00:01:50 -!- eith has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:20:20 -!- greensnark has joined ##crawl-dev 00:28:22 -!- TGWi has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:38:28 hello greensnark 00:38:41 Hi 00:41:52 moin! 00:41:52 Napkin: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them. 00:42:54 greensnark: Eronarn is making patches now. Are you scared yet? 00:43:01 ohoooh... explaining what a script does and how to use it will take like ages, when setting up a new server :-O 00:43:20 No :P 00:43:27 !coffee Napkin 00:43:28 * Henzell hands Napkin a pot of irish coffee, brewed by Ijyb. 00:43:38 exactly what I need :D 00:43:42 !coffee 00:43:43 * Henzell hands Napkin a cup of café au lait, brewed by Crazy Yiuf. 00:44:07 Napkin: would it be faster to just have you set up the server to pull an alternate branch? (i could probably maintain the branch, if it can use an automated build process like now) 00:44:44 since it would mainly be master + random weird patches people want to test 00:45:00 of course it would be.. but then i would have to maintain two instances ;) 00:45:32 give me some time to get used to the idea ;) 00:45:42 very busy weekend ahead for me anyways 00:45:54 oh, hey greensnark? 00:46:08 -!- valrus_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:46:27 what locale are you running on your system? 00:46:53 en_US.UTF-8 00:46:58 i need someone running a non-utf8 locale start a game on CDO via ssh 00:47:04 pity! 00:47:52 kilobyte did a change to respect the locale of the user instead of enforcing en_US.UTF-8 00:47:53 * greensnark is playing Unnethack 00:48:12 and i have AcceptEnv LANG LC_* in sshd_config 00:48:31 hehe 00:49:03 oooh 00:49:06 how does that work 00:49:26 I have a ssh game server which requires you to unset LANG before sshing 00:49:47 because otherwise it complains loudly about not having en_US.UTF8 avaiable :/ 00:49:50 i am curious too 00:50:24 in the chroot you mean? I added the locale-archive from /usr/lib/locale 00:50:34 and locale.alias from /etc/ 00:51:38 to make crawl happy about enforcing en_US.UTF-8... 00:52:05 but now, that it checks the user's environment.. and locale-archive of course doesn't have all locales.. 00:53:16 i put export LANG&LC_CTYPE into the crawl-svn version-chooser script for now... hope it works 01:01:01 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 01:01:29 whew, only need 5 more 01:02:59 -!- MarvinPA|2 has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:08:40 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:08:43 Napkin: thanks, AcceptEnv was exactly the tip we needed, no more ugly perl: warning: Falling back to the standard locale ("C"). on ancardia.dyndns.org 01:08:59 awesome :) 01:55:59 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 01:59:11 mkay, that's enough zin for tonight 01:59:16 think i can finish it tomorrow though 02:43:09 -!- Pseudonut has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:50:33 -!- elliptic has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:58:32 -!- monky has quit [Quit: hello] 03:15:40 -!- Kurper has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:48:51 -!- felirx_ has joined ##crawl-dev 03:51:10 -!- felirx has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:56:27 -!- felirx_ is now known as felirx 03:58:25 -!- bmh has joined ##crawl-dev 03:58:25 -!- bmh has quit [Changing host] 03:58:25 -!- bmh has joined ##crawl-dev 03:58:58 Morning 04:01:21 felrix, bmh: meow! 04:01:32 not really here, hiding! 04:01:35 Hi Adam 04:02:08 I'm guessing that no one has declined relicensing? 04:02:21 greensnark: great to see you. Could you please add a quiet milestone to Henzell? (Is there a person other than you and rax who messes with Henzell?) 04:02:49 bmh: no one, but some didn't answer, and there's a load of people in CREDITS.txt without an address anywhere 04:02:58 kilobyte: quiet milestone? 04:03:35 I mean, one that is logged but doesn't spam ##crawl 04:03:35 kilobyte: I maintain Henzell, but pull requests on https://github.com/greensnark/dcss_henzell or patches are welcome 04:03:53 kilobyte: Sure, just let me know the milestone type 04:04:15 felids losing lives is certainly something we'd want to know, but a bit too frequent to announce 04:04:20 Kilobyte: I have contact info for one guy in CREDITS (his name eludes me) - I'll forward your e-mail 04:06:31 greensnark: what name would you suggest? Is "death" taken? 04:06:43 death is not taken 04:07:02 Maybe we could add an extra key quiet=y to the xlog record for quiet milestones 04:07:12 I'm guessing that players have won perfect games with felids? 04:07:22 That way we wouldn't have to keep updating the bots for new milestones that are logged and not announced 04:07:37 there's no killer=X and stuff in milestones, I guess 04:07:44 kilobyte: Right 04:08:03 bmh: I don't know any, but that would require manually reading all morgues 04:08:09 -!- bmh is now known as bmh_ 04:09:13 so we can do just "annihilated by Teh Rabbit of Caerbannog" but not parseable info 04:11:24 do we need to include the milestone name in the human-readable description 04:12:15 -!- bmh_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:13:10 I mean, the next line to where I'd put the milestone does a note for the dump, but it has just "Engulfed by a cloud of freezing vapour" (when I Freezing Clouded Mennas, him at near death, me at 4 hp) or "Slain by an orc warlord" 04:13:15 -!- bmh has joined ##crawl-dev 04:13:40 and, an epic accomplishment, "Killed by miscasting Alter Self" 04:19:15 even better 04:19:25 casting alter self in lair, having a rat spawn and kill you 04:19:33 felirx: <3 04:21:27 03kilobyte * re1c98f199762 10/crawl-ref/source/ouch.cc: Felids: mark milestones of your non-final splats. 04:25:15 are these real splats? 04:25:56 as in "deaths", not in Henzell's sense 04:26:24 sadly, just the death's description, nothing more 04:27:13 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 04:28:00 -!- Henzell has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:28:44 -!- Henzell has joined ##crawl-dev 04:29:00 -!- Gretell has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:29:14 -!- Gretell has joined ##crawl-dev 04:30:00 kilobyte: Does the death description go in the right field? 04:30:10 The bots expect a 'milestone' field with the full description 04:30:21 If it goes into the tmsg/vmsg field they won't recognise it 04:30:33 -!- bmh has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:33:36 greensnark: mark_milestone("death", "the string that was put into notes"); 04:33:48 Ok, cool 04:34:03 When does CDO update these days 04:34:22 It's on a cron update now, right? 04:35:22 bi-weekly, but we can do it by hand whenever we want 05:12:49 what do you think about moving lightning bolt into the book of air? Sky was already pretty bloated and hardly anyone uses that spell when the other option is airstrike 05:21:47 it would be a large improvement, there's no usable damage spell in that book other than Shock 05:23:38 heck, on my current AE, I had to do everything by hand (claw and tooth actually) being mostly an UC reaver until using a scroll of acquirement for a book that had Freezing Cloud late Lair which I could use instantly with Ash's reskilling 05:25:06 lightning bolt is mostly meh outside of corridor corners, yeah 05:30:15 -!- bmh has joined ##crawl-dev 05:32:22 -!- Pseudonut has joined ##crawl-dev 05:46:36 -!- Pseudonut has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:51:09 do you think the book of demonology needs a more general name now? 06:09:28 We should use a term to denote the proportion of demons in books like "proof" for alcohol 06:09:42 I nominate "Mu" as the term for percentage of demonic spells 06:11:13 unfortunately 'Mu' is already associated with undead for the players, might be confusing :P 06:11:45 I think that's exactly the idea 06:11:57 Given that demonology had undead spells injected into it :P 06:12:27 seems like a solid argument! :p 06:12:39 Totally 06:16:03 joosa: Is rhf down 06:22:32 greensnark do you have any idea why the prisoners in the cigotuvi wizlab don't speak on CDO 06:22:43 Only on CDO? 06:23:12 yes, when people play trunk on CDO. but locally they speak fine. 06:23:35 Did someone split the speech files or something 06:23:52 i think it's still just monspeak, and due checked that and said it was ok. 06:24:01 Interesting 06:25:39 i don't know if there are other places where speech isn't firing, that's just the one i've been paying attention to. 06:26:48 -!- bmh has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:26:51 Yeah, works locally for me too 06:27:05 Does any speech at all work on CDO? 06:27:16 Or is it only Cigotuvi that has the issue 06:27:24 Demonology has just Haunt, and it was added there a couple of days ago for no obvious reason 06:27:34 i am sure that uniques are still speaking. 06:31:25 Yeah, Haunt going to Demonology really confused me :) 06:31:49 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:32:01 it has malign gateway and horrible things also i think which aren't strictly demonic 06:32:02 the commit doesn't even state why this was done 06:32:09 the book is really bad 06:32:43 I think we could tweak summon greater demons to not suck 06:33:04 Yeah, Demonology always sucked 06:33:16 But putting Haunt in there pretty much forces the use of the Mu scale :P 06:33:25 Mu_: demonic tentacle is, well, demonic, and tentacled monstrosities are such as well 06:33:50 Yeah, the things produced by XXX are supposed to be demonic 06:33:58 it's not a demonic tentacle any more, it's eldritch :P 06:34:17 Sounds like a very Pratchettish tentacle :P 06:34:23 "It bodes." 06:34:25 so suddenly Cthulhu is not a demon (-god)? 06:35:30 he's something not easily defined :P 06:35:47 aboms are kind of odd because there are places where they're demonic and others where they're undead 06:36:04 Aboms are supposed to exist in demonic and undead flavours 06:36:21 So twisted resurrection would produce undead aboms, XXX would produce demonic aboms 06:36:35 And you distinguish by seeing if dispel undead works :P 06:36:40 :p 06:37:02 Brent apparently spent a lot of time in 4.1 trying to get abom flavour correct 06:37:06 you could probably colour split them 06:37:09 Wasted time, I say 06:37:22 Yeah, colour split or just use two different creature types 06:37:58 I see nothing broken on CDO :P 06:38:10 !lm * cdo place=wizlab 06:38:10 352. [2010-11-13] Predelnik the Brawler (L16 TrBe) entered The Chambers of Fadyddom the Cloud Mage on turn 33855. (Vault:4) 06:38:16 Fadyddom <3 06:38:24 !lm * cdo place=wizlab milestone=~Cigotuvi 06:38:24 50. [2010-11-09] hyperbolic the Blackguard (L13 SpEn) entered Cigotuvi's Fleshworks on turn 11186. (Vault:7) 06:38:27 i just watched that one 06:38:36 hyperbolic? 06:38:38 but he leaves immediately and now i've forgotten how to stop it playing 06:38:39 yep 06:38:42 :p 06:38:53 I wonder why he left immediately :P 06:39:00 !lm * cdo place=wizlab milestone=~Cigotuvi -tv:<0:>$ 06:39:01 50. hyperbolic, XL13 SpEn, T:11186 (milestone) requested for FooTV. 06:39:06 looks like a speedrun 06:39:29 probably hoped for some quick loot 06:39:31 Oh right 06:39:40 !lm * cdo place=wizlab milestone=~Cigotuvi -tv:cancel 06:39:41 50. hyperbolic, XL13 SpEn, T:11186 (milestone) cancel requested for FooTV. 06:39:56 !lm * cdo place=wizlab milestone=~Cigotuvi -2 06:39:56 49. [2010-11-01] noom the Eclecticist (L17 MDWz) entered Cigotuvi's Fleshworks on turn 57091. (Elf:5) 06:40:04 !lm * cdo place=wizlab milestone=~Cigotuvi -2 -tv:<0:>$ 06:40:04 49. noom, XL17 MDWz, T:57091 (milestone) requested for FooTV. 06:40:37 Ah, I see what you mean 06:40:46 "twisted human shouts" is kind of broken :) 06:40:49 not that 06:40:56 although that too 06:40:58 :P 06:41:04 they shout, they don't have their speech though 06:41:05 !lm * cdo place=wizlab milestone=~Cigotuvi -2 x=v 06:41:05 49. [2010-11-01] [v=0.8.0-a0] noom the Eclecticist (L17 MDWz) entered Cigotuvi's Fleshworks on turn 57091. (Elf:5) 06:41:22 that's been broken for a while 06:41:28 Hmm, we don't have version SHA in there somewhere? 06:41:30 the missing articles 06:41:54 you can see they aren't saying their actual speech though, i'm not crazy 06:41:55 :P 06:42:12 Well, "twisted human shouts" suggests that the speech key was tossed 06:42:23 ah i didn't realise 06:43:00 Why it happens only on CDO is not clear 06:43:19 !lm * cdo place=wizlab milestone=~Cigotuvi -2 x=rtime 06:43:19 49. [2010-11-01] [rtime=20101001150949S] noom the Eclecticist (L17 MDWz) entered Cigotuvi's Fleshworks on turn 57091. (Elf:5) 06:43:25 !lm * cdo place=wizlab milestone=~Cigotuvi -2 -tv:cancel 06:43:25 49. noom, XL17 MDWz, T:57091 (milestone) cancel requested for FooTV. 06:44:29 i think it might work correctly on CDO stable version, i don't remember though 06:45:03 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 06:45:17 mons_speaks is altogether too long 06:45:25 Hey it's the lobster from the gates of Angband 06:46:49 !coffee everyone 06:46:50 * Henzell hands everyone a cup of irish coffee, brewed by Ijyb. 06:48:24 :) 06:50:25 Someone needs to rewrite the speech lookup code 06:52:07 There's a _try_exact_string that calls a __try_exact_string that does some perfectly ridiculous prefix matching 06:52:43 And then there are nested loops to do combinations of prefixes taken 3 at a time and 2 at a time 06:55:41 greensnark: is that code by Johanna or older? 06:56:05 It's jpeg + zelgadis, don't know who obfuscated it 06:56:13 I think due was involved too :P 06:56:37 greensnark: the database was tiny when they started :) 06:57:01 Monster speech was hardcoded when they started, yes 06:57:39 !tell Cryp71c DS mutation bone plates gives +X AC, +X SH. Isn't the latter negligible after the SH modification (it works the same but sorear inflated the numbers to be comparable with AC and EV). 06:57:40 dpeg: OK, I'll let Cryp71c know. 07:01:57 You know what's cool? If you catch both the sewer and the ossuary on a level :) 07:02:09 Can you actually get to them both 07:02:56 I just did 07:03:29 a sewer map that features a winding sewer that has breached an ossuary would be cool :P could switch the starting location and make an ossuary map too :P 07:04:05 Mu_: I see creativity is coming back :) 07:04:11 haha :) 07:07:07 The Cigotuvi speech is not the in the sqlite db on CDO 07:07:56 At least as of a2e8e47 07:08:25 does that mean you can fix it :P 07:08:38 Er, as of 1e58f13 07:08:46 No idea what's causing it to hide :P 07:09:02 It is in trunk, right? 07:10:03 The speech key is in the monspeak.txt file, but it hasn't been loaded into the sqlite db 07:10:17 Oh wait, it's lowercased 07:10:40 No idea, then :P 07:11:13 Hmm: "monster speech lookup for Cigotuvi_creatures" 07:11:45 Well, that's lowercased 07:14:30 Heh '@The_monster@ wails, "So itchy! Itchy, itchy, itchy! Always itchy!"' 07:14:36 That sounds like due's work :P 07:14:43 yes :) 07:14:50 Now we know what due feels like. 07:15:15 tss, it's mine :P 07:15:32 Are you sure you're not due in digsuise 07:15:39 *disguise 07:15:57 unlike demonology i am 100% Mu :P 07:16:02 Haha 07:17:53 Truth to be told, I wrote it after kilobyte sent a half-tame cat to my house. 07:18:14 Ah, the cat allergy emerges 07:18:59 I guess I could build a local crawl on CDO and see if it has the same problem 07:19:05 But I bet it'll work magically :P 07:19:28 this has been broken on CDO for months btw :3 07:20:18 Is the "twisted human" without the "The" fixed? 07:20:41 i don't think so 07:21:06 Because that also seems fixed locally 07:21:15 oh apparently you're right 07:21:24 working locally for me too now 07:22:02 Maybe someone also fixed the Cigotuvi speech :P 07:22:08 Just need to get to a wizlab and check :P 07:23:04 yeah it's hard to know if it's still broken or not 07:23:07 on cdo 07:23:40 Tornado in Shoals makes it really easy to drown... I'm damn unhappy about clouds covering everything 07:24:25 Tornado effect could be applied like a brand, but that'll mess with other brands 07:24:57 Or maybe change tornado effect colours over water or something 07:25:08 Cigotuvi works locally for me on Linux amd64, so this is not a platform issue 07:25:27 Possibly something fixed Cigotuvi recently 07:25:47 Given that the "twisted human shouts" problem was also apprently fixed recently 07:25:54 greensnark: might make sense. Instead of gray/white, it can be blue/lightblue above water and red/lightred above lava. 07:26:19 If it uses the standard cloud symbols that'll cause confusion with other clouds, though :) 07:27:20 well the speech has always fired locally for me even though it never has on cdo, but if it is actually fixed then sorry i wasted your time :P 07:27:44 kilobyte: we could change the tile for water, indicating spray or something 07:28:02 Mu_: I'll just deface your entry in the devteam wiki page to make up for it :P 07:28:12 I see there's a long thread about the devteam page for some reason :P 07:29:23 haha 07:29:52 greensnark: vanity and preparing for the stampede of the groupies 07:30:54 Ok, Mu entry added 07:31:14 The new rule for the devteam page is that people are not allowed to edit their own entries: https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:help:devteam 07:31:29 lol 07:31:46 greensnark: for example, I can't edit my own one. I was unable to figure out when I got forced into submission. Feels like 1972. 07:31:54 thank you greensnark :P 07:32:26 and when were you born? Aren't you the same age as me, ie 1978? 07:32:44 -!- paggas has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:33:33 kilobyte: born two years earlier than you 07:33:51 -!- dpeg is now known as dpegran 07:34:35 * kilobyte hands dpeg a cane. 07:34:47 03kilobyte * r35a120368bdd 10/crawl-ref/source/ng-restr.cc: Felids: adjust recommended backgrounds. 07:34:48 03kilobyte * rd3e9afd1d94c 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/descript/spells.txt: Tornado: add a description. 07:34:51 03kilobyte * reb8645b7faed 10/crawl-ref/source/spl-damage.cc: Tornado: try to visualize regions where the power is very low. 07:34:52 03kilobyte * r7d16f1f13716 10/crawl-ref/source/spl-damage.cc: Tornado: in debug mode, mention the damage done. 07:34:53 03kilobyte * r3fbd435d3816 10/crawl-ref/source/colour.cc: Tornado: show lava/water underneath by recoloring the clouds. 07:35:44 greensnark: <3 Mu's description on the wiki 07:35:58 :) 07:37:01 heh, my vault works 07:37:03 ??spriggan druid 07:37:04 spriggan druid[1/1]: A stupid monster in a stupid vault UGH 07:37:17 sadly it's much deeper in 0.8 :( 07:38:37 who wrote that entry 07:39:02 greensnark: we don't track this yet :) 07:39:17 Pacra, apparently 07:39:26 dpegran: That's what IRC logs are for :P 07:39:41 !lg Pacra killer=spriggan druid 07:39:41 1. Pacra the Grappler (L11 TrSu), worshipper of Kikubaaqudgha, blasted by a spriggan druid (ray of light) on Lair:3 (kilobyte rumbling trees) on 2010-09-24, with 13319 points after 22056 turns and 1:07:50. 07:39:44 Haha 07:57:00 kilobyte: when Ash auto-identifies armour, can we get the enchantment just as well? 07:59:01 dpegran: currently, this requires wearing a cursed piece of the same kind 08:01:17 if we scrap this requirement, we could as well identify all seen items on all dungeon levels the moment you hit that piety threshold 08:01:25 yes, I was aware of that 08:01:31 I guess status quo is ok 08:01:47 if you're interested in an item after knowing the intrinsice, you've got to wear it 08:02:12 kilobyte: btw, I think that identify could be extended to items you just carry (potions, scrolls, wands), but that's just a little polish for later. 08:02:35 I mean, having to pick items up leads to running to all glowing items when you get something cursed 08:03:27 yes, that's where my proposal came from :) 08:04:45 I guess we'll wait and think some more. 08:13:29 multiple people voiced their annoyance of having to pick stuff up, so identifying everything isn't that bad an idea 08:13:57 doing that retroactively for that robe you have seen D:1 is just an extension of that 08:20:24 dpegran: I have updated the dev page extensively :P 08:20:38 Including a few salient facts about one cat allergic person who shall go nameless 08:21:51 greensnark: It is tragic that Crawl fans all over the world think the allergy is a joke and keep sending cats. 08:23:01 !tell Cryp71c Just got DS guardian level 3 on D:10, XL 11. That's too early, I assume :) Either we make sure the higher guardians come later, or we scale the guardians to depth. 08:23:02 dpegran: OK, I'll let Cryp71c know. 08:32:19 -!- TGWi has joined ##crawl-dev 08:32:39 hi 08:33:32 yHi 08:35:08 -!- TGWi has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:35:31 -!- TGWi has joined ##crawl-dev 08:36:05 03dolorous * r14b2efa3c2be 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/descript/spells.txt: Tweak wording. 08:41:34 -!- TGWi has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:41:50 -!- TGWi has joined ##crawl-dev 08:50:53 !seen galehar 08:50:54 I last saw galehar at Sat Nov 13 00:03:22 2010 UTC (14h 47m 31s ago) quitting with message Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.12/20101026210630]. 08:51:18 wait, is tornado in? 08:51:21 TGWi: he's always around. 08:51:22 yes 08:51:27 nice 08:51:36 air 9? 09:39:45 dpegran: a problem with rotating stuff: if you can cast it near water/lava, any land-based monster will likely fall in -- since after every turn they would land 09:40:31 how big a problem is this? 09:41:47 a possible solution would be granting the monster temp levitation, but currently monsters don't have any temporary effect like this 09:41:55 "an air spell sometimes kills things:" tragic?? 09:42:16 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 09:45:35 well, with 16 skill, a ring of wizardry and 26 INT you get power 63, which does 23 damage per turn for 6 turns 09:46:26 (ring of wizardry doesn't affect power, but with 16 skill you need it to cast it reliably) 09:47:03 is it air 9? 09:47:33 8 09:48:21 kilobyte: then we need temporary levitation for monsters 09:48:47 actually, the damage could use a bump, since you'd use the spell in places where you cast firestorm every round 09:50:15 dpegran: it might be tempting to allow this as extra perk, but this would be abusable with fast actions 09:50:35 keep swapping weapons or attacking with a quick blade and you get several as many drowning attempts 09:54:01 is tornado on cdo? 09:54:25 no 09:54:30 aw 09:55:04 TGWi: it is, without a few cosmetic changes 09:55:28 i tried it locally yesterday i think, just when the swirly cloud patterns got added 09:55:40 they were pretty cool but it still looked a bit odd 09:55:47 kilobyte: oh, I assumed it wasn't because ?/s wasn't working 09:55:53 I saw the description was added later though 09:56:03 what books is it in? 09:56:07 sky? 09:56:12 sky, tempests, clouds 09:56:23 so now sky has like a million spells in it :P 09:56:24 oh, probably tempests 09:56:31 sky seriously has too many spells already 09:56:41 too many 09:56:48 move airstrike to air! 09:56:49 I added it there just for testing 09:56:52 eight fucking spells 09:57:05 also silence could probably move somewhere else 09:57:06 temporarily removing Summon Elemental since the cap is 7 09:57:31 how about permanently removing summon elemental? 09:57:33 but Sky is too low level a book to hold it 09:57:39 six is already a lot 09:57:42 TGWi: not a bad idea, I'd say 09:58:50 i still think the book of the air could lose meph and gain airstrike 09:59:06 yes 09:59:21 although i suppose there's no level 2 air spells so it'd be a pain keeping using shock until airstrike is castable and/or static discharge is buffed 10:00:30 shock is pretty stellar though 10:00:45 and meph isn't really an offensive spell anyway 10:00:53 well, this AE game I'm looking everywhere, acquiring books and such to get Airstrike and after doing D:27, V:7 and Elf:7, I still don't have it 10:01:16 yeah, the difficulty with AE is that you really need book gifts 10:01:21 since it is a spell with lots of utility all the game 10:01:34 either vehumet for the cloud spells or sif for airstrike 10:01:39 not because of good damage, but because of LOS range and smite targetting 10:01:56 I think tornado will help a lot, gives air a less inefficient source of neutral damage 10:02:05 it's kind of a must if you want to do the Hellion Isle for example 10:02:28 (why doesn't hellion isle have a rune) 10:02:38 ice storm > hellion isle :( 10:03:01 freezing cloud works too but yeah, it's such an absurdly nasty pan vault i'm surprised it has no rune 10:03:05 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 10:03:06 Tornado would for example be weak there since it has range 6 while there's 16 hellions hellfiring your ass 10:03:39 felirx: ice storm > * for the values of * != fire storm 10:04:02 -!- elliptic has quit [Client Quit] 10:04:09 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 10:04:29 one thing: doesn't air already have enough high level spells? they're just all terrible 10:05:01 6 coj/ice/air, 7 coj/air, 8 coj/air 10:05:51 i've never really given cbl a proper try 10:06:03 chain lightning is pretty painful though, yeah 10:14:16 (freezing cloud is actually awesome but it's high-ish level) 10:19:56 chain lightning is a bad joke, ball lightning is meh as well 10:20:07 freezing cloud indeed kicks ass 10:21:36 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 10:22:16 freezing cloud is good but can become obsolete like all mid level spells 10:26:02 03kilobyte * r0904294bef9b 10/crawl-ref/source/spl-damage.cc: Tornado: make pure meteorological monsters immune (ball lightning, air elemental). 10:26:21 even many skeletal undead have only rC+ so they die easily 10:26:27 the highest air book should be "book of Meteorology" 10:26:32 just cast it in a corridor and backpedal 10:26:51 and Balrugs... mmm... 10:27:06 TGWi: like, "Clouds"? 10:27:34 for the record, chain lightning is very good in elf and CBL is great on most zig levels 10:27:40 clouds only goes up to level 6 10:27:44 chain lightning is so not good in elf 10:27:52 i tried it and died horribly :/ 10:27:56 elliptic: everything is good in elf 10:27:58 with an awesome Air/Earth spell "Cumulogranite" 10:27:58 they still are underpowered for their level probably 10:28:10 there's an actual Wikipedia article for that... I love this word 10:28:11 marvinpa: how? it one-shots all elves in sight 10:28:16 did you use it without rElec 10:28:25 everything one-shots all elves in sight 10:28:30 (and elves out of sight) 10:28:36 i used it at too far a range and a master archer got me 10:28:36 tgwi: yeah, you have a point there 10:28:49 i didn't realise that it was useless at long range and cast it a couple of times and nothing happened 10:28:54 then it was too late and i was dead 10:29:04 at least everything that doesn't allow an EV save 10:29:50 busting through elf armed with fireball or ozo's refridge doesn't get old 10:29:58 new Agnes: 598572598725 EV, 0.00000001 hp 10:30:16 freezing cloud is certainly better than any of the non-ice air spells, though 10:30:27 isn't it the only ice air spell 10:30:34 probably 10:31:13 someone needs to add "antimagic dart" 10:31:20 (a dart brand) 10:31:33 is antimagic still hilariously broken? 10:31:55 I checked, it's the only one Air/Cold (/Conj). Poison has two, Fire none. 10:32:22 which is boggling, as most fire effects in RL are mostly air based 10:32:29 -!- valrus_ has joined ##crawl-dev 10:32:36 like, for example, RL fire storm 10:32:59 fire isn't allowed spells that aren't conj/fire though 10:33:02 :P 10:33:15 yeah seriously 10:33:30 MarvinPA: I didn't notice everyone using antimagic -- what's the problem with it? 10:33:53 well it's very rare and only good on high base-damage weapons so you probably need to be a berserker 10:34:08 and get it gifted from trog, but i did zot with an antimagic greatsword ages ago 10:34:17 and it works on electric golems and orbs of fire 10:34:23 ah, I thought you meant too powerful 10:35:12 i think it's pretty powerful too, i used it on ancient liches 10:35:47 but i had a great sword of speed which killed stuff quickly enough that it didn't really matter if it was casting at me 10:36:44 a - the +3,+1 great sword of Absolution (weapon) {god gift, speed, +Lev rF++ rN+ AC+5} 10:36:46 <3 10:37:14 -!- valrus_ has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:38:50 anyway it seems like a cool brand but i've never found it on a good weapon unless i'm worshipping trog 10:39:09 maybe it'd be good for crusader types to swap to after buffing up 11:21:30 -!- valrus_ has joined ##crawl-dev 11:22:33 MarvinPA: antimagic tempbrand <3 11:23:41 what's the purple star next to element apts? 11:26:24 http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/hyperbolic/crash-hyperbolic-20101113-172232.txt 11:26:35 crash happened as I died and wasn't announced here 11:29:04 elliptic: ouchie, eating an Ice storm with 46 maxhp 11:29:42 kilobyte: but I got the rune first! :) 11:30:00 if you want I can copysave from beginning of level, since crash resurrected the character 11:33:43 probably won't need it, but yeah, it can't hurt 11:34:19 http://crawl.develz.org/saves/dumps/hyperbolic-1e58f13-101113-1734.tar.bz2 11:35:14 thanks 11:36:23 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 11:50:14 f - a scroll labeled SHRAHA XUOLL {tried on wand of slowing {zapped: 1}} (2.0 aum) 11:50:17 this is seriously excessive 11:51:22 {zapped:1 {against an unseen enemy {on D:11 {while confused}}}} 11:54:14 can't it just say "tried on unidentified wand" or something 11:56:27 In a great set of silver scales are weighed the souls of the (heretics), and with thy (longprayertype), the balance hath tipped ?against thee?! So sayeth (Zin)! 11:56:45 "[un]identified wand," "[un]identified armour," "[un]identified item" 11:57:06 this is the only necessary thing 11:57:44 -!- henryci has joined ##crawl-dev 11:58:01 !seen arxale 11:58:02 I last saw Arxale at Sun Aug 29 10:57:51 2010 UTC (10w 6d 7h 11s ago) quitting with message Client Quit. 11:58:15 Is a logging infrastructure (dumping strings to a file) something worth checking in, or should I just keep that on my own branch? 11:58:16 for perspective, I've had the inscription cut off the item weight before 11:59:10 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:59:19 elliptic: did you have in your inventory before an artefact, possibly a cloak, ring of invisiblity or an eveningstar, with properties "+Inv Str-3 Int-5" (possibly more) 11:59:50 "tried on [un]identified [+N] armour" 11:59:55 kilobyte: I did get such a randart ring earlier, tried it on, dropped it somewhere unIDed 12:00:05 and if it wasn't tried on any of those categories (or an armour that's at the limit) just do "tried on item" 12:00:25 elliptic: yeah, it's obvious what's wrong then. Thanks! 12:00:33 -!- monky has joined ##crawl-dev 12:05:36 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 12:05:37 03kilobyte * r665e565de547 10/crawl-ref/source/ouch.cc: Fix a crash when autoinscribing items no longer in the inventory. 12:15:22 kilobyte: are you watching 78291 on cdo? 12:15:27 he's using tornado... seems nuts 12:15:30 yeah 12:15:40 the power is severely lower in normal levels, right? 12:16:12 of course... I wonder what is his Air skill 12:16:32 15 air lol 12:16:42 heh 12:18:52 it has around 1/3 of Firestorm's damage, but lasts like 6 turns 12:19:14 1/3 per turn? 12:19:32 i love that spiral effect kilobyte 12:19:36 per 10 aut 12:19:38 does tornado damage you? 12:19:40 well yeah 12:19:49 if you're hasted, it procs more often but doesn't do more damage 12:19:53 I'd try like 1/5... you can't spam it, but you can spam other things at the same time 12:20:09 and it hits everything with no chance of hitting you 12:20:20 I imagine it'd be crazy with makhleb 12:20:53 multi-turn buff that kills things and restores hp and mana while you can dish out even more damage in other ways 12:21:28 feels a lot like refrigeration actually 12:21:44 particularly on zigs, vs summoners, or tomb (with sufficient mummy protection like 2xsustab and necromutation or kiku or something) 12:25:01 WTF... refrigeration does about the same damage 12:25:18 -!- valrus_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:25:19 it also hits you and need to be spammed every turn 12:25:20 except in a bigger radius 12:25:56 yeah, but you tend to wear a ring of ice if you use it heavily 12:26:58 also it checks resistance 12:27:34 kilobyte: yeah, refrigeration is already really really good if you can deal with the self-damage and potion destruction 12:27:47 it's amazing 12:27:56 the self-damage is negligible with a bit of preparation, but loss of potions hurts 12:27:56 I've done zigs just using it 12:28:00 vault 8, tombs, zigs 12:28:04 all die to the might of refridge 12:28:07 loss of potions isn't bad with conservation 12:28:28 sounds like it needs a nerf 12:28:54 why would it 12:28:57 and did I mention that refrigeration ignores AC? 12:29:06 but checks rC :( 12:29:07 so's tornado unless it doesn't 12:31:35 -!- Kurper has joined ##crawl-dev 12:40:24 so air has a good spell now? awesome 12:40:27 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:43:46 dpegran: read the last @play? where jh tries to convince us that nethack is a mostly fair game? 12:49:02 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 12:50:51 -!- stabwound has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 12:51:49 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 12:51:49 -!- stabwound has quit [Changing host] 12:51:49 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 12:52:29 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:59:57 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 13:03:51 first time opening stuff.cc. wows. 13:05:47 -!- stabwound has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:07:10 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 13:07:49 enum orb_type 13:07:49 { ORB_ZOT, 13:07:49 }; 13:12:30 anyone know the name of the function to uppercase the first letter of a string? 13:14:22 libutil defines 13:14:27 string uppercase 13:14:29 and string uppercase_first 13:16:19 -!- TGWi has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:17:06 What's the standard for class names 13:17:15 bhaak: just in 13:17:19 CapitalWords, or underscores_like_Everything_else ? 13:17:20 bhaak: no, I didn't. 13:18:43 -!- dpegran is now known as dpeg 13:20:26 mmm, zin random passage generator is alllmooost done 13:23:21 -!- TGWi has joined ##crawl-dev 13:23:52 !seen doy 13:23:53 I last saw doy at Thu Oct 7 09:50:13 2010 UTC (5w 2d 9h 33m 39s ago) parting ##crawl-dev with message chanpart. 13:24:37 should substantial wisps be immune to tornado? 13:24:45 no 13:25:02 they might be argued to be either immune or specially vulnerable to it 13:25:20 that's pointless though 13:25:23 they're *wisps* 13:25:33 since they are described as "a thin wisp of floating gas" 13:25:37 kilobyte: imo treat all made-of-air creatures the same, for both airstrike and this spell 13:25:46 who needs to spend time worrying about whether their level 8 spell works on *wisps* 13:25:49 it's a pointless gimmick 13:25:49 so they might be dispersed into nothing 13:26:23 I prefer to do this correctly from the start. 13:26:51 currently air elementals and ball lightnings are, since well duh, a _storm_ shouldn't affect lightnings 13:27:07 kilobyte yes, that's good 13:27:16 ball lightnings and air elementals are summoned by the player 13:27:29 particularly the demographic of players that would use tornado 13:27:37 they of course get moved around with the max possible range like other weightless fliers 13:27:37 it's relevant and useful 13:27:59 yeah, a Conj/Air 7 spell vs an Air 8 one 13:28:53 it doesn't cost us much to think what else should be immune 13:29:07 certainly not regular fliers due to buffeting 13:31:52 are insects smart enough to avoid hurricanes? 13:32:56 BTW, do _not_ google "locusts tornado", there are millions biblical hits but nothing relevant :p 13:33:01 kilobyte: haha 13:33:13 (I hoped to learn something about these swarms) 13:33:22 I wouldn't worry about insect intelligence. Those who are caught in a tornado will surely suffer. 13:34:49 I'm coding the part about monsters knowing not to enter the radius or being able to step outside. 13:36:53 dpeg what were our options for post-time-step vulnerability? 13:37:12 and do I have to decide which one to do? I didn't sign up for that :P 13:37:21 -!- Hehfiel has joined ##crawl-dev 13:40:15 valrus: :) It's not easy, yes. Some ideas were: Glow. Noise. Loss of MP. Perpetual piety drain (like Yrdy's mirror). 13:40:51 I think maybe the two that make most conceptual sense are glow and noise 13:41:54 I don't know how I feel about losing stabbing. maybe the noise could be longer depending on how many turns were spent out of time? 13:43:09 valrus: sure 13:51:05 ok 13:51:49 I'll add in some glow and noise and then I'm submitting the goddamn thing 13:55:25 :) 14:05:44 I cleared 18 levels and three portal vaults and got exactly one piece of jewellery so far. 14:06:46 what is it? 14:06:49 -!- henryci has quit [Quit: henryci] 14:08:38 TGWi: EV+3 14:08:51 * sorear wonders if dpeg has seen octopodes 14:09:09 I hope dpeg never sees octopodes 14:09:11 In don't even wear it, because I go with Ash, scrolls of remove curse are precious and I don't have a second piece to give me bound magic :) 14:09:26 * dpeg likes electrodes, too 14:09:43 dpeg: so you're hoping to find a ring of hunger or teleportation that you can put on? 14:10:26 TGWi: well, not teleportation 14:10:31 :P 14:10:45 but a decent DSFi of mine found Sustenance and Hunger early on, so wore them both cursed. 14:16:06 !tell Cryp71c Sorry for the onslaught of messages. You can play the Guardian slightly unfun by running around with monsters on your heel, hoping that the trigger kicks in and you get that demon. Perhaps we can think of an improvement. 14:16:07 dpeg: OK, I'll let Cryp71c know. 14:16:12 valrus: I sent you a mail about relicensing, but I'm not sure if that's your correct address. Either way, do you have a problem with moving your contributions old Bison -> GPL2+ ? 14:16:22 I do not 14:16:26 thanks for asking 14:16:31 cool, thanks 14:16:44 I think I trust the new license to be gentle with my 12 lines of code ;) 14:17:21 !tell Eronarn player::res_magic in player.cc 14:17:22 sorear: OK, I'll let Eronarn know. 14:18:28 valrus: the FSF recommends a rule of thumb that says "anything above 10 lines is probably complex enough to be copyrightable". And lawyers say 1 line. 14:18:45 plus, merely sitting on ##crawl-dev and commenting on design is a valuable contribution by itself 14:18:51 yeah I figured there was probably some due diligence 14:19:01 type thing 14:19:02 dpeg: octopodes already support ash. they have to wear 5 cursed jewellery slots to be bound :) 14:19:02 Eronarn: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 14:19:29 03kilobyte * rbd156407ba80 10/crawl-ref/source/spl-damage.cc: Give refrig a debug message about damage done so we can compare it with the competition. 14:19:31 03kilobyte * r1f9277b748df 10/crawl-ref/source/ (7 files): Make tornado immunity res_wind(), granting protection from airstrike as well. 14:19:33 03eronarn * rfd1b2a45dc14 10/crawl-ref/source/ (abl-show.cc mutation.cc player.cc): Draconian patch to help flavour a bit. 14:20:21 Eronarn: and about you? 14:20:35 hm? 14:21:35 "Abominations 19:34 - Only the harmonic shall be judged worthy, and all the hordes of the Abyss will be found wanting. Such is the word of Zin, and such is the law!" 14:21:40 there's a mention in license.txt saying all new contributions are requested to be dual licensed the old license/GPL2+, but we can't really assume everyone tracks changes to some random file 14:22:03 "Abominations 24:45 - And Zin, furious at their discord, held aloft a silver sceptre! The amorphous wretches were ousted, and thus the way of things was maintaned." 14:22:11 Eronarn: cute 14:22:12 nice 14:22:24 heh. And we already know that tiles are an abomination unto Nuggan^WXom. 14:22:33 how many of these things are you going to write? 14:22:36 Eronarn: to be honest, I am not so sure about octopodes... if we want a multi-ring species, I'd try Felids first. 14:22:46 and how many times are zin worshippers going to have to read them :P 14:22:52 valrus: they're dynamically generated! 14:22:55 Eronarn: do you add those lines to the Zin Recite speech? 14:22:59 Eronarn: ! 14:23:05 that's pretty awesome 14:23:10 valrus: they should feel some of the pain they inflict on others 14:23:20 kilobyte: :D 14:23:57 there are 27 base lines like that; 5 kinds of recites; each kind has has 3 sinner names and 3 sin names 14:24:33 it's encoded in the chapter:verse, and those random, but given them, the verse generated is deterministic 14:24:53 how many verses is that? 14:25:04 10935 if my math is right 14:25:42 lol 14:25:47 are there books other than Abominations? 14:25:56 Eronarn: there's a type in "maintained" 14:26:20 dpeg: oops, i'm playing in tiles, i can't c&p so i had to retype it - original is fine though 14:26:25 ah ok 14:26:29 kilobyte: yes - the way i'm redoing recite, there's different kinds of prayers 14:26:58 anti-chaotic (Abominations), anti-impure (Ablutions), anti-heretics (Apostates), anti-unholy (Anathema), pro-allies (Alliances) 14:27:15 it seemed fitting for the Z god to have A books 14:28:06 btw, I don't think recite should cost MP 14:28:30 currently zinnites start with the ability but not enough MP to use it 14:28:32 which is a bit silly 14:29:04 TGWi: what's the cost right now? 3 MP? 14:29:07 yeah 14:29:20 it could be 1 mp, or priest could get a bigger bonus 14:29:45 but it takes multiple turns and is apparently deterministic, I don't think there'd be a problem with spamming it 14:29:54 i was thinking of dropping the MP; putting a minor piety cost on it; but making it give back piety - so you have an incentive to not spam it all of the time, but also an incentive to use it in big fights, even though it freezes you for several turns 14:30:48 zin could give you piety when it works; deduct when it fails 14:30:53 Eronarn: that's an option, but you run into the same issues we had with Ely. 14:31:11 of course this makes it harder to train :( 14:31:15 A mechanic that both costs and gives piety is rather opaque... we had to spend a lot of words :) 14:31:26 Eronarn: why not reduce MP cost and possibly give piety? 14:31:59 it currently neither gives nor costs any piety 14:32:32 dpeg: yes, i'd make it no-MP-cost if it had a piety cost; and if it had a piety cost, i'd make it give back piety for some kinds of successes 14:32:32 no, no 14:32:37 kilobyte: yes, I know that 14:32:44 it should cost piety when it works and give piety when it fails 14:32:53 that way you have an incentive to use it on ogres 14:33:03 encouraging people to fail recite is bad, it should be fixed instead :P 14:33:16 yeah, a recite 'failure' is now just going to be it not working 14:33:18 giving piety for tougher recites is a way to do that 14:33:18 sorear: wouldn't you rather encourage players to use it on goblins? 14:33:19 the hasting is dumb 14:33:23 TGWi: yes 14:33:48 Eronarn: besides, haste from a spell making you immune to recite is a bug IMO 14:34:29 it should be that monsters are immune only if that haste came from a failed recite 14:34:39 kilobyte: yes, but the haste thing should go anyways imo; people don't get so mad at hearing someone preach that they move 100% faster 14:34:40 perhaps even with a different timeout 14:34:46 here's what I think: drop the MP cost and failure effects, make it give a bit of MP for success depending on HD, make resistance check HD not MR 14:34:48 it is an interesting enough drawback having recite taking 3 turns 14:34:53 erm, a bit of piety for success 14:34:56 Eronarn: 50% faster? 14:35:02 monky: well, now, anyways 14:35:09 and make it only work once if it fails, like EH but permanent 14:35:22 TGWi: yeah i was considering some kind of timeout 14:36:08 (and only give piety once per enemy, obviously) 14:38:27 i think the goal of recite should be this: you don't want to use it on every enemy you come across (piety cost); you can gain piety with it (low chance of gaining some per enemy you affect with it); using it should not cause outright negative effects; you shouldn't want to not use it just because there is a hard monster on screen; the delay should always be 3 turns and this should be enough of a downside; the effects should come in staggered across the 3 tur 14:39:01 cuts off at 3 tur 14:39:09 the effects should come in staggered across the 3 turns; you shouldn't be able to recite a given monster multiple times (in a row? or ever?) 14:42:24 is a piety cost necessary? 14:42:39 no, not really 14:42:43 Eronarn: the principles are good 14:43:06 aside from that, what eronarn said 14:43:06 I am not sure that piety cost + small chance of piety gain will match them 14:43:32 Eronarn: are you doing the mechanical part, too? 14:44:36 imo it doesn't make sense for zin to deduct piety for spreading zin gospel 14:45:03 might make sense for zin to get a little annoyed when monsters don't listen to it though 14:45:23 well, encouraging the player to recite against every rat they ever see would get a little old 14:45:43 except rats don't listen to recite 14:45:47 because they're rats 14:45:47 every orc 14:45:55 sometimes I call them rats, it's a thing I do 14:47:21 according to the in-game description, it should be pigs 14:48:26 maybe a piety cost would be fine 14:48:46 or just don't change piety at all 14:49:36 I like that 15:01:19 Move god welcome messages into godspeak.txt (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2831) by 78291 15:05:02 TGWi: yes, i'm doing the mechanical part 15:05:43 but yeah, mainly i don't want recite something you use in every single fight 15:06:10 if you run across a lone unique, yes, you should be able to recite at them - but i don't want to see people using recite against every orc 15:06:27 a piety cost, but piety re-gain depending on how many things you recited to, seems the best way to accomplish this 15:07:07 alternately... reciting could fatigue you 15:07:18 so using it in every fight would be like berserking in every fight 15:07:27 make you out of breath 15:07:31 hah 15:07:33 BWPn 15:07:39 perhaps for a longer duration than dracs 15:07:56 heh 15:08:12 i think a large hunger cost would be interesting with zin because of his food troubles already 15:08:16 have some kind of message about how zin amplifies your voice 15:08:41 "BWpn" should possibly be "Breath" so it's more self-explanatory 15:08:47 not sure if it's an issue or not 15:08:52 or like the power of zin forces the breath out of your body in a booming recitation 15:08:54 oh, by the way, how's this message structure seem: 15:09:26 You begin to recite Abominations 8:58 - "Damned, damned be the hordes of the Abyss and all else who abandon lawfulness! Let them be censured by the jurisprudence of Zin!" 15:09:29 You continue reciting. 15:09:32 You continue reciting. 15:09:38 You finish reciting Abominations 8:58. 15:09:59 You begin to recite Abominations 8:58. 15:10:07 "Damned, damned be the hordes of the Abyss and all else who abandon lawfulness!" 15:10:13 "Let them be censured by the jurisprudence of Zin!"" 15:10:13 so two lines? 15:10:20 You finish reciting Abominations 8:58. 15:10:23 tgw++ 15:10:44 hmm, i could split the messages such that all of them are 3 lines printed independently 15:11:01 replace the "you continue reciting" messages with actual passages from the bible of Zin 15:11:18 yeah, that works i guess 15:11:22 are all of them two sentences? 15:11:27 most of them are right now 15:11:27 or >1 sentence 15:11:37 right now, recite is 5 lines long 15:11:52 start, 3 'continue', 1 finish 15:12:07 isn't it just 3 turns? 15:12:07 the start and the first continue take place immediately on the same turn 15:12:32 you get the 'finish' message when it's your turn to act again 15:13:24 so i guess that'd work pretty smoothly 15:14:04 oh, that reminds me, with my current approach i have up to 2 more 'bits' of randomness 15:14:13 since i'm going deterministic, based on passage # 15:14:43 (except i'm using base-3, so that's 3^2 = 9x more variants, or 3x more variants to A and 3x more to B, etc.) 15:14:59 is that directly base-3 or a hash of the passage #? 15:15:05 directly base-3 15:15:17 it's a base-3 bitmask more or less 15:15:23 because some folks will try to get the whole book 15:15:44 as long as i actually use the whole bitmask, there *is* a whole book :) 15:16:05 it's base 3 so it can be 27:81; but that's 7 base-3 bits and i'm only using 6 15:16:37 don't forget about introducing self-contradictions if you want to emulate the scripture of a real religion :p 15:16:42 heh 15:18:10 hey kilobyte - any plans for using the termrec repository on CDO? 15:18:48 atm bit 1-3 = which core passage to use (27 of them); bit 4 = sinner type; bit 5 = sin type; bit 6/7 = smiting type; but we could plausibly go to 81*3 verse numbers 15:19:12 Napkin: no, I pushed it to try creation and deletion, but the latter failed 15:19:15 Eronarn: jfyi a bit with 3 values is called a trit 15:19:22 sorear: i was wondering about that 15:19:28 i tried wiki-ing it but i couldn't find it 15:19:34 Napkin: my repository and github are enough 15:19:58 * kilobyte mutters something about tits. 15:20:08 which is the less-accepted variant :p 15:20:22 yeah, i think deletion is not planned in gitolite 15:21:07 hm, in C++ if i have int foo[X] do i just pass that into a function as int foo, or do i need to do something special to say that what's passed in is an array 15:22:13 cannot parse 15:22:26 can you be more specific 15:22:31 If you've got int arr[N] and want to use it as an array in a function, you have void f(int a[], size_t len) or void f(int* a, size_t len); 15:22:39 dunno about C++, but in C I always passed those in as an int pointers 15:22:44 You cannot get the bounds to propagate properly, as arrays suck. 15:22:50 As in C. 15:22:51 what Zao said, anyway 15:23:32 okay, that's what i was looking for, thanks 15:23:37 (if you have a multidimensional array, you need to specify the dim-1 rightmost dimensions in the signature, but that's tangential) 15:24:17 stop reminding me why I hate C/C++ :( 15:24:36 of why, I mean 15:26:19 it's interesting working in it 15:26:26 this is by far the largest project i've looked at 15:27:50 crawl is huuuge 15:28:14 it's the largest thing I've ever seriously touched, I think 15:29:44 drupal is possibly larger, i haven't checked, but - no offense to crawl - you don't have to go edit stuff in a million places to get anything done, because it is very modular 15:39:55 -!- Pseudonut has joined ##crawl-dev 15:44:36 damn 15:50:38 what's the best way to do a XOR? 15:50:48 erm 15:50:53 are you still doing tritmask stuff 15:51:49 http://www.muppetlabs.com/~breadbox/intercal-man/s06.html # Extending XOR to trinary data 15:52:14 nah, i'm on the actual recite code now 15:52:44 XOR isn't that obviously extensible... for example, the most often used property of it is that it reverses itself 15:52:53 not so much in trinary 15:54:51 x+1 (mod 3) needs x-1 (mod3) = x+2 (mod3) to be negated 15:54:59 Eronarn: ^ operator is xor 15:55:18 as in, a ^ b 15:57:37 also, sorear, that article is terrifying 15:58:50 the best line in it: (bases bigger than 3) "We cut off before 8 because octal notation is the smallest base used to facilitate human-to-machine communication, and this seems quite contrary to the basic principles behind INTERCAL." 16:10:58 -!- monky has quit [Quit: something weird happened] 16:11:26 -!- monky has joined ##crawl-dev 16:22:46 || Options.hp_warning && you.hp*Options.hp_warning <= you.hp_max 16:22:46 && delay.parm2*Options.hp_warning > you.hp_max 16:22:48 haha 16:23:05 you can force recite to stop earlier by modifying your options 16:23:29 apparently you can make memorisation uninterruptible with options? 16:23:49 I feel like all of this stuff should be fixed 16:26:25 in the case of recite, i'm tempted to just make you continue reciting, regardless of whether you get hit 16:26:48 the book of zin is really gripping 16:28:52 You begin to recite. The book of Zin grips you by the ears! 16:30:14 delay.parm2, in this context, = hp taken that might interrupt you? 16:31:28 Siber: as in, the way Kiku's book gripped Ash? 16:31:42 (Army of Darkness, for the ignorant) 16:31:42 Eronarn: if you make it uninterruptible, there'll be casualties 16:31:56 kilobyte: I honestly am ignornat to the reference 16:31:57 dpeg: 'that's a problem'? :) 16:32:10 dpeg: that's their fault, I guess 16:32:23 merely not recognizing a reference is a good thing in most cases, as most movies do suck... but skipping Army of Darkness is unforgivable 16:32:32 i think i'll keep the one using param2, which is reasonable - assuming param2 in that context does indeed mean HP damage you took 16:32:32 it would be annoying to use if you get interrupted every time someone taps you on the shoulder 16:32:33 recite really can't get any worse so it hardly matters :P 16:32:51 TGWi: well, HP*2 < dam would mean you'd have to take a pretty solid blow, or be low on HP 16:32:52 I've comitted many unforgivable movie sins 16:33:12 or yeah, use something like that 16:33:15 for most movies, the unforgivable sin is in fact watching them 16:34:23 Eronarn: unfortunately yes... at least, we will get tons of complaints :) 16:35:15 hmm 16:35:35 where can i store this random seed, so that it gets used consistently? 16:35:42 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 16:35:56 evening 16:36:02 hi galehar 16:36:33 not sure if i should just tack on something to the delay object, or what 16:37:26 galehar: Hi! I played a DSVM^A earlier today who passed away in the Abyss... but not before reaching ***** piety. I like the reskilling screen a lot. 16:37:44 good 16:37:45 03kilobyte * rd1ff33aa9e09 10/crawl-ref/source/main.cc: Tornado: expire it before levitation, so the order makes some sense. 16:37:46 03kilobyte * r6a1764d4f807 10/crawl-ref/source/ (mon-util.cc mon-util.h monster.cc spl-damage.cc): Tornado: don't warn if the friendlies around are immune. 16:37:47 03kilobyte * r053c4894db60 10/crawl-ref/source/ (enum.h mon-util.cc mon-util.h monster.cc): Allow monsters to be temporarily levitated. 16:37:48 03kilobyte * rd4ac33fbbbf0 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/database/godspeak.txt: Add some penance welcome messages. 16:37:48 galehar: when Air was my leading elemental skill, it got a violent * attached. Why is that? 16:37:59 03kilobyte * r8d7515150604 10/crawl-ref/source/spl-damage.cc: Tornado: levitate affected monsters. 16:38:00 03N78291 * r4ba8858561b7 10/crawl-ref/source/ (dat/database/godspeak.txt main.cc): Move god welcome messages into godspeak.txt 16:38:11 oh my 16:38:21 it indicates that it is anti-training another skill (earth obviously) 16:38:26 does this mean you can tornado things then airstrike them with their new-found airstrike vulnerability? 16:39:08 MarvinPA: heh, I honestly didn't catch that. 16:39:19 :D 16:39:30 sounds awesome 16:39:34 maybe it should only levitate stuff based on power vs monster size 16:39:42 but that does sound like an awesome combination 16:39:52 MarvinPA: we have monster weight that is probably actually in a usable state now 16:39:53 MarvinPA: this part was meant to deal with drowning monsters via tossing them into water/lava 16:39:58 MarvinPA: monster weight, yes... that's the plan as far as I understood 16:40:04 hah sweet 16:40:21 i'm playing a HEAE right now with the hope of trying it out in whatever state it's in on CDO, anyway :) 16:40:36 which is ok by itself, but not when you get a new attempt every turn -- especially since you may elect to have many short turns, eg with weapon swapping 16:40:42 galehar: I think that the * on its own is misleading. Let me check how it looks if I have both Air and Earth. 16:40:53 78 was using it in a zigg earlier, seems very powerful in those big open spaces. 16:41:04 kilobyte: is there no way to make this independent of turns? 16:41:21 Mu_: yes, I watched. Also definitely looks cool enough for a spell of that level. 16:41:31 this is because the anti-training is active even if earth is at 0. But it can be changed of course 16:41:31 dpeg: yes... currently you get only one chance per cast, when the tornado calms down 16:41:38 i love the spiral effect 16:42:42 while it is way weaker than Fire/Icestorm by itself, it indeed may be overpowered since you are free to cast other spells while the wind is blowing 16:43:26 kilobyte: does it change monsters' distance to the centre? 16:43:47 like that unintentional synergy with airstrike... it seems kind of wrong to hurt people by twisting air when they are already being hurt by the same thing 16:44:36 dpeg: I initially wanted to do that, but what I'm about the code keeps the distance the same 16:44:44 kilobyte: well, you can twist the air in the direction they aren't being moved in - like wrenching someone's arm :) 16:44:49 unless you have a better idea 16:45:27 kilobyte: monsters act while they're whirling around? 16:45:48 yeah, paralysis would be waaay overpowered 16:46:19 yes 16:46:20 pushing them away could make you immune to melee, that's the biggest reason I currently have against changing distance 16:46:58 kilobyte: what D&D does with one spell like this: you are blown away only if very tiny; larger creatures just get checked (slower movement when towards you); biggest ones have no penalty to move towards you 16:47:08 kilobyte: it goes both ways... but since closer is good against magical enemies and bad against melee enemies _and_ you're a dedicated caster, closing in seems more interesting. 16:48:27 will it break anything if i modify the struct for delay_queue_item? it's fine if other uses of that struct don't define a property, as long as they aren't trying to use it, yes? 16:48:39 hey, my FeAE^Ash has 18 fighting, 18 UC, 15 ench, 16 air, 15 necro, 14 tmut -- so it's in no way a dedicated caster 16:49:28 and with wizardry I can get it castable when (if) I'll find the book 16:50:01 kilobyte: I see... but I think you get my drift :) 16:51:02 there's a serious problem though: where am I supposed to get the spell slots for if I need Tornado, CBL, Necromutation, Death's Door (if I want a Zig), Haste, DMsl :p 16:51:34 and as you can see from my skill, Ash is so broken... 16:51:34 settle for rmsl, do it hasteless 16:51:59 you barely even need rmsl for zigs 16:52:05 kilobyte: why broken? 16:52:12 since the dangerous stuff is torment/smiting 16:52:43 dpeg: you can have a good deal of skills at 14-16 instead of just one at 27 16:53:24 since their cost rises rapidly but not their utility 16:53:25 kilobyte: you could have had that anyway 16:53:53 only with perfect micro-managed victory dancing 16:54:31 MarvinPA: nothing about perfect 16:54:41 you just switch off the dominating skill and take up something else 16:54:50 It's just that our standard mode of playing leads to 27 skills. 16:55:06 you'd definitely have to be actively victory dancing, at least 16:55:11 I barely ever get a skill to 27 16:56:11 MarvinPA: the fact remains that if you want some skill up, you could just do it earlier... if you do it without Ash, you get the skill earlier and higher. I don't see brokeness here. What Ash does is allow you to throw away former skills (which is precisely what I like). 16:56:20 yeah IME you have to be doing extended endgame, and even then, you have to actually leave it on and want it there (unless you have great apts) 16:56:21 MarvinPA: I've never done a Zig, is doing one halfway with no rMut and no rF a good idea with the skills I mentioned above (+12ish Ice)? I have books for Necromutation, CBL, Freezing Cloud but not Tornado. 16:56:23 galehar: around? I am just looking at the m screens in wizmode. 16:56:42 yes 16:56:47 Eronarn: melee fighters have thin skill sets, so can often get 27 in 3 rune games in their weapon. 16:56:55 hm, i've never tried cbl in zigs but apparently it's good 16:57:09 -!- Pseudonut has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:57:17 galehar: so everything is fine, I'd just disable the asterisk and the colouring in the percentage mode. Both are fine in aptitude mode. 16:57:25 rMut probably isn't a huge deal especially since you're likely to find at least a few !curemut and necromutation protects you anyway 16:57:37 dpeg: or with ash they can go 27=>25 and be able to cast haste 16:57:40 but as a felid running into an fire floor with no rF would probably be pretty lethal 16:57:43 with the haste nerf, wear stasis! 16:58:00 dpeg: ok, I'll do that 16:58:04 I tried it in a regular 15-runer (well, lost one :( ) in 0.4, but CBL turned out damn meh anywhere I tried it (Pan, Zot) 16:58:19 (another thing with reskilling: since spellcasting is so ridiculously awesome, you can sacrifice other spell skills for it) 16:58:36 Eronarn: I know that, but it's not a problem of the god but of the mechanic. 16:58:44 The god only highlights the mechanic. 16:58:46 03galehar * r2c0e06c5bd9d 10/crawl-ref/source/ (skills2.cc skills2.h): change the _display_skill_table to use flags instead of booleans 16:58:47 dpeg: you might want to have a look at that too :) 16:58:58 03galehar * r36f3b56513fa 10/crawl-ref/source/ (skills2.cc skills2.h): Show Ash's reskilling progress on the m-screen 16:59:03 refrigeration is excellent in zigs if you have decent ice skill 16:59:07 also, spellcasting is more expensive (1.3) 16:59:10 guess I gotta compile once more 16:59:49 MarvinPA: I'd hate to lose mutations since I got rElec, Fastheal 2 and a few other goodies, and berserkitis 2/deformed body is irrelevant for a Fe^Ash 16:59:54 Eronarn: I believe that players will greedily rob themselves of useful skills in order to increase Fighting and Spellcasting. 17:00:22 well if you can cast lichform you just rot rather than losing/gaining mutations 17:00:37 dpeg: spellcasting *is* a useful skill 17:01:03 Eronarn: sure. It's just not worth it getting it way up at the expense of your other skills. 17:01:04 dpeg: nope. They'll rob themselves of useless skills. Once you get a certain amount in most skills it becomes not really worthwhile to raise it further, compared to fighting and spellcasting. 17:01:06 didn't learn it yet since it'd be quite unreliable, but I may get some xp first 17:01:24 dpeg: except that often other skills are rather worthless in comparison 17:01:25 dpeg: what about raising the penalty to 20% 17:01:27 Whenever I reach the piety break point for reskilling, I look at my skill set and find that I don't know what skill to sacrifice. 17:01:54 galehar: we can do that, yes. But it won't convince people around here either :) 17:02:11 monky: again, that's a problem with the mechanic, not the ability 17:02:26 right 17:02:30 i like reskilling as a mechanic for completely changing your skill set but yeah, as it works right now it's way too minmaxy 17:02:34 most of the necro/tmut I have on this char is from victory dancing not reskilling 17:02:56 or in fact any skill but fighting 17:03:02 we can also increase the penalty just for fighting and/or spellcasting, as it is the only skills you can't easily victory dance 17:03:22 MarvinPA: did you minmax it? 17:04:00 as I said, spellcasting is already (1.3), we can put a similar penalty to fighting 17:04:05 yes 17:04:37 yes but as you've said, that part of it is mainly a consequence of the skills mechanic where you can lose a couple of levels in return for 10 of something new 17:04:40 galehar: this is the aptitude mod for everyone 17:05:14 kilobyte: yes I know. I mean we can leave the base cost untouched and just put a reskilling penalty to fighting 17:05:19 MarvinPA: yeah, changing the reskilling penalty won't fix that, you're correct about where the problem lies 17:05:32 I believe there is an underlying problem here, but it has almost nothing to do with Ashenzari. It is about usefulness of skills at various ranges. 17:05:51 yeah 17:06:07 In this sense, Ash was just the guinea pig to bring the problem into the spotlight. 17:06:11 dpeg: 17:06:13 ??spell power 17:06:13 spell power[1/5]: (Spellcasting/2 + 2*avg school skill) * INT divided by 10 * (1.5 ^ enhancer count). Now halve the part over 50, halve the part over 100, halve the part over 150, and plain cap at 200. Negative enhancers use 0.5, not 0.66. 17:06:22 i wanted to use reskilling on a transmuter to convert all my necromancy to earth for shattering, for example 17:06:29 which is much cooler 17:06:40 "stepdown" is in dpeg's vocabulary 17:06:59 spell power[1] would have been much simpler if I could say the same about ##crawl 17:07:04 Nemelex disappointed when targetting known mimic with deck of destruction (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2832) by Tenaya 17:07:54 sorear: :) 17:08:19 MarvinPA: yes, that's the type of application we want, of course 17:08:34 oooh 78291 is getting his ass kicked on a mummy level 17:09:04 pan you mean 17:09:04 :o 17:09:25 mummy->pan :( 17:09:32 aha 17:09:36 (by the way, i think we should remove the buff to spellcasting improving spell power (and maybe even success). it'd be good enough to justify a skill if it were just slots and hunger) 17:10:00 and MP 17:10:06 yes 17:10:23 it could also be used for spell noise, making it into an 'efficiency' skill for magic 17:10:39 Eronarn: yes, there are comments on that on some wiki page 17:10:50 Spc does too much, and certain effects are too small 17:11:55 wasn't there a proposal to have spell skills contribute more to spellpower somehow? 17:12:11 03galehar * r60985f5637ff 10/crawl-ref/source/skills2.cc: Fix typo 17:12:13 oh for multi-school spells, having one school contribute more to success and one more to power 17:12:30 [23:57] galehar: so everything is fine, I'd just disable the asterisk and the colouring in the percentage mode. Both are fine in aptitude mode. 17:12:33 I like spellcasting contributing to success because it makes it easier to branch 17:12:38 maybe I'm ridiculous though 17:12:44 what do you mean? They are already only on apt 17:12:52 spellcasting contributing to success makes sense, power less so maybe 17:12:57 kilobyte: nice penance speech, btw 17:12:59 MarvinPA: or not necessarily a split just like that: it could be other effects, like summon elemental making use of elemental skills 17:13:28 monky: if you want to branch out, there's wizardry and int boosts, imo 17:13:34 galehar: the asterisk and the colour are also in percentage mode (when you do just 'm', not 'm!') 17:13:36 it's far too easy with spellcasting, which every character will want to raise anyways 17:13:58 MarvinPA: my proposal was to use Ench for duration and elemental skill for power in certain enchantment spells 17:14:09 but there were convincing arguments against it 17:14:20 slow: hex/ice :) 17:14:34 Eronarn: the only thing ogres have in their favour is the good spellcasting apt so they can branch out lots, it's like the only point of their existence i thought :P 17:14:35 berserk rage: charms/fire 17:14:44 MarvinPA: i don't think we should balance crawl around ogres 17:14:49 lies 17:15:15 MarvinPA: Eronarn is right 17:16:03 well if spellcasting only contributed to success, not power, then you'd still have to get decent skill in magic schools 17:17:05 give ogres superb int 17:17:07 MarvinPA: yes, that is true. Spellcasting should definitely not help with both success and power; with one may be okay. 17:17:53 i liked the idea of int contributing to MR instead of spellpower or something, also 17:18:10 Int clearly has to have some actual effect on spellcasting. 17:18:30 i recall there being a page on the wiki with various suggestions of ways to tweak spellcasting/int/school's effect on spells anyway, with some good ideas 17:18:48 yes 17:19:02 pretty sure I made some awful suggestions :( 17:19:51 Spell success: school skills, Spellcasting 17:19:51 Spell power: school skills, Int 17:20:01 that's proposed on the stats page, i think it'd be cool :) 17:20:23 spell hunger: spellcasting, int 17:20:28 of course 17:20:29 monky: was about to type that 17:20:34 yeah 17:20:35 looks good, yes 17:20:52 dpeg: i think it's your proposal from ages ago anyway :P 17:21:12 dpeg: have you looked at reskilling progression display? 17:21:57 MarvinPA: I never saw it in a concise form like this. 17:22:06 galehar: just finished compilation 17:22:09 ah cool 17:22:16 definitely some nice ideas on that page, anyway 17:23:02 dpeg: also tell me if there's still the bug with the * being display in normal mode 17:23:08 galehar: so you're right, the * only shows in aptitude mode. But the colouring is shown in percentage mode (which it shouldn't, imo), and the * is only relevant once there is a coloured skill 17:23:13 1 17:23:16 erm, ^ 17:23:38 sorear: 17:23:40 ??stepdown 17:23:40 stepdown[1/2]: stepdown_value(pow, ds, s1, sn, cap): Start with pow, keep the part below s1, halve the part above s1. Repeat: keep the part below ds, halve the part above ds, until the total kept is sn. Halve any remainder above sn, and limit to cap. 17:23:49 that entry makes basically no sense 17:23:55 there is also the possibility of decreasing the amount that spellcasting skill adds 17:24:10 right now i's 1/4, which is really quite a lot 17:24:25 when air is at 5 and earth is at 0, you still have to pay double price to reach 1 in earth. Should I remove the penalty at level 0, or just the * ? 17:24:28 maybe it could depend on spell level 17:24:39 more effect on lower spells 17:25:02 so you can get the generalist caster thing without 27 spc characters having everything at good 17:25:05 TGWi: it doesn't need this - lower spells area already a lot easier to cast with low levels of skill 17:25:23 galehar: just the *, I'd say 17:25:38 if we just reduced the % that would be enough 17:26:06 for example: you could make spellcasting 'train all schools equally', so 1 level of spellcasting = +1 / (num of schools) to all schools for spell success 17:26:40 galehar: otherwise, the interface is excellent! 17:26:45 aren't there like 10 schools 17:26:52 :) 17:27:08 11 schools 17:27:19 with Ench splitting? 17:27:19 12 with ben/mal 17:27:25 dpeg: I still have to add an ability to "End transfer knowledge" before it expires 17:27:27 13 with alchemy and ben/mal :P 17:28:17 galehar: perhaps the donating skill could be highlighted when choosing the receiving skill. Also, reskilling is a major event, like deck shuffling, so perhaps there should be a final report with prompt? 17:28:42 "You are about to... Open your mind? (y/n)" 17:29:48 This mischief of a due gave the volcanic orc warrior a potion of berserk rage :) 17:31:47 dpeg: ok 17:31:54 Eronarn: spellcasting alone gives you "very good" for all level 4 spells 17:31:56 which is ridiculous 17:32:05 TGWi: what level of Spc? 17:32:08 27 17:32:26 TGWi: right, because spc levels count at 25% 17:32:38 at 18 int, which is less than most people have I think 17:32:50 if it were 10%, you'd have a sub-level-1-skill boost 17:32:57 TGWi: not sure if that is ridiculous... 17:33:00 hard to get :) 17:33:33 dpeg: getting something like 13 spellcasting + 25 int isn't hard, though, and that'll let you cast many low level spells with 0 school 17:33:51 and level 5 is at very good 17:34:55 Eronarn: the current setup is perhaps a bit skewed, but it's not that far off, imo. 17:35:31 Someone with high Int and Spc is a dedicated caster, so being able to cast low-level spells from untrained schools does not sound bad to me. I agree that level 5 might be a bit too high. 17:35:46 erm, level 5 is at fair 17:35:47 sorry 17:36:00 typo there... also, it lets you get haste with only 6-7 ench 17:36:12 dpeg: even just halving the boost would probably fix it 17:36:48 (also, weird side effect of the boost: spellcasting helps multi-school spells more than mono-school ones, relatively) 17:37:07 I don't like how everything slightly affects everything for spellcasting 17:37:17 int and spc should do something different than "school, but less so" 17:37:21 TGWi: yes, we know :) It's no good like that. 17:37:24 TGWi: see ^ 17:37:38 perhaps instead of (SPELLCASTING + AVG(SPELL SCHOOLS)), it could be AVG(SPELL SCHOOL + SPELLCASTING) 17:37:50 Eronarn: +1 17:38:33 was there a wiki page for this? 17:38:44 so if you have a spellcasting boost of +1 level, you get +1 level to each spell school in the calculation, which would be the difference between 1 + (3/0/3 = 2) and (4+1+4) = 3 17:39:03 TGWi: stats 17:39:20 Eronarn: if you add this to the wiki, I'll clean it up etc. 17:39:42 if someone links me to the page i'll get it in a bit... almost have zin working thouhg 17:39:47 although that is more about int and just mentions spellcasting/spell schools since they're related, i suppose 17:39:50 https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:misc:stats 17:40:03 just removing spell power from spc would be nice 17:40:11 since you could cast those spells, but with awful power 17:40:44 !lg * killer=~malign 17:40:45 No games for * (killer=~malign). 17:40:50 !lg * killer=~eldritch 17:40:50 No games for * (killer=~eldritch). 17:41:00 oops wrong channel 17:41:21 TGWi: power doesn't matter much for some spells though 17:41:40 that's tloc's problem 17:42:31 i always wondered why shadow creatures isn't affected by power 17:42:40 Eronarn: that's not a problem... there'd be spells (and hence casters) with different needs 17:43:11 couldn't shadow creatures summons be weighted by power? 17:43:43 i'd go more with power affecting duration 17:43:56 that too 17:44:06 what doesn 17:44:13 't use power? (except tloc) 17:44:19 alistairs 17:44:42 Ha ha, the last small bubble in Orc:1 has three shops, all next to each other 17:45:15 dpeg: now that's strange, for me it always has an unannouced Volcano/Bailey 17:45:24 or rather, an empty stone arch 17:45:57 TGWi: for some stuff, power just doesn't matter that much because recasting it isn't a big deal 17:47:15 kilobyte: not an empty stone arch for us Ashers 17:47:36 -!- Lizzard88 has joined ##crawl-dev 17:48:48 dpeg: the RNG compensates by just not generating the portals 17:49:21 -!- Pseudonut has joined ##crawl-dev 17:49:30 one portal the whole game (Doroklohe's wizlab) 17:49:45 which BTW is trivialized by the long delay and a means of digging 17:50:35 kilobyte: please explain 17:51:11 when I last had Doroklohe, I barely managed to get alive with 3 hp and no loot... this time I got the ancient lich silenced+easily soloed and then leisurely did the rest 17:51:26 s/get alive/get away alive/ 17:51:43 you can open the boxes on your own 17:52:26 -!- eith has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:52:41 with 7 Evo you need 10+ tries with an earth stone, but there's no hurry 17:52:47 kilobyte: hm, should I change something? It's my map. 17:53:03 a wand would do this instantly, so everyone non-Fe can do this even easier 17:54:15 on the other hand, this is not that much different from clouding everyone in a bailey with water 17:54:43 or Haunting/smiting in Cigotuvi 17:56:16 yes 17:56:38 I guess the problem applies to all vaults that use a lich as main nemesis. 18:00:54 03galehar * ra25b0477324b 10/crawl-ref/source/skills2.cc: Properly handle reskilling end 18:01:09 03galehar * r0cc247410047 10/crawl-ref/source/skills2.cc: Only show colour for anti/cross-training in aptitude mode 18:01:20 03galehar * rd20c3a073e9f 10/crawl-ref/source/skills2.cc: Don't antitrain skills at level 0 18:01:21 03galehar * rb97f4f5e2072 10/crawl-ref/source/skills2.cc: Highlight selected skill in skill transfer menu 18:02:27 galehar: an alternative solution to not antitraining level 0 skills (which is kind of weird): show antitraining skills even if they're at level 0 18:02:36 with the red asterisk 18:03:02 but don't assign a letter, and display them as darkgrey and untoggleable 18:03:08 I don't really like showing 0 level skill 18:03:46 yes 18:03:47 not antitraining them was the easiest fix, but I can also keep the antitraining and just hide the * 18:04:00 nothing wrong with displaying level 0 skills 18:04:04 the issue is similar to some players asking for turning off level 0 skills 18:04:10 it's just not important :) 18:04:11 but it's not a big deal, gaining the first level is cheap, with or without XP penalty 18:04:15 yes 18:05:56 if someone can push this to cdo, it would be nice. reskilling is much improved (and a bugfix) 18:06:14 btw, which machines does this? Can I have an account? :) 18:06:26 wait until eronarn's recite patch :D 18:06:49 also, I suggested yesterday that the "show apts" version of the m screen should show 0 skills 18:06:55 -!- Twilight-1 has joined ##crawl-dev 18:06:58 easier to find and to read than the apts table 18:07:15 TGWi: I don't really like the huge list. 18:07:37 Having to press a key to enable it may be okay, but by default, the skill screen should only deal with skills you actually have. 18:07:47 right, ! 18:09:11 dpeg: could be very easy. I already added a "press * to show all" when reskilling. Since it is using the same menu, generalising it is quite trivial 18:09:43 hardest part should be to fit in the 4 help lines :) 18:10:24 galehar: yes :) 18:10:33 -!- Guest60734 has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:14:38 what about the Ench split? Shall we add some spells first, go ahead with the current branch, or think more? 18:14:47 kilobyte: #1 + #3 18:15:13 kilobyte: do we really need more spells? Ench was the largest school by far... 18:16:16 dpeg: there are things like starting books to think of 18:16:23 Eronarn: sure 18:16:42 also, this is a good time to tackle problematic/useless/etc. spells 18:16:46 but adding new spells is similar to adding new monsters... very often, we're better off by revisiting existing spells/monsters 18:16:47 issues: Hexes have nothing usable for when everything has 200ish MR, Charms lack a 1st level spell for starting chars 18:17:03 yeah, removing some may be good as well 18:17:06 kilobyte: ok, that's specific enough 18:17:16 kilobyte: not just removing, also repairing 18:17:28 -!- galehar has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.12/20101026210630]] 18:17:34 by the way, i'll voice again that i much prefer a good/bad split to a self/other one 18:17:35 kilobyte: having nothing in the high end is less of an issue that nothing at the beginning 18:17:40 tame beasts, the best hex! 18:17:47 it works almost the same, except in the cases where self/other doesn't work well 18:18:43 Eronarn: that variant would have slightly better theme but very uneven balance 18:18:49 which of course can be addressed 18:19:01 kilobyte: what balance issue in particular? 18:19:03 it's just not the case with the current set of spells 18:19:04 moning 18:19:21 due: hi! I just had a very entertaining volcano :) 18:19:28 excellent 18:19:28 * kilobyte meows at due! 18:20:39 Eronarn: Hex/Chrm is roughly balanced, with a bump for Hex for stabbers in early/mid game and a thorough swing for Chrm in the endgame 18:20:52 good/bad would very thoroughly favor good 18:21:10 !tell galehar Awesome work, looks very good now. We can decide later whether we want a Stack Five like prompt. 18:21:11 dpeg: OK, I'll let galehar know. 18:21:18 since good would be basically all charms _plus_ a good amount of hexes 18:21:54 kilobyte: no silence, haste nerfed, no confusing touch/EH... 18:22:50 i mean, there would definitely be more spells in good 18:23:21 but imo we should be rejuggling spells anyways, and this gives a lot better starting point because it makes more sense 18:23:36 I just don't see a decent good/bad split without a serious overhaul of many spells 18:24:42 dpeg: do you have any feeling when we should aim the 0.8 release for? 18:24:46 How many spells would Good have? 18:24:56 kilobyte: March or so 18:25:16 dpeg: a lot, because of stuff like rmsl+dmsl, lev+flight, the brands 18:25:41 but imo those shouldn't really 'count' 18:25:56 bad would have a lot fewer spells currently, but a lot more actually-different effects 18:26:36 confusion+mconfusion, eh+menclaciation 18:26:58 So I should ask, how many has Bad :) 18:26:59 whatever menclaciation is, i want one 18:27:15 oops 18:27:17 I meant 18:27:20 m.englaciation 18:27:33 g is not c: ( 18:27:44 probably not enough for a full school right now, but some spells make a lot of sense in there 18:27:58 like (probably one of) Death Channel or Haunt 18:28:05 32 good, 11 bad 18:29:23 so once you consider the dupe spells in good, probably like 2:1 good:bad currently, though i don't have a whole list in front of me 18:32:05 yeah... confuse+mconfuse+conf touch+enslavement+control undead, eh+me, 18:33:04 is there anything else in bad oh invis 18:33:39 and with the example before, Tame Beasts, cited as "good" while Enslavement/Control Undead as "bad", that's inconsistent as well 18:33:56 Invis is purely good for everyone you can cast it on 18:34:10 have fun making it easily available for enchanters 18:35:59 -!- syllogism has quit [] 18:36:14 kilobyte: re multiuser support: I cannot afford a qualified opinion, so I support everything you suggest. There does not seem to be much controversy around this, so perhaps just take action? 18:36:53 kilobyte: Nuke multiuser, it is pointless and difficult to support and I really doubt anyone uses it. 18:36:57 there are 43 enchantments?? 18:37:08 isn't that like 1/4 of the spells 18:37:39 TGWi: that's one of the reasons for the split 18:37:51 didn't think it was that bad 18:37:55 earth has like 10 spells, right? 18:38:46 Rememer that some enchantments are monster-only spells. 18:39:07 is there a list of these somewhere? 18:39:11 due: I tried to not count these 18:39:33 TGWi: I used spl-data.h, but it's not easy to browse at a glance 18:40:10 hmm 18:41:07 plus I likely made an error or two, this count is likely inaccurate 18:41:18 https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:magic:immense 18:42:01 it seems like everyone on cdo is still immortal 18:42:15 if they've found a randart or whatever it was that caused the crash 18:43:37 http://crawl.pastebin.com/aYWKCW9z 18:43:40 42 minus petrify 18:44:11 hey i forgot i set that up 18:44:14 Earth: passwall, LRD, dig, stone arrow, LCS, stone arrow, magma bolt, sandblast, stoneskin, petrify, shatter, iron shot, MSH, statue form 18:44:37 stone arrow: so good it's on there twice 18:44:50 wow earth really has that few spells? 18:45:10 MarvinPA: tmut has a similarly low number if you ignore alter self, cigotuvi's, and polymorph 18:45:11 and so many of them are lame :( 18:45:13 which are all awful 18:45:47 no idea how many spells are necessary for a good school... 15 good spells would probably do 18:45:49 hm, the tmut spells are mostly good and all quite different though, at least 18:46:11 MarvinPA: uh oh, that's the reason for an urgent build 18:46:16 dpeg: have to consider cross-schools as well as number 18:46:21 dpeg: would you support alter self removal? 18:46:34 TGWi: yes, it doesn't work as a spell 18:47:01 Eronarn: sure, but someone asked for the plain number, so I collected all spells containing Earth. 18:47:17 TGWi: it could become a misc item, if we want 18:47:41 a limited-use misc item 18:47:43 i think it should mutate you with some non-random muts 18:47:45 of course 18:47:49 but then they fade away 18:48:04 maybe gives good-weighted muts depending on evo, but breaks N% of uses 18:48:09 or something 18:48:21 Eronarn: alter self is similar to divinations in that it's an interesting idea which is just not fit for a spell 18:48:28 dpeg: it's not fit because it's scumming 18:48:29 the problem with removing alter self is that fulsome works just as well while being level 1 18:48:38 Eronarn: because of non-tactical use 18:48:56 this is often a good indicator something's wrong 18:49:05 dpeg: are you saying we need a god that gives you mutations? :P 18:49:06 dpeg: i'm saying, make it a short-duration combat buff that gives you generally good mutations 18:49:09 kilobyte: yes, a separate issue, and another good reason to trash AS 18:49:29 so unless you're preparing your character for a necromutator, you can get the potions by scumming uglies 18:49:41 TGWi: I'd be saying that if there was a shortage of mutationally minded deities 18:50:11 basically, it would be cool if being a transmuter didn't mean stopping learning tmut as soon as you can cast blade hands, or otherwise abandoning ever being able to wear your armour 18:50:15 Eronarn: I am still not sure... players would keep casting until they have a good set for the next fight 18:50:54 Much can be done with Trm, but I don't think that mutations are fit for it. 18:51:14 dpeg: it's a mutation spell, so it's pretty easy to give it some kind of glowing or mutation related drawback 18:51:35 was poison ammunition removed? 18:51:51 TGWi: Yes. 18:52:21 or, here's one: make alter self require a potion of mutation as a spell component 18:52:41 Eronarn: That's pointless. 18:52:43 you can find a lot of them in a game if you have fulsome, but not so many that you can afford to cast it 20 times per rune or whatever 18:52:46 that's still non-tactical, and what kilobyte said 18:52:52 you may as well drink the potion. 18:52:59 due: i'm talking about a redone version 18:53:01 a potion of mutation gives you three casts 18:53:02 not the current alter self 18:53:08 Ah. 18:53:15 one that is biased towards giving you mutations, and is short-term 18:53:17 Eronarn: and if it's a randomised buff, I am afraid players will dance it (if the potential buffs are worth it) 18:53:20 er... towards good mutations 18:54:11 e.g. suppose you need a resistance... then you can settle down on the level above, use sustenance and staff of energy until you're there 18:54:18 Unstable branch on CDO updated to: 0.8.0-a0-2478-gb97f4f5 (31.12) 18:55:11 Earth used to have ToD, btw. 18:55:38 FR: bring back ToD 18:55:58 about crashes during death... shouldn't we delete the save file early? 18:56:01 TGWi: there's a reason we scrapped it as a spell 18:56:08 :P 18:56:11 TGWi: ... and turned it into a card 18:56:19 so if something goes wrong, there's no morgue but no immortal chars either 18:56:24 something similar should happen to AS 18:56:35 helix card 18:56:35 there's already helix cards 18:56:36 dpeg: i think requiring a mut pot would be enough to curtail that kind of abuse tbh; a transmuter can get a lot of them but not a truly unlimited supply 18:56:36 Helix 18:56:42 which are weighted towards good stuff too 18:56:48 MarvinPA: yes 18:57:26 especially with how brutal OODs have gotten 18:57:38 Eronarn: I like the idea of spells using components (Eino does too, he made a wiki page for that). And a self-buff that requires !mut sounds good to me. It should just not be random. 18:58:01 Eronarn: OOD are tougher now? 18:58:12 i think they got tougher some time in the past few versions 18:58:32 ah, you may mean OOD generation for idling on a level 18:58:44 well, OODs don't really matter for a char who can cast level 7 spells in a school that's not a primary damage dealer 18:59:15 http://crawl.pastebin.com/cG3E7vK1 18:59:28 15 bad 18:59:34 counting rmsl/dmsl/invis 18:59:38 23 good 18:59:45 and one projected noise 19:00:06 DMsl is purely good, a protective spell 19:00:15 TGWi: how do you explain rmsl etc as bad? 19:00:20 so is Invis 19:00:51 imo move regeneration to tmut/nec 19:01:10 remove from war chants? 19:01:12 also i don't think we should count the tempbrands all as = one spell 19:01:17 tmut got a slew of spells from ench very recently already 19:01:27 kilobyte: it got one 19:01:40 invis is incredibly easy to justify as bad 19:01:54 warp weapon = excruciating wounds = fire brand = freezing aura = poison weapon = t's vorp.blade = msh 19:01:57 and it should stay in the same school as EH, etc regardless 19:02:07 did I miss any 19:02:23 also, lol extension 19:02:48 invis could be "illusion" or something 19:02:54 monky: you missed lethal infusion :D 19:03:05 oh right 19:03:08 Polymorph Other, Petrify, Maxwell's Silver Hammer, Stoneskin 19:03:08 rmsl/dmsl "repel aim" "deflect aim" 19:03:22 um 19:03:25 uh 19:03:25 that's not 'very recently' 19:03:32 petrify is recently 19:03:40 the others, I don't remember them ever being ench 19:03:45 poly, petrify, msh, stoneskin: all great 19:03:47 MSH is so totally overpowered, though :p 19:03:53 although MSH could become completely different and I wouldn't notice at all :P 19:04:12 Eronarn: opinion on that split? 19:04:26 TGWi: it's ok though i think we could honestly get rid of a bunch of spells on there for being unrelentingly awful 19:04:42 and i'd also look at some things that aren't at ench to see whether they'd make sense in there 19:04:52 like death channel or haunt gaining hex 19:05:00 or possibly Pain/Agony 19:05:03 I want a fire/mal that reduces rF by one level 19:05:09 like cerebov's sword 19:05:17 that'd be really cool 19:05:37 it'd be unique and helpful because every fire spell is a conjuration that deals no neutral damage 19:05:47 magma boooooooolt 19:05:52 okay, one 19:05:56 firestorm 19:06:06 and fire storm, but are you going to not kill anything rF until you can cast that? 19:06:11 yes. 19:06:18 evaporate is a fire spell! 19:06:47 a thing that would be cool: crusader coming in a hex version and a charm version 19:06:59 enchanters 19:07:10 how off the mark am I 19:07:13 dpeg: any thoughts? 19:07:34 a hex playstyle that doesn't involve stabbing as your primary way of killing things would be nice if it ever worked 19:07:43 monky: i mean what MarvinPA just said 19:08:10 there are enslavement effects 19:08:15 oh hey TGWi 19:08:18 nothing before l4 though 19:08:21 remember that baleful corona spell i suggested? 19:08:24 no 19:08:28 remind me? 19:08:28 make that the rF- resistable one 19:09:04 freezing corona 19:09:05 baleful corona = you are surrounded by flickering ghostly flames, etc. 19:09:21 did not explicitly decide what it could do, but that'd be a cool effect 19:09:35 makes you easier to hit with anything (like corona), and rF- 19:09:36 ring of fire that targets monsters 19:09:45 flames, rather 19:10:04 -!- Mu_ has quit [Quit: Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place.] 19:10:22 why does fire need a spell that universally raises fire damage 19:10:23 TGWi: regarding the rF- spell? Could be interesting. 19:10:43 about the split (with reflavouring) 19:10:52 illusion, repel/deflect aim 19:11:00 OG17: it wouldn't, you'd have to land an MR roll for starters 19:11:17 OG17: so balrugs can be actually effective instead of fiends stealing their thunder :p 19:11:24 OG17: I guess it would boost damage for lowly fire spells, not for the better ones 19:11:31 also it's not supposed to go below zero rF 19:11:44 also maybe it'd be better to make the current debuff spells viable than to come up with a bunch of explicitly "good" new spells 19:11:46 yes, also that 19:11:54 does cerebov's sword give rF- if you have no rF? 19:12:00 yes 19:12:01 MarvinPA: no idea 19:12:03 cool 19:12:20 OG17: maybe we could do... both... @_@ 19:12:27 but rF-- doesn't do anything, at least on monsters 19:12:42 * kilobyte wasted this beating Antaeus. 19:12:49 it's a greatsword i guess so it's still not really any good, but kinda nifty i suppose 19:12:50 OG17: most of the current debuffs aren't really awful 19:13:00 but then, it was a char with all skills at 27, so it's not like he had a chance anyway 19:13:27 why are they ignored if they're good? 19:13:41 there are 15 of them and half of them do the same thing 19:13:46 a lot of spells are fine but are ignored 19:13:49 the problem with debuffs is that they are completely negated by MR 19:13:53 oh you mean people don't use them 19:14:14 I actually know nothing about control undead 19:14:24 TGWi: great on player ghosts 19:14:31 but tame beasts is mega-awesome for rupert farming 19:14:39 we should really remove tame beasts :| 19:14:46 it's like enslavement but for undead and undead can't cast it because nobody likes them, i suppose 19:15:02 and yeah, tame beasts is really bad 19:15:09 metaglaciation could probably get buffed somehow 19:15:12 especially that you can keep retrying the roll to permanently enslave things 19:15:26 and cause fear (which isn't even that bad probably) 19:15:33 the rest are actual spells that people cast 19:15:53 cause fear is bad, i tried it on my arcane marksman 19:15:59 cause fear isn't bad 19:16:21 OG17: one issue is that there are so many spells in Ench 19:16:25 5 slots for a spell that sometimes makes stuff run away for a turn or two? 19:16:27 this makes decent spells fall out 19:16:27 it affects the whole screen and lots of lower-level enemies have awful MR 19:16:37 MarvinPA: they run away for quite a while if they don't run into walls 19:16:40 lower-level enemies aren't a threat 19:16:45 they are at lower levels 19:16:45 MarvinPA: if you're running, that's four spaces gained 19:16:59 orc priests, orc warriors, etc. 19:17:01 at lower levels you can't cast level 5 spells 19:17:16 you can easily have cause fear castable before lair 19:17:21 and it is quite useful there 19:17:37 splitting en into good and bad effects would leave most of the bad effects school unused 19:17:39 as currently 19:17:45 ok so it's useful for the tiny period of time between orc warriors and hydras, i suppose 19:17:48 OG17: http://crawl.pastebin.com/cG3E7vK1 19:18:14 i agree that it would be nice if it were better, but it's usable at least 19:18:30 one thing that might make it better: use the new monster cause fear effect, which is 'can't come closer' 19:18:44 do two MR rolls; fail one = that, fail two = run 19:18:51 Eronarn: would be neat 19:18:56 sounds nice 19:18:58 making debuffs better makes a lot more sense than trying to justify adding "good" spells like invisibility or whatever 19:19:03 yeah, sounds cool 19:19:11 OG17: invis should obviously be in there 19:19:21 and again, only like two or three of the others are actually bad 19:19:41 TGWi: as "bad"??? I can't think of any possible explanation for that. 19:19:54 i'd like to see this with invis: keep it in good, add a resisted spell that makes you effectively invisible to bad, and nerf monster sinv 19:20:07 kilobyte: it prevents monsters from seeing clearly 19:20:23 monster sinv has to be the way it is right now because stabbing would be ridiculous against too many tough enemies if they didn't have sinv 19:20:24 this is an issue of changing the name and maybe one sentence in the description 19:20:30 because that's mostly what "invis" does now 19:20:41 why are you putting invis/silence/rmsl/dmsl in the debuff category, they're all pretty clearly self-enchants 19:20:44 but if invis were in a school with no synergy with stabbing, it wouldn't be that much of a problem 19:20:58 um, silence is a debuff 19:20:59 then why 1. it affects monsters who are not there when you cast it, 2. monsters immune to magic, 3. monsters with good MR 19:21:08 and a resisted invis spell would be pretty cool for hexes 19:21:31 a debuff isn't focused on the caster 19:21:31 kilobyte: if you define "debuff" as "spell that is MR's bitch" it's not going to be good 19:21:35 because A) based on power B) you can make it a lower level spell 19:21:38 this is like debuff 101 19:21:59 preventing things from casting: a buff 19:22:16 it's a self-centered effect yes 19:22:32 TGWi: I don't see how a protective spell you cast on yourself can count as "debuff" 19:22:35 this is mal/ben not self/other 19:22:35 current invisibility is pretty clearly a buff but 19:22:37 see above 19:22:57 'invisibility' vs. 'jedi mind trick' 19:23:57 why would you make invisibility "has a mind" instead of "can see you?" 19:24:20 are dogs especially resistant to psychic illusions or something 19:24:29 OG17: because i don't want to 'make invisibility' into that, i want to have two different effects 19:24:43 you have two different invisibility effects 19:25:07 also um 19:25:13 dogs have minds bro 19:25:16 zombies and stuff don't though 19:25:51 I'm saying that shifting invisibility from sight to mind messes with a lot of stuff 19:26:08 i'm saying that it's nothing to do with 'shifting' it 19:27:00 invisibility: L6 charms spell that renders you actually invisible, but now has little synergy with stealth/stabbing because charms has none of that 19:27:39 how is it untied to stealth/stabbing? 19:27:39 mask presence: L? hex spell that treats you as if you're invisible based on some check involving MR, so it works well on weaker enemies but poorly on stronger one, and has synergy with the rest of the school 19:28:08 so basically you'd put all the stealth spells into the same school 19:28:12 I say that if it's a spell you may want to cast on your allies, then it's a buff. 19:28:28 possibly with rmsl/dmsl/silence even 19:28:28 ... that is exactly the thing that i am not saying 19:28:30 gj 19:28:59 you have a charm that isn't good for stealth and a hex that's good for stealth or something 19:29:08 I think he's trying to argue with me but doing it towards you 19:29:17 i dunno man it's pretty confusing 19:29:30 I'm just trying to figure out why you'd split the schools in the first place like this 19:29:42 OG17: because self/other is dumb 19:30:02 doesn't haste affect self or other? where was that going to go? 19:30:25 TGWi: if it stayed self/other, probably remove haste other, except as a monster spell, because monsters are cheaters 19:30:39 hey, what if we flipped a coin for every spell and put it in a school depending on that 19:30:40 I mean at all, the main buffs are low-level stuff, flight, and a nerfed haste 19:30:49 death's door I guess 19:30:55 heads and tails would probably have about the same number of spells and power 19:31:05 anyhow this discussion is dumb 19:31:10 so let's talk about starting books 19:31:15 OG17: 40 spells are enchantments 19:31:25 okay 19:31:28 and they all do completely different things 19:31:29 new enchanter: corona, EH, confuse, enslave, hex-invis? 19:31:33 did i miss any ench spells 19:31:36 i swear there's one more 19:31:39 did death's door ever get nerfed after everyone realised how absurdly overpowered it is? 19:33:46 also on a completely unrelated note, does tornado make noise? 19:33:58 it seems like i can cast it then run at things and they don't actually necessarily wake up 19:34:07 a sneaky tornado 19:34:43 oh heh, if somehow a monster missed the initial casting, taking damage doesn't wake them up 19:34:52 nice :P 19:36:27 I think orefrig does that too 19:36:35 hilarious vs xtahua 19:36:44 yeah but that doesn't make a huge tornado appear 19:41:53 03kilobyte * rec16dad52ad2 10/crawl-ref/source/spl-damage.cc: Tornado: make monsters be woken by damage if they somehow ignored the noise. 19:41:57 03kilobyte * r193855ffac3c 10/crawl-ref/source/spl-damage.cc: Tornado: completely ignore submerged monsters. 19:42:19 it doesn't toss water up into rain clouds? :( 19:42:51 (and then hit previously submerged creatures) 19:44:50 haha it knocks over trees 19:44:51 <3 19:48:02 oh, I missed Fedhas thwapping you for that 19:51:04 03kilobyte * ra69646875f3a 10/crawl-ref/source/spl-damage.cc: Tornado: fix Fedhas not noticing you being nasty to trees. 19:56:31 how does tornado work with tele/blink 19:56:41 slow should get something nice 19:56:57 I don't think people used to memorise it, and now it slows lee 19:56:59 less* 19:57:32 -!- Pseudonut has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:58:13 well again, one approach would be to roll not just against the target's MR, but to also deduce from that for how long the monster is slowed, and how strongly. 19:59:04 another problem is that the monster can just cast Haste twice 19:59:17 isn't that a bug? 19:59:47 dpeg: it would be nice if some spells used MR for duration instead of success 19:59:57 slow preventing haste on monsters (at least with some chance) would make the spell a lot more interesting 20:00:05 TGWi: yes 20:00:06 would give mal something to do against MR 20:12:05 should do the same for players, affected vs immune isn't very interesting 20:12:33 actually, you could do the same thing for a lot of spells 20:12:46 most of them 20:12:50 right 20:13:05 some would say all of them 20:13:34 wiki! 20:13:43 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 20:23:49 (confusing touch is also a buff if anyone's still counting) 20:24:34 that was an accident 20:24:49 but you're ugly 20:25:31 poor projected noise 20:25:40 projected noise gets its own school 20:25:46 and it's level 4 20:25:48 to balance it 20:25:50 projected noise is overpowered, it should get that, yes 20:25:58 put it in throwing 20:26:12 "throw voice" 20:26:20 monky: :D 20:36:37 i personally like the idea of spells checking MR twice; if one success, do X, if two, do X+Y 20:37:03 this makes X more common than it is now, and X+Y a lot less common against harder foes, but not that much less common against weaker ones 20:37:23 make a page 20:37:41 nah i'm cool, thanks though 20:38:04 but how else will it be ignored 20:38:25 secondary effects sound overcomplicated anyway 20:38:32 spells actually doing X would be enough 20:38:47 what would this be complicated for? 20:38:55 everything? 20:40:49 how 20:41:49 two effects are more complicated than one effect 20:42:12 revising the MR formula is even more complicated than having two effects 20:42:55 fixing a formula once is not more complex than having secondary effects forever 20:43:24 imo, remove all but one spell 20:43:28 it's less complicated that way 20:43:45 that one spell could do everything the current spells do, yes 20:44:36 wouldn't that be complicated? 20:44:45 ensorcelled hastestorm 20:44:50 not if it uses the current mr fomula 20:47:50 -!- Pseudonut has joined ##crawl-dev 20:54:22 we need some nec/hex spells imo 20:55:05 a hand of death spell would be pretty rad 20:55:13 what would it do 20:56:54 monky: perhaps a touch range spell that, if not resisted, will kill them - but take a while to kick in 21:03:16 what if crawl had poison? 21:06:03 TGWi: i don't mean a DOT, i mean they're fine and then they keel over dead 21:07:28 -!- Kurper has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:24:42 -!- Lizzard88 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:26:23 -!- Lizzard88 has joined ##crawl-dev 21:34:12 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:45:11 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 22:04:20 -!- enne has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:26:45 !tell kilobyte It doesn't look like vehumet supports tornado, but I assume this should be the case? 22:26:46 elliptic: OK, I'll let kilobyte know. 22:38:47 -!- enne has joined ##crawl-dev 22:44:18 -!- MakMorn has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:56:46 oh damnit i suck 22:56:59 i just wasted like an hour because i took out a line of code i shouldn't 22:57:06 lol 22:57:13 if (mon == NULL) 22:57:14 return (0); 22:57:30 - important when you are doing radius_iterator, apparently! 22:57:52 !coffee due 22:57:52 * Henzell hands due a mug of irish coffee, brewed by Snorg. 22:58:21 due: How's nanowrimo going :P 22:58:44 greensnark: i gave up 22:59:05 :( 22:59:30 Eronarn: how's it going 22:59:47 sorear: i am learning about wonderful things like pointers, the Fun way 23:00:52 <3 pointers 23:02:13 -!- Iainuki has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:02:42 i have no particular complaints with them, i was honestly expecting it to be a lot worse than it has been 23:05:35 -!- Iainuki has joined ##crawl-dev 23:05:35 -!- Iainuki has quit [Changing host] 23:05:35 -!- Iainuki has joined ##crawl-dev 23:11:16 oh, making those breaks into continues helps also!! 23:11:42 mmm, excellent, i have it preserving the random seed now 23:11:59 also interruption works as expected 23:12:02 what are you doing with the seed? 23:12:42 sorear: recite generates 5 messages; previously i had the seed being generated inside the function that used it, which meant every one of the 5 lines had a different message 23:13:28 -!- MakMorn has joined ##crawl-dev 23:13:31 now the seed is stored in the delay object itself 23:13:40 aha 23:37:36 -!- TGWi has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:43:31 -!- Kurper has joined ##crawl-dev 23:51:16 hmm 23:51:22 one problem with this new version of recite 23:51:44 the flavor text takes place during the delay, but the delay occurs after effects start 23:51:48 see: 23:51:51 You begin reciting Abominations 25:48. 23:51:51 The hobgoblin seems impressed! 23:51:52 You continue reciting. "When the law of the land faltered, Zin rose from his silver throne, and the amorphous wretches were smited. And it was thusly that the law 23:51:54 _was made good." 23:51:57 _You continue reciting. "Nobody wants to play him." 23:51:59 _You continue reciting. "Why are you bothering?" 23:52:02 _You finish reciting Abominations 25:48. 23:52:40 looks spammy 23:52:46 you don't think that's at all verbose 23:52:48 also yes 23:52:56 good thing I have mutes on multiturn messages 23:53:08 monky: well the top one is going to be split across three lines and also that 23:53:09 also, "smited", what 23:53:46 monky: i had it at 'smote' and people complained even though that's right 23:54:23 well, it wouldn't be in that one, actually 23:54:27 try removing the passive voice it'll become a whole lot better 23:55:07 yeah i wrote them all in one go, and i'm mostly interested in the code 23:55:29 once i have the code running smoothly i'll post the text so people can look for errors or contribute new text 23:56:23 not sure why this needs paragraphs of text, the current version's plenty flavorful with one line 23:56:46 "smitten" is the Crawl joke tradition 23:56:51 "smited" is plainly wrong 23:57:20 nothing needs anything, i'm coding it because i want to learn crawl's code better and am fixing recite's mechanics anyways 23:58:01 where do paragraphs of text fit in 23:58:22 Crawl IF? 23:58:42 they fit in your chatting (because it is paragraphs of complaining) 23:59:05 good answer yes 23:59:26 > hit ogre 23:59:29 Hit ogre with what?