00:01:33 -!- hashc has joined ##crawl-dev 00:11:51 -!- Pacra has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:29:03 FR: whenever we remove an item, add it as an unrand (amulet of res slow!) 01:55:36 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 01:55:45 hi 01:55:49 Hi 01:56:00 hi 01:57:56 good to see blademasters weren't included in the random current speed - 1 nerfs 02:07:57 -!- Guest61845 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:11:12 -!- Twilight has joined ##crawl-dev 02:11:38 -!- Twilight is now known as Guest82750 02:14:21 -!- Siber has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:14:31 -!- Siber has joined ##crawl-dev 02:18:50 -!- Kurper has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:28:14 -!- elliptic has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:29:38 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 02:32:46 -!- upsy has joined ##crawl-dev 02:51:44 -!- monky has quit [Quit: hello] 03:02:03 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 04:12:32 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 04:22:35 -!- Pacra has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:29:49 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 04:31:42 kilobyte: when forget from book failed, were the spell mapped to Z? 04:35:30 h 04:35:52 I _think_ both spellbooks were randarts, but I'm not so sure about that. 04:36:31 no, I mean the spell. was it mapped to the Z letter? 04:37:38 no, 'h' 04:37:48 ok 04:40:25 I think I found the bug 04:40:32 oh noes, a bug! 04:40:37 * due squishes it under shoe. 04:43:14 hey, a save I copied due to a buggy silent spectre has such a randart book in the inventory, and the bug is reproductible 04:48:02 galehar: got my mail? 04:48:11 yes 04:48:49 I removed set_transform() from CRTRegion::render 04:48:53 as you suggested 04:49:00 it didn't seem to break anything 04:49:14 but the question still stands, why does it work on char select menus but not ingame 04:49:31 I can't figure it out 04:50:06 I pushed the change yesterday, and the windows build have been updated. So if it creates any problem, we should hear about it soon 04:51:59 kilobyte: about Ash's preserve curse message, I had the message when I enchanted an uncursed armour. Somehow, I can't reproduce it anymore, but I noticed that in the enchant_armour function, do_uncurse_item is called without any check at the end 04:55:32 yes, but there's a check inside that function in the previous if 04:55:39 I added it like a week ago 04:56:39 that's why I reverted your change -- this check is redundant now, I guess you didn't notice the previous if 04:57:01 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 04:57:47 but we go in in the previous if only when the armour isn't affected but the enchant 04:58:58 uhm, no: if (!item.cursed()) 04:59:11 we go there always if the item is not actually cursed 04:59:51 in which case it marks it as known to be uncursed and bails out 05:00:16 itemprop.cc line 545 05:01:14 ok, got it 05:01:33 I probably wasn't playing on the latest version then 05:08:00 Hi everyone 05:08:00 dpeg: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 05:08:09 !messages 05:08:09 (1/1) due said (3d 22h 40m 32s ago): Your wiki page suggests that gameplay and interface are more important than realism OR flavour. I posit that flavour is just as important, if it is good flavour as opposed "realistic" flavour for realism's sake. 05:08:40 due: I'd reckon gameplay > interface > flavour > realism 05:09:14 kilobyte: got a spider zig:25, the mp drain was indeed effective and pretty hard to avoid, i could just melee everything down with no mp though 05:09:20 dpeg: :o! 05:09:24 dpeg: get back, ye heathen! 05:09:28 clarity and rPois basically nullifies everything other than the mp drain 05:09:31 due: never been away :) 05:09:48 due: or did I say something wrong? 05:09:58 dpeg: I'm teasing. :) 05:09:59 if flavor would be as important to me as gameplay, I wouldn't play a fantasy rl but a science fiction rl 05:10:00 MarvinPA: your char has all skills at 27, and unlike most Zig runners uses Ash 05:10:19 In my opinion, flavour is next to gameplay and interface, not less significant than themm. 05:10:20 yeah, it's hardly a good example 05:10:23 * dpeg feels teased, greased and appeased. 05:10:35 Ash will be a popular zig god 05:10:47 I had to drop Ash for Makhleb to have any mana for example -- no channeling save for the unreliable ball 05:10:47 the ghost moths would definitely make it a more interesting challenge for more normal characters 05:11:25 due: the linear ordering is a bit shaky, but if forced to choose between smooth interface and cool flavour we always ended up with the interface so far, I think. (Think butchering, praying.) 05:11:31 but yeah, ash is great just for the conveniences in pan of zig/exit detection and so on 05:11:52 MarvinPA: what do you think about A in general? 05:11:54 03kilobyte * ree4e7974c3e9 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/clua/ziggurat.lua: Give Zig Spider levels the full weight, they can actually be interesting. 05:12:00 kilobyte: :) 05:12:04 Dwarf set might be nice too, as two of the monsters have Injury Mirror 05:12:53 i really like ash as a god to switch to later on for the passive abilities, this game i feel like the xp boost made my character too powerful too quickly though 05:12:59 dpeg: Well, flavour is mostly textual in my opinion. :) 05:13:08 for Marvin, it would be a pain to get all skills to max without Ash redirecting it the right way :p 05:13:46 yeah, although i used reskilling in a more reasonable way earlier on, to reskill tmut into air for tornado 05:14:26 -!- Textmode has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:14:31 due: maybe a native speaker feels different (I was surprised how big the difference of the immersion was when I had a mostly finished nethack-de to play) but for most non native speaker it's just funny words we had to look up in a dictionary and most of the connotations and associations of the words didn't get noticed 05:14:57 bhaak: but *I* get them, and that's all I care about. :) 05:15:19 yes, that's not really an argument for not doing flavor, only for not letting dpeg do it :) 05:15:28 * due snorts. 