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01:53:44 <greensnark> We wouldn't happen to have elliptic in credits under their real name, would we?
01:53:45 <Henzell> greensnark: You have 14 messages. Use !messages to read them.
01:53:48 <greensnark> Eek
01:54:05 <due> hahahaha
01:54:58 <RjY> :-)
01:55:45 <greensnark> So do we have CIA notification going for gitorious commits
01:55:57 <greensnark> And how long does it take, if so :)
01:56:05 * greensnark testing gitorious committage.
01:56:07 <RjY> you do
01:56:18 <CIA-26> 03greensnark * r0637a36c572b 10/crawl-ref/source/util/columnise-credits.pl: Use Unicode-aware sort for credits.
01:56:19 <due> Actually, Napkin did some crazy mojo with Git
01:56:20 <greensnark> Ah
01:56:28 <CIA-26> 03greensnark * rc2ea1241c934 10/crawl-ref/CREDITS.txt: Update credits (monqy, elliptic, RjY).
01:56:38 <due> So now  there's something on CDO which pulls and then pushes to another repository
01:56:42 <due> which has the hooks in it :)
01:56:54 <greensnark> That Napking, always with the complicated heavy machinery :)
01:56:56 <due> I do not pretend to understand how this works. :)
01:57:02 <greensnark> !coffee
01:57:03 * Henzell hands greensnark a mug of caf� au lait, brewed by Gastronok.
01:57:22 <greensnark> I noticed we got a torrent of email on c-r-d :P
01:57:34 <greensnark> And I was like totally, "Whoa, Crawl discussion has hotted up!"
01:57:36 <greensnark> And then I look :P
01:57:50 <greensnark> And it was Napking's commit email fire hose :)
01:57:53 <due> :)
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02:06:49 <greensnark> Ok, ciao, nice work on gitorious move
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02:08:56 <due> :)
02:13:29 <RjY> i still don't think i've done enough to deserve being in credits.txt but oh well
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02:36:49 <Zaba> moin
02:37:44 <Zaba> oh, the greensnark was here
02:41:56 <Zaba> kilobyte, wtf is NC_KITTEHS?
02:43:55 <Zaba> oh wait, it's used to limit the type of items that are given upon acquirement to what the species can use, right?
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03:50:08 <Napkin> moin!
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04:02:57 <due> It amuses me to *no* *end* that our three mail tile contributors all have "C" names.
04:03:00 <due> Curio, coolio and co.
04:03:04 <due> All of which end in "o".
04:03:15 <Napkin> conspiracy!
04:09:27 <due> Napkin: thanks :)
04:09:50 <Napkin> thank you :)
04:14:15 <CIA-26> 03galehar * rfd5205acb254 10/crawl-ref/source/ng-setup.cc: Whitespace fix.
04:14:26 <CIA-26> 03galehar * rc7e7ef025b5f 10/crawl-ref/source/tilereg-dgn.cc: Casting at monsters with the mouse: use proper spell validation function.
04:14:26 <CIA-26> 03galehar * ra75e0692120d 10/crawl-ref/CREDITS.txt: CREDITS: Added myself as a member of the Stone Soup Dev Team.
04:15:49 <Napkin> modified your post slightly, mainly to have it show a "more" link here: http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/category/news
04:15:52 <Napkin> due
04:17:46 <due> :)
04:17:53 <due> I am too full ofmyself to use "More" links ;)
04:18:53 <Napkin> :D
04:19:09 <Napkin> updated the credits on the website too
04:19:36 <Napkin> 23 now!
04:20:17 <Napkin> and i linked "minor frustrations" ;)
04:21:05 <due> Hah, that was just one of them :)
04:21:21 <due> The random refusing to work, random refusing to recognise privatekey authentication, random downtime...
04:21:27 <Napkin> the one bhaak gave me, which also links to a bug tracker entry
04:21:59 <Napkin> link, link, link! i'm all up for showing off evidence :)
04:22:12 <due> I don't have any, to be honest
04:22:20 <due> but yes, that was the camel which broke the needle's eye
04:22:38 <Napkin> "butting up against its limitations" - each word a link to another problem ;)
04:23:57 <due> Hehe, nah.
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04:31:37 <Napkin> http://www.gameinformer.com/b/news/archive/2010/07/22/how-software-development-should-look.aspx <- wow
04:35:23 <due> hey, cool
04:35:58 <Napkin> the video is also linked to from somewhere in this site: http://www.pelit.fi/index.php
04:36:20 <Napkin> but totally finnish, can't find the search button :D
04:36:32 <due> the little darshan is so cute
04:36:39 <Napkin> hehe
04:37:01 <due> I like how up until 0.1.7 it's basically darshan and haran
04:37:08 <Napkin> yeah
04:37:42 <Napkin> but.. still i like the git explosion best :D
04:37:59 <due> oh, there's jpeg!
04:39:01 <due> each node is a file, I assume? or a set of files?
04:39:21 <Napkin> a file
04:39:40 <Napkin> folders connected by files, dots being the files
04:40:00 <Napkin> if files haven't been modified for a while gource doesn't show them
04:40:16 <Napkin> *makes them disappear
04:40:20 <due> yeah
04:40:28 <due> i love the little dat/descript, etc, blobs :)
04:40:54 <Napkin> ennewalker causing the tiles explosion ;)
04:41:35 <due> :D
04:42:40 <Napkin> can't believe i'm playing crawl since 2.7 or something
04:42:50 <Napkin> *0.2.7
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04:42:59 <due> I started playing crawl trunk 0.4.5 in december of '0...8? switched to CAO in '09.
04:43:29 <Napkin> :)
04:44:14 <due> wheee 5.0!
04:44:24 <Napkin> yes! :D
04:45:09 <due> ... wow git
04:45:22 <Napkin> had to make it zoom out then ;D
04:45:39 <Napkin> the zoomed in camera was going crazy!
04:45:46 <due> hehehe
04:46:16 <due> '10!
04:46:18 <due> 0.6 soon
04:46:18 <due> !
04:46:53 <due> Hah, 20 Feb '2010. That was the day I finished up the last of the overhauls for boring uniques for the 0.6 branch.
04:47:00 <due> And also the day all hell broke loose RL :)
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04:47:02 <Napkin> http://www.youtube.com/user/Pedjt <- "Let's Play: DCSS" channel
04:47:25 <Napkin> :D
04:48:45 <Keskitalo> cool!
04:49:00 <Napkin> we should link that :D
04:49:01 <due> hi Keskitalo!
04:49:04 <Napkin> moin Eino :D
04:49:09 <due> i wonder if you can make gource track a single person through a project
04:49:16 <Keskitalo> Hello Marc, Jude :)
04:49:22 <Keskitalo> due: outstanding gitorious work
04:49:28 <Keskitalo> Marc too with the emails and all
04:49:34 <due> thanks! I am very pleased it went quite well :)
04:49:57 <Napkin> I should email to c-r-d and let people know how I did this mirroring stuff
04:49:58 <due> Napkin: your git-fu astounds me ;)
04:50:07 <due> Yes, that might be a good idea
04:50:31 <Napkin> ah, it was quite easy once you got the right parameter ;) a bit of trial & error
04:50:42 <Keskitalo> Napkin: http://www.pelit.fi is the site of the Pelit magazine, a games magazine (THE games magazine if you ask me)
04:50:46 <Napkin> it's git that's awesome :)
04:51:01 <Napkin> cool, could you search for the link to crawl on that site?
04:51:03 <Keskitalo> I'd hazard a guess it was linked from their forums though, I haven't noticed it in the news
04:51:09 <Napkin> should have been in september 2010
04:51:14 <Keskitalo> And the forums are subscribers-only
04:51:21 <Napkin> ah, could be, of course
04:51:47 <due> :(
04:51:56 <due> site:pelit.fi finds no relevant keywords
04:52:04 <due> cdo, dcss, dungeon crawl, crawl.develz.org, etc
04:52:07 <Napkin> youtube just says "first referral from www.pelit.fi" on Sep 29, 2010
04:52:13 <Keskitalo> I should try to market 0.8 to them, I know a reviewer
04:52:23 <due> Keskitalo: please do!
04:52:41 <Napkin> curious: can you guys see the statistics too? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NbzO78b2g4
04:52:43 <due> I need to eventually get aorund to writing that article I was waffling about
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04:53:03 <due> even if the main outlet i was goin to shop it to said 'sure! we're interessted! you can post it on our blog and here are a few peanuts' :0
04:53:04 <Napkin> have it ready for 0.8, i'd say :)
04:53:12 <due> I can't see any
04:53:26 <Keskitalo> I also have an idea about gettin the local newspaper do an article about Crawl and the usability project stuff, because it is linked with Oulu university
04:53:29 <Napkin> it's this icon right of the number of views, due
04:53:46 <due> oh
04:53:49 <due> i am blind :)
04:54:04 <Keskitalo> would need to sell that properly to someone though
04:54:05 <Napkin> found it? was about to screenshot it :)
04:54:20 <Napkin> sounds like a great idea, Keskitalo :)
04:54:25 <Keskitalo> maybe a little obscure too, not sure what the angle would be
04:55:27 <Keskitalo> we could have press releases :)
04:55:41 <Keskitalo> and get people to translate them to different languates
04:55:44 <Keskitalo> languages
04:55:46 <due> we should do press releases, actually
04:56:30 <Keskitalo> I had a thought of doing one in Finnish for 0.7, I should get off my arse and really write it for 0.8
04:56:43 <Napkin> awesome :)
04:56:52 <due> I should do a "Let's Code! DCSS".
04:57:00 <due> Maybe a blog post.
04:58:10 <Napkin> January 2011: 2.246.389 hits, 724601 pages served, 82118 visitors, 130 gb used
04:59:00 <Napkin> (excluding robots & search engines)
04:59:30 <Keskitalo> due: Let's Code! sounds awesome :D
04:59:46 <due> probably "How to make a horrible vault."
04:59:49 <Keskitalo> Napkin: Should we do a "press" wiki page and collect all these blog mentions etc?
05:00:14 <due> good idea
05:00:16 <Napkin> (robots & search engines: +1.549.398 hits, +1.514.564 pages, +60gb)
05:00:26 <Napkin> definitely
05:00:30 <Keskitalo> My LEt's Code would be "ok lets look at the code.......hm i'll grep a bit.....arr, can't figure it out, i'll surf the web instead"
05:00:42 <Napkin> nowadays, that websites keep their content for ages, it would be really cool
05:01:27 <Napkin> you guys know, that you can check https://crawl.develz.org/cgi-bin/stats.pl with your wordpress login, right?
05:01:36 <due> yes
05:01:38 <Napkin> always interesting to check referers :)
05:01:39 <due> lazy ;)
05:02:20 <Napkin> http://www.gearfuse.com/unevenly-distributed-how-i-learned-to-stop-worrying-and-love-the/ <- 1310 visitors from there
05:03:14 <Napkin> 800 from SA, 367 from wikipedia.org :D 355 from roguetemple.com, ~1640 from chaosforge wiki and crawl-ref.sf.net each
05:03:26 <due> in what elapsed period?
05:03:38 <due> forever, or...?
05:03:42 <Napkin> looking at January
05:03:50 <due> ah
05:03:51 <Napkin> but you can show stats from a whole year
05:04:11 <Napkin> takes a while though :D
05:04:44 <Napkin> haha - 579.194 visitors in 2010, 661+315gb used :D
05:05:00 <Napkin> 7mil+12mil hits :-O
05:05:52 <Napkin> 25000 from crawl-ref.sf.net, 7000 from chaosforge, 6000 from SA, 2300 from wikipedia.org.. 2000 from linux.org.ru
05:05:57 <Napkin> ok, enough stats :)
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05:06:27 <Keskitalo> A new "press" namespace?
05:06:45 <Keskitalo> otoh the press releases could be put in "planning" just as well
05:07:03 <Napkin> how would you divide the content within a separate namespace?
05:07:24 <Keskitalo> i don't know, one page would probably be enough for the links etc..
05:08:28 <Napkin> otherwise
05:08:37 <Napkin> create it as a high-up page
05:08:53 <Napkin> no need to put it so deep in the tree
05:13:33 <Keskitalo> dcss:press it is (just one page)
05:13:43 <Napkin> awesome :)
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05:19:48 <due> "An Idiot's Guide to Hacking Dungeon Crawl" :)
05:21:44 <bhaak> finally, i'm in the target group of a introduction to crawl
05:21:58 <Napkin> lol
05:22:01 <Napkin> moin bhaak :)
05:22:12 <due> hi bhaak :)
05:22:47 <bhaak> hi
05:26:24 <due> !lg min=start
05:26:26 <Sequell> 1358. bookofjude the Conjurer (L7 DECj), killed by your miscasting Bolt of Magma on D:5 on 2009-01-06, with 973 points after 6362 turns and 2:14:07.
05:27:06 <Keskitalo> https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:press
05:28:53 <Keskitalo> Only -14,2 celcius today!
05:28:53 <due> !lg sunfall min=start
05:28:53 <Sequell> 38. Sunfall the Gusty (L1 DEAE), quit the game on D:1 on 2009-01-04, with 25 points after 96 turns and 0:01:56.
05:30:22 <due> Keskitalo: cold!
05:31:55 <Keskitalo> been around -25 a few days before for a while
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05:32:21 <CIA-26> 03j-p-e-g * r9c88bc7e83b8 10/crawl-ref/source/tilepick-p.cc: Tweak a couple of background specific default doll tile sets.
05:32:33 <due> !lg min=start x=start,stop
05:32:34 <Sequell> Unknown selector stop
05:32:39 <due> !lg min=start x=start
05:32:40 <Sequell> 1358. [start=2009-01-06 [20090006043152S]] bookofjude the Conjurer (L7 DECj), killed by your miscasting Bolt of Magma on D:5 on 2009-01-06, with 973 points after 6362 turns and 2:14:07.
05:34:17 <due> !gamesby
05:34:18 <Sequell> due has played 1358 games, between 20090106 and 20110212, won 5 (0.4%), high score 1935762, total score 17219546, total turns 8757663, total time 617:45:26.
05:47:27 <due> Keskitalo: 700 words on "Let's Code Crawl!" :)
05:52:51 <Napkin> alright, mail sent - breakfast \o/
05:53:10 <Keskitalo> due: Ooh, awesome
05:53:33 <Keskitalo> hmm, headings for months separately is probably excessive
05:55:21 <Keskitalo> yay religious class reform \o/
05:55:28 <Keskitalo> both a religious reform and a class reform
05:55:39 <Keskitalo> way awesome if you ask me!
05:59:46 <Napkin> Keskitalo, talking about school system?
06:02:05 <Keskitalo> MarviPA's class tweaks
06:02:10 <Napkin> lol
06:02:18 <Napkin> :)
06:02:36 <Napkin> i tried to connect your sentences to crawl, but had trouble ;)
06:02:46 <Keskitalo> rl means roguelike to me, not real life!!
06:02:51 <Keskitalo> hehee :)
06:03:13 <Keskitalo> ooh, a greensnark commit
06:03:23 <Napkin> hehehe
06:03:31 <Napkin> yeah, paid a visit this morning :)
06:04:12 <Keskitalo> 14 messages :D
06:18:29 <CIA-26> 03j-p-e-g * r41807f2e50a6 10/crawl-ref/docs/develop/patch_guide.txt: Also update the patch guide.
06:18:29 <CIA-26> 03j-p-e-g * r4d6b3f658043 10/crawl-ref/docs/develop/git/quickstart.txt: Update git/quickstart.txt SF -> gitorious.
06:44:40 <Ashenzari> Statue tile (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3467) by Denzi
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06:55:29 <Napkin> downloads page in the wordpress updated too
06:59:37 -!- Moriasc has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.13/20101203075014]]
07:08:16 <Keskitalo> !tell galehar The ranged AI is awesome, damn the orc priests are scary now :D
07:08:17 <Henzell> Keskitalo: OK, I'll let galehar know.
07:08:27 <Zaba> they were pretty scary before, too
07:08:42 <Keskitalo> indeed
07:08:59 <Zaba> I should really try to play 0.8 once it's released
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07:35:48 <Keskitalo> kilobyte: Felids seem to have off-hand punches; is this intentional?
07:35:59 <Keskitalo> "Your punch misses the gnoll."
07:37:03 -!- Noeda is now known as Aedno
07:37:06 -!- Aedno is now known as Adeon
07:40:45 <Keskitalo> Sky beasts seem to leave a puddle of water behind. O_o
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07:44:22 <Adeon> http://www.funnyjunkz.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/05/funny-cat-picture-boxer-kitty.jpg
07:45:17 <Keskitalo> Sacrifices to Trog seem to be quite quiet.
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07:46:06 <Keskitalo> Ah, rain clouds from sky beasts, of course.
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07:51:58 <Keskitalo> @??prince ribbitt
07:51:58 <Gretell> unknown monster: "prince ribbitt"
07:52:00 <Keskitalo> @??prince ribbit
07:52:00 <Gretell> Prince Ribbit (11F) | Speed: 14 (swim: 60%) | HD: 6 | Health: 40 | AC/EV: 0/16 | Damage: 20 | Flags: amphibious, spellcaster, cold-blooded | Res: 06magic(40), 12drown | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 302 | Sp: blink; teleport self.
07:57:24 <Keskitalo> That thing where scroll of identify would show the first card of a deck would be so handy for felids.
07:59:04 <dpeg> Keskitalo: I still support it. Just ask a coder politely :)
07:59:43 <Keskitalo> kilobyte: What do you think? (:
08:00:01 <Keskitalo> btw I'm actually *playing*
08:00:05 <Keskitalo> feels sooo goood
08:00:45 <Keskitalo> rings of regeneration are really nice now that they don't cost food when inactie
08:00:46 <dpeg> hehe
08:01:15 <dpeg> Keskitalo: Yesterday, I asked Chris for the piety *'s on the main screen, and he just did it.
08:01:22 * dpeg is still happy about that.
08:01:35 <Keskitalo> He committed a patch from Arxale actually, which is just as cool of course.
08:01:49 <Keskitalo> I just commented on ##crawl that the piety display is quite nice.
08:02:24 <Keskitalo> Nice, Lair:1 was about just as difficult as D:8
08:03:08 <Keskitalo> I like how id minigame is a bit different for Felids.
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08:18:31 <Keskitalo> Hmm, scroll of fear identifies with no monsters around.
08:18:44 <Keskitalo> Actually, I do have a plant and fungus in LOS
08:19:40 <dpeg> but those aren't affected?
08:22:34 <Keskitalo> yeah, weren't
08:22:50 <Keskitalo> I got: "Nothing appears to happen. It was a scroll of fear."
08:24:27 <dpeg> oh, bug!
08:29:06 <Keskitalo> I guess I'll try to repro locally..
08:30:14 <Ashenzari> Scroll of fear autoidentifies with nothing apparently happening (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3468) by evktalo
08:31:00 <Keskitalo> Hmm, were the demonspawn scale mutations supposed to be available to other species?
08:31:08 <Keskitalo> I got bone plates and rugged brown scales.
08:31:45 <dpeg> not sure
08:31:56 <dpeg> at least some of them (the more demonic ones) should be special
08:32:17 <Keskitalo> i'd think they should be special
08:32:18 <dpeg> otoh, it is a good to replace the myriad of bland scale mutations by fewer and more meaningful ones
08:32:53 <Keskitalo> right, you got the bland scale mutations before?
08:33:02 <Keskitalo> maybe it just looks weird now that they're more flavourful
08:34:42 <dpeg> yes, perhaps
08:38:33 <dpeg> I should play the new tutorial.
08:48:12 <dpeg> also need to push the last set of new maps
08:54:10 <Napkin> moin dpeg
08:56:18 <Napkin> http://www.youtube.com/user/Pedjt <- rofl at "Axe Magic!" :D
08:56:47 <dpeg> I cannot watch youtube :)
08:57:06 <Napkin> oh, pity
08:57:18 <Napkin> someone did a series called "Let's Play: DCSS"
08:58:41 <dpeg> is it good?
08:58:53 <Napkin> it's hillarious, to be honest :D
08:59:12 <Napkin> are you at work? or why no youtube?
09:00:26 <Napkin> mountain dwarf fighter..
09:00:41 <RjY> dpeg is so old school, he does everything from an 80x25 hardware console
09:01:34 <Zaba> that sounds like something I actually do on occasion
09:03:07 <dpeg> my browser is lynx
09:03:17 <Zaba> I prefer w3m
09:03:30 <Zaba> its vi-like keys don't get broken by input fields :P
09:03:47 <Napkin> "now - a number of people seem to think that dwarves aren't any good at magic.. or if they can use magic, it's usually limited to fire or earth magic.. but no no, you see: dwarves are actually among the best magicians in the entire world! They practice a type of magic not commonly known to most people.. it's a type of magic called...: Axe magic!"
09:04:31 <dpeg> <3
09:06:15 <Napkin> "Axe Magic being a very powerful and destructive force - can quickly consume your soul! sooner or later you'll be doing nothing but using Axe Magic! And you won't be able to advance in any other skills! So, let's turn Axe Magic off in the skills screen.." :D
09:07:41 <Napkin> "In order to use Axe Magic, you first have to find an Axe Magic Spell! And we start with one in our inventory.. it's called a +0, +0 dwarven hand axe spell!"
09:07:53 <Napkin> anyways, worth a watch, me thinks :)
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09:08:35 <Napkin> All that with Total Annihilation's World Domination song in the background ;)
09:18:14 <Napkin> Axomancer!
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09:32:28 <Gretell> dazzle (L1 DDHe) ASSERT(y >= 1 && y <= sz.y) in 'libutil.cc' at line 797 failed. (D:1)
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09:34:45 <kilobyte> Keskitalo: felid off-hand punches: mechanics are ok (there's more than one paw in action, the species seems to be well-balanced now), but calling it a "punch" is obviously wrong
09:35:01 <kilobyte> Napkin: Axe Magic <3
09:35:16 <Napkin> absolutely :D
09:35:49 <kilobyte> although, I prefer the "huge troll-sized cudgel" school :)
09:35:56 <kilobyte> aka "shillelagh diplomacy"
09:36:21 <Napkin> hehehe
09:36:56 <kilobyte> speaking of shillelaghs... what do you think about one-off weapons which are renames of a similar base type (like captain's cutlass being a sabre)
09:37:44 <Napkin> more flavor sounds nice
09:38:19 <Napkin> good example there, because there are so few short blades
09:38:25 * kilobyte ponders a shillelagh (club) loaded with a good deal of earth magic... ie, a Shatter-like (sans digging) effect on hit
09:38:26 <Napkin> same with staves
09:38:57 <dpeg> kilobyte: special words for unrandarts or fixedarts are fine
09:38:59 <Napkin> maces could definitely do with a bit more attractivity too
09:39:20 <dpeg> I guess the description should say what the base type is, to make assessment easier.
09:39:31 <kilobyte> I hate the "this fixedart sucks, it has a weak base type" approach
09:39:49 <dpeg> Singing Sword needs help
09:39:52 <kilobyte> a club can be good if it has a good proc
09:40:02 <dpeg> yes
09:40:11 <kilobyte> yeah, great flavour, useless otherwise
09:42:24 <CIA-26> 03dpeg * r9836a0797502 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/tutorial/tutorial_lesson3.des: Typo fix.
09:43:43 <Eronarn> it's ok, at least it has a decent (though not great) base type
09:58:18 <CIA-26> 03j-p-e-g * r53592cd52e10 10/crawl-ref/source/rltiles/ (169 files in 13 dirs): Rename dc-mon/kraken directory to dc-mon/tentacles.
09:58:29 <CIA-26> 03j-p-e-g * r422bc215a3f5 10/crawl-ref/source/ (38 files in 5 dirs): Add psyshvl's eldritch tentacle tiles, or at least the first batch.
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11:08:13 <Napkin> uhmm... I just had an Erica with a runed Scimitar - as always.. and after killing her I find no Scimitar?
11:08:33 <Napkin> is intention or a known bug?
11:10:04 <Napkin> ok, she switched her weapon with something on the ground. I had to walk over every pile of stuff - ctrl+x didn't show it
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11:29:16 <dpeg> THERESA MAAARIA HELGA JOHANN DAVID WERNA= TMHJDW PLOOG!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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11:39:36 <Eronarn> o_O
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11:46:37 <TGWi> did dpeg break?
11:46:51 <TGWi> :(
11:47:21 <RjY> keyboards are like medicines, they need to be kept out of reach of children
11:47:52 <RjY> and cats
11:52:37 <Napkin> dpeg :D
11:59:41 <dpeg> children!! §!"§$&:;
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12:22:18 <Keskitalo> nonono
12:22:30 <Keskitalo> consider timecircuit's cat
12:22:37 <TGWi> :P
12:22:42 <Keskitalo> it's all good!
12:23:04 <TGWi> did henzell actually name demons by cats?
12:23:10 <TGWi> or is that just a rumour
12:27:03 <Keskitalo> i like "punching the keyboard" tale
12:27:52 <Napkin> arg! My bolt of penetration seems to have killed a sleeping monster out of LOS - and now i'm under TSO's penenace
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12:28:20 <Napkin> will that hold long?
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12:45:13 <Napkin> well, 1700 turns
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13:29:31 <Eronarn> oooh
13:29:39 <Eronarn> i spy horrors in enum.h :D
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13:42:30 <Eronarn> huh, neat
13:42:36 <Eronarn> yred enslave works on drowning kills
13:42:51 <Eronarn> not sure why death channel doesn't though
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14:07:48 <Eronarn> ahahah yessss. SPIDER SWARMS CLING.
14:18:57 <MarvinPA> does anyone have any particular opinions on the idea of removing banishment as a spell and just having it be a lugonu thing?
14:20:04 <TGWi> warp weapon too imo, especially since it's awful
14:20:23 <MarvinPA> monsters can still cast it because why not, lugonu hates the player or whatever
14:20:46 <TGWi> banishment I'm a bit iffy about because I think it actually gets used
14:20:52 <TGWi> plus yeah it's a monster spell
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14:22:03 <Eronarn> MarvinPA: make banishment higher level, more effective, and with a drawback
14:22:19 <Eronarn> it's a cool/thematic spell, but spells that replicate god powers should feel different than them
14:22:51 <monqy> how is warp weapon awful
14:23:50 <TGWi> it's level 7 unless marvinpa changed it
14:23:56 <monqy> level 5 now, yes
14:24:02 <MarvinPA> 5 now
14:24:07 <Eronarn> here's one potential drawback: keep a counter of "abyssal meddling" for non-lugonites that never fully decrements. if it gets too high, when you banish something, you might draw the attention of the abyss
14:24:19 <Eronarn> or perhaps the abyss itself becomes more dangerous the more you've cast banish
14:24:30 <TGWi> imo make lu banishment more interesting rather than the spell
14:25:27 <calavera> is there a way to automatically generate a source/util/release_ver file so the build will complete even without access to git?
