00:08:10 -!- slyshy has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 00:19:56 -!- TGWi has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:29:53 -!- gamefreak264 has joined ##crawl-dev 00:45:16 -!- Twinge has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:46:55 -!- Twinge has joined ##crawl-dev 01:02:12 -!- Noom has joined ##crawl-dev 01:16:26 -!- upsy has joined ##crawl-dev 01:47:22 -!- Twinge has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:48:01 -!- Twinge has joined ##crawl-dev 01:48:58 -!- Icelos has joined ##crawl-dev 01:49:41 -!- Twinge_ has joined ##crawl-dev 01:52:43 -!- Twinge has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:58:35 -!- Noom has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:08:20 -!- Twinge_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:09:19 -!- Twinge has joined ##crawl-dev 02:14:04 -!- Twinge has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:14:44 -!- Twinge has joined ##crawl-dev 02:24:25 -!- Icelos has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 02:32:35 -!- Twinge has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:33:54 -!- Twinge has joined ##crawl-dev 02:37:04 -!- Icelos has joined ##crawl-dev 03:05:51 -!- monky has quit [Quit: hello] 03:06:42 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 03:06:50 hi 03:11:54 Hi 03:12:23 hI 03:15:52 HI 03:17:03 kilobyte: that would only have worked if your nick was hsorter than mine. 03:17:36 I thought it's about different combinations of capitalizing letters of "hi" 03:17:52 as well as the diminishing length of username. 03:18:28 oh well... 03:18:52 :D 03:20:17 galehar, Eronarn: (about the conversation from 11.5 hours ago): having cone spells would require rewriting the targetting interface. However, it already fails to handle clouds, storms, reflected beams and has problems with beams that always stop. 03:21:28 my idea would be to give it a function^Wobject that answers the question "if the player/monster aims at location X, will this location Y be affected?" 03:22:43 with perhaps a new colour for places the beam passes through but doesn't damage, to visualize non-smite explosions better 03:23:43 ??ice storm[4] 03:23:43 ice storm[4/4]: Be careful not to catch yourself in the blast! If you are (4,0) or (3,2) squares away from the center, then you are safe. 03:23:43 Yred'd animate remains now costing 2MP while a HuPr starts with 1 kind of dimishes the whole "useful from turn 1" thing of starting gods 03:23:46 Cone shaped spells? 03:24:05 st_: When did that get changed? 03:24:06 for one, I'd want to avoid forcing players to spoilers like ice storm[4] 03:24:31 it got combined with animate dead 03:24:56 st_: good point 03:25:14 Perhaps it could just be a progressive ability? 03:25:14 Animate Skeleton costed 1, Animate Dead 4 03:25:26 Costs 1 mp at x piety 03:25:31 At xxx piety costs 2 or so. 03:26:16 kilobyte: It makes me sad every time the player tracer I fought so hard to add is ignored 03:26:35 * due tracesthe player, colours with crayons. 03:26:39 kilobyte: remove ice storm[4], and fix the self hit prompts 03:26:51 s/kilobyte/somebody/ 03:27:25 kilobyte, how would you rotate cones on a grid? You either lose the shape or the area, and "shape" is handwavey as heck to begin with 03:27:30 sorear: I'm talking about making the current tracer easier to use, and it being just one of subclasses of that function 03:30:32 OG17: it's a matter of having a sane way of rounding 03:31:23 OG17: but outside of squarelos, the shape can be approximated pretty well while keeping constant area 03:31:51 "ew squarelos". 03:32:15 due: <3 03:32:37 you'd basically cut out a cardboard triangle and hold it over the screen, I guess? 03:32:56 Well, that about sums up my opinion of it. Apparently I'm the privileged type of person who takes advantage of it without thinking and then objects to attempt sto fix it. 03:33:00 there's a question what to do with partially covered locations 03:33:02 * due the original LOS-pirivilege denying dude. 03:33:36 which is what I meant by "rounding" 03:34:19 I don't think that's really "sane" outside of looking pretty but this is just los again 03:34:47 naive rounding can cause large shifts of area by suddenly adding a whole row 03:35:08 I think if I'm LOS-privilege denying dude, OG17 is "whiny incessant Jiminy Cricket" dude. 03:35:12 :D 03:36:09 this can be easily visualized, that would make our discussion much easier 03:36:30 I'm finding it impossible to visualise, unfortunately. 03:36:37 too bad, I have some urgent work right now 03:36:41 Apart from this awesome red cone of fire enveloping a monster pack. 03:36:48 And "SCHWEET" 03:37:15 due: ah, you mean showing that in-game rather than showing the concept? 03:37:34 due: it can use the same scheme as the existing tracer 03:37:40 kilobyte: Oh, no, that makes sense. 03:37:45 That was just a 'oh hey that woulld be cool'. 03:37:53 I'm really in no state to be making sane decisions. 03:38:07 due: good, sanity is for the weak 03:38:26 My mind is suggesting that passive-aggressiveness is good (sorry, OG17, I am being a bit of a bastard towards you an dI know it) and comes up with things like 'WHEE MILKSHAKES'. 03:38:43 milkshakes are good 03:38:55 Yes but I can't drink milk. 03:39:27 they don't have soy or whatever? 03:39:29 Is there a reason *why* trac is so ugly? 03:39:47 OG17: Actually, I've got these lactose thingy tablets. 03:39:49 HMMM. 03:40:32 -!- gamefreak264 has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:45:34 ASSERT(is_drinkable(mikshakes)) failed 03:45:40 galehar: :( 03:50:59 -!- Zaba has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:02:03 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 04:17:12 YASD: cast passwall, but there's deep water on the other side. You drown... Should we try to prevent it? 04:18:43 -!- galehar has quit [] 04:19:51 https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2018 04:19:54 :P 04:27:49 you get a feeling of what is on the other side: air vs more wall. It would make sense you'd feel a mass of water or fire the same way. 04:30:38 "You feel... instant death! Bye." 04:32:29 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 04:39:27 -!- stabwound has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:42:32 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 04:57:19 Add exits to bailey_polearm_2 (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2870) by MarvintheParanoidAndroid 04:59:21 -!- paxed has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 05:03:13 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 05:21:22 -!- paxed has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:22:55 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 05:40:13 -!- paxed has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:41:37 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 06:02:43 Orb Chamber Vault (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2871) by MrPerson 06:05:25 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 06:11:33 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 06:23:57 -!- greensnark has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:24:03 -!- greensnark has joined ##crawl-dev 06:24:56 ... 06:25:03 that guy put roxanne in the orb chamber 06:25:25 yeah that's sort of weird 06:28:22 how many orb chambers are there right now? i remember seeing lots of different ones on mantis but only a couple ever ingame 06:30:35 there's 3, the other ones on mantis were ridiculous ones like silencing half the vault/tons of moths of wrath 06:31:14 oh yeah, heh 06:31:49 moths of wrath and more orb guardians than the original vault and the orb is off to one side too 06:32:40 there definitely shouldn't be gimmick versions of the final room 06:33:31 yeah, simple layout changes or whatever seems okay but not weird stuff like that 06:34:03 especially when they're all completely different in difficulty 06:35:01 pretty low chance of getting roxanne, seems alright 06:35:09 ROXAANNE 06:35:16 oh wait there's an F 06:35:34 pretty high chance of getting roxanne, seems strange 06:35:35 :p 06:36:10 yeah, and a chance of there being a multiple statues as well as the orb guardians 06:36:17 :/ 06:36:24 -a 06:36:49 finally, a felid nerf 06:36:54 haha 06:38:11 due what do you think of giving D:27 branch end vaults with the entrances to zot 06:39:17 Mu_: do it do it do it 06:39:19 hint: the answer is it'd be totally awesome and mu should do it 06:39:22 Mu_: Dunno. 06:39:26 heh 06:39:37 hmm 06:39:39 I'd asked dpeg. 06:39:47 s/ed//g 06:39:56 ok. 06:40:06 i'll mail him a vault 06:42:38 are there always four gateways to zot? 06:42:53 it appears like map_feature_at is almost unused 06:44:08 at least, in some of its forms 06:45:27 would be nice to remove the duplication between it and _vault_grid, at least 06:45:47 -!- Pacra has quit [Quit: Computer went to sleep] 06:56:18 Mu_: usually 3, but there can be any number 06:56:42 Mu_: any downwards hatch is converted to a gateway 06:56:56 ah i see 06:56:56 -!- Twinge has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:57:12 we may convert them to floor instead, ensuring always three gateways 06:57:49 I wonder what's the point in having three of them, since they are not linked to specific exits 06:57:52 -!- Twinge has joined ##crawl-dev 06:58:34 it's weird having many entries and many exits, but every entry putting you to only one of the exits, and every exit putting you to only one and the same entrance 07:00:27 yeah 07:00:34 my ideas for fixing that would be: a) linking entry 1 to exit 1, entry 2 to exit 2, entry 3 to exit 3; or b) having only one portal (but somehow multiple exits), as for all other regular branches 07:04:21 i guess it's more like the vestibule than a regular branch 07:06:42 one portal would be better 07:07:01 consistency with other branches 07:07:02 hmm.. I wonder.. 07:07:17 and flavour: The portal to Zot 07:07:23 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 07:08:42 is rune_subst actually used by anything? 07:09:15 I think most things implicitly KITEM/etc. 'O' these days. 07:10:39 oh wait, entry vaults of things use it as it is 07:10:59 * Zaba ponders 07:11:12 it'd probably be a good thing to kill it. And quite a lot of work. 07:12:36 ironically, it's not used for actual runes anymore 07:12:47 yep 07:12:55 -!- Pacra has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:20:11 -!- Twinge has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:21:30 -!- Twinge has joined ##crawl-dev 07:29:12 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 07:39:26 -!- Twinge has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:40:05 -!- Twinge has joined ##crawl-dev 07:40:11 -!- gamefreak264 has joined ##crawl-dev 08:00:56 what exactly is flood_find? 08:09:37 greensnark, ping? 08:13:05 kilobyte, do you think it'd be crazy to add KFEATs to all occurences of O? 08:13:14 kilobyte, it seems to be branch entry vaults, mostly, as far as i can see. 08:15:55 -!- gamefreak264 has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 08:16:26 -!- gamefreak264 has joined ##crawl-dev 08:17:32 there are 125 vaults that have something_entry in their tags, and that seems to be the only case for which rune_subst is handled 08:27:15 -!- Noom has joined ##crawl-dev 08:41:05 Zaba: I wonder if it's worth it. There is a cost: having the vaults themselves be a tad more complex. 08:41:31 but on the other hand, explicitely having the entry named could make things clearer 08:47:21 kilobyte, yep 08:47:46 kilobyte, it's just a KFEAT line in most cases, that's not a lot of complexity. It's more like boilerplate. 08:48:00 kilobyte, on the other hand, having it handled obscurily through rune_subst seems even worse.. 08:48:09 good point 08:48:44 One might give it a shot and see whether git diff --stat looks very bad in the end. 08:49:29 speaking of branches, I'd want to remove level_type and have stuff line Pan, Abyss, Lab or "portal" be considered branches code-wise 08:49:49 this would allow having multiple levels saved 08:49:51 sounds like a good idea to me.. but I didn't look at that code enough to know of all the implications 08:51:02 even worse, "portal" is something that lives entirely on the lua side, leading to problems with place names and ghosts 08:55:05 hmm 08:55:26 kilobyte, is there perhaps some way to put a KFEAT somewhere so it affects many vaults at once? 08:55:44 that'd help entries with O 08:57:06 I guess you want sed or perl 08:57:50 although even any editor plus searching for _entry would be good enough for 125 occurences 08:58:38 there's the benefit of having the number of spaces after KFEAT: match other stanzas in the vault definition :p 08:59:13 -!- gamefreak264 has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:00:30 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:03:07 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 09:03:28 argh. 09:07:01 g'morning 09:23:58 Wrong EV penalty for crystal plate mail? (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2872) by Lagus 09:36:44 kilobyte, damn, shoals seem to employ the rune_subst mechanism in an obscure manner. 09:37:51 kilobyte, namely, dgn-shoals.cc:313 places the rune huts but without runes using it 09:38:22 Zaba: Is that code actually used 09:38:51 greensnark, _shoals_furniture? It's called by dgn_build_shoals_level, as far as I can see 09:39:22 I don't think the rune_subst malarkey is used though 09:39:30 greensnark, it sets rune_subst to '0' 09:39:40 Yes, but it's not necessary to do that 09:39:47 So you can remove rune_subst safely 09:40:06 okay then 09:40:55 That comment is also obsolete, since the rune hut is not reused 09:41:08 greensnark, is there some way to place a KFEAT: O = enter_some_branch somewhere so it'd affect all relevant entry vaults at once? 09:41:14 but not anything else 09:41:20 Zaba: No 09:41:24 damn. 09:42:01 It would be nice if vaults were first class objects to Lua so you could postprocess them and do stuff like that 09:42:14 But they're not first-class Lua citizens yet 09:42:18 well.. 09:42:39 greensnark, also, how do I handle save compatibility of rune_subst? 09:42:54 What save compatibility, that doesn't affect saves at all 09:44:23 greensnark, whatever (un)marshall_vault_placement is used for doesn't need backwards compatibility? 09:44:48 It won't be affected by removing rune_subst 09:45:02 but rune_subst does get marshalled in them 09:45:09 Oh 09:45:11 Haha 09:45:27 Yeah, good point 09:45:32 I guess it's not saves but the precompiled level files? 09:45:34 or.. 09:45:43 No, it's also in saves 09:45:49 hm. 09:45:52 All vaults are saved in level files now 09:45:58 so just removing it is a no-go 09:46:11 You could put in a shim or use a major version change 09:46:30 * greensnark suggests a major version change. 09:46:58 hm 09:47:46 kilobyte: SWIG can wrap C++ objects for a bunch of dynamic languages, including Lua 09:47:57 They even support wrapping STL crap last I looked at the docs 09:49:33 greensnark, I guess doing it through a minor version change would require keeping the rune_subst field around? 09:49:43 since I wouldn't be conditionally compiling the code that refers to it 09:49:54 hrm. 09:49:56 Zaba: You can remove rune_subst and just read and discard the value from older saves 09:50:15 But changing the vault structure is just a touch tricky because it affects compiled maps and saves both 09:50:43 and.. how does one bump the major version? 