28 Slow down Kiu piety gain? 05:15:41 she's slower than most gods already (but faster than Zin or TSO, of course) 05:16:22 what about using Necro skill (since she is literally the god of necromancy) 05:16:39 Hm. 05:17:03 That's something the player can directly control; having necro 27 would keep you at roughly full piety all o fth etime, regardless. 05:17:08 Necro skill + kills? 05:17:44 not sure what you mean 05:17:46 Necro skill as a replacement for Invo skill, you mean? 05:17:54 monqy: yeah 05:18:10 so it'd be piety+skill as currently 05:18:52 Ohhh. 05:18:56 That works. 05:18:56 and then Sif invo -> Spellcasting? 05:19:05 st_: I'd be for that. 05:19:05 -!- galehar_ has joined ##crawl-dev 05:19:14 your Kiku piety can dip in Crypt, Tomb and partially Tar, or if you spam abilities heavily 05:19:54 hey 05:19:59 galehar_: meow! 05:20:14 would it be a problem to move the props hash from player/monster classes to actor? 05:20:56 I never got lower than *****. or ****.. piety with kiku when doing the extended endgame, and I heavily used recieve corpses + sublimation on one of them 05:21:06 galehar_: wget http://tozt.net/crawl/%23%23crawl-dev-20110224.log -O -|tail -n 40 05:22:14 galehar_: er, having props in subclasses sounds... weird. I'm all for it. 05:23:02 galehar_: i'm surprised it wasn't there already 05:23:14 ok, cool 05:23:30 ****.. typically stands for "you used about all of your usable piety, recover it NOW" for most gods, so it's consistent 05:23:32 but then... 05:23:33 maybe not really 05:32:10 -!- Vandal has joined ##crawl-dev 05:49:31 -!- NyaaKitty has joined ##crawl-dev 05:58:48 -!- NyaaKitty has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:09:31 -!- monqy has quit [Quit: hello] 06:10:13 -!- evilmike has quit [] 06:13:26 -!- Zannick has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:20:15 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 06:20:21 03galehar * r004b613fedc3 10/crawl-ref/source/ (actor.cc actor.h player.cc startup.cc): Move the clinging boolean to the props hash. 06:20:25 03galehar * rf1f5126f1140 10/crawl-ref/source/ (actor.h monster.cc monster.h player.h): Move the props hash table from the player and monster classes to actor. 06:20:31 03galehar * r3a96062bdaa5 10/crawl-ref/source/player.cc: Fix a clinging message. 06:20:32 03galehar * r3b85171d2424 10/crawl-ref/source/actor.cc: Fix out of LOS clinging message. 06:20:48 -!- Zannick has joined ##crawl-dev 06:46:13 -!- Vandal has quit [] 06:48:32 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 06:51:16 -!- galehar_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:53:11 -!- Vandal has joined ##crawl-dev 07:00:24 -!- ais523 has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:11:11 due: should spiders in Leda's be able to pull out and cling to the wall? 07:11:45 yes 07:11:48 well, hm 07:11:57 is spider form enough to escape cursed eqipment? 07:12:03 if so, then yes -- but it should cancel Leda's. 07:12:28 due: no escape from curse (except weapons, but it's a bug) 07:12:38 in the current implementation, they can't. escape, but it makes the code more complex. 07:13:24 -!- Vandal has quit [] 07:13:46 what does it mean to escape cursed equipment? 07:13:47 ok, I'm lifting the restriction, it will simplify the clinging code and pathfinding. And I'm adding a check to cancel Leda's if the caster isn't touching the ground. 07:13:51 okay 07:14:14 upsy: you can unwield cursed weapon by using forms, but it's a bug. 07:14:26 oh 07:18:33 I see, you drop it 07:19:12 should it block the transformation then? 07:20:26 It used to, I thought. 07:21:21 cursed equipment used to block it in general I think, but armour melds now 07:21:23 blocking transformations led to problems... especially involuntary ones 07:21:35 couldn't weapons meld? 07:21:43 same as for armour, yeah, it would fix the problems 07:22:03 upsy: yes, that's the plan, to meld it. 07:23:14 btw, should we only meld cursed weapons and keep the uncursed ones falling? Or always meld weapons? 07:23:48 just meld, I think... 07:23:55 makes our life easier wrt distortion 07:26:11 so no more distorsion effect when transforming then? 07:54:07 galehar: sounds good 07:55:50 "Engulfed by a pearl dragon's cloud of blessed fire" or "Engulfed by a pearl dragon's blessed fire"? 08:00:03 second one sounds better. 08:00:57 cool, thanks 08:01:20 also, no idea what to put in suicides. These are very frequent with cloud spells... 08:01:29 due: what about stepping into shallow water? It should cancel Leda's too right? 08:01:39 monster suicide? 08:01:50 "Engulfed by your cloud of flame" is inappropriate both for Henzell and for hiscores. 08:02:17 "his own cloud" would be good if we had the gender :p 08:03:00 "its own cloud" then 08:03:10 "Engulfed by own cloud of flame"? Somewhat unwieldy. 08:03:35 no "it", for the player it's never correct 08:03:37 ah sorry, player suicide 08:03:58 "the human hits itself" is egregious enough 08:04:31 the human hits eirself 08:05:30 -!- Kurper has joined ##crawl-dev 08:11:11 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 08:25:20 is there any monster that can cast Leda's? 08:32:14 -!- ortoslon has joined ##crawl-dev 08:32:14 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 08:45:59 -!- Moriasc has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:47:33 -!- Moriasc has joined ##crawl-dev 08:49:43 [13:26] so no more distorsion effect when transforming then? 08:49:54 so you can cast ice form then eat chunks with a dwhip of distortion? 08:53:02 guys? is there a reason to have the status called "Fatig" instead of "Fatigue"? this looks like a weird typo 08:53:13 -!- galehar has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:55:50 Napkin_: brevity? 08:56:36 yeah, the amount of status lights exploded recently 08:57:07 I'd shorten some other indicators too 08:57:22 but that "fatig" just looks wrong 08:57:29 -!- Napkin_ is now known as Napkin 08:58:33 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 08:58:41 tired would work without making it longer 08:58:53 how is it worse than Sil or Stlth? 08:59:45 because you see it a lot more 08:59:53 sil & stlth definitely look like abbreviations, while fatig just looks like bad misspelling 09:02:04 the more often a status light pops up, the smaller the need to fully explain it -- and the likelihood it can pop up when you have a lot of other indicators 09:02:10 still, what about "Exh"? 09:02:23 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 09:02:33 -!- casmith789 is now known as N3891_789 09:02:52 sure, sounds good 09:03:13 -!- N3891_789 is now known as casmith789 09:04:49 it's been asked to make a status light for shallow water too 09:05:01 heh yeah 09:05:11 there are two strong opposing arguments 09:06:10 1. I very often find myself using 'x' then moving the cursor onto myself to check if I'm in water. Having this information handly would simplify things a lot. 09:07:06 2. you would have this status light pretty often, spamming the area and making people less accustomed to considering the HUD important 09:07:43 one could show the glyph that's under the player somewhere in the HUD 09:08:10 currently, water spam the message area 09:09:36 Zaba: especially if it's not "." 09:10:36 kilobyte: to check your square, you can just press ";" instead of using x. 09:11:03 -!- eith has quit [Quit: sleep] 09:13:12 03kilobyte * rdb9d7ca1f704 10/crawl-ref/source/cloud.cc: Fix "a dark miasma" and two other mass nouns. 09:13:23 03kilobyte * r714192de90a4 10/crawl-ref/source/ (ng-restr.cc ng-setup.cc): Cats are not pandas, no kung-fu. 09:13:25 03kilobyte * re46bb743cd23 10/crawl-ref/source/ (abl-show.cc exercise.cc): Use necro skill for Kiku's invocations. 09:13:25 03kilobyte * rad67c2922a02 10/crawl-ref/source/status.cc: Make the status light for exhaustion "Exh" rather than "Fatig". (Napkin) 09:13:30 03kilobyte * r92d5e8278dcc 10/crawl-ref/source/ (hiscores.cc libutil.cc): Include the source in direct damage cloud obituaries. 09:13:43 03kilobyte * rac0d171e78d0 10/crawl-ref/source/cloud.cc: Include the sources in obituaries due to poisoning by clouds. 09:15:38 awesome, thanks, kilobyte :) 09:22:28 03kilobyte * r3ae055c0efd6 10/crawl-ref/source/output.cc: Don't show blocked claws on Wp: (xyblor) 09:31:25 A nice item completely surrounded by stone walls, translucent stone walls and walls of green crystal - is there anyway to get this item? will digging or desintegration work on one of those wall types? 09:33:35 no 09:33:52 (no to dig/disintegration) 09:34:11 you teasers :-P 09:34:29 glowing double sword! 09:34:30 * dpeg giggles 09:35:07 it's not even a randart... 09:36:14 wouldn't LRD work? 09:36:26 at high enough powers? 09:36:37 ?? LRD 09:36:38 lrd[1/7]: Lee's Rapid Deconstruction. Turns walls into explosions. Mostly useful for removing inconvient stone or green crystal walls, though one needs fairly high power to pierce stone (and even higher to pierce metal). Causes undodgable damage to anything foolish enough to be near the wall, rumour says this is somewhat useful in Elf. 09:36:52 I've noticed ancient_champions_mu use no_rtele_into. Should really used no_tele_into, it's too easy to get the loot. Not many vaults use no_tele_into, so maybe others have this problem. 09:37:04 yes, LRD works 09:37:15 and you don't need high power to shatter the crystal 09:37:17 lrd works at any power 09:37:19 yeah 09:39:43 does the amount of piety change anything about penance? 09:40:14 galehar: yes, good point. no_rtele_into is a safety measure to protect the poor player; no_tele_into is there to make sure the player is up to the task 09:41:57 dpeg: I've fixed ancient champions (will push later as usual). Maybe you can have a look at other vaults? 09:42:56 it is strange to get other monsters in ancient_champions 09:43:20 * kilobyte had Boris there, this made me think he can replace one of them. 09:48:15 will the amulet of faith prolong okawarus penance? now that I switched to ashenzari 09:49:16 no 09:49:22 Napkin: can we pack the html version of the manual with the game? 09:49:50 galehar: I think you should - why are you asking me? 09:49:59 oh, you mean the mingw trunk builds? 09:50:18 yes 09:50:50 and futur stable releases of course 09:51:18 there's a crawl_manual.txt in the docs folder 09:52:36 the manual.html has 163kb 09:53:44 agreed to name it MANUAL.html and keep it in the main folder, beside README.txt/pdf, CREDITS.txt and LICENCE.txt? 09:57:58 -!- Moriasc has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:02:10 yes, seems good to me. 10:05:00 will adjust the scripts tomorrow or on the weekend 10:05:18 I'm usually not building the release packages 10:05:38 so, you may want to add this to the procedure document for releases, galehar 10:05:55 * Napkin pokes dpeg * 10:09:03 es "bound in weapon" is a bit unfair if you don't go with weapon type that can butcher corpses 10:09:19 any way to loosen that restriction? 10:09:39 you can learn animate skeleton 10:09:50 or lrd 10:10:14 there's not that much benefit to being bound anyway, armour and jewellery is plenty 10:10:48 remove weapon boundedness imo 10:10:55 and butchering with lrd is tedious and horrible, i tried it for a bit once :P 10:11:03 imo implement eronarn's skill boost for ashenzari 10:11:11 and boundedness + piety should determine the degree 10:11:20 it introduces all kinds of weirdness (horn, rods, etc.) but isn't really a big deal 10:11:44 this is actually a good idea even if you don't remove reskilling 10:13:06 Yred wrath can be farmed (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3495) by casmith789 10:14:20 TGWi: probably what will happen is that the skill boost will end up going to chei and ash will go unchanged 10:14:22 galehar: I was just about to do the no_tele_into, when work intervened. Will look, yes. 10:14:38 but it makes sense for chei 10:14:41 s/chei/ash/ 10:15:05 why would chei get a skill boost? 10:15:44 MarvinPA: that's the joke!! 10:15:48 (chei is, i mean) 10:15:56 ((chei is a bad god)) 10:16:01 oh 10:16:05 i see 10:16:24 hm, i should look into making chei work with restricted-slot races at some point 10:16:28 TGWi: explain, please 10:16:42 the skill boost? or why it makes sense for ash? 10:17:09 boundedness + piety ==> degree 10:17:32 the number of levels the skill is boosted depends on piety and boundedness 10:17:41 I got that :) 10:17:50 maybe literally "piety + boundedness" :P 10:18:52 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 10:18:53 piety stars beyond three plus your boundedness maybe, so it ranges from 1 to 6 10:19:12 idk 10:19:27 TGWi: there is a reason why I rejected this idea back then: if you can change the boosted skill all the time, that's not good. So you want to some mechanic to prevent that, which has to be devised. Also, we're adding things of different scales (one advantage of reskilling is that it does not: you turn xp into xp). 10:19:37 we have a mechanic to prevent that 10:19:39 it's called piety 10:19:50 dpeg: free to keep the boost up, but a significant piety cost for changing the skill 10:20:46 I view directly manipulating xp as a disadvantage, skill levels are cleaner 10:21:26 TGWi: but if we don't have ash manipulate XP, then the new skill screen will go to waste!! 10:21:36 A matter of taste, I guess. 10:21:53 TGWi: Do you see a way to make the skill boost take into account more than boundedness? 10:21:54 the new skill screen displays all apts always 10:22:01 dpeg: more than boundedness? 10:22:12 like what? 10:22:21 We are still in search for a way to reward player who curse more items than necessary (e.g. all of two rings and the amulet). 10:22:24 the new skill screen also lets you view all skills 10:22:43 if that's a design goal I think you should just change the way boundedness works 10:23:14 having two systems for curses is somewhat strange 10:23:15 TGWi: no. I want Ash to reduce tactical flexibility, but not cripple players outright. 10:23:41 boundedness = 0, 1 (50%+1 of worn), 2(100% of worn) for each of armor and jewellery 10:24:09 However, it is thematic to run around in all cursed gear, so something good should come from that. 10:24:11 stars of piety >3 + 1 + boundedness skill boost, but you have to have at least 1 cursed item of armor/jewellery to boost physical/magical skills respectively 10:24:14 players don't necessarily have to bind themselves fully 10:24:17 03kilobyte * re640620e3b46 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/tiles/title_denzi_kitchen_duty.png: An update to Denzi's "kitchen duty" title screen. 10:24:17 ^ 10:24:24 they'd be missing out on maybe 1 skill level and some piety gain 10:24:41 piety gain is increased (not multiplied by) boundedness 10:25:14 Instead of something gradual, there could also be an effect (only) for fully cursed players. 10:25:25 so, say... if base piety gain is 3, you get +0/+1/+2 for each of jewellery and armor 10:25:33 (Where fully cursed means: every cursable item you wear/wield is cursed.) 10:25:37 3 for nothing cursed, 7 for everything cursed 10:26:06 and drop weapon cursedness because really what does it add to ashenzari 10:26:41 every character might want to swap armor/jewellery and do so about equally, but no weapon swap just encourages archetypes that don't need to swap weapons 10:26:54 it's a restriction, but the wrong kind (eligibility rather than tactical) 10:27:33 a bit off-topic, do multi-god overflows work? 10:27:40 ps TGWi paste what i said so dpeg will actually read it thanks in advance 10:28:40 I don't think he has you ignored 10:29:22 Sorry, I have. I am allergic to "it's dumb", it makes my blood boil. 10:29:23 (he sent me a PM saying he does) 10:29:36 (11:26:40 AM) Eronarn: every character might want to swap armor/jewellery and do so about equally, but no weapon swap just encourages archetypes that don't need to swap weapons 10:29:36 (11:26:54 AM) Eronarn: it's a restriction, but the wrong kind (eligibility rather than tactical) 10:30:09 I found the restriction to be quite meaningful, no matter whether weapon, rings or armour. 10:30:11 what about making weapon curses more inclusive 10:30:19 explain 10:30:25 hand cursing + implicit butchering 10:30:26 TGWi: nethack did it first (stormbringer) 10:30:27 :D 10:30:39 (moorcock did it first) 10:31:14 I don't think it's a problem: if you go unarmed, you just have a little slower piety gain. If you go with a weapon, well then Ashenzari prefers bladed. Nothing wrong with that. 10:31:28 here is a radical idea 10:31:37 you mean, obsidian axe? 10:31:38 use my thing for ashenzari 10:31:43 use reskilling for sif 10:31:46 Even less of a problem if that reward for cursing beyond boundedness is of the time I hinted at above. 10:31:56 both give knowledge, but different kinds 10:31:57 "cursed hands" seem silly to me 10:32:03 yes 10:32:13 just tells you how to do stuff in the moment, which is MUCH more fitting given his flavor and other abilities 10:32:24 sif gives you actual *knowledge*, lasting beyond your adherence 10:32:43 (11:31:38 AM) Eronarn: use my thing for ashenzari 10:32:43 (11:31:43 AM) Eronarn: use reskilling for sif 10:33:03 Eronarn: both give knowledge, but different kinds Eronarn: ashenzari just tells you how to do stuff in the moment, which is MUCH more fitting given his flavor and other abilities Eronarn: sif gives you actual *knowledge*, lasting beyond your adherence 10:33:36 dpeg: well, I don't think it's a huge problem 10:33:38 ilu TGWi <3 10:33:43 but it would be better if everyone could do it 10:34:04 doesn't really have a flavour reason for not liking UC or dull weapons, it's just a consequence of how the game's mechanics work 10:34:23 TGWi: other gods have that too 10:34:36 not to the same degree really 10:34:54 chei has his preference for races with armour slots but that's not a very popular element 10:34:59 of him 10:35:14 TGWi: yes, that is a problem 10:35:26 And that's why I did it differently with Ash. 10:36:11 the way boundedness works is definitely better than ponderousness 10:36:24 ponderousness sucks so baddddd :( 10:36:37 though the turning stuff into randarts is cool, there should be a non-chei way of doing that 10:37:19 perhaps the fighter equivalent of that library portal I proposed could be a forge 10:37:26 Eronarn: scroll of empowerment 10:37:41 timed vault, shows up very early (~sewers), lets you convert one item to a randart 10:37:56 arms/armor only 10:37:57 people don't have items they want to make randarts at sewer depth 10:38:08 exactly - you can't just avoid entering it until you get a katana 10:38:08 at the very least they're unenchanted 10:38:10 What if Ash gave a skill boost to a skill that's trailing behind? You wouldn't use it to beef a skill you're using already anyway, but for something else. This would go well with the strategic flexibility. 10:38:21 you end up with, say, a really good spear or trident randart 10:38:26 but not something you'll use for the rest of the game 10:39:03 (remember, the library idea is limited too - these aren't meant to be very powerful portals, but just ones more flavorful than finding something on the ground, or with some additional risk/challenge) 10:39:49 I like giving the player the choice of which skill to boost 10:40:01 it's another interactive part for a god that needs more 10:40:21 (also it's interactive when you want it to be, but passive if you don't care for being interactive) 10:40:33 eh, the best thing about ash is that everything is mostly passive 10:40:38 also there's greater strategic flexibility 10:40:42 MarvinPA: what eronarn said :P 10:41:10 but yeah, picking a skill to boost isn't so bad maybe 10:41:26 MarvinPA: yes, I really like the passive part. 10:41:51 boosting a skill that is lagging behind is more of a sif-y kind of thing really 10:41:57 well, it's a passive boost 10:44:21 wonder what else sif could get... amnesia, reskilling, hmm 10:44:49 channeling should probably go given that it's not particularly flavorful or interesting 10:45:33 sif should probably divert exp to spellcasting if it's at less than 1 10:45:38 a wizardry bonus on spells you haven't just cast might be cool 10:45:48 atm sif doesn't allow people who don't have spells 10:45:57 because they have no chance of gaining piety with her 10:46:05 it seems more flavourful that she'd try to teach them instead 10:46:09 yes 10:46:18 (and wouldn't reading scrolls boost sif piety at 0 spellcasting, as they train spellcasting?) 10:46:19 perhaps sif could start by gifting spells directly into your mind 10:46:21 and books only later 10:46:43 ais523: yes but once you had 1 spellcasting you'd no longer be able to gain piety until you found a book 10:46:44 say: if you have any empty spell slots, sif gifts into them *OFTEN*, and only starts gifting books once you're 'full up' 10:46:50 that'd be potentially really, really cool 10:47:08 MarvinPA: good point, although it's possible that you have one already and are switching to sif to be able to use it 10:47:19 since then amnesia becomes important as a way to 'reroll' your sif spells 10:48:00 are there really people who choose a non-casting background and then worship sif? 10:48:13 galehar: yes, if i find a book before temple i do it sometimes 10:48:21 I've thought about it 10:48:29 i imagine more people would do it if more people wanted to take sif in the first place 10:48:30 it wouldn't be a case of setting out to worship sif 10:48:56 And learning spellcasting with scrolls before the temple should be quite common too, right? 10:48:56 but rather a case of starting a melee character or whatever, deciding casting would be useful, and if I come across a few books and a sif altar early, it would make sense to go sif if I hadn't already decided which god to go for 10:49:12 learning spellcasting with scrolls doesn't often happen pre-temple because there's not much exp available around there 10:49:16 and often not enough scrolls either 10:49:31 okay, so gifting individual spells + reskilling + amnesia... what else would it take to get sif a god people actually want to play? because that - channeling would be a more fun, but less powerful sif overall 10:49:36 I like sif teaching you spellcasting 10:50:03 dpeg: are you sold on the skill boost? 10:50:12 TGWi: which way? 10:50:15 i don't see that there's anything wrong with having to find a book you can use before you can worship sif 10:50:32 power or wiz boosts are kind of too generic i guess, maybe 10:50:48 TGWi: I am thinking along the line that Ash boosts all your skills to piety * level _if_ you're fully cursed. 10:50:59 Eronarn: I don't see reskilling going from ash to sif. 10:51:07 -!- felirx_ is now known as felirx 10:51:15 Sif needs a decent library, not reskilling, in my opinion. 10:51:28 Eronarn: do you see Sif as being a god who shouldn't be entirely for spellcasters? 10:51:31 galehar: it'd be way more flavorful on the part of both gods 10:51:40 why is everyone talking about sif like she's not popular 10:51:45 she's one of the most popular gods 10:51:52 and for good reason 10:51:59 casmith789: and one of the most boring/generic ones 10:52:17 ais523: i think it's okay if sif does some stuff that isn't spellcasting but since most 'knowledge' in crawl is spellcasting-related... 10:52:18 I think boring/generic is actually a reason to play gods, for many players 10:52:45 ais523: god redos don't have to be ~zany~, look at oka 10:52:51 boring is opinionated. I don't think Sif is boring, and we won't get into who I do think is. 10:52:52 more interesting this way despite not actually being that different 10:52:55 Generic is good. 10:53:04 has sif channeling been changed yet from food using model? 10:53:23 the design of old-Crawl's god system is pretty straightforward: okawaru gives noncasters what they need (healing/might/haste/weapons/armor), sif gives casters what they need (amnesia/mp/spellbooks) 10:53:29 of course, that's pretty uninteresting 10:53:38 felirx: no 10:53:39 oka gives healing!? 10:53:41 it still uses invocations, too 10:53:44 and especially meant that there was basically no reason to use any other god 10:53:47 casmith789: no, but he used to 10:53:47 casmith789: old oka did 10:53:48 a long long time ago 10:54:00 in which case choosing sif makes your food supply at least interesting 10:54:03 he was basically "list of things that make fighters better" god 10:54:07 especially if you don't find gourmand 10:54:08 felirx: not really :/ 10:54:20 try playing a DSWz of sif with no gourmand 10:54:29 dpeg: I don't like boosting all skills to a minimum 10:54:37 felirx: if I did that it'd be a hybrid :P 10:54:45 with or without gourmand 10:54:47 hybrid supremacy 10:54:51 what would you say to: at ***, you can passively boost a skill by (piety beyond ***) + (boundedness), and change the skill for a significant piety cost (10?) 10:54:53 old sif didn't have channeling right? 10:55:34 TGWi: also i think making it instant would be interesting, so you have a reason to want to use the ability more often / consider it an option in more situations 10:55:52 with the flavor that ashenzari tells you the skill you need without you having to even ask 10:55:54 so it's a little like a potion of agility, but for skills instead? 10:55:56 by seeing into the future 10:56:16 "Dodge left! Now!" kind of thing 10:56:35 ais523: it would be semipermanent 10:56:54 the skill boost stays until you change it to another skill 10:56:58 hmm, now I'm wondering if that would work as a manual effect 10:57:06 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 10:57:22 you run into the problems with boosting fighting/spellcasting again there, though 10:58:14 ash prevents the pool emptying entirely but instead gives a bit of a reserve of exp (presumably hidden from the player), and you can pay a bunch of piety to unload it into a skill of your choice that you might need in an emergency 10:58:16 03kilobyte * r09b08a20a15c 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/tiles/ (5 files): Recompress title images. 10:58:18 if you think fighting and spellcasting are so much better than regular skills maybe you should fix fighting and spellcasting 10:58:19 the thing is, Crawl doesn't do that 10:58:33 ais523: exp manipulation is messy 10:58:35 oh well, gotta go to a meeting now 10:58:46 boosting skill levels is cleaner 10:58:46 i will possibly post a sif proposal afterwards, because now i have ideas 10:59:38 I've victory-danced up spellcasting in Sprint before now 10:59:50 boosting skill levels is good, but we have heroism already. Transfering skill levels would be completely broken considering the difference in cost. 10:59:55 it's not that hard, just turn off every other skill and spent a boring minute or so casting spells at a wall 10:59:56 TGWi: I think I explained the advantage of boosting low skills instead of a skill the player chooses. 11:00:25 presumably that means it's also viable in the actual game, just takes half an hour rather than a minute 11:00:42 galehar: it's nothing like heroism 11:00:52 and nobody has ever suggested transferring skill levels 11:00:55 also i proposed it before heroism anyways, just sayin' 11:01:04 (months and months before) 11:01:09 okay, meeting time 11:02:39 dpeg: the strategic flexibility thing? 11:03:36 TGWi: yes. If the players gets to choose the boost, it will often fall on a skill that's advanced (especially since it is an addition of skill _levels_). 11:03:47 So this is about boosting specialisation. Which Crawl already does. 11:04:19 there's no problem with it "often" falling on certain skills 11:04:22 Whereas boosting skills laying low is completely different. First, it is completely passive, and second, it does something general. 11:04:52 TGWi: if you have the choice of a +5 on skills -- will you put than on a 22 skill where it's worth a lot of xp or on a 2 skill? 11:05:02 hint: question is rhetorical 11:05:10 dpeg: considering the boost is as large or even larger for the lower skill 11:05:14 then I would boost the lower skill 11:05:28 TGWi: now you deviate from the "add to skill levels" proposal 11:05:35 what? 11:05:42 skills have diminishing returns 11:05:44 xp cost is completely irrelevant 11:05:45 dpeg: sometimes skills have extremely dimishing returns, e.g. weapon skills 11:05:49 magic skills too 11:05:58 power caps, lack of high levels spells, etc all do this 11:06:02 stepdowns 11:06:05 that's those skills fault... perhaps we should focus on skills which stay useful to the end? 11:06:21 so fighting and spellcasting 11:06:25 and armour and dodging 11:06:30 those four skills 11:06:55 dpeg: the boost is completely neutral 11:07:07 you're equally benefiting from boosting a lower or higher skill 11:07:10 even in ideal circumstances 11:07:26 (i.e. all skills being equally useful at all levels) 11:07:42 boosting low skills only benefits spellcasters using multi-school spells as far as I can tell 11:07:58 nobody is going to give up their 15 skill in a weapon for 6 in another 11:08:17 especially if the 6 disappears once they actually train 6 levels in that skill, and especially especially if reskilling is also available to them 11:08:40 the real problem with weapon skills is that there's no reason to train more than one of them 11:08:53 especially with races like merfolk that have much better apts for one than the others 11:08:58 ais523: true, although I've seen an interesting proposal to change that 11:09:28 can we get out of the mentality of "spend two years changing everything about the game so that dpeg's implementation of something works" 11:10:03 TGWi: If you want to destroy all the joy I have with this project, just keep going on! 11:10:26 what if when you activate the ability, Ash choose a random set of skills. You can choose one only among those. 11:12:00 I'm saying that if weapons work a certain way, and spellcasting works a certain way, and fighting works a certain way, and that way isn't immediately broken, it's best to design assuming those things won't be completely redone in the near future 11:12:05 ok, have to go now 11:12:08 bye galehar 11:12:27 in theory, with the current exp implementation, reskilling should be useful only for removing exp from a skill which you forgot to turn off, due to the existence of victory dancing 11:12:36 so at the moment it's more or less a nicer interface to dancing 11:12:44 ais523: no, not really. 11:13:13 -!- galehar has quit [Quit: Page closed] 11:13:22 I don't think it should be that limited, and perhaps it isn't 11:13:28 ais523: reskilling allows to change to a new weapon by throwing away the xp in the old weapon. Or to adapt to a new spell school if you suddenly find books supporting it. 11:13:42 It is more than a dancing shortcut. 11:13:52 ah yes, so it's useful if you didn't know in advance what skills you would like 11:14:06 how many players play like that? I get the impression that most players who win a lot have their builds mostly calculated in advance 11:14:29 -!- Moriasc has joined ##crawl-dev 11:14:34 I agree that encouraging players to play like that is a good thing, though 11:15:14 ais523: you don'T need it very often, but it sure is useful. 11:15:44 A typical complaint is that Poison magic loses its sting (not quite true but still...). With reskilling you can invest without looking back. 11:15:57 -!- TGWi has left ##crawl-dev 11:16:19 ais523: if you're lucky, you may never have to reskill anything. But you always had the opportunity. That's what I mean by flexibility: it is good potential. 11:16:29 indeed 11:16:57 now I'm trying to think of what decisions in Crawl are irreversible without divine help 11:17:00 skilling is one of them 11:17:10 and stat boosts on level drain is another 11:17:12 *level gain 11:17:22 but I think that's more or less it 11:17:23 god choice is reversible, but a very substantial choice 11:17:44 ais523: acquirements, portal vaults 11:18:57 well, the choice with portal vaults is when to leave (or to not enter, which is equivalent to leaving immediately), but I agree that's on the list 11:19:35 -!- MeowFelid has joined ##crawl-dev 11:20:27 one-per-game god abilities count too 11:20:34 true! 11:20:56 in principle, every consumable is such a choice too :) 11:23:53 so the interesting thing about Ash's reskilling is that you can rethink those decisions 11:24:16 and thus, its power is proportional to a) the chance of having made the wrong choice, and b) the value in being able to make different choices in different parts of the game 11:24:46 for some choices, obviously b) is very valuable, e.g. if ash let you use every consumable twice, he'd probably be completely broken 11:24:47 I believe one element the proponents of boost-instead-of-reskilling don't value (or don't recognise) is that the latter is a trade: give and take, whereas the former is like a gift. 11:25:03 ais523: yes, that's a good summary 11:25:34 for reskilling, b) is not obviously broken, and the debate seems to be about how good it is 11:26:18 ais523: your "wrong" depends on the context: if you start with Fire but find only Ice books, it's good to reskill even if you didn't do anything wrong 11:26:47 I didn't mean "wrong" as in a bad strategic decision, but in the sense of not being able to tell the future 11:27:07 yes 11:27:12 just saying 11:27:24 ais523: I am not sure if the resistance about reskilling is along those lines, though. As I understand it, the points are: (a) it is metagamey. (b) it is a no-brainer. (c) it is not flavourful. 11:27:43 -!- Hehfiel has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:28:11 it is good to discuss all of those, of course 11:28:22 I don't really consider things like skills metagamey, but then I don't consider things like sniping kills from your summons metagamey, so I'm likely not the best person to hold an opinion about that 11:28:23 Ideally without claiming in advance that reskilling obviously sucks. 11:28:30 ais523: :) 11:29:10 There's surely a subjective component to (a). If you think that reskilling fits the flavour, then you'll have less problems with (a) as well. 11:29:43 on the basis that things can't be metagamey if they're flavourful, by definition? 11:30:46 a little, yes 11:33:34 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 11:39:15 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 11:39:48 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 11:46:22 03dpeg * rb67fc5b31cdc 10/crawl-ref/docs/develop/levels/syntax.txt: Explain the distinction between no_tele_into and no_rtele_into. 11:46:23 03dpeg * r3d678226e89b 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/variable/mini_monsters.des: Replace some more no_rtele_into by no_tele_into (galehar). 12:00:58 -!- ais523 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:13:51 Problematic Pants (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3496) by Curio 12:15:34 -!- TGWi has joined ##crawl-dev 12:18:43 dpeg: skill boost is a trade 12:18:46 opportunity cost and whatnot 12:19:11 -!- Moriasc has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:21:20 TGWi: okay, but the other one is clearly more of a trade. 12:21:38 reskilling: trading skill a for skill b 12:21:45 skill boost: trading skill a for skill b 12:22:19 reskilling means you're giving more up and getting more for it, though, yes 12:24:00 TGWi: yes 12:24:20 03galehar * r61fa7851b5e5 10/crawl-ref/source/ (6 files): Allow wall clinging when on liquefied ground. 12:24:21 03galehar * rd90935ef6c9c 10/crawl-ref/source/ (actor.cc actor.h areas.cc main.cc showsymb.cc spl-cast.cc): Cancel Leda's is player isn't standing on solid ground. 12:24:22 03galehar * r7ead031c6633 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-cast.cc: Apply the same limitation as the player to monsters for casting Leda's. 12:24:22 03galehar * r5cd8323801a1 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/variable/float.des: Prevent getting the loot of the ancient champions vault with control teleport. 12:24:23 03galehar * r526d3d6a624c 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-act.cc: Removes a redundant check. 12:24:24 TGWi: I really have a problem with these personal attacks. 12:24:34 03galehar * r787dc3fefd8f 10/crawl-ref/source/ (6 files): Monsters use pathfinding to go around shallow water. 12:24:46 I don't believe I've made any 12:24:49 (from before you left) 12:25:28 I won't cite it... It is true that something seems strange with skills. 12:26:01 This is not new information, it is old. Ashenzari reskilling put it into the spotlight, but instead of killing the messenger, we should wonder about the causes. 12:26:26 We won't change Fighting overnight, but there clearly is a problem (completely unrelated to the god). 12:26:27 so.. Zin will help my young char more than TSO? 12:26:39 in 0.8 probably 12:26:40 Napkin: well, probably. 12:26:46 Napkin: Elyvilon, definitely. 12:26:51 before 0.8, 0 !> 0 12:26:57 ely is best though yes 12:27:13 atm I want the skill boost to replace the experience boost instead of reskilling 12:27:22 since devs seem quite attached to that 12:27:30 TGWi: yes, I understand that. Which is why I kept asking you for details. 12:29:13 ok then, i'll try 12:29:23 Instead of boosting skills, Ashenzari could also speed up learning of low-level skills (where "low" is defined by piety and total cursage). This is like an xp boost, but it will only be spent on new skills. 12:29:47 !send Napkin crucifix, bible and hostia. 12:29:47 Sending crucifix, bible and hostia. to Napkin. 12:30:01 dpeg: abusable with reskilling 12:30:39 (cross training is probably still abusable with reskilling too, but I don't like playing ashenzari and nobody has told me what the fix actually is) 12:30:49 TGWi: but reskilling uses actual xp... there's very little xp in those early levels. The xp cost for reskilling is much higher. 12:31:13 the xp cost for reskilling is 10% (20%?) 12:31:23 if your boost is less than that I don't imagine it's useful 12:31:24 10%, will probably go up 12:31:40 there is little point in reskilling from a level 3 skill 12:32:01 anyway, I don't understand the opposition to skill boosting 12:32:14 dpeg: you get another level 3 skill, which may be useful :) 12:32:32 casmith789: but it's only three. And a bit less to boot. 12:32:47 TGWi: hey, I don't understand the opposition to reskilling. 12:32:53 it's a lot easier to start victory dancing a L4 spell though if you already have some skill in it 12:32:58 true 12:33:00 that's why I'm not arguing about reskilling 12:33:03 :P 12:33:22 re: alleged personal attacks, I don't think it's useful to take things personally just because I said "dpeg's implementation" 12:33:25 casmith789: sure. But is reskilling such marginal amounts of xp really worth the piety? 12:33:26 people have good ideas and bad ones 12:33:32 except eronarn, he only has bad ones 12:33:32 dpeg: yes. 12:33:41 casmith789: oh 12:33:44 is it worth the time? no 12:34:02 casmith789: indicates that the piety cost has to go up as well. (Also, piety gain is too fast right now.) 12:34:23 as far as I can tell playing ash, the fact that reskilling takes time is the main issue 12:34:34 dpeg: sure, but initially it's around the right place. 12:34:50 if you couldn't reskill by xl20 ash would be pretty rubbish 12:36:04 casmith789: you mean in-game time? 12:36:07 reskilling takes so much time I have built up enough piety to use it again when the old one finishes. This is just how ash plays at the moment. So you're definitely gaining piety all the time - what else have you to use it on? Scrying? Only in very rare circumstances (very dangerous uniques) can you not just use passive detection as a scry ability 12:36:11 yes 12:36:27 turns, really 12:36:30 yes 12:36:37 xp gained, not turns :P 12:36:40 but yeah 12:36:47 xp gained is a function of turns 12:37:02 Magic mapping for piety! 