00:16:46 -!- TGWi has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:31:14 Windows development builds on CDO updated to: 0.8.0-a0-2349-gdda5d09 00:49:03 Unstable branch on CDO updated to: 0.8.0-a0-2349-gdda5d09 (31.10) 00:53:40 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:58:03 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 01:58:22 -!- Kurper has joined ##crawl-dev 02:08:01 morning 02:11:40 due: do fountain mimics always show up as of blood if you're a vampire? if so, <3 02:25:54 no, but they should 02:32:11 ah, guess it wasj ust random that the one i found was 02:41:30 yeah 02:45:15 -!- OG17 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:00:59 -!- casmith789 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:21:32 -!- Moriasc has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:22:18 -!- Moriasc has joined ##crawl-dev 03:22:40 -!- Moriasc has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:26:18 -!- Pseudonut has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:37:42 -!- Moriasc has joined ##crawl-dev 03:37:53 -!- Kurper has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:45:43 -!- hashc has joined ##crawl-dev 03:46:31 -!- Pseudonut has joined ##crawl-dev 04:31:56 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 04:45:52 -!- monky has quit [Quit: hello] 04:56:56 -!- Moriasc has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:15:21 -!- Pseudonut has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:12:51 KiloByte (L24 FeAE) (Lair:1) 06:25:49 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 06:46:43 KiloByte (L24 FeAE) (Lair:1) 06:50:10 KiloByte (L24 FeAE) (Lair:1) 07:09:46 KiloByte (L24 FeAE) (Lair:1) 07:28:32 KiloByte (L24 FeAE) (Lair:1) 07:29:54 !learn del felid[5] 07:29:55 Deleted felid[5/5]: see {felids} 07:30:04 !learn del felids 07:30:04 Deleted felids[1/1]: Are people too. 07:37:11 -!- TGWi has joined ##crawl-dev 07:41:29 -!- Twinge has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:46:00 -!- Noom has joined ##crawl-dev 08:18:34 -!- Moriasc has joined ##crawl-dev 08:23:02 -!- blackpenguin has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 08:25:55 03kilobyte * raa38eec6383a 10/crawl-ref/source/describe.cc: Fix a crash on forgetting spells. 08:39:49 -!- blackpenguin has joined ##crawl-dev 09:07:15 -!- pointless_ has joined ##crawl-dev 09:14:28 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 09:24:24 -!- casmith789 has joined ##crawl-dev 09:42:58 -!- Soadreqm has joined ##crawl-dev 09:49:16 KiloByte (L24 FeAE) (Lair:1) 09:49:38 oh hrm, it would help to actually update the thing :p 09:55:06 Unstable branch on CDO updated to: 0.8.0-a0-2350-gaa38eec (31.10) 10:05:29 -!- Twinge has joined ##crawl-dev 10:48:31 -!- OG17 has joined ##crawl-dev 10:54:11 -!- casmith789 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:05:33 -!- Siber has joined ##crawl-dev 11:22:03 -!- Noom has left ##crawl-dev 11:38:51 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 11:39:17 -!- Twinge has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:49:35 -!- Moriasc has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:12:29 Surr (L18 MfIE) ASSERT(probe != attack_constraints.connection_constraints->end()) in 'mon-abil.cc' at line 1569 failed. (Shoals:5) 12:15:58 -!- Moriasc has joined ##crawl-dev 12:16:15 FeCK is a recommended combo but all god options are greyed out (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2816) by MarvintheParanoidAndroid 12:18:19 03galehar * rc998cfaedf89 10/crawl-ref/source/skills.cc: Remove obsolete call to update_player_symbol() 12:18:30 03galehar * r20cf6bdb4236 10/crawl-ref/source/wiz-you.cc: Fix skill points rescaling when changing race in wizmode 12:24:19 -!- upsy has joined ##crawl-dev 12:25:11 -!