09:51:37 tag-version.h 09:51:44 aside from actually adjusting TAG_MAJOR_VERSION 09:51:54 That's all you have to do 09:52:23 and then I can clear the #if TAG_MAJOR_VERSION == 31 bits and the tag_minor_version enum? 09:52:24 You can also remove the #ifdef crud for the current major version if you're the tidy type :) 09:52:33 Right 09:52:56 Clear the minor versions, remove the code that checked the various minor version tags 09:53:55 Zaba: You should also increment MAP_CACHE_VERSION in maps.h 09:55:01 wait.. for code that has #if TAG_MAJOR_VERSION == 31, do I remove it or do I bump it to the new version? 09:55:40 you remove it 09:56:07 don't we have to tell napkin if we update major version? 09:56:19 so he can manage current saves on CDO properly 09:56:44 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 09:57:02 no, you don't, galehar 09:57:21 you just need to tell me, if MAJOR_VERSION was forgotten to be raised ;) 09:57:56 it's all automatic, awesome :) 09:59:27 what about lines with #if TAG_MAJOR_VERSION != 31? 09:59:35 do I remove the #if and #endif and leave them be? 09:59:59 yes 10:01:03 imagine you're a preprocessor. and do what it would do :) 10:02:32 hm.. what do I do to spl-book.cc:326? 10:02:54 I don't understand the spirit of that TAG_MAJOR_VERSION check. 10:05:11 -!- TGWi has joined ##crawl-dev 10:05:23 I'd says change the test to 32 10:05:32 or ask kilobyte, he put that here 10:06:13 kilobyte, should spl-boot.cc:326 be bumped together with the major version? 10:38:34 greensnark, how ugly is it if I bump the version, remove all the crap from the old version, and remove rune_subst and code that used it in one commit? 10:39:26 Zaba: Sounds ok to me 10:41:03 okay 10:41:14 I'll test it now, or something 10:43:25 hum 10:43:53 greensnark, MONUSE_MAGIC_ITEMS is #if TAG_MAJOR_VERSION == 31, so it should go away, right? 10:44:01 greensnark, because its name in l_mons.cc is not in such an #if 10:45:17 Hm? 10:45:43 the _monuse_names array should get "magic_items" removed, too, right? 10:46:24 Oh, yes 10:46:28 ok 10:46:29 Isn't there a compile check there 10:46:35 Should add one if there isn't 10:47:10 there is 10:59:17 03zaba * r6c065b588f5c 10/crawl-ref/source/dungeon.cc: dungeon.cc: Remove some redundant reassignments. 10:59:20 03zaba * r52f0d44d129a 10/crawl-ref/source/dungeon.cc: dungeon.cc: Move glyph to feature translation into a separate function. 10:59:23 03zaba * reef8659988e7 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/portals/bazaar.des: Add KFEAT: O = enter_portal_vault to bazaars instead of relying on rune_subst. 10:59:25 03zaba * r4aa9c18a27b2 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/branches/ (10 files): Add explicit KFEAT: O = enter_branch, instead of relying on rune_subst. 10:59:38 03zaba * r3a1f44834a77 10/crawl-ref/source/ (16 files): Remove rune_subst; bump save major version, map cache version; clean up after version bump. 10:59:56 okay, I might have just broken a shitton of vault-related stuff and beyond 11:00:05 still, I think it's for the best! 11:00:30 because whatever the fixes for the now-broken stuff will be, they'll be better than what there has been before :P 11:01:09 greensnark, is there some place where one can put KFEAT and similar, that would affect *all* .des files, globally, unless, of course, they override it? 11:01:42 No 11:02:15 greensnark, damn. Something like that would be great---one would then be able to make the basic definitions (x = rock wall, etc.) in some .des file, rather than in C++. 11:04:18 greensnark, or would that be a bad idea? 11:04:36 -!- galehar has quit [Quit: Page closed] 11:05:29 Zaba: Not sure how much tangled C++ logic is involved in those mappings 11:05:35 But it sounds doable 11:05:56 greensnark, for the most basic ones, very little 11:06:02 I wouldn't use KFEAT itself but give direct access to the mapping table 11:06:09 hm 11:06:32 greensnark, the point is, those definitions wouldn't be really special 11:06:46 Well, would they allow all the kfeat features like weights and stuff 11:06:47 but I guess since global definitions aren't supported at the moment, they'd still have to be. 11:10:17 -!- monky has joined ##crawl-dev 11:12:48 greensnark, I have this nagging feeling that any kind of an improvement in the dungeon generator would require dramatic changes in what levels it builds. Simply because all this logic that picks a layout cannot be sanely refactored. 11:13:14 or well, maybe not changes in layouts themselves, but in their chances of being picked, surely. 11:13:27 Yeah, layout selection should be cleaned up 11:13:44 Easiest thing to do is just run stats and see the distribution of various layouts in different branches 11:13:45 right now, it seems to be a mess of functions that *somehow* build a layout, and functions that *somehow* tweak an already built layout 11:13:54 but there is no clear separation between the two 11:13:54 And then take that distribution out as a table 11:14:15 Well, spend enough time hacking on it and you'll know what to clean up :) 11:14:22 nothing gives a clear idea of what functions can be considered layout functions and what cannot be. They have different interfaces, and are called from different places, etc. 11:15:02 for example, what is so special about the _plan_\d functions that they're organized like that? 11:17:22 greensnark, why is _plan_6's "back door" to abyss not implemented in lua? Can it be? 11:17:56 Most of the plan_foo are very old code 11:18:10 So no point in asking why they're the way they are :) 11:22:21 uhm, why would you break save compat for something that can be done trivially? 11:23:10 kilobyte, because it seemed like a good idea at that time. 11:24:28 major version bumps are disruptive, especially that all current games in progress on CDO will have to be purged if we are to add CP437/Unicode compatibility which I wanted to add one of these days 11:24:42 Original orb chamber (with crystal pillars) does not properly block apportation from outside (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2873) by MrMisterMonkey 11:24:42 since CDO can't update old major versions 11:24:56 just stable and current 11:25:23 purging major 30 would be easy since we had been at 31 for a long time 11:25:38 kilobyte, I'll be more careful next time I get to do something like that. 11:26:34 I wasn't aware of those implications. 11:26:50 I guess I should be paying more attention to the development, especially at times when I suddenly return to it. 11:27:17 hrm, it's a single commit rather than change + cleanup :( 11:28:01 it's ok... I think I'll revert most of it and do just the rune_subst thingy 11:28:31 since there's an actual reason to avoid bumping major tags other than just blocking current games from upgrades 11:30:28 I guess (most of the) rune_subst changes are pretty much isolated in dungeon.{cc,h}, abyss.cc, l_dgn.cc, dgn-shoals.cc 11:30:38 well and tags.cc, but that's the one where it's all intertwined 11:30:48 also maps.h is related 11:32:36 thanks, I wondered about the MAP_CACHE thingy 11:33:00 kilobyte, rune_subst is saved in the map cache, so if it's removed, the cache version needs a bump 11:33:05 or so I understand it 11:34:36 well, greensnark told me to bump the cache version :P 11:35:19 I'm not exactly familiar with that code, so I just done what I've been told :P 11:35:57 Map cache has to be updated if map save format changes, yes 11:36:35 Also kilobyte is very nice to players of trunk versions, but I don't think the occasional major version bump is harmful 11:36:39 -!- Elyzah has joined ##crawl-dev 11:36:59 kilobyte, wouldn't it be messy to partially revert that stuff now, anyway? 11:37:14 Preserving save compat in trunk is wasted effort IMAO :) 11:38:13 kilobyte, I mean, I know that it's a trivial case and I could've handled it much easier, but now that I've done it, it's on master, nobody expects much stability in saves anyway... 11:38:35 people who want their games to last should perhaps play something with 'stable' or 'release' in its name ;P 11:40:09 -!- Elyzah has left ##crawl-dev 11:40:16 but well, I don't know, I'm no expert. Just wondering how reasonable it is to mess around this one issue any further. 11:40:26 greensnark: it's not just that -- I want to do something that would require removal of every single save without that change 11:40:48 Oh, the unicode change? 11:41:17 actually, something that would let DGL run both old and new versions 11:42:34 I wanted to have Crawl just --print-charset to query the config file (or perhaps even parse that ourselves), but that would require adding a helper process between Crawl and DGL if there's a conversion needed, and Napkin told me that would be a bad idea 11:43:34 so I'll add a shim into Crawl itself, so it can use the system locale even with CHARSET_IBM 11:43:45 (and, due to a bug in Putty, CHARSET_DEC) 11:44:49 Blink will not drop you into dangerous clouds (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2874) by Eronarn 11:48:15 uh? 11:48:21 what's the bug here? 11:50:12 well there are no feature requests anymore so 11:50:28 should still close 11:51:04 kilobyte: as listed there, it's a misfeature; it's not really a feature request because it's seeking to revert something originally filed as a bug 11:51:04 2) has some merit 11:52:12 03kilobyte * rd509b89e63a4 10/crawl-ref/source/ (10 files): Revert bump of the major save version. 11:52:14 03kilobyte * rd547018f7ce6 10/crawl-ref/source/ (tag-version.h tags.cc): Handle removal of the rune_subst field from saves. 11:52:18 03kilobyte * rae751b7158b8 10/crawl-ref/source/religion.cc: Detect portals on level when joining Ashenzari. 11:57:03 not really, you can do the same things with summons a lot easier than a level 5 conjurations 11:59:03 the worst I can see is making cloudy attacks near harmless for anyone with blink 11:59:12 but that's consistent with being unable to blink into monsters 11:59:36 I like the mechanic, but the justification is a bit weak 12:00:58 Mu_: unless you're using sputterflies you're only getting one tile at a time filled with summons vs. 9 or 10 for poisonous cloud 12:03:14 or mammals, scorpions, horde, horrible things, etc. mammals and butterflies are both only level 1 too so they're easier and you can do them a lot more than poisonous clouds. 