01:17:05 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:38:49 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Diversas_lampreas.1_-_Aquarium_Finisterrae.JPG 01:42:18 -!- ortoslon1 has joined ##crawl-dev 01:42:18 -!- ortoslon has quit [Disconnected by services] 02:12:04 -!- Textmode has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:29:09 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 02:38:42 <3 Awesome god! 02:38:48 moin guys 02:51:34 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 03:05:55 hi 03:11:14 hi 03:11:14 galehar: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 03:11:21 let's nerf Ash! ;) 03:11:25 !messages 03:11:25 (1/1) elliptic said (1d 8h 17m 55s ago): I don't really mind having a qstaff option for monks, but starting with UC skill feels really strange (it is completely insignificant if you are using a weapon, but it will train occasionally anyway)... can it be changed to 4 staves and 0 UC? 03:12:15 hmm 03:12:27 bug? 03:12:28 it will train only as often as it is useful 03:12:34 03due * rdebb6ad30963 10/crawl-ref/source/ (11 files in 3 dirs): Tukima's Dance Party -> Tukima's Ball. 03:12:46 no, I did it on purpose 03:12:52 for two-handed weapons, this means, headbutts and kicks 03:13:14 sure, it doesn't train much, but you'll be forced to get a few levels in it over the course of a game 03:13:26 I found it appropriate for monks to have a little bit of UC in addition to staves 03:13:26 tukima has only got one ball, the other is in the albert hall 03:13:41 it used to be popular to intentionally get 1 UC to start it to get those kicks 03:14:02 oh, do they get staves and UC? 03:14:07 I think staves and UC is fine if they select staves 03:14:09 as an example of how insignificant the 1 UC skill is, I tried clearing d:1 with a qstaff HuMo... I got two UC attacks on the entire level (a headbutt and a punch) 03:14:20 they get either 4 UC or 3 staves and 1UC 03:14:26 and it was a busy level (got to L3 well before the end) 03:14:44 I don't see anything wrong with that, though 1 UC might not be a complete level for some apts, no? 03:15:03 yup 03:15:57 makes sense to have it 03:16:05 perhaps more UC could be given, even. 03:16:20 elliptic: yeah, it is insignificant. But since you don't waste noticeable xp into it, it's not an issue. It might be even worth it long-term. 03:16:46 2UC and 2 staves have been suggested too 03:16:55 "worth" in an infinitessimal meaning of the word 03:17:32 galehar: or perhaps even just 3 UC 3 staves -- you use one or the other, not both 03:17:56 mainly it just feels annoying because of how bad unarmed auxes are currently unless you are a dedicated UC fighter 03:18:02 I agree it isn't a big deal 03:19:24 any _weapon_ skill would be a big issue, due to wasting a good percentage of all weapon acquirements 03:26:21 i had the impression my char did lot more unarmed attacks when I wore a short blade instead of a quarterstaff.. is that because quarterstaff is 2-handed? 03:26:22 kilobyte: by the way, how much did you increase unrandart generation by? the change is really noticeable 03:35:29 Napkin: with 1-handed, you can also punch with your off hand. With 2-handed, only headbutt and kicks. 03:35:52 ic.. what about draconian tail slap? 03:36:18 at the beginning of this char i was doing it quite often.. but that seems to have stopped somehow 03:36:27 *4 for regular generation, *7 for GOOD_ITEM ('|' and the like) 03:36:44 -!- tiago_ has joined ##crawl-dev 03:36:52 somewhat below 0.6 chances 03:37:58 the difference between random floor items and GOOD_ITEM doesn't seem to be intentional, though, so we might want to equalize them 03:39:02 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 03:39:09 !seen kilobyte 03:39:09 I last saw kilobyte at Mon Feb 21 09:37:59 2011 UTC (1m 10s ago) saying the difference between random floor items and GOOD_ITEM doesnt seem to be intentional, though, so we might want to equalize them on ##crawl-dev. 03:39:22 -!- tiago has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:39:56 not sure what's being discussed, but kilobyte is probably spot on 03:40:04 (context: < elliptic> kilobyte: by the way, how much did you increase unrandart generation by? the change is really noticeable; <+kilobyte> *4 for regular generation, *7 for GOOD_ITEM ('|' and the like); <+kilobyte> somewhat below 0.6 chances 03:40:08 dpeg: <3 03:43:35 -!- tiago_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:45:03 kilobyte: really sounds good. I came here to ask you about Alter Self and my distilled !mut proposal. You have a good point, and we should kill grinding before it happens... 03:45:06 -!- tiago has joined ##crawl-dev 03:45:30 kilobyte: thanks for the numbers... quite a large change from 0.7, as I thought. I have no idea what sort of frequency is desired for unrands, but currently you'll see a half dozen to a dozen each game it seems 03:47:01 elliptic: that sounds wrong... it's possible I did a mistake, but the numbers should be smaller than for 0.6 and 0.7.0 (the redunction was a side effect of a 0.7.1 change) 03:47:50 dpeg: removing grinding is good, but I wonder if it would be good to think why that grinding is needed 03:48:05 they might be smaller than 0.7.0... hard to compare with that because of the bug that meant that you got lots of the same few unrands then 03:48:24 yeah 03:48:45 they don't feel smaller than what I remember from 0.6 or 0.5, but that was a long time ago ;) 03:48:54 -!- upsy has joined ##crawl-dev 03:50:10 kilobyte: that is the question of why we have mutations? 03:52:34 elliptic: in my recent KoBe who splatted in a Zig, I had Robe of Folly (ground), Cloak of Flash (bailey), Knife of Accuracy (trove), nothing from Trog 03:54:03 dpeg: I mean, debilitating mutations that are hard to get rid of 03:54:40 -!