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01:53:46 <due> or thumbs, as the case might be
01:53:54 <due> however I've only two of these so paperclips serve a better purpose
02:00:51 <CIA-113> 03greensnark * r1d9499f645e9 10/crawl-ref/source/noise.h: Fix bad type to noise_intensity_millis causing overflow.
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02:37:26 <CIA-113> 03greensnark * rff0082f0597a 10/crawl-ref/source/shout.cc: Don't loop for cascading noises in apply_noises.
02:47:22 <Gretell> murphyslaw (L17 KoAr) ASSERT(m.mid > 0) in 'tags.cc' at line 2954 failed. (Crypt:1)
02:47:34 <Gretell> murphyslaw (L17 KoAr) ASSERT(m.mid > 0) in 'tags.cc' at line 2954 failed. (Crypt:1)
02:47:34 <due> It does interest me that we'r still getting those asserts.
02:47:37 <due> @??laboratory rat
02:47:38 <Gretell> parasitic laboratory rat (04r) | Speed: 9-17 | HD: 5 | Health: 17-39 | AC/EV: 5/5 | Damage: 905(vampiric) | Flags: evil, !sil | Res: 06magic(16) | Chunks: clean/none/unknown | XP: 126 | Sp: blink / fire breath (3d10) / mephitic cloud / shock (d11).
02:47:42 <Gretell> murphyslaw (L17 KoAr) ASSERT(m.mid > 0) in 'tags.cc' at line 2954 failed. (Crypt:1)
02:50:51 <sorear> due: 1. that's not vault defined?  2. Gretell has substring matches now?
02:51:09 <Gretell> murphyslaw (L17 KoAr) ASSERT(m.mid > 0) in 'tags.cc' at line 2954 failed. (Crypt:1)
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02:53:40 <due> sorear: laboratory rats  aren't any longer, i codified them as actual monsters
02:54:00 <due> sorear: it's not a substring match, it just returns a random laboratory rat when the adjective is undefined
02:54:08 <due> @??fiery laboratory rat
02:54:09 <Gretell> fiery laboratory rat (05r) | Speed: 12 | HD: 5 | Health: 16-38 | AC/EV: 5/5 | Damage: 904(fire:5-9) | Flags: !sil | Res: 06magic(16), 04fire+++ | Chunks: clean/none/unknown | XP: 121 | Sp: fire breath (3d10).
02:54:17 <due> @??parasitic laboratory rat
02:54:17 <Gretell> parasitic laboratory rat (04r) | Speed: 12 | HD: 5 | Health: 16-38 | AC/EV: 5/5 | Damage: 905(vampiric) | Flags: evil | Res: 06magic(16) | Chunks: clean/none/unknown | XP: 121.
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03:07:05 <Gretell> clouded (L27 NaEE) ASSERT(found) in 'dungeon.cc' at line 7101 failed. (Hell)
03:07:43 <st_> argh it crashed when I exited the abyss, that took forever :<
03:08:08 <due> nice
03:08:11 <Zaba> moin
03:08:28 <due> "Exiting abyss" problem with stairs again?
03:08:39 <Zaba> ouch, that's naughty
03:08:54 <st_> it's probably because I abyss myself in the vestibule
03:08:59 <Zaba> yes
03:09:01 <monky> yeah there are no stairs in there
03:09:15 <st_> am I fucked then?
03:09:31 <monky> oh and no stone arches either
03:09:34 <Zaba> fucked in what sense?
03:09:49 <st_> that I can't continue my game until it's fixed
03:10:03 <Zaba> probably
03:10:35 <st_> oh well I can scum abyss at least
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03:13:37 <Zaba> I know several ways to fix that, but I'd have to figure out what's the problem in this specific case first
03:13:43 * Zaba yawns
03:14:19 <Zaba> but yeah, it's when you return from abyss into vestibule
03:14:33 <due> Why doens't it just randomly place you on the level?
03:14:44 <Zaba> because it's a whole-level vault
03:14:45 <st_> it did a while ago
03:14:58 <Zaba> the easiest fix would be to remove the restriction of not placing the player in vaults
03:15:19 <due> ah yes
03:15:46 <Zaba> I think I'll do that, and see if anybody ever complains about hypothetical problems caused by that.
03:16:04 <st_> no need to post a mantis issue then?
03:16:15 <Zaba> no
03:20:52 <CIA-113> 03zaba * r3fe7f3a56847 10/crawl-ref/source/dungeon.cc: In the third pass of dgn_find_nearby_stair, allow placing the player in vaults.
03:21:10 <st_> Zaba: thanks
03:21:22 <Zaba> now somebody should update cdo, I guess
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03:25:20 <Zaba> that is, however, a workaround, because returning from abyss should place you on an exit gateway
03:26:07 <Zaba> or well.  The hell with it.
03:27:23 <CIA-113> 03kilobyte * r310eb4a0d605 10/crawl-ref/source/ (10 files in 2 dirs): s/noreturn/NORETURN/ to unbreak Windows builds.
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03:37:20 <Keskitalo> yay more gnoll camp love
03:37:21 <Henzell> Keskitalo: You have 3 messages. Use !messages to read them.
03:37:26 <Keskitalo> !messages
03:37:27 <Henzell> (1/3) greensnark said (3d 15h 56m 8s ago): I got your gnoll shaman vault <3
03:37:30 <Keskitalo> !messages
03:37:30 <Henzell> (1/2) greensnark said (3d 15h 47m 11s ago): Gnoll serial vault and Sewer on same level in fact. Almost missed the Sewer :)
03:37:32 <Keskitalo> !messages
03:37:32 <Henzell> (1/1) due said (10h 27m 17s ago): What about "Summon Swamp" instead of "Summon Hydra"? It's a slightly delayed, area-affecting spell that replaces (temporarily) some features with "swamp". You are guaranteed a hydra or a swamp dragon, but they are limited to the "swamp" area.
03:38:33 <Keskitalo> due: I'd love a water monster summoning spell like that, but replacing the hydra summon, probably not. I still need to test the spells. :P
03:38:52 <due> :)
03:39:23 <due> I explained my thought and reasons behind it a bit more clearly on the wiki, but I'm still undecided.
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03:41:20 <due> hi galehar
03:41:40 <galehar> hi
03:41:50 <due> Keskitalo: I love the idea of an area summoning spell though and will implement it in some form.
03:43:28 <Zaba> greensnark, what's FLOOR_RESERVED for and can it go?
03:43:52 <due> Keskitalo: Swamp-based, Shoals-based, Lair-based... it could even be a random area every time!
03:46:00 <Keskitalo> greensnark hydra hater ;_;
03:46:21 <Zaba> greensnark, actually, what are all those DNGN_*_RESERVED features?
03:46:39 <greensnark> Keskitalo: I thought it was a joke spell!
03:46:55 <greensnark> Zaba: I think they're placeholders maybe
03:47:08 <greensnark> Keskitalo: Actually summoning is a little boring at the high end
03:47:17 <Zaba> do we need them?
03:47:22 <Keskitalo> Yeah, I saw you comment on the only-evil high-end summoning spells.
03:47:25 <greensnark> So summon hydras is not a bad idea :P
03:47:50 <Keskitalo> greensnark: Also, the hook is that the hydra would be very short-lived, so that TSO's summonming extension would combo with it nicely.
03:47:53 <greensnark> Zaba: Unsure, but I think it's best to leave them alone
03:48:00 <Zaba> okay
03:48:14 <greensnark> Keskitalo: What level spell would this be?
03:48:34 <greensnark> I don't remember what happened to summon ugly things... do you get a whole bunch or jus one ugly thing
03:48:47 <Keskitalo> greensnark: Right now in RangerC's patch is L7, which sounds about right to me. I still haven't tested it yet.
03:48:52 <Keskitalo> greensnark: L6, one ugly thing
03:49:00 <greensnark> Keskitalo: Oh, L7 sounds pretty reasonable
03:49:02 <Keskitalo> greensnark: speaking of which
03:49:13 <due> My minor quibble which I have been expressing in a major way (sorry, I am becoming fixated when it really doesn't bother me) is that I don't think an existing monster now being summonable is a particularly interesting or unique facet.
03:49:14 <greensnark> In fact at L7 it probably wouldn't even need to be short-lived
03:49:35 <due> I hope that I have adequately expressed this! And if not before, hopefully now.
03:49:36 <Keskitalo> greensnark: ugly things should scan the resistances of their enemies and change colour accordingly; and summon ugly thing should do this when cast
03:49:53 <Keskitalo> due: I hear that, but.. it's hydras! :D Sorry, I can't let go.
03:50:00 <kilobyte> "Summon Swamp"?  You mean, "Summon Abyss"?  Let's see if we've seen it before...
03:50:02 <Keskitalo> OTOH I'm not very excited about Summon Dragon.
03:50:09 <due> kilobyte: The mechanism is completely differnet :p
03:50:18 <greensnark> due: On the other hand, players like to summon stuff they know will curbstomp the bad guys. Familiarity can be pretty powerful too :)
03:50:24 <Keskitalo> greensnark: That would hopefully give summon ugly thing a niche: it'd adapt to your opposition
03:50:41 <due> Keskitalo: Then delete an old boring summoning spell to compensate ;)
03:50:46 <Keskitalo> right now it's regarded as underpowered, but quite possibly it's just eclipsed by Haunt and stuff.
03:50:57 <Keskitalo> due: Perhaps!
03:51:29 <Keskitalo> I was also thinking that Hydra and Dragon don't need to be in the Vehumet books.
03:51:34 <due> kilobyte: Fixed-area, monsters are confined to that area. There's a delay in the actual effect, etc. So yes, it's like a player-cast corruption but the effect and flavour are totally different.
03:52:00 <due> And it's not permanent, of course.
03:54:32 <Keskitalo> ??monster manual
03:54:32 <Henzell> monster manual[1/2]: Summon Small Mammals - Sticks to Snakes - Call Canine Familiar - Tame Beasts - Dragon Form
03:54:39 <Keskitalo> ??book of beasts
03:54:40 <Henzell> I don't have a page labeled book_of_beasts in my learndb.
03:56:59 <due> Monster Manual is gone, no?
03:57:06 <due> Or is it just Tame Beasts?
04:02:22 <kilobyte> due: commit a391f003b48056087c5972147ec86f733ec5726a
04:02:44 <kilobyte> if you feel like that, "git revert" is ----> that way
04:03:00 <due> Ah, book of beasts.
04:03:16 <due> No, I'm cool with it being gone.
04:03:35 <due> Dragon form is silly, Call Canine Familiar got moved to one of the starting books, and Tame Beasts was gone, so that left... what? Spammals and Sticks to snakes.
04:04:19 <due> Why was it "Monster Manual" anyway? "Book of Beasts" sounds more interesting and is thematically in line with our other books. ):
04:05:19 <kilobyte> right
04:05:23 <due> Keskitalo: RangerC did a breakdown of high level summons!
04:06:42 <Keskitalo> MarvinPA: Thanks for the wiki page cleanup
04:06:50 <Keskitalo> due: Cool, where?
04:06:56 <due> https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:magic:summoning:new_spells#breakdown_of_high_level_summons
04:07:05 <due> It is an *excelent* explanation. Hooray for peoplewho sit down and do writeups!
04:07:22 <Keskitalo> will read!
04:07:39 <due> The write-up on Malign Gateway makes my heart sing ;)
04:07:55 <Keskitalo> It sounds that spell is really succesful.
04:08:19 <Keskitalo> Translating Crawl: I'd love a Finnish translation now that I have offspring :D
04:10:37 <due> Keskitalo: But how would you cope with the monster list having to be constantly trimmed for all your long words? ;)
04:10:46 <st_> I don't really agree that SHT is "overpowered"
04:11:08 <due> st_: It really depends on the circumstances.
04:11:18 <due> @??tentacled monstrosity
04:11:18 <Gretell> tentacled monstrosity (03X) | Speed: 9 | HD: 25 | Health: 100-160 | AC/EV: 5/5 | Damage: 22, 17, 13 | Flags: 05demonic, amphibious, see invisible | Res: 06magic(166), 05fire, 02cold, 10elec++, 03poison | XP: 2127.
04:11:21 <due> @??large abomination
04:11:22 <Gretell> large abomination (13X) | Speed: 6-12 | HD: 9 | Health: 23-66 | AC/EV: 0/0 | Damage: 40 | Flags: 05demonic | Res: 06magic(102) | XP: 520.
04:11:41 <st_> getting tentacled monstrosities is quite rare with average power
04:11:42 <due> The comparison between them is basically puny. You either get some cannon fodder (basically) or a slightly overpowered threat.
04:12:09 <due> Yeah, but the large abominations aren't really powerful enough in a lot of instances.
04:12:15 <due> !hs char=vpwz
04:12:18 <Sequell> 14. bookofjude the Convoker (L18 VpWz), worshipper of Sif Muna, hit from afar by a stone giant (large rock) on Vault:7 on 2009-09-27, with 218103 points after 110302 turns and 10:19:57.
04:12:26 <due> I was using SHT in vaults and it wasn't really enough.
04:15:28 <Keskitalo> Well, you want the monstrosities, and abominations provide some cover.
04:24:32 <Keskitalo> My experience with SHT is that you don't really need anything else.. and Haunt is just as good.
04:25:44 <due> Perhaps I didn't have the MP to spam it... I ws trying to use it pretty early.
04:26:14 <Keskitalo> Well, I had Vehumet..
04:26:37 <due> Ah, yeah.
04:26:46 <due> I don't think Haunt existed back tthen. I should start a new summoner!
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04:28:38 <Keskitalo> Hmm, I might have had Kiku!
04:29:42 <Keskitalo> !lg * DSSu
04:29:42 <Sequell> 576. Manjusri the Caller (L1 DSSu), got out of the dungeon alive. on 2010-12-23, with 45 points after 312 turns and 0:01:39.
04:29:47 <Keskitalo> !lg DSSu
04:29:48 <Sequell> 6. Keskitalo the Thanatomancer (L27 DSSu), worshipper of Kikubaaqudgha, escaped with the Orb and 15 runes on 2010-08-11, with 9525218 points after 172542 turns and 16:29:00.
04:29:57 <Keskitalo> Yeah, I remember it all wrong I guess! :)
04:30:31 <due> :)
04:30:43 <due> hi coolio!
04:30:46 <Gretell> dazzle (L17 DSIE) ASSERT(m.mid > 0) in 'tags.cc' at line 2954 failed. (Elf:3)
04:30:55 <coolio_mc> oh hello
04:31:33 <Gretell> dazzle (L17 DSIE) ASSERT(m.mid > 0) in 'tags.cc' at line 2954 failed. (Elf:3)
04:31:56 <Gretell> dazzle (L17 DSIE) ASSERT(m.mid > 0) in 'tags.cc' at line 2954 failed. (Elf:3)
04:32:04 <Keskitalo> hi coolio_mc !
04:32:07 <Gretell> dazzle (L17 DSIE) ASSERT(m.mid > 0) in 'tags.cc' at line 2954 failed. (Elf:3)
04:32:15 <Gretell> dazzle (L17 DSIE) ASSERT(m.mid > 0) in 'tags.cc' at line 2954 failed. (Elf:3)
04:32:21 <Keskitalo> Well, it does look like I only had spammals, Haunt, SHT and butterflies memorized.
04:35:14 <Keskitalo> diapers now!
04:46:34 <CIA-113> 03kilobyte 07ench-split * re4101cbae54b 10/crawl-ref/source/ (ng-setup.cc spl-data.h): Move all branding spells to Chrm, Confusing Touch to Hex.
04:46:35 <CIA-113> 03kilobyte 07ench-split * r9c680bf8671c 10/crawl-ref/source/book-data.h: Make the book of Charms pure Hex.
04:46:40 <CIA-113> 03kilobyte 07ench-split * r805f25a52f04 10/crawl-ref/source/ (12 files in 5 dirs): Tukima's Vorpal Blade is pining for the fjords.
04:46:41 <CIA-113> 03kilobyte 07ench-split * rd95836431e41 10/crawl-ref/source/ (enum.h itemname.cc ng-setup.cc ng-wanderer.cc spl-book.cc): s/Book of Charms/book of Maledictions/ as it's 100% Hex.
04:46:42 <CIA-113> 03kilobyte 07ench-split * r8c03b425edd7 10/crawl-ref/source/tags.cc: Handle Ash's reskilling in the ench split save compat code.
04:46:46 <CIA-113> 03kilobyte 07ench-split * r2029ffc6c4a4 10/crawl-ref/source/ (book-data.h enum.h itemname.cc spl-book.cc): Book of Tukima is an ex-book.
04:48:09 <kilobyte> !lm dazzle type=crash -log
04:48:10 <Sequell> 16. dazzle, XL17 DSIE, T:50995 (milestone): http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/dazzle/crash-dazzle-20110107-103215.txt
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04:50:37 <due> hi mu
04:54:04 <due> coolio_mc: loved the rat tiles, btw. :D
04:55:14 <due> coolio_mc: Are you around? I may throw "eventual tile needs" at you; ootehrwise, I can put them on the wiki?
04:56:21 <due> To the wiki!
04:59:22 <dazzle> Hello, guys
04:59:32 <dazzle> Should I just C-q my character on CDO?
04:59:38 <dazzle> The one that's stuck.
05:01:56 <galehar> is there any full size level (ie 80x70)?
05:02:06 <galehar> or an easy way to create one in wizmode?
05:02:52 <st_> vestibule or tomb:3 might be, not certain
05:03:02 <st_> or one of the tomb maps
05:03:18 <kilobyte> dazzle: do you recall any monster with a rare spawning ability on the level you're returning to?
05:03:32 <Gretell> Unstable branch on CDO updated to: 0.8.0-a0-4369-g310eb4a (31.29)
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05:09:17 <Keskitalo> kilobyte: Love the ench-split work!
05:10:13 <dazzle> kilobyte: Nope. I can scout the level and seek for one, though, I suppose
05:10:24 <dazzle> Oh, nevermind.
05:10:44 <kilobyte> it's an human
05:11:02 <kilobyte> I'll look if I can find where it did came from
05:11:07 <dazzle> hmm
05:11:07 <Mu_> my sprint map is full size if that works
05:11:22 <Keskitalo> dpeg: Did you get a chance to see the Elly ally piety hit proposal? RangerC is promising a patch and I think it'd be great; Fedhas piety cost for letting mushrooms/plants get killed works really well in my experience.
05:11:27 <Gretell> dazzle (L17 DSIE) ASSERT(m.mid > 0) in 'tags.cc' at line 3004 failed. (Elf:3)
05:11:41 <kilobyte> to continue your game, we could either add a shim, but that's a bad idea without finding the cause.  Easier to just delete the level.
05:12:12 <dazzle> Sure, if you can do that :D I knew that stuff like this might happen when I decided to play trunk thuogh
05:13:49 <Keskitalo> Hey, I got mail from the usability testing course! We need a description of our needs for next Wednesday. I guess I'll shoot some mail soon on crd.
05:14:28 <Gretell> dazzle (L17 DSIE) ASSERT(m.mid > 0) in 'tags.cc' at line 3004 failed. (Elf:3)
05:14:30 <dpeg> hi all
05:15:10 <dpeg> Keskitalo: no, didn't see that proposal. On the wiki or here?
05:15:31 <dpeg> Also, RangerC volounteered for DG patch <3 <3 <3
05:15:38 <kilobyte> Napkin: could you please ./crawl --edit-save /var/lib/dgamelaunch/crawl-svn-310eb4a/saves/dazzle-2002.cs rm 03d
05:16:12 <Napkin> latest crawl binary is ok?
05:16:14 <kilobyte> (it's owned by dgl:crawl mode 644)
05:16:23 <greensnark> kilobyte: Do we have a copy of the save, first?
05:16:25 <kilobyte> any semi-modern will do
05:16:32 <kilobyte> greensnark: I took it
05:16:48 <greensnark> Can I take a look at it
05:17:00 <Napkin> done, kilobyte
05:17:02 <greensnark> The monster population may show how we have a zero-mid monster
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05:17:55 <Gretell> dazzle (L17 DSIE) ASSERT(levels_seen <= (unsigned long) branches[branch].depth) in 'place-info.cc' at line 55 failed. (Elf:3)
05:18:23 <dazzle> :(
05:18:27 <Napkin> (and that ownership/chmod is on purpose ;))
05:18:34 <kilobyte> http://angband.pl/tmp/dazzle-2002.cs (didn't bother opening a mantis item)
05:18:57 <kilobyte> hrm, now this assert is a new thing... and breaks recreating levels
05:19:30 <kilobyte> beh, I'll open one
05:19:40 <Keskitalo> dpeg: https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:god:elyvilon#ally_play
05:21:55 <dpeg> Keskitalo: RangerC == Elly ??
05:23:03 <Keskitalo> Elly == Elyvilon :)
05:23:56 <Gretell> dazzle (L17 DSIE) ASSERT(levels_seen <= (unsigned long) branches[branch].depth) in 'place-info.cc' at line 55 failed. (Elf:3)
05:24:17 <Ashenzari> another mid crash (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3167) by KiloByte
05:24:41 <dpeg> ah :)
05:24:56 <dpeg> How hard would it be to change good god piety gain from waiting to exploring?
05:26:21 <Zaba> what is that place-info.cc assert?
05:27:05 <kilobyte> Zaba: we deleted the level file to let Crawl recreate it, but apparently this now triggers this assert
05:27:30 <Zaba> ah.  Yes, I think I understand it now..
05:27:44 <Zaba> something should decrement levels_seen when removing a level
05:27:56 <kilobyte> BTW, that human was spawned by Kirke
05:28:54 <dazzle> I remember blasting her to oblivion.
05:29:32 <Zaba> kilobyte, how is removal of levels done?
05:30:34 <due> kilobyte: Ahhh
05:30:39 <due> kilobyte: Aren't those created manually?
