00:03:54 -!- ZChris13 has quit [Quit: Page closed] 00:12:56 "Ashenzari helps you learn" # Not clear at all! 00:13:03 Ash needs more text 00:14:25 00:16:26 was that triggered by asking for ashenzari help? 00:17:19 00:17:39 -!- Kurper has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:36:52 bad god 00:48:41 I was expecting "ashenzari has no interaction" 00:48:57 from you 00:49:24 TGWi: this message is apparently too subtle 01:20:12 -!- valrus_ has joined ##crawl-dev 01:57:53 elliptic: thanks for the comment on sleepy; I haven't had a chance to look at it yet 01:57:59 due: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them. 01:58:45 !messages 01:58:45 (1/2) dpeg said (7h 8m 25s ago): Mu proposed Regeneration spell to be Nec/Tmut. I like it, what do you think? (Master of Tmuts :) 01:58:49 !messages 01:58:49 (1/1) effo said (3h 20m 17s ago): hey try loading up this bad boy and drawing from my Deck of Escape until it's empty http://crawl.develz.org/saves/dumps/effo-9e49f6b-110201-0437.tar.bz2 01:58:55 !tell dpeg Yes, I have been behind this for a while. 01:58:56 due: OK, I'll let dpeg know. 02:07:33 -!- MaryPoppins is now known as Adeon 02:25:42 elliptic: was it you what reported the issue with banished weapons? 02:25:51 no it was me 02:25:57 oh good! 02:25:58 hii! 02:26:00 working on it now. 02:27:06 just hacking in some code to call banish withotu having to do weird things with distortion wepaons 02:28:09 are there any other things that can cause irresistable banishment for monsters? 02:30:11 due: did you see that the problem with sticks to snakes producing corpses is still around? 02:31:05 really? 02:31:17 how recent? 02:32:01 I checked on CDO earlier tonight 02:32:15 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 02:32:21 hm, bugger 02:32:28 okay, i'll ad a monster kill wizcommand as well, thanks 02:33:01 hi 02:33:05 hi galehar 02:33:11 galehar: you'er right re: Dig and Liquefaction 02:33:26 I've seen your mail 02:33:32 good 02:34:27 Okay, wizmode commands for kill and banish coded, now for a full recompile :( 02:49:00 shopping.o! hooray! 03:13:54 there already is a wizmode banish command isn't there? &G or something? 03:14:11 yes, there is 03:14:41 but because of "<+due> okay, i'll ad a monster kill wizcommand as well, thanks" I guess this is for monsters 03:14:51 and i know there is 'bring monster down to 1hp' on x, because i sometimes typo and hit myself with it by accident 03:15:11 &G is for dismissing monsters by regex, not banishing them 03:15:32 at a glance, it looks like the only banishment is self-banishment/unbanishment 03:15:34 yes, I intentionally made ',' work on the player too 03:15:35 (&B) 03:15:48 monqy: exactly 03:16:25 but then, I never had any problems testing banishment and death effects -- ',' and one whack, or the spell/distortion 03:16:46 oh right, i read 'monster kill wizcommand' as wizmode command to kill monsters, not wizmode command for monsters to kill 03:16:52 or something 03:17:28 natural language is a poor serialisation format :( 03:20:45 it was a real pain to reproduce the dancing weapon banishment deal because distortion teleported and killed them so much :( 03:21:12 in retrospect, I guess I could have spammed severity 3 summ miscasts on it 03:21:34 there is a concern with adding tons of wizmode commands: 1. there's few letters left to assign commands, 2. the help screen is bloated 03:22:03 monqy: right, they are immune to magic 03:22:48 also, the wizmode commands do shown in regular help, at least during targetting 03:23:09 but if I fix this right now, it will be a guaranteed conflict with due's change 03:24:23 real games compiled with #define WIZMODE do leak some minor information and have such spammy help 03:28:59 well the proliferation of wizmode commands could be solved with something like a prefix map. 03:29:13 i mean you'd press & and then two keys to reach the function you want to run. 03:31:33 but i guess spending time on the wizmode interface is low priority compared to the real game ;) 03:33:29 -!- evilmike has quit [] 03:37:13 good idea, and indeed 03:38:51 03due * r42fb131fc920 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-stuff.cc: Fix #3355: banished dancing weapons are properly banished. 03:38:57 03due * rd44bad3c5a9a 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-stuff.cc: Fix #3364: sticks to snake snakes no longer leave corpses. 03:38:57 03due * r19d24356febc 10/crawl-ref/source/ (cmd-keys.h command.cc directn.cc enum.h): Wizard commands for: banish or kill a monster. 03:40:05 03kilobyte * r52784f33d9f0 10/crawl-ref/source/ (dungeon.cc effects.cc mon-movetarget.cc): Fix some #ifdef WIZARD but not wizmode information leaks. 03:40:17 03kilobyte * re2f96321f9da 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/variable/float.des: Add a comment stating the additional ancient champions KMONS definition is not used. 03:45:17 errm.. 03:45:49 kilobyte, those checks are useless.. 03:46:10 kilobyte, FPROP_HIGHLIGHT only has any noticeable effect when you.wizard is true, as per code in viewmap.cc 03:47:28 Zaba: ooh, I didn't know 03:48:41 it might be a minor speedup, but only if the variable reference is in fast memory 03:49:47 due: uhm, did you compile and test the banished weapon change? 03:49:52 it clutters the code needlessly :P 03:50:21 I was about to comment on that as well 03:50:22 yes 03:50:39 did i break something? 03:50:43 mon-stuff.cc: In function ‘int monster_die(monster*, killer_type, int, bool, bool, bool)’: 03:50:47 mon-stuff.cc:1747: error: ‘summoned_id’ was not declared in this scope 03:50:49 mon-stuff.cc:1757: error: ‘summoned_id’ was not declared in this scope 03:50:51 mon-stuff.cc:1743: warning: unused variable ‘summoned_it’ 03:50:52 ... wtf 03:50:53 it's defined as summoned_it 03:51:01 huh 03:51:09 i must've only partially committed it 03:51:40 Sorry bout that, i went back and altered the commit because it was shadowing a variable 03:52:01 just pushing, give me a moment to check this other commit first 03:52:49 03due * rcbeaeb24121a 10/crawl-ref/source/ (dat/descript/spells.txt spl-data.h): Partially revert "Shatter, Dig, Lee's and Maxwell's lose their Transmutiveness." 03:52:50 03due * rabd58db8e7b5 10/crawl-ref/source/ (dat/descript/spells.txt spl-data.h): Leda's Liquefaction gains Tmut; loses two levels. 03:52:52 03due * r4b4ed7869c35 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-stuff.cc: Fix compilation. 03:53:05 Sorry 'bout that! 03:53:40 it's strange to have digging be a transmutation 03:53:59 liquefaction at L4 sounds fun 03:54:16 someone might actually use it now 03:55:26 fun spells that are useless due to other factors are not that fun 03:55:55 elliptic: yes that's what i thought 04:02:52 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 04:03:26 see also passage of golubria 04:04:39 that might be cool at level 3, or if it worked on ctele floors, or somthing 04:06:48 yeah 04:07:50 one should err on the side of making fun new spells like these low-level rather than high-level, I think 04:15:27 -!- monqy has quit [Quit: hello] 04:16:40 03kilobyte * rfb6c17e21f00 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-stuff.cc: Make it possible (although, sadly, very unlikely) to find banished randarts. 04:17:11 also could someone be really awesome and update cdo so i can play with new shatter and liquefaction and stuff on my deee? :P 04:17:46 m'kay 04:20:23 due: what I just did enables banished randarts to be generated again, but only the normal way, and only in the Abyss so it's basically meaningless 04:20:56 do you think we should have the chances more in line with finding unique monsters? 04:22:30 Unstable branch on CDO updated to: 0.8.0-a0-4953-gfb6c17e (32) 04:22:49 thanks :D 04:27:14 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:35:50 kilobyte: hm 04:35:55 kilobyte: i like that idea 04:35:59 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 04:36:05 specifically unrands should be generated though, i guess. 04:36:49 -!- ortoslon1 has joined ##crawl-dev 04:36:49 -!- ortoslon has quit [Disconnected by services] 04:36:49 -!- ortoslon1 is now known as ortoslon 04:38:19 whee more controversial spell changes coming up! 04:39:47 there's a controversial spell idea: 04:40:28 "Darkness", Hex 7. Decreases LOS range by up to 2. 04:40:44 Do it! 04:40:58 kilobyte: what about the abuses with conjurations? 04:40:59 "Ugly", Hex 9, convert to squarelos. :p 04:41:27 elliptic: need to be fixed, of course 04:42:04 also, nightstalker is additive to the lantern of shadows, this produces nasty results. Should be multiplicative IMO. 04:44:41 okay 04:44:46 http://sprunge.us/TFPP 04:44:51 thoughts? 04:45:26 No changes to the spell, just to its flavour. 04:46:13 elliptic: any abuse that such spell would allow can already be done with nightstalker 04:46:21 this is true 04:46:35 Can we call it "Fog of War"? 04:46:57 due: sure. It would definitely answer the question "what about Evaporate for felids", though. 04:47:00 but I've been telling people about nightstalker abuses for a version or two already without anything happening :) 04:47:15 due: <3 04:47:31 kilobyte: Well, the previous description said "must be thrown blah blah". 04:47:50 I can change it to "the potion is then launched as a projectile" or osmething if we want felids to have it? 04:47:56 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 04:48:28 Eh, will stick with thrown now. 04:48:39 Launch kind of goes "but why can't I portal projectile evaporate?" 04:50:08 Mu_: I'm about to push regen change :D 04:50:15 cool 04:50:36 portal projectile doesn't work, since you actually throw the thing 04:50:36 I think we should have a quick blurb of "what this school is" and "what this school is not" 04:50:48 that would get very bikesheddy though. 04:50:58 you need to, since otherwise we would have problems explaining why you need a bow to launch arrows 04:51:02 yeah 04:51:19 to be honest felids should probablynot be able to evap 04:51:24 unles they throw things clumsily with their taails 04:51:28 in which case... 04:51:54 +1 for tailthrowing 04:53:34 there are two possible solutions: 1. range 1 (so you'd better be rPois or suck it up), 2. an outright ban 04:56:32 I'd prefer 1 with tailthrowing as the explanation. 04:56:40 And thus allow them to tailthrow things short distances (suc as books) 04:56:50 but not darts, etc, as their tails are not as prehensile 04:56:54 ??hex 04:56:54 I don't have a page labeled hex in my learndb. 04:56:55 ??hexes 04:56:56 hexes[1/1]: Probably don't need to train this. At all. Unless you're an En. Not even then. Unless you want to stab stuff. 04:57:19 What is the specific flavour of Hexes versus Charms? 04:57:39 Hexes are things that could be considered a malus or a negative effect, whereas Charms are construed as having a positive effect? 04:57:40 hexes affect things, charms affect you 04:57:55 things/monsters 04:58:21 it's not positive/negative anymore since the branding spells are hexes 04:59:50 ??haste 04:59:58 haste[1/2]: Halves delay of all actions. Yes, it stacks with Swiftness, boots of running, weapons of speed, etc.. Level 6 Ench spell, Okawaru invocation, wand of hasting, or the effect of a potion of speed. Also one of the effects of berserking. Being hasted raises your hunger rate by 5. Considered by many to be the best spell in the game. 05:00:12 and haste gets to be a charm even though you can cast it on others 05:00:22 from Wikipedia: "A hex is a magical spell, usually with malevolent purposes such as a curse. The term is derived from the German word Hexe for a witch." 05:00:48 if we forbid felids from using evaporate, we should also do the same for all the forms that cannot throw 05:00:52 or reduce range to 1 05:01:13 "charm" is a synonym either for a spell or an amulet 05:01:29 https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:magic:evaporate 05:01:39 spiderform could use the nerf of having felid restrictions on item use 05:01:44 why? felids can't use wands in forms that can 05:02:06 so having Charms being spells that do roughly what amulets can do is good 05:02:34 MarvinPA: statue form doesn't change your shape -- you're still a naga/centaur/troll statue 05:02:54 or lich form: you're a skeletal kitteh 05:02:54 ice/spider form do and you can still use wands etc 05:03:55 does ice form actually change your shape, or just make you icy? 05:03:58 the description says you're turned into an ice beast rather an human icy statue 05:04:30 the question is, what an ice beast is? 05:04:56 @??ice beast 05:04:57 ice beast (16I) | Speed: 10 (swim: 110%) | HD: 5 | Health: 17-39 | AC/EV: 5/10 | Damage: 512(cold:5-14) | Flags: amphibious | Res: 06magic(20), 12cold+++, 03poison, asphyx, 12drown | Vul: 04fire | XP: 130. 05:06:14 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:06:20 the tile shows a quadruped 05:10:53 700 word treatise! 05:11:20 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 05:20:25 ??ely 05:20:26 elyvilon[1/4]: The divinity of healing. Most reliable source of protection from being killed while praying, but will impose penance (i.e. not answer your requests for help) if you kill living creatures while praying. Provides healing invocations, but dislikes cannibalism, the use of necromancy, and allowing allies to die. 05:21:13 -!- Napkin has joined ##crawl-dev 05:21:28 Hi 05:21:36 hi Napkin! 05:21:48 i had a qeustion for you but i forgot it :9 05:21:55 my memory is terrible :( 05:22:42 i need to create more free disk space on CDO 05:22:54 :(! 05:23:13 looking at the morgues 05:23:18 only .txt are the interesting ones, right? 05:23:28 neither map nor lst nor ts are needed? 05:23:43 basically yes 05:23:46 I believe so 05:23:51 greensnark would know better 05:24:01 yeah, but he's still hiding 05:24:21 some people look at the .lst, but I doubt anyone does later than a week after the game 05:24:23 what was the timestamp file ts used for again? 05:25:18 1081 words :( 05:25:19 and I'm not finished 05:25:21 what is wrooong with me 05:25:32 too little coffee! 05:25:33 no idea, but ttyrecs do stamp every single frame -- some programs produce absolute, some relative stamps, but even for relative, you can offset them to the time encoded in the filename 05:25:37 !coffee due 05:25:38 * Henzell hands due a pot of black coffee, brewed by the Serpent of Hell. 05:25:41 what you writin 05:25:59 a treatise on spell schools 05:26:03 basically an inclusion policy. 05:26:07 oy vey 05:26:08 it's bikesheddy as all hell 05:26:24 but I'm trying to limit it to specifically those things that I believe are fundamental to crawl and agreed upon by all 05:26:37 we can argue about it after I commit it ;) 05:28:31 we are good at arguing (even if not as good as bringing arguments that make sense) 05:29:28 well, I think my treatise is well-rounded for each school 05:29:45 but there's a lot of back-and-forth about "oh but it should be this because of X" and "no but what about Y"? 05:29:56 so if we can have something tha twe generally agree on we can refer to it and people to it 05:30:06 and if it doesn't cover something or we feel it needs to change, we can alter it to suit.. 05:30:44 due i think sublimation of blood should be nec/tmut, where does your document place it so far 05:31:26 Necromancy/Tmut, basically. 05:31:37 you don't change the blood to something else, you merely extract something that is not physical 05:31:41 how is it tmut? 05:31:44 yeah, that 05:31:51 chunks 05:32:03 imo tmut extends to all chemistry 05:32:15 I've defined transmutation as the conversion of one thing to another. 05:32:17 right, and I see no chemistry here 05:32:30 Converting chunks -> HP = transmutation. 05:32:51 Er, MP, rather. 05:32:52 changing blood to water, to rock or to alcohol would be Tmut 05:32:56 Or whatever. 05:33:04 draining life force from it is pure Nec 05:33:04 I'm tired and it's late. 05:36:21 What's the flavour of sublimation anyway? I hardly useit 05:36:21 It says "converts". 05:36:21 This spell converts flesh, blood and other bodily fluids into magical energy. 05:36:21 Casters may focus this spell on their own bodies (which can be dangerous but 05:36:21 never directly lethal) or can wield freshly butchered flesh in order to draw 05:36:21 power into themselves. 05:36:21 Well, it shoudl either be reflavoured to "This spell driains the energy from flesh, blood, and other bodily fluids" 05:36:21 or become Tmut. Two options! 05:36:21 if magical energy was like a syrup that you drink then sure, it'd be tmut 05:36:21 it's kind of like vampiric draining yourself, I guess? 05:36:21 there is some precedent now for spells that manipulate flesh and blood falling into nec/tmut crossover 05:36:21 kind of, yeah 05:36:21 animate skeleton which strips flesh off is pure nec 05:36:44 you don't do anything with it 05:36:45 Mu_: is there any? 05:36:58 there will be shortly 05:37:34 there are three Nec/Tmut spells: distillation which is basically pure tmut, and two spells that change the entire form of a creature (Cigoruvi's Degeneration and Necromutation) 05:37:44 Regen :) 05:37:49 er?!? 05:37:55 Is becoming Necro/Tmut. 05:38:02 that's the worst idea since squarelos 05:38:07 I haven't pushed it yet but I was discussing it with David earlier. 05:38:08 how do you exactly explain that? 05:38:10 oh wtf i thought twisted res was tmut/nec also 05:38:19 did it used to be?? 05:38:29 it transmutes your wounds into not-wounds 05:39:00 but yeah by this logic basically anything could be tmut 05:39:08 It reanimates your wounds and transmutes dead flesh. 05:39:16 Transmutations deal with changing shapes. It is possible to become a powerful dragon, for example. 05:39:18 Iron Shot transmutes a live monster into strips of flesh 05:39:20 MarvinPA: well, yeah. 05:39:25 healing wounds: not really changing shapes 05:39:39 Well, I'm trying to get Tmut away from "omg forms". 05:39:41 so what neither is ignite poison 05:40:09 regen affects your biology, what other school fits better 05:40:25 so does haste, should that be tmut? 05:40:40 it transmutes your metabolism to go faster 05:41:12 Regen being Necro/Tmut just feels right to me. 05:41:35 it should be conjuration: creates scar tiscue from nothing 05:41:56 So your point is that the link is tenuous and could be construed from basically anything? 05:41:56 haste is magical speed (??) 05:41:59 i'm not entirely opposed to it but it seems like school definitions are getting more and more vague instead of better-defined over time 05:42:01 Sure. 05:42:07 it doesn't affect your muscles to make them move faster 05:44:12 i'm goin gto push the change anyway 05:44:57 what about crusaders, also 05:44:59 I'd discuss it first, because of sense: it makes none. 05:45:08 argh 05:45:09 although it seems like consistency in starting books is going out of the window anyway 05:45:28 crusaders are broken ATM, yeah 05:45:33 kilobyte: I'm sure someone said that about changing branding spells to hexes. 05:45:49 MarvinPA: there's no point trying to "fix" the books at the minute until we agree upon the spell school changes. 05:46:20 due: about books, true 05:46:43 Because using our current mechanism having branding spells as hexes makes no sense. 05:46:56 Not that I am attempting to go "well you made no sense here so that means I get to make no sense and you don't get to complain" 05:47:26 as I already said, if we were to freeze tomorrow I'd revert the ench split 05:47:36 too bad we don't have any better proposals 05:47:38 but we're not freezing tomorrow. 05:47:51 okay, not ogin gto push the regen change 05:48:08 just worse ones (Eronarn's which is basically "flip a coin for every spell") 05:48:39 03due * rdf379fb7e58d 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/descript/spells.txt: Reflavour Evaporation description. 05:48:42 meh 05:48:43 03due * rf209e5ab30d5 10/crawl-ref/docs/develop/spells.txt: A short treatise on spell schools. 05:48:44 03due * rcf77e6d5ea90 10/crawl-ref/source/spl-data.h: Transmutation change: Sandblast -> Earth. 05:49:07 i still think regen being necro/tmut is perfectly reasonable and no more a stretch than any other thin 05:49:10 but i do not care enough :) 05:49:14 i care more about sleep now, ciao! 05:49:20 sleep well! 05:49:39 g'night o/ 05:50:22 comments on the spell school treatise greatly appreciated 05:50:36 * due gone 05:50:49 i don't think conj creates the cloud, i think air ruffles up a cloud and conj makes the poison 05:50:49 :P 05:51:17 * due thwaps Mu_ 05:51:20 * due gone for real :p 05:51:35 freezing cloud doesn't need the conj imo :o 05:51:41 later duey ;p 05:52:39 shadow creatures doesn't really transport something 05:52:56 it weaves a creature from abyssal matter, maybe it should be tmut :P 05:53:06 it summons strands of abyssal matter :p 05:55:34 "Necromancy is primarily the act of talking to the dead for divinatory purposes." seems a bit misleading, in crawl it's just about manipulating lifeforce and stuff 05:55:40 i guess that's specified afterwards though 05:59:52 i don't think any set of schools is gonna be 100% consistent unless you have about 9000 different schools 06:10:39 http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Necromancer 06:14:29 -!- Gnash has joined ##crawl-dev 06:16:46 hmm... enforced save-game transfer gave 3.6gb more free space 06:21:12 just ten or so versions? 06:21:21 yeah 06:21:31 the real problem are the 68gb of ttyrecs 06:21:40 *bzipped ttyrecs 06:21:54 most of which won't ever be read again 06:22:20 exactly.. 06:22:30 any volunteer out there to host them? 06:22:46 pick half of ttyrecs randomly and remove them 06:22:51 not that anybody will notice anything :P 06:23:20 we could tell the bots/tv server to check for ttyrecs older than dayX on a voluntary archive server 06:23:37 all ttyrecs below xl 3 06:23:42 !lg Sebi src=cdo 06:23:42 74468. Sebi the Charlatan (L1 DEAr), got out of the dungeon alive. on 2011-01-28, with 20 points after 19 turns and 0:00:07. 06:23:56 it's unlikely that those take up much space, though 06:24:02 this might be mostly count rather than size 06:29:49 some a quite huge 06:30:05 but yes, mostly about amount 06:30:48 I would ask greensnark to host on his shiney hetzner server 06:31:36 i'm also thinking about moving cdo zo hetzner 06:31:53 delete all ttyrecs which are quits or escapes and xl1 06:32:52 i wouldn't know how to parse that 06:34:38 70gb isn't much.. but cdo happens to have only 500gb 06:35:24 and it would be temporary only 06:35:37 for 3 months 06:35:41 anyone? 06:42:39 -!- Gnash has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:49:53 most ttyrecs are not worth much 06:50:29 do we have some estimate how big a percentage is wasted by quits and scumming? 06:51:57 there are folks like Sebi, and not only 06:52:00 !lg . max=dur 06:52:00 6664. KiloByte the Farming Archmage (L27 SpAE), worshipper of Lugonu, escaped with the Orb and 18 runes on 2008-11-08, with 5118394 points after 262053 turns and 54:18:47. 06:52:16 er, SpAE...? That game was not scummy :p 06:52:26 !lm * xl=27 min=dur 06:53:23 83439. [2009-08-17] KiloByte the Farming Executioner (L27 MuGl) became a worshipper of Okawaru on turn 3277748. (D:10) 06:53:23 it's weird to have mummy scumming on the _short_ side 06:57:00 03kilobyte * r49b357c549b5 10/crawl-ref/docs/develop/spells.txt: Elaborate on Charms vs Hexes. 06:57:13 -!- Gnash has joined ##crawl-dev 06:59:40 well I guess you hardly had to think compared to a normal game 07:00:38 actually, I was AFK most of the time so it could be done in a fraction of that 07:01:12 there's this nice mummyscumming robin which requires people to stay on each level for 20000 turns, it's on D:5 at xl10 :) beat stuff like stone giants already 07:01:16 just 555555555555555555*k*k*k*k*k*k*k*k*k*k555555555555555555*k*k*k*k*k*k*k*k*k*k555555555555555555*k*k*k*k*k*k*k*k*k*k (*1000) bound to a key 07:01:26 oh, it probably had the realtime bug 07:01:30 set to 5 mins 07:02:12 also, what does * do? 07:02:21 attack 07:02:27 possible... although that bug might be not there yet, I don't remember those games to last long by the wall clock either 07:02:42 it's like ctrl+k 07:02:49 ah 07:02:49 same as ctrl-k except that you can't use ctrl in macros 07:03:12 i have to use *h because ctrl+h says "unknown command" 07:03:38 not sure if that's crawl or something from X 07:06:26 hmm, well that answers that question. ctrl+h works on tty1 but not in X. so it's not crawl's fault. 07:11:45 !tell due spells treatise looks good to me. thanks for writing it up! (or is it down?) i know dpeg wanted to have conj == direct damage, which'd have appeal because of drawing the line by playstyle (largely), i used to think so too but not so sure nowadays 07:11:46 Keskitalo: OK, I'll let due know. 07:14:34 "'s flesh is seared" -- not sure what to do here. 07:14:55 My dictionary specifically includes "3. pulp, flesh -- (a soft moist part of a fruit)", but that message sounds wrong to me. 07:16:16 Keskitalo: I agree about conj being direct damage too 07:16:41 even though Airstrike might be good as pure air 07:17:07 we had Tornado as pure air and had to change it for reasons not related to theme the slightest, though 07:18:02 I could imagine e.g. an ice wall spell that would be defensive, while in flavour it'd create walls of ice. But it could always transmute air to ice, or summon/translocate it from polar caps rather than conjure it from thin air. 07:18:41 Buuuut dunno if that wouldn't dilute the other schools? 07:19:21 I guess we could use some sort of "this school is designed for this sort of play" writing-down too. 07:20:03 (from that point of view, Summoning for the ice blocks might fit the best) 07:24:14 -!- Twinge has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:28:59 making a block of ice would be conj, it'd be just like conjure flame 07:31:12 -!- Twinge has joined ##crawl-dev 07:33:11 from the spell schools treatise: "we should paint the bike shed green". What does that mean? Is this some sort of cultural reference? 07:37:46 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bikeshedding 07:38:11 most flamewars are about something with no vital meaning 07:38:54 thanks 07:40:50 "The jelly's flesh is seared." 07:40:53 is that ok? 07:43:02 i'd prolly just say the jelly is seared, i guess 07:44:12 uh, a second too late 07:44:18 lemme change it 07:44:27 03kilobyte * r08a9a0163a0e 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-util.h: Remove the declaration of a non-existant function. 07:44:28 03kilobyte * r147c47ec7355 10/crawl-ref/source/ (mon-util.cc mon-util.h monster.cc): Fix "the lich's flesh is seared" (Zin's silver corona). 07:44:29 03kilobyte * r6e95a0c6eea0 10/crawl-ref/source/godabil.cc: Fix reversed logic for res_rotting. 07:44:51 what about eyes? 07:45:50 i wouldn't mention flesh there either 07:49:23 ok, thanks! 07:49:30 -!- Textmode has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:49:39 03kilobyte * recdbcf60ea7b 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-util.cc: Mark jellies, eyes and cobs as unfleshy. 08:23:22 -!- Gnash has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:25:12 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 08:25:32 should add some jellyfish to sewers 08:25:50 they're pathetic foes but might work in there 08:26:03 @??jellyfish 08:26:03 jellyfish (10J) | Speed: 10 | HD: 4 | Health: 13-32 | AC/EV: 0/5 | Damage: 104(poison, drain strength), 1 | Res: 06magic(16), 03poison, 12drown | Chunks: 09poisonous | XP: 60. 08:35:58 -!- upsy has joined ##crawl-dev 08:40:34 -!- Gnash has joined ##crawl-dev 09:12:22 -!- frogfrog_ has joined ##crawl-dev 09:18:30 omg?! a crocodile in a d3 sewer? :-O 09:18:36 No Purgy :( 09:18:52 need to up the chances, that's the second sewer adventure I've watched with the lizard instead 09:19:33 Besides, you killed it easily! 09:19:42 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 09:21:11 well ja, i was lucky :) 09:21:29 didn't see the blue exit gate at the top though 09:22:25 I almost commented on that.. wasn't there some change that abyss gates started to give messages when they became in view? 09:22:48 _Found a gate leading back to the Dungeon. 09:22:48 A crocodile comes into view. 09:22:59 Ah! 09:23:10 <- just panicked ;D 09:23:31 Happens. :) 09:23:41 someone suggested a more prompt for abyss gates 09:23:58 galehar: They can edit that in in the options, though I wouldn't midn if that was the default. 09:24:13 yep 09:28:57 03kilobyte * r7df1b9df7959 10/crawl-ref/source/godabil.cc: s/antisin/virtue/ 09:28:59 03kilobyte * ra1603b7a4ba2 10/crawl-ref/source/spl-goditem.cc: Fix card/Xom Tomb crashing. There's more than your puny Zin, do-gooders! Worship the only true god! 09:29:00 03kilobyte * raacc133cea35 10/crawl-ref/source/spl-goditem.cc: Allow to Tomb over unknown traps. 09:29:03 03kilobyte * r1eea11486f83 10/crawl-ref/source/spl-goditem.cc: Fix a wrong message when an invis monster blocks imprisonment. 09:29:04 03kilobyte * r41cdc4024675 10/crawl-ref/source/abl-show.cc: No imprisoning invisible stuff, either. 09:32:55 * Keskitalo dreams of finding time to test Zin, SpEn, DrFE, NaTm/C again, ... 09:34:24 SpEn is easy still 09:34:31 you know what's good about roguelike? You can play with a single hand. And feed the baby with the other ;) 09:34:35 well, babies cry only 90% of the time... 09:34:46 oh, that's only 90% of the time they're awake 09:35:00 but you should sleep when they're sleeping 09:35:09 that's true :) 09:35:15 galehar: that's particularly true for Crawl thanks to autoexplore 09:35:38 the problem is, when they have an actual reason like being hungry or having something in the diaper, it's easy. But usually they cry for no reason... 09:36:19 yeah, well stomach pains 09:36:53 you could make a great game with procedural content about babies and their woes, trying to figure out what you could do to soothe them 09:37:18 procedural bit would be that every baby is different and reacts differently, has different signals etc 09:38:29 the constant crying and stomach pains last only a few months. But it feels like a very long time... 09:39:02 indeed. six weeks down soon! 09:39:10 stomach pains are at least a reason 09:39:17 my sister's kid doesn't need any 09:39:51 it won't stop crying until you take it onto your hands 09:40:05 well, that's a reason, needs a lap 09:40:06 put it down and it instantly resumes 09:40:18 it depends. Not all babies cry all the time. Mine used to scream a lot ;) 09:40:31 -!- frogfrog_ has quit [Quit: Page closed] 09:40:38 now he only does it when his big brother steps on him or something :) 09:42:37 ooh, ssh to cdo looks playable on this connection (telnet isn't) 09:45:24 hmh, the lag is terrible but at least there aren't any actual drop-outs (so far) 09:45:30 good enough to test the tutorial! 09:47:55 this is really nice. 09:48:58 well, I see no reason to play tutorial on CDO 09:51:13 I don't have to wait 20 minutes to build :P 09:51:41 piecing the thing to episodes feels great already 09:51:47 also the recap screen at the end is a nice touch 09:53:28 20 minutes to build? Do all the devs have 5 years old machines? Or is it a netbook? 09:55:38 a two years old good machine does a build in 1m 50s, a brand new weak one in 44s... 09:55:52 the former was three times more expensive 09:56:29 I may be exaggarating a little, but this is a 2-3 years old laptop 09:58:11 since every version of Windows is at least an order of magnitude slower than the old one (with Vista/7 partially reversed), people have to buy lots of new gear and that boosts production and drives down prices 10:00:24 those of us on sane operating systems don't need that power for normal operations, so compilation times are the only big gain for me 10:00:38 about anything else is memory/IO bound 10:00:42 -!- Gnash has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:04:53 my ten years old laptop builds crawl in less than 20 minutes 10:06:11 it takes it no more than, well, 10 minutes, I think 10:06:21 but it takes it 5 hours to build gcc 10:06:28 (without bootstrapping, but with g++) 10:09:15 kilobyte: mine is almost identical to yours except the non-evil brands are in charms and invis is in hexes and there aren't any ridiculous charms/hexes spells 10:10:52 it's definitely not 'flipping a coin' 10:11:02 "non-evil brands"? I don't get what the three hypocrite gods have to do with something impartial like magic. 10:12:19 the magic involved is fundamentally different even if the gameplay effect look the same 10:12:37 'they're brands, so they should all go into the same school' is as stupid as 'they make pets, so they should all go into the same school' 10:12:55 or 'they deal damage, so they should all go into the same school' for that matter 10:14:50 crawl has objective morality now, didn't you know 10:14:53 also magic is sentient 10:16:55 Eronarn: i.e. not all that stupid really 10:17:06 want tool, invest in skill 10:17:19 conjurations should go to the Conjurations school, if there's no way to weasel out somehow (necromancy does this by having drawbacks). Summoning all goes to the Summoning school -- again, to weasel out you need something to turn into a summon (corpse, chunk, stick) 10:18:18 brands are all item enchantments, and none change the whole weapon to something else so none can claim tmut. It would be weird to have them split between schools. 10:18:48 the pet/conjuration point is ridiculous but it's okay because no one actually argues for it 10:19:30 Keskitalo: no, it is quite bad in a game like crawl, actually. a character can't learn all the spell schools, or even many of them for much of the game, to any degree of competency. if each school only does one thing that makes for boring gameplay 10:19:53 it's good to have stuff like ozo's and stoneskin and phase shift all defensive buffs in completely different school combinations 10:20:26 if they were all in the 'buff school' they would be repetitive and boring 10:21:40 kilobyte: you're wrongly assuming that item enchantments must be either charms or hexes 10:21:57 Ozocubu's Armour needs loads of Ice to be good, Stoneskin needs loads of Earth to be, well, adequate. You're not going to have both. 10:22:36 -!- jpeg_ has joined ##crawl-dev 10:22:37 cool way to completely miss the point of the comparison kilobyte 10:22:58 i eagerly await your patch making ozo charms/ice, stoneskin charms/earth, and phase shift charms/tloc 10:23:07 they are self-buffs, after all, and should go into the buff school 10:23:22 why can't you separate flavor and gameplay 10:23:28 it would be weird to have buffs split between schools 10:23:36 "pet school" "damage school" "buff school" is fantasy 10:23:37 this notebook here is 5 years old 10:23:59 so computer just crashed and now git got corrupted 10:24:27 jpeg_: the working tree or the repository itself? 10:24:38 OG17: "pet school" "damage school" "buff school" works worse than alternatives that crawl already has, where effects overflow into other schools 10:24:49 the former, I think, at least I haven't pushed anything 10:25:02 crawl's magic system is at its most interesting when there are multiple ways to achieve similar gameplay effects 10:25:05 I hope 10:25:18 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 10:25:41 I don't want to break anything which is why I don't know how to react 10:25:45 for about anything except for some terrible lossage within .git, there's reset --hard; for user errors, there's reflog 10:25:54 do you have any commits you didn't push? 10:26:13 or worse, uncommitted edits? 10:26:37 want to brand your weapon? well you can either use your knowledge of enhancing magic (to make your weapon more powerful), or your knowledge of afflicting magic (and then stab people to spread that magic to them) 10:27:03 I've got a commit I did just before I noticed the breakage 10:27:14 which I did when I tried to commit another edit 10:27:21 so that's yes to both 10:27:49 I've backed up the changes (saved them elsewhere) 10:27:54 Eronarn: and what's exactly the difference between the two? A weapon's sole purpose is to inflict wounds onto your enemy... 10:27:55 so it doesn't matter if I lose them 10:28:28 jpeg_: if you're afraid, you may push the commits somewhere (like a branch on sf) 10:28:47 I can't push and I can't check out anything 10:28:49 kilobyte: what's the difference between a conjuration damage spell and a necromancy damage spell? trick question: on some level there isn't one, because they both inflict wounds onto your enemy 10:28:52 well, what kind of breakage it is? 10:29:13 they don't have to have Wacky, Zany, Different Effects to belong to different school combos 10:29:27 "fatal: object 98a23e is corrupted" 10:29:32 Eronarn: there's no necro spell which does just that 10:29:35 except there's no such object in the log 10:29:47 kilobyte: pain, agony, dispel undead are nec direct damage spells 10:29:59 any downside to just checking out a clean version into a new directory? 10:30:28 jpeg_: losing the commits 10:31:13 kilobyte: doesn't matter, I've backed up the files 10:31:30 kilobyte: and even if I hadn't, that's loads better than breaking anything else 10:31:31 it's kind of weird you got filesystem damage of this kind... was this just a power loss or something bigger? 10:31:46 "something bigger" 10:32:20 uh oh... broken motherboard, RAM or another part means lots of "fun" and errors like this 10:32:21 I briefly saw Windows' blue error screen, then the computer rebooted 10:32:30 (before I was able to read it) 10:32:56 I was compiling Crawl at the time, which is probably how the repository broke 10:33:14 definitely not worth your time, I wouldn't touch the computer with a ten foot pole 10:34:35 NTFS is pretty vulnerable to filesystem damage when something happens, yeah... usually, with size 0 files 10:34:50 most of the time it runs fine (if a bit slow) 10:35:01 I'll do a clean checkout, thanks! 10:35:14 was it the first time it crashed? 10:35:35 the first time since I had it repaired last summer 10:35:44 (unless you count the three power outages we had since then) 10:36:04 maybe I should start using those batteries... 10:36:26 I'll get a new one ... eventually 10:37:06 ah, so it's probably the power faltering for a fraction of second or something rather than broken machine then 10:37:11 <+kilobyte> I wouldn't touch the computer with a ten foot pole <- I love this quote ;) 10:37:35 I find it pretty funny myself :) 10:37:54 galehar: I learned it the hard way to not even try to work around broken RAM/mobo 10:38:33 0 byte admin cannot delete files are <3 10:38:39 loads of obscure, insidious "bugs", data loss you don't find for months, all joy 10:38:41 http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0250.html 10:39:46 I wouldn't touch your skinny uptight ass with a standard-issue 10-ft. pole, you overbearing self-righteous bitch. 10:39:54 I've got to confess I just don't "get" oots 10:40:00 galehar: yeah, "wouldn't touch X with a ten foot pole" is something I've heard from Americans quite often, so no wonder Rich Burlew uses it 10:40:49 (and I use metric system everywhere save for stock phrases) 10:41:29 jpeg_: it's just great writing (story and dialogues) 10:42:04 galehar: I know that many people like it, and I still don't get it 10:42:20 though I read a lot of webcomics 10:43:04 Dancing weapons disappear on death, giving no XP/weapon (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3365) by st 10:45:14 it does rely somewhat on having played d&d or similar games 10:45:27 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:45:27 jpeg_: there's nothing to "get". Maybe the drawing needs some "getting used to", but then, the writing is just plain good. Interesting story, interesting characters, good jokes and great dialogues. 10:45:55 I'm pretty sure there's plenty of oots readers who have never thrown a d20 10:45:59 I love Goblins and Weregeek, so I doubt it's about not getting d&d :) 10:46:27 but the first volume relies a lot on d&d rules jokes, that's true. 10:46:32 just not my style, I guess 10:47:25 then again, David tried pressing "Lord of Light" on me, and while I started reading, I got bored and stopped soon enough 10:48:07 same 10:48:17 just don't say this anywhere near greensnark :p 10:48:25 :) 10:48:33 it's good, but slow 10:49:21 Eronarn: possible, I might even like it at some other point in time 10:49:36 that's enough heresy for today, gotta go grocery shopping 10:51:34 I didn't find lord of light slow, but then, I'm generally a slow reader :P 11:06:37 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 11:07:57 Eronarn: Don't forget Condensation Shield! :P 11:08:57 Eronarn: But okay, good point - "self buff" is a wide category. But I see no problem with Charms being the straightforward self buff school, whereas other schools have similar effects but with their own twist on them. 11:09:17 Hello jpeg_, I'm playing the tutorials on cdo 11:13:12 Keskitalo: charms being straightforward self buff is actually already boring, if you look at the list of spells in it 11:13:31 I have a couple of screenshots about stuff I think might be problematic (or what I already found problematic) 11:13:57 jpeg_: Mostly, it's awesome though! 11:14:03 there is definitely a niche for spells that make you better, but a school where there are no spells that don't do that is utterly one-dimensional 11:14:43 jpeg_: I already commented here that piecing it to episodes feels really good 11:14:44 charms can be about buffs in the same way conjurations is about damage (yet includes many cloud spells, cbl, conjure flame, etc.) 11:15:34 for example: imbue a stone with some effect and then throw it, and it lasts some duration and them crumbles 11:15:36 yeah, most of them are really straightforward 11:15:47 cast and enjoy the benefits 11:15:56 or a spell that 'buffs' an enemy, but does it in a way that is actually harmful to them. Like how petrify buffs their AC 11:16:14 say, a spell that raises a powerful magical shield around an enemy. So powerful that even air can't get through. 11:16:30 plus dual-school spells are too easy to cast with one school, and power doesn't do enough etc 11:16:34 Eronarn: Sounds like Hexes :P 11:16:38 Hexes are fine. 11:16:50 Well, in differentation/theme. Lack of spells is one thing. 11:17:11 Keskitalo: it's only hexes if you do a self/other split. If you do malevolent/benevolent, you can have spells that use "malevolent" energies to help you, or "benevolent" energies to harm someone else 11:17:47 gogo harry potter 11:18:26 one great example: in D&D, positive energy heals you. If you're already full, it can give you temporary HP. But living beings on the positive energy plane don't become super healthy buff guys - for long. Because with too much positive energy, they *explode into harmless light* because their body is too highly charged. 11:18:38 Keskitalo: the new team, to my knowlegde would like you to join the channel 11:18:53 in fact, without resistance spells, the only way to survive the plane is to constantly cut yourself or set yourself on fire or the like 11:18:55 felirx: Oh, good! What's the channel? 11:19:15 the course name + .crawl 11:19:38 and D&D's positive energy is strictly *good* aligned, not just 'benevolent' (which is much less tied to traditional notions of good/evil) 11:22:35 other charms that are benevolent but aren't just 'self buffs'... buff an ally, reinforce a door, give a large area a property it normally doesn't have, make an object indestructible and then use it in some way to take advantage of that, shove hostile clouds out of your surroundings (air/charms!) 11:22:54 jpeg_: In the first try on the third lesson, the kobolds were too tough because I wasted my stones on the jackals 11:24:31 Keskitalo: that might be a bug, because I explicitly specied q:30 stones, but sometimes you get a lot less than that 11:25:28 though the darts should work fine, unless you stay out in the open 11:25:35 sounds like the same bug where kobolds get way too much curare/dispersal in those minmay vaults, despite it saying q:2-3? 11:25:52 Keskitalo: also, i'd point to the current charms/hex descriptions as a flaw resulting from the current state of charms: 11:26:00 '+Hexes try to affect bestow various enchantments on nearby things. While none do direct damage, being ensorcelled can effectively take an opponent out of combat. Sadly, Hexes suffer greatly from spell resistance when cast on living beings.' 11:26:09 '+Charms provide you with a number of self-enhancing auras.' 11:26:56 MarvinPA: that might be worth looking into 11:27:20 -!- Kurper has joined ##crawl-dev 11:27:22 jpeg_: Yeah, q:n doesn't seem to be working - there's a BR 11:27:39 ah, what MarvinPA said 11:27:43 https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3166 11:27:45 :) 11:28:14 clouded (L27 DSAE) ASSERT(smc) in 'mon-util.cc' at line 1059 failed. (Abyss) 11:28:50 !lm . -log 11:28:51 14433. clouded, XL27 DSAE, T:171624 (milestone): http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/clouded/crash-clouded-20110201-172814.txt 11:30:22 placing corpses directly also doesn't work - they are much rarer than they are supposed to be 11:30:24 !tell due Reading your treatise, these comments: 1) I think Conj should be about creating short-lived energies prone to dissipation, rather than just any instance of 'something from nothing'. Similar effect, but it means 'something from nothing' spells don't necessarily have to be Conj. 11:30:24 Eronarn: OK, I'll let due know. 11:32:15 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:32:53 -!- galehar has quit [Quit: Page closed] 11:33:28 !tell due 2) The other half of 1) would then be Summoning being about longer-lived magical energies. Summoning does not have to be just 'bring a creature from here to there', as you note. I'd argue that it does not even need to strictly be about summoning a concrete 'thing': I think one would 'summon' darkness rather than 'conjure' it, for example. 11:33:28 Maximum message length is 300 characters. Eschew verbosity, Gladys! 11:33:57 !tell due 2) The other half of 1) would then be Summoning being about longer-lived magical energies. I'd argue that Summoning does not even need to be about summoning a concrete 'thing': I think one would 'summon' darkness rather than 'conjure' it, for example. 11:33:57 Eronarn: OK, I'll let due know. 11:35:08 !tetll due 3) I would like to see Tloc include time and gravity, rather than just moving from place to place. 11:35:15 !tell due 3) I would like to see Tloc include time and gravity, rather than just moving from place to place. 11:35:15 Eronarn: OK, I'll let due know. 11:35:48 oh that'd be cool, then we can have gravity flux for shattering fliers 11:36:47 !tell due 4) While I agree acid stuff shouldn't go in Poison currently, I think it would be good to mention the Alchemy proposal and where to go to discuss it. It won't go in .8, but I suspect it'll happen in some form over the long term. 11:36:47 Eronarn: OK, I'll let due know. 11:36:53 time eh, haste in tloc? :P 11:37:40 -!- jpeg_ has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:37:51 st_: haste could be flavored as time manipulation, but right now it's not 11:38:23 Crash after hell effect banishment (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3366) by st 11:38:24 comics have us beat on this one: one can be a speedster through manipulating time and just walking everywhere while nothing else moves, or by being Super Magically Fast 11:39:26 st_: his save has a MONS_NO_MONSTER on the transit list to Abyss 11:40:41 !tell due Other random note: in the long term I can get behind the Earth/Tmut decoupling. My problem with it is in the short term: Tmut was already lacking in good non-form spells. We should really add some new spells to compensate. 11:40:41 Eronarn: OK, I'll let due know. 11:53:10 -!- monqy has joined ##crawl-dev 11:55:08 -!- Mu_ has quit [Quit: Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place.] 12:07:45 treehugger (L11 TrEE) (D:11) 12:17:16 -!- ortoslon has quit [Quit: bye] 12:18:20 are people still in favor of brands being hexes or did that change in the past few hours 12:18:37 throw a coin 12:19:57 throwing is hex skill right 12:20:24 dunno 12:20:41 sounds like throwing would be a throwing skill in my opinion 12:21:25 how does throwing/hex sound 12:23:00 on second thought let's just use charms 12:39:31 treehugger (L12 TrEE) (D:12) 12:45:53 OG17: they're back to charms last i heard 12:46:02 they're back to charms? 12:46:03 really 12:46:10 I was writing up why hexes were dumb 12:46:12 could be wrong though! 12:46:17 no they're hexes 12:46:23 okay, i'm wrong 12:46:32 hurray 12:46:43 my split: still the best one 12:55:42 what is the current split meant to accomplish (I'm guessing your split is not the one being implemented Eronarn?) 12:59:09 all the splits generally seek to accomplish the same goals (split enchantments, have two interesting schools result from it) 13:00:49 the split being implemented uses self/other in an attempt to have a simple defining principle but in practice it doesn't have desirable flavor or mechanics, while also not being simpler than alternatives because stuff doesn't cleanly map to self/other anyways 13:01:12 https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?t=100 13:04:03 lots of praise in that thread :) 13:12:41 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:17:26 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 13:27:49 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 13:34:04 Donald new tile candidate (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3367) by Curio 13:52:38 valrus (L23 VpSu) (Vault:8) 13:52:50 uh 13:52:51 hm 13:53:09 !log 13:53:10 530. valrus, XL11 VpSu, T:23596: http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/valrus/morgue-valrus-20110121-003902.txt 13:53:21 !crash 13:54:02 how do I get a crash log? 13:54:07 !lm valrus_ crash -log 13:54:07 3. valrus, XL23 VpSu, T:88796 (milestone): http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/valrus/crash-valrus-20110201-195238.txt 13:54:14 thx 13:54:59 hmm, something I observed playing trunk Sprint a couple of days ago, and am not sure if it affects the main game or if it's even a bug: if you sticks-to-snakes near shining eyes and the snakes get polymorphed, they seem to stick around permanently after that 13:55:04 is that a bug? if so, I'll report it 14:07:00 Skan (L9 HuWn) (D:7) 14:13:47 how about giving bucklers to fighters instead of shields? 14:16:44 !tell due how about giving bucklers to fighters instead of shields? 14:16:44 Napkin: OK, I'll let due know. 14:19:10 valrus (L23 VpSu) (Vault:7) 14:21:17 ais523: that sounds like a bug to me 14:21:32 as it was in Sprint, I wasn't sure if they were confined to the level or something like that 14:21:39 and it's nontrivial to reproduce in the main game 14:21:43 let me try in wizard mode 14:23:01 (it'll take a while, because I'm recompiling latest trunk) 14:23:07 @??shining eye 14:23:07 shining eye (13G) | Speed: 7 | HD: 10 | Health: 39-71 | AC/EV: 3/1 | Flags: see invisible, lev, !sil | Res: 13magic(immune), asphyx | Chunks: 06mutagenic | XP: 546 | Sp: polymorph other. 14:23:54 it's presumably the polymorph other spell that's responsible 14:25:06 i'd say try using playing polymorph other first 14:25:10 player* 14:25:18 yep, I'll try that 14:25:26 although I'm not sure what effect it has on monster tameness 14:25:37 sticks to snakes was recently bugged to leave corpses, so it doesn't surprise me that there are other things wrong with it 14:25:51 oh, I didn't realise that was a bug at all 14:26:02 although I noticed it 14:34:24 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 14:41:44 yep, casting Polymorph Other seems to work too 14:41:46 I'll report it 14:44:42 hmm, I wonder if the same trick is possible with permanent zombies? 14:45:14 zombies can't be polymorphed if that's what you mean 14:45:29 yep, that's what I meant, and that's a sensible enough fix 14:46:01 I should probably try more standard NetHack exploits in Crawl to see if they work; players polymorph pets all the time in NetHack 14:46:10 although I discovered that in Crawl by accident, playing FeTm in SPrint 14:47:02 -!- blackpenguin has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4] 14:48:15 I suppose polymorphing snakesticks might be a fun (and potentially overpowered midgame?) tactic even if they did wither after a bit 14:49:29 Casting polymorph other at sticks transformed into snakes gives permanent allies (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3368) by ais523 14:54:31 -!- blackpenguin has joined ##crawl-dev 15:06:22 clouded (L27 DSAE) ASSERT(smc) in 'mon-util.cc' at line 1059 failed. (Abyss) 15:07:05 clouded (L27 DSAE) ASSERT(smc) in 'mon-util.cc' at line 1059 failed. (Abyss) 15:07:34 -!- syllogism has quit [] 15:11:38 clouded (L27 DSAE) ASSERT(smc) in 'mon-util.cc' at line 1059 failed. (Abyss) 15:11:46 stuck in pan :( 15:14:01 -!- ais523 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:14:19 -!- OG17 has quit [Quit: OG17] 15:14:29 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 15:16:47 -!- OG17 has joined ##crawl-dev 15:21:11 -!- upsy has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:22:12 -!- upsy has joined ##crawl-dev 15:40:08 -!- Sequell has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:41:23 -!- Sequell has joined ##crawl-dev 15:43:44 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:51:54 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 15:54:46 hmm, along those lines: what about repeatedly hitting summoned hydras with a negatively enchanted longsword in order to make them grow heads? 15:55:56 zombies/animals don't go hostile when you fire spells at them but they do when you hit them, also summoned hydras last for like 20 turns 15:56:27 hmm, 20 would probably be enough 15:56:47 and I suppose you could use a hostile intelligent creature and give them a sword to let them do your dirty work for you 15:57:23 monsters aren't nearly as good at cutting off hydra heads as players are 15:57:43 and it isn't worth it for a temporary hydra unless you are extending its duration a lot with TSO or something 15:58:44 I was thinking to get it up to 27 heads quickly and then letting it oneshot a boss before it faded 15:59:00 shielding them from each other with a scroll of fog or something while you were doing it 15:59:39 this sounds ridiculously contrived 16:00:26 thinking up ridiculously contrived things is what I like doing 16:00:39 it will basically always be better to summon two hydras instead :P 16:00:58 I'm currently trying to find the fastest theoretically possible game of NetHack, and most of the steps in that are ridiculously contrived 16:02:26 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:11:23 nht (L24 FeTm) (Snake:5) 16:11:46 nht (L24 FeTm) (Snake:5) 16:13:00 -!- ais523 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:13:19 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 16:16:49 nht (L24 FeTm) (Snake:5) 16:16:51 nht (L24 FeTm) (Snake:5) 16:16:56 nht (L24 FeTm) (Snake:5) 16:17:10 nht (L24 FeTm) (Snake:5) 16:18:27 what is Gretell reporting? 16:18:41 it just seems like whereis info for no reason at all 16:18:54 those are crashes 16:19:17 hmm, I thought that might be it, although I wasn't sure 16:22:25 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 16:22:26 -!- stabwound has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:23:23 yeah, they're crashes that aren't assert failures 16:23:37 !lg nht crash -log 16:23:37 Unknown selector: verb 16:23:55 !lm nht crash -log 16:23:55 38. nht, XL24 FeTm, T:52514 (milestone): http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/nht/crash-nht-20110201-221710.txt 16:24:09 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 16:26:54 -!- Gnash has joined ##crawl-dev 16:27:39 -!- ais523 has quit [] 16:27:54 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 16:34:00 Hii. 16:34:00 due: You have 7 messages. Use !messages to read them. 16:34:03 7?? 16:34:04 !messages 16:34:05 (1/7) Keskitalo said (9h 22m 19s ago): spells treatise looks good to me. thanks for writing it up! (or is it down?) i know dpeg wanted to have conj == direct damage, which'd have appeal because of drawing the line by playstyle (largely), i used to think so too but not so sure nowadays 16:34:12 !messages 16:34:13 (1/6) Eronarn said (5h 3m 49s ago): Reading your treatise, these comments: 1) I think Conj should be about creating short-lived energies prone to dissipation, rather than just any instance of 'something from nothing'. Similar effect, but it means 'something from nothing' spells don't necessarily have to be Conj. 16:34:21 !messages 16:34:21 (1/5) Eronarn said (5h 24s ago): 2) The other half of 1) would then be Summoning being about longer-lived magical energies. I'd argue that Summoning does not even need to be about summoning a concrete 'thing': I think one would 'summon' darkness rather than 'conjure' it, for example. 16:34:29 !messages 16:34:29 (1/4) Eronarn said (4h 59m 14s ago): 3) I would like to see Tloc include time and gravity, rather than just moving from place to place. 16:34:33 !messages 16:34:33 (1/3) Eronarn said (4h 57m 46s ago): 4) While I agree acid stuff shouldn't go in Poison currently, I think it would be good to mention the Alchemy proposal and where to go to discuss it. It won't go in .8, but I suspect it'll happen in some form over the long term. 16:34:33 1tell due hi how are yo 16:34:38 !messages 16:34:38 1tell due u 16:34:38 (1/2) Eronarn said (4h 53m 57s ago): Other random note: in the long term I can get behind the Earth/Tmut decoupling. My problem with it is in the short term: Tmut was already lacking in good non-form spells. We should really add some new spells to compensate. 16:34:47 !messages 16:34:47 (1/1) Napkin said (2h 18m 3s ago): how about giving bucklers to fighters instead of shields? 16:35:04 Napkin: Perhaps bucklers to smaller fighter races? 16:35:15 hey, moin due :) 16:35:44 i was actually thinking to as many as possible - unless the attack-speed-delay of shields is really wanted 16:35:47 due: bucklers are superior to shields early on for normal-sized races also 16:35:51 !tell Eronarn All good thoughts and suggestions. I'm afeart to check my inbox. :) 16:35:51 due: OK, I'll let Eronarn know. 16:36:03 sorry i sent so many, but wasn't sure if i'd be around later 16:36:03 Eronarn: You have 3 messages. Use !messages to read them. 16:36:13 !tell Keskitalo Thanks! Yes, it's just based on my opinions at the moment. Dangerous, I know, but hey... 16:36:13 due: OK, I'll let Keskitalo know. 16:36:16 luckily i wiped my mtg draft!!! 16:36:30 Eronarn: No, it's fine. I'll skim over them later tonight and adjust accordingly. 16:36:49 Eronarn: you were going to write something about permanent enchantments, weren't you? 16:37:05 Surprisingly the Regen -> Necro/Tmut change got objections :( 16:37:11 due: i did add some school flavoring thoughts to my immense page on the wiki, if you haven't seen that; specifically discusses summ 16:37:18 bad objections 16:37:27 'how could manipulating flesh be transmutation' 16:38:04 TGWi: yes but i decided i'm going to hold off on it a bit since it's definitely not going to happen in .8 anyways 16:38:39 i think at this point we should be trying to figure out which spells need to be reshuffled and where there will be gaps so we can come up with new / fixed spells and have enough time to actually test them 16:38:55 we need a concrete list of spells 16:38:58 and the current issues with them. 16:39:33 i've been thinking of how it can be represented 16:39:48 i was considering a 5 point scale from 'utterly crap' to 'totally overpowered' 16:40:46 make a simple survey web app that collects ratings and crunch the numbers broken down by devs / good players / average players 16:41:02 this will let us find the contentious spells, the spells everyone agrees are too good, and the spells everyone agrees sucks 16:41:14 perhaps a separate category for people like elliptic who are very good at finding exploits 16:41:21 'good players' 16:41:28 winning crawl is an exploit 16:41:29 but I suppose those sorts of issues are normally fixed via the bug tracker 16:41:41 Eronarn: I mean, most people who win Crawl do so by just being good at it 16:42:08 but there are also people who do things like get hit by distortion, ending up next to the Orb, in Sprint; and then abyss themselves to get out again 16:42:17 (I think that's been fixed nowadays, but it's that sort of thing I'm referring to) 16:42:28 again: 'good players' 16:42:40 there aren't enough players like that to make them their own category 16:43:06 'people who have never won except by luck' isn't a category that exists except in 1) sprint and 2) me 16:43:28 and this would ideally be a weekend kind of project, too, nto a vast undertaking 16:43:33 TGWi: I've got runes like that 16:43:39 but never actually won 16:43:55 I got quite good at a character build which could get the abyssal rune maybe 5% of the time, but generally died on D:1 afterwards 16:44:00 you can't exactly accidentally get three runes and the orb 16:44:31 I might misinterpret that as a challenge 16:44:34 although I can't see how to do it either 16:44:58 abyssal, demonic, demonic would have been possible with enough luck a few versions ago, but there aren't Pan portals in the Abyss any more 16:44:59 hire a million monkeys, put them on terminals 16:45:09 minmay_holes appears at branch ends (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3369) by minmay 16:45:09 they'll eventually produce the works of n78291 16:52:54 one thought I have: where should we put effort into spells? buffing stuff that wasn't viable before (like the ignite poison patch), adding stuff that just plain didn't exist as a capability (leda's), nerfing stuff that seems to be choking out other playstyles (any sublimation or regen nerf) 16:54:09 Eronarn: to be honest, "all" 16:54:17 balancing unbalanced stuff should come first 16:54:22 then buffing non-viable spells second 16:54:27 finally new spells should be third. 16:56:33 due: of course all, but ranking is what i'm after, yes :P 16:56:55 because sometimes a change slots in quick but other times you get something like golubria where still nobody knows what it's for 16:58:25 IMO make golubria L4 and/or buff it in other ways (longer duration, say) 16:59:14 elliptic: i don't think it's worth including in its current state even if its level were dropped 16:59:50 why not? at L4 I'd probably use it sometimes 17:00:14 -!- ais523 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:00:14 it is a cool spell, just a bit overpriced 17:03:34 elliptic: good idea 17:05:45 due: btw, have you seen https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3368 yet? 17:11:12 elliptic: i don't think it's a cool spell really, it has the potential to be one but the effect itself (not just the level it's at) is underwhelming 17:12:46 being able to teleport monsters or yourself to specific locations is underwhelming? 17:13:19 the way it's implemented with golubria, yeah 17:13:28 not talking about power, but about fun 17:14:43 well, to me the main reason it isn't so fun currently is that you have to cast a L5 spell at least twice to make any use of it 17:14:52 for me, it doesn't feel like a portal-making spell, but like a trap-making spell 17:14:54 that's annoying for reasons of hunger, MP, etc 17:15:01 what's wrong with a trap-making spell? 17:15:32 you can also use it to set up an escape for yourself 17:15:42 (would work better if it had higher duration) 17:16:33 elliptic: no, which one is it? 17:16:52 i'd rather see it be more focused around the idea of it being a portal than use the teletrap implementation but at a lower level 17:17:02 due: another sticks to snakes bug... 17:17:20 there's nothing 'wrong' with a trap-making spell but it has a very different feel 17:17:26 elliptic: "argh" 17:17:43 i think i can guess what it is 17:17:51 eronarn: how would you like it to be more like a portal? I'm not really sure what you expect of it, since it is already rather like a portal... 17:17:56 oh, it's not 17:18:10 it's not at all like a portal 17:18:23 either in the crawl sense or the other-magic-systems sense 17:18:26 eronarn: you travel from one location to another by going through it 17:18:31 how is that not a portal 17:18:48 i travel from one location to another by going through a door, that doesn't mean it's a portal tho- 17:18:51 oh wait 17:18:54 uh 17:19:24 haha 17:19:54 again, not sure what you think a portal is 17:20:09 -!- pointless_ has joined ##crawl-dev 17:20:15 all portals are teleportation devices; not all teleportation devices are portals 17:20:37 ... 17:20:38 it feels like... a teleportation trap, because it is 17:20:53 please give an example of something more portal-like 17:21:20 perhaps it should put you on a unique level with an n x 1 floor layout that you walk across to the exit portal? 17:21:44 zannick: overpowered as an escape probably 17:22:04 most kinds of portals in fantasy/sci fi 17:22:10 say, a stargate 17:22:12 you cannot rest here/ you can only move in one direction 17:22:20 probably exceedingly silly 17:22:32 hint: crawl is not science fiction 17:23:18 please, lots of games call instant teleport spells "portal" even 17:23:30 A) reminder that it has radiation, giant orange brains, mutations, etc. B) that has nothing to do with portals?? stargate-like portals crop up in a lot of fantasy too 17:24:12 (for the record, I have no idea what a stargate is and I've read plenty of science fiction) 17:24:14 http://www.sapdesignguild.org/editions/edition3/images/portal_hierarchy.gif let's just implement this flowchart and be done with it 17:25:19 elliptic: from the stargate movie / tv series, it's a big metal ring several meters wide that makes a big glowy gateway that you step through and wind up coming out of another gateway on another planet 17:25:22 if you don't think that a set of two gates such that when you enter one you are transported to the other one is a portal... I don't know what to tell you 17:25:35 i'm saying that they don't at all feel like gates currently 17:25:41 eronarn: that sounds... awfully like portal of golubria 17:25:57 you enter a gateway and come out of another gateway 17:26:02 listen to what you are saying, please 17:26:10 not really! you can't hide behind golubria, fire through it, dart through and then back, etc. 17:26:32 golubria does not feel like a physical object, which is what portals i am talking about are 17:26:49 it feels like a tile that when you step in it you get moved somewhere (but otherwise the tile is the same as it always was, a big empty space) 17:27:01 -!- Gnash has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:27:24 this doesn't even work the same way crawl portals do (you can stand on them and use > to go into them) so it's not like you are defending anything sensible here 17:27:37 perhaps make golubria feel more physical then 17:27:43 okay, now you've actually explained your objection 17:27:45 thank you 17:27:52 (you hadn't before) 17:28:28 interacting with more stuff would be cool, but part of the point of golubria is that it is very unstable and collapses when used once 17:28:48 (this is also a way to prevent most abuses) 17:29:10 it wouldn't have the same set of abuses if it functioned differently though, so that may not even end up relevant 17:29:26 "same set" as what? 17:30:17 as current golubria; for example maybe monsters don't walk through it dumbly if it's between you and them, but you can still lure monsters through it 17:30:18 all I meant was that a more permanent, stable portal is obviously much more powerful 17:32:13 ideally it'd work like a Portal portal i think though that seems like it'd stress crawl's code way too much 17:33:08 I'd much much rather see an interesting low-level spell than a spell so powerful that it has to be made L8 or 9 17:33:53 and anything like what you are saying sounds like it would need to be that high-level, because you are throwing around very powerful effects 17:34:19 i don't think the current spell is that interesting though, it's pretty boring if you aren't trying to use it in broken ways 17:34:37 pretty boring? it has lots of possible uses 17:34:39 be more creative 17:36:23 it has lots of possible uses that are definitely broken and a lot of limitations that have to be in place to make those uses at all sane but hamper lots of other potential uses of it 17:36:30 you can use it yourself as a weak controlled blink to run from stuff faster or to stab stuff better, you can use it as a more long-distance escape route that you set up ahead of time, you can use it as a controlled teleport other spell... 17:38:32 yes, you can, and it is pretty annoying to actually use for those purposes because of its limitations (but those limitations, again, have to be there or else it would be too good) 17:38:53 which limitations are you talking about? the main one is being L5 17:39:02 and I'm not convinced it would be too good at L4 17:39:24 having to cast it twice, only being able to use it once, it timing out 17:39:29 it isn't overpowered as is and there are lots of parameters to tweak 17:42:52 my thought on it after trying it was that i'd rather see a spell that made a bunch of random portals in the area, which you went through with > and chose one to come out of, and every time you went into one (not come out of) it might dissipate afterwards 17:44:13 fyi, currently the one you go into dissipates, not the one you come out of 17:44:38 since it sounds like you were suggesting that it is the other way around 17:45:08 I don't have anything against your suggestion, but I also don't see any reason to give up on golubria without making any attempt to fix it 17:47:50 i was going to say 'go through' but i wanted to clarify that you end up still standing on top of a >-able portal (but the one you went into might not be there) 17:48:42 also i am fine with trying to fix golubria i just don't dig on the basic gameplay of the spell 17:49:45 one modification to it might be: you place a beacon and can later do a transposition of the two; stuff around you goes to the beacon and stuff around the beacon goes to you 17:50:06 tome has a spell that works like this and it sounds lame but it's *incredibly* fun in practice 17:50:30 Xcode project does not build properly (crawl-cmd, others?) (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3370) by ziz 17:50:59 in general it is hard to keep this sort of spell from being overpowered without putting some pretty serious limitations on it 17:51:26 anything that manipulates space-time is just naturally very strong 17:52:45 yay trying to explain set theory to someone complaining that an implementation "doesn't order them properly" :| 17:53:15 -!- felirx has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:53:33 yes... the tome spell is just flat out broken, it's like cblink except anything in a small radius around your target gets moved to where you were (also it damages them) 17:53:58 but some variation on it, where you choose a point and later return to it, could i think be workable 17:54:55 a gravity based knockback/pull could also work as an alternative 17:55:58 speaking of tloc spells, did dispersal get buffed? I seem to remember something about reducing it to L6 or something 17:56:32 but that probably isn't enough to make it very attractive 17:56:53 replacing it with a new spell along the lines of what you are saying could be nice 17:58:35 i don't believe it was 17:58:44 dispersal is 6 17:58:45 warp weapon is 5 17:58:51 oh, huh, missed that 17:58:59 MarvinPA <3 18:00:51 if there were Gravity Pulse + Gravity Flux that would probably be a pretty great set of tloc/earth 18:02:11 -!- eith_ has joined ##crawl-dev 18:05:30 -!- eith has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:08:08 -!- eith_ is now known as eith 18:15:53 omg! 18:16:04 now.. that's worth a screenshot 18:16:11 oooooooo 10 orc warriors 18:16:12 o 47 orcs 18:16:50 -!- pointless_ has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.13/20101203075014]] 18:18:30 yum 18:19:42 due: I'm having fun trying to get permadragons from s2s :P 18:20:05 st_: I'll fix it later; your fun will be shortlived. 18:33:31 -!- Twinge_ has joined ##crawl-dev 18:37:27 -!- Twinge has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:40:56 -!- pointless_ has joined ##crawl-dev 18:50:02 -!- pointless_ has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.13/20101203075014]] 18:50:50 Blades in Hall of Blades give no XP and produce no corpses (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3371) by kurper 18:55:52 Crocodiles and alligators' names should be switched (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3372) by ledtim 18:56:37 03kilobyte * rea2cc35cabda 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/variable/mini_features.des: Don't generate minmay_holes on non-shaftable levels. 18:59:54 ... 19:00:04 I'm just going to ignore that crocodile one. 19:00:16 That is the stupidest thing I ever heard. 19:00:33 rename iguana's to baby crocodile!! 19:00:34 Coming into this game with assumptions only lasts as long as til you die to that monster. 19:00:40 crocogator 19:01:15 allidile 19:01:28 imo change it to "dwarf crocodile" so it's obvious which is which 19:01:45 rename them both to dire _ 19:01:55 giant alligator 19:02:02 gharial 19:02:11 limned gharial 19:07:49 -!- due has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:10:22 -!- eith has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:18:56 -!- Gnash has joined ##crawl-dev 19:22:15 similarly the names of wasps and bears should be reversed 19:22:40 -!- Mu_ has quit [Quit: Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place.] 19:24:16 the bear stings you! the bear deposits eggs in you! 19:25:25 I fully agree 19:40:17 -!- Vandal has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:24:10 -!- felirx has joined ##crawl-dev 20:28:44 -!- Gnash has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:32:45 -!- Gnash has joined ##crawl-dev 20:46:01 -!- upsy has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:47:12 -!- upsy has joined ##crawl-dev 21:10:30 -!- Twinge_ is now known as Twinge 21:26:25 -!- enne has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:12:10 -!- evilmike has joined ##crawl-dev 22:23:30 -!- enne has joined ##crawl-dev 23:12:18 20 abyss vaults (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3373) by evilmike 23:19:38 -!- Gnash has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:25:13 -!- Gnash has joined ##crawl-dev 23:54:59 -!- casmith789 is now known as puddinbane 23:55:05 -!- puddinbane is now known as casmith789