00:03:14 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:04:35 -!- purge has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:13:16 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 00:38:22 -!- Siber2 has joined ##crawl-dev 00:40:44 -!- ahpla has joined ##crawl-dev 00:40:58 -!- Siber has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:45:37 -!- Siber has joined ##crawl-dev 00:49:19 -!- Siber2 has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:54:04 -!- monky has quit [Quit: hello] 01:04:49 -!- TGWi has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:20:06 @??felid 01:20:07 felid (14h) | Speed: 11 | HD: 5 | Health: 11-25 | AC/EV: 2/18 | Damage: 10 | Res: 06magic(40) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 113. 01:28:52 03due * ra4339219245c 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/portals/wizlab.des: Fix tiles. 01:47:52 -!- ivan has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:52:58 -!- ivan has joined ##crawl-dev 01:57:32 due, huh? I'm sure I copypasted the monster placement code from somewhere, too :P 01:58:50 Zaba: probably, but you actually renamed the functions :0 01:59:15 or well 01:59:19 I don't remember :P 02:01:16 I have spent way too much time doing this :D 02:01:26 BUT, it is almost done! hooray! 02:01:55 -!- evilmike has joined ##crawl-dev 02:03:20 hi evilmike 02:03:32 due, I wonder, why don't I like iskenderun's mystic tower? 02:03:38 Hello 02:04:26 Zaba: I don'tknow? 02:05:28 due, it doesn't even have a 9001-line long lua chunk, and is adjusted to look like a square in ascii! :P 02:06:40 :D 02:08:30 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 02:09:02 !tell Napkin http://crawl.develz.org/info/index.php?q=gnoll+sergeant !!! Vault-defined monsters in Gretell, and their tiles too! 02:09:03 due: OK, I'll let Napkin know. 02:09:33 @??gnoll sergeant 02:09:34 gnoll sergeant (10g) | Speed: 10 | HD: 4 | Health: 17-35 | AC/EV: 2/9 | Damage: 9 | Flags: 07vault | Res: 06magic(8) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 86. 02:09:40 @??antique lich 02:09:41 antique lich (07L) | Speed: 10 | HD: 27 | Health: 80-130 | AC/EV: 20/10 | Damage: 2013(drain) | Flags: 07undead, evil, spellcaster, see invisible, 07vault | Res: 06magic(504), 05fire, 02cold++, 10elec++, 03poison | XP: 10680 | Sp: b.cold (3d37), paralyse, greater demon, animate dead, iron shot (3d44), teleport self / b.draining (3d30), animate dead, summon undead, throw frost (3d13), crystal spear (.. 02:10:08 :D 02:10:16 monsters with different spell set are currently broken 02:10:34 I'll have to re-implement that in crawl rather than Gretell though. 02:10:41 he doesn't have a custom spell set 02:11:08 @??ancient champion 02:11:09 ancient champion (08z) | Speed: 10 | HD: 10 | Health: 54-75 | AC/EV: 15/10 | Damage: 25 | Flags: 07undead, evil, 07vault | Res: 06magic(93), 02cold, 03poison | XP: 1008 | Sp: b.venom (3d15), haste, haunt. 02:11:13 The ydo, though. 02:11:39 ah 02:11:59 @??statue 02:12:00 statue (158) | Speed: 10 | HD: 8 | Health: 70 | AC/EV: 12/1 | Damage: 20 | Flags: 11non-living | Res: 13magic(immune), 05fire, 02cold, 10elec++, 03poison | XP: 561. 02:14:12 tiles don't seem to display entirely correctly with gretell, at least using this script: http://crawl.develz.org/info/inline.php?q=wizard+statue 02:14:20 If that's what you meant by tiles 02:15:56 Hm. 02:16:04 That's an overlay and it shouldn't be displaying on its own. 02:16:24 I'll have to look at it later though 02:17:35 @??the cloud mage 02:17:36 unknown monster: "the cloud mage" 02:17:42 *that*'s definitely broken 02:18:36 @??altered rat 02:18:37 unknown monster: "altered rat" 02:18:54 altered rats have been gone a while :) 02:19:21 Hmm ok. I ran into that vault during my last game (0.7.1 though) 02:19:27 @??laboratory rat 02:19:27 parasitic laboratory rat (04r) | Speed: 9-17 | HD: 5 | Health: 17-39 | AC/EV: 5/5 | Damage: 905(vampiric) | Flags: evil, !sil | Res: 06magic(16) | Chunks: clean/none/unknown | XP: 126 | Sp: blink / fire breath (3d10) / mephitic cloud / shock (d11). 02:19:32 they've been replaced by an actual monster type 02:19:56 neat 02:19:59 new orange rats I guess? 02:20:07 no 02:20:11 @??armoured laboratory rat 02:20:11 armoured laboratory rat (10r) | Speed: 9 | HD: 5 | Health: 16-38 | AC/EV: 5/5 | Damage: 9 | Res: 06magic(16) | Chunks: clean/none/unknown | XP: 121. 02:20:22 @??beastly laboratory rat 02:20:22 beastly laboratory rat (08r) | Speed: 10-17 | HD: 7 | Health: 17-40 | AC/EV: 5/5 | Damage: 10 | Res: 06magic(16) | Chunks: clean/none/unknown | XP: 148. 02:20:40 I still need to fix Gretell to deal with them properly though. 02:21:19 @??grey elf 02:21:20 grey elf (14e) | Speed: 10 | HD: 5 | Health: 9-63 | AC/EV: 2/14 | Damage: 10 | Flags: 07vault | Res: 06magic(28) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 368. 02:24:27 @??malarious mermaid 02:24:27 malarious mermaid (10m) | Speed: 10 (swim: 60%) | HD: 3 | Health: 9-18 | AC/EV: 4/12 | Damage: 10 | Flags: amphibious, 07vault | Res: 06magic(53) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 33. 02:24:29 :D 02:24:44 haha what vault is that from? 02:25:55 one of the sewers 02:27:09 @??elemental statue 02:27:10 elemental statue (058) | Speed: 10 | HD: 8 | Health: 50 | AC/EV: 12/1 | Damage: 20 | Flags: 11non-living, !sil, 07vault | Res: 13magic(immune), 05fire, 02cold, 10elec++, 03poison | XP: 436 | Sp: fire elementals, cantrip. 02:33:20 03due * re9c97049608f 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/ (3 files in 3 dirs): Copy quotes and description into the database from vault definitions. 02:33:35 !tell mu_ Do you have any objections to disambiguating the sprint_mu elemental statues into "color elemental statue"? It will make @?? work properly. 02:33:36 due: OK, I'll let mu_ know. 02:37:40 03due * r49c38cb904a8 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/descript/monsters.txt: Rewrap vault-defined monster descriptions for Gretell. 02:37:53 due, ughh 02:38:06 ? 02:38:15 Zaba: What? 02:38:21 scary duplication of descriptions there 02:38:25 Yes, I know. 02:38:35 and you're completely fine with it, which is even more scary 02:38:38 I'm not 02:38:49 but you commit it, that means you are :P 02:39:02 no, it doesn't :p 02:39:24 I'm working on changing the logic for vault-defined monsters to look in the db. 02:41:51 meh 02:41:56 it still looks up the base name in the database 02:42:38 WHY ARGH WYH 02:42:47 anyway other stuff is bothering me right now I'll fix that later 02:42:49 so much stuff to dooo 02:51:27 nice, due :) 02:51:28 Napkin: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 02:51:48 just fixing cigotuvi's monster right now 02:51:51 that needs a minor hack :) 02:51:59 -!- OG17 has quit [Quit: OG17] 02:52:15 what do we add as description text below the monster name? 02:52:41 due: Ooh, nice work on @?? 02:52:52 @??gnoll shaman 02:52:52 gnoll shaman (16g) | Speed: 10 | HD: 3 | Health: 12-27 | AC/EV: 2/9 | Damage: 9 | Flags: 07vault | Res: 06magic(8) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 40 | Sp: corona, heal other, haste other, minor healing. 02:52:55 greensnark: thank you 02:52:55 excellent work :D 02:53:14 greensnark: It's just a python script that parses the files and fetches the mons/kmons/etc lines, then pushes them out into a .cc file. 02:53:26 greensnark: if you could check the code and comment on it I would apprecaite it 02:53:40 greensnark: speed wise it appears identical but as I am only a level 2 c++ programmer... :D 02:53:58 http://git.develz.org/?p=monster.git;a=commitdiff;h=f7727e33b8c6956e693c07f0d32a9786218322cd 02:54:38 and the python script will run via Makefile? 02:54:59 Napkin: yes, makefile will automatically run it if required 02:55:18 Python generates vault_monster_data.cc which is basically a function that just returns a pre-sized vector of specs. 02:55:22 "if required" is not required, but nice too :D 02:55:57 vault_monsters.cc has a function that iterates over the vector and converts each one into a monster spec, generates the monster and coompares names and returns the spec if it matches. 02:56:08 the iteration only occurs if al previous attempts to make the monster have failed. 02:57:07 I could probably have hacked it into a two-phase process that built monster.cc to start with, then fed all the specs into it and got the name, then generate a name==spec map, but i'm not sure the fuss would be worth it for speed improvements if there would be any 02:57:53 omg, so much techno babble before my coffee! 02:58:04 hah, yes 02:58:04 * Napkin runs off to grab something strong * 02:58:05 ;) 02:58:08 sorry 02:58:24 okay, had to put a hack into monster-description.sh to fix cigotuvi 02:59:09 erm, cigotuvi's monster. the ' in it was causing fun :) 02:59:55 * due pants. 03:01:25 hehe 03:01:30 03j-p-e-g * r99fdec5a3725 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/tutorial/tutorial_lesson2.des: In the second tutorial, replace hand axe -> short sword. 03:01:40 and i was just kidding, apart from the no-coffee-yet part ;) 03:02:16 @??Cigotuvi's monster 03:02:16 Cigotuvi's Monster (13X) | Speed: 9 | HD: 25 | Health: 250 | AC/EV: 5/5 | Damage: 22, 17, 13 | Flags: 05demonic, amphibious, see invisible, 07vault | Res: 06magic(166), 05fire, 02cold, 10elec++, 03poison | XP: 3317. 03:02:28 what description do vault monsters have when you x-v at them? 03:02:49 What is monster-description.sh? 03:02:55 @??Cigotuvis monster 03:02:56 Cigotuvi's Monster (13X) | Speed: 9 | HD: 25 | Health: 250 | AC/EV: 5/5 | Damage: 22, 17, 13 | Flags: 05demonic, amphibious, see invisible, 07vault | Res: 06magic(166), 05fire, 02cold, 10elec++, 03poison | XP: 3317. 03:03:13 not sure it's still used 03:03:15 greensnark: the crawl.develz.org/info description lookup 03:03:27 Oh 03:03:31 Napkin: they get it from a monster prop marker 03:03:44 Napkin: i'm going to change it to search the database first otherwise zaba will kill me in my sleep 03:03:53 hehe 03:04:06 thank you :) 03:04:13 due: This looks fine; creating all vault monsters to get the name won't be a problem unless we have >10k custom monsters or so 03:04:21 greensnark: that's what I thought 03:04:31 :D 03:04:46 Where's the source for monster-description.sh? 03:04:59 crawl@crawl.develz.org:bin/monster-description.sh ;) 03:05:20 well... :-$ 03:05:27 needed something ;) 03:05:29 greensnark: seeing as Gretell already generates a thousand monsters I thought the 100 or so wouldn't be too much. 03:05:38 Napkin: it's fine! :) 03:05:51 Napkin: i was glad i coulld hack it into that as all o fthe php for the website was chowned root :) 03:06:09 Napkin: Where is monster-desription.sh invoked from? 03:06:14 Is it shell-quote-safe? :) 03:06:41 i spend two days on trying that - but not sure :) 03:07:35 greensnark: it's shell-safe. 03:07:41 greensnark: the arguments are quote to hell and back :) 03:07:51 Cool 03:07:52 /var/www/crawl.develz.org/htdocs/info/index.phps 03:08:03 oops 03:08:17 /var/www/crawl.develz.org/htdocs/info/index.php or http://crawl.develz.org/info/index.phps 03:08:46 first time i wrote something in php.. so please be harsh ;D 03:08:55 Napkin: "ew PHP!" 03:09:04 ew php indeed :P 03:09:07 that's what I thought afterwards :D 03:10:15 Napkin: Ok, looks safe enough :) 03:10:27 it's grepping out invalid chars and using escapeshellarg and escapeshellcmd 03:10:39 good :) 03:10:41 *phew* 03:10:51 web-facing shell scripts is still scary 03:11:04 not as scary as php! 03:11:10 well 03:11:28 in a certain way, it's more scary than php, I daresay 03:11:30 due: bad due! 03:11:38 Cigotuvi's monster specialcae :P 03:11:43 *specialcase 03:11:57 hehe 03:12:04 jevoha! 03:12:12 *jehova ;) 03:12:12 due: Why not strip single quotes when comparing against vault monster names? 03:12:21 yes! 03:15:13 Zaba: Yeah, web-facing shell script is terrifying 03:15:15 monster-description does that too 03:16:06 I mean, with its handling of quoting and whitespace, it's just too damn hard to be sure in its safety 03:16:11 at least php doesn't suffer from -that- 03:16:16 Yes 03:16:16 it has plenty other issues, though 03:16:24 But this particular script looks safe 03:17:08 oh hey, now that you are talking about php already 03:17:34 I need to get rid of the @NOSPAM.gazeta.pl in the "Latest Incoming Links" - it's ruining the format 03:17:52 how do i do that in php? 03:17:58 Hehe, you think I know PHP? :) 03:18:08 admit! ;) 03:18:17 i know that they have regex functions that sound like pregnancy tests 03:18:22 hehehehe 03:18:28 * Napkin spills his coffee * 03:18:32 so true :D 03:19:15 php anyone? need "ramarren@NOSPAM.gazeta.pl" to be returned as "Ramarren" 03:19:53 preg_replace('@.*', '', $original) ought to toss the @yaddayadda.pl stuff 03:20:26 Er preg_replace('/@.*/', '', $original) 03:20:35 But you best to get someone who knows PHP :) 03:21:17 yes, could also so a "/(\w+)@(\w+)/", "$1" 03:21:43 And then call ucwords() on it 03:22:00 <-- Google PHP warrior 03:22:17 ucwords()! thanks, php warrior greensnark ;> 03:23:53 \w will probably not match the dot.. maybe \S works too? let's see 03:24:08 why do you need to match the part after the @ at all? 03:24:19 i want to get rid of it, Zaba 03:24:35 ok, can leave out the parenthesis there 03:25:58 can't you just replace @.*$ with emptiness? 03:26:36 http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/ 03:26:55 $publisher2 = ucwords(preg_replace("/(\S+)@.*/", "$1", $publisher2)); 03:26:57 .!learn add Napkin PHP legend. 03:27:02 rofl 03:27:07 funny guy :D 03:27:13 :P 03:27:26 Sorry, I just have to rag anyone who ever edits PHP 03:27:50 heh, I remember who pushed us into direction of Mantis! 03:27:56 And I wonder why they named all their regex functions with preg* :P 03:27:57 you made me! :-P 03:28:29 Mantis needs a cool picture of an actual mantis 03:28:44 hihi 03:28:53 and a shop called "The Tavern"! 03:29:16 Oh, the mantis logo is not bad 03:35:02 Napkin: Why do you number the messages in god quotes array? 03:35:20 saw it done like that somewhere 03:35:40 Because the $chars_invalid just above doesn't bother :) 03:36:07 Also hardcoded array size! Bad Napking :P 03:36:15 what?! 03:36:52 how to do echo htmlentities($quote[rand(1,18)]) without knowing the amount of quotes? 03:37:20 $quote[rand(count($quote))] maybe? 03:37:30 Fear my mad Google skills :) 03:37:37 could work 03:37:40 -!- Gretell has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:37:45 but oh well ;) 03:37:55 Huh Gretell pinged out 03:38:01 it's working and not in queue for optimization now :D 03:38:22 different irc server than I use 03:38:29 I was just reading the file to learn some PHP :) 03:38:39 Looks so perlish 03:38:47 It's like perl without the good stuff :P 03:39:18 hehe 03:39:26 i don't think you can learn from it 03:39:29 as i wrote it ;) 03:40:36 Mm, I shall now play some Crawl in tmux as a test 03:40:43 Purely for academic reasons 03:41:04 I spent a few hours yesterday getting my tmux dynamic window titles right :P 03:41:27 Wanted it to change colour when running a command and change back when back at the shell prompt :P 03:41:28 enjoy :) 03:44:55 Who's responsible for this vault with butterflies in it 03:45:02 Do they know how hard butterflies are to kill? :/ 03:45:20 berserked butterflies? 03:45:51 Oh right, Gretell DOS attacks ongoing here 03:45:53 Let me fix that 03:46:09 Gretell DOS attack? 03:46:52 greensnark: Because the quote/description db contains the ' and the lookup stirng doesn't. 03:47:36 due: Ok, then get Napkin not to strip ' from input :) 03:47:55 greensnark: napkin wasn't around at the time and I ... had to get it working or go crazy. 03:48:33 i had to strip 03:48:37 did you know that being crazy is fun? 03:48:38 actually 03:48:41 napkin has to strip 03:48:41 otherwise the input was broken 03:48:44 otherwise the HTML is borked. 03:48:44 Napkin: But you quote the parameter, no? 03:49:07 but to display the input later again, it needs to be stripped 03:49:15 eifeltrampel tought me that ;) 03:49:15 greensnark: but it would end up with 03:49:21 alternately 03:49:33 You can escape html entities though 03:49:34 strip the input of everything but 's to start with 03:49:45 greensnark: or that too 03:49:50 then it leads to \' next time enter to \\\' 03:50:12 *then it leads to \' and next time to \\\' 03:50:15 Napkin: But you can use htmlentities($input) when stuffing it into a URL, no? 03:50:15 and so on 03:50:37 Er, wait, that needs URL quoting 03:50:48 there probably is another way, but that's the only reasonable quick solution i found at that time 03:50:51 Ah, urlencode($input) 03:50:54 in python, urllib2.urlencode ;) 03:51:05 it's not about the url 03:51:13 it's about the input text area 03:52:16 Napkin: I'm not sure why that'd be a problem if you urlencode correctly 03:52:16 napkin's pet -> napkin\'s pet.. then click search very quickly 50 times -> and it somehow broke and php was a zombie 03:52:28 you gotta love eifeltrampel for such checks... grrrrrr! 03:52:37 And use htmlentities() before reloading into the input textbox 03:52:41 Which you're already doing :) 03:52:50 you decode it when it comes in and encode it when it goes out :) 03:52:55 be my guest and try 03:53:07 Napkin: Oh, can I edit that? 03:53:09 always sanitize your in- and outputs! also when coding! 03:53:11 make a backup though, please 03:53:19 Napkin: Where's the git repo for this? 03:53:34 there is none - hence backup 03:53:39 Hey, bhaak emerged. I knew this PHP discussion would attract him like a shark to blood in the water :P 03:54:17 believe me, it's not a good idea to leave in the ' 03:54:19 nah, it's just your always discussing broken system when I'm watching this channel 03:54:29 *you are 03:55:08 I chowned it to crawl 03:57:24 One sec, fixing the Gretell @?? hd thing 03:57:46 hehe, dependency graphs from hell :) http://crawl.develz.org/doxygen/store_8h.html 03:57:54 03greensnark * r64b554813555 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/clua/fnwrap.lua: Fix parameter name in global_function. 03:58:05 03greensnark * r53349c64f99d 10/crawl-ref/source/mapdef.cc: Clamp monster spec hd at 100 (because ##crawl is awesome). 03:58:25 greensnark, how exactly did high hd break gretell? 03:58:46 Zaba: Because the way HD is used to calculate HP in the monster-gen code is idiotically slow 03:59:32 ah, uh. 04:01:13 -!- Gretell has joined ##crawl-dev 04:01:42 -!- Gretell has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:02:03 I'll bring Gretell back up after I've recompiled the monster binaries 04:02:22 !due GENERATE_TREEVIEW=YES and USE_INLINE_TREES=YES gives a nice navigational tree. You seem to only have the call graph enabled and not the caller graph (CALL_GRAPH resp. CALLER_GRAPH)? 04:02:34 darn 04:02:57 tell due, you mean? 04:02:59 oh, he's around. I don't need henzell's tell :-) 04:03:39 due: what I said a minute ago 04:03:46 I just thought of the shark in Jaws offering doxygen tips to its victims before eating them and it cracked me up :P 04:04:14 "Yo, you should totally enable CALLER_GRAPH." *CHOMP* 04:05:33 Heh, the Tavern needed a moderator-only subforum already :D 04:05:43 after about 3000 posts ;) 04:06:03 you may ask dpeg, I totally don't look like a shark :) 04:06:15 hi 04:06:34 bhaak: Thanks, I must've typo'd. 04:06:37 bhaak: Looking like a shark is optional! 04:06:44 hmm. 04:06:48 and we're having our first ban already ;) 04:06:59 Napkin: Ooooh 04:07:02 Napkin: oooh! 04:07:03 First ban party! 04:07:06 greensnark, the hitpoints calculation works in O(hd), right? 04:07:08 do we know him/her/it? 04:07:10 * due gets the biscuits. 04:07:17 Zaba: Yeah O(n) for hd 04:07:35 Isn't it hit_dice, not hd, though? 04:07:40 szanth 04:07:46 due: hd is hit_dice 04:08:22 And another new subforum called Contributions 04:08:24 greensnark: 5, 2, 5, 0, I meant. 04:08:47 due: ... ? 04:08:53 greensnark: In monsters. 04:09:06 Napkin: what did he do? 04:09:14 greensnark: 5 = hd, 2 and 5 = hp calculation, 0 = overriden hp 04:09:36 due: Yes? 04:09:38 greensnark: I was of the opinion itdid something like rand_in_range(5d2, 5d5) but I dunno. 04:10:33 due: The math is explained in mon-data.h. It looks HD times 04:10:35 Er, loops 04:10:36 did they break poor gretell :( 04:10:40 greensnark: ... oh, i see. 04:10:46 hence the breaking poor gretell 04:11:58 hmm 04:13:38 bhaak: not able to talk without using cusswords and cursing at everything in harsh way 04:13:41 it seems 04:13:56 ah 04:14:01 gently caress those sorts of people! 04:14:20 gently caressed with 5 warnings, i think... 04:14:27 * due laughs. 04:14:32 and giving examples how the post should have looked ;) 04:16:29 https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=158&p=2942#p2942 and the 5 posts below 04:16:51 ... argh 04:16:55 argh wtf wtf WHY. 04:17:11 if (inf.title.empty()) 04:17:11 inf.title = mi.full_name(DESC_CAP_A, true); 04:17:11 std::string db_name = mi.db_name(); 04:17:24 03greensnark 07stone_soup-0.7 * ref6909f72022 10/crawl-ref/source/mapdef.cc: Clamp monster spec hd at 100 (because ##crawl is awesome). 04:17:25 "okay good it uses the monster's name so overrid... argh fuck" 04:18:07 -!- Textmode has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:20:54 do i need to update 0.7 on CDO? 04:21:01 i don't think so 04:21:10 poor greensnark got sucked into the code again ;) 04:21:14 i've noticed :) 04:21:28 Napkin: No, this is only for @? 04:21:34 ah 04:21:48 Within the game users can't create monsters on demand :) 04:21:55 :D 04:21:59 Which is another reason you never want to enable wizmode on public servers 04:22:14 yes, sir :) 04:23:10 @??rat hd:50 ;) 04:23:57 anyways, I added greensnark to the team info on the wordpress/about website 04:24:10 Nooo 04:24:11 i don't get it who removed him from there in the first place! 04:24:23 Napkin: I don't want to be on the list :P 04:24:26 I'm retired 04:24:30 haha 04:24:31 I'm a dev emeritus 04:24:33 riiiiiight 04:24:55 Which means I can do whatever the hell I like with none of the boring responsibilities 04:25:08 leave him on it :D 04:25:23 yaaaay 04:25:39 okay "goodbye and fucking good riddance", vaults no longer need to use props to hack in quotes and descriptions! 04:25:47 what boring responsibilities? 04:25:52 Ok, I think it'll be easiest to make @?? and @? the same for now 04:26:05 i could add "(retired, of course, haha)" behind his name, due ;) 04:26:11 * greensnark not interested in beating the monster source code into shape to compile with 0.7 again 04:26:27 do it, greensnark 04:26:36 it's not so dissimilar, either 04:26:39 !lg * killer=grinder 04:26:39 puts more pressure to release 0.8 :> 04:26:39 162. p0l1cy the Ducker (L8 SETm), worshipper of Sif Muna, blasted by Grinder (wand of cold) on D:6 on 2011-01-15, with 1869 points after 7137 turns and 0:16:23. 04:26:43 oh good, it's work 04:26:49 !lg * killer=grinder cv=0.8-a 04:26:49 37. p0l1cy the Ducker (L8 SETm), worshipper of Sif Muna, blasted by Grinder (wand of cold) on D:6 on 2011-01-15, with 1869 points after 7137 turns and 0:16:23. 04:26:59 !lg * killer=eustachio 04:26:59 2. Yorikke the Infuser (L9 KoEn), worshipper of Makhleb, blasted by Eustachio (wand of draining {zapped: 1}) on D:10 on 2010-12-10, with 2908 points after 13884 turns and 1:35:37. 04:27:02 that hasn't 04:27:07 !lm * uniq=eustachio cv=0.8-a 04:27:09 766. [2011-01-15] theglow the Ruinous (L8 KeRe) killed Eustachio on turn 7770. (D:6) 04:27:15 :/ 04:27:26 -!- Gretell has joined ##crawl-dev 04:27:33 @??rat hd:20000 04:27:33 rat (07r) | Speed: 10 | HD: 100 | Health: 211-289 | AC/EV: 1/10 | Damage: 3 | Res: 06magic(1) | XP: 10478. 04:27:35 oh, people are probably still running old versions 04:27:44 @??rat hd:10000000000 04:27:45 rat (07r) | Speed: 10 | HD: 100 | Health: 211-289 | AC/EV: 1/10 | Damage: 3 | Res: 06magic(1) | XP: 10478. 04:28:04 lol, they did that in ##crawl? *giggling* 04:28:05 @??rat hd:10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 04:28:06 rat (07r) | Speed: 10 | HD: -1 | Health: 1-4 | AC/EV: 1/10 | Damage: 3 | Res: 06magic(1) | XP: 1. 04:28:09 Ok, we're good 04:28:17 HD: -1 is amusing 04:28:27 hehe 04:28:39 @??-version 04:28:39 Monster stats Crawl version: 0.8.0-a0-4584-gb914d3b 04:28:41 @?-version 04:28:41 Monster stats Crawl version: 0.8.0-a0-4584-gb914d3b 04:28:47 @??gnoll shaman 04:28:48 gnoll shaman (16g) | Speed: 10 | HD: 3 | Health: 12-27 | AC/EV: 2/9 | Damage: 9 | Flags: 07vault | Res: 06magic(8) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 40 | Sp: corona, heal other, haste other, minor healing. 04:29:01 @??gnoll shaman hd:5 04:29:01 unknown monster: "gnoll shaman" 04:29:04 :P 04:29:21 hehehehe 04:29:39 i'm not adjusting it to allow that 04:29:52 oh, who put shamans on white? 04:29:55 white is for souplings! 04:30:02 @??homunculus 04:30:03 unknown monster: "homunculus" 04:30:10 I'm not naming any names, but we all know it's Keskitalo 04:30:13 @??goblin name:homunculus name_replace col:lightcyan 04:30:13 homunculus (11g) | Speed: 10 | HD: 1 | Health: 2-6 | AC/EV: 0/12 | Damage: 4 | Res: 06magic(1) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 1. 04:30:24 shamans can go to lightblue :D 04:30:34 why does info.php find the tile of cigotuvi's monster? 04:30:45 Napkin: because tile_info.txt strips out 's ;) 04:30:56 well, parse_tile.py does 04:31:10 parse_tile.py? :-O 04:31:15 So there's a systemic anti-' bias all up and down the chain :P 04:31:15 yes 04:31:29 well, it doesn't actually strip the ' 04:31:34 but the tile name is cigotuvis_monster.png 04:32:04 ah, ic 04:32:11 http://git.develz.org/?p=monster.git;a=blob;f=parse_tiles.py;h=23fa478ea1e5adbf215a8784539d27394853a95c;hb=bleeding-edge-crawl 04:32:15 it would be cooler if a homunculus used the colour of the potion its made of. But I guess that would overlap with other g's 04:32:30 evilmike: it doesn't make sense though 04:32:40 evilmike: because the potion affectsthem, it doesn't make them. 04:32:49 * due scared to check the homunculus page 04:33:07 but if they are incubated inside a potion, they'll come out all covered in it! 04:33:34 too much overlap ;) 04:33:47 i can't steal another glyph either so itt'll have to do 04:33:55 why - do you have multiple and can't tell them apart, evilmike? 04:34:15 or just for flavor? 04:35:14 I just think its funny to have a team of multicoloured servants following you 04:35:40 :) 04:37:20 hmm.. i got a request to hack the page titles in the forum... 04:41:24 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 04:42:21 nah.. not today! 04:43:44 hi Mu_ 04:43:54 Sleet! 04:43:57 Mu_, I am renaming the elemental statues to elemental statue in sprint_mu, is that okay? 04:44:12 Mu_: we do need to have someting to differentiate them either way though. 04:44:15 @??elemental statue 04:44:15 elemental statue (058) | Speed: 10 | HD: 8 | Health: 50 | AC/EV: 12/1 | Damage: 20 | Flags: 11non-living, !sil, 07vault | Res: 13magic(immune), 05fire, 02cold, 10elec++, 03poison | XP: 436 | Sp: fire elementals, cantrip. 04:44:21 I don't think this is really Mu_ 04:44:30 It's some kind of impostor cunningly disguised as Mu_ 04:44:36 itsmu 04:44:37 Mu_: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 04:44:42 Heh 04:44:43 !messages 04:44:43 (1/1) due said (2h 11m 8s ago): Do you have any objections to disambiguating the sprint_mu elemental statues into "color elemental statue"? It will make @?? work properly. 04:45:01 oki 04:45:32 @??ancient champion 04:45:32 ''I appreciate that Grinder might have been a soft touch at his former depth, but D:3 I think is a bit too far in the other direction - I mean he has a bunch more HP than your average ogre, plus Blink and Paralyse and a pain-branded weapon. I can't see killing him hand-to-hand at XL3, and given that he's immune to Meph most casters and hybrids have no means of avoiding the fight. '' -- from SA re: paralysed to death by grinde 04:45:33 ancient champion (08z) | Speed: 10 | HD: 10 | Health: 54-75 | AC/EV: 15/10 | Damage: 25 | Flags: 07undead, evil, 07vault | Res: 06magic(93), 02cold, 03poison | XP: 1008 | Sp: b.venom (3d15), haste, haunt. 04:45:39 @??modern champion 04:45:39 unknown monster: "modern champion" 04:45:43 ^^ needs fixing 04:46:09 @??Grinder 04:46:09 Grinder (025) | Speed: 10 | HD: 6 | Health: 40 | AC/EV: 3/11 | Damage: 11 | Flags: 05demonic, evil, see invisible, !sil | Res: 06magic(24), 02cold++, 03poison | XP: 322 | Sp: pain (d10), paralyse, blink. 04:46:11 are all custom monsters bein turned into real monsters 04:46:22 or is gretell just hyper intelligent now and reading des files 04:46:23 Mu_: No, due updated @?? to handle custom monsters 04:46:30 cool 04:46:41 @??cigotuvi's monster 04:46:42 Cigotuvi's Monster (13X) | Speed: 9 | HD: 25 | Health: 250 | AC/EV: 5/5 | Damage: 22, 17, 13 | Flags: 05demonic, amphibious, see invisible, 07vault | Res: 06magic(166), 05fire, 02cold, 10elec++, 03poison | XP: 3317. 04:46:52 Although he had to use a hack for Cigotuvi :P 04:46:56 03due * r01789f99ed06 10/crawl-ref/source/ (9 files in 7 dirs): Dump quotes and descriptions from .des files. 04:47:12 Mu_: and that is exactly the reaction I was looking for, thanks for confirming I made the right decision :D 04:47:24 Amazing how you and due think obsessively off Cigotuvi's Monster and always test it first :P 04:47:28 *of 04:47:51 it's our pet 04:47:53 our love child 04:47:55 ... 04:47:58 he should be a unique so that his three attacks can be mutate, chaos, klown :((( 04:47:59 no actually forget I said that 04:48:06 Already forgotten 04:48:07 Mu_: yes yes, it IS on my list :D 04:49:37 i'll be annoyed as hell if i ever get paralysis killed on d:3 :P 04:49:53 Mu_: pretend its ijyb with a wand of paralysis 04:50:39 at least its early enough that you can just go "ah whatever" and roll a new character 04:50:45 plus isn't chain paralysis gone now? 04:51:09 i'm a big dork and i care about my cao win percentage :P 04:51:24 @??hellbinder 04:51:24 unknown monster: "hellbinder" 04:51:32 Mu_: *that* is problematic 04:51:41 I'd be annoyed if I was going for a streak or something... but when I'm doing that I usually put an exclusion on every early unique 04:52:41 @??master elementalist 04:52:41 master elementalist (13@) | Speed: 10 | HD: 15 | Health: 41-76 | AC/EV: 0/13 | Damage: 6 | Flags: spellcaster, 07vault | Res: 06magic(53) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 1470 | Sp: iron shot (3d28), air elementals, sticky flame range (3d6), water elementals, haste, blink. 04:52:57 @??ancient champion 04:52:58 ancient champion (08z) | Speed: 10 | HD: 10 | Health: 54-75 | AC/EV: 15/10 | Damage: 25 | Flags: 07undead, evil, 07vault | Res: 06magic(93), 02cold, 03poison | XP: 1008 | Sp: b.venom (3d15), haste, haunt. 04:53:00 --^ their spells are broken 04:53:15 in gretell or in the game or in real life 04:53:18 due: What are the real spells? 04:53:25 they have multiple spellbooks 04:53:32 Ah 04:53:35 yes 04:53:44 I'm going to update mapdef to deal with multiple spellbooks though. 04:53:44 but you can't do that in the vault so you have to define them as whole new monsters with the same name but different spells 04:53:53 Mu_: yeah, going to make it so that you can 04:54:17 it let me give them different gear though too so idk 04:54:26 @??deep elf elementalist 04:54:27 deep elf elementalist (13e) | Speed: 10 | HD: 14 | Health: 50-74 | AC/EV: 0/13 | Damage: 12 | Flags: spellcaster, see invisible, 07vault | Res: 06magic(112) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 1381 | Sp: iron shot (3d26), air elementals, sticky flame range (3d6), water elementals, haste, blink. 04:54:48 randomiing the gear is easy though 04:54:50 Storing multiple sets of inventory overrides and spells per custom monster is probably overkill 04:55:44 making fleshy orifices squelch loudly when you shut them during berserk, however, is appropriate behaviour and shouldn't be looked down upon 04:55:47 i.e. if you want a monster with a given spell set to have a given equipment set it's easier to just define them as two separate monsters 04:56:00 ??itsmu 04:56:00 itsmu[1/3]: You tickle the shadow dragon! You relax the shadow dragon!! You caress the shadow dragon like a lover!!! 04:56:02 ??itsmu[3] 04:56:02 itsmu[3/3]: < Mu_>is the gdr change on cdo yet?!?!? woooooot i haven't played a heavy armour character since 0.5.2 :o 04:56:11 itsmu 3 sucks 04:56:28 !learn add itsmu <+Mu_> making fleshy orifices squelch loudly when you shut them during berserk, however, is appropriate behaviour and shouldn't be looked down upon 04:56:28 itsmu[4/4]: <+Mu_> making fleshy orifices squelch loudly when you shut them during berserk, however, is appropriate behaviour and shouldn't be looked down upon 04:57:22 @??strange machine 04:57:23 strange machine (158) | Speed: 16 | HD: 13 | Health: 120 | AC/EV: 12/1 | Flags: 11non-living, !sil, 07vault | Res: 13magic(immune), 12cold+++, 10elec++, 03poison | Vul: 04fire | XP: 1891 | Sp: blink other, major healing. 04:57:48 @??strawberry bush 04:57:48 unknown monster: "strawberry bush" 04:58:20 Are strawberry bushes real? 04:58:38 i thought so 04:58:43 !vault strawberry fields 04:58:43 Couldn't understand fields 04:58:46 !vault strawberry 04:58:49 Lines pasted to http://paste.scsys.co.uk/82570 04:58:58 oh 04:59:03 @??strawberry plant 04:59:03 strawberry plant (03P) | Speed: 0 | HD: 10 | Health: 39-72 | AC/EV: 10/0 | Flags: 03plant, 07vault | Res: 13magic(immune), 03poison | XP: 0. 04:59:15 i can't think of anythin else to test gj due 04:59:18 :D 04:59:27 it's actually exceedingly hacky 04:59:36 but i'm kinda happy with it so 04:59:37 that vault prolly pre-dates bushes 04:59:57 @??bush 04:59:57 bush (07P) | Speed: 0 | HD: 20 | Health: 78-130 | AC/EV: 15/0 | Flags: 03plant | Res: 13magic(immune), 03poison | Vul: 04fire | XP: 0. 05:00:25 All we need is a unique that can summon bushes that can move and attack 05:00:42 @?? bush spells:crystal_spear 05:00:42 Unknown spell name: 'crystal spear' in 'crystal_spear' 05:00:50 @?? bush spells:lehudibs_crystal_spear 05:00:51 Unknown spell name: 'lehudibs crystal spear' in 'lehudibs_crystal_spear' 05:00:56 ' 05:00:57 Urk, ' stripping :P 05:01:09 @?? bush spells:iron_shot 05:01:10 bush (07P) | Speed: 0 | HD: 20 | Health: 78-130 | AC/EV: 15/0 | Flags: 03plant, !sil | Res: 13magic(immune), 03poison | Vul: 04fire | XP: 0 | Sp: iron shot (3d34). 05:01:21 Too bad they'd never actually use it with speed 0 :'9 05:01:38 Dungeon tile (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3216) by Denzi 05:03:09 @??bush spells:lehudib's_crystal_spear 05:03:10 bush (07P) | Speed: 0 | HD: 20 | Health: 78-130 | AC/EV: 15/0 | Flags: 03plant, !sil | Res: 13magic(immune), 03poison | Vul: 04fire | XP: 0 | Sp: crystal spear (3d40). 05:03:14 greensnark: What's your problem? 05:03:26 Hm, when did we stop stripping ' 05:03:34 We never stripped ' in spells :0 05:03:39 We used to :P 05:03:43 nope 05:03:46 never 05:03:48 you coded it too ;) 05:05:38 Oh, c'est moi :P http://git.develz.org/?p=gretell.git;a=commitdiff;h=e516066def41e31e7263ffaf28a90b1dcabe3150 05:06:05 It must have been the trauma of learning about Cigotuvi's monster and having to burn out the memory with a blowtorch 05:07:04 :p 05:15:02 @?? ancient champion 05:15:02 unknown monster: "ancient champion" 05:15:09 @??ancient champion 05:15:10 ancient champion (08z) | Speed: 10 | HD: 10 | Health: 54-75 | AC/EV: 15/10 | Damage: 25 | Flags: 07undead, evil, 07vault | Res: 06magic(93), 02cold, 03poison | XP: 1008 | Sp: b.venom (3d15), haste, haunt. 05:15:11 oh 05:15:45 oh? 05:15:50 space is no longer ignored? 05:15:53 apparently 05:16:05 pretty please, due :)) 05:16:05 Bad due 05:16:07 @?? Boris 05:16:08 Boris (05L) | Speed: 10 | HD: 22 | Health: 154 | AC/EV: 12/10 | Damage: 25, 1513(drain) | Flags: 07undead, evil, spellcaster, see invisible | Res: 06magic(322), 02cold, 10elec++, 03poison | XP: 7917 | Sp: iron shot (3d37), b.cold (3d32), invisibility, animate dead, destruction orb (8d17). 05:16:17 @?? ancient champion 05:16:18 unknown monster: "ancient champion" 05:16:32 due is naughty 05:20:38 why? 05:20:52 huh 05:21:00 looks like i missed the strip call 05:21:50 THAT sounds nasty! 05:23:09 remember that the code i a totally different call 05:23:17 it dooesn't go anywhere near the parse_mons_spec :p 05:23:21 so i have to do duplication 05:24:38 ok, the browser title in forum will now be " * View topic * The Tavern" instead of "The Tavern * View topic * " 05:24:52 same goes for "view forum" titles 05:26:21 should make it easier to distinguish your tabs in a browser 05:27:01 Go PHP Pope! 05:27:15 PHP Pontiff? 05:27:22 lol, shut up :-P 05:27:24 PHP Pontifex? 05:27:32 copy & paste ;) 05:27:56 okay kinda dfixed 05:28:25 Napkin: Nice work :) 05:28:29 huh 05:30:09 someone pass me big rocks, please? 05:30:38 people working in garden with chainsaws should be... starting at 9 o'clock on saturday?! 05:31:02 Isn't it 12.30 there 05:31:12 and they still didn't take a break! 05:31:52 they would make good companions for my kobold necromancer of Yred ;> 05:33:00 Heh 05:33:01 Send Sigmund over to talk to them 05:33:01 irgs, no, don't want to see them being confused ;D 05:33:01 :/ 05:33:01 how come die issues are back 05:33:01 greensnark, did you change something 05:33:01 die issues? 05:33:13 linking can't find reference to die() 05:33:33 I must've broken the Makefile somehow 05:33:41 dunno how 05:34:06 Maybe I left the crawl tree pointed 0.7? 05:34:26 hm, no, the makefile is odd 05:34:36 i stashed it for you :) 05:34:49 @?? ancient champion 05:34:49 ancient champion (08z) | Speed: 10 | HD: 10 | Health: 54-75 | AC/EV: 15/10 | Damage: 25 | Flags: 07undead, evil, 07vault | Res: 06magic(93), 02cold, 03poison | XP: 1008 | Sp: b.venom (3d15), haste, haunt. 05:34:52 happy? :) 05:35:09 Yay 05:43:31 \o/ 05:43:32 @?? ancient champion 05:43:32 unknown monster: "ancient champion" 05:43:32 naaaaah 05:43:32 nobody expects that to work :-P 05:43:32 btw, how about adding copy&paste to the message window of tiles? 05:43:32 it always bothered me I had to type the monster/item name 05:43:32 greensnark: in the version on CDO, I removed the line that disabled compiling of dbg-asrt.cc 05:43:32 kilobyte: Cool 05:43:32 -!- Ashenzari has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:44:11 -!- Ashenzari has joined ##crawl-dev 05:44:11 -!- The topic of ##crawl-dev is: Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki | Long stuff to pastebin.ca please | It is better to have a horrible ending than to have horrors without end. 05:54:43 due next can you make gretell and x say whether or not a monster has rneg :P 06:01:18 or you could, Mu_ :) 06:01:22 available via git! 06:01:41 i aint no programmer :3 06:07:23 meh, okay 06:07:36 it's on my list 06:13:31 03chriscampbell89 * r3dd268b2dbd0 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-util.cc: Shiny new Serpent of Hell colours 06:33:11 -!- evilmike has quit [] 06:33:19 due: Samans were in before the homonculi :P 06:42:50 Keskitalo: :D 06:43:29 Keskitalo, they're in @??! 06:43:33 (Shaman that is) 07:05:20 lkid (L14 DSNe) ASSERT(in_bounds(mons->target) || mons->target.origin()) in 'mon-act.cc' at line 2365 failed. (Lair:8) 07:05:56 03j-p-e-g * rfbeb327692b8 10/crawl-ref/source/command.cc: If you have neither spells nor abilities, make = skip ahead to items. 07:06:04 due: No, they shouldn't be, they're vault only 07:06:25 The shamans might be good random monsters though, but they're much like ogre mages 07:12:42 -!- upsy has joined ##crawl-dev 07:20:54 Keskitalo: there's a different issue: if you're using the same monster many times in different vaults, it's code duplication. It might be better to just give them a regular enum and entry in mon-data.h 07:21:14 this doesn't mean random generation 07:22:20 @??gnoll shaman 07:22:21 gnoll shaman (16g) | Speed: 10 | HD: 3 | Health: 12-27 | AC/EV: 2/9 | Damage: 9 | Flags: 07vault | Res: 06magic(8) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 40 | Sp: corona, heal other, haste other, minor healing. 07:22:26 @??gnoll sergeant 07:22:27 gnoll sergeant (10g) | Speed: 10 | HD: 4 | Health: 17-35 | AC/EV: 2/9 | Damage: 9 | Flags: 07vault | Res: 06magic(8) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 86. 07:25:06 kilobyte: Well, it's defined just once on the top of gnoll_camp.des for that matter 07:25:10 Gretell: Cool! 07:51:50 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 08:08:06 hmm, haven't read the SA thread in a while 08:08:21 Keskitalo: hi! 08:08:25 Hi! 08:08:39 Keskitalo: it is surprisingly tame 08:09:15 Although I already just skimmed over a lot of the forum posts even while they were interesting; can't really concentrate much :) 08:09:42 Keskitalo: what do you think of making one/some/all fruits give a little HP when eaten, and to add 0-2 apples (say) to starting kits? 08:11:01 I liked that the best from the ideas about making early game easier. 08:11:36 background: players complain about early game lethality, and we don't want starting !healing, or increased maxHP for everyone... 08:11:46 I'm not terribly concerned about that though. :) 08:12:12 At most I'd like to increase D:1 monster variety, but that wouldn't necessarily help (or necessarily be beneficial anyway, I don't know) 08:12:19 I don't think it's really necessary but it'd a) add choices (when to eat) and b) help witm item differentiaion 08:12:44 Yea, it *would* add a bit of tactical choice-making to the beginning 08:14:42 Keskitalo: there's been talk about fancier orb (harder to apport, shrieks etc) 08:15:04 would you have a look at the orbrun wiki page? 08:15:22 this felid of mine had 5 jewelries and I think 7 different potions after D1 08:16:14 felirx: bug! 08:16:26 dpeg: I'll do when I get a poper chance 08:16:30 proper 08:16:31 cool 08:17:01 I did like (galehar's?) idea of changing the orb run, not zot according to runes. Of course, I like the idea of changin Zot too :) 08:17:10 but the orb run needs more help 08:17:34 -!- TGWi has joined ##crawl-dev 08:17:38 Keskitalo: I saw galehar's yesterday for the first time. It is awesome. 08:17:40 I had some sort of vault that had 2x2, 2x2, 2x2, 2x2 squares of loot in the form of few accessories, potions and gold 08:17:51 "Also, does anyone else have this problem where they impulse buy other videogames and then never play them because they are not Crawl? I bought a bunch of Bioware games on Steam a few days ago and haven't touched them. Crawl is just so loving good..." 08:17:53 felirx: on D:1? 08:17:58 let me doublecheck 08:18:22 Was that layout_roguey? :) Zaba fixed it, and it's coded to include loot rooms 08:18:30 Keskitalo: I think it's a vault 08:18:35 it just looks like one 08:18:52 evilmike observed on SA that "it will probably be removed by release", so I guess we should do that :) :) :) 08:18:55 there are four of them in a square 08:19:28 ok, sounds different then 08:19:32 that's the vault that's resposible for a few D:1 immolation deaths 08:19:47 felirx: I think some of the items are useless or bad 08:20:38 Keskitalo: what will be removed? 08:21:26 http://www.student.oulu.fi/~jannelah/crawl/D1_vault.jpg 08:22:44 dpeg: loot rooms from roguey_level 08:23:04 yeah, that thing felirx got is definitely not them, my bad 08:24:04 I'm off, cheers! 08:24:16 felirx: bye 08:24:21 erm, Keskitalo 08:24:57 D:1 can't have layout_roguey 08:25:02 (duh..) 08:25:57 I didn't find that vault :( 08:26:11 regarding layout_roguey treasure rooms: They really aren't anything new. They always were, and as far as I am concerned, they have also always worked correctly. 08:26:20 NAME: minivault_10 08:26:20 TAGS: mini_float extra luniq_mini 08:26:20 MAP 08:26:20 xxxx xxxx 08:26:20 x**x x**x 08:26:23 x**+..+**x 08:26:25 xx+x..x+xx ...... ...... 08:26:28 xx+x..x+xx 08:26:30 x**+..+**x 08:26:33 x**x x**x 08:26:35 xxxx xxxx 08:26:38 ENDMAP 08:26:41 it's ancient 08:27:00 I'd venture to say that 16 *s on D:1 is a bit much 08:30:53 yes 08:31:28 felirx: did you id what you got? 08:32:54 probably 08:33:03 but it was mixed up in the other d1-6 loot 08:33:09 so no way to tell what I got specifically 08:33:37 one cursed ring of teleport and then ring of magic power, rN+, resist magic 08:33:44 stasis, guardian spirit 08:33:51 for what it's worth 08:34:25 Airstrike on D:1? 08:35:29 see xl 08:35:55 -!- TGWi1 has joined ##crawl-dev 08:36:01 DEPTH: D:6-26 08:36:01 SUBST: * = %:30 * |:1 08:36:04 added those 08:36:12 -!- TGWi has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:36:30 -!- TGWi1 is now known as TGWi 08:36:34 ok? 08:36:49 that's good 08:44:00 03dpeg * r7ab4e91782aa 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/variable/mini_features.des: Nerf some minivaults. 08:44:05 felirx, TGWi: thanks! 08:58:24 -!- pointless_ has joined ##crawl-dev 08:59:26 Keskitalo, I don't want to remove loot rooms from roguey levels---they're historical, and cute 08:59:54 Keskitalo, making it impossible (rather than very, very, extremely unlikely) to appear on shallow levels would be an option, though 08:59:59 them, rather 09:01:59 03galehar * re46dae082d33 10/crawl-ref/source/ (items.cc message.cc stuff.cc stuff.h): Pickup single stack: allow using g or enter to pick the whole stack. 09:03:49 Zaba: I'd say leave them as is... they don't provide 16 times * items, rightß 09:06:55 hmm.. 09:07:15 does that mean that , prompts for a number? 09:07:49 dpeg, not sure how many items they can provide, my mathematics are failing me at the moment 09:08:52 they can give *quite* a lot of *s at once, though 09:09:14 but the chance of their appearance on D:2 is something like 0.015% 09:09:16 the loot from one of those was very nice when i found one in early D 09:09:22 and another in lair, i think 09:09:36 Zaba: is it always 09:09:41 * or randomised? 09:09:51 TGWi: yes, does for a while now 09:09:59 does ,, pickup all? 09:10:15 i thought it was just g that had the new pickup behaviour 09:10:16 not , 09:10:22 i hope so at least 09:10:53 it's not that common that you need a stack of something not on autopickup, is it? 09:10:57 not so bad 09:11:29 oh well, i just tested and , still behaves the old way 09:11:37 shift G is free though (it does the same thing as ^G) 09:13:42 ah, sorry, yes 09:13:56 TGWi: Shift-G is better than Ctrl-G for travel 09:14:03 but I just suggested ; on the mailing list 09:14:21 ; already does something though 09:15:29 dpeg: right now, g prompts you to pick up only part of a single stack (like you just suggested on the mailing list) 09:15:29 dpeg, always * 09:15:42 Zaba: we might want to tweak that 09:15:56 why can't it be something obscure like *g instead of changing keys people use, how often do you actually want to pick up a certain amount of something that's not on a square with other stuff? 09:15:57 people already complained about that so galehar made it so you could do gg or genter to pick up the whole stack 09:15:57 maybe 09:16:01 MarvinPA: it wasn't my proposal (I think) 09:16:09 and , picks up an entire single stack anyway 09:16:26 MarvinPA: and now I suggested ; for that (so , and g would be identical again) 09:16:32 ah i see, okay 09:17:15 i'd rather have the more commonly-used key (g in my case) be used to pick up a stack with no prompt 09:17:33 but i dunno what key other people use most and i can just macro it around if need be so it's not a big deal 09:17:45 ; is rarely used _and_ fits quite nicely 09:17:56 so we can keep g and , at what they used to be 09:18:11 that sounds good to me, yeah 09:18:30 I should've said that before galehar wrote the commit :( 09:21:31 Man, crossbows completely smash everything in the early game :P 09:22:07 greensnark: yesterday we had a lively discussion about the early game... only OG17 and I considered it to be a lot of fun 09:22:20 Yeah, it's too easy these days to be fun :P 09:22:32 * greensnark <3 early game. 09:22:47 That's the only time you really need to outmaneuver stuff in Crawl 09:22:57 Once you're past the early game you can easily kill/avoid stuff 09:23:53 <3 early game 09:23:56 greensnark: you know that the complaint is early game being too hard :) 09:24:27 Yeah, but the complaint is by players who think the way to play is to charge everything and whack it t odeath 09:24:41 Like TGWi :P 09:24:44 <3 09:24:50 and who think every D:1 death is an insult to their personal being 09:24:50 Not to mention any names 09:24:53 omg, it isn't? 09:25:03 no wonder I constantly die! 09:25:23 seriously though having 30% of deaths on D:1 is bad 09:25:28 bhaak: Actually you die because ^E doesn't do what you want it to do :P 09:25:40 it's *possible* to die less than that obviously but clearly most people don't care enough to do so 09:25:45 TGWi: Exactly, that's terrible. The midgame/lategame are way too easy 09:25:46 TGWi: remove unviables from that figure! Then restrict to good players!! 09:25:57 ...why 09:26:33 greensnark: deaths should be shifted to mid- and lategame because mid- and lategame deaths are due to play error 09:26:37 but seriously, to present the novice player only some easy combos at first would be swell. 09:26:44 the design goal is not to reduce lethality to 10% for every half-bit wannabe crawler who thinks winning TrEE should be guaranteed 09:26:49 TGWi: So are about 99% of early game deaths 09:26:55 bhaak: we are doing this 09:27:13 literally disallowing combinations is bad 09:27:19 dpeg: Well, TrEE are not going to die early game unless played terribly 09:27:22 use the questionnaire (if that's not what you meant) 09:27:54 greensnark: true 09:28:02 oh, put it to "not going to die early game _too often_" 09:28:06 I wouldn't call TrEE unviable :P 09:28:12 TGWi: the questionnaire would be an option, yes. But players these days also really like achievements :) 09:28:19 greensnark: yesterday we pondered that DEBe has a better time early on than DEEE, what's wrong? :) 09:28:19 no 09:28:20 no 09:28:20 never 09:28:30 e.g. kill Sigmund -> enable Chaos Knights :) 09:28:52 that's just an annoying waste of time for anyone who isn't new to crawl 09:28:53 bhaak: I tried that a couple of times, since I think it'd help a lot. But both players and codevs are rather conservative. 09:28:54 oh no, please not :D 09:28:58 ^ 09:29:09 achievements wouldn't work except in stable versions 09:29:17 make it opt-in but very visible 09:29:25 we'd have an option so that you can disable all of this right away 09:29:36 but it would give a great sense of growth for new players 09:29:42 there's a difference between being accessible and being condescending 09:29:49 in terms of giving people choices 09:30:00 "Are you an experienced player? [yn]" ? 09:30:08 dpeg: DEBe has a very straightforward playstyle 09:30:14 * dpeg doesn't know what "condescending" means and cannot be arsed to look it up. 09:30:21 greensnark: yes, but DEEE will have better winrate. 09:30:35 showing or implying a usually patronizing descent from dignity or superiority 09:30:45 (that's not a very useful definition :P) 09:31:11 dpeg: actually, you'll find unviable combos have a better winrate 09:31:14 my suggestion was that rather than hufi, the initially highlighted option should be "help me choose a character" (as on the wiki) 09:31:19 because new players like playing viable combos :P 09:31:24 dpeg: Also bhaak claims he does not resemble a shark in any respect. Is this true? 09:31:33 casmith789: by winrate I mean "for one, good player", not among all players 09:31:59 greensnark: He clearly resembles a shark by being a vertebrate. 09:32:08 !lg greatplayers win s=-char 09:32:09 820 games for greatplayers (win): 1x GEWz, 1x MfFi, 1x OMAs, 1x SEWr, 1x SpAE, 1x MDTm, 1x KoCr, 1x FeIE, 1x DDTm, 1x DDAE, 1x HaSu, 1x DEPr, 1x KeGl, 1x MfBe, 1x VpTh, 1x ElCj, 1x MfCK, 1x HuPa, 1x SEBe, 1x MDMo, 1x DGNe, 1x DGEn, 1x NaGl, 1x HaWn, 1x MuFE, 1x TrRe, 1x HaEn, 1x MiCj, 1x SEHu, 1x DrCr, 1x HaFE, 1x DGAM, 1x DECr, 1x HaSt, 1x OMWz, 1x MiSu, 1x KeWn, 1x SEAE, 1x MiTh, 1x VpGl, 1x GET... 09:32:13 From Switzerland, even! 09:32:22 dpeg: Yeah, that's damning right there 09:32:29 sharks don't have bones 09:33:10 but I guess you can still be a vertebrate 09:33:13 but they still are fish (I don't know the translations of Knochenfisch (bone fish?) and Knorpelfisch) 09:34:04 re: restricting chaos knights to sigmund-killers, when I showed crawl to my friend the first thing he played was dsck xom 09:34:13 he did fine 09:34:28 when I started I played loads of dsck xom 09:34:41 he would've played dg but dgck wasn't an option 09:35:00 seeing the loads of classes and races is a big attraction for many people 09:35:54 but contributes to them dieing a billion times on D:1 09:35:56 restricting combinations (or even strongly suggesting the player restrict themselves) reduces the appeal 09:35:58 you cannot have everything 09:36:21 interesting question from ##crawl: in regards to the ench split, has the staff of enchantment been changed? 09:36:30 not yet, iirc 09:36:44 does it do charms and hexes then? 09:36:57 neither I'd guess :P 09:37:06 would lol if it were literally unchanged 09:37:25 dpeg: an option should be provided for people who would use it, but it shouldn't be overbearing 09:37:27 that's bad for everyone 09:37:55 the questionnaire would help already 09:38:39 it currently boosts both 09:38:47 hmm 09:39:05 change that to staff of hexes, probably 09:39:21 charms doesn't care about spell power (or magic staves) 09:46:07 -!- purge has joined ##crawl-dev 10:23:12 -!- pointless_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:03:52 -!- pointless_ has joined ##crawl-dev 11:11:10 Putting on SInv artefact does not reactivate autopickup (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3217) by minmay 11:24:27 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 11:29:47 -!- OG17 has joined ##crawl-dev 11:42:25 wtf.. everywhere I went some unique able to berserk? 11:42:42 _really_ sucky 11:43:54 Napkin: who? 11:44:16 first Agnes, then Rupert.. 11:44:18 < Gretell> Napkin the Harbinger of Death (L12 KoNe), worshipper of Yredelemnul, slain by Rupert (a +2,+1 dwarven great mace of crushing) on Lair:5, with 20955 points after 32592 turns and 7:39:26. 11:44:26 Agnes has no berserk 11:44:32 unless from a potion 11:44:37 Agnes berserked 11:45:56 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 11:47:44 monsters can't evoke randarts even if they have one with berserk, so a potion or a weapon of chaos are the only explanations 11:48:00 -!- ortoslon has joined ##crawl-dev 11:48:11 (or a moth of wrath, but there's none of them where Agnes can spawn) 11:48:12 yeah, yeah, i heard that explanation a few times already 11:48:50 so.. i was just again lucky me.. teriffic 11:49:09 if it was chaos, her lajatang would be identified 11:49:15 !log Napkin 11:49:15 639. Napkin, XL12 KoNe, T:32592: http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/0.7/Napkin/morgue-Napkin-20110115-174156.txt 11:50:22 not sure if chaos even can berserk the wielder 11:50:52 I think monsters can berserk if it's +rage randart and not +berserk 11:51:06 it seems reasonable that chaos could imitate *rage 11:51:09 it does everything else 11:51:18 no milestone for merely noticing her... 11:52:58 i'm just getting tired of these deaths.. i come here to whine and complain a bit, and I hear "oh, bad luck" - every time 11:53:27 something else is strange... xl12, 7h 39m 11:53:32 did you just idle a lot? 11:53:42 should look for something else to play - at least for a while 11:53:54 I recently reduced the "idle clamp" from 5 minutes to 30 seconds, but you're playing 0.7 11:54:18 yes, my char was idle 11:54:43 does browsing menus reset the idle timer? 11:54:47 or does it just count turns 11:54:55 that's the advantage of turn-based for me.. 11:55:46 I have a weird urge to pause even in turn-based games, but not so much in roguelikes, probably because they have no obvious pause button and no background music to halt 11:56:31 I checked the ttyrec: "Agnes drinks a potion. Agnes goes berserk!" 11:57:18 yeah, great 12:00:44 * Napkin shuts up before he regrets * 12:01:12 potions and wands are a regular part of uniques' difficulty... but unlike NetHack's gnomes with a wand of death, they're never an insta-kill. And Rupert is always supposed to berserk (slightly spoily, but no news to you or me). 12:01:28 how is it spoily that uniques cast spells 12:02:37 I mean their specific lists of spells. 12:02:49 that's still not spoily 12:04:47 if the game doesn't explicitly spoil that, it should 12:04:48 i mean, what am i to do? just unlucky to mean agnes with potion of berserk.. which causes me to use up my heal wounds and almost all teleport scrolls 12:05:15 and then just unlucky, that my teleport when meeting rupert takes me 5 steps away from him 12:05:34 kilobyte: I'd argue that NetHack's gnomes with a wand of death are potentially less dangerous than berserking uniques, because you have quite a degree of control over how likely they are to be generated via changing your strategy 12:05:41 just unlucky every single time? *sigh* 12:06:15 Napkin: that reminds me of the old joke about roguelike RNGs: "NetHack's RNG doesn't care about whether you live or die. Crawl's does have a preference." 12:07:49 3 things with a 2% chance of happening? 99% chance they'll happen to me in a row... grrr 12:07:52 damn rng 12:08:16 these situations are merely sticky, you're never supposed to be auto-killed 12:08:42 that's why paralysation lasts just a few turns (and is still a contentious point) 12:09:01 according to the manual, it's meant to auto-kill you sometimes because otherwise there'd never be any situations which were merely very difficult, yet still possible to overcome 12:09:08 and that's an entirely sensible design principle 12:09:28 obviously, it's entirely possible that the probabilities can do with tweaking... 12:09:51 yes, you're not guaranteed to survive paralysation 12:10:05 poor Napkin 12:10:09 !coffee Napkin 12:10:10 * Henzell hands Napkin a mug of cappuccino, brewed by Yredelemnul. 12:10:58 :) 12:11:20 Napkin: sure it is annoying to die late like this 12:11:39 when kilobyte got hoggified, he opened a BR :) 12:11:51 !lg Napkin 12:11:51 639. Napkin the Harbinger of Death (L12 KoNe), worshipper of Yredelemnul, slain by Rupert (a +2,+1 dwarven great mace of crushing) on Lair:5 on 2011-01-15, with 20955 points after 32592 turns and 7:39:26. 12:12:11 Napkin: you'll hate to hear it, but did you think of the Mirror? 12:12:39 dpeg: I did a few tests on this case, after OG17's assertion that "berserk always lets you get out". In five wizmode tries, it worked 0 times. 12:12:42 what's it's chance to succeed? ;> 12:12:47 but no, i didn't 12:12:57 Napkin: the Mirror works completely reliable, it just eats up your piety 12:13:10 but against a single enemy dishing out insane damage, it is perfect 12:13:13 kilobyte, that was elliptic 12:13:16 against a berserk Rupert, you have all your emergency abilities open 12:13:18 also this is ridiculous 12:13:42 you might have too little time for teleport to kick in, indeed 12:13:50 kilobyte: I see that there might be a problem, but the number of kills does not seem to warrant it at the moment 12:14:06 in your situation, I would forget about Injury Mirror too 12:14:20 it is quite a useful tool 12:14:26 ais523: paralysis isn't really a 'creates tough situations' thing imo, not enough choice involved 12:14:34 dpeg: it was just weeks since we made AC work again 12:14:42 TGWi: I was talking about in general, not about paralysis in particular 12:14:47 fair enough then 12:15:24 I haven't been paralysed enough to comment on it, but it seems rather unpopular based on bug reports 12:15:25 also his exact words were "pretty decent" 12:17:04 I've never been killed from nearly full hp when paralyzed, but it always seems to get me down to one-digit or 20ish hp (EV chars, AC ones are nearly immune) 12:17:20 Napkin: you can always play a relaxing game of UnNetHack 12:17:25 bhaak: :p 12:17:29 lol, riiight 12:17:58 relaxing, because I spend the whole day reading spoilers? :P 12:17:59 don't forget to ^E all the time :p 12:18:25 and - no auto-explore - that's actually keeping me away from all other roguelikes nowadays 12:18:54 there are something like three autoexplore patches for NetHack now, because bhaak, greensnark and I all started writing one more or less simultaneously 12:19:10 it doesn't work so well in NetHack as in Crawl, though, because exploration is not quite mindless enough in NetHack to automate well 12:19:46 I don't thikn that NH really needs autoexplore... Shift-running is good enough. It definitely needs auto-travel. 12:20:04 travel works 12:20:20 I don't think it really needs autoexplore either, but I've played using it exclusively to the Castle and it did speed up my game 12:20:20 Napkin: across levels? 12:20:30 oh, don't remember that 12:20:37 no travel across levels 12:20:51 that's the kicker 12:20:54 although it only takes a few seconds going _<. it's still time that could ideally go a little faster 12:21:05 autoexplore would be helpful in gehennom, I guess? 12:21:15 so.. there is no death knight anymore, right? how do i start a yred-char with a reasonable weapon? 12:21:49 Zaba: no, because you're generally going to want to dig rather than solve the whole maze via the paths, if you're aiming to be remotely optimal 12:22:13 it's nice on the vibrating square level 12:22:32 Napkin: the DK will come back 12:22:43 priest gets a better weapon than DK could hope for 12:22:44 but right now, there is only Pr^Y 12:22:59 only option is to do priest, right? all races then start with quarterstaff? 12:23:16 Zaba: also, in unnethack you're having no complete mazes anymore, more open areas and special rooms 12:23:22 Napkin: yes, and healing. Doesn't really befit Yrdy, but makes for an easier start :) 12:23:34 "healing"? 12:23:40 potions, presumably 12:23:49 oh.. 0.8? too unstable for my taste ;) 12:24:00 I don't think that's right 12:24:03 or it's very new 12:24:24 bhaak: you might be talking about Un, but I'm talking about vanilla / Ace (which are the same game with different interfaces) 12:24:29 zin gets healing though 12:24:34 ah, sorry 12:25:24 heh, minotaur is best race with quarterstaves? 12:25:46 ais523: unnethack is still some kind of nethack :) 12:26:04 yep, but it has a different gehennom 12:26:18 so autoexplore's effectiveness there is often going to be different 12:28:59 well, Gehennom shouldn't be fixed with an interface band-aid 12:30:28 gehennom isn't really a bad idea, it just goes on for far too long 12:30:36 nobody would care if it was only 3 or 4 levels like that 12:30:42 but 20 is a bit much 12:30:57 and it doesn't help that all the monsters there are underpowered 12:31:15 ais523: yes to both 12:33:21 what weapons/shields can I use and still be training unarmed combat? 12:35:28 Napkin: if you have horns or similar, you will always train UC 12:35:46 i have beak & talons 12:35:57 so you should train it 12:37:47 i remember last time i have unarmed combat 2.. but using a long blade and shield seemed to have prevented any extra unarmed attacks 12:38:08 so i'm wondering what's allowed to wield/wear to keep doing unarmed attacks 13:16:09 dpeg: DK is coming back? :) 13:16:48 yes, my plan is: CK for Y only, Pa gone, Pr gone (except for HO of B), CK for X, and new background for L 13:17:01 CK for Y? sorry 13:17:09 DK for Y, sorry 13:17:13 ah 13:17:47 and give fighters the ability to start with a long blade if they wish? 13:17:54 (to counteract Pa going) 13:18:12 yes 13:18:17 and Gl too 13:21:15 are there any plans for wr? 13:21:57 it has some nice perks but it's basically a fighter that has tloc for some reason 13:22:06 it's like you 13:22:11 're being bribed to play it 13:22:24 wr is a heavy armour char that learnt apport before zot 5 :P 13:22:24 would work better if it started with a hunter weapon instead of a fighter weapon, imo 13:24:56 you have a pile of darts, that's enough to get started with 13:25:04 it doesn't need to be shoehorned 13:26:02 no plans for Wr 13:36:36 TGWi: imo it would work better if tloc had a useful offensive spell (portal projectile doesn't count) 13:36:54 not necessarily direct damage but just something to let them use MP in combat for something other than running away 13:38:07 Eronarn: malign gateway 13:38:21 OG17: a pile of darts is fine for D1 but rapidly loses steam whereas some other combos remain fairly definitive until at least temple 13:38:53 darts aren't fine until temple? 13:38:59 casmith789: oh i mean one in the starting book / usable at low levels 13:39:50 throwing gets you to at least the first centaur, if you want to go that route 13:40:23 which can be expected on D:5 13:40:28 and you can use a sling or whatever in the meantime if you like 13:40:48 the first centaur is expected around d:3 13:41:00 no 13:41:07 i don't think i would classify darts as 'fine', they're pretty weak. sure you can get to temple with just throwing but without javelins/large rocks it'll be way more of a pain than i think it should be 13:41:12 no? well I get them an awful lot then :P 13:41:31 there can be centaurs on D:3, but 3 is certainly not the expected value 13:41:33 casmith789: you can get them on 3 (or even 1 unles that was finally patched out) but they aren't expected until after 3 13:42:06 I know you can get them on d:2 or even 1 but d:3 has a lot of centaurs if they aren't expected there 13:42:31 i think their depth is 4 isn't it? they're probably far, far likelier on 3 than 2 though i'm not sure the exact frequency difference 13:43:17 it depends on your own level 13:43:27 no it doesn't 13:43:33 i don't think it does at all? pretty sure it's just turncount on that level 13:43:35 for OODness 13:43:40 oh, wrong channel 13:43:45 I thought I was in #nethack 13:43:46 ais523: indeed :) 13:43:57 great joke :V 13:43:59 the conversation made entire sense up to that point 13:44:06 in either NetHack or Crawl 13:44:16 !lg * killer=centaur s=place 13:44:16 14257 games for * (killer=centaur): 4840x D:5, 2423x D:6, 1542x D:3, 1386x D:2, 1103x D:7, 1081x D:4, 638x D:8, 336x D:9, 257x D:11, 196x D:10, 187x D:1, 103x D:12, 61x D:13, 38x D:14, 16x D:15, 9x D:16, 6x Temple, 4x Lair:2, 4x D:17, 3x Vault:2, 3x Vault:1, 2x D:19, 2x Vault:4, 2x Lair:1, 2x Shoal:4, 2x D:18, 2x D:20, 1x Lair:4, 1x D:24, 1x Vault:5, 1x Orc:1, 1x Lair:7, 1x Lair:3, 1x Shoal:1, 1x ... 13:44:24 anyways, with warper, i'm not saying they're crippled or anything just that the spell half of the class and the fighter half of the class don't feel synergistic 13:44:26 D:3 is third 13:44:27 !lg * v=~0.8 killer=centaur s=place 13:44:27 544 games for * (v=~0.8 killer=centaur): 180x D:5, 86x D:3, 71x D:6, 54x D:2, 48x D:4, 31x D:7, 21x D:8, 18x D:9, 10x D:11, 10x D:1, 7x D:10, 3x D:12, 3x D:13, 1x D:15, 1x D:14 13:44:33 reaver is both non-synergistic and also crappy 13:44:38 crusader is good and also synergistic 13:44:58 for a completely pointless comparison: deathlev,count(*): 1) 6,1047; 2) 7,795; 3) 5,692; 4) 8,513; 5) 9,369; 6) 10,279; 7) 11,232; 8) 4,176; 9) 12,126; 10) 13,5 13:44:59 i would like to see a warper that resembles crusader a bit more and reaver a bit less 13:45:06 in that regard 13:45:34 Re is good, Cr is good, and I haven't really tried warper 13:45:36 hmm, numbers are amazingly comparable, they seem to spawn a bit deeper in NetHack 13:45:41 casmith789: reaver is awful 13:45:52 okay sure, we have differing opinions 13:45:52 TGWi: yes, but many D:5 centaurs will be survived compared to D:3 centaurs 13:46:10 casmith789: you're the only person i've heard call reavers 'good' 13:46:12 like, ever 13:46:16 just saying, there have been at least 86 centaurs on D:3 in 0.8 :P 13:46:25 the first centaur packs may appear around d:5. but the odd centaur on d:3 is expected. 13:46:38 warpers don't have a "fighter half," they have a blank slate half 13:46:42 (i mean i am not saying they're unplayable just that they're one of the worst magicuser starts) 13:46:49 I think packs might appear around D:5, yeah 13:46:56 For instance, Re > Cj, Re > AM imo 13:47:02 casmith789: the "odd" centaur is "expected"? :) 13:47:04 because you notice it's d5, then d3, then d4 is like way down there 13:47:18 i don't think Re > Cj at all 13:47:38 Re > AM is more a matter of playstyle imo; AM is a lot fiddlier but i think is better if you are playing well 13:47:40 justify "Re > Cj" 13:47:45 dpeg: if there's a centaur on d:3, I wouldn't be surprised. If there's one on d:2 I'd worry that my main attack spell wasn't good enough 13:48:00 my opinion is that reavers are more fun than conjurers 13:48:06 and why is that 13:48:28 you can pick up a weapon on D:1 as a Cj, congrats you have a Re 13:48:35 casmith789: reaver PLAYSTYLE is more fun, i will give you that - i like mixing spells and melee - but i don't think the background is mechanically worthwhile 13:48:37 re is bad at casting and fighting, while cj is bad at fighting 13:49:04 and yeah you don't need a class for a playstyle that's created by picking up a d1 weapon 13:49:18 you can cast a bit as a Re, congrats you have a Cj 13:49:28 except you're bad at it 13:49:35 you're bad at fighting 13:49:37 while still not being a good fighter 13:49:37 as a cj 13:49:38 how good is weapon use with no skill at all? 13:49:38 yes 13:49:45 ooh nice, a "contributions" forum on the forum. 13:49:51 ais523: decent if you pick a fast weapon 13:49:55 you have 2 less MP and much worse int as a Re 13:50:08 obviously worse than having skill and you won't kill more than rats 13:50:11 that's totally worth a couple of hp right 13:50:40 look. we have different opinions. why is this an issue 13:50:46 nerf other backgrounds, keep reaver the same 13:51:01 nerf races, not backgrounds 13:51:03 start with St 13:51:11 the issue is there's no reason for re to exist 13:51:16 yes there is 13:51:32 "bad cj" isn't really a reason 13:51:34 it's awesome unlike Cj which is just another magic school, and a bad one. ditch Cj, keep Re 13:51:40 though I don't like Cj either 13:51:57 re is "just another magic school" except that it's bad at it 13:52:09 sounds good to me 13:52:11 no-one is perfect at their magic school on d:1 13:52:25 this is ridiculous 13:52:25 unless you're playing DE of course 13:52:30 especially what casmith789 just said 13:52:51 cj is a heck of a lot more perfect than re 13:52:57 casmith789: i want there to be a reaver, i just want them to have a book that is more conducive to mixing melee and magic 13:53:01 if you expect DERe to be better than DECj you're playing the wrong class for the species. 13:53:09 Play MfRe and that is clearly better than MfCj 13:53:19 it's not 13:53:33 because it can't cast 13:53:40 and is barely better at fighting 13:53:42 right and having not played one you know this 13:54:03 maybe I should try it and pick up some pearl dragon armor while I'm at it 13:54:13 if you like 13:54:54 mfre starts with magic dart at good 13:55:12 1.10 conjurations 13:55:56 funny thing is that re is probably best on de if anything since you have some bonus hp and de casting 13:56:01 but hey I haven't tried that either 13:56:32 they also have 2MP rather than 1, DG does too and it's also a great Re 13:56:58 things that would rather play re than cj would probably rather play cr than re 13:57:17 this is a stupid conversation 13:57:23 Mf and DG --> decent hybrids and ergo Re is one of your choices 13:57:35 nobody is saying that re is unplayable 13:58:13 they are just saying that re is a worse choice than cj with the possible, but not convincing, exception of a few combos for very specific reasons 13:58:30 but globally, re is notably worse off than cj 13:59:11 what's more important for a starting character who wants to cast? the book, or a decent skill? 13:59:21 the book 14:00:36 it's hard to cast without a book 14:00:50 i still want to do my Hell Knight proposal: remove reaver, replace it with a melee/magic hybrid class with a choice of 4 books 14:01:05 four books 14:01:35 OG17: yes: dis, tar, geh, coc 14:01:45 so um 14:01:46 get it, hell knight 14:01:47 also this is old news but the elementalists are already suited for hybrids 14:01:50 oh of course 14:01:52 DK, IE, and two reavers 14:02:20 TGWi: no, new books. like the nec one wouldn't have animate dead or skeleton 14:02:43 no pets, mostly destructive spells 14:02:52 not strictly conj though 14:02:56 the necro book already makes for fine hybrids? 14:03:14 OG17: yes, but that doesn't mean that there's not room for another necro start 14:03:25 I think it does 14:03:37 you have that and yred 14:03:48 yred isn't necro though 14:04:06 (zombies) 14:04:25 that's like calling ck[makh] a conj/summ hybrid start 14:04:28 never mind kiku gift-wrapping it 14:04:38 or ck[lugonu] an alternative tloc start to warper 14:05:23 that's not completely off but they're different abilities, yred's stuff is identical to actual spells 14:05:42 [some of] yred's stuff is identical to [some but not most] actual spells 14:06:02 he doesn't get dispel undead or regen or pain that is a pretty big difference i m o 14:06:05 would it help to pretend I never mentioned yred 14:06:09 no 14:06:12 because this sure doesn't need yred 14:06:16 i can never forgive you for it 14:06:18 never 14:06:24 :( 14:07:32 anyways here is an example different nec book: pain, corpse rot, draining brand (after it's fixed), new low-level DOT spell, agony 14:08:15 this is different enough from nec that it would be an interesting start in its own right 14:09:25 probably a bit weak as written there without regen/vamp draining, but i trust the general idea comes through (focus on damaging parts of nec) 14:10:52 if you care mostly about damaging spells, the schools are relatively similar 14:10:55 except for the elemental ones 14:11:05 (ofc, conj is a lot better at them than the others...) 14:11:09 ais523: nobody sticks with just the damaging spells though 14:11:13 this is just about starting 14:11:17 yep 14:11:27 so the idea is that you'd have to find a nondamaging necro book early? 14:11:33 you would not 'have' to, no 14:12:04 the idea is to make it different enough from the necro starting spellbook that you are happy as a necro if you find the hk[tar] book, or vice versa 14:12:31 I don't see why you need two casting hybrid necro backgrounds 14:13:10 OG17: we don't 'need' anything more than wizard, fighter, thief, cleric 14:13:14 however it is fun to have options 14:13:29 slightly shuffled spells aren't much of a fun option 14:13:57 not getting regen, vamp draining, or dispel undead is not 'slightly' shuffled 14:14:10 heck the proposed book only even has pain in common 14:14:23 it's the second book 14:14:54 with a new unnecessary kiting spell 14:15:09 depends how it's implemented really!! 14:15:19 i was thinking you create an area and creatures in it take damage 14:15:22 Keskitalo: Hi! 14:15:35 isn't that what corpse rot does 14:15:56 corpse rot is powerful but pretty finicky 14:16:21 there is room for all kinds of spell effects in the game, even ones that somewhat resemble each other 14:18:02 but is there room to put them in the same spellbook that's otherwise a combination of the school's other spellbooks 14:18:12 (no) 14:18:31 having books overlap is fine, it's just a question of to what degree they should overlap 14:18:42 and we just recently revised the second necro book anyways 14:18:53 so it's not like that's immutable if we find a better way of doing it 14:19:30 anyhow the nec one is the least interesting one imo 14:19:58 lethal infusion is in necromancy now? 14:19:59 whacky 14:20:30 there are enough nec spells to support two nec backgrounds; fire/ice/earth would be more of a problem 14:20:56 and yet fire and ice already have two and a half classes each 14:20:58 we are already straining a bit with cj[fire], FE, etc. 14:21:59 but i do think it's doable and that it would be more interesting to have a third, more different book than two of the roles with the same book 14:22:26 when you say "interesting" I hear "run" 14:23:17 it's not like i have any degree of power here, it wouldn't ever get in unless at least a few devs thought it worked well 14:25:07 tell me that after the kirke nerf goes through :| 14:25:11 what kirke nerf 14:25:26 sort of joking, look on mantis 14:25:55 3196 14:29:08 eh, i don't think kirke is too hard, but i do think hogform is inconsistent 14:29:54 but not necessarily wrong either, i'd just like it if forms in general more consistently handled equipment/item use 14:30:19 if you can quaff potions with blade hands i don't see any reason to prevent them while hogformed 14:30:41 hogform is a negative status 14:30:48 the idea is that it's bad 14:31:31 changing into something else having bad effects is fine but we're using the flavor of being changed to justify the bad effects 14:31:47 whereas there are things that one can change into that don't have those bad effects despite having similar flavor 14:31:57 the flavor can work itself out, bats have similar limitations 14:32:02 never mind cats 14:32:16 cat limitations aren't that similar really 14:32:25 wands vs spiders 14:32:29 i think bat limitations are closer, but there's also spider and such 14:33:10 not saying we should be nerfing hogform mind you, but there is probably more support for doing that than for nerfing forms 14:33:24 and they should definitely be more consistent than they are now 14:33:26 also wands vs decks 14:33:48 felids not being able to use wands is pretty fucking dumb yes 14:33:59 I don't think strict consistency is needed here, this is fundamentally a gameplay issue 14:34:02 heck, just make them require wielding a wand to evoke it 14:34:13 I mean you could turn hogform into snakeform or whatever but then you lose the kirke flavor 14:35:20 i don't think hogform necessarily needs to have a laundry list of bad effects though 14:35:44 though it might need to be used against the player more often / more powerfully if it's nerfed in effects 14:37:02 -!- ais523_ has joined ##crawl-dev 14:37:10 -!- ais523 has quit [Disconnected by services] 14:37:12 -!- ais523_ is now known as ais523 14:39:20 -!- dpeg_ has joined ##crawl-dev 14:39:38 -!- makm0rn has joined ##crawl-dev 14:39:40 -!- OG17_ has joined ##crawl-dev 14:40:01 -!- TGWi1 has joined ##crawl-dev 14:41:05 -!- upsy_ has joined ##crawl-dev 14:41:46 -!- OG17 has quit [Disconnected by services] 14:42:01 -!- OG17_ is now known as OG17 14:43:35 -!- pointless_ has quit [Disconnected by services] 14:43:49 -!- pointless_ has joined ##crawl-dev 14:47:24 -!- TGWi has quit [*.net *.split] 14:47:24 -!- dpeg has quit [*.net *.split] 14:47:24 -!- upsy has quit [*.net *.split] 14:47:25 -!- cw_ has quit [*.net *.split] 14:47:25 -!- MakMorn has quit [*.net *.split] 14:47:26 -!- RjY has quit [*.net *.split] 14:47:26 -!- Henzell has quit [*.net *.split] 14:47:42 -!- Henzell has joined ##crawl-dev 14:48:06 -!- RjY_ has joined ##crawl-dev 14:49:13 -!- ortoslon has quit [Quit: bye] 14:54:56 -!- st_ has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:55:16 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 14:58:24 -!- 92AAB57ZI has joined ##crawl-dev 15:04:11 -!- RjY_ has quit [*.net *.split] 15:04:45 -!- RjY_ has joined ##crawl-dev 15:05:02 -!- MarvinPA|2 has joined ##crawl-dev 15:06:54 -!- kilobyte_ has joined ##crawl-dev 15:07:00 -!- lorimer_ has joined ##crawl-dev 15:07:55 -!- kilobyte has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:07:56 -!- lorimer has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:07:56 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:23:24 -!- eith_ has joined ##crawl-dev 15:30:19 -!- jlewis_ has joined ##crawl-dev 15:30:41 -!- jlewis has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:37:05 -!- kilobyte_ is now known as kilobyte 15:52:37 -!- eith__ has joined ##crawl-dev 15:54:13 -!- herself is now known as herself_________ 15:54:17 -!- herself_________ is now known as herself 15:55:52 -!- eith_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:01:35 holy crap... just got a piece of spam titled "Wall Tile". And inside... actual tile images. Floor tiles, just of wrong size :p 16:03:31 sure they weren't wall tiles? 16:05:27 http://angband.pl/tmp/Wall%20Tile(M6071).eml 16:07:10 kilobyte: they're using tiles as spam now? 16:07:22 Gotta tell our tile masters :P 16:08:04 -!- eith_ has joined ##crawl-dev 16:08:12 -!- eith__ has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:11:01 I am so glad that there are some sane folks on the forum who reply (referring to MarvinPA and minmay etc.) 16:11:07 without them, it'd be hopeless 16:12:54 Where are there so many different outlets for discussion now, anyway? Maybe they should be consolidated? 16:13:28 yeah... 16:14:18 Pedjt: it's a problem, yes 16:14:19 I for one read ##crawl-dev, Mantis and _some_ wiki changes (actually, I read wiki changes via mail but usually just glance) 16:16:36 -!- eith_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:16:40 I mostly just read Mantis in batches, to see what the latest controversies are about 16:16:42 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 16:17:07 hi 16:17:26 -!- eith_ has joined ##crawl-dev 16:17:39 Hi galehar 16:19:57 Keskitalo: They're @?? because I wrote code that strips vault definued monsters from .des files. 16:20:40 hiii napking, galehar, dpeg_ 16:20:59 moin due! up early! :) 16:21:00 dpeg_: you have a tailand no hat 16:21:02 hie due 16:21:10 i think it would be nice to have a 'bulletin' 16:22:02 not necessarily something sent out to people, but something keeping track of who is doing what 16:22:17 we have the wiki page for version goals, but that is a bit clumsy to use 16:22:42 assigned implementables? 16:22:49 what's the policy on vault monsters with a proper name? Are they supposed to be never used since they get taken for uniques (and if so, the docs need to be changed), or supposed to be allowed? 16:23:12 kilobyte: such as? 16:23:43 The policy is "less is better" 16:23:48 Napkin: that is one source of information but even stuff like being able to note 'important' irc convos would be nice 16:24:40 there are currently one. Yiuf started this way (then got buffed), and ../docs/develop/levels/syntax.txt uses them as the example throughout. 16:24:55 like: 'today dpeg and due talked about what new crab features should be added in 1.3' 16:25:02 s/one/none/, duh! 16:26:15 it would lessen some of the perceived burden on having to follow what's going on in irc (i've heard multiple people say this channel is too active for their liking, and i don't think that's true - i think pretty much everyone likes the discussions we have here, compared to how it used to happen - just not like how unwieldy it can be to read tons of backlogs) 16:26:22 kilobyte: I think the policy is kinda "if we like them we might add them as uniques but otherwise it's best not to uuse them". 16:26:39 Eronarn: if we have important discussions about things we will generally post to the mailing list about it. 16:26:45 Eronarn: cf c-r-d posts re; doxyggen 16:27:19 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 16:27:22 due: stuff as important as that, yes, but there's a wide range of stuff that 'should' at least get onto the wiki but doesn't 16:27:28 (i am quite guilty of this myself) 16:28:04 like what? 16:28:13 we do do this for fun, you know 16:28:18 it's not a beaurocracy 16:29:11 the irc chan and the forum are good for brainstorming. When the ideas mature, they should go to the wiki, or directly to Mantis as implementables 16:29:58 i'm not saying people are in the wrong for not writing down ideas, just that we may be losing some good ideas simply because the wiki format makes preserving them a little clumsy 16:30:08 * due shrugs. 16:30:33 i'm just saying that piling more responsibility on people will make them less likely to cotribute.. 16:31:07 galehar: +1, yes exactly 16:31:24 due: i'm thinking, like, a command in irc - !note Good conversation about Zin's cannibalism conduct - that'd just point to that timestamp in a viewable log 16:31:35 from time to time I tell people here or in the forum that they need to move their good ideas to the wiki 16:31:44 if they don't, it's their bad 16:31:47 precisely something with less responsibility than 'copy it over to the wiki', because again, we definitely lose some stuff that way 16:32:18 lose stuff left and right 16:32:28 there's many players out there, with many ideas, some of them good 16:32:36 not all of them make it to us -- so what? 16:32:50 Eronarn: putting irc log on the wiki isn't helpful. We need to summarise the idea (and the controversy if there is one) before putting it on the wiki. 16:33:04 yes 16:33:09 and that's something non-devs can do 16:33:16 and I expect that 16:33:23 dpeg_: i'd rather that the filtering take place at the level of 'this idea is good/bad' rather than the level of 'the person who had this idea felt like writing it down / didn't' 16:34:02 well, if someone has an idea but is too lazy to write it down, who is going to code it? 16:34:10 galehar: i agree that an un-annotated log wouldn't be very helpful, but i think even a single-line note is sometimes enough 16:34:28 Eronarn: I tell people their idea is good and that they should add it to the wiki 16:34:29 galehar: but late at night, there may be only 3 people active in this channel 16:34:34 putting irc log on the wiki is pointless 16:34:42 just yesterday with vladimirdx 16:34:52 IRC logs can be useful for understanding decisions, but often need careful editing to be useful for that purpose 16:35:09 ais523: yes, exactly my point 16:35:10 ##crawl-dev folks can be even mroe expected to wrap up a good discussion and put it onto the wiki 16:36:31 dpeg_: but if you add a !note that an idea is a good one, and then it does not end up with an associated wiki page yet and just a pile of chatlogs, you will remember better which people to harass :) 16:36:58 I am trying to get away from the idea that this is the developers' responsibility. 16:37:01 dpeg_: what was that about using ';' for picking up partial stack? 16:37:02 Eronarn: we are not so short of good ideas to put in place such prventitive measures. 16:37:15 galehar: can I explain now? 16:37:21 yes 16:38:24 galehar: ; is currently the command for "check what's on this square and trigger autoexplore". I propose to give it a third function: "if there's a single, stackable item, invoke partial pickup". Makes a lot of sense, imo, and allows us to give 'g' back its original plain pickup function. 16:39:16 Does that make some sense? 16:39:34 ; doesn't trigger autoexplore 16:40:03 it somewhere states that it does 16:40:15 autopickup 16:40:17 due: most entries in it would not end up being useful, but i think it is wrong to rely on human memory/willpower as the initial screening point in the process of getting stuff done 16:40:21 -!- TGWi1 is now known as TGWiglaf 16:40:22 sorry, autopickup 16:40:23 ; in Crawl is like : in NetHack, isn't it, except it also autopickups autopickupable items? 16:40:26 in any case, it is a rarely used command dealing exactly with the player's square 16:40:29 ais523: yes 16:40:41 dpeg_: that functionality should be somewhere though 16:40:41 I think it would be too obscure, and people would just forget the command exist 16:40:46 hmm, does Crawl have an exact equivalent to NetHack's :? something like xv without moving the cursor? 16:40:54 galehar: that's okay 16:40:58 it's like picking up parts of a single stack... people don't do it that much but it's nice to have the option 16:41:12 we only want to make sure that the console command set is equivalent to the mouse/tiles one 16:41:16 fwiw, NetHack has m, which is euqivalent to Crawl's current g 16:41:22 the alternative is pressing x and examining your own square and then picking up things manually 16:41:24 or you can just type a repeat count before pressing , 16:41:30 let's face it: nobody uses ; anyway -- so we can just as well make it more meaningful like this 16:41:31 yes, but when you need it, you'll never remember to use ; for it. 16:41:37 if you want to pick up parts of a single stack why not # 16:41:44 TGWiglaf: necessary to have the option, in fact 16:41:55 like dropping part of a stack 16:42:09 Eronarn: # is already used for something important 16:42:21 anyway, I think my fix to 'g' solve the problem quite nicely :) 16:43:03 galehar: this whole issue is mostly a conceptual one. Partial pickup of a stackable is rare; it is even rarer that you want to avoid the two-turn solution. But since you can in tiles, you should be able to do so in console. And ; would deliver. 16:43:21 galehar: it requires players to press two keys instead of one quite often 16:43:25 dpeg_: i don't mean the # key, i mean entering a number 16:43:36 I should have come up with ; earlier, sorry about that. 16:43:52 Eronarn: that doesn't work 16:43:56 5 and 0 are taken 16:44:01 (for important things) 16:44:04 dpeg: Since your here, I just wanted to give a feedback on tiles. I dislike the new pickup system where i can't just hit enter to pickup all of stack of say arrows. So if there is a fence I am on that side :) 16:44:13 oh damn.. Elyvilon gets angry when your summoned animals die? 16:44:52 purge: I fixed that today. You can now pick them all by pressing enter or g 16:44:57 ctrl+q *sigh* 16:45:00 oh excellent :D 16:45:13 Napkin: always did! 16:45:22 Napkin: but it will change to a mere piety hit. Sorry :( 16:45:30 Ely and summons never used to mix. 16:45:42 dpeg_: whereas now ely and summons is a good idea because healing of summons. 16:46:23 big ones, maybe, due 16:46:36 dpeg_: I played an Ely summoner once; the constant penance was annoying but trivial to fix 16:46:44 That's why Eino is campaigning for single, strong summon spells. 16:46:56 even with spammals 16:47:11 galehar: so you think there won't be complaints about the current g vs , state? 16:47:12 -!- eith_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:47:33 will gg work? 16:47:48 we'll see, but I doubt people will complain that they have to press g twice after having to enter the number for a few weeks :) 16:48:04 omg - seriously? :> 16:48:05 yes, gg works 16:48:16 you see 16:48:23 can g still show the pickup menu? 16:48:36 if there is more than one item, of course 16:48:57 and if there are only 24 arrows i need to gg? 16:48:58 dpeg_: it's not like people are complaining that they have to press f twice to fire an arrow 16:49:00 galehar: okay, if you say so 16:49:01 Napkin: yes 16:49:17 galehar: you'd be surprised as to what ##crawl complains about 16:49:21 I just feel like the motivation for changing g was very shaky from the start (wanting to pick up only part of a stack seems like an very niche case), but then again I can just bind g to the , behavior if it's necessary to have it 16:49:24 hmm... 16:49:32 galehar: that's different. The point is modality, but I guess it also worked for chopping. 16:49:54 pointless_: it absolutely is, but since tilists can, we _have_ to provide the functionality to console as well 16:50:12 I just think that hiding it in an obscure command would be a little better, but galehar did the actual work, so what :) 16:50:15 i would have prefered that on , instead... 16:50:33 but we'll see 16:50:33 Napkin: half of players use g, other half uses , -- this is a concern either way 16:50:37 can still marco 16:50:41 polo 16:50:46 ok, if we can provide an option to easily swap g and , that should be good 16:50:49 oh, wait, never mind. 16:50:52 people honestly use , ? 16:50:58 sure, I do 16:51:01 i do 16:51:05 with what finger? 16:51:06 gg doesn't work if you're just standing on a single stack of whatever 16:51:16 , is closer to o 16:51:17 if it did I don't think anyone would really care about the change 16:51:20 I press , because I bound it to down 16:51:33 og17: it does in trunk 16:51:52 probably not on CDO, i commited that today 16:51:55 it changed in the past few days? 16:51:57 oh neat 16:52:12 d)rop, f)ire, g)et.. so nicely in a row.. you guys holding cup of coffee in your left? 16:52:51 vehumet burned down the g key ;) 16:52:58 I mostly play with my right hand unless I'm a spellcaste 16:53:05 or is that some nethack habit? 16:53:15 i found it very cumbersome to press , in nethack 16:53:31 we should provide WASD layout too :) 16:53:57 asdfg - all important stuff in one row ;) 16:54:20 interesting 16:54:44 but yeah, no wonder you guys don't mind changing g behaviour then ;) 16:54:55 more importantly, the home row. 16:54:59 for me it's probably the most pressed key apart from directions ;) 16:55:15 will be glad to not have g next to . 16:55:45 dpeg_: you also use . for waiting a turn? 16:56:19 Napkin: i do at least 16:56:49 well.. i'm new to using vi-keys.. that must be it 16:57:14 Napkin: I use . for confirming attacks 16:57:23 probably because it's what NetHack uses and I'm used to that 16:57:32 but also because it's nearer than return 16:57:33 Eronarn: yes 16:57:42 ok, coming from nethack is a different thing, of course.. habits 16:58:10 i'm not from nethack but i use vikeys and , etc are clo3ser to them so are easier 16:58:29 nah 16:58:31 * due intones required 'ew nethack' incantation 16:58:37 ;) 16:58:57 yeah, stop it. you're highlighting my modeline way too much 16:59:50 dpeg_: i lost a promising character in TOME to the 'walking into a wall takes a turn'. it is making me miss crawl :) 17:00:28 do wanderers starting with magic skills sometimes have a spellbook too? 17:00:28 wait, really? 17:00:31 * due tickles bhaak. 17:00:36 Napkin: i believe so 17:00:45 Napkin: i thin kthey are guaranteed a learnt spell or something 17:00:47 and I considered it a huge bug in AceHack's autoexplore when trying to do that with nowhere to go cost a turn 17:00:51 Eronarn: all these games could be much better off if they were (a) open and (b) still developed (where (a) implies (b), of course) 17:01:22 dpeg_: TOME is open and still developed 17:01:28 because it's obviously not what the player wants, and there's a command to skip a turn if you really want to 17:01:40 heh: wanderer with club, but skilled in unarmed. also with flame tongue, but skilled in ice magic 17:01:40 they put out new versions faster than we do, even ;) 17:02:08 * bhaak is ticklish 17:02:09 (which we shouldn't feel bad about - crawl is a lot more organically grown, whereas TOME is at this stage a planned engine) 17:02:11 were there any changes to wanderers in 0.8? 17:02:56 * Eronarn is considering trying to hack up its website code (the online player profiles) to support Crawl dumps 17:03:06 -!- paxed has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:03:09 it would be a good first step if we wanted achievements 17:03:38 Napkin: no! 17:03:53 Eronarn: that'd be cool, yes 17:03:57 my crawl todo-list is massive :D 17:03:59 pity, dpeg 17:04:00 - or if we want to be REALLY out there, a common achievement format shared between games ;D 17:04:17 i like the idea of wanderer.. but it's still too random, in my opinion 17:04:23 Eronarn: "gently carress achievements" 17:04:37 due: achievement for collecting all of the silly hats 17:04:38 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 17:04:38 -!- paxed has quit [Changing host] 17:04:38 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 17:04:56 (how is it you haven't seen the silly hats patch yet, due?) 17:05:10 i'm sane? 17:05:15 I'm vaguely surprised there isn't a background that starts with no skills or equipment, and 100 exp or so in the pool 17:05:28 it'd obviously be a challenge background, but I reckon some players would enjoy playing it 17:05:43 dancer? 17:05:57 start the game by 50 turns of victory dancing :) 17:06:04 haha 17:06:08 hah 17:06:21 victory dancing's a little tricky with no useful equipment, though 17:06:22 ais523: 100 xp wouldn't be nearly enough 17:06:28 Eronarn: indeed 17:06:34 I think it's enough to make it not unwinnable, though 17:06:51 it wouldn't be unwinnable by any means - there are strong d1 races that can do without skills 17:06:56 @??imp 17:06:57 imp (055) | Speed: 10 | HD: 3 | Health: 9-18 | AC/EV: 3/14 | Damage: 4 | Flags: 05demonic, fly, regen, !sil | Res: 06magic(36), 05hellfire, 03poison | Vul: 12cold | XP: 48 | Sp: blink. 17:07:06 and in the long run, it will be identical to any other character 17:07:12 I don't think the game should give you experience in your pool at the start 17:07:31 TGWiglaf: I think I agree 17:07:38 :D 17:07:43 so backgrounds become more important? 17:07:48 TGWiglaf: you used it all hiking to the dungeon. Too bad you only had 25 - not enough for even a single level of hiking skill, and now you're spelunking, not hiking. (And why would spelunking have a skill...?) 17:07:54 ais523: well, 25 exp isn't much 17:07:55 ais523: the 25 XP is meaningless anyways 17:08:08 indeed 17:08:11 it's just enough to encourage people to victory dance right at the start 17:08:29 if it matters, you could roll it into one of the character's skills 17:08:50 i think upping starting skills by >25 XP could be interesting 17:09:27 not by a lot more, but maybe 1-3 levels, particularly in less-core skills 17:09:28 okay, time to go out 17:09:31 good bye folk 17:09:40 o/ 17:09:47 25XP is still enough to get one of your skills up a level which is important when you're starting with something like flametongue and sandblast 17:09:49 bye folk 17:10:29 is an anagram of feb yolk!!! wow, how spooky...~ 17:22:16 18:21 < mikee_> tree dragons 17:23:13 forest wurm: moves through trees and plants (without harming them), is multiple tiles long, can breathe plants. Y/N? 17:23:30 (the idea being that it surrounds you with them when it breathes) 17:23:49 might be a bit annoying cleaning up behind it 17:24:02 Y and Fedhas has a summoning invocation 17:25:22 ais523: perhaps most of them could be toadstools (but some chance of plants, or rarely bushes) 17:25:43 toadstools die in a hit, but you still have to hit them to kill them, and that takes a turn 17:26:12 -!- pointless_ has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.13/20101203075014]] 17:27:22 "breathe plants"...? 17:27:55 kilobyte: it breathes, and plants spring into life 17:28:52 maybe it's just 'growth', or maybe it breathes rain and sunlight, but the core should definitely be entrapping the player rather than damaging 17:30:15 can it do ranged damage easily itself? trapping the player is pointless if monsters don't shoot through plants and there are no monsters in melee 17:30:21 except, perhaps, if there are smite attacks around 17:30:29 ais523: forest wurm: moves through trees and plants (without harming them) 17:30:37 aha 17:31:07 rather than it constricting you, it calls upon nature to do it, while it has a snack 17:38:07 -!- paxed has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:39:24 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 17:39:24 -!- paxed has quit [Changing host] 17:39:24 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 17:47:43 -!- Textmode has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:03:52 !tell due I got the tower of silence vault. I took the gloom path, found the secret door the leads to the dead end but had to look up the other one, killed Jory with greater demons. It was cool. what's with gloom making LOS square by the way? 18:03:52 st_: OK, I'll let due know. 18:06:58 has squarelos been rediscovered?! :O 18:09:32 ? 18:09:47 oh 18:12:44 -!- syllogism has quit [] 18:17:46 -!- paxed has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:19:14 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 18:19:14 -!- paxed has quit [Changing host] 18:19:14 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 18:20:14 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 18:21:33 !tell due I like gloom, I want it to appear more in the game 18:21:33 st_: OK, I'll let due know. 18:23:01 add gloom everywhere 18:23:03 so los is square 18:23:09 does gloom affect monsters too? 18:23:19 symmetrical LOS and all that 18:26:16 so gloom is a distortion effect now? 18:26:36 LOS is always symmetrical save for Ash's scrying (which causes bugs here and there) 18:27:40 hmm, a blindfold of the ostrich would make for a nicely overpowered miscellaneous item 18:28:03 we need ostrich monsters that make you go blind 18:28:36 which reduces your los to 0 18:28:36 and thus prevent other monsters seeing you 18:28:45 and to 1, surely? to 0 would be a massive boost for the character 18:28:50 whereas 1 would be tactically interesting 18:29:02 greensnark, gretell doesn't know about removed guys like norbert and francis 18:29:08 I said "your" LOS 18:29:09 like @?norbert or whatever 18:29:14 TGWiglaf: it's symmetrical... 18:29:30 if it were symmetrical, any amount would be OP 18:29:57 reducing LOS to zero means you can retreat but you don't know where monsters are (except for the darkgrey glyphs) 18:30:46 the game already handles LOS such that it would be a tactical disadvantage and not interface screw 18:30:51 it'd be cool 18:31:29 we currently follow the bogeyman rule throughout: if you can't see it, it can't see you 18:31:45 and that is assumed in many, many places 18:31:46 that's why I referenced ostriches 18:31:58 or, I suppose, ravenous bugblatter beasts of Traal 18:32:00 have people considered changing that 18:32:05 because it's really very silly 18:32:24 OG17: what is silly? The rule, or trying to change it? 18:32:26 those assumptions need to be fixed for ashenzari, I assume 18:32:28 the rule 18:32:40 The rule is an excellent example of gameplay > realism. 18:32:42 it'd also let different monsters have different vision ranges 18:32:49 If you want "It breathes. You die.", you know where to get it. 18:32:59 Angband? 