05:30:53 <due> kilobyte: The hogs-to-humans reversion had some oddities.
05:32:21 <kilobyte> Zaba: ./crawl --edit-save JoeBlows rm 03d
05:32:24 <TGWi> re: conversation earlier about where to put summon dragon
05:32:25 <kilobyte> (for Elf 3)
05:32:29 <TGWi> book of the dragon is a logical place
05:32:29 <TGWi> :P
05:36:45 <Zaba> kilobyte, ah, hmm.. I guess it'd be pretty hard to adjust levels_seen automatically when doing that?
05:36:56 <dpeg> TGWi: some summon book and dragon, yes
05:37:44 <kilobyte> we still use the old encoding which is hard to read... it made sense for separate files in DOS
05:37:44 <Napkin> should i restore the savegame, kilobyte?
05:37:44 <TGWi> it doesn't necessarily need to be in an elemental book (summon butterflies, for example, is not)
05:37:44 <kilobyte> Zaba: yeah, but it's never done in normal games, just as a recovery for broken levels
05:37:44 <due> while everyone's here
05:37:44 <TGWi> s/elemental/school/
05:37:44 <due> is there any aversion to me adding a disable-wizmode ability for wizmode builds?
05:37:44 <Keskitalo> dpeg: regarding books, I said earlier that Hydra and Dragon don't need to be in Vehumet-gifted books
05:37:44 <due> The game would still be marked as "has been wizmode" but when something is broken and fixable with wiz-mode it's annoying to not be able to turn it off again.
05:37:44 <kilobyte> Napkin: the level has a broken monster on it, we'd have to add a save shim to workaround that
05:37:44 <due> (If you turn it on you can't turn it off and you can't continue playing "normally" because every time you die it prompts you, etc.)
05:37:44 <Napkin> well, i'm here - let me know what you decide on
05:37:44 <kilobyte> due: what exactly can be fixed this way?
05:37:44 <Napkin> but this "assert after removing a level" definitely needs to be fixed, right?
05:37:44 <dpeg> Keskitalo: I hope to see the day when Vehumet has nothing to do with summons anymore, so I don't really care.
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05:38:30 -!- The topic of ##crawl-dev is: Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to  ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki | Long stuff to pastebin.ca please | This is walrus appreciation week
05:38:35 <kilobyte> I'd say this would be a can of worms, and people would use "recovery" whenever they get a bad mutation or such
05:38:40 <due> kilobyte: So?
05:39:32 <due> kilobyte: We don't really need to enforce what people do on their own computers; it wouldn't affect server play at all.
05:39:36 <due> It would be mostly undocumented and the only people they'd be cheating if they took advantage of it would be themselves.
05:40:10 <due> Napkin: I'm still seeing lots of "you can UPGRADE! :DDD" messages on the Wiki... is there a way I can hide them?
05:41:30 <kilobyte> due: it's good to have a clear-cut "cheat mode"
05:41:32 <Zaba> I agree with kilobyte, it's a can of bloody worms.  If people learn to use it against serious mistakes, they'll soon start using it to revert minor ones, too
05:41:50 * due shrugs.
05:41:50 <kilobyte> the issue you mentioned is no different from "I didn't know a hydra can kill me in one turn"
05:41:54 <Zaba> "it won't affect server play" is barely a good excuse.  Do we want online and offline games to become completely different experiences?
05:42:11 <due> Zaba: My point is that people who will do this can already do it.
05:42:41 <kilobyte> yes, but having to jump through hoops means they will know there's something wrong with it
05:42:52 <dpeg> due: if you implement this, it's main use for games where we repair bugs and give them back to players. What players do on their is their own business (and we're better off not knowing the details anyway).
05:43:17 <due> dpeg: Well, that's my point. People can and will cheat anyway. This does not make it particularly more difficult nor particularly more easy.
05:43:25 <Napkin> removed, due.
05:43:29 <due> Napkin: <3!
05:43:35 <Napkin> not sure that's such a good idea though...
05:43:53 <kilobyte> almost all bugs we can repair do require actual code changes, so there's no gain on our side...
05:43:53 <Napkin> the solution would be to update
05:43:54 <kilobyte> and there's always gdb
05:43:54 <due> dpeg: But apparently we also need to act as people's consciences as well.
05:44:03 <kilobyte> Napkin: er, you removed the notifications rather than just upgrading? :p
05:44:14 <dpeg> due: yes, we have to care for the souls, even if they're black as charcoal.
05:44:35 <Napkin> yeah, not willing yet to spend a whole day or more to do the 3 updates. wanna help out, kilobyte? ;)
05:44:47 <Gretell> dazzle (L17 DSIE) ASSERT(levels_seen <= (unsigned long) branches[branch].depth) in 'place-info.cc' at line 55 failed. (Elf:3)
05:44:53 <due> ... oops.
05:45:01 <kilobyte> due: the current wizmode rules help telling people that they're not supposed to mess with games
05:45:03 <due> Zaba: hahaha
05:45:26 <kilobyte> Napkin: not a clue about dokuwiki
05:45:31 <due> kilobyte: How does people able to turn it off again once you're turned it on change any of that?
05:45:39 <due> kilobyte: The game would still be marked as wizmode.
05:45:41 <kilobyte> Napkin: and if its upgrades are so bad... that's not a good sign
05:45:44 <Napkin> well, the problem is, as always, the plugins and the local changes.
05:46:03 <due> kilobyte: It would just allow them to continue playing without constantly being prompted to return to life when they die.
05:46:13 <due> (And the other wizmode stuff.)
05:46:14 <kilobyte> due: do you mean, disabling the "you die" prompts?
05:46:17 <Napkin> nah, the only sign is how big the local changes are - and how many plugins have been installed.
05:46:26 <kilobyte> but then, you get them exactly one
05:46:29 <kilobyte> once
05:46:34 <due> kilobyte: No, I mean setting you.wizard=false.
05:46:40 <due> kilobyte: (But storing you.was_wizmode=true
05:47:11 <due> kilobyte: I'm not going to remove the current consequences for enabling Wiz-mode, just allow you to disable access to it again.
05:47:21 <due> (Sorry, was I not clear about this?)
05:47:26 <kilobyte> which affects just the death prompt
05:47:37 <due> And whatever else we decide to implement.
05:47:54 <due> Portal vaults spring to mind
05:50:32 <bhaak> we need an irc "I like it" button in here. I would press the button for the discussion from 10 hours ago :)
05:51:22 <Gretell> dazzle (L17 DSIE) ASSERT(levels_seen <= (unsigned long) branches[branch].depth) in 'place-info.cc' at line 55 failed. (Elf:3)
05:51:41 <CIA-113> 03kilobyte * r4592c2569f37 10/crawl-ref/source/ (mon-death.cc tag-version.h tags.cc): Fix missing mid on Kirke's hog reversion.
05:52:00 <due> Can someone fix dazzle's game again?
05:52:09 <kilobyte> yeah... two ways
05:52:25 <due> I don't know how.
05:52:27 <kilobyte> 1. we could rebuild right now and have Napkin copy back the old file
05:52:29 <dazzle> You'll spend a huge time fixing my game, and I'll certainly die to the next monster :D
05:52:42 <Napkin> @1 - fine by me
05:52:51 <kilobyte> 2. or we could re-allow deleting levels (this assert) and then rebuild
05:52:58 <Napkin> @2 +1
05:53:06 <kilobyte> triggering build
05:53:14 <Napkin> thanks
05:53:33 <dpeg> bhaak: what was it about?
05:53:57 <kilobyte> dazzle: not just your game, others will hit that bug too
05:53:57 -!- TGWi has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
05:54:04 <dazzle> (okay)
05:54:48 <Napkin> kilobyte: http://angband.pl/tmp/dazzle-2002.cs is the one original save?
05:54:49 -!- upsy has joined ##crawl-dev
05:55:38 <bhaak> dpeg: the "we can always agree on NH bashing" and "rather kick squarelos than letting kilobyte go" discussion
05:55:42 <Mu_> i don't really see why you need to turn wizmode off and i say this as someone who cheated and savescummed constantly when i played locally
05:55:46 <dpeg> bhaak: one could copy sections from IRC log and post them somewhere, to be marvelled at as pinnacles of discussion :)
05:55:50 <kilobyte> Napkin: yes
05:55:55 <dpeg> bhaak: hehe
05:56:07 <dpeg> bhaak: I noticed precisely the same thing in normal human talk.
05:56:08 <Napkin> ok, old save is back
05:56:28 <kilobyte> we could use crawl.bash.org :p
05:56:42 <Napkin> :D
05:56:56 <kilobyte> (with bash.org.pl's interface, the one on bash.org is abysmal)
05:56:59 <due> I repeat: the only difference it would have is that you lose access to the & menu, the prompt-on-die thing goes away, and portal vaults don't prompt you for a location (and whatever else gets coded in the future that does stuff with wizard mode). The *WIZARD*/negative scoring/lack of highscore/etc, etc, etc, would remain as such.
05:57:12 <dpeg> I've read a little bit through the TOME forum and it was surprisingly friendly to Crawl.
05:57:14 <Gretell> Unstable branch on CDO updated to: 0.8.0-a0-4370-g4592c25 (31.30)
05:57:29 <due> Anyway, I don't care enough about it to argue it any more :D
05:57:39 <dpeg> due: don't worry. The idea is decent, but not urgent.
05:57:40 <bhaak> ofc you need twitter and facebook integration
05:57:40 <Napkin> try again, dazzle?
05:57:51 <due> bhaak: That's  coming in tiles!
05:58:09 <dazzle> success
05:58:11 <dpeg> "Tweet your YASD as soon as it occurs."
05:58:22 <dazzle> So thanks :)
05:58:30 -!- dazzle has left ##crawl-dev
05:59:44 <kilobyte> bhaak: if there's twitter and facebook, there must be AdBlock to nuke requests to {facebook,fbcdn}.{com,net}
06:00:00 <kilobyte> dpeg: as in, Henzell?
06:00:13 <bhaak> dpeg: http://twitter.com/#!/demogorgonbot
06:00:29 <bhaak> due: for the not public server games? why only in tiles?
06:00:52 <due> bhaak: It's a reference to the silly April Fools day joke we pulled ):
06:00:54 <due> Well, I pulled.
06:01:07 <Keskitalo> ummm... anyone seen this before? http://crawl.proboards.com/index.cgi
06:01:19 <bhaak> due: ah :-) but you could do it for the public server games nevertheless
06:01:39 <dpeg> Keskitalo: no
06:01:47 <due> Keskitalo: hm, no
06:01:54 <due> Keskitalo: it's... somehwat active?
06:02:09 <dpeg> Keskitalo: see the message at the top
06:02:20 <Keskitalo> last posts on oct 2010
06:02:24 <Keskitalo> dpeg: yeah, and the link goes nowhere
06:02:25 <due> ah
06:02:31 <Keskitalo> well, toa personal webpage
06:02:31 <due> Lots of spam
06:03:23 <dpeg> Store that will buy items?
06:03:25 <dpeg> « Thread Started on Mar 18, 2005, 3:06pm »
06:03:50 <dpeg> Is there any chance of getting a store that will buy items from the player added to CRAWL?
06:03:53 <dpeg> Selling the loot I find is really part of the fun for me playing these types of games.
06:03:54 <Mu_> haha
06:04:19 <Mu_> some things never change? :p
06:04:36 <dpeg> http://crawl.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=generaldev&action=display&thread=119
06:04:40 <dpeg> there is a comment by Erik
06:04:46 <due> Ooh, really?
06:04:51 <dpeg> (Who hits the nail on the head, of course.)
06:05:18 <due> 2005--when did DCSS form?
06:05:56 <due> Also, is nat lanza still around or does smoeone else handle c-r-d/c-r-c moderation?
06:06:41 <dpeg> I cannot answer either question :)
06:07:13 <due> "need to know -- you don't need to know"
06:07:19 <due> "if I told you, I'd have to kill you"
06:07:20 <due> :D
06:07:27 <due> spyleg!
06:08:00 <dpeg> Translations is also an evergreen.
06:08:29 <bhaak> link?
06:08:33 <dpeg> ^
06:08:37 <dpeg> same forum
06:08:45 <dpeg> people are always asking about translations
06:09:02 <bhaak> are they? :)
06:09:38 <bhaak> I didn't see a lot of questions about translations for nethack in the past in rgrn. Crawl seems to have more translation-wanting users
06:10:04 <dpeg> bhaak: we've been asked for/about French, Spanish, Chinese so far.
06:10:59 <due> Possibly because Crawl has a more active Tiles/Windows development and therefore a higher visibiltiy.
06:11:04 <dpeg> Darshan has posted on this forum too :) Haha, he is so old :P
06:11:58 <due> greensnark: You left your walker parked out front :o
06:13:41 <Napkin> lots of spam in that forum though
06:14:29 <bhaak> did I already talk about my FR regarding comparison of weapons?
06:15:21 <dpeg> bhaak: no?
06:15:34 <dpeg> Napkin: it was abandoned in 2005 or 2006.
06:16:28 <Napkin> newest topic is from August 2010 though ;)
06:16:34 <dpeg> Napkin: link?
06:16:39 <Napkin> but yeah, abandoned still
06:16:47 <Napkin> click on "new topics" in the top bar
06:17:12 <dpeg> already closed the tab :)
06:17:21 <Napkin> http://crawl.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=help&action=display&thread=351
06:17:21 <bhaak> I often have the need to compare weapons. A summary or table of weapon with their properties would be cool
06:18:02 <dpeg> bhaak: interestingly, someone very recently proposed weapon comparison in a table (like we do with spells) on the forum. I think this might actually go somewhere.
06:18:50 <dpeg> Napkin: someone should probably add a message there about DCSS and CDO etc.
06:20:08 <bhaak> dpeg: cool, maybe you get it in dcss before I'll put it in un :)
06:20:59 <dpeg> It's not a 0.8 target.
06:21:47 <Zaba> kilobyte, is there any reason why level_id::current().describe() can't be used as a chunk name for saves?
06:22:44 <kilobyte> Zaba: currently chunk names are limited to 4 characters since they were meant to just pack the multiple files together, but that's not a bad idea
06:23:16 <Zaba> kilobyte, I see... how hard would it be to raise the limit?
06:25:45 <Napkin> http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/forum/65262-25-crawl-forum-launched
06:26:56 <CIA-113> 03kilobyte * r25929773cf6d 10/crawl-ref/source/ (mon-act.cc mon-behv.cc mon-pathfind.cc): Give monsters AI boosts when you're under Ashenzari penance.
06:26:57 <greensnark> dpeg: What did I post? I don't recall
06:27:06 <greensnark> I remember the proboards forum, someone called Alex Korol started it
06:28:30 <Napkin> alex.korol@gmail.com probably still exists
06:28:38 <greensnark> galehar: For your crash, you may be modifying the data structure and invalidating the iterator
06:28:49 <Napkin> I could mail him.. maybe he still has login to that old board
06:29:21 <kilobyte> Zaba: currently it's a fixed 4 byte field, we'd need to add marshalling of strings to package::{read,write}_directory()
06:29:35 <dpeg> greensnark: you advertised your mazewest page in Alex's link collection.
06:29:54 <greensnark> galehar: You are in fact modifying the map while iterating over it, which invokes undefined behaviour
06:29:58 <dpeg> nothing to be ashamed about after six years :)
06:30:05 <greensnark> dpeg: No way, I never advertise :P
06:30:15 <Zaba> kilobyte, can marshallString be used for that? (sorry, I'm completely unaware of how package.cc code works :P)
06:30:15 <greensnark> Someone else might have posted the link
06:31:02 <dpeg> greensnark: you praised Alex's link collection and shyly added yours. Better?
06:31:11 * greensnark slaps dpeg with a trout.
06:31:15 * greensnark does not proselytize.
06:31:18 <kilobyte> Zaba: not directly, but it's the same concept
06:31:26 <due> chiark.greenend.org.uk -- why is that  domain familiar?
06:31:34 <Keskitalo> according to this banner, Darshan's page still gets over 1 million views per week!
06:31:37 <Keskitalo> And it's only Friday!
06:31:45 <greensnark> :'(
06:31:57 <Napkin> !coffee greensnark
06:31:57 * Henzell hands greensnark a mug of black coffee, brewed by Kikubaaqudgha.
06:32:03 <greensnark> Ahh, much better
06:32:11 <greensnark> Kiku really knows how to brew cup of joe
06:32:16 <Napkin> :)
06:32:32 <dpeg> After eating too many green peas, the Greenpeace evergreen pees into the snow.
06:33:03 <dpeg> kilobyte: nice Ash penance effect
06:33:08 <dpeg> kilobyte: also used for wrath?
06:33:49 <kilobyte> just wrath, only a few gods have a penance for worshippers
06:33:57 <syllogism> now add some monster (giant orange brain) that boosts monster AI
06:34:13 <dpeg> syllogism: interesting idea
06:34:50 <kilobyte> ??ashenzari wrath
06:34:50 <Henzell> wrath[1/1]: Lets monsters know the colour of your underwear.  Due to criminally lazy devs, nothing more at the moment.
06:35:04 <due> How is monster AI boosted?
06:35:44 <greensnark> Control of the monster is handed over to the RNG
06:35:47 <kilobyte> they know the map better, never forget you, have a clue where you are when invis
06:35:57 <greensnark> Ah
06:36:03 <dpeg> very nice
06:36:12 <dpeg> because it is sort of the opposite of normal Ash play
06:37:07 <kilobyte> too subtle probably... we could use the full-blown ZotDef rules of monsters infallibly homing towards their target, but this might lead to degenerate play where you sit at a choke point
06:37:34 <kilobyte> so here they don't wake up unless they already are tracking you
06:38:14 <kilobyte> with yesterday's noise goodies greensnark coded, they could get a boost there too
06:38:53 <greensnark> They could guess noise sources accurately all the time
06:38:57 <dpeg> bhaak is actually playing Crawl. Who's going to save Nethack from untimely death?
06:39:11 <Keskitalo> Ooh, the new menu icons from Denzi look nice
06:39:11 <greensnark> But I'm pretty sure players only notice degenerate behaviour from the noise system, not such subtleties
06:39:31 <greensnark> dpeg: Let's go play some UnNH
06:39:37 <kilobyte> the Shield of the Gong is abusable too
06:40:33 <dpeg> greensnark: no time!
06:40:34 <kilobyte> noise level of 40!
06:40:47 -!- galehar has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
06:41:10 <kilobyte> greensnark: too bad, re-learning the keys takes a lot of time.  Switching between roguelikes is a pain...
06:41:31 <kilobyte> should be 1/3 of that or so
06:41:50 <Blackflare> do you guys ever sleep
06:42:17 <kilobyte> Blackflare: time zones
06:42:24 <Blackflare> I figured
06:42:37 <Blackflare> Its still funny to see people talking at a weird time here anyway
06:42:55 <Blackflare> whereabouts are you anyway kilo?
06:43:16 <kilobyte> Polackland
06:43:33 <kilobyte> Yurop
06:43:46 <Blackflare> fun
06:43:52 <Zaba> heh..
06:44:07 <due> Okay, I'm off to bed
06:44:11 <due> goodnight fol
06:44:17 <dpeg> bye!
06:45:05 <Napkin> anyone writing to this Alex Korol guy?
06:45:14 <Napkin> Because I am..
06:45:28 <elly> 06:21 <@dpeg> Keskitalo: RangerC == Elly ??
06:45:28 <elly> no
06:45:31 <elly> 06:23 <+Keskitalo> Elly == Elyvilon :)
06:45:36 <elly> I can neither confirm nor deny
06:45:46 <kilobyte> due: bye!
06:45:48 <dpeg> Napkin: thanks for that
06:46:41 <Napkin> alright, mail sent :) Süßkraaaaaam!
06:46:45 <Napkin> o/
06:46:57 <Keskitalo> argh, how was the weapon wielding for monster tiles handled again..
06:47:09 <Zaba> kilobyte, why does it seem to me that package.cc code assumes that the compiler aligns structs in predictable ways?
06:49:27 <kilobyte> Zaba: can it ever put 32 bit fields to a bigger alignment than 4?  I'd say it would break a damn lot of software.
06:49:46 <kilobyte> I explicitely specify padding elsewhere.
06:50:51 <Keskitalo> Hmrmh. I guess vault-only tiles can't show wielded items dynamically..
06:53:35 <Keskitalo> coolio_mc: Would you like to do one final iteration of the gnoll sergeant? This time with a spear wielded, preferably nasty-looking if you can fit that in. :) I'm modifying the vault so that the sergeant will always have a good spear + buckler or shield.
06:54:24 <kilobyte> Keskitalo: tilemcache.cc seems to operate on tile rather than monster enums -- wouldn't it be enough to put the offset there?
06:55:20 <Keskitalo> It looked it used TILEP_etc enums, which need to be linked with MONS enums in tilepick.cc as far as I could tell
06:57:47 <kilobyte> Zaba: would you want a way to allow handling old save formats?
06:59:29 <Zaba> hm, would that even be sanely possible?
07:00:08 <Zaba> naming level chunks in a nicer way would be nice, but probably doesn't justify such compatibility breakage
07:00:31 <Zaba> could still do it when it comes to bumping the major save version...
07:02:19 <CIA-113> 03kilobyte * r95d7f0cd5adb 10/crawl-ref/source/ (package.cc package.h): Allow handling old save package formats.
07:03:19 <kilobyte> Zaba: there's a version field, read_directory() could keep old code
07:03:30 <Zaba> ah.
07:03:52 <kilobyte> it's more than just a major version too
07:04:11 <kilobyte> but also less, since changing the file format wouldn't even affect the minor :p
07:04:22 <Zaba> yeah, I know that it's different
07:04:42 <Zaba> but with a major version bump, you don't care about old saves anyway, so you might as well change the package format
07:12:03 <kilobyte> IIRC CDO relies on being able to query old saves with a new executable, and it'd be trivial to keep this compatibility
07:12:14 <Zaba> hm, well, then I guess it could indeed be done
07:15:45 <CIA-113> 03kilobyte * rd78b096eb75f 10/crawl-ref/source/package.cc: Fix a memory leak and potential crash on browsing corrupted saves.
07:15:52 <dpeg> bhaak: you would get much further if you remembered to heal up before important fights.
07:15:52 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev
07:17:00 <galehar> greensnark: thanks for explaining the gdb crash
07:17:41 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev
07:19:08 <bhaak> dpeg: yes and I would live longer if I not always attacked hydras!
07:19:34 <Napkin> hey dpeg, that's just an awesome link you gave there
07:19:55 <Napkin> galehar: may I add it to your post? :D
07:20:21 <galehar> I have just started reading it
07:20:36 <Napkin> btw, galehar, did you give this huge link (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/permalink_page.php?url=https%3A%2F%2Fcrawl.develz.org%2Fmantis%2Fsearch.php%3Fproject_id%3D1%26amp%3Bcategory%3DImplementables%26amp%3Bsticky_issues%3Don%26amp%3Bsortby%3Dlast_updated%26amp%3Bdir%3DDESC%26amp%3Bhide_status_id%3D80) on purpose?
07:20:57 <Napkin> I mean.. you probably only wanted to give this link (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/search.php?project_id=1&category=Implementables&sticky_issues=on&sortby=last_updated&dir=DESC&hide_status_id=80), right?
07:21:10 <dpeg> Napkin: that link is from bhaak, all praise goes to him
07:21:15 <galehar> of course!
07:21:21 <galehar> my mistake :)
07:21:27 <galehar> I'll fix it
07:21:27 <Napkin> good, i fixed it :)
07:21:31 <galehar> ok, cool
07:29:40 <Gretell> dazzle (L19 DSIE) ASSERT(!did_msg) in 'spl-miscast.cc' at line 410 failed. (D:20)
07:29:50 -!- dazzle has joined ##crawl-dev
07:29:54 <dazzle> :<
07:32:34 <dazzle> I crashed again
07:33:50 <kilobyte> !lm dazzle type=crash -log
07:33:50 <Sequell> 23. dazzle, XL19 DSIE, T:72428 (milestone): http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/dazzle/crash-dazzle-20110107-132940.txt
07:45:21 <dpeg> The cursed -2,+11 lajatang of Resourcefulness {slice, rF+ rC+ Str-3}
07:45:35 <dpeg> 1336 gold
07:48:22 <CIA-113> 03kilobyte * r269fbcadbaf6 10/crawl-ref/source/package.cc: Fix an irrelevant memory leak on write errors.
07:48:24 <CIA-113> 03kilobyte * rabf4f0c5ed83 10/crawl-ref/source/spl-miscast.cc: Fix a double miscast crash.
07:48:51 <kilobyte> I used to think that lajatangs are hot.  No idea why, they're among the worst pieces of crap we have.
07:49:22 <kilobyte> min delay 7, damage 14, bad accuracy malus
07:49:39 <kilobyte> there are better one-handers
07:50:29 <greensnark> That's because lajatangs are one of the unimplemented weapon types
07:50:34 <greensnark> HANDS_DOUBLE was never implemented
07:50:43 <greensnark> You're supposed to be able to use both ends of the lajatang to attack
07:51:16 <dpeg> greensnark: you have implemented lajatangs!
07:51:20 <dpeg> for DCSS 0.1!
07:51:26 <kilobyte> so it'd mostly be a speed brand, right?
07:51:28 <greensnark> dpeg: No, I just included 4.1 itemprop :P
07:51:40 <dpeg> greensnark: but is unfinished since 0.1 :(
07:51:48 <greensnark> kilobyte: A weaker speed brand that allowed you to apply a real brand on top of it
07:51:57 <greensnark> dpeg: Yes :P
07:52:02 <dpeg> greensnark: and the real problem is that we didn't know
07:52:15 <greensnark> About HANDS_DOUBLE?
07:52:19 <dpeg> yes
07:52:23 <greensnark> I thought there was some discussion of it
07:52:30 <greensnark> Around 0.1-0.2 though
07:52:41 <st_> something is messing up my autotravel/ctrl-o, vaults and hive have just been forgotten
07:54:06 <syllogism> dire flail was hands_double too, I guess that's why it was also so terrible
07:54:21 <greensnark> Yes
07:54:39 <kilobyte> it _is_ hands_double, still
07:54:40 <greensnark> I think 4.1 also made regular quarterstaves hands-double, don't recall
07:54:53 <greensnark> kilobyte: Yeah, but hands_double is treated as two-handed
07:55:30 <kilobyte> which makes a 13 dam weapon when you're swinging a 26 dam one
07:55:33 <greensnark> hands_double is hands_two+double-ended attack
07:55:41 <greensnark> Well, it's supposed to be that :P
07:55:44 <kilobyte> er, 22
07:55:58 <greensnark> It's not a straight speed brand
07:56:17 <kilobyte> then please tell us more so we can fix it
07:56:21 <dpeg> yes!
07:56:50 <greensnark> I don't remember, but the 4.1 source code will remember :)
07:57:12 <greensnark> 4.1 combat code was much cleaner in general
07:57:24 <Zaba> 4.1 dungeon code was not, though ;P
07:58:37 <dpeg> Zaba: nice :)
07:59:42 <greensnark> I don't know what I did with my 4.1 tarball
07:59:46 <greensnark> I suspect syllogism has one
07:59:59 <greensnark> Didn't Napking host it somewhere too
08:00:04 <greensnark> !coffee Napkin
08:00:05 * Henzell hands Napkin a cup of caffè macchiato, brewed by Gastronok.
08:00:06 <kilobyte> yes, it's live on CDO
08:00:24 <Zaba> greensnark, http://crawl.develz.org/source/crawl-4.1.2.tar.bz2 # ?
08:00:30 <greensnark> Sounds like it
08:00:52 <greensnark> Ah, 1M tarball, those were the days :P
08:01:06 <syllogism> was looking at the code but I'll let you decipher it :P
08:04:40 <Ashenzari> Ctrl-O/autotravel forgetfulness (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3168) by st
08:06:54 <Napkin> hmmmmm? ahhh, yes :)
08:06:57 -!- elliptic has quit [Quit: Leaving]
08:18:20 <greensnark> Actually a quick glance at 4.1 fight.cc suggests only that PCs who were too small to use the weapon double-ended got a speed penalty :P
08:18:55 <greensnark> Too small or wearing shield == kiss of death for double-ended weapon
08:19:28 <st_> so agnes will have a speed penalty on her lajatang? :P
08:19:39 <greensnark> Oh no, that was just 4.1
08:19:51 <greensnark> And I'm not reading the code very carefully, still at work :P
08:20:16 <greensnark> Is your ^O forgetfulness some kind of portal mimic thing
08:21:16 <st_> don't think so, I've just been traveling to/from my stash
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08:28:53 <st_> I can't figure out what's causing it
08:29:34 <greensnark> There was a shim to fix feature mimics confusing ^O, it might be doing the forgetting for you
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08:34:20 <dpeg> Mu_: as a rule of thumb, I think it's better to close the old Mantis item. And make a new one or reopen once the need arises.
08:34:35 <greensnark> st_: When did you start your game
08:34:51 <st_> a few days ago
08:34:53 <greensnark> It looks like the stair fix shim actually forgets branch stairs from older saves if you visit the level
08:35:07 <greensnark> The good news is it won't forget it again :P
08:35:20 <greensnark> Or does it keep forgetting the stairs? :P
08:35:55 <st_> I think it's just once, yeah orc/temple got forgotten when I went to put my runes on d:1
08:36:09 <greensnark> Ok, I think we can toss the shim
08:37:35 <Mu_> dpeg: oki
08:39:28 <Zaba> we need to organize a bugday, upon which we shall browse through old bug reports and close the irrelevant ones
08:39:54 <Zaba> 962 open issues is not nice
08:41:15 <dpeg> Zaba: true
08:42:27 <greensnark> rob used to close all those issues. "Oh for the touch of a vanished hand, and the sound of a voice that is still!"
08:42:54 <greensnark> I'm pretty sure that's authentic Tennyson
08:43:02 <syllogism> "Imp insults do not wake monsters"
08:43:21 <greensnark> Yeah, imps beam their insults directly into your head
08:45:04 <Mu_> is there a list on the wiki of how ench is being broken up?
08:45:33 <greensnark> The great ench break up of 2011. It's not you, it's me.
08:45:58 <kilobyte> yeah, there's an emphasis on "break" rather than "break up" :p
08:46:28 <kilobyte> Mu_: uhm, currently just the code, sorry
08:46:38 <CIA-113> 03greensnark * rd58480827cf9 10/crawl-ref/source/tags.cc: [3168] Remove stair mimic save shim (st).
08:48:38 <greensnark> dpeg!!!
08:49:02 <greensnark> dpeg: Why do you keep poking at the amulet of Four Winds :P
08:49:11 <kilobyte> greensnark: are double weapons supposed to be finished in 4.1.2?
08:49:20 <greensnark> Every time dpeg gets a spare five minutes he wizmodes up the amulet of Four Winds and rocks it to sleep.
08:49:27 <greensnark> kilobyte: No idea, actually.
08:49:47 <greensnark> I know Brent had a lot of unfinished combat tasks but he didn't share his todo list
08:49:53 <kilobyte> because I see nothing but a speed penalty if you wield them with a shield or you're small -- as opposed to our halving of damage
08:50:06 <greensnark> kilobyte: Yeah, that's what I saw too
08:50:13 <greensnark> Maybe he thought lajatangs are good enough :)
08:50:36 <kilobyte> so we have to come up with something on our own
08:52:04 <kilobyte> I wonder: a second blow at half the base damage and an acc penalty; enchantment/skill/slaying bonuses on both are halved
08:52:17 <kilobyte> would that be a decent first approximation?
08:52:44 <kilobyte> ("both" = acc and dam)
08:55:00 <greensnark> It might be too strong with a 14 base damage weapon that's already reasonably fast
08:55:46 <greensnark> i.e. assuming the second attack is 0-delay
08:55:50 <kilobyte> all two-handers have the same speed
08:56:03 <greensnark> At high enough skill, yes
08:56:31 <greensnark> Actually I don't remember the min delay numbers any more :)
08:57:05 <greensnark> I do think getting a double attack from double-ended weapons would be cool though
08:57:23 <greensnark> Just a matter of adjusting the second attack
08:57:30 <greensnark> So it doesn't become ridiculous
08:58:04 <greensnark> Oh, halving bonuses on both attacks sounds like a good approx
08:58:15 <greensnark> I misread that as halving bonuses on the second attack
08:58:55 <greensnark> Aah, my conf call postponed by another half hour :(
08:59:06 * greensnark hates conf calls scheduled for Friday evening and then postponed
09:01:12 <Napkin> wth, greensnark
09:01:22 <Napkin> bastards...
09:03:51 <kilobyte> greensnark: what would need to be done to get portable lua in saves?
09:04:43 <kilobyte> a while ago I looked into saving source chunks rather than precompiled ones, and it worked in most save calls -- except for markers which don't keep the source
09:05:04 <kilobyte> but I don't have a clue about lua
09:12:23 <Zaba> kilobyte, so, are you going to add support for arbitrarily long chunk names? Since it's possible to do so without breaking old saves...
09:17:36 <greensnark> kilobyte: Yes, Zaba and I discussed that the other day
09:18:13 <greensnark> There's no real need to save Lua code in the save. We can instead require that any unmarshall/callback functions be registered by a globally accessible name and save that name in the save
09:18:56 <greensnark> Currently all vaults placed on a level are also saved, complete with Lua, but we don't actually use the Lua for anything. That can be replaced by saving the vault name and the mask alone
09:19:10 <Zaba> shouldn't that be a relatively easy change?
09:19:14 <Zaba> if it's not used for anything
09:19:18 <greensnark> The last bit is an easy change
09:19:46 <Zaba> and don't we already save vault names and masks?
09:19:49 <greensnark> Saving unmarshall and callbacks as names is also relatively easy, but time-consuming + save breaking
09:20:10 <greensnark> We already do save vault names and masks and the actual backing map, yes
09:20:37 <greensnark> The mask + actual map + name are important; the rest can be retrieved if necessary from the .des file
09:21:01 <RjY> i wonder, has the idea of removing the restriction that conjure flame must be cast on an empty square ever been considered? or would that be too powerful?
09:22:35 <syllogism> might be fine
09:24:19 <syllogism> or actually probably not, since it's too easy to have a rat or something between you and a, say, hydra
09:33:45 <Zaba> greensnark, hmm.. it seems like at least some lua chunks that are saved with maps are used
09:34:13 <greensnark> Zaba: For markers or something else?
09:34:22 <greensnark> We already covered markers
09:34:29 <Zaba> not markers
09:34:47 <Zaba> but just removing the reads/writes of lua chunks from mapdef.cc read*/write* functions breaks stuff :P
09:34:56 <Zaba> I don't have time to investigate this further right now, though, brb
09:41:09 <galehar> RjY: I suggested allowing burning down doors with conjure flame. Problem is that technically doors aren't really wooden doors, but "openable wall" (so, could be stone or metal for example)
09:46:14 <kilobyte> Zaba: is 255 arbitrary enough?
09:46:46 <kilobyte> Pascal strings are slightly easier to unmarshall
09:51:43 <greensnark> \o/ Call over
09:51:55 <greensnark> \o\ \o/ /o/
09:52:01 <greensnark> Ok, off home
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10:12:24 <Napkin> erm.. is this guy anyone of you? 93-34-137-151.ip50.fastwebnet.it
10:12:44 <Napkin> not sure how, but his in.telnetd (not dgl!) is using up 99% of one cpu
10:12:47 <Napkin> geeez...
10:13:38 <Napkin> killed.
10:13:39 <Napkin> o/
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10:25:33 <ortoslon> !messages
10:25:34 <Henzell> No messages for ortoslon.
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10:30:42 -!- Kurper has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
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10:49:41 <bhaak> erm, I get "Partly explored, can't reach some items and places." in a free unexplored corridor?
10:54:10 <greensnark> bhaak: Sounds like a bug!
10:54:16 <greensnark> You should copy your save :)
10:54:32 <bhaak> http://crawl.develz.org/saves/dumps/bhaak-4592c25-110107-1653.tar.bz2
10:54:43 <bhaak> should I open a bug?
10:54:58 <greensnark> Let me take a peek
10:55:36 <dpeg> back
10:55:59 <greensnark> bhaak: Oh, you're sitting in the middle of an exclude
10:56:17 <greensnark> Explore does tend to produce unhelpful messages in the presence of excludes and stuff
10:56:51 <greensnark> bhaak: Out of curiosity, why did you exclude that square?
10:56:53 <bhaak> ah, when I drop an item it might get confused?
10:57:06 <dpeg> that's one of the Interface implementables: better explanation why autoexplore does not carry on
10:57:27 <bhaak> thrown short sword, killed monster, 'o'd to square, picked up loot and sword, dropped sword as I didn't need it anymore
10:57:30 <greensnark> dpeg: That's a good one
10:57:46 <greensnark> bhaak: Maybe you pressed the exclude key accidentally?
10:58:06 <bhaak> greensnark: which one is the exclude key?
10:58:19 <dpeg> https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:interface:interface_implementables#comments_why_auto-explore_does_not_start
10:58:20 <greensnark> e in the X map
10:58:27 <dpeg> even has a nice red Urgent! sign :)
10:58:48 <dpeg> bhaak: in Crawl, there is context sensitive help ==> press X?
10:59:01 <bhaak> hmm, no, I was never in the X map in that game. as you can see, it was almost at the start of the game
10:59:30 <dpeg> what happens when you press 'E' on a square - does that still exclude the place?
10:59:41 <greensnark> I think you can also exclude from the 'x' look around
10:59:51 <dpeg> greensnark: hah, didn't even know that
11:00:05 <dpeg> exluding squares while targeting, too? :)
11:00:16 <dpeg> gotta look after food
11:00:21 <greensnark> And 'x' look around excludes just say "Placed new exclusion" which is somewhat unhelpful if you don't know what an exclusion is :)
11:01:52 <bhaak> oh, now I know what happened
11:02:12 <bhaak> I pressed 'f' and then 'e', as the item was in the 'e' slot
11:02:36 <greensnark> Ah
11:02:39 <bhaak> it didn't work and then i rememebered that I forgot 'i'
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11:02:54 <greensnark> fie!
11:06:04 <dpeg> greensnark: see, exluded in target mode
11:06:17 <dpeg> exclusions should only be possible in X -- what do you thinkß
11:06:30 <greensnark> dpeg: I think 'x' should also be excludable, but with better feedback
11:06:39 <greensnark> I don't think 'f' should allow it, certainly
11:06:39 <dpeg> greensnark: ok
11:06:47 <dpeg> 'f' is not good, yes
11:10:02 <greensnark> kilobyte: SA likes your Ash wrath: "Crawl devs are goddamn geniuses. That's a perfect in-theme wrath for Ashenzari, and I'd never have thought of it." :P
11:11:11 <dpeg> Do they feed chalk to SAers these days? :)
11:11:21 <greensnark> Chalk?
11:12:06 <bhaak> german picture :)
11:12:18 <greensnark> These germans are crazy
11:12:31 <greensnark> Sometimes Obelix expresses it best :P
11:14:55 <bhaak> it goes back to the grimm fairy tale of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wolf_and_the_Seven_Young_Kids
11:15:44 <bhaak> eating chalk -> getting a soft voice, pretending to be nice
11:16:15 <greensnark> The Grimms obviously suffered from some kind of psychosis judging by their stories
11:16:34 <bhaak> lol, they collected them, they didn't invent them :)
11:16:34 <greensnark> I can't believe they use these stories for kids :P
11:16:54 <ortoslon> greensnark: you speak about SA as a whole like it's a hivemind :)
11:17:15 <bhaak> in subsequent releases, they toned down some of the stories. the first edition had some pretty harsh stories :)
11:17:17 <greensnark> ortoslon: It's easier to write "SA" than "drone xyz on SA"
11:18:33 <greensnark> At least the Grimm stories weren't full of religious brainwashing :P
11:18:41 <greensnark> I grew up on wacky Hindu folktales
11:18:53 <greensnark> There was one about an elephant that went down to a pool to drink and was seized by a crocodile
11:19:05 <greensnark> Now your normal sane elephant would probably stomp the crocodile into a paste and call it a day
11:19:12 <greensnark> But no! This elephant prayed to Krishna!
11:19:24 <greensnark> And Krishna presumably turned the crocodile into a vegetarian
11:19:29 <greensnark> That's the kind of stories I got :P
11:19:32 <bhaak> cool, a religious elephnat
11:19:55 <greensnark> Yeah, no wonder they're in danger of going extinct if they spend all their time praying
11:20:16 <greensnark> My mom had a book of fairy tales, but this wolf and kids story was not one of them
11:21:55 -!- ortoslon has quit [Quit: bye]
11:25:27 <bhaak> maybe not religious brainwashing, but we've got stories with social brainwashing, like the story about the ant and the grasshopper, where the grasshopper is left to die in the winter as it did play music all summer long instead of working like the ant
11:27:01 <greensnark> There's a brilliant Somerset Maugham story called the Ant and the grasshopper
11:29:12 <bhaak> "At the end the latter is enraged to discover that his 'grasshopper' brother has married a rich widow, who then dies and leaves him a fortune"
11:29:31 <bhaak> wikipedia tells me that the story has been re-told in different versions since antiquity
11:29:37 <bhaak> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ant_and_the_Grasshopper
11:29:45 <greensnark> Ah, but the Maugham story subverts the trope
11:29:52 <greensnark> And does it very well
11:29:55 <bhaak> yes :)
11:30:14 <greensnark> I think I actually had it in some English class in school
11:30:23 <greensnark> A nice change from the usual boring claptrap
11:40:16 <Napkin> hihi: https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=234 - Donations :D
11:44:31 <bhaak> oh, yes, where's your flattr account?
11:49:19 <enne> bhaak: http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=2116
11:51:27 <bhaak> enne: :-D
11:52:17 <CIA-113> 03greensnark * r2e00b12847f3 10/crawl-ref/source/ (externs.h travel.cc): Inform the user if travel/explore cuts off because the PC is in an excluded area (bhaak).
11:52:48 <Gretell> Maniacuz (L18 SETm) ASSERT(!did_msg) in 'spl-miscast.cc' at line 410 failed. (Swamp:1)
11:55:10 <syllogism> !lm maniacuz -log
11:55:10 <Sequell> 1189. Maniacuz, XL18 SETm, T:46402 (milestone): http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/Maniacuz/crash-Maniacuz-20110107-175248.txt
11:55:46 -!- eith has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
11:56:07 <greensnark> Guess CDO needs an update if the crash is common
12:04:20 <Gretell> Unstable branch on CDO updated to: 0.8.0-a0-4377-g2e00b12 (31.30)
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12:28:56 <Napkin> heh, we've been linked: http://roguelikedeveloper.blogspot.com/2011/01/runner-up-of-ascii-dreams-roguelike-of.html
12:29:37 <Napkin> added a "Main Site" link in the forum to get back to the wordpress
12:38:26 <bhaak> Napkin: roguetemple has a nicer top 10 than the one I did: http://www.roguetemple.com/2011/01/03/asciidreams-roguelike-of-the-year-2010-results/
12:39:31 <Napkin> pity that only so few links actually show up in the "linked by" category
12:39:44 <Napkin> *Incoming Links
12:39:47 <Napkin> pizza!
12:39:50 <Napkin> o/
12:40:49 <Mu_> i'd never even heard of tome
12:41:09 <greensnark> bhaak: I confess I actually voted for UnNethack
12:41:15 <greensnark> Mu_: What? Tome is pretty well known :P
12:41:25 <syllogism> there probably hasn't been a SA thread or something :P
12:41:27 <Zaba> does tome have an ascii mode
12:41:36 <Mu_> greensnark amongst losers!!!
12:41:49 <greensnark> Mu_: :P
12:41:52 <greensnark> Darkgod is pretty cool
12:42:07 <greensnark> I don't actually know anyone who admits playing Tome though
12:42:11 <syllogism> I was a darkgod once
12:42:17 <syllogism> (played possessor in Tome 3)
12:42:18 <Zaba> and I mean ascii, not images taht look like letters and symbols
12:42:22 <bhaak> greensnark: thanks :)
12:42:29 <syllogism> and darkgod is one of the joke monsters, if you've those enabled
12:42:30 <Zaba> that*
12:42:37 <bhaak> I knew you're a nethacker at heart
12:43:12 <greensnark> Well, by the time I voted the Crawl/Tome issue was already settled :P
12:43:26 <Zaba> the crawl/tome feud is far from settled!
12:43:31 <syllogism> my vote pushed crawl over the top but no one else did their part :P
12:43:52 <Zaba> hey, I voted for crawl in every damned browser I have on this system :P
12:44:25 <Zaba> but I had a legitimate reason: The poll didn't show me the results, and I was checking whether it's a browser compatibility issue.
12:44:34 <Blackflare> hey is tgwi around?
12:44:51 <Blackflare> hm, nope
12:45:20 <Blackflare> "Use Euclidean distance noise spread for the pretty grids (sorry, TGWi)." why would this upset him?
12:45:48 <syllogism> he is known for his hate for all things euclidean
12:45:58 <Blackflare> ah
12:46:20 <Blackflare> the new noise system looks exciting
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12:52:38 <coolio_mc> is there a command in wizmode to make monsters ignore you?
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12:56:35 <dpeg> greensnark: the Grimm stories were intended (and written) for adults. The real perversion is that some sicko sold these as "children tales". And sickos still do.
12:57:18 <Blackflare> scaring children is the best
12:57:59 <Zannick> but how better to teach children not to eat too much candy unless they believe a witch will eat them if they're fat?
12:58:28 <Blackflare> its a good life lesson
13:01:28 <bhaak> Napkin: re incoming links, probably because most link to http://crawl.develz.org/ and not to http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/ ?
13:01:44 <Napkin> I'm afraid so, yes
13:03:55 <greensnark> Damn, my second hard drive just blew
13:04:03 <greensnark> Goddamn Seagate
13:04:04 <Napkin> ouch
13:04:14 <Zaba> greensnark, second in a raid1?
13:04:27 <greensnark> Zaba: No, it's mounted for additional data
13:04:32 <Zaba> oh, ouch
13:04:49 <greensnark> Nothing vital on it, but I have very little free space until I get a new disk
13:04:55 <syllogism> coolio_mc: no, but setting stealth above 27 sort of works
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13:07:25 <Napkin> bhaak: hmm, no change when I told it to search for "http://crawl.develz.org" only
13:08:24 <dpeg> greensnark: there's also a Grimm fairy tale about busted hard drives.
13:08:47 <greensnark> <-- annoyed panda
13:09:07 <dpeg> greensnark: yes, was meant as consolation, not to mock you :|
13:09:10 <greensnark> Oracle database was on that volume and now I have to rebuild it over the weekend :'(
13:09:16 <dpeg> !coffee greensnark
13:09:16 * Henzell hands greensnark a pot of black coffee, brewed by Xtahua.
13:09:51 <greensnark> I knew I should have bought Western Digital :P
13:10:37 <dpeg> There's a group of dedicated players who're fighting to keep Makhleb as a starting god.
13:11:27 <Napkin> not sure you are joking, greensnark - but i believe you would have had to rebuild the db even earlier then...
13:11:46 <greensnark> Napkin: ?
13:11:46 <Napkin> _all_ my buddies complaining about wd disks
13:11:52 <greensnark> Oh
13:12:00 <greensnark> Well, it's just a joke around here :P
13:12:11 <Napkin> erm, ok :D
13:12:18 <greensnark> Seagate had a lot of bad disks a few years ago and after that we always curse Seagate when a drive fails :P
13:12:25 <Napkin> true
13:12:27 <greensnark> We also buy only Seagate because it's the most available :P
13:12:34 <greensnark> Much harder to source WD
13:12:39 <Napkin> ah, ok
13:12:45 <Napkin> not much difference here
13:12:57 <Napkin> i had best luck with samsung so far
13:13:38 <Zaba> I have a seven years old 120GB samsung drive used 24/7 here
13:13:57 <dpeg> jpeg is right: what happens with those SF donations? I bet that that peterb and natl are affording new swimming pools each year off it.
13:14:06 <dpeg> Instead of buying greensnark a decent harddrive.
13:14:07 <Napkin> lol, dpeg
13:17:49 <greensnark> dpeg: I think Nat set all donations to go to the EFF
13:18:15 <greensnark> But I'm not 100% sure. Someone with project admin rights could check :P
13:18:33 <dpeg> Who could that be?
13:18:41 <greensnark> Can't imagine
13:18:48 <dpeg> I haven't talked to either of them for years... since I got admin rights, to be precise.
13:18:49 <greensnark> But I'm sure they're named after a certain Pan lord
13:20:56 <Zaba> EFF/
13:21:03 <Zaba> y|/|?|
13:22:25 <dpeg> http://www.eff.org/
13:22:53 <Zaba> oh, that eff
13:23:29 <dpeg> are you aware of other ones? :)
13:23:50 <bhaak> greensnark: I only buy Samsung :)
13:24:15 <Zaba> there's a certain quantity of them, yes, enumerated helpfully on wikipedia's disambiguation page :P
13:27:55 <greensnark> bhaak: I shall buy a Samsung replacement!
13:31:21 <Napkin> I suggest this one, greensnark: SAMSUNG HD502HJ - silent, fast, not big, no 4kb blocks
13:31:57 <greensnark> Napkin: Thanks!
13:36:11 <Napkin> i can only say good luck - harddisks seem to have become a tricky business nowadays
13:37:08 <Napkin> my cousin in the us is really getting tired of sending in his green (or blue?) wd every 3-5 months (not kidding)
13:37:22 <greensnark> Heh
13:39:40 <Napkin> i also have big seagates for storage ST31500541AS (100mb/s instead of 133mb/s, 1.5tb instead of 500gb) - but omg.. something is really wrong with them. they (both) made some weird loud head-clicking sound from day one. (both bought from different suppliers, about 2 months apart)
13:39:59 <Napkin> crackman> ich hab aus 220 platten im raid 70 weggeworfen das waren wd 400GB raid edition disks
13:40:36 <Napkin> (working for mpiz, had to throw out 70 of 220 disks (400gb), all from wd)
13:40:45 <greensnark> Napkin: The Seagate that just failed made several aggravated clicking noises just before it died :)
13:41:13 <greensnark> Eek 70 of 220
13:41:23 <Napkin> (they switched to 70 seagate constellation series instead)
13:41:48 <Napkin> ah, that's a sad sound
13:41:50 <Napkin> ;)
13:42:16 <Napkin> not the first and not the last time you heard/will hear it, i bet :)
13:42:45 <greensnark> Well, usually the dying sounds aren't as loud as this was
13:42:52 <greensnark> I could hear it with headphones on :P
13:42:53 <Napkin> samsung spinpoint f1 aren't too stable either
13:44:13 <Napkin> ouch - that's nicely loud :D
13:46:11 <Napkin> @spinpoint f1: namely SAMSUNG HD103UJ, SAMSUNG HD103SJ - bad!
13:46:31 <Napkin> well, enough of that, i guess ;)
13:47:56 <greensnark> I have to check what's available :)
13:48:09 <greensnark> I usually buy local if I can
13:48:31 <greensnark> Ordering is slow and hitting the main supply area around SP road == death by traffic
13:48:38 <greensnark> I'll check in the morning :)
13:48:41 <sorear> SP?
13:49:05 <greensnark> sorear: Bangalore road stuffed with shops selling general electronics and computer hardware
13:49:18 <greensnark> Sadar Patrappa if you want to know the expansion :)
13:50:29 <dpeg> I feel we should collect some momentum so as to give Ash a further push.
13:50:32 <Napkin> oh.. buying locally is no longer possible since i moved away from the city with the university :D
13:50:39 <dpeg> kilobyte did a great step today with the penance effect.
13:52:33 <Napkin> I have to say, I'm really looking forward to 0.8
13:52:33 <Napkin> actually considering playing trunk again :>
13:53:18 <dpeg> Napkin: it itches, doesn't it? :P
13:53:25 <Napkin> ;-P
13:54:10 <dpeg> greensnark: your commit about why autoexplore doesn't start lists more reasons that just being in an excluded area?
13:54:21 <greensnark> dpeg: No
13:55:25 <dpeg> ok
13:55:30 <dpeg> the commit is so long :)
13:56:21 <greensnark> No it isn't :P
13:57:01 <greensnark> bhaak: If someone takes a random sample of #unnethack conversation and runs into kerio, what will they think :P
13:59:21 <bhaak> greensnark: nothing good, I guess :D
14:00:10 <greensnark> Haha, dpeg drops in to check out kerio
14:00:40 <dpeg> must.not.incite.flamewar.in.unnethack
14:00:57 <dpeg> Who is kerio? Famous or infamous?
14:01:25 <Adeon> a crazy italian troll master
14:01:33 <dpeg> I see
14:01:54 <dpeg> !seen lorimer
14:01:55 <Henzell> I last saw lorimer at Tue Jan  4 08:47:47 2011 UTC (3d 11h 14m 7s ago) joining the channel.
14:04:19 <dpeg> SA is really tame... they're discussing how to conquer that Lair oklob vault without spreading pestilence and decay.
14:04:39 <greensnark> dpeg: Hey, I thought you'd taken the don't-read-your-forums thing to heart :P
14:06:02 <dpeg> greensnark: too weak!
14:06:12 <dpeg> also, I just said I won't write (which I don't)
14:07:43 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev
14:08:43 * lorimer kicks dpeg in the junk
14:08:44 <lorimer> \o/
14:08:47 <lorimer> i win i win i love this game
14:08:48 * lorimer runs off
14:09:01 <dpeg> lorimer: hi :)
14:09:07 <dpeg> Just testing if you're alive.
14:09:12 <lorimer> yeah, but i'm trapped in a teambuilding exercise
14:09:16 <greensnark> Wow, ninja junk-kicking sporkdevs :P
14:09:18 <lorimer> i have temporarily sshed back to the house
14:09:30 <lorimer> but must escape soon as yet more pain will break loose
14:09:53 <dpeg> lorimer: teambuilding for work or actually for spork?
14:09:56 <lorimer> no, for work
14:10:09 <lorimer> our yearly kickoff session thingy wotcha
14:10:17 <greensnark> There's that kick word again :P
14:10:26 <lorimer> it's a very kicky corner of the world :D
14:11:07 <lorimer> ok, on that note i must bail
14:11:11 * lorimer waves
14:11:22 <greensnark> Get your kick on :P
14:11:29 <dpeg> bye lorimer
14:11:34 <dpeg> galehar: hi
14:11:36 <galehar> someone wants to give us money on the forum
14:11:41 <dpeg> galehar: actually did
14:11:49 <greensnark> Team building exercises are always funny
14:11:57 <galehar> what are we going to do with it?
14:12:01 <dpeg> and we don't really know what Nat and Peter are doing with the money donated via SF.
14:12:10 <dpeg> greensnark says they give it to EFF.
14:12:40 <greensnark> dpeg: I think you can check :P
14:12:45 <greensnark> Somewhere on the SF project page
14:13:11 <greensnark> I do remember Peter or Nat saying the donations went to the EFF
14:13:25 <greensnark> Because someone asked if the Crawl license strictly allows accepting donations :P
14:13:39 <dpeg> haha
14:14:08 <greensnark> "You are prohibited by the terms of this Licence Agreement from using Crawl for gainful purposes." <- whatever the hell that means
14:14:24 <greensnark> Good thing we're ditching that lousy old licence :P
14:16:11 <greensnark> ??silent spectre
14:16:11 <Henzell> silent spectre[1/2]: A weak ghost added in 0.8 trunk that spawns in Crypt. It radiates silence over a huge area (bigger than LOS). Will happily follow you around and trivialise all spellcasting enemies, if you're a fighter. Cookies for the first person to clear Tomb using one.
14:16:18 <greensnark> ^^ not sure that monster is a great idea
14:16:29 <Blackflare> its been in for awhile
14:16:34 <greensnark> Clever ideas like that are all very well, but the dumb-as-bricks monster AI cannot cope with it
14:16:37 <greensnark> I know
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14:17:28 <dpeg> greensnark: monsters like this will remind us to do something about AI
14:17:39 <greensnark> Easier said than done
14:17:42 <TGWi> hi
14:17:46 <dpeg> hi
14:17:47 <sorear> If it's dumb as bricks, why is it so SLOW?
14:18:02 <Blackflare> regarding the thing about donations, I almost feel bad I havent paid for crawl, Ive probably logged more hours than half my purchased game library combined
14:18:03 <greensnark> sorear: Because it's dumb as bricks at being dumb as bricks
14:18:12 <dpeg> greensnark: sure. I just stumbled upon this gem:
14:18:15 <upsy> bricks are pretty slow
14:18:21 <monky> dumber than bricks???
14:18:34 <greensnark> There's a ridiculous section of the AI where it sets up a foe then overwrites it arbitrarily based on insane overlapping conflicting conditions about 30 times
14:18:48 <syllogism> heh
14:18:50 <greensnark> At the end of which nobody has a fucking idea what the monster's foe is
14:19:02 <greensnark> Probably not even the monster itself
14:19:25 <dpeg> // This probably still needs some work.  Rings used to be the only
14:19:27 <Blackflare> hey tgwi
14:19:28 <dpeg> // artefacts which had a change in price, and that value corresponds
14:19:31 <Blackflare> theres a commit mentioning you :D
14:19:35 <dpeg> // to returning 50 from this function.  Good artefacts will probably
14:19:40 <dpeg> // be returning just over 30 right now.  Note that this isn't used
14:19:44 <TGWi> there are like ten commits mentioning me
14:19:47 <dpeg> // as a multiple, its used in the old ring way: 7 * ret is added to
14:19:51 <dpeg> // the price of the artefact. -- bwr
14:19:51 <Blackflare> well, its recent
14:20:06 <TGWi> the circular noise commit?
14:20:15 <Blackflare> its about noise yes
14:20:33 <greensnark> There are 21 references to TGW in the commit history
14:20:42 <TGWi> :D
14:20:44 <Zannick> i think i have three.
14:20:50 <RjY> i dunno, i think bricks are pretty clever, you know, the way they all fit together neatly in a wall and stuff
14:21:25 <dpeg> the item prices are so fucked up
14:21:26 <Blackflare> hm on shop prices, why are some really good items really cheap?
14:21:37 <Blackflare> like boots of running were 110 gold or something
14:21:42 <TGWi> I started a wiki page
14:21:43 <upsy> i think dpeg pre-answered your question
14:21:47 <Blackflare> apparently
14:21:49 <dpeg> Blackflare: won#t be like this in 0.8
14:21:55 <dpeg> TGWi: on what?
14:21:56 <TGWi> pricing
14:22:05 <dpeg> TGWi: ah, so do I :)
14:22:13 <TGWi> but it's hard to make specific suggestions because everything is determined by an inscrutable formula
14:22:17 <dpeg> TGWi: keep going, I have very little actually typed up. It's all notes.
14:22:26 <greensnark> We need an item exchange so the free market can set item prices based on their true value!
14:22:32 <greensnark> And we can have robe of resistance bubbles
14:22:34 <TGWi> so I just put up some complaints on scroll prices etc
14:22:37 <Blackflare> the best thing ever is buying a robe for 23 gold and its a robe of the archmage
14:22:43 <TGWi> greensnark: yesssss
14:23:05 <dpeg> Flame, Frost etc. egos: times 50. Speed: times 40. And it goes on...
14:23:19 <Zannick> true value and market saturation
14:23:19 <sorear> dpeg: it gets divided by 10 later
14:23:22 <dpeg> I have a good formula for enchantments.
14:23:32 <TGWi> the biggest thing I think is wrong with prices: higher base types are worth too much, and magical antiques aren't marked up enough
14:24:24 <dpeg> I also have some ideas how to make stocks more interesting in general.
14:24:50 <TGWi> shops?
14:25:06 <greensnark> I think dpeg has bought the free market idea
14:25:14 <dpeg> TGWi: yes
14:25:47 <dpeg> For example, weapons should come more often with an ego or an enchantment. If they have an ego, negative enchantments are interesting. Same with armours.
14:25:48 <Zannick> simulate a free market?
14:25:55 <dpeg> Fuck the free market.
14:26:18 <dpeg> This is about screwing the customer as royally as it gets.
14:26:30 <Zannick> that sounds like a free market ;)
14:26:43 <dpeg> hehe
14:27:39 <Blackflare> encourage offshore investment of gold for tax evasion purposes
14:28:41 <Zannick> make some shops banks?
14:29:22 <Blackflare> then have them offer loans to poorly qualified adventurers
14:29:24 <Blackflare> and fail
14:29:44 <dpeg> Would it be possible to access rarity in item_value?
14:30:06 <dpeg> I would like to use this for potions and scrolls.
14:30:37 <TGWi> where possible it would be preferable to specify values, imo
14:30:52 <TGWi> easier to change and balance
14:31:15 <dpeg> but someone already thought the rarities
14:31:44 <TGWi> they're not representative of quality though
14:31:49 <dpeg> sure
14:32:04 <dpeg> one reason I propose this is so that strong poison doesn't sell for 1 gp anymore
14:32:12 <TGWi> to get sane prices you'd need rarity formula + special cases
14:32:14 <Blackflare> why?
14:32:20 <TGWi> which is worse than just specifying prices
14:32:34 <Blackflare> is strong poison useful very often?
14:32:39 <casmith789> to be fair 1gp !oSP is about balanced ;p
14:32:49 <TGWi> buying items from shops IDs them
14:32:53 <monky> evap and maybe other things
14:32:57 <dpeg> casmith789: no, it's trivial to buy it
14:32:59 <TGWi> maybe not !sp but decay could cost more than 1
14:33:42 <casmith789> dpeg: sure, it is. but it's not worth it in general. For a specific ID of a not good item, when a general ID costs around 30, a value less than 30 is balanced.
14:39:37 -!- casmith_789 has joined ##crawl-dev
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14:42:46 -!- casmith_789 is now known as casmith789
14:45:07 <Blackflare> hm, the new trunk version doesnt fix my slow travel problem
14:45:20 <Blackflare> I wonder if its the new noise calculations? do they add a lot of overhead?
14:46:39 <TGWi> crawl is revolting against circles
14:47:04 <Ashenzari> missing items in sewer vault (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3169) by KoboldLord
14:47:20 <Blackflare> now the whole game slowed to a ...crawl
14:48:02 <monky> sounds a bit like https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3160
14:50:53 <Blackflare> yes thats exactly my problem monky
14:51:02 <Blackflare> I thought the latest build today fixed it but I guess not
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15:14:15 <dpeg> casmith789: I disagree. This would be true if there were sufficient id scrolls.
15:15:34 <TGWi> item prices should be higher until demand meets supply
15:15:57 <TGWi> obv!
15:16:39 <TGWi> on the topic of negative potions, generally they aren't so bad that you would consider buying one for much more than 1
15:17:00 <TGWi> early game, poison hurts, and decay is nasty without healing; that's pretty much it
15:17:36 <casmith789> dpeg: there aren't?
15:17:52 <syllogism> fr: a potion that gives red glow
15:18:09 <TGWi> that feels more scroll-y
15:18:17 <casmith789> scrolls are atm safe to read ID
15:18:24 <casmith789> potions aren't safe to quaff ID
15:19:41 <dpeg> casmith789: I think there's generally some shortage of id scrolls. More than a shortage of money. If !strong poison came 100gp, would you pay?
15:20:34 <casmith789> no
15:20:39 <TGWi> definitely not
15:20:45 <casmith789> I wouldn't pay for 20
15:20:53 <casmith789> money is much more important
15:21:11 <dpeg> aha
15:21:48 <Blackflare> I usually have way more money than I need
15:22:06 <dpeg> I think the same.
15:22:09 <casmith789> near the end sure
15:22:12 <casmith789> but then neither matter
15:22:17 <dpeg> I would pay 100 gp... not immediately but at some point.
15:22:35 <casmith789> lategame you honestly quaff ID potions?
15:22:44 <Blackflare> its not hard to keep a healing potion on hand when quaff iding either is it?
15:23:14 <casmith789> well why would you waste a potentially good potion like might, agility, cure mut or risk mutation when you could ID it when you get a scroll
15:23:26 <syllogism> I don't think I've ever really had a shortage of id scrolls
15:23:56 <Blackflare> I never have enough to waste on potions
15:23:59 <syllogism> past early game obviously
15:24:01 <dpeg> syllogism: you aer quaffing random potions
15:24:06 <dpeg> I don't, I id them.
15:24:11 <syllogism> no i'm not, I'm just advocating quaffing them: P
15:24:14 <syllogism> completely different
15:24:17 <dpeg> haha <3
15:24:26 <monky> I usually have a slight shortage around early midgame but I wouldn't blow 100 just to id a potion I won't even use
15:24:32 <dpeg> in any case, a price of 1 gp is not good for bad items
15:24:41 <Blackflare> maybe 50g?
15:24:44 <monky> ew
15:24:47 <casmith789> I think it's part of the reward of finding a shop
15:24:48 <monky> 20 is far more reasonable
15:24:53 <TGWi> I'd pay 20 maybe
15:25:01 <monky> something lower than the price of an id scroll at least
15:25:12 <casmith789> if you have been into bazaars, you will know how close the gp situation can get
15:25:32 <dpeg> casmith789: I have invented bazaars.