05:15:48 but you probably won't get lots of support. 05:16:12 bhaak: jpeg and I were the ones who made Trog burn books. 05:16:15 No words needed. 05:17:05 Of course, there are supposedly still roguelikes in use where "flavour" means screenfuls of text. 05:17:15 although I can feel your pain somewhat. I still cringe when I see "corpse" used in nethack-de on anything from plants to animals to humanoids and human beings 05:17:20 it's a bit weird that Troggies lug around a stack of books to use as grenades in emergencies 05:18:00 kilobyte: yes, that wasn't really planned. From time to time I rally for making books of the "throws awkwardly" type, but there's always someone to intercept me. 05:18:23 how nethackish of Trog 05:18:31 bhaak: ? 05:18:38 Ever thrown a book? 05:18:41 you already do throw them awkwardly -- they make 0 (or near that) damage but still go to the right spot 05:18:52 and usually the right spot is just next to you 05:19:21 bhaak: how are corpses related to -de? 05:19:23 kilobyte: no no, if they properly throw awkwardly, they'd fly just a single square (which is fine with me). 05:19:29 if an enemy passes through the fire, they get damaged just once, but if they spend every turn fighting you in the cloud, that's a major factor even in late midgame 05:19:41 dpeg: no, but from kilobyte's message I supposed you could throw them, hit a monster and then ignite them? 05:20:17 bhaak: yes. My plan was that a Troggie would drop books to incite at the right time, but players actually throw them. 05:20:21 even dropping them, taking a step back and igniting wouldn't waste an extra turn 05:20:31 kilobyte: yes, I am fine with that application 05:20:36 I find the throwing a bit cheesy but it' 05:20:44 s much better than not burning books at all, of course 05:20:56 dpeg: but using books that way is rather nethackish, IMO 05:21:09 I don't. 05:21:14 There is nothing hidden about it. 05:21:57 sorear: the german word for "corpse" I used, "Kadaver", is not really fit for human beings and plants. Also the english word "corpse" doesn't really fit for the whole range of dead beings in nethack. 05:23:01 dpeg: it doesn't need to be hidden. Creative and unusual usage and interaction of items. It's similar to throwing a potion of acid at monster over a fountain to get a water-acid explosion if the monster doesn't get hit directly 05:23:21 bhaak: I apologise that we have one instance of creative and unusual item use :P 05:23:53 yes, you should! if players learn about that they will go looking for other creative and unusual ways to use items! 05:23:57 Usually someone stops me in my track just by mumbling "Nethack", but I wouldn't let go of book burnination. 05:24:17 bhaak: They will ask "which god allows me to burn plants" :) 05:24:28 or scrolls etc. 05:25:38 yeah, why don't plants burn! aren't there dead/brown trees somewhere? they should burn like cinder! 05:25:55 there's an issue: the Dwarf monster set includes berserkers which will currently burn books -- which form a good percentage of Zig loot 05:26:14 bhaak: trees can be ignited, bushes are vulnerable to fire 05:26:15 "killed by a forest fire" how cool would that be 05:26:33 bhaak: Hot, I think. 05:26:48 bhaak: already implemented (not with that message, though) 05:26:49 kilobyte: that's awesome! 05:27:07 (that dwarves burn the books in Zig, that is) 05:27:15 swell, I can live out my pyromaniacal desires 05:27:25 do they burn stuff when they are out of LOS? 05:27:54 I mean, we'd need then to jelly-protect them, and that could make firestorm-happy players pause 05:28:06 do the dwarf berserkers still have BiA? 05:28:07 which is not what we want with Injury Mirror :p 05:28:17 they do 05:28:21 ugh 05:28:40 i suppose it's fine to have a ridiculously unbalanced monster set if they're just for zigs, though 05:28:41 cannot go wrong with berserk opposition 05:28:42 :P 05:29:28 I am typing these lines in a fit of madness, so why can't Crawl's populace be just a little mad as well? 05:29:31 actually, a single berserker is easier than a demonologist 05:29:44 you can abjure 1s 05:29:53 the beauty of Zigs is that you meet a squad of them at once 05:29:53 yes, the hope is that the combination of monsters makes matters interesting 05:29:59 yeah 05:30:10 will dwarf hall zig levels have war dogs 05:30:21 st_: would that matter? 05:30:27 st_: the current set of monsters in Dwarf makes no sense 05:30:30 has to be true to the branch imo 05:30:31 +1 05:30:39 orange rats? war dogs? WTH? 05:30:39 the dwarf monster set is not great, yeah 05:31:38 needs to be sanitized regardless of whether the branch will end up a 1-level one, a portal vault or nothing but a Zig set 05:32:39 I'd axe anything but dwarves, wraiths and giants, perhaps trolls. 05:34:19 not sure about wraiths either 05:34:57 these fit blue_anna's "tomb of fallen heroes" theme, but not really an actual place where dwarves live 05:35:05 and we have too many tombs already 05:35:45 the deep dwarf unborn are the worst, i'd say 05:36:03 tormentors in a branch full of living, non-regenerating dwarves 05:36:23 @?? deep dwarf unborn 05:36:23 deep dwarf unborn (16q) | Speed: 10 | HD: 11 | Health: 63-90 | AC/EV: 2/10 | Damage: 8 | Flags: 07undead, evil, spellcaster | Res: 06magic(117), 02cold, 03poison | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 1570 | Sp: torment symbol, dispel undead (3d19), mirror damage, animate dead, haunt. 05:36:46 @?? deep dwarf necromancer 05:36:47 deep dwarf necromancer (06q) | Speed: 10 | HD: 7 | Health: 25-52 | AC/EV: 2/10 | Damage: 8 | Flags: evil, spellcaster | Res: 06magic(56) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 284 | Sp: pain (d11), dispel undead (3d14), animate dead, vampiric draining. 05:38:31 oh, _torment_?? 05:38:41 yep! :P 05:38:42 now that's probably indeed broken 05:39:09 agony might be a better fit, though 05:39:09 haunt seems like it could be given to something else 05:39:21 doesn't monster agony just turn into torment? 05:39:40 for ghosts 05:39:44 oh ok 05:39:45 MarvinPA: for... ghosts. 