00:01:33 wb Sequell 00:02:06 greensnark: was the issue due to napkin deleeting my erroneous milestone, or something else?/ 00:02:37 sanity check on this idea for swarms: use cloud struct, but add a new (property? variable?) containing a struct (can you even nest them like that...?) with the monster-y portion of their stats 00:04:45 Yes you can 00:05:00 You can nest structs inside of structs inside of struct. 00:05:16 -!- petete has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:05:18 But you'll hav eto adjust the cloud saving code to load and unload whatever monster struct you decide to store in it. 00:05:59 i didn't even think of that :O i just assumed saving was magic :( 00:06:14 "if oly" :( 00:06:31 greensnark: I'm apparently a sucker for punishment, but do you hate megabat as well? 00:06:33 are enchs automagically taken care of or do i have to go fix zin code 00:06:41 because i've never even looked at the save code 00:06:50 due: I don't hate it, but it does sound weird to me :) 00:06:51 ENCHs are automagically done. 00:07:05 greensnark: well, weirdness shall pass :0 00:07:06 *:) 00:13:55 Any doxygen wizards? 00:15:22 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:15:24 bhaak: around? 00:15:34 bhaak: I must be missing a step because doxygen isn't documenting a file. :) 00:19:46 oh 00:30:01 03due * rb0dace13a70a 10/crawl-ref/source/crawl.doxy: Doxygen: Set EXTRACT_ALL to YES. 00:30:04 03due * rf65600405fc8 10/crawl-ref/source/orb.cc: Doxygen: document orb.cc 00:30:09 03due * r402400e59353 10/crawl-ref/source/ (mon-death.cc mon-death.h): Doxygen: add documentation for mon-death.cc. 00:39:44 Ooh, docs! 00:42:12 greensnark: Can you document the noise stuff? Only you know how it works ;) 00:43:08 Argh, docs! 00:43:31 :)) 00:47:56 due: People are calling Green Deaths meganewts :P 00:48:09 We should rename them, clearly. 00:48:18 I think so too 00:49:09 I thought Cacodemons would be pretty good megageckos too, but megagecko sounds more dangerous than meganewt and that's the opposite of reality :( 00:58:28 :D 01:01:01 Hey, I just slew a megabat in single combat! Someone give me a cookie. 01:02:36 that should be a banner in the next tourney 01:02:43 (killed a megabat) 01:03:45 The Megabat Megabanner 01:04:25 <3 01:04:33 Call it the megabanter just for good measure. 01:11:17 * bhaak yawns 01:11:50 bhaak: I resolved my doxygen issue :) 01:12:09 great :-) 01:14:48 -!- Twinge has joined ##crawl-dev 01:17:28 bhaak: oes it cache results at all? It's still generating here :) 01:19:42 due: I don't think there's something like an "update" mode. because of caller and callee graphs, it would have to save that information somehow and AFAIK it doesn't do that 01:20:48 eek 01:21:00 Is there a way to specify "do not generate graphs just yet"? 01:21:52 I don't think so 01:22:32 it's just a big dumb C program. Things like saving state isn't easy to do in C :) 01:29:07 okay, so two config files then :) 01:29:20 crawl_quick.doxy, crawl_full.doxy. 01:30:14 crawl_sprint.doxy is obviously correct 01:30:45 greensnark: re. megageckos, have you seen Anym's caco not-splat? 01:31:07 No 01:31:23 !lg Anym cls=IE killer=Shadow_Fiend 01:31:24 1. Anym the Frost Mage (L9 GEIE), worshipper of Sif Muna, demolished by a Shadow Fiend on D:7 on 2007-10-31, with 3620 points after 8371 turns and 2:30:38. 01:31:37 Shadow Fiend lol. 01:31:41 ey was trying to train Summ with Summon Ice Beast 01:31:58 !tell Mu_ Normal build locally still has the speech key working properly. IDK any more :9 01:31:59 due: OK, I'll let Mu_ know. 01:31:59 And where did the Caco enter the picture 01:32:03 !lg Anym cls=IE killer=Shadow_Fiend -tv 01:32:03 1. Anym, XL9 GEIE, T:8371 requested for FooTV. 01:32:11 Well, ey summoned a caco first 01:32:24 So they tried to summon an ice beast again and got a shadow fiend? 01:32:28 And apparently thought it was a gecko due to font expirmentation 01:32:35 And fought it blindly 01:32:36 Haha 01:32:37 And won 01:32:59 Not so surprising. 01:34:09 Good fight, that 01:36:59 The joy of using git for work projects: you can always check the commit log to see whart you were doing one day. :0 01:38:26 I use that all the time actually 01:38:36 Because I have to do timesheets and crap now and then 01:38:40 s/git/any vcs/ 01:39:12 greensnark: but how will your employer know to pay you more for coding slowly if you use a VCS that doesn't track slowness? 01:39:43 Most of the places I've had to do timesheets don't actually pay by timesheet 01:40:13 The timesheet is just busywork that makes managers think employees are less likely to slack off 01:40:16 greensnark: Mine does. 01:40:38 my issues are not slacking off and more "omg not enough TIME each DAY to get EVERYTHING DONE AAARGH DEADLINES NOOO". 01:40:41 In some hourly-billing cases I did bill by timesheet 01:48:31 -!- TGWi has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:03:05 -!- Sequell has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:06:06 -!- Sequell has joined ##crawl-dev 02:20:15 -!- purge has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:31:33 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 03:07:05 -!- Zet has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:08:49 -!- Zet has joined ##crawl-dev 03:39:22 elliptic: I do like the idea of a mini-zig like trove. maybe it could keep the current fetch item idea. but give you the option of fighting the guards as well if you cant scronge up the required item. 04:05:30 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 04:35:00 -!- monqy has quit [Quit: hello] 04:35:12 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 05:20:44 -!- coolio_mc has joined ##crawl-dev 05:22:18 they definitely don't speak :( 05:24:43 Moin! 05:37:58 hello 05:38:08 Mu_: then it must be something about DGL + normal build :/ 05:41:30 but you believe me right.... 05:41:56 oh I do 05:41:59 ther'es a bug somewhere 05:43:59 ok ;p 05:44:08 it'll hav eto wait until tomorrow though 05:50:19 hey Mu? 05:51:11 I saw that your dgl account on CDO is not called "Mu" 05:51:42 which means your account is not enabled to enter wizard mode 05:52:41 would you like me to add the wizard flag to some other account of yours? 05:52:47 it's "itsmu" but probably don't need wizmode anyway ;p 05:53:02 it's your choice 05:53:08 just let me know :) 05:57:33 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 06:09:14 !tell ortoslon re: wesnoth, I'm proposing similar system here: https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=user:evktalo#weapon_type_damage_type 06:09:14 Keskitalo: OK, I'll let ortoslon know. 06:13:35 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 06:19:17 !seen Napkin 06:19:18 I last saw Napkin at Sun Jan 23 11:53:08 2011 UTC (26m 10s ago) saying just let me know :) on ##crawl-dev. 06:19:23 moin David :) 06:19:26 Hi! 06:19:35 hi dpeg 06:19:47 good point about teaching the system 06:19:50 hey Eino :) 06:19:54 I get annoying "Script stopped working" prompts on the forum now (didn't get them before). 06:19:55 and critical hits 06:20:01 Could this be because I have two "foes"? 06:20:07 hi Marc :) 06:20:12 Keskitalo: should I add comments on your page? 06:20:20 yes please! 06:20:24 will do 06:32:28 wrote a long reply to KoboldLord about item identification 06:32:40 ...must stop teaching players, they don't listen anyway 06:32:50 I have come to believe that many of them can't read. 06:34:19 not that i'm aware of, dpeg 06:34:25 will add you as my foe :> 06:34:37 what browser did you use, dpeg? 06:35:03 dpeg: Could write essays on the blog and link to them! :> 06:36:10 i'm not getting that error.. just the posts are hidden by default with the message "This post was made by dpeg who is currently on your ignore list. Display this post." 06:37:05 Ignore, really? :D 06:37:20 * Napkin whispers: just for testing * 06:37:57 yeah, have him on my ignore list for ages! always starting flame wars and making players furious.. that dpeg guy ;> 06:38:19 But there's two people who have dpeg on ignore on the forum, really? I find that hilarious. 06:38:31 hehehe :D 06:39:30 geez, I really hate sourceforge's grey-listing... 06:45:30 you are right that some people have very poor reading comprehension, but that's just what you get on an internet forum 06:46:06 for what it's worth, I've posted on a number of forums and the tavern is actually unusually high quality with what is posted there, and it's better moderated than most. Being small helps. 06:56:48 evilmike :) 06:59:21 03eronarn * r7f003c60520c 10/crawl-ref/source/ (3 files in 3 dirs): Minor flavor change: gateway to "the ashen plains of" Gehenna. 06:59:25 03kilobyte * ra39cdc689be0 10/crawl-ref/source/ (3 files in 3 dirs): Use "ashen valley" rather than "ashen plains". 06:59:26 03kilobyte * r4e4ea318c429 10/crawl-ref/source/tilepick.cc: Add missing tilepicks for lurking horrors and ancient zymes. 07:03:05 back 07:03:08 Napkin: Firefox 07:03:25 what version? and script related addongs? 07:03:28 *addons 07:03:39 because i can't reproduce 07:04:06 it might be unrelated to the "foes" 07:04:27 It's Firefox 2.0.0.6 which is probably ancient :) 07:04:44 uh, yes, i will have trouble reproducing ;) 07:05:48 haha 07:05:52 don't worry, Marc 07:06:41 upgrade! :D 07:06:45 right... I recently mocked my brother for using ancient Firefox (3.6) but then he pointed to me that 4.0 I've been using for a long long time is not yet released :p 07:07:06 lol 07:07:25 wtf, acvar has been warned for https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=8&p=3776#p3776 07:07:32 s/wtf/btw/ 07:07:43 but then... having Crawl compile with gcc-4.6 which hasn't been even branched off yet is an important task 07:07:45 Invisibility disturbance glyphs can appear on top of known monsters (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3274) by MarvintheParanoidAndroid 07:08:00 definitely, kilobyte :D 07:08:15 damn, my long reply to Koboldlord didn't appear :( 07:08:31 oh.. back button? 07:08:38 or landed on second page? 07:09:20 don't know, had to rush to join lunch 07:10:09 that'll teach me to just not do that anymore :) 07:10:17 hehe 07:10:36 it was a very elaborate posting 07:10:38 btw, if you are afraid of upgrading, you could also try out an alternative browser 07:11:50 yes, I sometimes use konqueror 07:11:57 well, Chrome is made of suck 07:11:58 oh, I am not afraid... just too lazy 07:12:25 try chromium instead of google chrome? 07:13:02 yeah, I often say chrome when I meant chromium. Not sure how big a difference there is between the two, though. 07:14:30 according to debian's package description chromium does not contain google's usage-tracking stuff 07:14:54 !tell due We need to do something about players hitting rocks at features in order to discover mimics. What about those mimics being completely immune to anything but melee? 07:14:54 dpeg: OK, I'll let due know. 07:15:59 that's mean.. non-melee chars will not stand chance then 07:17:10 Napkin: awesome mail, many thanks 07:17:35 :) 07:19:23 perhaps just unknown feature mimics? 07:19:56 it's strange that you can pass through a shop, but if you can do that, you should be able to do the same with a fake one 07:20:28 kilobyte: oh, if you're next to the shop mimic, it should bite imo 07:20:46 it should just make no sense to throw rocks at the shop in advance 07:22:37 dpeg: how is this any different from throwing rocks at item mimics? 07:23:47 elliptic: not at all, but that will come later 07:23:55 okay 07:24:05 it is strange that a shop takes no space at all 07:24:31 elliptic: I am slowly typing up the "onwards to 0.8" mail. Would you mind if I add your nick as an item "Troves (elliptic, dpeg)"? 07:24:40 kilobyte: sure, but gameplay>realism 07:25:09 kilobyte: do you remember which vault Nadeen got stuck in? 07:25:22 dpeg: sure, I was actually working on troves a bit earlier today :) 07:25:43 yay 07:26:27 one of new monsters I pondered about is a "chompy skull" on a chain that attacks by lunging at you (moving slowly normally, very fast during the attack but not being able to manouver). The block the chain is attached to would suffer from the same problem as shops... 07:26:48 dpeg: not a vault, a regular part of the dungeon separated by a secret door 07:27:39 item mimics teleport away which is sort of different i guess 07:28:10 item mimics can't follow you, so ranged attacks would mean free kills 07:28:44 I've always been a bit puzzled by why item mimics and feature mimics are so different 07:28:55 kilobyte: ah... the new tutorial explains this a bit 07:29:53 elliptic: I think due started with the idea that being chased by a door (or a shop) is insanely hilarious. Whereas item mimics are more standard stuff. We can harmonise at a later stage, and probably should. 07:32:53 Underwater monsters create disturbance glyphs nearby (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3275) by MarvintheParanoidAndroid 07:40:47 those stair mimics are really harsh 07:41:25 you are trying to escape because you are low on health.. 07:41:41 maybe stairs mimics could behave differently? 07:44:10 !lg * killer=~mimic s=killer 07:44:13 57 games for * (killer=~mimic): 49x a mimic, 4x a shop mimic, 2x a trap mimic, 2x a stair mimic 07:47:43 !lg * killer=~mimic start>20110101 s=killer 07:47:44 2 games for * (killer=~mimic start>20110101): 1x a shop mimic, 1x a stair mimic 07:49:07 shop mimics still make me laugh when i see them 07:55:08 there is an interface screw: since recently, mimics ignore glyph overrides even when known 07:55:33 h 07:55:48 ah... will have to be ironed out for 0.8 07:55:50 this is especially painful in guardian naga vaults: you don't know which items are mimics and which are real items 07:56:22 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 07:56:23 too bad, when I mentioned this to due, he argued that "a door should always be a door" 07:57:06 tiles do show a mimic tile though, with the feature mimicked only partially shown in the background 07:57:47 they also still override unicode glyphs, right? 07:57:51 yes 07:58:09 although that's sort of the opposite problem i guess, still looks ugly though :P 07:58:31 kilobyte: is this something that due should do, or does the problem lie somewhere else? 07:58:38 charset shouldn't matter -- you should be able to define "mon_glyph : door mimic = I" just the same 07:59:19 dpeg: for me, it's an obvious and annoying bug, for due, it's "important for flavour". So I'm not sure what to do. 08:00:01 -!- cw_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:00:19 okay, so the problem is that mimics don't respect charset rules? 08:02:27 the only thing about charset is that CSET_UNICODE's default for portals is not \ 08:03:17 So the real issue is about whether a known door mimic should look like a monster or like a door? 08:03:33 so it was visible with default... but specifying a glyph for portals would trigger the same 08:03:36 yeah 08:03:57 But a camouflaged door mimic will look like whatever my doors look like? 08:04:10 yes, should at least 08:04:48 kilobyte: okay, without any glyph fiddling, how would you differentiate between item/door and known item/door mimic? 08:04:49 there's still (if I recall correctly) a bug where having different glyphs for enter_volcano and enter_icecave would reveal the mimics 08:05:03 I'd suggest a branding. 08:05:11 oh huh, door mimics do exist 08:05:18 i've never actually seen one in game, do they spawn? 08:06:45 I've never seen them either, so I doubt they spawn 08:10:25 sorry, family came to my place 08:10:35 branding could be good 08:11:04 for me, just override working would be enough, but then, having it work by default would be important too 08:12:46 with bad terminals, there's no way to use a glyph to show both the original and a marking (like an umlauted >) 08:27:04 -!- evilmike has quit [] 08:27:24 i think it's a pity, that mimics turn to "mimic" instead of the former "the spear of destiny mimic" 08:28:35 good point, the name has plenty of space to convey the flavour, unlike the glyph 08:29:07 03kilobyte * rc14d43918706 10/crawl-ref/source/ouch.cc: Fix use of freed memory (JoachimSchipper). 08:29:39 yeah, it bothers me that it is impossible to tell the original name of an item mimic after you discover it to be a mimic 08:31:05 not that it matters any more than "ring of regeneration" being a "notched ivory ring" 08:31:39 does a mimic of a "mace of draining" get the draining damage? 08:31:55 no, just the look 08:32:12 ah, ok.. well, then it's not important.. but it would still be cool 08:32:25 you wouldn't know the brand of the item being mimicked anyway 08:32:31 unless with ash, perhaps 08:32:38 well, sometimes I get confused when I see an item that might be useful, and then it reveals itself as a mimic while I am fighting some other monsters (maybe with summons), and it seems that the original item has just disappeared 08:33:13 I can usually figure out "oh, that mimic there must have been the unknown potion I saw a minute ago", but it is a bit annoying 08:33:21 i just loved the "The scroll of BAFA BDSD hits you." :D 08:33:31 agreed, elliptic 08:34:57 also if you see a mimicked "gluggy yellow potion" in the midgame when you have most potions identified, you can generally assume that "gluggy yellow" is something good and rare 08:35:53 so you can figure out which scroll is probably silence, or whatever 08:36:06 not that it's actually that worthwhile but hey 08:45:21 -!- casmith789 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:45:47 -!- casmith789 has joined ##crawl-dev 09:25:11 -!- TGWi has joined ##crawl-dev 09:28:03 -!- upsy has joined ##crawl-dev 09:32:02 -!- eith has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:38:33 03kilobyte * r8b98058cb57b 10/crawl-ref/source/invent.cc: Don't care about inscriptions when trying to remove cursed items. 09:38:44 03kilobyte * r1cacd72452d2 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/descript/spells.txt: Update Tukima's Dance description as it works on staves now. 09:55:19 -!- cw_ has joined ##crawl-dev 09:56:59 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 10:25:20 just back, entertaining three kids over here 10:25:34 little time... could one of you suggest the item thingies somewhere? 10:29:59 item --> mimic, sorry 10:43:53 Staff of Enchantment still named... Staff of Enchantment (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3276) by Niveras 10:54:55 !seen minmay 10:54:55 Sorry dpeg, I haven't seen minmay. 12:01:25 -!- MarvinPA|2 has joined ##crawl-dev 12:03:19 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:15:01 -!- petete has joined ##crawl-dev 12:31:48 03j-p-e-g * rbbb9ae0b4769 10/crawl-ref/source/ (directn.cc misc.cc misc.h tilereg-dgn.cc travel.cc travel.h): Allow mouseclick movement through exclusions and stationary monsters. 12:31:59 03j-p-e-g * re8bf7076d45c 10/crawl-ref/source/ (4 files in 2 dirs): New tutorial lesson covering gods. 12:32:53 dpeg: what do you think about orc:4 vaults that have no loot but guaranteed shops? 12:40:10 -!- monqy has joined ##crawl-dev 12:48:16 do trolls turn to stone now or something? 12:50:38 ...what? 12:51:45 I was checking the knowledge bots and the troll tile was all grey, which I think suggests new monster mechanics or something..? 12:54:47 @??troll 12:54:47 troll (07T) | Speed: 10 | HD: 7 | Health: 24-52 | AC/EV: 3/10 | Damage: 20, 15, 15 | Flags: regen | Res: 06magic(28) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 304. 12:54:59 @?troll 12:54:59 troll (07T) | Speed: 10 | HD: 7 | Health: 24-52 | AC/EV: 3/10 | Damage: 20, 15, 15 | Flags: regen | Res: 06magic(28) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 304. 12:55:34 um, here http://crawl.develz.org/info/tile.php?q=troll 12:56:34 oh, no idea what's up with that 12:57:06 'iron troll' comes up with the same one, maybe it's buggy? 12:57:48 oh, I get it, it can't handle custom, vault-specific monsters 12:57:58 http://crawl.develz.org/info/tile.php?q=gnoll 12:58:01 http://crawl.develz.org/info/tile.php?q=human 12:58:05 for example 12:59:21 http://crawl.develz.org/info/tile.php?q=archer%20statue weird 13:06:10 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 13:07:30 -!- MarvinPA|2 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:09:43 back 13:09:46 !seen st_ 13:09:46 I last saw st_ at Sun Jan 23 18:32:53 2011 UTC (36m 53s ago) saying dpeg: what do you think about orc:4 vaults that have no loot but guaranteed shops? on ##crawl-dev. 13:10:58 st_: still around? 13:11:04 yeah 13:11:24 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:12:30 st_: I approve. 13:12:44 I had a similar idea on my own... there could be even mall vaults, with more than one shop. 13:12:55 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 13:13:20 st_: so go ahead :) 13:13:33 alright, I'll try and do some 13:14:36 I really like it that sometimes Orc (and Elf) become more attractive, when you're missing something basic (like a resistance) and hope for a shop. 13:14:53 The Elven Malls 13:15:59 :) 13:17:01 It's easy: go in the mines to dig for some gold, then spend it all at the malls 13:43:43 hmm.. could it be, that invisible monsters are not shown in the tiles version (0.7)? 13:43:55 ermm.. when reading a scroll of fog, I mean 13:45:15 Napkin: could be a new bug due to the invisible glyphs 13:45:26 no, my dad is playing 0.7.1 13:45:41 he was fighting invisible maurice and i suggested to use the scroll of fog 13:46:06 but even though maurice stole something, i couldn't see any disturbance in the fog clouds 13:46:49 maybe maurice has moving behavior like unseen horror and stepped out of the fog clouds quickly again? 13:48:20 I think the bastard is blinking. 13:48:37 i did see the teleportation cloud, yes 13:48:46 though not sure it was about the fog cloud 13:48:58 anyways, just wondering 14:09:56 10 large vaults (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3278) by minmay 14:09:56 Game no longer prevents player from drowning via stopping levitation (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3277) by minmay 14:25:30 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:30:13 -!- syllogism has quit [] 14:32:09 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 14:39:06 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 14:41:59 -!- edlothiol has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:42:51 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 14:48:19 hilarious comments on megabat on SA 14:48:36 -!- edlothiol has quit [Quit: edlothiol] 14:50:26 but seriously, though, 'Megabat' !? 14:52:56 Just assume for a moment, that Crawl megabats had been invented by some grumpy old man ten years ago.... You'd say wtf!? once, file under "aussie humour" afterwards and go on. 14:53:04 It only feels so strange because it is new. 14:54:15 Humour is hardly negotiable... Jude came up with this, and we let him. It does get rid of one "giant", and it is a slightly subtle joke because few folks know that Megabat is an actual term. So what? :) 14:54:44 I don't think there's anything wrong with the name, I just don't tihnk it really fits such a wimpy monster... megabat reminds me of stuff like megashark or, um, ...megaman? idk 14:55:14 don't attack too much importance to this 14:55:18 *attach 14:55:25 being playing roguelikes for too long =) 14:56:42 coolio_mc: would you prefer microbat instead? they are real also! 14:57:05 haha 14:57:26 elliptic: regarding trove stuff, I think it's fastest if we bounce mails 14:57:34 dpeg: you know, if you let every dev have a pet monster, we will soon have turtles in crawl 14:58:14 Eronarn: that's okay... we already got those snapping things that way. I just forgot which nerf I got in that deal. 14:58:44 remove fruit types in return for megabats 14:58:48 :P 14:59:21 MarvinPA: when I lost the battle against the fruits once more (was the second time), I pushed for Fedhas :) 14:59:28 dpeg: btw, if you have a way to get in touch with dolorous, the zin patch could use a yes/no for whether it can be committed (pending code review) 14:59:33 heh, fair enough 14:59:58 Eronarn: drop me a quick mail with the concern, I'll relay to dolorous. THanks! 15:00:39 MarvinPA: now, I would still like to axe pizzas, but when I suggested that developers would veto who weren't seen (on c-r-d or with commit) for over a year :) 15:00:54 haha 15:02:25 MarvinPA: so guess why it wasn't trainign invo 15:02:47 why not? 15:03:23 oh yeah that reminds me to try it again, i downloaded it and applied it to a branch locally, worked fine this time 15:03:44 because the practise() function, which calls exercise(), never gets called for abilities that trigger a delay - because a delay moves you on to your next turn, and the normal code path never gets run :D 15:04:06 hurrah :P 15:04:07 recite is just the only ability, afaik, that both takes a delay and trains something 15:04:19 it's also now the only ability that has two cost flags (delay and breath) 15:10:17 -!- CIA-113 has left ##crawl-dev 15:19:40 -!- Hehfiel has joined ##crawl-dev 15:20:30 -!- ortoslon has joined ##crawl-dev 15:20:44 Eronarn: thanks, relayed 15:26:48 Eronarn: is having no mp cost on recite intentional? 15:26:56 i forget whether the last version of the patch was like that 15:27:32 MP cost seems unnecessary 15:27:49 plus it caused silly things like priests of zin having recite but being unable to use it 15:27:54 probably, since it has the breath timer too 15:27:59 just wondering, really 15:28:15 priests of yred have that at xl1, yeah 15:28:25 sort of weird for both cases 15:28:56 -!- edlothiol has joined ##crawl-dev 15:29:00 yeah, i removed the MP cost 15:29:02 and the piety cost 15:29:04 MP cost is only really needed when you want to prevent spamming of something (which is true for spells, but not for all invocations) 15:29:14 breath + delay is a pretty big pair of drawbacks 15:29:22 it has the breath timer to prevent spamming so yeah, should be fine 15:29:27 especially because now the delay will only stop if you are harmed >50% life 15:30:24 huh, i just got my breath back the same turn recite ended 15:30:42 how do people feel about daze, btw? (20% chance to fail acting every time a monster acts) 15:30:46 MarvinPA: probably just a very lucky roll 15:31:07 seems like it should last at least 1 turn though :P 15:35:43 beautiful new maps by minmay 15:35:50 Keskitalo: do you want the damage type differentiation to encourage fighters skilling in several weapon skills? 15:36:17 MarvinPA: i think it's a 1d500 or something ridiculous 15:36:29 more encompass vaults for D is cool 15:37:06 ortoslon: m/f, polearms, and staves support multiple damage types already 15:37:13 so would short/long if they were merged 15:38:05 Eronarn: daze is better than paralysis :) 15:38:20 ortoslon: not sure that Keskitalo is around right now. 15:38:28 ortoslon: are you reading his own wiki page? 15:38:32 yes 15:38:39 secret agenda page 15:38:51 Eronarn: fwiw, I am against merging SBl and LBl. 15:39:49 dpeg: what about making the skills a little bit more interesting? like having some str and dex options for each 15:39:51 bah, zin should prompt when you try to chop up red corpses 15:39:59 Eronarn: make it so :( 15:40:07 meat cleaver = str-weighted sbl; rapier = dex-weighted lbl 15:40:45 as it stands sbl feels pretty wimpy and is not really fun to rely on 15:41:01 Eronarn: I am more concerned about SBl actually. LBl is just another generic fighter skill. But SBl clearly has a role: Stabbing. And I support removing the Stab skill. 15:41:29 I like the idea of fully merging sbl with stabbing too 15:41:58 what would you do with aptitudes? take the average of two? 15:42:25 monqy: yes, you could interpret it like this, but instead of giving "moves" their own skill, I'd rather link them to weapon (types, not necessarily skills) in a meaningful way. That's why I want to keep SBl and remove Stab. (And while you can stab with everything, SBl would be best.) 15:43:13 what skill would you train when you stab with a mace? 15:43:46 only M&F? 15:43:49 i guess it'd work okay if stabbing depended solely on which weapon you were stabbing with, and sbl skill innately boosted this for all sbl weapons 15:44:10 though i'd also like to see ways for non-spellcasters to stab more often 15:44:17 maybe weapon + dex 15:44:21 maybe move some of the stab damage bonus to a chance to distract before each attack 15:44:28 ortoslon: good idea 15:44:34 so your stabs are less instakill-y, but you get them a lot more often than right now 15:44:55 Eronarn: that's another idea somewhere on the wiki: high Dex should give you more "mini-stabs" 15:51:17 dpeg: i would like to see something like this: 15:51:20 -str always boosts damage 15:51:22 special move with dex that yellow-brands enemies if you step around them 15:51:25 -dex always boosts to-hit 15:51:31 not sure if it's feasible, but perhaps there'll be a time when it's good for a high Dex character to take a turn moving around a target 15:51:45 -weapon effects are based on weapon stat weightings, which no longer affect anything else 15:52:04 TGWi: I guess we mean something similar 15:52:08 :D 15:52:43 TGWi: it's a long way though... need something like Sidestep as a first piece (that's the defensive half of dancing around the target) 15:52:50 TGWi: DanceRL 15:52:57 so a sbl's secondary effect is distracting, and is boosted by dex, but also boosting str can help you with raw damage output (but having high str is never bad for your use of a dagger, only if it comes at the cost of your dex) 15:53:18 oh, that reminds me... I always wanted dancing dancing weapons. Implementable! But no time to write it up :( 15:54:15 dpeg: halls should come with a stealth modifier then: as long as you dance together with the weapons, they don't notice you :) 15:54:17 Eronarn: but why does distraction have to be an effect of the dagger? I'd say it is a function of Dex, and then daggers are best to exploit the mini-confusion of enemies. 15:54:24 ortoslon: <3 15:54:35 "You do the waltz in tune. Everyone is happy." 15:54:51 if you tukima in blade, your weapon should start dancing 15:55:27 You clear your throat and prepare to recite Apostates 21:43. 15:55:30 "And Zin did decree that he would protect the people..." 15:55:30 _You kill the orc! 15:55:31 str/dex weightings make my head hurt. obvious solution: axe Dex, leave Str and Int :P 15:55:34 :o 15:55:44 (i hadn't poisoned him or anything) 15:56:15 dpeg: i think that daggers should inherently do it; perhaps being evasive in general also does it, but someone with a mace doesn't really get much benefit from distraction-stabbing 15:56:26 MarvinPA: maybe you cleared your throat with an accidental breath attack 15:56:32 may as well limit it to where it's useful 15:57:28 Eronarn: we agree on the major bit, the rest is details... 15:57:52 MarvinPA: it would work with "...the _righteous_ people..." (or "good" etc.) 15:58:18 ortoslon: I see where you are coming from, but I really hope that it is possible to fill three stats with meaning. 15:58:29 i think there must be a missing message somewhere, i'm assuming that was a kill from zin smiting? 15:58:34 MarvinPA: yeah, probably 15:58:59 maybe the orc died before i could print a message from it or something 16:00:30 mon->hurt(&you, 7 + (random2(spellpower) * 33 / 191)); 16:00:30 (degree == 2) ? simple_monster_message(mon, " is smitten by the wrath of Zin.") 16:00:33 : simple_monster_message(mon, " is blasted by the fury of Zin!"); 16:00:36 my guess is i need to reverse the order or something 16:00:59 probably, yeah 16:02:07 wait, no, that can't be it... hmm, i'll have to mess around with it 16:02:15 i may need to change how it's calculated anyways 16:02:47 right now zin hates orcs because they're beogh worshipers, because the cutoff is set at 2 for smite effects 16:03:00 1 = atheist, 2 = other god, 3 = priest of other god 16:03:29 probably just making 2's non-convertible (when/if conversion comes), and boosting the 1-level effects, is enough for them 16:03:47 it is good if Zin is useful early on against orcs 16:04:36 dpeg: well, it would still be useful - confusions, paralysis, etc. - the issue is that right now zin will smite/deafen/etc. run of the mill orcs 16:04:45 this is probably excessive 16:05:33 "Zin ignores the puny orc. "*MORTAL, CALL ME WHEN YOU ARE READY TO NOT JOKE*"" 16:08:23 for a god who forbids demonspawn worship, this level of pettiness isn't uncharacteristic 16:10:22 Eronarn: the fact that Zin would care more (likely) about orc priests is also good. 16:10:41 * dpeg has a hunch that Zin and Beogh don't get along too well. Although you can never know with leader types. 16:11:30 they are both messianistic religions. There's no worse evil than a follower of a competing one. 16:11:50 yes 16:12:33 but history shows that the guys behind the concepts can understand each other very well 16:12:40 that's why we have Beogh marked as "evil" -- since the only place that cares or defined goodness/evilness are the "good" three 16:13:11 linley's making a new game http://forums.tigsource.com/index.php?topic=16704.0 16:13:20 Quick idea: what about s/good/holy/ everywhere? 16:14:17 dpeg: yeah... Polish neo-nazis (Poland über alles) have good relations and share knowledge/supplies with German ones, even though the latter consider Slavs to be under-humans 16:15:25 kilobyte: for example. Although some neonazis (more, but not only on the Slav side) point out that Slavs belong to the indo-european (they'd probably say indo-germanic) peoples as germanic ones do. 16:15:45 When things turn a corner and attack you between your turns, it seems to say, "It bites you." or whatever, rather than naming the creature. Is this intentional? 16:15:49 And old nazis have trouble comprehending the new alliances. 16:15:53 in Crawl, the good three don't seem to hate third parties more than their official enemies, though 16:16:24 I was suggesting "holy" instead of "good" because that's how we use it. Don't we? 16:16:28 Pedjt: don't know 16:17:01 we do, except that would cut into our supply of synonyms and make messages repetitive 16:17:13 it's a theme-vs-exactness thingy 16:17:38 yes 16:18:05 it is most important with "good gods" or "holy gods" 16:18:23 really, every god is "holy" 16:18:47 TGWi: good point 16:18:48 self-described "unholy" gods are fantasy nonsense 16:19:34 imo "good" is better, because it's a subjective term and "holy" is objective 16:20:00 actually, you're right. Even Satanists don't declare themselves "evil", at least in LaVey's version. 16:21:12 * dpeg listens to Gaahlskagg's "I am evil" :) 16:21:36 s/evil/blasphemous/ 16:21:48 sure, was just joking 16:22:46 ok, right, some musicians do 16:23:27 well, rock'n roll is all about the image, and black metal is no exception 16:23:30 I'm still looking for an established (ie, >100 worshippers) religion which does, can't think of one yet. 16:23:56 kilobyte: this isn't real life, it's fantasy 16:24:10 in fantasy, there are moustache-twirling evildoers who gloat about how eeeevil they are 16:24:18 kilobyte: even the KKK would call themselves most holy, right? 16:24:37 * dpeg carefully strokes his moustache. 16:24:40 it's better flavour to have 'realistic' evil 16:24:43 we can use both the good-and-evil-are-subjective from reality, and the good-and-evil-are-actual-things from fantasy 16:25:02 -!- CIA-57 has joined ##crawl-dev 16:25:07 good and evil are actual things, but purely determined by the whim of some random guy in a golden throne in the clouds, who is not any more powerful than other gods 16:25:18 so good and evil are subjective 16:26:03 Eronarn: looking at this, one would presume that in the geneology of (Crawl) gods, one of Z, E, TSO came early... early enough to lay down the terminology for the whole pantheon (and even world). 16:26:31 dpeg: KKK used burning crosses not as a symbol of destroying the cross, but as putting it aloft with glorious light 16:26:46 fighting the "evil black plague" 16:26:51 basically don't have gods that are like "evil unholy kill death blood destroy burn torture" 16:27:08 I didn't think about that, but it makes sense. They do consider themselves faithful Christians. 16:27:31 TGWi: that removes half of our divine powers :) 16:28:15 heh 16:28:16 dpeg: not sure about that... generally, all old religions don't claim other gods are false, only newcomers (as in, not earlier than 2.5k years ago) do 16:28:30 although for a Jewish or Arab craftsman/peasant at Jerusalem, crusaders must have been not much different from a follower of Makhleb or Trog :) 16:28:59 like, Judaism says "don't put other gods above me" rather than "other gods don't exist" 16:29:30 kilobyte: there's a difference between denying other religions (first with Christianity... and I know the early sources acknowledge more than the later ones) and calling some other religions evil 16:29:37 kilobyte: yes, exactly 16:29:44 Romans actually built temples and made sacrificies to gods worshipped by their enemies 16:29:53 that's culture! 16:30:13 denial doesn't really factor into crawl because the gods have more obvious roles in the world 16:30:19 so that those gods wouldn't help the enemies that much 16:30:41 kilobyte: silly, but really cute 16:30:47 tso isn't about "mahkleb doesn't exist," he says "that guy is a dick" 16:30:54 TGWi: yes, I know 16:31:13 TGWi: solipsism god 16:31:32 in Greek or Norse or Egypt mythology all gods are aware of each other 16:31:42 even if some of them don't get along well 16:32:48 dpeg: how will Lugonu interact with due's abyssal horrors stuff? become more lovecraftian, or remain unchanged? 16:33:54 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:33:57 kilobyte: are spriggan monsters good enough for 0.8? 16:34:05 dpeg: so does early Yahveh with gods of neighbours 16:34:25 Eronarn: no idea... I just want players to be able to desecrate altars. 16:34:40 Which will work under any theme, I assume. 16:35:25 dpeg: I think so... I'm going to finish up assassins and add air mages (there are no conjurer types, airstrike would work great in forest paths), but these are additions rather than changes to existing ones. 16:35:34 cool 16:36:30 balance should be mostly ok, and they are already used in three Sprints so drastical power shifts are out of question 16:41:49 kilobyte: would you remove the xp boost for Ash? 16:42:20 oki too kthx :D 16:43:40 ortoslon: don't ask me about Okawaru :) 16:45:34 i've just thought you have forgotten about him :) 16:46:42 Never. Everytime I go to sleep I pray for Okawaru's self-destruction. 16:47:18 ortoslon: but AC being in such a poor state I was in no position to harm Okawaru. 16:56:49 dpeg: not at this moment, we'd have to add something in return 16:57:59 kilobyte: I know. But players are playing the wrong Ash right now... 16:58:13 I hope to get better ideas if they're not "take Ash for the xp as long as that is possible" 16:58:19 reskilling is mostly convenience (if you plan ahead, you can get the same with victory dancing), and monster detection has quite little use -- especially with being limited to LOS even with great piety 16:58:30 kilobyte: you can also tell me to just come up with a return, and I'll do that 16:58:46 sure, what would you suggest? 16:58:56 kilobyte: but monster detection uses your four tiers now, right? 16:59:04 the xp boost isn't brokenly good anymore at least, just uninteresting :P 16:59:10 and reskilling is a bit more than convenience (flexibility). 16:59:46 MarvinPA: it was not a problem with the boost, just a bug with reskilling. You'd get that xp even with xp boost removed. 16:59:58 right, yeah 17:00:08 kilobyte: yes on above? 17:00:18 kilobyte: monster detection was very good even before you added in tiers 17:00:25 ash still has issues with scrying and summoning through walls i think 17:00:32 and cloud spells going through walls 17:00:48 summoning through walls happens anyway 17:00:52 that's a different issue 17:00:57 right, likewise cloud spells 17:01:01 ash just makes it worse 17:01:04 the problem with removing the xp boost for ash is that then there is very little reason to curse your equipment 17:01:30 elliptic: yes! 17:01:36 that's the replacement that is needed 17:01:40 okay, so the tiers are in (which will matter imo= 17:01:42 I don't have any good suggestions though :( 17:02:03 The following is crude, but bear with me. Recall that we want something that is visible and strong. 17:02:52 dpeg: in 0.4, we had people use Fire/Conj magic early and Earth/Conj late on. Nowadays, even Pois is not outright useless (Poison Arrow). 17:03:43 so needing flexibility _mostly_ means you planned poorly 17:04:00 just "mostly" because you can recover that Pois and Hexes 17:04:18 kilobyte: I see what you mean, but you can play much more freely (strategically) with Ash in your back. 17:04:24 kilobyte: and put everything into air for early tornado? :) 17:04:48 for a caster, Ash is really good (when it comes to making use of spells) 17:04:49 elliptic: that's a problem that can be fixed with a single commit :p 17:04:50 elliptic: after keeping it around long enough to survive to the point at which you could get tornado 17:04:56 which is overdue too 17:05:41 Napkin: re: your email, tthanks a bunch for all the awesome stuff you do. 17:05:41 due: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them. 17:05:48 also, hi, at linux.conf.au! 17:05:50 !messages 17:05:50 (1/2) greensnark said (1d 17h 22m 57s ago): Shrieking orb <3 <3 <3 17:05:51 !messages 17:05:51 (1/1) dpeg said (9h 50m 57s ago): We need to do something about players hitting rocks at features in order to discover mimics. What about those mimics being completely immune to anything but melee? 17:05:53 the other main use I see for reskilling is training up fighting skill on casters 17:06:05 you could just do that painfully with victory dancing 17:06:10 dpeg: Yes, good point, I will put something on my todo. 17:06:35 training up fighting skill by actual use is dangerous though on squishy casters 17:07:06 Cursed shield: oncoming projectiles have a chance of piety/600 to harmlessly drop to the ground. 17:07:12 Cursed weapon: nothing (one cursed slot from a single item is good enough) -- although we could rule that killing things with a cursed non-edged weapon might sometimes chop up them. 17:07:16 Cursed ring: A chance of piety/900 that a damage spell duds "on the ring". 17:07:21 Cursed amulet: piety/600 chance that a hostile enchantment does not affect you. 17:07:32 can't you jsut memorize a weak summoning spell and attack that to skill up safely 17:08:25 Mu_: okay, but it still takes a lot more time and will also train other skills at the same time 17:08:27 elliptic: we have learnt that one problem is how skills peter out (whereas Fgt does not, for example), but Ash is not to blame. He's just the carrier of the message. 17:08:40 whereas reskilling just trains fighting alone 17:08:54 ye 17:09:12 elliptic: what if you attack them while wielding a banana 17:09:14 i seemed to suck at abusing ash/reskilling though he seemed ok to me 17:09:24 dpeg: I don't think that's the issue I'm trying to describe... the point is just that with reskilling it is a no-brainer to raise fighting skill to 10 or so 17:09:27 Mu_: you shouldn't abuse :) 17:09:41 monqy: you'll be training dodging/armour/shields from it attacking you still 17:09:54 oh right 17:09:55 also I think you need to do damage to train fighting 17:10:04 (so use a longbow or something) 17:10:17 at least turning skills off works better now too 17:10:41 03kilobyte * r394d2265e058 10/crawl-ref/source/spl-data.h: Make Tornado Conj/Air. 17:10:43 03kilobyte * r897ebf5882e6 10/crawl-ref/source/spl-tornado.cc: Don't make Tornado drop as sharply in non-open areas. 17:10:46 wha 17:11:01 elliptic: well, there was also a discussion what Fighting is good for... and whether that could be improved (I think it can, and I don't think Ash should be cancelled because of Fighting training... we could always make Fgt reskilling more expensive for now, the interface makes that very clear). 17:11:12 < nht> RIP Tornado 17:11:15 kilobyte: is ring of flames still carms/fire? 17:11:18 sure, fighting reskilling isn't a serious problem 17:11:19 elliptic: looks like you were right :p 17:11:32 kilobyte: on nht? 17:11:43 < Narretz> dman, I should have tried it while it was cool 17:11:44 just an observation of what people use it for 17:12:19 Never listen to (generic) players when it's buff/nerf time. 17:12:40 You can watch them so see what to nerf, but for everything else, you need players who grasp balance. Players we have here =) 17:12:40 players, including myself, jest a lot, as I see it 17:13:32 monqy: reading SA, I sometimes feel that a well-placed nerf is as good as a well-placed needle in a voodoo doll :) 17:13:51 SA seems pretty pro-nerf lately 17:13:56 that's true 17:14:03 they're on medication or something 17:14:13 anyway, any comments on the Curse Foo suggestions? 17:14:15 they didn't even complain about megabats :P 17:14:22 They did! Loudly!! 17:14:25 megabats were a nerf 17:14:31 of the game's credibility 17:14:44 nah they just made jokes ;p 17:15:07 to someone not knowing about the RL species, they sound like something from a bad japanese game 17:15:11 Everyone's complained about megabats :) 17:15:21 * due digs heels re: megabats, fyi. 17:15:42 due: I really like it that our Aussie dev continues the fine tradition of awkward humour installed by the Aussie originator of the game. 17:15:57 due should reimplement the robots or whatever was in zot 17:16:38 got to sleep soon... please reply on Curse Foo :) 17:16:39 i quited like the guy who said ''I would like the name Megabat to be reserved for an early game unique bat with alarming physical strength/size.'' 17:16:46 dpeg: :D! I'll take that as a compliment. 17:16:52 bikeshed >>> content :) 17:17:12 due: absolutely, meant as such 17:19:34 -!- herself is now known as herzzolf 17:22:37 dpeg: <3 thanks for the vote of confidence over the "ew megabats" :) 17:22:51 now for my next controversial act, i will make venom weapons poison corpses! 17:23:00 :( 17:23:32 make them only poison megabat corpses 17:23:34 if it's worth anything, I'm not upset about megabats, but they make extremely good joke fodder 17:23:43 This game has many developers and many more players. It becomes nigh impossible to add silly/humourous (two sides of the coin) bits. The only way to do it is to go ahead, shake off the mud slung at you. If it's too bad, silently revert a year later. 17:23:53 dpeg: Exactly. :) 17:24:00 dpeg: I hadn't realised the humour in megabats, but hey... 17:24:13 it is more silly than just "bat", agreed? 17:24:24 * dpeg is sad nobody talks about Ash + curses. 17:24:46 oh, of course 17:24:53 but "megabat" is a scientificname as far as I'm concerned 17:24:59 it is a million times sillier than "bat" 17:25:03 so i just accept it as such rather than examine it and go "oh hey, actually, it's pretty silly". 17:25:04 (see what I did there?) 17:25:08 TGWi: :p 17:25:44 due: yes, I also liked "ballistomycete" right away. Crawl has a small tradition of pseudo-scientific stuff, so why not have an instance on D:1? 17:26:00 ballistomycete doesn't sound like a joke 17:26:05 but is one!!! 17:26:14 TGWi: which is why it's so hilarious. 17:27:53 kilobyte: these Curse Foo ideas are nowhere written up. My wife has PhD defence tomorrow and I got to sleep. If you think it's decent enough to replace XP boost, copy them or tell me to do so. 17:28:55 (The proposal is crude because in many cases the player does not care whether the goblin's hit is a dud... I can work around that, if desired.) 17:29:18 especially cursed shields seem to hugely promote 1-handers 17:29:36 since we can't have Ash give great AC 17:30:08 but such details can be fixed 17:30:35 kilobyte: can also subsume shields under cursed armour pieces if that's better 17:31:05 to be honest, for what it's worth, I don't think in-combat boosts really mesh well with ashenzari, but this is probably just my own personal vision of a genral div god speaking 17:31:28 yeah, this this is the root of the problem 17:31:29 monqy: tbh _plus_ fwiw ==> dismissed! (joking) 17:32:28 I disagree, naturally. All of Ash is based on the assumption that cursed items are better, when you look at it from the correct (twisted) angle. Since the only items you can curse are armour pieces, weapons, jewellery, the effects proposed aren't so farfetched. 17:33:10 What I like about the proposal is that it tells you directly what the cursed items are good for. Now, there are two trains of thought: (1) keep the curse battle effects even for tiny attacks (the goblin), so as to show how often it happens; (b) restrict to attacks where it matters. 17:35:57 would doubling the effect of cursed items be too overpowered for Ash? probably would 17:36:58 dpeg: i already posted my proposal 17:37:01 and a small bonus like x1.2 isn't very visible or strong, or fun 17:37:35 -!- petete has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:38:06 we could also go halfway, to be safe 17:38:14 kilobyte: how? 17:38:37 Eronarn: but you also kept telling me that reskilling is somehow inherently broken, something I don't understand to this day. 17:38:40 both a small xp bonus and other boosts. So even if the boosts fail, the god is never worthless. 17:39:39 Eronarn: CIA is sleeping on the job, even though I pushed my recite changes in two commits (CIA never reports creation of branches). 17:40:03 reskilling is less interesting than eronarn's proposal imo 17:40:06 I didn't finish that, but I went with code (rather than functionality) review. 17:41:03 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 17:41:09 so it'd be good if you made further changes atop of that version -- or at the very least, atop of your patch rather than amends to it 17:41:48 dpeg: reskilling is not a good god mechanic; if you can use it too freely it trivializes the game (stuff like early game => poison magic, then abandon i all later with no penalty), but if you can't use it freely, you'll rarely want to use it at all (because most characters don't need to abandon their skills) 17:42:08 I wouldn't say "inherently broken" but manipulating experience itself is messy and doesn't create the same choices that manipulating levels do 17:42:32 if it's not making characters' skill distributions strictly better than they were before reskilling, there is almost 0 point to using it, and if it is strictly making them better, that's going to have very unpredictable and hard to balance effects 17:42:54 see the discussions about changing skills just because now people can reach levels with ash they couldn't before 17:43:07 I don't get it. 17:44:10 What does it trivialise? Sure, it will create different choices than a different proposal, but it does create choices. 17:45:49 I have played Ash in a very naive way (wasn't even aware of the xp boost), and I have felt the choices. I have probably killed one guy by reskilling too early (or too much). 17:46:00 dpeg: think of it in terms of character fitness: current characters progress through skills in way X. if ash lets you switch from X-polearms to X-swords, this is in practice not that interesting on most characters (it rarely will be, but this is the exception). if he lets you take progression Y that would normally be unfeasible (because it requires abandoning a skill once it becomes irrelevant), your character's fitness goes up... and at that point, who woul 17:47:18 cuts off at who woul 17:47:34 being able to swap from using Firestorm to using Icestorm is fun for a laugh but it isn't actually an interesting god ability; being able to start with poison magic or whatever and then dump it when it's no longer useful actually affects progression (it's not just changing flavors of X, but actually impacting the way you gain skills prior to you ever reskilling, just because you plan on reskilling later) 17:47:41 'who wouldn't want to do that to coast through whatever part of the game? 17:48:15 Eronarn: poison is useful... When you really part with some skill, you _lose_ something. 17:48:24 That poison skill was good for something, you killed with it. 17:48:41 poison eventually stops being useful 17:48:42 dpeg: you killed *early game* stuff with it; it rapidly becomes less useful with the number of runes you have 17:48:57 monqy: yes, but you need enough power somewhere else to make up. 17:49:02 skills being unbalanced relative to each other at various points in the game is fine, if you can't go back on your choices 17:49:10 now, you can 17:49:12 dpeg: you'd need that power even if you kept poison magic 17:49:13 eronarn: perhaps you would have a better feeling for reskilling if you actually played a game with a non-bugged version of it 17:49:31 there is another price: the god slot 17:49:48 I agree with eronarn in principle but I'm not sure how well it works in practice 17:50:11 elliptic: i'm not going to keep playing a god i don't like to confirm that i still don't like it 17:50:26 eronarn: well, your arguments seem really theoretical and vague to me 17:50:26 Eronarn: but then don't tell me how the god sucks, okay? 17:50:49 and am of the opinion that ash wrath at least in part scale with how much a player has used reskilling 17:50:51 dpeg: have you tried octopodes yet? no? 17:51:09 a generic disliking is fine by me, I've never ever played Hu/Mu/Gh... but I have played Ash. 17:51:18 i've played ash too 17:51:19 dpeg: play a ghoul, they're great 17:51:29 Eronarn: no, and I never said "that won't go in". I made more cautious comments. 17:51:33 i just am not continuing to play ash because the god hasn't changed much 17:51:38 and i didn't enjoy it any of the previous times i played 17:51:59 is reskilling really why you don't like ash, though? 17:52:24 elliptic: no, reskilling is just a part of it - i'd actually be fine with reskilling existing somewhere in the game, i just think it isn't a good god ability 17:53:13 i don't like ash because of weirdness with how cursing works, lack of interactive abilities, lack of use for piety, feeling like "atheism+" 17:53:28 The plan was to have a god (for 0.7 even) who provides the Div spells removed in that version. It's not so easy (cf monster/item detection), but the resulting god is good for something. 17:53:45 There are players who asked for less active gods. 17:54:07 less active is fine, i just think ash is too less active 17:54:16 different strokes etc. 17:54:20 related to ash: how large is the chance that you awaken a sleeping monster (or get noticed by a wandering monster) the turn you step into its LOS? 17:54:37 i'm asking because i think that passive monster detection doesn't play well with autoexplore 17:54:43 varies based on a number of factors, but it's the same as the chance of it waking up at any other time 17:54:46 With Ash, you have the curse mini-game, the reskilling macro-game, and additional tactical information. 17:54:55 ortoslon: depends on lots of factors, surely 17:54:57 ortoslon: yes, that is noted on the wiki page 17:55:03 ah great 17:55:13 the only one of those that i find actually enjoyable is #3 17:55:31 idea: the highest tier of detected monsters pauses autoexplore 17:55:39 the curse minigame is counterintuitive and annoying, and right now, it doesn't provide good feedback about its benefits 17:55:44 if you can look at the curse mini-game from an abstract pov, it is unique 17:55:53 also, automatical weapon id is a huge relief for me 17:55:59 never found it fun 17:56:01 i've already elaborated on my issues with reskilling 17:56:14 TGWi: would you add to the Ash wiki? 17:56:19 (need to identify a weapon by use, that is) 17:56:23 the tactical info is fun but in practice you almost always just end up fighting the monster the same way unless you're a gimmick passwall stabber or whatever 17:56:24 silence and detected monsters and monster halos should definitely pause autoexplore 17:56:33 there's a mantis issue for it already i believe 17:57:11 Eronarn: I had so many complaints about stuff I/we add to the game. Yes, you hate Ash with a passion, for a number of reasons. It's okay. Some of us think the god is different, flavourful and useful. Also okay. 17:57:38 i am hardly the only person to have this kind of feedback about ash 17:58:11 You should have seen how many players told me that a god using fruits cannot possibly work. 17:58:19 I believe in the god, and we'll see. 17:58:25 i wouldn't hold up fedhas as an example of a success 17:58:29 in Ash we trust 17:58:32 :) 17:58:34 I think reskilling could be okay as long as worshiping ash is a good enough price. Ash wrath should have permanent downsides (like skill drain), imo. 17:59:02 monqy: perhaps not permanent, just severe enough, yes 17:59:23 monqy: i don't think this is interesting unless ash is the only god with such severe wrath effects; in practice most characters won't want to switch gods anyways 17:59:40 except for stuff like t1 tso abandon or whatever 17:59:47 and the gradual transfer seems like it'd hamper a good lot of use cases I don't like 18:00:08 no wiki page for autoexplore :O 18:00:18 added it, dpeg 18:00:19 ortoslon: that's true -- make one! 18:00:24 TGWi: just saw, many thanks 18:00:32 one thank will suffice 18:01:43 does GDR need to be affected by armour skill? from what I hear armour is good for the first time in two versions and it's just more tweaking 18:01:57 armour already affects AC and every penalty armour has 18:02:04 armour skill, that is 18:02:29 Eronarn: I have designed the Trog changes, Lugonu, new Nemelex, the Elyvilon changes, Beogh, new Zin and helped design Fedhas, Cheibriados, Ashenzari. Not all of these are successes, but if we compare with the old gods, then I am confident that I know something about gods. 18:02:56 TGWi: it was my idea to make GDR independent of Armour skill for 0.6. 18:03:15 TGWi: and I thought I had good reason... but galehar's tables look good. Did you see them? 18:03:20 currently GDR is independent of armour skill, this seems fine to me... have people been talking about changing it? 18:03:24 looking now 18:03:58 https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:misc:defense#gdr_based_on_armour_skill 18:04:06 and the spreadsheet is linked there 18:04:34 "With the current formula, lucking out on a early plate mail trivialise half the game" 18:04:41 this is pretty much nonsense IMO 18:04:55 dpeg: yeah, still trying to parse the spreadsheet 18:05:16 the "new: (bAC - 2)..." one is galehar's proposal? 18:05:38 yes 18:05:51 is that b supposed to be a d? 18:05:57 I don't like it, no need to nerf armour again 18:06:07 it is only barely good now 18:06:15 you should reply there asap 18:06:26 monqy: base AC 18:06:29 oh 18:06:32 elliptic: especially as you can bring actual feedback on the table 18:07:09 elliptic: for 0.6, I good warnings about the AC/EV system, but it was too late. 18:07:32 Once everything is coded and thought to be complete, it is much harder to unwrap stuff. Please reply! 18:07:45 good==>got 18:08:56 has GDR changed that much from 0.5? 18:09:01 will try to reply, I'm not good with wikis though :/ 18:09:12 it looks like the main difference is that 0.8 has medium armours nerfed 18:09:13 TGWi: yes! 18:09:48 plate and GDA went from 50, 50 to 40, 45 18:09:50 I wasn't around for 0.5 but I also gather that 0.8 armour grants less AC 18:09:59 syllogism teached me that GDR was basically a red herring (and I tried to turn GDR into something that helps differentiate light/heavy armours for 0.6) 18:10:21 GDR is significant if you have a lot of it 18:10:25 meanwhile ring mail went from 50 to like 5 18:10:30 TGWi: I believe that GDR is now also applied in a more encompassing way 18:10:33 10 18:10:34 60% GDR on CPM is noticeable 18:10:54 -!- coolio_mc has quit [Quit: Try HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <-] 18:11:07 tgwi: you only had 50% GDR on ring mail in 0.5 if you had 21 armour skill or something like that 18:11:07 whatever though, not going to complain 18:11:13 didn't play armour even when it was good 18:11:16 the formulae don't tell you about some capping (iirc) and against what attacks GDR sees use 18:11:42 well, the table has the caps on there 18:11:48 every number below a certain point is 50 18:11:49 https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:interface:autoexplore 18:11:52 unless you meant another cap 18:15:52 but yeah, galehar is proposing a straight nerf to armour and I'm pretty sure that's not what you want 18:19:54 um, how do you view edits to subscribed pages on the wiki? 18:20:15 ortoslon: not entirely sure. 18:21:28 ah, it just sends emails 18:22:11 how straightforward 18:24:13 -!- MarvinPA|2 has joined ##crawl-dev 18:24:19 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:24:27 -!- MarvinPA|2 is now known as MarvinPA 18:27:37 03due * rdb65e1ae0464 10/crawl-ref/source/makefile: Doxygen: remove the generated directory for distclean target. 18:27:45 03due * r09e30df47b24 10/crawl-ref/source/ (crawl.doxy crawl_all.doxy crawl_simple.doxy makefile): Doxygen: Split crawl.doxy into "simple" and "all" options. 18:31:21 elliptic: you're going to comment on GDR? 18:31:30 yeah, writing a comment now 18:31:35 else I'll !tell galehar, but it'll be more vague... 18:31:37 ah, thanks 18:32:01 is the casting formula change still on the table? 18:32:33 why? 18:33:25 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: sleep] 18:33:31 -!- edlothiol has left ##crawl-dev 18:39:30 because just curious 18:42:22 dpeg: okay, commented 18:44:30 Eronarn: yes 19:01:22 Sacred scourges have the wrong strength weighting. (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3279) by elliptic 19:11:25 Spellcaster ghosts not using spells. (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3280) by Twilight 19:11:43 -!- purge has joined ##crawl-dev 19:12:45 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:48:27 -!- Mu_ has quit [Quit: Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place.] 19:48:44 03dolorous * r080ea8181132 10/crawl-ref/source/fight.cc: Fix Mantis 3279: Make sacred scourges dex-weighted as other whips are. 19:48:49 03dolorous 07recite * rf5d8380c98b4 10/crawl-ref/source/ (godabil.cc godabil.h mon-info.cc): Clean up the routine to create Zin's pillars of salt. 19:52:31 03due * r8ad3dbc13fbf 10/crawl-ref/source/show.cc: Fix #3274: don't show invisible monsters on top of monsters; document. 19:58:49 dolorous <3 19:59:32 due: that does pose an interesting question: what happens when there is a crowd of invisibles around? 20:00:06 dolorous <3 20:00:15 if you just randomly choose a tile to make the disturbance in, you might get A B and C all trying to place a disturbance in the same... place 20:00:15 is recite getting put on cdo? 20:00:30 which seems odd if there are 3 disturbance-causers around 20:01:02 it might be better if, if one went to place and there was already something there, it tried again until it found a spot 20:01:10 Eronarn: it doesn't try again 20:01:37 Eronarn: it's simplistic at the minute though 20:01:44 TGWi: not immediately afaik - the code still needs to be reviewed, there is a LOT of it. and dolorous is doing a few edits to it too 20:02:08 but hopefully not as long as it has been 20:12:49 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 20:20:24 lads, megabats? seriously? ;p you know im not one to complain about changes but this is wierd :p 20:22:03 they're real irl 20:22:51 if eith complains about a change it's a sign that something is wrong 20:22:54 ok, so its not as ridiculous as it sounds, also, im drunk 20:46:19 could we not call them fruit bats maybe? i really think megabat gives the wrong impression 20:46:32 i suppose that makes no sense for them to be attacking you then... 20:47:39 "bat" works fine 20:47:44 and everything attacks you in crawl 20:55:56 incl. yaks, sheep, etc. 20:57:09 "The fearsome dungeon fruit bat's fangs evolved to pierce coconuts, but your skull will do nicely, too." 20:57:15 :D 20:57:58 call it bat and put that in the description 21:01:25 put that in the vampire description except replace skull with neck 21:01:41 and coconuts with blood oranges 21:02:00 then swap blood oranges and necks 21:02:37 we should have a function that determines whether a monster has a neck 21:02:44 so that we can have an executioner axe special message 21:09:34 you cut off the monster's head! vs you cut off the monster's proverbial head! 21:13:28 03dolorous 07recite * racb68e679945 10/crawl-ref/source/godabil.cc: Further clean up the routine to create Zin's pillars of salt. 21:14:03 Eronarn: has dolorous actually agreed to look at the patch? 21:14:29 -!- eith has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:19:40 sorear: uh, the branch in that last commit is the patch, so... 21:20:12 TGWi: but what if we introduce living proverbs as a monster type 21:22:37 hey is napkin around 21:30:25 Eronarn: Oh, awesome, just CIA not reporting the first cinnut 21:31:25 cinnut? 21:31:32 commit 21:31:50 right hand misregistration 21:32:16 Ive written out whole sentences like that before, its kind of interesting looking 21:32:35 i wish i could just assume that things said here were typos, having to look up new terms on wikipedia eats into my real-work time 21:44:00 03dolorous 07recite * r21e529b0227b 10/crawl-ref/source/godabil.cc: Add minor fixes to the routine to create Zin's pillars of salt. 21:54:33 -!- upsy has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:05:16 -!- vimpulse has joined ##crawl-dev 22:08:52 hi all. I'm running 0.8.0-a0-4718-gb44c10a (downloaded a few hours ago), Windows console version, on Wine on Linux. I see the following four lines onscreen: "The puff of flame hits you! You resist." (newline) "Your scroll of teleportation catches fire!" (newline) "One of y" (double dagger) (theta) "&" (box) B "3 scrolls of identify catches fire!" (newline) "--more--". 22:08:53 Are the double dagger, theta, &, and box all bugs? 22:09:49 and the letter B that comes after them 22:10:10 vimpulse: a) Yes, probably bugs. b) Why are you running windows console version via Wine on Linux? c) The bugs are probably from wine, not crawl. 22:11:06 due: a) OK, thanks. b) No compilation necessary. Do you offer daily Linux binaries? c) Why do you think so? 22:11:08 :) 22:11:28 We've talked about doing Linux binaries but it kind of fell through. 22:11:39 b) play online. Also, compilation isn't that bad at all, and you don't have to update every day 22:12:23 I thought people using linux love updating and compiling all the time, its fun 22:12:26 I don't update every day. I updated today because I switched from playing 0.7.1 to playing trunk today, at eith's recommendation. 22:12:29 vimpulse: Until I see the bug actually occuring in Windows or Linux specifically with a native build, I'd always assume that the compatability layer is in error with translating Stuff. 22:12:39 blackflare: not fun for me. 22:12:41 vimpulse: Compiling trunk is also not usually very difficult. 22:12:48 I was joking but :B 22:12:53 due: Not difficult, just slow. 22:12:55 blackflare: :) 22:13:26 due: I'm on an old laptop with a Celeron M and 512 MB RAM. I'm not even gonna try compiling. 22:13:36 vimpulse: I compile on a trashy netbook :) 22:13:42 vimpulse: What OS? 22:14:12 Er. 22:14:14 What distro, rather? 22:14:18 debian 22:14:28 due: Plus why bother? Console works fine on wine. The only problems I know that Wine causes are some text coloring issues in console, and severe slowness in tiles. 22:14:37 blackflare: updating on linux is a lot easier than updating on windows since most of your programs do it automatically 22:15:13 I know 22:15:21 vimpulse: a) Because when you run into a bug how do we know if the bug is in crawl or in Wine? b) Wine is not 100% complete for things like this. c) At the least, there's aan issue iwth savefile locking that I can think of -- it doesn't work properly on windows. 22:15:21 its actually the only thing I really liked about it 22:16:04 b leads to c for that. 22:16:50 Okay, time to move to the next talk! 22:16:51 due: a) good point. b) Wine can run many apps fine. According to AppDB, even WoW and Oblivion. c) fair. 22:16:56 -!- ortoslon has quit [Disconnected by services] 22:16:56 -!- ortoslon1 has joined ##crawl-dev 22:16:56 -!- ortoslon1 is now known as ortoslon 22:17:00 due: ok thanks for your time. 22:17:11 vimpulse: Yes, "fine", though, not well. Undefined behaviour, etc. 22:17:50 another fair point :) 22:19:05 I have lots of other explanations but anyway. 22:27:33 wine also can't run many apps at all :P 22:28:25 Eronarn: also true. 22:40:24 -!- vimpulse has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:55:57 he uses wine to play the windows binaries? 22:56:06 that's awesome 23:29:04 ??vimpulse 23:29:04 vimpulse[1/4]: hi all. i just found my second bazaar (aptitude 70) on dungeon level 15 (skill 3). 23:29:22 !learn add vimpulse < vimpulse> hi all. I'm running 0.8.0-a0-4718-gb44c10a (downloaded a few hours ago), Windows console version, on Wine on Linux. 23:29:22 vimpulse[5/5]: < vimpulse> hi all. I'm running 0.8.0-a0-4718-gb44c10a (downloaded a few hours ago), Windows console version, on Wine on Linux. 23:33:38 hahaha 23:34:36 TGWi: people used to play the DOS binaries on all OSes, but we cracked down on that. 23:38:20 Windows development builds on CDO updated to: 0.8.0-a0-4788-g8ad3dbc 23:53:06 Unstable branch on CDO updated to: 0.8.0-a0-4788-g8ad3dbc (32)