00:03:08 -!- paxed has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:03:32 -!- upsy has joined ##crawl-dev 00:06:57 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 00:29:47 -!- paxed has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:31:33 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 00:37:54 -!- eith_ has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:50:51 -!- paxed has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:55:08 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 01:14:45 -!- paxed has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:18:43 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 01:19:31 Missing overflow altar (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3021) by ledtim 01:29:30 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:35:16 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 01:39:29 -!- paxed has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:41:23 -!- Lollipop has joined ##crawl-dev 01:43:07 -!- Pialein has joined ##crawl-dev 01:43:18 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 02:04:01 -!- paxed has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:07:54 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 02:25:50 -!- monky has joined ##crawl-dev 02:26:43 moin 02:40:28 bah, I hate _builder_basic so much. 02:40:58 the levels it builds are so often aesthetically unpleasant, and it builds roughly 90% of them 02:41:07 Zaba: Replace it! 02:41:16 they just look messy. 02:41:29 remember, sometimes more than one builder is used 02:41:37 sorear, not anymore, no 02:41:49 oh, we got rid of the "overwritten" level plan? 02:42:04 I considered _roguey_level + _builder_basic an ancient bug and removed it 02:42:59 both _roguey_level and _builder_basic look better when they're separate 02:44:09 and it makes the code path much cleaner, too. 02:54:11 -!- paxed has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:54:25 greensnark, I wonder whether _make_trail's behaviour can somehow be recreated without _make_trail's insanity 02:55:31 Zaba: You know a lot more about the level builder than anyone else now, you should consult yourself :P 02:56:21 well, it's just an algorithm for drawing random corridors that loosely connect... something 02:57:55 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 03:18:07 -!- paxed has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:22:31 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 03:47:53 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 04:06:18 -!- paxed has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:10:31 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 04:21:25 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 04:23:28 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 04:30:05 -!- paxed has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:34:06 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 04:34:13 guys? is the manual in reST format in git? 04:35:07 yes 04:35:13 ah, no 04:35:20 only on the wiki 04:35:39 changes to the manual should be made on the wiki page 04:35:59 why that? 04:36:56 makes it easier for people to correct stuff 04:37:30 !seen Keskitalo 04:37:31 I last saw Keskitalo at Tue Dec 21 21:29:31 2010 UTC (1d 13h 8m ago) saying sounds good, soungds good on ##crawl-dev. 04:37:32 and who is responsible to put the changes back to git, so it can be included in the packages? 04:37:40 this is a good question 04:37:56 I think I am responsible, and I think I flaked for the last release. 04:38:05 crawl_manual.txt was last changes on Nov 4th 04:38:23 while the manual.html linked to from the wiki is July 7th 04:39:23 galehar linked the manual.html from the wordpress -> the game -> documentation 04:39:37 now i'm trying to have it re-created automatically 04:40:18 i could of course give the crawl user access to that source file in the wiki.. but that's not a nice strategy 04:40:50 I am confused. 04:41:09 https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:manual:start 04:41:21 links to the reST document: https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:manual:rest 04:41:30 The idea was to have on master manual in ReST on the development wiki, and then to make txt, html, latex (pdf) versions out of that for releases. That's okay? 04:41:37 also links to the parsed manual.html created by it: http://crawl.develz.org/other/manual.html 04:41:56 well, ok, sure 04:42:19 just remind me to update the manual.html linked to from the wordpress 04:42:21 Just the other day we found that someone edited manual.txt manually and someone edited that into the wiki. 04:42:41 !tell Napkin Please update manual.html linked to from the wordpress. 04:42:41 dpeg: OK, I'll let Napkin know. 04:42:42 :) 04:43:11 I need to update the manual before release, a number of things have changed. 04:43:32 crawl_manual.txt in the git source should then link to the reST document on the wiki, instead of containing content 04:43:32 Napkin: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them. 04:43:56 Napkin: yes, that would be much better. 04:44:08 Do we need to summon neunon for thisß 04:44:19 having it in the git would have been safer and more pratical for usage purposes 04:44:33 not sure about more practical 04:45:02 borsuk did all the work with ReST, and he was for a public version (which has advantages -- some folks have corrected typos) 04:45:58 well, not going to argue - just saying i can't automatically recreate the manual.html this way.. neither can you for releases 04:46:14 all back to manual work 04:46:54 but ok.. the name is "DOKUwiki" after all ;) 04:47:49 I guess we should have discussed more before the change. 04:47:56 Bbbbut: it was discussed on the mailing list :) 04:48:28 i'm not a dev ;-P 04:50:45 the first rule here is, don't version control generated stuff, if there is not a reason for version controlling it :) 04:52:13 The first rule always is to stay calm. 04:52:24 RUHE BEWAREN, MEINE HERREN. 04:52:26 neither the html nor the pdf is version-controlled, bhaak ;) 04:52:30 ALARM! 04:54:04 how are quickstart.pdf and key_changes.pdf generated? 04:54:44 stupid me, could have looked first with pdfinfo 04:54:49 talking about the manual, not the other stuff that hasn't been ported yet 04:58:46 bhaak: I do those by hand. Although the tex files have some explanation at the top, I think. 04:58:48 oh, you want to put ALL documentation on the wiki? 04:58:55 bhaak: not sure that's worth it 04:59:16 ah, now I see where jpeg got her bad tex habits from :) 04:59:24 But using rest for the manual is a good idea. Paul Dubois once suggested it; I tried and failed, and then borsuk pulled through. 04:59:34 bad tex habits? 04:59:49 -!- elliptic has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 05:00:57 \newcommand{\para}{\vspace{1.5ex}} 05:01:17 \setlength{\parindent}{0em} 05:02:17 or using {\LARGE ...} or {\it ...} 05:02:30 I can do better but both documents need a lot of manual stuff anyway. 05:02:46 I have never used {\it} though. 05:03:15 no, she did, strangely, even though sometimes she used also \textit{} 05:03:50 I'll sent her a link to l2tabu after finishing reviewing her quickstart guide for nethack-de :) 05:04:20 I learned a lot from something called "Deadly sins with Latex". 05:04:56 hey, now that is nifty and cruel: \key{http:\slsl crawl.akrasiac.org} 05:05:47 I noticed, you always seem to do things you are told not to. Maybe that's a hint for the fellow developer to get stuff into crawl :) 05:06:49 I also don't know what to say about a macro called \sex. 05:07:42 There was a good reason to called it like this. 05:09:58 not really :-D the usual workaround be to use \sec2 or \sed 05:10:11 now I wonder if there are any hits for "sex" and "dcss" 05:11:13 there are for "sex" and "dungeon crawl stone soup" but no because of the tex file :-D 05:13:46 I am not familiar with either \sec2 or \sed. 05:15:07 i meant, calling the macro sec2 or sed, because sec is already defined. 05:15:28 otoh, this being tex, overwriting sec would have been possible, too 05:15:41 ah, I see 05:15:54 I don't care so much about the standard. 05:16:47 -!- paxed has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 05:21:04 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 05:35:02 03Keskitalo * rcf2de67efeb5 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/guide.txt: List the zotdef folder. 05:35:04 03Keskitalo * r062e97cc45ac 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/variable/mini_monsters.des: Remove another poor minivault of mine. 05:35:10 03Keskitalo * r6ef2568eb10a 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-data.h: Revert "Trampling for yaks and death yaks." 05:37:21 ok, i'll add a cronjob for rst2html /var/www/crawl.develz.org/htdocs/wiki/data/pages/dcss/manual/rest.txt /var/www/crawl.develz.org/htdocs/other/manual.html 05:37:45 yay 05:40:10 are we supposed to use the rest version for the manual shipped with Crawl already? 05:40:54 -!- paxed has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 05:41:34 the source tree doesn't have the rest one, and there are manual edits to the text version which don't seem to be sourced from rest 05:42:16 kilobyte: it is intentional that the rest manual sits in the wiki. 05:42:47 Changes to the manual should go there, and the various versions of the manual (txt, html etc.) should be made from the rest before releases. 05:43:01 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 05:43:02 I guess that's nowhere stated in the guidelines :( 05:43:05 galehar: hi! 05:43:22 hi 05:43:47 Good afternoon! The baby came this night, and all went well. :) 05:43:47 Keskitalo: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 05:43:51 !messages 05:43:51 (1/1) greensnark said (1d 7h 17m 28s ago): Time to nerf GDR again yet? :) 05:43:55 I made a post on wordpress, but I must have fucked up something, because when you follow the link it gives a 404 05:43:57 at least I don't see it ever having been synced with the rest version 05:44:15 Keskitalo: congrats! 05:44:20 galehar: Thank you! 05:44:25 Keskitalo: Congrats! When's the party? 05:44:39 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 05:44:44 congratulations, Eino! \o/ 05:44:48 I hear you're having very good weather in Finland, no better time for a party 05:44:57 When one can bear to think about it :P 05:45:11 Probably polar bear to think about it, considering the weather! 05:45:22 thank you thank you! ^__^ 05:45:41 wow, how did you do that, galehar? :-O 05:45:44 Keskitalo, greensnark: when I dared to say my recent ghoul was totally invulnerable in just a +2 randart plate, elliptic bashed me saying that having +13 AC from rings makes this data point worthless 05:46:09 Keskitalo: congratulations! We need the name :) 05:46:13 I thought rings no longer gave AC? 05:46:17 hi 05:46:24 however, now I realized that if it were a regular plate, I'd be able to enchant it to +10 making up for most of the difference in rings 05:46:30 They didn't have family rooms available, so I have to be at home between visiting hours, which is terrible. But hey, time for Crawl then :P 05:46:35 Napkin: I forgot to put a title. But I've fixed that. 05:46:37 kilobyte: Good data, thanks 05:46:38 galehar: please put it to the Play-Testing category 05:46:44 ok 05:46:51 greensnark: they can still have a base type "ring of protection" 05:47:02 Keskitalo: Protip: don't allow dpeg to name the baby unless you want a name like Heizölrückstoßabdämpfung 05:47:28 kilobyte: Ah, so only randarts lose AC 05:47:31 dpeg: We'll keep the name sssseecrettt until the naming party (whatever that could be in English) aye 05:47:40 I had: randart {rF++ rN+ AC+5}, Robustness {AC+8} and brooch of shielding {rN+ AC+4 EV+4} 05:47:43 but if greensnark thought my name was cool, he'll love hers 05:48:05 in tough places I switched Robustness for a ring of regen, though 05:48:11 AC+5 on a randart.. I thought those were gone! 05:48:16 it gave far more of an edge 05:48:31 galehar: thank you and good job @ post :) 05:48:33 kilobyte: so we think that AC is overpowered now and again? 