00:07:17 -!- TGWi has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:09:38 -!- purge has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:16:36 -!- Kurper has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:31:07 Trove price changes. (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3442) by elliptic 00:50:16 elliptic: I'm a bit curious, why does it ask for slimy and abyssal, specifically? 00:51:01 easier ones will be gotten in the normal course of a 3-rune game, and I was trying to avoid prices like that 00:51:24 for harder ones, the loot is no longer very interesting 00:51:36 aha 00:52:20 I'd like it if you could have trove prices like serpentine rune with some sort of timer on them (or upper bound for XL or whatever), but I couldn't figure out a good way of framing that 00:52:44 incidentally, I had the idea of making ziggurat entry prices more interesting 00:53:23 and using stuff like "get all the pan runes" or "convert to X god" instead of gold prices, at least sometimes 00:55:07 that doesn't work so well for pan zigs, though 01:08:26 -!- Textmode has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:18:02 -!- casmith789 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:18:31 -!- casmith789 has joined ##crawl-dev 01:46:29 Replace blood splatters with pruney flesh splatters for Glaive of Prune wielders (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3443) by MrMisterMonkey 02:31:44 -!- upsy has joined ##crawl-dev 02:35:04 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 02:35:44 hi 02:53:26 hi 02:58:12 seen that? https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3440 03:42:04 auto_pickup_noburden doesn't always prevent autopickup from burdening you. (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3444) by elliptic 04:00:02 ?? git 04:00:02 git[1/2]: git clone git://gitorious.org/crawl/crawl.git 04:01:28 -!- evilmike has quit [] 04:01:54 -!- Moriasc has joined ##crawl-dev 04:22:16 Monsters stay clinging when polymorphed/shapeshifting. (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3445) by elliptic 04:38:50 -!- Pedjt has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:40:12 -!- Pedjt has joined ##crawl-dev 04:44:34 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 04:49:57 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 04:53:51 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 05:02:13 -!- monqy has quit [Quit: hello] 05:05:38 -!- Pedjt has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:15:58 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 05:38:02 moin 05:59:58 -!- Vandal has joined ##crawl-dev 06:00:12 03zaba 07master * r01d299289f17 10/: Let _fixup_stone_stairs overwrite vaults if preserve_vault_stairs is false. 06:03:24 moin moin 06:04:08 Napkin, what's up 06:05:55 -!- eith has quit [Quit: sleep] 06:06:22 oh, not much, a bit lazy ;) 06:06:33 how are you doing? 06:08:43 a little sleepy 06:09:02 afternoon for you? 06:09:10 15:09 06:09:23 -2 here.. and already having the same "problem" ;) 06:09:35 * Napkin is going for fresh air * 06:23:41 The usability testing team has been named Dungeon Olms 06:24:28 <3! 06:24:34 not Dungeon Alms? 06:25:34 oh, olms are those fish things aren't they? 06:25:40 after this ones? http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olme 06:26:36 Isn't the olm an amphibium? 06:26:36 dpeg: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them. 06:26:46 it is 06:26:52 Keskitalo: the name of your daughter is better :) 06:27:15 !messages 06:27:15 (1/2) kilobyte said (1w 3d 15h 18m 21s ago): people say 'ap' for Evilyon would be better than 'aP' 06:27:18 !messages 06:27:19 (1/1) Eronarn said (1d 4h 47m 32s ago): beogh and TSO perma-enhance your allies' weapons and armor (but not yours). This is already being used in scummy ways. Nerf! 06:28:11 dpeg: you must chime into the discussion on rgrm with your opinion that OS are outdated and that only public server user counts now 06:28:40 s/rgrm/rgrd 06:28:57 it's all cloud computing now! or was that something different? 06:29:39 it's all meph cloud computing now! 06:30:23 dpeg: I was just saying when you were leaving, that Vellamo is an old Finnish goddes of waters 06:31:12 bhaak: that's a good name for it in genera; cloud computing confuses the crap out of me. 06:32:08 hehe 06:32:09 Keskitalo: how thoughtful :) 06:32:15 yeah, the fish things, the olms 06:32:19 bhaak: not sure I'll comment there 06:32:40 Oh, they're not called olms in English? 06:33:02 Yes they are. 06:33:20 I had to read a paper on cloud computing on Swedish :( 06:33:32 *in 06:33:58 felirx! 06:34:09 felirx, Keskitalo, can you register for gitorious and send me your usernames? 06:34:10 strange, I always hear people complain about Swedish 06:34:19 I have been added as a member in gitorious already 06:34:30 Oh 06:34:33 oh you have too 06:34:37 ... by me of all people 06:34:40 the swedish language. the curse that haunts finns forever 06:34:45 due added you to the "dcss-developers" team, as a member 06:34:51 Yes. :( 06:35:45 funnily enough, a 2 credit course refreshed my Swedish skills sufficiently enough that I could follow whatever they were talking about in Swedish Idol 2009 and 2010 06:36:29 felirx: you would have been able to follow that with a course in Suaheli, too 06:36:40 felirx: you poor thing. you should get your money back 06:37:16 only Reason I watched those we're the fact that on semifinal in 2009, Erik sang Iron Maiden / Queen and did it bloody good 06:37:20 and in 2010 Enter Sandman 06:39:24 I hope "Balls to the walls". 06:40:25 their semi final has the concept that judges choose the songs. First song is selected as a sort of "this you're good at" 06:40:35 and the second song is chosen to test the limits 06:42:57 * dpeg questions the usefulness of TV sets. 06:43:28 streamed from random suspicious Interwebs sites of course 06:43:39 haven't owned a tv in some 6 years 06:48:13 due: I should I suppose! 06:48:40 I sent c-r-d some usability testing mail again, about aims of testing / questions to the testers after the test 06:49:03 crt tv sets make great beds for cats! 06:49:08 oh wait, you hate cats 06:49:38 Keskitalo: <3! 06:51:02 We have a TV in the storage room, I used to play PS2 games but there's no room (or time) now 06:57:40 the whole appeal CRT TVs have for cats is that they tend to be warm 06:57:54 that would imply the TV having been used, which is fundamentally wrong 06:57:58 now where did i put my public key again.. 06:58:22 due: I'm now registered as evktalo 06:58:49 done 06:58:55 27 seconds, not bad :) 07:00:05 not at all :) 07:00:20 Just zelgadis left, I think. 07:00:48 due: you have Haran and Darshan? 07:00:58 dpeg: yes 07:01:02 wow 07:01:19 haran was very quick to respond! 07:01:26 kilobyte: my parents' default is TV on 07:05:01 nacht! 07:05:03 ciao, etc 07:05:10 good night! 07:41:10 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 07:57:37 -!- ais523_ has joined ##crawl-dev 08:23:29 -!- Kurper has joined ##crawl-dev 08:50:43 Changing piety in wizmode is buggy (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3446) by OG17 08:55:01 someone do a commit, please? :D 09:26:13 pretty please? 09:26:23 ;) 09:40:18 -!- ais523_ has quit [Quit: Page closed] 09:43:40 -!- OG17 has quit [] 09:45:32 wait did the repository move again? 09:45:40 or have there really been no commits in 4 days 09:46:50 oh it did :P 09:46:52 it's been moved to gitorious 09:48:51 -!- OG17 has joined ##crawl-dev 09:53:27 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 09:56:30 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:05:16 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 10:09:45 -!- galehar has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:18:14 -!- Pedjt has joined ##crawl-dev 10:34:50 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:43:49 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 10:47:44 -!- Iainuki has left ##crawl-dev 10:50:41 hey MarvinPA do you have any plan to revisit apts broadly in .8? since you've done a few but i'm not sure whether you intend to go systematic with it 11:13:09 -!- casmith789 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:23:34 -!- casmith789 has joined ##crawl-dev 11:43:13 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:44:34 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 11:51:14 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:56:26 -!- Sequell has quit [*.net *.split] 11:56:26 -!- ivan has quit [*.net *.split] 11:56:27 -!- MakMorn has quit [*.net *.split] 11:56:28 -!- humeral has quit [*.net *.split] 11:56:35 -!- ais523 has quit [*.net *.split] 11:56:37 -!- CIA-37 has quit [*.net *.split] 11:56:37 -!- stabwound has quit [*.net *.split] 11:56:37 -!- Eronarn has quit [*.net *.split] 11:56:38 -!- Vandal has quit [*.net *.split] 11:56:39 -!- Twinge has quit [*.net *.split] 11:56:39 -!- elliptic has quit [*.net *.split] 11:56:39 -!- st_ has quit [*.net *.split] 11:59:35 -!- CIA-26 has joined ##crawl-dev 12:00:39 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 12:01:04 -!- Mu_ has quit [Quit: Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place.] 12:06:12 -!- Vandal has joined ##crawl-dev 12:06:12 -!- Twinge has joined ##crawl-dev 12:06:12 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 12:06:12 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 12:06:54 -!- Eronarn has joined ##crawl-dev 12:06:54 -!- Sequell has joined ##crawl-dev 12:06:54 -!- ivan has joined ##crawl-dev 12:06:54 -!- MakMorn has joined ##crawl-dev 12:06:54 -!- humeral has joined ##crawl-dev 12:09:57 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 12:09:57 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 12:10:13 -!- ais523 has quit [*.net *.split] 12:13:24 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 12:22:10 -!- casmith_789 has joined ##crawl-dev 12:22:17 -!- casmith789 has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:22:29 -!- casmith_789 is now known as casmith789 12:22:50 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 12:31:49 -!- blabber has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:54:36 -!- ais523 has quit [*.net *.split] 12:56:07 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 13:02:16 -!- Moriasc has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:03:45 Looks like Xom has taken over freenode. 13:05:00 dpeg: have you seen my trove patch? https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3442 13:07:40 yes! 13:07:52 I am quite busy these days, is all :| 13:08:13 But I would've replied to kilobyte but several people beat me to it. 13:11:20 -!- paxed has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:12:51 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 13:14:58 -!- monqy has joined ##crawl-dev 13:15:32 -!- Moriasc has joined ##crawl-dev 13:16:30 swarms are going good :D 13:16:39 i think i will have them testable today 13:18:03 galehar cybermg on SA: Past the midgame, it was basically a Crystal Plate Mail borefest. I never really felt like I was in danger except for a few choice moments against lots of fiends in Pan where I got careless. The new GDR levels are way overpowered, and CPM provides more GDR than it did in .5 (probably comparable AC given that it can be enchanted to +14, to offset Armor skill providing less AC). I read they're looking to nerf CPM GDR by having GDR grow a 13:18:10 !tell galehar cybermg on SA: Past the midgame, it was basically a Crystal Plate Mail borefest. I never really felt like I was in danger except for a few choice moments against lots of fiends in Pan where I got careless. The new GDR levels are way overpowered, and CPM provides more GDR than it did in .5 (probably comparable AC given that it can be enchanted to +14, to offset Armor skill providing less AC). I read they're looking to nerf CPM GDR by having GDR 13:18:18 Maximum message length is 300 characters. Eschew verbosity, Gladys! 13:18:52 !tell galehar cybermg on SA: Past the midgame, it was basically a Crystal Plate Mail borefest. I never really felt like I was in danger except for a few choice moments against lots of fiends in Pan where I got careless. The new GDR levels are way overpowered, and CPM provides more GDR than it did in .5 (probably comparable AC given that it can be enchanted to +14, to offset Armor skill providing less AC)... 13:18:53 Maximum message length is 300 characters. Eschew verbosity, Gladys! 13:19:04 !tell galehar cybermg on SA: Past the midgame, it was basically a Crystal Plate Mail borefest. I never really felt like I was in danger except for a few choice moments against lots of fiends in Pan where I got careless. The new GDR levels are way overpowered, and CPM provides more GDR than it did in .5 .... 13:19:06 dpeg: OK, I'll let galehar know. 13:19:28 !tell galehar .... (probably comparable AC given that it can be enchanted to +14, to offset Armor skill providing less AC)... 13:19:31 dpeg: OK, I'll let galehar know. 13:20:17 !tell galehar ... I read they're looking to nerf CPM GDR by having GDR grow as the square of armor rating. The middle armors will get a boost, plate mail will stay about the same, and CPM will get way worse. [end] 13:20:18 dpeg: OK, I'll let galehar know. 13:21:48 dpeg: not clear to me whether you know this yourself, but CPM GDR already got nerfed 13:21:56 !tell kilobyte cybermg on SA: Okawaru is more powerful than before. It's iffy whether Heroism is better than might [...] Finesse is ridiculous. It is a significant buff over haste since it's 2x speed rather than 1.5, and most ridiculously, it STACKS WITH HASTE. This means that oka worshippers alone can attain an absurd 3x combat speedup. 13:21:58 Maximum message length is 300 characters. Eschew verbosity, Gladys! 13:22:12 elliptic: I want to tell galehar what players found out :) 13:22:19 !tell kilobyte cybermg on SA: Okawaru is more powerful than before. It's iffy whether Heroism is better than might [...] Finesse is ridiculous. It is a significant buff over haste since it's 2x speed rather than 1.5, and most ridiculously, it STACKS WITH HASTE. 13:22:20 dpeg: OK, I'll let kilobyte know. 13:23:06 (I also have to say that GDR does very little in extended endgame, which most people don't realize) 13:23:40 i thought haste no longer speeds your attack-speed? 13:24:05 or what was the nerf? 13:24:10 haste speeds your attack speed, but it doesn't stack with finesse for increasing attack speed 13:24:10 i thought it didn't stack with haste? 13:24:32 you can have both haste and finesse active, but for melee/ranged that is just the same as having finesse 13:25:16 that 3x combat speedup is just wrong 13:25:29 elliptic: good to know 13:25:38 sorry for pestering everyone with trash... I thought I was alone :) 13:25:48 nevah ;> 13:25:57 They're watching me! 13:26:05 * dpeg watches back! 13:34:22 -!- Moriasc_ has joined ##crawl-dev 13:36:33 -!- Moriasc has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:36:43 -!- Moriasc_ is now known as Moriasc 13:36:50 dpeg: can we cut clouds arbitrarily doing more damage to players, please? it's bad enough that they use totally different resist checks for meph 13:37:08 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 13:38:22 I haven't done anything with/to clouds. 13:38:59 i don't know how long it's been there, i only ran across it because i was reading cloud.cc 13:49:03 ahaha 13:49:27 i wasn't paying attention during testing and replaced the monster meph cloud instead of the spell one 13:49:29 The swamp drake breathes noxious fumes at you. 13:49:29 _The noxious blast hits you! 13:49:29 Press: ? - help, v - describe, . - travel 13:49:29 Floor. 13:49:29 There is a cloud of bees here. 13:50:16 now i kind of want to make a drake that does breathe bees :3 13:50:20 and flowers! 13:51:36 ah, flowers 13:51:46 Dancing weapons and flowers to pick up... 13:53:26 uhoh, that's a problem; it doesn't like the monsters having non-existent locations 13:53:36 though they seem to save fine - they just generate error messages on load/unload 13:59:58 -!- ortoslon has quit [Quit: bye] 14:13:24 -!- TGWi has joined ##crawl-dev 14:15:01 -!- lorimer_ is now known as remirol 14:17:43 Charmed Centaur shot me with Wand of Draining (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3447) by XuaXua 14:18:30 I like the idea of a bee-breather too 14:18:37 it'd basically be like a monster butterfly-spammer 14:18:52 yes i also remember that episode of the simpsons 14:20:56 can vaults be non-contiguous? 14:21:04 TGWi: yes 14:21:16 hmm, interesting 14:22:38 -!- ZanniqlcKzxkq has joined ##crawl-dev 14:22:58 -!- Zannick has quit [Disconnected by services] 14:23:06 -!- ZanniqlcKzxkq is now known as Zannick 14:25:48 hmm, i might have to make these be just mon defs rather than actual monsters 14:34:33 dpeg: finesse doesn't stack with haste; you can have both but combat will be only 2x as fast rather than 3x 14:34:59 kilobyte: okay, I thought you wouldn't let something gross like that slip :) 14:35:06 lemme check it again, there might be some bug since some haxoring was needed 14:35:23 kilobyte: was just retailing impressions by some player (and I don't expect anyone to read SA). 14:35:27 right, I spent most of the time debugging ranged combat 14:35:51 -!- syllogism has quit [] 14:36:20 for Heroism vs Might, for unarmed it is sadly indeed a bump, due to the inconsistent way unarmed combat works 14:36:48 kilobyte: i don't suppose you know if there's a good way to store a monster without placing it on the map? (for swarms - this actually works as expected if something breathes and then the clouds dissipate, but currently breaks if you save while there are swarms on screen) 14:36:51 regular weapons are nerfed, especially short blades 14:37:48 Eronarn: is the monster supposed to act somehow, or to be totally put in a limbo? 14:38:36 limbo; the monster is there for figuring out resists, HP, AI, etc. but doesn't directly act 14:39:15 is it an actual monster or just a token? 14:39:32 right now it's a monster* = NULL in the cloud struct, and a function to assign a monster of the proper type if it is a valid swarm (valid swarms defined via enum) 14:40:27 previously i wasn't setting mon pos, but this = a bunch of error messages on saving if the monsters are still there when you save (but the monsters do get removed properly if you don't save until after the cloud disappears) 14:40:48 right now just as a test i am setting mon pos, to the cloud pos - which of course actually places the monster there 14:41:15 I'm not sure what you want to get 14:42:19 kilobyte: a cloud, which contains a pointer to a monster that is only used for some purposes (e.g., checking resists against it, inspecting its description) and is destroyed when the cloud is 14:42:54 is there any non-volatile information? 14:43:16 not sure what you mean by that 14:43:20 I mean, something like alignment, summon chain, hp, enchantments, etc 14:43:32 as opposed to resists or description which are static data 14:44:38 kilobyte: well, the intent was to have alignment, HP, behaviors, maybe some enchantments (like fear) 14:45:10 i can probably do it another way if it is not feasible to have a "limbo" monster 14:45:37 but i figured i'd at least check in since in principle it doesn't sound undoable; it's already working fine until it comes time to save 14:45:46 ie, an actual monster that is not fully placed 14:46:03 are other monsters allowed in that spot? 14:46:24 or is placed, but doesn't conflict with other monsters (like submerged ones) - that would be fine too 14:46:35 and yes, a swarm acts like a cloud for most purposes 14:47:30 main differences: affected by some wide-area spells; can actually move rather than just spreading; has some pathfinding capability 14:48:12 submerged monsters don't allow anything else in their spot 14:48:42 hmm, do you mean just other monsters? players can go over them 14:49:27 at least i think, maybe it's just swapping. that one ely vault with the pacified fish that won't unsubmerge 14:50:20 there can never be more than one monster in the same location, there is a hundred places that rely on that 14:50:25 or perhaps a thousand 14:52:49 here's an idea: let's have a monster flag that prevents the monster from being placed in the mgrd 14:53:36 this would make it have .pos() info, but not actually 'exist' in the map itself? or am i misunderstanding? 14:53:54 this will make it invisible to anything that wants to find monsters there 14:53:57 yeah 14:54:43 that would be handy - you could use it for this, but also for say, a spell that removes a monster from time 14:56:26 is it a lot of effort to add a flag like that? i don't mind trying myself, but i'm not sure where checking for it should actually go (one of the mon-place.cc functions?) 15:02:38 I planned something similar for spriggan assassins, so I may take a look 15:03:32 planned this for after 0.8, but lemme try a proof of concept 15:05:57 cool :) i think swarms could fit in well in .8; i have several things planned that could us ethem 15:10:02 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:10:54 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 15:15:57 -!- Twinge_ has joined ##crawl-dev 15:16:13 -!- clouded has joined ##crawl-dev 15:25:02 -!- Vandal has quit [*.net *.split] 15:25:02 -!- Twinge has quit [*.net *.split] 15:25:02 -!- elliptic has quit [*.net *.split] 15:25:02 -!