12:04:15 i usually butterfly spam when i need to blink over zot traps in crypt/tomb whatever 12:05:04 so making me blink into clouds wouldn't stop be controlling blinks when i need to, might kill me randomly early on though 12:07:28 03dolorous * r66b28740ecc9 10/crawl-ref/source/l_mons.cc: Add missing TAG_MAJOR_VERSION define for _monuse_names[]. 12:08:21 butterflies is pretty broken, i don't think it's wise to balance in comparison to it 12:08:27 it should be nerfed but no one would ever go for it so 12:09:02 since your abuse works only in corridors, you can go behind a corner just as well 12:09:43 kilobyte: you can use it in a lot more places than just next to a corner 12:10:19 if you need to cast several clouds, it's so much simpler to just walk there 12:11:02 i think you're underestimating how quickly you can fill up an area with cloud spells 12:11:09 especially if there are monsters on screen, which you also won't blink into 12:12:10 poisonous cloud would have saved my first half-successful cene[xom] in crypt (fill the gaps between skeletal warriors so I can blink safely) 12:12:19 there's what, 364(?) squares in LOS? So filling them by 9 with a time isn't really feasible outside of very closed layouts. 12:12:20 summons wouldn't have sufficed 12:14:18 kilobyte: good thing that the majority of the layouts in the game are pretty closed, huh 12:14:40 when are there *ever* 364 squares in LOS outside of totally open levels? 12:15:24 i don't think it's a big enough concern to justify dumping people in cloud effects 12:15:50 Mu_: why does that need to be 'justified' 12:16:01 it might kill them? 12:16:09 blinking into monsters might kill them 12:16:15 controll your blinks if you don't want to die 12:16:17 -l 12:16:23 yeah, seriously 12:16:25 ok let's make people blink into water and lava then too 12:16:36 Mu_: shallow water, sure 12:16:40 remove water and lava 12:16:56 there is exactly one layout that you can fill with a single casting, and it's a non-forking corridor 12:16:59 shallow water wont kill you 12:17:21 and the thing about lava is consistent with clouds 12:17:26 no it's not 12:17:48 lava is an instant kill effect, clouds deal damage 12:17:51 the two are totally different 12:18:10 if ther were a monster where you died if you stepped next to it, then blink absolutely shouldn't land you next to a monster like that 12:18:39 but 'you might take damage if you blink to this spot': that's true of any spot next to any monster that can damage you, or in LOS of any ranged monster, or etc. 12:19:54 kilobyte, sorry for the mess I've made... and thank you for dealing with it. 12:20:49 Zaba: no problem, I did not announce I have a reason to avoid breaking save compat 12:20:52 my fault 12:21:07 -!- Twilight13 has joined ##crawl-dev 12:21:07 also kilobyte you don't need to totally fill it, especially since blink is a chance (so if you have 20 tiles in los further away, 10 closer, you can narrow it down to 1:20 instead of 10:20) 12:27:23 it works both ways, a player spamming clouds could accidentally cut off useful blink destinations 12:29:06 yes, i agree, this is another reason preventing blinking into clouds is a bad idea 12:32:57 if more things had dispersal ammo it might be an amusing cloud nerf 12:33:24 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 12:35:19 speaking of cloud nerfs, evap vs. meph 12:35:40 the former is just so grossly OP for a L2 spell even considering the ammo requirement 12:36:48 number of clouds should depend on power 12:37:50 TGWi: I agree 12:37:50 dpeg: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 12:37:55 !messages 12:37:56 (1/1) due said (16h 1m 43s ago): I wanted to poke you about the idea of registering DCSS as a group on Freenode. 12:38:14 !tell due Sounds good, only I don't really understand what it means. :) 12:38:15 dpeg: OK, I'll let due know. 12:38:49 why does evap sometimes give me throwing skill btw?? 12:38:58 Mu_: it used to use throwing to hit things 12:38:58 because it trains throwing 12:39:05 i don't think it can miss any more though 12:39:33 pretty funny 12:39:53 TGWi: i think number of clouds is a good first step, but i might also reduce the range 12:40:08 potions are awkward throwables normally whereas evap is... range 6? 12:40:32 you can throw awkwardly as far as you want 12:40:53 no? awkwardly is a max of one tile unless something changed 12:41:05 not saying evap should be 1 tile, but 1=>6 is pretty different 12:41:15 nah i throw all kinds of junk to pop ballistos, you can throw pretty far 12:41:29 er spores 12:41:31 Mu_: I am not sure that's actually good... one square might be better. 12:41:38 oh wait it's based on weight or something isn't it 12:41:43 no 12:41:51 pretty sure you're just incorrect 12:41:54 i know books and corpses and stuff you can only throw one tile 12:42:00 no 12:42:33 sigh now i have to go try it out 12:42:42 yeah corpses are harder to throw 12:42:45 you don't; just know that you're wrong 12:42:46 based on strength 12:43:16 Eronarn: books can be thrown further... to my dismay. 12:44:05 okay i guess it's just corpses then, which is weird? 