05:48:34 kilobyte: That was with old GDR, right? 05:48:51 dpeg: SA thinks so :) 05:48:53 kilobyte: Congratulations! 05:49:03 greensnark: hey, there is also Pafnuti, Kali and Zacharias! 05:49:12 Cyberdmg on had a very nice post, how early-midgame in heavy armour was good (meaning viable), but towards the endgame and post-endgame it was overpowered and s/he was just leaning on keys. 05:49:17 Keskitalo: rings and amulets are still allowed a base type -- you can't have stasis, protection, gourmand, etc as randart props but they can be a base one 05:49:26 greensnark: I won't trust them. 05:49:33 kilobyte: Ahhh, of course. I misunderstood. 05:49:33 Keskitalo: can you link? 05:49:38 dpeg: Who chose the names Johann and Theresa? :) 05:49:39 Yes, I think I have it 05:49:53 greensnark: my wife is slightly more conservative than I am :) 05:49:54 dpeg: it was just a single game where I _felt_ the character to be badly overpowered 05:49:59 kilobyte: ok 05:50:01 dpeg: Aha, I knew it wasn't you :P 05:50:22 Pafnuti sounds like some kind of weird vegan dish 05:50:32 a non-artefact great sword of speed is another piece you don't get every day, though 05:50:38 http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3332877&pagenumber=140#post385896977 05:50:49 greensnark: but we agreed on non-fancy names beforehand (so no Elenia-Sandrine, Joel-Hannibal and what not) 05:50:51 Oh, Pafnuti Chebyshev 05:50:58 greensnark: <3 05:51:39 Do you think we have to cut back on heavy AC right now, or can we allow playing a bit with it? 05:51:44 still nothing compared to the All-ruling Goat we have among us 05:52:02 yes, that is awesome 05:52:08 We could have heavier and heavier armours give GDR "diminishing returns" -- the early heavy armour sounds very good now 05:52:16 * dpeg procrastinates to the goat frog. 05:52:21 Keskitalo: thanks 05:52:36 I'd say: let's give it more testing 05:52:37 Early heavy armour is pretty nice now 05:52:43 ok 05:52:53 elliptic might be right about my game being an outlier with insane finds 05:53:00 Keskitalo: boy or girl? 05:53:01 kilobyte: Don't think so :P 05:53:04 dpeg: girl! 05:53:10 Keskitalo: shame, no Linley then. 05:53:23 :D 05:53:42 Trog's a possiblity 05:53:50 Come to think of it, Linley's an unusual first name 05:53:58 Nothing says it's gendered 05:54:02 Oh, to name the kids after gods... 05:54:25 Hindus do that all the time and it gets quite tedious 05:54:40 greensnark: they call their offspring Trog? More power to them! 05:54:56 "Linli" would be the Finnish translitteration and that sounds more like a girl name to me 05:54:58 dpeg: Worse, they use gods they pretend are actually real :( 05:55:34 I kinda dodged a bullet with my name not being a sixteen syllable nickname for Krishna, which is what the unlucky types get 05:55:42 btw, Trog is a German word, it means hod/feeder :) 05:55:52 greensnark: haha 05:56:03 I had a colleague named Balasubramaniyan Krithivasan in my first job; it used to be very funny when he had to dictate his name to somebody 05:56:14 wait, wait, wait... I skimmed through the scrollback and failed to notice Keskitalo's news 05:56:26 greensnark: and 90% of the vowels are a, I guess? 05:56:46 𝖌𝖗𝖆𝖙𝖘! 05:56:50 No, the other vowels are also well represented 05:56:54 kilobyte: Thank you! 05:57:52 I need to get me a serious book on Indian mythology one of these days. 05:58:05 Lord of Light is better :P 05:58:13 At least it doesn't pretend to be true :P 05:58:18 Are you getting a part of the royalties? 05:58:24 I wish! 05:58:30 Have you finished reading it yet? :P 05:58:32 yes 05:58:44 In a single night session. 05:58:49 Wow, we made dpeg read Zelazny 05:59:15 There is one paragraph that appears twice in a row. I guess that was intended? 05:59:25 Which one is that 05:59:36 Will !tell you when I find it. 05:59:39 galehar: Good post on the skill menu, thanks for doing it! One thing: Denzi not Danei I bet! 06:00:12 (who did the skill tiles) 06:00:26 SA really likes the skill tiles 06:00:53 -!- Guest21182 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:01:18 No Lord of Light in the libraries of Oulu.. I could request it from some other library probably it occurs to me 06:01:31 Keskitalo: University library? 06:01:40 Or is that a public library 06:02:08 public, has a decent amount of Zelazny but not that one 06:02:11 Visisted slime 6 as soon as soon as I got a message saying "treasures of the Slime Pits are unsealed." Which is actually misleading, in that it's actually optimal to visit slime pits before you have that high of a piety. Then all the walls just turn into glass walls which can be dug (and keep the slimes away from the treasure). If your piety is high enough, the walls outright disappear. Lost a fair amount of treasure to slimes eating them. Might be an oversi 06:02:14 I didn't check the uni library 06:02:53 Zelazny is rather underrepresented in most stores here, but I can always find Lord of Light and the great book of Amber 06:03:18 Lord of Light mostly because it was published in a series called Fantasy Masterworks collecting stories from lots of authors 06:03:36 greensnark, fantasy masterworks? I have lord of light published in science fiction masterworks here :P 06:03:54 I think I also found Poul Anderson's Broken Sword first under the fantasy masterworks label 06:04:02 Zaba: Hah, same here 06:04:59 Hey, wikipedia has the list: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fantasy_Masterworks 06:05:15 Didn't know Fevre Dream was on the list 06:05:35 <3 Lyonesse too 06:06:26 -!- galehar has quit [Quit: disconnect] 06:06:54 -!- paxed has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:07:58 anyone willing to talk about the Jiyva + Slime:6 issues? 06:08:09 What are these issues 06:08:14 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 06:08:20 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 06:08:38 ^ the long rant I pasted 06:08:50 six minutes ago 06:09:27 So when you get the message the treasure vault walls disappear? 06:10:38 I have uploaded a couple of screenshots of the new layout with detached tabs 06:10:40 Why not just create an inedible door in chamber walls for Jiyva worshippers if we don't want them to have to dig 06:10:43 http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/Low-res-layout.png 06:10:46 http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/High-res-layout.png 06:11:55 IIRC the chambers never lose the FPROP_NO_JIYVA tag which should stop jellies from eating 06:12:35 galehar: Oh yes, the detached tabs are <3 <3 <3 <3 06:12:41 :) 06:12:56 kilobyte: the SA report told that jellies ate stuff. 06:13:29 no, I'm wrong, I made that drop the flag 06:13:48 greensnark: I think the problem is this: J worshippers should get something special on Slime:6. We don't want them to have access to all the loot right away (with puny piety). 06:14:19 A simple solution would be to have the closets work for Jiyvaists like for everyone (no cTele, no digging) until piety break point. 06:14:39 The drawback of that is that they could be tempted to teleport around until they get into the chambers. 06:15:44 I suppose the scummy types might do that 06:16:00 I've never had the inclination to try, though :) 06:16:32 We could just make the chambers no-random-teleport if that's a problem 06:17:07 sounds like a good idea 06:18:03 +1 06:18:32 You have to think like a deceiving scoundrel when it comes to players. 06:19:15 They would even proliferate jellies so as to increase chances for random teleports to land in the chambers. 06:23:17 -!- galehar has quit [Quit: disconnect] 06:29:13 greensnark, if a function needs to return two coord_defs, what's the best way to do that? 06:30:03 Use pointer out params unless it's a logical region and you want to use dgn_region or whatever 06:30:18 hmm, fine. 06:34:42 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 06:35:01 -!- valrus has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:35:04 -!- valrus_ has joined ##crawl-dev 06:36:52 !tell galehar You're a tad too open for criticism, I think. The reaction you got on the forum is normal. New stuff is generally disliked, and negative reactions are the norm. Reducing modality in the m screen is worth showing more numbers. 06:36:54 dpeg: OK, I'll let galehar know. 06:37:08 I would like to advise fellow developers to never overestimate the values of players, moral and otherwise. 06:38:25 * greensnark is a player :( 06:38:28 omg u like totally suk 06:38:47 Adeon got it :) 06:39:16 * dpeg is a friend of positive, uplifting messages. 06:45:21 !tell galehar It appears that sometimes Putty ends up with 78x24 in the default setting if you choosen 80x25 then fullscreen. It might be good to relax the requirements by those two columns, especially that the skills screen somehow starts at column 2 not 1. 06:45:22 kilobyte: OK, I'll let galehar know. 06:45:51 "choosen"... someone needs to kick me 06:46:57 kilobyte: it's not that bad :) 06:49:06 kilobyte: You loose :D 06:51:59 Please have a look if doors from vaults are suspiciously absent in trunk games. When testing the new temple maps, all doors were missing. I chalked that up on wizmode, but perhaps it's more than that. 06:53:32 03kilobyte * r4a84de9cd270 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/branches/slime.des: Prevent randomly teleporting into the Slime:6 loot chambers. 06:54:03 i've had doors in vaults fail to generate in the past, but usually only one or two, and rarely. 06:54:28 the doors at the entrance of my dis vault used to completely fail to appear sometimes. 06:54:31 -!- valrus_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:54:49 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 06:55:24 Mu_: we are loosing door generation 06:55:30 kilobyte: thank you! 06:55:58 That should be accompanied by a change for J worshipers (don't remove walls at piety below threshold)? 06:56:19 dpeg, what vaults are affected? 06:56:31 and, what version 06:56:45 I think I've had _check_doors broken horribly at some point, but I fixed it later. 06:57:45 I don't see any problems with doors in vaults in the latest master, at least. 06:57:49 Zaba: Zaba I can vouch for cyrus_temple_forest 06:58:33 it _looks_ like that function is called in two cases: when you reach ****** piety, and when the Royal Jelly dies 06:58:50 dpeg, what exactly is the affected version of crawl? 06:59:03 Zaba: a trunk as of yesterday 06:59:42 kilobyte: there are two effects: walls turning translucent/diggable (plus enabling of cTele); and removal of walls. 07:00:40 dpeg, well, the _check_doors breakage of mine sounds likely to be the cause, and I have fixed that 07:00:41 they all go through one function 07:00:59 Zaba: was that recently? 07:01:20 I fixed it yesterday in the morning 07:01:23 ah 07:10:29 Zaba: just tested it, they're back. Thank you! 07:11:23 good to know 07:13:24 -!- casmith789 has joined ##crawl-dev 07:18:34 -!- paxed has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:19:36 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 07:27:29 -!- cw_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:27:32 geez.. simple shadow wraith drains me partially -> 9000xp?! 07:30:55 draining always has been that nasty 07:31:17 a single fight can easily drop you a level or two :( 07:31:21 03Keskitalo * rc900f87e9a57 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/entry/entry_small.des: Add two entry vaults from Saegor. (#2992) 07:32:16 being used to EV rather than AC, I got hit really badly on my MDFi that splatted after 5 runes 07:33:44 EV makes drain just nasty, AC means rN+++ or oy vey 07:34:07 dpeg: I unassigned the other entry vault patch, but they do look really good 07:38:18 Recite's cause fear does nothing (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3022) by MarvintheParanoidAndroid 07:38:41 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:41:42 -!