- st_ has quit [*.net *.split] 15:25:16 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 15:25:28 -!- Vandal has joined ##crawl-dev 15:25:55 KoboldLord has an interesting Pan proposal on the wiki. 15:26:42 -!- clouded is now known as st_ 15:29:01 we'd have to save unique levels, but that's doable 15:29:39 yes 15:29:50 however, even though proposed changes make sense, the rationale for them doesn't 15:30:14 can't that be tweaked away? 15:30:33 since it applies just as well to every single level other than Abyss and Hells 15:30:50 the rationale, tweaked? 15:30:51 sure, but only Pan is strong enough to expel anti-heros 15:30:56 kilobyte: the flavour 15:31:47 there are other ideas... Pan levels could just slowly crumble away, with monsters being generated (ranged attackers, naturally) 15:32:00 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 15:33:32 I like that Pan proposal 15:33:37 -!- ivan has quit [Quit: Coyote finally caught me] 15:33:54 -!- ivan has joined ##crawl-dev 15:33:54 -!- ivan has quit [Changing host] 15:33:54 -!- ivan has joined ##crawl-dev 15:35:20 I don't see what's the point in stressing ranged attackers 15:35:36 already most threats are ranged, that's boring 15:36:48 torment, hellfire, fireballs, mutations, etc 15:37:44 kilobyte: well, just to go well with the crumbling walls. 15:38:03 Still another idea: make Pan levels much, much smaller. 15:38:25 It would prove useful if I had ever visited Pan. But in good Linley tradition, I never did :) 15:39:19 well, what's the point of discussing changes without checking out the present state? 15:39:44 current Pan is no better and no worse than regular dungeon levels 15:41:10 realism problems: if everything is crumbling away, how come anything exists at all? There would have to be as much new terrain appearing. 15:41:10 Hey, I invented ziggurats without ever visiting one. :) 15:41:31 kilobyte: the crumbling is a defence mechanism. 15:42:01 including daeva Zig levels? They're so much more brutal than even pan ones. 15:42:50 six daevas on Zig:5 15:43:49 yes, we lack hoy monsters... 15:43:55 holy 15:44:17 this might be a large problem if we're to use holyhaul monsters somewhere... they tend to be all high-end where it comes to difficulty 15:44:45 we can make holy zig levels come up later, as we do with some other level types, too 15:45:15 like, pearl dragons win 90:10 vs pan lords 15:45:22 kilobyte: daeva levels aren't more brutal than pan levels now that the TSO blasting when you killed one is harmless 15:45:44 dangerous, but much more predictable and controllable 15:46:29 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:46:49 they were only really mean back when TSO could do 80 damage to you whenever you killed one 15:47:03 ooh, a nice arena crash 15:47:39 pan lords nuke daevas 15:48:23 elliptic: the thing is, few pan lords have big smite-targetted spells in every slot. Thus, most of the time they do something relatively harmless. 15:48:25 !fight pearl dragon v pandemonium lord t:50 delay:15 15:49:05 RjY: that was 10-on-10 15:49:43 1-on-1 got 77:22 15:49:44 kilobyte: sure, but when they do something it is sometimes far worse than smite... that's what I meant by being less predictable 15:49:59 and they have better resists and higher speed 15:50:34 also daeva levels are really daevas + angels, and the angels don't do anything until you get to melee range 15:50:35 if you fight 20 of them, it's sure at least a couple will have torment, and 5 or so will have summon 1 which will land several torments per turn on your ass 15:50:42 yep 15:51:02 also summon eyeballs and silence 15:51:20 will be more interesting with the new holy monsters in the set 15:51:28 so you're screwed without necromutation 15:51:34 and simple paralysis... mikee_ recently died to a zig:4 pan level with two lords 15:51:43 one had paralysis and one had dispel undead (he was a mummy) 15:51:45 new or old paralysis? 15:51:58 haha 15:55:42 hmm... should Tukima's Dance Party work on holy weapons if you're undead? 15:56:03 IMO it should, but they should be hostile 15:56:37 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 15:56:41 kilobyte: i favor it animating all weapons, but weapons being neutral by default; increasing power = more converted to friendly, and if you're good or evil then the opposite weapons will be hostile instead of neutral 15:56:45 it accidentally got into pan lord spell list (I didn't know it sometimes uses player ghost lists), so they like to get mad with it when duking it vs daevas 15:57:09 the neutral ones can then dance :) 15:57:40 technically, Terpsichore is a ghost too 15:58:04 about tukima, what do people think about just removing the L3 spell and restricting the effect to dance party? 15:58:32 elliptic: i'd rather see dancing weapons just plain be weaker, honestly 15:58:52 I'd let her pass since she's in no way evil, but evil players and pan lords -- or TSOite players and drain/pain/vamp weapons, not so much 15:58:56 or raising the level of the spell to 5 or 6, maybe 15:59:06 Eronarn: +1, especially big ones 15:59:32 I am more and more swaying towards just removing Dance Party from everyone but Terpsichore 15:59:42 all the issues would instantly fix themselves 15:59:48 kilobyte: dance party is cute and it's not broken if it only summons a handful 15:59:54 tukima's dance alone is still problematic, no? 16:00:00 and yes, that too 16:00:01 dance party isn't nearly as overpowered as dance 16:00:07 we will want a summon cap at some point anyway 16:00:17 elliptic: uhm, with ten giant spiked clubs? 16:00:19 dpeg: let's do the summon cap for .8 :) 16:00:25 Mu_ was playing an OgSu the other day and was saying that tukima's dance was stronger than any of his summons 16:00:29 I'd rather have dance party massively overpowered and not available to players for that reason, than weaker but still usable 16:00:34 Eronarn: no, too many ramifications 16:00:35 and he was only using 3 or 4 GSCs at a time 16:00:37 kilobyte: that's partially a problem of letting it summon 10 16:00:38 because the effect is so hilarious 16:00:54 yeah dancing giant spiked clubs are easy the most powerful summon in the game 16:01:15 the dance spell is awesome, we "just" need to look into the numbers are tweak them 16:01:31 three of them defeat mennas reliably (don't try to arena this, there is a bug somewhere that makes arena dancing weapons much weaker) 16:01:39 imo make dancing weapons all attackspeed 10 imo, movespeed from 5 to 15 depending on how heavy the weapon is 16:01:58 and noticeably less damage 16:02:00 ./crawl -arena 'dancing weapon ; giant spiked club v pandemonium lord delay:0 t:99' 16:02:04 elliptic: perhaps you could apply the same bug to the main game in order to balance the weapons? 16:02:07 not a _single_ win for the clubs 16:02:20 daevas had 22:77 16:02:20 kilobyte: as I said, arena dancing weapons are bugged (or the game is) 16:02:25 they have less HP or something 16:02:27 my giant spiked clubs killed wiglaf and mara at the same time in less than a dozen turns 16:02:30 you can test this out easily 16:02:42 so stop posting arena figures for them, please 16:03:10 another possibility would be making the weapons actually *dance* 16:03:17 so that they're powerful but don't attack every turn 16:03:33 Eronarn: yes, weapon speed should so much depend on weapon speed... I've been saying this for yewars :) 16:03:35 permaconfusing the weapons? 16:03:50 and flavouring it as dancing? 16:04:15 I want actual dancing... but that is another topic. 16:04:19 ais523: no... i mean something like: 16:04:28 kilobyte: what about linking TD's weapon attack speed to underlying weapon speed? 16:05:21 dpeg: isn't it already working? 16:05:30 they attack a target; this increments number, at the start of each turn if (random2(3) < number) they move to another tile adjacent to their target instead of attacking 16:05:40 kilobyte: is it? If so, we need to pronounce the effect more, so that GSC's are noticeably slower. 16:05:49 of course, monster weapons have a minimal delay of 10 16:05:54 -!- Keskitalo has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:05:58 which is a bug IMO 16:06:08 yes 16:06:09 so they circle around their target, but don't attack every turn 16:06:16 -!- Keskitalo has joined ##crawl-dev 16:06:29 Eronarn: years ago I made some dancing patterns for two (and also four) weapons. 16:06:32 changing this would affect balance a good deal of course, but it doesn't make it any less wrong 16:06:42 kilobyte: don't understand? 16:06:53 It would clearly be a nerf to the worst offenders? 16:06:56 one cute way of doing this would be: they can't attack into a square they've just attacked into, or one they've just moved from 16:07:10 this would allow you to dance with a dancing weapon, by following where it goes 16:07:20 Eronarn: nice 16:07:28 would also make using them in corridors problematic? 16:07:37 yes, very 16:07:46 one needs a proper ballroom 16:09:06 well, the Blade level is appropriately open 16:09:35 kilobyte: can you figure out what the current weapon speed -> monster speed correlation is? 16:10:30 one point that i'd like to say: i think tukima's should be strictly worse than a same-level summoning spell, even when using GSCs 16:11:53 pan lords with sputterflies on the arena are so cute :) 16:12:55 can't wait till i get swarm version of sputterflies going <3 16:15:06 03kilobyte 07master * rc23c63aedbf0 10/: Fix a Dance Party arena crash. 16:15:08 03kilobyte 07master * r114e01996ae8 10/: Fix a round-off error for Haste+Finesse. 16:15:18 -!- ZChris13 has joined ##crawl-dev 16:15:45 Eronarn: why that? You have to carry around things with TD, something not needed for other summonings (S2S excluded). 16:17:04 dpeg: other summonings are in *summoning*; summoning summons should be unquestionably the best, or there should be significant advantages to having a wide array of summons, or there should be effects beyond summoning creatures in summoning (non-exclusive) 16:18:25 or TD gets a Sum component? 16:18:41 dpeg: from a quick glance, it appears monsters suffer half of weapon's delay over 10 16:18:43 kilobyte: sorry I am so pushing about the issue; I have the feeling that an appropriate TD nerf is not so far off. 16:18:56 kilobyte: but cannot be slower than normal speed? 16:19:07 dpeg: if TD gets a Sum component, why not Animate Dead? 16:20:02 yeah 16:20:59 kilobyte: we agree that G(S)C should be slower than 10? So that's where a change is needed... 16:21:19 actually, there is just one weapon faster than base delay 10: quick blade 16:21:20 Eronarn: gameplay :) 16:21:30 kilobyte: so it is speed 10 for all of them? 16:21:34 i wasn't that impressed with TD cast on weapons other than GSC tbh, even great maces seemed far less impressive (anecdotally) 16:21:54 slowing down attack speed for GSC would certainly help, but part of the problem is that a dancing GSC is also really really durable 16:22:02 high AC,HP, and resists 16:22:06 always _slower_ (or for daggers, same) 16:22:52 -!- ais523 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:23:02 a dancing GSC (or even a great mace) makes a great shield even aside from doing damage 16:23:08 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 16:23:09 a monster with a quick blade or a dagger takes 10 aut to attack, with any other weapon they are slower 16:23:23 it's kind of nice that only ogres and trolls can get something so powerful, but right now you could probably make it through 90% of the game relying solely on a few GSC's :P 16:23:58 kilobyte: is that a bug, a misdesign, or good?? 16:23:58 GSC in particular, with base 18, have 14 delay for monsters (players end up at 7 with enough skill) 16:24:20 ogre tukimancers are epic. 16:24:59 dpeg: for quick blades, a bug, but monsters about never ever get to wield them 16:25:09 for other weapons, just an inconsistency 16:25:17 dpeg: i think it is much better from a gameplay perspective if we go one of the three routes i listed, to make summoning feel worthwhile, rather than going backwards on the trend of making spells into not-summons 16:25:24 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 16:25:54 galehar: hi! 16:26:04 the problem is, monsters don't have skills 16:26:06 hi 16:26:07 galehar: You have 3 messages. Use !messages to read them. 16:26:14 !messages 16:26:14 (1/3) dpeg said (3h 7m 9s ago): cybermg on SA: Past the midgame, it was basically a Crystal Plate Mail borefest. I never really felt like I was in danger except for a few choice moments against lots of fiends in Pan where I got careless. The new GDR levels are way overpowered, and CPM provides more GDR than it did in .5 .... 16:26:14 what skill should a stone giant have? 16:26:17 (fwiw i think the latter two are far more interesting than 'make summoning always the best summons') 16:26:19 Eronarn: okay, but that shouldn't hinder us from buff/nerfing TD 16:26:42 !messages 16:26:42 (1/2) dpeg said (3h 7m 11s ago): .... (probably comparable AC given that it can be enchanted to +14, to offset Armor skill providing less AC)... 16:26:52 oh, it should definitely be nerfed; i'm just referring to that to give perspective on the degree of nerfing i feel is appropriate 16:26:56 !messages 16:26:56 (1/1) dpeg said (3h 6m 39s ago): ... I read they're looking to nerf CPM GDR by having GDR grow as the square of armor rating. The middle armors will get a boost, plate mail will stay about the same, and CPM will get way worse. [end] 16:27:10 galehar: CPM has been nerfed since, just wanted to share this piece of feedback. 16:27:32 so this date from before the CPM nerf / middle armour boost? 16:27:44 galehar: with respect to stairs, no immediate attacks once maybe okay. Anything else is not, players are already stairdancing. 16:27:49 galehar: yes 16:28:08 oh i should let him know it's already been nerfed :P 16:28:08 ok, thanks for the feedback :) 16:29:24 is there any new commit mailing list btw? 16:29:25 Eronarn: oh, btw, I think that things like snakes and dancers should follow under the summon cap. (Might make an exception for zombies.) 16:29:45 Mu_: I am also interested... I feel like a limb is missing without my daily dose of commit mails. 16:30:09 about stairs, ais523 explained how it works in nethack: monsters cannot move or take actions (as if they had a zero movement and action speed) until they and the player have simultaneously been on some level at the end of a turn 16:30:30 yes, that means only once 16:31:07 I am fine with that. Perhaps ask around here? 16:31:11 dpeg: back to Haste+Finesse, it indeed was better due to Haste not dividing player speeds cleanly (10 / 1.5), so the report was mostly valid. 16:31:25 kilobyte: ah, so it was good for something :) 16:31:51 kilobyte: if you'd write me how dancing weapons get assigned HP, AC, resists, and speed, I'd try to come up with a better formula. 16:32:27 dpeg: well, i think that would depend on how the summoning cap is implemented... there are lots of proposals 16:33:25 !source init_dancing_weapon 16:33:35 Lines pasted to http://paste.scsys.co.uk/88464 16:34:34 GSC get mad AC 16:34:53 kilobyte: i don't think there should be much variance in HP/AC 16:34:55 heh, a bardiche has only 10 AC, GSC 17 16:35:06 even a giant club isn't that much bigger than other weapons 16:35:38 that table says that GSC gets 35 AC, no? 16:36:05 at high power, scroll down a bit 16:36:10 even something like greatsword vs. dagger - the former is primarily just a few times longer 16:36:22 ah, I see 16:36:30 oh, there is also the material issue 16:36:34 GSCs are made of wood 16:36:55 when i started casting TD i had zero hexes skill, and my GSC's were still far better than any of my summons 16:37:59 should make it work like apportation, imo. just plain fails at lower power 16:38:03 !log . ogsu 16:38:03 4. itsmu, XL25 OgSu, T:110836: http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/itsmu/morgue-itsmu-20110213-154520.txt 16:38:14 (also make it a charm, seriously) 16:38:23 ended with pretty decent power i guess, still only 7 hexes skill 16:39:43 Eronarn: er??? How exactly could you argue for it to be one? 16:40:02 kilobyte: take a look at cast_tukimas_dance... is it actually making use of spell power except for duration? 16:40:06 without completely retheming most of the split, that is 16:40:17 -!- ais523 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:40:43 yeah thematically making a weapon dance and skip through the air feels a lot more like a charm, but charms already have too much good stuff 16:40:56 it doesn't look like it is to me 16:41:08 indeed, lemme check 16:41:35 would that explain why it's so much better than the arena? 16:41:37 kilobyte: it's already been established that i disagree with the current theme of the split, because it isn't at all flavorful yet also is not actually balanced 16:41:45 Mu_: partial resists imo 16:41:50 will do so much to fix hexes 16:43:21 -!- evilmike has joined ##crawl-dev 16:43:24 Eronarn: there is no need to mention those well-established disagreements all the time 16:43:36 we're aware of them (at least I am, e.g. regarding Ash) 16:43:37 dpeg: the ench split is still a disaster, so sure there is 16:43:56 I don't think you got what I meant. 16:44:15 Eronarn: well, but have you proposed _anything_ that would improve it? 16:45:25 there are two well-themed ones, so we picked one that is better from balance's point of view 16:45:36 noooo 16:45:39 good-vs-bad would be even more biased towards charms 16:45:39 please leave that can closed 16:45:48 let's just nerf the dancing weapons 16:45:50 ok, I'll shut up 16:46:16 sorry, I started with heated insults rather than cool arguments, my bad 16:47:27 dpeg: making the AC range from, say, 6 (GSC and other wood weapons) to 15 (randarts) is probably a good first step 16:47:40 s/AC/speed/ ? 16:47:52 no, i meant AC there 16:47:52 Elliptic: good catch about tukima's spell power. It's hard-coded at 180 in _place_monster_aux() 16:47:56 -!- Keskitalo has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:48:00 -!- Keskitalo has joined ##crawl-dev 16:48:00 the problem with arena is: all dancing weapons get a random weapon which is then replaced with something else. Some code paths call init_dancing_weapon() later, some don't. 16:48:01 galehar: yep, just found that 16:48:12 the current AC values are kind of ridiculous 16:48:16 so maybe tukima is just bugged 16:48:25 galehar: and then hard-coded to 150 again :p 16:48:26 and if this is fixed, it will be okay (maybe) 16:48:57 well it did seem kind of strange how powerful my dancing GSC's were at low spellpower 16:49:09 the HP values are pretty wacky also 16:49:09 hardly any player can get 150 power 16:49:20 well, the comments say that speed ranges, and at low power is less than 10... but this doesn't seem to work 16:49:27 a range from 10 to 50 sounds much better than 4 to 70 16:49:29 so it's a bug, because design was meant differently 16:49:45 does this mean dancing small weapons should be even worse, because anything less than a big two handed weapon felt quite pathetic :P 16:49:59 and again, on speed, that is a ridiculous range - 10 to 23? why? 16:50:07 let's fix the bug first, then will see if it needs to be rebalance 16:50:20 yes 16:50:23 yeah, make it depend on spell power... that will be a huge nerf right there 16:50:24 to galehar 16:50:37 oki :) 16:50:45 * dpeg likes how some people have a very reliable common sense :) 16:51:06 elliptic: what do you mean by "all"? 16:51:23 Mu_: I'm not that happy about how dancing small weapons are so weak either 16:51:48 dpeg: uh, I can't figure out where I used that word? 16:51:48 elliptic: making AC and HP have much smaller ranges would do a lot to fix that 16:51:50 elliptic: +1 16:52:13 a commit! \o/ 16:52:16 @??iron troll 16:52:17 iron troll (10T) | Speed: 7 | HD: 16 | Health: 62-107 | AC/EV: 20/4 | Damage: 35, 25, 25 | Flags: regen | Res: 06magic(106), 05fire, 02cold | Chunks: clean/none/unknown | XP: 827. 16:52:17 elliptic: oh my :) I should go to bed. 16:52:22 @??dispater 16:52:22 Napkin: <3 16:52:22 Dispater (06&) | Speed: 10 | HD: 16 | Health: 450 | AC/EV: 40/3 | Damage: 50 | Flags: 05demonic, see invisible, !sil | Res: 06magic(213), 05hellfire, 02cold, 10elec++, 03poison, 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 13932 | Sp: greater demon, iron shot (3d29), demon, b.lightning (3d21), hellfire (3d20). 16:52:34 @??boulder beetle 16:52:34 boulder beetle (15B) | Speed: 3 | HD: 9 | Health: 34-65 | AC/EV: 20/2 | Damage: 45 | Res: 06magic(36) | Vul: 09poison | Chunks: 09poisonous | XP: 62. 16:53:02 seems pretty goofy to me that a giant piece of wood has AC closer to Dispater than to a boulder beetle 16:53:12 awesome, it works - 2 "mirror" remotes: fetching from gitorious, pushing to cdo 16:53:34 tomorrow i'll check with due how to add the hooks in gitolite 16:53:38 g'night o/ 16:53:44 should give spines to giant spiked club / spiked flail :P 16:53:45 Eronarn: "realism" 16:53:58 Mu_: should give spines to spiny frogs first :) 16:54:05 of course ;) 16:54:16 and porcupines 16:54:17 dpeg :) 16:54:26 dpeg: a realism thing with gameplay implications 16:54:50 Eronarn: of course, but if better gameplay is obtained with a certain set of AC/EV values, we won't look back 16:55:12 I was surprised I didn't hurt myself attacking porcupines. 16:55:20 ZChris13: a missing feature, will come 16:55:27 Cool! 16:55:30 i don't think there's any way to have a spell summon two things, one with 7x the AC and HP of the other, and not have the other thing be leagues better 16:55:56 ideally even if GSCs are better overall, you should at least be able to think of a reason you might want to tukima up daggers 16:56:08 weight is a reason 16:56:15 GSC should be much slower 16:56:16 I do think that the light tukimas could use a mild buff though 16:56:33 great ev i guess 16:56:39 yes, and that 16:56:42 ?? gsc 16:56:42 giant spiked club[1/2]: It looks *really* painful. Damage rating: 22 Accuracy rating: -7 Base attack delay: 180, (pierce) damage, never generated with an enchantment. Cannot be wielded except by trolls, hill giants, and ogres. 16:57:28 that's not what you guys are talking about.. is it? 16:57:45 Napkin: dancing weapons via Tukima spell 16:57:47 elliptic: i don't think anyone is going to use tukima with daggers just because they weigh less :P 16:57:59 Eronarn: it used to be the case 16:58:02 eronarn: not now, sure, but people did with old tukima 16:58:12 right, but those had very different stats 16:58:18 i'm talking with the stats of the current ones 16:58:35 where a dagger has less HP than, say, a grey rat 16:58:41 @??grey rat 16:58:41 grey rat (15r) | Speed: 12 | HD: 1 | Health: 3-9 | AC/EV: 2/12 | Damage: 5 | Res: 06magic(4) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 4. 16:58:49 same AC too 16:58:54 -!- eith has quit [Quit: sleep] 16:59:06 btw, it is also an option to make certain parameters constant (a function of the weapon, but not a function of power), for example... HP 16:59:20 dpeg: i think just constraining the range a lot more would do it 16:59:30 HP was constant with old tukima, I think 16:59:38 say, HP = 20 for a dagger, 50 with a GSC 16:59:39 maybe other features too 16:59:46 elliptic: speed too 16:59:52 remember, you aren't destroying the weapon when you kill it, you just do enough damage to make it stop dancing 17:00:22 currently HP is proportional to mass; I'd make it proportional to mass+C for some constant C 17:01:01 elliptic: i'd do that, and for AC just make it defined by the weapon's type rather than mass 17:01:13 Here's an idea players will hate: every use of TD on a weapon reduces an enchantment (or has a chance to do so) 17:01:15 because both HP and AC by mass gives dumb results 17:01:50 dpeg: that sounds like a huge annoyance moreso than anything else 17:01:50 This makes the weapon much more like resources, 17:02:07 pick up your new batch of weapons after each branch or whatever 17:02:15 it's pretty trivial to come up with loads of weapons 17:03:37 AI keeps Crazy Yiuf trapped in lair behind dart trap (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3448) by XuaXua 17:05:06 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: sleep] 17:13:40 Stabbing is opening skeletons like pillowcases (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3449) by XuaXua 17:15:03 heh, I wonder what that person would think of opening an insubstantial wisp like a pillowcase 17:18:57 hi 17:22:41 -!- ortoslon has joined ##crawl-dev 17:23:48 kilobyte: d'you think the approach you mentioned earlier is feasible? don't want to implement more stuff that assumes that they're monsters, unless i know that it'll work to do so at some point 17:40:04 03galehar 07master * r65e521efc5bf 10/: Fix Tukima's Dance ignoring spell power. 17:44:19 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 17:46:17 -!- paxed has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:47:42 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 17:47:42 -!- paxed has quit [Changing host] 17:47:42 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 18:05:07 03galehar 07master * rc522b51ebf33 10/: Add paralysis status to the death message. 18:05:08 03galehar 07master * rda5a049d0a30 10/: Add a note when paralysed by a monster. 18:05:10 03galehar 07master * r213ed8875358 10/: Paralysis beam calls you.paralyse() instead of potion_effect. 18:16:30 -!- ortoslon has quit [Quit: bye] 18:22:18 -!- galehar has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Iceape 2.0.11/20101227155314]] 18:58:05 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:00:29 ech... i can see how this suggestion would work, but i think implementing it is going to be tricky 19:00:38 which suggestion? 19:01:37 due: i am doing swarms; the way I had wanted to do them would have each swarm with a pointer to a monster that existed and had persistent stats but didn't interact with anything except through swarm code 19:02:11 er no 19:02:28 storing pointers in cloud structs like that is just asking for pain 19:02:44 instead create the monster and store it off-level or off-grid somehow -- find a way of making it be on the level but not visible 19:02:53 then store the serial number for that monster in the cloud struct. 19:03:21 that's what I'm trying to do; it doesn't matter to me whether it's a pointer or mindex() 19:03:38 the problem isn't actually with the pointer thus far, but making it exist "nowhere" 19:04:03 yeah. 19:04:34 Okay, well, the easiest way to do that is to add a "nowhere_monsters" member to env. That takes them off the mgrid and therefore out of the scope of the game -- you don't need to worry about stuff iterating over mgrid. 19:04:40 Then you need to write code to marshall and unmarshall these monsters. 19:05:02 Having it outside of mgrd, in theory, means that all of the interaction code, AI, etc, will never get triggered. 19:05:20 hmm, would it be safe to largely replicate the mgrid code? "mgrid2", more or less? 19:05:29 Safe, yes 19:05:33 But do not call it mgrid2 19:05:46 And you don't need the grid to be the size of the level, either. 19:05:48 no, of course not, i'll call it... number!!1 19:06:08 Actually, you could just make the bounds of mgrd MAX_CLOUDS, I suppose. 19:06:12 One monster per cloud. 19:06:26 Also, mindex and so-on won't work; instead you need to store the index into the nowhere_monsters grid. 19:06:31 nwmgrid :) 19:06:53 It doesn't even need to be a grid, for that matter. A single-dimension info would be enough, in theory. 19:06:59 FixedArray< unsigned short, MAX_CLOUDS, 1> ? for a #ofclouds x 1 grid? 19:07:03 or can i omit the 1 19:07:31 That makes an array of MAX_CLOUD shorts whose initial value is 1. 19:07:41 But yes, I am confusing issues. 19:07:46 Look at menv instead. 19:07:59 mgrd is a WIDTH*HEIGHT grid containining indexes into menv. 19:08:01 Or vice versa. 19:08:26 oh, so map <-> mgrid <-> menv? 19:09:29 I don't have the code next to me and I haven't touched it in a while 19:09:44 But most of the "grids" are just a layer of numeric indices into flat structures. 19:10:06 i see how it works now, i'm pretty sure, i think i've actually used both before but i'm not used enough to the code to know how everything fits together 19:10:18 trap_grid is a "layer" on top of the map that points into a flat array of traps and shops 19:10:28 likewise the cloud grid into a flat array of shop structs 19:10:28 etc 19:10:49 you won't even need a layer grid, just the flat array of monsters that are "nowhere" on the level. 19:11:04 you may want to update the serial finding functions to look in the nowhere array, too. 19:12:12 so this is what i have, then - 19:12:14 FixedVector< monster, MAX_MONSTERS+1 > mons; // monster list, plus anon 19:12:17 FixedVector< monster, MAX_CLOUDS+1 > mons_nowhere; // monsters in limbo 19:13:32 yup 19:13:46 MAX_CLOUDS+1 may be too many. 19:13:54 The only problem with thais that I can think of 19:14:03 is that we are adding "more" monsters on top of MAX_MONSTERS into the game. 19:14:12 so just keep that in mind if you run into any issues. 19:19:21 yeah, hopefully this won't be a problem since they are intended to be very shortlived 19:19:34 is MAX_MONSTERS just there for performance reasons? 19:20:32 basically, yes. 19:20:40 Note that it's MAX_MONSTERS per level, though. 19:29:34 You are engulfed in a swarm of bees. 19:29:34 The swamp drake breathes noxious fumes at you. 19:29:34 The noxious blast hits you! 19:29:34 _I AM COVERED IN The killer bee x10 19:29:37 yaaay, it's working 19:30:41 Just remember that you're going to have to add a huge shim for savefile compat :) 19:31:08 probably better to leave that to someone who knows what they're doing 19:32:03 Well, you add a save mons_nowhere to tags.cc; then you bump minor version, and for everything equal to or greater than that minor version, you load the mons_nowhere grid; otherwise you fill it with default values (if you even need to). 19:40:25 i am kind of shocked at how well that worked :) 19:40:35 definitely wouldn't have thought of doing that 19:41:38 i have my moments of clarity :) 19:41:50 and then i have others where i do somethign extremely complicated and someone turns around and goes "er, why aren't you doing ?" 19:43:07 where should i be looking to replicate the marshall/unmarshall code? because i think that's the only thing i have left to do for swarms that is swarm-specific... the rest of it is just stuff like adding their monster entries, figuring out their damage, how their spread AI works, etc. 19:44:03 tags.cc 19:44:09 look at where it iterates over mgrd 19:44:20 it probably does for i = i; i < MAX_MONSTERS+1 19:47:09 ah, i see... is it safe to run that, and then run what amounts to a copy of that afterwards? or should i e.g. be summing together menv + mons_nowhere to figure out how many bytes first, and then iterating through each separately afterwarsd 19:53:31 oh, i see how the marshalling stuff works... that's not as bad as i expected, though annoying, i guess 19:54:49 no 19:54:51 that is unsafe :) 19:55:01 you need to run that 19:55:09 and then a separate block to unmarshall the monsters in nowhere after it 19:55:44 that's actually easier, so i'm fine with that :) 19:58:12 :) 19:58:19 Just remember that the order of marshalling is the same as unmarshalling. 19:58:35 ie, if your nowhere monsters comes after current mgrd to marshall, it comes after mgrd to unmarshall. 19:58:43 that seems rather obvious though 20:07:01 -!- Mu_ has quit [Quit: Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place.] 20:20:02 tags.cc:2081: error: ‘mrashallInt’ was not declared in this scope 20:20:05 oops. 20:22:04 "oops". 20:23:01 i think all i need now is a way to load a monster* by mid, does that exist somewhere? 20:30:46 yes 20:30:48 check actor.h 20:30:53 it has a find_actor_by_mid 20:31:00 however, you will need to extend that function to check the nowhere_monsters grid. 20:31:29 you might also want to do a create_nowhere_monster function that wraps the curret set of functions, but doesn't store the monster in the mgrd/menv 20:33:42 hm, can't find anything with a name close to that in actor.h or actor.cc 20:34:26 run make doxy-simple and open the html/index.html file and use the javascript search 20:34:29 it's pretty good 20:34:36 also, i'm using define_monster atm... it seems to create the monsters appropriately, without sticking them anywhere 20:34:45 though i mgiht be misusing it 20:39:37 you are... not necessarily misusing it 20:39:44 it is probably best to avoid create_monster, etc 20:39:56 however keep in mind that create_monster and place_monster are the main entrypoints for monster creation 20:39:59 and they do stuff that define_monster does not 20:40:06 so you may run into issues ont hat front 20:40:34 yeah... though i plan to keep swarms pretty simple, so they won't need as much stuff like bands or religion that's set there 20:41:20 put notices all over the palce that this is intentional :) 20:41:53 ah hah 20:42:00 the function is monster_by_mid 20:42:14 i have no idea where it's defined, i found it by remembering that's how shedu worked 20:42:51 grep monster_by_mid *.h 20:43:00 that'll tell you the header 20:43:08 then you can grep for that definition through .cc and find the file it's in 20:43:16 yeah, i make *heavy* use of grep to find stuff :) it's how i get anything done 20:49:28 -!- Moriasc has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:56:50 -!- jld has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:57:06 -!- jld has joined ##crawl-dev 21:09:37 yay, it is working well now... at least, since i remembered that swarm->mindex() and swarm->mid are totally different things! 22:07:01 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:11:46 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 22:31:26 -!- ZChris13 has quit [Quit: Page closed] 22:39:25 should the unique monster identifiers be used to clear shadows once they die? 22:39:25 Eronarn: Seriously I am not kidding, that is perfect flavour for lurking horrors. 22:39:36 it's good interface but also an information leak 22:39:57 TGWi: "shadows once they die"? 22:40:35 the copies of the monster glyph out of los to record sightings 22:40:39 due: i'm thinking that they could exist in mons_nowhere, because they can still have pos there, but can be walked through. and they can still be moved, too, if you use moveto rather than move_to_pos 22:40:59 Yes, interesting. 22:42:01 (also, now that I have this CoC d20 book open... hunting horrors! <3) 22:51:32 blah, i wish there were scans of the art in this book online 22:51:37 a lot of it is *very* good 23:00:16 hm... I think I'll do them as a mixture of hounds of tindalos and hunting horrors 23:00:38 they appear from a corner in the form of smoke :D 23:17:26 -!- Keskitalo has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:17:43 -!- Keskitalo has joined ##crawl-dev 23:25:49 Autoinscriptions can mess up cTele triggers. (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3450) by elliptic 23:26:16 Really? 23:26:25 That's pretty cool. 23:27:56 props for including sample inscription 23:29:00 That sounds like an issue in the trigger. 23:29:11 Probably a regression caused by my changes to the item handling table. 23:29:18 * due quick source dive! 23:30:54 Yeah. 23:31:04 The code is "if it.name() == self.target then". 23:31:11 Whereas it should be it.name_without_autoinscribe_etc(). 23:32:38 Alternately it just needs to use the correct description_type. 23:55:41 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 23:55:50 -!- Cryp71c has left ##crawl-dev 23:58:19 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev