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01:51:33 <Napkin> greensnark: probably doesn't support OpenID out of the box, no
01:52:04 <Napkin> TGWi: I'm not so keen on trading the nicely smoothed icons against the cauldrons.. should I really?
01:52:34 <Napkin> seems like the wordpress page about how to compile the source needs some more detailed step by step instructions :-O https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=308
01:52:41 <greensnark> Napkin: We have svg cauldron now, if that helps
01:53:10 <greensnark> You may need to use your mad graphics skills on them if you want variations, though
01:53:15 <greensnark> Or just blackmail kilobyte
01:53:19 <Napkin> hehe
01:53:25 <Napkin> i probably will have to
01:53:43 <Napkin> i'm lucky i managed to get the rss2.0 icons on the trunk page ;D
01:54:07 <greensnark> teh spiffy
01:54:58 <Napkin> still, badly positioned though ;)
01:55:55 <greensnark> Well, the downloads page should use the main wordpress theme anyway
01:55:55 <Napkin> curious if people will actually use it
01:56:02 <greensnark> I have it in google reader :P
01:56:31 <Napkin> well, I at least managed to adjust the left grey border to the same colour as the wordpress :D
01:56:35 <greensnark> Give it a few weeks and Apache logs ought to tell you usae
01:56:42 <Napkin> exactly
01:57:06 <greensnark> Although people using Google Reader will mess with your stats a bit
01:57:11 <Napkin> i made sure the xml is cached and only recreated on demand when a new built is installed
01:57:14 <greensnark> Since it doesn't refetch for each end user
01:57:25 <Napkin> oh, i see
01:57:53 <greensnark> Anyone using a client-side reader ought to show up though :)
01:58:51 <Napkin> the reduced traffic should be a good thing :)
01:59:09 <Napkin> unfortunately, i don't trust google enough to use it ;)
01:59:32 <greensnark> Yeah, Big Brother is watching your feeds :)
01:59:51 <greensnark> There are other web-based readers, but the big G's reader is so darn convenient
02:01:01 <Napkin> i hate to have to go through all their services each time i start using one and read every option carefully, because they are set to sharing by default *sigh*
02:01:12 <Napkin> *could be set to sharing by default
02:01:34 <Napkin> just feels wrong ;)
02:01:59 <Napkin> let's get ready for work...
02:02:08 <Napkin> hey, it's Friday - isn't it?! \o/
02:02:14 <Napkin> BAMM!
02:03:41 <greensnark> Yeah, Reader has buttons at the bottom of each post and if you accidentally click the wrong one anyone on your Gmail contacts list can see that you <3 that post :P
02:03:45 <greensnark> Had to turn that off :P
02:03:46 <due> it IS friday
02:04:43 <due> And I get to go home no,w yay!
02:04:47 <greensnark> We need to post on the tavern to check if there is consensus on the Fridayness of today
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02:30:50 <galehar> hi
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02:49:12 <Keskitalo> Good morning!
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03:23:32 <Napkin> +1 Friday!
03:23:45 <due> galehar: what was the issue with the slowdown?
03:24:01 <galehar> hi
03:24:07 <galehar> it was hilarious
03:24:13 <galehar> just a copy/paste mistake
03:24:23 <due> HAH.
03:24:25 <due> nice :)
03:29:34 <due> Um
03:29:37 <due> where CIA-113?
03:33:47 <due> I just compared eustachio to a bug on the wind-screen of the 4X4 that is erolcha :)
03:33:50 <due> or rather, that erolcha is driving.
03:33:58 <due> @??ijyb
03:33:59 <Gretell> Ijyb (02g) | Speed: 10 | HD: 3 | Health: 28 | AC/EV: 2/12 | Damage: 4 | Res: 06magic(12) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 25.
03:35:48 <CIA-113> 03due * r4c7d83c80d8f 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/builder/uniques.des: Greatly reduce Eustachio's depth.
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03:37:18 <due> hi dpeg
03:37:22 <due> you missed my commit :)
03:39:38 <CIA-113> 03due * r64f1ec2592b8 10/crawl-ref/source/ (dat/des/builder/uniques.des mon-gear.cc mon-spll.h): Tweak Grinder's spells, weapon. Afterthought: halve depth.
03:39:40 <due> okay Grider too now :D
03:40:09 <Keskitalo> Ouch, I thought Grinder was pretty tough when I met him/her/it. :)
03:40:14 <dpeg> due: Euastachio? Came here to congratulate on the move :)
03:40:20 <due> Keskitalo: 33 kills.
03:40:35 <due> Keskitalo: in 0.8. Compare Dowan and Duvessa: 210 combined. Ijyb, 210. Edmund, 110.
03:40:38 <dpeg> yes, because Grinder is slow
03:40:46 <due> @??grinder
03:40:46 <Gretell> Grinder (025) | Speed: 10 | HD: 6 | Health: 40 | AC/EV: 3/11 | Damage: 11 | Flags: 05demonic, evil, see invisible, !sil | Res: 06magic(24), 02cold++, 03poison | XP: 281 | Sp: pain (d10), paralyse, blink, brain feed.
03:40:54 <due> @??shadow imp
03:40:54 <Gretell> shadow imp (065) | Speed: 10 | HD: 2 | Health: 6-16 | AC/EV: 3/11 | Damage: 6 | Flags: 05demonic, evil, see invisible, !sil | Res: 06magic(8), 02cold++, 03poison | XP: 11 | Sp: pain (d8), animate dead.
03:41:08 <due> Well, we can tweeak speed if necessary.
03:41:37 <due> dpeg: :D
03:41:48 <due> dpeg: I saw Minmay close the "Eustachio is really rubbish" Fr from aaages back.
03:42:47 <dpeg> that's a good reaction
03:43:03 <due> dpeg: The solution there was "move to same depth as Erolcha" and so I went and compared them.
03:43:21 <dpeg> I absolutely agree.
03:43:32 <due> dpeg: My conclusion was that, if Erolcha were a 4X4 or were driving one, Eustachio is the bug smushed on her wind screen.
03:57:16 <Napkin> how about removing this screenshot? http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/firestorm.png
03:57:39 <due> I've nothing against it.
03:57:43 <due> It's easily reproduced without the profanity.
03:57:48 <due> (Nothing against removing it.)
03:58:03 <Napkin> apart from the nice firestorm.. "Dumbshit" isn't that appropriate ;)
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04:19:36 <Napkin> https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?t=316!
04:20:39 <due> Napkin: can I just push to cdo:source/moster?
04:21:17 <Napkin> I think I added you, yes
04:21:29 <Napkin> oh, wait
04:21:38 <Napkin> it's not a bare repository - so I actually don't know
04:21:55 <Napkin> you should push to git.develz.org/monster.git
04:22:25 <due> okay
04:22:32 <Napkin> no, haven't added you there
04:22:33 <Napkin> wait
04:22:36 <due> okay :)
04:24:06 <Napkin> done
04:24:10 <Napkin> gogogo :)
04:25:34 <due> thanks :)
04:25:34 <Napkin> someone in here in ##crawl too? please repost the link https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?t=316 there too
04:25:34 <due> git@git.develz.org?
04:25:34 <Napkin> yes
04:25:44 <due> will have to copy changes over
04:26:01 <Napkin> -force? why?
04:26:16 <due> there's some code in source/master that's not in monster.git
04:26:39 <Napkin> go there and push that first?
04:26:49 <due> ... good point
04:27:10 <Napkin> actually, shouldn't be required unless something got reverted or amended...
04:27:11 <Napkin> hmmm
04:27:41 <due> i will rebase it into monster.git :)
04:27:43 <due> worry not!
04:27:48 <Napkin> thank you :)
04:38:12 <due> Hm
04:38:15 <due> Hope I did that right!
04:38:23 <due> :D
04:38:45 <Napkin> probably :)
04:38:56 <due> okay, pushing
04:39:35 <due> yay, loks like I did!
04:39:42 <Napkin> awesome :)
04:40:47 <due> and my first minor changed workked fine :)
04:45:27 <due> yay it worked!
04:48:10 <Napkin> :D
05:01:37 <due> ahhhh
05:01:51 <due> segfault! :(
05:01:56 <due> er
05:02:00 <due> ld fault, rather
05:02:04 <due> /home/services/crawl/source/monster/crawl-ref/crawl-ref/source/beam.cc:5821: undefined reference to `die(char const*, int, char const*, ...)'
05:02:07 <due> /home/services/crawl/source/monster/crawl-ref/crawl-ref/source/beam.cc:5823: undefined reference to `die(char const*, int, char const*, ...)'
05:02:29 <Napkin> lovely ;)
05:04:22 <Napkin> the object containing die() not included in the link command?
05:05:39 <due> pos...sibly?
05:05:44 <due> I haven't  tried to compile crawl recently
05:14:06 <due> kilobyte?
05:16:34 <CIA-113> 03j-p-e-g * r018d95556bae 10/crawl-ref/source/rltiles/dc-mon/ (ettin.png fire_giant.png frost_giant.png hill_giant.png): Add co's new giant tiles capable of weapon display.
05:16:37 <CIA-113> 03j-p-e-g * r29a6f3b720c0 10/crawl-ref/source/rltiles/dc-mon/undead/ (vampire.png vampire_knight.png vampire_mage.png): Add co's improved vampire tiles.
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05:21:35 <due> @??fire crab
05:21:35 <Gretell> fire crab (04t) | Speed: 11 | HD: 8 | Health: 37-67 | AC/EV: 9/6 | Damage: 1504(fire:8-15), 1504(fire:8-15) | Flags: !sil | Res: 06magic(42), 04fire+++ | Vul: 09poison | Chunks: clean/none/unknown | XP: 491 | Sp: flame blast (d12).
05:22:15 <due> I don't know how to resolve the die issue
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05:33:55 <CIA-113> 03galehar * r49f0d5c78163 10/crawl-ref/source/player.cc: Don't count melded slots when calculating stat modifiers.
05:38:56 <Ashenzari> yet another new map (snake ambush) (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3210) by Saegor
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05:53:35 <dpeg> galehar: how comes you can push commits during daytimeß
05:53:51 <TGWi> re: dumbshit, you could easily change it to another name
05:53:54 <TGWi> since it's just text
05:57:32 <TGWi> although that screenshot is fairly ugly anyway due to the floors and darkgrey = blue
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06:07:49 <Napkin> due, wait for greensnark
06:12:33 <casmith789> galehar: wait, including chei?
06:14:02 <due> Napkin: i will :)
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06:23:41 <kilobyte> due: could you tell on what platform you did that?  Especially the compiler version.
06:25:20 <kilobyte> the prototype for die() indeed uses a #define trick to pass __FILE__ and __LINE__, but from what I see from your error message, it is resolved properly
06:25:34 <kilobyte> otherwise you'd get die(char const*, ...)
06:26:08 <CIA-113> 03j-p-e-g * r0dfc7b630452 10/crawl-ref/source/ (tilepick.cc tilereg-cmd.cc): Actually use the grate tile for DNGN_GRATE.
06:26:10 <CIA-113> 03j-p-e-g * ra15a78951ceb 10/crawl-ref/source/ (dat/des/tutorial/tutorial_lesson1.des ouch.cc): During the tutorial, death doesn't trigger inventory and hiscore.
06:26:13 <due> kilobyte: CDO :)
06:26:33 <due> kilobyte: source/monster
06:26:50 <kilobyte> aaah!
06:27:21 <kilobyte> let's try cleaning first, the makefile for monster is buggy
06:27:42 <kilobyte> fatal: '/var/cache/git/crawl-ref.git' does not appear to be a git repository
06:28:17 <kilobyte> are you compiling, or can I?
06:28:55 <due> you can clean
06:28:57 <due> erm
06:28:59 <due> you cna compile
06:29:09 <due> i just added a (holy) flag for monster damage
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06:30:47 <kilobyte> CRAWL_OBJECTS := $(CRAWL_OBJECTS:dbg-asrt.o=) libunix.o
06:30:57 <due> ah, broken makefile?
06:31:10 <kilobyte> monster's makefile explicitely excludes dbg-asrt.cc from compilation
06:31:15 <due> i see
06:41:05 <CIA-113> 03kilobyte * r420e55a4ce5e 10/crawl-ref/source/dbg-asrt.cc: Fix non-ASSERTS builds.
06:41:15 <due> <3
06:41:29 <due> are you recompiling monster or...?
06:44:03 <kilobyte> not yet
06:44:12 <due> okay
06:44:55 <kilobyte> hrm, it doesn't update
06:46:00 <due> if you make clean it should pull from sf
06:46:07 <kilobyte> (work, sorry)
06:46:13 <kilobyte> it doesn't:
06:46:18 <kilobyte> fatal: '/var/cache/git/crawl-ref.git' does not appear to be a git repository
06:46:33 <due> huh...
06:46:36 <due> Napkin?
06:58:26 <Vandal> Do you guys have a name, like the DC:SS Team?
06:58:44 <Vandal> Collectively, if someone was trying to give credit to the "Developer" of Crawl in a review
06:58:52 <Vandal> (I'm writing one)
06:59:14 <casmith789> DCSS devteam or something
06:59:54 <Zaba> dcss devteam sounds fine
07:00:29 <galehar> dpeg: I came back at my place for lunch
07:01:40 <due> DCSS Development Tea.
07:01:42 <due> ... Team.
07:02:00 <due> It's officially DCSS too, not DC:SS.
07:02:10 <Vandal> due that is what I ended up using XD
07:02:12 <Vandal> ah ok
07:02:18 <galehar> casmith789: the fix is just about not counting bonus to attributes (eg: glove of strength) from melded items. You still get Chei bonus from melded ponderous items.
07:02:23 <Vandal> Sample line of my review:
07:02:25 <Vandal> "the game is a labor of love, developed by people who can't get enough of being mauled by kraken, dissolved by slime, crispified by dragons, and clubbed to death by the patron saint of orcs in the darkest, meanest of dungeons."
07:02:25 <casmith789> Ah, good
07:03:40 <galehar> Vandal: awesome :)
07:03:45 <galehar> what are you writing that for?
07:04:29 <Vandal> Trying to become an editor for a website called blisteredthumbs
07:04:36 <Vandal> uh.. .com I think
07:05:09 <Vandal> If 2 staff members approve a user submitted review they will post it, if you submit 5 approved reviews you become staff
07:05:30 <Vandal> One of the things they specifically asked for were obscure game reviews
07:05:32 <Vandal> :D
07:07:16 <galehar> cool
07:08:16 <Napkin> kilobyte, due: what gave that error?
07:09:54 <Napkin> nothing should access /var/cache/git directly
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07:17:53 <due> Napkin: I do't know what the issue was, sorry
07:17:55 <due> sleep, night!
07:18:04 <Napkin> g'night, due
07:18:09 <Napkin> I'll check with kilobyte :)
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07:49:46 <kilobyte> Napkin: source/monster wants to pull from /var/cache/git/crawl-ref.git
07:50:19 <Napkin> no, it doesn't
07:50:30 <Napkin> it pulls from via ssh
07:50:44 <Napkin> crawl@ipx14623:~/source/monster> git remote show local
07:50:44 <Napkin> * remote local
07:50:44 <Napkin> Fetch URL: ssh://git@git.develz.org/monster.git
07:50:44 <Napkin> Push  URL: ssh://git@git.develz.org/monster.git
07:50:52 <Napkin> ---
07:51:02 <Napkin> that's why I'm wondering where you got that error from
07:51:37 <kilobyte> crawl@ipx14623:~/source/monster/crawl-ref> git remote show origin
07:51:37 <kilobyte> fatal: '/var/cache/git/crawl-ref.git' does not appear to be a git repository
07:51:46 <kilobyte> the subdir, not main monster code
07:52:36 <Napkin> will you fix it?
07:53:30 <Napkin> ssh://git@git.develz.org/crawl-ref.git is the right choice
07:54:41 <Napkin> disabled access by world when I installed gitolite - otherwise the personal repositories wouldn't be very personal
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08:16:11 <Keskitalo> The doxygen stuff looks <3
08:19:21 <kilobyte> Napkin: it works, thanks
08:22:32 <Napkin> can I have a normal game just for once?!
08:23:04 <Napkin> giving maurice a wand of polymorph is just.. bloody shit
08:23:49 <kilobyte> that's cruel... first no editor installed, then when I try to commit the fixes (on the CDO box), I get something horrible slapped in my face, :q! or any variant doesn't seem to work, had to ssh again and kill the beast :p
08:24:22 <Napkin> pardon? what are you talking about?
08:24:24 <dpeg> kilobyte: ^K X perhaps?
08:24:52 <dpeg> Napkin: this is normal. You are craving for exceptionally empty games :P
08:25:06 <Napkin> EDITOR=/usr/bin/vim
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08:25:53 <kilobyte> dpeg: emacs is just as bad :p
08:26:10 <kilobyte> in _this_ holy war, I oppose both sides!
08:27:06 <kilobyte> @??fire crap
08:27:07 <Gretell> unknown monster: "fire crap"
08:27:08 <kilobyte> @??fire crab
08:27:08 <Gretell> fire crab (04t) | Speed: 11 | HD: 8 | Health: 37-67 | AC/EV: 9/6 | Damage: 1504(fire:8-15), 1504(fire:8-15) | Flags: !sil | Res: 06magic(42), 04fire+++ | Vul: 09poison | Chunks: clean/none/unknown | XP: 491 | Sp: flame blast (d12).
08:27:17 <kilobyte> updated monster works, too
08:27:25 <dpeg> kilobyte: emacs would be ^x ^c though :)
08:27:46 <dpeg> But yes, it is bad design is something does not tell you how to get out or at least get help.
08:28:10 <kilobyte> kill -9 is the universal route out
08:28:21 <bhaak> not killall? :-)
08:29:02 <kilobyte> not on a box like CDO where someone else could be logged in as "crawl" as well
08:32:20 <dpeg> bhaak: it is pointless to talk to Krice. He has one of this nihilistic fits
08:33:20 <dpeg> bhaak: also, did you recall Simon on rgrn from days of old? Whenever I read a posting like his, I wonder if it's a clever troll :)
08:36:28 <bhaak> dpeg: krice has some strange train of thoughts. I find it itneresting to see how he justifies some of his claims
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08:37:08 <dpeg> Napkin: wb
08:37:21 <dpeg> bhaak: I think he is sad and alone, and should be left to his own.
08:37:23 <Napkin> and a bug: he zapped me like 15 times: a wand of polymorph other {zapped: 2}
08:37:53 <dpeg> Napkin: there is this bug tracker somewhere :)
08:38:01 <dpeg> good call
08:38:19 <bhaak> dpeg: he may be sad and alone, but he's the one with the provocating postings
08:38:35 * kilobyte ponders the set of mutations Napkin's char has.
08:38:37 <dpeg> one more reason to ignore
08:38:44 <MarvinPA> Napkin: if he zaps you while invisible the zaps don't get counted
08:38:47 <dpeg> kilobyte: one of them could be the inability to count
08:38:51 <bhaak> dpeg: Simon has posted several times across the years to rgrn
08:39:06 <dpeg> bhaak: okay, so veterans recognised him
08:39:19 <kilobyte> dpeg: <3
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08:44:44 <greensnark> Hey I don't remember Simon
08:45:07 <greensnark> So we're not talking veterans here but ossified corpses who remember him
08:45:34 * bhaak slaps greensnark around the solar system with a large satellite!
08:45:40 <greensnark> :D
08:45:48 <dpeg> greensnark: we're talking about the 90's, not the 70's when you posted on rgrn!
08:46:04 <bhaak> you too could use the google groups profile search
08:46:11 <greensnark> Unlike some people on this channel who shall remain nameless, I was not born in the 70s
08:46:16 <greensnark> Well, not until the very end of the 70s
08:46:19 <dpeg> hehe
08:46:40 <dpeg> greensnark: perhaps you could use the Julian calendar to achieve not being born in the 70s? :)
08:46:55 <dpeg> bhaak: thank Xom I don't use GG for news.
08:47:12 <bhaak> greensnark is younger than me?
08:47:34 <dpeg> bhaak: don't trust him! Those Indians always get confused with their many lives.
08:48:08 <dpeg> "Is it this life or my previous one where I'm a beetle?"
08:48:09 <bhaak> so he only reincarnated in the late 70s?
08:48:13 * greensnark is not a felid.
08:48:44 <greensnark> bhaak: I thought we already established that on the old fogy scale you and dpeg totally beat me :P
08:49:06 <greensnark> I'm pretty sure J. Ali has both of you beat though, so you're in good company
08:49:15 <greensnark> Also as far as I know Cthulhu predates all of you
08:49:19 <dpeg> Sad but true, all hindi are happy undead. I wonder what the pope has to say on this.
08:49:21 <greensnark> So good company
08:50:19 <bhaak> greensnark: dpeg ofc, but I'm still yound and fresh and sounds much younger than you on IRC
08:51:09 <dpeg> This is because they add virgin blood to tap water in Switzerland.
08:52:37 * Adeon gives suspicious looks to everyone
08:53:14 <bhaak> that's only a myth! completely unfounded rumor!
08:53:29 <dpeg> Adeon: superiority in ##crawl-dev is established by youth, unlike certain cultures which value wisdom and tradition.
08:53:32 <bhaak> do you know how hard it is to find virgins in these times?
08:53:47 <kilobyte> the diary of Elizabeth Bathory exists, but the Slovakian govt still refuses to publish it... so we don't know the results of her study about whether it's better to drink it or bathe in it
08:57:31 <greensnark> bhaak: No way! I can sound way more immature than you
08:58:02 <greensnark> I have you comprehensively beaten in the immaturity department.
08:58:10 <greensnark> Can't quite compete with the new blood in #un though
08:58:15 <greensnark> Like Mr. K. :)
08:58:43 <dpeg> greensnark: K. has an unfair advantage by being Finnish.
08:58:54 <greensnark> dpeg: I'm referring to the Italian K
08:59:08 <greensnark> I'm having trouble thinking of an immature Finnish K in #unnethack
08:59:13 <bhaak> I've got italian blood, too!
08:59:44 <greensnark> bhaak: In a vial on your desk?
08:59:54 <greensnark> "I have the heart of a child. I keep it in a jar on my desk."
09:00:25 <bhaak> I once used a saw to split the head of an unfortunate being
09:00:51 <bhaak> since then I know that I'm no zombie. The brain didn't look tasty
09:02:04 <dpeg> bhaak: that being was a strawman?
09:02:24 <bhaak> dpeg: a dead deer
09:03:07 <dpeg> bhaak: glad you didn't do it to a live one!
09:03:53 <bhaak> live ones are not so cooperative
09:04:07 <dpeg> 666.  167959 dpeg       MDFi-17 shot by a centaur warrior (Vault:4)
09:04:25 <dpeg> took careful planning to achieve precisely that spot
09:04:29 <Napkin> Does Yredelemnul also like it, when I cast the spell Animate Dead to raise the dead? Or do I have to use his abilities to gain piety?
09:05:31 <dpeg> Napkin: I don't think you gain piety by either action...
09:05:48 <Napkin> oh?
09:06:10 <Napkin> his description gives a different impression then: "Yredelemnul appreciates killing, but
09:06:13 <Napkin> prefers corpses to be put to use rather than sacrificed."
09:07:10 <Napkin> and here i am.. animating remains all the time, thinking it'll make Yred happy :-O
09:07:14 <dpeg> Napkin: that just means that there's no corpse sacrifice, so that you can use the dead for something else :)
09:07:20 <Napkin> even useless skeletons...
09:07:35 <dpeg> poor Napkin, perhaps we should rephrase this
09:07:37 <Keskitalo> I've found that a bit misleading before too
09:07:50 <dpeg> any suggestion?
09:08:14 <Keskitalo> Just "Yredelemnul appreciates killing." ?
09:08:40 <Napkin> difficult to keep that flavor without giving the impression it gives piety
09:08:55 <dpeg> yes, cannot come up with something good either
09:09:05 <Napkin> giving piety would be too overpowered i assume?
09:09:10 <Napkin> :>
09:10:27 <Napkin> also, please add a some check to spawning books in the dungeon.. out 2 out of 3 games I find my starting book again as first book - or is that by design?
09:11:03 * Napkin is in complainy mood.. maybe a coffee might help.. laters o/
09:11:12 <Keskitalo> !coffee Napkin
09:11:13 * Henzell hands Napkin a cup of soy latte, brewed by Makhleb.
09:11:16 <Napkin> :)
09:12:03 <bhaak> random books are random :)
09:12:11 <Keskitalo> I think giving piety would be a bit tedious for Yred.. not sure if not any more tedious than sacrifice though
09:12:21 <dpeg> Keskitalo: no, not really
09:12:32 <Keskitalo> more buttons to press :P
09:13:06 <Keskitalo> hehe, could take out the killing piety put have raising piety
09:13:19 <dpeg> Keskitalo: Yrdy's power is very convenient now... it turns from single to mass undeadening at * or ** piety.
09:13:33 <Keskitalo> yeah
09:16:36 <CIA-113> 03chriscampbell89 * r39c199dfc691 10/crawl-ref/source/output.cc: Fix iridescent scales description again
09:18:07 <dpeg> Was it always the case that opening doors stopped autotravel?
09:19:35 <kilobyte> uhm, no
09:19:45 <CIA-113> 03kilobyte * r4896ac9628c0 10/crawl-ref/git-hooks/crawl-ref-cia: Teach CIA about MarvinPA.
09:20:20 <greensnark> Oh, the CIA knows all about MarvinPA now
09:20:39 <greensnark> I bet he'll have fun next time he goes through airport securiry
09:22:44 <greensnark> !tell MarvinPA "kilobyte * r4896ac9628c0 /crawl-ref/git-hooks/crawl-ref-cia: Teach CIA about MarvinPA." Be very afraid.
09:22:44 <Henzell> greensnark: OK, I'll let MarvinPA know.
09:26:40 <Napkin> dpeg: single: *, mass: ***
09:28:50 <dpeg> Napkin: thanks
09:29:06 <dpeg> kilobyte: it is the case now
09:31:00 <dpeg> b0rsuk is again playing! I guess he'll shortly bless the wiki with new comments.
09:32:42 <galehar> about point blank ranged attacks? ;)
09:32:45 <Napkin> he chatted me up while playing
09:33:05 <Napkin> i think he wants to create a fps in DC universe
09:34:14 <dpeg> true glorious sick idea :)
09:34:30 <dpeg> galehar: I think he is a proponent of radical ideas
09:36:05 <galehar> autoexplore stop at doors even when setting explore_stop to an empty string
09:36:32 <galehar> I think it used to stop only when the door creaked
09:40:43 <Napkin> geez... some unfriendly diety just turned me into a grid bug in POWDER.. and i've been resting 10 times already and won't tranform back :-O can't even open doors
09:41:15 <greensnark> I like the always-involved gods in powder
09:41:28 <Napkin> good thing is, i managed to close the door of a room to sleep/rest without interruption.. and now i can't get out anymore :D
09:41:55 <greensnark> tmux is awesome
09:42:01 <Napkin> welcome to facebook!
09:42:02 <greensnark> Napkin: Have you tried tmux?
09:42:11 <Napkin> yes, but it uses a lot of cpu
09:42:13 <greensnark> Oh, I think kilobyte has used tmux
09:42:17 <greensnark> Napkin: Oh
09:42:20 <greensnark> Didn't notice that
09:42:52 <Napkin> yeah, eifel was trying it out on CDO.. up to 30% of a 2.4ghz core
09:42:59 <greensnark> Whoa
09:43:11 <greensnark> How on earth does it use so much?
09:43:22 <greensnark> I definitely haven't noticed that kind of behaviour.
09:43:37 <greensnark> But I've been running builds which don't leave much CPU to anything else :P
09:43:51 <Napkin> hehe
09:43:58 <greensnark> Did you use the Debian packaged tmux? I think that's pretty old
09:44:10 <greensnark> Something like 1.1 while 1.4 is the latest
09:44:18 <Napkin> 1.3-2~bpo50+1
09:44:25 <greensnark> Ah
09:44:39 <Napkin> 1.4 is new then, i think. last i checked it was still 1.3 (a few months back)
09:45:06 <Napkin> i imported the cvs (!!!) source into git to backport a patch to make vt100 borders show up properly in unicode environment
09:45:10 <greensnark> Hehe
09:45:12 <Napkin> but never came around to doing that
09:45:52 <Napkin> the programmer of tmux also seemed like an extremist and crusader to me..
09:46:05 <greensnark> Really?
09:46:11 <greensnark> What does he say? :)
09:46:31 <Napkin> but this 30% cpu usage was what made me not try it ;)
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09:47:03 <greensnark> I started using tmux after I couldn't make screen set the active window title to the terminal titlebar :P
09:47:23 <greensnark> Also I wanted to use a different color for window titles that are running something and not at the shell
09:47:24 <Napkin> oh, just some argument on a ML
09:47:38 <greensnark> And that was trivial on tmux and how-the-hell-do-I-do-that on screen :)
09:47:45 <Napkin> hehe
09:48:03 <greensnark> I've been brainwashing some colleagues at work into using screen and the first thing they wanted was to set the active window title on the titlebar :(
09:48:17 <Napkin> lol
09:48:33 <greensnark> screen will set the whole damn hardstatus line on the titlebar :P Couldn't figure out how to set just the active window title
09:49:17 <greensnark> Napkin: The worst thing was that they used terminal tabs instead of screen :P
09:49:20 <Napkin> not sure that's possible.. my main goal is to disable all titlebar modifying usually ;)
09:49:41 <Napkin> well, terminal tabs can be useful
09:49:45 <greensnark> Napkin: Easy in tmux!
09:50:02 <Napkin> like when you need to drag a tab out of the terminal to compare content of 2 terminals
09:50:15 <greensnark> And that too I figured it out within 10 minutes of looking at the manpage
09:50:28 <Napkin> which is possible in screen too - but switching between the windows is cumbersome
09:50:29 <kilobyte> greensnark: I prefer screen
09:50:32 <greensnark> Napkin: Well, you can open a second terminal and reattach :P
09:50:42 <greensnark> kilobyte: Why's that?
09:50:45 <kilobyte> however, you can beat some sense into tmux
09:51:10 <kilobyte> tmux is pretty buggy though, and often locks up
09:51:38 <greensnark> kilobyte: Yeah, I got a few hangs that googling suggested were libevent config bugs on Mac
09:51:40 <Napkin> oh, yes, eifeltrampel was reporting lags
09:52:06 <greensnark> Hmm, I'll try it for a few days :)
09:52:13 <kilobyte> screen>tmux: more stable, reasonable settings without configuration; tmux>screen: support for Unicode > 16 bits, attaching a session twice
09:52:28 <greensnark> I was completely intoxicated by how easy it was to configure tmux compared to screen
09:52:38 <greensnark> man tmux -> done
09:52:58 <greensnark> Although, I uh, used .tmuxrc first and wondered why it didn't work :P
09:53:08 <Napkin> why didn't it?
09:53:16 <Napkin> (just in case i will try it after all)
09:55:30 <greensnark> Napkin: the .rc is .tmux.conf, apparently :)
09:55:39 <Napkin> ah
09:55:43 <Napkin> roger that :)
09:55:51 <greensnark> At first I was like "Screw this, it's completely ignoring what I'm saying!" and then I read the manpage again :p
09:56:55 <kilobyte> another upside of screen: it doesn't require any escaping to specify the command to do: 'screen make debug CFOPTIMIZE="-O3 -pg"' vs 'tmux -c "make debug CFOPTIMIZE=\"-O3 -pg\""'
09:57:59 <kilobyte> tmux has that multi-pane thing, but 1. I never use any non-maximized windows ever, and 2. you could just open multiple terminals
10:00:35 <greensnark> Yeah, I don't use the pane thing
10:04:35 <Napkin> I would use non-maximized windows.. how easy is it to switch betweem them?
10:05:32 <greensnark> No idea, I've never bothered with non-maxed windows :)
10:07:33 <kilobyte> do you have a font that can show U+1F4A9: 💩 ?
10:07:57 <Napkin> <- no, Lucida Console
10:08:47 <kilobyte> well, most terminals can substitute characters from any font found on the system
10:09:12 <kilobyte> save for PuTTY and ones that are stuck with bitmap fonts (xterm, rxvt)
10:09:42 <kilobyte> still, Unicode6 fonts are very rare yet
10:10:09 <Napkin> what about DejaVu?