- paxed has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:43:12 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 07:43:20 Recite cannot be used on hasted or frenzied enemies (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3023) by MarvintheParanoidAndroid 07:46:51 are the tiles for deep dwarfes currently missing or is it a problem with my installation? 07:55:23 missing 07:55:45 thanks 08:05:47 -!- paxed has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:07:48 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 08:11:13 -!- Twilight-1 has joined ##crawl-dev 08:11:58 -!- Lollipop has left ##crawl-dev 08:18:49 -!- cw_ has joined ##crawl-dev 08:19:05 -!- cw_ has quit [Client Quit] 08:19:10 Keskitalo: will have a look later today 08:20:21 The entries are okay, but the item is not. will take care of that, too. 08:22:59 -!- Lollipop has joined ##crawl-dev 08:25:30 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 08:26:58 -!- paxed has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:28:01 lemuel_zombie_altar fails to keep its choice of god, and since it claims being a valid overflow for yred/kiku, this means you may lack one of them 08:28:35 Yaks and elephants both trample (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3024) by casmith789 08:29:43 we'd have to keep persistent data between reading the vault and generating the level the overflow is supposed to be placed, which would require some complex hackery 08:30:12 I'll just split the two variants between yred and kiku, making both plain fixed vaults, ok? 08:30:18 just split lemuel_zombie_altar into two vaults, yeah 08:30:48 it's ugly in terms of duplication of vault data 08:31:01 especially since the vault is quite complex 08:31:22 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 08:37:24 03kilobyte * rc5c39df8bc57 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/variable/altar.des: Split lemuel_zombie_altar into yred and kiku variants. 08:46:50 kilobyte: yes, good solution 09:09:36 -!- Moriasc has joined ##crawl-dev 09:14:19 -!- paxed has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:18:19 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 09:22:58 ugh. 09:25:07 greensnark, what the hell is FPROP_VAULT and why does it exist alongside MMT_VAULT. 09:25:41 is FPROP_VAULT used for anything? 09:25:52 I think zelgadis or jpeg added fprops 09:25:57 all vaults are marked with it, and labyrinth code checks for it 09:26:03 in 2 (two) places 09:26:04 I know fprops are used for blood and stuff 09:26:34 The map mask was not persisted before, so fprops are probably around as an alternative 09:27:05 should I change it to use MMT_VAULT instead? 09:27:10 Since we save the map mask now, it should be safe to get rid of FPROP_VAULT, yes 09:27:16 I think the other fprops are useful 09:27:24 yeah. 09:29:29 -!- Textmode has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:30:22 -!- Pialein has left ##crawl-dev 09:31:11 -!- Lollipop has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:38:00 -!- paxed has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:38:29 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:41:54 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 09:44:02 -!- Moriasc_ has joined ##crawl-dev 09:45:02 -!- Moriasc has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:45:12 -!- Moriasc_ is now known as Moriasc 09:55:03 guys, is this true? http://crawl.develz.org/info/index.php?q=dragon+hide 09:55:17 AC of Dragon Armours got reduced? 09:55:37 that's dragon hides 09:55:49 not the armour 09:56:30 ??dragon hide[2] 09:56:30 dragon hide[2/2]: Hides: steam: AC2, EV0, rSteam; mottled: AC3, EV-1, rStickyFlame; swamp: AC3, EV-2, rPois; vanilla (fire) dragon: AC3, EV-3, rF++ rC-; ice: AC4, EV-3, rC++, rF-; storm: AC4, EV-4, rElec; gold: AC4, EV-5; rF+ rC+ rPois 09:57:32 the hides always did provide the additional branf protection too? :-O 09:57:48 No, hides providing resists is recent 09:57:53 I think 0.6 09:57:59 oh ok 09:58:15 still searching for that old overview of those dragon armours then 09:58:28 ??dragon armour 09:58:28 dragon armour[1/3]: A magical armour, made from the scales of a fire-breathing dragon. It provides great protection from the effects of fire, but renders its wearer more susceptible to the effects of cold. (AC 8, EV -3, ++fire, -cold, 35 aum). All races but felids can wear this. 09:58:57 ah, got it 09:59:07 ??dragon armour comparison[2] 09:59:08 dragon armour comparison[2/2]: Dragon: (h) AC8 EV-3 rF++ rC- 35aum | Ice dragon: (h) AC9 EV-3 rC++ rF- 35aum | Storm dragon: (h) AC10 EV-5 rElec 60aum | Gold dragon: (h) AC13 EV-9 rF+ rC+ rPois 110aum 09:59:30 and [1] too 09:59:41 those entries should be merged, me thinks 10:01:24 -!- paxed has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:05:29 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 10:08:39 03zaba * r985b38961700 10/crawl-ref/source/dungeon.cc: Clean _make_trail up: remove temp_rand and obsolete comments. 10:08:42 03zaba * r372a8b39f359 10/crawl-ref/source/dungeon.cc: _make_trail: Factor out some common code into a separate function. 10:08:44 03zaba * re413ec389100 10/crawl-ref/source/dungeon.cc: _make_trail: Remvoe some bounds checking. 10:08:45 03zaba * raf43cc036aa7 10/crawl-ref/source/dungeon.cc: _make_trail: Pass the beginning/end coordinates in coord_defs. 10:08:46 03zaba * r7f37bd8a919c 10/crawl-ref/source/dungeon.cc: _make_trail: Turn dir_x/dir_y into a coord_def. 10:08:49 03zaba * r39b11638eabd 10/crawl-ref/source/dungeon.cc: _make_trail: Turn x_ps/y_ps into coord_def pos. Also use it instead of [xy]_start. 10:08:51 03zaba * ra775628f97c5 10/crawl-ref/source/dungeon.cc: _make_trail: Use a while loop instead of do {} while. 10:08:55 03zaba * r6bb017a86ab2 10/crawl-ref/source/ (dungeon.cc effects.cc fprop.h): Use MMT_VAULT instead of FPROP_VAULT, and remove the latter. 10:11:21 w00t 10:11:27 !coffee Zaba 10:11:27 * Henzell hands Zaba a cup of black coffee, brewed by Makhleb. 10:12:05 Zaba: < Adeon> the devteam is clearly losing it. there is a spelling error in one of the commits 10:12:10 6bb017a86ab2 affects saves that were made in labyrinth, by letting the change code mess with vaults. But who cares. 10:12:21 omgomg! 10:12:43 greensnark, I'm ill. I make typos in every thousandth word that I type. 10:12:55 lol 10:13:10 I generally don't bother to count to thousand each time I want to make a typo 10:13:10 erm.. i mean - hope you get better quickly! 10:13:20 !coffee Zaba 10:13:20 * Henzell hands Zaba a pot of caf mocha, brewed by Kikubaaqudgha. 10:13:24 That'll fix you right up 10:13:37 my temperature is already higher than normal without any coffee consumption 10:14:29 bhaak: Observe: the DCSS devteam is tireless; people work even when sick! 10:16:02 anyway, _make_trail looks a little bit more understandable now 10:16:22 You should drink some brandy and go to sleep :) 10:16:46 * greensnark is reminded of his former colleague who came down with an annoyingly persistent cold 10:17:07 The cold lasted three weeks and each night he drank a lot of brandy to cope with it 10:17:16 At the end of the three weeks he had to be treated for liver function 10:17:32 uh oh 10:17:48 He was ordered not to touch alcohol for another six moths :P 10:17:50 Er, months 10:18:18 drinking brandy to cope with a cold, that sounds like overreacting to me 10:18:30 Depends on the brandy 10:21:22 greensnark, anyway... there was the idea of adding a lua api function for checking a specific area for a map mask. But wouldn't it be sort of ugly wtih regard to coordinates? It'd have to take grd coordinates, which don't necessarily match the mapgrd ones... 10:21:50 the current dgn.in_vault suffers from the same problem. 10:22:41 Well, checking for a map mask obviously has to be on the real grid. 10:23:05 If this is for layout Lua, we should just provide a standard function to set up a full-sized vault map matching the size of a dungeon level 10:23:23 well, yes, it's for layout lua 10:23:49 I guess.. 10:24:21 This is specifically for layouts applied after a primary vault, correct? 10:24:50 I guess.. 10:25:04 (heh, how come that line was the same as the previous) 10:25:30 hmm.. the title of my demonspawn chaos knight of makhleb is jumping between "Champion of Chaos" and "Pandemonic" seemly randomly.. without going a point in skills, at least. any idea why? 10:25:44 another issue with lua layouts that create postvault levels is that various api functions (join_the_dots, make_*, etc.) are not aware of the map mask, and, given their ability to work for all kinds of vaults, ti's not clear how to make them aware of it properly 10:25:46 Napkin: Piety 10:25:55 it's* 10:25:55 ahhh 10:26:02 thanks! 10:26:05 stupid me 10:26:59 -!- paxed has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:27:00 greensnark, personally, I'd rather review the way primary vaults are done, than beat map masks into the dungeon builder lua api... 10:27:51 the ideas are probably comparably bad 10:28:21 Zaba: You could change the sequence to build layout rooms+corridors -> apply primary vault -> add stairs+extras 10:28:47 greensnark, that'd make the primary vault overwrite a part of the layout 10:28:53 Yes 10:28:58 Just like secondary vaults 10:29:01 yep 10:29:04 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 10:29:11 But with more flexibility in overwriting stuff because it happens earlier 10:29:54 but.. hmm. 10:30:34 greensnark, I'm sure it would mess up Dis:7 in an obvious way, though 10:30:44 How so 10:31:15 If the layout uses exotic stuff like metal walls you'd need to a) let the vault overwrite such features b) let the vault connection code dig through such features 10:31:22 partially overwritten rooms and such 10:31:37 Well, you get partially overwritten rooms all the time now 10:31:44 Overwritten by secondary vaults 10:31:57 well yes, but on Dis:7, it's city-like rooms 10:32:07 which are much uglier when overwritten 10:33:14 and I'm not sure how Swamp:5 would look like, either 10:36:41 greensnark, as of the usual rooms builder.. I think that one wouldn't look bad when overwritten, nor would it make the vault look much worse. 10:37:07 Zaba: Go for it :) 10:37:12 * greensnark off to bed. 10:37:28 -!- eith_ has joined ##crawl-dev 10:39:19 -!- eith_ is now known as eith 10:48:40 -!- paxed has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:52:38 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 11:02:14 huh. 11:05:36 -!- Moriasc has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.13/20101203075014]] 11:11:57 -!- paxed has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:16:12 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 11:34:55 -!- paxed has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:35:14 Zaba: ha! 11:35:40 well, I made it so _build_postvault_level is called before the primary vault is placed, and I'm not really satisfied with the result. 11:36:01 only swamp is unaffected; Dis:7 has rooms messed up as expected, and normal _build_rooms levels have a lot of ugly dead ends... 11:38:13 hrm 11:38:31 03galehar * r3856183b9e88 10/crawl-ref/source/tilesdl.cc: Increase tab margin. 11:38:34 and it doesn't immediately make it easy to clean the whole code path up, either. 11:38:46 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 11:38:53 03galehar * r542ef8ef20c3 10/crawl-ref/source/tilesdl.cc: Limit detached monster tab to 3 lines. 11:38:54 03galehar * raa9f564decab 10/crawl-ref/source/ (menu.cc menu.h skills2.cc): Skill menu: vertically align text with icons. 11:38:58 so I guess i will leave it as it is now for the time being. 11:39:44 hmm.. 11:39:52 the build_rooms problem could be solved by simply removing _build_rooms, of course. 11:40:43 it would be trivial to tweak _plan_3 so it's basically a blend of existing _plan_3 and _build_rooms 11:41:34 of course, there's still the problem with the fact only non-encompass vaults require a level to be built... and if we build the level before attempting to build any vault, how do we know whether we're going to place an encompass vault? 11:41:43 I don't know how to solve -that- best 11:44:41 Trying to wield vampiric 2 handed weapons with a shield gives away information (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3025) by casmith789 11:48:35 -!- Sequell has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:51:29 Zaba: unless you post maps for us to judge, you have to decide alone (we trust you!) 11:52:20 I'm going to look into this in more depth later, I think. 11:58:43 -!- paxed has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:03:22 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 12:03:30 -!- paxed has quit [Changing host] 12:03:30 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 12:12:11 -!- Sequell has joined ##crawl-dev 12:23:09 -!- paxed has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:24:08 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 12:26:12 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 12:26:56 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 12:37:26 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:49:25 -!- paxed has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:50:31 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 13:22:24 dpeg: http://sprunge.us/JRgO 13:22:39 Nolithius' island algorithm 13:24:41 in other news, my home desktop let out some nice burn smoke... and coding on n900's keyboard royally sucks 13:26:15 Fog scroll, eh? 13:26:24 back 13:26:52 kilobyte: <3 13:27:15 kilobyte: for the map, that is, not the smoke 13:28:46 our current shoal maps are better, but this one could be used for some caves/etc 13:29:06 or, if we applied some shape another way 13:29:35 like, by seeding some separate islands and passages between them 13:30:18 Zot Defense map is shrouded, but visible on minimap (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3026) by ekolis 13:31:57 kilobyte: yes 13:45:26 repurposed my router (an old P3 box)... yay for an usable console 13:55:58 -!- paxed has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:58:06 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 13:58:12 03kilobyte 07layout * rf852982f66c7 10/ (coordit.cc coordit.h): Sync distance_iterator with trunk (actually, changes+testing were here first). 13:58:15 03kilobyte 07layout * rd3210b11b2bc 10/ (60 files in 2 dirs): Move everything to crawl-ref/source/ to make patches compatible with full Crawl. 13:58:18 03zaba 07layout * r43e10a138539 10/crawl-ref/source/coordit.h: Add orth_adjacent_iterator, and use it instead of using radius_iterator directly. 13:58:20 03kilobyte 07layout * r5ab194d5e0b4 10/crawl-ref/source/ (perlin.cc perlin.h): A basic Perlin function. 13:58:23 03kilobyte 07layout * rdfad4f757ca3 10/crawl-ref/source/ (dgn-perlin.cc dgn-perlin.h main.cc): Raw perlin maps. 13:58:23 03kilobyte 07layout * r50e042c5da53 10/crawl-ref/source/dgn-perlin.cc: Use a water level that ensures 60% coverage of shallow water. 13:58:25 03kilobyte 07layout * r3f0d66c3639a 10/crawl-ref/source/dgn-perlin.cc: C++size a bit. 13:58:26 03kilobyte 07layout * r2a81f1252c6d 10/crawl-ref/source/ (coord.cc dgn-perlin.cc externs.h): Multiply the heightmap by Nolithius' roiling particle mask. 13:58:27 03kilobyte 07layout * rd4a24db8f475 10/crawl-ref/source/main.cc: A glyph for trees. 13:58:32 03kilobyte 07layout * r8050f161f165 10/crawl-ref/source/dgn-perlin.cc: Add trees to the island. 13:58:33 03kilobyte 07layout * rbe6ede57fd78 10/crawl-ref/source/dgn-perlin.cc: Step down heights near the border. 13:58:44 03kilobyte 07layout * r46c0588443a8 10/crawl-ref/source/ (5 files): Rename layout_perlin to layout_nolithius, we are likely to have other perlin-based generators. 13:58:44 03kilobyte 07layout * r6957c600db51 10/crawl-ref/source/dgn-nolithius.cc: Axe a debugging printf. 13:59:50 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 14:00:00 hi 14:00:01 galehar: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them. 14:00:04 !messages 14:00:05 (1/2) dpeg said (7h 23m 11s ago): You're a tad too open for criticism, I think. The reaction you got on the forum is normal. New stuff is generally disliked, and negative reactions are the norm. Reducing modality in the m screen is worth showing more numbers. 14:00:15 !messages 14:00:16 (1/1) kilobyte said (7h 14m 53s ago): It appears that sometimes Putty ends up with 78x24 in the default setting if you choosen 80x25 then fullscreen. It might be good to relax the requirements by those two columns, especially that the skills screen somehow starts at column 2 not 1. 14:00:50 galehar: Hi! 14:00:57 hey 14:03:23 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 14:03:57 -!- jld_ has joined ##crawl-dev 14:04:48 -!- jld_ is now known as __jld 14:05:33 -!- sorear has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:06:01 -!- sorear has joined ##crawl-dev 14:08:30 -!- sorear has quit [Client Quit] 14:08:50 -!- __jld has quit [Client Quit] 14:09:12 -!- jld has quit [Quit: SCIENCE] 14:09:23 -!- jld has joined ##crawl-dev 14:09:23 galehar: I was a little angry to see you be so forthcoming towards the players, only to prompt a "meh, don't like it" response. 14:13:10 -!- sorear has joined ##crawl-dev 14:13:31 you're right. It's just that I was expecting those critics and answered how they can eventually be addressed, even though I don't think they should. 14:13:37 I shouldn't be so nice :) 14:13:42 yes, seriously 14:13:49 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 14:13:51 however, I also started out being nice :) 14:14:11 Had an interesting discussion with Paul Dubois, our short-time dev who is a professional. 14:14:44 dpeg: How is Paul doing? 14:14:59 I don't think I know him. I would have remembered, that's a french name! 14:15:02 enne: he is fine. He seems to follow development, replied to something recently. 14:15:08 I hope he'll be back some day. 14:15:21 There are players whose feedback is worth pure gold, but generally speaking, you know these players. 14:15:38 From the average player, expect only ... average (or below) feedback. 14:15:58 "It's a great job, apart from the players." :) 14:16:49 I'll try to be nice only when the feedback is constructive :) 14:16:54 and if you've ever placed a microphone near its speaker, you'll know for some feedback you just have to cover your ears 14:17:24 (Talking of folks who aren't around much, I had lunch with haranp not so long ago. It was nice to get to meet him, finally.) 14:17:33 enne: wow, I envy you. 14:17:36 Where did you meet? 14:17:42 At work. :) 14:18:03 He was in California, briefly. 14:18:17 talking about constructive feedback, interesting proposal from danr about weapon stats 14:18:43 galehar: yes, I think I replied 14:19:01 you did 14:19:01 enne: ah, you're at CA? I always located you in good old Suomi. 14:19:13 woo california 14:19:45 galehar: I am pretty sure that this is the way to go. Nothing for 0.8, but the idea should migrate to the wiki and ripe. 14:20:26 ok 14:21:07 wait, there's a haranp and an enne who work for my company 14:21:39 well, that's a small world 14:22:37 Are you all evil googlists? 14:22:44 * dpeg feels threatened. 14:22:53 -!- dpeg is now known as dparanoeg 14:23:22 i am not evil 14:23:28 i'm chaotic neutral 14:23:29 :P 14:25:02 dpeg: Yeah, maybe. Also, I'm terribly amused that you continually think I'm a Finn. 14:25:19 enne: is there any relation between you and Finland? 14:25:54 dparanoeg: I'm ever-so-slightly Norwegian, but that's as close as it gets. 14:27:09 I will write "Enne is not a Finn" hundred times in my notebook. 14:28:17 dparanoeg: I don't mind. I'm just amused as the misconception. :) 14:57:16 03galehar * r8fd2f8386754 10/crawl-ref/source/skills2.cc: Skill menu: reduce the console requirements to 78x24. 15:04:49 -!- eith has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:10:55 galehar: great summary on the weapon stats forum entry 15:12:02 -!- dparanoeg is now known as dpeg 15:13:38 -!- elliptic has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:13:49 thanks 15:14:21 I have to say that the forum interface is well designed. 15:16:40 ??forum 15:16:40 forum[1/1]: http://dungeoncrawlstonesoup.freeforums.org/ 15:16:47 oops! 15:18:35 !learn add forum http://crawl.develz.org/tavern/ 15:18:36 forum[2/2]: http://crawl.develz.org/tavern/ 15:19:17 !learn edit forum[1] s/http/https/ 15:19:18 forum[1/2]: https://dungeoncrawlstonesoup.freeforums.org/ 15:19:23 er 15:19:24 argh 15:19:26 off by one error 15:19:34 !learn edit forum[2] s/http/https/ 15:19:34 forum[2/2]: https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/ 15:19:42 !learn edit forum[1] s/https/http/ 15:19:42 forum[1/2]: http://dungeoncrawlstonesoup.freeforums.org/ 15:19:48 you can rm the [1] 15:19:50 -!- upsy has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:19:54 !learn del learn[1] 15:19:55 Deleted learn[1/1]: see {howtousethelearndb} 15:19:57 it's no longer in use 15:20:03 argh 15:20:08 i am not using my brain 15:20:23 !learn add learn see {howtousethelearndb} 15:20:24 learn[1/1]: see {howtousethelearndb} 15:20:31 !learn del forum[1] 15:20:31 Deleted forum[1/2]: http://dungeoncrawlstonesoup.freeforums.org/ 15:20:34 ??learn 15:20:34 learndb[3/8]: "!learn add article_name article text" adds an article to the learndb. 15:20:51 oh good there's a redirect 15:21:00 ?? howtousethelearndb 15:21:01 learndb[3/8]: "!learn add article_name article text" adds an article to the learndb. 15:21:07 yeah, apparently a double redirect 15:21:10 ?? forum 15:21:10 forum[1/1]: https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/ 15:21:26 * Zannick is done messing with Henzell for today 15:21:39 could you please also link "tavern" to "forum"? 15:22:00 !learn add tavern see {forum} 15:22:00 tavern[1/1]: see {forum} 15:22:04 efb 15:22:13 thanks 15:28:27 -!- paxed has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:32:33 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 15:36:15 dpeg, care to elaborate on your praise for the forum interface? 15:37:36 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:37:52 Napkin: it is well done 15:38:02 whenever I needed something, it was there 15:38:34 sorting of stuff, and so on 15:38:34 ah, great 15:38:59 the only thing that's a little overwhelming are the huge thanks boxes -- sometimes longer than the actual comment 15:39:15 the text below you mean? 15:39:40 yeah.. but currently that's the only way to actually see that there was a "thanks" for a posting 15:40:05 and the rating needs to be enabled, otherwise the "toplist" wouldn't show anything 15:40:13 but i thought the same 15:40:22 yaks still have trampling on CDO 15:41:24 Napkin: I don't care too much about it -- there's no ads or other garbage, which is much more important 15:41:46 well, it was a highly desired feature 15:42:13 und unerwartet viel arbeit 15:43:54 and still not finished 15:51:44 Napkin: ah, I recall you shied away from hosting a forum 15:51:49 Is it too much? 15:51:55 What's missingß 15:52:10 "shied"? 15:52:39 nah, I was neutral towards the idea - but I thought you and greensnark and others didn't want one 15:54:54 setting up the forum was quite easy, as i have done it for some friends and for so-called "tremulous newbie community" too 15:55:27 isn't "shied away" a form of "to shy away"? 15:55:41 Napkin: I wanted to spare you the trouble 15:55:44 probably, never heard it being used like that though ;) 15:56:01 i'm glad i managed to make it authenticate against the mantis - didn't want to maintain another user database 15:56:04 also, I believe it's good if the players take matters in their own hands 15:56:13 Napkin: yes, that was a stroke of genius 15:56:23 * dpeg nails another medal to Napkin's knee 15:56:38 ^ This is why I moved my tournaments posting to the new forum. 15:56:58 oh, it wasn't too difficult - just a bit of hacking auth_db.php (default) and auth_ldap.php from the vanilla distribution together 15:57:18 yes, great, just read your post :) 15:58:06 I said naughty things about players today. Made even greensnark cringe :) 15:59:03 and, about what's not finished yet.. all addons, like thanks-for-post, only support the 2 default themes.. that's why the "toplist" and the "gratitudes" tables have a completely different layout than e.g. the "members" table 15:59:39 would like to make them look the same.. but adding the addon itself made me a bit tired already to do more work there ;) 15:59:52 hehe @ naughty things :D 16:01:14 i'm really curious about the 0.8 release 16:01:27 i have the impression there are a _lot_ of nice changes :) 16:02:05 since i decided to play the stable versions only, I'm missing out on all those new features... 16:02:10 omg 16:02:11 release already! ;> 16:02:21 March the earliest :) 16:02:28 sounds good :) 16:02:36 I love it that you did keeps playing. 16:02:41 +dad 16:02:53 made some comments about the new stuff to my dad 16:02:54 you ==> your dad :) 16:03:18 I don't think there aren't too many families where new features of Crawl can make it a dinner topic. 16:03:21 but he doubts going back to heavy armour.. now that he got a taste of what stealth can do :D 16:03:46 I won an Ash character, my first pure stabber, it was gorgeous. 16:03:51 managed to get him to try Merfolk Crusader 16:04:04 What about your mum, btw? 16:04:32 nah, not interested.. she prefers games like Rocks'n'Diamonds (free boulder dash clone) 16:04:39 I just checked, "shied" seems correct, but I had never seen it :) 16:04:50 anyway, leaving 16:04:53 good night 16:04:55 g'night galehar :) 16:05:19 but she's taking the crawl-talk at the dinner table bravely, dpeg ;> 16:05:39 galehar: bon nuit 16:05:45 Napkin: awesome 16:05:57 isn't that portoguese? ;) 16:06:37 galehar: ? 16:06:51 anyways, it's a crusader now for.. 2 weeks already 16:06:59 I had hoped it's French but, parbleu, my French is very rusty. 16:07:06 but he's choosing okawaru 16:08:09 Bonne nuit! in french, Boa noite! in portuguese 16:08:16 my bad :) 16:09:06 will those movable tabs make it to the tiles version? 16:09:16 that would be very, very useful 16:09:19 change of plan, I'm staying a bit :) 16:09:28 !tea galehar 16:09:44 "bonne nuit" is correct 16:09:48 blammo :) 16:09:56 nuit is feminine 16:10:03 you and your genders 16:10:13 * dpeg shakes head 16:10:30 Napkin: what do you mean about movable tabs? 16:10:36 it's tiles only! 16:10:45 that screenshot you posted yesterday 16:10:54 of course only tiles :) 16:11:06 it's in trunk 16:11:21 i think it would make the monster and spell tab much easier to use 16:11:39 Those tilist are getting all the interface sugar. 16:11:40 I didn't just uploaded the screenshot, I also pushed some code! :) 16:11:43 * dpeg is moping. 16:11:45 previously, at least, the inventory tab was open most of the time 16:12:06 galehar: Napkin just explained how he only plays stable these days. I don't get it either :) 16:12:16 yes! 16:12:26 you guys screwed me over too often ;-P 16:12:40 actually, not with bugs though 16:12:43 !hand Napkin screws 16:12:54 rather with changes on how things work ;) 16:13:10 thanks :D 16:13:14 playing trunk with tiles as a drawback. Tiles are often screwed and levels you've been look insane after upgrading. 16:13:25 s/as/has/ 16:13:40 oh, so you only upgrade after char death.. that's usually not too long a wait for me ;) 16:13:42 galehar: I couldn't know. I have a heart made from ascii. 16:14:23 dpeg: if you want the best of both worlds, make a tileset with letters for monsters. I used that when I was playing nethack. 16:14:26 how are the swamp trees? any new jungle tiles? 16:14:58 the pretty bright green trees somehow looked out of place 16:15:02 -!- paxed has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:15:14 galehar: yes, such a thing could pursuade me to check out tiles for reals. 16:15:16 at least when I watched by dad lately 16:15:40 an ascii tileset would be great, especially as one can use nicer antialiased and bordered fonts and such 16:15:47 isn't crawl's tiles version way too complicated to do that? 16:16:08 hmmm, sounds nice indeed 16:16:40 is it possible to navigate the tabs in tiles with keyboard? 16:17:00 Napkin: well, we would have to skip all the doll stuff, but this shouldn't be too hard 16:17:02 haha, the backlash when former console players demand keyboard only access to tiles :) 16:17:28 navigating the tabs with the keyboard? How? 16:17:41 well, that's the reason i don't use the tabs... no time to grab the mouse! ;) 16:17:48 ctrl+tab maybe? 16:17:57 ah, you mean to switch tab 16:18:11 that would be possible, sure 16:18:22 to switch them.. not sure how to move selection... 16:18:33 yes, same here. I'm playing tiles, but not with the mouse. 16:18:35 is that necessary at all? 16:18:57 what? 16:19:00 galehar: it should be possible to have very smooth mouse play, I've been thinking about that for a bit. 16:19:07 Would help if I touched tiles, I guess. 16:19:09 so select a field in a tab 16:19:32 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 16:19:36 Napkin: I don't see how it would be of any use 16:19:44 with the movable tabs, switching is not to important anymore 16:20:06 well, i could imagine, it's nice to pull up the description of something in the message view 16:20:29 my dad almost never does a right-click for description of spells, items, monsters.. 16:20:31 Napkin: the tabs are automatically detached if there is room, but they are not really moveable. I didn't implement drag'n drop! 16:20:33 hint: assign keyboard letters to stuff, so it is easy to access them 16:20:48 he only looks at the in-message-view-info while hovering the mouse over the stuff 16:20:50 hint: console supremacy 16:20:54 galehar: won't be long until players clamour for d'n d 16:21:10 Eronarn: this is not helpful. I have never played tiles, but always supported them. 16:21:22 oh.. automatically? hmm.. would have to see that 16:21:31 I won't be coding d'n d. Too much work for too little use. 16:21:32 dpeg: you know what has tiles support? Octopodes. 16:22:07 Napkin: some web pages have that: you press some key, and all frames or links get letters 16:22:13 galehar: I agree 16:22:14 Eronarn; really? You've drawned a tile for octopodes? 16:22:19 galehar: really! 16:22:37 Well, now I feel like I have to try them ;) 16:22:37 hmm, could work, yes.. but there is no functionality to display letters on the icons yet, is there? 16:22:44 dpeg: If players press 'i', then they get to the inventory tab, and everything has a letter. 16:22:45 galehar: we have polished the console interface considerably, and the time has come where ideas are put forward which would be gains, but too small ones for the worj. 16:23:00 enne: I assumed so :) 16:23:30 galehar: http://i53.tinypic.com/rapw9i.png 16:23:31 arranging tabs automatically is tricky.. will it separate the spells tab if i play a TrBe? 16:23:42 Napkin: the spell tab is also resized to add lines when you've learned more spell that can fit in one. 16:24:28 Napkin: if you don't know any spell, the spell tab doesn't show up 16:24:30 dpeg: one pet idea i have is to make it so that your current natural attack is listed on the 'Nothing wielded', instead 16:24:51 'bare hands', 'claws', 'venomous fangs' 16:24:55 so the spellbook tab is always merges with the inventory tab? 16:25:20 *merged 16:25:26 Eronarn: sounds good 16:25:45 and fairly easy to do, too, since we already have that code in place for blade hands 16:26:01 napkin: yes, the memorize and skill tabs are never detached 16:26:17 well, i'm not really representative, galehar.. usually "automatically" means for me, that the sorting, the order or the position is not to my taste and i turn a feature off. that's why i love to have stuff configurable 16:27:59 anyways, haven't seen it in action yet. and i bet my dad would love it in any case 16:28:01 Napkin: I try to make the game comes up with sane defaults and smart behaviour, and later, if needed, options can be added. 16:28:09 switching those tabs is very inconvenient for him 16:28:59 sure, no hurry :) i'm glad this feature is in - very much appreciated 16:29:36 perhaps we don't have to add options 16:29:43 that's my point 16:29:48 Everytime an option is added, dpeg loses some hp. 16:29:49 options rule! :> 16:29:58 You want to kill me! 16:30:06 erm, no! 16:30:16 !healwounds dpeg :-P 16:30:19 btw, I was thinking of adding a "kill options" page to the wiki 16:30:26 noooooooooooo! 16:30:35 starting with layout ones 16:31:10 :( 16:31:37 those are very important options *sweat* 16:32:30 Napkin: seriously, an overabundance of options is a sign of mediocre software. 16:32:40 far from it 16:32:50 view_max_width, view_max_height, msg_min_height, msg_max_height 16:32:57 why do we need all this? 16:32:58 omg! 16:32:58 Is this some software development schisma? 16:33:02 galehar: NO! 16:33:15 stop kidding me, guys 16:33:15 if you set them all, you end up with plenty of empty spaces 16:33:46 goood morning 16:33:50 You can build up good karma for the afterlife by squashing options. 16:33:51 hi 16:33:52 due: morning! 16:33:54 moin due! 16:34:05 help me - they want to take away my most important options! 16:34:19 what important options? 16:34:23 autopickup? 16:34:29 view_max_width = 81 16:34:29 view_max_height = 30 16:34:29 viewport 16:34:32 msg_min_height = 11 16:34:33 msg_max_height = 20 16:34:34 erm 16:34:44 I don't persoinally use them but a lot of other people do 16:34:46 seriously, please done :) 16:34:52 *don't 16:34:55 I don't think they should be removed 16:35:01 \o/ 16:35:04 There's no other way to set the viewport size, right? 16:35:15 my point is: just set msg_height, and the game use all the available space for the viewport 16:35:43 Napkin: is that sufficient? 16:35:50 actually, I've already done that to tiles in 0.8 16:35:55 +1 16:36:11 i play from at work and from at home - with different resolutions of desktops 16:36:20 The point is not to remove all options, but to make them meaningful, by adding better defaults, combining them etc. 16:36:39 forcing it permanently to 20 is not working at work, but not doing so at home would be a waste 16:36:51 you already removed them? damn :( 16:36:57 less technical and more user friendly 16:37:14 forcing which one to 20? 16:37:42 -> changing it every time i change computer.. or find a insufficient compromise 16:37:54 dpeg: while killing options is great you really need to find out whther or not people are using the options before killing them. 16:38:05 of course 16:38:13 due: sure 16:38:23 although that's a relative measure 16:38:39 even the most oscure and bizarre option will have its die-hard defenders 16:38:40 can we have a script parse user options on CAO/CDO and spit some stats? 16:38:58 to find the ones nobody use 16:38:59 ok, i'm shutting up now. but i'm quite unhappy about removing those options. 16:39:30 Napkin: don't shut up. If you need them, we'll keep them. 16:39:35 Napkin: are you playing console from both machines? 16:40:00 playing online from both, yes 16:40:13 I'm making a wiki page to explain exactly how I'm removing them and what is the new behaviour. 16:40:30 When it's done, tell me if it doesn't work for you! 16:40:40 galehar: and how previous behaviour is going to be implemented with the new behaviour? 16:41:13 Napkin: and the consoles have different numbers of lines? 16:41:50 03dpeg * r6d6ca65265f7 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/entry/entry_small.des: Remove an item from saegor's entry vault. 16:42:49 well, yes, at work there are smaller monitors 16:43:01 but it's also the same when I play with laptop 16:43:43 one option i totally agree to remove is "view_max_width" 16:44:15 that one i only set to max - so not to waste space on the right with emptiness 16:46:01 beep me again when you did, galehar? I'm not really watching the wiki much 16:46:25 sure 16:46:29 thanks 16:47:55 and yes, i can write something to analyze option usage on CDO 16:48:09 but - CDO doesn't have that many players.. many more on CAO 16:48:39 !coffee due 16:48:39 * Henzell hands due a cup of cappuccino, brewed by Kikubaaqudgha. 