15:25:48 <casmith789> exactly! so you want your gp :)
15:26:08 <dpeg> casmith789: I want to make certain pecunial (sp?) decisions less trivial.
15:26:33 <dpeg> I have no idea what the threshold is, but there must be some value where players will think before blindly buying bad items.
15:26:43 <TGWi> 10-20
15:26:47 <dpeg> casmith789: I want the gp of players.
15:26:55 <dpeg> TGWi: personally, too low
15:27:01 <dpeg> i.e. I'd buy them for 20.
15:27:04 <Blackflare> why is shortsword greyed out for kenku fighters? they have the same apts for all weapons
15:27:06 <casmith789> you won't get it if you ask for 100 gp from a potion of strong poison
15:27:17 <TGWi> short blades are bad
15:27:18 <TGWi> is why
15:27:23 <casmith789> Blackflare: because short blades are generally a bad weapon time lategame according to the game
15:27:24 <Blackflare> oh :B
15:27:30 <syllogism> it's okay to charge a bit more than some/even most players are willing to pay
15:27:32 <Blackflare> well I dont plan to stick with it
15:27:38 <Blackflare> just use it till I get a longsword and crosstrain
15:27:42 <dpeg> syllogism: yes, I thikn the same
15:27:43 <syllogism> 20-30 seems okay
15:27:47 <casmith789> dpeg: I don't mind, do it. It will hardly affect players such as me
15:27:50 <dpeg> syllogism: good start
15:27:57 <TGWi> dpeg: keep in mind you're asking money for something the player will not use
15:28:08 <dpeg> TGWi: they pay for the information
15:28:10 <Blackflare> theyre still getting something
15:28:15 <TGWi> when one pays 25 or whatever for healing, they get information as well as healing
15:28:29 <dpeg> currently, the guides we have all advocate "buy those useless 1 gp items". I hate that.
15:28:37 <TGWi> when one buys a potion of poison, they're maybe saving one healing
15:28:37 <syllogism> id scrolls are about as much
15:28:38 <TGWi> maybe
15:28:50 <TGWi> or one scroll of id, whichever is closer
15:28:52 <monky> well then make it meaningful but don't put it over useful items
15:29:02 <TGWi> 20 is fair
15:29:09 <syllogism> i'd rather waste an id scroll than a healing potion
15:29:15 <monky> 20 is meaningful early game right?
15:29:35 <TGWi> yes
15:30:46 <dpeg> monky: yes, it is
15:35:59 <dpeg> anyway, that was just one idea
15:36:28 -!- eith has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
15:36:58 <dpeg> besides the obvious (more expensive needles, egos, less expensive miscies), I mulled about selling ego weapons/armours with negative enchantment
15:38:14 <CIA-113> 03greensnark * r7499eb241985 10/crawl-ref/source/util/ (mac-crawl-build mac-crawl-build-update-cdo): Update Mac trunk build+upload-to-CDO script to use the makefile build instead of the broken Xcode build.
15:38:52 <Mu_> when shops generate as antique shops they could do that
15:39:44 <dpeg> Mu_: I also want it for normal shops. Not sure if it is interesting to ponder whether to buy a -2 robe of rF. Is it?
15:40:58 <Mu_> not sure
15:41:48 <Mu_> a prized ego trumps starting enchantment for most people i should think
15:42:10 <monky> especially with enchantment changes & robes
15:42:42 <Mu_> it's a more interesting choice on artefacts
15:47:26 <dpeg> a + 6 curare-tipped +4 needles                                 92 gold
15:47:44 <dpeg> Mu_: but still, would you shell out 300 gp for such a robe?
15:48:19 <Mu_> yeah
15:48:49 <dpeg> need to up the prices some more :)
15:48:52 <monky> I'd wait until I need the resists
15:48:54 <Mu_> haha
15:50:03 <casmith789> dpeg: probably only on a mummy or if I needed rF for some reason which is unlikely until zot (or at least late D) ;)
15:50:42 <Mu_> dunno why you'd pass up a point of resistance for 300gp
15:51:06 <dpeg> Mu_: because you could find an ego robe for free around the corner?
15:52:17 <casmith789> because it loses me ac which is very important and also I probably don't have 300gp
15:52:22 <Mu_> ego robes aren't as easy to find as plates and dragon hides, but 300gp is essentially free anyway
15:52:29 <casmith789> what? no it isn't
15:52:35 <TGWi> no it definitely isn't
15:52:37 <casmith789> what game are you playing
15:52:42 <TGWi> although it's a bit cheap for RoR
15:52:46 <monky> it's cheap late game
15:52:51 <Mu_> ??
15:52:53 <TGWi> base types of armour should not be as expensive as they are
15:52:53 <casmith789> lategame you'll have something anyway
15:52:53 <monky> it's expensive early game
15:53:03 <Mu_> you have 300gp by reaching lair
15:53:04 <casmith789> especially platemails
15:53:16 <dpeg> as long as people are arguing, everything is ok
15:53:20 <casmith789> Mu_: rF+ or a book or a couple of wands or 20 potions :)
15:53:27 <TGWi> Mu_: ten levels of gold: free
15:53:47 <Mu_> TGWi what exactly did you give up to gain the gold
15:53:55 <TGWi> ten levels of gold
15:54:11 <casmith789> "gold is free" is like saying the orb of zot is free
15:54:21 <TGWi> you just find it on the ground, of course iti s
15:54:26 <dpeg> well, I think you see where I am coming from
15:54:27 <monky> I'd have the money by the time I'm worried about resists
15:54:28 <casmith789> oh yeah, sure I had to beat 3 branches and 27 levels, but I didn't lose anything
15:54:44 <monky> casmith789: item destruction!!
15:54:51 <casmith789> monky: you'd also have a leather armour of rF+ from orc
15:54:51 <TGWi> ror should be like 500-600
15:55:02 <syllogism> i think it should be more
15:55:06 <TGWi> magic robes should be like 200-300
15:55:06 <syllogism> 800-1000 even
15:55:06 <dpeg> same here
15:55:10 <casmith789> make it like 1600
15:55:17 <Mu_> you seem to misunderstand that you were going to clear those 10 dlvls anyway
15:55:28 <monky> I'd pay 1600 just to avoid having to wear every glowy robe ugh
15:55:29 <TGWi> you were going to clear that zot and three rune vaults anyway
15:55:29 <dpeg> RoR is something you actively save for.
15:55:31 <casmith789> because that's about what platemail costs
15:56:10 <casmith789> why is heavy armour so expensive though :/
15:56:13 <dpeg> casmith789: plain, without ego
15:56:20 <dpeg> we didn't talk about rF plate yet :)
15:56:20 <Mu_> tgwi ...to get the orb. you don't go out of your way to earn gold. you go out of your way to earn the orb.
15:56:33 <TGWi> how is this relevant at all
15:56:36 <casmith789> rF plate costs too much already
15:56:52 <monky> some vaults make you go out of your way to get gold
15:56:58 <TGWi> also yes
15:57:00 <dpeg> My goal is to make spending choices a little more interesting. This started with bazaars and hopefully there's more to come
15:57:02 <monky> and grinding pan/abyss is going out of your way, for what that's worth
15:57:08 <TGWi> anyone who does orc is going out of their way to get gold
15:57:14 <monky> that too
15:57:16 <casmith789> there is a reason why gold acquirement is one of the best acquirements at the moment
15:57:27 <dpeg> monky: Abyss/Pan is not the answer, I don't think it'll stay liek this.
15:57:31 <Mu_> lol
15:57:37 <dpeg> Mu_: lol on what?
15:57:45 <monky> dpeg: oh good
15:58:02 <casmith789> just wondering, why is pan grinding a problem?
15:58:37 <Mu_> i have never acquired gold
15:58:38 <dpeg> the "grinding"
15:58:49 <dpeg> Mu_: but you would consider it if you wanted to buy something, right?
15:59:14 <casmith789> dpeg: if you can grind pan, you can win the game
15:59:22 <Mu_> i doubt it because you usually find way more gold than you need
15:59:35 <syllogism> the ones grinding pan are doing it because they like it or at least consider it worthwhile for some other reason, which isn't to win the game. They've already won by that time
15:59:38 <casmith789> it is another minigame that no-one does before they win for the first time, so really it's adding variety for the same game
16:00:19 <Mu_> i think you'd struggle to find a normal game that ended with a low amount of gold on the player
16:00:21 <casmith789> abyss scumming is different because you can scum that
16:00:23 <dpeg> casmith789: you're the of the faction who says "if you don't like it, don't do it".
16:00:37 <syllogism> but grinding pan isn't perfect play
16:00:44 <syllogism> you are more likely to die by grinding
16:00:49 <casmith789> grinding pan is *harder* than zot
16:00:56 <casmith789> grinding abyss is *easier* than zot
16:01:04 <casmith789> this is why abyss is a problem and pan isn't imo
16:01:23 <syllogism> pan should be more difficult though
16:01:57 <monky> there is incentive for grinding pan: ziggurats, demonic rune collections
16:02:03 <monky> (for what it's worth)
16:02:39 <Zannick> each demonic rune is a point in the tournament
16:02:54 <syllogism> collecting demonic runes is like collecting scrolls of random uselessness, pointless
16:02:55 <Zannick> get several thousand of them, win the tournament
16:02:58 <dpeg> syllogism: my proposal is to make it progressively more difficult
16:03:23 <monky> making it more difficult over time would make demonic rune collection more meaningful too
16:03:31 <Zannick> scrolls of paper are more useless
16:03:34 <dpeg> 17156 dpeg the Cutthroat (level 12, 0/61 HPs)
16:03:38 <dpeg> my best Spring game :(
16:03:48 <Zannick> random uselessness sometimes makes butterflies
16:04:21 <casmith789> dpeg: I actually think that would encourage pan farming :)
16:04:47 <Zannick> if it's progressively more difficult the payoff should progressively increase
16:05:00 <casmith789> [ziggurats?]
16:06:02 <monky> I'd link a post I made on forum on the subject but the linky thing seems to vanish on thanking
16:06:05 <dpeg> casmith789: Pan farming? Why?
16:06:18 <casmith789> because you could show how strong you were by doing more levels
16:06:28 <monky> that's not farming though
16:06:31 <casmith789> also it would be optimal to clear the entire level
16:06:31 <monky> is it?
16:07:01 <monky> any more optimal than currently?
16:07:19 <dpeg> there's no talk of increasing loot or anything
16:07:32 <casmith789> well if it gets harder you want more exp before continuing
16:08:15 <monky> just dive as usual in normal play
16:08:19 <bhaak> you know it sucks that CDO loses the player race setting from the last game when you update the build on the server!
16:09:07 <bhaak> either you update less or I die less!
16:09:26 <casmith789> that isn't a bug because it doesn't appear in stable versions :)
16:09:29 <dpeg> bhaak: :)
16:10:02 <Zannick> does it lose the player class setting, too?
16:10:19 <Blackflare> huh what reason would a +0 cloak give 2 ac?
16:10:37 <dpeg> dwarven?
16:10:45 <bhaak> Zannick: I think so. default would be human fighter
16:10:47 <Blackflare> no plain cloak
16:11:06 <monky> are you sure it's not something else giving you 2 ac?
16:11:16 <Blackflare> I take it off, 5 ac, I put it on, 7 ac
16:11:31 <Zannick> armor skill?
16:11:36 <Blackflare> 4
16:12:10 <monky> armour skill affecting non-body armour is a bit wacky
16:12:24 <Zannick> wouldn't at 4 anyhow
16:12:39 <Blackflare> does it have hidden decimals on ac? maybe it tipped it over from 5.9
16:12:56 <Zannick> ?? cloak
16:12:57 <Henzell> cloak[1/1]: +1 AC. Comes in poison resistance, magic resistance, darkness (evoke to turn invis temporarily), and {preservation}. When you're splashed with acid, the hp damage increases for every equipment slot on which you're not wearing something. A cloak, however, reduces the chance of that happening per slot to 50%.
16:13:54 <Blackflare> well whatever, ill take my magic cloak
16:14:57 <Blackflare> lol now I found a gold dragon hide on d3
16:15:00 <Blackflare> crawl is fucking with me
16:16:29 <dpeg> Blackflare: do you play on CDO?
16:16:31 <Blackflare> nah
16:16:35 <dpeg> local?
16:16:36 <Blackflare> tiles for life
16:16:50 <dpeg> could you make a save, copy it, and upload to Mantis?
16:16:55 <Blackflare> sure
16:17:10 <Blackflare> what file do I need to upload?
16:17:28 <Napkin> the .cs thingy
16:17:30 <Blackflare> is it just the
16:17:34 <Blackflare> ok
16:17:34 -!- ZChris13 has joined ##crawl-dev
16:17:44 <dpeg> thank you!
16:18:00 <Blackflare> got a link to mantis?
16:18:08 <Zannick> ?? mantis
16:18:08 <Henzell> mantis[1/1]: The replacement for sourceforge, mantis can be found at http://crawl.develz.org/mantis
16:18:09 <Napkin> crawl.develz.org/mantis
16:18:18 <Zannick> Henzell: botsnack
16:18:26 <Napkin> :D
16:19:58 <Blackflare> really? you can only have one person with the name mark?
16:20:15 <Zannick> username?
16:20:20 <Blackflare> no, real name
16:20:28 <Blackflare> it said I couldnt use my real name because it was in use
16:20:42 <Blackflare> it doesnt matter but it is silly
16:20:52 <Zannick> you tried to use "mark" as your username?
16:21:02 <Blackflare> no
16:21:04 <dpeg> don't worry, just use Blackflare and keep going
16:21:09 <Blackflare> I tried to fill mark out as my real name
16:21:20 <upsy> there's a "real name" field in the options
16:21:28 <Zannick> i don't recall needing to add my real name and i don't see it now
16:21:41 * Zannick shrug
16:21:59 <dpeg> but you can, if you want
16:21:59 <greensnark> AC math has a hidden fractional part
16:22:03 <upsy> APPLICATION ERROR #807
16:22:04 <upsy> The "Real Name" chosen matches another user's login name. Please choose another.
16:22:05 <dpeg> Blackflare obviously couldn't
16:22:06 <upsy> strange error
16:22:16 <dpeg> greensnark: so nto a bug? It is irritating, though
16:22:18 <Napkin> why strange?
16:22:20 <Blackflare> oh
16:22:25 <Blackflare> should I not bother with this then?
16:22:28 <dpeg> not sure
16:22:30 <dpeg> smells like bug
16:22:35 <upsy> i don't see why it would matter
16:22:37 <casmith789> I don't think it's a bug
16:22:40 <Blackflare> well putting on a cloak and gaining 2 ac is pretty odd
16:22:43 <greensnark> dpeg: Yes, but less irritating than the old effect where you suddenly got double the armour value from all your minor armor items at skill 15
16:22:46 <casmith789> you can see the ac after, you can see the ac before
16:23:15 <Eronarn> i forget, does the armour description specify that it's 'base' AC
16:23:21 <Eronarn> because if not it should
16:23:27 <dpeg> greensnark: yes, I recall
16:23:33 <dpeg> Blackflare: ok, sorry for the alarm
16:23:42 <Eronarn> or maybe a line like 'Before your skills, this item has the following statistics:'
16:23:44 <Blackflare> I figured it was some fractoinal thing
16:23:54 <Blackflare> no it doesnt ero
16:24:08 <Blackflare> it just says armor rating: 1
16:24:18 <TGWi> he's saying what it should be
16:24:20 <TGWi> this is ##crawl-dev
16:24:23 <Blackflare> yes
16:24:26 <Blackflare> he asked if it did
16:24:32 <Blackflare> [17:23] <Eronarn> i forget, does the armour description specify that it's 'base' AC
16:24:36 <Eronarn> yeah i'm not firing up crawl just to check that
16:24:48 <Eronarn> i'm playing tome; it is making me appreciate crawl so much more
16:25:08 <Eronarn> we're light years ahead of them on user friendliness
16:25:15 <dpeg> Eronarn: tell us about it, so we don't have to play. I did look at the screenshots at least.
16:25:20 <ZChris13> a - a +1 elven robe (worn) A cloth robe. Armour rating: 2       Evasion modifier: +0 It is well-crafted and unobstructive. It fits elves well. It can be maximally enchanted to +2. It weighs around 5.0 aum.
16:25:31 <upsy> i refuse to play tome4 until it is out of the "release a million betas" stage
16:25:38 <dpeg> Was surprised they have this "it is 5th Charmander of the 3rd eon after sunset" nonsense
16:25:48 <ZChris13> Just use tab
16:25:51 <ZChris13> it's cool
16:26:24 <dpeg> but I guess this makes individual games feel more like part of a grand plot
16:26:37 <dpeg> what happened to incursion, btw?
16:26:40 <TGWi> any game that uses charmanders as a unit of time is awesome
16:26:41 <ZChris13> DF does that too
16:26:44 <TGWi> incursion is still there I think
16:26:45 <Eronarn> dpeg: overworld is exactly like ADOM - in fact it is my guess the game is ADOM inspired, since some of the hidden areas are the same as ADOM's
16:26:53 <TGWi> DF is not a roguelike; it's for insane people
16:26:58 <TGWi> more so than roguelikes
16:27:10 <Eronarn> it works well in that genre of game, but crawl's approach is fine
16:27:18 <upsy> are they actually charmanders
16:27:24 <ZChris13> No
16:27:26 <dpeg> upsy: no, I made that up :)
16:27:34 <upsy> i assumed so at first
16:27:38 <TGWi> charmander is the new name of aut
16:27:43 <upsy> +1
16:27:43 <TGWi> thanks dpeg
16:27:45 <Eronarn> races matter a lot less, mostly just an XP penalty and basic stats, but they also provide a racial bonus that can't be gotten in other ways
16:28:00 <dpeg> Eronarn: maps are huge?
16:28:13 <Eronarn> classes are a huge deal; they have some overlapping abilities but mostly unique ones. Diablo style talent trees. fun, but not well balances.
16:28:41 <dpeg> I guess I should read a little bit about TOME.
16:28:49 <Eronarn> maps are usually smaller than crawl; has some that might be larger. some great layouts, some awful ones. vaults exist but aren't nearly as good as crawl's
16:28:52 <ZChris13> alchemist is fun
16:29:10 <Blackflare> what is tome ero?
16:29:18 <Eronarn> the interface is pretty good but there are some very anti-user design choices
16:29:34 <ZChris13> Like those buttons
16:29:40 <ZChris13> The buttons in the bottom right
16:29:47 <Eronarn> 1) lots of stuff wastes a turn - bumping into a wall, trying to pick up items when there aren't any there, using an ability that requires a certain widget when you don't have that widget
16:30:02 <ZChris13> There isn't an autoexplore
16:30:08 <Eronarn> 2) targeting system will fire into walls if you try and shoot around corners
16:30:12 <dpeg> the stats are angband inspired?
16:30:12 <TGWi> !learn add bad_ideas browsing menus takes turns
16:30:13 <Henzell> bad ideas[2722/2722]: browsing menus takes turns
16:30:32 <Eronarn> 3) you select targets with numpad, but you *need* to use mouse if you want to not aim directly at a target - which you have to do often, because...
16:30:41 <ZChris13> You can use shift bro
16:30:47 <ZChris13> Shift and numpad
16:30:49 <ZChris13> try it
16:30:51 <Eronarn> 4) bolt spells let you fire around corners, or even out of line of sight
16:30:51 <Eronarn> ah
16:30:53 <Eronarn> good to know
16:30:59 <upsy> no autoexplore is why i can't play other roguelikes
16:31:08 <Eronarn> it has autotravel, but yeah, no autoexplore
16:31:16 <Blackflare> autoexplore has spoiled me
16:31:20 <ZChris13> Yes
16:31:24 <Eronarn> and the autotravel is bad - it stops any time it gets next to an item, or on top of an item, or the same for 'interesting terrain'
16:31:38 <ZChris13> But it doesn't stop you if you see an item
16:31:42 <Eronarn> the map is also very bad, nothing like shift-x
16:31:54 <ZChris13> You have to actually be next to an item for it to stop you
16:32:09 <Eronarn> no exclusions, no searching for stuff
16:32:17 <dpeg> well, the game is young, isn't it?
16:32:24 <TGWi> how do you make a map worse than shift-x?
16:32:26 <dpeg> They (he?) can polish it.
16:32:29 <TGWi> like, not that shift-x is bad, but it's a map
16:32:31 <TGWi> you can't mess that up
16:32:47 <Eronarn> TGWi: items are marked on the map... and disappear when you're out of their LOS
16:32:48 <casmith789> [maprot]
16:32:52 <TGWi> oh god
16:32:57 <dpeg> TGWi: you can. For example, Crawl's X-map colours are somewhat messed up.
16:32:59 <Eronarn> even though the items *keep showing up on the screen*
16:33:14 <Eronarn> you have to shift+click drag the viewport around, rather than using the minimap
16:33:23 <TGWi> dpeg: has there been any thought given to making X colours the same as viewport?
16:33:25 <dpeg> bhaak: this is kerio in action?
16:33:35 <dpeg> TGWi: yes. For some reason we never did it.
16:33:40 <TGWi> hm
16:33:55 <Eronarn> it's not crippling - the levels are generally a lot more boring than crawl's - but there is so much room for improvement
16:33:58 <TGWi> I guess you'd need to visualise exclusions
16:34:02 <dpeg> I think by now I understand the initial design (must be Linley'S): You want the two modes (normal vs X map) to contrast starkly.
16:34:17 <TGWi> well, the X map doesn't have the character pane
16:34:35 <Eronarn> also the LOS algorithm is annoying: it isn't mutual, and you can sometimes fire at squares you don't have LOS to, or not be able to fire at squares you do have LOS to
16:34:39 <dpeg> I want the same for descriptions: in shops, buying vs descriptions etc.
16:34:47 <Blackflare> what happened with linley? what does he do now?
16:34:48 <dpeg> it should be clear at a glance in which mode you are
16:34:55 <dpeg> Blackflare: he codes games
16:34:56 <TGWi> linley moved on but makes shmups now
16:35:00 <Blackflare> ah
16:35:06 <dpeg> Cannot go wrong with shmups.
16:35:06 <TGWi> pretty good ones
16:35:11 <TGWi> well, you could
16:35:13 <Blackflare> does he look in on stonesoup at all?
16:35:22 <TGWi> he showed up once a while ago
16:35:26 <dpeg> Blackflare: he is aware of what we're doing and is fine with it.
16:35:33 <Blackflare> thats cool
16:35:37 <TGWi> not much contact beyond that but I imagine he checks once in a while
16:35:37 <dpeg> I inform him everytime we release a new version :)
16:35:44 <TGWi> does he reply at all?
16:35:49 <Zannick> major or minor? ;)
16:35:55 <dpeg> major, of course
16:36:00 <dpeg> TGWi: yes, he did once
16:36:11 <casmith789> hurr. felids. I remember when you had to pray before you chopped food up on your ogremage that didn't autoexplore.
16:36:12 <bhaak> dpeg: that's kerio with handbrakes. He can be worse :)
16:36:16 <dpeg> He visited ##crawl once. Cleverly disguised as Yredelemnul,
16:36:21 <dpeg> bhaak: haha :)
16:36:25 <TGWi> then he changed to linleyh
16:36:29 <TGWi> !seen linleyh
16:36:30 <Henzell> I last saw LinleyH at Thu Apr  3 13:12:02 2008 UTC (about 2y 40w 1d 9h 24m 27s ago) quitting with message "ChatZilla 0.9.81 [Firefox 2.0.0.13/2008031114]".
16:36:31 <bhaak> lol
16:36:36 <TGWi> quite a while ago
16:36:41 <TGWi> lol, firefox 2
16:36:46 <Blackflare> haha
16:36:55 <dpeg> yes, he only was here once
16:37:13 <Zannick> !seen yredelemnul
16:37:14 <Henzell> I last saw Yredelemnul at Fri Oct  1 01:14:06 2010 UTC (14w 21h 23m 8s ago) quitting with message Quit: leaving.
16:37:40 <dpeg> must be some new yrdy :)
16:37:53 <Blackflare> for what its worth I think you guys have done a great job with crawl. Its definitely one of the more friendly open source projects out there
16:37:57 <TGWi> maybe he dropped in again :P
16:38:04 <dpeg> TGWi: or that
16:38:13 <dpeg> and no one was in there to recognise him :)
16:38:21 <dpeg> Blackflare: many thanks
16:39:13 <dpeg> Blackflare: If only the list of things we have to repair (old and new issues) and of pieces we want to add would be so large :)
16:39:47 <Zannick> dpeg: hm, nope
16:39:58 <Zannick> 1372:20:48 -!- dpeg is now known as Yredelemnul
16:39:58 <Zannick> 1373:21:14 -!- Yredelemnul [~dpeg@dis.angband.pl] has quit [Quit: leaving]
16:40:02 <Blackflare> haha
16:40:07 <Zannick> from my logs of that :)
16:40:46 <Zannick> some new yrdy indeed
16:41:00 <dpeg> I completely forgot :)
16:41:26 <TGWi> haha
16:41:28 <Blackflare> if you ever run out of things to fix/add then what would you do with your free time dpeg
16:41:35 <TGWi> maybe dpeg is linley henzell in disguise
16:41:41 <dpeg> Blackflare: don't worry
16:41:54 <dpeg> a project like this is never finished
16:42:09 <Zannick> if dpeg runs out of things to fix/add, he comes up with more
16:42:11 <Blackflare> which is a good thing, Its more fun when a game is constantly changing
16:42:17 <TGWi> dpeg has kids; I'm not sure free time is a thing
16:42:19 <casmith789> Blackflare: play nethack :P
16:42:21 <greensnark> Software is finished only when the last user is dead
16:42:24 <Blackflare> ugh nethack
16:42:24 <dpeg> not sure the Nethackers would agree, Blackflare
16:42:36 <Blackflare> theres a reason I dont like nethack very much!
16:42:52 <dpeg> greensnark: this is a very inclusive definition, I like it
16:43:06 <casmith789> why are there two weeks of walrus appreciation :( I finished it last week!
16:43:07 <Zannick> go back in time to 0.6 and ask people who use heavy armour :P
16:43:11 <Blackflare> I wonder if anyone still uses webtv
16:43:22 <TGWi> walruses are never done being appreciated
16:43:41 <ZChris13> APPRECIATE THEM
16:43:55 <Blackflare> I appreciate walruses almost on a nightly basis
16:44:15 -!- greensnark changed the topic of ##crawl-dev to: Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to  ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki | Long stuff to pastebin.ca please | It is better to have a horrible ending than to have horrors without end.
16:44:32 <TGWi> that's morose
16:44:38 <Blackflare> http://www.toothpastefordinner.com/120607/its-the-ambien-walrus-again.gif
16:45:08 <Zannick> so there should be an ending to the abyss?
16:45:13 <ZChris13> NEVA
16:45:32 <Blackflare> it goes on, and on, and on, and on and on
16:45:34 <TGWi> no, that would be worse than horrors without end
16:46:49 <greensnark> I don't remember who came up with that line but I used it once when I was asked to make a closing speech at the school function
16:46:55 <greensnark> My theory was that nobody would notice
16:47:03 <greensnark> Unfortunately people noticed
16:47:23 <Zannick> :<
16:47:45 <dpeg> greensnark: awesome
16:48:19 <ZChris13> Awesome
16:48:31 <dpeg> One of the points that Linley brought up when he came around was that the Abyss implementation was not at all what he wanted.
16:48:35 <Blackflare> my highschool graduation a bunch of people inflated beach balls under chairs and tossed them around, they were swiftly captured and dispatched within like 20 seconds. Bunch of killjoys
16:48:38 <dpeg> It should have been actually infinite.
16:48:39 <casmith789> at which point you stopped running your fingers down the chalkboard constantly but instead filled the entire room of water?
16:48:55 <casmith789> *with
16:50:20 <TGWi> due: center or centre?
16:50:42 <Zannick> Blackflare: mine, too!
16:50:57 <Blackflare> hi five
16:51:08 <Zannick> except sometimes they got them back, then the teachers popped them, then the deflated beach balls were tossed around
16:51:26 <Zannick> it was hilarious but sad
16:51:41 <Blackflare> my school was very anti-fun
17:04:30 -!- psyshvl has joined ##crawl-dev
17:04:57 <Blackflare> whats the formula for figuring out how much armor skill I need to efficiently make use of a piece of heavy armor
17:05:20 <monky> to help with penalties or bonuses
17:05:21 <dpeg> no idea, but that's more a question for ##crawl :)
17:05:53 <Blackflare> oh oops, I forgot this wasnt ##crawl actually
17:06:27 <ZChris13> So how about riding enraged grizzly bears into battle if you worship trog?
17:07:19 <coolio_mc> !learn add bad_ideas animal mounts
17:07:19 <Henzell> bad ideas[2723/2723]: animal mounts
17:07:40 <due> hi
17:07:42 <due> TGWi: what?
17:07:45 <due> TGWi: centre
17:07:48 <dpeg> due: hi
17:08:08 <dpeg> There are riding spriggans now, though. Won't be long until players want that too.
17:08:27 <monky> nethack had mounts, right?
17:08:37 <monky> had/has
17:08:48 <Zannick> !learn add bad_ideas non-animal mounts
17:08:49 <Henzell> bad ideas[2724/2724]: non-animal mounts
17:09:03 <due> dpeg: We won'tgive them it ;)
17:09:09 <ZChris13> But trog
17:09:13 <ZChris13> RAEG GRIZZLY BEAR
17:09:28 <due> ZChris13: Please calm down or take you enthusiasm to ##crawl.
17:09:29 <dpeg> monky: yes, one of last major additions IIRC
17:10:01 <dpeg> monky: the question is: what does it give? Same with two-weaponing. Sure, it's cool. But what else?
17:10:07 <due> You get a horse if you're a knight, orsomething like this?
17:10:31 <bhaak> due: yes, from the start, but anybody can ride if you find a saddle
17:10:43 <Blackflare> make a centaur character, save it at level 27, then start another character and you can ride your centaur
17:10:43 <monky> I have no idea what it gives (I am not a nethack player; I hate nethack); same with twoweaponing
17:10:45 <due> Don't you have to tame a horse first?
17:11:07 <due> Two weapons means we have to rebalance all the current weapons so you can use two of them.
17:11:08 <monky> throw apples/carrots at horses to tame them, right?
17:12:04 <due> Something like that.
17:12:13 <dpeg> bhaak: what is your opinion on riding in Nethack? Balance-wise.
17:12:34 -!- Kurper has joined ##crawl-dev
17:13:03 <dpeg> due: two-weaponing _might_ have a niche to make high Dex fighters viable in their own way. But if we do that, we can be very strict: only can two-weapon swords etc.
17:13:20 <ZChris13> Quickblades and such
17:13:27 <ZChris13> very specific weapons
17:13:31 <due> dpeg: Yes, but that's an individual subset of characters.
17:13:44 <dpeg> yes
17:13:44 <due> dpeg: We can give them negatives that offset the double-bonus of two wielding or whatever.
17:13:55 <dpeg> but that's a loooong way from here
17:13:57 <due> dpeg: If we give it "to everyone" it inherently becomes unbalanced.
17:14:07 <monky> twoweaponing dwhips would probably be too powerful but the mental image of wielding two whips is so amazing
17:14:17 <ZChris13> No it doesn't work
17:14:39 <ZChris13> dagger and sabre or something would be cool
17:15:07 <dpeg> ZChris13: yes, stuff like this. And efficiency depends on Dex (rather than a two-weapon skill).
17:15:11 <monky> if it was sbl-only that might give the skill another niche
17:15:21 <ZChris13> Yeah
17:15:23 <monky> by skill I mean school
17:15:24 <ZChris13> Sbl only
17:15:28 <monky> as in weapon school
17:15:39 <ZChris13> Quickblade + dagger
17:15:54 <monky> quickblade of pain + quickblade of distortion
17:15:59 <ZChris13> exactly
17:16:00 <monky> (this is why it is imba)
17:16:26 <ZChris13> it just makes spriggans even more crazy over the top
17:16:34 <TGWi> dual wielding would be nice if it were balanced
17:16:51 <TGWi> 1) because it's 'cool' 2) more choices for what to do with your hands
17:16:52 <monky> I doubt it's possible to balance at all
17:17:43 <TGWi> well, it's definitely possible to balance
17:17:48 <bhaak> dpeg: I actually know not enough to have a well-funded opinion. knights are somewhat cool in principle, but the general alignment, the poorly implemented lance mechanism and for the other races the rarely found saddles.
17:17:49 <Mu_> both weapons deal 1/2 damage
17:18:00 <monky> Mu_: use additive brands, like disto or pain
17:18:13 <ZChris13> elec?
17:18:16 <TGWi> it's just hard to determine at what point it would be comparable to single-wielding or using a two hander
17:18:17 <monky> that too
17:18:19 <ZChris13> freezing/flaming
17:18:28 <Mu_> pain is overpowered on one weapon so
17:18:45 <TGWi> well, you could choose randomly which weapon to use
17:18:46 <TGWi> or something
17:18:50 <ZChris13> What is a double sword anyway?
17:19:09 <TGWi> 1) randomly choose attacks 2) slightly delay reduction if you attack in consecutive turns
17:19:09 <monky> Double sword
17:19:09 <due> ZChris13: Like the double ended lightsabre in phantom Menace.
17:19:09 <monky> A magical weapon with two razor-sharp blades.
17:19:09 <monky> Accuracy rating: -1    Damage rating: 16   Base attack delay: 150%
17:19:15 <ZChris13> ohgod
17:19:25 <ZChris13> what in the world is a triple sword then
17:19:28 <due> ZChris13: A trible sword is shaped like a triskelion *in my opinion*.
17:19:29 <dpeg> bhaak: ok
17:19:33 <due> ZChris13: So kkind of like a Y shape.
17:19:36 <due> ZChris13: HOWEVER
17:19:39 <dpeg> bhaak: if you play knights, do you #jump all the time?
17:19:40 <TGWi> they're shaped like pyramids
17:19:46 <TGWi> obviously
17:19:48 <Blackflare> they have tiles
17:19:50 <Blackflare> that show them
17:19:51 <ZChris13> It's really 3 swords
17:19:54 <TGWi> due is duelusional
17:19:56 <due> ZChris13: In crawl is it actually represented as more like three swords stuck together.
17:20:00 <Blackflare> yep
17:20:02 <Mu_> triple sword is like a wet razor that has three blades
17:20:14 <due> Or a swordified trident.
17:20:16 <TGWi> and I always thought double swords were two swords stuck together
17:20:19 <TGWi> Mu_: mine has four
17:20:20 <TGWi> crawl is lame
17:20:28 <ZChris13> It's three swords you hold two in your hands and one in your mouth
17:20:34 <ZChris13> obviously
17:20:43 <Mu_> i just realised this is -dev
17:20:49 <Zannick> i always pictured it as three blades
17:20:58 <TGWi> I actually like my idea for dual-wielding :(
17:21:11 <Zannick> or a triangular blade (which wouldn't work very well)
17:21:24 <Blackflare> http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/2306/mainho.png <- double and triple swords
17:21:39 <monky> tiles die forever
17:21:40 <ZChris13> no that's stupid
17:21:43 <upsy> that's hilarious
17:21:47 <TGWi> that triple sword is awesome
17:21:52 <casmith789> dpeg: no.
17:21:59 <ZChris13> awesomely silly
17:22:06 <due> It is -dev so take your silly and stuff to ##crawl, please.
17:22:27 <Zannick> unless we start talking about dev stuff
17:22:31 <TGWi> -dev is for serious stuff like walrus appreciatoin
17:22:35 <TGWi> appreciation*
17:22:38 <Zannick> like implementing quadruple and quintuple swords
17:22:42 <ZChris13> Thank you TGWi
17:22:50 <due> And discussing TGWi's intolerable spelling. :p
17:22:55 <Blackflare> why stop at 5
17:23:04 <due> Actually, ##crawl-dev is supposed to be our quiet place from crazy ideas.
17:23:12 <bhaak> dpeg: I don't #jump a lot. but for escaping it's great
17:23:12 <ZChris13> Giant spiked swords
17:23:21 <TGWi> come on, crazy ideas are a requirement for entry
17:23:24 <bhaak> exponential swords?
17:23:34 <TGWi> ??giant spiked holy scourge
17:23:35 <Henzell> giant spiked holy scourge[1/1]: 57 base damage, 15 delay.
17:23:35 <dpeg> due: btw, what do you think is a good price for bad items in our shops?
17:23:42 <ZChris13> 1
17:23:56 <due> dpeg: Utterly worthless items, 1. With other "bad" items it really depends on the scale of bad.
17:24:01 <ZChris13> haggle up from one
17:24:08 <due> ZChris13: Oh, sorry, have we changed bodiesor something?
17:24:12 <TGWi> due: well, people buy them for the identification
17:24:31 <TGWi> imo 10-30 is fair, dpeg wants higher I think
17:24:46 <due> dpeg: How much higher?
17:24:55 * due open for change.
17:25:06 <monky> (please not higher than actual good items)
17:25:37 <casmith789> well good items start at about 12-16
17:25:42 <dpeg> due: I want them to be more expensive, so it's not trivial to just buy them for id purposes.
17:25:44 <ZChris13> Yeah. If the storekeeper knows, why can't he tell us?
17:25:50 <upsy> good items could be made higher
17:25:53 <dpeg> Now the question is what a good price would be.
17:26:57 <due> dpeg: Well, can you give some example items?
17:27:10 <dpeg> we've been arguing about prices in the range of 10 to 100, for strong poison for example :)
17:27:12 <due> dpeg: Also, we need to think about what impact it will have on scoring.
17:27:23 <casmith789> due: probably none :)
17:27:36 <due> casmith789: ...oh, you've looked at the code?
17:27:45 <dpeg> due: scoring =)
17:27:50 <casmith789> I know the score formula
17:27:57 <dpeg> this won't matter
17:28:02 <Mu_> we move away from market value towards labour value. poison must be quite difficult to make and should therefore be about as expensive as a healing potion.
17:28:16 <casmith789> gold has ~no value compared to runes & turns
17:28:17 <dpeg> we're talking about changing prices in the minimal section
17:28:21 <due> And it scores item compared to cost?
17:28:23 <dpeg> Mu_: yes!
17:28:33 <ZChris13> yeah. If I take my 100 !poison with me out of the dungeon, how will it affect the score.
17:28:37 <dpeg> due: a more serious issue are gods.
17:28:43 <casmith789> it will make minimal difference
17:28:43 <TGWi> potions of poison are actually thalidomide
17:28:46 <due> dpeg: Yes, like Nemelex specifically.
17:29:00 <dpeg> yes, that is what I meant :)
17:29:01 <TGWi> they were manufactured long ago but found to be harmful
17:29:04 <TGWi> so are now worthless
17:29:31 <casmith789> well... harmful for pregnant women. Others, not so much
17:29:44 <dpeg> due: my question is this: would you buy !strong poison (assuming you don't know it yet) for 10$? For 20$? For 60$?
17:30:10 <TGWi> all crawl characters are pregnant women
17:30:17 <TGWi> scratch that
17:30:17 <due> dpeg: I'd buy it at any price if I had the change to spare.
17:30:21 <TGWi> all crawl characters are fetuses
17:30:26 <TGWi> and potions of mutation are thalidomide
17:30:49 <due> Please take your stupid jokes and comments to ##crawl :p
17:30:54 <TGWi> due: I figure it'll save you a potion of healing or a scroll of ID in the best case
17:31:08 <TGWi> the identification, that is
17:31:08 <due> TGWi: Well, exactly
17:31:13 <OG17> I don't know why people would pay more than a non-trivial amount, given that bad potions aren't really all that bad
17:31:20 <due> TGWi: The other option is to make it cost the same amount.
17:31:24 <due> OG17: Transmuters, too.
17:31:28 <TGWi> of course, many characters can ignore even strong poison quickly
17:31:36 <due> OG17: potions stores are an instant source of "bad" potions if you find one early.
17:31:38 <TGWi> transmuters have an effectively limitless supply of poison and they already know what it looks like
17:31:51 <due> You can get degeneration, etc, for 1 gp if it's in the shop.
17:31:55 <due> Miasma yay!
17:31:55 <OG17> Tm gets more potions than it knows what to do with in my experience
17:31:59 <casmith789> the only way Tm are running out of potions is if they need degen or decay
17:32:04 <dpeg> it is about _not_ quaffing !CM or !exp randomly
17:32:16 <casmith789> sorry?
17:32:23 <TGWi> I could see decay at higher double-digits
17:32:29 <Mu_> i think just making them about the same as healing potions is fine
17:32:33 <TGWi> 80 maybe
17:32:46 <due> Mu_: Between 20 and 80 sounds about right, depending on the potion. We could scale them accordingly.
17:32:58 <Mu_> the only potion i'd have at single digits is potion of water
17:33:13 <TGWi> water at 1 is fair
17:33:18 <due> Mu_: Not evne then when I implement homunculus.
17:33:38 <due> dpeg: Another downside to homunculus: if it fails, you still lost the potion.
17:33:46 <dpeg> due: true
17:33:51 <TGWi> confusion 10, poison 20, strong poison 30, para 30, degen... 15
17:33:57 <Mu_> what is homunculus?
17:33:58 <TGWi> imo
17:34:03 <dpeg> due's new spell
17:34:03 <due> dpeg: The more I think about it the more I see ways to balance it.
17:34:09 <dpeg> yes!
17:34:12 <due> Mu_: Reagent based transmutation ally spell.
17:34:19 <ZChris13> oh haha score
17:34:32 <Mu_> amazing
17:34:33 <TGWi> due: what if there were a spell that turned sticks into snakes :P
17:34:38 <due> Mu_: You cast a spell on a potion. It starts fizzing and inside grows a homunculus. After two or three turns or so, it is "born" and it rushes out to help you.
17:34:50 <TGWi> oh dear
17:34:54 <due> :p
17:35:18 <Zannick> is the homunculus based on the potion itself?
17:35:21 <due> Mu_: The potion you use affects the end result. Potion of confusion: your homunculus ally is permaconfused. Potion of berserk rage: it won't last as long, but it will be berserk.
17:35:38 <Zannick> ah, cool
17:35:42 <ZChris13> how about poison?
17:35:43 <Mu_> will it only be potions?
17:35:45 <due> Mu_: They have "slowly dying", the duration of which is affected by the spell power. So they'll only last a certain number of turns before dying.
17:35:49 <TGWi> due: so you would use good potions to make homunculi?
17:35:52 <due> ZChris13: They're poisoned.
17:35:56 <TGWi> or whatever
17:36:01 <ZChris13> they don't poison things?
17:36:03 <OG17> they're made purely of a potion?
17:36:05 <due> TGWi: You can use either, but good potions have a positive effect.
17:36:16 <due> OG17: No, they were born in the potion. Slight difference.
17:36:26 <OG17> born of what?
17:36:31 <due> OG17: Flavour wise it means we can say "But they're a potion of poison! why would that kill them?"
17:36:33 <ZChris13> What if you use water
17:36:40 <due> ZChris13: Plain, boring homunculus.
17:36:41 <TGWi> vanilla homunculus?
17:36:53 <TGWi> (fr: potion of vanilla)
17:36:59 <due> Mmm vanilla.
17:37:01 <OG17> I just feel like there should be a corpse or chunks or something involved, I guess
17:37:03 <ZChris13> potion of porridge?
17:37:06 <OG17> something with more substance
17:37:14 <TGWi> potions have glass bottles presumably
17:37:18 <TGWi> or flasks or vials or whatever
17:37:40 <due> OG17: you're just using the potion as the incubator, basically. The spell creates the homunculus.
17:37:46 <Mu_> potion of gain level should do that mara thing and give you a clone of yourself as a pet.
17:37:46 <TGWi> also they're made of magic
17:38:08 <due> Mu_: I'm not sure how it'll react to gain <stat> or experience.
17:38:21 <ZChris13> Brilliance?
17:38:31 <TGWi> spellcasting homunculus
17:38:41 <ZChris13> Might, agility?
17:38:59 <monky> I kind of feel as if the really bad potions should be better than water, since they're rarer (with fulsome at least) and all
17:39:01 <TGWi> agility should get you a hyperactive, fast batty homunculus with high EV
17:39:10 <monky> and would have higher prices eventually I guess
17:39:15 <due> TGWi: Yes, something like that.
17:39:27 <dpeg> monky: I think the point is that you can generate countless bad potions, but the spell should work with good potions.
17:39:27 <due> monky: Erm, no. You have an endless supply of bad potions as a transmuter with fulsome.
17:39:34 <dpeg> Ha!
17:39:37 <monky> you also have endless water
17:39:42 <due> monky: Hence you need to have some sort of downside.
17:39:43 <monky> how bad is a plain homunculus?
17:39:45 <ZChris13> Like litterally endless
17:39:49 <due> Quite bad.
17:39:52 <TGWi> presumably vanilla homunculuses wouldn't be great
17:40:01 <casmith789> you have as much water as you want, same with poison, confusion
17:40:03 <due> It will be quite fraglie and short-lifed. Deliberately so.
17:40:04 <TGWi> keep in mind it's just a summon
17:40:07 <monky> due: how infinite is decay?
17:40:08 <TGWi> there's an entire school of them
17:40:08 <Zannick> homunculi
17:40:16 <TGWi> Zannick: I tried that
17:40:18 <TGWi> felt weird
17:40:25 <due> It's homunculi.
17:40:28 * Zannick shrug
17:40:48 <TGWi> imo latin plurals should be used by latin-speakers
17:40:50 <ZChris13> ZANNICK SGRUG!
17:41:06 <due> Shhh.
17:41:23 <due> We're not going to argue about Latin plurals either.
17:41:25 <dpeg> What now? Eternal silence? :)
17:41:27 <dpeg> yes
17:41:38 <due> Anyway, homunculus from water potion will be significantly worse from a homunculus from a good potion.
17:41:43 <due> But not quite as bad as a homunculus from a bad potion.
17:41:48 <TGWi> what would healing do? or heal wounds?
17:41:53 <dpeg> due: I am preparing this prices + shops article, that's why I asked,.
17:41:57 <due> Increase HP and duration, possibly.
17:42:13 <due> dpeg: Well, with homunculus at least, I think the prices of the "bad" potions should go up.
17:42:17 <dpeg> positive potions should have a strong effect on the homunculus
17:42:22 <TGWi> a thought: unlimited duration would be safe with reagents
17:42:26 <TGWi> maybe limit to one
17:42:28 <casmith789> presumably duration won't matter much
17:42:32 <dpeg> due: I just asked b/c of the id minigame.
17:42:32 <TGWi> okay, no it won't be
17:42:36 <Zannick> is there a wiki page or something with all the effects listed so we don't have to ask for each of them? :)
17:42:43 <due> ZChris13: There will be.
17:42:48 <due> Erm, Zannick, rather.
17:42:54 <due> dpeg: I don't think it'll affect the ID minigame that badly.
17:43:04 <due> dpeg: the ID minigame doesn't rely on your finding a shop, unlike NetHack.
17:43:13 <casmith789> what level is this spell?
17:43:21 <due> casmith789: Undeciedd yet, I'm still working out the details.
17:43:23 <dpeg> due: I want to affect the id minigame _positively_ by making bad potions more expensive than 1 gp :)
17:43:28 <casmith789> if it's not level 1 or 2 it will not affect the ID minigame at all
17:43:39 <dpeg> ah, you mean id'ing potions by spell
17:43:39 <due> casmith789: We're talking about potion costs, not the spell.
17:44:01 <dpeg> due: I never worried about that... we can just say that un'ided potions behave the same (weak, of course).
17:44:13 <due> Possibly: "you need to know the potion to get its effect", otherwise you have a random bad effect.
17:44:17 <dpeg> yes
17:44:25 <casmith789> sorry? why?
17:44:44 <TGWi> because you don't know how you need to make the homunculus
17:44:46 <casmith789> the flavour for that is confusing
17:44:56 <TGWi> or some other excuse flavour
17:45:02 <TGWi> it's not that bad
17:45:05 <due> Because you need to know all of the details to be able to creat ethe homunculus? There's plenty of flavour.
17:45:17 <due> How does evaporate work with unknown potions?
17:45:25 <casmith789> you can just use it
17:45:30 <monky> the same way it works with known potions
17:45:40 <due> Does it identify the potion, though?
17:45:42 <monky> no
17:45:56 <due> That's another option too, then, I guess.
17:46:10 <due> The idea is definitely still in the "planning" stages, though.
17:46:27 <Zannick> does it identify the potion if it creates a visible effect that makes it obvious what the potion was?
17:46:36 <TGWi> idea: the magic backfires and you still eat the potion's bad effect
17:47:03 <due> Zannick: Evaporate doesn't seem to.
17:47:20 <OG17> how strong would this guy have to be for people to burn a good potion on a single temporary ally?
17:47:33 <OG17> it'd seem to have a lot more synergy with fulsome's bad potions
17:47:37 <TGWi> something should be done about evap on un-IDed potions though
17:47:43 <due> OG17: It'll be quite good.
17:48:00 <due> OG17: Brilliance will result in a medium duration ally that can cast level 1/2 spells.
17:48:09 <TGWi> IDing them seems like a bit much, but using random effects is weird since you can get (say) decay pretty easily without IDing it
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17:48:34 <CIA-113> 03galehar * r992a0ca00dcb 10/crawl-ref/ (11 files in 3 dirs): Add a tile_layout_priority option.
17:48:36 <monky> how useful are level 1/2 spell casting allies
17:48:42 <TGWi> maybe homunculi from good potions could be permanent
17:48:50 <dpeg> the positive homunculi can be decent
17:49:06 <TGWi> it would be a possible path with zin
17:49:12 <dpeg> seriously stronger than the pathetic ones you get from bad potions
17:49:21 <due> I have to play with the numbers first.
17:49:26 <TGWi> since he has the intelligent ally buffs from recite now
17:49:32 <TGWi> or will if that patch gets applied
17:49:50 <monky> and the pathetic ones you get from water?
17:49:59 <due> Yes.
17:50:01 <TGWi> compromise: spanish plurals
17:50:02 <dpeg> monky: and bad potions
17:50:06 <monky> right
17:50:07 <TGWi> homuncúluses
17:50:45 <OG17> permanent is a better idea I think, you could summon demons if you wanted casting allies and get to keep your potions
17:50:58 <upsy> that spell is giving me bad ideas about mixing different potions together
17:51:14 <due> It's not a summoning spell.
17:51:18 <due> It's a transmutation.
17:51:22 <due> Does nobody read what I type?
17:51:32 <TGWi> I read what you type <3
17:51:35 <TGWi> except when I don't
17:51:37 <due> OG17: Spellcasting is only *one* possible result from the spell.
17:51:50 <due> The point is that you can use what potions you have on hand to customise the ally you're going to get.
17:52:32 <due> Now on that note, I'm going to get breakfast and stop justifying myself. I'm writing the spell and you can play it to your hearts' contents when it's on CDO and tweaks can be made them.
17:52:39 <TGWi> :D
17:52:46 <Zannick> :D
17:52:46 <OG17> I didn't say it wasn't tmut, it's that if you can do similar things the same thing for free with a different school I don't know how much use it'd get
17:52:47 <OG17> okay
17:52:57 <TGWi> what level/books were you thinking?
17:53:06 <Mu_> you should change sticks to snakes to pure tmut when it goes in because it bugs me that spell has summoning
17:53:08 <dpeg> galehar: awesome
17:53:12 <dpeg> galehar: tilists will love it
17:53:29 <due> galehar: yes, quite nice.
17:53:36 <dpeg> Mu_: yes
17:53:49 <galehar> :)
17:53:55 <dpeg> it is obviously possible to balance stuff that needs components
17:54:00 <upsy> do you still have to equip the sticks?
17:54:04 <due> Mu_: Summoning is a way of limiting the usefulness of the spell instead of getting permanent allies.
17:54:13 <monky> is sticks to snakes in wiz[sum] or am I thinking of wiz[frost]?
17:54:23 <due> Mu_: Another option is to revert them to the sticks they were when they time outinstead.
17:54:28 <due> dpeg: What do you think? -^
17:54:29 <TGWi> I don't think anyone would blink if the snakes disappeared despite being transmutations
17:54:29 <dpeg> the snakes can be made arbitrarily strong, Fedhas was shouted at because you need fruits (later it turned out the god is rather on the overpowered side), and same with potions to allies.
17:54:34 <monky> (wondering what a school change would do to it)
17:54:37 <OG17> you could just say the snakes shrivel away or something
17:54:43 <OG17> fedhas is rather overpowered?
17:54:47 <TGWi> giving the player more sticks after the snakes disappear kind of defeats the purpose
17:54:58 <due> TGWi: It wouldn't be more sticks.
17:55:20 <dpeg> due: I think it is much better to use up the sticks. Makes for harder choices and better interface. Otherwise it is just an ordinary spell in disguise.
17:55:26 <due> dpeg: Okay.
17:55:36 <dpeg> OG17: yes
17:55:41 <Mu_> the snake degenerates into a pile of grey ooze
17:55:44 <Mu_> ;p
17:55:45 <TGWi> more sticks than zero is what I mean
17:55:51 <dpeg> OG17: players have used oklobs to clear Zot:5
17:56:06 <OG17> well yes, they save up the entire game and splurge
17:56:20 <TGWi> dpeg: players have used a lot of things to clear zot:5; it doesn't necessarily mean anything is wrong
17:56:21 <dpeg> OG17: you don't have to like the god, but I don't understand the bile.
17:56:34 <OG17> what bile?  I like the god a lot
17:56:36 <dpeg> TGWi: many characters have a lot of trouble clearing Zot:5.
17:56:40 <dpeg> OG17: ah, sorry
17:56:51 * dpeg was in defensive mode already again :|
17:56:56 <TGWi> I mean, you can't say something is OP because it's possible to win with
17:57:04 <TGWi> otherwise people wouldn't win :P
17:57:08 <due> TGWi: Clearing Zot shoul dnot be easy.
17:57:28 <TGWi> shrug
17:58:08 <dpeg> TGWi: clearing Zot (in the sense of killing all monsters) is really hard, my 3-rune guys never manage. With Fedhas, you can just do it. 20 apples will probably do.
17:58:10 <TGWi> it takes investment but I'm not going to argue that using all your fruit on zot:5 is hard
17:59:08 <Zannick> i cleared zot in 0.4.5 with an mdfi
17:59:26 <Zannick> well, half of the zot vault, anyway
17:59:31 <due> Zannick: Heavy armour?
17:59:41 <Zannick> yep. gda
17:59:48 <due> Hence heavy armour got nerfed to death. :)
17:59:54 <Zannick> i mentioned 0.4.5 for a reason :)
18:00:00 <due> :D
18:00:13 <monky> it's pretty easy to power through to the orb with bia but it takes a lot of piety so you might have to flee and do elven halls or hive or something
18:00:18 <Zannick> i haven't gotten an fi since the nerf :/
18:00:23 <Zannick> !lg . fi
18:00:24 <Sequell> 72. jokeserver the Skirmisher (L3 DSFi), succumbed to a snake's poison on D:3 on 2010-08-09, with 122 points after 1487 turns and 0:05:56.
18:00:25 <dpeg> I was mostly reacting to the folks who said that (some of them subconsciously) "Fedhas uses a finite resource, so the god must be weak"
18:00:26 <Zannick> er
18:00:29 <Zannick> !lg . won fi
18:00:29 <Sequell> 3. jokeserver the Executioner (L27 HOFi), escaped with the Orb and 3 runes on 2009-08-30, with 1456226 points after 91453 turns and 6:15:08.
18:00:34 <dpeg> !won dpeg
18:00:34 <Sequell> dpeg has won 13 times in 1120 games (1.16%): 1xDDHe 1xDEIE 1xDrVM 1xGEAE 1xHDGl 1xKeSt 1xMDFi 1xMDPa 1xMiPr 1xNaCj 1xNaNe 1xOgFE 1xSpAs
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18:00:43 <dpeg> that MDFi in the tournament :)
18:01:05 <Zannick> you're very well-rounded
18:01:13 <Zannick> !won
18:01:13 <Sequell> Zannick has won 7 times in 328 games (2.13%): 3xMiPa 2xMDFi 1xHOFi 1xSpFE
18:01:23 <dpeg> testing!
18:01:30 <Zannick> 6x heavy armour, 1x caster
18:01:37 <due> !won
18:01:37 <Sequell> due has won 5 times in 1351 games (0.37%): 1xHOFi 1xMDCK 1xMDFi 1xMfCK 1xMiMo
18:02:08 <dpeg> although I seriously lack experience with summoners, Nemelex (even though I helped make that god), Gh, Mu, Hu.
18:02:08 <due> I do a lot of silly things though.
18:02:28 <due> dpeg: Did you see that someone did a writeup of the summoning spells?
18:02:39 <due> dpeg: And a comparison between them and the proposed hydra/dragon/etc?
18:02:56 <dpeg> due: of course, that was awesome. (RangerC)
18:03:18 <due> dpeg: I made some suggestions on how we could improve the spells that were highlighted as lacking.
18:03:48 <OG17> some of the writeup was pretty inaccurate, I added some comments
18:03:49 <dpeg> cool
18:05:14 <due> OG17: thanks, that helps a lot, actually
18:05:40 <due> OG17: I think haunt can easily be reimplented for this... simply give the monsters another enchantment for "one enemy only" and abjure them if that enemy goes away
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18:08:35 <Zannick> the whole ENCH system needs improvement, i think
18:08:45 <dpeg> everything does
18:08:54 <Zannick> before there are too many non enchantment ENCHs like shapeshifter
18:08:55 <due> Zannick: it's so useful though.
18:09:05 <due> Zannick: Why is this wrong?
18:09:16 <due> Or rather, what other way would you implement it?
18:09:35 <TGWi> are haunt targets forced to stay attacking their original target?
18:09:43 <TGWi> haunt summons, that is
18:09:46 <OG17> not currently
18:09:50 <Zannick> i would split that into some other monster-internal variable for state
18:10:05 <TGWi> if they get abjured after the target dies, they should be forced to keep attacking the target
18:10:33 <Zannick> eg, i've been thinking about an implementable for boulder beetles becoming boulders
18:10:44 <Zannick> i could do that with a new ENCH
18:10:48 -!- ZChris13__ has joined ##crawl-dev
18:11:03 <Zannick> i toyed around with a unique shapeshifter a while ago and i did that with a new ENCH
18:11:21 <Zannick> it just feels hacky to me, but that's just my two cents
18:12:01 -!- ZChris13 has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
18:12:02 <monky> the boulder part could be an enchantment and the rolling part could be a behaviour
18:12:14 -!- ZChris13__ is now known as ZChris13
18:12:17 <Zannick> true
18:12:31 <Zannick> my other option was making a monster boulder (but that's probably more hacky)
18:12:44 -!- ZChris13__ has joined ##crawl-dev
18:12:44 <Zannick> s/was/i've considered/
18:13:04 <galehar> well, there a plenty of stuff in monster enchantment that are not enchantments, but just a temporary status
18:13:13 <galehar> maybe we should just rename the thing
18:13:31 <Zannick> haha, i didn't consider that
18:13:52 <Zannick> that's probably a better idea
18:14:19 <galehar> the underlying mechanism is good
18:14:22 <galehar> and less work ;)
18:14:55 -!- ZChris13_ has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
18:15:13 <due> Zannick: Actually ,the solution is to just rename ENCH_XXX to "monster_durations".
18:15:36 <due> There are visibly external durations (such as slow, status effects, etc), and invisible internal durations (timers and so-on).
18:16:06 <due> Implementing another set of decaying attributes would be costly and duplicative when you already have a perfectly good framework in place.
18:16:11 <Zannick> i'm unfamiliar with the use of the word duration for status effects
18:16:18 <Zannick> plus some of them are permanent
18:16:51 -!- ZChris13 has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
18:16:56 -!- ZChris13__ is now known as ZChris13
18:17:30 <galehar> I guess duration like in the player class
18:17:41 <due> We use duratoins for the play.
18:18:30 <galehar> but if something is both in the monster and the player classes, shouldn't we move it to the actor class?
18:19:09 <due> galehar: Yes, that's also a good move.
18:19:26 <due> galehar: Unify ENCH and DUR. We can still have player-specific and monster-specific.
18:21:39 <galehar> I'm adding it to the code cleanup wiki page
18:26:59 <due> galehar: awesome
18:27:14 * due goes to rename holy dragons.
18:27:32 <due> dpeg: I've worked out the release title for 0.8 :D
18:30:01 <due> dpeg: "Girl With A Pearl Dragon" :D
18:30:19 <dpeg> Erolcha? :)
18:31:06 <due> hah :D
18:31:11 <due> actually, Vermeer pun.
18:31:20 <due> Now I just need to make a veneer/Vermeer pun and we'll be good
18:31:49 <due> I'm also totally inclined to rewrite the entirety of descript/monsters.txt using "this" instead of "a".
18:32:27 <dpeg> search and replace :P
18:35:28 <CIA-113> 03due * rfcdc7214fdea 10/crawl-ref/source/ (8 files in 3 dirs): Rename holy dragon to pearl dragon (OG17).
18:36:14 -!- galehar has quit [Quit: disconnect]
18:36:47 <due> OG17: I love you so much for suggesting and thus reminding me about pearl.
18:36:58 <OG17> ha, sure
18:37:21 <due> dpeg: What do you think about pearl dragon armour, were it the same weight and such as plain dragon armour, but granted onelevel of rN?
18:37:30 <due> dpeg: It would basically be equivalent to a randart dragon arour with rN+.
18:38:07 <monky> and rF-- and rC+?
18:38:15 <dpeg> other way around
18:38:29 <monky> I mean to counter out dragon armour's resists
18:38:30 <dpeg> due: I'd like it better with two positive resistances
18:38:36 <due> monky: no negative resistances
18:38:47 <due> dpeg: Okay, so rN++ and nothing else, as opposed rN+ and nothing else?
18:38:47 <monky> I think I wasn't clear
18:39:04 <due> I probably wasn't clear.
18:39:14 <due> It would only have rN+; no rF+, no rC-, etc.
18:39:26 <monky> right
18:39:31 <dpeg> ah, ok
18:39:38 <due> The GDR and base AC would be the same as plain dragon armour.
18:39:42 <dpeg> due: that's okay, but a little weak among the dragon armours, I think
18:39:51 <due> ??storm dragon armour
18:39:52 <Henzell> storm dragon armour[1/1]: A magical armour made from the scales of a lightning-breathing dragon. It is heavier than most dragon scale armours, but gives its wearer great resistance to electrical discharges. (heavy armour; AC 10, EV -5, insulation, 60.0 aum.)
18:40:05 <due> Well, in that instance, we could base it off SDA instead; heavier AC?
18:40:08 <monky> is there any reason for ice dragon armour having 1 more ac than normal dragon armour?
18:40:22 <dpeg> due: it could have better AC with rather low EVP, for example.
18:40:28 <dpeg> Would that befit "pearl"?
18:40:33 <due> Hm, I think so.
18:40:37 <due> ??dragon armour cmoparison
18:40:38 <Henzell> I don't have a page labeled dragon_armour_cmoparison in my learndb.
18:40:39 <due> Damn.
18:40:43 <due> ??dragon armour comparison
18:40:44 <Henzell> dragon armour comparison[1/2]: l = light, h = heavy, from lightest, with resistances: Steam dragon: (l) AC4 EV0 Steam immunity 12aum | Mottled dragon: (l) AC5 EV-1 Sticky flame immunity 15aum | Swamp dragon: (h) AC7 EV-2 rPois 20aum
18:40:45 <due> ??dragon armour comparison[22]
18:40:46 <Henzell> I don't have a page labeled dragon_armour_comparison[22] in my learndb.
18:40:49 <due> ??dragon armour comparison[2]
18:40:49 <Henzell> dragon armour comparison[2/2]: Dragon: (h) AC8 EV-3 rF++ rC- 35aum | Ice dragon: (h) AC9 EV-3 rC++ rF- 35aum | Storm dragon: (h) AC10 EV-5 rElec 60aum | Gold dragon: (h) AC13 EV-9 rF+ rC+ rPois 110aum
18:41:01 <due> How about AC10 and EV-3 with rN+?
18:41:24 <due> also, I don't think that entry is up to date.
18:42:50 <TGWi> there were ideas for quicksilver and shadow dragon armours too
18:42:52 <dpeg> due: AC10 and EV-3 sounds really good
18:42:59 <due> !learn edit dragon_armour_comparison[1] s/AC13/AC11/
18:42:59 <Henzell> No change because the regex failed to match.
18:43:05 <due> !learn edit dragon_armour_comparison[2] s/AC13/AC11/
18:43:06 <Henzell> dragon armour comparison[2/2]: Dragon: (h) AC8 EV-3 rF++ rC- 35aum | Ice dragon: (h) AC9 EV-3 rC++ rF- 35aum | Storm dragon: (h) AC10 EV-5 rElec 60aum | Gold dragon: (h) AC11 EV-9 rF+ rC+ rPois 110aum
18:43:10 <due> dpeg: rN+ or rN++?
