00:12:12 <Ashenzari> Game prompts for entering mephitic cloud with identified clarity (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3187) by Tenaya
00:37:20 <Ashenzari> God gift (and acquirement ?) can be unusable if in foo- form (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3188) by Tenaya
01:57:53 <Zaba> moin
01:59:39 <Zaba> can windows really not handle : in filenames?
02:02:01 <greensnark> Yeah, Windows doesn't like : in names because it uses C: etc as volume designators
02:02:09 <Zaba> oh right.
02:02:13 <bhaak> I think that also depends on the fs, but NTFS certainly can handle it
02:02:21 <Zaba> well, the changes that have happened overnight are great :P
02:02:39 <greensnark> There's an alternative syntax that you can use with a leading // that allows you to use complicated filenames
02:02:55 <greensnark> Or was it a leading /, don't recall
02:03:12 <bhaak> it might confuse applications and the file explorer doesn't allow you to use : in filenames, but when using a shell you don't have any problem
02:03:28 <Zaba> greensnark, lua-free saves are merged, right?
02:03:46 <greensnark> No idea, just got off work
02:04:14 <Zaba> oh yes, it totally is.
02:04:55 <Zaba> and new major version, and sane level chunk naming in saves, and what not
02:05:00 <sorear> lua-free?  so lua hooks save data in a PODish form now?
02:05:26 <due> hi
02:05:33 <due> Zaba: yes
02:05:49 <greensnark> sorear: Lua always used the tags.cc code to marshall/unmarshall, but one of the datatypes it used to marshall was Lua functions as bytecode
02:06:08 <greensnark> That last bit is changed to use only global Lua functions and save the function name instead of the bytecode
02:06:16 <sorear> greensnark: I've seen the evil code to support that :|
02:06:32 <greensnark> sorear: Support what?
02:07:37 <sorear> greensnark: Saving bytecode chunks
02:07:47 <greensnark> Oh, was it evil? :)
02:08:02 <greensnark> Well, evil in the sense of saving bytecode into a save file
02:08:04 <sorear> Our lua has crawl-specific patches, that alone was terrible
02:08:27 <greensnark> Yeah, that was unwarranted
02:08:35 <greensnark> But lots of games tend to fork their Lua
02:08:52 <greensnark> I don't think we need to, though
02:08:56 <sorear> Does marshallFloat still do that type punning thing that won't work reliably if long long and double are different sizes?
02:09:00 <greensnark> We're not exactly doing anything awesomely complex
02:09:15 <sorear> If you're still looking for save compatibility tasks
02:09:18 <greensnark> Yeah, it still does
02:09:26 <greensnark> Oh, I'm not looking for tasks today :P
02:09:42 <greensnark> marshallFloat could just save the string representation and call it a day
02:09:49 <greensnark> It's not like we use it in 2000 places
02:11:53 <due> mmm floating strings
02:12:04 * due dumps a pile of strings into a bucket of water to see which ones float
02:13:38 <greensnark> I see kilobyte has been touching up the icon :)
02:14:30 <greensnark> All these days and I didn't realise we had an svg icon <3
02:14:38 <greensnark> I can totally use this for full size Mac icons
02:14:40 <due> mmmmsvg
02:14:49 <greensnark> Instead of that tiny png
02:15:35 <greensnark> Also I don't think I want to know what chunks are floating in the soup
02:27:10 <Zaba> lol
02:28:01 <due> yummy chunks of hydrochloric shadow dragon
02:28:22 <greensnark> One of the chunks is oozing in a slightly nauseating way down the side of the cauldron :P
02:29:49 <greensnark> <3 zsh, it even lets me autocomplete stuff on my path where I only know the middle of the name
02:30:13 <Zaba> hmm.  Nothing in the C++ code uses marshallFloat directly, it seems
02:30:47 <greensnark> Zaba: Toss it!
02:30:55 <greensnark> Lua doesn't allow saving floats so we're cool :)
02:31:04 <greensnark> Any Lua user can always convert to string and save
02:31:31 <Zaba> what's CrawlStoreValue used for?
02:31:44 <greensnark> It's use in CrawlVectors
02:31:53 <greensnark> And CrawlHashTables
02:32:04 <greensnark> i.e. for things like monster and item extended properties
02:32:59 <Zaba> it supports storing floats.  Not sure whether it's ever used for anything, though
02:33:15 <due> Zaba: look for get_float()
02:33:34 <due> Zaba: if it's used to store a float that should locate them
02:33:53 <Zaba> hm, that is indeed used
02:34:11 <Zaba> for iood coordinates
02:34:38 <due> Zaba: alter it to convert to string and then back agani? (or is this problematic? I'm rubbish at understanding floats)
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02:50:19 <greensnark> Saving as string is probably the safest way to serialise floats
02:50:35 <greensnark> And we save so few there's no cost to speak of
02:50:56 <greensnark> But since we just bumped major version you'd have to put in another shim :P
02:51:10 <RjY> printf("%a") is nice if you can assume it exists. strtod will read it back in.
02:51:24 <greensnark> RjY: neat, didn't know that
02:52:15 <greensnark> What standard is that from? Is it likely to not exist
02:52:33 <RjY> a, A   (C99; not in SUSv2)
02:53:20 <RjY> it's a c99 thing so i guess microsoft might be problematic
02:53:34 <due> Our Microsoft support is terrible at best :)
02:54:43 <greensnark> "Now, the Visual C++ compiler team receives the occasionally question as to why we haven’t implemented C99. It’s really based on interest from our users."
02:54:52 <greensnark> MS just has users that suck :P
02:55:41 <due> Well, no, they just go "oh well we have to use Microsoft's" rather than go through the hassle of trying to get Microsoft ot change.
02:55:57 <greensnark> See above! :P
02:56:32 <due> They each use the other for excuse purposes. :D
02:57:30 <greensnark> I suppose we can just use inexact decimal strings for the Microserfs and %a for people with real compilers
02:58:32 <greensnark> Although I guess that means people loading other saves on VC++ compiled Crawl will get a mild surprise
02:58:41 <greensnark> Does MS do strtod correctly
02:59:14 <greensnark> I think we already use a lot of C99 stuff. Does anyone build with VC++ here
02:59:37 <due> No.
02:59:42 <RjY> another thing i found that worked is you frexp your number and store exponent as an int and (mantissa*INT64_MAX) as an int64_t
03:00:21 <RjY> then to load it back you use ldexp with (double)(mantissa)/INT64_MAX
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03:00:55 <RjY> amazingly that doesnt lose accuracy, i think because a double mantissa is only accurate to 53 bits so it fits into 64 bits
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03:01:37 <due> We need a unique named "Mantissa". They kill you with numahs.
03:01:39 <due> *numbahs.
03:01:49 <greensnark> Ooh, that's clever
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03:02:02 <greensnark> I'd never thought of splitting the double
03:02:04 <RjY> summons 1s, 2s, ...
03:02:22 <due> RjY: <33333333333333333
03:02:39 <RjY> can you summon statues and golems?
03:02:48 <RjY> and trees? :P
03:02:48 <due> Yes.
03:02:51 <due> Hm.
03:02:53 <monky> gargoyles
03:02:54 <due> Maybe not trees.
03:03:09 <due> But we've still nothing on 6.
03:03:20 <due> What were we going to use 6 for?
03:03:22 <RjY> and i guess tiles users wouldn't get the joke :)
03:03:24 <monky> demonspawn if they ever become proper monsters?
03:03:27 <sorear> (sign << 63) + ((exp + 1023) << 53) + (int)((mant - 1) * (1LL << 53)); // Just for fun
03:03:43 <sorear> (numbers may be slightly wrong)
03:03:58 <due> sorear: (I refuse to believe you could ever be wrong :D)
03:04:34 <sorear> (also this won't quite work for denormals, infinities, NaNs, and zeros)
03:08:10 <Ashenzari> Lernaean Hydra Corpse appears as question mark (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3189) by felixnothus
03:08:17 <due> hm, interesting
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03:16:55 <CIA-113> 03greensnark * r6b5b975f26f6 10/crawl-ref/source/mac/Crawl.icns: Use dcss.svg for fullsized Mac Crawl icon.
03:16:56 -!- Fangorn_ has quit [Quit: Fangorn_]
03:17:06 <CIA-113> 03greensnark * rd50b30d90279 10/crawl-ref/source/ (dat/tiles/stone_soup_icon-512x512.png tilesdl.cc): Use fullsized icon as window icon for Mac tiles.
03:35:02 <kilobyte> greensnark: thanks, I totally forgotten about Fruits
03:35:43 <due> Fruits?
03:35:53 <greensnark> I presume he means Apple Macs :P
03:36:00 <due> Oh.
04:00:06 <Napkin> Moin guys
04:00:06 <Henzell> Napkin: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them.
04:01:10 <greensnark> !coffee Napkin
04:01:11 * Henzell hands Napkin a barrel of soy latte, brewed by Sigmund.
04:02:09 <greensnark> Napkin: Another sudden lagspike to CDO today :( Ping time through the Hetzner box is 50% lower :P
04:02:36 <greensnark> Oh weird, it just equalized again
04:02:43 <Napkin> yeah, happens
04:02:51 * kilobyte tosses some ICMP traffic onto the pile just to make it a bit worse.
04:03:01 <Napkin> did you see, that hetzner no longer gives ipv4 addresses?
04:03:25 <Napkin> not sure how to cope with that...
04:04:43 <Napkin> and - omg thanks - really need that barrel today ;)
04:04:53 <greensnark> Napkin: Oh, didn't see that
04:05:04 <Napkin> https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=237
04:05:26 <greensnark> I know that when I asked for my second IP address some four months ago they made me answer twenty questions :P
04:05:31 <Napkin> alone the title causes me to refuse having it in "Game Design Discussion" - opinions?
04:06:10 <Napkin> seems like now they only give ipv6 for the promised 4 ips
04:06:20 <greensnark> Napkin: Ooh, nasty
04:06:23 <Napkin> ipv4 addresses cost extra..
04:06:31 <greensnark> Napkin: But it's only to be expected since the pool is almost empty
04:06:33 <Napkin> but ok, I could like with that.. but still - sucky
04:06:34 <kilobyte> dig -t aaaa crawl.develz.org -> birds chirping
04:06:54 <kilobyte> (not that it does matter yet)
04:07:02 <Napkin> pardon, kilobyte?
04:07:29 <kilobyte> I mean, no one bothers setting up an ipv6 address for servers these days.
04:07:35 <greensnark> Napkin: I think he was looking for your ipv6 address :)
04:07:54 <greensnark> kilobyte: Not much point setting it up yet, sadly
04:08:00 <Napkin> ah, nono, the current provider doesn't even present me with ipv6 as an option
04:08:00 <kilobyte> yeah
04:08:09 <kilobyte> and hosting without public ipv4 is worthless
04:08:38 <Napkin> I pay 8 euro monthly for the additional 15 ips.. ipv4
04:08:57 <Napkin> with hetzner that now seems to be 15+15 per month...
04:09:02 <kilobyte> NATted ipv4 + ipv6 for clients is adequate, but for servers, no way
04:09:49 <greensnark> due: Please give Duvessa the berserk rage spell when Dowan dies :P
04:10:06 <Napkin> not sure yet what to do.. let's see.. still some time left :)
04:13:32 <Ashenzari> Hill Giant + GSC tiles don't fit together (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3190) by Galefury
04:16:46 <CIA-113> 03greensnark * r24ca22cdc0eb 10/crawl-ref/source/spl-selfench.cc: Acknowledge Escape at amnesia scroll prompt with an explicit "Ok, then" instead of leaving the prompt dangling looking like it still wants an answer.
04:18:09 <greensnark> I can't believe bloody Sigmund nearly waxed my L7 mummy
04:19:29 <kilobyte> !lg * killer=Sigmund s=xl
04:19:31 <Sequell> 23042 games for * (killer=Sigmund): 9989x 3, 5342x 4, 4265x 2, 1893x 5, 725x 6, 418x 1, 284x 7, 95x 8, 30x 9, 1x 10
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04:19:54 <kilobyte> !lg . killer=Sigmund s=xl
04:19:54 <Sequell> 169 games for kilobyte (killer=Sigmund): 70x 3, 38x 4, 31x 2, 13x 6, 10x 5, 4x 7, 2x 8, 1x 9
04:27:46 <due> greensnark: Yes, I'm considering that.
04:28:03 <greensnark> due: It's way too easy to cheese her just by leaving the level and returning
04:28:24 <due> Yeah.
04:28:31 <due> But she only goes berserk when she sees you.
04:28:40 <greensnark> !lg . killer=Sigmund s=xl
04:28:40 <Sequell> 9 games for greensnark (killer=Sigmund): 6x 3, 2x 2, 1x 4
04:28:47 <greensnark> due: I was prudently camped on the upstairs :P
04:28:55 <Napkin> so, let's have a look at those scripts.. -<UID> was completely removed, right? For DGL builds too?
04:30:53 <kilobyte> of course, you can #define SAVE_SUFFIX "-2002.cs", but that would be lame
04:38:05 <Napkin> that question was actually to make sure nothing was forgotten ;)
04:42:27 <Keskitalo> still can't get a connection to cdo/wordpress, so weird (also hi and good day!)
04:42:55 <Napkin> moin Eino :)
04:43:15 <Keskitalo> Hello Napkin (:
04:43:41 <greensnark> Keskitalo: Does using https help?
04:43:52 <greensnark> Keskitalo: doy called, he wants his smilies back
04:45:48 <Zaba> hm.
04:46:03 <Napkin> Keskitalo, see our query, please :)
04:46:05 <greensnark> So I had to beat a retreat from a Bailey I could have totally stomped with the old sticky flame :)
04:46:44 <kilobyte> good!
04:47:33 <greensnark> Yes, it was quite refreshing
04:47:50 <Napkin> a bailey without shallow water?
04:47:53 <greensnark> Although I nearly screamed "Banzai" and charged the orc knight :P
04:48:02 <greensnark> Napkin: It had deep water, but I lacked meph :P
04:48:19 <Zaba> a curious side effect of using level_id::describe for naming save chunks is that portal vaults get appropriate names in saves now, rather than just 'ptl'
04:48:27 <greensnark> Levels feel a lot more interesting in 0.8 with all the early vaults
04:49:15 <greensnark> I didn't get the gnoll camp this time though, I was so looking forward to showing the gnolls who owns this dungeon :'(
04:50:42 <Keskitalo> greensnark: Wow, that did help!
04:50:45 <Keskitalo> thanks :)
04:51:28 <greensnark> Keskitalo: Sounds like you have a proxy sitting between you and CDO, eating your wordpress :)
04:51:51 <kilobyte> Zaba: yeah, except for Zigs which get "Port" or the previous depth when the level is generated.  It does work well if you save, so in my testing it passed.
04:52:13 <Keskitalo> greensnark: awesome re: bailey
04:52:36 <greensnark> Keskitalo: I could have stomped it anyway if I had mephitic cloud :)
04:52:36 <Keskitalo> greensnark: it has a CHANCE 10% and comes up only in open, cave and cross layouts (generally open levels)
04:52:41 <Keskitalo> greensnark: boo meph
04:52:55 <greensnark> Yeah, we really need to nerf the low end meph
04:52:58 <kilobyte> there's just junk in the save file (n+1 waste levels if you visited n levels of a Zig), and a level might possibly be generated again after a crash
04:52:59 <Keskitalo> greensnark: will you do the spell power clouds stuff some time? :)
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04:53:22 <Zaba> kilobyte, I get Zig:1 in the save
04:53:23 <greensnark> Keskitalo: Sounds like a plan! Is it on the wiki?
04:53:28 <Zaba> for zig:1
04:53:42 <Keskitalo> greensnark: yeah, dcss:brainstorm:magic:mephitic_cloud or some such
04:53:57 <Zaba> greensnark, saving & loading on Zig:1 seemed to have broken onclimb
04:54:08 <greensnark> Zaba: Oh, nice
04:54:12 <Zaba> or maybe it was broken even without saving and loading.
04:54:13 <greensnark> Let me take a look
04:54:26 <Zaba> notify_dgn_event: Lua error: .../git/crawl-ref/crawl-ref/source/dat/clua/lm_1way.lua:34: attempt to call field 'onclimb' (a string value)
04:54:32 <due> aw string
04:54:46 <kilobyte> seems to be harmless
04:55:48 <Zaba> the depth is not incremented
04:56:26 <due> infinite zig yayz!
04:57:35 <CIA-113> 03greensnark * r7103df2b428b 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/clua/lm_1way.lua: Correctly wrap OneWayStair onclimb callback with global_function (Zaba).
04:57:38 <kilobyte> I still get Zig:2, Zig:17 in the game and in saves
04:58:36 <greensnark> Actually, that commit is still broken :P
04:58:41 <greensnark> Should have closed the old Crawl :P
04:59:06 <due> global_function?
04:59:23 <kilobyte> Lua error: /home/kilobyte/crawl/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/portals/ziggurat.des:484:
04:59:26 <kilobyte> .../kilobyte/crawl/crawl-ref/source/dat/clua/fnwrap.lua:75: Expected global function name, got nil:stack traceback:
04:59:29 <kilobyte> infinite loop
04:59:39 <due> mmm loopilicious
04:59:44 <Zaba> infinite?
04:59:54 <CIA-113> 03greensnark * r5cc8e1883ac6 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/clua/lm_1way.lua: Refix global_function() call for OneWayStair onclimb.
05:01:13 <Zaba> okay, now it seems to work
05:01:20 <greensnark> Actually, it's broken differently now
05:01:26 <greensnark> Let me study this a little more :P
05:01:30 <Zaba> oh yes
05:01:33 <Zaba> 65 Failed to load Lua persist table: ...a/git/crawl-ref/crawl-ref/source/dat/clua/fnwrap.lua:30: Could not resolve 'callback.ziggurat_initialiser' to a function
05:01:52 <Zaba> and ASSERT(_read_offset+size <= _pbuf->size()) in 'tags.cc' at line 166 failed.
05:02:22 <Zaba> kilobyte, but the chunk names for zigs are correct
05:05:55 <kilobyte> this time there's no "Port" but a "Ziggura"
05:06:06 <Zaba> I get Zig:1, Zig:2, etc.
05:06:32 <kilobyte> no "Zig:1", too... just "Ziggura" without "t"
05:06:58 <kilobyte> on restore, ASSERT(type != SV_NONE || (flags & SFLAG_UNSET)) in 'store.cc' at line 569 failed.
05:07:48 <Zaba> did you, I dunno, try regenerating saves/des? :P
05:08:48 <Napkin> this -2002 is really not nice to the scripts :-/
05:10:31 <greensnark> Looks like Lua preludes are not being run before loading saves
05:11:00 <greensnark> Which won't affect you if you just blew away your .des cache, but will nuke your game if you had a .des cache
05:16:25 <greensnark> So now you land in random spots in the Ziggurat  :P
05:16:33 <greensnark> I wonder whose fault that would be :P
05:16:48 * greensnark proposes removing Ziggurats.
05:17:22 <Zaba> maybe 'twas my fault
05:17:30 <due> IT'S ALL ZABAS FAULT
05:17:35 <Zaba> I don't know, though, dgn_find_nearby_stair and its call sites are all messy as seven hells
05:17:39 <greensnark> I was hoping it would be Zaba's stair changes :)
05:17:40 <due> Alterantely, IT'S ALL ZEBRAS FAULT
05:18:25 <Zaba> greensnark, all I did was fix &~ :P
05:18:33 <Zaba> or well.  Correct it slightly
05:19:10 <Zaba> greensnark, can't one place a marker on the stone arch or something
05:19:11 <Zaba> in zigs
05:20:03 <Zaba> oh what the hell
05:20:56 <due> what did you dooooo
05:21:05 <Zaba> I found a bug
05:21:09 <CIA-113> 03greensnark * ra0fdfd53fa3c 10/crawl-ref/source/ (7 files in 2 dirs): Fix Ziggurat save/load failure.
05:21:23 <Zaba> I went into a bazaar and did &u
05:21:33 <Zaba> that landed me in a shop, and exiting the shop causes an assertion faliure
05:23:17 <greensnark> Haha
05:23:50 <Zaba> because of some weird display bug
05:25:22 <Zaba> hmm.
05:25:43 <greensnark> Zaba: You put the random floor search before the find-the-marker search :P
05:25:43 <Zaba> Level entry point on closest stair: 86 (stone_stairs_up_i)
05:25:51 <Zaba> greensnark, it's always been that way!
05:26:03 <Zaba> but why on earth is it looking for an up staircase in zig
05:26:41 <greensnark> Because zig relies on the marker search for a feature marker going up
05:26:42 <Zaba> greensnark, I've repeatedly broken the random floor search, though, I killed quite a bunch of fallthrough cases, I believe :P
05:26:53 <Zaba> maybe the marker search should be moved up
05:27:06 <greensnark> Because some bright sparks wanted random stone arches in the zig so I couldn't just use stone arch as search feat :P
05:27:22 <greensnark> Zaba: Yeah, will do
05:27:40 <Zaba> greensnark, let the random floor search be something for emergencies :P
05:27:47 <greensnark> Yeah
05:27:57 <Zaba> greensnark, speaking of dgn_find_nearby_stair, can anything be done with that scary way it iterates over cells in the first two passes?
05:28:01 <Zaba> I mean, it's horrid
05:28:13 <Zaba> I did the maths, and I understand that the purpose is to visit closest cells first, but...
05:29:16 * greensnark does not want to look at that now.
05:31:28 <kilobyte> this time I get Ziggura, Zig:2 and Zig:3, but otherwise all seems to work just fine (sans cleaning dead levels on leaving them, but it's just a waste of disk space as doing second Zig doesn't reuse them)
05:32:19 <Zaba> kilobyte, I get Zig:1, Zig:2, etc., still :P
05:32:22 <Zaba> no Ziggura
05:33:00 <CIA-113> 03greensnark * rbf614850bc5d 10/crawl-ref/source/dungeon.cc: Fix dgn_find_nearby_stair to place the PC correctly on descending Ziggurat stairs.
05:33:22 <greensnark> What happened to our plan of replacing Ziggurat with a real branch
05:33:32 <greensnark> Although that would mess with save compatibility again :P
05:33:53 <Zaba> it would be quite a mess with level generation, too
05:33:58 <Zaba> and probably everything else :P
05:34:09 <greensnark> Zaba: Why, just add a branch flag to say that this branch uses vaults for every level
05:34:27 <greensnark> build_method member on the branch struct, maybe
05:34:50 <Napkin> still 46 savegames with .chr as extention :-O
05:34:58 <kilobyte> greensnark: it'd affect only people currently in a Zig, and they can be moved away
05:35:03 <greensnark> Napkin: rm *.chr!
05:35:47 <kilobyte> Napkin: I'll ask you for removing all trunk saves with major <31 when I'm done with Unicodizing DGL, so it's not a big loss.
05:36:09 <kilobyte> (or alternatively, to recompile all past trunk versions, which is probably not what you want)
05:36:09 <Napkin> some of them have a quite recent timestamp
05:36:19 <kilobyte> oh hrm
05:36:43 <Zaba> greensnark, something about beating things into working with the current branch system really irks me :P
05:36:48 <Zaba> greensnark, not sure what it is, though
05:37:56 <greensnark> Zaba: It wouldn't be exactly the "current" branch system, we'd have a branch.lua where you could add custom branches from Lua
05:38:11 <kilobyte> major <=29 is .chr, major 30 is -2002.cs without --print-charset, major 31 is -2002.cs with --print-charset, major 32 is .cs
05:39:12 <kilobyte> greensnark: one problem: what if the order changes?  Even having the filesystem sort lua files in a different order could trigger that.  Same for adding a portal, etc.
05:39:46 <Zaba> ziggurat.lua would require() branch.lua?
05:40:00 <greensnark> kilobyte: Yes, I'd thought of that. We'd need a name->id mapping for each chunk that saves level_ids
05:40:09 <Zaba> or are you referring to something else.
05:40:12 <Zaba> oh wait, nevermind :P
05:40:28 <greensnark> And I'm proposing that all custom branches be defined in branch.lua, so the only reordering would be if someone stuck a new branch in the middle
05:40:32 <Zaba> just save level references using level_id::describe
05:40:39 <greensnark> But I do think it's important to handle reordering cleanly
05:40:42 <Zaba> it can be adequately parsed back into level_ids, and what not
05:40:54 <greensnark> Zaba: Or we could do that, yes, it's not as if it's much bigger
05:40:55 <kilobyte> Zaba: or that!
05:41:08 <Zaba> that's what's done with save chunks now
05:41:28 <Zaba> that means reordering would at least not break saves directly
05:41:40 <greensnark> Harold is so much nicer with rF+ :D
05:43:13 <Napkin> omg, wtf:
05:43:13 <Napkin> > mv Napkin*.cs sources/Napkin.cs
05:43:13 <Napkin> mv: target `sources/Napkin.cs' is not a directory
05:43:38 <Napkin> need to take care to match only one...
05:43:54 <due> oops :D
05:44:20 <Napkin> berkley tools would have done that and killed your files ;)
05:45:29 <greensnark> I, uh, once did a cp *.foo and forgot the target directory
05:45:45 <greensnark> I have been everlastingly cautious with wildcards since then
05:45:48 <Napkin> and you told them?!
05:46:01 <Napkin> now you see what happens ;>
05:46:07 <Napkin> *happened
05:46:26 <greensnark> I also hated all the old unixes since then :P
05:46:44 <st_> Heh so slimifying something over deep water causes it to turn neutral but doesn't turn it to a slime. D _ bone dragon (fellow slime)
05:47:30 <greensnark> Isn't that an oold bug that never got reported or fixed
05:47:30 <due> "oops"
05:47:44 <greensnark> syllogism mentioned that in Sprint
05:50:45 * greensnark <3 setting bushes on fire.
05:51:03 <greensnark> Oooh, pretty steam blasts <3
05:52:23 <kilobyte> BTW, I quite don't get why burning bushes in ZotDef can aim and spit accurately at a distant foe
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05:53:08 <kilobyte> passively burning attackers or spreading flame clouds would make sense
05:53:21 <due> adjust the flavour?
05:53:50 <kilobyte> but accurate projectiles, not really.  Oklobs are fine, some other invented plants too, but not something that exists in RL.
05:54:04 <due> Well, burning bushes don't really exist in RL.
05:54:06 <due> In mythology, yeah.
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05:55:37 <Napkin> anyone got a better idea to match the savegames in shell than this? ${CHAR_NAME}{-${USER_ID},}.cs
05:58:45 <kilobyte> as long as you never have meow.cs and meow-2002.cs in one dir, all should work
05:59:00 <kilobyte> and you never do transfer saves to incompatible majors
05:59:15 <Napkin> the problem is matching
05:59:52 <kilobyte> due: burning bushes do occur -- some species generate a lot of oils that can catch on fire, without damaging the bush badly
05:59:52 <Napkin> need to match meow.cs and meow-2002.cs but not meower.cs
06:00:04 <Napkin> the other stuff is controlled
06:00:24 <kilobyte> {-2002,} would work
06:04:15 <kilobyte> would piranha plants be too much?
06:09:29 <Keskitalo> Not if they grow from green pipes.
06:09:33 <Keskitalo> And breathe fire!
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06:11:51 <TGWi> has it been 300 years already?
06:12:38 <TGWi> if you allow this you have to bring back surfboards (which are older than 300 years anyway)
06:13:52 <Keskitalo> TGWi: I must admit I did not know that at a time. However, Norris as a surfer was clearly based on a trope of surfers less than 300 years old.
06:14:12 <TGWi> he's ahead of his time
06:14:21 <TGWi> (which is 300 years ago)
06:14:27 <kilobyte> Keskitalo: yeah, I'm specifically looking for the breathe fire ability
06:15:07 <Keskitalo> Modern vampires aren't 300 years old, are they? (of course 300-year old rule is not applied to existing stuff, is it)
06:15:25 <bhaak> it is, when dpeg wants it to be removed :)
06:15:34 <Keskitalo> hehe
06:15:38 <Napkin> grrrr.. going crazy! maybe I should rewrite that whole shit in perl...
06:15:41 <TGWi> modern vampires sparkle
06:15:49 <TGWi> the current sort are safe to keep
06:15:58 <Keskitalo> TGWi: no that's postmodern
06:16:07 <Keskitalo> or maybe post-postmodern
06:16:25 <TGWi> space vampires
06:16:41 <Keskitalo> lesbian vampires from outer space!
06:17:12 <Keskitalo> kilobyte: Maybe they could also retreat to a green "shell" every other turn
06:21:14 <Adeon> dracula 3000
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06:24:14 <greensnark> Aren't porcupines supposed to give me passive damage when I attack?
06:24:26 <greensnark> Or is that only for unarmed attacks
06:24:32 <due> greensnark: not yet coded
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06:30:46 <syllogism> @?? porcupine
06:30:47 <Gretell> porcupine (02r) | Speed: 12 | HD: 2 | Health: 6-18 | AC/EV: 2/12 | Damage: 7 | Res: 06magic(8) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 32.
06:33:16 <Napkin> dns of CDO may be down for a short while in the new few days, moving it to another provider
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06:36:27 <kilobyte> Napkin: there is exactly one .chr trunk game even touched since early september: Moriasc who loaded it on Jan 2
06:37:28 <kilobyte> heh, the version says "0.7.0-rc3"
06:38:41 <kilobyte> yeah, it is a valid 0.7 game.  Just move it there and we're set :p
06:38:53 <greensnark> <3 sheep fire
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06:39:34 <kilobyte> greensnark: currently only sticky flame triggers it.  What else should?
06:39:51 <greensnark> I think sticky flame is enough :)
06:41:52 <greensnark> It was hilarious, a flock of like 9 sheep bleating and fleeing in different directions after I flamed the leader :P
06:43:03 <kilobyte> too bad scared monsters just "turn to flee" instead of querying the db
06:43:22 <kilobyte> which is an easy fix
06:44:40 <greensnark> Stupid boring beetle spam interrupting my rest :P
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06:45:54 <greensnark> And yarr, even when I expected the dire elephants I barely made it out alive :P
06:46:00 * greensnark blames due.
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06:55:14 <dpeg> darkgod visited the tavern :)
06:55:14 <Henzell> dpeg: You have 4 messages. Use !messages to read them.
06:55:33 <dpeg> !messages
06:55:34 <Henzell> (1/4) bhaak said (1d 4h 16m 56s ago): we're working on it
06:55:37 <dpeg> !messages
06:55:37 <Henzell> (1/3) bhaak said (1d 4h 15m 32s ago): "I used to play Nethack in tiles mode, but not lately, because UnNethack doesn't support tiles, so I got used to ASCII again..."  so, crawl is better than NAO and UnNetHack is better than crawl?
06:55:59 <dpeg> !messages
06:55:59 <Henzell> (1/2) greensnark said (19h 42m 10s ago): I've moved some 0.8 items to "Deferred". Can you take a look and see if that looks ok
06:56:03 <greensnark> !tell Keskitalo What happened to the summon hydra spell?
06:56:04 <Henzell> greensnark: OK, I'll let Keskitalo know.
06:56:07 <greensnark> Heyy dpeg
06:56:07 <dpeg> greensnark: these look brilliant
06:56:10 <dpeg> !messages
06:56:10 <Henzell> (1/1) greensnark said (19h 42m 2s ago): (hint) It'd be nice if you updated the page too :P
06:56:21 * dpeg hides
06:56:28 -!- dpeg is now known as qbeg
06:56:37 <Adeon> damn, where'd he go
06:56:45 <greensnark> I think he's visiting the qwarves
06:56:46 <Adeon> I was just about to say something witty
06:56:56 <Blackflare> hm that seems lazy, the latest trunk "Fixes tiles" in that it disables the command bar :p
06:57:26 <Blackflare> I didnt like it anyway though
06:58:06 <greensnark> Blackflare: It could have been left as is until the author found the time to fix it
06:58:17 <greensnark> It's not like Crawl's anyone's day job here
06:58:18 <Blackflare> I know, I wasnt really complaining
06:58:22 <Blackflare> sorry :3
06:59:01 <Blackflare> Im actually excited to try out the new enchanting
07:00:34 <greensnark> qbeg: Trample is a pretty neat effect. I obviously haven't been playing Crawl enough :P
07:01:17 <Keskitalo> greensnark: If you'd like to commit the patches, go ahead - they're on my todo list but that advances slowly due to certain circumstances :)
07:01:17 <Henzell> Keskitalo: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it.
07:01:22 <Blackflare> it is. I keep meaning to try out a dragon form character to turn the tables on those damn elephants
07:02:27 <qbeg> greensnark: yeah, trample is great.
07:02:41 <Keskitalo> +1 trample awesomity
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07:02:46 <Keskitalo> hi qbeg
07:02:53 <qbeg> Hi Keskitalo! Got a name yet? :)
07:03:04 <Keskitalo> oh yes but not telling yet :)
07:03:17 <qbeg> There are plans to allow ogres/trolls to trample some monsters...
07:03:38 <greensnark> Maybe leave it to ogres alone?
07:03:38 <qbeg> Keskitalo: the name-giving parties are a fairly recent invention, aren't they? Or is it a Finnish tradition?
07:03:47 <greensnark> Trolls hardly need the boost
07:03:48 <Keskitalo> different kind of trampling mind you :)
07:03:51 <qbeg> greensnark: matter of size
07:04:00 <greensnark> Yes, but trolls don't need the boost
07:04:00 <qbeg> would be against rats
07:04:05 <greensnark> Oh, ok
07:04:08 <qbeg> greensnark: but consistency
07:04:17 <qbeg> don't worry, it's more for the giggles
07:05:11 <Keskitalo> that's more about monsters stomping through your hordes of spammals
07:05:13 <Napkin> geez, finished
07:05:43 <Celentes> probably a thousand times asked questions by now, but any intentions on buffing charms/hexes and giving more spells to those? enchantments didn't have much use after haste before split even :P
07:05:56 <Napkin> kilobyte: coffee first, then I'll try an update
07:06:57 <Keskitalo> qbeg: To answer your question, (trying to parse this in English..) we are having a name-giving party and holding to the name until then, instead of a Christian type of baptizing and announcing the name at the same time (did this make  sense?)
07:07:14 <Keskitalo> this might be a lutheran thing?
07:08:47 -!- qbeg is now known as dpeg
07:09:06 <Keskitalo> greensnark: https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:trampling -- the other trampling if you like to check it out
07:09:09 <dpeg> Keskitalo: is there an actual ritual in a church for your daughter?
07:09:50 <Keskitalo> dpeg: No, we're not members of the/a church
07:09:53 * dpeg was already calling his buddies Yredelemnul and Kikubaaqudgha for baptising services.
07:10:08 <Keskitalo> oh, that sounds nice :>
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07:12:48 <Keskitalo> dpeg: But lutheran tradition is so ingrown in Finnish culture, that probably comes from there even though we're not lutherans (or christians) ourselves
07:13:18 <kilobyte> Celentes: high level Hexes, certainly
07:13:31 <Keskitalo> Elyvilon and Fedhas might be cool for house gods
07:13:42 <Keskitalo> oh and Cheibriados!
07:14:04 <Blackflare> were DS apts changed?
07:14:11 <Blackflare> I dont remember conjurations being 0
07:14:11 <greensnark> Makhleb is the cuddliest god
07:14:19 <greensnark> Short of Xom
07:14:22 <greensnark> Xom!
07:16:15 <kilobyte> Celentes: Charms are good enough... so while people like OG17 suggest moving meek small underpowered spells like Tornado to Chrm/Air, I'd not do that
07:16:19 <kilobyte> <3 Makhleb
07:16:25 <dpeg> Trog is my god
07:16:30 <kilobyte> Xom suffers from being currently worse than GOD_NO_GOD
07:16:32 <dpeg> cannot go wrong with burning books
07:16:40 <dpeg> kilobyte: is that really true?
07:16:49 <greensnark> Current Xom is a bit of a powerful hindrance, yes
07:17:04 <dpeg> I've read positive reports...
07:17:11 <dpeg> greensnark: was old Xom different
07:17:14 <greensnark> It helps if you're strong enough to not need help
07:17:25 <greensnark> dpeg: Yes, old Xom was a lot more consistently helpful
07:17:28 <kilobyte> rewards like xom armour or runaway mutations are gone, the hindrances are still there
07:17:42 <dpeg> Xom armour = mutations?
07:17:56 <greensnark> dpeg: Xom used to give you 3000 stacking scales mutations :)
07:18:00 <dpeg> But Xom will do something in battles... I've seen this.
07:18:14 <dpeg> greensnark: yes, and I hope we agree that wasn't a desirable situation :)
07:18:18 <greensnark> dpeg: Yes, but he'll also keep messing with you when you try to rest now
07:18:26 <kilobyte> so you either get hit (including very often drains, animated weapons, hostiles, weapon swaps, etc) or get unreliable help that steals your xp
07:18:28 <greensnark> And the help he provides doesn't compensate for that
07:18:45 <ortoslon> i agree
07:18:53 <kilobyte> allies that don't come when you really need them are no good
07:18:56 <ortoslon> i think the nicest thing about new xom are gold gifts
07:19:07 <dpeg> I like the idea of the current Xom... it is easy to tweak the numbers (more support, less bad effect; more gifts etc:)
07:19:18 <greensnark> I think he's still a fun god, but unfortunately, he's no longer appropriate for the characters I play
07:19:19 <dpeg> just need some text of feedback and we (Johanna and I) might have a go
07:19:33 <greensnark> I like to play marginal characters, and he's pretty much a death knell for those
07:19:38 <greensnark> He's okay for the strong characters
07:19:41 <dpeg> kilobyte: why do they come when you don'T need them?
07:19:56 <dpeg> I've seen Xom send stuff in urgent situations
07:20:06 <greensnark> pre-DCSS and 0.1/0.2 Xom you could pick even with weak character types
07:20:21 <greensnark> Like my ogres :D
07:20:26 <greensnark> !lg . win xom s=char
07:20:26 <Sequell> 2 games for greensnark (win xom): 1x OgFi, 1x SEDK
07:20:27 <dpeg> ok, so Xom should be easier
07:20:45 <ortoslon> yep
07:20:50 <kilobyte> oops sorry, work
07:21:02 <dpeg> I just want to get specific ideas out of this, and some of what I read doesn't fit intentions and testing.
07:21:20 <greensnark> I'd have to play Xom again for specifics
07:21:26 <greensnark> So right after I finish this MuFE :)
07:21:30 <st_> elliptic has a Xom game right now, could ask for him for some input
07:21:32 <greensnark> I gave up on Xom circa 0.5
07:21:44 <st_> @whereis hyperbolic
07:21:44 <Gretell> hyperbolic the Eclecticist (L25 HEHe), a worshipper of Xom, saved on Lair:2 on 2011-01-10 after 88268 turns.
07:21:45 <greensnark> !lg . xom x=v
07:21:45 <Sequell> 41. [v=0.6.0-rc4-] greensnark the Black Belt (L21 HaMo), worshipper of Xom, quit the game on Elf:5 on 2010-06-12, with 234778 points after 85600 turns and 7:25:16.
07:21:53 <Keskitalo> dpeg: I'll try to send usability testing mail to crd later today
07:23:06 <ortoslon> dpeg: one specific: xom likes to surround low-level characters with demons when they're resting
07:23:23 <ortoslon> usually it's like this: if you have tele scrolls, you use one. if you don't, you die.
07:25:38 <greensnark> Aiee, I had to flee kilobyte's tree vault :P
07:25:55 <Keskitalo> @whwereis greensnark
07:26:01 <Keskitalo> @whereis greensnark
07:26:01 <Gretell> greensnark the Arsonist (L14 MuFE), a worshipper of Vehumet, is currently on Lair:4 after 34136 turns.
07:26:10 <greensnark> Aren't those trees combustible :P
07:26:12 <Keskitalo> I had it on L:1 3
07:26:17 <Keskitalo> <3 i mean
07:26:22 <Keskitalo> greensnark: oh yesss
07:26:34 <greensnark> Keskitalo: I wasn't able to burn them with bolt of fire :(
07:26:43 <greensnark> And then the druid got out and it was all "Run awaaaay"
07:27:02 <greensnark> For a while there it was raining wolves and that druid puts out some mean damage ;P
07:27:37 <greensnark> Keskitalo: Actually Lair:5, I had to run off upstairs to let things cool down :P
07:27:45 <dpeg> !tell elliptic There's talk here about buffing Xom. Feedback welcome!
07:27:45 <Henzell> dpeg: OK, I'll let elliptic know.
07:29:07 <greensnark> Oh, haha, sticky flame nuked the druid after all <3
07:29:24 <greensnark> Because his robe and staff are neatly laid out at the entrance of the vault :P
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07:31:43 <dpeg> greensnark: SF is useless now, if we can believe some players :)
07:31:50 <syllogism> Almost all the good enchantments are now Charms and the ones no one used Hexes :(
07:31:55 <st_> I didn't say that!
07:31:58 <st_> Geez
07:32:48 <greensnark> st_: Aha, so you're some players. :P
07:33:29 <dpeg> kilobyte made the Ench split exactly so that this didn't happen!?
07:33:51 <greensnark> dpeg: There's a ghost in an extremely hilarious place on my Snake:1 :D
07:34:16 <syllogism> well if you are a stabber you will need hexes for confuse/hibernation
07:34:24 <syllogism> and silence is both hexes/charms
07:34:35 <syllogism> and I guess stabbers will also find Invisibility necessary
07:34:41 <syllogism> but non-stabbers will stick with charms
07:34:44 <dpeg> greensnark: between two oklobs?
07:34:52 <greensnark> dpeg: Nope!
07:35:04 <greensnark> I'm on a giant glass cross level surrounded by water
07:35:13 <dpeg> watching :)
07:35:16 <greensnark> And the ghost is in the outer darkness beyond the walls :P
07:35:20 <dpeg> yes
07:36:36 <kilobyte> syllogism: all the stabber ones are Hexes, and most those mad enchanters during the tourney used that
07:37:37 <kilobyte> heh, irssi doesn't show it well you haven't scrolled to the bottom :p
07:37:50 <dpeg> greensnark: I saw that
07:37:55 <greensnark> :P
07:38:13 <syllogism> it would be nice if both charms and hexes had some high level (8/9) spell
07:38:32 <kilobyte> doeg: back to Xom, you don't get help when the shit hits the fan, you get it if a Xom tick hits and you happen to have big enemies around
07:38:33 <syllogism> I guess there's death's door
07:38:44 <kilobyte> big enemies usually means lots of xp rather than trouble
07:39:10 <kilobyte> greensnark: <3 druid
07:39:10 <dpeg> kilobyte: how else to measure trouble than by tension?
07:39:16 <joosa> I think shopping messages should be logged normally
07:39:36 <joosa> now there's just the messages about entering and leaving a shop
07:39:41 <kilobyte> dpeg: not sure, but Xom ticks being rare is the primary problem I think
07:40:00 <kilobyte> dpeg: he first decides "should I act?" and only then looking what's going on
07:40:13 <greensnark> dpeg: Overall 0.8 feels like a big improvement already :)
07:40:19 <greensnark> dpeg: When's the release!
07:40:27 <syllogism> could also buff some of the hexes
07:40:29 <dpeg> March!
07:40:42 <dpeg> syllogism: all of these will come, but the split had to happen along some line first.
07:40:49 <greensnark> The early dungeon feels a lot more interesting in 0.8
07:40:52 <dpeg> joosa: FR please
07:40:52 <kilobyte> greensnark: there's no need to hurry, especially that stability really suffers
07:41:10 <joosa> dpeg: I will! sometime.
07:41:12 <dpeg> kilobyte: ok, the ticks thing I understand
07:41:17 <dpeg> will talk to jpeg about it
07:41:41 <greensnark> Who created this oklob shooting gallery vault :P
07:41:48 <dpeg> I guess Xom also acting at high tension, with effects weighted (from mood towards) good would help a lot
07:41:55 <dpeg> greensnark: eek, who would that be?
07:42:04 * dpeg curses insane people.
07:42:27 <kilobyte> you mean, all the devs?
07:42:31 <dpeg> :)
07:42:40 <greensnark> dpeg: I had to invis-cheese the oklobs :P
07:42:58 <dpeg> greensnark: gotta give 'em SInv
07:43:04 <dpeg> I liked how people on SA complained about oklob positioning on Lair, and then the crowd calmly proceeded to discuss the tactics
07:43:25 <greensnark> The jungle book vault was nice
07:43:38 <greensnark> I knew all about the dire elephants and still almost got stomped :P
07:43:42 <dpeg> a soft spot for Kipling?
07:44:04 <dpeg> Didn't he write a book about India? "Passage to India" or so?
07:44:26 <Napkin> anything I should wait for before doing an update on CDO?
07:44:30 <greensnark> !tell due I saw a lovely labyrinth in Snake and I was going to it with a song on my lips and aargh your goddamn portal mimics!!11!
07:44:30 <Henzell> greensnark: OK, I'll let due know.
07:44:48 <greensnark> dpeg: I think that was E.M.Forster
07:46:39 <syllogism> haste should be hexes/charms since you can also use it on monsters :P
07:49:17 <kilobyte> syllogism: charms are "enhancing auras", not "stuff you cast on self"
07:49:43 <syllogism> I see
07:49:46 <kilobyte> greensnark: <3 lab mimic
07:50:04 <kilobyte> although giving no message is a 100% giveaway
07:50:57 <kilobyte> syllogism: it'd be nice to have a big-ass Hex
07:50:57 <ortoslon> ohh, a new bug. i tried to shoot an unidentified dart of flame at a green crystal wall and got a "beam may hit you" warning
07:51:06 <syllogism> yes
07:51:46 <kilobyte> Possess Demon could be a level 8/9 one, but it might be tricky to code
07:51:57 <kilobyte> so other ideas are really welcome
07:52:16 <ortoslon> the current best hex isn't even in Hexes. i'm talking about Alistair's :)
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07:55:38 <greensnark> Should just call him Smite Roka and be done with it :P
07:56:56 <syllogism> @?? aizul
07:56:57 <Gretell> Aizul (13S) | Speed: 15 | HD: 14 | Health: 142 | AC/EV: 8/18 | Damage: 25 | Flags: spellcaster, see invisible | Res: 06magic(112), 03poison | Chunks: 06mutagenic | XP: 2602 | Sp: b.venom (3d18), sleep, poison arrow (3d21), blink other.
08:00:13 <Ashenzari> beam warning gives away dart's ego (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3191) by ortoslon
08:02:01 <ortoslon> btw why are poisoned projectiles immediately visible as poisonous but fire and frost require id?
08:02:56 <greensnark> Greater naga really need help
08:04:33 <greensnark> Hahahaha
08:04:36 <Napkin> Could not figure out version tags. Installation cancelled.
08:04:47 <greensnark> Imp spam + sticky flame > Aizul
08:05:00 <greensnark> Call imp really is quite cheap now :P
08:05:05 <greensnark> Literally and metaphorically :P
08:06:01 <Napkin> arg, guys
08:06:10 <Napkin> how do I figure out the minor version now?
08:06:21 <kilobyte> Napkin: uhm, low-level save file format has changed, but two updates went ok since then
08:06:51 <Napkin> grep "TAG_MINOR_VERSION[[:space:]]*=" crawl-ref/source/tag-version.h <- no longer working to figure out the minor version
08:07:00 <Napkin> TAG_MINOR_VERSION = NUM_TAG_MINORS - 1
08:07:06 <kilobyte> ...
08:07:10 <kilobyte> oy vey
08:07:46 <Napkin> > grep NUM_TAG_MINORS crawl-ref/source/tag-version.h
08:07:46 <Napkin> NUM_TAG_MINORS,
08:07:46 <Napkin> TAG_MINOR_VERSION = NUM_TAG_MINORS - 1
08:07:48 <Napkin> help?
08:09:39 <Napkin> should I start ignoring it?
08:09:40 <kilobyte> I guess you don't like f283390aa6eef2c5750c6f1bae2ea12617cc76c3 then.
08:10:10 <kilobyte> if you want to get it from the outside, parsing might be tricky, so we may revert to updating that by hand
08:10:51 <Napkin> well, if it's worth it, keep it and i'll start to ignore the minor version
08:11:09 <Napkin> will need some more hacking though.. grr.. wuff!
08:11:14 <kilobyte> just a convenience, nothing important
08:11:28 <kilobyte> revert time then, right?
08:11:44 <Napkin> i am all up for conveniences
08:11:56 <Napkin> let me see, how much change it'll require here
08:12:19 <kilobyte> this is a _dis_convenience for you
08:12:34 <kilobyte> and we may abuse you only to a certain degree
08:12:44 <Napkin> yes, but.. CDO doesn't really need the minor version.. does it?
08:13:20 <Napkin> that was a mistake/misunderstanding on my side at the beginning when I wrote the scripts
08:13:57 <kilobyte> ah ok then
08:14:05 <Napkin> at least, let me check
08:14:19 <Napkin> could be a bit problematic because of the sqlite db
08:14:31 <kilobyte> because increasing a number every time we add a new minor tag is easy... it's always in the very next line after the new tag
08:15:06 <Napkin> how does crawl compiler compute it?
08:15:24 <Napkin> s/crawl/
08:15:29 <Napkin> counting the enum?
08:15:53 <Napkin> (please put it simple, no C nor C++ knowledge ;) )
08:21:38 <kilobyte> yeah, all enum entries get sequential values
08:22:44 <kilobyte> I see you already wasted too much time on this trite... revertion?
08:23:04 <Napkin> nah, it's not that
08:23:20 <Napkin> but seeing things that can use some optimizations while checking ;)
08:24:37 <Blackflare> oh yeah, no one answered me earlier but, did DS get some apt adjustments? things seem a little different
08:30:48 <Gretell> Unstable branch on CDO updated to: 0.8.0-a0-4474-gbf61485 (32.0)
08:30:57 <Napkin> well, i cheated for now ;)
08:33:17 <kilobyte> Blackflare: not quite in a while
08:33:25 <CIA-113> 03kilobyte * rd032bde60135 10/crawl-ref/source/religion.cc: No instant retribution from Beogh.
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08:33:26 <CIA-113> 03kilobyte * r5354b819a15b 10/crawl-ref/source/ (player-equip.cc spl-cast.cc spl-cast.h): Auto-id staves if you can cast spells at all.
08:33:27 <CIA-113> 03kilobyte * recd012bf404e 10/crawl-ref/source/ (dat/database/monflee.txt database.cc mon-behv.cc): Let monsters say something when they flee away. A silent sheep fire is no fun.
08:33:41 <Napkin> Couldn't find selected Sprint map ''.
08:33:42 <Blackflare> weird, I would swear they had -1 conjurations before this build
08:33:53 <Napkin> when trying to continue a sprint game :-O
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08:35:01 <Blackflare> nope they didnt, I guess im just loony
08:35:02 <st_> are there some cool new Hex titles then?
08:35:16 <Blackflare> must have been the extra enchantment apt that threw me off
08:35:19 <kilobyte> a month ago they had 0 too
08:35:42 <kilobyte> st_: no tiles yet
08:35:44 <Napkin> kilobyte?
08:35:47 <Napkin> Sprint seems broken
08:35:59 <Napkin> can't load a game, I get: Couldn't find selected Sprint map ''.
08:36:12 <Napkin> I'm starting it like this: /bin/crawl-svn-bf61485 -name Napkin -sprint -rc /dgldir/rcfiles/crawl-svn/Napkin.rc -macro /dgldir/rcfiles/crawl-svn/Napkin.macro -morgue /crawl-svn/morgue/Napkin
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08:36:24 <Napkin> has the -sprint parameter changed maybe?
08:37:01 <kilobyte> I see the problem, lemme look around
08:37:13 <kilobyte> no one touched -sprint recently
08:37:38 <kilobyte> ZotDef works.
08:37:40 <Napkin> it works when no save exists
08:37:43 <syllogism> does ashenzari wrath currently work? I know you implemented the effect, but not sure if I can tell the difference
08:37:49 <Napkin> gives me a selection of maps
08:37:56 <Napkin> but continuing doesn't work
08:38:03 <Napkin> yes, zotdef and normal game works
08:38:05 <kilobyte> so does tutorial
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08:38:51 <kilobyte> syllogism: only one effect is implemented yet, but it should be operative
08:39:01 <kilobyte> ^O tells if you're under penance
08:39:09 <kilobyte> jpeg_!
08:39:20 <Napkin> Hi jpeg!
08:39:26 <jpeg_> Napkin: that's creepy, I'm touching the tutorial map tags (locally) and you get map finding errors!
08:39:29 <jpeg_> hi guys!
08:39:41 <Napkin> :))
08:39:51 <jpeg_> still "sprint", as far as I can see
08:40:06 <Napkin> only sprint continuing a game doesn't work, it seems
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08:40:59 <jpeg_> ah, so "_sprint_map" isn't stored properly
08:41:04 <jpeg_> I was *just* wondering about that
08:41:10 <syllogism> kilobyte: the effect is quite subtle then
08:41:13 <Napkin> gotta work a bit here - beep me when I should update
08:41:37 <syllogism> was hoping monsters would basically always find you while under ash penance
08:44:08 <galehar> jpeg_: We keep having reports of the command tab slowing down the game. Any idea what might be causing this?
08:44:33 <jpeg_> galehar: none, the command tab is really quite simple
08:44:53 <ortoslon> memory is leaking throw the question marks :P
08:44:57 <ortoslon> *through
08:45:06 <jpeg_> galehar: all it gets are a list of commands that, when clicked, get sent to the main command routine
08:45:19 <jpeg_> but it's not about clicking at all
08:45:50 <jpeg_> I removed some checks for i_feel_safe() etc. that could easily hog memory if executed every turn
08:45:57 <jpeg_> but that was a few versions ago
08:46:34 <jpeg_> still haven't worked out how to check for memory leaks on Windows
08:46:35 <galehar> jpeg_: yes, I saw that. But it didn't help.
08:46:51 <kilobyte> sprint saves the level as "D" but tries to load it as "D:1"
08:47:37 <galehar> also, I liked the greyed you command when unsafe. Once we fix the bug, we should put it back. Maybe with just a single check.
08:48:30 <jpeg_> galehar: how? it needs to be rechecked every time you or the monsters move
08:49:14 <jpeg_> the triple check was over the top, I admit :P
08:50:24 <galehar> yes, I mean just once per turn
08:51:07 <jpeg_> I haven't actually had a look at it since it got detached
08:51:34 <jpeg_> do you know if it's enough to just have the tab open, or do the players need to do something with it?
08:51:50 <Keskitalo> greensnark: I agree Call Imp is too cheap now, but Spammals is still better :P
08:52:46 <jpeg_> Keskitalo!
08:55:05 <Keskitalo> Hi jpeg_ !
08:55:25 <Keskitalo> jpeg_: I'm writing mail on crd about the usability testing for this year later today
08:55:31 <galehar> jpeg_: I've experienced it myself. I didn't do anything with it, just had it opened.
08:55:40 <jpeg_> Keskitalo: Do you have any opinion on the tutorial split I suggested?
08:56:01 <Keskitalo> jpeg_: Sounds awesome, didn't I say that already? Probably not to you :)
08:56:20 <jpeg_> Keskitalo: no, all you did was correct 0.6 to 0.7 :P
08:56:25 <Keskitalo> ah :)
08:56:29 <jpeg_> :)
08:56:34 <CIA-113> 03greensnark * raa2e8439057c 10/crawl-ref/source/cloud.cc: Don't spam messages at players standing in Swamp mist.
08:56:56 <Keskitalo> jpeg_: The idea was floating around in the UP team too, and one nice thing about "episodising" tutorials is that we can also add advanced topics..
08:57:15 <Keskitalo> jpeg_: Having the final tutorial episode be a trial of sorts is an excellent idea
08:57:25 <jpeg_> galehar: hmm... but I simply copied it from the skill tabs which I copied from the command tabs
08:57:37 <jpeg_> galehar: something must have gotten lost in the transitions
08:57:44 <dpeg> high dev density in ##crawl-dev right now
08:57:49 <dpeg> !seen zaba
08:57:50 <Henzell> I last saw Zaba at Mon Jan 10 11:41:28 2011 UTC (3h 16m 21s ago) saying that means reordering would at least not break saves directly on ##crawl-dev.
08:58:04 <jpeg_> Keskitalo: I particularly like the idea of actually having to collect the runes and orb
08:58:19 <dpeg> yes!
08:58:28 <jpeg_> Keskitalo: though players will probably grumble at the idea that there are 3 more runes they can't get in normal games :D
08:58:39 <dpeg> That's another manual paragraph nobody reads anyway.
08:59:04 <jpeg_> dpeg: I saw you were discussing Xom
08:59:29 <dpeg> jpeg_: yes. He's harder than before and there are calls to make Xom better.
08:59:53 <jpeg_> dpeg: I've considered making low hp count into tension
08:59:59 <dpeg> it's not???
09:00:12 <dpeg> The main point, afaiu, is that Xom can only react at certain ticks. Those ticks might not be when action is desired.
09:00:27 <jpeg_> dpeg: but I'm worried it'll produce degenerate play where players hit themselves to remain 1 hp below the maximum
09:00:47 <jpeg_> yes, the ticks are problematic
09:01:18 <jpeg_> the trouble is that I really don't want to check the tension all the time
09:01:32 <jpeg_> I'm introducing enough lagging issues as it is... :P
09:03:44 <Keskitalo> Yes, runes/orb mechanic is a great topic
09:04:42 <jpeg_> I'm currently working on setting up the code structure for splitting the tutorial into different files, similar to Sprint but multi-leveled
09:04:52 <dpeg> jpeg_: the formula could be better than rewarding 1 hp below max.
09:04:57 <OG17> kilobyte, I said conj/air for tornado, or conj/charm/air
09:05:05 <OG17> charm/air would bury chain lit
09:06:03 <jpeg_> dpeg: I see it already scales with hp
09:06:11 <dpeg> ok
09:06:41 <jpeg_> tension *= 2 * max_hp
09:06:50 <dpeg> max?
09:06:53 <jpeg_> tension /= max_hp + hp
09:06:57 <dpeg> ah
09:07:11 <dpeg> jpeg_: we can probably also do better than track tension every turn. There could be a shabbily computed pre-tension, and we only use tension is pretension indicates to do so
09:07:54 <jpeg_> looping through all available monsters probably already is the biggest part
09:08:20 <jpeg_> in fact, we return early if there are no monsters around
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09:09:03 <jpeg_> on the other hand, don't we already need to do that to compute the monster list and stuff?
09:09:23 <dpeg> jpeg_: how are the monsters given?
09:09:29 <dpeg> jpeg_: was wondering about that
09:10:06 <jpeg_> it... oh, uses a radius iterator
09:10:23 <jpeg_> I thought we'd switched to looping over monsters
09:10:29 <jpeg_> or was that the other way around?
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09:12:59 <dpeg> at the very list, couldn't the monster list maintain an actual code list of monsters?
09:13:13 <dpeg> list=least
09:13:23 <dpeg> so that tension does not have to use radius_iterator as well?
09:14:17 <jpeg_> hmm... recite uses a radius iterator but several aoe damage spells use the monster iterator
09:17:15 <dpeg> I guess it takes a while until the proper iterators are used...
09:18:22 <jpeg_> most of the time, the monster iterator is probably more efficient
09:18:30 <dpeg> one would think so, yes
09:19:55 <jpeg_> how many squares does los contain again?
09:20:02 <Napkin> CDO is broken!
09:20:09 <Napkin> help :)
09:20:11 <greensnark> Napkin: What's up?
09:20:21 <Napkin> sprint games don't load ;)
09:20:26 <greensnark> Oh
09:20:31 <Napkin> oh.. and.. develz.org domain is finally mine :D
09:20:39 <Napkin> one worry less \o/
09:20:41 <CIA-113> 03greensnark * r52227691bfd5 10/crawl-ref/source/macro.cc: More feedback at the macro prompt: make it clear exactly what macro/keymap was defined, deleted, etc. Never leave the prompt dangling without an acknowledgement.
09:20:56 <Napkin> kilobyte> sprint saves the level as "D" but tries to load it as "D:1"
09:20:57 <jpeg_> Napkin: \o/
09:21:23 <greensnark> Oh, that sounds like the dungeon branch's depth is not set correctly before loading Sprint saves
09:21:24 <Napkin> and now my address is in the whois.. lalalaaaaa :-|
09:21:35 <greensnark> !send Napkin 10 stalkers stalking
09:21:35 <Henzell> Sending 10 stalkers stalking to Napkin.
09:21:40 <jpeg_> Napkin: shhh!
09:21:47 <Napkin> noooooo!
09:22:13 <Napkin> you should rather send someone to help me empty the wine cellar ;>
09:22:13 <dpeg> jpeg_: I forgot... something around 200?
09:22:39 <jpeg_> dpeg: yeah, and how often do you actually have that many monsters on the level?
09:23:04 <dpeg> yes, that's why radius_iterator seems a lot more expensive than monster_iterator
09:23:40 <jpeg_> dpeg: it has its uses, e.g. for ignite poison which also affects area and items
09:24:12 <jpeg_> dpeg: otherwise... well, some smart person implemented the monster iterator!
09:24:23 <jpeg_> dpeg: not going to touch Xom yet, though
09:24:43 <jpeg_> dpeg: the tutorial is higher on my list, though I may need help with designing interesting maps
09:25:39 <dpeg> tell us when!
09:25:50 <dpeg> Don't think that xom is urgent, just heard of the complaints today.
09:28:01 <Keskitalo> felirx: Around?
09:29:00 <Keskitalo> I think I'm done with the mail, I'll just read it through ...
09:29:13 <Zaba> hm?
09:30:34 <Zaba> oh, sprint save borkage
09:30:51 <Zaba> remove sprint!
09:30:54 * Zaba hides
09:31:39 <jpeg_> the new tutorial will be the new sprint
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09:35:12 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
09:35:14 <CIA-113> 03greensnark * r64653ce2f103 10/crawl-ref/source/files.cc: Fix Sprint saves not loading (Napkin).
09:35:45 <felirx> mm?
09:36:14 <greensnark> Napking: All yours!
09:36:17 <greensnark> Er, Napkin
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09:39:41 <CIA-113> 03greensnark * r52beb4e37e29 10/crawl-ref/source/travel.cc: ^G prompt acknowledges cancel with MSG_OK instead of leaving the prompt dangling.
09:40:43 <jpeg_> Haha!
09:40:50 <jpeg_> "A Plog comes into view!"
09:41:00 <jpeg_> The Plog sneers, "Fly, thou mooning tardy-gaited bum-bailey!"
09:41:07 <jpeg_> The Plog gestures at you.
09:41:13 <jpeg_> Ouch! That really hurt!
09:41:23 <jpeg_> ^--- that's dpeg in the forums!
09:41:33 <jpeg_> :D
09:41:42 <Zaba> lol
09:43:25 <jpeg_> I wonder ... would it be possible to actually trigger game over at the end of the tutorial?
09:43:51 <jpeg_> that panlord is kind of ... not what I had in mind
09:44:04 <Zaba> you.die()?
09:44:11 <jpeg_> (though it's better than continuing on into the normal dungeon)
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09:44:26 <jpeg_> Zaba: without the "You die..." message :)
09:44:33 <coolio_mc> heya
09:44:39 <Keskitalo> coolio_mc: Hi!
09:44:45 <jpeg_> but yeah, should be possible to define something in lua
09:44:49 <Keskitalo> coolio_mc: Did you get my gnoll coment on the mantis item?
09:44:51 <Zaba> crawl.mpr("Death is normal in crawl; it looks roughly like this:") you.die()
09:44:53 <coolio_mc> I know it's not really important, but can you nuke the old Chuck tile already? D:
09:45:01 <Zaba> a good end for the tutorial, IMHO
09:45:07 <Napkin> awesome, thanks, greensnark :)
09:45:14 <jpeg_> Zaba: that's the first tutorial: enter -> You die... ;)
09:45:26 <greensnark> We should use the Sprint Sigmund in the tutorial
09:45:44 <greensnark> Actually we should use the Sprint Sigmund in the real game :P
09:45:45 <jpeg_> greensnark: Sigmund already features prominently :D
09:45:55 <jpeg_> greensnark: what does he do?
09:45:57 <greensnark> jpeg_: No, Mu_'s Sprint has a superior Sigmund!
09:46:28 <greensnark> "Sigmund hd:15 hp:100 spells:bolt_of_fire;confuse;invisibility;iskenderun's_mystic_blast ; scythe ego:distortion"
09:46:34 <coolio_mc> there was a replacement in co's giant pack https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3074
09:47:06 <jpeg_> Zaba: I'm more looking for some end-of game screen recapping all the commands, and then ending back up in the main menu (with restart_after_game)
09:47:30 <greensnark> Napkin: Working ok now?
09:47:40 <Napkin> updating, will let you know
09:48:01 <Napkin> left a char in sprint on purpose to also see if transfer still works
09:48:13 <Zaba> greensnark, eh... doesn't calling initialise_branch_depths also initialize the depths on which branch entries are placed?
09:48:34 <Gretell> Unstable branch on CDO updated to: 0.8.0-a0-4481-g52beb4e (32)
09:48:59 <Napkin> yes, loading works - transfer too \o/
09:49:08 <Napkin> greensnarking
09:49:15 <greensnark> Yay
09:49:22 <Napkin> ;)
09:49:23 <Zaba> greensnark, calling it on each game load would potentially mess existing depths up, no?
09:49:25 <greensnark> Zaba: Yes, but that doesn't matter, because loading the game will overwrite that
09:49:37 <greensnark> Those depths are saved with the game
09:49:48 <Keskitalo> felirx: Do you want to come to the technical discussions regarding the usability testing - it would be awesome if you did imho :)
09:50:26 <greensnark> Zaba: Might be better to extract the game-type specific setup though
09:50:36 <Napkin> btw, sprint & zotdef saves will be provided in .cs now.. only main game still has *.chr format and needs tarballs
09:52:42 <greensnark> Sounds good
09:53:06 <CIA-113> 03greensnark * r15d977d7adc8 10/crawl-ref/source/ (files.cc ng-init.cc ng-init.h): Move game-type-specific branch initialisation to initialise_branches_for_game_type() (Zaba).
09:54:27 <galehar> jpeg_: even better, after having finished a tutorial, go back to the tutorial submenu instead of the main menu.
09:54:33 <dpeg> Keskitalo: mail looks good. Do the testers have to test the officially released version?
09:54:38 <felirx> I can
09:54:50 <Keskitalo> felirx: Excellent!
09:54:52 <dpeg> galehar: yes, with the cursor already on the next lecture
09:55:14 <Keskitalo> dpeg: Ah, I forgot that from the mail, can you bring it up in a reply?
09:55:15 <jpeg_> galehar: ideally yes, but jumping to the main menu wouldn't require additional code :D
09:55:17 <greensnark> Zin could provide the tutorial
09:55:26 <jpeg_> Keskitalo: on it just now
09:55:38 <greensnark> We need different patron deities for each game type
09:55:43 <jpeg_> greensnark: somehow I'm getting the feeling you're not taking this seriously
09:55:55 <greensnark> Guilty as charged :)
09:55:57 <Keskitalo> felirx: The course starts on Wednesday, I'll get info when the technology discussions start later, I assume :)
09:56:02 <Keskitalo> now diapers!
09:56:18 <jpeg_> dpeg: on the topic of "seriously", did you see the Plog joke I posted above?
09:56:27 <jpeg_> :)
09:56:32 <dpeg> no!
09:57:01 <dpeg> You shummety-shum plon-flailing shrimp-rocket! :)
09:57:14 <jpeg_> :D
09:57:43 <jpeg_> the tutorial panlord (should you survive Sigmund) is hardcoded to the name "Plog"
09:58:01 <jpeg_> ... and I couldn't help wondering if it was an intentional jibe at two of our developers
09:59:09 <Napkin> hihi
09:59:37 <greensnark> Can't imagine who'd do that :P
09:59:43 <greensnark> Oh wait, I can!
09:59:47 <greensnark> It's obviously Keskitalo
09:59:57 <dpeg> jpeg_: git never forgets, we can uncover out the identity of the heinous shrink-wrappet!
10:00:02 <dpeg> -out
10:01:07 <dpeg> greensnark: new players expect tutorials, I think. But I recall that when I proposed a tutorial early on, nobody was enthused... apart from some lackluster words of support by Natpeter.
10:04:37 <Zaba> the ending tutorial map was added in 881c5e77
10:04:46 <Zaba> together with the demon called Plog
10:05:02 <greensnark> dpeg: I think the tutorial is great!
10:05:28 <greensnark> If I don't like stuff, I say so. Me being flippant is orthogonal to me liking/not liking things :P
10:05:42 <Zaba> it'd be great if the tutorial told me how to win
10:05:44 <Zaba> but meh :P
10:06:04 <jpeg_> we need an "I win" command
10:06:06 <greensnark> Zaba: To be fair, you intentionally self-destruct :P
10:06:16 <Zaba> greensnark, do I?
10:06:19 <syllogism> it tells you once you get past that &
10:06:21 <syllogism> so work on that
10:06:23 <Zaba> oh, I intentially dived into dungeon.cc.  Right.
10:07:16 <Zaba> that is indeed self-destruction.. unless you are referring to something else :P
10:07:56 <Napkin> now is the attack speed of monsters calculated?
10:08:10 <CIA-113> 03j-p-e-g * rf91f7809da97 10/crawl-ref/source/ (8 files in 2 dirs): Add code basis for adding different tutorial maps.
10:08:10 <Napkin> *how
10:09:09 <jpeg_> there, done
10:09:14 <jpeg_> gotta run now, bye
10:09:19 <Napkin> o/
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10:12:44 <dpeg> greensnark: great
10:13:41 <dpeg> I wasn't sure early on... nobody seemed to like tutorials very much, but I felt they'd help a lot. And I think they did. Between tutorials, the interface sugar and telnet, we'll get them all.
10:13:50 <dpeg> Apart from the ToMEists, perhaps :)
10:13:54 -!- enne has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
10:14:18 <greensnark> DarkGod is monitoring our advances
10:15:15 <Zaba> heh.
10:15:34 <greensnark> Napkin: Shall I update the Windows builds?
10:16:21 <Napkin> logged in already?
10:16:25 <greensnark> Tome team has been pretty good at executing over the years; I wonder how big it is
10:16:35 <greensnark> Napkin: I'm not logged in, but I could be!
10:16:58 <Napkin> i am, updating now
10:17:08 <greensnark> Oh, ok, your question mark confused me :P
10:17:26 <Napkin> nah, it was a question ;)
10:17:33 <greensnark> I'm updating the Mac builds
10:17:44 <greensnark> Now that Xcode is no longer involved it's a lot easier :)
10:17:48 <Napkin> wondering whether you are about to hit enter or still need to login - which I was already ;)
10:18:06 <greensnark> Napkin: Can we use the wordpress theme for the download page
10:18:11 <greensnark> Wordpress theme is better
10:18:17 <greensnark> The trunk builds page, I mean
10:18:21 <Napkin> ah
10:18:25 <Napkin> well, of course
10:18:28 <syllogism> Tome has a team? :P
10:18:30 <Napkin> are you willing to hack it?
10:18:42 <greensnark> syllogism: DarkGod and some other contributors
10:18:54 <greensnark> DarkGod has repeatedly stated he's not the only one in the past :)
10:18:56 <dpeg> is it open source?
10:18:57 <Napkin> not too motivated to do html at the moment.. still tired from patching our forum ;)
10:19:02 <greensnark> dpeg: Of course :P
10:19:14 <dpeg> well, DF, incursion, adom...
10:19:30 <greensnark> dpeg: Tome was an Angband derivative in its distant past :)
10:19:41 <dpeg> very good!
10:19:51 <Zaba> greensnark, did/does it share code?
10:19:52 <greensnark> Don't you remember -- it was originally called PernAngband
10:20:00 <dpeg> I read that on the wiki.
10:20:08 <greensnark> Zaba: It used to, but I don't think there's any Angband code left in it now
10:20:37 <dpeg> greensnark: so they in principle close the source :)
10:20:50 <greensnark> It's gone through major theme changes, first Pern, then McCaffrey's lawyers sued, then Tolkien, then original
10:21:12 <dpeg> lawyers...
10:21:12 <greensnark> Or rather, they got a C&D, they were not sued
10:21:47 <Zaba> hmm
10:22:42 <greensnark> Napkin: You could offer a nice theme to the Tome guys, they have that horrible looking stock theme
10:23:09 <greensnark> Napkin: Since you're awesome at HTML <3
10:23:09 -!- galehar has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
10:23:17 <kilobyte> you'd think that a popular game with theme based on X's books would give lots of free advertising for X... but lawyers and logic don't go together
10:23:17 <Napkin> lol
10:23:25 <Napkin> riiiiight ;-P
10:23:27 <Keskitalo> greensnark: I can neither confirm or deny (but it was actually felirx)
10:23:36 <greensnark> Haha
10:23:38 <kilobyte> or rather, their logic works well... but it has nothing to do with their client's interests
10:23:42 <Blackflare> that was a quick sprint fix
10:23:48 <Blackflare> gj napkin
10:24:07 <greensnark> kilobyte: Actually I think it was a trademark thing and trademark law says trademarks that are not enforced may be voided and genericised
10:24:07 <Napkin> blame greensnark & kilobyte ;) i'm innocent :)
10:24:13 <Zaba> blame me :P
10:24:24 <Zaba> level_id::describe for chunk names was my idea :P
10:24:28 <Blackflare> I got an addon for chrome that chimes a bell whenever crawl updates :D
10:24:33 <Napkin> him too!
10:24:41 <Zaba> and I tend to forget about such minor details as sprint or zotdef or next-big-thing :P
10:24:42 <ortoslon> Blackflare: link please
10:24:44 <greensnark> Blackflare: RSS feed of some kind?