12:37:07 basing it on xp gain works well, anyway 12:37:29 MarvinPA: yes, time (turns) is only good for negative things like piety decay 12:37:45 dpeg: maybe this is because I always go around fully bound so I don't have to think about piety 12:37:59 casmith789: yes, I usually play completely unbound :) 12:38:07 !lg dpeg 12:38:08 1148. dpeg the Conjurer (L11 DSWz), worshipper of Fedhas, blasted by an orc priest (divine providence) on Orc:2 on 2011-02-24, with 11364 points after 21743 turns and 1:17:34. 12:38:14 !lg -1 dpeg 12:38:15 1148. dpeg the Conjurer (L11 DSWz), worshipper of Fedhas, blasted by an orc priest (divine providence) on Orc:2 on 2011-02-24, with 11364 points after 21743 turns and 1:17:34. 12:38:18 03galehar * rd40bec1bfe39 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-stuff.cc: Only intelligent monsters path around shallow water. 12:38:25 it's much more relaxing than having to sacrifice every corpse and every item. Hence why I prefer Ash to Nemelex 12:38:29 !lg -2 dpeg 12:38:30 1147. dpeg the Magician (L1 DSWz), slain by a rat on D:1 on 2011-02-23, with 49 points after 60 turns and 0:00:35. 12:38:33 !lg -3 dpeg 12:38:34 1146. dpeg the Conjurer (L9 DSWz), worshipper of Fedhas, slain by an emperor scorpion in Spider (spiders nest a) on 2011-02-23, with 3100 points after 12627 turns and 0:49:08. 12:38:36 grrrr 12:38:43 !lg dpeg god=~ash 12:38:44 16. dpeg the Brawler (L14 DSGl), worshipper of Ashenzari, slain by a very large slime creature on D:14 on 2011-02-22, with 66158 points after 35729 turns and 2:23:56. 12:39:01 ah, yes... thanks! That guy had **** without bondage 12:39:20 I see, did you get to max piety at all? 12:39:29 omg @ help page for recite 12:39:36 haha, Napkin :) 12:39:44 casmith789: I know. There was definitely demand for a relaxed god. 12:40:30 To be fair, sacrificing "everything" to Nemelex is a misconception. 12:40:31 ash is just a lazy god :) I just wear my best items, curse them, and don't even have to bother victory dancing when my god does it for me 12:40:41 You can afford to be very discerning and lazy with him. =x 12:46:36 -!- Moriasc has joined ##crawl-dev 12:48:02 dooh.. i recited 3 times now against some wizard ghost and his summoned imps and i have absolutely no idea whether it helped anything or not :-O 12:48:13 apart from being almost dead now, of course 12:49:44 Napkin: is the ghost damageD? 12:49:59 and the cost "delayed" didn't help in preparing me that the reciting would cost several turns each 12:50:04 not a scratch, dpeg 12:50:46 no convulsing message, no harming message 12:51:15 all i saw were confused imps, because the wizard kept casting mephitic cloud 12:52:25 imps aren't confused by meph, that was probably the recite 12:52:50 they didn't show as being confused 12:53:03 The ufetubus is engulfed in noxious fumes. 12:53:03 The ufetubus appears confused. 12:53:10 huh 12:53:13 @??ufetebus 12:53:13 unknown monster: "ufetebus" 12:53:14 sorry, level 5 daemons 12:53:18 @??ufutebus 12:53:18 unknown monster: "ufutebus" 12:53:22 erk 12:53:25 @??ufetubus 12:53:25 ufetubus (115) | Speed: 15 | HD: 1 | Health: 4-10 | AC/EV: 2/15 | Damage: 5, 5 | Flags: 05demonic | Res: 06magic(4), 02cold, 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 04fire, 08holy++ | XP: 8. 12:53:34 oh okay, weird 12:55:16 did i use recite in the wrong situation then? 12:57:29 Napkin: did you already have a special recitation against undead? 12:57:38 There is one, Ablutations? 12:57:38 pardon? 12:57:40 Pretty cool 12:58:19 i have * with Zin.. and reciting seems to have read randomly books 12:58:42 if only one of the types of recite is applicable, it automatically does that one 12:58:54 so it probably did the anti-undead/demons one 12:59:10 ok 12:59:16 it read anathema but that didn't do anything 13:00:20 anathema next and anathema again, before I had to run 13:00:51 and not a single of those 5s or the ghost itself had any obvious harm done to them 13:01:01 demons and undead are harder to affect than living things, i believe 13:01:16 Napkin: you can't expect Recite to win the game for you :) 13:01:25 It is much better than it used to be, trust me. 13:01:30 Eronarn did a good job. 13:01:40 excuse me, i'm not saying it should win the game 13:01:46 I know :) 13:01:50 but it should just do _something_ ? 13:01:56 It will 13:02:22 it read apostates against a troll, and nothing happened 13:02:42 Gotta go... but one story: from time to time, players complain that Makhleb is useless: if they try summon demon and get hostiles twice in a row, that's the natural conclusion. But still wrong. 13:03:08 ok, you got me speechless now 13:03:34 Just give it some chance. 13:03:43 -!- EroN1 has joined ##crawl-dev 13:03:45 first off, the expanation screen is humongous and very watery 13:04:11 it uses 3 turns without warning me about that 13:04:30 and, 4 times of usage I would like to see something 13:04:36 i still have no idea what it does 13:04:47 i'm not saying it should kill all enemies on the screen or the like 13:05:05 Marc, ich msus meinen Zug kriegen. Wenn es gar nicht klappt, !tell me. Dann zeig ichs dir :) 13:05:19 run, forest 13:05:34 Recite: (a) smartbomb, (b) bazooka, (c) thermonuclear weapon 13:05:47 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:05:56 (d) sure death 13:06:22 I would have rather removed that god as starting option than the paladin :-P 13:06:45 are those recite changes in yet? 13:15:16 -!- MeowFelid is now known as NyaaKitty 13:16:19 yay, galehar fixed my kobold sewer (I assumed shallow water slows down monster movement, and now it does) 13:16:26 Keskitalo: :D 13:16:44 didn't realise he fixed that 13:18:09 -!- monqy has joined ##crawl-dev 13:28:06 -!- Moriasc_ has joined ##crawl-dev 13:36:33 -!- Ashenzari has joined ##crawl-dev 13:36:33 -!- The topic of ##crawl-dev is: Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki | Long stuff to pastebin.ca please | Immortal Warwalrus and Crazy Yiuf forever. 13:37:26 -!- RjY has joined ##crawl-dev 13:40:31 -!- Henzell has joined ##crawl-dev 13:42:39 -!- jarpiain has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:42:46 -!- jarpiain has joined ##crawl-dev 13:44:46 the (dazed) status is not shown in the ctrl+x screen 14:02:15 03dolorous * r3a5141c53f9e 10/crawl-ref/source/abl-show.cc: Remove unreachable (and erroneously duplicated) code. 14:02:19 03dolorous * rcd47c9570fe0 10/crawl-ref/source/abl-show.cc: Add more minor cosmetic fixes. 14:07:35 -!- Henzell has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:08:10 -!- Henzell has joined ##crawl-dev 14:14:32 -!- MarvinPA has quit [] 14:15:33 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 14:30:38 -!- EroN1 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:30:45 -!- Napkin has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:30:50 -!- Napkin has joined ##crawl-dev 14:31:59 -!- Zannick has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:33:35 -!- Henzell has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:34:10 -!- Henzell has joined ##crawl-dev 14:34:47 -!- Zannick has joined ##crawl-dev 14:40:31 03dolorous * r09a8b85493e9 10/crawl-ref/source/ (abl-show.cc defines.h player.cc zotdef.cc): Comment fixes. 14:47:33 major spam source: vampire aux bites 14:47:56 You closely miss the hound. You bite the hound. You draw the hound's blood! You feel much better. You feel slightly more full. The hound is moderately wounded. The hound barely misses you. 14:49:09 it's even better when you kill something and get " accepts your kill" too 15:02:32 -!- NyaaKitty has quit [] 15:10:02 -!- Zannick has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:10:08 -!- Zannick has joined ##crawl-dev 15:14:47 -!- GreyKnight has joined ##crawl-dev 15:20:47 -!- GreyKnight has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:28:55 -!- NyaaKitty has joined ##crawl-dev 15:29:22 -!- GreyKnight has joined ##crawl-dev 15:29:50 I died :-( 15:40:29 say, did Crawl ever get an in-game options editor? 15:42:48 sadly, no 15:42:58 it would be a good deal of work, though 15:43:38 hm, maybe I should see if my old patch can be brought into line with the new code (and uh then made to work right at all) 15:43:42 i was thinking today, that a "/"-search in message history would be cool 15:44:37 aye 15:44:39 yeah, that'd be cool too :-) 15:45:02 I catch myself pressing that nearly every time :p 15:45:11 hehe, same here today 15:46:04 it is sometimes said that if your users keep trying to do something, that is a sign that you should implement it :-) 15:47:15 -!- Kronusdark has joined ##crawl-dev 15:55:10 -!- syllogism has quit [] 15:58:43 omg, a room with 6 vampire mosquitos in d9? my heavy armour char used 7 healing potions! harsh 15:58:54 sorry, d6 15:59:13 that's a death trap 15:59:49 should've run to stairs 16:00:06 mmh? 16:00:18 me? 16:00:27 yes 16:00:39 they have 25 speed 16:00:59 hmm 16:01:06 don't they? 16:01:06 @??vampire mosquito 16:01:06 @?? vampire mosquito 16:01:06 vampire mosquito (07y) | Speed: 19 | HD: 5 | Health: 17-39 | AC/EV: 2/15 | Damage: 507(disease), 805(vampiric) | Flags: 07undead, evil, fly | Res: 06magic(20), 03poison, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | Chunks: 04hydrochloric acid | XP: 179. 16:01:07 vampire mosquito (07y) | Speed: 19 | HD: 5 | Health: 17-39 | AC/EV: 2/15 | Damage: 507(disease), 805(vampiric) | Flags: 07undead, evil, fly | Res: 06magic(20), 03poison, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | Chunks: 04hydrochloric acid | XP: 179. 16:01:11 19 16:01:55 a bit low that vault imo 16:02:01 yeah, I agree 16:03:58 wow, they also make your flesh rot? 16:04:25 geez.. wtf 16:04:39 wouldn't that be (rot) 16:04:47 for some reason monster vampiric attacks rot you 16:04:53 ‎I don't know why 16:04:57 awful 16:05:23 anyways, orc priest behind it.. boom 16:06:05 -!- Kronusdark has quit [Quit: Kronusdark] 16:18:10 enough! g'night :) 16:47:17 03dolorous * r025e1da9ab96 10/crawl-ref/source/ (6 files): Clean up smiting code to match the interface elsewhere. 16:48:13 03dolorous * r429231a7e399 10/crawl-ref/source/godabil.cc: Add comment. 16:50:39 -!- pointless_ has joined ##crawl-dev 16:52:26 03dolorous * rb58d3ec74215 10/crawl-ref/source/spl-damage.cc: Make the burn_freeze() failure message match vampiric_drain(). 16:58:27 03dolorous * r9618260a5b72 10/crawl-ref/source/ (enum.h spl-damage.cc stuff.cc): Add "There's nothing close enough!" to the canned message list. 17:25:59 -!- GreyKnight has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:42:59 Orcish idol in enchanted forest (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3497) by minmay 17:49:10 that should really be changed 17:49:17 vamp draining maxHP i mean 17:51:41 -!- Moriasc_ has joined ##crawl-dev 17:53:55 -!- ortoslon has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:54:08 -!- Moriasc has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:54:17 -!- Moriasc_ is now known as Moriasc 18:04:40 -!- eith has quit [Quit: sleep] 18:06:15 03kilobyte * r4334eddd29d3 10/crawl-ref/source/enum.h: Remove an unneeded #ifdefing. 18:26:22 -!- pointless_ has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.13/20101203075014]] 18:32:54 other sources of big spam: forms that meld lots of stuff (vampire bat) 18:33:25 cheibriados supporting and unsupporting your attributes over and over when you swap equipment 18:33:38 and giving/taking resists 19:01:47 my staircase to Lair got placed in a lemuel_castle vault. that's peculiar in itself but worst of all it's in a recoloured section so it got changed to brown 19:02:55 monqy: Hm, that's a bug; recolouring should not affect branch stairs. 19:03:36 branch stairs should not be placed in vaults, surely? 19:03:42 that sounds like it's asking for trouble 19:18:30 branch entry placed in vault, recoloured (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3498) by MrMisterMonkey 19:19:01 TGWi: no, that shouldn't happen either 19:19:10 * due pokes Zaba a few times. 20:08:46 Escape hatch mimic described as stair mimic (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3499) by minmay 20:10:22 -!- Mu_ has quit [Quit: Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place.] 20:33:06 -!- evilmike has joined ##crawl-dev 20:39:24 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:48:54 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 20:49:46 -!- upsy has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:28:41 -!- NyaaKitty has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:09:55 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:39:06 -!- blackflare has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:45:56 -!- blackflare has joined ##crawl-dev 22:56:23 -!- Moriasc has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:04:39 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 23:27:17 -!- elliptic_ has joined ##crawl-dev 23:27:35 -!- elliptic has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:28:31 -!- elliptic_ is now known as elliptic 23:31:13 horrible severe game-breaking bug: 23:31:19 there is a typo in options_guide.txt 23:31:31 "usefull" instead of "useful" 23:32:02 well, someone at QA is getting fired