12:44:36 since i can't throw a giant bat corpse more than 1 :P 12:44:42 Eronarn: yes, seems like it 12:44:51 joey mentioned corpse chucking here https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:rc#allow_large_races_to_throw_corpses_and_other_heavy_items 12:45:15 Mu_: this is a good idea, imo 12:45:27 i just threw a book, and it went 3 only 12:45:57 and 12:45:57 gess t 12:46:07 and i guess potions go out to six 12:46:19 so TGWi is wrong :P 12:46:34 !learn add tgw Wrong about awkwardly throwing. Wrong for America. 12:46:35 tgw[6/6]: Wrong about awkwardly throwing. Wrong for America. 12:46:43 (1:41:53 PM) Eronarn: i know books and corpses and stuff you can only throw one tile 12:46:48 !learn del tgw[6] 12:46:48 Deleted tgw[6/6]: Wrong about awkwardly throwing. Wrong for America. 12:47:54 TGWi: < TGWi> you can throw awkwardly as far as you want 12:48:21 Guys, you can stop this. It's silly! 12:49:00 dpeg, what do you think of having a small 'brand end' vault on D:27, containing the entrance to zot? 12:49:05 branch 12:49:36 i wonder about making throwing distance for potions based off of strength, that could be interesting 12:49:52 Mu_: possibly 12:49:56 We need a theme... 12:50:05 And there are some D:27 vaults already. 12:50:18 huh, i wasn't aware of that 12:51:11 I had this idea of making levels (randomly) smaller in D, the deeper you get. 12:51:17 the other option would be to make evaporate different from meph in this way: it is a 'grenade', which evaporates a turn or few later 12:51:26 <3 any idea that makes D:27 feel more special. 12:51:33 Hi Enne! 12:51:36 Howdy. :) 12:51:39 Oklobs! 12:51:51 Oklobs are dime a dozen. Not having them would feel special! 12:52:14 * dpeg hands Enne a bouquet of oklobs. 12:52:25 "Acid! My favorite!" 12:52:33 enne: single portal to zot in d:27 center, with zot coloured walls. tendrils of zotcolour branch outward, permeating the rest of the level with veins of strangely glowing royal purple. 12:52:35 :) 12:53:36 dpeg: oh, I worked on an idea for a new new stalker book. would require new spells, but some of them were favorably received. 12:55:07 Eronarn: sounds good! 12:56:39 both versions have a spell like evaporate conceptually, but silent/not using clouds, and tmut/ice; one is earth/nec as well as ice/tmut, while the other is air 12:57:43 the contentious additions seemed to be: a non-nec alternative to fulsome distillation; a spell to create a temporary wall of ice; a spell that enhances stabbing in some way 12:58:26 the other stuff didn't get much dislike during brainstorming, which is a good start 12:58:29 I still don't understand the reason to have a gimpy ice version of fulsome; do you want to play stalkers of zin or something? 12:59:35 Yes, why afraid of the Nec? 13:00:36 monky: a) different schools, for book composition reasons b) i would like at least one version of one of the transmuting classes to not have to abandon such a core spell upon conversion 13:00:36 hm. 13:01:11 Eronarn: but otherwise it's near strictly worse? If I recall correctly, it extracts from attack instead of corpse type 13:01:13 I have trouble finding code paths that leave to map_feature_at. 13:01:15 err, lead. 13:01:19 if EE were better or more transmut-y, that would fill the niche fine, but it's really not adequate imo 13:02:01 monky: leaves the corpse behind... it's different, but it's not strictly worse 13:02:47 presumably marking the corpse so you can't repeatedly extract from it? 13:03:04 yes (might have it give multiple potions from bigger creatures though) 13:03:27 since the flavor is extracting venom, rather than brewing the corpse down into a potion of its essence 13:05:01 03zaba * ra25917b9f483 10/crawl-ref/docs/develop/levels/syntax.txt: Document the removal of the 'O' symbol from .des syntax. 13:05:02 03zaba * rc2a7a7b30bfe 10/crawl-ref/docs/develop/levels/introduction.txt: Fix the level design example by adding an explicit KFEAT for O. 13:05:04 03zaba * r3cbdf46a2bb8 10/crawl-ref/source/dungeon.cc: dungeon.cc: Replace a rather pointless switch statement with an if. 13:05:29 03zaba * r3324580ba5be 10/crawl-ref/source/dungeon.cc: dungeon.cc: Remove an obsolete comment. 13:05:40 though it may be better to make such a spell poison/tmut rather than ice - it's definitely not finalized right now 13:06:35 the issue being that it would have zero synergy with existing poison spells, which magic up poison into existence 13:09:25 ignite poison affects existing poisons too 13:09:39 or is that tmut fire :P 13:10:11 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 13:10:12 yeah tmut fire, oh well 13:10:46 -!- st_ has quit [] 13:11:07 Mu_: that is a spell that i would like to be two out of tmut, fire, pois 13:11:31 er, your best two, that is 13:12:40 gotta run to catch a train 13:12:41 later! 13:13:01 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: Insist, infest, infiltrate] 13:13:44 -!- Keskitalo has joined ##crawl-dev 13:13:45 this of course would be where monky suggests a spell to coat your weapon with a potion... :P 13:13:52 Good evening! 13:16:50 hmm, i wonder if that'd actually work as the stab-spell 13:17:50 tmut/pois extract venom; tmut/ice freeze spell; tmut/pois spell that replaces a stab would be a pretty decent core of a book 13:18:29 Eronarn: it was an idea not a full proposal 13:18:32 :( 13:19:50 monky: i think it actually has some promise if it isn't just the same thing as poisonbrand 13:20:13 it's as much the same thing as poisonbrand as evap is meph 13:20:35 evap and meph are too similar right now :P 13:20:41 Eronarn: tmut/ice freeze spell = exact copy of EH but in different schools because you say so? 13:20:49 TGWi: out 13:21:25 maybe you should make an ice/tmut version of distillation oh wait 13:24:12 I also think weaponcoating would be more useful in practice with confusion potions (might be too similar to confusing touch though) 13:26:35 monky: i think making it a stab effect is interesting: consumes ammo so you don't want to use it on every stab (which would be bad), but noticeable benefit against stabbable enemies you might not one-hit-kill 13:27:14 "stabble enemies you might not one-hit-kill" so barely anything? 13:28:24 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 13:28:33 monky: it's pretty annoying when you, say, fail to kill a death yak 13:28:40 I guess 13:28:42 I guess it would help with training stabbing, then on the occasional high-hp enemy, then on hellpan lords 13:29:07 yeah it doesn't need to be useful throughout the whole game really 13:29:40 making it do poison that ignores some degree of rPois might be interesting 13:29:42 like poison arrow 13:32:13 -!- Amonchakad has joined ##crawl-dev 13:39:21 you could make it work guaranteed on distracted enemies 13:40:16 or, as ##crawl said, enslave instead of kill 13:40:19 yeah, that's definitely something i was considering 13:40:41 -!- blabber has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:40:41 -!- Icelos has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 13:40:43 i think always allowing shortblade stabs on distraction would be broken though 13:40:50 so it'd have to be less damage than that 13:41:39 there's not much you can do instead of a blue stab because there's not much that's better than just killing the enemy 13:42:20 TGWi: well, blue stabs can still fail, but yeah 13:42:36 maybe if you're playing the worst stabber ever 13:45:15 the enslave ability idea is cool, but i'm unconvinced that it's stalker-y 13:45:26 unless it were maybe a 'delayed death channel' 13:46:19 if you kill them with this next stab, you reap their soul, and it hangs around until you decide to summon it (so that you don't stab one thing and then have an ally hanging around immediately) 13:47:34 stealthdeathknight would definitely be a workable stalker niche imo 14:13:05 -!- paxed has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:14:25 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 14:21:46 -!- Pseudonut has joined ##crawl-dev 14:41:25 -!- Keskitalo has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:42:06 -!- MarvinPA has quit [] 14:42:23 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 14:44:29 -!- Pseudonut has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:05:07 -!- blackpenguin has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:07:43 -!- Amonchakad has quit [Quit: When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net] 15:22:22 -!- jld has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:22:28 -!- jld has joined ##crawl-dev 15:25:29 ooh, i think i found a way to do cones that won't be awful 15:27:25 sangband has had cone spells forever and they've been awesome 15:27:31 or at least cone dragon breath 15:28:35 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:29:31 too angbandish 15:31:31 sorear: yeah cones are great, just the interface and the squares that are hit to think of 15:39:08 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 15:47:33 -!- blackpenguin has joined ##crawl-dev 15:50:00 -!- upsy has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:50:09 -!- Elyzah has joined ##crawl-dev 15:51:21 -!- Elyzah has left ##crawl-dev 15:55:33 -!- OG17 has quit [Quit: OG17] 16:18:32 -!- Noom has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:24:02 -!- galehar has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.12/20101026210630]] 16:24:39 -!- OG17 has joined ##crawl-dev 16:50:48 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 16:56:40 Text on http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/tracker [^] needs revision (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2875) by djnrempel 17:09:12 -!- syllogism has quit [] 17:17:51 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:24:02 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 18:16:03 -!- pointless_ has joined ##crawl-dev 18:35:34 -!- pointless_ has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.12/20101026210630]] 19:44:25 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:54:54 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 20:04:23 -!- gamefreak264 has joined ##crawl-dev 20:11:38 -!- Mu_ has quit [Quit: Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place.] 20:20:45 -!- gamefreak264 has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:18:50 -!- herself has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:35:38 -!- herself has joined ##crawl-dev 22:47:35 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:07:22 -!- Twinge_ has joined ##crawl-dev 23:09:14 -!- Twinge has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:33:26 -!- Twinge_ has quit []