18:33:03 yes 18:33:05 obviously having regular LOS be symmetrical is good but exceptions are also good 18:33:15 blindness 18:33:19 arguably invisible monsters are an exception to that too 18:33:33 although those are in range, you don't know where they are 18:33:46 although several races remove the challenge from that with intrinsic see invisible 18:34:21 the game is pretty generous with racial sInv 18:36:31 4 races, two gods 18:36:43 and..? 18:36:46 TSO 18:36:51 oh, yeah 18:37:30 how many of those four races need it? 18:37:34 I return. 18:37:34 due: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them. 18:37:38 !messages 18:37:38 (1/2) st_ said (33m 46s ago): I got the tower of silence vault. I took the gloom path, found the secret door the leads to the dead end but had to look up the other one, killed Jory with greater demons. It was cool. what's with gloom making LOS square by the way? 18:37:43 spriggans sure don't, and it's weird on vampires 18:37:48 Sp is one of the best races already, I doubt they need it 18:37:55 cats don't either though at least there's flavor for them 18:38:17 well, spriggans are pretty cat-like, but cats outclass them at being cats 18:38:21 as for naga, and a head start on stalkers is probably useful 18:38:41 horrors, that is 18:39:10 !messages 18:39:10 (1/1) st_ said (17m 37s ago): I like gloom, I want it to appear more in the game 18:39:18 st_: Aweosmee. Sorry, I was down volunteering. 18:39:24 is it ever possible for that to be (2/anything)? 18:40:19 st_: Was jory weak or...? 18:40:46 he seemed surprisingly tough, took quite a few 1s to get him 18:40:58 @??jory 18:41:00 Jory (04V) | Speed: 10 | HD: 18 | Health: 110 | AC/EV: 10/15 | Damage: 40, 1505(vampiric) | Flags: 07undead, evil, spellcaster, see invisible | Res: 06magic(168), 02cold, 03poison | XP: 3835 | Sp: crystal spear (3d37), cause fear, blink, brain feed, pain (d17), vampiric draining. 18:41:01 he's pretty powerful. 18:41:13 did you like the blood effect? :D 18:41:35 due: down means at the flood siteß 18:41:49 yeah noticed that 18:41:53 dpeg_: yes, kinda. 18:41:55 TGWiglaf: my patch might actually be not that far from implementing player-blindness 18:42:02 dpeg_: they're difficult to get to but i was helping out at a donations centre 18:42:12 i didn't do it but it wouldn't take that much work and it could be a zin wrath maybe 18:42:42 due: very good, I like you 18:42:49 dpeg_: :) 18:43:28 i think if i extended the current code to players though it would just make them unable to see all monsters 18:46:44 Eronarn: would you see ~ glyphs instead? Or adjacent? 18:47:08 It can easily be too annoying, when the player is unable to do something (cf. paralysis). 18:47:15 How can I see the list of my last ten gamesß 18:47:30 dpeg_: on CDO? 18:47:34 yes 18:47:45 !lg 18:47:45 No games for dpeg_. 18:47:49 !lg dpeg 18:47:50 1134. dpeg the Ruinous (L6 SEWz), quit the game on D:3 on 2011-01-16, with 303 points after 4988 turns and 0:04:01. 18:47:54 !lg dpeg -1 18:47:54 1134. dpeg the Ruinous (L6 SEWz), quit the game on D:3 on 2011-01-16, with 303 points after 4988 turns and 0:04:01. 18:48:18 !lg -1 dpeg 18:48:19 1134. dpeg the Ruinous (L6 SEWz), quit the game on D:3 on 2011-01-16, with 303 points after 4988 turns and 0:04:01. 18:48:36 dpeg_: right now you would see nothing, the same way you see nothing if surrounded by invisible enemies 18:49:01 i wouldn't change that to ~s unless we had that also work for invisible enemies otherwise it becomes advantageous to blind yourself 18:49:07 but there's help with invisible enemies: clouds/fog, SInv items 18:51:19 why is it a bad thing for the character to be able to gain a very short-term advantage from a detrimental status, but a longer-short-term disadvantage from the same status? 18:51:41 ugh 18:51:43 agony ghost 18:56:46 -!- paxed has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:56:47 I guess, since Agony is now a monster spell too, perhaps we can make ghosts keep it instead of upgrading to Torment? 18:57:41 but then, we'd lose such delicious problems like Pedjt just faced :p 18:57:54 -!- galehar has quit [Quit: disconnect] 18:58:02 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 18:58:02 -!- paxed has quit [Changing host] 18:58:02 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 18:58:08 kilobyte: giving them agony would be too nice ;) 18:58:12 kilobyte, there's no problem sufficient slaying cannot fix 18:58:22 DDAr+,DrAE-(XL1,D2),HOAr-(XL3,D2),MfPa+,NaTm+,DGIE+,MuNe+,TrHu-(don'task),SEWz+ 18:58:39 The plog's latest games? 18:58:43 These are my attempts of yesterday and today to get random, viable characters to XL 6. 18:58:48 also, sorry, I meant to complain in ##crawl, not here 18:59:14 dpeg_: someone died to grinder on SA and complained voiciferously :D 18:59:22 due: I saw that :) 18:59:34 kilobyte: I think it's not too unreasonable (both gameplay and flavour) that ghosts are much stronger than the alive players 18:59:39 Pedjt: it's a valid concern: this is an inconsistency that is trivially fixable 18:59:58 torment has never killed anybody! 19:00:00 but as dpeg_ just said, we may fail to fix it, out of spite 19:00:00 well, I didn't know that 19:00:22 ??sorear_reasons[2] 19:00:22 sorear reasons[2/2]: But in a pinch, schadenfreude and misanthropy get most things done. 19:00:36 ??due reasons 19:00:37 I don't have a page labeled due_reasons in my learndb. 19:00:39 DDNe ghosts with torment are a bit rough 19:01:03 !learn add due_reasons Glass, fleshy orifices and black Lua magic aren't enough? 19:01:03 due reasons[1/1]: Glass, fleshy orifices and black Lua magic aren't enough? 19:01:33 <3 19:03:50 !learn add due_reasons A single scream of a player killed by an early unique: a thousand prayers of adoring followers. 19:03:50 due reasons[2/2]: A single scream of a player killed by an early unique: a thousand prayers of adoring followers. 19:04:09 That makes no sense but oh well. 19:04:18 sorear has two so I need two! Pissing contest et al. 19:04:34 ais523: nethack has blinding yourself to make you better at sensing stuff 19:04:37 do you want to be like nethack? 19:04:50 "when I grow up I want to be nethack"? 19:07:06 Eronarn: that's a missed opportunity, really 19:07:21 reducing your LOS to increase your LOS isn't particularly tactically interesting 19:07:27 if it did something entirely unrelated, it might be 19:08:16 ais523: i think there's space for an effect that helps you in some way but makes you blind; i don't think that blindness inherently should be useful 19:14:19 -!- MarvinPA|2 is now known as MarvinPA 19:27:09 blindness being inherently useful is problematic. 19:27:20 I think it hsould just be a negative effect. 19:28:29 due: yes, I agree. But if we add blindness as an ailment, it should be different to Confused, Paralysed, Petrified, Ensnared, Behold _and_ the player should be able to sensibly do something. 19:28:52 dpeg_: agree 19:29:44 -!- paxed has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:29:49 @??imp 19:29:49 imp (055) | Speed: 10 | HD: 3 | Health: 9-18 | AC/EV: 3/14 | Damage: 4 | Flags: 05demonic, fly, regen, !sil | Res: 06magic(36), 05hellfire, 03poison, neg+++ | Vul: 12cold | XP: 48 | Sp: blink. 19:29:54 Mu_: ---^ 19:31:34 dpeg_: i think the best solution is just to make invisible monsters make ~s sometimes for everyone, not just blind people 19:32:31 (or even multiple ~s: this means you aren't sure whether it's one thing or many, or aren't sure the exact square, take your pick) 19:32:50 Eronarn: i like that. 19:32:51 Eronarn: yes, that could work 19:33:00 we could give monsters a stealth value 19:33:08 for example, right now you have to remember where you saw Sigmund before he turned invisible 19:33:19 less stealthy invisible monsters have a higher chance of leaving a ~ 19:33:29 that would work well 19:33:46 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 19:33:46 -!- paxed has quit [Changing host] 19:33:46 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 19:33:47 vampires would be inherently stealthier than say, orc wizards 19:34:13 we already have a nice list of stealth-affecting things for the player 19:34:17 like levitation 19:34:23 @??orc 19:34:24 orc (04o) | Speed: 10 | HD: 1 | Health: 4-10 | AC/EV: 0/10 | Damage: 5 | Res: 06magic(4) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 2. 19:34:31 @??orc . robe of positive energy 19:34:32 unknown monster: "orc . robe of positive energy" 19:34:36 @??orc ; robe of positive energy 19:34:36 Bad item name: 'robe of positive energy' 19:34:40 hm 19:34:47 @??orc ; robe ego:positive_energy 19:34:47 orc (04o) | Speed: 10 | HD: 1 | Health: 4-10 | AC/EV: 0/10 | Damage: 5 | Res: 06magic(4), neg | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 2. 19:34:50 :D 19:35:01 awesome 19:35:18 that's actually the only way for monsters to get negative resistance 19:35:47 -!- Textmode has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:35:55 do you use traps and doors for detection or is it just racial or entirely monster-side or what 19:36:32 entirely monster-side. 19:37:18 strange for every character to have identical perception, I think 19:37:54 @??orc ; ice dragon armour 19:37:54 orc (04o) | Speed: 10 | HD: 1 | Health: 4-10 | AC/EV: 0/10 | Damage: 5 | Res: 06magic(4) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 2. 19:38:49 rNeg checks monter->res_negative_energy() 19:39:00 the others check get_monsterentrry(mons)->resists. 19:39:57 hehe, now you're screwed, due! 19:40:08 became "monster" maintainer, huh? ;) 19:40:09 Napkin: why? 19:40:10 <3 19:40:12 Napkin: yes. :9 19:40:15 haha 19:40:22 :) 19:40:30 can you make it show rneg in game too :P 19:41:14 Mu_: :( 19:41:40 late here 19:41:42 -!- dpeg_ has quit [Quit: zzz] 19:41:45 OG17: i think it would make sense to have some way to affect it though i'm not sure exactly which ways 19:41:57 for example it was discussed giving this ability to canine familiars 19:42:08 that's still a good idea 19:42:36 traps and doors would only work if we reflavored the skill imo, and i don't think that's necessarily the right choice 19:42:50 @??death drake 19:42:51 what reflavor, it's about seeing hidden things 19:42:51 death drake (15l) | Speed: 13 | HD: 9 | Health: 56-100 | AC/EV: 6/14 | Damage: 12 | Flags: cold-blooded, fly, !sil | Res: 06magic(36), 03poison | Chunks: 04hydrochloric acid | XP: 827 | Sp: miasma (3d9). 19:42:56 OG17: the name primarily 19:43:06 @??shadow dragon 19:43:06 shadow dragon (06D) | Speed: 10 | HD: 17 | Health: 106-149 | AC/EV: 15/10 | Damage: 2013(drain), 15, 15 | Flags: evil, cold-blooded, see invisible, fly, !sil | Res: 06magic(113), 02cold++, 03poison, neg+++ | Chunks: 04hydrochloric acid | XP: 3401 | Sp: b.draining (3d21). 19:43:09 Eronarn: canine familiars can already sense invis 19:43:14 call it perception or something 19:43:15 huh i thought death drakes had rneg 19:43:17 oh, lightmagenta is draini? 19:43:23 due: i mean it lending a detection ability to the caster 19:43:27 oh 19:43:32 Mu_: I think a lot of monsters pretend to have rneg due to special checks 19:43:43 yes 19:43:51 TGWiglaf: the checks are in mons_res_negative_energy though. 19:44:02 how do they resist their own miasma 19:44:13 they have miasma res 19:44:25 it's not printed on @?? though 19:45:34 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 19:47:42 if we did make this change it'd be kind of fun to make a very tough, very loud, very invisible monster 19:53:56 -!- Mu_ has quit [Quit: Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place.] 19:55:52 wheee segfault 20:07:37 -!- paxed has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:08:30 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 20:08:34 -!- paxed has quit [Changing host] 20:08:34 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 20:08:35 I found my way to some rgrn archives while looking for 4.1a spoilers, stumbled on what seems to be jpeg's first posting, kinda funny 20:08:52 @??pearl dragon 20:08:53 pearl dragon (08D) | 04UNFINISHED | Speed: 13 | HD: 18 | Health: 91-140 | AC/EV: 10/15 | Damage: 3508(holy), 2008(holy) | Flags: 08holy, sense invisible, fly, !sil | Res: 06magic(168), neg+++ | XP: 5712 | Sp: holy breath (3d36). 20:09:01 hm, no egfault 20:09:41 trying to colour things magenta = egfault :( 20:09:58 @?? shadow dragon 20:09:59 shadow dragon (06D) | Speed: 10 | HD: 17 | Health: 106-149 | AC/EV: 15/10 | Damage: 2013(drain), 15, 15 | Flags: evil, cold-blooded, see invisible, fly, !sil | Res: 06magic(113), 02cold++, 03poison, neg+++ | Chunks: 04hydrochloric acid | XP: 3401 | Sp: b.draining (3d21). 20:10:02 erm 20:10:03 lightmagenta 20:10:11 @?? mottled dragon 20:10:11 mottled dragon (13D) | Speed: 10 | HD: 5 | Health: 17-39 | AC/EV: 5/10 | Damage: 15, 6 | Flags: fly, !sil | Res: 06magic(20), 05fire, 03poison | Chunks: clean/none/unknown | XP: 155 | Sp: sticky flame splash (3d4). 20:10:12 record_resist(LIGHTMAGENTA, "neg", monsterresistances, 20:10:12 monstervulnerabilities, mon.res_negative_energy()); 20:10:17 that causes a segfault 20:10:22 if it's 0 instead of lgihtmagenta, it works fine 20:10:40 look at how (drain) is being rendered 20:10:47 i know 20:11:43 st_: if you want fun times, look up my first sourceforge posting 20:11:52 -!- makm0rn has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:11:56 i have actually mellowed out over the years 20:12:41 (this would've been from probably when i was 19 or 20?) 20:13:01 ((posts from when i was 16 are TERRIFYING)) 20:13:46 -!- MakMorn has joined ##crawl-dev 20:16:02 0xb7f15505 in std::basic_string, std::allocator >::basic_string(std::string const&) () from /usr/lib/libstdc++.so.6 20:16:05 (gdb) bt 20:16:08 #0 0xb7f15505 in std::basic_string, std::allocator >::basic_string(std::string const&) () from /usr/lib/libstdc++.so.6 20:16:11 #1 0x0804e687 in colour (colour=23, text=..., bg=false) at monster-main.cc:88 20:17:36 How did colour become 23? 20:18:08 ah 20:18:28 color += 8 20:27:50 @??mummy 20:27:51 mummy (15M) | Speed: 6 | HD: 3 | Health: 15-24 | AC/EV: 3/6 | Damage: 20 | Flags: 07undead, evil | Res: 06magic(20), 02cold, 03poison, neg+++ | Vul: 04fire | XP: 18. 20:33:22 @??mummy 20:33:23 mummy (15M) | Speed: 6 | HD: 3 | Health: 15-24 | AC/EV: 3/6 | Damage: 20 | Flags: 07undead, evil | Res: 06magic(20), 02cold, 03poison, "drown", 08"rot", 13"neg"+++, 13"torm" | Vul: 04fire, 16"holy"++ | XP: 18. 20:33:26 oops 20:34:54 @??mummy 20:34:55 mummy (15M) | Speed: 6 | HD: 3 | Health: 15-24 | AC/EV: 3/6 | Damage: 20 | Flags: 07undead, evil | Res: 06magic(20), 02cold, 03poison, 12drown, 08rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 04fire, 16holy++ | XP: 18. 20:35:05 @??rat 20:35:05 rat (07r) | Speed: 10 | HD: 1 | Health: 1-4 | AC/EV: 1/10 | Damage: 3 | Res: 06magic(1) | XP: 1. 20:35:09 @??death drake 20:35:10 death drake (15l) | Speed: 13 | HD: 9 | Health: 56-100 | AC/EV: 6/14 | Damage: 12 | Flags: cold-blooded, fly, !sil | Res: 06magic(36), 03poison, 08rot | Chunks: 04hydrochloric acid | XP: 827 | Sp: miasma (3d9). 20:35:31 @??pearl dragon 20:35:32 pearl dragon (08D) | 04UNFINISHED | Speed: 13 | HD: 18 | Health: 91-140 | AC/EV: 10/15 | Damage: 3508(holy), 2008(holy) | Flags: 08holy, sense invisible, fly, !sil | Res: 06magic(168), 08rot, 13neg+++, 16holy | XP: 5712 | Sp: holy breath (3d36). 20:44:01 -!- paxed has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:45:17 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 20:45:17 -!- paxed has quit [Changing host] 20:45:17 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 20:47:02 03kilobyte 07stone_soup-0.7 * r6c227ba50f35 10/crawl-ref/source/makefile: Fix broken debug mode and other defines. 20:53:25 hm 20:53:33 should tweak holy to be yellow and rot to brown, i suppose. 20:55:07 it's getting very rainbow-y 20:56:02 yes 21:28:03 -!- casmith789 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:37:44 -!- evilmike has joined ##crawl-dev 21:39:42 -!- upsy_ has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:57:28 -!- paxed has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:58:38 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 22:01:38 -!- murphy_slaw has quit [Quit: murphy_slaw] 22:16:29 -!- purge has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:32:46 yellow doesn't show up well 22:36:45 it does if you use a real irc client (one with a black background) 22:40:52 -!- casmith789 has joined ##crawl-dev 22:56:27 xchat is a real client 22:57:40 not if it doesn't have a black background!! 22:58:29 what for 23:10:55 -!- paxed has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:11:53 @??pearl dragon 23:11:53 pearl dragon (08D) | 04UNFINISHED | Speed: 13 | HD: 18 | Health: 91-140 | AC/EV: 10/15 | Damage: 3508(holy), 2008(holy) | Flags: 08holy, sense invisible, fly, !sil | Res: 06magic(168), 04rot, 13neg+++, 08holy | XP: 5712 | Sp: holy breath (3d36). 23:11:58 hooray 23:12:01 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 23:12:01 -!- paxed has quit [Changing host] 23:12:01 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 23:12:03 why are holies resistant to rot? 23:12:57 @??angel 23:12:58 Angel (16A) | Speed: 15 | HD: 12 | Health: 82-121 | AC/EV: 10/20 | Damage: 25, 10 | Flags: 08holy, see invisible, fly, !sil | Res: 06magic(128), 10elec++, 03poison, 04rot, 13neg+++, 08holy | XP: 2088 | Sp: minor healing. 23:16:29 due: fwiw i think anything with flesh should be able to rot - this includes some undead 23:16:37 yes, agree. 23:16:46 demonic shouldn't rot though 23:16:49 what causes rot? 23:16:55 miasma 23:16:57 due: why? 23:17:07 because miasma causes rot? 23:17:10 it has always been like that. 23:17:15 "demonic shouldn't rot though" 23:17:16 @??rat zombie 23:17:16 rat zombie (07z) | Speed: 8 | HD: 1 | Health: 6-11 | AC/EV: 0/5 | Damage: 2 | Flags: 07undead, evil | Res: 06magic(1), 02cold++, 03poison, 12drown, 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 1. 23:17:30 if shadow dragons are vulnerable to holy, and ice dragons are vulnerable to fire, etc, shouldn't holy dragons be vulnerable to negative energy? 23:17:41 ghouls rot from just existing so they should rot from miasma too 23:17:41 TGWiglaf: because presumably some demons don't have flesh. 23:17:43 if they don't 23:18:08 evilmike: well, the application is holiness !=natural == rneg+++. 23:18:08 some demons are affected by poison, they're clearly biological 23:18:12 TGWiglaf: hm, true. 23:18:24 heck, some demons even drop corpses now 23:18:47 and if you're listing things that don't have flesh then ice beasts, etc are unaffected 23:18:52 probably it'd be nice to have a is_real_physiology kinda flag 23:19:00 Eronarn: well, natural 23:19:16 evilmike: but yes, hence my comment earlier 23:19:17 were shadow dragons always weak to holy? 23:19:26 I guess that could include demons and some undead? 23:19:26 OG17: yes 23:19:34 TGWiglaf: ds aren't natural but do have a real physiology 23:19:39 OG17: well, not holy wrath. 23:19:51 they're different? 23:19:54 i can't remmeber now 23:20:03 Isn't holy damage cleansing flame? 23:20:04 it varies depending on what's asking 23:20:12 evilmike: yes, and holy flames and a few other things 23:20:12 plants and oozes are natural but we don't necessarily want them being treated the same way as things with flesh 23:20:25 plants and oozes have flesh 23:20:33 depends what you count as flesh 23:20:46 which we are free to decide, of course 23:21:02 if crawl is meant to be a reality simulator then you really need to compile a separate list of what everything accepts 23:21:28 realism errors are better than ridiculous exceptions 23:21:30 the system we have is pretty good, each new thing we add has diminishing returns 23:21:40 okay they are not weak to holy wrath 23:21:47 but i'm not convinced that we couldn't do with a few new things 23:21:49 holy wrath is applied differently. 23:21:50 remember insects + curare, etc 23:22:14 weird 23:22:44 TGWiglaf: yes that was dumb; on the other hand i wouldn't be opposed to an arthropod flag if there were a compelling reason for one (right now the only unifying trait is rpois- i think, and that's not worth making a flag about) 23:23:17 i will make them weak to holy wrath though 23:23:36 should they be, though? They're not undead or demons 23:23:46 ??holy wrath 23:23:46 holy wrath[1/1]: Increases damage by 75% on average against undead and demons. These folks also cannot wield it. Does not hate evil creatures which are not undead or demons. This means that holy wrath is ineffective against hell knights, and some worshippers of evil gods can wield it. 23:23:48 'actually has a body' is kind of worth it though i think because it's reasonably clearly defined, has a good +/++/+++ scale, etc. 23:23:53 crawl already has too many confusing, broad overlapping categories of things 23:23:56 then I'll dump their resistance to holy wrath 23:24:02 erm, just plain holy, rather 23:24:05 @??hellknight 23:24:06 unknown monster: "hellknight" 23:24:08 @??hell knight 23:24:09 hell knight (05@) | Speed: 10 | HD: 10 | Health: 50-80 | AC/EV: 0/10 | Damage: 26 | Flags: evil, spellcaster | Res: 06magic(40), 05hellfire | Vul: 08holy | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 814 | Sp: pain (d13), b.fire (3d18), blink / pain (d13), throw flame (3d8), haste. 23:24:15 @??shadow dragon 23:24:16 shadow dragon (06D) | Speed: 10 | HD: 17 | Health: 106-149 | AC/EV: 15/10 | Damage: 2013(drain), 15, 15 | Flags: evil, cold-blooded, see invisible, fly, !sil | Res: 06magic(113), 02cold++, 03poison, 13neg+++ | Vul: 08holy | Chunks: 04hydrochloric acid | XP: 3401 | Sp: b.draining (3d21). 23:24:18 I think that's best too 23:24:30 though hell knights are the same thing 23:25:03 apparently everything that's evil is holy-vulnerable? 23:25:08 OG17: yes 23:25:09 @??necromancer 23:25:10 necromancer (16@) | Speed: 10 | HD: 10 | Health: 27-53 | AC/EV: 0/13 | Damage: 6 | Flags: evil, spellcaster | Res: 06magic(53) | Vul: 08holy | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 612 | Sp: b.cold (3d18), b.draining (3d15), animate dead, teleport self / b.fire (3d18), pain (d13), invisibility, animate dead, blink. 23:25:23 OG17: anything that matches mon->res_holy_energy() < 0 is vuln to it. 23:25:42 Vampiric and draining attacks, evil spells and worshippers of evil gods. 23:25:51 I'd expect holy and holy wrath to work against the same things 23:25:53 it's just silly that holy wrath vulnerable isn't the same as holy vulnerable or evil 23:26:24 huh 23:26:28 evil isn't really a factor, just undead or demon 23:26:30 I'd think 23:26:40 holy wrath just checks holiness != DEMONIC or UNDEAD. 23:27:03 does, like, cleansing flame deal more to evil? 23:27:07 TGWiglaf: yes 23:27:12 and holy wrath doesn't? 23:27:13 holy wrath != cleansing flame. 23:27:18 holy wrath does not, though. 23:27:32 I'm going to change holy wrath to affect any evil. 23:27:39 But oly demonic or undead will have a chance of flinching. 23:27:39 hmm with regard to having a non-physiology i would probably arrange it as something like +++ = orbs/vapors, ++ = elementals/golems, + = oozes/plants 23:27:40 yes, they're different, but they don't need to be different because it's confusing and arbitrary 23:27:42 really? 23:28:01 that's going to be a pretty huge buff to midgame holy wrath 23:28:02 and make ++ or above non-rottable regardless of res rot just because they don't actually have flesh 23:28:17 midgame holy wrath is weak I'm pretty sure 23:28:25 OG17: I ned to run the numbers first. 23:28:27 it's supposed to be, it destroys endgame 23:28:31 going by tso logic 23:28:39 tso logic is dumb though 23:28:43 so let's not go by it 23:28:43 holy wrath for demonic and undead is += 1 + random2(dam) * 15 / 10 23:28:46 "average overpoweredness" is not a good way to judge brands 23:29:00 I agree but that's the way things are 23:29:04 especially if the brand is one with which you can overwrite your midgame brand at your discretion 23:29:13 actually yeah evil has less holy vuln than demon doesn't it? 23:29:15 and getting holy wrath damage boosts against like deep elves is going to be a big deal 23:29:24 It's += 50%. 23:29:35 OG17: but cleansing flame does extra damage to these. 23:29:48 it really doesn't make sense that it would 23:29:53 I know. 23:29:55 why? they're evil 23:29:56 and the weapon's easier to use 23:29:58 so? 23:30:11 I do not understand, this is so annoying. 23:30:12 the weapon being easier to use definitely is worth noting 23:30:24 The inconsistency is bad. 23:30:25 that being said consistency is valuable 23:30:42 Eronarn: did you do anything with zin's conducts? 23:30:43 so my question would be: how can we nerf holy wrath to compensate for buffing it in this way, without introducing a new difference 23:30:50 Eronarn: fix endgame 23:30:52 TGWiglaf: not yet but i would like to and have plans to that effect 23:30:59 Undead, demonic or "evil" (undead, evil god worshippers, "has evil spell", vampiric or xp draining attack) get extra damage. 23:31:00 this isn't an endgame buff so it doesn't matter 23:31:21 my answer to that question would be: perhaps we could make holy wrath not kick in on every hit 23:31:31 "holy wrath is sometimes decent in midgame and broken in endgame" is a better situation than "holy wrath is bad in midgame and broken in endgame" 23:31:40 Eronarn: alternartely drop it to 25% instead of 50%. 23:31:52 due: that's a nerf to cleansing flame too though 23:31:57 Eronarn: no, it's not 23:32:02 mean brokenness is not a metric of anything; things being too weak is bad and things being too good is bad 23:32:06 Eronarn: I'm not going to touch cleansing flame. 23:32:36 due: it doesn't make sense to add a new difference; the damage percentages should be the same as other holy damage 23:32:38 Cleansing flame = calculate damage. If they aren't vulnerable to damage, it's halved. 23:32:52 oh, okay 23:32:59 so we have three totally different ways of applying holy damage? 23:33:08 If they *are* vulnerable to damage, it's += 50% 23:33:11 what does holy word apply to? 23:33:11 Eronarn: yes 23:33:13 ??holy word 23:33:13 scroll of holy word[1/2]: Deals a small amount of damage to all demons/undead in LOS and has a chance of paralyzing them for a few turns. If you are undead or demonspawn, it halves your current hp because Crawl hates you. 23:33:19 TGWiglaf: hm, good point 23:33:24 demons/undead; that should be all evil 23:33:28 it is literally called "holy word" 23:33:43 (and not anti-undead-and-demon word) 23:33:45 you guys are going about this backwards, everything should be demon/undead only 23:33:49 not demon/undead/evil 23:33:55 demons and undead are evil 23:33:57 holy word is 3d15 + (random2(pow) / 3) 23:33:59 so how about just: "evil" 23:34:12 the problem is that we define "evil" as having "evil" spells. 23:34:13 what about all the evil stuff that isn't demonic or undead 23:34:26 ...those are evil 23:34:28 so, yes 23:34:50 i think it is okay if holy word/cleansing flame/whatever hit evil people harder than non-evil ones, as long as it's less hard than they hit demons/undead 23:34:55 except tso treats undead/demons differently than just evil spellcaster stuff 23:35:06 as far as stabbing etc goes 23:35:07 Eronarn: holy word and cleansing flame hit evil people as hard as demons and undead. 23:35:07 cool, fix that too 23:35:13 due: holy word doesn't 23:35:30 it's MH_UNDEAD/DEMON, i had to go look at it for zin 23:35:34 you're right 23:35:40 holy word and holy wrath are the same 23:35:42 cleansing flame is not. 23:35:45 I don't see why "undead and demon" gets special treatment 23:35:49 also random funny note: holy word has cause fear on the effect 23:35:56 it never kicks in because it is coded wrong 23:36:07 you're right, it won't ever hit in 23:36:12 er, kick in, rather 23:36:37 TGWiglaf: well one can think of this as degrees of evilness; even the lowliest zombie is still more innately evil than the most evil bad dude still-human wizard 23:36:54 Eronarn: Why do we need to scale it thus? 23:36:54 just because the zombie made out of evil 23:36:59 it doesn't help that evil is so arbitrary 23:37:10 two deep elf casters, one's evil because of animate dead 23:37:11 necromancy demon hitler < quokka zombie 23:37:21 it's not arbitrary, it's exactly what tso deems evil 23:37:23 due: we don't need to but that makes sense to me as to why evil should take less damage than demon/undead 23:37:31 (which is arbitrary but that's flavour) 23:37:49 this is anoyingly unclear 23:37:51 I doubt tso is going to pick and choose which of the deep elf gang is worthy of smiting 23:37:58 if they're evil they're all going to be evil 23:37:59 the evil one 23:38:01 tso is cool like that 23:38:03 how about: holy word now applies to anything that is < 0 for res_holy_energy. 23:38:15 holy wrath is 25% extra damage and applies to anything that is < 0 for res_holy_energy. 23:38:20 I think this should go on the wiki, it's a fairly major issue 23:38:27 agreeing with OG17 23:38:31 disagreeing with OG17. 23:38:33 dcss:brainstorm:stupid_categories_of_stuff 23:38:39 if it goes on the wiki nothing will be done with it. 23:38:50 really 23:38:56 what's the wiki for, then? 23:39:03 ignoring 23:39:04 regardless you should see what dpeg thinks 23:39:09 etc 23:39:10 well, yes, i will. 23:39:17 well okay how about this then: can we distill, right now, these different vulnerability formulas into just one sane one 23:39:20 but I'm happy to commit it now and face the wrath later. 23:39:24 if we can't i think it absolutely should go on the wiki 23:39:35 having 2 different ways is not really any better than having 3 different ways 23:39:37 if i push a change to it it makes it an issue that *has* to get discussed. 23:39:41 if it goes on the wiki it will just go on the backburner. 23:39:45 imo make them all affect the same things 23:39:54 and then we can argue about what those things should be 23:40:07 making evil living creatures not extra vulnerable to holy fire etc is a much less drastic change than making them vulnerable to holy wrath 23:41:06 OG17: hm, okay. 23:41:21 OG17: how would you feel about making evil creatures vulnerable to holy word, just not damage 23:41:33 what about holy wrath? 23:41:48 Eronarn: this is still arbitrary though 23:41:52 as in, hearing a holy word still horrifies them, but nobody is coming down and smiting them 23:41:52 holy is holy, I think 23:42:15 and "evil" isn't an obvious property anyway 23:42:17 TGWiglaf: well any decision we come up with will be arbitrary; i am most interested in being consistently arbitrary 23:42:36 Eronarn: in which case you're bad at it 23:43:03 hmmm, maybe the mailing list 23:43:29 "holy" should be consistent. 23:43:34 regardless of arbitrariness. 23:43:51 i should really follow the mailing list, i stopped a while back 23:43:56 Eronarn: nothing much is said 23:44:22 i know, but that just means it's not much burden to follow it 23:44:26 making things consistent by removing holy vulnerability from evil would be mostly invisible to players 23:44:44 while making things consistent by making current holy vulnerability holy wrath vulnerability is going to be a big change 23:45:02 yes, this is true 23:45:05 OG17: smiting evil is cool/fun though so i don't think we should just dismiss the idea of making mundane evils in some way vulnerable to holiness 23:45:24 intrinsic evil != extrinsic evil 23:45:44 "smiting" doesn't need to be so specific, just look at beogh 23:45:47 due: possessing evil magic or the powers of an evil god is pretty intrinsic as far as these things go 23:46:34 OG17: i'm not saying it has to be through holy * damage, mind you, just it presents design space for some mechanical holiness effect 23:47:18 there's nothing preventing future "affects evil" effects 23:47:27 though again it's not an obvious monster property 23:47:30 I will ask dpeg! 23:48:57 extrinsic evil is still evil 23:48:59 which could be dddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddd 23:49:01 it is an evil thing that does evil things 23:49:05 (lol stuck keyboar) 23:49:05 it's evil 23:49:38 OG17: one thing that could be done is shifting anti-evil effects to anti-evil-spells 23:50:17 so that it is obvious that they're evil because they are firing a bolt of death at you or whatever 23:50:48 somehow marking evil things would be nice 23:51:04 for tsoites 23:51:17 holy word could be a negative enhancer for evil magic, perhaps 23:51:23 this is a good reason why you'd limit it to demons and undead 23:52:03 TGWiglaf: i think it'd be nice to always mark stuff that your god will give you piety for killing 23:52:12 for most gods that would just be ridiculous 23:52:20 most gods are obvious 23:52:22 I sent dpeg a long email. 23:52:26 since they accept most everything and the trend is to accept moster everythinger 23:52:41 TGWiglaf: some of them you wouldn't put it on the x view, just in the description 23:53:00 but it'd work well for at least zin/tso 23:53:11 beogh too 23:54:55 oh yeah TGWiglaf you asked about zin conducts earlier: i would like to scale piety gain by just how impure/chaotic something is, and also provide a mechanism for gaining piety by reciting 23:55:28 maybe also a mechanism whereby zin appreciates you silencing heretics though i don't want to step on beogh's toes with that 23:55:37 does zin still dislike komodo dragons? 23:56:10 or has he never 23:56:54 TGWiglaf: current zin dislikes komodo dragons 23:57:06 that's really petty 23:57:18 i fix that in mine 23:57:30 the conducts are similar, but not identical 23:57:37 cool 23:57:43 zin is sort of confused between anti-chaos and pseudocatholic 23:57:45 does he dislike potions of gain stat? 23:57:55 like sickness lizards are unclean, but not chaotic 23:58:20 UNCLEAN UNCLEAN 23:58:32 they're lizards 23:58:33 who cares 23:58:35 they're lizards 23:59:01 it makes sense flavor-wise, it's just that the flavor's sort of muddled 23:59:28 no, it doesn't make sense that a god has a crusade against lizards 23:59:31 the chaos emphasis is more recent, far as I know 23:59:44 sickness 23:59:46 disease etc