18:43:17 <dpeg> rN+
18:43:20 <due> TGWi: Shadow dragons are incorporeal and quicksilver are made of quicksilver.
18:43:32 <due> Well, kinda incorporeal, in my mind.
18:43:41 <TGWi> there's a flag for incorporeal
18:43:45 <due> Yes, I know.
18:43:47 <TGWi> I don't think shadow dragons have it
18:43:55 <due> Yes, I know. That's why I corrected myself
18:44:03 <TGWi> also, bone dragon armour
18:44:14 <due> Well, dragon bone armour would be more interesting.
18:44:14 <TGWi> (from bone dragon hide)
18:44:22 <TGWi> maybe bone dragon... bones
18:44:28 <due> But only as an unrand.
18:44:29 <monky> if quicksilver dragons were made of quicksilver, wouldn't they be nonliving and not leave corpses?
18:44:37 <due> monky: "in my mind".
18:44:40 <monky> oh
18:44:46 <due> monky: This is the rationale in my mind for not having these give dragon armour.
18:45:00 <due> bugger
18:45:02 <TGWi> anyway, there's a slot for a -2 dragon armour
18:45:06 <TGWi> EVP
18:45:24 <monky> swamp?
18:45:33 <dpeg> are the learndb numbers post nerf?
18:45:37 <TGWi> just kidding
18:45:43 <CIA-113> 03due * r96eeefb472bc 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-spll.h: Fix compilation.
18:45:46 <due> dpeg: Dragon armour comparison now is; GDA got nerfed to AC11.
18:45:47 <monky> there's a slot for -4ev right?
18:45:54 <TGWi> 0 steam -1 mottled -2 swamp -3 dragon -5 storm
18:45:54 <dpeg> yes
18:46:03 <TGWi> -9 gold
18:46:11 <TGWi> and the rest is empty I guess
18:46:24 <due> dpeg: AC10 EV-2 for pearl, perhaps, then? that just gives +3 extra AC than swamp dragon armour.
18:46:24 <dpeg> huh? plain, ice
18:46:24 <TGWi> bone could be somewhere between GDA and storm with high AC
18:46:37 <dpeg> due: but allows much, much better casting!
18:46:38 <due> TGWi: Bone will be an unrand if I get my way :)
18:46:44 <due> dpeg: Yes, of course.
18:46:55 <dpeg> might be too good, but we can start with it
18:46:57 <due> "Someone has strung together a suit of armour from dragon bones. How horrifying!"
18:47:06 <dpeg> need to be careful that someone in Bangalore is fast asleep
18:47:23 <TGWi> 10, -2 seems way too good but we'll see
18:47:26 <dpeg> got complaints about making too many new features too strong
18:47:31 <TGWi> I'd start with 9, -2 and that's still good
18:47:33 <TGWi> very good
18:47:36 <dpeg> yes
18:47:39 <due> TGWi: Or 10 -3.
18:47:41 <TGWi> just plain dragon armour is very good
18:47:54 <TGWi> pearl could be -4
18:47:59 <TGWi> and bone could be -7 or -8
18:48:11 <due> Peaarl is ... made of pearls. They're very light.
18:48:23 <TGWi> iron dragon needs armour too
18:48:25 <due> Now, how do we deal with "evil"?
18:48:27 <TGWi> or, could have armour
18:48:36 <dpeg> evil?
18:48:36 <due> Do we let vampires wear pearl dragon armour?
18:48:55 <due> I think we do, because they already get a revenge hit for killing the dragon.
18:49:00 <dpeg> yes
18:49:15 <due> Perhaps unholy races putting on PDA would get a one-off curse from the gods (ie, they curse your armour).
18:49:21 <due> Interesting flavour or pointless?
18:49:28 <dpeg> due: if you don't evil species to wear the thing, you really have to call the dragon Blessed or Holy.
18:49:39 <due> Yes, I know.
18:49:46 <dpeg> I don't thikn the god should interfere.
18:49:49 <due> Okay.
18:49:53 <due> "pointless + tacky" :)
18:50:07 <sorear> Zin probably thinks that wearing the skins of angels is ICKY
18:50:27 <TGWi> the good gods randomly jumping in to smite you is weird
18:50:27 <dpeg> it could be auto-curse for everyone, although that's a flavour only few people will get and support, if I look back at the Ash discussions
18:50:45 <TGWi> afaik flavour is that gods aren't allowed to screw with mortals directly
18:50:46 <due> TGWi: Yes, I agree
18:50:52 <TGWi> except their followers
18:50:57 <dpeg> TGWi: I agree
18:50:59 <due> TGWi: If they randomly jump in to smite you, why don't they randomly jump in to smite whatever evil you're fighting?
18:51:07 <due> or in cases of revenge
18:51:12 <TGWi> right
18:51:18 <dpeg> or, the other way around: gods need followers as agents
18:51:21 <due> ie when you kill an angel.
18:51:22 <TGWi> beogh is cutting it pretty close with smiting
18:51:27 <TGWi> which is why he's evil I guess
18:51:32 <dpeg> which fits nicely with my Lugonu plan
18:51:40 <dpeg> heck, I could make that an implementable
18:51:46 <TGWi> which plan?
18:51:46 <due> dpeg: Make it an implementable then.
18:52:02 <dpeg> TGWi: Lugonu against the divine establishment
18:52:09 <dpeg> desecrating altars and stuff
18:52:14 <TGWi> ah
18:52:29 <dpeg> TGWi: you mean when Beogh is smiting you for destroying orcish idolsß
18:52:34 <monky> wasn't that on hold for wrath overhaul?
18:52:39 <dpeg> monky: right
18:52:50 <dpeg> wasn't there someone doing wrath overhaul? :)
18:53:29 <monky> all I can recall about wrath overhaul is someone (bmh?) did chei
18:53:54 <dpeg> not sure if I can hand out wrath as implentable
18:53:55 <due> wrath needs total overhaul
18:53:57 <due> "meh"
18:53:57 <dpeg> +em
18:54:05 <dpeg> due: I know, I made a plan
18:54:52 <dpeg> it is quite simple actually: wrath goes down for certain actions (like killing some god's minion), although there may be other wrath effects as well
18:56:08 <TGWi> dpeg: well, smiting in general is beogh directly reaching out and attacking some mortal
18:56:14 <dpeg> the severity of wrath depends on duration of worship, total piety (so noticeably harsh if you abandon early) and mode of abandonment (increase severity if you take on antagonistic god during wrath duration)
18:56:30 <TGWi> I guess TSO does the same thing with angels, but what's a good god without a little hypocrisy?
18:56:44 <dpeg> TGWi: yes, but he is only doing that on his own (with player or monster orc priest) when orc idols are destroyed, which makes a lot of sense
18:57:20 <dpeg> TGWi: the gods can do things, they just shouldn't to (too many) things without a follower involved
18:58:08 <dpeg> e.g. TSO killing a bunch of guys on behalf of a follower == good; TSO punishing an undead player just so == bad
18:59:19 -!- coolio_mc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
18:59:22 <dpeg> the crucial point wrt wrath is to find effects which are scum-proof (those can then be used as yardsticks, i.e. to reduce the wrath counter)
19:03:33 <dpeg> 2 am ==> sleep
19:03:35 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: zzz]
19:04:33 <due> bye :)
19:14:28 <CIA-113> 03kilobyte * r9ae74c385bde 10/crawl-ref/source/package.cc: Change the max name length of save file chunks from 4 to 255.
19:14:29 <CIA-113> 03kilobyte * r7c815151b0b6 10/crawl-ref/source/ (initfile.cc package.cc package.h): Adjust the max chunk name in --edit-save as well.
19:14:32 <CIA-113> 03kilobyte * re42825abd44b 10/crawl-ref/source/tag-version.h: Bump the minor version so there's no confusion about lack of forward compat.
19:14:50 <kilobyte> hrm, for several hours already I'm not able to push or pull from SF from either home or my dev server... but another place seems to work
19:15:00 <kilobyte> pings do work
19:30:21 <due> Sf sucks.
19:31:44 <due> @??gobblin
19:31:44 <Gretell> unknown monster: "gobblin"
19:31:46 <due> @??goblin
19:31:47 <Gretell> goblin (15g) | Speed: 10 | HD: 1 | Health: 2-6 | AC/EV: 0/12 | Damage: 4 | Res: 06magic(1) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 1.
19:32:42 <due> blue, lightred, lightgrey, brown, yellow, magenta.
19:32:48 -!- Mu_ has quit [Quit: Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place.]
19:33:03 <due> @??goblin col:lightcyan
19:33:04 <Gretell> goblin (11g) | Speed: 10 | HD: 1 | Health: 2-6 | AC/EV: 0/12 | Damage: 4 | Res: 06magic(1) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 1.
19:33:07 <Adeon> sf is short for suomi finland and we don't suck
19:33:13 <due> I think cyan and lightcyan.
19:33:19 <due> Adeon: Sourceforge does, though.
19:33:24 <due> @??goblin col:lightblue
19:33:24 <Gretell> goblin (12g) | Speed: 10 | HD: 1 | Health: 2-6 | AC/EV: 0/12 | Damage: 4 | Res: 06magic(1) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 1.
19:33:50 <TGWi> why still use sourceforge, then?
19:34:09 <due> TGWi: Simply because we haven't found a suitable alternative that does git and mailing lists in a nice way? or, laziness? I'm unsure myself.
19:34:51 <TGWi> but sourceforge does git and mailing lists in a bad way :(
19:35:13 <TGWi> I could buy laziness
19:38:40 <due> we haven't found anyone who dies it better
19:38:53 <kilobyte> doing git is pretty trivial (like that fancy package Nap King installed), not sure about mailing lists
19:39:10 <due> Gittosis?
19:39:11 <TGWi> there's probably a nice way to do mailing lists separately
19:39:13 <kilobyte> I don't know much about github too, it might be faster than cdo
19:39:25 <kilobyte> due: I think it was that, yeah
19:39:32 <TGWi> although I don't know anything about git
19:39:50 <Napkin> gitolite (perl) instead of gitosis (python)
19:40:06 <due> Napkin: ah, that
19:40:16 <due> well, we could move the git hosting elsewhere and keep the mailing lists on sourceforge
19:40:46 <CIA-113> 03due * r0ece95b4b3bc 10/crawl-ref/source/ (enum.h it_use2.cc rltiles/dc-item.txt): Add the necessary enums, etc, for Homunculus spell.
19:41:21 <Napkin> stone soup is a huge project
19:41:41 <Napkin> at least code/revision/commit wise
19:41:55 <due> Napkin: Size-wise for how large the git repositotry would be, or just in general?
19:42:06 <Napkin> size
19:42:19 <due> Yeah.
19:42:35 <due> All the remotebranches, etc.
19:42:38 <Napkin> i've run into many corruptions because of too many pack files already
19:42:57 <due> Oh, that's right, you have a mirror. I forgot!
19:43:08 <due> My ~/crawl-ref folder is about 400mb.
19:43:32 <Napkin> but since i'm doing a full repack every month it's ok
19:44:30 <due> So what's the difference between your mirror and the sourceforge original?
19:44:51 <Napkin> nothing, apart probably from hooks?
19:45:06 <Napkin> i created the mirror in git when svn was still used
19:45:18 <Napkin> and greensnark pushed that mirror to sf's git
19:45:19 <due> Hm.
19:45:26 <due> Oh, nice!
19:45:28 <due> I didn't kow that :)
19:45:45 <Napkin> git was soooooo much nicer for doing automated installs :)
19:45:53 <due> I can imagine :)
19:45:59 <kilobyte> due: git repack; if it's really dirty git repack --aggressive will be better but on your hardware it can take ages
19:46:23 <due> kilobyte: If I feel like it, I'll start it before I go out this afternoon, but I'm not low on space or anything.
19:46:33 <Napkin> i need to do repack -a -d every month
19:46:53 <kilobyte> it does give significant speedup to 'git log', 'git blame' and such
19:47:21 <kilobyte> but I guess the difference between --aggressive and normal is not big
19:47:40 <due> Napkin: Okay, so apart from sourceforge's access control mechanism and that we don't push to develz, there's not much difference?
19:47:50 <Napkin> --aggressive isn't even in the man-page, kilobyte :-O
19:47:50 <due> I suppose that gives more promise for being able to move away from sourceforge at some point in time.
19:48:14 <sorear> actually, napkin recently set up access control
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19:48:16 <kilobyte> Napkin: uhm, the very first option listed?
19:48:41 <Napkin> kilobyte: is "-a" here: Instead of incrementally packing the unpacked objects, pack everything referenced into a single pack.
19:49:15 <Napkin> well, sf provides a webinterface to add keys, remove keys, etc
19:49:36 <Napkin> i need to do that manually via gitolite's config repository
19:49:48 <Napkin> but it's not much work
19:49:49 <due> ahh
19:50:14 <kilobyte> uhm, what version of git do you have?  The oldest I can access has --aggressive listed first too.
19:50:29 <Napkin> and since it's a repository itself, I could give out permissions to update it to others
19:50:41 <Napkin> kilobyte: 1.7.1
19:50:54 <due> Napkin: Would that be permission to all your repositories or just a DCSS one?
19:50:56 <Napkin> from August last year
19:51:04 <kilobyte> the old one I looked at is 1.5.6.5
19:51:18 <Napkin> i don't get it either, kilobyte
19:51:45 <Napkin> maybe backports man-page was just not updated?
19:51:47 <kilobyte> ah, you mean "git repack", not "git gc".  "git gc" does a good deal more.
19:51:48 <due> Napkin: Is it self-compiled, ie, are theman pages old?
19:51:57 <due> Ah.
19:52:18 <Napkin> Ah, too :)
19:52:36 <Napkin> it would be permission to all repositories
19:52:57 <Napkin> but I bet I could add some sub-config
19:53:00 <Napkin> not sure though
19:54:00 <due> sounds good :)
19:54:06 <Napkin> anyways, the only repositories not shared public are the personal ones, which are configured differently
19:54:57 <Napkin> but I think people would be happier with github, no?
19:55:21 <Napkin> probably a lot more gimmicks than I currently have to offer with gitolite
19:55:26 <due> I don't think you can set up github to handle how we do git, no?
19:56:03 <Napkin> not sure, never used github much, apart from cloning something once in a while
19:56:11 <Napkin> how's speed there?
19:56:27 <due> It would end up with a lot of push/pull requests etc.
19:56:35 <CIA-113> 03kilobyte * rea0711175419 10/crawl-ref/source/ (actor.h makeitem.h): Fix an extremely spammy clang warning.
19:56:57 <due> kilobyte: is that re fizzing potions? I'm just fixing up the last of the stuff I missed.
19:57:02 <due> (making sure they don't generate randomly, etc)
19:58:11 <due> Oh, nm.
20:00:10 <Napkin> also, wouldn't spreading up things a bit be safer?
20:01:45 <Napkin> I already worry that running wordpress, dokuwiki, mantis, gretell, forum, windows builds, cdo on a single server... well, i hope there is no downtime - i'll probably never see the light again ;)
20:01:51 * due laughs.
20:01:59 <due> Napkin: yes, I don't think we should have git on CDO :)
20:02:07 <due> Napkin: motsly because I don't want to pile more pressuer on you
20:02:08 <Napkin> *phew*
20:02:12 <Napkin> ;)
20:02:47 <sorear> due: I don't recommend the use of pull requests for us
20:03:19 <sorear> due: we can use github exactly the same way we're currently using sourceforge - a single shared repository that everyone can access
20:05:47 <kilobyte> can it do commit notifications as well?
20:06:24 <Napkin> due: i don't feel pressured - i love doing all this stuff and helping you guys and the game
20:06:55 <kilobyte> on SF I use a subscription to c-r-commits to a token account which has nothing but a procmail script triggered by SF
20:06:55 <Napkin> due: it's just that _if_ really something happens one day, it'll be a shame to lose all that
20:07:23 <sorear> kilobyte: github can do better.
20:07:34 <sorear> slightly.
20:08:00 <sorear> host a cgi script somewhere, github will hit it with a POST on commits
20:08:11 <sorear> no mail gateways invlved
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20:09:03 <Napkin> how does that work - in general
20:09:12 <CIA-113> 03kilobyte * r679a4604928c 10/crawl-ref/source/ (7 files): Fix the struct/class clang warnings for tiles, too.
20:09:26 <Napkin> everything done via hooks? and do sf & github allow to change them to whatever you want?
20:11:09 <sorear> Napkin: SF allows you to write hooks as shell scripts
20:11:45 <sorear> github only allows you to use specific proscribed notification systems
20:11:56 <sorear> but you can hit a relay, so it doesn't hurt *too* much
20:12:02 <Napkin> oh
20:12:59 <Napkin> kinda pity
20:13:20 <Napkin> but if the system has everything you need..
20:16:00 <Zannick> cia can do github as well
20:17:06 <Napkin> setting up a proper mailinglist should not be a problem either
20:27:42 <due> Napkin: It amuses me that a mailing list my sister helps run used to be hosted via listserv somewhere... they decided to "Switch to yahoo groups because it was better and cheaper".
20:27:52 <due> Napkin: They have had *no* *end* of trouble with it, obviously.
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20:39:56 <CIA-113> 03due * r315efd1a6698 10/crawl-ref/source/ (itemname.cc itemprop.cc itemprop.h makeitem.cc mon-stuff.cc): Don't randomly generate fizzing potions, nor mimic them.
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20:46:32 <due> argh, I shouldn't read the wiki
20:49:02 <TGWi> there's a monster that is cancer?
20:49:05 <TGWi> this is so cool
20:49:42 <due> yes
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20:49:47 <due> well, an ancient cancer
20:49:52 <TGWi> oh ok
20:50:01 <due> zymes are cancers and pestilence and shit gone sentient
20:50:10 <due> I think sentient cancer is horrifying myself :D
20:51:09 <TGWi> FR: henrietta lacks unique
20:52:58 <due> entrietta?
20:52:58 <TGWi> do you have the tile for ancient zyme, then?
20:53:03 <due> yes
20:53:10 <TGWi> please share
20:53:11 <due> I will link, one moment
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20:53:14 <TGWi> it sounds appealing
20:53:20 <due> it's a floating green tumour :D
20:53:23 <TGWi> :D
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20:53:25 <due> https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3096
20:53:48 <TGWi> oh god
20:53:49 <TGWi> barf
20:54:09 <TGWi> what does it do mechanically?
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21:08:33 <due> TGWi: No idea yet. Still thinking about it.
21:08:47 <TGWi> new encancered status effect
21:08:48 <due> TGWi: It'll have a "tendril slap" attack at least, and possibly poison/sicken/drain stats.
21:09:35 <monky> are there any monsters that latch onto the player?
21:09:42 <TGWi> that would be interesting, due
21:09:54 <TGWi> monky: leeches should
21:10:03 <TGWi> (because They Are Leeches)
21:14:13 <Ashenzari> Crash on start (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3170) by vonbrand
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21:25:37 <due> but it'll have other stuff to make it interesting too
21:25:46 <due> monky: leeches are supposed to but i ran into implementation issues and gave up
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21:30:25 <due> https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:magic:transmutation:homunculus
21:30:38 <due> If you're going to make suggestions or changes please do so in the comments
21:30:43 <due> actually I will write that somewhere
21:30:58 <due> :o!
21:31:04 <due> why is dpeg still browsing the wiki? :)
21:31:51 <TGWi> due: you named like five different attack types; that's fairly interesting
21:32:00 <TGWi> especially if you balance it for midgame or lategame
21:32:11 <due> TGWi: For Homunculus?
21:32:28 <TGWi> no, for cancer
21:32:30 <due> Oh.
21:32:44 <due> Abyssal horror/SHT result
21:32:50 <due> so yes
21:32:51 <TGWi> there's nothing that gives a significant amount of stat drain
21:32:54 <due> it will definitely be balanced for lat game
21:33:16 <TGWi> except like OCS I guess
21:33:27 <TGWi> so it'll be pretty revolutionary wherever
21:34:28 <due> oh good hm
21:34:47 <TGWi> what does "'soupling'" mean?
21:35:05 <due> "soupling" is another spelling of "souplike" which is a variant of "souple" which is a variant of "supple".
21:35:21 <TGWi> oh okay
21:35:25 <due> The whole spell comes from someone playing "soupling" at Scrabble the other day and my going, "Hey cool! It's like a DCSS homunculus. OOOH HOMUNCULUS."
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22:10:51 <TGWi> throwing a potion should yield "you awkwardly throw the thick metal flask of poison"
22:11:02 <TGWi> so people don't get any ideas
22:11:27 <ZChris13> But then why does it shatter
22:11:32 <ZChris13> under cold
22:12:08 <sorear> ZChris13: it's MAGICAL code
22:12:10 <Zannick> see also the nethack wiki page about potions
22:12:12 <sorear> cold
22:12:26 <ZChris13> No, the code is magical
22:12:41 <TGWi> "you awkwardly throw the ziploc bag of poison"
22:12:48 <sorear> ZChris13: also, have you ever lived in an area where it goes below freezing?  Quarter-inch steel pipes *do* burst.
22:12:53 <Zannick> "Perhaps it is the bottle that is magical, as much as or more than the colored liquid within."
22:13:20 <ZChris13> No, but I've heard of trees exploding.
22:13:53 <ZChris13> Why can't freezing clouds make trees explode like LRD?
22:14:06 <TGWi> maybe just "metal flask"
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23:36:24 <Blackflare> cool, new build
23:37:32 <Gretell> Windows development builds on CDO updated to: 0.8.0-a0-4388-g315efd1
23:54:13 <Gretell> Unstable branch on CDO updated to: 0.8.0-a0-4388-g315efd1 (31.31)