- tiago has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:54:50 kilobyte: but we have been adding tools to cancel them, somehow. (Like "stasis) 03:55:08 dpeg: since often you find like two potions of cure mutation during the entire game, making people resort to grinding chunks or bribing+dumping Zin 03:55:15 my current game (L21 working on V) has knife of accuracy, captain's cutlass (both ground), mithril axe (lair:8 vault), golden bow (crypt:5 vault), robe of misfortune (xom gift) 03:55:22 -!- tiago has joined ##crawl-dev 03:55:26 I had a couple previous winners with more 03:56:31 dpeg: yeah, countermeasures are good 03:58:00 -!- tiago has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:58:02 elliptic: might be indeed a problem... found like 5 on my current kitteh, although the log won't show them since they went straight to Nemelex 03:58:57 !log * win cv>=0.8 03:58:57 328. Truggles, XL27 SpVM, T:177194: http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/Truggles/morgue-Truggles-20110221-000643.txt 03:58:58 !log * win cv>=0.8 -2 03:58:59 327. casmith789, XL25 CeGl, T:118023: http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/casmith789/morgue-casmith789-20110220-191641.txt 03:59:00 !log * win cv>=0.8 -3 03:59:00 326. RoundRobin, XL27 MDIE, T:176274: http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/RoundRobin/morgue-RoundRobin-20110220-183212.txt 03:59:00 !log * win cv>=0.8 -4 03:59:01 325. hyperelliptic, XL24 KeAr, T:81821: http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/hyperelliptic/morgue-hyperelliptic-20110220-105245.txt 03:59:46 Truggles had not a single one. 04:00:22 -!- tiago has joined ##crawl-dev 04:00:39 casmith had only one, but since it was Dragon King, it really counts 04:00:49 he had dyrovepreva also 04:00:53 robe of misfortune (xom gift) : how apropos... 04:01:07 ??xom gifts 04:01:08 xom gifts[1/1]: Xom's generous nature manifests itself. _Something appears at your feet! A fabulously ornate robe {god gift}. 04:01:20 haha 04:02:25 kilobyte: won't interrupt the unrand discussion any longer. My assessment on !mut: independently on whether we raise !CM chance and/or nerf nasty mutations a bit, removing strategic distilled potions (by making them temporary) should be a good move. 04:02:49 by the way i think the Captain's Cutlass should be capitalized 04:03:07 the Captain's cutlass is just any old cutlass that the Captain happens to be using 04:03:19 but the cutlass is named the Captain's Cutlass 04:03:26 RoundRobin did a 15-runer, salamander's armour (ground), shield of the gong (Elf:5 vault) 04:03:47 -!- tiago has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:03:51 dpeg: poison, etc, might be fine 04:04:19 RjY: I'd go with "captain's cutlass" 04:04:21 that roundrobin game started last month though, I think a lot of it was played before the change maybe? 04:04:28 ah, possible 04:04:39 oh, no it didn't 04:04:40 started Feb 13 04:04:51 kilobyte: no, it's its name, it should be capitalized as it's a proper name 04:04:59 but it was nemelex 04:05:09 so who knows how many were sacrificed 04:05:23 -!- tiago has joined ##crawl-dev 04:05:34 ttygrep :P 04:05:48 @dump 04:05:48 http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/KiloByte/KiloByte.txt 04:05:57 es scry abiltity is an invocation, right? i've been scrying like crazy, but seems like it's not using points from the xp pool :-O 04:06:12 Napkin: it is, yes 04:06:13 anyway, there probably isn't a real problem... unrands just feel less special now 04:06:23 ok, thanks - i'll keep doing it then 04:06:40 Napkin: there might be a bug with training it though, of course 04:06:55 roger, i'll keep you posted 04:06:55 dpeg: You okay with dance party -> bal? 04:07:17 maybe it's this "gain the skill" barrier 04:07:45 I don't think scry uses invocations 04:07:47 due: sure 04:07:48 hmm, my game has several armour and weapon artefacts listed... is standing upon them enough? 04:08:04 the success/duration of it just depend on piety level iirc, like for trog 04:08:09 but if Ash uses Inv at all, then scry should train it 04:08:14 elliptic: ah, ok 04:08:42 not the shop ones, of course -- found quite a few, including N78291's axe 04:09:08 Ash doesn't use Inv currently 04:09:24 good 04:09:32 Napkin: ^ 04:09:40 oh 04:09:53 but scry is listed under invocations 04:10:06 BTW, we should do something with Kiku... there's no reason to train Inv, except for one -- having 27 will give you mad amounts of good zombies 04:10:11 so.. success rate gets better by more piety? 04:10:32 like with Trog... 04:10:41 invocations among gods are wildly inconsistent 04:10:54 are nemelex' evocations-training invocations listed under invocations? 04:11:31 if i remember correctly they are listed under evocations, monqy 04:11:55 I believe that the general Inv skill should be removed and replaced on a per-god skill 04:11:59 Receive Corpses: you don't need any Invo if you want corpses, or when invoking it in branches without native zombifiable monsters. Elsewhere, you want 0 or 27. 04:12:12 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 04:12:22 ok. well, that's a bit confusing then 04:13:01 -!- tiago has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:13:36 -!- tiago has joined ##crawl-dev 04:15:35 dpeg: you mean when you switch god you lose all your invocation skill? 04:16:03 well you'd effectively regain it on taking that god back up 04:16:07 as I see it 04:17:37 galehar: yes, my idea was that Invocations are not transferable among gods 04:17:49 monqy: yes, exactly 04:18:00 but that's a long term thing (if at all) 04:18:15 trog and ash are the only gods that have their abilities listed under invocation but don't train it? 04:18:28 sounds like another reason to not switch gods :) 04:19:06 -!- galehar_ has joined ##crawl-dev 04:19:10 so no more Elvilyion -> TSO, just for training inc 04:19:13 * RjY has still never switched god in a game 04:19:27 I am not against the idea 04:19:34 but I would think that the invo should transfer between the good gods 04:19:45 -!- galehar has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:19:50 but going yred -> tso, well, you knew how to invoke darkness, how do you know how to invokve lightness? 04:20:06 -!- tiago has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:20:57 -!- tiago has joined ##crawl-dev 04:21:01 do you think the good gods ever argue about the minutiae of policy. like tso sneers at ely for being a pacifist wuss, etc. 04:21:17 due: yes, that is an option 04:21:50 dpeg: flavour wise it is good and it helps with the "change good gods regularly" thing that i like 04:23:02 wouldn't it just help for now to list trog's and ash's abilities differently in a separate category on the abilities screen? 04:23:35 like Renounce Religion is surely also not training invocations, yet listed there for every god 04:23:54 Napkin: abilities themselves are evocations, so being on the ability screen doesn't make it automatically an invocation 04:24:11 Invocations - 04:24:12 a - Scrying 4 MP, Food, Piety Poor 04:24:17 --- 04:24:25 but that's what the ability screen says 04:24:34 Oh 04:24:39 Huh, I never noticed that :S 04:24:42 same for Trog 04:24:46 ??invocations 04:24:50 invocations[1/2]: Used by TSO, Beogh, Cheibriados, Elyvilon, Fedhas, Kikubaaqudgha, Lugonu, Makhleb, Okawaru, Sif Muna, Yredelemnul, Zin. Not used by Nemelex Xobeh, Trog, Vehumet, Xom. Trog bases invoked powers on your piety, Nemelex on your evocations (which they train). 04:25:22 !learn edit invocations[1] s/Xom/Xom, Ashenzari/ 04:25:23 invocations[1/2]: Used by TSO, Beogh, Cheibriados, Elyvilon, Fedhas, Kikubaaqudgha, Lugonu, Makhleb, Okawaru, Sif Muna, Yredelemnul, Zin. Not used by Nemelex Xobeh, Trog, Vehumet, Xom, Ashenzari. Trog bases invoked powers on your piety, Nemelex on your evocations (which they train). 04:26:23 learn edit invocations[1] s/Trog bases/ Trog and Ashenzari base/ 04:26:27 !learn edit invocations[1] s/Trog bases/ Trog and Ashenzari base/ 04:26:27 invocations[1/2]: Used by TSO, Beogh, Cheibriados, Elyvilon, Fedhas, Kikubaaqudgha, Lugonu, Makhleb, Okawaru, Sif Muna, Yredelemnul, Zin. Not used by Nemelex Xobeh, Trog, Vehumet, Xom, Ashenzari. Trog and Ashenzari base invoked powers on your piety, Nemelex on your evocations (which they train). 04:26:45 !learn edit invocations[1] s/ / / 04:26:45 invocations[1/2]: Used by TSO, Beogh, Cheibriados, Elyvilon, Fedhas, Kikubaaqudgha, Lugonu, Makhleb, Okawaru, Sif Muna, Yredelemnul, Zin. Not used by Nemelex Xobeh, Trog, Vehumet, Xom, Ashenzari. Trog and Ashenzari base invoked powers on your piety, Nemelex on your evocations (which they train). 04:28:27 We should call them Religious abilities? 04:28:35 At least for the gods where they aren't Invocations. 04:28:51 "Gifted powers"? 04:29:03 you do invoke Trog, in a sense 04:29:25 you just don't use the invocations skill 04:29:26 -!- tiago has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:29:30 you could also list them at the very top without header, like is done for my mottled draconian's "Breathe Sticky Flame" ability 04:29:31 Vehumet and Xom have no active powers 04:29:51 it's just Trog and Ashenzari who are outliers 04:30:11 -!- tiago has joined ##crawl-dev 04:30:16 -!- elliptic has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:30:57 then the statement is correct, kilobyte ;) 04:31:11 alas a bit confusing, true 04:35:08 -!- tiago has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:35:21 -!- tiago has joined ##crawl-dev 04:39:53 anyone know if my trove will accept a demon whip of venom, if it's just asking for a demon whip? 04:40:02 I don't want to waste scrolls enchanting it... 04:53:55 -!- tiago has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:54:55 -!- tiago has joined ##crawl-dev 04:55:03 -!- monqy has quit [Quit: hello] 04:58:32 -!- tiago has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:59:55 -!- tiago has joined ##crawl-dev 05:01:28 -!- neunon has joined ##crawl-dev 05:01:28 -!- neunon is now known as Guest5733 05:03:31 st_: don't know. It should work. Please try and report :) 05:03:31 -!- tiago has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:04:01 -!- Guest5733 has quit [Client Quit] 05:04:55 -!- tiago has joined ##crawl-dev 05:06:23 st_: Possibly not. 05:06:40 st_: In fact, probably not, unless eliptic did a lot of changes to the code. 05:06:58 due: but do you agree it should work? 05:07:15 -!- tiago has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:07:25 What is with tiago? 05:07:39 dpeg: I don't know. 05:07:59 -!- neunon_ has joined ##crawl-dev 05:07:59 -!- neunon_ has quit [Changing host] 05:07:59 -!- neunon_ has joined ##crawl-dev 05:10:10 -!- neunon has joined ##crawl-dev 05:10:56 -!- neunon_ has quit [Client Quit] 05:13:05 -!- tiago has joined ##crawl-dev 05:15:49 -!- neunon has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 05:18:17 -!- Guest60051 has joined ##crawl-dev 05:19:37 -!- tiago has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:20:17 -!- tiago has joined ##crawl-dev 05:22:16 -!- NyaaKitty has joined ##crawl-dev 05:22:40 -!- galehar_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:24:12 -!- tiago has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:25:17 -!- tiago has joined ##crawl-dev 05:25:18 -!- Guest60051 has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 05:34:32 -!- tiago has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:34:42 -!- tiago has joined ##crawl-dev 05:37:30 -!- NyaaKitty has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:39:54 -!- tiago has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:40:52 -!- tiago has joined ##crawl-dev 05:43:06 -!- tiago has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:45:53 -!- tiago has joined ##crawl-dev 06:02:47 -!- evilmike has quit [] 06:16:47 -!- neunon_ has joined ##crawl-dev 06:17:09 -!- neunon_ is now known as neunon 06:17:20 -!- neunon has quit [Changing host] 06:17:20 -!- neunon has joined ##crawl-dev 06:18:56 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 06:22:36 -!- Keskitalo has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:25:17 -!- Keskitalo has joined ##crawl-dev 06:45:23 -!- Keskitalo has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:52:02 -!- Keskitalo has joined ##crawl-dev 06:55:50 -!- lorimer_ has joined ##crawl-dev 06:58:30 -!- Keskitalo has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:58:34 -!- Keskitalo has joined ##crawl-dev 06:59:04 -!- lorimer has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:00:51 -!- lorimer_ has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:01:24 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 07:01:35 -!- lorimer has joined ##crawl-dev 07:03:23 -!- Keskitalo has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:11:55 -!- Keskitalo has joined ##crawl-dev 07:12:17 -!- hayenne has joined ##crawl-dev 07:13:57 hi, could anyone comment unique monster status, please? 07:14:03 Aim: Frederick, wielding a glowing demon trident, and wearing an orcish banded mail (moderately wounded, clinging) 07:14:13 I'm not sure why he got clinging status 07:15:28 maybe his monocle doubles as a grappling hook :-) 07:16:24 https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3445 07:16:39 hayenne, are you sure it's not displayed for all monsters? 07:17:01 or at least, any other non-clinging monsters aside from frederick 07:17:26 I suppose he got polymorphed into a spider of some sort with a help of Zot trap 07:17:32 see that bug report 07:17:59 (haven't seen actual polymorph) - but my issue looks precisely like elliptic described in the bug report 07:18:23 see his comment, too :P 07:28:48 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 07:31:56 how much is lost when ash transfers skills? 07:32:15 (if at all) 07:32:43 10% 07:33:17 hmm, ok, thanks :) 08:02:05 -!- galehar_ has joined ##crawl-dev 08:03:02 hayenne: so he wasn't polymorphed? 08:03:29 galehar_: by the time I saw him, no 08:03:55 I just figured he could polymorph outside my LOS with Zot trap 08:04:33 polymorph into a spider, cling, then polymorph back into a human? Seems unlikely. 08:04:44 anyway, I'm rewriting most of the clinging code :) 08:05:10 -!- galehar has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:05:36 galehar_: kudos for doing spidery stuff :) 08:06:31 -!- galehar_ is now known as galehar 08:11:51 ooh btw btw btw 08:12:03 I love the one-god-per-class changes 08:12:21 because people will now actually have to play (start) with xom to win a chaos knight :D 08:12:25 ..Zin too :) 08:12:56 is DK (back) in? 08:13:05 "Is it possible to keep an alteration to trunk but keep updating it? I think it's ridiculous that the devs are okay with crippling elf hybrids by making them start with a short blade. Even the addition of a single extra skill ramps up your later exp costs by a billion. Its racist against high elfs." 08:13:08 yeah, that was one of the changes I thought 08:13:26 syllogism: an intriguing appeal 08:13:40 I have no idea what that is about of course 08:13:47 syllogism: SA, I presume? 08:13:49 yes 08:16:14 is that because falchions got added then removed again? 08:16:15 MarvinPA: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 08:16:20 !messages 08:16:21 (1/1) casmith789 said (19h 52m 53s ago): FR: conservation protects against harpies. you know it makes sense 08:16:28 MarvinPA: Thanks for the class reform 08:16:34 :) 08:16:36 class AND religion reform, I can't get over that 08:16:56 yeah, it's been on the wiki for ages and i thought it was definitely worth getting around to :) 08:17:31 \o/ 08:18:20 btw, do you guys think we should do the late D/Vaults monster set separation for 0.8? I do think deep dwarves should probably wait until 0.9 - I mean using deep dwarves in D (which I think is a good idea) 08:18:34 (..despite not actually seeing them in game, or even in wizmode..) 08:18:59 they do show up in the abyss and zigs already, so maybe they could even start appearing in late D too 08:19:16 i liked the look of your proposed vaults/D differentiation at least 08:19:17 they don't seem very balanced to me 08:19:41 MarvinPA: Thaaanks :) 08:19:49 dd I mean 08:19:51 "Even the addition of a single extra skill ramps up your later exp costs by a billion". what about that? isn't it ridiculous? 08:19:55 code problems matter regardless whether a monster is rare or not... just balance problems care about rarity 08:19:56 galehar: yes it is 08:19:56 although if they showed up in packs in D, there's the issue that they often drop healing/heal wounds potions 08:20:08 casmith789: I do assume they'd need work, so to 0.9 they'd go 08:20:19 yeah, the potion stuff is tricky 08:20:20 it seems to imply having more skills makes it harder to gain experience levels 08:20:24 03kilobyte * r5327dcdd8394 10/crawl-ref/source/ (initfile.cc monster.cc state.cc): Properly clear some uninitialized variables. 08:22:08 Keskitalo: a monster set separation for late D/Vaults would be great. I guess it could go into 0.8, provided someone were actually working on it. 08:22:37 RjY: actually, having more (total) skills making further training harder would make sense 08:22:58 did you know that having a bad exp aptitude is a _good_ thing usually? 08:23:19 kilobyte: no it isn't :) 08:23:20 i didn't 08:24:01 isn't it based on the total XP spent rather than skill levels 08:24:17 of course, you don't get the hp, mp and stealth, but all your skill training is cheaper 08:24:46 kilobyte: I thought skill training speed was on your skills total exp 08:24:52 kilobyte: also MR from level up 08:24:54 it seems to me the only time your rate of gaining experience levels really matters is on D:1 when you're trying to get to XP2 as quickly as possible so you can learn blink or whatever 08:25:19 not really 08:25:37 Ko high exp apt for instance negates much of their low hp 08:26:00 also getting to L3 on D:1 is a lot better than staying on xl1 and that's what can be the difference sometimes 08:37:34 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 08:38:55 kilobyte: skill cost doesn't depend on XL, but on total number of skill points 08:46:32 -!- edlothiol has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:46:47 How about we bring back reaver with a new book: https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:background:reaver#synergy_with_melee 08:46:51 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 08:48:38 -!- edlothiol has quit [Client Quit] 08:53:40 you don't mean skill levels right 08:54:28 well it's pretty obvious in debug 08:55:44 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 08:58:14 -!- tiago has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:00:17 how about adding traps to ctrl+x screen? 09:00:43 -!- edlothiol has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:01:00 i'm using that screen for everything, but traps i always have to check manually 09:02:08 -!- tiago has joined ##crawl-dev 09:02:52 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 09:10:00 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 09:12:25 Napkin: Could be ncie I think 09:12:47 I'd really love that 09:13:32 i have ctrl+x mapped to space 09:14:24 he, cool :) 09:14:25 i use it a bit less since i play trunk (which shows monster & item names when they come into few), but still a lot in case i missed a message 09:15:21 galehar: I could go with that (I like the danr/monqy/me suggestion above better, but you've obviously looked at that before proposing this book :)) 09:15:48 (what I like about it would be that all the spells would be conj) 09:16:11 buuut fire brand and corona would both be useful i suppose 09:16:50 my proposal is close to the fire reaver of danr 09:17:14 but flame tongue has no synergy with melee and bring the overlap with fire elementalist from 2 to 3 spells 09:18:06 https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=668 *facepalm* 09:18:47 maybe some new spells are needed, not just a new book. 09:18:53 damned if i can think of any, though. 09:18:55 why can't people read what's in the goddamned message area, it's there for a reason :P 09:19:25 Zaba: the guy also created a mantis ticket 09:19:49 that calls for an interface change in tiles 09:20:09 wait: 09:20:10 https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3478 09:20:42 every levelup, there's a modal pop-up box that reads, "REMINDER: READ THE MESSAGE AREA, YOU ILLITERATE APE" 09:20:45 the message area is quite a long way away from the play area if you run the game in a large terminal. i turned on messages_at_top 09:20:53 and an obscure crawlrc option to disable that 09:21:06 lol 09:21:29 maybe the players will be slightly more educated after a few releases with that 09:21:30 i read "i ding to level 2" as going to d2 09:21:32 because, seriously 09:21:45 nah, you are being to harsh 09:21:52 it just says "--more--" 09:22:07 well, let's change that to "--more (PRESS SPACE)--" 09:22:18 people nowadays are not used to less/more anymore 09:22:28 -- read more -- press space -- 09:22:35 some people always are, some people never were 09:23:09 -- press any key to continue -- and don't complain if you don't have an any key -- 09:23:22 report bug if you can't find any key 09:23:28 so we can keep a top-score :D 09:23:30 -!- galehar has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:23:38 :) 09:24:44 It was obvious in the user testing that most of the players didn't read the messages very carefully (when starting out) 09:25:13 you just don't expect it to be so important, especially in tiles where so much more information could be given out in the viewport 09:25:39 Keskitalo, yeah, well, something has to be done about the levelup --more-- and subsequent stat prompt, though 09:25:46 yeah 09:26:01 it seems to be the only thing that's repeatedly causing that problem 09:26:15 if we could get all those prompts clickable, (yes/no stuff included), we'd be pretty close to full mouse playability 09:26:17 would adding 'press space' to the --more-- prompt help, I wonder? 09:26:29 that's only because --more-- isn't shown too often anymore because of the condensed messages, zaba 09:26:29 or should a less lazy solution be sought :P 09:26:32 http://pastebin.com/0hDRiDpL it would be nice if the game was a little more intelligent about extremely tall terminals. this is just a little suboptimal. the monster list is never going to be that long. 09:26:41 Napkin, could remove the --more-- from levelup 09:26:49 nah 09:26:58 Zaba: I'm pretty sure it would help really 09:26:59 it's a note-worthy event 09:27:05 and definitely there's no harm 09:27:16 Napkin, noteworthy events go into notes anyway 09:27:19 (I mean adding the "press space" 09:27:26 Napkin, do you want a --more-- on every OOD monster? :P 09:27:40 no :-P 09:27:51 Napkin wants a --more-- on every monster that can possibly paralyse him :P 09:28:03 RjY: does your config contain any old config about the sizes? that shouldn't happen anymore 09:28:05 Keskitalo, fun fact, it already does that in hints more 09:28:07 mode* 09:28:18 Keskitalo, and a little bit more than that, but still. 09:28:24 -- more to read -- press space -- 09:29:31 and yes! "more" those bastards... pleeeeease! 09:29:31 :D 09:30:27 -- more to read -- type "YES, I understand to press space" to continue -- 09:30:43 well http://pastebin.com/ZPUr6HR8 is my .crawl/init.txt with messages_at_top temporarily commented out. it doesn't have any other explicit layout changes made. 09:30:57 i actually don't mind, messages_at_top is fine once i got used to it 09:32:02 seriously, there was a change that should have prevented that 09:32:40 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:32:56 playing on CDO, RjY? what exactly is your terminal size? 09:33:02 Napkin: no, local 09:34:11 hmm.. i'm too lazy to create a new char to reproduce ;) 09:34:18 *account 09:39:01 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 09:39:10 wb, Zaba 09:42:46 the great thing about messages_at_top, when you get used to it, is that no matter what happens the newest message lines are nearest to the player view 09:44:57 for it's most confusing that the stats on the right are not at the top 09:45:16 *forme 09:47:07 but yeah, messages and health display is also closer together 09:49:11 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 09:50:10 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 09:54:11 hey galehar? thanks for the change to the skill screen - i think it looks much smoother now :) 09:54:42 (i mean the keyboard legend at the bottom, apart from the totally awesome new screen, of course) 09:57:38 hey :) 09:57:49 also, there is a more prompt for paralysing monsters 09:57:51 no wait... 09:57:59 that's when you're paralysed ;) 09:59:36 -!- Zao has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 10:00:31 about the skill screen: how about an option to toggle 3x faster training? For only one skill, which isn't fighting nor spellcasting. 10:00:37 -!- Zao has joined ##crawl-dev 10:01:35 -!- galehar_ has joined ##crawl-dev 10:03:49 -!- edlothiol has quit [Quit: edlothiol] 10:04:45 -!- galehar has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:11:08 :D 10:15:50 -!- galehar_ is now known as galehar 10:21:10 is that like a free sage card 10:21:15 or am i misunderstanding 10:21:45 it sounds really powerful even if you stop it being used on fighting/casting 10:21:53 3x more likely to train i imagine 10:21:58 rather than 3x faster 10:22:02 you can do that already 10:22:09 with turning all other skills off 10:22:12 but i don't see why spellcasting should be restricted if that's added 10:22:18 MarvinPA: oh i see 10:22:22 since yeah, you can just turn your other casting skills off and victory dance normally 10:22:49 restricting skills from it is dumb 10:23:09 we should be trying to remove stupid exceptions from the skill system, not add them 10:23:19 well i wouldn't say dumb. especially since calling things dumb raises people's ire :P inconsistent, maybe. 10:23:20 i'd tend to agree, yeah 10:23:31 with what? 10:23:54 that adding exceptions for fighting and spellcasting isn't an ideal solution :P 10:24:27 well, why not spellcasting, but I'd rather not allow faster training of fighting until we reduce its HP bonus 10:24:30 whatever happened to the idea of tying fighting hp gain to base racial hp gain? did that get much support? 10:24:54 yes, it got much support, but it's awkard to code 10:25:00 ah okay 10:25:13 there's no formula for base hp racial gain 10:26:08 ah yeah 10:26:13 it's all weird and awkward 10:26:16 i admit that if i could turn on a thing that made fighting 3x more likely to train on one of my endless procession of DEWz's i would never turn it off. 10:26:18 h++~ 10:26:19 hp 10:26:23 on the other hand, a toggle for 3x faster training is easy to code, so that's why I'm proposing it with an exception for fighting, which should be removed later on. 10:26:32 Gabriellk (L27 HaHu) ASSERT(y >= 1 && y <= sz.y) in 'libutil.cc' at line 797 failed. (Vault:3) 10:26:38 Gabriellk (L27 HaHu) ASSERT(y >= 1 && y <= sz.y) in 'libutil.cc' at line 797 failed. (Vault:3) 10:29:54 also fighting and spellcasting are special "overall" skills. They train slowly than others and have a wider impact. I think it makes sense that you can't select them for fast training; 10:30:37 but mechanically it's not at all difficult to victory dance spellcasting, so why should it be restricted? 10:30:54 fighting you do at least have to find something to hit 10:31:45 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 10:32:45 true. So let's settle for a 3x fast toggle for a single skill with just fighting as an exception until we rebalance the HP bonus. 10:33:12 is there a plan to rebalance the HP bonus then 10:34:35 my plan is to first write a little function that dumps a table of the current progression of base HP for all races from L1 to L27. then try to find a better formula. 10:38:18 current values: DeWz 93, OgWz 148, DeBe 245, OgBe 300 (assuming Be has 27 fighting, ie, not during a 3-runer) 10:39:33 galehar: I made a table when I changed randomized values into fixed ones, but it's still interspersed with other level-up gains 10:47:35 what about just removing fighting 10:47:52 it causes all kinds of weirdness 10:48:55 we don't want casters and fighters to have the same HP. Also, what kind of weirdness are you talking about? 10:50:47 I don't like the idea of further shortening every branch by 1-3 levels, I'd rather just see them made more interesting. Some cutting is fine but I'd hate to see crawl become more like desktop dungeons in terms of length 10:51:31 We would need to make some serious cutting to reach desktop dungeons length :) 10:51:35 -!- Kurper has joined ##crawl-dev 10:51:37 true :P 10:52:32 but yes, there's not much cutting left to do. I'd rather have different monster sets (vaults!) and also more progression of difficulty within a branch 10:56:38 Eronarn: what would you want to replace it with? Having background do something more than change your starting skills and gear would move us to a class-based system. 10:56:56 and I heard more than enough about class struggle as a kid before communism fell :p 10:58:12 kilobyte: background already modifies starting HP and MP 10:58:18 more seriously, Fi/Be get 7 more hp than Wz, and 5 less mp 10:58:20 well i don't know if this is what Eronarn means but personally i think it's annoying that optimal play requires a caster to grind up fighting slowly on weak monsters 10:58:23 yeah, this is bad enough 10:59:03 optimal meaning "i don't want to get one-shotted by a lich with a crystal spear" 10:59:16 do you mean, level should give more hp but fighting less? 10:59:22 and grinding meaning, well, it takes ages to raise fighting on a deep elf 10:59:36 depends on when you start 11:00:10 i don't see it as a bad thing tbh 11:00:15 i usually start around the time i reach lair, i think 11:00:23 nor am i even convinced that casters need less HP than fighters 11:00:35 that effect can be replicated just by having fighters have much better defenses 11:00:36 uh 11:01:17 that would require a huge overhaul, larger than probably anything so far 11:01:29 no it's fair that guys fighting up close have more HP that guys zapping from afar. 11:01:43 more HP than, even 11:02:47 the skill is ill-named, too. "Fighting" sounds like something that affects mostly damage dealing, while ours is mostly "mettle". 11:03:37 I think we should simply rebalance so you get more from levelling and less from fighting. I'll try to provide numbers some day... 11:03:40 anyway, leaving 11:03:42 bye 11:03:44 -!- galehar has quit [] 11:03:45 bie! 11:08:56 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 11:18:39 -!- Zao has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:28:30 kilobyte: well, fighting does also boost your fighting, not just your HP 11:29:46 splitting it into two different skills could be one interesting approach 11:29:52 "hitting" and "being hit" 11:30:32 the latter is what gives HP, and it only trains when you get hurt in melee for large amounts of damage (checked after dodge/shields, but before armor) 11:30:48 this is dangerous for casters, who will start off with no "being hit" skill and less HP 11:31:08 and they can't just scum it up by whacking imps or whatever 11:31:46 would also be a nerf to dodge-focused melee roles, who right now train fighting just as fast as hulky brutish smashdudes 11:32:20 and with the effects spread out over two skills - you can now justify removing any special fighting exceptions 11:33:45 combine this with the ench split, and one of the proposed casting changes / spellcasting nerfs, and you'd actually wind up with a crawl with no wildly better skills (though some would still be quite inferior) 11:34:30 why "before armour"? 11:34:43 both dodging and armour stops you from being hit 11:34:54 no - armor stops you from being hurt (but you still get hit) 11:34:57 so who would end up with most hp? Ogres and trolls. 11:35:15 who, incidentally, are those who should have the most theme-wise 11:35:31 the issue with armor is that you don't want super high AC characters to now be unable to train fighting because only non-melee damage sources are hurting them 11:36:20 it's OK if dodgers or blockers gradually become worse at training up their HP, because that's more thematic 11:36:50 (though still not *great*, i think... i agree that my proposal isn't ideal, it is somewhat off-the-cuff) 11:37:47 one thing that could help is making this "Resilience" skill also affect non-HP-ness, such as ability to resist meph cloud 11:38:21 but, that might be too scummable - it would be noticeably harder to scum "high damage to HP from melee attacks" 11:38:48 IMO this kind of overhaul sounds very drastic and likely to be unbalanced. So if you are going for one either do a lot of testing or don't put it in .8. I also know I have no say in the matter 11:39:15 casmith789: i agree 11:39:33 i think we're early enough into .8 that we can try out a few more experiments though 11:39:46 .8 has been developing for ages 11:39:49 as long as we're keeping track of which ones to roll back if we don't get them done 11:39:49 .8 is due in march 11:39:57 -!- Adeon is now known as Hiding 11:39:59 most people are playing trunk not .7 because .7 is so old 11:40:02 Zaba: really? i thought it wasn't for a few more months yet 11:40:04 and march is due in a week or so 11:40:09 0.8 has had a pretty huge amount of stuff added already 11:40:13 Eronarn, yes really 11:40:22 time flies 11:40:26 (new monster: time fly) 11:41:13 ((magenta y; if it bites you, you age rapidly. has the damage-delaying effect I proposed as a chei ability!)) 11:44:04 -!- Zao has joined ##crawl-dev 12:27:42 okay, added some comments to the .8 agenda 13:07:34 too much backup 13:08:08 I have come to the conclusion that hp gain should be governed by melee skills -- this is what we do, only artificially via an extra skill 13:08:57 (Another approach would be to use stats: Str for full hp boost, Dex for half of it. But the other approach is much simpler to get in what we have already.) 13:18:21 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:18:45 dpeg: i considered that but to some extent that will even make it easier for wizardly types to scum, since they would only need to raise one skill to get both an HP boost and a weapon 13:22:31 it makes is better, because we want melee fighters to have more health 13:22:43 our choice what the function health(skill) is 13:23:19 if mediocre investment will not do, there's no problem at all 13:26:52 (btw, it is obvious that weapon training should be more expensive if it also raises health) 13:27:27 more exceptions/special cases? :/ 13:27:47 -!- monqy has joined ##crawl-dev 13:28:03 no why? 13:28:29 that's an individual parameter per skill 13:28:36 "more expensive" doesn't make much sense unless you are proposing making them work differently than other skills 13:28:38 think of Armour: that's too slow, so should be faster 13:28:56 armor isn't more expensive than other skills, it just raises slowly 13:29:11 because you train it less often 13:29:45 eronarn: some skills currently are more expensive than others 13:30:09 having an apt of 0 on two different skills doesn't mean it takes the same xp to raise them 13:30:21 I believe that we want (1) that melee fighters have more health than hunters/casters, and (2) that the Fighting skill is an unneeded crutch 13:30:35 i thought only fighting/spc/stealth/invo/evo have been different from the others at various points 13:30:49 yeah, the list is something like that 13:30:53 I forget exactly 13:30:59 right, those are special cases, and bad :P 13:31:09 we shouldn't seek to add even more special cases 13:31:23 if anything we should be trying to remove the existing ones, so that the skill system makes more sense without spoilers 13:31:53 you and i have both played a lot of crawl and if neither of us are positive which ones work differently, how does that affect someone who is new to crawl? 13:32:27 dpeg: did you read the proposal i had about splitting fighting into two skills, one for hitting things, one for being hit? 13:35:29 no 13:35:56 but I believe that there are enough parameters for weapons: the weapon itself, its skill, stats, enchantment 13:36:06 there is really no need for an overarching "fighting" skill 13:37:35 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 13:39:21 gotta leave 13:39:24 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:08:22 03dolorous * reaee43c603c4 10/crawl-ref/source/ng-restr.cc: Add spacing fix. 14:25:31 -!- edlothiol has quit [Quit: edlothiol] 14:30:06 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 14:34:53 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:43:40 -!- syllogism has quit [] 15:10:21 03j-p-e-g * r87218e4b8145 10/crawl-ref/source/ (21 files in 7 dirs): Add corner overlays for eldritch tentacles. 15:10:32 03j-p-e-g * r7b4d7bb11a5a 10/crawl-ref/source/ (12 files in 3 dirs): Add eldritch tentacle tiles clawing right out of the portal. 15:25:33 -!- paxed has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:27:03 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 15:43:16 -!- tiago has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:44:45 -!- Moriasc has joined ##crawl-dev 15:44:46 -!- tiago has joined ##crawl-dev 15:48:29 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 16:07:43 morn 16:07:59 duey 16:09:00 -!- NyaaKitty has joined ##crawl-dev 16:14:19 03j-p-e-g * r83166bf05db2 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/ (clua/lm_1way.lua des/portals/sewer.des): Revert "Use rusty sewer tile when a sewer times out." 16:16:19 https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:press <- awesome 16:16:24 moin due :) 16:18:19 neat 16:25:30 i put the link up on the main page 16:30:09 Napkin: I added all the @play articles on this page 16:30:15 strange behavior with xom and experience (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3479) by mikee 16:30:18 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 16:30:21 I saw - great :) 16:30:37 i'll let you know when i find more 16:30:43 The crawlapalooza is what brought me here, so I had to put it :) 16:30:45 reading the french article right now :) 16:30:49 hehe 16:33:22 french article from 2009 says we have GPL license :) 16:33:28 hehe, yeah 16:33:32 and only 10 devs :D 16:33:34 well, to all intents and purposes, it is GPL 16:33:42 proto-GPL, though. 16:33:43 true 16:34:05 well, yeah, better not bore the readers to death with licensing nitpicking 16:34:09 it's based on the original NetHack license which is based on the original BISON or FLEX license -- the latter having become the GPL. 16:39:17 any crawler in NY? 16:39:57 * Eronarn is in the next state over 16:46:47 nice article and cool interview :) 16:53:58 -!- TGWi has joined ##crawl-dev 17:00:05 I want to add press (it's missing a print magazine article I have a copy of) but I cannot figure out how to edit this wiki. 17:00:17 all the way at the bottom, edit this page 17:00:19 There are like twenty edit buttons and they appear to only let me edit teensy individual things? 17:00:55 exactly, the edit button in the lower-left 17:01:04 otherwise you'll be editing only a category, rax 17:01:17 Ahhhh. 17:01:28 oh, or top-left too 17:03:33 Thanks! Added. 17:04:10 cool :) 17:07:41 hey, first wiki page I'm subscribing to! 17:08:01 No so useless this wiki after all ;> 17:08:05 *not 17:16:19 03galehar * rb32c3b2f0e71 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-pathfind.cc: Reverse the monster pathfinding direction. 17:16:30 03galehar * rce229f1793cc 10/crawl-ref/ (6 files in 2 dirs): Add a time delta when the show_real_turns option is active. 17:16:33 03galehar * r2e34eaf687ec 10/crawl-ref/source/ (11 files): Clinging refactor. 17:19:04 bedtime 17:19:06 bye 17:19:09 ciao 17:19:27 -!- galehar has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:27:08 -!- Textmode has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:46:18 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 17:58:00 -!- Textmode has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:59:12 -!- eith has quit [Quit: sleep] 18:30:55 Trees block "z" spell usage even for smite targeted spells. (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3480) by Twilight 18:32:38 -!- Whitewater has joined ##crawl-dev 18:36:06 -!- Whitewater has quit [Client Quit] 18:45:38 -!- pointless_ has joined ##crawl-dev 19:04:27 -!- Mu_ has quit [Quit: Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place.] 19:15:30 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:16:18 03MarvinPA * rf8be5ed5a1b0 10/crawl-ref/source/ (itemname.cc ng-restr.cc): Rework combo recommendations (elliptic) 19:19:49 hey cool 20:22:44 -!- OG17 has quit [Quit: OG17] 20:31:30 -!- paxed has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:35:09 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 20:35:48 -!- pointless_ has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.13/20101203075014]] 21:01:24 -!- upsy has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:37:50 LordSloth (L7 MDHu) ASSERT(y >= 1 && y <= sz.y) in 'libutil.cc' at line 797 failed. (D:6) 21:37:56 LordSloth (L7 MDHu) ASSERT(y >= 1 && y <= sz.y) in 'libutil.cc' at line 797 failed. (D:6) 21:38:03 LordSloth (L7 MDHu) ASSERT(y >= 1 && y <= sz.y) in 'libutil.cc' at line 797 failed. (D:6) 21:38:11 LordSloth (L7 MDHu) ASSERT(y >= 1 && y <= sz.y) in 'libutil.cc' at line 797 failed. (D:6) 21:39:05 !lm lordsloth crash -log 21:39:06 4. LordSloth, XL7 MDHu, T:7018 (milestone): http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/LordSloth/crash-LordSloth-20110222-033812.txt 22:12:12 -!- NyaaKitty has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:28:17 -!- NyaaKitty has joined ##crawl-dev 22:31:55 -!- OG17 has joined ##crawl-dev 22:40:14 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 23:17:25 -!- NyaaKitty has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:31:21 -!- jld has quit [Quit: New kernel. Hopefully this works.] 23:32:34 Thinks a throwing net is trapping you when it isn't. (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3481) by simonj 23:44:06 -!- jld has joined ##crawl-dev 23:44:35 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:55:43 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev