00:06:53 Renewing Conjure Flame fails to increase duration... (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3307) by Twilight 00:49:27 -!- purge has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:03:14 -!- valrus_ has joined ##crawl-dev 01:09:04 -!- TGWiglaf has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:37:17 -!- valrus_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:38:03 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:21:44 -!- Twinge has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:21:53 -!- Twinge has joined ##crawl-dev 02:29:57 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 02:52:51 -!- monqy has quit [Quit: hello] 02:52:57 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 02:53:20 hi 02:54:41 hi galehar 02:58:17 -!- eith has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:04:48 -!- Giomancer has joined ##crawl-dev 03:14:38 due: about doxygen, the example you sent yesterday seems fine to me. Also, I don't see the problem with putting some documentation in the headers. 03:15:25 document the interface in the headers and the implementation in the source 03:15:27 galehar: yes, thanks! 03:15:32 that makes sense 03:16:57 03due * r66345ab78781 10/crawl-ref/source/ (mapdef.cc mapdef.h): Add a "use_all" specifier for vault shops. 03:16:57 03due * r01cb1e7cf119 10/crawl-ref/source/dungeon.cc: Make use_all shop specification work. 03:17:12 03due * rbcea7960ee75 10/crawl-ref/source/mapdef.h: Doxygen: document shop_spec, trap_spec, feature_spec. 03:30:00 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:32:54 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 03:40:16 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:48:13 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 03:49:53 due, galehar: can you think of any reason to keep poisoned sling bullets? About anything in the patch that added them has been reverted: removal of Warpers, books of Elemental/Devastating/Warped Missiles, reaping ammo, multi-branded ammo. 03:50:44 it's really hard to explain how can you poison someone with a round pebble coated with poison 03:51:30 -!- galehar has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:51:55 I dunno. 03:52:06 Are you talking about disallowing the brand or just disallowing their generation? 03:52:16 I think with poison weapon it should be fine to allow poisoned sling blulets. 03:52:29 However I'm uncertain as to whether or not we should remove the generation. 03:52:58 Not being able to come up with a good explanation doesn't mean that it should be removed... 03:53:10 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:53:16 -!- Textmode has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:53:38 Erll 03:53:52 Well, I got them via Poison Weapon 03:54:05 magic can be wiggled around a long way, but both poison and slings are mundane objects that saw wide use in RL 03:54:36 But not magic poison! 03:55:00 So? 03:55:16 My opinion is that it shouldn't occur naturally, as it were 03:55:28 Solution: "They're magic poisoned bullets". 03:55:52 Our concept of poison is vastly different to real world poison, anyway (in that it's recoverable from without antivenine). 03:55:56 that would be acid or something to get through skin 03:56:52 Uh... your whole argument seems to hinge on "it couldn't happen in real life"? 03:57:14 Poisoned sling bullets are useful and as far as I can tell not particularly unbalanced. 04:03:33 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 04:03:37 -!- Zaba has quit [Changing host] 04:03:37 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 04:08:31 no, my argument is about "this puzzles the shit out of people and looks wrong to me too" 04:08:55 which stems from the expectation that mundane objects behave realistically, yes 04:09:09 Then the expectation is the flaw. 04:09:12 anyway, better solution: 04:09:21 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 04:09:25 replace poisoned sling bullets with poisoned, spiked sling bullets. 04:09:36 they're functionally identical but have the added flavour of poison-tipped spikes. 04:09:49 or "tiny poison barbs" 04:12:17 or perhaps just outright spikes 04:12:26 it could be hard to launch them, though 04:13:13 -!- elliptic has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 04:13:42 can maces have venom brand? 04:16:34 some poisons work with just contact. But I'd rather have crawl's poison only on piercing/slashing/... weapons and not on blunt ones 04:17:13 In general, I'd like if there were more diffentiation with damage type. For now, it only affects hydra and stabbing I guess 04:17:58 For example, skeletons could partially resist piercing and slashing damages 04:19:56 galehar: "meh" is my reaction to that. 04:20:20 the only reason to do this is to make crawl feel more "real" and that would appear to go down a weirrd path. 04:20:25 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sling_%28weapon%29 doesn't suggest anyone used spiked sling bullets 04:20:32 kilobyte: So? 04:21:02 although it does have a fun item: bullets with "take that" written on them, a bas relief made from the mold 04:21:07 there is a point we have to sacrifice realism for gameplay viability. 04:21:38 due: my point is to use realism as a pretext for weapon differenciation. 04:21:43 what are sling bullets needed for? You already can use needles or arrows for that. 04:21:53 needles hardly need any skill, too 04:21:58 er 04:22:00 and also to throw a bone at blunt weapon users who are generally at a disadvantage 04:22:18 (I mean, _poisoned_ sling bullets) 04:22:29 because? 04:23:23 kilobyte: I agree with removing poisoned sling bullets. 04:23:38 I think I made it kind of clear that I don't. 04:23:42 galehar: Keskitalo also wanted to differentiate damage types, he wrote up a wiki page 04:23:52 I think something like the Wesnoth damage type model 04:24:11 Having to change weapons when fighting a skeleton sounds scummy. 04:24:18 Wesnoth tends to be extremely rock-paper-scissorsy, but a milder version would be nice 04:24:27 Er. 04:24:30 s/scummy/grindy/ 04:24:47 greensnark: What is your opinion on poisoned sling bullets? Seeing as people are disagreeing with the realism factor, should they go? 04:24:55 4.1 had different kinds of critical hits for different damage types 04:25:21 I don't really mind either way on poisoned sling bullets 04:25:38 Contact poisons are pretty uncommon, though, so I'd lean in favour of dropping blunt poison 04:25:55 *Lethal contact poison 04:26:02 Hence, spiked sling bullts! 04:26:09 Why not :) 04:26:18 Because there's no such thing in real life, apparently. 04:26:19 :| 04:26:21 Plutonium sling bullets 04:26:25 Ooh, plutonium <3. 04:26:35 Collect too many and *BOOM* 04:26:36 Also, greensnark, I sent you an email re: doxygen and l_XXX files. 04:26:52 due: it's not about realism, but about weapon differenciation. If they can all have the same brand, it's less interesting. 04:26:53 due: Yeah, that's a can of worms email :) 04:27:04 If you put on boots of running and get up to 88mph with enough plutonium bullets, do you go back in time? 04:27:14 galehar: Is this about bullets or something else? 04:27:16 Don't you need a delorean 04:27:20 True. 04:27:27 bullets 04:27:48 That's not differentiation, that's a nerf against sling users. 04:28:19 btw, I cast the spell on the sling, not the bullets. 04:28:20 sling is already quite powerful isn't it? 04:28:24 slings are madly powerful early on 04:28:48 Anyway, you can't chhange arguments mid stream. All of the comments so far have been "sling bullets shouldn't be poisoned because they're smooth". 04:28:49 good damage and no poison seems like a diffentiation from darts and needles 04:29:47 I think the gameplay impact of removing poisoned sling bullet is interesting, and as a bonus, realism can be used as a pretext. 04:29:49 due: what's wrong with having TWO reasons not one? Both being smooth and thus unable to deliver poison, and weapon differentiation, are valid reasons. 04:30:09 kilobyte: Yes, but I have been defending it based purely on realism and now something else comes in and I am confused :( 04:30:39 :p 04:30:48 anyway, I am fine for removing poisoned sling bullets from generating if poison weapon remains functional on slings. 04:31:04 greensnark: Well, yeah. 04:31:28 greensnark: but apart from worminess, what did you think of my second option? 04:31:41 because you're going it the wrong way. Sure, realism cannot be used as the only argument for a change. But more realism can't be used as an argument against a change. 04:32:16 You've... definitely lost me now. 04:34:12 That only works up until a certain point. 04:34:32 Our policy has always been to temper realism with sanity. ie, butchering corpses with a dagger of venom does not poison the corpse. 04:34:44 (Not that I am saying that sanity is an issue here.) 04:34:48 Saying "let's change that just because it's more realistic" isn't enough. But saying "let's not change that because it's more realistic" doesn't make sense. 04:34:53 galehar: why realism as the only argument wouldn't be enough? (Not that it's the only one in this particular case, but in general.) At least for mundane objects, them working differently than in RL is a straight bug in my book rather than something discussable. 04:35:41 Well it can be enough if the gameplay impact is inexistant or acceptable 04:35:42 I am becoming frustrated. Obviously we have differing design principles. 04:35:55 Someone asked dpeg to decide, I am going to bed. Goodnight. 04:36:05 due: there's relatively little poison on the dagger -- just like hunting animals with poison doesn't render them totally unfit for eating 04:36:10 gameplay > realism. Doesn't mean realism should be ignored. 04:36:15 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 04:36:37 kilobyte: And we have varying values of "poison" in weapon brands now? 04:36:38 'night 04:37:18 no, why? 04:37:31 "there's relatively little poison on the dagger". 04:37:35 Anyway, I'm leaving. This is frustrating and I'm starting to get annoyed and possibly I am just irritable because it's been a long day (in which case, my apologies for acting grumpy earlier). 04:38:32 ok, we'll argue another day. Thanks for the shop goodness, BTW. 04:40:44 -!- Giomancer has quit [Quit: Man who run behind car get exhausted] 04:41:30 ??zin wrath 04:41:30 zin wrath[1/1]: Recite (either sleep, confusion or paralysis), removes a good mutation, makes you hungry or makes noise. 04:41:53 we should change this to match Eronarn's new recite 04:42:29 -!- cw_ has joined ##crawl-dev 04:43:27 realism is a strange position to argue from when there are other bullets that will freeze you on contact 04:44:41 (I lied, decided to have ice cream instead) kilobyte: I actually do not care heavily too much either way. Sorry, I got a little bit fixated on it. Feel free to do whatever you want with it. 04:46:39 due: nice, customised shops! 04:49:18 Mu_: obviously, freezing and flaming brands are magic. Poison on missiles isn't (at least that's the idea) 04:49:41 Mu_: :) 05:02:15 due: wtf cigotuvi's is fixed 05:02:22 did you do something?? 05:02:25 Mu_: :D nope 05:02:35 hooray self-fixing bugs 05:02:43 !lm * place=wizlab -5 -tv:>$ 05:02:43 1112. Ocedius, XL17 DSCK, T:49006 (milestone) requested for FooTV. 05:03:09 they do a couple of final shouts! and then go back to using their speech :P 05:07:45 Eronarn: awake? 05:07:53 Mu_: :D 05:08:10 Eronarn: there's a wild inconsistency about whether lethal recite effects give you xp or not 05:19:59 03kilobyte 07recite * r5c8090ca7a48 10/crawl-ref/source/ (6 files): Rename ENCH_CORONA_ZIN as well, it's too mistakeable for Corona. 05:20:09 03kilobyte 07recite * r0416e5052422 10/crawl-ref/source/ (enum.h monster.cc): Fix save compat of monster enchantments. 05:33:43 -!- upsy has joined ##crawl-dev 05:41:59 moin 05:42:05 hi 05:50:39 03galehar * rc0e89c07162a 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-behv.cc: Only move into firing position if player has taken a step. 05:51:16 -!- TGWi has joined ##crawl-dev 07:15:10 kilobyte: lethal recite should give you XP, i might've done it wrong though! 07:20:28 Eronarn: ok, thanks 07:56:05 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 07:57:09 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:58:49 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 08:22:05 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 08:38:57 !tell due I just saw a trapdoor spider making disturbances 08:38:58 Eronarn: OK, I'll let due know. 08:45:22 hayenne (L15 FeBe) (D:1 (Sprint)) 08:57:23 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 09:01:06 -!- eith has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:10:07 -!- ais523 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:10:55 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 09:11:08 -!- galehar has quit [Quit: Page closed] 09:20:32 -!- cw_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:26:03 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 09:34:53 !tell due toss in air elementals to the list of disturbing buggers 09:34:54 kilobyte: OK, I'll let due know. 09:35:51 How about we merge square_LOS in trunk but put all the code in #ifdef CHEBYSHEV 09:36:10 -!- cw_ has joined ##crawl-dev 09:36:16 !tell due Door mimics spawn randomly rather than in places doors would normally appear 09:36:16 Eronarn: OK, I'll let due know. 09:36:46 That way we can keep it up to date more easily and even run an experimental branch on CDO 09:37:27 oh hey, ignite poison is in morphology now too? <3 09:49:52 -!- Twilight-1 has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:50:15 -!- Twilight has joined ##crawl-dev 09:50:41 -!- Twilight is now known as Guest47032 09:56:27 new ignite poison feels pretty viable 10:23:33 -!- cw_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:33:32 -!- cw_ has joined ##crawl-dev 10:39:10 Eronarn: doors spawn randomly in the middle of nowhere sometimes eg lair / abyss 10:40:56 you mean, generated? 10:40:59 that is, non-mimic doors 10:41:07 yep 10:41:36 well, in case of lair, that's probably because levels get ruined after inappropriately placed doors are removed 10:42:11 so the ruination might create inappropriately placed doors, but those don't get removed 10:42:47 it happens in D as well sometimes i think 10:42:50 i've seen a couple of free-standing doors in early D, although, not recently 10:43:03 I think I've broken _check_doors at some point and fixed later 10:43:03 yes, i remember seeing it in D every so often 10:43:12 https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=503 (one of the first issues i reported, awww) 10:43:16 that might have been in 10:43:17 for example, a row of doors next to a wall 10:43:18 it* 10:43:25 that might be _plan_4 10:43:34 (chaotic city) 10:44:32 it sometimes places doors very crappily 10:49:32 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:53:29 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 10:57:38 03kilobyte 07recite * r65038090550c 10/crawl-ref/source/godabil.cc: Pass you as the attacker for recite holy word, so you get the xp (and mummy goodies). 10:59:52 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 11:02:12 -!- galehar has quit [Quit: Page closed] 11:14:38 -!- Neovanglist has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 11:18:43 -!- Neovanglist has joined ##crawl-dev 11:21:21 this was just a door in the middle of a room 11:21:24 it was quite obviously a mimic 11:28:17 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 11:30:55 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 11:54:32 -!- eith has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:55:05 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 12:05:52 -!- Giomancer has joined ##crawl-dev 12:07:41 <3 galehar 12:14:39 Lizard zombie (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3308) by Curio 12:47:54 valrus (L16 VpSu) ASSERT(item.base_type == OBJ_CORPSES && item.sub_type == CORPSE_BODY) in 'misc.cc' at line 150 failed. (Elf:2) 12:48:10 ruh roh 12:48:23 ??crash 12:48:23 crash[1/1]: If you crash, the savefile _right after you crash_ is what the devteam needs to try to diagnose the bug. If you can wait until raxvulpine (if playing on CAO) can grab that file, please do. Otherwise the devteam will not be able to replicate your bug. 12:48:56 turn_corpse_into_skeleton was called on something that isn't suitable 12:49:06 !lm valrus crash x=log 12:49:06 Unknown selector log 12:49:21 or how do you do it again 12:49:41 I can never get it right, can I 12:50:30 ??lm 12:50:30 milestone[1/4]: Milestone fields: v, cv, name, race, cls, char, xl, sk, sklev, title, place, br, lvl, ltyp, hp, mhp, mmhp, str, int, dex, god, dur, turn, nrune, urune, time, type, noun, milestone, game_id. game_id points at the game owning the milestone, to see the corresponding game use !lg * id=<1245>. game_id may be null. 12:50:45 what are you trying to do, exactly? 12:50:51 ??lm valrus crash 12:50:51 I don't have a page labeled lm_valrus_crash in my learndb. 12:50:55 !lm valrus crash -log 12:50:55 2. valrus, XL16 VpSu, T:49338 (milestone): http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/valrus/crash-valrus-20110127-184754.txt 12:50:55 oops duh 12:50:57 that 12:50:59 nice 12:51:10 The requested URL /morgues/trunk/valrus/crash-valrus-20110127-184754.txt was not found on this server. 12:51:11 hmm...? 12:51:17 wtfs 12:51:19 interesting 12:51:23 well, goddamn it, it usually works :P 12:51:34 !lm * uniq=ijyb -log 12:51:35 jejorda2, XL3 KoCr, T:2013: http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/jejorda2/morgue-jejorda2-20110127-184606.txt 12:52:12 there is http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/valrus/crash-valrus-20110127-184753.txt 12:52:14 it looks like that's the game end log 12:52:15 is that from a different crash? 12:52:25 it looks relevant enough, though 12:52:26 he probably has to die before that works 12:52:37 nevermind, huh 12:52:40 looks like the filename returned from -log is wrong 12:52:56 haha the skeleton warrior raised the corpse I was drinking 12:52:57 off by one minute 12:53:09 weird 12:53:25 valrus, that's just epic 12:57:11 put it on mantis 12:58:00 I am 12:58:07 I might just try to fix it myself 12:58:23 -!- blabber has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:58:41 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 13:04:55 Skeleton warrior raising corpse while Vp drinks, resulting in failed assert (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3309) by valrus 13:06:32 -!- monqy has joined ##crawl-dev 13:13:16 what is "mitm?" 13:13:34 not MiTm, by the way, I mean "mitm" that shows up EVERYWHERE in the code 13:13:40 an array 13:14:15 -!- blabber has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:14:45 defines.h:#define mitm env.item 13:32:02 wait, do friendlies not animate while you're butchering anymore? 13:38:06 not while you're hungry I believe 13:40:25 they don't animate at all if you're hungry and can eat corpses 13:40:39 but they also don't animate if you're in the middle of butchering, hungry or not 13:43:55 Zaba: using an orient for my orc:4 vault causes the layout to be the dungeon corridors one, can I prevent this? 13:48:47 You can use layout_foo tags, but I don't think there's one for the Orc bubbles.. 13:57:02 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 13:58:17 -!- ais523 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:05:04 -!- blabber has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:18:05 ribbit (L14 VpIE) ASSERT(stack.defined()) in 'misc.cc' at line 787 failed. (Lair:7) 14:18:17 ribbit (L13 VpIE) ASSERT(stack.defined()) in 'misc.cc' at line 787 failed. (Lair:7) 14:19:04 ribbit (L14 VpIE) ASSERT(stack.defined()) in 'misc.cc' at line 787 failed. (Lair:7) 14:23:09 Folks, it looks like that's one massively undefined stack of ribbits 14:23:59 Keskitalo: PLACE: xyz + ORIENT: foo forces rooms + corridors currently :( 14:25:01 If you can leave off the PLACE you get better behaviour, but lose your placement guarantee 14:26:01 DEPTH: + CHANCE: 100% approximates a placement guarantee and may be enough for st_ 14:26:41 would depth be Orc:4 like for place? 14:26:55 DEPTH: Orc:4, CHANCE: 100%, yes 14:27:53 !tell Zaba You should work on that idea to make more layout types compatible with primary vaults. 14:27:53 greensnark: OK, I'll let Zaba know. 14:29:16 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 14:29:21 -!- blabber has quit [Client Quit] 14:30:39 -!- Giomancer has quit [Quit: The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese] 14:35:55 ribbit (L13 VpIE) ASSERT(stack.defined()) in 'misc.cc' at line 787 failed. (Lair:7) 14:46:29 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 14:49:08 evening 14:49:08 due: You have 3 messages. Use !messages to read them. 14:49:12 !messages 14:49:13 (1/3) Eronarn said (6h 10m 15s ago): I just saw a trapdoor spider making disturbances 14:49:15 !messages 14:49:15 (1/2) kilobyte said (5h 14m 22s ago): toss in air elementals to the list of disturbing buggers 14:49:19 !messages 14:49:19 (1/1) Eronarn said (5h 13m 3s ago): Door mimics spawn randomly rather than in places doors would normally appear 14:49:45 hey 14:49:46 !tell Eronarn Re: door mimics. Yes, I know. It's onmy list. 14:49:46 due: OK, I'll let Eronarn know. 14:51:53 Okay, last day of linux.conf.au, time to head out! bye! 14:52:35 due: Early wakey! 15:02:22 how do I get my local dump file? 15:02:31 -!- bmh has joined ##crawl-dev 15:02:40 (on mac os x) 15:03:00 hiya 15:03:53 valrus: It's in ~/Library/Application Support/Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup/ 15:04:01 ok 15:04:18 Well, under morgue in that dir, but that's the general location 15:04:48 how can I tell which is the dump? 15:05:02 oh I guess it's the dateless one 15:05:08 It probably looks dumpish 15:05:18 hmm 15:05:24 -!- bmh has quit [Client Quit] 15:05:27 message history is not long enough 15:05:35 is there a way to get a longer one? 15:05:54 Reminds me of that thing where there are two action heroes beset by two villains and hero 1 says: "I'll take the ugly one!" and hero 2 says: "No, I'll take the ugly one!" and then "Which one's the ugly one?!" 15:06:24 There's an option to enable longer message history in dumps 15:10:37 Big flower tile (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3310) by Curio 15:24:25 ribbit (L14 VpIE) ASSERT(stack.defined()) in 'misc.cc' at line 787 failed. (D:14) 15:24:42 03j-p-e-g * ra355bbe33710 10/crawl-ref/source/ (tilereg-dgn.cc tilereg-msg.cc): Tooltip consistency fixes. 15:35:45 Crash when using Sublimation of Blood as vampire while holding only one potion of blood. (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3311) by ribbit 15:39:43 !vault zin_angel 15:39:46 Lines pasted to http://paste.scsys.co.uk/85248 15:40:15 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:40:17 the speech key is absent from this vault in trunk, was there a reason? 15:41:52 so there's this function: 15:41:53 bool is_being_butchered(const item_def &item, bool just_first) 15:42:06 and it's called like this: 15:42:07 const bool was_butchering = is_being_butchered(*si); 15:42:15 how's that possible? what about the second argument? 15:42:49 does it default to false? 15:43:29 valrus: A default value was probably specified in the function's prototype, most likely in a .h file 15:43:59 oh, it is 15:44:00 thanks 15:44:20 I thought the default value would show up in the cpp file too 15:46:40 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 15:46:41 no, that's a compile error 15:47:49 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 15:53:51 -!- stabwound has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:58:05 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 16:00:46 !tell due Your todo looks great. And we'll keep mimics, of course. Which means them not reacting to thrown stuff is the only way to go. 16:00:46 dpeg: OK, I'll let due know. 16:01:05 Why are we so worried about mimics and thrown items? 16:01:19 It seems like worrying about whether players wear top hats when playing Crawl 16:01:37 greensnark: if players can pull silly tricks and get off a bit better, they'll do. We won't let them. 16:01:49 It seems like a vanishingly unlikely thing though 16:02:03 In 4.0 you could just use 'x' to identify mimics 16:02:14 There was a comment in the code saying that was deliberate 16:02:16 And nobody bothered 16:02:30 greensnark: people were also happy to 'x' all plants in sight. 16:02:33 So I think this is a lot of worry over something that is extremely remote 16:02:54 People 'x'ed plants if they had reason to suspect an oklob because oklobs were dangerous 16:02:57 Mimics aren't 16:03:35 Mimics work on the assumption that they're something they aren't. If mimics are to be successful, they have to be dangerous melee monsters. If they are that, players are more likely to throw stones at features. 16:03:55 dpeg: I say wait to see whether the abuse happens 16:04:04 We use that approach for far more game breaking things :P 16:04:33 Why not fix it before it's broken? 16:04:52 dpeg: In that case there are far more game-breaking things to worry about as well :) 16:05:14 I agree it's a matter of less concern than the discussion makes it to be. 16:05:24 The only case where it seems likely that people will throw stones is if they already know its a mimic and want it to come to them 16:05:36 Just about nobody is going to sit around throwing stones at every random feature they trip over 16:06:03 greensnark: I'd have thought nobody is ever going to draw a maze by hand. Until a certain developer did in a game :) 16:06:04 that's arguably only because mimics aren't tough enough to matter 16:06:21 if it were relevant, throwing stones at portals would be done 16:06:56 and if mimics aren't dangerous they should be removed 16:06:57 Is the 'x' code to reveal mimics is still intact? 16:07:35 in my opinion the solution is to make mimics interesting somehow, then make them pretend to actually be portals until you step near them (ignore projectiles until revealed) 16:07:43 like submerged monsters work now 16:09:30 dungeoncrawl.org is mad interesting, btw 16:10:00 it includes insights like pop culture references and the fact that 'iskenderun' isn't the name of a person 16:10:10 For a moment I thought someone updated it 16:10:39 god no, that'll never happen 16:11:04 He's probably just waiting for NH 4.0 before he updates that page 16:11:07 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 16:11:47 I wonder if henzell knows how to contact brent 16:12:12 Brent doesn't maintain the site, so contacting him wouldn't help there 16:12:20 Don Brodale owns the domain and maintains the site 16:12:52 not regarding the site; I thought relicensing failed because Brent completely disappeared 16:12:56 whois reports an NJ Jersey City address, someone should go look him up :P 16:13:05 Oh, relicensing hasn't failed 16:13:25 We'll just call it GPL and when people complain we ask them for permission to relicense 16:13:32 :P 16:13:53 People who go beg for permission in advance have an exaggerated respect for legal wankery 16:14:03 Which is fine if they're employed by say, Google. 16:14:11 But for Crawl is just wankery 16:14:41 greensnark: so we'll just call it GPL in 0.8? 16:15:06 dpeg: kilobyte has the master scheme for relicensing; I think whenever the unicode branch is merged :) 16:15:36 I don't think there's much vintage code that we can't afford to lose, anyway 16:15:51 For instance I'd be glad if whoever wrote the original monster AI code sent us a C&D 16:16:05 So we could burn that code with fire and rewrite it :P 16:16:26 damn, now i wish when i'd replied to kilobyte's mail about relicensing i'd said "i agree to this legal wankery." 16:16:45 Haha 16:16:51 hahahaha 16:17:17 ;-) 16:17:42 but then someone has to write monster AI! 16:17:53 I bet we could get a volunteer or two 16:20:22 suddenly centaurs kite you 16:21:53 It'd be interesting to see just how big the diff between 4.0 and dcss is now 16:29:35 i think "git diff -C --stat 673bdae754:trunk/source master:crawl-ref/source" would give you a good idea (673bd is the first commit with code in it, as far as i can tell) 16:29:46 I'm using a blame to see unchanged lines 16:29:50 Running a bit slow though 16:30:28 I want to see what kind of high powered code has been collecting dust over the aeons :) 16:31:31 Looks like most of food.cc is vintage Crawl 16:31:43 !source food.cc 16:31:45 Lines pasted to http://paste.scsys.co.uk/85264 16:32:25 has the 'switch back from butchering' thing not been changed? 16:32:31 I wonder how long that's been buggy 16:33:51 // XXX This is a pretty dangerous hack; I don't like it.--GDL // Same amount of time as normal wielding. // FIXME: this duplicated code is begging for a bug. 16:34:12 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 16:34:25 Gordon Lipford sighting 16:34:56 gordon lipford? 16:35:06 is GDL 16:35:24 I bet the stairs_down and stairs_up functions are quite old 16:35:28 old dev? 16:36:05 Tiles crashes immediatly no error file. (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3312) by mavericx 16:36:05 Yes 16:36:32 Although if he's the same as the Gordon Lipford in http://roguebasin.roguelikedevelopment.org/index.php?title=Computing_LOS_for_Large_Areas, he must have changed his middle initial at some point 16:37:30 something like: for f in $(git ls-files | grep \\.cc$) ; do git blame $f | awk '$1=="673bdae7" { print $2 }' ; done | uniq -c 16:37:36 c is short for d 16:38:11 omg that's true 16:38:14 mind: blown 16:38:21 shop: [!] to examine items -> [!] to select items 16:38:31 i suggest s/select/buy/ 16:38:43 Napkin: good idea 16:40:54 oh, old behavior of = is back? 16:41:12 phew - that one was really tricky to get used to 16:41:27 @whereis Napking 16:41:27 No where information for Napking. 16:41:29 @whereis Napkin 16:41:29 Napkin the Destroyer (L15 DECj), a worshipper of Vehumet, saved on Lair:1 on 2011-01-24 after 55102 turns. 16:41:35 @Chojin 16:41:43 @whereis Chojin 16:41:43 Chojin the Cleaver (L9 MDFi) is currently on D:6 after 8045 turns. 16:41:45 Too many aliases :P 16:41:48 trunk :D 16:42:06 !won Napkin 16:42:06 Napkin has won twice in 664 games (0.30%): 1xHEFE 1xTrBe 16:42:07 wanted to play heavy armor - good chance to combine checking out trunk :) 16:42:21 nope, all tried died horribly :D 16:42:27 *tries 16:42:36 btw, how about we push the new GDR formula? 16:42:42 this is taking forever to run 16:42:45 ooh, player.cc has 1238 untouched lines! 16:43:06 Mm, >1kb 16:43:11 Er, >1klines 16:43:38 mon-pick is the only other one so far over 1k 16:44:19 galehar: I approve! 16:44:43 what new formula? 16:44:47 https://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=0AqvhLOPFHpiMdFNLVXlqMkM2a0V1V2hBQWZTNWN5ZEE&hl=en&output=html 16:44:51 cf wiki 16:44:56 C * (bAC-2)^(1/2) 16:45:09 elliptic suggested C=14 16:45:58 it looks pretty good to me 16:46:16 why only 10 thru 20? 16:46:34 it's not skill, it's just a constant 16:46:45 it doesn't depend on skill 16:46:53 oh the left is C 16:46:57 gotcha, that's confusing 16:46:58 yes 16:47:12 yes right 16:47:28 that looks nice 16:47:45 -!- Neovangl1st has joined ##crawl-dev 16:48:26 -!- Neovanglist has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:48:44 I fixed the table 16:51:11 So about 6.6k unchanged lines of code from 4.0 16:51:20 Not bad 16:51:29 The cleansing is doing pretty well 16:52:14 stone soup 1.0 should be released when every line is changed 16:52:42 greensnark: what's the total number of lines? 16:53:38 There's about 34k lines that git blame -w says hasn't changed 16:54:11 Throwing out blanks and junk like closing braces and deduping gives about 6.6k lines 16:54:28 Modulo any screwups here 16:55:51 i got a lot more than 6.6k.. 16:55:55 oh i didn't use -w 16:56:01 http://pastebin.com/ZeRiXZvA 16:56:20 never mind then 16:57:42 Ah, that filewise count is neat 16:57:52 mon-pick is definitely a blister 16:58:28 And there are other large blisters like mon-gear that have only been shipped off to separate files 17:01:49 Fossil lines of code: http://churnbox.com/crawl-fossils.txt 17:02:22 Although I haven't pulled recently, ugh 17:03:43 lots of lines that are just brackets 17:05:19 brackets never rust 17:07:38 "The following name was found in the hack.exe file of an early version of PCHACK - credit goes to its creator (whoever that may be):" 17:07:42 Guess the name 17:08:38 (it's not megabat) 17:10:58 pchack 17:11:04 wow 17:12:35 I believe Dan Brodale owns dc.org and wants to keep it as a kind of musuem to dc, I believe. 17:12:35 due: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 17:14:13 !messages 17:14:13 (1/1) dpeg said (1h 13m 27s ago): Your todo looks great. And we'll keep mimics, of course. Which means them not reacting to thrown stuff is the only way to go. 17:14:30 dpeg: Awesome. :) 17:16:26 due: greensnark said we're obsessing over mimics, but I am fairly confident he's already stockpiling stones to be thrown at hapless staircases during the tournament. 17:16:29 03galehar * rd3a42c7d00c5 10/crawl-ref/source/shopping.cc: Change "select items" to "buy items" in shop menu (Napkin). 17:16:41 03galehar * r387193d89d45 10/crawl-ref/source/ (player.cc shopping.cc): New GDR formula (Elliptic). 17:16:43 damn, I did this, just forgot to push :) 17:16:58 shopping.cc? huh. 17:17:02 due: dc.org as a museum is fine, but it could still have a link to the future. 17:17:08 ... 17:17:16 galehar: no sweat 17:17:56 why can't I find the declaration of item_def 17:18:00 the keyboard shortcut legend in a shop is totally different to the one in any other screen - so is the one from the skill screen. it would be cool if there was some consistency ;) 17:18:31 thanks, galehar :) 17:18:48 valrus: externs.h 17:18:54 yeah for some reason i always go for ? on the shop screen to examine the shop items because that's what it is in ^F 17:18:57 augh 17:18:59 thanks galehar 17:19:24 oh, i don't mean the shortcuts themselves - rather the legend below how they are shown to the player 17:19:59 make more consistent proposals! 17:20:29 This is work nobody wants to do, but everyone is grateful for it :) Anym did something similar when looking through monster glyphs and colours. 17:21:16 yeah, I can imagine 17:22:16 but maybe some wiki page to suggest style of further additions 17:22:27 ooh, so late already! ;> 17:22:28 Napkin: yes. Please =) 17:22:30 haha 17:22:31 g'night o/ 17:22:35 Nacht! 17:22:51 ultimate consistency won't be achieved (can't use ? for help in drop menu, for example) 17:22:52 Nacht :) 17:23:00 -!- pointless_ has joined ##crawl-dev 17:23:08 pointless_: hallo 17:23:19 pointless_: meow! 17:23:20 hi 17:23:28 !messages 17:23:28 (1/1) st_ said (3d 33m 23s ago): allies tracking you across the level is awesome 17:26:12 galehar: GDA vs CPM: HEAD^: 45 vs 60, HEAD: 42 vs 48 -- I'm afraid people will always pick the former again. 17:27:07 Elliptic said GDR has quadratic reward 17:27:25 so maybe it's ok 17:28:01 or we can boost CPM base AC... 17:28:03 I don't know 17:28:06 I have to sleep 17:28:10 'night 17:28:13 galehar: CPM gives a lot more AC 17:28:16 well bye 17:28:22 nuit 17:28:33 it's 11 vs 14, right? 17:28:40 base AC 17:28:43 -!- galehar has quit [Quit: disconnect] 17:28:50 crystal plate still looks sweet, people dont care about resists as much as they used too 17:28:54 is the bonus from skill, etc linear? 17:29:20 crystal plate mail is so absurdly rare that it's hardly a choice most games anyway 17:29:41 yeah... my current char has just 3 less AC in +2 CPM {+Blink rF+ Stlth--} than in +11 GDA 17:29:59 lol 17:30:07 :) 17:30:19 but that's the case for very high Armour skill 17:30:52 with shields, you hardly train it at all, and nowadays everyone uses shields 17:31:08 demon weapons should get looked at 17:31:17 people changed to not using shields since the heavy armour buff actually 17:31:34 even on a MDFi with all skills but Fighting and Armour disabled I had ~20 after Zot 17:32:12 kilobyte: armour training should be redone... this shouldn't be a complicated change 17:32:21 no, why? I'd say everyone used 2-handers in 0.5, 1-handers + shields in 0.6 since you needed to make up for lack of defense. 17:32:27 armour training still relies on the actual weight of the armour, doesn't it? 17:32:41 kilobyte: are you aware of my proposal? 17:32:47 which seems an odd way of doing it 17:32:53 TGWi: why? 17:33:35 they're so much better than the others, especially the trident and whip 17:34:26 TGWi: propose a nerf, we will listen 17:35:18 some weapon or other is bound to be the best of its type, why shouldn't that be the demon weapons? 17:35:26 dpeg: I'm afraid I don't recall it 17:35:38 what's the best short blade? 17:35:50 A: it depends 17:36:06 A: sabre of speed or something of pain 17:36:17 captain's cutlass? 17:36:20 with polearms it doesn't depend, your choices are 18/20 2h vs 14/14 1h I think 17:37:23 kilobyte: no problem. (1) Armour training should be much slower. There is no reason to make skill training artifically slow. The decision should come from the fact that xp is rare. (2) Armour skill should not be scummed, e.g. by empyting the pool with megabat. 17:37:30 18/7 vs 14/7, you're damn unlikely to have a bardiche/trishula before well into midgame 17:38:19 kilobyte: so I suggest that you train armour whether you take damage or don't but only if the incoming damage is sufficiently high. (And if so, be much more generous with training than now.) 17:38:30 if you have 26 weapon skill then yes, you can get some more base damage at the cost of a hand 17:38:32 ok, bardiche has one of biggest delays, so it's an outlier with 26 skill, forgot about that 17:38:42 -!- syllogism has quit [] 17:39:21 I'd put demon whip from 12/11 to 12/12 and buff the other polearms 17:39:26 kilobyte: the Armour training wiki has a formula, I think. Do you think the approach is feasible? No more dependence on weight, no more grinding. 17:39:38 "other" as in "not demon trident" 17:39:45 dpeg: yes, boosting big hits but taking away from tiny ones sounds like a good idea 17:40:19 kilobyte: is the 1.5h + shield delay penalty factored in after the floor? 17:40:36 demon trident's base delay is 13, so it should be 6 min delay 17:40:41 not sure if using a shield would take that to 7 17:41:11 nevermind, that's not how the penalty works 17:41:44 dpeg: I'd s/weight/base AC/ -- it'd be bad to train Armour well in a robe or leather 17:42:43 kilobyte: true... that could also be obtained by training Armour only on successful blocks of sufficiently high damage. (You won't get those in leather.) 17:42:53 where are the implementations of the functions in externs.h? 17:43:52 it looks like shield skill negates the 1.5-handed penalty? 17:43:53 you still get a good chunk from other armour slots, Ozocubu's, rings of protection, weapons of protection, ... 17:44:32 true... might be easier to go for an explicit bAC dependence 17:45:00 TGWi: yeah, it always did 17:45:03 ??shield[3] 17:45:12 shield[3/7]: You need 5/15/25 skill to eliminate speed, damage, and casting penalties for bucklers/shields/large shields for normal races, 7/21/- for kobolds and halflings, 9/-/- for spriggans, 3/9/15 for trolls, ogres, nagas, and centaurs. Shields decrease your ability to effectively use rods. See {shield leakage} 17:45:52 -!- pointless_ has quit [Quit: Reconnecting…] 17:46:09 -!- pointless_ has joined ##crawl-dev 17:46:10 valrus: if you're on linux or whatever go into crawl-ref/source/, do ctags -R . then go into vim and type :ts item_def or whatever and it'll give you a menu of all the places item_def is defined 17:46:47 so with a bit of shield skill you can use demon trident at 14/6 17:46:51 with a buckler 17:47:45 RjY: it only finds externs.h 17:47:48 buckler means very little shielding, unless you're a primary caster it's unlikely that's enough 17:48:11 relative to bardiche you're getting quite a bit :P 17:48:26 yes, compared to 0, yeah 17:48:32 yeah that's where item_def is defined thought right? 17:48:33 infinitely more 17:48:41 oh 17:48:43 I found that 17:48:47 it's a struct 17:48:55 but I'm trying to figure out where the implementations of its functions are 17:49:01 specifically, defined() 17:50:04 so :ts defined 17:50:24 oh I'm stupid 17:50:26 thank you 17:50:26 which tells me 17:50:26 3 F f defined items.cc 17:50:26 class:item_def 17:50:26 bool item_def::defined() const 17:50:34 so items.cc :-) 17:50:46 ah you have it now, cool 17:51:05 man that's super nice, beats the heck out of grepping every other minute 17:51:33 yeah, although grepping every minute can be improved too :-) 17:51:43 you do :set grepprg=git\ grep\ -n 17:51:54 then :grep and it works from within vim 17:52:18 uses the error list so you scroll through it with :cc, :cnext, :cprev etc. :cl for the list 17:52:38 ill 17:55:10 hmmm 17:55:20 It is kind of weird to have a DS with Ice mutation and fire breath 17:56:08 play trunk :) 17:56:25 it doesn't happen anymore 17:56:26 it lags 17:57:08 thanks for the tips RjY, by the way :) 17:57:16 but good to know I guess 17:57:29 * Zannick saw "greprpg" 17:58:55 !seen Cryp71c 17:58:55 I last saw Cryp71c at Mon Jan 24 16:16:03 2011 UTC (3d 7h 42m 52s ago) joining the channel. 17:59:27 is anyone officially managing DS mutations these days? 18:01:17 kilobyte: not officially, but MarvinPA is doing a good job. 18:05:05 woo, found a bug and fixed it in the same day 18:05:09 so, due to the inactivity of other DS guys, should I merge all MarvinPA's patches wholesale? 18:05:55 * kilobyte doesn't want to step on anyone's toes, and this is an area where there were active maintainers quite recently. 18:07:04 kilobyte: yes, I think that's a great idea 18:07:47 imo better to fix the simple stuff without too much waiting, there's a lot on the plate for .8 in an unfinished state 18:08:02 ds muts are something where they can be revisited later if something doesn't work out 18:08:57 Eronarn: these patches are all simple, unlike, say, your Zin changes (which should be ok to merge now, I think) 18:09:31 oh, neat 18:09:35 will be fun to see zin rates spike 18:09:44 let's get zin overpowered for 0.8 18:09:58 MarvinPA: the Demonic Guardian nerf is intentional, right? Seems significant especially for level 3. 18:10:23 60% chance to get puny 2s instead of 1s. 18:10:26 yeah, i think level 3 can definitely take the nerf 18:10:55 free executioners and balrugs just kill almost everything dangerous for a long time 18:11:36 This is late, but: ctags. 18:11:36 the 2s are still fairly hard-hitting in melee, obviously nothing compared to the 1s but a significant jump up from 3s i hope 18:12:06 valrus: Also, make doxy-simple and use the searchh function in html/index.html (JavaScript) 18:13:49 due: I had ctags already, I think 18:13:57 didn't know about doxygen 18:14:17 valrus: it's set up to extract all function definitions evne if they are undocumented 18:14:46 MarvinPA: did you check save compat? I mean the case when a DS has a breath mutation scheduled. 18:14:59 ahh, no 18:15:03 where does it put the doxygen binary? 18:15:31 i'm not sure exactly how to deal with save compatability for things like that 18:16:28 seems to work for me, false alarm 18:16:46 ah yeah all the mutation rolls are done on character generation 18:17:56 that's why I'm afraid of applying these patches myself -- no clue about DS 18:18:19 valrus: so it is actually very nice 18:18:40 valrus: make doxy-simple is just running the doxygen binary which generates html help files. 18:19:31 Okay time to head out. 18:27:59 -!- purge has joined ##crawl-dev 18:35:26 -!- eith has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:36:54 how does ash boundedness work 18:38:17 pointless_: there are three areas: weapon, armour, jewelry. For each of these, you get a level of boundness if more than a half of slots are cursed. 18:38:26 if the majority of slots of a type are bounded, you get what kilobyte said 18:39:15 this might be complex, but avoids the abuse of wearing 6 cursed armour slots to have free reign with amulets/rings, while still giving the player some leeway 18:40:38 not being able to, eg, flip rMut and rCorr in slime, or stasis vs an eyeball pan lord would be harsh and tedious 18:42:14 -!- pointless_ has quit [Quit: Reconnecting…] 18:42:33 -!- pointless_ has joined ##crawl-dev 18:45:31 03kilobyte * rfaf5f29ebf0e 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/ (7 files in 4 dirs): Restore the grassy floor tile to vaults which used it. 18:45:32 03MarvinPA * ree3bcd980927 10/crawl-ref/source/mutation.cc: Minor tweaks to mutation scheduling 18:45:32 03MarvinPA * rc026ebd740bb 10/crawl-ref/source/mutation.cc: Remove DS breath weapons 18:45:34 03MarvinPA * r0d6bc814c788 10/crawl-ref/source/mutation.cc: Wider choice of demonic guardians 18:45:34 03MarvinPA * rd882332dfe4c 10/crawl-ref/source/player.cc: Change DS exp apt to 150 18:45:40 03MarvinPA * re8f7617f021a 10/crawl-ref/source/ (enum.h mutation-data.h mutation.cc ouch.cc): Initial version of Powered by Pain 18:45:42 03kilobyte * ra8f3ca18f264 10/crawl-ref/source/enum.h: Fix save compat. 18:45:43 03thevalrus * rc3418104f913 10/crawl-ref/source/ (delay.cc delay.h mon-cast.cc spl-summoning.cc): Don't keep drinking from a corpse after it's raised! 18:45:48 03thevalrus * rc9b6edec0147 10/crawl-ref/source/delay.cc: Fixed crash when a corpse is raised from under a vampire drinking from it. 18:45:58 :O 18:46:43 Hm 18:48:33 -!- Guest47032 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:57:50 -!- pointless_ has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.13/20101203075014]] 19:13:22 03dolorous * r732872410fce 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/descript/monsters.txt: After much thought, add a description for unborn deep dwarves. 19:13:23 03dolorous * r285c6b05911a 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/descript/monsters.txt: Improve the vampire description a bit. 19:15:02 kilobyte: we discussed PbPain recently... it does not really seem to get weaker at higher level. 19:15:26 but playtesting will tell best, I agree 19:17:07 my idea would be to collect three numbers: total mp at mut lev 1, 2 and 3; resetting the totals at some time (like, when you gain an experience level) to keep the numbers meaningful 19:17:25 we can collect these even for non-DS, on all CDO games 19:17:35 my idea was to make the mutation independent of total mp 19:18:51 the current formula is roughly: if (d(damage) > mutlev*5) mp+=3d(mutlev*5) 19:19:02 MP gain does not depend on damage, say 3d(5*ML). MP gain if d(damage)>5*ML. 19:19:06 is what MarvinPA used 19:19:14 -!- evilmike has joined ##crawl-dev 19:19:33 so at mutlev 1 you get nothing unless you took more than 5 damage, at mutlev 3 it's 15 19:20:01 it'll probably need tweaking, yeah 19:20:06 but you also get less mp... 19:20:10 my feeling is that you take 5 damage blows more than three times as often as 15 damage ones 19:20:11 MarvinPA: hi! :) 19:20:26 hey :) 19:20:39 MarvinPA: moo! 19:20:47 er, meow. I meant meow! 19:20:55 heh, thanks for pushing the patches 19:21:42 but like that para on AC chars shout fest recently, this is something we can get actual data about 19:21:55 kilobyte: but it seems odd with if (d(damage)>5) mp+=3d(mutlev*5) 19:22:13 of course, the demanded damage could grow more slowly 19:22:19 mooo! 19:27:00 Looking up zombie or skeleton descriptions causes Tiles crash (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3313) by minmay 19:27:02 kilobyte: did you ever finish with the data-gathering you were doing the other day, by the way? 19:28:24 elliptic: the run with ac+ev over all games, right? 19:28:38 yeah 19:28:45 the script did finish but I didn't look over the results closely 19:29:05 even one line per game produced 70MB of data 19:29:44 fortunately I remembered to rm -rf Sebi/* :p 19:30:05 :D 19:30:08 yay sebi 19:30:10 that would speed it up, yeah :) 19:30:55 though of course we were mainly just considering xl>10 games so his startscumming wouldn't affect the results there 19:33:17 I'm surrpised rm Sebi* didn't get a "too many command line arguments". 19:36:02 -!- Twilight-1 has joined ##crawl-dev 19:37:41 kilobyte: try google refine if you haven't yet, it's pretty nifty 19:37:47 good for this sort of thing 19:39:00 due: just checked .bash_history, I did rm -rf Sebi (the directory), removing individual files would indeed hit that problem :p 19:43:00 -!- Twilight-1 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:43:17 -!- Twilight-1 has joined ##crawl-dev 19:45:54 elliptic: now this is very strange. In this run I included only games where the player was paralyzed at the moment of death (as opposed to just having paralysis in message history) (to get meaningful ev data), and the ac/ev death bias is nowhere that big (merely *~3). Lemme check if that's a factor of version or if indeed ev people tend to die after paralysis rather than during it. 19:46:30 -!- Mu_ has quit [Quit: Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place.] 19:46:31 I might make an error somewhere during one of the runs (or even during both), too. 19:47:08 that does sound strange 19:48:24 I'll edit the script to note both, and to count the lines of history as well. 19:48:46 taking a few hours is not a problem since it's 3am in my time zone anyway 19:59:24 03dolorous * r17ab41ceab44 10/crawl-ref/source/enum.h: Reorder the Powered by Pain mutation enum at next major version bump. 20:34:04 -!- paxed has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:35:22 -!- valrus_ has joined ##crawl-dev 20:35:26 -!- stabwound has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 20:35:39 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 20:39:19 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 20:40:11 -!- stabwound has quit [Changing host] 20:40:12 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 20:50:10 -!- stabwound has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:10:29 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 21:13:25 -!- stabwound has quit [Client Quit] 21:36:34 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 21:36:34 -!- stabwound has quit [Changing host] 21:36:34 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 21:37:43 Autoexplore/autopickup should never prompt you to ask how many items to pick up out of a stack. (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3314) by elliptic 22:08:32 -!- upsy has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:35:09 -!- Neovanglist has joined ##crawl-dev 22:35:09 -!- Neovangl1st has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:05:30 -!- valrus_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:20:59 So Ilsuiw died to one of her pack members 23:21:11 some strange combination of javelins of penetration and her own invisibility 23:21:14 I never even attacked her 23:21:15 Coool. 23:21:52 due, you don't consider that a problem? 23:22:01 No? 23:22:10 @??merfolk javelineer 23:22:11 merfolk javelineer (15m) | Speed: 10 (swim: 60%) | HD: 13 | Health: 67-87 | AC/EV: 0/14 | Damage: 16, 17 | Flags: amphibious | Res: 06magic(69), 12drown | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 1205. 23:22:16 They don't have sInv. 23:22:38 right 23:22:44 but it's kind of dumb 23:22:47 Why? 23:22:59 the prominent unique of the entire branch died 23:23:03 and I didn't have to do anything 23:23:06 So? 23:23:17 found a wand of polymorph in a wall (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3315) by mikee 23:23:18 would you still be cmoplaining if you'd confused one of the attackers and they'd killed her? 23:23:36 No? 23:23:46 Then why is this any different? 23:24:09 I had almost nothing to do with it 23:24:16 ... 23:24:47 okay, say a ragon breathes fire through invisible unique at you, unique dies. Is this any different? 23:24:51 *dragon 23:25:29 Dragons aren't guaranteed to spawn with uniques that cast invisibility 23:25:51 it's just a bit more peculiar in this case because her buddies killed her 23:26:16 It's more than peculiar, it is fairly likely given that she has the spell and her buddies can't sinv 23:26:41 a unique's pack shouldn't pose a substantial threat to them 23:27:15 Okay, so that is your actual issue? 23:27:34 I don't disagree. 23:27:55 @??ilsuiw 23:27:55 Ilsuiw (09m) | Speed: 10 (swim: 60%) | HD: 16 | Health: 150 | AC/EV: 5/18 | Damage: 10 | Flags: amphibious, spellcaster | Res: 06magic(149), 12drown | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 2583 | Sp: throw icicle (3d25), call tide, invisibility, blink, water elementals. 23:28:04 ilsuiw has high HP, I doubt this happens that often 23:28:24 and good EV to dodge the javelins, so they might hit you through her sometimes 23:28:25 Agree. 23:28:43 Another solution is to just drop her having invisibility. 23:28:58 As opposed to arbirtrarily giving her band members sInv. 23:29:03 Well, the perfolk hit pretty hard 23:29:07 does invis work for monsters in water? 23:29:25 EV doesn't help much against ranged attacks (unless it's different for monsters?) 23:29:31 18 isn't going to do much imo 23:29:43 EV helps plenty against ranged attacks 23:29:52 the javelineers do have pretty good accuracy though 23:29:55 not as much against melee 23:30:04 and yeah, they have HD and the fighter flag (I think?) 23:30:30 TGWi: Badly, but not sure how that affects to swimming monsters. But yes, all th emore reason we should just dump her having it. 23:30:45 yeah 23:30:55 she also doesn't sinv herself 23:31:06 so she kind of suffers a bit for casting it, doesn't she? 23:31:07 Neither do orc wizards. 23:31:10 ...no? 23:31:28 I thought invisible creatures take penalties in melee if they can't sinv 23:31:29 pedjt: only when meleeing, I believe 23:31:34 ilsuiw is not a meleer 23:31:38 right 23:31:40 there's a melee accuracy penalty for invis without sinv 23:31:43 that might even be player-only 23:33:13 well anyway, should I post this somewhere or no 23:33:36 Feel free to bug report. Ilsuiw should probably lose Invis. 23:35:30 aye 23:38:22 Penetration and Invisibility (Ilsuiw) (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3316) by Pedjt 23:39:11 "and i didn't get xp" :)))) I see 23:39:14 now everything makes more sense. 23:39:42 "crawl crashed" 23:39:46 "and I didn't get xp" 23:40:21 "crawl crashed and now i have infinite potions of experience" 23:40:23 (not any moooooooooooore) 23:42:12 -1 to Ilsuiw losing invis 23:42:32 eir threat would be reduced a lot by this 23:42:54 sorear: yes, well, i am slightly ambivalent in retrospect. it is a single-point issue, not a "ilsiuw gets killed by her pack a lot". 23:45:23 there are some other peculiarc cases (are they known?): monsters attempting to affect the player with something that always hits (like sleep) when another monster is in the way, monsters firing iood into each other, monsters firing iood into their own iood, and I may have even seen a lich walk into its own iood 23:45:45 iood is a different issue. 23:45:45 due, gimme mah gohdsammn xp 23:45:51 ah needs it 23:45:56 Pedjt: "sucks to be you" ;) 23:46:10 nooooo 23:46:23 is the first iood issue at all related to the issue that isn't about iood? 23:46:29 have some valuable IRL xp 23:46:30 not quite sure how monster targeting works 23:46:47 monqy: monster that do not see othe rmonsters that aare in the pathway is not an issue. 23:46:59 monqy: iood is unrelated to this. 23:47:04 I mean they saw 23:47:09 but they were dumb about it 23:47:19 kilobyte: ping? 23:47:21 well, hm 23:47:45 https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2280 like this 23:49:40 I forget the exact case I saw though 23:49:45 it was in 0.8 at least