05:39:49 since IIRC agony is not a monster spell 05:39:56 well i don't know any monsters that cast agony 05:39:57 right 05:40:53 It's easily implemented. 05:42:05 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 05:42:38 getting slowed while hasted is basically nothing now, you spend a few turns at normal and then return to haste 05:43:25 it only matters in tomb but deathcurse slow used to be really bad 05:49:08 -!- Textmode has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 05:50:37 MarvinPA (L27 DrIE) ASSERT(slot != NUM_MONSTER_SLOTS) in 'mon-act.cc' at line 1379 failed. (Zig:23) 05:50:42 uh oh 05:52:38 -!- MarvinPA|2 has joined ##crawl-dev 05:55:17 that merfolk has a staff of energy in his alt slot 05:55:17 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:55:24 alt weapon 05:56:11 wow, monster rod/staff usage introduced a lot of crashes :P 05:56:17 -!- MarvinPA|2 is now known as MarvinPA 05:57:16 shall i put the crash dump on mantis? 06:03:45 MarvinPA (L27 DrIE) (Zig:25) 06:03:49 aah 06:03:57 crashes are fun 06:04:19 !lm . -log 06:04:19 9057. MarvinPA, XL27 DrIE, T:314430 (milestone): http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/MarvinPA/crash-MarvinPA-20101122-120344.txt 06:07:55 Crash when activating reskilling (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2857) by MarvintheParanoidAndroid 06:07:55 Crash in zig (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2856) by MarvintheParanoidAndroid 06:08:34 -!- TGWi has joined ##crawl-dev 06:24:26 03kilobyte * rfb65c3d0f604 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-util.cc: Return a proper mslot for staves. 06:24:37 03kilobyte * r25240fee3085 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-stuff.cc: Fix monsters throwing unthrowable weapons if for some reason they have two. 06:25:10 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 06:26:53 -!- Vandal has joined ##crawl-dev 06:27:16 -!- TGWi has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:37:28 MarvinPA: is it possible to get the save file from your crash? 06:38:22 yeah, i can make a backup, i haven't been able to reproduce it afterwards though 06:38:34 reskilling has been working since then 06:40:09 added it to the mantis report, sorry i don't really have any good repro steps 06:40:30 -!- Pacra has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:40:42 if it happens again i'll note down exactly how 06:43:01 ok, I'll look at it. thanks 06:47:11 galehar: the only unguarded division in that function is by (you.skill_points[fsk] - you.ct_skill_points[fsk]) 06:58:27 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 06:59:18 yes, but transfer_skill_points shouldn't even have been called at this point. It is called only when you select the second skill. 07:00:07 right, the crash was in that function, though 07:01:24 yes, I'll put some safety there, but it is still strange 07:01:55 MarvinPA: you're sure it crashed immediately after pressing b? You didn't even see the menu for selecting the first skill? 07:02:25 hmm, sorry yeah - i did see the menu 07:02:31 i don't think i selected any skills though 07:03:23 !lm MarvinPA type=crash -tv 07:03:23 12. MarvinPA, XL27 DrIE, T:314430 (milestone) requested for FooTV. 07:03:42 can't watch footv from work :( 07:03:59 can you tell me what happened exactly? 07:04:37 right, i just pressed ab, the menu came up then it crashed 07:05:14 after a very short amount of time, no first skill was selected 07:05:26 that's weird 07:05:36 -!- Noom has joined ##crawl-dev 07:05:43 there was a frame asking for the source list, the next frame is clearing the screen, then the end 07:07:12 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 07:18:24 kilobyte: it shouldn't be possible for (you.skill_points[fsk] - you.ct_skill_points[fsk]) to be null. I'll put an assert to avoid a crash in this case. I checked the values in Marvin's save file and they are ok. I don't understand what happened. 07:21:20 I don't know how it got to that function if you say it shouldn't be there... but you don't use floats there and, beautifully named "floating point exception" can happen only then or for division by 0 (or 1<<31 / -1, I think), so it would be the only division that can possibly be by zero 07:23:59 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 08:09:52 felirx: Would it be hard to add multicolour support to TextItem? Or should I dynamically create and delete TextItem objects when switching between progress and aptitude? 08:13:45 it should read parsed texts 08:13:55 don't think I ever got around to implementing that though 08:14:08 iirc basicly you swap the std::string for a formatted_string 08:14:12 and display that instead 08:14:36 comment in menu.h: Basic Item with std::string unformatted text that can be selected 08:14:48 but I'll try anyway :) 08:15:00 you can try 08:15:09 not sure if it works straight away on both tiles and console 08:28:07 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 08:38:17 felirx: it doesn't work. And seeing the TextItem::render function, I'm not surprised 08:40:12 -!- Pseudonut has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:42:08 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 08:57:40 -!- eith has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:14:55 g'morning 09:18:35 -!- galehar has quit [Quit: Page closed] 09:41:23 Hi 09:41:54 dpeg: recite! :D 09:45:02 Eronarn: yes, saw the patch. Not much time for Crawl lately, but I should really comment there. 09:48:49 dpeg: even just a comment on the flavour/direction would be helpful - i personally like the idea of Zin becoming a more wrathful god, but some people preferred recite being a 'non-magical' ability with strictly effects based on confusing/etc. enemies with your words 09:52:13 I didn 09:52:28 t make up my mind on that, but I will 09:54:39 sure; no hard feelings if the patch is not usable - i coded it in a fit of frustration after seeing how bad the current ability was, so hardly a consensus thing 09:58:00 it is good to see thought go into Zin 09:58:09 I guess I'll assign to dolorous to get his opinion, too 09:58:36 but gods are clearly flexible and if we want to keep Recite, then changes are in order 10:14:49 dpeg: oh, hey - I was inspired wrt the 'undead reformist' god. 10:15:10 TSO = gold = sun 10:15:13 zin = silver = stars 10:15:19 ely = marble = moon 10:15:36 so, a holy god of the night sky 10:15:57 or of the places where the night sky's light cannot reach, etc. 10:16:21 interesting! 10:16:45 Ely, the healing moon :) 10:16:48 this would not necessarily be 'the' thief god, but would be a stealth god 10:17:47 I recall that the undead reformist god was lacking in design... only the final power seemed clear. 10:18:53 i think stealth + undead effects would be interesting, because undead are something stabby/stealthy characters often have issues with 10:19:20 even for characters who are not themselves undead, they could have undead-related effects 10:19:50 like unintelligent undead being neutral to them unless one gets too close 10:20:27 definitely not good to go, but i think there is room there for a god 10:31:14 would the god be exclusively for undead? 10:31:27 (sorry for delay, colleagues talking here) 10:42:20 i don't think we want a god exclusively for undead: there are only a handful of undead races, and this will be just one god among many for them 10:42:46 rather, i think we want a god that has some set of core features, and then if you are undead, either adds some more or swaps some different ones in 10:43:37 yes, I agree 10:43:46 (I am not sure what the original ideas was) 10:44:26 i don't recall ever seeing a fleshed out proposal for such a god, just a notion that it would be cool to have (which i agree with) 10:46:37 Eronarn: there was something... including a list of powers 10:50:50 -!- jld has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:52:20 I didn't like how that god revolves around removing basic racial uniqueness. Flavor's also bad, as it's hard to see tso etc suddenly welcoming a mummy just because some other god gave them a thumbs-up. "Undead" is a very innate property and zin isn't going to give you a pass just because you're a nice guy 10:52:45 for here, really don't think gods should work differently for different races 10:54:54 To the contrary, I like the idea that (game) rules can be broken.... by gods. 10:55:16 OG17: i think that generally it's a bad idea, but there is room for it - see okawaru only granting gifts that you can actually wear/use 10:55:54 OG17: And the undead is not a "nice guy", he has proven his worth as a tool for the common purpose. 10:55:55 that works so much better than the alternative that people don't even consider it 'working differently' 10:56:02 how is "every race gets gifts that it can use" treating races differently 10:56:28 and the common purpose is partly wiping out undead, good gods don't seem this open-minded at all 10:56:48 OG17: 'every race gets X that it can use' is not true much of elsewhere in the game where racial restrictions exist 10:56:53 OG17: and if an undead wants to participate, where's the problem? 10:56:54 again, this is somewhere that it works well 10:56:59 and is thus mostly invisible 10:57:00 The fifth colonne is not a new invention. 10:57:12 colon, probably 10:57:50 column 10:58:00 good gods don't like undead and demons, this is pretty definitive 10:58:23 not sure what you're saying eronarn, that's just how acquirement works 10:58:26 for everyone 10:58:52 Eronarn: thanks! 11:00:41 OG17: Everyone is entitled to an opinion how gods should tick, but I don't see a problem with a good god enlisting the undead subversion. 11:01:05 OG17: yes, and by extension, it is how oka works. compare: mummies being able to draw hunger-related nemelex cards (no adjustment is made there) 11:01:19 basically I don't get why there'd a god that makes undead like everyone else, it's like having a god that turns non-trolls into trolls 11:01:30 trog 11:01:36 what about trog 11:01:42 also what about cards 11:03:04 OG17: the real question is: Would you like to see the odd Ghoul of Zin? Several players would (me included). 11:03:10 and "subversion" seems out of character to me, good gods don't appear to be against undead individually but against them because they're undead 11:03:16 no, that completely flies against zin flavor 11:03:32 ghouls are a perversion of form, etc 11:03:38 no trial is going to change that 11:04:07 i do agree with that - i would not want to see the existing good gods have undead followers 11:04:18 however, i think there is enough room for a good god that permits undead followers 11:04:31 what's the point of having it be a good god, then? 11:04:49 and why would the others stay allied with him 11:05:25 OG17: flavor, mechanics - and because they grudgingly tolerate such a thing, for the same reason that TSO doesn't smite zin stabbers or poisoners 11:05:32 It's a ghoul who has undergone a purification ritual. 11:05:56 it's still a ghoul, though 11:06:45 DSPA :( 11:06:55 I sort of feel like anti-undead anti-demon is a bigger issue than the individual god's "no poison" "no intelligent corpses" etc but I guess you could argue otherwise 11:07:02 feels pretty fundamental to me 11:07:24 Siber: we need more context! 11:07:51 good gods are defined by being against "evil" and that's undead and demons 11:07:51 Oh, the conversation just reminded me of my long standing desire to play a demonspawn paladin. 11:07:56 (orange brains) 11:07:56 ah :) 11:08:08 Favorite class+favorite race 11:08:33 -!- jld has joined ##crawl-dev 11:09:33 OG17: so while all good gods accept that the generic demon/devil is evil and should be killed on sight, why do you assume they're so devoid of subtlety as to not acknowledge the existence of useful/purified/etc undead? 11:10:17 OG17: only one of the three good gods even likes undead kills 11:10:37 zin likes unclean kills, and non-insubstantial undead are unclean, but he doesn't care about ghosts 11:10:46 there's not much subtle about good gods to begin with 11:11:00 OG17: it's our game, we can change any aspect 11:11:01 heck, doesn't ely pacification work on undead? 11:11:05 Eronarn: yes 11:11:12 eronarn, yes, I don't really agree with that in its entirety though 11:11:26 dpeg you can do whatever you want obviously, I think it's good as it is 11:11:31 OG17: so now you're arguing from 'i want the good gods to be like' rather than 'the good gods are like' 11:11:39 and that this isn't valuable enough to change it for it 11:11:56 no, I'm saying that the current piety mechanics don't strictly match the flavor 11:12:06 I never rallied for adding the undead reformist god. But I like what it'd bring: different flavour to the good/evil thing, and some odd combos. 11:12:50 My take on it is if the player wants to play his redeemed undead/demon/whatever, unless theres a compelling mechanical reason not to, to an extent what the designers wanted should flex a bit to allow what the players wanted. But that's just little old me 11:12:54 odd combos aren't notable because they're odd, they're less notable because they're removing real differences 11:13:15 if "evil" races can't worship good gods, but then they can, that's not adding something to the game 11:14:01 OG17: I don't think you understand what the god is about. 11:14:07 naturally 11:14:20 Nobody talks about Ghouls starting worshipping Zin at the ET. 11:14:44 nobody has said that, yes 11:15:09 "not adding something to the game" 11:15:54 yes? 11:17:59 -!- hashc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:18:19 you could add a god that would eventually let you cast spells under trog, and that character would certainly be "odd" under current standards, but it's removing what makes trog trog 11:19:03 I am not responsible for your lack of fantasy. 11:24:43 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 11:25:47 would anyone be opposed to invisibility no longer overriding corona if it's recast / corona having a normal duration on invis creatures? just: if you are glowing, you cannot be invisible, period (as this is the way it works with player glow) 11:28:55 Eronarn: including gray glow? 11:29:11 dpeg: no, yellow+. corona has no grey equivalent 11:29:12 ah, monsters only 11:29:17 fine by me 11:29:51 Eronarn: this would be a Corona boost? 11:30:15 yes, but corona is a resisted spell, so it's not like everyone would pick it up 11:30:40 sure sure 11:33:48 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 11:35:26 -!- Keskitalo has joined ##crawl-dev 11:35:34 Good evening! 11:36:06 Hi Eino! 11:36:21 Keskitalo: You've been active on Mantis! 11:36:47 hi dpeg! Yeah, it took me only a month to reply to that boring beetle patch! 11:37:05 :) 11:37:15 How's the family? 11:38:09 Good, thanks, just had one final ultrasound today and everything looked good. 11:38:25 The due date is in about five weeks. 11:38:26 Awesome. What's the expected date? 11:38:29 ah :) 11:39:26 I read through the commits, Tornado sounds interesting. :) 11:39:42 Keskitalo: Ash has been causing ... a little controversy :) 11:40:45 Mostly on IRC? I haven't seen it 11:41:43 Keskitalo: mostly. But the wiki page was also close to overloaded. 11:41:59 Ah, I haven't been following it it seems. 11:42:16 I think Ash is decent right now: plays differently, does useful things. Can be improved upon. 11:42:32 Keskitalo: I have tae kwon do in 20 minutes, gotta go :( 11:44:35 Keskitalo: we also have new draconians, a bunch of good interface stuff, and there's a Recite overhaul patched (and invented!) by Eronarn. 11:44:39 I played a cloud mage when Scrying allowed smite targetting, that was funny (and unbearably scummy, of course). 11:45:06 Keskitalo: :P Feeling megalomaniac? 11:45:45 Later! 11:45:52 See ya! 11:45:56 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: perkele, nights, giup] 11:46:19 I have a month-old DrFE/Ash going too, too bad I got Pale which doesn't have a new breath weapon. But it survived to midgame nicely, so they probably are better now overall. 11:46:33 Too bad I can't use my Fire apt to cast Dragon From. :P 11:46:42 s/apt/skill 11:46:53 oh cool, i didn't get a 'berserk is running out' message for some reason 11:47:46 Eronarn: Recite overhaul sounds exciting, I don't have the time to look at it but, sounds good already :) 11:48:53 Keskitalo: thanks :) it is a pretty significant departure from existing, but i think that's a good thing considering zin's current likeability 11:56:57 Overpowered (bug) current Recite that was in for a while before 0.7 was quite popular, so I think it could be fixed with just numbers. But, a good overhaul would of course be just as good. (And probably more interesting from older players' point of view) 12:09:06 "power of words and faith" is a lot more flavorful than "zin tears stuff up for you" but it could probably be preserved by replacing that stuff with comparable "mundane" effects, eg pillar of salt becomes permanent paralysis or whatever 12:10:08 though I'd also prefer making the old recite useful instead 12:17:01 OG17: i disagree; in a game where you generally call down gods directly, i don't think just talking at people is particularly good flavor for an ability 12:17:20 I do because it's the only one with that flavor 12:17:31 this is like reciting to cast minor destruction 12:18:56 being a missionary of zin was the big flavor selling point to me 12:19:18 (even if recite was useless) 12:19:34 honestly I think Zin should just become an endgame god, his conducts are so annoying in the early/mid, in the endgame they don't matter and his passive stuff is actually useful there 12:19:34 you'll still convert people, you'll just also have tools against the unclean, chaotic, etc. 12:19:48 st_: i don't think we should have 'endgame gods' 12:20:02 unclean chaotic etc should just be affected by your preaching, as in old recite 12:20:10 also yes but good luck convincing anyone else of that 12:20:31 OG17: the problem is that the majority of unclean/chaotic/etc. enemies you encounter are unintelligent 12:21:07 maybe unclean but there's not many unclean monsters to begin with 12:21:28 also for as much as 'new recite = reciting to cast minor destruction' 12:21:33 also don't think that's a problem 12:21:35 old recite = reciting to cast enchantments 12:21:57 they were flavored as being the power of your words, not the power of a god 12:22:04 you can't do that with smiting etc 12:23:52 literal smiting I mean, you could have enemies spasm/seizure or whatever and have the same damaging effect 12:24:11 Zin's glow rules are confusing and obscure and should be fixed also 12:24:13 OG17: the smiting only kicks in on things that zin hates; against everything he doesn't care about it's still mundane 12:24:14 doesn't work for animals but it shouldn't in the first place 12:24:32 mundane across the board is better 12:24:43 zin's rules are kind of confusing in the first place I think 12:25:01 as far as what's unclean and not 12:25:06 i semi-rewrote those 12:25:14 i'm still using the existing functions but also new stuff 12:27:21 with mine you're treated as chaotic if you're: yiuf/psyche/gastronok; are an actual spellcaster with a chaotic spell; are innately chaotic (stuff harmed by silver - fake spellcaster with a chaotic spell, an ugly thing, tiamat, have a mutate attack...); worship a chaotic god 12:28:16 also when you say unintelligent do you mean non-humanoid or just like plant-level 12:28:17 unclean if you have an unclean spell, eat the dead, are a walking corpse, have vampiric/disease/hunger/rot/steal/steal food brands 12:28:39 (but excepting things that are truly natural disease-causers) 12:28:55 http://pizzarules.com/367 <- now those are nice glyphs for Crawl food. There's even a pizza in there. 12:28:55 are komodo dragons cool then? 12:28:57 yes 12:28:59 or gila monsters, whichever 12:29:04 //Sanity check: if a monster is 'really' natural, don't consider it impure. 12:29:07 if (mons_intel(mon) < I_NORMAL && (holiness == MH_NATURAL || holiness == MH_PLANT) 12:29:10 && mon->type != MONS_UGLY_THING && mon->type != MONS_UGLY_THING && mon->type != MONS_DEATH_DRAKE) 12:29:13 eligibility[RECITE_IMPURE] = 0; 12:29:29 ugly things and death drakes, like komodo dragons, are natural animal intelligence creatures 12:29:44 (natural: it doesn't actually mean much when you stop and think about it) 12:30:28 -!- monky has joined ##crawl-dev 12:30:29 if zin's against spreading sickness and disease I don't think he should care if you're doing it naturally or not 12:30:45 but then zin is sort of conflicted between "form" and "catholic cleanliness/sin" to begin with 12:31:00 i think zin shouldn't want you eating the flesh of unclean animals but he probably shouldn't care enough to do anything to them or like it when you kill them 12:32:11 as a general rule he should only care about the stuff he cares about if it's A) an intelligent creature choosing to sin B) something unnatural C) both 12:34:16 I think it's mechanically better if he's just against all "sinners" and it works just as well with flavor 12:34:28 avoids people wondering why death drakes etc are cool 12:35:17 i think it's a pretty simple rule: 'does not care about natural beasts' 12:35:31 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 12:35:35 there are only a handful of monsters this applies to anyways 12:35:51 also don't think that "form" would supercede "sin" here but I might be repeating myself 12:35:52 yes 12:35:59 komodo dragons, mosquitos, leeches, death drakes, ugly things are iirc the only natural things with such attacks 12:37:14 -!- Kurper has joined ##crawl-dev 12:37:24 ugly things are included under chaotic though, right? 12:37:47 yes 12:37:47 yes but they can also be impure because purple ones sick / rot 12:38:01 oh I guess this matters with your specific recitations 12:38:44 the existing zin behaviors have a weird split 12:38:49 is_chaotic actually means is_innately_chaotic 12:38:56 is_unclean is 'unclean, or chaotic but not innately chaotic' 12:39:31 mine splits them more naturally so that priests of chaotic gods don't end up classified as unclean but not chaotic 12:39:52 it also adds some new uncleanliness conducts (vampiricism, eating corpses) 12:40:11 -!- Keskitalo has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:40:52 what chaotic priests are there besides dissolution? 12:42:54 OG17: royal jelly isn't a priest but is a worshiper of jiyva, i think 12:43:07 // Angels (other than Mennas) and Daevas belong to TSO, but 1 out of 12:43:08 // 7 in the Abyss are adopted by Xom. 12:43:19 // 6 out of 7 demons in the Abyss belong to Lugonu. 12:43:23 weird!!! 12:43:34 xom can summon angels and daevas too 12:43:52 also 1 out of 7 orcs are atheists 12:44:47 all jellies are worshippers of jiyva sort of, not sure how that's actually supposed to work 12:46:43 OG17: you can have a god without being a priest 12:47:19 is it just dissolution then? 12:47:24 i think so 12:47:47 dis = priest + jiyva; trj = not priest, jiyva; jellies = neither 12:47:59 except i think if you worship jiyva they get converted 12:48:03 or if you get gifted by jiyva 12:48:36 yep 12:48:39 mons_make_god_gift(slime, GOD_JIYVA); 12:48:46 in jiyva_convert_slime 12:49:00 which is pretty flavorful i guess! 12:50:04 I'd think they'd be followers regardless of what you're doing though I guess it's all hidden anyway 12:50:18 jellies aren't chaotic in any sense, are they? 12:50:25 as in formless 12:54:41 -!- eith has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:56:08 right now i'm not handling formlessness as part of either chaoticness or uncleanliness 12:56:48 as for jiyva: i guess the idea is that since jiyva is a mostly dead god, only a few slimes follow it, unless the player decides to convert and spread the ooziness 12:57:35 maybe jellies spawned alongside jiyva altars should be god=jiyva though 12:57:41 in the dungeon ones, and on slime 6 12:59:19 I thought the idea was that normal jellies are too dumb/unimportant enough to keep jiyva going 12:59:31 but that's all really hazy to begin with 13:18:59 03galehar * re27ffd12eb27 10/crawl-ref/source/ (spl-book.cc spl-util.cc spl-util.h): Don't destroy the spellbook if forgetting the spell failed 13:19:00 03galehar * r3b5b081490dc 10/crawl-ref/source/spl-util.cc: Fix forget from book 13:19:02 03galehar * r0651fb252e61 10/crawl-ref/source/skills2.cc: Add 2 asserts to transfer_skill_points() 13:22:45 -!- Pseudonut has joined ##crawl-dev 13:57:52 -!- TGWi has joined ##crawl-dev 14:01:40 -!- Pseudonut has quit [Quit: Computer went to sleep] 14:06:30 ??bug 14:06:31 bug[1/2]: To report bugs, go to: http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/main_page.php 14:07:26 -!- Textmode has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:10:44 Meaningless/wrong corrosion resistance indicator for artifacts (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2858) by kurper 14:15:10 Eronarn: you mentioned corona and forgot about haste/slowing? 14:15:32 how slowed monsters can just cast haste twice and be like "what's a slow" 14:24:24 -!- Pseudonut has joined ##crawl-dev 14:29:11 -!- Noom has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:32:55 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 14:33:05 -!- elliptic has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:35:23 -!- Pseudonut has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:36:32 TGWi: that could maybe use look at too yes 14:36:57 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 14:40:38 corona is particularly bad though, it wears off of invisible monsters in like 3 turns 14:40:43 if they don't cast invis first 14:51:23 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 14:56:11 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 14:57:39 evenings 14:59:20 hi 14:59:51 -!- syllogism has quit [] 15:13:49 airman (L27 MuAE) ASSERT(slot != NUM_MONSTER_SLOTS) in 'mon-act.cc' at line 1379 failed. (Zig:23) 15:15:51 autoexplore opens the zoo vault with all the bears and wolves and griffontypes inside; zoo vault should probably use a warning-scrawled gate or somesuch 15:17:27 I agree. Would you file that? If there are more vaults like this, please mention them too :) 15:26:22 -!- upsy has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:28:01 galehar: do you have a moment? 15:28:23 monky: thank you! 15:30:59 dpeg: sure 15:31:08 what about? 15:31:12 autoexplore opens lemuel_bear_cage (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2859) by MrMisterMonkey 15:36:14 galehar: My sister implemented the advanced . feature for my birthday... which was awesome (it was one of the last bits she did for Crawl... although she expressed her love for the gold god just this weekend). 15:36:35 But there is some polish missing. It's not much, yet I cannot do it on my own (I looked into it). 15:37:02 what is it? 15:37:26 and happy birthday! :) 15:37:36 oh, it was in April :) 15:37:42 lol 15:37:45 -!- valrus_ has joined ##crawl-dev 15:38:26 The . feature was invented by zelgadis (Matthew): when you (de)select in pickup/drop mode, you can press '.' to select the next one. This is awesome for non-touch typers like me who don't have to look at the keyboard all the time anymore. 15:39:07 It saves quite a bit of keyboard-screen focus switching. But it could be improved upon by having another key that moves the (invisible) cursor one line lower without selection. 15:39:33 it alreaday has: ' 15:39:35 In fact, Johanna coded this one, it's on ' now. (On standard US keyboards, ' and . are next to each other, I think.) 15:39:57 yeah, I use this featue 15:40:06 Yes. What remains is the question of the cursor: Johanna coded one, and it was on by default. Of course, many players didn't like it, and Robert disabled it again. 15:40:22 ok, I remember that 15:40:38 All of this is very clumsy, and the best solution occurred to me only much later: we disable the cursor by default, but whenever the player uses one of the ' or . commands, we show it immediately. 15:40:52 galehar: Could you? :) 15:40:54 hmm, clever 15:41:03 sure 15:41:10 I tried, but Crawl's code is just too complex for my little brain. 15:41:31 I'll see if it can be done easily (and thus quickly) 15:42:07 dpeg: hey, I suggested that when it was implemented it :( 15:42:14 I'm currently working on the skill menu rewrite, and my brain sweats! 15:42:22 galehar: I feel with you. 15:42:23 s/implemented it/implemented/ 15:42:33 TGWi: sorry if I didn't see that back then. 15:42:50 although, it's better than when I tried the crosstrain as aptitude and my brain bleed :/ 15:42:53 It's also very well possible that I subconsciously made your idea my own... that happened a couple of times already. 15:42:59 galehar: :) 15:43:00 :) 15:48:02 funny, the . and ' keys work, even without the cursor :) 15:48:40 yes, they work well 15:48:54 but it would be better if the cursor auto-magically switched on :) 15:49:02 of course 15:49:11 crawl 1.0 will have a telepathic cursor 15:49:17 after that, we could probably dispense with the option 15:49:18 everything should be automagic 15:50:57 TGWi: if the player is just too incompetent, the game just become more and more impatient and finally state: "You suck. Let me do it." and take over control of the @. 15:51:48 I sometimes wish we would release a major version and the whole changelog would be: "Removed 82 options." 15:51:55 lol 15:53:49 ??options 15:53:50 options[1/1]: http://crawl.akrasiac.org/docs/options_guide.txt 15:54:06 there are some I've never seen but I'm sure they have faithful users 15:54:13 stuff like pickup order 15:55:44 TGWi: _every_ option has dedicated users... who'll state without blinking that "they'll revert to version 0.7.1 if option XXX is touched". 15:56:12 heh 15:57:43 weapon =, book =, wand =, chaos_knight =, priest =, species =, background =, random_pick =, and good_random = seem really ridiculous to me 15:59:22 yes, I think I agree 15:59:30 although these are probably the oldest options we have 15:59:41 This is code typed by Linley himself. Don't touch! 16:10:09 !seen bhaak 16:10:09 I last saw bhaak at Mon Nov 22 11:27:15 2010 UTC (10h 42m 54s ago) saying swell, I can live out my pyromaniacal desires on ##crawl-dev. 16:14:16 !tell bhaak What's going on with devnull? Is the tournament alive? 16:14:17 dpeg: OK, I'll let bhaak know. 16:14:50 -!- Giomancer has joined ##crawl-dev 16:22:28 dpeg: it's running, seems a second tournament died/crashed/whatever. the european server died early on. 16:22:28 bhaak: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 16:22:32 !messages 16:22:33 (1/1) dpeg said (8m 17s ago): What's going on with devnull? Is the tournament alive? 16:23:06 I don't do well. I haven't even finished ZAPM yet. New version seems to have killed my skills 16:23:24 -!- Giomancer has quit [Quit: On the other hand, you have different fingers.] 16:24:04 bhaak: so it's only the webpage that is broken? 16:24:26 dpeg: http://nethack.devnull.net/ ? works for me 16:25:03 dpeg: the route to the server broke. it's back up now 16:25:19 I see 16:25:34 Is that equivalent to CAO passing out during the Crawl tournament? 16:25:52 ah, didn't get that 16:26:21 that's what happen with new software that didn't have the time to get properly tested and debugged... 16:26:23 dpeg no, because it wasn't devnull's fault, which is quite surprising 16:26:28 :) 16:27:33 galehar: yes, I am very glad with the way Darshan runs our tournament. 16:28:02 you mean, an actual freeze and bug testing beforehand. Like in any sane software project? 16:28:13 we'll see what happens next year 16:28:24 * galehar goes back to implementing new bugs in crawl 16:28:34 freezes may be hated by some people, but they _work_ 16:29:03 yes, the debian folks know a bit about that ;) 16:51:25 dpeg: artefact description states that they "cannot be changed by magic or mundane means". Does that imply corrosion immunity, or should I add a line about that? 16:53:33 'cannot be damaged or modified, whether by' 16:54:10 that's good 17:02:38 except that it makes an 87 char line which wraps at the last word. 17:04:22 I'd say "changed" already includes that. 17:04:24 galehar: immunity 17:04:44 oh, sorry 17:05:01 +1 to kilo 17:05:29 ok, so I just skip the corrosion description for artefact then 17:07:47 03galehar * rf8933e099c3d 10/crawl-ref/ (7 files in 3 dirs): Replace the menu_cursor option by automagic 17:07:49 03galehar * rd5e224dee845 10/crawl-ref/source/describe.cc: Remove corrosion resistance from artefact description 17:08:24 galehar: <3 17:08:33 :) 17:11:26 do rings of rFoo autoidentify? 17:12:53 no 17:14:43 galehar: it's now more like a Christmas present, but I won't complain :) 17:14:59 sure :) 17:15:52 galehar: I looked at your commit -- is it true that the line + InvEntry::set_show_cursor(true); 17:16:05 is the one enabling the cursor after ' or . being pressed? 17:16:12 yes 17:16:19 (there are two such lines, one for each command) 17:16:28 exactly 17:16:40 I see, you replaced the explicit option by an implicit one? 17:16:44 -!- lorimer has quit [Quit: usb bus borked. brb] 17:17:16 galehar: if you use ./' once, then leave the drop menu and open a new one -- is the cursor visible right from the start? 17:17:24 I got rid of the option and replaced it by a static boolean in InvEntry (which is just a shame global variable) 17:17:38 no, it won't be 17:17:47 it is cleared in the InvMenu constuctor 17:18:17 * dpeg goes back to designing gods. 17:18:22 :) 17:21:02 -!- lorimer has joined ##crawl-dev 17:44:19 03dolorous * r15cfe32f0964 10/crawl-ref/source/spl-book.cc: Add missing periods. 18:10:25 -!- galehar has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.12/20101026210630]] 19:24:04 -!- Mu_ has quit [Quit: Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place.] 19:47:40 Malign Gateways can be opened through walls with scrying (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2860) by MarvintheParanoidAndroid 19:52:23 MarvinPA is insane... he is looking for bugs in places nobody else would touch :) 19:52:40 dpeg: Tentacle Hentai Land? 19:52:48 i already abused that in a game before, and then found it wasn't fixed when the rest of the scrying issues were :P 19:53:02 due: Well, I guess many adolescents would want to look there :) 19:53:03 MarvinPA: Yeah, malign gateway uses custom location code. 19:53:22 MarvinPA: many thanks for MAntis activity! 19:53:26 it's pretty cool the way it needs an open space, though 19:53:32 no problem :) 19:53:47 MarvinPA: I think that's the only input from me on the spell =) 20:32:47 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:43:54 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 21:23:31 -!- elliptic has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.10/20100914125854]] 21:26:49 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 21:30:38 -!- Pacra_ has joined ##crawl-dev 21:33:18 -!- Pacra__ has joined ##crawl-dev 21:33:50 -!- Pacra has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:36:20 -!- Pacra_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:41:06 How good is an eveningstar? 21:41:16 Worth switching to M&F? (Ash here.) 21:43:05 good, but not as good as a demon whip, which is far more common 21:44:06 also found a demon whip of flaming... 21:44:24 but eveningstars are so rare and I like the name a lot 21:45:09 they're cute 21:46:42 -!- Pacra__ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:47:23 -!- Pacra__ has joined ##crawl-dev 22:00:23 -!- Pacra_ has joined ##crawl-dev 22:03:00 -!- Pacra__ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:07:35 -!- herself has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:25:19 -!- hashc has joined ##crawl-dev 22:28:45 -!- Textmode has quit [Quit: Over the ages, man has been certain of a great many things. some of these things were even true.] 22:41:15 I think zot:5 should only have one vault 22:41:44 are you complaining about orb chamber variance? :( 22:41:51 I get the anti-apportation thing, but it seems cool that it's one of the few static parts of the game; should pick one and keep it 22:45:29 -!- enne has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:53:05 TGWi: Zot:5 is also variable in the monster sets. 22:53:26 that's fine, I mean the geography of it 22:54:32 yes, I know 22:55:02 I think I'd like it if the orb vault changes were a bit ... subtler than now. 22:56:35 anyway, sleep 22:56:37 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: zzz] 22:57:00 did he just go to bed at 5 AM 23:00:06 whose time? 23:01:45 he appears to have connected by way of poland 23:09:41 -!- enne has joined ##crawl-dev 23:14:18 -!- enne has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:14:31 -!- TGWi has left ##crawl-dev 23:19:28 -!- herself has joined ##crawl-dev 23:21:57 -!- valrus_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:25:43 -!- gamefreak264 has joined ##crawl-dev 23:56:59 -!- Noom has joined ##crawl-dev