10:10:09 <kilobyte> so you lose such important characters as kitteh: 🐈 or hamburger: 🍔
10:10:43 <Napkin> lol, most important, yes ;)
10:11:07 <Napkin> nope, DejaVu doesn't show them either
10:11:11 <kilobyte> doesn't have them, and the focus of DejaVu doesn't lie in encoding everything, but in just basic letters for all currently spoken languages
10:11:19 <Napkin> at least not in putty
10:12:22 <kilobyte> the only font I know is Symbola -- but I last searched just a week after Unicode 6.0 was released, so I bet it changed
10:12:57 <Napkin> thank god i don't have to deal with that stuff too often
10:33:53 <Eronarn> kilobyte: you can attach to a session twice in screen, unless i'm misunderstanding what you mean
10:53:04 <kilobyte> Eronarn: you can?  Oh, that's new thing ("new" as in "after I last read the docs, which is 12-15 years ago").
10:53:22 <felirx> -x
10:53:29 <felirx> lest you attach to a session without detaching it
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11:10:45 <Eronarn> yeah, i use -x to be on my laptop and my desktop at the same time
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11:20:52 <Ashenzari> Elixir card casts regeneration even while in lich form (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3211) by Svankensen
11:25:54 <Ashenzari> Naga Transmuter punching while blade hands active (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3212) by Rimtar
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11:54:13 <Napkin> this screen -x is actually the feature that lead me to screen in the first place - shared sessions are really convenient :)
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12:27:32 <Napkin> taking apache down for a minute
12:31:04 <Napkin> done.
12:31:31 <Napkin> really didn't expect 1gb to be too little for /var/log
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12:36:01 <Zaba> Napkin, out of curiousity, what filesystem do you use for it?
12:36:23 <Napkin> at the time, ext3 was the only choice
12:36:50 <Zaba> why did you have to take apache down?
12:36:56 <Napkin> reiser had just been decommissioned.. and xfs still had this file-size-0 problem
12:37:23 <Napkin> ln -s /var/www/log /var/log/apache2 (different filesystems)
12:40:26 <Napkin> didn't expect to ever resize.. so no lvm
12:40:52 <Napkin> and while resizing ext3 is possible, moving is a completely different topic
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12:55:50 <CIA-113> 03j-p-e-g * r9ab6b7c4cd58 10/crawl-ref/source/ (dat/des/tutorial/tutorial.des tilepick.cc): Assign the training dummy a fixed tile.
12:55:51 <CIA-113> 03j-p-e-g * r2ec002cba01a 10/crawl-ref/source/ouch.cc: Tweak tutorial death message.
12:55:52 <CIA-113> 03j-p-e-g * r4d29b77f0d78 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/tutorial/tutorial_lesson2.des: Add the beginning of the second tutorial map: Monsters/combat.
13:00:42 <dpeg> hey, lesson 2
13:02:50 <monky> speaking of tutorial, is it still impossible to access on the servers?
13:04:53 <dpeg> I'd think so
13:05:06 <dpeg> it needs the same setup work as sprint or defence
13:07:19 <felirx> all vaults were disabled
13:07:25 <felirx> at least in the original implementation
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13:47:44 -!- Adeon is now known as Marvin
13:49:38 -!- Marvin is now known as Adeon
13:50:27 <CIA-113> 03j-p-e-g * r1070ce46294f 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/tutorial/tutorial_lesson2.des: Fix tutorial map.
13:50:30 <CIA-113> 03j-p-e-g * r442e52f8c1ac 10/crawl-ref/source/ (initfile.cc main.cc): Make tutorial selectable from the command line.
13:54:45 -!- bhaak is now known as Marvin
13:55:02 -!- casmith789 is now known as kerio
13:55:05 -!- kerio is now known as casmith789
13:55:14 -!- Marvin is now known as bhaak
13:58:53 <dpeg> silly hackers
13:59:04 <dpeg> I guess that happens when there's no new version for seven years :P
13:59:21 <Adeon> please ignore anything strange you may have seen
13:59:40 <casmith789> um, there are many new versions
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14:02:59 <bhaak> dpeg is just jealous!
14:05:09 <casmith789> it's funny that dpeg was commenting about others changing their nicks as a sign their roguelike is not doing well :P
14:05:27 <bhaak> yes, but he is only ever doing it alone
14:05:47 <bhaak> it's okay if only the man at the top is crazy :)
14:06:14 <dpeg> Yes!
14:06:33 <dpeg> Twinton spittle hammocks
14:08:12 <casmith789> I defer to bhaak's first hand experience
14:11:47 <dpeg> The new tutorial will be so good.
14:11:53 <dpeg> (just testing it)
14:13:03 <TGWi> dpeg: what do you think of the character questionnaire?
14:13:33 <TGWi> there's a full proposal and a half, so it would just need code if you like it
14:15:02 <dpeg> TGWi: character questionnaire?
14:15:19 <dpeg> is there a link?
14:16:09 <bhaak> like in omega back then?
14:17:35 <TGWi> dpeg: the 'help me choose a character' thing
14:17:40 <TGWi> https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:interface:combochoice
14:18:21 <dpeg> ah, I see
14:18:37 <dpeg> to be honest, I am not so terribly convinced
14:18:48 <dpeg> but let me read it once more
14:21:56 <dpeg> monky: you are referring to "Help me create a character"?
14:22:11 <casmith789> VpSt should not be in the tutorial as a viable char
14:22:49 <dpeg> Vp is not at all a tutorial species
14:22:53 <dpeg> too many special rules
14:22:59 <casmith789> yes
14:23:07 <TGWi> it's not a tutorial; the tutorial is
14:23:17 <dpeg> monky <--> TGWi up there, sorry
14:23:30 <casmith789> I know, but VpSt should not be put on the same level as SpEn
14:23:35 <dpeg> TGWi: that kind of questionnaire looks very good to me
14:23:43 <CIA-113> 03j-p-e-g * r1d96ef2db202 10/crawl-ref/source/ (dat/des/tutorial/tutorial_lesson2.des hints.cc): Hook the hints mode level gain message into the tutorial.
14:23:57 <TGWi> the idea is to make the choices more accessible (there was an issue raised with crawl presenting the player with so many choices)
14:26:22 <dpeg> TGWi: just reading the pastebin choice tree... I'd suggest to have no choice after the two questions: just pick something (so A+b=>TrBe etc.)
14:27:27 <TGWi> well, I think it's good to give the player a description so they know what they're getting into
14:27:41 <dpeg> oh , I agree with that
14:28:15 <dpeg> TGWi: btw, formatting on the wiki is trivial :)
14:28:28 <TGWi> did you see what the other guy did? :(
14:28:31 <dpeg> just indent everything by two spaces and it will be displayed verbatim
14:28:42 <dpeg> ouch
14:28:45 <TGWi> haha
14:29:00 <TGWi> I was trying to put what's there on pastebin into the wiki, and it wasn't spacing the lines right or something
14:29:18 <TGWi> pastebin is nice though, less clutter on the page
14:30:36 <casmith789> why is St recommended in these tutorials
14:30:41 <TGWi> I think giving the player two or three choices is good; it shows off more of the variety without being overwhelming
14:30:50 <dpeg> casmith789: what tutorials are you talking about?
14:31:04 <casmith789> these character selection screens, sorry
14:31:19 <dpeg> TGWi: it also means a three layered choice when in the step the player cannot make a meaningful decision
14:31:31 <dpeg> casmith789: these proposals have been made before St got changed
14:31:46 <TGWi> I think mine was made after
14:31:55 <casmith789> Even so, it's not a very newbie friendly race
14:31:56 <casmith789> class*
14:32:02 <dpeg> background!
14:32:08 <TGWi> :P
14:33:01 <TGWi> dpeg: well, the descriptions wouldn't be like the class descriptions (starts with a book of geomancy, and...)
14:33:27 <TGWi> more an overview of the playing style
14:34:07 <TGWi> sjohara's descriptions are a good example of the sorts of things they might say
14:34:16 <MarvinPA> ouch, my local crawl crashes when i complete tutorial 1
14:34:17 <dpeg> TGWi: I assumed so. However, you could pick one highlight for the primary+secondary choice and mention other species which might git.
14:36:01 <dpeg> "Berserkers follow .... blurb. Trolls have a particularly easy time cruising into the dungeon in Trog's name. Other species which make fine berserkers are Mountain Dwarves and Minotaurs."
14:36:36 <dpeg> That way you point out the variety implicitly, without forcing players to actually make a choice, they can just start romping through the dungeon.
14:37:44 <TGWi> not just racial variety, classes too
14:38:12 <TGWi> my 'divine assisted fighter' category has a makhlebite, a berserker, and maybe ely
14:39:06 <dpeg> but Makhleb will go
14:39:09 <TGWi> and giving the players the option to choose right there is good--if someone says "cool, I want to try one of those" they can do so from the screen itself
14:39:23 <dpeg> and healers are really a completely different thing than berserkers
14:39:33 <casmith789> dpeg: makhleb will go!?
14:39:39 <dpeg> M will go as a starting god
14:39:41 <TGWi> casmith789: CK will go :P
14:39:46 <casmith789> Ah
14:40:17 <dpeg> That's another reason to concentrate on the basics, by the way.
14:40:52 <TGWi> maybe somehow designate one as recommended, and show the others secondarily
14:41:12 <Mu_> even though berserkers technically are 'divine-assisted fighters' i can't imagine many people would say yes to that expecting to be a berserker
14:41:56 <TGWi> like if you had the first option, then the field for descriptions, then "you might also like:" and the other one or two choices
14:42:03 <dpeg> Mu_: I would replace "divine-assisted fighter" by "following the berserker god"
14:42:06 <TGWi> to sort of separate those
14:42:45 <dpeg> TGWi: these are tiny details and not very relevant for a patch (which would be good!), I just think that less is more here.
14:43:35 <dpeg> A "You might also like" message (as opposed to choice) is also good.
14:44:12 <TGWi> not having the choice there or the ability to see descriptions is useless
14:44:43 <TGWi> the player would have to backtrack through the menus, then find the choice they wanted just to see what it is
14:45:20 <dpeg> afai see this, the point is to get hapless players into the game as quickly as possible
14:45:35 <TGWi> hints mode does that
14:45:53 <TGWi> this is to ease players into the choices
14:45:54 <dpeg> telling them that a MiBe is somehow similar to TrBe will be good enough for when they start not using the questionnaire
14:46:02 <dpeg> anyway, enough
14:46:35 <casmith789> One question. Do you want a challenge? Yes: OgEE No: SpEn.
14:46:46 <TGWi> is CK removal a 0.8 target?
14:46:58 <TGWi> or CK [makhleb] removal or whatever
14:47:00 <dpeg> no, but it could happen overnight
14:47:56 <dpeg> I don't even think that the second layer of questions is really necessary... I'd think that you can point out the major playing styles in one list, on one screen.
14:48:23 <TGWi> that screen would be fairly daunting
14:48:34 <Mu_> is it just M as a starting choice that's going?
14:48:38 <dpeg> depends on how many styles you think you need
14:48:49 <dpeg> Mu_: ah, there is a long discussion on the wiki
14:49:18 <dpeg> currently, we have BELMTXYZ1
14:49:20 <dpeg> did I miss one?
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14:50:12 <Mu_> well without reading it (sorry) the one thing i'd suggest is leaving CK in just so you can start with Xom, because i think everybody tries CK of Xom early on and xom is one of those things you tell your friends about to get them interested in crawl
14:50:24 <dpeg> I'd restrict to ELTXY; removing B is an option if we guarantee B early enough
14:50:31 <Mu_> okay
14:50:46 <dpeg> and I thikn one good god is enough, and E works best
14:51:00 <TGWi> zin and TSO could go yeah
14:51:21 <dpeg> L has been debated, but for different reasons (there are players who think that starting with L takes away from the Abyss)
14:51:22 <TGWi> I don't think lugonu needs to be a starting god
14:51:25 <dpeg> ^ :)
14:51:31 <TGWi> ha :P
14:52:02 <dpeg> it has pros and cons, either way is possible
14:52:09 <Mu_> i think i'd rather keep tso just paladins are the more well understood role
14:52:14 <Mu_> just because*
14:52:26 <dpeg> TSO instead of E?
14:52:29 <Mu_> yeah
14:52:48 <dpeg> but E is awesome on D:1-3, TSO not so much
14:53:05 <MarvinPA> the main reason people go Pa is for the long blade though, and there's no reason that shouldn't be available for other fighters
14:53:13 <dpeg> that too
14:53:23 <TGWi> Pa is a really awesome kit but TSO has about nothing to do with it :P
14:53:31 <TGWi> you get the healing potions too
14:53:45 <Mu_> my first win was a Pa with tso from start to finish :P
14:54:01 <TGWi> cateater's first win was an OgRe
14:54:15 <dpeg> Mu_: so you're sentimental :P
14:54:15 <Mu_> cool did he start the re just for the sword
14:54:31 <TGWi> he was an og from the start to the end
14:54:35 <TGWi> if that's what you're asking :P
14:54:42 <dpeg> I loved my GEAE win... and my first win was HD**, that didn't prevent me from axing either
14:55:03 <TGWi> dpeg is just preserving his GEAE and HD** highscores
14:55:40 <Mu_> their starting falchion could prolly be holy wrath without affecting much
14:56:01 <TGWi> pa kit doesn't need buffing
14:56:42 <casmith789> I reckon about 90% of Pa switch gods
14:56:53 <dpeg> casmith789: oh
14:56:54 <casmith789> because TSO is useless early
14:57:04 <TGWi> !lg * role=pa ktyp!=quitting|leaving s=god
14:57:05 <Sequell> 18138 games for * (role=pa ktyp!=quitting|leaving): 17104x The Shining One, 367x Okawaru, 354x , 131x Elyvilon, 45x Trog, 27x Zin, 22x Cheibriados, 20x Nemelex Xobeh, 18x Fedhas, 13x Makhleb, 9x Xom, 6x Vehumet, 5x Kikubaaqudgha, 4x Jiyva, 4x Yredelemnul, 3x Beogh, 3x Sif Muna, 2x Ashenzari, 1x Lugonu
14:57:05 <dpeg> that's a good reason to axe the background on its own
14:57:11 <TGWi> 90%
14:57:22 <MarvinPA> rangerC made a patch letting weapon-choosing classes have a long blade a while ago
14:57:27 <TGWi> more than that DO keep the god
14:57:30 <casmith789> of winning pa I mean
14:57:33 <MarvinPA> but it was rejected because it had some other things that weren't supported, i think
14:57:40 <MarvinPA> https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2867
14:57:41 <TGWi> !lg * won role=pa s=god
14:57:41 <Sequell> 128 games for * (won role=pa): 111x The Shining One, 10x Okawaru, 2x Xom, 2x Zin, 2x Nemelex Xobeh, 1x Trog
14:57:53 <TGWi> less than 10% in both cases
14:57:59 <MarvinPA> although personally i think everything in that patch is good except maybe the changes to Gl
14:58:01 <dpeg> MarvinPA: when RangerC comes up with his DG patch, he has a free wish :)
14:58:13 <MarvinPA> heh
14:58:25 <TGWi> what if he wishes for selling items
14:58:32 <dpeg> he wouldn't
14:58:48 <dpeg> He's not just a player, by far.
14:59:06 <TGWi> maybe it's an elaborate undercover operation
14:59:13 <casmith789> dpeg: well I'm probably wrong, but afaik the best way to play Pa is to switch gods because TSO is useless, and only use the starting equipment. It's like Fi but with long blades
14:59:21 <dpeg> ...then the fairy may not grant the wish :P
14:59:22 <TGWi> also, I think mu_ is a goon
14:59:30 <TGWi> (don't tell anyone)
14:59:38 <dpeg> I read SA.
14:59:40 <MarvinPA> anyway my point was just that somebody's already done part of the work if removing Pa and letting other classes choose lbl is desired :)
15:00:02 <Mu_> i have 96 posts in the SA thread
15:00:08 <Mu_> kind of a giveaway
15:00:36 <casmith789> !lm * type=god.renounce class=pa s=xl
15:00:36 <Sequell> 742 milestones for * (type=god.renounce class=pa): 236x 1, 84x 5, 77x 6, 73x 7, 69x 8, 49x 2, 48x 3, 42x 4, 17x 9, 11x 27, 5x 10, 5x 11, 4x 13, 3x 14, 3x 22, 2x 26, 2x 19, 2x 16, 2x 21, 2x 15, 2x 18, 1x 20, 1x 17, 1x 25, 1x 23
15:00:56 <Mu_> last time we removed kits it was based on plays, can we compare Pa to He :P
15:01:07 <Mu_> i'll miss Pa :P
15:01:12 <casmith789> ignoring level 1 renounces, because that could be lots of people switching, there are lots at L2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 which are all temple levels
15:01:17 <TGWi> was th based on plays?
15:01:27 <casmith789> lots of people ditching him randomly*
15:01:30 <TGWi> I thought it just wasn't very differentiated
15:01:58 <dpeg> Mu_: nostalgia is always bad :)
15:02:18 <Mu_> th was amongst the least played yeah
15:02:29 <dpeg> TGWi: it was a bad As, and it didn't at all live up to the title
15:02:43 <casmith789> St should be removed or reverted.
15:03:13 <MarvinPA> new St has style
15:03:19 <MarvinPA> even if it is hard
15:03:27 <TGWi> casmith789: :(
15:03:59 <st_> yeah, petrify and dig should be in the EE book and St can go
15:03:59 -!- Vandal| has joined ##crawl-dev
15:04:13 <casmith789> the style is "use those two early tm spells then try to introduce stabbing far too late"?
15:04:15 <Vandal|> heyo, just finished writing my review of DCSS and posting it
15:04:30 <dpeg> Vandal|: awesome!
15:04:33 <Vandal|> I don't know if this site will publish it properly, but if any of you want to use the review somewhere else you have my full permission
15:04:36 <Vandal|> http://www.blisteredthumbs.net/forum/user-game-review-submissions/vandal-reviews-dungeon-crawl-stone-soup-pc-mac-linux/#p16670
15:05:07 <TGWi> you can stab with confusion, you know
15:05:16 <casmith789> you may want to sort out your newlines :)
15:05:20 <TGWi> and for the record I wanted passwall at level 2 :P
15:05:31 <Vandal|> Yeah. Unfortunately it looked a little better in the preview
15:05:39 <Vandal|> Example, the images were fullsize
15:06:31 <Mu_> a mere 8/10?? scandalous
15:06:58 <Vandal|> ;)
15:07:05 <Vandal|> It is 10/10 in my heart
15:07:42 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev
15:14:58 <Vandal|> Ah thanks for pointing that out casmith789
15:15:00 <Vandal|> I fixed them
15:15:19 <casmith789> :)
15:17:48 <syllogism> 8/10 is like below average
15:18:00 <Vandal|> lol
15:18:08 <dpeg> Vandal|: it's a good review
15:18:17 <Vandal|> not on this site, read their mission statement etc...
15:18:18 <dpeg> I wouldn't ever give 10/10 to Crawl.
15:18:35 <Vandal|> They at least claim to not be using the 7-9 scale that is the journalistic standard
15:19:22 -!- Textmode has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
15:20:36 <casmith789> TGWi: I don't think passwall would be broken at level 2, fwiw
15:22:52 <Eronarn> i say up passwall, but make it better
15:22:58 <Eronarn> actually walk through wall, not insta-teleport
15:23:12 <Eronarn> the way it works around corner-y areas is irritating
15:23:51 <Eronarn> on the other hand, the passwall method of movement would be good for a tloc spell
15:24:24 <dpeg> passwall is good
15:25:01 <Zannick> wow, xom almost never saves *my* life :P
15:25:54 <CIA-113> 03j-p-e-g * r269eb6e35565 10/crawl-ref/source/newgame.cc: Make Escape from the Sprint/Tutorial menu actually escape the menu.
15:25:54 <CIA-113> 03j-p-e-g * raf5d5ecc4125 10/crawl-ref/source/newgame.cc: Don't allow viewing aptitudes etc. from tutorial submenu.
15:28:12 <Vandal|> Zannick these are all stock photos lifted from Crawl's webpage XD
15:28:23 <Zannick> oh, heh
15:28:28 <Vandal|> off I go, back to my main pc
15:28:33 <Zannick> well, my comment still holds :P
15:28:40 -!- Vandal| has quit []
15:34:17 <TGWi> I think 'view notes' should be somewhere other than ?
15:34:37 <TGWi> since ? is usually for static documentation
15:40:35 <due> moring
15:40:41 <TGWi> moring
15:42:00 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev
15:52:22 <Ashenzari> prayer that does nothing should not waste a turn (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3213) by vladimirdx
15:54:11 <dpeg> TGWi: you want a special key to assess notes?
15:54:43 <TGWi> I guess there's not much open
15:54:55 <TGWi> %: or something
15:55:27 <dpeg> the advantage of ? is that you get a menu anyway
15:55:49 <TGWi> I think there's room on %
15:56:34 <TGWi> (to add a line for :)
15:57:15 <Eronarn> offhand, does anyone know if total amount of gold retrieved so far in the game shows up anywhere?
15:57:33 <dpeg> Eronarn: does not, only in the dump
15:58:05 <Zannick> if you can find how much you spent in stores, you can add it to your current gold
15:58:05 <dpeg> TGWi: why is %: better than ?: ?
15:58:15 <Zannick> in stores/on misc
15:58:20 <TGWi> % is a screen for things related to your character
15:58:38 <TGWi> ? is a menu of static documentation; notes aren't the kind of thing that goes there
15:58:43 <dpeg> I say that % is full enough as is
15:58:54 <Eronarn> er, not shows up, rather - i meant is stored, internally
15:59:08 <dpeg> Eronarn: yes, it is stored, but I don't know where.
15:59:15 <TGWi> or: # should show you the dump file
15:59:20 <dpeg> Eronarn: but you can find out by checking how the dump is composed.
15:59:36 <Eronarn> hm, good idea
15:59:44 <TGWi> # should show you the dump's contents, and there should be another key to actually make the file
15:59:45 <Eronarn> this is for the zin tithing thing
16:00:45 <dpeg> TGWi: I don't think it is a big issue. All places where : is introduced, ?: is mentioned right away.
16:01:20 <TGWi> entering a note doesn't give any feedback; perhaps it should print "press ?: to review notes"
16:01:28 <TGWi> and I still think the # thing is a good idea
16:01:28 <Zannick> i've hit : when i wanted to review notes before
16:01:42 <TGWi> or, : could review the notes and also allow you to type them
16:01:48 <Zannick> so i open up ? to remember the key for it, and it says ':'.
16:02:54 <Zannick> do we anything bound to ; ?
16:02:59 <TGWi> yes
16:03:06 <TGWi> ; activates autopickup and tells you what's on your square
16:03:12 <Zannick> ah, never mind then
16:04:19 <TGWi> serial_glass is beautiful
16:06:02 <dpeg> I'll reduce the chance a bit
16:06:06 <TGWi> no!
16:06:13 <TGWi> :(
16:06:43 -!- blackpenguin has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
16:11:14 <dpeg> TGWi: there've been complaints that it comes up too ofen.
16:11:17 <dpeg> *often
16:11:29 <casmith789> TGWi: what does?
16:11:32 <TGWi> serial glass
16:11:47 <casmith789> don't think so. the full screen ones come up most often by far
16:13:02 <dpeg> ok
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16:15:30 <TGWi> I just got it on an open level
16:15:37 <TGWi> is that unintentional? it looks a bit weird
16:16:04 <TGWi> also it was the second consecutive level, so maybe you're right :P
16:17:20 <dpeg> TGWi: these vaults could always come up on open levels
16:17:34 <due> !lg * killer=grinder
16:17:35 <Sequell> 157. Zwei the Ruffian (L7 TrBe), worshipper of Trog, blasted by Grinder (wand of cold {zapped: 5}) on D:7 on 2011-01-14, with 1186 points after 7474 turns and 1:44:18.
16:17:40 <due> !lg * killer=eustachio
16:17:40 <Sequell> 2. Yorikke the Infuser (L9 KoEn), worshipper of Makhleb, blasted by Eustachio (wand of draining {zapped: 1}) on D:10 on 2010-12-10, with 2908 points after 13884 turns and 1:35:37.
16:17:43 <TGWi> dpeg: look at my game for a sec
16:17:44 <TGWi> on CDO
16:17:47 <dpeg> in fact, I got the idea for serial vaults after seeing too many single, ill-fitting flavour vaults (in octagon or open maps).
16:17:51 <due> Hm, CDO may not be uppdated.
16:18:11 <dpeg> TGWi: there
16:18:58 <dpeg> I consider it to look more natural when there's a number of such vaults -- then it looks like purpose, not accident
16:19:14 <TGWi> it just looks a bit weird that they're all over the border
16:19:23 <TGWi> looks great in corridor levels though
16:20:11 <dpeg> oh, I like it when the edges of a map get broken up
16:34:10 <kilobyte> due: what school will the Homunculus spell be in?  Tmut?
16:34:18 <due> kilobyte: Yes.
16:34:31 <due> That's one of my projects this weekend ):
16:34:36 <due> Though holies will come first.
16:34:39 <due> @??pearl dragon
16:34:40 <Gretell> pearl dragon (08D) | 04UNFINISHED | Speed: 13 | HD: 18 | Health: 91-140 | AC/EV: 10/15 | Damage: 3508(holy), 2008(holy) | Flags: 08holy, sense invisible, fly, !sil | Res: 06magic(168) | XP: 5712 | Sp: holy breath (3d36).
16:34:44 <due> :D!
16:34:46 <TGWi> neat
16:35:47 <kilobyte> is it still supposed to be UNFINISHED?
16:36:01 <dpeg> https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:background:religious_backgrounds#a_plan_for_religious_background_reform
16:37:17 <due> kilobyte: Once I double check corpses I'll kill that flag.
16:37:58 <kilobyte> most of Beogh's appeal is dealing with early orcs, and having the piety for converting most before entering Orc
16:38:16 <kilobyte> is the balance ok?
16:38:34 <TGWi> greensnark: ##crawl is slowly moving the entirety of {ideas} into {bad ideas}
16:38:43 <TGWi> is there an easier way to do that on your end?
16:38:49 <TGWi> slash less spammy?
16:39:19 <CIA-113> 03j-p-e-g * r63dcba1b7c80 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/tutorial/tutorial_lesson1.des: Shorten tutorial end screen to 24 lines, fixes console crashes.
16:39:26 <MarvinPA> most of beogh's appeal is having a band of orc warlords demolish zot:5 :P
16:39:27 <kilobyte> it'd be good to remove 95% of {bad ideas}
16:39:30 <CIA-113> 03j-p-e-g * r871b21dd8ba1 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/tutorial/tutorial_lesson2.des: Some tweaks to the second tutorial lesson.
16:39:44 <TGWi> beogh could become the default starting god of hill orcs
16:39:50 <ZChris13> MarvinPA: Don't forget Saint Roka
16:40:48 <kilobyte> unless there was a large change since 0.4 when I played them last, the orcies are damn squishy later on, keeping them alive requires lots of micromanagement
16:40:56 <due> squishy <3
16:41:12 <MarvinPA> it worked for me in the tourney
16:41:23 <Eronarn> kilobyte: perhaps the same could be said of all summons...
16:41:29 <kilobyte> with or without much micromanagement?
16:41:33 <due> Eronarn: not really
16:41:40 <due> Eronarn: summons ca be easily replenished.
16:41:41 <kilobyte> well, summons are supposed to die
16:41:50 <Eronarn> yes, i'm not being serious :P
16:42:06 <MarvinPA> not that much, i just let them pick anything up all game
16:42:48 <ZChris13> You convert Saint Roka, give him CPM. Lol at Zot.
16:43:37 <due> The roll for converting Saint Roka is pretty high. It really depends on your piety level when you run into him.
16:45:24 <dpeg> Do you really make use of very early orc monsters when playing HOPr?
16:46:38 <MarvinPA> not really, mainly just whatever warriors/knights you convert and level up
16:46:58 <due> initfile.cc:620: warning: ‘std::string _user_home_subpath(std::string)’ defined but not used
16:47:49 <MarvinPA> early on i guess i took quite a big group with me but as a few start becoming knights/sorcerers/priests it's good to have a smaller, well-equipped group
16:49:52 <Gretell> Unstable branch on CDO updated to: 0.8.0-a0-4572-g269eb6e (32)
16:50:06 <st_> Is there a reason unique pan lord levels need cTele? I don't enjoy how easily people skip fighting the lords
16:50:06 <due> yay eustachio and early grindernow fresh on CDO!
16:50:43 <dpeg> st_: not sure, never been there
16:50:59 <casmith789> st_: cerebov loot vaults
16:51:08 <st_> not a reason
16:51:11 <monky> cerebov loot can open when you kill cerebov
16:51:15 <dpeg> yesy
16:51:24 <dpeg> also, haven't they been modified recently?
16:51:29 <due> yes
16:51:41 <due> let's dump ctele for pan entirely ;)!
16:52:02 <casmith789> dpeg: even the old vault?
16:53:07 <st_> I did try modify my vaults but I'm not the best vault designer so :(
16:54:38 <dpeg> casmith789: not sure
16:56:14 <TGWi> rob was in irc two weeks ago, did he say anything?
16:56:28 <due> RIP rob :(
16:56:37 <TGWi> !seen by
16:56:38 <Henzell> I last saw by at Mon Dec 27 08:22:25 2010 UTC (2w 4d 14h 34m 12s ago) quitting with message Quit: leaving.
16:57:03 -!- ZChris13 has quit [Quit: Page closed]
16:57:59 <dpeg> TGWi: I wasn't around
16:58:04 <CIA-113> 03kilobyte * re64610d96503 10/crawl-ref/source/rltiles/ (dc-spells.txt gui/spells/transmutation/homunculus.png): Add co's icon for the Homunculus spell.
16:58:06 <CIA-113> 03kilobyte * rb2f4db86f23e 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-data.h: Make sixfirhies less of a pushover.
16:58:07 <CIA-113> 03kilobyte * ra763e1e69586 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-data.h: Bump hairy devils a bit as well.
16:58:10 <dpeg> due: Robert is not dead, just busy.
16:58:19 <due> dpeg: Yes, I know :)
16:58:38 <due> I will be doing Crawl stuff soon!
17:00:13 <dpeg> :)
17:08:06 <TGWi> busy being dead
17:09:31 <TGWi> when was he last active?
17:09:39 <TGWi> october or so?
17:09:49 <due> I was dead for a few months as well
17:12:31 <kilobyte> yeah, if you were not a god, TSO would get mad at your ass
17:12:41 <due> :D
17:15:49 <dpeg> kilobyte: if we can sort out starting Beogh, I'd make the religious background reform an implementable.
17:16:18 <dpeg> You think that Beogh by Orc:1 the latest will remove too much appeal from the god?
17:16:54 <dpeg> (the question is not rhethorical, we could have very early orc band + altar vaults)
17:17:42 <kilobyte> if you take him by Orc:1, there's no time to get any piety
17:17:53 <OG17> is "orcs start with beogh" out of the question?
17:17:56 <kilobyte> you'd have to dip, go killing elsewhere then return
17:17:58 <dpeg> but there's still plenty of orcs to pick up later
17:18:02 <TGWi> OG17: I totally suggested that
17:18:20 <dpeg> OG17: I am not sure
17:18:26 <kilobyte> OG17: that'd ban all other gods to them at least until lateish midgame
17:18:28 <dpeg> aren't orcs more than just Beogh? :)
17:18:39 <due> I can't stand to play Beoghmyself.
17:18:42 <due> Even on Orcs. ;)
17:18:50 <OG17> it'd work fine if wraths scaled like people were talking about
17:18:59 <due> But flavour-wise...
17:19:01 <due> That's not a bad idea.
17:19:08 <dpeg> OG17: that's actually true
17:19:22 <due> It's a great flavour thing too.
17:19:41 <dpeg> note that the player is a Hill Orc but the other buys are Cave Orcs
17:20:01 <dpeg> taht still leaves the reform in a funny state: there'd be no priest background anymore (Y goes to DK, Z is removed), only for HO
17:20:02 <kilobyte> another problem is that you often need to explore most of Orc to have a chance to enter bubbles on Orc:1, and even that doesn't work most of the time -- usually Orc:1 bubbles have an exit to D but no downstairs
17:20:13 <TGWi> beogh could have low wrath if it would help
17:20:20 <TGWi> pr could be reserved for HO beogh
17:20:32 <dpeg> TGWi: yes, which is slightly strange, but hey
17:21:15 <dpeg> in other news, I just presented the idea of adding a low healing food item (on the forum), with the idea of adding 0-2 of those to starting inventories
17:21:23 <dpeg> any outright rejections of this?
17:21:32 <OG17> what's it meant to do?
17:21:36 <dpeg> heal a bit
17:21:36 <kilobyte> outright: no
17:21:41 <due> no outright objection
17:21:53 <due> the healing properties would be balanced out by the delay of eating it, I assume?
17:22:13 <OG17> I can't think of many early situations where you have time to eat but not to heal
17:22:14 <dpeg> players complain about low level mortality, and of course we _won't_ give them a scroll of teleporation, or two potions of healing, or whatever they drool about
17:22:28 <dpeg> and neither more starting HP, I think
17:22:36 <TGWi> I'm not sure it would help that much
17:22:38 <OG17> maybe for poison
17:22:41 <TGWi> nor would potions of healing
17:22:44 <TGWi> except against poison yeah
17:22:51 <dpeg> the smallest currency to give would be limited, small hp gains (and no potion b/c of id purposes)
17:24:41 <CIA-113> 03j-p-e-g * re73a8520cdb7 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/tutorial/tutorial_lesson2.des: Display weapon and corpse glyphs in the console tutorial2 recap.
17:24:50 <dpeg> I like items much better than reducing monster damage or increasing player HP because it adds a litte choice
17:24:51 <CIA-113> 03j-p-e-g * rfb186235486d 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/tutorial/tutorial_lesson2.des: In the second tutorial, replace wolf -> hound.
17:24:54 <CIA-113> 03j-p-e-g * r5f9ea088ef53 10/crawl-ref/source/ (describe.cc describe.h): Don't display item/monster quotes in the tutorial.
17:24:57 <TGWi> the main thing is mobs with weapons
17:25:13 <dpeg> TGWi: well, there's no way around choosing battles carefully
17:25:22 <TGWi> and those are common and sudden enough that a few consumables wouldn't help so much
17:25:36 <OG17> I think it's more about how new players are always miscasting and missing
17:25:45 <OG17> though I don't think it's really a problem
17:26:12 <TGWi> half of games end on D:1, hobs and kobolds are twice as lethal as third place, etc
17:26:30 <TGWi> statistics disagree with you, emphatically
17:26:31 <TGWi> D:1-3
17:26:32 <TGWi> rather
17:26:44 <OG17> they're thirty second games, it's no loss
17:26:53 <TGWi> it's no gain, either
17:27:05 <monky> and how many of those were bad play
17:27:17 <dpeg> TGWi: as I said, if nobody dies, we can just scrap the level
17:27:18 <TGWi> and I think crawl would be more fun if you didn't have to play the bad part so often
17:27:55 <dpeg> why bad?
17:27:57 <dpeg> I like it a lot.
17:28:03 <OG17> I don't see how this is avoidable, characters starting out weak and without items is sort of the point
17:28:39 <OG17> and if things were made so that you weren't really in danger in the first levels, there'd be little reason to actually play them
17:28:46 <OG17> it'd just be collecting items and xp
17:28:48 <dpeg> OG17: yes. The question is just if we think they need some help or not. Myself, I don't mind the high mortality, but this thread threw me in a fit of generosity. It'll be over tomorrow, I think.
17:28:56 <dpeg> OG17: yes
17:28:58 <TGWi> dpeg: early game? both characters and mobs are mostly identical and only have one option
17:29:17 <dpeg> I disagree, this is not at all my experience.
17:29:18 <TGWi> on D:1 you use what you started with, and if it's not enough you try again until it is
17:29:39 <TGWi> it's just not that much fun compared to the 3 through lair part of early game
17:29:49 <monky> plenty of options: throw junk, pillar dance, miss 5 times and die
17:29:51 <dpeg> fun is subjective
17:29:52 <OG17> my favorite part of the game is the first few levels, actually
17:29:53 <monky> (the problem is they're all bad)
17:31:01 <OG17> things get less interesting as you get more and more resources abilities etc
17:31:02 <dpeg> There's always the question: fight or not? Then there's the question whether to use some resource or not. This goes for curare, nets, ammunition, berserk, spell.
17:31:06 <Zannick> that's actually my least favorite part, because there isn't really anything highly interesting, like branches, artefacts, good shops...
17:31:15 <dpeg> fun is subjective
17:31:32 <dpeg> but the game needs to start somewhere, and Crawl starts really fast
17:31:34 <monky> dpeg: avoiding fights can be hard in early early game and you don't typically have resources
17:31:56 <dpeg> monky: I avoid fights all the time. Depends on background, of course.
17:32:06 <OG17> I think making do with what's generated very early on is interesting in itself, basically
17:32:19 <TGWi> D:1 is about 30% of all games, for the real statistics
17:32:24 <dpeg> OG17: I agree, but seems we're a minority (not that I mind)
17:32:32 <OG17> and sometimes what's generated isn't enough to make do with, but whatever, try again
17:32:33 <dpeg> TGWi: but not time-wise
17:32:34 <OG17> cool
17:32:49 <casmith789> if every level killed 30% of players that reached it there'd be none left by zot 5 :)
17:33:06 <TGWi> I'm not asking you to get rid of early game
17:33:17 <TGWi> I just don't think it's fun to have a huge spike in difficulty right at the start
17:33:23 <dpeg> This started by me asking if we should give D:1 characters a little help. But now I don't feel like it anymore.
17:33:39 <OG17> buff early game monsters
17:33:56 <Zannick> casmith789: not true mathematically :)
17:34:03 <monky> getting rid of pillar dancing would at least help early game feel like less of a choice between boredom and death
17:34:06 <monky> imo
17:34:10 <casmith789> Zannick: *almost* true :P
17:34:11 <TGWi> Zannick: how many levels are there in a game?
17:34:34 <TGWi> 27 of D, 5 of zot, 8 of lair, probably 8+5+5 for runes in most games
17:34:38 <OG17> monky, random movement at least managed to do that, more or less
17:34:44 <TGWi> 58 levels
17:34:54 <Zannick> TGWi: raising .3 to a very large number still does not make it 1
17:35:10 <TGWi> 0.7^58 is one billionth of games
17:35:16 <Zannick> or .7, actually
17:35:17 <TGWi> so, no, nobody would have won yet :P
17:35:23 <dpeg> monky: I know of no solution for pillar dancing that does not have very undesirable effects for the whole game (and pillar dancing is only a concern very early on)
17:35:34 <monky> OG17: then there's the dancing until the monsters lose a move, then running upstairs
17:35:37 <casmith789> they could've, they would have just been really lucky
17:35:39 <upsy> it could be the first billionth
17:35:40 <monky> dpeg: neither do I :(
17:35:55 <dpeg> The absolutely numbers of games are irrelevant. What counts is the time investment.
17:36:02 <casmith789> hey! I thought of a solution! Elbereth! :p
17:36:21 * dpeg slaps casmith789 with a pair of electric dire rainbow trouts.
17:36:35 <monky> I feel as if a combination of number and time investment should matter
17:36:50 <TGWi> restarting games takes time
17:37:09 <casmith789> play diving L1 SpAr and you'll see how easy the early game is sometimes
17:37:14 <TGWi> and it's time which is spent mostly while bored, unlike the majority of other games
17:37:35 <dpeg> Would you feel better if you painlessly explored D:1 and D:2 all the time, just to start dying on D:3? That's a lot more time wasted.
17:37:46 <TGWi> well, again
17:37:51 <TGWi> no other level kills 30% of characters
17:38:03 <dpeg> We agree that characters have to die somewhere?
17:38:17 <dpeg> This is ##crawl-dev, not ##crwal, so we all do agree.
17:38:28 <kilobyte> death to the players!
17:38:31 <kilobyte> death to the mortals!
17:38:32 <kilobyte> death to the living!
17:38:33 <TGWi> best that they don't often die before the fun part
17:38:47 <dpeg> fun is subjective
17:38:50 <Zannick> dpeg: i actually die more often midgame than early game
17:38:59 <TGWi> Zannick: statistics don't
17:39:00 <dpeg> Zannick: yes
17:39:04 <monky> I'd feel better if early game was a bit more skill-dependant, but the only thing I can think of to accomplish that is ramp up the hard parts but give the player more choices for handling them
17:39:05 <Zannick> and it frustrates me because then i have to wade through the early game again
17:39:14 <dpeg> So Zannick is a better than average player?
17:39:15 <MarvinPA> does anyone know how to create different flavoured serpents of hell in wizmode?
17:39:27 <dpeg> monky: I was about to throw you an apple or two.
17:39:32 <monky> MarvinPA: serpent of hell soh_flavour:coc ?
17:39:37 <Zannick> i don't know how to translate that into overall statistics, but that's my personal experience
17:39:41 <casmith789> dpeg: actually I think it depends on your class. Play TrBe and you won't die on d:1 very often at all
17:39:45 <monky> MarvinPA: (replace coc with tar, geh, dis)
17:39:50 <Zannick> that's actually as a melee class, to wit
17:39:50 <casmith789> but you will run into problems
17:39:53 <MarvinPA> aha
17:39:55 <MarvinPA> that, yes
17:40:00 <MarvinPA> but "the serpent of hell"
17:40:03 <monky> oh
17:40:05 <monky> right the the
17:40:12 <dpeg> Ah, I assume that nobody is complaining about high mortality rates for unviable combos? Those don't matter.
17:40:36 <Zannick> i do sometimes die in < d:3 as a caster
17:40:43 <TGWi> this depends how you're defining viable
17:40:51 <monky> It's been a while since I tried SETm but I remember hating how they always died to hobgoblins and I tried to avoid fighting them
17:40:52 <syllogism> characters who die a lot on d:1
17:40:55 <syllogism> are nonviable :P
17:40:57 <dpeg> Zannick: sure, that's a caster's life risk: mana's gone or too many miscasts ==> x_x
17:40:59 <syllogism> un
17:41:07 <TGWi> inviable
17:41:13 <dpeg> invariably unviable
17:41:19 <TGWi> inviable :(
17:41:23 <Zannick> i don't think those were why i died, but yes.
17:41:29 <casmith789> there are a few unfair deaths, mikee lost a DDCK to a wand of lightning for instance on a streak. The best way to stay alive is to play a berserker early and a caster late. I just took this to extremes with my KeBe :)
17:41:49 <monky> I also remember hating how EE always had to pillar dance forever to gain MP to sandblast (which missed all the time and did no damage when it actually hit)
17:41:59 <TGWi> again, I don't mind wands
17:42:01 <dpeg> casmith789: we don't care about unfair deaths as long as the chances are miniscule
17:42:01 <syllogism> unfair deaths are fine and unavoidable
17:42:06 <TGWi> since those are rare
17:42:16 <OG17> stuff like sandblast is a single-spell issue
17:42:21 <dpeg> yes
17:42:30 <casmith789> dpeg: which is why all chars should start Be and switch to ash!
17:42:44 <st_> I think sandblast is fine now that it's range 2
17:42:51 <monky> oh good
17:42:59 <TGWi> OG17: at some point this becomes systemic
17:43:11 <dpeg> casmith789: there are many more ways to survive early on: As, Gl, Sp, Ce, He all do a good job, for example
17:43:12 <TGWi> there are some backgrounds that can bypass the early game, but a lot can't
17:43:23 <OG17> clearly they all can
17:43:35 <casmith789> dpeg: sure, but Be is the best of these :P
17:43:35 <TGWi> if we agree that IE or Be is balanced, I don't see why all backgrounds can't be about as good
17:43:38 <TGWi> right?
17:43:46 <syllogism> I disagree
17:43:47 <TGWi> except Wn or what have you
17:43:51 <Eronarn> IE: not balanced
17:43:52 <dpeg> I summed up the early game story in a tavern thread, which was closed shortly after :)
17:43:54 <MarvinPA> st_: i'm patching your serpent of hell thing, what colour do you think tar serpent should be if it gets elemental colours?
17:44:03 <dpeg> TGWi: no, not at all
17:44:08 <Eronarn> MarvinPA: flickering magenta/black
17:44:11 <MarvinPA> etc_necro is darkgrey/magenta which doesn't look great
17:44:17 <dpeg> Be is about early game powerhouse with a conduct which kicks in later
17:44:29 <dpeg> casters are about later potential at the expense of early chances
17:44:35 <OG17> "balance" doesn't mean that everything is on equal footing, this isn't a competitive game
17:44:36 <casmith789> you can ditch said conduct though
17:44:37 <st_> maybe lightgrey/darkgrey
17:44:46 <dpeg> casmith789: huh?
17:44:50 <MarvinPA> i'll try that and see what it looks like, yeah
17:44:51 <casmith789> abandon trog!
17:44:53 <st_> I'm not too familiar with elemental ones
17:44:55 <OG17> it just means that everything's reasonable and nothing's completely trivialized
17:45:05 <monky> casmith789: well that's difficult to survive unless you cheat
17:45:29 <Eronarn> @??bone dragon
17:45:29 <Gretell> bone dragon (15D) | Speed: 8 | HD: 20 | Health: 193-272 | AC/EV: 20/4 | Damage: 30, 20, 20 | Flags: 07undead, evil, sense invisible, fly | Res: 06magic(106), 05fire, 02cold, 10elec++, 03poison | XP: 2352.
17:45:31 <casmith789> so, what I'm saying is, sort out the wrath problem before you sort out d:1 :P
17:45:38 <Eronarn> @??shadow dragon
17:45:39 <Gretell> shadow dragon (06D) | Speed: 10 | HD: 17 | Health: 106-149 | AC/EV: 15/10 | Damage: 2013(drain), 15, 15 | Flags: evil, cold-blooded, see invisible, fly, !sil | Res: 06magic(113), 02cold++, 03poison | Chunks: 04hydrochloric acid | XP: 3401 | Sp: b.draining (3d21).
17:45:41 <Eronarn> flciker between these two? :D
17:45:45 <dpeg> casmith789: these are unrelated
17:46:00 <MarvinPA> that's what i had it on just now, i'm not convinced it looks as good as the other elemental colours though
17:46:01 <casmith789> yes. but I don't think there is a problem with d:1
17:46:08 <dpeg> casmith789: milder wrath makes Be even stronger, so might warrant a nerf to the background
17:46:14 <TGWi> dpeg: I guess I want some fraction of the D:1 deaths shifted to midgame
17:46:22 <TGWi> because midgame deaths are due to bad play
17:46:31 <casmith789> dpeg: well, wait 33k turns in shoals and tell me that it was hard wrath :P
17:46:31 <dpeg> TGWi: for this, I came here with two apples
17:46:35 <TGWi> and it's fun dying in midgame
17:47:04 <MarvinPA> i guess i should look at this on the tar background actually
17:47:11 <dpeg> MarvinPA: <3
17:47:50 <MarvinPA> :)
17:48:14 <casmith789> any class that starts with a god has an inherent bonus over those which don't, in that they can start gaining piety quickly.
17:48:46 <dpeg> "I do however, applaud dpeg's consistent stance against making the game any easier though, I sometimes feel that if it weren't for him (and anyone else who thinks like him), this game would degenerate very quickly. Good to have that keeper of the flame, even if it makes him quite unpopular with certain sectors of the playerbase at times."
17:48:49 <casmith789> trog is good because of zerk to clear early D which is the hardest area of the game
17:48:51 <dpeg> hehe :)
17:49:19 <TGWi> I disagree that I want to play an easier game
17:49:22 <TGWi> except maybe incidentally
17:49:30 <Zannick> I agree with that.
17:50:16 <casmith789> add a new race that's almost impossible!
17:50:32 <OG17> antispriggan
17:50:32 <Zannick> But we don't want things too overpowered or underpowered
17:50:47 <casmith789> naga movement, troll apts, felid armour slots and hp. go!
17:50:57 <monky> ogre mummies
17:51:12 <Eronarn> win/loss is not the only measure of ease
17:51:39 <Eronarn> you can have a game where you lose a lot of the time but each attempt is a trivial effort
17:51:46 <casmith789> seriously though, ogre is cool. be nice if there were some other class (apart from mummy) which offered a unique challenge.
17:51:48 <Eronarn> this is the case for dying on d1 with something like an EE
17:52:05 <casmith789> I mean, deliberately harder than say DD or Mf
17:52:35 <Eronarn> yes, it raises the win percent if you buff them, but that's fine if each game on average now takes much more thinking rather than spamming sandblast and hoping you don't die to cockroaches this time
17:52:57 <Adeon> I want the class that starts with no skills or items at all
17:52:59 <MarvinPA> actually darkgrey/magenta serpent looks good on the tar background, i'll go with that
17:53:10 <OG17> don't use darkgrey jeez
17:53:20 <Eronarn> i completely agree with TGWi that it's better if we shift deaths to midgame because that means we're shifting threatening situations there
17:53:29 <MarvinPA> it's just bone dragon colour
17:53:33 <OG17> darkgrey is the color that doesn't get used for things
17:53:35 <Eronarn> and threatening situations midgame are much more interesting - less chance of, say, taking 8 damage from a kobold with a dart
17:53:36 <OG17> lightgrey?
17:53:43 <syllogism> cockroach deaths are rare if you are playing correctly and I dont agree it's fine
17:53:43 <MarvinPA> @??bone dragon
17:53:44 <Gretell> bone dragon (15D) | Speed: 8 | HD: 20 | Health: 193-272 | AC/EV: 20/4 | Damage: 30, 20, 20 | Flags: 07undead, evil, sense invisible, fly | Res: 06magic(106), 05fire, 02cold, 10elec++, 03poison | XP: 2352.
17:54:09 <syllogism> 8 damage from a dart is extremely rare
17:54:15 <syllogism> so rare it's not worth mentioning
17:54:16 <MarvinPA> oh right yeah, darkgrey you can't tell if it's out of LOS
17:54:28 <Eronarn> syllogism: it's really not that rare
17:54:30 <TGWi> and a lot of terminals don't like darkgrey
17:54:30 <syllogism> it is
17:54:39 <st_> OG17's crusade against darkgrey is what left us with eyesearing elf so thanks
17:54:42 <Eronarn> per-dart-throw rarity, sure
17:54:46 <Eronarn> per-d1-game, not at all
17:54:47 <OG17> you're welcome
17:54:50 <MarvinPA> well you can tell if it's out of los because it stops flickering
17:54:50 <dpeg> darkgrey _plus_ magenta will be okay
17:54:52 <syllogism> yes, per d1 game
17:54:58 <MarvinPA> so maybe it's alright
17:55:01 <kilobyte> TGWi: I think they have all been fixed... the buggy Macs are obsolete, I think
17:55:13 <syllogism> you have to have a kobold with the correct darts, hit, roll high and ac roll to be low
17:55:16 <OG17> you can't tell if it's flickering or out of LOS in a given turn, though
17:55:18 <TGWi> kilobyte: I don't use one of said terminals so I'm not sure
17:55:25 <kilobyte> the problem with darkgrey is that it's very widely used for "out of LOS" and shouldn't be used for anything else
17:55:26 <TGWi> but I know n7 uses darkgrey = blue
17:55:36 <OG17> or maybe the monster list would handle that but it's still clumsy
17:55:40 <st_> pressing spacebar a lot flickers elemental colours
17:55:42 <Eronarn> it's not common, but it's not unmentionably rare
17:55:45 <MarvinPA> lots of the defined elemental colours use darkgrey
17:55:50 <Eronarn> it's more common than, say, ogres/centaurs on d1
17:55:52 <TGWi> the LOS thing is definitely a valid point too
17:55:52 <Eronarn> and those happen
17:55:57 <OG17> I never knew you could do that with spacebar, neat
17:56:05 <OG17> also yeah nothing should use darkgrey
17:56:05 <syllogism> they dont happen enough
17:56:16 <syllogism> d1 ogres are especially just fine
17:56:22 <kilobyte> dark blue is hard to see on so many monitors, much harder than darkgrey
17:56:28 <dpeg> syllogism: monster or player? (joking)
17:56:38 <Eronarn> well i don't really have a problem with d1 ogres actually
17:56:41 <syllogism> monster since the player race is too buff nowadays
17:56:42 <dpeg> kilobyte: yes, I don't think we use darkblue anywhere?
17:56:43 <kilobyte> which makes porcupines and dire elephants damn stealthy
17:57:05 <dpeg> syllogism: hey, I got complaints about nerfing it to hell :)
17:57:15 <kilobyte> (and regular elephants are stealthy in foresty lair ends)
17:57:19 <Eronarn> a d1 ogre is tough but beatable for a fair number of combos
17:57:21 <st_> merfolk on deep water are the stealthiest
17:57:25 <TGWi> dpeg: it was in hell already, don't feel bad about it :P'
17:57:42 <dpeg> kilobyte: ah right, we leave it to players to either not use darkgrey or darkblue
17:57:44 <OG17> d1 ogre isn't exactly beatable but it's certainly avoidable
17:57:51 <Eronarn> the problem here is really the combos that sucks so badly on d1 that even getting to L2 requires you to not buttonmash
17:57:59 <dpeg> Eronarn: viable combos?
17:58:09 <OG17> why should buttonmashing get you to D2
17:58:21 <dpeg> So we either make them unviable, or, if it affects all species, have to rethink the starting kit
17:58:44 <MarvinPA> @??ereshkigal
17:58:44 <Gretell> Ereshkigal (16&) | Speed: 14 | HD: 18 | Health: 250 | AC/EV: 10/30 | Damage: 40 | Flags: 05demonic, evil, see invisible, !sil | Res: 06magic(240), 02cold, 10elec++, 03poison | XP: 14085 | Sp: b.draining (3d22), b.cold (3d27), greater demon, torment symbol, paralyse, minor healing.
17:58:47 <Eronarn> dpeg: oh, i didn't mean that all combos should be viable by any means
17:59:00 <dpeg> please everyone confirm that you're not complaining about unviable combos -- those don'T exist for the current discussion
17:59:03 <Eronarn> but there are definitely some roles that are noticeably worse than others
17:59:07 <dpeg> Eronarn: sure
17:59:26 <Eronarn> even the viable ones are generally harder than other alternatives for that race
17:59:37 <syllogism> so
17:59:58 <monky> like debe being better than deee?
18:00:23 <monky> or is this broader than just early early game
18:00:25 <dpeg> But: an As has curare to get him to the temple... he starts at full potential, it may just go down (if he loses a needle). A caster starts at lower potential (much higher threat) because she has to unlock spells (levels, skill), but by doing so she _surely_ becomes stronger.
18:00:40 <Eronarn> i'm just talking early early game monky
18:00:47 <dpeg> This difference in power justifies higher D:1 lethality for casters. They're gambling on the future.
18:01:23 <dpeg> monky: yes, DEBe may get to D:6 more often than DEEE. But which combo will win more often?
18:01:25 <OG17> most casters have a pretty strong start anyway
18:01:28 <OG17> well, conjurer-types
18:01:47 <OG17> blasting-types I mean
18:01:56 <Eronarn> right, but some casters have a terrible start
18:01:57 <dpeg> Cj, just say it :)
18:02:01 <Eronarn> and switching schools is not that big a deal
18:02:30 -!- syllogism has quit []
18:02:56 <Eronarn> if we're going to have varying roles for casters at all we should try to have them all be a compelling choice for one reason or another and it's hard to imagine anyone getting excited over, say, EE or warper
18:03:20 <OG17> warper's pretty well off with the blink scroll and darts
18:03:24 <dpeg> yes
18:03:58 <dpeg> I am nowhere saying that the starting kits/books are perfect. But I don't buy that lethality of D:1 is too high.
18:04:00 <Eronarn> it's ok but ime they could use a bit of a boost just because 'run away all the time' is very irritating in practice
18:04:31 <OG17> I don't think so, it's a legitimate playstyle
18:04:40 <OG17> especially at the weakest point of your character's life
18:04:53 <TGWi> the lethality of D:1 is 30%
18:05:02 <OG17> and it's .00000001% of time played
18:05:03 <Eronarn> it's ok if they have to pick and choose their battles but bad if you don't feel at all capable of actually fighting and that tends to happen a lot with my warpers
18:05:07 <TGWi> what would you say is too high?
18:05:26 <dpeg> TGWi: players win streaks, so it's okay
18:05:37 <dpeg> from time to time I run my "random good combo" experiments
18:05:44 <dpeg> and also from that I think it's okay
18:06:15 <casmith789> if you play a strong combo like DDNe or MfIE then I don't think the lethality of D:1 is that high
18:06:23 <Eronarn> it'd be nice if they had some kind of offensive spell perhaps, or some way to augment themselves when in combat
18:06:44 <TGWi> re: unviable, I don't think the issue is disappearing just because it's acknowledged by the game
18:08:17 <TGWi> ignoring balance for many characters reduces the variety of characters that are fun
18:08:31 <OG17> warpers have darts to stay at range and two different items to create more distance if things go badly
18:08:33 <casmith789> there are many strong chars
18:08:43 <OG17> it's not the strongest start but they don't need to turn into cj or cr
18:08:52 <dpeg> TGWi: I was against opening all combos. Recall that what's now unviable simply didn't exist in DCSS0.2.
18:09:04 <TGWi> obviously OgEE won't be great but there's no non-philosophical reason early game needs to shut out so many combinations
18:09:19 <OG17> and yet what combos are unwon?
18:09:25 <casmith789> FeAs
18:09:28 <Eronarn> OG17: are you really going to try to make that argument
18:09:35 <OG17> well yes
18:09:48 <OG17> nothing is "shut out"
18:09:53 <Eronarn> "at least someone has used all of crawl's spells at least once! wrap it up guys, no more patches needed or desired"
18:10:27 <OG17> if the argument was "not every spell is usable" that might be going somewhere
18:10:57 <Eronarn> there are plenty of spells that are 'usable' but very difficult to use or very niche in applications for no particular reason
18:11:06 <OG17> but every combo is playable, as proven by every combo being successfully played
18:11:29 <TGWi> okay so now we're doing semantics
18:12:00 <casmith789> MuPa isn't playable :)
18:13:03 <OG17> if you make a badly synergized or otherwise intentionally weak character it's going to result in a harder start, this isn't surprising
18:13:45 <dpeg> TGWi: please don't talk about unviables... we could just go back to not having them available.
18:14:01 <casmith789> don't do that :(
18:14:07 <dpeg> And in fact, you should only consider D:1 mortality for viables.
18:14:21 <monky> some "unviables" are really fun
18:14:33 <TGWi> if your response is "you shouldn't think that" then I guess I'm done here
18:14:39 <casmith789> DECr is awesome and it's unviable
18:14:46 <monky> I was thinking DECr too
18:14:54 <OG17> I'd think a good part of "viable" is actually d1 mortality
18:15:04 <OG17> since that generally reflects on later levels
18:15:11 <OG17> well, sort of
18:15:12 <TGWi> it doesn't really
18:15:23 <TGWi> for a lot of casters especially, and initially fragile races
18:16:24 <OG17> yeah, scratch that
18:16:39 <TGWi> also it looks like you're saying "x can be weak because it's unviable, x is unviable because it's weak"
18:16:56 <OG17> that's more of what I was thinking
18:17:26 <casmith789> should MfIE be as easy to start as MfFE?
18:17:36 <dpeg> TGWi: combos are unviable because they are less likely to work well
18:17:51 <dpeg> if those die, nothing happens: we will buff anything becuase of that
18:17:54 <TGWi> combos are allowed to not work well because they're unviable
18:18:19 <TGWi> also I'm not talking about unviable combos at all
18:18:25 <dpeg> It is a problem if viable combinations are too hard to get off the ground (and there's the question of what should be (un)viable, of course.)
18:18:31 <TGWi> I imagine the greatest part of that 30% is decent-ish stuff
18:18:57 <OG17> could you stop throwing out that 30%, it's meaningless
18:19:07 <casmith789> well this is a byproduct of the caster nature of .6/.7
18:19:11 <TGWi> you're right let's listen to anecdotes
18:19:20 <TGWi> those are better
18:19:21 <casmith789> MDFi of oka doesn't die that much on d:1
18:19:37 <monky> mdfi doesn't have oka on d:1
18:19:49 <casmith789> :) MDFi doesn't die much on d:1
18:20:14 <OG17> 30% of characters dying on d10 would be a problem.  On d1 it's a painless restart
18:20:52 <monky> really, I think dying a lot early game is fine, but find the optimal measures to prevent death really annoying
18:21:13 <TGWi> it's a pointless restart
18:21:40 <TGWi> because your next character will be the same, and you'll just be more annoyed
18:22:22 <casmith789> here are the two sides of the coin: 1) if you play an "unviable" combo startscumming is the optimal strategy timewise to win the combo. This doesn't mean starting until you get a ring of slaying or whatever but starting and dying quickly as opposed to trying to avoid death unless you got a good item. 2) Most early game deaths can be avoided but people don't want to employ the thought / pillar dancing so early in a character's life and
18:22:24 <casmith789> would rather roll another one with a book of necromancy on d:2.
18:22:56 <dpeg> casmith789: 1) is not a problem.
18:23:08 <casmith789> didn't say it was
18:23:29 <dpeg> casmith789: in 2), pillar dancing is, but I don't see a convenient alternative and the issue is not as bad as often claimed, imo
18:23:44 <casmith789> if you want to keep a streak you pretty much have to
18:24:11 <dpeg> sure
18:24:12 <casmith789> 3-5 minutes if you're relatively unlucky
18:24:28 <dpeg> casmith789: there's no way around it... ideal play always has a tendency to be slower and more cumbersome
18:24:33 <casmith789> I don't think that the early game is a problem btw
18:24:48 <casmith789> otoh I do find lategame more fun :)
18:24:53 <dpeg> MarvinPA: <3 for patches
18:24:59 <MarvinPA> :)
18:25:09 <casmith789> cough devteam cough
18:25:31 <TGWi> this discussion always ends with "it's no problem" unqualified
18:28:04 <dpeg> TGWi: yes, because the starting hypothesis is quite unqualified as well. Instead of discussing some specific starting kit, it's about early death rates together.
18:29:24 <due> Is it desired behaviour that we're deliberately preventing apport in the orb chamber?
18:29:46 <MarvinPA> i thought that was the whole point of the new subvaults :P
18:29:46 <due> Or rather, trying to make it harder?
18:29:55 <due> dpeg?
18:30:05 <dpeg> due: yes, everyone using apportation was annoying.
18:30:34 <dpeg> due: I am not too happy with the state of the current orb vaults, but I found always using apport to be bad.
18:30:44 <MarvinPA> it's still quite easy, even with the patch i attached you only need to take one step inside the chamber
18:30:50 <due> I dno't like using features to block apport.
18:30:55 <due> Can we not just make the orb resist apportation?
18:30:56 <MarvinPA> although obviously that means being next to orb guardians
18:31:08 <due> ie, you try to apport it but it resists your pull.
18:31:16 <due> You only manage to pull it a few squares, etc.
18:32:32 <kilobyte> it'd be strange to have apportation works on some items but not others because of "mass" if the easier ones are actually lighter
18:32:42 <kilobyte> of course, the Orb _is_ highly magical
18:32:48 <TGWi> the orb isn't really "some items"
18:32:53 <due> kilobyte: the flavour would be that the orb doesn't *want* to leave.
18:32:56 <OG17> lots of three-rune characters seem to depend on quickly apporting the orb
18:32:59 <TGWi> imo it should be allowed to be arbitrary
18:33:11 <due> OG17: yes, so makig it a slower process nerfs this
18:33:12 <OG17> maybe they should be "too weak to win" or something but it's a consideration
18:33:28 <due> If there are no objections I will code this.
18:33:57 <due> dpeg, kilobyte, any objections to the orb resisting your pull with flavour-theme is "the orb does not want to be removed"?
18:34:02 <MarvinPA> i think you shouldn't be able to randomly teleport into the actual orb chamber too, personally
18:34:10 <Eronarn> agreed
18:34:10 <due> MarvinPA: that's a slippery slope, though.
18:34:17 <TGWi> due, I'd phrase it rather differently
18:34:25 <TGWi> and I agree with MarvinPA
18:34:26 <due> TGWi: That's not the phrase,, just the flavour theme.
18:34:33 <MarvinPA> my last win landed about three squares from the orb on the first teleport and barely woke up any of the zot:5 vault
18:34:33 <TGWi> just making sure
18:34:40 <Eronarn> honestly i would extend it to many 'treasure chambers'
18:34:40 <due> Yes, well.
18:34:42 <OG17> it should be more like it resists the pull or grasp or whatever
18:34:42 <due> "The orb shrieks!"
18:34:51 <TGWi> "the orb has a tantrum"
18:34:51 <OG17> instead of personifying it
18:34:53 <due> (when you pick it up and when you try to apport it)
18:34:55 <kilobyte> due: <3
18:34:55 <Eronarn> don't have to force people to do the entire level but i think landing right on top of the loot is kind of lame
18:34:57 <MarvinPA> it's still easy enough if you land in the lung next to the orb chamber
18:35:04 <kilobyte> a shriek would be nice
18:35:10 <due> Oh, shriek is going in.
18:35:19 <due> I'm just finishing up my @?? for vault defined monsters hackiness.
18:35:22 <Eronarn> flash screen magenta, knockback player
18:35:24 <due> But the orb *is* going to shriek.
18:35:25 <dpeg> due: there is a whole list of ideas for the orb. Personally, I think it should be really heavy, and spell power should matter when apporting things. so that not every two bit caster can apport the orb.
18:35:46 <due> dpeg: spell power does matter wwhen apporting things
18:35:51 <OG17> that'd result in people training up tloc for it
18:35:58 <TGWi> making the orb really heavy would be a bit annoying for low-cap races
18:36:00 <OG17> to whatever point they'd need to
18:36:05 <kilobyte> just mass would hurt ogres tossing rocks, and we don't want that
18:36:06 <dpeg> due: but the orb is not heavy :)
18:36:08 <due> hence why it's just going to be a flat fail rate :)
18:36:09 <monky> I was going to say what TGWi said but then TGWi said it
18:36:12 <due> dpeg: flat failure rate.
18:36:18 <TGWi> faking the weight to be higher for apport would be fine though
18:36:24 <casmith789> MarvinPA: it's just luck, that's the point
18:36:29 <due> TGWi: I'm not going to.
18:36:31 <TGWi> or just drag the orb a space instead of apporting it
18:36:34 <dpeg> yes, just add higher weight
18:36:38 <TGWi> or make it flail flatly
18:36:40 <TGWi> idk
18:36:43 <Eronarn> TGWi: "The orb rolls towards you, then stops."
18:36:45 <dpeg> so that low Str guys have to think a bit in advance
18:36:56 <MarvinPA> casmith789: it's not luck when you create a shaft directly above the orb :)
18:37:00 <OG17> it should just be apportable or not, I think
18:37:10 <casmith789> sorry? :)
18:37:17 <due> OG17: You won't be able to directly apport it into your pack unless your tloc is like, 27.
18:37:25 <MarvinPA> casmith789:  that's what i did the previous game :P
18:37:27 <casmith789> you can't choose where shafts go
18:37:28 <due> (In my opinion.)
18:37:32 <MarvinPA> my favourite orb grab ever
18:37:33 <MarvinPA> yes you can
18:37:34 <Eronarn> i think it should not be apportable, but because of vault design, rather than because of any orb-specific property
18:37:42 <casmith789> sorry what
18:37:48 <due> Anyway, I will code up what I am going to code up
18:37:50 <kilobyte> there's so many more interesting problems when lugging the orb than just weight
18:37:59 <MarvinPA> shafts drop you to the same co-ordinates on the floor below, nemelex lets you create shafts
18:38:12 <MarvinPA> figure out roughly where the orb is on zot:5, create a shaft at that location on zot:4
18:38:13 <MarvinPA> win
18:38:25 <due> MarvinPA: shafts will now be randomly placed, you do realise?
18:38:25 <kilobyte> like a glow that looks nice and is terribly unstealthy
18:38:33 <MarvinPA> due: yes, good :P
18:38:38 <Eronarn> wait, what? since when does the orb glow you
18:38:41 <due> kilobyte: I'm very attached to shrieking.
18:38:42 <MarvinPA> i pulled it off once and bug reported it :P
18:38:49 <kilobyte> due: we can have both
18:39:04 <due> okay!
18:39:19 <kilobyte> too bad, a visual effect might be highly distracting in zotdef :(
18:39:26 <due> yeah
18:39:35 <due> magenta halo when you have the orb?
18:39:41 <Eronarn> kilobyte: while the orb of zot is carried, it disco-corrupts levels.
18:39:45 <due> pulsating magenta halo :D
18:39:57 <kilobyte> of course!
18:40:19 <due> dpeg: Are you comfortable with my changing the flavour of the orb to be slightly more "the orb is happy in Zot and does not want to be removed"? The flavour text for orb guardians say that the orb itself created them, so I don't think it's too much of a stretch.
18:40:39 <due> dpeg: I will not directly *say* this, but the orb will shriek, resist attempts to apport (by only being apported a short distance), etc.
18:41:02 <kilobyte> sounds good to me
18:41:05 <OG17> I think that "happy" bit sounds like there'd be problems with just picking it up normally
18:41:14 <dpeg> due: https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:orbrun
18:41:15 <due> OG17: It'll shriek when you pick it up.
18:41:19 <dpeg> I like that page a lot.
18:41:31 <due> dpeg: Okay, I'll take it into consideration when I do it.
18:41:39 <due> dpeg: But I'm just goin tto do minor flavour changes at the minute.
18:41:43 <dpeg> sure sure
18:41:56 <dpeg> just saying that ideas (gameplay and flavour are there)
18:42:01 <OG17> it should continuously shriek if anything, since most people that pick up the orb are already teleporting out
18:42:02 * due nod.
18:42:06 <OG17> unless it blocks ctele or whatever
18:42:20 <Eronarn> "You teleport. The orb doesn't!"
18:42:23 <TGWi> while in zot, the orb should steal your teleports
18:42:30 <TGWi> or delay them like abyss
18:42:51 <Eronarn> TGWi: teleports you into the orb chamber
18:43:08 <dpeg> due: There's a recent bunch of ideas by ubergeek, those are not approved of!
18:43:15 <due> dpeg: yes
18:43:17 <dpeg> (Not saying they're bad, but I can vouch for the others.)
18:43:35 <due> dpeg: I can usually guess which ones you would approve and which ones you wouldn't
18:43:36 <dpeg> all of your ideas so far are already written up =)
18:43:45 <kilobyte> Eronarn: teleporting without the orb would make Abyss a loss
18:43:47 <dpeg> due: that makes me happy :)
18:44:20 <due> I will just do make noises and resisting apport.
18:44:34 <kilobyte> good, that's uncontroversial
18:44:43 <dpeg> Ideally, the orb should feel as if it wasn't a lifeless item, but a little mischievous thing that really wants to be somewhere else than in your backpack
18:45:16 <dpeg> kilobyte: if you'll have a quick look at that page, and tell me if something sticks out as controversial?
18:45:32 <due> gentle changes are always best
18:46:57 <due> Napkin: are you around?
18:47:17 <Napkin> not really, due
18:47:32 <Napkin> but will read my messages in a fe hours
18:47:39 <Napkin> g'night o/
18:48:45 <monky> and the apport resistance would make it fine to get rid of orb chamber subvaults (and crystal pillars from the original), right?
18:49:18 <due> monky: I personally feel so.
18:49:26 <dpeg> monky: yes
18:49:30 <monky> oh good
18:49:41 <dpeg> we could still have different chamblers for flavour reasons
18:50:07 <dpeg> due: what about apporting orb chance of Tloc/27?
18:50:16 <kilobyte> actually, I hate a vast majority of the ideas there
18:50:24 <dpeg> kilobyte: aha :)
18:50:30 <kilobyte> good ones are glow (non-mutagenic preferably) and Boris
18:50:48 <due> dpeg: well ,yes
18:50:55 <kilobyte> or intefering with teleports
18:51:03 <dpeg> kilobyte: was typing that
18:51:07 <due> dpeg: massively high Tloc means you are powerful and the orb finds it difficult to interfere with your magic
18:51:10 <due> dpeg: but...
18:51:15 <due> !log char=mimo ktyp=winning
18:51:18 <Sequell> 1. bookofjude, XL27 MiMo, T:153867: http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/bookofjude/morgue-bookofjude-20091007-114722.txt
18:51:21 <due> I apported the orb with
18:51:31 <dpeg> due: "Looking at it, you feel that only very dedicated translocaters will be powerful enough to move it."
18:51:38 <due> TLOC 3.
18:51:43 <kilobyte> noises are not that bad too
18:51:45 <dpeg> due: hey, I did the same
18:51:52 <due> which was fucking ridiculous in my opinion
18:51:55 <casmith789> kilobyte: recurring monsters, flavour, interfering with teleports, sounds a lot like the "oY to me :p
18:52:05 <dpeg> kilobyte: was typing that... interfering with tele and ctele (not necessarily both at once, can be random) should be good
18:52:08 <due> casmith789: I didn't like the Boris idea for this reason.
18:52:37 <MarvinPA> i like interference with cTele, since that really trivialises most of the orb run even if you do happen to run into a nasty pan lord
18:52:39 <dpeg> I really like the idea that (popcorn) monsters (e.g. from nearby branches) watch at the orb procession and pass out
18:53:01 <TGWi> too cute imo
18:53:13 <TGWi> (passing out)
18:53:15 <dpeg> there'd be no additional messages
18:53:18 <OG17> there's no reason to include boris outside of "haha boris"
18:53:25 <dpeg> just paralysed, confused, asleep monsters
18:53:28 <Eronarn> MarvinPA: turn all teleports into blinks
18:53:33 <OG17> also yeah that's sort of cute
18:53:39 <due> OG17: yup
18:53:40 <dpeg> Galehar has an extremely good point later on the page about tying resistance to number of runes
18:53:51 <dpeg> comments are welcome
18:53:59 <dpeg> do it now, before half of the page is in
18:54:00 <kilobyte> Boris could get _one_ extra chance, and without getting spawned next to you either
18:54:00 <due> "haha boris"<3
18:54:13 <due> kilobyte: Boris next to the D:1 upstairs :)
18:54:29 <dpeg> kilobyte: if Boris comes up in 1/20 of orb runs, that'd suffice for flavour
18:54:31 <kilobyte> instead of 14 Rodney encounters
18:54:34 <dpeg> yes
18:57:15 <Eronarn> i don't think it's a good idea to make 3-runers even weaker comparatively
18:57:24 <Eronarn> unless you mean that more runes = less resistance
18:57:29 <kilobyte> due: next to one particular stairs would just encourage spoilers
18:57:29 <Eronarn> but i kind of doubt that!
18:57:31 <kilobyte> Eronarn: +1
18:58:32 <dpeg> Eronarn: weaker?
18:59:02 <monky> what of picking up runes on the orb run?  would they vanish, would resistance get higher on picking them up, or would going for them with any resistance at all be good enough to balance it?  I personally love the thrill (though I've only done it once: Slime (I should do it more)) and would be sad to see it go :(
18:59:05 * kilobyte would want a way to show people that their win wasn't that hot.  Like, an animation at the end that shows how little they achieved.
18:59:22 <TGWi> show the orb getting stolen again
18:59:42 <kilobyte> The Orb is in another castle.
18:59:42 <sorear> monky: I usually leave the runes on D:1
18:59:49 <TGWi> or, show that retrieving the orb screwed up the world somehow
18:59:54 <due> a win is a win, regardless of whether or not you considr the game complete ;)
19:00:08 <due> TGWi: we don't talk about the outside world much
19:00:30 <TGWi> it has mountains
19:00:31 <TGWi> probably
19:00:42 <sorear> hills?
19:00:46 <Eronarn> dpeg: 3-runers are very weak compared to 15-runers; the last thing we need to do is buff 15-runers by giving them resistance to orb run effects
19:00:46 <dpeg> monky: resistance would depend on how many ruens you have stolen, not how many you carry. Think of it like this: the orb being picked up is a sensation in the dungeon. The naga's whose rune you took now know why you did it...
19:01:02 <dpeg> Eronarn: that was never intended
19:01:18 <sorear> Eronarn: resistance means 1s summoned to stop you from leaving
19:01:32 <monky> dpeg, sorear: I mean diving for the runes on the orb run, not picking them up and stashing them somewhere for it
19:01:58 <kilobyte> Eronarn: wait... you mean you agree with Galehar?  Then s/+1/-1/.
19:01:58 <due> monky: "you're crazy but hey, if you want to..."
19:02:09 <dpeg> for example, for some reason Pan lords feel compelled to hinder you running away with the orb (even if we don't know why) -- now if you plundered Pan before that (got the Pan runes), their resistance should be much stronger
19:02:24 <due> dpeg, kilobyte: Do you mean that if you have the Snake rune you will sometimes have nagas thrown against you?
19:02:27 <dpeg> monky: read what I wrote
19:02:34 <due> dpeg: Hydras for Swamp, slimes for slime, etc? If so, I'm definiely for this.
19:02:41 <Eronarn> okay, i read resistance as being resistance TO, not resistance AGAINST (you)
19:02:42 <due> dpeg: I personally feel that the orb run monster listbeing limited to demons is... meh.
19:02:45 <dpeg> kilobyte: Eronarn misunderstood
19:03:07 <Eronarn> less runes = easier run is generally fine though i'd question why not make that apply to zot too
19:03:07 <dpeg> due: yes. Not sure if we want non-sentient guys there (would be okay to just leave the easy runes out).
19:03:24 <dpeg> Eronarn: it is hard. I tried a few times, and never got concensus.
19:03:26 <TGWi> Eronarn: because you can do zot before getting runes
19:03:32 <due> dpeg: sure
19:03:37 <kilobyte> Eronarn: in so many places we reward "wins" without getting into a quality of that win.
19:03:44 <TGWi> if orb run scales with number of runes, then you shouldn't be allowed to get more runes after grabbing the orb
19:03:56 <monky> dpeg: I must have misinterpreted it the first time, but wouldn't the nagas not know you took the rune yet then because you actually haven't?
19:03:57 <Eronarn> TGWi: if the orb run is sufficiently hard, picking up all the runes will be a lot of extra challenge
19:04:31 <Eronarn> picking up runes after you do the orb is only a problem if you can stash them somewhere imo
19:04:40 <dpeg> monky: don't grok
19:04:56 <dpeg> It's not a matter of carrying the runes.
19:05:05 <kilobyte> another issue: what nagas?  Those you eradicated to a tail, then sacrificed their corpses?
19:05:14 <monky> dpeg: for example, entering Snake for the first time after picking up the orb, diving to Snake:5, and snatching the rune with panlords trailing you
19:05:38 <kilobyte> monky: this one is a risky feat that can be fun
19:05:43 <monky> right
19:05:46 <dpeg> monky: that will be harder than the other way around
19:05:52 <monky> ok
19:06:11 <dpeg> kilobyte: well, you only killed those who were present
19:06:25 <dpeg> history shows that there are always more
19:07:15 <kilobyte> if the player explored every nook and cranny of the Snake Pit, it might be weird to explain
19:07:26 <dpeg> anyway, let's start small and with non-controversial matters
19:07:38 <monky> yeah I imagine a fully mapped snake would be easier to dive
19:07:41 <monky> (but a lot less fun)
19:07:54 <dpeg> kilobyte: I wouldn't mind if extra opposition extends to hells, Abyss, Pan (and perhaps Tomb)
19:08:43 <kilobyte> perhaps even custom monsters
19:08:53 <OG17> there's an infinite number of nagas in the abyss okay
19:09:33 <TGWi> the dungeon is a metaphor
19:10:01 <dpeg> *only* extends to hells etc.
19:11:05 <Gretell> mikee (L27 MfPa) ERROR in 'format.cc' at line 206: Stack underflow (Zig:13)
19:11:20 <due> ... wow
19:11:28 <due> now that is an error I've never see
19:13:26 <sorear> kilobyte: where do the respawns come from?
19:14:23 <kilobyte> sorear: good point
19:15:06 <kilobyte> the messages mention them "coming up the stairs" so probably indeed some were away
19:18:01 <due> they were on holiday
19:19:28 <kilobyte> or, as in proposed description for Deathrattle, "away hunting some spriggans"
19:24:48 -!- blackflare has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
19:27:40 <CIA-113> 03dolorous * rf8ceb34dd25d 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-data.h: Use MST_NO_SPELLS for unborn DDs and DD necromancers.
19:30:38 -!- blackflare has joined ##crawl-dev
19:39:08 <CIA-113> 03chriscampbell89 * r1fdd07e1e0ee 10/crawl-ref/source/religion.cc: Fix Veh's range extension description
19:40:47 <CIA-113> 03dolorous * r6e48eee24407 10/crawl-ref/source/libutil.cc: Properly pluralize "kenku" as "kenku", not "kenkus".
19:40:52 <due> :D
19:41:11 <due> kilobyte: "Delicious spriggans on toast"?