16:48:57 (sorry for immediately dragging you into this so early in the morning, due ;)) 16:52:07 https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:interface:options 16:53:30 you rock 16:53:39 thanks :) 16:54:09 galehar: you couldn't know, but I've spammed the mailing list twice with elaborate proposals to cut down on options. 16:54:48 dig the mails and put them on the wiki page! 16:54:52 But little happened: nobody is keen to discuss this (I understand), and there's always someone screaming if you remove the press-scrolllock-to-open-tins option. 16:55:52 In fact, I only got into the devteam because I started cleaning up the mess that was init.txt, thereby producing the accompanying documentation. 16:56:34 let me see if I can find them 16:57:05 galehar: "13 cells" - does that mean 13 lines? my char has 8 view radius.. plus the char are 17 lines 16:57:24 oups 16:57:27 is it possible now to play with less lines than your view radius? 16:57:32 no 16:57:43 that's just a mistake :) 16:57:51 ok :) 16:58:28 fixed 16:58:33 so, it's 17 + 6 + the famous empty line at bottom = 24 16:58:51 right? 16:58:56 yes! 16:59:23 what happens in a 24 lines terminal when msg_height is set to 10? 17:00:16 it's ignored 17:00:29 message is increased up to available size 17:00:37 I bet that's already the case. 17:00:46 no more exiting with "terminal too small"? that's cool 17:01:18 oh, yeah, you're right, it's not the case. 17:01:43 but sure, it would be better (and easy) to ignore the option 17:01:47 that's something that always forced me to modify the config when playing on laptop 17:02:01 (or phone) 17:02:05 aren't you playing tiles? 17:02:18 no, only when i'm offline - which doesn't happen too often 17:02:24 oh ok 17:03:01 but i used to - and, that's why i like the separated tabs to much, my dad only plays tiles 17:03:30 so, you get my point? smart behaviour, sane default, simple options, everyone's happy! 17:04:10 well, i still prefered to have view_max_height set to a value and have the message window adjust to that 17:04:53 but i can live with that the way you suggest 17:05:11 s/that// 17:06:36 there's a single limit, and there's two way to mesure it. I just figured that message lines are easier to understand. 17:07:16 I also don't see the point in having a message area of 30 lines if you increase the window. 17:07:36 A big viewport isn't much more useful, but it looks better IMHO 17:08:16 depends on what version you play 17:08:32 galehar: I agree, but I've seen rob play in huuuuuge screens 17:08:39 you mean in console a big viewport is ugly? 17:08:43 in tiles, since the right-click info is displayed there, it's more important 17:09:19 and 9 is too little 17:09:38 how dated is this list? http://pastebin.com/7bSckhDK 17:09:39 Napkin: good point. Then the "sane default" could be bigger for tiles. 17:09:55 especially because the well hidden value "weight" is at the very end 17:10:07 one of the reasons to to right-click in the console at all 17:11:19 I'll do some tests to find out a better default for tiles 17:11:29 which I would like to request again - make show_weights work in tiles too :) 17:11:46 (or whatever the exact name of that option is) 17:12:06 I tried to fix that a while ago 17:12:09 Napkin: that shouldn't be an option, but rather an in-game toggle 17:12:17 and I will again in the futur! 17:12:19 Ctrl-W, working in d and i lists 17:12:29 pardon? 17:12:37 show_weights 17:12:54 toggle is a good idea 17:12:59 and p lists (god i hope they still exist!) 17:13:01 this is much closer to what you want 17:13:03 Why not just show weights by default? 17:13:13 due: often unnecessary clutter 17:13:18 but it doesn't change the fact that in tiles, show_weight doesn't work with tile_menu_icons 17:13:20 Not really. 17:13:25 ctrl+w is very inconsistent with all the other shortcuts though 17:13:37 due: another bunch of numbers for new players 17:13:41 "I'm overburdened and I'm a new player and I have no idea what weighs what so I just have to randomly drop stuff because I didn't know a show_Weights option existed". 17:13:44 and the information is quite small 17:13:54 due: if you need it, it will be there 17:14:07 true - my dad was suffering from that.. dropping rings instead of one of the 50 wands 17:14:12 a sane default: automatically on at or near burdened 17:14:34 dpeg: that is partially a good idea, but then people only learn the base weights of things when burdened. 17:15:04 due: there are (a) the weight display when dropping, (b) the toggle, (c) examination of items 17:15:11 would be a great idea - if the weight wasn't also important for other stuff - like spell casting 17:15:44 weight has its place, but it is not important enough to be shown all the time, especially for new players 17:15:52 and wether you train dodging or amour more 17:16:01 *armour 17:16:11 btw, since aum is an arbitrary unit, we should really get rid of the decimals in weights 17:16:33 dpeg: That is a good idea, imho. 17:16:37 +1 17:16:54 multiply everything by 10 and drop the decimal point? 17:17:35 dpeg: I added the in-game toggle of show_weight to the wiki 17:17:36 isn't the decimal point just added for the display? 17:17:53 galehar: you rock harder :) 17:18:01 Napkin: it makes no point 17:18:03 i remember seeing tests like (armour_weight <800) 17:18:08 galehar: did you look at my pastebinned listß 17:18:14 I am 17:18:29 Napkin: I think some items turned out to be lighter than what someone considered as one aum 17:18:36 what's the HE mean? 17:18:40 yep 17:18:41 sultana, etc. 17:18:44 due: another solution is to rule that everything <1 aum gets assigned 1 aum 17:18:50 ah, right 17:19:00 please, no rounding 17:19:02 galehar: that was from the mail, it means Erik, Haran, Darshan 17:19:04 will make the tiny fruits dramatically bad 17:19:06 not again :> 17:19:09 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:19:13 okay, times ten then 17:19:21 yes, that makes more sense imo 17:19:30 though i think we should look at item weights too, some of them are goofy 17:19:35 like wands being 10 aum 17:19:47 wands weigh too much :/ 17:19:47 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 17:20:02 probably design decision ;) 17:20:27 a good one, imo 17:21:02 I already feel compelled to carry plenty of wands I don't use. Their weight is the only leash on this behaviour! 17:21:18 i disagree - people don't expect wands to be particularly weighty, because... they're wands 17:21:27 i was surprised when i found out that they're a major contributor to encumbrance 17:21:42 yeah 17:21:47 well, wands are very powerful 17:21:57 yes 17:22:05 so are demon whips 17:22:06 Can we weight wands according to usefulness? 17:22:08 gameplay > realism 17:22:13 due: no! 17:22:23 that will confuse more than it helps 17:22:38 the magic adds to its weight 17:22:44 :) 17:22:48 if we want lighter wands for the crappy wands, then we really need wands and megawands 17:23:13 wand of firestorm 100 aum 17:23:18 holy wands, huh? 17:23:18 the D&Disms of rods and staves are already taken, though 17:23:31 don't think harry-potter-mini-wands, think lord-of-the-rings-wands made out of heavy trees 17:23:38 bhaak: those are staves 17:23:56 small ones, but not even that small, either 17:24:01 Crawl wands are just a politically correct synonym for Panzerfaust. 17:24:03 dpeg: I don't know most of the options from your list. If we want to have some result, we should propose a sane default and/or a smart behaviour for each one. 17:24:06 i always think of a wand with a star at the end like they used to be in legos 17:24:10 lol, dpeg :d 17:24:45 As a German, I still have issues with the word "wand". (The German word "Wand" means wall.) 17:24:50 then wands are too light :) 17:25:15 no, heavy. they are too heavy 17:25:29 -!- paxed has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:25:32 for a panzerfaust, they are too light :-) 17:25:47 and they need to be 2-handed! 17:26:05 does it bother anyone else that wands don't need to be wielded to zap? :) 17:26:06 we're getting into Rückstoß territory too :) 17:26:28 so, we now have quad damage and rocket launcher. Let's tackle the 1st person view and we're done. 17:26:36 One of these releases we will have implicit butchery. From time to time, a hopeful player adds a positive comment to the Mantis item :) 17:27:05 dpeg: modern ones don't have recoil 17:27:13 bhaak: interesting 17:27:52 actio and reactio, just let a corresponding mass get thrown out of the back -> never stand behind one :-) 17:27:53 I once bought a record (by a Norwegian band) exclusively because it was called "Panzerfaust". Happy days :] 17:27:57 dpeg: make cursed weapons = you have to wield this weapon every time you try to wield a weapon, but can put it away when you aren't using it. then add implicit butchery. will cut down on number of FRs by 50% or more! 17:28:29 Eronarn: what if there are several cursed weapons? 17:29:30 are there roguelikes that have wear and tear on weapons? 17:29:53 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 17:29:54 dpeg: whichever cursed one you last wielded 17:30:15 bhaak: hm... ADOM has it for armor; can't recall if weapons can be damaged too 17:30:27 incursion has it, i think 17:31:16 ADOM, hmm, looks like I have to give that one a few test games after all 17:31:29 bhaak: if you value your sanity, don't! 17:31:35 adom is very frustrating 17:31:41 but it is definitely worth a play 17:31:58 at least for long enough to get to the other side of the overworld 17:32:28 dpeg: I forked nethack and sokoban prizes are purple now, do you really think I have sanity to lose? 17:34:30 bhaak: you haven't seen ADOM yet 17:34:39 okay, neither have I, but I do value my sanity 17:35:52 In my unfinished writeup for next year's IRCD, I have something to say about ADOM's development 17:36:08 ideally, I'd get TB to comment himself, but that seems unlikely 17:37:51 dpeg: it's possible that I played a version on the amiga shortly after it came out, but it didn't make any impression I would remember 17:38:21 dpeg: he updated his blog recently, you know 17:38:29 and he's working on JADE again! 17:38:40 Eronarn: oh, he is alive and there are plans with JADE, I know 17:38:55 I think his approach is insane, however. :) 17:39:03 who doesn't? :) 17:39:06 insane? 17:39:14 Wow, JADE is real? 17:39:15 inefficient :) 17:39:21 I thought it was all rumour and myth. 17:39:21 bhaak: if you have played dwarf fortress - he is in a Mood. 17:39:22 what about iAdom? 17:39:38 due: there are screenshots of it and everything! 17:39:49 Eronarn: faked! 17:39:59 It will take over roguelike polls in 2011 :) 17:41:20 galehar: I am adding those old list to the options wiki, just checking the options still exist. 17:41:32 Eronarn: I tried the tutorials of DF. But after reading them for 4 hours and failing to understand what's going on on the screen, I decided that I already have enough timewasters. I'm also not really the dwarf manager type :) 17:41:36 I got lucky, and occasionally a particularly silly option axed. 17:42:18 i play df every now and then, though i'm still new and i still don't really get everything 17:42:18 i <3 DF 17:42:33 i get bored of it after a few years, though 17:42:38 so i never do the absurd megaprojects 17:43:19 tried minecraft? (I didn't) 17:45:23 no, minecraft = dwarf fortress - features + blocky graphics 17:45:25 Re: JADE. Next April Fool's we need to post about how we're halting development on Crawl in order to develop a next-gen roguelike engine. 17:45:54 a next-gen first person roguelike engine 17:45:56 oh, the guy who did the Amiga, Windows, BeOS and OSX ports of Adom is developing iAdom. That means, it might really happen 17:45:56 :D 17:46:02 enne: the first roguelike designed to take advantage of the semantic web 17:46:20 it can read YASD posts and understand them, offering real-time suggestions as to what actions to take 17:46:21 fight your way through invalid html pages? 17:46:27 Haha. 17:47:01 You see here a link to download dwarf fortress. 17:47:08 has a new unique, Wolfram 17:47:45 he's on the oracle level 17:47:52 inspired by innovative titles that seek to streamline gameplay, like Progress Quest 17:47:53 enne: what does "next-gen" stand for? 17:48:07 (I realise DCSS is a dinosaur, so more "previous-gen".) 17:48:28 hehe, it shows that dpeg is no gamer :) 17:48:35 next generation 17:48:40 dpeg: current gen of roguelikes: mostly quickly abandoned one-shots 17:48:41 that was obvious 17:48:45 but has it any meaning here? 17:48:51 which is fine, but i imagine it won't leave a very interesting legacy :) 17:49:04 if you knew what netxt-gen is, wouldn't you already have added it to crawl? 17:49:22 ah, I see, it is advertisement jargon 17:50:04 short for "we now know why the current $thing sucked, so the next-gen $thing will suck for different reasons" 17:50:13 I believe that Crawl has pushed roguelike development considerably (from its inception, not just Soup) 17:50:21 bhaak: <3 17:50:52 Sometimes it doesn't suck, but they have to pump out the sequels, which eventually have to start sucking. I know this from the HoMM series. 17:51:20 ofc :) 17:53:45 dpeg: when is the crawl sequel coming? 17:54:30 also, the conversation in ##crawl is making me think that we need a new spear base type: quadrent 17:54:53 or decadent, as per Galefury 17:55:41 I don't read ##crawl anymore. 17:58:41 did i mention.. that since i was in the hospital with laptop i got used to vi-keys for playing crawl? *blush* 17:58:47 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:58:49 kinda embarassing! 17:59:22 * dpeg nagelt Napking eine weitere Medaille ans Knie! 17:59:24 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 17:59:27 :( 17:59:34 the vi keys aren't embarassing! 17:59:55 Napkin: the German keyboard layout sucks, though. 18:00:07 of course! considering all the previous flame wars when i joined the numpad side ;) 18:00:23 yeah, i have them macroed y<->z 18:00:33 you don't need to use the layout that's printed on the keyboard :) 18:00:37 Is anyone here _not_ using colour_map? 18:01:07 bhaak: I know, I am a Latex typist (for which the US layout is much more convenient). 18:01:25 dpeg: is that a config variable? i haven't touched it, to be certain 18:01:26 habit, bhaak - can't get used to typing z to answer yes ;) 18:02:00 Napkin: build your own layout. I have american with z:=:y swapped and alt+vowel gives umlauts 18:02:27 i set only (m)acro, (x) level-map and (t)argeting 18:02:45 god no 18:02:58 would take me ages to get used to ;) 18:03:14 then i'd rather get an us-layout keyboard :) 18:03:31 those still have the y and z in the wrong places :) 18:06:07 but then i can get used to it.. within a week 18:06:12 had to a few times 18:12:27 -!- paxed has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:13:49 galehar: added a number of options to the wiki 18:16:51 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 18:18:35 -!- casmith789 has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:18:55 Napkin: now is the time to defend the option of your choice :) 18:19:04 https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:interface:options 18:19:14 03galehar * rae8da757dfc4 10/crawl-ref/source/items.cc: Don't prompt for quantity when picking up a pile of gold. 18:19:15 03galehar * r140642ffb051 10/crawl-ref/ (7 files in 2 dirs): Replace the tile_title_screen option by tile_skip_title. 18:19:17 03galehar * rf3b5c5cb9487 10/crawl-ref/source/startup.cc: Tiles: fix the startup menu width. 18:19:18 omg, too late for that no ;) 18:19:25 -!- casmith789 has joined ##crawl-dev 18:19:28 will try over the weekend though 18:19:31 cool 18:19:38 my list is very conservative 18:19:43 bookmarked 18:19:44 only cavemen would use those options :) 18:19:51 I didn't change the layout options 18:19:53 yet 18:20:11 just tweaked the title screen option 18:20:23 dpeg: thanks for this 18:20:42 this isn't a high priority, but I will look into this 18:20:45 galehar: cool 18:20:53 glad to have one coder who is on my side 18:21:36 the wiki can be a really useful tool to clean up the options 18:21:59 I think coders are generally happy about options, because it is much more cognitive work to think about defaults and stuff (especially when you add something new and are not sure if the old state should be available) than to add just another option. 18:22:20 right 18:22:35 Everyone who wants a new option should be forced to negotiate agreement to sacrifice another :) 18:24:12 19:23 < G-Flex> heh, I'm up to 197 HP 18:24:13 19:23 < G-Flex> and 45 AC 18:24:13 19:24 < G-Flex> things barely even hurt now 18:24:14 nerf!!!! 18:24:50 will come, no doubt 18:25:13 gdr seems tricky to balance 18:25:40 maybe we should try to improve the fight simulator :) 18:27:41 galehar: that would help a lot indeed 18:28:32 rob was working on that 18:28:33 but then, I'd just scale down the factor a bit -- last time we doubled GDR? 18:28:46 syllogism: yes, but he is now busy with his phd (as he should) 18:29:07 dpeg: nerf GDR, fix casting in armour ;) 18:29:35 dpeg: sure, we can continue to dichotomise :) 18:29:48 let's try 1.5 18:30:11 galehar: It should randomly chose at the start of the game, and not report until the end of it. 18:30:12 and improve fsim 18:30:22 I would rather use EV even with 2x GDR for what that's worth 18:32:09 st_: not worth much 18:32:38 galehar: yes, exactly, 1.5 now 18:33:09 dpeg: there was some indication that the current formula was bad on the lower end armours (leather, ring, etc.) 18:33:59 also, we should boost the effect of the armour skill on AEVP (or maybe just spellcasting) 18:34:18 galehar: why? Aren't people casting in armour enough? 18:34:21 galehar: did you hear my proposal for spellcasting? 18:34:27 dpeg: not at all 18:34:41 dpeg: I'm not sure 18:34:48 casting in armour is very difficult for most characters most of the game 18:35:21 it felt to me that at some point, it's more worth it to put XP into magic skills than armour to cast 5~6 level spells 18:35:23 wait, people still think gdr is overpowered after the last heavy armour nerf? 18:35:29 and the way it works is such that it is unfavorable to cast high-level spells with it, and high-level spells are good 18:35:36 Zannick: it's unnerfed in trunk 18:35:41 ah 18:35:47 remember, GDR used to be very good - there's reason to be cautious 18:36:14 but then I read on the forum that someone was casting tornado and other high level spells in plate. But he had uber skills. 18:36:14 -!- paxed has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:36:36 -!- pointless_ has joined ##crawl-dev 18:36:39 galehar: it will very often be better to raise spell skill than armour skill, to boost armoured spellcasting 18:37:00 As far as I understood syllogism, GDR never really meant much. Current trunk could be the first time it does. 18:37:25 galehar: I don't see what's wrong with chosing a middling armour if you want to hybridise. 18:37:27 galehar: marvinpa farmed abyss and did ziggurats 18:37:43 farmed abyss for ash reskilling 18:38:00 right that 18:38:12 dpeg: the problem is the way the penalty is applied 18:38:22 explain, please 18:39:07 spell failure is a success rate that is rolled against; raising spell skills directly boosts your success rate 18:39:12 armour directly subtracts from that rate 18:39:43 this means that armour is a constricted subset of the total range of success rates 18:40:16 it will be a very large negative factor initially, but once you get past a certain skill point, further success rate is very unimportant (because you roll against skill multiple times) 18:40:26 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 18:40:57 Eronarn: could write down a schematic formula? 18:41:00 in practice, this means: wearing armour = casting no spells, until you have a spell at a very high success rate, at which point wearing armour barely matters for that spell (even with no armour skill) 18:41:10 Eronarn: good point 18:41:26 the formula that i want to change it to is to use an independent failure rate for armour 18:41:43 Let's not reduce gdr. Instead nerf spellcasting even more for heavy armour 18:41:51 so that a super powerful DE caster can't put on armour and 'beat' its negative effect just because he has so much 'excess' success 18:42:12 someone wearing plate shouldn't be able to cast anything higher than 6, not matter the skills 18:42:36 galehar: i disagree: someone wearing plate should be significantly hampered on *all* spells, until their armour and strength make up for it 18:42:48 and their magic skill shouldn't affect that at all 18:42:58 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:43:14 but, if they have max armour skill - going around in plate as if it were clothing seems fine to me 18:43:28 plate is not the heaviest armour out there, after all 18:43:35 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 18:43:36 and crawl is a cinematic game 18:44:49 Eronarn: so in your model it'd be no spellcasting at all (assuming a fixed body armour, heavy for the current Armour skill); after Armour skill reaches breakpoint, it would be full spellcasting? 18:44:55 oh my what happened to spells1-N.cc 18:45:56 good things 18:46:12 is no silly file naming convention sacred... 18:46:44 dpeg: the formula i proposed used something like: 3*EVP% chance of failure (so ring mail = 6% chance), absolute, regardless of magical skills; half of penalty negated by armour skill, half of penalty negated by having appropriate strength for that armour (say, 3 or 4 * the armour's EVP) 18:47:37 Eronarn: I see 18:47:38 and overflow between the two halves counting at half rate - so having 10 armour skill when you need 5, but 0 str = negates 3/4 of your penalty (or something like that) 18:48:15 this looks good, but I'd suggest that we follow spider form and reserve a bit of that handicap to survive, no matter what Armour skill and strength are. 18:48:15 the numbers will need tweaking but i think the general principle is sound: you do not need very high fail penalties at all to make spellcasting a lot riskier in tight situations 18:48:21 I like your system, except I wouldn't allow to completely cancel it. Maybe 1*EVP chance at 27 skill. 18:48:32 great minds think alike :) 18:48:51 :) 18:49:01 galehar: i think completely canceling it is okay, for some point of armour - it is just the question of at which point it is okay to never fail from armour 18:49:08 whether that's plate, or leather, or what 18:49:18 there is a big range between robe and CPM 18:49:54 I wouldn't mind if CPM had a 10% failure chance, no matter what (and robe 0%, obviously). The formula needn't be linear. 18:49:55 does gda have more evp than cpm 18:50:18 9 for gda; 8 for cpm? 18:50:28 ??cpm 18:50:28 crystal plate mail[1/2]: 14AC, -8EV, 120 aum. The most massive heavy armour. Resists corrosion. It can be generated on D:1 very rarely. Of course, you will splat every time this happens. 18:50:39 oh, oops. i always mix that up 18:50:46 those numbers are not sacred, btw 18:50:49 ok, I'll think about it 18:50:55 but now, I sleep 18:51:02 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:51:11 -!- galehar has quit [Quit: disconnect] 18:51:23 as i see it the main advantage of such a formula is an effective nerf to super brainy casters, and an effective buff to muscly armoured hill orc or dwarf style ones 18:51:57 would make stuff like HOPr a lot more appealing 18:52:01 greensnark: bonne nuit 18:54:55 one thing I don't like (but maybe I am alone in this) is how things that are supposed to be bad at casting, like uncasty races and armour casting, tend to be more painful than actually bad; they take a lot of effort victory dancing up, but don't end up performing bad at all in the end, without too much harm to the progress of other skills 18:57:00 monky: eh, i think it works out okay - it's painful precisely because it does matter earlier game when you're dumping XP into skills that aren't helping you as much 18:57:19 more likely to die on a troll IE than a merfolk one 18:57:45 I mean it's painful to manually shovel so much exp 18:57:48 the merfolk will have had more chances to coast through parts of the game than the troll, all else being equal 18:58:39 the troll can coast through early game 18:59:31 -!- paxed has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:59:32 monky: this is rooted in the foundations of the game 18:59:41 you can skill as you want 19:00:16 heavy armour non-casters are nice because there's no victory dancing except perhaps a bit of T&D 19:01:09 I'm not too bugged about skilling any way you want; it's more that it's painful to do so, and in the end it strikes me as a big benefit for little loss 19:01:47 play ashenzari :P 19:02:28 monky: well, the trouble is with infinite xp 19:02:44 dpeg: no more XP gained after XL 27. Done. :D 19:02:48 I would be willing to sacrifice that, but I promised Erik to not do so. 19:03:03 dpeg: oh I'm not even talking about extended game, though I guess that would apply too 19:03:56 the insane stunts are only possible because there is so much (infinite) xp in the game 19:04:00 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 19:04:31 Eronarn: great, draining scumming :( 19:04:59 casmith789: no, just make draining set your XP pool negative 19:05:18 with a cap of -20000 it would still work 19:05:23 e.g. a heavy armour fighter (especially with a weapon that doesn't require all that much skill to reach minimum delay) is better with the Regeneration spell, and it can pick it up for almost no cost (but a bit of scumming and pain) later on 19:05:24 huh? 19:05:33 it's capped at 20000, not abs(20000)! 19:05:46 the latter would be too kind to the player 19:05:55 and if there's no cap that would be rubbish, I've lost 2 levels to shadow dragons in v:8 and an exp pool of -300000 would be ridiculous 19:06:16 monky: i think this is completley unavoidable in a game with spells as powerful as crawl's 19:06:41 Eronarn: I imagine another problem is fast weapons don't scale well with skill 19:07:10 Enslaved slime creatures merge with hostile slime creatures (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3027) by ledtim 19:07:17 monky: weapons in general are a problem 19:08:44 one of the virtues of Ash reskilling is that we see much better which skills are (at least perceived) as underpowered at high range 19:09:44 would it perhaps help at all to reduce exp later on and scale highlevel levelling apropriately, so it essentially costs more to train for e.g. regeneration later on? 19:09:52 anything that doesn't have a good high spell or a good 2H weapon that people like. For normal hybrids, most of the weapon classes 19:12:26 monky: i think we might be better off with making skills globally cost more to train, the more levels of skills you have 19:13:06 arranged in such a way to penalize dabbling 19:20:41 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 19:30:09 -!- syllogism has quit [] 19:32:00 -!- Textmode has quit [*.net *.split] 19:32:00 -!- blackpenguin has quit [*.net *.split] 19:32:18 Pond serial vaults (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3028) by minmay 19:35:47 -!- ortoslon has joined ##crawl-dev 19:38:49 -!- Mu_ has quit [Quit: Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place.] 19:39:09 -!- blackpenguin has joined ##crawl-dev 19:40:14 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 19:40:40 what's the rationale for prompting number of items to pick up? 19:42:21 Tiles: ghost without blade hands shows blade hands (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3029) by minmay 19:43:16 well it's very useful behavior, but it might be better on a key people aren't already used to 19:43:20 pointless_: in tiles you can pick up of a stack even if there is no other item. In order to provide the same functionality in console, the 'g' and ',' commands have been split. 19:43:21 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 19:43:37 pick up _part_ of a stack 19:44:00 someone asking about how to report a bug: https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=91 :D 19:44:01 (I personally like g for picking up part of a stack and , for other pickup, but I guess other people don't) 19:44:05 is this one of these things were people are going to call me reactionary if I complain about it? 19:44:13 g'night! 19:44:20 night! 19:44:25 pointless_: yes 19:44:32 much like all UI changes 19:44:36 oh well 19:44:45 You can easily swap the behaviour between 'g' and ','. 19:45:01 pointless_: in trunk, you are not prompted for stacks of gold anymore. 19:45:03 20:44 <@dpeg> pointless_: yes 19:45:03 20:44 <+pointless_> much like all UI changes 19:45:04 heh 19:45:24 pointless_: we want full symmetry between tiles and console. 19:45:47 well I don't really like it but I'm not in a position to win arguments now, so I'll just add another line to my config 19:46:02 -!- paxed has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:47:26 should I commit a change to make monster set a new wander target if they can't find a move that takes them closer to the current one (this instead of relying on a 1 in 20 chance of randomly changing wander target)? 19:47:32 pointless_: yes, I know. But the idea that someone might save a console game and switch to tiles to pick up a single item out of a stack is unbearable. 19:48:11 pointless_: does it work better with your change? 19:48:40 well it depends on what we want to do, with this change wandering monsters will tend not to stay stuck in corners as long 19:48:50 they'll generally wander around more 19:49:16 seems good 19:49:57 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 19:52:25 Annoying pickup prompt (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3030) by ekolis 19:53:11 pointless_: ^ :) 19:53:15 why did we switch to the prompt anyway? 19:55:28 03pointless_ * re14d5d330f29 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-act.cc: If a wandering monster fails to move, try a new wander target 19:56:38 sorear: see above 19:56:52 because tiles players can pick up part of a stack in a single turn 19:57:01 console players needed two turns so far 19:57:45 part of a stack of one item, that is 19:57:49 yes 19:58:17 pointless_: I have not had a chance to sort out the malign gateway thing but as far as I'm aware it used to work before and now doesn't; something to do with it unmarshalling the casting monster and then dying. 19:58:29 in hindsight, it might be better to put the new pickup command on , since then we can make ,=yes on the prompt, so that ,, picks up a stack of darts in two keystrokes (and one turn) 19:58:48 yeah I don't really know anything about crawl save handling, so I'm out of my depth on that, given limited availability 19:59:24 crashing on std::string::clear shouldn't really happen, I'd offhand guess there is an overrun somehow, and that is just triggering the crash 19:59:34 last that=call to clear 20:00:23 dpeg: erm? console players have always been able to pick up part of a stack in a single turn 20:00:30 sorear: how? 20:00:35 14, 20:01:02 nobody knew this :) 20:01:32 I cannot check right now and it is 3am -- would you write a mail to c-r-d and mention that? 20:01:59 I cannot check right now either 20:02:16 does anyone have Crawl running right now? 20:03:51 how do I do this; literally 14, ? 20:04:02 doesn't work too well online; it thinks 1 is down-left 20:04:05 monky: yes, drop a bunch of darts or something on an empty square 20:04:38 yeah I dropped my bread rations 20:04:44 monky: numpad with Numlock on and off? 20:04:51 I'm not using numpad but I'll try that 20:05:31 Relying on the numpad sounds a bit brittle to me, considering that shift-movement doesn't work with most terminals even. 20:05:34 doesn't work either way 20:05:41 I wouldn't trust it to distinguish between numlock'd and not. 20:05:46 ok, thanks 20:06:11 I'll try my local wizmode 20:06:29 I sleep, please !tell me the results. 20:06:33 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: zzz] 20:07:19 -!- ortoslon has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:09:48 !tell dpeg 14, didn't work for picking up part of a stack locally either, with both numrow and numlock with either numlock configuration. 20:09:48 monky: OK, I'll let dpeg know. 20:11:51 -!- paxed has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:12:31 new sprint map (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3031) by 78291 20:13:33 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 20:36:07 -!- paxed has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:37:08 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 20:48:37 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:52:44 (Most) eldritch tentacle tiles (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3032) by psyshvl 20:58:01 <3333 20:59:31 -!- paxed has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:00:43 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 21:01:10 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 21:06:06 -!- MaulingMonkey has joined ##crawl-dev 21:07:06 numpad 9 is different from numrow 9 entering a password on CAO and CDO. I can't find a bug tracker for dgamelaunch. Should I report it on the crawl tracker? 21:08:06 MaulingMonkey: You poke paxed or Napkin in these instances. 21:08:23 Are you sure that your numlock is on? 21:08:28 Yep. 21:08:29 (Yes, stupid, but...) 21:08:37 Doesn't hurt to ask :) 21:08:46 Yeah :) 21:08:53 It might be related to the keypad setting mentioned on http://crawl.chaosforge.org/index.php?title=Crawl.akrasiac.org 21:09:10 How are you connecting? Putty? 21:09:18 yes 21:09:56 Are you using the nethack keypad option? 21:10:14 Yes. 21:10:22 * due makes sign to ward off evil at mention of putty and its handling of keycodes etc 21:10:22 working as designed 21:10:35 with nethack keypad mode enabled, numpad 9 sends "u" to the server 21:10:37 Huh, who runs NEO? 21:10:59 Ahh. Should I make a note on the wiki then perhaps? 21:12:25 couldn't hurt. 21:14:43 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 21:16:18 I'll do that then. Thanks! 21:16:21 -!- MaulingMonkey has left ##crawl-dev 21:22:16 -!- paxed has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:23:17 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 21:30:46 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 21:35:55 -!- pointless_ has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.7/20100713130626]] 21:45:40 -!- paxed has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:46:53 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 22:08:09 Crash in Coc:4, possibly due to Kraken (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3033) by tempest 22:09:04 -!- paxed has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:10:28 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 22:29:13 -!- paxed has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:33:02 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 22:40:47 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:40:59 -!- st_ has quit [] 22:49:01 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 22:54:34 -!- paxed has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:55:36 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 23:00:11 -!- casmith789 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:17:58 -!- paxed has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:19:11 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 23:41:06 -!- paxed has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:42:46 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 23:53:45 The game says that a staff of death is "an evil item" without actually identifying it. (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3034) by elliptic 23:56:06 -!- upsy has joined ##crawl-dev