14:25:29 <MarvinPA> i only really ever saw people using spell banishment for mummies
14:25:44 <MarvinPA> and they have no potion curse now so no need
14:26:09 <elliptic> banishment is strong against other stuff too
14:26:24 <monqy> giant spores, guardian mummies (hate that damage/slowing/decay)
14:26:28 <MarvinPA> i'm not entirely against removing warp weapon though since i think holy/pain/distortion should actually be rare and mainly unique to TSO/kiku/lugonu
14:26:53 <calavera> i'm trying to add a --HEAD option to the homebrew install formula and homebrew copies the source to a staging directory before compiling
14:26:58 <MarvinPA> i don't disagree that it's strong but i'd still like to see it just be a lugonu thing :P
14:27:01 <monqy> warp weapon has the drawback of being entirely safe to unwield
14:28:36 <elliptic> if you are going to remove these tloc spells, please buff golubria to compensate :P
14:28:56 <MarvinPA> i'd like to do that too, yeah :P
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14:29:20 <MarvinPA> not sure exactly how though
14:29:37 <MarvinPA> or if due has any plans for it (was it due who implemented it?)
14:29:51 <galehar> hi
14:29:52 <Henzell> galehar: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it.
14:30:00 <galehar> !messages
14:30:00 <Henzell> (1/1) Keskitalo said (7h 21m 44s ago): The ranged AI is awesome, damn the orc priests are scary now :D
14:30:07 <galehar> :)
14:30:11 <calavera> anyone around that build expertise?
14:30:21 <monqy> MarvinPA: it was doy
14:30:22 <elliptic> marvinpa: making it L4 and somewhat longer duration might be enough
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14:30:35 <MarvinPA> aha so it was
14:30:46 <MarvinPA> three letter names beginning with d, close enough
14:31:03 <elliptic> or I had an idea of making it possible to have more than two portals open at a time
14:31:13 <elliptic> and then it would use a random exit portal
14:40:21 <Eronarn> MarvinPA: so you're gonna commit swarms when i send you the patch, right :>
14:41:09 <dpeg> MarvinPA: what's wrong with the Banish Other spell?
14:41:28 <MarvinPA> i don't have a huge problem with it, i just quite like the idea of it being a lugonu-only thing
14:42:05 <MarvinPA> i'm not too attached to the idea, just wanted to see what others thing about it
14:42:09 <Eronarn> MarvinPA: it's a problem that they're the same; having two banishing effects is fine though
14:42:18 <MarvinPA> think*
14:42:23 <Eronarn> of course, if we can't think of two good ones, the spell should go
14:42:30 <Mu_> lot of vitriol @ SA regarding the starting kit changes
14:42:54 <MarvinPA> sweet, i made SA angry?
14:42:57 <Eronarn> Mu_: if we'd added Messiah like i said they'd be swooning over it
14:43:08 <MarvinPA> oh, can't view the topic anymore
14:43:10 <Eronarn> ORC JESUS, TAKE ME IN YOUR STRONG ARMS~~~
14:43:11 <galehar> Mu_: really? Players are angry? I guess we should revert ASAP! ;)
14:43:44 <dpeg> just read the backlog
14:43:53 <elliptic> do they all play merfolk on SA or something?
14:44:00 <dpeg> :)
14:44:20 <Mu_> dunno, lot of it is about losing M as a starting god
14:44:47 <dpeg> That's a good one, don't even start worrying about it.
14:44:56 <elliptic> oh, "starting kit" meant items to me
14:45:08 <dpeg> btw, the two banishments are not the same, iiuc
14:45:40 <MarvinPA> hm, i thought they were
14:46:01 <galehar> speaking of starting kit, danr on the forum has been asking to give the quaterstaff option to monks. I like it.
14:46:03 <MarvinPA> other than mp/piety costs and stuff
14:46:18 <dpeg> galehar: yes, I supported it there
14:46:33 <dpeg> MarvinPA: I think the spell checks MR but the ability does not.
14:46:48 <MarvinPA> the god ability definitely checks MR
14:47:06 <elliptic> they both just use ZAP_BANISHMENT with some power
14:47:15 <MarvinPA> i just won an abyssal knight so it's fresh in my mind :)
14:47:17 <dpeg> ah, then that was just a plan...
14:47:25 <dpeg> ...or the damnation card is different :)
14:47:46 <elliptic> damnation card is very different, I don't know exactly how it works though
14:47:48 <dpeg> Mu_: cannot read SA right now
14:47:59 <elliptic> I think it still checks MR though...
14:48:18 <dpeg> elliptic: I believe that one creature always has to go with the card
14:48:34 <MarvinPA> i don't think it checks MR
14:48:37 <dpeg> MarvinPA: I had to fight a lot just get rid of self-banishing via spell
14:48:38 <elliptic> yeah, it doesn't check MR
14:48:40 <elliptic> just checked
14:49:08 <dpeg> MarvinPA: so your proposal might be just right
14:49:22 <dpeg> also note that banishment and warp weapon are older than Lugonu
14:50:08 <monqy> is any of the new lugonu deal implementable or is it all waiting on the wrath overhaul (and if so, is any of the wrath overhaul implementable)
14:50:54 <dpeg> monqy: yes on the latter
14:51:50 <dpeg> wrath overhaul is implementable, but needs a dedicated coder (who is willing to think through design) -- it is not fleshed out to the last bit (wrath is just so big)
14:53:01 <dpeg> monqy: do I read a certain interesting between those lines?
14:53:07 <dpeg> s/ing//
14:54:11 <monqy> I'm not sure I can dedicate to it but it does look interesting, yes
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14:55:39 <dpeg> monqy: if you feel up to it, drop me an email, ok?
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14:57:50 <elliptic> hm, I never knew how damnation worked before... the mechanics of it are a little strange
14:58:13 <elliptic> basically you have a 1/(n+1) chance of being banished if there are n monsters in sight
14:59:02 <elliptic> this means that if you want to draw through escape decks in higher safety, you should spam butterflies or spammals or something like that first
14:59:07 <dpeg> elliptic: yes, I designed it, I know :)
14:59:27 <elliptic> it seems bad that you can game it with summons though
15:03:01 <dpeg> you can?
15:04:11 <elliptic> like I said, optimal play if you want to draw through an escape deck for piety is to summon as many butterflies as possible first
15:04:22 <elliptic> because they count for lowering chance of banishment
15:04:36 <Eronarn> it should probably just have a separate, low chance of banishing you regardless of what it banishes on screen
15:05:30 -!- TGWi1 is now known as TGWi
15:07:14 <dpeg> elliptic: seems like a bug that summons are considered
15:07:34 <elliptic> dpeg: yeah
15:07:51 <elliptic> eronarn: but it is good that the mechanic encourage using it with more monsters around
15:08:30 <dpeg> elliptic: that's exactly the idea
15:11:56 <due> morning
15:12:13 <dpeg> hi
15:15:34 <dpeg> MarvinPA: I agree with your approach to the Banishment spell.
15:17:03 <dpeg> I am not so sure about Warp Weapon. While that spell is proplematic, I would like to make Maxwell's Silver Hammer a spell which gives hammers (only) the holy ego. Perhaps we can find something good for Warp Weapon as well?
15:17:36 <TGWi> if you want to keep it you should at least change the flavour
15:17:45 <TGWi> atm it's a bland pop culture reference
15:19:15 <TGWi> plus there's already a silver brand that does something completely different
15:20:53 <dpeg> Need to ask Eino what "silver" means these days, but a proper silver hammer would also be okay. And yes, it is goofy humor, but I believe the spell would have an interesting niche.
15:21:15 <TGWi> it's not goofy humour
15:21:20 <TGWi> it's a spell that has the same name as a song
15:22:15 <dpeg> won't discuss
15:22:23 <TGWi> ok
15:23:44 <Eronarn> just what we need, another brand spell
15:24:37 <due> denzi's tiles <3
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15:34:39 <syllogism> is this new http://img.waffleimages.com/444103270d72bef1e63a0eafbb3a49761942b307/trove.PNG
15:34:50 <TGWi> yes
15:35:03 <syllogism> I guess it's somewhat interesting
15:37:33 <Eronarn> typo, 1927 in mon-place.cc
15:37:39 <due> yes, ellipti <3
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15:43:19 <due> bhaak: I espy you on bash.org :)
15:46:51 <bhaak> due: I know :)
15:47:25 <galehar> due: I thought more about my idea to add mid to monster_info. I think it's worth it.
15:47:46 <galehar> We already have special cases in the monster_info constructor for rakasha, mara and mislead
15:48:14 <galehar> for fake monsters, we give the same id has monster. For mislead, we don't give any id.
15:49:02 <galehar> result: we suppose that the player is able to distinguish individual monsters (barring exceptions)
15:50:11 <galehar> we can clean the map_knowledge. We remove every "remembered position" for all monsters in LOS.
15:50:39 <galehar> no more "trailing" of monsters pursuing you at the edge of your LOS
15:51:14 <galehar> each monster get a single "remembered position", which is the last place you see it. Older ones are cleared.
15:51:37 <galehar> It should be especially good for playing with allies
15:52:46 <MarvinPA> dpeg: do you have any thoughts on removing reavers? there's loads of discussion on the wiki with no particularly clear conclusion, i think i have a pretty solid proposal for improving the magic backgrounds now though
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15:53:40 <due> galehar: There's still the issue of mid being sequential though.
15:53:53 <due> Alternaltely
15:53:57 <galehar> what's the issue?
15:53:57 <due> We can just give them a hash of the mid.
15:54:14 <due> That way you know that it's unique, but you don't know whether it was generated before some other monster.
15:54:33 <dpeg> MarvinPA: you have free reign. Ask around to know what other developers think, but you can probably go ahead.
15:55:03 <due> MarvinPA: going bback and undoing your changes is relatively cheap, especially if the change garners attention that has been lacking for something.
15:55:23 <galehar> but who cares in which order monsters are generated? I can't imagine any exploit.
15:55:43 <MarvinPA> okay, my current plan is to consolidate the minor magic books into a single book for wizards, and to remove reavers
15:55:58 <dpeg> MarvinPA: awesome
15:56:09 <galehar> Also, for now, the player don't have direct access to monster_info. So if it's a problem, we can hash the mid once we implement client/server.
15:56:20 <monqy> MarvinPA: are you doing anything about Cj?
15:56:23 <dpeg> I guess SA will not be amused, but we cannot read them at this moment anyway.
15:56:27 <due> galehar: well, yes, but we should comment about it somewhere at least
15:56:48 <due> galehar: also, i can't think of a specific issue now -- but i'm sure that someone will come up with something if the monster generationn order is available.
15:56:55 <MarvinPA> monqy: i'm tweaking cj[ice] a little but i think leaving cj as-is with a choice of books is actually okay
15:57:33 <MarvinPA> at least for the moment, since there's no really good proposal for a unified conjurer book
15:57:35 <galehar> due: ok, if I implement it, I'll put a comment about the need to hash it.
15:58:34 <galehar> What's the motivation for removing reavers?
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15:59:14 <MarvinPA> they have the same book choice as conjurers but are worse casters in return for just starting with a melee weapon
16:00:10 <MarvinPA> the reaver playstyle is more something that you branch into a bit later, once you have your spells reliably castable and can easily pick up a weapon from wherever
16:00:32 <galehar> ok
16:01:07 <TGWi> would that give us 27 classes?
16:01:19 <TGWi> oh, no, the divine classes were split
16:01:24 <MarvinPA> 28 i think, sorry :P
16:01:35 <TGWi> marvinpa ruining crawl some more :P
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16:06:42 <dpeg> sleep here, later!
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16:26:15 <due> hi stabwound
16:26:16 <Eronarn> ew, getting the kill attribution code working is going to suckkk
16:26:24 <due> Eronarn: for?
16:26:28 <Eronarn> due: swarms
16:26:47 <Eronarn> it all relies on mindex & checking menv
16:26:53 <due> :)
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16:42:24 <CIA-26> 03MarvinPA * r09dac4da8a58 10/crawl-ref/source/book-data.h: Give Cj[ice] Lightning Bolt instead of Freezing Cloud
16:42:45 <CIA-26> 03MarvinPA * r1cc687962fc2 10/crawl-ref/ (9 files in 3 dirs): Remove Reavers at the next major save version
16:42:49 <CIA-26> 03MarvinPA * r10d056910b87 10/crawl-ref/ (settings/init.txt source/initfile.cc): Remove unused options from init.txt
16:42:51 <CIA-26> 03MarvinPA * r577aba873bd6 10/crawl-ref/source/ng-setup.cc: Always start Wz with magic dart memorised
16:42:56 <CIA-26> 03MarvinPA * r9f5e1ebbc713 10/crawl-ref/source/book-data.h: Conjure Flame instead of Throw Flame for book of Minor Magic
16:43:13 <CIA-26> 03MarvinPA * ra057bea396d6 10/crawl-ref/source/ng-setup.cc: Give Stalkers a bit more Tmut skill
16:43:30 <CIA-26> 03MarvinPA * r1c3772e603af 10/crawl-ref/ (12 files in 4 dirs): Consolidate the books of Minor Magic into a single book
16:43:42 <CIA-26> 03MarvinPA * rb2fe2adde752 10/crawl-ref/source/spl-data.h: Reduce Slow to level 2
16:43:55 <CIA-26> 03MarvinPA * r6b4fb9138bc3 10/crawl-ref/source/ (book-data.h spl-data.h): Reduce Passage of Golubria to level 4
16:45:45 <Eronarn> <3 minor magic change
16:46:23 <MarvinPA> :)
16:47:32 <MarvinPA> cj[ice] is sort of more like cj[air] now but i think the books are pretty well-defined and distinct from the elementalists, which is the main thing
16:49:27 <OG17> why'd you go with imps?  That means you can't use wz as a summoning start with good gods
16:49:28 <due> this is hilarious
16:49:40 <due> I just described clua as client lua, and dlua as dungeon Lua
16:49:46 <due> but in dat/clua you find the dungeon lua markers
16:49:50 <due> and in dat/lua you find the clua code <3
16:51:08 <MarvinPA> you can use summoner as a summoning start with good gods i guess?
16:51:14 <OG17> also don't get why cloud turns into bolt
16:51:23 <OG17> it was nice having two options though
16:51:24 <elliptic> imp is a more wizard-y spell IMO
16:51:36 <TGWi> imp is more wizardy
16:51:48 <TGWi> ccf isn't as much
16:52:01 <TGWi> and I don't know why wz being usable with good gods is important
16:52:11 <elliptic> you can't use ccf in a starting book without a lower-level spell, too
16:52:13 <monqy> new felid-summoning spell, rename class to witch
16:52:13 <due> TGWi: because eveything must be compatible with EVERYTHIN ELSE OMg.
16:52:14 <TGWi> rather, why one specific spell of wz being usable with good gods is important
16:52:16 <OG17> there's been a push to summon with good gods
16:52:22 <TGWi> due: let's add ice-distill
16:52:27 <monqy> hex/summ
16:52:30 <TGWi> su can summon with good gods though
16:52:36 <elliptic> the alternative is spammals, which is the Su iconic spell
16:52:50 <OG17> no other playstyle is bound to only one class
16:52:54 <TGWi> also yeah it's castable without a level 1 spell
16:53:00 <OG17> mammals isn't iconic su, how does that work
16:53:08 <elliptic> "summon with good gods" <- one of the major crawl playstyles now!
16:53:09 <due> ...
16:53:11 <MarvinPA> almost everything in su works with good gods so yeah
16:53:12 <OG17> until today it was in two wizard starting books
16:53:15 <OG17> "summoning"
16:53:26 <monqy> it was more iconic when it summoned legions of orange rats
16:53:56 <TGWi> are we having a heated discussion about whether wz should be able to summon under good gods out of its starting book
16:54:05 <kilobyte> uhm, Re are a class that made a lot of sense
16:54:24 <kilobyte> far more than the redundancy of Cj/4*E/Wz
16:54:31 <OG17> seriously
16:54:33 <elliptic> kilobyte: Re was a bad Cj
16:54:41 <OG17> also a bad melee class
16:54:41 <monqy> Cj was a limited Elementalist
16:54:53 <MarvinPA> reaver works as a playstyle but not on D:1, i'd say
16:55:01 <TGWi> elementalists aren't redundant other than that they all have elementalist in their name
16:55:39 <kilobyte> they are not redundant to each others -- it's them vs Cj
16:55:49 <OG17> it would be cool if cj died too
16:55:53 <kilobyte> while Re is an unique niche
16:55:55 <TGWi> they're not redundant with cj either
16:56:05 <kilobyte> I'd say, let's restore Re and axe Cj instead.
16:56:07 <elliptic> Re is not a unique niche, it felt just like Cj except worse
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16:56:11 <OG17> re is not a niche, it's a caster with bad casting skills and a weapon
16:56:22 <TGWi> it's not a "unique niche" if it has the same book as another class
16:56:33 <monqy> imo: kill cj, merge fi/gl/mo
16:56:34 <Eronarn> cj book: magic dart, imb, iood, two new pure conj spells
16:56:38 <Eronarn> let's do it
16:56:51 <xyblor> I heard there's whining going on, so I wanted to tune in
16:56:54 <monqy> a level 7 annihilations-exclusive spell in a starting book?
16:56:59 <Eronarn> monqy: hell yeah bro
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16:57:09 <OG17> the two new spells are eight and nine
16:57:16 <elliptic> (mana storm)
16:57:27 <Eronarn> 1, 4, 7, 10, 13
16:57:30 <Eronarn> so they are nice and evenly spaced
16:57:35 <RjY> mass iood, launch an iood at everything you can see
16:57:42 <MarvinPA> in my experience reaver as a background is pretty weak and i'd always rather go Cj and take a weapon later, anyway
16:57:45 <TGWi> ioodstorm
16:57:51 <monqy> make it happen
16:58:05 <kilobyte> want a pure spell damage char?  That's *E.  Re are an interesting hybrid, like Hu but with spells instead of bows.
16:58:18 <elliptic> kilobyte: except that's not how Re plays
16:58:24 <OG17> or how elementalists play
16:58:30 <Eronarn> i don't think anyone here dislikes the idea of hybrid classes
16:58:31 <elliptic> Re plays like Cj with less int and only one starting MP
16:58:32 <Eronarn> re just sucks
16:58:42 <OG17> seeing how three of four of them are hybrid classes
16:58:47 <kilobyte> monqy: no one uses iood these days, if you can get Annihilations you have access to better spells
16:58:51 <OG17> 2.5 of four
16:58:57 <MarvinPA> IE and AE are already aimed as hybrids, yeah
16:59:08 <monqy> kilobyte: improve iood, then?
16:59:10 <MarvinPA> and FE somewhat with range 1 sticky flame i suppose
16:59:18 <OG17> I was looking at stoneskin but yeah
16:59:27 <Eronarn> making iood actually help in corridors would... help
16:59:28 <OG17> FE needs work still
16:59:44 <OG17> a range one spell doesn't make a conjurer a hybrid
16:59:47 <Eronarn> the 'it comes out of one of your hands so it has an angle and hits the wall' thing is pretty dumb
16:59:48 <kilobyte> monqy: this is an option, but since we have many powerful spells, I think it might be better to improve availability instead
17:00:06 <TGWi> Eronarn: imo the inaccuracy should go now that it needs range to power up
17:00:19 <Eronarn> oh, also, i think it could stand to be a touch slower
17:00:20 <OG17> the inaccuracy is interesting though
17:00:23 <CIA-26> 03j-p-e-g * raac74fd3b4fa 10/crawl-ref/source/rltiles/dc-feat.txt: Fix tiles compilation.
17:00:26 <Eronarn> it's pretty zoomy right now
17:00:28 <OG17> as far as tunnels go
17:00:33 <CIA-26> 03j-p-e-g * r4dcdf870d6b3 10/crawl-ref/source/ (4 files in 2 dirs): Tweak the spellcasting tutorial, as per galehar's suggestions.
17:00:44 <Eronarn> i think it should also not be an auto-hit if it enters your tile
17:00:49 <elliptic> kilobyte: basically the problem with Re was that it clearly made sense to focus on getting the magic usable early game, hardly using melee at all... and by the time you seriously start using/training melee, you'll have found a better weapon than that +0 starting weapon
17:01:48 <OG17> autohit is fine, the thing's hardly guaranteed to reach the target at all
17:01:48 <kilobyte> I'd say the opposite: you use mostly melee but aid yourself with magic
17:01:52 <OG17> speed is good too
17:02:01 <kilobyte> unlike the pillar dancing fest that pure conjurators are
17:02:03 <OG17> with the cj book, what
17:02:05 <elliptic> kilobyte: that's not how they play when anyone else plays them
17:02:13 <elliptic> 1 MP just means more pillar dancing
17:02:29 <elliptic> also melee chars do tons of pillar dancing too
17:03:10 <TGWi> (imo more starting mp for magic classes)
17:03:14 <Eronarn> OG17: well at the current damage/MP sure, but i think the flavorful orbiness of the spell would benefit, so i'd rather make it feel cooler first and then change its numbers around to make it worth using (since it already isn't usually worth using so there's not much to lose)
17:03:27 <OG17> orb is already the coolest spell in the game
17:03:34 <OG17> maybe
17:03:57 <Eronarn> it's ok, it just feels a little bit off from where it should be to me, though
17:03:57 <elliptic> kilobyte: I do think there might be potential for a reaverish starting class, but it should be made from scratch with a new book, etc
17:04:16 <OG17> it would look at lot like crusader
17:04:19 <OG17> a lot
17:04:32 <elliptic> og17: not necessarily
17:04:38 <OG17> in theme at least
17:04:48 <Eronarn> two melee/magic hybrid classes look similar???
17:04:51 <Eronarn> nooooooo
17:05:01 <OG17> "magic" isn't "crusader"
17:05:15 <OG17> there's no need for a dedicated cj/melee start
17:05:20 <OG17> so it'd be support abilities
17:05:22 <Eronarn> there is no need for any start
17:05:26 <kilobyte> elliptic: improving the book is a good idea, yeah
17:05:34 <Eronarn> a cj/melee start would be fun though
17:05:48 <TGWi> kilobyte: adding classes back in when they're not bad is an option it turns out
17:05:49 <OG17> then start as cj/whatever and pick up a weapon
17:05:58 <TGWi> remember when dk came back
17:05:59 <Eronarn> that is not a cj/melee start
17:06:00 <TGWi> yesterday
17:06:04 <Eronarn> that is a cj start where you pick up a weapon
17:06:16 <OG17> it's the same thing except that you're actually good at casting
17:06:18 <Eronarn> a cj/melee start should be a) decent at conj at start b) decent at weapons at start
17:06:20 <OG17> has re taught us nothing
17:06:26 <Eronarn> re was neither but that doesn't mean it's not possible
17:07:54 <Eronarn> some cool conj effects for a melee class would be stuff like static discharge, a damage shield, a conj-based debuff
17:08:33 <OG17> so, support abilities
17:08:40 <monqy> sticky flame & poison magic are like debuffs except they do damage instead of debuffing
17:08:45 <OG17> and discharge which is already in a hybrid-friendly class
17:08:47 <monqy> conjure flame too
17:09:09 <elliptic> mephitic cloud *is* a conj-based debuff
17:09:15 <monqy> that too
17:09:20 <elliptic> if you really want one
17:09:37 <TGWi> sting, throw flame, meph, conjure flame, sticky flame
17:10:07 <Eronarn> elliptic: too many books with meph cloud already
17:10:09 <elliptic> problem is these books start sounding megaoverpowered quickly
17:10:12 <elliptic> yes
17:10:13 <TGWi> :P
17:11:03 <Eronarn> an example of a conj based debuff: you make bonds of fire that shackle your enemy (like a net + some fire damage each turn)
17:11:16 <monqy> "really sticky flame"
17:11:21 <Eronarn> or firing icicles that pin a target to a wall
17:11:22 <elliptic> sticky flaming nets
17:11:33 <monqy> it sticks monsters to the floor
17:11:41 <RjY> allow conjure flame to be cast on things
17:11:44 <due> "fibrin glue"!
17:11:49 <MarvinPA> i liked the idea of an earth spell that conjures chains from the ground and acts like a net or something
17:11:56 <MarvinPA> maybe pulls fliers down
17:12:07 <due> gravity <3
17:12:20 <due> why am i even awake, I am miserably ill :(
17:12:31 <RjY> you don't seem miserable
17:12:32 * due blows nose and tries not to get too much snot in crawl's internals.
17:12:34 <OG17> it's hardly impossible to come up with new hybrid classes but it's hard to figure out why you would when every caster in the game can trivially become a hybrid
17:12:34 <Eronarn> due: so you can clone swarm branch from github and try it out :D
17:12:40 <OG17> also clearly chains are earth/tmut :|
17:12:40 <Eronarn> OG17: because fun
17:12:49 <due> Eronarn: meh, switch to gitorious
17:12:55 <Ashenzari> Shedu Tile improvement/Consistency fix (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3469) by Curio
17:12:58 <due> OG17: didn't you get the memo? earth/tmut is over
17:13:03 <OG17> it's fun for a class to be intentinoally pigeonholed?
17:13:10 <OG17> I can't type tonight
17:13:10 <due> (HOORAY! LONG LIVE THE ... EARTHTUT DEATH)
17:13:23 <Eronarn> due: speaking of earth/tmut, leda's should really just affect monster move speed :|
17:13:23 <OG17> long live earth/tmut
17:13:26 <OG17> yes
17:13:30 <due> yeah
17:13:46 <due> i am going to fix that eventually
17:13:55 <due> however currently i am writing a guide to crawl development for idiots like myself
17:13:58 <Eronarn> fix monsters moving in shallow water while you're at it
17:14:04 <OG17> yes
17:14:30 <RjY> hmm, why does it matter where his repo is...
17:14:43 <OG17> side note, wouldn't lightning bolt be better in air than in cj ice?
17:14:55 <OG17> or is this an attempt to make cj fire look vaguely appealing
17:15:23 <Eronarn> RjY: it doesn't
17:15:42 <kilobyte> Conj doesn't do debuffs, Conj debuffs you by reducing your hp.
17:15:57 <kilobyte> due: which of new spells should be added to Xom's list?  Leda certainly.
17:16:02 <Eronarn> kilobyte: conj doesn't do debuffs except for the debuffs it already does
17:16:02 <due> kilobyte: definitely
17:16:14 <due> RjY: it doesn't, but if it's on gitorious that means he could justt clone our repo there :D
17:16:44 <Eronarn> https://github.com/Eronarn/Crawling-Chaos/tree/swarms here's swarms on github, anyways, they work except for a few (mostly cosmetic) bugs
17:16:47 <RjY> oh i see, you want eleventy billion forks on gitorious ;-)
17:16:58 <Eronarn> will post a patch too
17:18:53 * due fetches the hazmat kit
17:24:15 <CIA-26> 03galehar * r9e8621d460c6 10/crawl-ref/source/ (newgame.cc ng-restr.cc ng-setup.cc): Add quarterstaff as an option for monks.
17:25:17 <due> <3!
17:25:19 <due> I like that idea.
17:25:58 -!- eith has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
17:26:24 <galehar> it's been discussed on the forum
17:26:24 <galehar> https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=634
17:28:00 <due> i don' tead teh forum :)
17:28:06 <due> *I don't read the forum
17:28:54 <galehar> That's why I'm telling you :)
17:29:03 <galehar> anyway, bedtime
17:29:05 <galehar> bye
17:29:06 <MarvinPA> i still think doublehanded weapons could do with getting something cool properly implemented, for staves to be a more interesting weapon class
17:29:23 <MarvinPA> but quarterstaff for monks is nice enough
17:29:29 <MarvinPA> and nn :)
17:29:33 -!- galehar has quit []
17:30:34 <due> bye :)
17:32:09 <Eronarn> due: actually, I think you will be surprised. this code is much better than the recite code
17:32:15 <Eronarn> it's even commented!
17:32:20 <due> gosh!
17:33:01 <Ashenzari> Swarming monsters (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3471) by Eronarn
17:33:01 <Ashenzari> TSO altar vault w/ angel can have teleport trap inside (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3470) by mikee
17:34:02 <Eronarn> MarvinPA: i'd like to revamp aux attacks as a whole some time
17:34:20 <due> I would like  to finish overhauling monster attack flavours
17:34:23 <monqy> I'd like to revamp melee combat as a whole
17:34:28 <Eronarn> monqy: good luck with that
17:36:19 <Eronarn> MarvinPA: one approach would be: your free hand gets aux attacks (1 hand), helps wield the weapon if able (1.5 hand), must help wield the weapon (2 hand), is used to make off-hand weapon attacks (double weapon), makes shield bashes (shield)
17:36:54 <kilobyte> Eronarn: aux attacks are bad, let's follow the original plan instead
17:36:56 <Eronarn> this would be something one would want to pair with making aux attacks relevant beyond early game
17:37:05 <Eronarn> kilobyte: what's the original plan? i was not aware there was one
17:37:07 <kilobyte> which predates DCSS
17:37:33 <kilobyte> you are supposed to get two weaker attacks instead of one strong one if your skills are good enough
17:38:31 <kilobyte> to me, it seems that it might be better to have the character automatically select one strong blow when it would be advantageous (very high AC targets)
17:38:57 <kilobyte> that's why quarterstaves, lajatangs and dire flails have such pathethic damage
17:39:33 <kilobyte> "very rare" weapons which have smaller damage 2-handed than some 1.5-handers
17:39:41 <Napkin> ooh... one more class gone? :(
17:40:11 <MarvinPA> ah, i wondered what the actual initial plan for doublehanded weapons was
17:40:25 <MarvinPA> (or if there even was one)
17:40:42 <Eronarn> one thing that might be neat: if aux attacks went to nearby enemies rather than the main one
17:40:45 <MarvinPA> but that sounds cool
17:40:52 <Eronarn> so staves are better against groups of enemies
17:40:57 <Eronarn> (this is historically true, to boot)
17:41:42 <OG17> that's a suggestion for axes on the wiki for weapon moves
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17:42:21 <Eronarn> OG17: for axes the suggestion was that the main attack could carry through, whereas this would be that your auxes hit other things
17:42:26 <Eronarn> slightly different
17:42:27 <OG17> also two attacks are cool, some brands would be pretty strong but that's good since it'd give more of a reason to use the thing in the first place
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17:43:24 <Eronarn> some more kinds of aux attacks might also be nice, some of the weapon effects stuff could go there instead
17:43:30 <OG17> pretty similar in the end, save that it's silly for a melee weapon to rely on UC so much
17:43:38 <Eronarn> shield bashes, trips, pulls, etc.
17:43:42 <Eronarn> yes
17:45:00 <Eronarn> defensive ones might be neat also, like if you have high dodging you can get an aux that gives you +EV against that target
17:45:25 <Eronarn> or makes a miss against you turn into an attack on a nearby monster
17:46:05 <Eronarn> pretty much needs to be overhauled as a whole system though the current code is so ridiculously bad
17:46:12 <MarvinPA> oh my you actually coded breathe bees
17:46:39 <MarvinPA> this i must see
17:46:49 <kilobyte> don't you usually inhale them instead?
17:48:59 <Eronarn> MarvinPA: it's not too exciting yet, it just uses cloud style aiming and makes bees; check out the AI on them, though, i feel that it works well
17:49:33 <OG17> does it use cloud glyphs or bee glyphs?
17:49:50 <Eronarn> bees will "cling" to monsters near them, but might lose those monsters if they get more than 1 away, and they tend to swap targets a lot (they choose a random one every turn)
17:50:18 <Eronarn> OG17: cloud. right now: butterfly = ETC_RANDOM, bee = yellow, sparks = lightcyan, spiders = lightmagenta
17:51:17 <OG17> covered in tiny pink spiders
17:51:20 <Eronarn> the swarm code itself is pretty flexible, you can add a new one just by adding a monster entry + some enums
17:51:53 <Eronarn> hydra swarms~
17:52:10 <OG17> bee should maybe be brown since fire flashes yellow but whatever
17:52:17 <Eronarn> walls
17:52:31 <OG17> I thought clouds were getting a glyph
17:52:40 <OG17> or maybe that's forgotten
17:52:55 <Eronarn> both walls and clouds are # and i don't think any other ascii glyph would work well for either
17:53:24 <Eronarn> i mean maybe ? or % but already used so
17:53:27 <OG17> it was on the wiki months ago but I guess it's taking a break
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17:53:46 <due> & was recommended
17:53:48 <MarvinPA> + for clouds looks alright in the games i've watched
17:53:55 <MarvinPA> but that's in use too
17:53:58 <monqy> who uses + for clouds besides me and slyshy
17:53:59 <due> but we couldn't decide the last time we discussed it
17:54:03 <Eronarn> & is too cool to change
17:54:18 <Eronarn> + is interesting though... only used for doors right?
17:54:38 <MarvinPA> think so
17:54:47 <Eronarn> and open door = '?
17:54:57 <Eronarn> or is it `
17:55:05 <MarvinPA> '
17:55:09 <monqy> I should put my clouds on @ and move humans off. that or move closed doors somewhere else
17:55:11 <OG17> - or + is good I think, & doesn't flow very well
17:55:28 <Eronarn> hmm gates are one issue
17:55:33 <Eronarn> ++++ looks great for them
17:55:38 <OG17> what's happening with unicode now?
17:57:18 <Eronarn> maybe doors = ' and get a brand if they're closed
17:57:26 <Eronarn> since a closed door can never have a brand from something else afaik
17:58:00 <monqy> you don't even need a brand, do you? just make them different colours
17:58:12 <Eronarn> monqy: i think a brand would look nicer... + filled up more space than '
17:58:51 <Eronarn> # are quite space-filling so ##'## would look good with ' branded i think
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18:02:01 <kilobyte> OG17: I plan to make it default (not the current glyph set, though)
18:02:31 <due> I'd hate it if doors werne't on +.
18:02:53 <kilobyte> current CSET_UNICODE is just recoded CSET_IBM
18:02:58 <kilobyte> due: agree
18:03:41 <kilobyte> of course I'm partial to my personal config, but I currently use CSET_UNICODE but with mostly everything moved back to CSET_ASCII, with my own changes elsewhere
18:03:58 <kilobyte> including # for rock walls, . for floor
18:05:35 <kilobyte> the thing is, CSET_ currently means both encoding (something technical the player is not interested in) and glyphs
18:06:00 <monqy> would be nice to decouple them I guess
18:07:59 <kilobyte> ▒ looks damn ugly in most non-bitmap fonts
18:08:21 <OG17> if it's possible it'd be good to just have clouds be the solid ibm-style wall blocks and walls be #, and vice versa for those who like solid walls
18:08:22 <kilobyte> which means "anything made this millenium"
18:08:46 <OG17> unless that's what you just said maybe
18:09:23 <kilobyte> the fully solid block (█) is fine, though
18:09:34 <kilobyte> except for not fitting clouds, of course
18:09:37 <due> yes, it is ugly
18:09:51 <due> isn't there a cloud-like unicode glyph we can use?
18:10:02 <kilobyte> I like ະ a lot
18:10:42 <kilobyte> but since it's a Thai letter, not everyone will have it
18:11:19 <kilobyte> all operating systems do ship a font with that letter AFAIK, but it will fail for terminals without glyph substitution (PuTTY, ...)
18:13:29 <due> actually, that is pretty cool
18:13:33 <due> what about Χ?
18:13:49 <monqy> X as in large abomination, orb guardian, tentacled monstrosity?
18:13:58 <due> er
18:13:59 <due> no
18:14:00 <due> Ξ
18:14:02 <monqy> oh
18:14:04 <due> sorry, wrong glyph
18:14:14 <CIA-26> 03kilobyte * rca86249eed67 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/variable/altar.des: Add some missing no_rtele_into to spots in a number of altar vaults.
18:14:15 <due> forgot that X=khi, no xi
18:14:17 <Mu_> i can't see half the characters you're talkin about amusingly
18:14:19 <due> for some reason xi is j on this
18:14:26 <Mu_> they just show up as a string of garbage for me
18:14:44 <due> \u039e
18:14:54 <due> that would be a cool door symbol
18:14:54 <MarvinPA> Eronarn: transmutation/summoning/poison is too long :(
18:15:11 <MarvinPA> bee breathing seems pretty sweet though
18:15:49 <kilobyte> Δ?  It's already "detected item".
18:15:53 <Eronarn> MarvinPA: yeah, so i saw... i'm actually iffy on it being tri-school. i'd rather have it be tmut/summ, but since they're bees it kind of has to be poison
18:16:26 <kilobyte> of course, it can be moved aside, but not sure if a triangle fits doors that well
18:16:26 <monqy> you could flavour it up to be either tmut/pois or summ/pois
18:16:40 <MarvinPA> tmut/pois could work
18:16:56 <due> kilobyte: no, that's delta
18:16:58 <kilobyte> on the other hand, Δ is on the least-common-denominator WGL4 list, so you can use it in defaults safely
18:16:59 <MarvinPA> also i love the idea of having this and maybe a level 1 transmutation of some sort to replace fulsome/evap in the transmuter book
18:17:04 <due> kilobyte: capital XI
18:17:17 <due> kilobyte: All of the greek letters should be on the least-common-denominator list, no?
18:17:23 <due> \u0394 is capital delta
18:17:41 <Eronarn> MarvinPA: sharkpunch
18:17:55 <kilobyte> ah, Ξ, mistyped.
18:18:30 <kilobyte> it's just three horizontal bars of equal lengths in the font I'm using, though.  Seems wrong as the middle bar should be shorter...
18:18:38 <due> huh
18:18:42 <MarvinPA> sharkpunch can only be a good thing
18:18:44 <due> yeah, XI's middle bar is shorter
18:18:45 <MarvinPA> with a name like that
18:19:03 <due> It should be similar in appearance to the Japanese numeral san
18:19:18 <Eronarn> also monqy the way the current flavor works: you take in a deep breath, transmute your lungs, summon a bunch of bees inside them, and then exhale
18:19:38 <kilobyte> uhm... "san"?  Could you just paste it?
18:19:50 <MarvinPA> tmut/pois you transmute a lungful of air into bees, i guess?
18:20:00 <MarvinPA> transmuting air is iffy flavour but whatever
18:20:12 <Eronarn> MarvinPA: or possibly, require quaffing a potion of poison to cast it
18:20:13 <due> kilobyte: give me a second
18:20:26 <due> kilobyte: I don't have japanese interface enabled, will have to look it up
18:20:30 <MarvinPA> hm that would be cool but means you'd have to keep fulsome for transmuter :(
18:20:37 <Eronarn> but both ammo and breath might be excessive and i think in the long run it shouldn't be in the same book as fulsome/evap
18:20:57 <due> 三
18:20:59 <monqy> quaff any potion, flavour bees based on potion, call it evaporate
18:21:07 <kilobyte> due: too bad, it needs to be a "half-width" (normal width for us) character.
18:21:09 <Eronarn> maybe it could transmute your spit instead, and change it to Spit Bees
18:21:11 <due> \u4e09
18:21:16 <due> oh, right
18:21:17 <monqy> (evaporate with disadvantages)
18:21:19 <kilobyte> there are such variants for many of them, lemme check
18:21:31 <Eronarn> monqy: disadvantage: they are angry bees and attack you
18:21:37 <monqy> ooh
18:21:43 <due> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Ξ
18:21:48 <monqy> poisonous clouds are pretty angry too but that sounds much better
18:21:57 <Eronarn> yeah swarms move around, and they attack even their summoner
18:21:59 <due> also
18:22:14 <monqy> do swarms have variable density and spread out?
18:22:15 <due> ≡
18:22:18 <Eronarn> which means you can't readily cast the cloud under the monster and stand there behind a rat or whatever
18:22:19 <monqy> or swarm together
18:22:24 <due> is that what xi shows up for you? that's \u2261
18:22:47 <Eronarn> monqy: right now they're individual clouds that decay like clouds but also move; later they will have splitting/merging
18:23:14 <Eronarn> and by individual i mean that they each move independently
18:23:20 <Eronarn> in practice the effect works pretty well as-is, give it a shot
18:24:47 <due> <3 <3 <3 denzi's tiles
18:24:53 <due> lichform kitty!
18:25:00 <Eronarn> also: i want to do a monster spell that makes gloom clouds that hunt after you
18:25:24 <Eronarn> at just the edge of LOS, each tile gets gloomed
18:25:35 <Eronarn> and then they zoom towards you in a contracting ring
18:25:45 <Eronarn> and if you're standing in gloom, the darkness itself attacks you :D
18:26:07 <Eronarn> could give it to eresh or something
18:26:51 <kilobyte> due: both Ξ and ≡ show up as three equal bars in Consolas.  I'm using that font since it's one of the few things Microsoft ever made well (bought actually, of course).  However, in this case it is wrong.
18:27:24 <due> hm
18:27:56 <due> I use Deja Vu myself -- it's not complete, but it has most of the characters that I've run into.
18:28:58 <kilobyte> the only halfwidth form of 三 is ﾐ which is a "derived" letter
18:29:27 <due> ah
18:29:32 <kilobyte> Deja Vu has a good deal better coverage than Consolas, but that doesn't matter much on terminals with glyph substitution
18:29:33 <due> Oh well
18:30:24 <due> Deja Vu Sans Mono is my standard console font; Deja Vu Sans my standard font. Though I did need to install one of the other, more complete (Though not as pretty) fonts to be able to read an amusing diatribe on HTML parsing with regexp.
18:30:35 <kilobyte> sadly, in defaults, we shouldn't use anything outside http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WGL4
18:31:03 <kilobyte> having other _optional_ presets would be cool, though
18:31:32 <kilobyte> like, runic letters
18:32:32 <kilobyte> these are rare: on Debian, ttf-junicode has nice versions, ttf-unifont fugly pixellated ones, not sure what other fonts support them
18:33:00 <kilobyte> I use ᛥ for stone walls, ᛞ for metal -- it is really helpful to be able to tell them apart
18:33:05 <due> actually
18:33:14 <due> the idea of adding greek letters to the monster set appeals to me so much
18:33:52 <due> Α, Β, Ε, Ζ, Η, Ι, Κ, Μ, Ν, Ο, Π, Τ, Υ,  are obviously useless.
18:34:01 <kilobyte> (and we probably never should recolour stone or metal, or recolour rock gray or cyan, as long as the defaults use the same glyph)
18:34:03 <ais523> runic letters for runes?
18:34:21 <kilobyte> Π -- why?
18:34:26 <due> But gama, delta, zeta, eta, theta, lambda, mu, nu, xi, pi, sigma, tau, upsilon, phi, chi and psi would be cool.
18:34:30 <kilobyte> it doesn't clash with any Latin letter
18:34:53 <due> Oops, didn't mean to hit pi.
18:35:02 <Eronarn> due: i use theta for eyes
18:35:05 <Eronarn> it's awesome
18:35:16 <kilobyte> you mean, greek Α is bad because it clashes with cyrillic А, right? :p
18:35:42 <due> :))
18:36:07 <due> "of course"
18:36:27 <Eronarn> i have angels on a hebrew glyph... still want that combining char as a portal glyph though :(
18:37:08 <due> which combinaing char?
18:37:25 <Eronarn> cyrillic combining millions
18:38:31 <kilobyte> old cyrillic, all languages using cyrillic switched to regular digits ages ago
18:38:44 <Eronarn> very cool looking, though
18:38:51 <Eronarn> would be good as either portals or halos
18:39:13 <kilobyte> (not "arabic" since that's totally wrong...  there's little resemblance between regular digits and arabic ones, even if they descended from them)
18:39:44 <kilobyte> ٠.١.٢.٣.٤.٥.٦.٧.٨.٩
18:43:17 <due> mmm old numerals
18:50:16 <CIA-26> 03kilobyte * r119779728630 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/variable/altar.des: Don't let early angels teleport out.
18:56:58 <kilobyte> due: shedu are winged bulls with human heads, yet somehow have claw attacks
18:57:10 <due> kilobyte: Yes, I think this is an oversight on my part.
18:57:41 <Eronarn> trample :D
18:58:21 <kilobyte> a falling attack!
18:58:28 <kilobyte> 500kg hamburger from above!
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19:01:21 <Eronarn> ooh... if i replace swarm decay with swarm HP, leech swarms could stick around longer by attacking you :D
19:01:56 <monqy> mosquito swarms
19:02:22 <Eronarn> monqy: both!
19:02:29 <Eronarn> with that 'summon swamp' spell that was proposed
19:03:25 <monqy> redo summon swarm
19:03:29 <Eronarn> a stat drain swarm might also be neat, since swarms are a lot harder to get rid of
19:04:05 <monqy> how do you get rid of swarms? wait them out? block them off with other clouds?
19:04:35 <Eronarn> right now: that, blink/teleport, move more than one square in a turn
19:05:08 <Eronarn> later i'd like them to actually have speeds based on their monster stats, so you could have ones that you can't out run and ones that you can
19:05:52 <Eronarn> also later i'd like to add code that lets you hit them with AOE spells (like fireball, maybe bolts)
19:07:10 <Eronarn> they're actual monsters, so it's not as hard as it sounds... mostly the problem is that you need a way to find them, and no code looks at them right now and it can't be changed in just one place
19:07:17 <Eronarn> it'd probably have to be done one spell at a time
19:08:04 <Eronarn> oh, also i need to make cloud spells wipe out swarms, forgot that
19:08:31 <Eronarn> even if they're not vulnerable the idea is that the cloud disperses/scatters them
19:08:36 <Eronarn> just because they're so tiny
19:08:54 <monqy> should demonic plants have demonic holiness? right now it looks like they're just plants
19:09:20 <Eronarn> @??demonic plant
19:09:20 <Gretell> demonic plant (04P) | Speed: 0 | HD: 10 | Health: 38-72 | AC/EV: 10/0 | Flags: 03plant, 07vault | Res: 13magic(immune), 03poison, 12drown, 13neg+++ | XP: 0.
19:09:52 <Eronarn> maybe make them evil, not sure they need to be demons though
19:09:56 <TGWi> evil plants
19:10:00 <TGWi> think about what you're saying
19:10:12 <Eronarn> TGWi: what do you have against evil plants
19:10:14 <ais523> they wouldn't be too out of place in a fantasy setting
19:10:27 <ais523> although evil+mindless is a bit of a weird combination
19:10:31 <ais523> does Crawl track mindlessness?
19:10:46 <Eronarn> int_plant = mindless, more or less
19:10:46 <TGWi> evil + IT IS A PLANT is a weird combination :P
19:10:47 <ais523> also, plants /can/ drown in real life
19:11:06 <Eronarn> it goes plant, insect, animal, normal, high iirc
19:11:16 <Eronarn> zombies are int_plant
19:11:18 <ais523> air-breathing plants need to get their carbon dioxide from somewhere, and I doubt they're too good at doing it from underwater
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19:11:25 <ais523> are zombies evil?
19:11:35 <Eronarn> what do you think
19:11:46 <ais523> my guess is no, the reanimation isn't their fault
19:12:07 <ais523> and they have no evil will, they're completely mindless
19:12:10 <Eronarn> congrats, you made the same mistake 3.0 D&D did
19:12:22 <Eronarn> it is fantasy game, evil doesn't require agency
19:12:33 <Eronarn> swords and spells and rocks and stuff can all be evil
19:12:40 <kilobyte> in Crawl, "evil" is defined as "what the good gods hate"
19:12:51 <ais523> well, zombies don't use necromancy, do they?
19:12:59 <Eronarn> zombies are necromancy
19:13:09 <ais523> I don't see why that necessarily makes them evil
19:13:17 <Eronarn> because what kilo just said
19:13:23 <ais523> as in, say Cerebov casts fire storm, does that make his fire vortices evil?
19:13:25 <Eronarn> again, evil in fantasy games does not require agency
19:13:32 <Ashenzari> Assertion failure (you.turn_is_over) (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3472) by Vinterriket
19:14:04 <Eronarn> someone using something doesn't make that thing evil, but in a fantasy game, things can be evil
19:14:08 <Eronarn> regardless of who is using them
19:14:10 <Napkin> damn.. my last paladin ever just died :(
19:14:10 <ais523> I know that early D&D needed a disclaimer saying that poison wasn't inherently evil, thus you couldn't use detect evil to determine if somethin wasn't poisonous
19:14:12 <Eronarn> (and using them is itself evil)
19:14:20 <ais523> Napkin: you can always play older versions
19:14:28 <ais523> including getting them from trunk, if needed
19:14:31 <TGWi> zombies kill things mercilessly
19:14:32 <TGWi> they're evil
19:14:41 <TGWi> plants are perfectly immobile and can't think
19:14:41 <ais523> so do players
19:14:43 <TGWi> they're not evil
19:14:43 <ais523> are they evil too?
19:14:44 <Napkin> nah, there is no turning back on you went trunk
19:14:50 <Eronarn> ais523: yes
19:15:03 <ais523> Napkin: just download a local copy, revert it to an old revision, compile
19:15:04 <TGWi> (no)
19:15:15 <Eronarn> TGWi: go try out breathe bees
19:15:23 <TGWi> is it on cdo
19:15:29 <Eronarn> yes
19:15:30 <Eronarn> (no)
19:16:12 <kilobyte> ais523: you mean, like 0.7.2-1-gedacb19?
19:16:27 <ais523> just the bit at the end, it identifies the revision
19:16:43 <ais523> and you can ask git to reset to it
19:16:59 <Napkin> nah, i'm going with the design decisions here
19:17:06 <kilobyte> you can use the output of "git describe" to refer to commits, no need to use just the hash
19:17:54 <kilobyte> @whereis
19:17:54 <Gretell> KiloByte the Ripper (L23 FePa), a worshipper of Nemelex Xobeh, saved on Elf:5 on 2011-02-19 after 102029 turns.
19:18:03 <kilobyte> need to win (ok, ok, splat...) it too
19:18:10 <Eronarn> @whereis
19:18:10 <Gretell> Eronarn the Cleaver (L12 DDEE), a worshipper of Zin, saved on D:13 on 2011-02-17 after 17932 turns.
19:18:15 <Eronarn> ^^ never going to win this character ^^
19:18:19 <Eronarn> down to 5 MP because recharging
19:18:55 <elliptic> quick, convert to trog
19:19:08 <Eronarn> no
19:19:11 <elliptic> or makhleb probably better
19:19:19 <kilobyte> yeah, an EE with no mana is not good for casting
19:19:33 <Eronarn> having to play a healing god or a necro to be a DD is lame
19:19:46 <Eronarn> i am just going to keep playing until i die horribly
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19:30:15 <CIA-26> 03kilobyte * r645b3405cdd8 10/crawl-ref/source/ (3 files in 3 dirs): Add Denzi's air elemental tile.
19:30:25 <CIA-26> 03kilobyte * r9b4f1b7bc3fd 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/portals/ziggurat.des: Don't let the angels out of early Zig portals, too.
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19:43:58 <calavera> hi
19:45:04 <due> hi
19:52:25 <calavera> due, do you know if util/release_ver is created manually, or is there some script or tool that can be run to generate it?
19:52:45 <due> It's generated
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19:53:54 <calavera> what generates it?  if i run a build from master without access to git, gen_ver.pl fails
19:54:06 <due> $(shell git describe --tags $(MERGE_BASE) 2>/dev/null || cat util/release_ver)
19:54:09 <due> :)
19:54:12 <calavera> right :)
19:54:33 <calavera> i'm kind of stuck in a catch 22 :)
19:54:50 <due> yes, I can imagnie
19:54:55 <calavera> i'm trying to create a --HEAD build for homebrew
19:54:57 <due> hangon
19:55:06 <due> what's wrong with building it via git/
19:55:09 <calavera> and homebrew stages the source
19:55:28 <calavera> well it gets it from git, but then stages it without access to git
19:56:00 <due> hm
19:56:03 <calavera> it basically just copies it to a temp dir without the git data
19:56:06 <due> why? :)
19:56:13 <due> I mean, is there a particular need to not have the git data?
19:56:13 <calavera> so git thinks its not a repo
19:56:26 <calavera> you got me... :)
19:56:37 <calavera> it might be something homebrew should fix
19:56:39 <due> oh
19:56:42 <due> wait, homebrew is a thing?
19:56:46 <calavera> aye
19:56:55 <calavera> homebrew is a package manager for macs
19:56:58 <due> ahhhh
19:57:01 <due> I have not heard of this
19:57:05 <calavera> https://github.com/mxcl/homebrew
19:57:33 <calavera> it's actually the only mac packager manager that currently has dcss available
19:57:49 <due> I didn't realise macs had package managers :)
19:58:00 <due> hang on
19:58:09 <calavera> so i've been trying to enhance the options a bit :)
19:58:15 <due> okay, what you need to do is just execute...
19:58:23 <due> "git describe --tags HEAD > util/release_ver"
19:58:25 <due> or into smoe file
19:58:30 <due> and then copy that into util/release_ver
19:59:09 <calavera> that was going to be my next try... i think i can override homebrew's fetch and add on a line like that
19:59:30 <calavera> so just do that after it clones but before it stages
19:59:31 <due> unfortunately it's not really the sort of file we can include in the repository
19:59:34 <due> however
19:59:37 <due> it shouldn't break without it
19:59:51 <calavera> is there a way to do a post commit hook?
20:00:06 <due> because building from tarball shouldn't need release_ver.
20:00:07 <calavera> that would maybe get the latest version/commit
20:00:50 <calavera> not sure if your host supports a hook like that but it might be feasible
20:01:16 <due> we could do it via CDO
20:01:31 <due> but I do not see th e point of generating one superflous commit for every other commit mad3
20:01:37 <due> the CIA/c-r-c spam alone  would be annoying
20:01:54 <calavera> true
20:02:11 <calavera> well i'm sure i can make it work the way we were just talking about anyway
20:02:11 <due> the best option is to juts make homebrew not nuke .git
20:02:35 <calavera> i might create an issue @homebrew that asks why they do that in the first place
20:02:46 <due> they might not do it deliberately
20:02:55 <calavera> and btw, there's 3 total package managers for mac :)
20:03:13 <due> you learn something new every day :D
20:03:20 <calavera> i might try putting dcss in macports next
20:03:26 <calavera> i think that's the most popular
20:03:48 <due> you might want to talk to kilobyte, he's responsible for our debian package
20:03:59 <due> is homebrew a package manager, or does it build packages?
20:04:17 <due> ie, is there a way we can include code in our repository to make it easier to build the package and thus provide this package for people using homebrew?
20:04:19 <calavera> both... i think...
20:04:23 <due> or is it more like... pip or something?
20:04:30 <due> or rather, checkinstall versus apt-get
20:04:46 <calavera> it does uninstalls and dependencies and such
20:05:00 <calavera> so more advanced than pip but probably far less than apt-get
20:05:06 <due> ahh
20:05:20 <due> https://github.com/mxcl/homebrew/blob/master/Library/Formula/stone-soup.rb
20:05:24 <calavera> it is pretty basic i think by design
20:05:25 <due> so you are attempting to improve this for us? :)
20:05:28 <calavera> yup
20:05:31 <calavera> thats the one :)
20:05:36 <due> ahhh! excellent! than kyou :)
20:05:46 <calavera> np
20:05:56 <calavera> i was playing and one of the slaves started following me around
20:06:04 <due> :D
20:06:04 <calavera> but wouldn't folowo me down stairs
20:06:12 <due> yes, they would've been neutral
20:06:23 <calavera> so i wanted to update to head but it looked like that was only in head
20:06:48 <calavera> so i decided to enhance the homebrew build :P
20:07:29 <due> huh
20:07:38 <due> it doesn't appear to delete the .git
20:07:54 <due> I do not speak ruby so well, though
20:08:16 <calavera> i haven't found where it deletes or excludes it
20:08:24 <due> are you sure it does?
20:08:26 <calavera> but i can run debug builds and .git is never there
20:08:29 <due> hm
20:08:38 <due> does it actually fetch it from gitoriou then?
20:08:54 <due> because it would seem to have code in place to allow for updating from your git repository, etc
20:08:54 <calavera> oh i know
20:08:58 <calavera> i do know why
20:09:01 <due> oh!
20:09:12 <calavera> it does a git checkout from the cloned local repo
20:09:18 <due> ...
20:09:26 <calavera> which is like svn export
20:09:29 <due> that does not make any sense
20:09:34 <calavera> so it clones
20:09:42 <calavera> then checks out to a temp dir
20:09:44 <calavera> then builds
20:09:46 <due> that shoulld still create a .git file in the temp dir
20:09:59 <calavera> see download_strategy.rb like 295
20:10:19 <due> ...
20:10:20 <calavera> it leaves the .gitignore but no .git
20:10:46 <due> that doesn't make sense
20:11:00 <calavera> they appear to be doing it on purpose if you look at line 294
20:11:08 <calavera> they're trying to replicate svn export
20:11:14 <calavera> which is a non-versioned co
20:11:18 <due> yeah
20:11:41 <due> well, I imagine they're not wanting to install the .git directory to wherever it installs the packages
20:12:33 <due> what it sounds like it needs is some sort of "pre-clone" hook that allows you to insert the generate util/release_ver in the main repository and copy it into the temp directory -- before it executes the install script
20:12:54 <calavera> i think what i'm going to do is override the download strategy and do exactly that
20:13:03 <calavera> you can specify your own downloadStrategy class
20:13:11 <calavera> in the formula
20:14:02 <calavera> ii'll just inherit from gitDownloadStrategy, run super.stage, and then run the git describe line into a temp file
20:14:21 <calavera> then copy it into the staging dir in the install method
20:14:44 <due> :)
20:14:56 <due> sounds like what I'd do if I knew ruby :)
20:14:58 <calavera> should work just fine, i just wanted to check with you guys first to make sure i wasn't missing something
20:15:07 <calavera> i don't know ruby at all :)
20:15:10 <calavera> i know python though
20:15:15 <due> me neither, and I write plugins for redmine :)
20:15:44 <calavera> :P
20:16:16 <calavera> i'm actually more of a c++ guy but python and ruby are like pseudocode :O
20:16:28 <due> python is my native language
20:16:48 <TGWi> i am a python
20:16:51 <calavera> then the ruby should make sense :P
20:17:31 <Adeon> i am a cobra
20:17:43 <due> nah, ruby is like someone fed python through a blender
20:18:10 <calavera> with perl thrown in?
20:19:27 <calavera> thanks for the help due, hopefully this should be up and running soon
20:19:34 <due> hooray!
20:19:42 <due> can you drop me an email when it's done? I'll post about it on the CDO blog.
20:20:12 <calavera> sure, is it on the website?
20:20:30 <due> bookofjude@gmail.com :)
20:20:39 <calavera> cool, will do
20:22:31 <due> danke!
20:23:24 <calavera> bitte!
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20:34:57 <kilobyte> due, calavera: "make source"
20:35:36 <kilobyte> this creates stuff needed for a git-less package, including util/release_ver
20:35:43 <calavera> sweet!
20:35:53 <due> kilobyte: ah, excellent, thanks
20:41:34 <calavera> kilobyte: unfortunately you need git to create the git-less package :P
20:42:02 <kilobyte> only once
20:42:20 <kilobyte> and how else are you going to obtain the source to do so?
20:42:34 <kilobyte> all official downloads are produced this exact way
20:42:38 <Eronarn> FR: abyssal knight => chaos knight; ck[xom] => Lunatic
20:43:05 <Eronarn> abyssal knight sounds terrible
20:43:09 <Eronarn> and xom isn't knight-y anyways
20:44:09 <st_> Fool or Plaything are better suggestions
20:44:09 <TGWi> lunatic is silly
20:44:35 <calavera> no i understand, it's just that it doesn't make it any easier to fit into their package installation process
20:44:37 <Eronarn> i don't like fool but plaything would be fine by me the main point is that AK is terrible and CK isn't xom-y
20:45:10 <calavera> just running git describe into a temp file would be less complex for me to code into the install formula file
20:45:26 <kilobyte> well, it produces the old-style tarball that all traditional distributions expect
20:45:49 <calavera> right, but they have two different processes for getting source
20:45:54 <calavera> one for head and one for tarballs
20:46:04 <due> it's an oversight on their part
20:46:09 <due> it always is ;)
20:46:09 <calavera> pretty much
20:46:12 <calavera> :P
20:47:08 <calavera> by trying to be simple they have kind of limited your options
20:48:11 <calavera> you either specify a pre-packaged tarball or a repository url, but getting a repository and then packaging it is not an option that is builtin as far as i can tell
21:14:08 <Ashenzari> Corruption placed a wall on top of a jelly (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3474) by elliptic
21:21:22 <due> yay jellywall
21:22:12 <due> I'm going to go to bed
21:22:14 <due> ciao
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21:40:20 <CIA-26> 03MarvinPA * r13d79a5e244d 10/crawl-ref/source/ng-restr.cc: Add weapon recommendations for Unarmed and Staves
21:40:30 <CIA-26> 03MarvinPA * r67c0865f632b 10/crawl-ref/source/ng-restr.cc: Don't let OgMo pick an ankus
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22:17:52 <Eronarn> random thought: we should remove animate dead from orc high priests
22:18:01 <Eronarn> they're high priests of beogh and mostly show up in orc
22:18:11 <Eronarn> beogh doesn't like desecrating orcish remains
22:40:19 <OG17> beogh doesn't care, you can do it yourself
22:40:31 <OG17> I brought this up as questionable and everyone laughed at me
22:42:53 <ais523> you can animate them, but not chop them?
22:43:26 <OG17> you can butcher them by animating their skeletons too, which is cool
22:43:40 <Eronarn> what, that's dumb
22:43:54 <Eronarn> it's not even questionable it's downright unflavorful
22:43:56 <OG17> feel free to dig it up on mantis
22:45:49 <elliptic> maybe beogh likes orc zombies
22:48:32 <ais523> I can understand an orcish god wanting his followers to fight to the death, and beyond the death too
22:48:45 <ais523> but in that case should give at least an "I see what you did there" like Desktop Dungeons does, even if it doesn't change piety
22:49:26 <ais523> (Desktop Dungeons has a god that likes plants and petrification, and has a special message when you petrify plants, which I think is even worth a small piety bonus)
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22:52:00 <TGWi> in general I think the generic priests should be given actual abilities of actual gods
22:52:18 <TGWi> but a lot of it doesn't really translate to monsters
22:52:43 <monqy> even if it's not actual abilities of gods they could at least use some variance
22:52:53 <monqy> demons and smiting for everyone is rather boring
22:53:10 <TGWi> FR: demons and smiting for everyone god
22:53:15 <TGWi> makleogh
22:55:04 <monqy> torment fits the mummies well, at least
22:57:16 <Eronarn> beogh priests having spells is fine
22:57:21 <Eronarn> but they should be more flavorful spells
22:57:35 <Eronarn> @??orc priest
22:57:35 <Gretell> orc priest (03o) | Speed: 10 | HD: 3 | Health: 9-21 | AC/EV: 1/10 | Damage: 6 | Flags: evil | Res: 06magic(16) | Vul: 08holy | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 41 | Sp: pain (d8), cantrip, smiting (7-17), minor healing.
22:57:38 <Eronarn> @?orc high priest
22:57:38 <Gretell> orc high priest (09o) | Speed: 10 | HD: 11 | Health: 40-70 | AC/EV: 1/12 | Damage: 7 | Flags: evil, see invisible | Res: 06magic(58), 05hellfire | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 1001 | Sp: pain (d13), demon, smiting (7-17), animate dead, minor healing.
22:57:58 <Eronarn> like drop minor healing from orc priests and give them vamp draining instead
22:58:09 <monqy> demons are redundant with sorcs too
22:58:15 <monqy> and make no sense
22:58:22 <OG17> how is that redundant
22:58:31 <OG17> how is vamp draining more priesty than healing
22:58:32 <monqy> orc sorcerers have demons too?
22:58:39 <monqy> @?orc sorcerer
22:58:39 <Gretell> orc sorcerer (13o) | Speed: 10 | HD: 9 | Health: 22-41 | AC/EV: 5/12 | Damage: 7 | Flags: evil, spellcaster, see invisible | Res: 06magic(36), 05fire | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 627 | Sp: b.fire (3d17), b.draining (3d14), demon, paralyse, animate dead, teleport self.
22:58:46 <Eronarn> OG17: healing is not priesty at all for a priest of beogh
22:59:02 <ais523> smiting, walk on water, support orcish gear might make sense
22:59:04 <OG17> but vampiric draining is
22:59:11 <OG17> maybe they're monsters
22:59:17 <Eronarn> OG17: it's fine if they also learn magic
22:59:34 <Eronarn> and also a healing effect on them is good for gameplay
22:59:40 <TGWi> how about monster beogh blessings
22:59:42 <Eronarn> but them casting healing: boring and unflavorful
23:00:03 <Eronarn> TGWi: that would be a possibility too though i think that'd be better if it happened only for orcs with a leader (i.e., ones in a band)
23:00:08 <OG17> okay?  It lets them heal outside of melee
23:00:13 <OG17> and draining isn't any better
23:00:16 <TGWi> Eronarn: ...yes, priests
23:00:18 <TGWi> that's my point
23:00:35 <Eronarn> TGWi: oh, you mean have the priests give their followers blessings? yes that's fine
23:00:44 <Eronarn> i thought you meant having them bless themselves
23:01:02 <TGWi> and if beogh giving resists to orcs is implemented then that should go to monsters too
23:01:09 <Eronarn> beogh resists is dumb
23:01:19 <Eronarn> it's chei resists all over again
23:01:22 <TGWi> what?
23:01:30 <OG17> maybe orcs are fodder monsters and don't need all this complexity
23:01:46 <TGWi> you can't clothe an army in rF
23:01:57 <TGWi> it's not really possible
23:02:57 <Eronarn> it's too bad nergalle has spectral orcs already, it'd be neat on a high priest
23:03:27 <Eronarn> calling ancestor spirits is a somewhat different, more acceptable flavor than 'bind unwilling souls to service'
23:03:28 <TGWi> under what circumstances would a beoghite have spectral orcs
23:03:41 <monqy> TGWi: being a monster
23:03:49 <OG17> are we using warcraft orcs now
23:04:04 <Eronarn> ancestor spirits: invented by warcraft
23:04:15 <OG17> not ancestor spirits: unacceptable
23:04:15 <monqy> TGWi: under what circumstances would a beoghite have demon-summoning and animate dead and healing and pain and whatever other nonsense monster orc priests currently have
23:04:27 <TGWi> Eronarn: replacing random unjustified mechanics with other random unjustified mechanics isn't helping
23:05:10 <monqy> spectral orcs is far more flavourful than demons at least, and breaks away from the priestly demons&smiting monotony
23:05:18 <OG17> maybe orcs start with special books that aren't available to the player
23:05:20 <OG17> can this stop now
23:05:50 <Eronarn> this conversation is dumb, i blame OG17
23:05:51 <TGWi> no never
23:06:43 <OG17> also how are priests tiresomely connected to demons, you see an orc high priest once in three games
23:06:54 <OG17> and elf high priests aren't all that typical either
23:07:10 <monqy> mummy priests have them too
23:07:32 <OG17> are mummy priests part of this now?
23:07:41 <monqy> were they not before?
23:08:00 <OG17> I thought not, they're sort of not that related
23:08:08 <monqy> oh
23:08:36 <OG17> as far as "monsters need to act exactly like players" goes
23:08:38 <monqy> on orcs alone, and regardless of flavour, I think it would be nice if sorcerers and high priests didn't both have summon demon
23:09:05 <Eronarn> yes, i don't see how this is really even something to disagree about
23:09:06 <monqy> (I'm not even arguing for monsters acting like players)
23:09:19 <Eronarn> they both have animate dead and summon demon, and summon demon also summons stuff that animates dead
23:09:25 <Eronarn> changing this is a no-brainer as far as i am concerned
23:09:36 <OG17> has anyone ever seen a high priest and sorcerer on the same screen
23:09:39 <monqy> yes
23:09:40 <Eronarn> yes
23:09:44 <OG17> without beogh
23:09:46 <monqy> yes
23:09:46 <Eronarn> yes
23:09:53 <TGWi> yes
23:10:00 <OG17> now I know you're lying
23:10:07 <Eronarn> !gamesby OG17
23:10:08 <Sequell> OG17 has played 181 games, between 20100105 and 20100620, won 4 (2.2%), high score 1721556, total score 8428636, total turns 2916541, total time 261:19:48.
23:10:11 <Eronarn> !gamesby Eronarn
23:10:12 <Sequell> Eronarn has played 6030 games, between 20070831 and 20110215, won 8 (0.1%), high score 8738694, total score 45848076, total turns 11318680, total time 1645:48:10.
23:11:58 <Eronarn> @??orc sorceror
23:11:58 <Gretell> unknown monster: "orc sorceror"
23:12:03 <Eronarn> @??orc sorcerer
23:12:03 <Gretell> orc sorcerer (13o) | Speed: 10 | HD: 9 | Health: 22-41 | AC/EV: 5/12 | Damage: 7 | Flags: evil, spellcaster, see invisible | Res: 06magic(36), 05fire | Vul: 08holy | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 627 | Sp: b.fire (3d17), b.draining (3d14), demon, paralyse, animate dead, teleport self.
23:12:04 <OG17> anecdotes aside, demon is varied in itself
23:12:06 <Eronarn> @??orc wizard
23:12:06 <Gretell> orc wizard (06o) | Speed: 10 | HD: 3 | Health: 9-21 | AC/EV: 1/12 | Damage: 5 | Flags: spellcaster | Res: 06magic(20) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 35 | Sp: magic dart (3d4), slow, haste, blink / throw flame (3d5), confuse, invisibility, magic dart (3d4) / throw frost (3d5), cantrip, haste, throw flame (3d5), magic dart (3d4), invisibility.
23:12:12 <OG17> as there's like a dozen monsters it pulls from
23:12:20 <Eronarn> ugh monster lists
23:12:38 <OG17> so even if you have two things summoning them, it's not just the same thing
23:13:12 <monqy> on the note of monsters being the same, is crocs and gila monsters being the same sacred or has nobody simply had any good ideas on changing it (nore: removal of one of them is a good idea; crawl has too many boring pure melee threats)
23:13:43 <OG17> no one likes that but no one's changed it
23:13:59 <OG17> (chameleons)
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23:14:35 <monqy> I'd go on principle that it's best to remove and add chameleons when they're done
23:14:41 <Eronarn> monqy: agreed
23:14:58 <Eronarn> gila monsters dropping pois corpses is just not interesting enough to justify them existing
23:15:16 <OG17> they're not actively bad
23:15:52 <OG17> I don't see the hurry
23:15:56 <monqy> hurry?
23:16:03 <OG17> to drop them
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23:16:14 <OG17> unless I'm misreading
23:16:18 <Eronarn> i don't think it's a hurry crocodiles were done like a year ago
23:16:24 <Eronarn> and it was brought up then
23:16:29 <Eronarn> and nobody has done anything since
23:16:42 <OG17> I mean that you take them out now and put in chameleons god knows when
23:16:57 <OG17> might as well wait until it's ready
23:17:08 <OG17> it's not a big thing either way, I'm just saying
23:17:27 <Eronarn> if we wait until stuff is ready to add stuff we will be stuck with a lot of boring crap never getting fixed
23:17:36 <Eronarn> cutting stuff is fine if it's pointless
23:18:37 <OG17> it's not like removing a redundant name is going to make a big difference in itself
23:18:51 <Eronarn> frees up a color!!
23:20:08 <OG17> If you can butcher with something, it's a slashing weapon - this includes claws.  Exceptions are knives, daggers, quick blades, and ice form, none of which remove heads.
23:20:14 <OG17> am I overlooking anything there?
23:20:25 <TGWi> chameleons aren't going in because bikeshed about exactly how they should be invisible
23:20:38 <OG17> bikeshed is the worst catchphrase
23:20:42 <Eronarn> (they should be invisible in the way i described)
23:21:19 <Eronarn> or heck, add two invisible monsters, chameleons (invis + reach) and assassin bugs (invis + stalk you)
23:21:47 <TGWi> sure
23:21:48 <OG17> that was going to be spriggans
23:22:01 <Eronarn> OG17: it can be spriggans too, they're going to show up in a very limited number of places
23:22:03 <OG17> not that it needs to be exclusive
23:22:05 <OG17> yeah
23:22:29 <Eronarn> if we fill spider's nest up with gimmick fuck you monsters it might actually become interesting or challenging
23:22:33 <Eronarn> maybe
23:22:36 <Eronarn> (probably not)
23:23:04 <Eronarn> ((we should add a 'praying mantis' that is an intelligent priest of the insect god))
23:23:31 <monqy> spells:summon swarm, smiting, summon demon
23:24:38 <Eronarn> monqy: i'm not sure we should bring back summon swarm using swarms actually
23:25:20 <Eronarn> maybe it'd work better if it summoned a swarm and several matching normal-scale monsters
23:25:31 <Eronarn> so spiders + spider swarms, wasps + wasp swarms
23:25:51 <Eronarn> the swarms can be made to ignore creatures of the same genus, since they're actual monsters
23:26:44 <Eronarn> i guess that might be interesting; random amount of summons with potentially very different combat abilities
23:27:04 <OG17> is there an explanation for why a bee monster is the size of a dog but a swarm bee is the size of a bee
23:27:13 <OG17> the overlap is weird
23:27:25 <Eronarn> OG17: killer bees aren't irl killer bees, they're dungeon bees
23:27:39 <Eronarn> swarm bees are actual irl totally normal bees
23:27:54 <OG17> that's silly, call them hornet swarms or whatever
23:28:24 <Eronarn> why? it is fine if there are two kinds of bees (we already have two)
23:28:50 <OG17> and they're fairly similar
23:29:08 <OG17> vs "size of dog" and "size of bug"
23:29:40 <OG17> maybe no one else is going to care about this
23:30:05 <due> no, someone else will care
23:30:07 <due> this is crawl
23:30:12 <due> our bike shed is HUGE
23:30:29 <Eronarn> oh man i just had the idea
23:30:32 <Eronarn> best idea rather
23:30:38 <Eronarn> dancing weapon swarms
23:30:45 <OG17> toothpick swarm
23:30:46 <Eronarn> "The knives butcher you!"
23:31:06 <monqy> will dancing knives merge into swarms
23:31:20 <OG17> is a normal knife a dungeon knife
23:31:20 <monqy> I was actually thinking swarms for dancing stacks of ammo
23:31:34 <monqy> since they naturally stack and all
23:31:51 <OG17> it'd be cool to do something with ranged weapons in blade
23:32:02 <Eronarn> OG17: a crawl knife is actually a fairly large knife, one usable as a weapon
23:32:05 <OG17> though "making blade more interesting" isn't exactly difficult
23:32:11 <OG17> much like any knife?
23:32:11 <Eronarn> monqy: ahaha i love that idea
23:32:33 <Eronarn> swarm of bees, flock of butterflies, volley of arrows
23:33:18 <OG17> people are going to want to tukima a stack of two hundred arrows
23:33:25 <Eronarn> OG17: it should be a separate spell
23:33:27 <OG17> let them do it, but make them angry
23:33:30 <Eronarn> in a different school
23:33:38 <Eronarn> possibly
23:34:15 <monqy> sensibly, shouldn't there be a cap of swarming arrows per square?
23:34:33 <Eronarn> monqy: there should be a cap on the number of arrows you can wield at once
23:34:35 <monqy> soft/random cap, maybe
23:34:40 <Eronarn> holding 800 is dumb
23:34:47 <OG17> I'd think it'd spread out as needed
23:34:50 <monqy> holding iron dragon corpse
23:35:07 <OG17> it's not dumb as far as enchanting goes, arbitrary limits would be worse
23:35:10 <Eronarn> or alternately it works like s2s
23:35:15 <due> swarms of iron dragon corpses
23:35:17 <Eronarn> it just takes as many as it can, up to a power-based limit
23:35:22 <OG17> though why you need to wield ammo is a question in itself
23:35:26 <OG17> for enchanting
23:35:50 <OG17> corpse swarms are the best thing
23:36:06 <Eronarn> i want zombie body part swarms to be a thing
23:36:45 <monqy> for twisted res. or anything else too?
23:36:47 <OG17> I've thought that undead zombie heads should stay animated when severed
23:36:53 <OG17> because it's funny
23:37:07 <OG17> er, undead hydra heads
23:37:34 <ais523> clearly, tukima'ing ammo should mulch it
23:37:39 <ais523> because any other combat use of it does
23:37:53 <ais523> get the arrow swarm to mulch every ammo in the swarm at normal mulch rates whenever the swarm hits anything
23:37:56 <Eronarn> monqy: twisted res = all corpses on screen explode, parts scatter as swarms, swarms coalesce and form into abominations when they reach a peak density, and if you recast it you might get new abominations or the part swarms might adhere to your existing ones
23:38:00 <Eronarn> imo
23:38:23 <OG17> that sounds cool but in practice would be spammy as hell
23:38:46 <Eronarn> OG17: well it would actually be a cloud combat spell so it could be justified as being spammy
23:38:52 <Eronarn> also you can only really cast it once in a fight
23:39:11 <due> i tihn kthat would work as a different spell
23:39:18 <due> or in combination to any abominations you have on screen
23:39:28 <due> however twisted resurrection really should makke all the parts crawl together
23:39:32 * due back to work
23:40:08 <Eronarn> hmm maybe if it didn't do any exploding and just autobutchered each corpse in LOS
23:40:16 <Eronarn> smite target to choose a focus point
23:40:25 <Eronarn> swarms start from the corpses in LOS, strength based on # of chunks
23:40:40 <Eronarn> start heading to the focus point and merge
23:41:03 <Eronarn> whenever they reach a critical threshold an abomination pops out, until all the swarms are dissipated
23:41:12 <OG17> it doesn't need to be targeted, just use the player
23:41:29 <Eronarn> well, targeted lets you use it a bit more tactically
23:41:33 <OG17> you have haunt for that sort of thing
23:42:49 <Eronarn> but i think it's the start to a good spell anyways, though i might like to see it as nec/tmut rather than just nec if that went through
23:45:28 <Eronarn> oh well, bed, i wrote all of this down anyways