19:41:22 <kilobyte> due: <3
19:41:46 <CIA-113> 03chriscampbell89 * rb914d3ba1811 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/descript/features.txt: Altar descriptions for Fedhas, Jiyva, Vehumet
19:41:59 <TGWi> who's chriscampbell89?
19:42:05 <MarvinPA> <-
19:42:17 <TGWi> you mean your name isn't really marvin?
19:42:24 <MarvinPA> ssshh don't tell anyone
19:42:33 <TGWi> this is devastating
19:42:36 <kilobyte> I forgot how to force SF to update the hooks.
19:44:40 <due> you have to log in via ssh
19:46:51 <enne> MarvinPA: Does it cause you any trouble to have 89 as a last name?
19:47:09 <dpeg> I have sorted the orbrun page a bit, making more clear what I support.
19:47:14 <MarvinPA> hah
19:47:22 <MarvinPA> yes, it's very inconvenient to explain :P
19:47:43 <dpeg> enne: do you recall when you fixed Orc bubblety?
19:48:28 <Eronarn> orc bubble tea
19:48:30 <dpeg> It did work back then, right?
19:49:40 <enne> You'd probably have to do a git blame and check the commits.
19:49:48 <enne> It worked most of the time.
19:50:03 <enne> I think it didn't account for shafts, which got added later.
19:50:15 <enne> So if you skip a level, connectivity guarantees are probably no good.
19:50:30 <TGWi> don't shafts generate intervening levels?
19:50:38 <enne> Oh, do they?
19:50:42 <TGWi> I think I remember this causing problems with portal timers
19:50:44 <kilobyte> they don't AFAIK
19:50:51 <Eronarn> TGWi: yes, i lost a portal that way once
19:50:51 <enne> <- don't assume I know anything
19:50:58 <Eronarn> i don't know if it is still the case though
19:51:13 <TGWi> yeah, that might have been removed to fix the issue
19:52:12 <enne> If only we had any sort of automated testing for Crawl.  :(
19:52:28 <dpeg> enne: there is a little :)
19:52:49 <Eronarn> we have asserts and a pile of players
19:52:51 <Eronarn> that's kind of automated
19:53:20 <enne> ...
19:53:49 <dpeg> I probably just don't know what automated testing means. But I won't learn tonight.
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19:54:55 <due> enne: yes, it would be nice
19:55:06 <due> enne: with lua at least it is slightly more conceivable
19:55:34 <CIA-113> 03kilobyte 07debian-trunk * r91d7b07683db 10/crawl-ref/debian/rules: Fix the symlinks for aptitude.txt and crawl_manual.txt.
19:58:10 <kilobyte> just tried 0.7, Orc:1 as usually had several bubbles
19:58:27 <kilobyte> while all downstairs were reachable, only one upstairs were
19:58:38 <enne> kilobyte: That's fine.
19:58:59 <enne> Were there bubbles without downstairs, upstairs, or shafts?
19:59:15 <kilobyte> no
19:59:32 <Eronarn> imo you should never have to use dig to reach all three upstairs
19:59:39 <Eronarn> it's just annoying
19:59:46 <Eronarn> you'll get dig eventually but might have to come back later
20:00:02 <kilobyte> you often get a bubble with downstairs connected to a bubble with upstairs, though
20:00:28 <enne> So, the connectivity code I wrote ensures that if you get teleported into a random bubble, you'll always be able to make it to an up staircase out of the branch.
20:00:35 <kilobyte> Eronarn: and even worse if that (bad IMO) idea of removing HOPr and forcing them to use an altar on Orc:1 goes live
20:00:44 <Eronarn> ew
20:00:56 <kilobyte> so it doesn't work, even with no shafts involved
20:01:49 <enne> If you have a bubble with just a down stair, then on the next level it recognizes that it's dangling and tries to rearrange staircase numbers to maximize connectivity.
20:02:00 <enne> There could certainly be a bug.
20:02:05 <enne> Or twelve.
20:02:07 <kilobyte> I've had pairs of bubbles disconnected from the rest -- and even one-way stairs out -- multiple times
20:02:18 <enne> One-way stairs out are also fine?
20:03:15 <due> Hm, paaartly this is working but partly not.
20:03:19 -!- bf has joined ##crawl-dev
20:03:31 <enne> I think the algorithm is sound (or maybe you disagree), but the implementation might not be right.
20:03:45 <Ashenzari> Make summon butterflies reliant on spell power (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3214) by MarvintheParanoidAndroid
20:03:55 -!- blackflare has quit []
20:04:37 <kilobyte> they don't leave you trapped, but I personally don't think that's enough, and so does Eronarn
20:04:51 <kilobyte> but pairs that do leave you trapped are worse, of course
20:04:51 <Eronarn> 'not that that matters for much'
20:05:55 <enne> Pairs that leave you trapped are not intended.
20:06:51 <enne> Please write the connectivity code if you think it'd be better to avoid needing digging.
20:07:32 <enne> The code I wrote does three things:
20:07:50 <enne> Er, or makes sure every location is one of three things:
20:08:02 <enne> 1) You are in a location that is known to be connected to the branch exit.
20:08:11 <enne> 2) You are in a location that has a down stair (one way or stone).
20:08:50 <enne> 3) Every location in the branch bottom is connected to a branch exit.
20:09:02 <enne> In other words, you can always proceed downwards and then out.
20:09:57 <kilobyte> 1) results in all but one upstairs on Orc:1 being disconnected in most cases
20:10:16 <kilobyte> 2) and 3) are not enough to ensure Elf is reachable
20:10:42 <enne> I was just solving the "make a teleport not a death sentence" problem.
20:10:54 <kilobyte> right
20:11:19 <enne> Is it really so bad to need digging?
20:11:28 <kilobyte> there's a bug somewhere that prevents this guarantee from working, but that can be found and fixed
20:11:28 <enne> Maybe without divinations, it is?
20:11:52 <enne> (Mostly I'm just curious, not arguing.)
20:12:38 -!- bf has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
20:12:44 * due stabs C++ a lot.
20:13:18 <due> The only issueI can see with requiring digging is that felids can't use wands.
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20:13:54 <Eronarn> due: there are two variables: is there a timed portal, and do you have digging
20:14:01 <Eronarn> timed portal, has digging: not interesting
20:14:08 <Eronarn> timed portal, doesn't have digging: extremely frustrating
20:14:18 <Eronarn> no timed portal, no digging: not interesting
20:14:19 <kilobyte> you can have no wand of digging until very late, or not at all, but this is not a blocker
20:14:24 <Eronarn> no timed portal, digging: not interesting
20:14:37 <kilobyte> due: and that... FeBe especially
20:14:41 <due> kilobyte: Yup.
20:14:54 <Eronarn> (margnally interesting if there's shops, or an untimed portal, but imo not enough to justify the annoyance of the above situations)
20:15:02 <kilobyte> what is a big problem is that you need to be spoiled to know Elf is always guaranteed
20:15:37 <due> We can update the documentation.
20:25:36 <due> Okay, I think I am either rubbish at this or this doesnot work how it should.
20:26:27 <due> ... *OH.
20:26:32 <due> It just entirely doe snot work.
20:27:20 <due> what is my crawl misisng that CDO has?
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20:31:09 <due> kilobyte: Do you know what mods havebeen made to the repo for monster that I might be missing?
20:32:15 <due> There is no differece :/
20:32:22 <Gretell> lkid (L14 DSNe) ASSERT(in_bounds(mons->target) || mons->target.origin()) in 'mon-act.cc' at line 2365 failed. (Lair:8)
20:33:59 <due> greensnark: around?
20:40:51 <pointless_> hm crazy yiuf appears to be missing his forest
20:46:03 <kilobyte> due: I added dbg-asrt.cc (and crash-u.cc, required by it) to the makefile
20:46:16 <kilobyte> or actually, removed the line that axed them
20:50:10 <due> kilobyte: it's all right, my faultt
21:05:44 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
21:12:15 <due> how do I just nuke a monster from menv?
21:12:17 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev
21:13:07 <due> zaba!
21:13:11 * due hug Zaba.
21:13:45 <pointless_> due: probably monster_die
21:14:19 <due> ah
21:14:22 <due> mons_rmeove_from_grid
21:16:25 <pointless_> remove from grid takes the monster out of mgrid, but doesn't do anything to menv
21:16:34 <pointless_> unless I'm misremembering what menv is
21:17:47 <due> it seem to be eough, though...
21:18:03 <due> I meant mgrid, not menv, rather.
21:18:20 <pointless_> ah
21:20:35 <Gretell> WasJordan (L14 MDFi) ASSERT(in_bounds(mons->target) || mons->target.origin()) in 'mon-act.cc' at line 2365 failed. (Lair:8)
21:20:45 <due> :(
21:26:55 <due> yay it... kinda works.
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21:36:46 <due> HAHAH!
21:36:49 <due> I had a hundred "it" monters. :0
21:39:15 <Ashenzari> Crash on Lair:8 (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3215) by WasJordan
21:47:30 <Gretell> mikee (L27 MfPa) ERROR in 'format.cc' at line 206: Stack underflow (Zig:13)
21:52:04 <Gretell> mikee (L27 MfPa) ERROR in 'format.cc' at line 206: Stack underflow (Zig:13)
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22:04:09 <due> wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
22:04:14 <due> Napkin, greensnark, it works!
22:04:21 <due> zot statue (068) | Speed: 10 | HD: 30 | Health: 300 | AC/EV: 12/1 | Damage: 20 | Flags: 11non-living, !sil | Res: 13magic(immune), 05fire, 02cold, 10elec++, 03poison | XP: 14377 | Sp: eyeballs, polymorph other, haste, shadow creatures, small mammals.
22:05:25 <sorear> I hope that's haste other :p
22:05:37 <due> I've no idea
22:05:42 <due> *but8
22:05:45 <casmith789> the colour formatting messed up
22:05:47 <due> sorear, vault-defined monsters in @??!
22:06:03 <due> casmith789: ... I copied and pasted it from my terminal, did you honestly think it was going to be correct?
22:06:09 <casmith789> ah :)
22:06:22 <casmith789> for some reason I thought gretell said it :P
22:06:35 <due> :)
22:08:16 <Eronarn> due: what's it do if there are two vault-defined monsters with different stats but the same names?
22:08:37 <due> Eronarn: the top-most one in the list will be returned.
22:08:50 <due> Eronarn: the player will be unable to tell them apart, likewise Gretell cannot.
22:09:00 <due> I'm not saying it's *perfect*.
22:09:00 <TGWi> does this mean we can't get monsters easily by putting them in vaults anymore?
22:09:11 <due> TGWi: you've lost me?
22:09:22 <due> TGWi: this rips monster definitions out of maps.
22:09:29 <due> TGWi: it should expand to any monster created in a map.
22:09:45 <TGWi> monsters getting added to the real game because they're used in vault definitions and people want them to show up in ?/m
22:09:48 <TGWi> and @?
22:09:57 <due> ?/m will not work.
22:10:20 <due> Some monsters that are more than just one-offs will still get added into the game.
22:11:04 <MarvinPA> speaking of those
22:11:09 <Eronarn> due is The Worst for making us not have to answer questions about 'what the heck is an archer statue' any more
22:11:27 <MarvinPA> laboratory rat skeletons/zombies show up in crypt now, as that intentional?
22:11:36 <due> MarvinPA: er, no
22:11:41 <due> MarvinPA: I will fix this in a moment
22:11:43 <MarvinPA> okay, well they do
22:11:45 <MarvinPA> cool :)
22:11:55 * due starts a new todo list
22:12:06 <TGWi> MarvinPA: make a patch renaming big fish and giant goldfish
22:12:13 <MarvinPA> what to
22:12:14 <Eronarn> that gives me a good idea
22:12:16 <Eronarn> thanks, MarvinPA!
22:12:25 <MarvinPA> any time
22:12:27 <MarvinPA> whatever i did
22:14:12 <due> Okay, time to document.
22:14:53 <TGWi> pick literally any two species of fish
22:15:14 <MarvinPA> @??giant goldfish
22:15:15 <Gretell> giant goldfish (04;) | Speed: 10 | HD: 7 | Health: 25-53 | AC/EV: 5/7 | Damage: 15 | Flags: cold-blooded | Res: 06magic(28) | XP: 124.
22:15:17 <MarvinPA> @??big fish
22:15:18 <Gretell> big fish (09;) | Speed: 10 | HD: 4 | Health: 13-32 | AC/EV: 1/12 | Damage: 8 | Flags: cold-blooded | Res: 06magic(16) | XP: 41.
22:15:31 <MarvinPA> giant goldfish do more damage, who knew
22:16:00 <monky> catfish and dogfish
22:16:07 <OG17> do the anglerfish thing from the wiki
22:16:11 <TGWi> marlin and swordfish
22:16:14 <TGWi> actually yeah do anglerfish
22:18:35 <due> TGWi: tiles.
22:18:56 <TGWi> that's true
22:23:32 <due> Should I put "VAULT" in vault monsters/
22:23:36 <due> I think I will.
22:41:44 <Eronarn> carp
22:41:54 <Eronarn> because crawl needs more DF refs
22:54:14 <Gretell> murphyslaw (L14 DDNe) ASSERT(in_bounds(mons->target) || mons->target.origin()) in 'mon-act.cc' at line 2365 failed. (Lair:8)
22:55:56 <due> @??mara
22:55:57 <Gretell> Mara (13R) | Speed: 10 | HD: 18 | Health: 140 | AC/EV: 10/14 | Damage: 30 | Flags: 05demonic, evil, see invisible, !sil | Res: 06magic(144), 05fire++, 03poison | XP: 7145 | Sp: blink; mislead, b.fire (3d27), mara summon, illusion, pain (d17), teleport self.
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22:56:43 <due> hi murphy_slaw
22:56:51 <murphy_slaw> howdy
22:56:57 <due> where you near the edge of the map?
22:57:26 <murphy_slaw> no, i was just north of the big forest vault that takes up the lower quarter of the map
22:57:37 <due> hm
22:57:51 <due> for some reason its target is out of bounds
22:58:08 <murphy_slaw> the hellion?
22:59:01 <due> well, I don't know which monster
22:59:04 <due> but a monster
22:59:08 <due> were you invisible?
22:59:10 <due> did it try to teleport you?
22:59:16 <murphy_slaw> not at that point
22:59:31 <due> hm
22:59:33 <murphy_slaw> yeah, I think it tried to teleport me, I missed some of the messages as it craashed
23:01:12 <murphy_slaw> though i did have stasis when it crashed, so it's unlikely that i was trying to teleport into an invalid location
23:03:02 <due> well
23:03:08 <due> !lm murphy_slaw crash
23:03:08 <Sequell> 5. [2011-01-15] murphyslaw the Reanimator (L14 DDNe) ASSERT(in bounds(mons->target) || mons->target.origin()) in 'mon-act.cc' at line 2365 failed on turn 28163. (Lair:8)
23:03:18 <due> either it's target as (-1, -1) or
23:03:28 <due> (100, 210) or something
23:06:48 <due> Zaba: It amuses me how your Zonguldrok zombies code has been reused as the de-facto code standard for post-build monstergeneration via lua :)
23:30:47 <CIA-113> 03due * ra6f5c8a88666 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/portals/wizlab.des: Copy vault-defined monster specifications into the actual definitions.
23:37:57 <Gretell> Windows development builds on CDO updated to: 0.8.0-a0-4585-ga6f5c8a
23:41:06 <due> @??Rat
23:41:06 <Gretell> rat (07r) | Speed: 10 | HD: 1 | Health: 1-4 | AC/EV: 1/10 | Damage: 3 | Res: 06magic(1) | XP: 1.
23:41:10 <due> @??RaT
23:41:11 <Gretell> rat (07r) | Speed: 10 | HD: 1 | Health: 1-4 | AC/EV: 1/10 | Damage: 3 | Res: 06magic(1) | XP: 1.
23:53:43 <Gretell> Unstable branch on CDO updated to: 0.8.0-a0-4585-ga6f5c8a (32)
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23:54:46 <due> @??zot statue
23:54:47 <Gretell> zot statue (068) | Speed: 10 | HD: 30 | Health: 300 | AC/EV: 12/1 | Damage: 20 | Flags: 11non-living, !sil, 07vault | Res: 13magic(immune), 05fire, 02cold, 10elec++, 03poison | XP: 14377 | Sp: eyeballs, polymorph other, haste, shadow creatures, small mammals.
23:54:49 <due> :DDD!!!
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