10:24:48 <Blackflare> nah its um
10:24:49 <Eronarn> greensnark: i don't know if you've tried tome's online play
10:24:49 <Blackflare> one sec
10:24:55 <Eronarn> the dumps are much more sophisticated than crawl's
10:24:57 <Blackflare> its called page monitor
10:25:08 <Eronarn> you get a web interface to your character every time it's saved
10:25:10 <greensnark> Eronarn: No, haven't tried Tome in about, ah, 8 years :)
10:25:17 <kilobyte> using a characters from a book doesn't breach a trade mark... it's a copyright issue, AFAIK
10:25:21 <Eronarn> rather than just a textfile when you do a dump
10:25:24 <greensnark> Yes, I heard there are lots of online sync features in the new Tome
10:25:25 <Gretell> Windows development builds on CDO updated to: 0.8.0-a0-4483-gf91f780
10:25:25 <Napkin> well.. now that you mention it.. I could add a rss feed for trunk builds
10:25:26 <Blackflare> https://chrome.google.com/extensions/detail/pemhgklkefakciniebenbfclihhmmfcd here you go
10:25:36 <Eronarn> it's quite nifty
10:25:40 <ortoslon> Napkin: please do
10:25:42 <Keskitalo> Oh, and about tutorial greatness - I've seen a couple of reports of people happily doing the tutorial and moving onto the hints mode (on SA there's one or two), this is heart-warming
10:25:52 <Eronarn> it would be nice to have something similar for crawl
10:25:52 <greensnark> Blackflare: Ah, neat
10:26:01 <greensnark> Eronarn: Got a link to a sample?
10:26:05 <Blackflare> page monitor is nice because it works anywhere
10:26:12 <Blackflare> I use it for updates on webcomics too
10:26:24 <Napkin> and greensnark - their admin is so much better off using the default theme - even if some think it's ugly :D
10:26:26 <ortoslon> some webcomics don't have rss feeds?
10:26:30 <Blackflare> apparently
10:26:35 <greensnark> Blackflare: I usually use RSS feeds for such things, because I can aggregate feeds nicely
10:26:44 <ortoslon> horrors
10:26:46 <Blackflare> Ive never bothered with rss stuff :D
10:27:00 * greensnark is guilty of Google Reader use.
10:27:06 <greensnark> Most damnably convenient.
10:27:07 <Napkin> shame on you!
10:27:09 <Blackflare> except to watch eronarn's sexy sexy links
10:27:13 <greensnark> Napkin: I knooow :(
10:27:25 <greensnark> Google knows all about me
10:27:34 <Napkin> well, 3/4 of users registerd on CDO have gmail.. you are in good company :>
10:27:41 <Blackflare> its ok they promise they wont do anything evil with that info :v
10:27:45 <greensnark> But hey, at least they don't know my home address unlike certain people who've registered certain domains :P
10:27:52 <Eronarn> greensnark: http://te4.org/characters/1842/tome/733432f7-196c-11e0-ae5d-001cc000edf0
10:27:53 <Napkin> arg!
10:27:57 <Napkin> mean guy :-P
10:28:00 <Napkin> ;D
10:28:35 <syllogism> you died 13 times? You should play on "hardcore" (aka the real normal)
10:29:12 <Eronarn> you can even mouseover on the items to get stat popups and stuff - it's very slick
10:29:23 <Eronarn> syllogism: tome is hard enough even with extra lives
10:30:02 <Eronarn> it's a very, very unforgiving game - i ran into a boss that hit me for ~940 in one round. when i had 640 max HP. on a character with very high constitution.
10:30:20 <dpeg> it is obvious that someone who has died 13 times will have a very low willpower :P
10:30:45 <dpeg> Eronarn: is that intended, or just unbalanced until fixed?
10:31:05 <Eronarn> dpeg: intended, pretty much all the game's threats are 'berserk orb guardian' level of difficulty
10:31:15 <Napkin> probably went to a dungeon at the wrong time?
10:31:19 <Eronarn> except you can't run away from them
10:31:37 <ortoslon> crawl has tomes of desctruction, tome should have crawls of something
10:31:49 <dpeg> they have so many numbers... but I think banders love that
10:31:49 <syllogism> I don't think it's entirely intended
10:31:53 <Eronarn> ortoslon: tome has more adom references. it has an infinite dungeon!
10:33:55 <kilobyte> you can "slice", "cut", "shred", "rip" or "tear" a net but you can't "hack" at it...  a glaring omission
10:34:16 <dpeg> isn't "Hacker" a title though?
10:34:33 <kilobyte> no
10:36:34 <Keskitalo> ooh we have shorter elf now too
10:36:49 <greensnark> Ok, this gives me an excuse to dump my MuFE and start a new game
10:37:04 <greensnark> Early game is awesome now :)
10:37:12 <greensnark> We need more serial vaults like the gnoll camp
10:37:23 <ortoslon> what is a serial vault?
10:37:32 <kilobyte> uhm, having a slightly shorter one branch being enough to dump a char?
10:37:36 <Keskitalo> greensnark: <3
10:37:50 <greensnark> kilobyte: No longer being on the bleeding edge!
10:37:56 <dpeg> greensnark: I was amazed how quickly you coded the serial vault idea... I expected players to come up with content if I just make a sample furniture vault.
10:38:07 <Keskitalo> ortoslon: A piece of script that places many minivaults on the same level from a thematic set.
10:38:11 <greensnark> dpeg: Well, the implementation was trivial
10:38:22 <dpeg> greensnark: if I had known, I'd proposed it much earlier.
10:38:29 <ortoslon> Keskitalo: ah. a vault shotgun!
10:38:31 * kilobyte hands greensnark a band-aid to cover the wound.
10:38:33 <greensnark> dpeg: Content is usually way more difficult than infrastructure
10:38:38 <Keskitalo> ortoslon: Check gnoll_camp.des for an example
10:38:54 <Keskitalo> And I think Zaba split other serial vaults to their own files from mini_features.des too
10:39:00 <Zaba> only for window
10:39:09 <Keskitalo> ortoslon: co made one with windowed corridors that works extremely well
10:39:10 <dpeg> there is one for oklobs
10:39:11 <Zaba> I was too lazy to do the others at that point
10:39:22 <Zaba> I still think it'd be a good idea to split them all into separate files, though
10:39:29 <dpeg> Zaba: you should have told me
10:39:29 <Keskitalo> Zaba: I agree
10:39:45 <greensnark> Keskitalo: I like the monstery vaults more than the furniture vaults!
10:40:16 <greensnark> Often autoexplore just zips me past the furniture :)
10:40:17 <Keskitalo> I like both, but I'll take that (too) as praise for the gnolls :)
10:40:25 * dpeg never got any credits for the bare idea :P
10:40:27 <Keskitalo> greensnark: That's true of course
10:40:39 * Keskitalo gives dpeg many credits!
10:40:45 * dpeg starts another game.
10:40:51 * ortoslon has a dream: a zoo vault and a rod of smiting on D:1
10:41:02 <Keskitalo> ortoslon: Horribly grindy :P
10:41:06 <Keskitalo> tat's a nightmare
10:45:31 <CIA-113> 03dolorous * r655392e33dd5 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-data.h: For now, move oklob saplings from lightgreen 'p' to lightcyan 'P'.
10:45:44 <Eronarn> is it possible to have a serial vault guarantee placing one, and only one, of the specific subvaults?
10:46:00 <Eronarn> guaranteeing placing both that one, and only one of that one, regardless of what else it places
10:46:40 <greensnark> Eronarn: You have full control, you're essentially making Lua calls to place additional vaults
10:46:47 <dpeg> Eronarn: yes
10:47:07 <Eronarn> if so it would be pretty cool to have a serial vault that was a bunch of 'obelisks' (renamed statues) with guardians - and when you kill the guardians, the 'pyramid' opens up
10:47:24 <dpeg> Mu_: around?
10:47:30 <Mu_> hail
10:47:39 <Eronarn> said pyramid could have a trove inside, perhaps, if we don't nuke them
10:48:01 <Eronarn> (i still don't think we should nuke them, btw)
10:48:04 <Napkin> http://crawl.develz.org/trunk/rss/
10:48:08 <Napkin> will add more info later
10:48:12 <Napkin> off home o/
10:48:44 <dpeg> bye!
10:49:03 <dpeg> Eronarn: elliptic will reply some needed feedback, so there is hope
10:49:50 <greensnark> Napkin: Ciao!
10:50:02 <Eronarn> dpeg: one possible mechanic for fixing troves would be a 'loan'
10:50:13 <Eronarn> you get the items now, but must pay up in the future, or else $BADSTUFF
10:50:58 <dpeg> interesting
10:51:55 <Eronarn> this gives flexibility: a) loan has interest so you have to pay more if you do not pay up soon b) one-off chances that, when you ID something really cool, the loan's issuer says "hey, if you give me that we're even" c) can scale the loan 'wrath' with the character's power level, so it's not like other portals where they have to have a timer so you can't come back later when they're trivial
10:52:04 <dpeg> not necessarily for troves, but we could have conferrers (with selected stuff)...
10:52:31 <dpeg> no killing shopkeepers please, we're civilised
10:53:05 <Eronarn> one example bad thing for an ignored loan could be: all dungeon shopkeepers refuse to sell you
10:53:42 <Keskitalo> Eronarn: obelisk/guardian etc idea is excellent
10:53:44 <Eronarn> that is a *powerful* effect, and very meaningful if it happens to you any time before you finish exploring the shop-containing levels
10:54:23 <dpeg> !tell Mu_ if so it would be pretty cool to have a serial vault that was a bunch of 'obelisks' (renamed statues) with guardians - and when you kill the guardians, the 'pyramid' opens up (Eronarn)
10:54:24 <Henzell> dpeg: OK, I'll let Mu_ know.
10:54:35 <dpeg> does !tell Mu_ actually work?
10:54:49 <Keskitalo> !seen Mu_
10:54:49 <Henzell> I last saw Mu_ at Mon Jan 10 16:47:30 2011 UTC (7m 19s ago) saying hail on ##crawl-dev.
10:54:56 <Eronarn> the next time he says smoething he will get pinged
10:55:09 <dpeg> good, there was some concern with underscores in names
10:55:10 <Mu_> ye it works
10:55:10 <Henzell> Mu_: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it.
10:55:31 <Eronarn> Mu_: I think this would work well with ancient champions. As an earlier vault, one is the boss. As a later vault, one for each obelisk, and Khufu is the boss.
10:55:33 <dpeg> Mu_: sounds good? If you want, we can flesh out the idea... I have little time for vault making these days, though :(
10:55:35 <Keskitalo> ooh, guardian spirit + channeling
10:55:48 <dpeg> Keskitalo: cheating!
10:55:48 <Keskitalo> (from kilobyte's commit message)
10:56:00 <Keskitalo> Nah, Evocations perk :P
10:56:09 <Eronarn> Keskitalo: it's not so great in practice, tbh
10:56:31 <Eronarn> if you're pure heavy armor nemelex i guess it might be kind of handy
10:56:38 <Keskitalo> gs isn't often all that great, but it was good on Yred worshipper
10:57:00 <Mu_> i can't visualize exactly what you mean
10:57:04 <Keskitalo> Eronarn: You need spellpoints and Neme doesn't do Invocations
10:57:25 <Eronarn> the problem with GS is that it is best on characters whose escape effects don't require an MP cost
10:57:45 <Eronarn> but those characters aren't likely to have as much MP anyways
10:58:00 <dpeg> "GS surely has uses, though
10:58:04 <dpeg> Mu_: the idea?
10:58:15 <Mu_> ye
10:58:20 <Eronarn> dpeg: it has uses, but so does a scroll of noise
10:58:32 <dpeg> Eronarn: "GS has more, imo
10:58:37 <dpeg> I have used it to good effect
10:58:55 <dpeg> Mu_: There's a bunch of mysterious statues on the level, all but one inert. You kill the guardian(s) around the active one, to open up the next one.
10:58:57 <Eronarn> the question is, how widely used is the amulet? as far as i can tell very few characters want to use them for a prolonged period
10:59:36 <dpeg> I don't see the problem. It has clearly tactical applications.
10:59:41 <dpeg> in contrast to other stuff we have
11:00:06 <Eronarn> dpeg: my problem with it is just that it has such a significant downside - imo the worst downside of all the amulets
11:00:06 <Mu_> like the ancient champion vault but spread around the level?
11:00:10 <Eronarn> Mu_: yes
11:00:24 <Eronarn> except you just have to do them all, not in any specific order
11:00:42 <Eronarn> and the gooey caramel center should be something cooler (say, a trove portal)
11:01:33 <Eronarn> (one option for this: require it to be on a very open level, and have the obelisks shine beams of light at the center, drawing them out with corona style illumination)
11:01:51 <Eronarn> or the reverse - the obelisks start lit and you need to turn them all off
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11:11:17 <dpeg> Eronarn: what's the downside? "Faith has a downside, and "Gourm lesser so, but "GS?
11:13:39 <Mu_> i'll try playin around with serial vaults tomorrow
11:14:04 <Keskitalo> Mu_: awesome :)
11:14:37 <casmith789> dpeg: you lose MP. pretty major downside
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11:16:41 <dpeg> casmith789: but it's easy to switch
11:17:03 <casmith789> well your MP becomes zero, so not really
11:17:15 <Keskitalo> maybe if it didn't drain strictly "MP first, then HP"
11:17:26 <Keskitalo> but more gradually.. like 30% of the damage went from MP
11:17:32 <Keskitalo> or something like that
11:18:54 <Blackflare> any of you guys know the square vault with a translucent rock around a smaller green crystal square?
11:19:09 <Blackflare> someone told me theres a secret door on the crystal but ive been searching for 1000s of turns
11:19:32 <casmith789> it isn't on the crystal
11:19:41 <casmith789> oh right, yes it is
11:20:28 <dpeg> Keskitalo: I don't think it is necessary. "GS has a clear gain with a clear drawback? Why increase power?
11:21:37 <ortoslon> was flame/frost not giving damage bonus fixed?
11:21:42 <ortoslon> to missiles
11:22:12 <casmith789> GS is useful for high mp non casters, that's about it.
11:23:33 <Keskitalo> dpeg: I'm ok with the amulet, but it's appeal /is/ very narrow.
11:24:38 <Keskitalo> I'm wondering if it would be too good if it worked on actual casters. They do spend MP in or before combat, so they'd get less power from it anyay.
11:25:18 <st_> and amulet that let them cast from HP would be better
11:26:32 <st_> that would be broken though
11:26:45 <greensnark> Yeah, like sublimation :)
11:27:53 <greensnark> I think whoever came up with a lot of the old necro spells was on crack
11:27:56 <st_> pure casters need to be viable in the extended endgame though right?
11:28:16 <greensnark> Part of the reason the extended endgame is so hard is because casters were too strong
11:28:27 <greensnark> (also the paladin tank types)
11:28:33 <greensnark> Powergame spiral there
11:28:37 <dpeg> Keskitalo: compare to the appeal of other items
11:29:03 <dpeg> greensnark: yes. Was that after Linley?
11:29:11 <greensnark> dpeg: Not sure
11:29:22 <greensnark> 3.0 - 4.0 days are a big murky unknown
11:29:28 <greensnark> Only sorear has studied that history :P
11:29:34 <greensnark> Especially pre 3.0 :P
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11:31:55 <syllogism> "renamed priest.cc, priest.h to abyss" wait what (from 3.3 changelog)
11:32:07 <dpeg> We need a team of historians as well :)
11:32:18 <dpeg> alongside the UIP team
11:33:12 <dpeg> oh god, someone just asked for a container on the forum
11:41:04 <Keskitalo> not on the wont do list yet?
11:41:18 <Keskitalo> hey, I'll do the historian thing, someone get me a grant or something
11:41:21 <dpeg> danr claims no
11:41:45 <Keskitalo> "it's not on the wont do list so it can probably go in"? :P (kidding)
11:42:31 <Keskitalo> I did follow the crawl dev yahoo group for a good while, I believe it was the 4.00 beta era though
11:42:41 <Keskitalo> I didn't read r.g.r.m back in the day
11:42:56 <syllogism> "I checked the "won't do" list and this is not on there. I didn't have time to read all 3,000 bad ideas."
11:43:16 <syllogism> I like how he apparently thinks bad ideas is somewhat equivalent to the "won't do" list
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11:43:22 <dpeg> I'll add "no containers" unless someone beats me to it. Now taekwondo, though.
11:43:59 <Keskitalo> ??4.0.0
11:43:59 <Henzell> I don't have a page labeled 400 in my learndb.
11:45:47 <Keskitalo> I know Josh Fisman was keen on adding inventive and flavourful spells in the 4.0.0 team
11:46:08 <syllogism> 2.7 had sublimation and death's door
11:47:32 <syllogism> even 1.1 had death's door
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11:52:43 <greensnark> raxrax!
11:52:46 <greensnark> Hi :)
11:53:54 <greensnark> I'm playing a chain mail fighter with spammals support and it is quite entertaining :)
11:53:56 <Napkin> hey greensnark? what else would you like to see in that rss feed? maybe a link to some html changelog?
11:54:11 <rax> Hi greensnark!
11:54:18 <greensnark> Napkin: Doesn't the gitweb thingy already have an rss feed option?
11:54:20 <rax> That is an interesting combo!
11:54:21 <Napkin> Hi rax!
11:54:44 <Napkin> hmm, could probably link to that :)
11:54:48 <rax> Hi Napkin!
11:54:52 <Napkin> but parsed looks much nicer
11:58:14 <Napkin> this would be an option: http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl-ref.git;a=shortlog;h=f91f780
11:58:54 <Napkin> you can give commit hash as starting point for a shortlog
11:59:04 <ortoslon> Napkin: there also should be a feed for windows build updates
11:59:16 <Napkin> that's what i'm talking about, ortoslon ;)
11:59:21 <ortoslon> ah
11:59:23 <Napkin> http://crawl.develz.org/trunk/rss/
11:59:35 <Napkin> but needs some love ;)
12:00:24 <ortoslon> hmm
12:00:34 <ortoslon> maybe 5 separate feeds for each package type
12:00:51 <Napkin> then special builds like crawl_squarelos would get lost
12:00:53 <Napkin> not sure yet
12:01:02 <Napkin> but definitely, one for all too
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12:05:58 <Eronarn> Keskitalo: what I want is for "GS to hold some amount of your MP in reserve
12:06:17 <Eronarn> hit MP first, but never take more than a certain amount of MP
12:06:29 <Eronarn> say - your racial MP amount, or your MP from spellcasting, or 10% of MP, etc. etc.
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12:15:58 <Keskitalo> greensnark: with the other kind of trampling, erolcha would've stomped right through your spammals
12:16:10 <greensnark> Keskitalo: Eek :)
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12:18:33 <Keskitalo> greensnark: Hey, you have the new mace of brilliance!
12:18:58 <greensnark> Keskitalo: It's neat <3
12:19:06 <syllogism> ??mace
12:19:07 <Henzell> mace[1/1]: A long handle with a heavy lump on the end. (one-handed mace; Dmg 8 Acc +3 Delay 14)
12:24:36 <Keskitalo> greensnark: nice use of ?fear
12:24:46 <Keskitalo> and door :)
12:24:47 <greensnark> Too bad Pikel is around :P
12:25:07 <greensnark> Spammals 4ever
12:26:31 <greensnark> Never know what to acquire :P
12:28:06 <purge> oh, i started a fighter after the buff and i have to say it seemed much much easier :)
12:28:15 <purge> in fact, i think you should do a 10% buff or so
12:28:17 <purge> er
12:28:18 <purge> 10% nerf
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12:31:16 <Napkin> hey, that scorpion corpse was supposed to be white - why was it yellow for you, greensnark?
12:31:17 <greensnark> Yeah, even starting ring mail feels quite nice
12:31:26 <greensnark> Napkin: What, scorps are yellow, no?
12:31:40 <Napkin> @? scorpion
12:31:40 <Gretell> scorpion (08s) | Speed: 10 | HD: 3 | Health: 9-24 | AC/EV: 5/10 | Damage: 1004(medium poison) | Res: 06magic(12) | Vul: 09poison | Chunks: 09poisonous | XP: 37.
12:31:54 <Napkin> poisonous + rP -> white corpse
12:32:04 <Napkin> weird.. did you disable some lua?
12:32:15 <Napkin> or did that get changed again?
12:32:24 <monky> pois/contam now right
12:32:35 <Napkin> oh
12:32:46 <monky> (there is a new corpse flavour that is poisonous without rpois and contam with it)
12:32:48 <Napkin> pity.. but ok, makes sense
12:33:34 <Napkin> cool, wights are z? nice
12:33:55 <monky> they also come in packs
12:34:08 <purge> what will crawl do when it runs out of letters??? :)
12:34:14 <Napkin> @?? wight
12:34:14 <Gretell> wight (03z) | Speed: 10 | HD: 3 | Health: 9-24 | AC/EV: 4/10 | Damage: 813(drain) | Flags: 07undead, evil | Res: 06magic(16), 02cold++, 03poison | XP: 58.
12:34:21 <st_> put dwarves on q
12:34:28 <Napkin> arg.. still draining.. that in pack is mean
12:35:06 <Zaba> purge, we will remove monsters
12:38:25 <Napkin> omg.. poor hill giant!
12:40:54 <Zannick> purge: invent more letters
12:40:55 <greensnark> Hey, I didn't know giant eyeballs could gaze at your spammals instead of you :P
12:41:32 <Napkin> this light green for your summons, with the white/grey letter inside really hurts my eyes
12:41:39 <Napkin> *background
12:45:38 <greensnark> Keskitalo: Heavy armour is pretty good :P
12:45:41 <upsy> @??dwarf
12:45:41 <Gretell> dwarf (15q) | Speed: 10 | HD: 5 | Health: 17-37 | AC/EV: 2/12 | Damage: 10 | Res: 06magic(20) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 129.
12:45:53 <greensnark> Napkin: What do you use?
12:46:00 <Keskitalo> ??chain mail
12:46:00 <Henzell> chain mail[1/1]: +6 ac -4 ev.
12:46:09 <Keskitalo> soo that's 20% GDR
12:46:47 <greensnark> I'm in scale atm, actually
12:46:49 <greensnark> Got a nice randart
12:47:01 <Keskitalo> 15% then
12:47:09 <greensnark> Feels pretty good :)
12:47:21 <Napkin> I have it completely different.. blue (friend), lightblue (neutral), red (stabbable), lightred (may stab)
12:47:43 <Keskitalo> Endgame with heavy armour is boring I hear, so they do need a nerf, maybe just in the high end
12:48:29 <Zannick> you hear? :/
12:48:53 <Keskitalo> but one simple possiblity would be to give 4% per base AC over 2 (instead of 5%), that would give 16% from chain, 32% from plate and 48% from cpm (instead of 20%, 40% and 60%)
12:48:59 <Keskitalo> Zannick: from feedback
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12:49:38 <Zannick> all i remember is the midgame became very unfun and difficult in heavy armour after the big nerf
12:49:53 <Keskitalo> no idea how much effect that would have :) could also cap armour bonus at +9 at the high end
12:50:08 <Keskitalo> Zannick: Yeah, well it should be ok now
12:50:21 <Zannick> yeah, i will attempt to find time to try it
12:51:01 <greensnark> Keskitalo: It feels very good now, even the low-end armours are nice and usable
12:51:10 <greensnark> I think the low-end stuff is in a good place now
12:51:28 <greensnark> I was able to start using ring mail + spellcasting on this HuWn pretty early and it didn't feel forced
12:54:21 <Keskitalo> yeah, i'm happy with how the early and midgame sounds, so maybe could just give diminishing returns re:gdr with the heaviest armours (and do that +9 cap)
12:55:40 <Keskitalo> something should be done about the endgame i think before the release
12:56:15 <Keskitalo> galehar was planning some armour casting change, but I've heard pretty good comments about the current state..
12:57:23 <st_> being able to cast stuff in plate mail makes you feel like a badass
12:57:51 <Keskitalo> I guess it's more about factoring armour skill more (looking at the wiki page)
12:59:58 <syllogism> do you actually know endgame armour is too good
13:00:12 <syllogism> endgame spellcasters are definitely too good
13:00:31 <Keskitalo> point
13:15:13 <greensnark> Who came up with the oklob surrounded by bushes :P
13:17:07 <st_> unless you've put an oklob in one of your vaults you're not a real vault maker apparently
13:17:28 <greensnark> st_: That's completely inaccurate. You need an oklob *and* glass
13:19:00 <st_> I'm going to make a cerebov behind glass (with oklobs) vault
13:20:06 <Keskitalo> greensnark: You play with non-muted ally messages?!?
13:20:36 <greensnark> Keskitalo: Never bothered me that much, I can Escape out of the spam if necsesary :(
13:20:40 <greensnark> Er, :)
13:20:47 <Keskitalo> 1learn add greensnark likes bashing through --more-- a lot
13:21:08 <st_> you'll love Jiyva if you like --more--s
13:21:18 <greensnark> That hydra multitargeting does a number on my poor spammals :P
13:21:32 <Keskitalo> imagine if they had the other-kind-of-trampling!!
13:22:05 <greensnark> I'll have to cheap out and zerk the hydra :P
13:22:11 <Keskitalo> co had a much nicer lair floor tile colouring on the forum
13:22:39 <Keskitalo> must've been that desaturation business
13:23:57 <greensnark> Is there a screenshot
13:24:08 <greensnark> I've always thought the Lair floor tile looked a bit fungal
13:24:13 <greensnark> Er, mossy :P
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13:24:54 <greensnark> Well, what do you know, another oklob shooting gallery :P
13:25:52 <greensnark> I really hate the ones that have all stairs in it :P
13:26:00 <st_> millions of spammals deals with it
13:30:33 <greensnark> I don't remember oklobs being so damn effective in ZotDef :P
13:36:01 <st_> rnadom bow and arrows in a lab?
13:36:55 <Zannick> they are, though :)
13:37:08 <Zannick> i have to remember not to step between them and the enemies
13:38:36 <purge> Labbys should cause you to hunger 4x or so, so its actually a tough decision if you want to go in, and "starvation awaits!" actually means something
13:39:13 <purge> but maybe a few scattered exit portals should be thrown in to be nice with that
13:40:28 <Keskitalo> more hunger soudns good
13:41:42 <purge> right now labbys are just an exercise in patience
13:41:46 <purge> with good loot
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13:42:37 <purge> although i have to say starving to death would probably be one of the most rage inducing deaths
13:44:22 <ortoslon> starving, drinking all your potions but one, still starving, drinking that last unidentified potion, subbumbing to poison :D
13:44:31 <ortoslon> *succumbing
13:49:12 * dpeg descends in a could of oklobs.
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13:51:28 <greensnark> dpeg: Did you create the vault with the oklob surrounded by bushes? :P
13:52:22 <Zannick> last time i was starving to death i was fighting a yak desperately hoping to kill it and it would leave a corpse
13:52:26 <Zannick> i fainted and it killed me
13:52:52 <dpeg> greensnark: no!
13:52:53 <st_> minmay put vaults with oklobs in with all his others to ensure they would be commited
13:53:01 <greensnark> :P
13:53:09 <dpeg> minmay is wise, and everyone can learn from him.
13:53:21 <greensnark> Hey, Sif gift <3
13:53:27 <greensnark> I was afraid I wasn't casting enough :P
13:53:37 <dpeg> It is not me who is all about oklobs... you just don't understand that oklobs are the future.
13:53:40 <greensnark> Behold, spammals spam augmented by Call Imp spam!
13:53:56 <st_> Hexes!
13:54:00 <dpeg> greensnark: 0.9 will see the summon cap. sorear will appear exclusively for that one.
13:54:23 <greensnark> :)
13:55:38 <greensnark> For some reason whenever I see sheep I think of Floyd's Animals album
13:56:03 <greensnark> "Bleating and babbling they fall on his neck with a scream"
13:57:49 <dpeg> burning and beating, they fall on the ground with a beam
13:58:05 <Zannick> while source-diving last night i discovered that sheep can catch fire if something next to them is sticky-flamed
13:58:12 <Zannick> i never knew this, and i thought it was hilarious
13:58:23 <ortoslon> why only sheep
13:58:37 <Zannick> i don't know
13:59:00 <Zannick> maybe they are especially flammable
13:59:29 <dpeg> behold the sight of burning sheepse
14:12:15 <Ashenzari> [Tiles] Multi-key rollover sometimes causes unwanted key repeat on on a Dell Inspiron 1100 laptop (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3192) by jasonspiro
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14:16:26 <greensnark> Oh well :P
14:16:37 <greensnark> Burning sheep are hilarious
14:16:53 <greensnark> One well-placed sticky flame and the flock is history
14:17:16 <greensnark> I wonder if my ghost will acquit itself well
14:17:29 <greensnark> Nice weapon, nice AC, decent EV, lots of spells :P
14:17:31 <TGWi> how did that mechanic come about?
14:17:39 <syllogism> is ghost version of sticky flame ranged
14:17:43 <TGWi> someone decided sticky flame needed a buff and sheep needed a nerf?
14:18:13 <greensnark> TGWi: "easter egg"
14:18:26 <syllogism> "nethackism"? :P
14:18:28 <TGWi> someone decided crawl needed to become more nethackish?
14:18:32 <TGWi> argh syllogism :P
14:18:32 <greensnark> syllogism: Or that :P
14:20:16 <greensnark> dpeg: http://basicinstructions.net/basic-instructions/2011/1/9/how-to-be-persuasive.html
14:22:38 <dpeg> greensnark: nothing a bunch of oklobs couldn't achieve faster and cheaper
14:22:49 <greensnark> True!
14:22:52 <Eronarn> i don't mind the sheep thing as long as it's extended to other flammable creatures
14:22:57 <Eronarn> wood golems at minimum
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14:27:09 <sorear> don't bushes also do it?
14:28:43 <Zannick> just give creatures a flammable flag
14:29:38 <Zannick> and change the check for MONS_SHEEP to that
14:31:01 <Eronarn> now we just need a spell that makes creatures flammable :D
14:32:05 <Zannick> and make fire spells set them on fire
14:32:38 <Zannick> some fire spells :p
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14:33:01 <Eronarn> the same ones that melt wax or burn trees, presumably
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15:58:20 <Napkin> how do I ask git-log to show me the last 100 commits?
15:58:49 <sorear> git log HEAD...HEAD\~100
15:59:09 <Napkin> 3 dots?
15:59:44 <sorear> I can never remember how to use the 2 dots form so I use 3
15:59:51 <sorear> A...B = A..B B..A
16:00:38 <sorear> also that command I gave will return more than 100 commits if there are branch merges - it counts 100 mainline commits, and everything merged by them
16:00:50 <Napkin> ahh
16:01:28 <Napkin> anyway to consider branche merges yet only show 100?
16:01:35 <sorear> if you want the 100 newest commits, I'd probably do something with git log --format=%H | head -n 100
16:02:01 <Napkin> that won't work nicely, because i have a format with multiple lines
16:02:17 <Napkin> where the output can have multiple \n
16:02:27 * sorear RTFM
16:02:36 <Napkin> thanks
16:02:40 <sorear> does git log -100 do what you want?
16:03:12 <Napkin> combined should - excellent :)
16:04:53 <Napkin> ... = "Which basically means that you'll get all commits that are in either of the two branches, but not in both."
16:05:11 <Napkin> only -100 might be better then
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16:27:55 <TGWi> due: have you given any thought to my disgusting parasites?
16:28:14 <due> what
16:28:15 <Henzell> due: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it.
16:28:19 <due> how the *hell* did you know I just signed on?
16:28:23 <due> !messages
16:28:24 <Henzell> (1/1) greensnark said (8h 43m 53s ago): I saw a lovely labyrinth in Snake and I was going to it with a song on my lips and aargh your goddamn portal mimics!!11!
16:28:32 <TGWi> I didn't
16:28:32 <due> :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
16:28:44 <TGWi> do portal mimics announce themselves?
16:30:34 <due> I can't honestly remember
16:30:47 <due> !tell greensnark I take glee and pleasure in your pain.
16:30:48 <Henzell> due: OK, I'll let greensnark know.
16:31:00 <MarvinPA> they don't, which makes them really obviously mimics
16:31:01 <Zannick> feature mimics <3
16:31:21 <Zannick> i've come across real unannounced portals
16:31:22 <due> MarvinPA: yeah, they're on my todo list
16:31:31 <due> There are unannounced real portals.
16:31:34 <monky> do they still spawn in places in which they obviously don't belong
16:31:36 <TGWi> not labs, at least
16:31:42 <due> monky: no :D
16:31:45 <monky> oh good
16:31:48 <TGWi> it might be best to generate them via actual vaults
16:31:49 <MarvinPA> they're rare though, and when you find a lab portal in a zig it's sort of a giveaway
16:31:51 <Zannick> namely, a bazaar, which didn't go away when i left, but turned into a timed bazaar instead
16:32:04 <Zannick> so i went right back in :3
16:32:17 <due> Zannick: okay that is buggy and sounds like regressive behaviour
16:32:22 <due> anyway i am to do work so byeeee.
16:32:31 <Zannick> that was a long time ago
16:32:34 <Eronarn> yeah, that bug was funny
16:32:34 <Zannick> might have been fixed by now
16:32:42 <Eronarn> i did the same bailey like 3 times
16:32:54 <Zannick> hahahaha
16:33:24 <Zannick> my experience with baileys is "oh god run away" or i die trying to run away
16:33:48 <Eronarn> i'm not sure i've ever died in one, they're easy as a caster
16:33:58 <Zannick> that might have been my problem :P
16:36:31 <Zannick> !lg . place=bailey s=map
16:36:31 <Sequell> 2 games for Zannick (place=bailey): 1x minmay bailey axe hex keep, 1x bailey polearm 2
16:46:07 <kilobyte> I found the bug that is one of two stumbling blocks to labs in Zigs/etc, so we might make them actually work.
16:46:30 <kilobyte> with real labs being allowed (for example, from a Trovel), this could fly
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17:00:39 <Eronarn> kilobyte: a zig made entirely of labs
17:01:29 <Mu_> ero is your proposal for ench split on the wiki
17:03:39 <Eronarn> part of it is, part of it isn't; i can put more up if you like
17:05:04 <Mu_> ye
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17:25:39 <Eronarn> is there a list of what the current iteration of the split is
17:29:34 <kilobyte> spl-data.h has accurate and up-to-date info
17:30:05 <Eronarn> it's also spl-data.h, though :P i'd prefer human-readable
17:37:03 <kilobyte> perl <spl-data.h -ne '$spell=$1 if /^ +SPELL_.*"(.*)"/;printf "%-30s %s\n", $spell, $1 if /(SPTYP_[^,]*)/'
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17:38:13 <kilobyte> oops, a junk comment
17:38:14 <kilobyte> perl <spl-data.h -ne '$spell=$1 if /^ +SPELL_.*"(.*)"/;printf "%-30s %s\n", $spell, $1 if /^ +(SPTYP_[^,]*)/'
17:42:10 <Eronarn> Mu_: https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:magic:enchantments_split#split_5benevolent_vs_malevolent_energies_ero
17:43:17 <kilobyte> uhm... how exactly can you put branding spells in different schools?
17:43:25 <kilobyte> that's totally random
17:44:07 <Eronarn> kilobyte: 'branding spells' are like 'summoning spells'; we have lots of ally-creating spells that don't use summ at all
17:44:26 <Eronarn> also, hmm, MSH got moved to tmut didn't it
17:45:31 <Eronarn> anyhow, whether or not the branding spells belong in the same school depends on the nature of the split, and in this split, they could be all in the same school or be split across school lines
17:45:31 <kilobyte> uhm, they either summon them or reanimate a corpse/item
17:46:19 <Eronarn> excruciating wounds channels dark energies that make your weapon scream with pain
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17:46:23 <Eronarn> tukima's makes your sword sharper
17:46:29 <Eronarn> it's not at all unreasonable to have them in different schools
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17:48:34 <Eronarn> whoops, sure blade was on the wrong list
17:53:55 <casmith789> I like lemuel's split
17:57:25 <kilobyte> "sword sharper"?  It animates it, that's all.
17:58:37 <OG17> why do people want to make this so complicated
17:58:55 <OG17> "good thing you cast on your stuff" and "bad thing you cast on other people's stuff"
17:59:12 <casmith789> silence
17:59:17 <OG17> sharp sword and dark energy sword is the exact same thing
17:59:23 <Eronarn> kilobyte: there's two tukima's spells
17:59:25 <OG17> yes, you cast silence on yourself
17:59:41 <casmith789> well it's a bad thing you cast on yourself
18:00:07 <kilobyte> Eronarn: git grep Tukima spl-data.h
18:00:28 <OG17> it's good in that you control it
18:00:50 <OG17> if it was single-target it'd be hex but then you wouldn't be casting it on yourself
18:01:08 <casmith789> okay so basically stuff you cast on yourself and stuff you cast on other people is your split
18:01:12 <OG17> anyway!  Did new ench apts get a lot of discussion or are they more placeholders?
18:01:31 <OG17> no because that ends up with ridiculous things like two haste spells
18:02:11 <OG17> is "buff" and "debuff" really that far out there
18:03:15 <monky> yes
18:03:18 <monky> projected noise
18:03:23 <monky> (remove projected noise)
18:03:26 <Eronarn> i don't like buff/debuff or self/other because they're extremely rigid
18:03:32 <monky> invisibility
18:03:37 <monky> (what do Enchanters do)
18:04:11 <Eronarn> having flexibility is good, so we can say for example that vampires are bad at casting haste, even though they're good at casting excruciating wounds
18:04:14 <Eronarn> or what have youi
18:04:15 <OG17> if the opposite of rigid is "vorpal and draining brands have nothing in common" then rigid sounds pretty good
18:04:38 <casmith789> monky: remove projected noise? :( why?
18:04:48 <monky> it's broken
18:05:15 <casmith789> so don't remove the concept
18:05:23 <Eronarn> rigid is dumb and will always be dumb, there's only some 10 spells that there's even any disagreement on
18:05:33 <OG17> if you want vampires bad at haste and good at pain brand then give them bad charms and good necro
18:06:02 <Eronarn> ending up with those spells in awkward places just because we want a clear dividing line is stupid because we don't have a clear dividing line for any of the other schools (and have moved some spells around in schools without changing their mechanics at all)
18:06:13 <Eronarn> (lol charms/hexes sure blade)
18:06:17 <OG17> what are you talking about
18:06:23 <OG17> what schools aren't clearly divided
18:06:35 <OG17> sticks to snakes!!
18:06:38 <monky> charms/hexes Invis
18:06:41 <casmith789> stoneskin is earth/tmut
18:06:57 <casmith789> while clearly being an enchantment
18:07:00 <OG17> why wouldn't it be?
18:07:07 <OG17> it's skin that's stone
18:07:15 <OG17> oh sorry it's clearly an enchantment
18:07:18 <casmith789> exactly, ench/tmut aren't clearly divided
18:07:36 <OG17> what how
18:07:47 <OG17> that's what tmut does, that's what all tmut does
18:08:00 <casmith789> like evaporate right
18:08:04 <OG17> yes
18:08:22 <OG17> also all the forms that are just like stoneskin without having anything in common with enchantments
18:08:56 <casmith789> no, apart from the enchantment -> cast buff on yourself thing
18:09:10 <OG17> is spider form a buff too
18:09:40 <monky> for what it's worth, I don't like Conj, Charms, and Summ because they're conceputally dull.  Necro, Tmut, elemental schools are good; Tloc is borderline
18:10:00 <monky> by Charms I mean Ench
18:10:18 <monky> (if I had my way I'd remove them and reflavour all the spells)
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18:13:14 <OG17> casmith I get what you're saying with tmut but shapeshifting spells have their own school and it doesn't make much sense to tack charms onto all of them
18:13:28 <OG17> in game context it's very defined
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18:15:50 <casmith789> all tmut spells are well defined, except evap/fulsome which are just tacked on
18:15:53 <OG17> flavorwise charms is questionable there anyway, tmut works fine alone
18:16:10 <OG17> fulsome turns a guy into a potion and evap turns a potion into... a hot potion
18:16:24 <casmith789> :P
18:16:29 <casmith789> not the same flavour
18:17:03 <OG17> fulsome works if you figure it's making a bottle too
18:17:04 <CIA-113> 03kilobyte * r227598c13357 10/crawl-ref/source/ (dungeon.cc dungeon.h terrain.cc terrain.h): Move a function from dungeon.cc.
18:17:15 <CIA-113> 03kilobyte * r461cf13dde0a 10/crawl-ref/source/spl-damage.cc: Fix LRD not obeying some checks when destroying walls.
18:18:12 <TGWi> it transmutes potions into clouds
18:18:16 <TGWi> arguably
18:19:15 <casmith789> what about tukima's dance
18:19:32 <casmith789> these can be argued to be tmut and ench respectively but the cut isn't clear
18:20:04 <OG17> you're enchanting your sword to hit your enemies
18:20:10 <OG17> (charms)
18:20:17 <OG17> how could that be tmut
18:21:09 <casmith789> it involves a material which subsequently transforms into something with different properties
18:21:18 <kilobyte> you're enchanting moisture in the air to cool down, crystallize, form a spike, gain velocity and spear an enemy
18:21:36 <OG17> it turns into the same sword that magically flies around
18:21:58 <OG17> unified theory of magic...
18:22:08 <casmith789> like the same blood in the fulsome, or the same potion of poison is just sprayed around
18:22:27 <TGWi> um I don't think the gaseous form of blood is flame
18:22:35 <TGWi> maybe it's magic
18:22:42 <TGWi> and evaporate isn't just literal evaporation
18:22:47 <OG17> fulsome doesn't make blood potions, it makes potions out of corpses that aren't filled with said potion
18:22:53 <OG17> and presumably bottles
18:22:54 <TGWi> what if it were a spell
18:23:04 <Eronarn> what if this conversation is dumb as hell
18:23:24 <OG17> what if tukima'd weapons ran around on little cartoon legs
18:24:23 <Eronarn> uh that sounds like something a tilesuser would say
18:24:34 <Eronarn> is there something you're not telling us OG17
18:25:12 <OG17> if tiles has little cartoon legs then I'm going to use tiles
18:25:58 <Eronarn> oh well, i'm going to go try and beat tome. again
18:26:07 <OG17> eronarn, it's good?
18:26:21 <Eronarn> it's okay but has lots of bad design choices (worse than crawl (and crawl is a bad game))
18:27:19 <Eronarn> e.g. earlier a unique hit me for >900 damage in one hit when i had 650 max life
18:27:36 <Eronarn> said unique can also stun (like crawl paralysis)
18:33:33 <monky> rupert vs defe
18:35:05 <Eronarn> monky: i think even if you ran into rupert early he couldn't kill you in a single hit before berserking
18:35:27 <Eronarn> (TOME has berserk too, this wasn't a berserk monster)
18:36:21 <Eronarn> ((a berserk monster hit me for 1100 in one round on a character with much better defensive stats... and it did that as part of a charge (so it got to move from edge of LOS to next to me in one turn))
18:36:38 <Eronarn> TOME: not a fair game
18:36:44 <casmith789> is it ascii based?
18:36:57 <Eronarn> the default is tiles but you can change it to ascii but the ascii looks awful so no
18:37:29 <TGWi> heretic
18:37:54 <casmith789> on any server?
18:38:04 <Eronarn> TGWi: it's not real ascii, it's ascii-tiles
18:38:10 <OG17> oh yuck
18:38:10 <Eronarn> and it looks *awful*
18:38:15 <casmith789> oh :/
18:38:48 <Eronarn> like light-green-hash-on-green-highlight: 'tree'
18:38:58 <Eronarn> green highlight: 'grass'
18:39:07 <Eronarn> enjoy going blind in the opening dungeon
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19:45:09 <CIA-113> 03kilobyte * rab77b3191807 10/crawl-ref/source/ (27 files): Give all ASSERT(false) proper messages.
19:45:11 <CIA-113> 03kilobyte * r78595a95c0f6 10/crawl-ref/source/ (21 files): Convert ASSERT(!"foo") to die("foo").
19:45:16 <CIA-113> 03kilobyte * ra764049175ea 10/crawl-ref/source/ (dbg-asrt.cc debug.h): Mention the file and line no in die().
19:45:19 <CIA-113> 03kilobyte * r7971002b54b7 10/crawl-ref/source/ (18 files): A function die() that does the equivalent of ASSERT(!"foo") but always works.
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21:50:20 <stabwound> anyone played caves of qud?
21:50:22 <stabwound> looks interesting
22:09:49 <Ashenzari> Sure Blade and Tukima's Dance should not be Hexes. (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3193) by elliptic
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23:01:43 <due> hooray rain
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