00:07:38 -!- TGWi has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:20:33 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:28:46 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 00:47:25 due: 00:47:32 due: make a new names 00:48:13 there's no persistant login database; you'll get due back after the next reboot 00:48:17 ah. 00:48:18 I suppose you could ping jsn- 00:48:23 no, that'scool 00:48:30 i am not that bothered at theminute 00:58:17 -!- Textmode has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:03:56 -!- upsy has joined ##crawl-dev 01:08:07 -!- gamefreak264 has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:08:28 -!- gamefreak264 has joined ##crawl-dev 01:32:20 -!- paxed has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:36:41 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 01:42:50 Long Blades to Start, Gladiator Change, Ban 2 Felid Combos (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2867) by RangerC 01:43:55 Who is RangerC? 01:43:59 And what IRC convo did I miss? 01:44:57 no idea 01:57:50 -!- paxed has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:59:27 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 02:23:37 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 02:55:24 so blink apparently will not land you into damaging clouds 02:55:45 this should probably be changed because it's a tremendous misfeature given the way cloud-generating spells work 02:56:16 blink doesn't care if it lands you into the middle of a pack of enemies, it shouldn't care if it lands you into a damaging cloud 02:58:20 -!- Pacra has quit [Quit: Computer went to sleep] 03:12:10 -!- gamefreak264 has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:12:37 -!- gamefreak264 has joined ##crawl-dev 03:16:09 Eronarn: I suspect this may be *ancient* 03:16:22 like, predating most of the current cloud rules 03:16:46 because it wouldn't be fun to blink into lava 03:16:59 IIRC at one time clouds prevented learning features 03:31:27 this is trivial to fix 03:38:09 yes, but it is a pretty big functionality change, so i didn't want to just go make a patch 03:38:25 i'd hope nobody would be opposed to making said change but you never know 03:44:42 -!- Pseudonut has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:49:05 well, it seems a good idea to me. 03:56:05 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 04:08:22 -!- galehar has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:23:56 -!- gamefreak264 has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:29:50 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 04:33:41 -!- paxed has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:37:25 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 04:40:53 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 04:42:44 Blink not dropping the player into damaging clouds was a relatively recent change 04:42:54 I think after CatEater's labyrinth death :P 04:44:02 yeah, and I can't see what's wrong with it 04:46:44 That's ambiguous: do you mean you don't see anything wrong with the labyrinth death or that you don't see anything wrong with blink avoiding damaging clouds 04:47:06 I don't see anything wrong with blink avoiding damaging clouds. 04:47:19 Aha, here's evidence that kilobyte was due all this time :) 04:47:29 Ye have been unmasked 04:47:34 Ye scurvy knave 04:48:04 dammit, now I'll need to have you eliminated, and to be more careful in the future 04:48:46 blink not landing on clouds has some weird exploitation causes 04:48:59 mainly high ac+maxed resists, storm yourself and blink away! 04:49:49 more realistically, without rpois, cast poisonous cloud on self in corridor (it flood fills), blink away 04:49:59 wait, firestorming yourself to get a worse version of semi-controlled blink is suddenly an exploit? 04:50:34 poison cloud is somewhat more realistic, but not that much 04:51:09 well when you reach the point ice storm on yourself does something like 10 damage :D 04:51:58 uhm, wasn't it predominantly irresistible? 04:52:34 ac works 04:52:41 on storms 04:52:49 andd resists have effect on a % 04:52:52 portion 04:54:10 ice storm is 75% unresistible, so even rC+++ reduces the damage to just 80% of max 04:55:29 if you can cast ice storm in real heavy armour, you're on your tenth Zig 04:55:43 and AC won't reduce 80 after resists to 10 04:58:40 -!- paxed has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:00:08 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 05:00:13 that fails when you start trying it with semicontrolled blinks though 05:00:28 (semicontrolled blinks should degrade to random instead of failing and doing nothing and killing you) 05:06:06 is it intentional that ash gives you portal detection at 0 piety? 05:07:03 if so, it should be applied when you join, if there's a portal on your current floor (i just got a vision of a gate by going upstairs then downstairs again after joining) 05:08:57 I'd say you should get that only at a certain piety threshold, but indeed, it should be applied to the level at that moment. 05:09:21 yeah 05:11:38 -!- Henzell has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:14:59 -!- Henzell has joined ##crawl-dev 05:34:47 -!- monky has quit [Quit: hello] 05:43:31 -!- paxed has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:45:18 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 06:04:56 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 06:07:01 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 06:25:57 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 06:25:57 cheers 06:36:34 -!- gamefreak264 has joined ##crawl-dev 07:17:13 -!- gamefreak264 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:28:56 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 07:32:40 -!- paxed has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:34:28 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 08:36:24 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 08:43:03 cheersHi 08:43:06 oops 09:14:41 -!- Mu_DeluxeEdition has joined ##crawl-dev 09:14:55 -!- Mu_ has quit [Disconnected by services] 09:14:59 -!- Mu_DeluxeEdition is now known as Mu_ 09:21:24 -!- paxed has quit [*.net *.split] 09:21:24 -!- jld has quit [*.net *.split] 09:22:03 -!- galehar has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:24:31 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 09:24:31 -!- jld has joined ##crawl-dev 10:01:33 -!- TGWi has joined ##crawl-dev 10:17:31 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 10:24:11 03galehar * r97c717292019 10/crawl-ref/source/ (menu.cc menu.h): Fix * in drop menu and , in pickup menu. 10:24:14 03galehar * ra97cc2144ee4 10/crawl-ref/source/travel.cc: Limit to LOS when searching for interesting features. 10:24:15 03galehar * r10597dbab61e 10/crawl-ref/source/ (enum.h fight.cc mon-info.cc mon-info.h monster.cc): Add proper monster fake enchantment for helpless message 10:29:16 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 10:36:55 galehar: thank you! 10:37:02 :) 10:41:03 galehar: did you see the new help screen? Will it get the point across? 10:42:51 I saw the commit message, but didn't check out in game 10:42:53 let me 10:43:52 had to condense the item categories a bit 10:44:50 seems fine 10:44:55 cool 10:45:08 galehar: ah, one thing occurred to me when testing 10:45:15 maybe the inventory should have a different help than the pickup and drop menus since the commands are different 10:45:31 galehar: can we make it so that the cursor is (invisibly) placed at the top item when calling drop or pickup? 10:45:45 That way you can use . and ' right away. This can be useful for picking up. 10:46:05 probably 10:46:07 galehar: inventory has the same help? Didn't realise that. 10:46:09 I'll look into it 10:46:12 thanks 10:46:14 yes it does 10:46:56 I will try to come up with a dedicated help screen. 10:59:01 -!- eith has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:59:19 -!- galehar has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.12/20101026210630]] 11:29:39 03dolorous * rf77de5596bd8 10/crawl-ref/source/status.cc: Add formatting fix. 11:33:08 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 11:54:05 Hey, dolorous has replied. 11:54:08 !seen Eronarn 11:54:09 I last saw Eronarn at Wed Nov 24 10:02:38 2010 UTC (7h 51m 30s ago) saying oh well, bed, i hate carwl on ##crawl. 11:59:50 can't imprison just be tod other? no reason it needs to use the recite effects 12:06:22 TGWi: yes, sure 12:06:31 I really like imprison for the tactical possibilities. 12:07:01 Adding recite effects was just to make it a gamble: you can put away a monster for a short duration, but it might be a bit more dangerous afterwards. 12:10:24 -!- Icelos has joined ##crawl-dev 12:11:59 Hello, I just got spawned in a corridor of lava :O 12:12:41 search for a door 12:12:44 in the crawl.develz.org server 12:12:55 no i can't move. Look ! 12:13:26 yeah, there's a door 12:13:41 Icelos: I cannot watch you, your screen is too big :( 12:13:55 Icelos: found a door? 12:14:02 yep 12:14:03 sorry 12:14:06 :( 12:14:07 no prolem 12:14:16 that entry vault (and the others that trap you) should be fixed 12:15:01 but if theres a door, i don't see why ;) 12:15:13 it 12:15:21 's pointless to make the player spend their first turn resting 12:15:25 iirc there's one entry vault with insane amount of plants 12:15:33 -!- Noom has joined ##crawl-dev 12:15:38 it's a deadend if you don't rip them unless you dive to d2 12:15:56 not blinking into clouds is a real issue: for example, DD are practically immune to a few turns of poison clouds 12:15:58 -!- monky has joined ##crawl-dev 12:16:15 and you get a LOT of poison cloud inside a corridor 12:16:33 i see 12:16:40 enough to make yourself able to semicontrolled blink even in no-telecontrol areas of the game 12:19:28 felirx: I fixed the water/ice vault where you had to hack through many plants... now there's at most one plant in the way, the rest are fungi. 12:19:48 Eronarn: how to fix it? 12:20:05 TGWi: it is not pointless... it teaches players about searching. 12:20:38 obviously not 12:20:42 teaches as in they get frustrated and look it up? 12:20:44 if people are confused by it 12:21:07 the tutorial teaches people about searching 12:21:14 well, the threshold to look things up is high for people who are used to asking on irc 12:21:15 the command list teaches people about searching 12:21:38 I would have thought the Temple entry with the glass walls would also teach players 12:21:53 I certainly wouldn't 12:26:31 Eronarn: you'd think that a vertical line of #'s is hard to access visually? (Question not rhetorical.) 12:35:04 dpeg: yes; it has to be longer to convey the same amount of information, and we (english speakers at least) read left to right 12:35:42 dpeg: as to how to fix the cloud thing: just permit blinking into dangerous clouds and if someone would get a 'move into cloud' prompt for a cloud on screen, prompt 'really blink with dangerous clouds around?' 12:36:17 this is much better than the alternative of people getting semicontrolled, glow-less blink on -telecontrol levels just by hiding in corridors and casting smite-targeted spells 12:36:39 03dolorous * ra524527856a2 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-data.h: Mark sky beasts as not having skeletons. 12:37:39 Eronarn: it would be 23 glyphs in either direction 12:37:49 And I am used to vertical bars from arcade games. 12:38:15 unrelated, but it would be nice if the player's @ were highlighted in their hp colour 12:38:28 dpeg: i mean: glyphs are taller than they are wide, so to show the same number of gradations, you need a longer line even if it is the same # of glyphs 12:38:33 TGWi: not sure if that is universally good... 12:38:41 Eronarn: sure 12:39:14 this will make it harder to compare what % you're at at a glance 12:39:27 yes 12:39:27 Eronarn: in unicode you could use full boxes and half-full boxes for twice the increments 12:40:05 the human eye has a very, very small focal range unfortunately; so the existing bars are pretty good but if they were any longer it would start to get hard to read them 12:40:17 Eronarn: I think you're right 12:40:40 but still, those shootemup games used to have power bars of size the whole screen 12:40:52 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 12:41:15 true, but they aren't always paragons of design ;) 12:41:48 i do think it would be nice to have a 'status box' somewhere on screen 12:41:53 (HP bars, status lights) 12:42:03 hard to make that work though 12:42:15 dpeg: on the water/ice vault, how many fungi does the player have to hack through, in the worst case? I recall playing a mummy necromancer once (no good way to harm fungi), and it took about 900 turns of mashing against fungi to get out 12:42:24 hp bars could be moved to the bottom 12:42:33 but that might be weird 12:42:35 Eronarn: sometimes I have the opportunity to watch over the shoulder of a friend playing some MMORPG... I then always wonder what those designers have been up to. The screen is filled with little chits. 12:42:53 TGWi: yeah, HP number and bar should be adjacent, preferably on the same line 12:43:02 Eronarn: I mean the whole lone 12:43:03 line* 12:43:16 unfortunately, we have columns to spend, but not lines 12:43:28 this is not taking extra lines :| 12:43:49 i liked the one that i did that was all the stats on one column, HP bars and lights in the other column, with monster list showing up below it 12:44:01 TGWi: there's the playing area and the message area. Where do you want to put the bars? 12:44:04 but, that one would really work best if crawl's sidebar were on the left side 12:44:11 monky: search for "Song" in the entry des files. 12:46:02 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:47:27 Eronarn: http://pastebin.ca/2001201 12:47:44 it's like yours but less weird 12:48:06 looks pretty weird to me 12:48:24 not as weird as having half of the information pane blank :P 12:48:37 oh right that 12:48:44 yeah that was really weird 12:49:52 I am not sure which is better: putting HP/MP/bars in the top right corner (easy to find) or next to status lights (where eye focus will often go). 12:50:19 it's pretty easy to find anywhere as long as it has the huge colorful bar next to it 12:50:58 probably, yes 12:51:18 We got those bars by Paul Dubois, who's a professional game developer, btw. 12:51:31 He didn't even ask much, just told us we need them, and then coded them :) 12:51:39 by -> from 12:51:49 lol 12:53:51 freeforums asks for your zip code? really? 12:55:26 TGWi: i think the text in that one is pretty cluttered but it's otherwise good 12:56:00 though i'd move the status lights right 12:56:10 so that it's effectively two-col; one col for status lights, one for monster list 12:56:30 looks weird to have the status effects not completely lined up with the bars 12:56:33 I'd rather one less line for the monster list and non-cluttered than cluttering it to cram it all in 12:57:04 tgwi: there are so many things wrong with a TSO worshipper with lichform and DDoor in effect simultaneously ;) 12:57:10 it would look a lot nicer with some clever colouration 12:57:16 elliptic: :P 12:57:33 what about a mottled draconian that is a merfolkian porcupine? 12:57:41 that's a good point too 12:57:45 also butterflies showing up on the monster list 12:58:19 and exploding darts in pandemonium 12:59:58 -!- elliptic has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:00:50 TGWi: here's how i'd change that one: http://pastebin.ca/2001213 13:00:56 I think it terms of having the statuses near the bars doy has the best idea 13:01:08 what did doy say? 13:01:15 or maybe have the break after Qv instead 13:01:17 look in the mantis issue 13:01:20 but it definitely needs a linebreak 13:01:37 the yellow, bold text will make the top not need one because it will have a virtual one from that ending 13:01:44 but the bottom has nothing similar 13:02:19 I don't like putting the monster list in the middle 13:02:41 I don't like that linebreak 13:02:47 in Eronarn's 13:03:37 how wide does the monster list get? 13:03:45 it would look better with more of them but it would then eat into the monster list 13:03:48 mottled draconian scorcher? 13:04:17 ttttt 10 alligator snapping turtle simulacra 13:04:21 alligator snapping tur-- 13:04:21 or however many "t" it shows 13:04:29 like so: http://pastebin.ca/2001217 13:04:49 Eronarn: ew, too many line breaks 13:05:01 TGWi: no 13:05:02 such 13:05:02 it looks imbalanced 13:05:03 thing 13:05:20 monky: it'll look less so with colours; it is going to look very cluttered in the one with no linebreaks 13:05:49 the weapon and quivered item should just be one colour btw 13:06:00 it shouldn't take on the weapon's floor colour 13:06:06 so that could help 13:06:19 disagree 13:06:24 weapon colouring is cute 13:06:37 thing i would like to see though: 13:06:38 interface is not for cuteness 13:06:44 Wp: a) my primary weapon 13:06:49 b) my secondary weapon 13:06:57 for ' 13:07:22 it's far more relevant than the quiver on most of my characters 13:07:44 (the b) should be indented a bit more than that, i didn't count spaces) 13:08:07 There is a proposal about better weapon colouring somewhere... 13:08:36 It is a shame space is so scarce... 13:09:22 lightgrey for all weapons, lightred for things that are obviously not your primary weapon (anything you would be prompted to attack with), and colour brands appropriately, imo 13:09:23 dpeg: reduce LOS to 4 for everyone, shrink viewport 13:09:44 TGWi: but my purple demon tridentsss :( 13:10:23 reduce LOS to 1. blindfoldcrawl 13:10:43 giganto-terms as standard 13:10:45 FR: a way to play crawl with zen-conduct 13:10:47 TGWi: yes, brands should determine colours 13:11:26 dpeg: I mean just the colour of the brand name 13:12:00 so you would have "Wp: +2, +3 dagger (flame)" and the "(flame)" would be lightred 13:12:11 it should flicker 13:12:13 like flame clouds 13:12:16 yes, that idea is already somewhere on the tracker 13:14:04 -!- Icelos has left ##crawl-dev 13:17:08 nht (L27 CeBe) ASSERT(probe != attack_constraints.connection_constraints->end()) in 'mon-abil.cc' at line 1569 failed. (Coc:7) 13:20:25 O_o 13:29:31 so, how do people like this idea for a revised way of making use of magic-affecting traits: 13:30:16 power and success = int + school; hunger = spellcasting; slots = spellcasting + levels; noise = spellcasting + dex; casting in armour = armour + str 13:32:47 dex? 13:34:17 monky: more graceful and correct spell gestures let you have less need to loudly chant words of power 13:39:14 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:39:15 Eronarn: sure why not 13:42:27 sorear: i am incapable of processing "why not" when it comes to my own ideas 13:44:14 Eronarn: why power and success with the same factors? 13:44:39 Eronarn: we recently had a system which used Int, Spc, school in the following way: hunger = Spc + Int; success = Int + school; power = school + Spc (not saying that's the way to go but still) 13:45:21 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 13:46:20 dpeg: i like the idea that raising int and raising a spell skill are basically the same, except one is global and one isn't; it lets races with bad int still be competitive, just not in as many spell schools 13:46:35 int should be power, schools should be success imo 13:46:52 TGWi: power needs to scale, so it can't be just int 13:47:00 schools can affect both then 13:47:19 but remove int from success formula, and let's say spellcasting from power 13:47:25 dpeg: I recall success and power being the other way around (int+school for power; school+spc for success) 13:47:26 I believe that schools need to be useful for both success and power. To me, it's the question what other factor should go in (if any). 13:47:32 yeah, removing int from success was under consideration 13:47:46 TGWi: yes, that was where we came from, iirc 13:47:57 basically, if int doesn't affect success then strength is more competitive as heavy armour caster 13:48:28 you'd choose between power and success with your attributes 13:49:19 the fewer factors, the better; the question is what *needs* to affect things 13:49:29 agreed 13:49:48 one potential issue with such a change is that it would make casting harder at low level of skill 13:49:59 so i think we'd need to revisit, in particular, the multi-school formula 13:50:14 well, the formula would be tweaked to compensate obviously 13:55:47 There was an idea a long while back for multi-school formula that I thought was quite nice (for two-school spells, at least), that whichever of the two schools was higher contributed more to your success rating, and the lower of the two schools contributed more to the power rating. 13:56:08 Cryp71c: i think i might prefer a system where a spell has primary and secondary schools 13:56:10 IDK if that is anything like what you guys are discussion 13:56:14 indicated by a * or something 13:56:38 that would probably be a nerf for multi-elemental conjurations 13:56:41 and not much else 13:57:03 TGWi: depends on the numbers used... you could make it, for example, give a boost to ice/pois in freezing/pois cloud 13:57:04 -!- Vandal| has quit [] 13:57:11 talking to Cryp71c 13:57:15 oh 13:57:18 yes 13:59:11 Cryp71c: I like this idea... my idea was more radical: for multi-school spells, use the lowest of the three for power. 13:59:33 (Of course, this would need looking at all those spells and their levels. Cryp71c'S proposal is easier.) 13:59:39 dpeg: that would make b.magma completely unusable, though 13:59:44 and other stuff like that 14:00:02 hell, all conjurations unless you invest heavily in the element and coj itself 14:01:08 Theoretically speaking, of course, multi-school spells should be inherently stronger than single-school spells, since conceptually, multiple schools combine strengths and weaknesses to help compliment one another, if you were considering spells on an elemental sense. 14:01:25 if we were gonna do anything like that i'd suggest the reverse: your highest school counts for 75%, your lowest for 25% 14:01:26 weighting the better school higher in general might help 14:01:26 This would justify artificially boosting some/most of the multi-school spells' power 14:01:45 since it makes them more accessible from either direction (and not weak) 14:01:51 TGWi: this assumes that we change one aspect and leave everything else untouched. Which is not realistic. 14:01:53 Cryp71c: um how does mixing 'conjurations' and 'fire' and 'earth' combined strengths and weaknesses 14:02:13 Eronarn, why would anyone ever boost the secondary skill, unless the higher school is already maxed. 14:02:32 Cryp71c: it would make certain spells more specialised (to the casters, not the monsters) which is good, imo. 14:02:47 or summon ice beasts. it is sum/ice. that isn't combining strengths and weaknesses, that's *summoning something made out of ice* 14:02:49 or we could keep the current formula 14:02:49 Cryp71c: diminishing returns on XP=>levels 14:03:12 if you have ice 20, and are using ice conj, it will be cheaper to raise your conj 0=>4 than your ice 20=>21 14:03:34 Eronarn, take the strengths of each and combine them. Fire burns and causes physical harm to items susceptible to it, while earth contributes damage to things normally unsusceptible to fire. 14:03:48 Cryp71c: now you're just making stuff up 14:03:51 Eronarn, there wouldn't be much value in trying to explain nonelemental / elemental type spells, as you've indicated. 14:03:57 Eronarn, (its a fantasy game, welcome) 14:04:01 Making stuff up is how it works. 14:04:12 To me it is all about burning books. 14:04:35 addressing this from an issue of pure mechanics: it is good if both an ice elementalist and a conjurer can use an ice/conj spell 14:04:36 they should go about using said spell in different ways 14:04:45 the ice elementalist is approaching this from an ice background, the conjurer from a conjurations background 14:05:03 seriously, I don't think there's anything wrong with the current formula 14:05:05 it is bad if they both have to learn the other school well to cast it with any appreciable amount of power 14:05:38 spells being accessible is a good thing; making people learn multiple schools to cast their spells reduces diversity 14:05:47 TGWi: i think the current formula should do at least a bit of weighting, because an unweighted average of the three makes trischool spells really hard to cast and forces lowering their levels to compensate except that's bad when a race has good apts for all three of the schools 14:05:52 Eronarn, don't get me wrong, I like the concept of spells having a primary / secondary / tertiary school which contributes on a sliding scale to the overall power of a multi-school spell. 14:06:18 Eronarn: I am not sure about that claim... given how many spells we have, wouldn't it be better if only _some_ conjurers can make good use of the Ice/Conj spell? 14:06:35 Eronarn, the reason I would support a simpler (and perhaps, less dynamic) system is simply because I'm not sure a higher degree of complexity benefits the player or current (and future) developers. 14:07:30 Eronarn: clouds are not really problematic 14:07:43 the worst you can do if you have good apts in all three is to get freezing cloud around lair, no? 14:08:02 Eronarn, the weaknesses of the current system that you've stated sound like appreciable aspects of multi-school casting. The only sacrifice that has to be made is that there can't be any low level tri-school spells, since they can't be used. 14:08:05 (effectively) 14:08:06 There is also the proposal to decouple spell effects along their schools. For example, the Air component in cloud spells could determine size. 14:08:08 which is more of a cool strategy than a broken exploit 14:08:11 dpeg: well, if we used, say, 66%/33% for higher/lower: a pure conjurer would have 66% the effective skill (not success rate, but actual skill level) of someone with the same level of both ice and conj 14:08:21 dpeg, that would be an interesting effect. 14:08:38 decoupling schools would be interesting as well because it would add more variety 14:08:39 as opposed to right now where someone with conj 10 has effective skill 5 14:09:03 ozocubu's armour already does that, a little 14:09:26 This would mean we try to make cloud spells workable for a range of casters, but high Air, low Fire (say) would play differently than vice versa. 14:09:33 TGWi: yes, i'm in favour of spells that do that (summon elemental does it too) 14:09:33 but, i don't think we can do this for every spell 14:09:39 Eronarn: definitely not 14:09:39 TGWi, it would imply redesigning all current spells, sine we'd need distinct effects for each school, and I'm not sure we can come up with such an effect for every school. 14:09:39 Not to mention air spells which are not clouds. 14:09:41 Eronarn: it is a lot of work, yes. 14:10:21 dpeg, that sounds like it goes hand in hand for cool stuff to be added by complex systems, right next to my theoretical hybrid mutation system :P 14:11:06 i think being able to selectively draw on your best schools would be a good thing 14:11:17 Eronarn: explain, please 14:11:56 dpeg: consider 10 conj 0 ice; 0 conj, 10 ice; 10 conj, 10 ice. right now their effective skills are 5 / 5 / 10 14:12:43 if it were weighted 2:1 they would be instead be 6.66 / 6.66 / 10 14:12:57 but now the case of 10 conj 4 ice, 10 conj 10 ice - latter is still 10, but former becomes 8 14:13:07 instead of 7 14:15:07 Eronarn, a weighted system (especially for conj) would immediately be a huge buff, since now they can invest in Conj like mad, ignore the skill, and do pretty well in all schools of conjuration magic. 14:15:14 Which becomes quite imbalanced, since conj is already pretty strong. 14:15:35 s/ignore the skill/ignore all other schools 14:15:45 Eronarn: as I indicated ^, I would punish for low schools, not reward a high school. 14:16:08 Cryp71c: if you have nothing other than conj, you can *only* cast conj spells 14:16:14 this is not a problem 14:16:41 So this weighted system also implies that you cannot cast a multi-school spell unless you have at least some skill in all schools for that spell? 14:16:46 dpeg: punishing for low schools is bad because then in a three school spell you are being punished if you have bad apts in any of the three schools 14:17:02 -!- Noom has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:17:12 Eronarn: so you don't start with a 3-school spell when you've got no skills yet. 14:17:46 dpeg: no, that's not what i mean - if you are being punished for having a low school, you have to raise the school, and can't make up for it by being good in the other two 14:17:51 or have to raise them to very high levels 14:18:02 even with the current formula, you have to raise them pretty high 14:18:43 Cryp71c: no - i mean that if you have conj 20 and nothing else you're not going to be good at casting blink, borg, etc. 14:18:56 does it actually matter if someone at conj 20 can cast every conj spell pretty well, as opposed to moderately (as is the case currently)? not really, imo 14:19:32 Eronarn: but shouldn't you still be able to cast level 3 spells with zero skill if Int or Spc (our choice) is high enough? 14:19:52 Eronarn: We have a problem with high skills, Ash has shown us that. 14:20:46 Eronarn, there is a balance concern with being able to cast every conj spell pretty well, since you'll have players with terrible fire / ice apt all of a sudden able to cast fire storm, ice storm, etc. with reasonable strength earlier on than they could've now. 14:20:57 They are probably too expensive (in xp cost) for what they do. We need to look at them one by one. 14:21:03 dpeg: i would like to change the formula such that int does not directly provide skill, but modulates it in some way, so that you need at least some skill in a school to be able to cast from it - the specifics do matter though, yes 14:21:59 Cryp71c: i don't really see a problem with this! it is different, but it is not bad 14:22:04 Eronarn: well, you need to be able to cast _something_ with 0 skill :) 14:22:07 also, diminishing returns 14:22:28 conj 27, you can cast ice storm, great - you have a LOT less versatility than someone who split that XP evenly over conj and ice 14:23:16 Eronarn, conj is already quite an easy game to play, buffing it in any shape isn't desirable, imo. 14:23:36 dpeg: that'd just mean changing the formula so that L1 spells are castable at a modest failure rate with no skill 14:23:45 I see two ways how to proceed with multischool spells (there'll be other ways too): (a) demand more effort in the skills, which makes multi-school something like an additional spell level cost (which is not intuitive); (b) give the various skill components different effects and tell players about it (that's a lot of work to get right). 14:23:59 In any case, I'm merely on the outskirts of this discussion, whatever formulas or systems you guys decide on, please keep in mind that there's no need to create a system that uses special behavior for certain spells, schools, or multi-schooled spells. 14:24:15 Power values can be changed, spells can be tweaked or removed altogether. 14:24:19 keep in mind that this would come after a nerf to spellcasting, to make it no longer affect spell power/success 14:24:40 one of the reasons that conjuration is such a good playstyle is that you aren't really sacrificing anything 14:24:41 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 14:24:47 galehar: hi! 14:24:52 because there are tons of good non-conj spells you gain access to just from raising spellcasting and int 14:24:56 hi 14:24:57 The system needs to stand on its own, or else we're going to have this issue again. 14:25:19 what's the topic? 14:25:20 conj would not be anywhere near as good if you didn't have swiftness, blink, or a significant portion of haste 'paid for' by raising your spc/int anyways for conj 14:25:28 galehar, spellcasting/int/school formula(s) 14:25:32 Eronarn: this is a perfect reason to both tone down the effect of Spc/Int and to demand more focus on spell schools. 14:26:10 If Spc only gives slots, MP and helps with hunger, that's clearly good enough, imo. 14:26:16 dpeg: right, i am talking about the latter only in the context of the former... it will be VERY hard to cast tri-school spells if you are only having success contributed to by the skills, in an unweighted average 14:26:39 So I step back from what I said before and now go with: success = Int + schools; power = schools. 14:26:47 Eronarn: is this the same what you said? 14:27:19 in mine, int added to both success and power - but i could see it adding to only one of the two (TGW favored it adding to power but not success) 14:27:31 galehar: I started typing an inventory help screen, but I am not sure it is needed. There's not so much to explain there :) 14:28:07 true 14:28:08 Eronarn: ah, yes. I like Int ==> success better, because I think an Int 25 guy should be able to cast a lot of spells, just not at full power. 14:28:13 Eronarn, it would make more sense (and be more easily balanced) to add int to success, rather than power. 14:28:22 galehar: so simply disabling _ there might do the trick :) 14:28:37 yes. it's just that it bother me that most of the help is off-topic 14:28:48 galehar: what help do you mean? 14:28:56 inventory 14:29:04 Cryp71c: that's wrong 14:29:14 it explains all the multiselect stuff which are irrelevant 14:29:18 it is much harder to balance someone having access to a wide array of spells than it is to balance someone having access to a few high powered spells 14:29:45 galehar: yes, I don't think inventory needs a help screen. 14:29:53 see right now, where spellcasting adds to success 14:30:00 there are bunches of spells where power isn't that important 14:30:18 Eronarn, being able to cast numerous level 2 spells without any skill in the schools is less of a balance issue than being able to get enchantments to skill 5 and suddenly be casting haste at huge power. 14:30:33 um, skill 5, what? 14:30:50 Eronarn: success will always also depend on school. Our choice to make a level X spell with 0 skill and Y Int have a chance of Z to work 14:30:56 a) that's dumb b) again, there are many spells where having the spell *at all* matters a lot more than the spell's power 14:31:08 avoid the word dumb 14:31:27 It rarely carries a meaning and only serves to aggravate people 14:32:01 Eronarn: if cTele only has a chance of 15% b/c of Int=50, Tloc=0, it would matter. 14:32:59 dpeg: it's fine if Z is non-zero at 0 skill, i just don't think it should be anywhere even close to reliable for anything but L1 spells 14:33:11 Eronarn: that's numerical details 14:33:16 solution: make the power matter more. But it has to be done per spell and is a lot of work 14:33:22 yes 14:33:43 galehar: we also have the problem that very high skills seem to be not useful enough. 14:33:49 galehar: sure, but i think we should have a system that works without having to revamp every spell (though thsoe revamps should come) 14:34:00 Eronarn, aye that's a detail irrelevant at the moment. You could scale success based on int and skill in a non-linear fashion, if you wanted to, but scaling power is inherently more problematic on some spells, and useless in others. 14:34:24 Whereas success is fairly linear in its importance across most spells. 14:34:31 dpeg: i would actually attribute this to the lack of good L6-8 spells 14:35:25 if you don't want to get high enough to storm, you are probably going to stop with L6 spells, maybe even lower if you don't feel like going ench for haste 14:36:35 What all non-elemental schools are there? 14:36:40 Conj, Summoning 14:36:50 tloc, tmut, ench (two after split) 14:36:53 poison 14:37:08 oh, and nec 14:37:23 Eh, we can consider poison and necromancy elemental schools, for arguments sake. 14:37:31 ...um, okay 14:37:33 I would be interested in someone formulating a system which uses partial weights, and forces all spells to use at least a core school 14:37:41 and then can have numerous (or just one) elemental school 14:37:53 interesting stuff, but I am going home :) 14:37:58 dpeg, see ya 14:38:08 I'd call necromancy a core school 14:38:20 yeah, one could argue as to whether its a core or elemental school 14:38:26 In either case, the basis would remain the same. 14:38:40 You could have Conj/Ice spells, but not pure ice, since its lacking a core school. 14:38:51 what happens to freeze 14:38:56 what happens to orefrig 14:39:11 Not all the current spells fit into the paradigm, but many/most do. 14:39:45 And such an approach would imply that the core school is always more heavily weighted than the elemental schools, or at the very least, they are evenly weighted for 2-school (conj/ice, summoning/fire) spells. 14:39:55 i don't like this idea 14:40:05 it means that i can't be an 'ice elementalist' 14:40:09 i have to be an ice summoner, or an ice conjurer 14:40:19 I agree with Eronarn 14:40:29 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:40:31 one nice thing about the crawl magic system is that i can treat any school as my 'primary' and branch out from it 14:40:39 Eronarn, not really, an ice elementalist can focus on ice and diversify their core schools 14:40:41 this is a good thing, and should be improved upon by making the branching more effective 14:40:47 instead of having to focus on a core school and diversify their elementals. 14:41:01 Yeah, just an idea I had. 14:41:15 Cryp71c: oh so i have to learn ice high, but also conj high, and also summ high, and also ench high? yes this sounds fun 14:41:18 Seems interesting to me, though doesn't necesarily follow the crawl playstyle we already have. 14:41:46 Eronarn, someone's testy today, it seems you're easily aggrivated when someone disagrees with your ideas? 14:42:14 Not a good approach when you're in open source development, fyi. 14:42:30 i don't care if someone disagrees with my ideas, but i do care if someone favors bad ideas 14:43:33 Throughout our discussion, I don't recall having taken favor to any other system than the general concept of a "simpler" one, vs a more complex one you're conceptualizing. 14:43:55 Unless you're mistaking my "interest in someone formulating a system..." for favoring it over any other. 14:44:08 s/any other/any other spellcasting system. 14:44:21 wait you suggest splitting schools into 'core' and 'elemental' and modifying existing spells to match that and you think my system is the more complex one? 14:47:32 I was interested in such a concept, extending from the approach of a weighted average system, which is the core component of what you're describing. Its no more complex, simply more changes all at once. 14:53:27 -!- eith has left ##crawl-dev 14:55:11 it's definitely more complex; it's a weighted average, but also bins the schools into categories that define what can/can't be weighted 14:56:18 what we have now is a good division; it's just that right now there is a constant success rate applied to everything, from spellcasting 14:56:30 -!- syllogism has quit [] 14:56:46 if that's removed, we need to make up for it, and letting people apply more of their stronger schools and less of their weaker ones is a good way to do it 15:22:54 03galehar * r60f01e7be88d 10/crawl-ref/source/menu.cc: Pickup/drop menus: allow ' and . keys right from the start. 15:22:58 how about improving the gain from schools 15:32:03 TGWi: i'm not sure that's necessary in the case of single school spells 15:32:28 they get a bonus from spellcasting, too 15:33:47 yeah, but for a relatively dedicated caster it shouldn't make too much difference 15:33:56 though we'll have to see how it turns out when i actually try a patch 15:36:57 I agree that more L6-8 good spells would help 15:44:48 i always have more ideas for spells B) 15:45:53 it would be pretty cool to bump Fireball to 7, and add in Cone of Cold (large, cone-shaped Freeze) 15:46:58 cone of cold so op (in dragon age) 15:47:44 maybe move statue form up to 7 or 8 but make it significantly better 15:48:10 cone shape is a lot of work to code 15:51:23 -!- Textmode has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:51:30 galehar: what about: choose side 1 of cone (beam), choose side 2 of cone (beam), hit everything in between them? is there something missing in current code that would make that hard to do? 15:51:38 -!- upsy has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:52:12 that's probably easier 15:52:40 but I didn't say it was impossible to make a true cone targetting. Just lot of code to write 15:53:06 and kilobyte showed some interest in a shotgun style spell which could share the targetting system 15:53:10 it'd be worth it though - i can think of several spells 15:53:24 bone shards is an obvious one 15:53:25 sure, it would be awesome :) 15:53:30 sandblast, perhaps 15:53:37 a 'stupefying wave' spell would be very cool 15:53:43 maybe sandblast should hit all 15:54:24 kb talked about making bolt of magma "shotgun style" 15:54:29 oh, or a magically enhanced shout spell 15:54:34 that would be fun 15:55:05 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 15:55:06 I want a spell like IOOD but instead of a projectile it's a ring 15:55:18 TGWi: that then closes on them? or what 15:55:24 that expands from you 15:55:34 oh, yes that'd be nice 15:55:35 hitting LOS but over multiple turns 15:55:41 Wave of Fire 15:55:44 closing in on a target would be cool too 15:55:59 needs frozen orb from d2 15:55:59 Eronarn: what schools don't have mid-level spells? 