- pointless_ has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.12/20101026210630]] 12:27:57 03dolorous * r0686fe49f50c 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-act.cc: Typo fix. 12:27:58 03dolorous * r4490fba5b4f8 10/crawl-ref/source/ (mon-act.cc mon-cast.cc): Make Summon Elemental available as a monster spell. 12:35:11 03dolorous * r09c829986bd7 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-act.cc: Simplify. 12:44:00 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 12:44:01 cheers 12:44:08 kilobyte and galehar around? 12:44:58 -!- Kurper has joined ##crawl-dev 12:50:50 03dolorous * r61593131991d 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-act.cc: Remove redundant return. 12:50:51 03dolorous * r81becaaa60f2 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-act.cc: Add minor cosmetic fixes. 13:01:27 -!- OG17 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:04:19 -!- bmh has joined ##crawl-dev 13:04:47 hi 13:04:51 -!- bmh has quit [Changing host] 13:04:51 -!- bmh has joined ##crawl-dev 13:04:59 -!- monky has joined ##crawl-dev 13:07:10 -!- OG17 has joined ##crawl-dev 13:07:18 hi 13:12:56 03dolorous * r061de59d1cfe 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-act.cc: Do proper foe checking for rod spells that are direct effects. 13:13:07 03dolorous * ra9df68f6e099 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-act.cc: Add more minor cosmetic fixes. 13:20:25 -!- Siber2 has joined ##crawl-dev 13:22:44 -!- Siber has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:27:04 03dolorous * r4d18ef7dc74c 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-act.cc: Explicitly return for direct effect rod spells with no target. 13:37:35 bmh: hi, just in 13:39:30 -!- Pseudonut has joined ##crawl-dev 13:41:04 dpeg: looks like I've got to run. I haven't been around as I just got a job 13:41:10 -!- bmh has quit [Quit: bmh] 13:48:50 -!- bmh has joined ##crawl-dev 13:49:10 Dpeg: and I'm back! 13:56:45 -!- bmh has quit [Quit: Bye] 14:12:24 -!- pointless_ has joined ##crawl-dev 14:19:24 -!- cw_ has joined ##crawl-dev 14:46:23 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:55:27 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 15:12:23 -!- Adeon is now known as MaryPoppins 15:25:56 -!- pointless_ has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.12/20101026210630]] 15:37:05 !seen greensnark 15:37:05 I last saw greensnark at Sun Oct 24 14:09:43 2010 UTC (1w 6d 6h 27m 22s ago) quitting with message Remote host closed the connection. 16:19:35 -!- pointless_ has joined ##crawl-dev 16:30:06 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 16:30:54 -!- eith has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:41:37 just in 16:46:34 03dolorous * r9643ddfc7fec 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-act.cc: Add formatting fixes. 16:46:37 03dolorous * r3ffe176423f4 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-act.cc: Add spacing fix. 16:46:39 03dolorous * r444fdb78667c 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-act.cc: Constify. 16:46:40 03dolorous * ra256762432f3 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-act.cc: Add more minor cosmetic fixes. 16:46:42 03dolorous * r90ab1da9c6ab 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-act.cc: Generalize some of the monster rod code. 16:58:01 where on the wiki do I suggest redundant monsters be removed? 16:58:44 perhaps the existing monsters page 16:58:55 oh that's about tweaks 16:58:58 is removal a tweak 16:59:15 it's the best tweak 17:01:57 TGWi: yes, an existing monster page is best. 17:02:02 What monsters do you want to cut? 17:02:21 vipers, bumblebees, one of the bears 17:02:38 sounds reasonable, yes 17:02:43 and maybe one of the spiders 17:02:46 @??wolf spider 17:02:46 wolf spider (16s) | Speed: 15 | HD: 8 | Health: 29-59 | AC/EV: 3/10 | Damage: 2004(medium poison) | Res: 06magic(32) | Vul: 09poison | Chunks: clean/none/unknown | XP: 457. 17:02:52 @??redback 17:02:53 redback (05s) | Speed: 15 | HD: 6 | Health: 20-45 | AC/EV: 2/12 | Damage: 1805(strong poison) | Res: 06magic(24) | Vul: 09poison | Chunks: clean/none/unknown | XP: 301. 17:05:25 aren't wolf spiders and trapdoor spiders the same except for trapdoor spiders being interesting or something like that 17:05:28 @??trapdoor spider 17:05:28 trapdoor spider (11s) | Speed: 15 | HD: 8 | Health: 29-59 | AC/EV: 3/10 | Damage: 2004(medium poison) | Res: 06magic(32) | Vul: 09poison | Chunks: clean/none/unknown | XP: 456. 17:05:48 and somehow being worth 1 less exp?? 17:05:55 lol 17:06:20 the XP numbers are randomly generated 17:06:47 Gretell generates 100 monsters and takes the average 17:06:57 there will still be some residual variance 17:09:57 03galehar * r52c163ed98f9 10/crawl-ref/source/skills.cc: Fix level check for faster training of level 0 skills 17:09:59 03galehar * r8486de56943c 10/crawl-ref/source/ (skills.cc skills2.cc wiz-you.cc): Replace tabs by whitespaces 17:10:01 03galehar * r3aeabf5c911d 10/crawl-ref/source/player.cc: Recheck all skill levels on draconian maturation 17:12:21 bumblebees should totally stay for the foxfire card though, the red k glyph is cute when you summon loads of them 17:12:31 red y is cuter 17:13:14 what's actually on y? 17:13:21 just red and yellow wasps? 17:13:27 blowflies 17:13:31 mosquitos 17:13:33 oh yeah, mosquitoes and stuff 17:13:45 -e 17:14:03 I mistyped :( 17:14:15 is it meant to have an e when you pluralise it? i wasn't sure 17:14:21 I think so 17:20:45 bring back robot finds kitten, thanks 17:26:37 wolf spiders are ogre-sized as well 17:30:41 cockroach, mite, centipede: -2, scorpion: -1, emperor scorpion: +1!, spider -3, tarantella, jumping spider: -1, wolf spider: +1!, trapdoor spider: -2, redback: -3 17:31:08 a wolf multiplied by a spider 17:31:44 ogre spider 17:31:47 even size -2 is way, waaay too big -- a meter tall 17:32:03 does size have any gameplay effects other than trampling? 17:32:24 I don't think so 17:32:37 not a very good reason for wolf spiders to stay, then :P 17:32:57 directly no, except we try to keep weights in line with size so wolf spiders can produce many chunks 17:33:07 why many chunks? 17:33:42 also, I want wolf spiders gone, is there a problem with that? 17:34:41 you could give them metal plating and a machine gun :p 17:35:00 kilobyte: is there an easy way to commit a patchfile while keeping author name and address and commit message? 17:36:00 I notice you said "hex" in the illusory decoy page 17:36:00 'git am' 17:36:15 are there plans to change the ench split? 17:37:04 galehar, kilobyte: can we quickly talk about the anti-cross-training for magical skills? 17:37:15 currently none, the discussion degenerated before any arguments for changing it were provided 17:37:30 the argument didn't degenerate but okay 17:37:31 dpeg: sure 17:37:32 but that can change 17:37:34 dpeg: sure 17:37:37 cool 17:38:01 1. Do you agree that using an xp penalty is okay for opposite schools (fire-ice)? 17:38:06 I'm going to borrow the idea of a "wolf spider" for my D&D campaign, as it could be terribly eerie if you think about it- large, agile spiders the size of wolves, that hunt in packs and have an intelligence surpassing that of canines 17:38:41 TGWi: if a dev tells you it degenerated, it somehow did degenerate :) 17:38:45 re ben/mal split: 1) it splits most of the good spells down the middle 2) it splits the two playstyles down the middle (without changing much flavour) 17:39:15 there are no reasons to not do so, as reskilling makes them indeed problematic 17:39:35 kilobyte: that's something likes a yes to my question? :) 17:39:36 dpeg: yes, but how much? And what to do with reskilling (which currently ignores XP cost)? 17:39:36 dpeg: as I understand it there's no exp penalty, they just train less frequently? 17:39:43 TGWi: "degenerated" as in "derailed" mostly -- we were talking mostly about topics only tangentially related 17:40:16 galehar: there's no problem with reskilling, we just ignore the fact that players spent more xp there. 17:40:29 TGWi: yes, which means taht the desired effect does not really materialise 17:40:36 oh, fair enough 17:40:45 TGWi: ben would have all of charms and more (weapon branding spells) 17:40:57 it means you can get around it by victory dancing sufficiently, which is no fun 17:41:01 yes 17:41:10 dpeg: what about for non-opposite schools? that always seemed wrong to me 17:41:14 MarvinPA: or put in other words: even more incentive to dance. 17:41:21 right 17:41:26 like, air and fire shouldn't anticross-train 17:41:38 So for ice-fire and air-earth, we can replace the slower training by increased xp costs, okay? 17:41:45 dpeg: the problem is if you reskill to raise ice magic when you're strong in fire, then the XP cost isn't considered, so there's no penalty 17:41:45 sure 17:41:46 dpeg: esp. fire/earth and air/ice, since those are paired in the conjurer books 17:42:15 galehar: oh, that's not good. 17:42:22 the problems I mentioned are for non-opposite, and TGWi just repeated what I said on c-r-d 17:42:26 galehar: but it could be considered? 17:42:38 kilobyte: <3 17:42:49 kilobyte, TGWi: wouldn't that just mean we're better off by doing away with the non-opposite penalties? 17:42:53 having an actual penalty for direct opposites is a good idea 17:42:58 dpeg: I would support that 17:43:03 yeah, sounds like a good idea 17:43:05 actual penalty for direct opposites, no penalty for non-opposites 17:43:07 dpeg: it is probably just easier to raise the reskilling penalty 17:43:10 the 10% 17:43:18 The current "penalties" is an odd one, so we replace the one we understand by something substantial. 17:44:18 galehar: we need to determine the xp penalty beforehand 17:44:19 kilobyte: mal would have all of charms :S 17:44:24 or, the most enchanter-y parts 17:44:34 You could make it an asynergy inherent in the spell design- i.e. the way Ozocubu's works with casting fire spells. 17:44:45 also, we have to check the numbers, because XP cost is capped. So if we rely on raising the XP cost, it might disappear at high level 17:44:51 corona/EH/confuse/enslave 17:45:02 galehar: please explain 17:45:06 TGWi: these are all Hex 17:45:25 and they're all mal 17:45:48 charms doesn't have weapon brands, as I understand 17:45:50 which is wrong 17:46:31 the two splits are usually the same, except for where self/other is way off 17:46:51 dpeg: when a skill is exercised, some XP are converted to skill points. How much depends on total_skill_points. the more you get, the more expensive a skill points get 17:47:02 s/get/have/ 17:47:12 well 17:47:29 I'm not sure about weapon brands, but several peoples named self-enchantments (ie, current Charms) as the powergamer's dream, and I kind of agree. 17:47:38 total_skill_points is the sum of all skill levels? 17:47:45 of all skill points 17:47:59 it's supposed to be quite linear for any kind of char 17:48:14 even if they are not that powerful, they all are spells you want to keep on most of the time 17:48:37 galehar: what is "skill points"? Xp sunk into skills? 17:48:46 yes 17:48:51 (sorry for the stupid questions, but I seem to miss something.) 17:49:19 galehar: ok, so the more xp you earn and use to train (no matter what), the harder it is to train more... 17:49:43 yes 17:49:44 TGWi: you may have some point -- I prefer Chrm/Hex because of my feeling of the long-term relative strengths of the schools, but I am not so certain my view is correct 17:49:51 harder meaning more expensive 17:50:07 yes, not slower 17:50:29 galehar: so your point is that reskilling does not take total_skill_points into account? 17:50:44 at the beginning, 1 skill point = 1 XP. But the maximum is 1 skill point = 25 XP 17:50:51 250 17:51:15 no, because 250 is the cost for 10 skill points 17:51:29 oh right 17:52:18 dpeg: no reskilling take that into account. The problem is if you say it cost twice for anti-train, then if the base cost is already 20XP, it is only raised to 25XP 17:52:31 galehar: ah, we hit the limit 17:52:54 or maybe we don't. We have to run the numbers. 17:53:08 But my guess if is there is a limit, it is probably reached at some point 17:53:08 galehar: is there any reason to not allow going over the 25 threshold sometimes? 17:53:31 I'm not sure. 17:53:33 if I remember correctly, this happens at XL~24, sooner for bad apts 17:53:39 I'll have to look to see what would happen 17:54:00 -!- Siber2 is now known as Siber 17:54:21 galehar: so if used ordinarily, the threshold would stay at 25, but for special purposes (reskilling), we can go beyond it... 17:54:29 kilobyte: remember it's the same cost for all skills 17:54:32 btw, would 2x xp cost translate to aptiude-2 ? 17:54:46 no apt -4 17:54:58 aren't new apts on a log scale or something crazy like that 17:55:03 yes 17:55:26 by crazy I mean confusing 17:55:39 1 / exp(log(2) * apt / 4) 17:56:30 but keep in mind that +4 => x2, +8 => x4, -4 => /2, ... 17:56:36 galehar: I thought that actual cross-training was four times as fast... 17:56:49 no it's twice 17:56:52 ah, ok 17:56:59 then it is -4, yes 17:57:29 monky: to whom is it confusing? To a new player? 17:57:35 to me too 17:57:45 but can be x4 if you crosstrain from 2 different skills (eg: axes from polearms and M&F) 17:58:22 they're presented linearly (... -2, -1, 0, 1, 2, ...), but really they're not 17:58:28 same with the spell power hashes 17:59:39 monky: i think they have diminishing return, so presenting them liked that actually makes more sense 17:59:46 they were changed for this reason 18:00:04 monky: how are they "linearly presented". They are just numbers. The % text explains even how they scale. 18:00:16 spell power is logarythmic (very roughly), aptitudes exponential (strictly) 18:00:51 the exp(log()) is just 2^(apt/4) 18:01:34 dpeg: if we double the cost, it means they will train faster than currently (speed 1/2 instead of 2/9), but as you spend more XP, that might be OK 18:02:10 galehar: well, in the future, it would actually be more expensive to train, not just more cumbersome 18:02:29 if we think the brake is not enough, we're free to go further than apt-4, of course 18:02:48 sure 18:03:21 But it's also good if cross-training and anti-cross-training have the same effect on aptitudes (+4, -4) 18:04:04 right 18:05:00 ok so replace the slow anti-training by x2 XP cost 18:05:09 yes, I think we all agree 18:05:20 And remove the other slow training instances. 18:05:33 yes 18:05:39 for elemmental schools 18:05:46 what about general schools? 18:06:03 the effect is small? 18:06:37 speed training can go from 5/6 to 2/3 18:06:50 I think we should leave that for the moment 18:07:09 not just small, irrelevant as the XP just goes partially into other skills 18:07:14 I think it's better to throw away all of the old mechanic. 18:07:39 If we want to reinstate a nerf to multi-schooling later on, we should do it right. 18:07:39 ok 18:08:19 in a way which doesn't encourage victory dance 18:08:25 right 18:08:43 so, about showing up all of this on the m-screen 18:08:48 Yes, I was going to ask- would it really make the game more exciting / better balanced? 18:09:05 Moriasc: what would? 18:09:22 dpeg: Anti-cross training! 18:09:35 While we're at it: I think the m-screen should indicate what skills are responsible for (anti) cross training 18:09:42 Moriasc: yes, absolutely. 18:10:04 Moriasc: at least with the opposing elements, everyone seems to agree it's good design. 18:10:08 dpeg: at this rate, the m-screen will look like a christmas tree 18:10:18 right in time for the holidays :) 18:10:55 as I said, when you crosstrain, you can have a +8 bonus if you crosstrain from 2 different skills 18:11:38 so what about +4/lightblue, +8/blue 18:11:43 which meant you sank loads of xp in totally unhelpful skills 18:11:58 dpeg: It just seems to me to be shoehorning, while with many combinations of skills being naturally synergistic you don't especially need to add these very confining numeric limits. 18:12:11 I guess that's such a rare occurence that there's no need for a separate color, just numbers 18:12:18 kilobyte: yes, I agree 18:12:31 Moriasc: we want to avoid casters looking all the same. That's one part of it. 18:12:32 ok 18:12:35 Moriasc: I think it has potential to offer choices between opposing elements 18:12:41 which is good because what dpeg just said 18:13:20 so -4 anti-train in red 18:13:24 dpeg, TGWi: Mmmm! What I mean is that I prefer effects that naturally work against each other (i.e. Ozo's Armour and fire) 18:13:50 Moriasc: I don't know about you, but I always feel I am committing myself to something when going for an element. (Needlessly so up to now, as I just have been informed.) 18:13:52 (That might be the path of even greater artificial constraint) 18:13:52 I actually think Ozo's is too trigger-happy but :S 18:14:09 with regards to shutting off if it touches fire 18:14:24 and it would be hard to add such a constraint to most spells 18:14:28 Moriasc: you would have to do that for all spells... don't think it can be done. 18:14:45 I don't see how we can show up skills responsible for the anti/cross training. What if there are several at the same time? 18:14:46 The idea that it's harder to master Ice if you're following the Fire path seems natural enough to me. 18:15:11 Yes, what I have in mind is a more subtle asynergy, but it's probably telling of how difficult that is that I can't think of many examples. 18:15:18 galehar: could we have a little coloured * after the aptitude? 18:15:38 -!- Soadreqm has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:15:44 -!- Pseudonut has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:15:49 dpeg: sure 18:16:15 so if Lbl=10, Sbl=4, then you see "Long Blades Skill 10 0*", "Short Blades Skill 4 0+4" 18:16:20 with * and +4 in blue 18:16:22 in contrived cases you can have Axes 3, Polearms 2, Staves 1 18:16:26 dpeg: Maybe it's the way, for example, Conjurations always seems more important than whatever elemental school I'm shooting, I don't know... but I just don't get that feeling. 18:16:36 where Polearms would get both * and +4 18:16:37 dpeg: (That's just feedback, my emotional response) 18:16:42 Anyway, sorry to interrupt ll 18:16:48 kilobyte: yes, but we don't care... we just show the resulting aptitudes and the donating skills 18:16:52 ^^;; 18:16:52 Moriasc: no problem :) 18:16:54 tgwi: about ozo dying too easily. I put something on the wiki. With higher ice magic, it should be more resilient against weak fire attacks 18:17:39 what about losing 10 aut duration per 1 hp of fire damage? 18:18:16 so any damage you care of will instantly shut it down, but irrelevant one won't 18:18:44 kilobyte: sounds good 18:19:04 yes 18:19:19 scaling with ice instead of power would be better, but harder to code 18:20:08 or maybe the ice skill could count against how many aut/damage? 18:20:21 something like that, yes 18:23:09 dpeg: I'm adding all we discussed tonight on my todo. But I'm going to take a break from all the skill crazyness for a few days to review Arxale's interface patches 18:23:13 radical proposal: remove some fire/ice mirrors to differentiate the choice 18:23:30 galehar: good policy, thank you 18:23:40 TGWi: yes, always a good idea 18:23:47 but we need specific proposals :) 18:23:54 nix b.fire 18:24:01 since b.magma and fireball both exist 18:24:31 TGWi: the current mirrors are just bolts and storms -- bolts are identical, storms are quite different (fire being much better, with smite targetting and vortices) 18:24:41 kilobyte: throw foo 18:24:49 TGWi: there's a great idea for magma: shotgun targetting 18:24:55 and throw foo, right 18:25:01 a magma buff accompanied by removing b.fire would be interesting to me 18:25:16 or a magma coolening 18:25:22 coolifying 18:25:24 magma would be better at short range or against groups, worse against lines or distant targets 18:25:35 yes, especially as Fire already has the two ball spells 18:25:48 no one uses fireball 18:25:54 kilobyte: there are also the clouds 18:25:55 throw frost or throw flame could be switched in place with stone arrow 18:26:05 kilobyte: well, that could change if we remove the bolt 18:26:10 I mean, give earth a level 2 conjuration and either fire or ice a level 3 instead 18:26:20 kilobyte: I think shotgun targetting would be more appropriate as a lightning spell 18:26:26 (which would be sort of an ee buff, too) 18:27:18 Don't destroy one of them- mix the two of them! How about you make Fireball a beam/bomb hybrid? 18:27:29 galehar: I can't think of lightning spraying a spread of projectiles 18:27:52 high level Air is useless currently 18:27:53 galehar: air already has a number of distinct mechanics 18:27:56 think of palpatine :) 18:27:56 I'm not a fan 18:28:05 was that a pun 18:28:11 monky: it is now 18:28:13 Chain Lightning being a bad joke, and Ball Lightning being meh too 18:28:29 every air conjuration is unique, if weak 18:28:30 kilobyte: we need to look at every one of the spells at some point anyway 18:28:40 dpeg: yesss <3 18:28:48 instead of adding new ones, we should clearly repair the unique spells (most Air ones, for example) 18:29:03 TGWi: but we need to look at so many other things as well 18:29:07 Freezing Cloud kicks ass, but it's more an Ice thing 18:29:07 * dpeg lacks enough eyes. 18:29:17 dpeg: jiyva can help 18:30:52 i tried a bunch of bad spells and added feedback on the wiki a while ago 18:31:01 thinking of air conjurations in particular 18:31:06 where? 18:31:11 I'm interested 18:31:15 https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:magic:static_discharge 18:31:19 https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:magic:ignite_poison 18:31:24 and what about current Earth? Going Fire->Earth was a no-brainer in 0.4, but these days, no one uses Earth conjurations anymore. 18:32:00 for a while PA was a fad, which hurt earth 18:32:08 I'm not sure what people use now, maybe it's just a reputation 18:32:11 low-level earth is so bad 18:32:19 EE spells are terrible though yeah 18:32:41 and PA is all you need for single targets if you're not doing extended endgame 18:32:47 PA kicked ass by its good range and good damage 18:33:57 kilobyte: the reason people hate earth now is because their short ranges are hurt do to circular ranges more than any other spells 18:34:04 iron shot is decent, and lcs is sweet but the range is so sad 18:34:08 range 2 crystal spear? seriously? 18:34:12 yeah, that 18:35:03 MarvinPA: I agree about Static Discharge (might be just axed with no loss) and Ignite Poison (totally unsynergetic schools, tedious to set up) 18:35:30 kilobyte: I don't think static needs to be axed, just buffed a lot 18:35:35 i think static discharge would be fun with much less or no self-damage, and better damage output 18:35:42 yes, the circular range change of 0.7 was a straight nerf, in addition to the range nerf of 0.5 18:35:48 getting yourself surrounded for maximum effectiveness is a fun spell idea 18:36:08 ignite poison, I'm pretty indifferent yeah 18:36:09 it should keep the average not minimal case 18:36:13 it's just a novelty 18:36:43 updating the schools might save the spell 18:36:49 I usually see it in the context of "hey guys hive is so easy with ignite poison" 18:37:06 snake:5 with ignite poison <3 18:37:07 I wouldn't be sad if it disappeared, is all 18:37:15 repeating here - i want to see static discharge be a touch spell that, when you land a touch, shocks them + arcs to nearby enemies (no dmage to you) 18:37:29 TGWi: if you sling level 6 spells, hive is easy, full stop 18:37:31 eh, it's a conjuration 18:37:44 kilobyte: l6 spells of weird schools yeah :P 18:37:52 kilobyte: ignite poison is ctually also very good in snake 18:38:17 the problem is the schools + level, and the lack of synergy with everything, even in its own chools (since you can't use evap while using it) 18:38:19 it doesn't do much except trivialise one interesting branch and one boring one, though 18:38:22 kilobyte: didn't you fixed 2794? 18:39:01 MarvinPA: primarily because you can't use it to ignite poison clouds you make easily, yeah 18:39:09 if you could use it with evaporate it'd be the logical next step from it 18:39:10 galehar: oh right, I didn't notice it was reported 18:40:24 Freezing Cloud is so much better for the same level 18:40:50 especially if you peek in, cast it, retreat, wait 18:41:05 Why do you want to axe a genuinely different spell like Discharge instead of improving it? 18:41:16 what page would the fire/ice de-mirroring go on? 18:42:08 oh hey since knockback on flyers got added to white drac breath 18:42:11 https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:magic:shatter 18:42:14 shatter should get it too 18:42:17 :D 18:42:51 shatter: tmut/earth/air 18:42:55 dpeg: it's very rare to have rElec when it could be possibly useful currently 18:43:06 kilobyte: yes, but we can change the spell 18:43:11 of course 18:43:21 or declare that levitating is enough for it to not harm you 18:43:35 even flying and wielding a staff of air for rElec and power boost, my past AE attempts to use it failed miserably 18:43:42 MarvinPA: that seemslike exactly the kind of eeffect that i would not associate with shatter 18:43:45 I'm pretty sure it deals poor damage even considering self-harm 18:44:21 i imagine shatter as a massive shockwave or something, rather than an earthquake 18:44:25 shatter randomly moving ground monsters 1 space (possibly depending on size) would be a cool effect 18:44:53 could be a cool gimmick, yeah 18:45:10 if on any spell i'd like to see it on airstrke 18:45:13 vs. flying monsters 18:45:18 heh 18:45:41 I really wonder why we don't have tornadoes of any kind 18:45:59 air vortex 18:46:06 would be nice with the total lack of decent high-level air stuff 18:46:07 that would be cool for an actually-good high level air conjuration 18:46:11 Eronarn: there's none 18:46:11 snap 18:46:27 insubstantial wisp -> air vortex 18:46:28 kilobyte: oh i'm saying in crawl terminologyt it'd be an air vortex :3 18:46:36 alternatively, air elemental -> air vortex 18:46:43 I'm thinking of something much larger 18:46:44 a tornado in a dungeon, that's just silly 18:46:47 tornadoes sound interesting 18:46:58 -!- TGWi has left ##crawl-dev 18:47:04 -!- TGWi has joined ##crawl-dev 18:47:07 Eronarn: just like swamps and shoals right 18:47:14 something of a radius 5-6 that tosses things around doing big damage 18:47:30 monky: underground rivers go through swamp, feeding an underground sea 18:47:31 perhaps centered around you so there's no mirroring of Fire/Ice storm 18:47:39 kilobyte: +1 18:47:40 mm i like that idea 18:47:44 kilobyte: it could move around with you and do it over some turns 18:48:05 perhaps make it fly you for the duration 18:48:35 "You float in the eye of the storm, watching chaos unfold around you!" 18:49:05 however, i'd say makei t all air rather than air conj 18:49:44