15:56:04 TGWi: you know the page! 15:56:07 on the wiki 15:56:13 ??wiki 15:56:13 wiki[1/4]: http://chaosforge.org/crawl/ Contains a lot of out of date and incorrect info. You can help by updating it. A correct wiki is a nice thing to have! The new dev wiki (to discuss changes and additions) can be found at https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=DCSS:start 15:56:17 the other one 15:56:41 actually, that might be cool for static discharge 15:56:54 it hits everything adjacent to you, then everything adjacent to those squares, etc. 15:56:57 doesn't really fit, electricity is fast 15:57:08 ball lightning? :P 15:57:22 ring of ball lightnings holding hands? 15:57:29 hmm, ice already has ozo's so it wouldn't work well there... but maybe earth 15:57:32 big spikes shoot out of the floor 15:57:40 no, like a wave 15:57:51 Exploring the Ecumenical Temple crashed the game (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2868) by Kyrris 15:57:51 oh wait no, better 15:57:53 gravitational pulse :D 15:58:18 it's a ring of high gravity that smacks things down to the ground and crushes them for the turn they're in it 15:59:15 that reminds me: we should have some spells that have delays 15:59:17 to cast 15:59:27 not a lot, but maybe 2-4 16:00:55 Eronarn: it's sort of a pain to sort through the immense table 16:01:04 it is rather... immense, yes 16:01:26 but offhand: earth/tmut/tloc/air have crappy mid level spells 16:01:39 fire and ice are fine, poison is okay but repetitive 16:01:40 like half of tloc is level 7 16:02:14 ench has a bunch but they're middling usefulness or broken or niche (two out of three) 16:02:33 air spells just need a buff 16:02:56 mostly, yeah 16:03:00 though i think we should maybe get rid of cbl 16:03:08 hey, cbl rocks 16:03:22 not a fan 16:03:48 though it could be cool if it spawned it at the edge of your LOS - 1d3 squares 16:05:21 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:07:10 air really needs a spell or two that work with ranged weapons 16:07:12 because seriously 16:07:15 air 16:08:09 Conjure Lightning Bolts could be pretty cool; they show up in your inventory and you throw 'em as if they were javelins 16:08:33 Kyrris (L8 KoVM) (Temple) 16:29:13 say hellow to my minute meteors 16:29:49 heh 16:34:06 sigh, why does Freeze have to be named Freeze :( 16:44:19 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 16:45:30 hmm... Fulsome Distillation:Fractional Distillation::Evaporate:Solidify? Glaciate? for a potion=>ice spell. 16:45:47 freeze is freeze because it freezes! 16:46:17 well, it could be Chill, Cold Front, Coldsnap, etc. :P 16:48:12 I vote that we rename ensorcelled hibernation to "chillax" 17:04:28 felirx: around? 17:04:42 for a bit 17:05:01 still messing with PrecisionMenu 17:05:13 I need to clear the screen, or at least part of it 17:05:27 do you know the specific part? 17:05:31 you can always hide the elements 17:05:38 in question 17:06:04 well, I tried hiding the freeform to clear everything, but it didn't work 17:06:26 what happened? 17:06:47 and in console or tiles 17:06:58 nothing, when I added new text, they were both texts on top of each others 17:07:04 tiles 17:08:17 in theory, if I set_visible(false) a TextItem, call draw_menu, change the text and set it back to visible, it should work? 17:09:38 it should 17:09:49 ok, I'll try harder :) 17:10:00 assuming it gets rendered again after visibilty is set back on 17:10:53 well, it will next time I wait for input 17:11:17 after setting visibility to false, calling draw_menu is enough to render it, right? 17:11:19 -!- OG17 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:12:28 -!- Twinge has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:14:26 -!- Twinge has joined ##crawl-dev 17:18:38 @??sky beast 17:18:38 sky beast (11I) | Speed: 10 | HD: 5 | Health: 17-39 | AC/EV: 3/13 | Damage: 511(elec:5-6) | Flags: fly | Res: 06magic(20), 11elec+++, asphyx | Chunks: 06mutagenic | XP: 130. 17:33:06 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:46:53 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 17:49:12 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 17:51:27 -!- galehar has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.12/20101026210630]] 17:54:37 yo 18:21:17 yo 19:13:20 -!- elliptic has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:18:49 -!- OG17 has joined ##crawl-dev 19:19:17 -!- Mu_ has quit [Quit: Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place.] 20:14:55 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 20:22:17 Damn it, I keep forgetting to tag dpeg 20:36:12 !tell dpeg I wanted to poke you about the idea of registering DCSS as a group on Freenode. 20:36:13 due: OK, I'll let dpeg know. 21:20:53 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:23:49 -!- hashc has joined ##crawl-dev 21:24:45 typo in monster description (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2869) by Maha 21:35:14 -!- Pacra has quit [Quit: Computer went to sleep] 21:35:54 -!- Twinge has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:36:24 -!- Twinge has joined ##crawl-dev 21:42:28 -!- hashc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:59:00 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 22:18:37 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:49:08 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 23:37:15 Windows development builds on CDO updated to: 0.8.0-a0-2589-g60f01e7 23:40:23 -!- slyshy has joined ##crawl-dev 23:58:10 -!- Textmode has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:59:06 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection]