00:05:45 -!- Pseudonut has joined ##crawl-dev 00:12:56 00:32 < minced> I may have to change unbreathing, deep water traversal on a race that already can walk through walls is kind of strong 00:13:04 unbreathing doesn't have to mean they're okay with deep water 00:17:22 Eronarn: that's what I was saying above 00:18:35 (one could consider this: not needing to breathe, being able to go as deep as they like into walls, not being able to swim at ALL (not even shallow)) 00:20:38 that could be very interesting. I believe the idea of not being able to walk in shallow water was proposed before for some circumstances (spriggans, I believe) but was shot down because it would make certain vaults inaccessible that were designed to be accessible. but gnomes could bypass that problem entirely as long as the vault wasn't metal... I actually really like this idea 00:21:01 Wensley_: vampires!! 00:21:13 spriggans had the more general 'small races flounder in water more often' 00:21:15 proposed 00:21:32 and for swamp/shoals levitation/flight is necessary for gnomes? 00:21:58 monky: well, if they can't enter water, they can't blink into it either 00:22:14 and swamp is actually doable without lev now, just somewhat annoying 00:22:16 monky: it needn't be so severe as "they can't go in shallow water at all", perhaps they just get maluses to discourage them from doing so 00:22:20 same with shoals, really 00:22:28 they have enough land sections that you can explore without entering water 00:23:49 in any case, we should definitely look into either discouraging gnomes or outright preventing gnomes from entering shallow water 00:24:13 minced: what do you think? 00:25:48 oh 00:25:50 sorry phone call 00:27:50 I don't think we can outright prevent gnomes in shallows - too many vaults assume shallow water = passable 00:28:30 that point was brought up in felid design with the same answer 00:28:52 floundering more often is fine 00:29:23 hmmm 00:29:27 oh I see you mentioned that 00:29:40 if we could make it a flavorful malus it would be great, like "you slowly turn to mud from standing in water" 00:29:53 that... would be kind of awesome =) 00:30:02 eeew mud people 00:31:22 gnomes are already more terrain-sensitive than any other race, so gnome players will notice the malus without trouble 00:32:10 I have some reservations, esp since swamp already will be a nightmare for gnomes, but the shallow water malus seems at least worth trying out. 00:32:49 I think it would be fun, and in many of the vaults that assume shallow water = passable there will be passable rock walls anyway 00:33:31 -!- aboleth has left ##crawl-dev 00:33:58 honestly I'm fine with swamp/shoals being a nightmare for gnomes, perhaps it will encourage people to try alternative branch orderings 00:34:09 which would be fantastic 00:34:19 i don't think the vaults will be as much of a problem as you might think 00:34:28 blink makes a LOT of them passable 00:34:43 even if swimming doesn't 00:34:55 flight as well, although this race has -4 air magic 00:38:24 in any case, if the devs have already frowned upon making shallow water impassable then let's stick with a penalty while in shallow water for now *and* prevent them from swimming in deep water even though they're unbreathing. does that sound good to you, minced? 00:39:29 sure 00:39:38 gotta sleep now 00:39:41 thanks all 00:39:46 no prob, thanks for listening to me ramble :) 00:39:56 I'll put some comments on the wiki if you'd like 00:40:18 sure 00:40:20 thanks again 00:40:22 -4 air magic isn't going to hurt Levitation 00:40:28 i wonder if statrot would be a good shallow water penalty 00:40:35 level 2 spells can be cast with no school spell and 8ish Spellcasting 00:40:46 school skill 00:40:52 statrot? prob not, players spend very little time in shallows anyway 00:41:32 the flavor "turn to mud" could be interpreted as hp loss or further slowing effects 00:41:52 sorear: we should really do something about that 00:41:54 it's kind of awful 00:41:54 yeah, I was thinking of making nomes a little slower in shallow water than other races 00:41:55 could also mean a harder time attuning... giving them a negative attunement value 00:42:27 minced: i don't mean the same as the statrot mutation - i mean a point every round or two off a random stat 00:42:32 that would be very noticeable 00:42:35 oh 00:42:48 that would also make autoexplore unusable 00:42:51 it could reverse once you've been out of water for a while, had time to dry off 00:43:04 doesn't autoexplore already avoid shallow water if it can? 00:43:25 if nomes get a penalty in shallow water they definitely shouldn't be autoexploring into it 00:43:53 good point 00:45:04 how about -20% max hp and negative earth attunement? 00:45:16 that penalty doesn't threaten death by mudifying but still hurts 00:45:31 "turned to mud" would be an awesome death though 00:46:05 thing is, even if nomes get a shallow water penalty they will *have* to explore into shallows in swamp 00:46:23 (or use levitation) 00:48:09 I think -20% max hp and negative attunement is great for now 00:49:00 it's very simple and we can tweak it later if we want to make it more complex, like damage over a series of turns or a gradual penalty 00:49:20 which would be really cool, in my opinion 00:49:51 but a lot of it will depend on seeing how unavoidable shallow water is, and how much of a burden it will really represent (which has yet to be seen) 00:58:06 -!- paxed has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:01:23 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 01:56:20 -!- CIA-49 has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:48:36 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 02:48:39 -!- monky has quit [Quit: hello] 02:55:15 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:06:00 -!- elliptic has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:17:29 -!- Pseudonut has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:29:20 -!- Twilight has joined ##crawl-dev 03:29:46 -!- Twilight is now known as Guest84031 03:29:52 -!- Twilight-1 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:45:12 -!- upsy has joined ##crawl-dev 03:59:02 -!- CIA-47 has joined ##crawl-dev 04:03:05 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 04:03:15 hi 04:03:16 galehar: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 04:03:21 !messages 04:03:21 (1/1) dpeg said (15h 55m 46s ago): Regarding reskilling disabled skills, I see where you are coming from. But I believe that we'll get more complaints about players who "forgot to turn on the skill prior to reskilling" than players consciously using disabled reskilling (especially given the piety cost). 04:22:08 -!- MakMorn has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:22:35 -!- MakMorn has joined ##crawl-dev 04:51:26 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:56:29 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 05:01:25 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 05:01:37 galehar: thanks for looking into Arxale's patches! 05:02:12 Well, I haven't yet, but I will 05:02:51 there has been some comment on the wiki about the first one 05:03:48 about high dispersion of margin values making the messages a bit useless 05:04:18 and about wether there should be damage ponctuation when it misses 05:04:45 So, I'll probably leave that one for later :) 05:05:22 galehar: okay 05:05:43 but we should be able to make the messages of the first one useful 05:05:55 perhaps talk about it when Adam and Jude are around 05:06:10 ok 05:08:25 I've got my second DSFi^A to the point where I can use reskilling. But it's a damn hard choice... I don't want to lose any of my precious skills :) 05:09:36 Do you have a use for all of them? 05:10:27 yes, melee fighters tend to have a slim skill set 05:10:47 Fighting, Axes, UC (I'm monstrous), Armour, Shields 05:11:15 UC and shields? 05:11:18 all around 12, the disabled skills (Dodging, Stealth, T&D, Evo) are around 3-5, so not worth to reskill, I think 05:11:24 galehar: monstrous! 05:11:44 If I find a good two-hander (any kind of weapon, not just axe), I might drop the shield. 05:12:46 well, you can use reskilling to switch your main weapon if you find an uber randart which isn't an axe 05:14:02 On the other hand, a monstrous DS has rather few armour slots, so I like the shield. Decisions! 05:14:18 that reminds me... 05:15:04 !tell Cryp71c My current DSFi has flames of Gehenna. I can use them without cooldown and without MP cost. The hunger cost is noticeable, but I am still machine-gun firing my way through the unwashed masses. Bug or intent? 05:15:04 dpeg: OK, I'll let Cryp71c know. 05:16:36 !seen bhaak 05:16:36 I last saw bhaak at Mon Nov 1 10:22:48 2010 UTC (23h 53m 48s ago) saying its much more exciting than crawl tournament. you never know if the servers will be up till it starts and if the challenges are working and what programming bug in the new challenge will be exploitable or will kill you :) on ##crawl-dev. 05:32:55 -!- ortoslon has joined ##crawl-dev 05:43:36 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 05:46:46 -!- ortoslon has quit [Quit: bye] 06:01:45 hi 06:10:11 hi 06:40:56 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 06:58:37 Staircase hide part of level name in level map (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2797) by Nexos 07:15:34 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 07:45:17 -!- Soadreqm has joined ##crawl-dev 08:39:13 dpeg: were you pinging me because of janis' snippy reply to pat on rgrn? 08:40:52 bhaak: yes! 08:41:05 :-) 09:02:55 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 09:19:06 dpeg: hi 09:20:17 minced: Hi! 09:20:24 You're the gnome-man, right? :) 09:20:31 yes 09:21:04 I've got to leave in a minute, though. 09:21:18 i'm just wondering if there are any plans to use Tukima 09:21:23 (I implemented her) 09:22:17 not so sure 09:22:22 but I would lobby for the new species :) 09:22:31 octopus. 09:22:35 cool! 09:23:10 I didn't follow too closely... did you and Wensley change the design after I made some comments? 09:23:40 yes, I have a "second revision" posted now. 09:23:55 ah, will have a look later on 09:26:12 gotta go 09:27:02 -!- TGWi has joined ##crawl-dev 09:27:03 ok 09:29:28 Submerged creatures don't react when attacked with weapons of reaching (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2798) by Leibowitz 10:10:08 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 10:17:07 -!- minced has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:28:48 ahoy, dpeg 10:37:56 -!- Pseudonut has joined ##crawl-dev 10:48:50 -!- Wensley_ has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:04:42 -!- Wensley_ has joined ##crawl-dev 11:05:16 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 11:14:51 back 11:17:20 i think that maybe, once someone has the abyssal rune, they should become more resistant to banishment - not immune, mind you, but i think that it is too easy to spend a very, very large number of turns there if your luck is bad 11:18:31 -!- ortoslon has joined ##crawl-dev 11:19:27 a kobold with a whip of electrocution has just one-shot my XL2 MfGl with full 20 HP. RIP Orto the Unlucky 11:19:55 Eronarn: just removing banishment as a hell effect would probably do the trick there 11:20:05 MarvinPA: i don't mind it as a hell effect 11:20:20 or, rather - i do mind it, but i can see why it's there, at least 11:20:33 if it were removed as a hell effect, i would want to see it on a monster in Hell 11:20:36 it's a pretty lame hell effect, in that it puts you somewhere safer and much more boring than you are currently 11:21:45 i actually don't think the abyss is boring, as long as you only get sent there a few times each game 11:21:49 and at a low enough XL 11:22:10 right, but once you can handle hell and pan it's just a dull trudge until an exit shows up 11:22:12 the problem is the sheer amount of turns you can spend there - i got banished *5* times doing dis 11:22:15 :( 11:22:34 ouch :/ 11:22:56 i think changing abyss difficulty by XL would be justified 11:23:08 since it's lugonu's realm - she can take an interest in non-lugonites there 11:23:46 at one point i suggested making it gradually more dangerous the longer you spend there, and remembering that between visits 11:23:53 but that might be too similar to the pan proposals, not sure 11:24:17 that would be a good mechanic. i don't think it would be as interesting in pan, because of the ability to swap levels quickly 11:24:39 run in, ninja the rune, leave 11:24:51 yeah 11:25:05 i'm not sure pan really needs a revamp tbh 11:25:25 eh, i'd like it to get harder 11:25:40 i don't think you can make 'infinite series of random rooms filled with random demons' interesting 11:25:50 and we can make it harder, but why? that just penalizes non-scummy characters 11:26:25 well there's some more simple ideas to improve it, like warning you before you enter a unique level 11:26:38 so that it can be worth visiting earlier without risking losing a rune forever 11:26:56 MarvinPA: a more generalized 'portals in pan give hints of where they'll end up' would be nice 11:27:08 'A warm portal', 'An oozing portal', etc. 11:27:38 then e.g. cerebov = fiery so 'A fiery portal', and if you're about to enter it, you get a prompt asking whether you dare to challenge cerebov 11:27:48 yeah, that would be cool 11:28:04 - then use the hints on the other portals to make more randomly-thematic pan levels 11:28:12 such as tied to the pan lord's abilities 11:29:04 heh: if your potion of blood coagulates with full inventory, it falls out 11:31:16 someone should revise the old coc map, the loot and difficulty are both negligible compared to the new one 11:36:20 -!- Zao has quit [*.net *.split] 11:36:20 -!- violetj has quit [*.net *.split] 11:36:20 -!- sorear has quit [*.net *.split] 11:36:20 -!- elly has quit [*.net *.split] 11:36:25 -!- violetj has joined ##crawl-dev 11:36:25 -!- sorear has joined ##crawl-dev 11:36:30 -!- Zao has joined ##crawl-dev 11:36:42 -!- elly has joined ##crawl-dev 11:45:09 !tell bookofjude Just had a stair mimic follow me. It was awesome :) 11:45:09 dpeg: OK, I'll let bookofjude know. 11:45:38 dpeg: 11:45:39 !lg 11:45:39 11546. TGW the Apostate (L27 HaCr), escaped with the Orb and 3 runes on 2010-11-02, with 1332582 points after 144973 turns and 9:00:14. 11:45:52 (with ashenzari) 11:47:04 TGWi: tell me about it, please. 11:47:37 TGWi: how was your scroll minigame? 11:47:43 Did you use scyring? 11:47:47 And reskilling? 11:47:58 scrying is cool and useful but I did all the branch ends really late so I only really used it in zot 11:48:09 reskilling... short answer, yes 11:48:34 yes, I also use scrying 11:48:47 what do you think about duration? 11:48:58 seems fine, you can just use it again 11:49:14 reskilling: I reached level 10 long blades on twenty-four separate occasions 11:49:19 yes, that's true 11:49:33 TGWi: and where did you lead those xp into? 11:49:43 mastered dodging and fighting 11:49:50 what weapon did you use? 11:49:56 a +7 orcish scimitar 11:50:01 (doesn't everyone?) 11:50:11 I never use long swords :) 11:50:29 Does that mean that the weapon skills are not useful enough? 11:50:39 no 11:50:46 the smoky temple entrance prevents me from stashing in the temple easily because of all exclusions 11:50:51 this means I was cross-training long blades up to 13 over and over 11:51:07 I don't like reskilling, the way exp works means it's less of an interesting choice than it should be 11:51:08 TGWi: ah, you've been abusing cross-training, now I see 11:51:10 for example: 11:51:18 17 ench, 0 air -> 14 ench, 14 air 11:51:35 there's obviously no question as to which one is better 11:52:03 you can give up a few levels to get anything fairly castable instantly 11:52:27 okay, good point 11:52:58 (my skills at the end were a bit weird because I reskilled to get the atheist 27 invo title) 11:53:11 this is compounded by the distribution of useful spells across levels 11:53:51 since 17 ench won't let you cast much that 14 or even 10 ench won't, that you'd actually want to cast 11:53:51 can i file this as an interface bug? 11:53:51 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Quit: Page closed] 11:54:08 ortoslon: not sure but without it, nothing will happen. If you file, I will look at the vault. 11:54:36 I actually like Ashenzarites having more uniform skill sets. But there's some problems around it, to be sure. What if each skill could donate just once? 11:54:56 that's unnecessarily draconian and doesn't solve the problem 11:55:00 I only donated enchantments once 11:55:23 yes, but see what you wrote on Blades 11:55:29 (where you've been abusing a bug, of course :) 11:55:37 or rather, a not-yet feature 11:57:24 oh, and then I gave up 14 -> 10 air magic to get 9 translocations 11:57:38 leaving dmsl still as castable but with phase shift also available now 11:58:02 There are other, more subtle approaches: skills you buy via the god could use a different cost function 11:58:33 btw, I relayed your interface idea to galehar, it will make the system much more transparent 11:59:00 I prefer Eronarn's skill boosts 11:59:08 I don't. 12:00:28 Your arguments are valid, I really appreciate your feedback and I said here (though I forgot on the wiki) that Eronarn's system would also make a good final Ash power. 12:01:22 But: we have started with the reskilling (which was not my idea, btw), and it is cool and it can be improved upon. 12:01:45 If we had known of Eronarn's proposal earlier and followed it, then we'd be discussing other subtle issues. It's always like this. 12:03:07 so I won a game for nothing? 12:03:09 :( 12:03:20 this is terrible for my reputation 12:03:30 13:01 <@dpeg> But: we have started with the reskilling (which was not my idea, btw), and it is cool and it can be improved upon. 12:03:34 ahahha 12:03:36 ahahahahha 12:03:38 i am literally cassandra irl 12:04:28 for nothing? 12:04:41 You point out flaws we will fix. ==> progress! 12:04:54 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 12:06:34 TGWi: so for when reskilling inevitably needs to be dumped for being awful, how do you think the skill boost should work 12:06:35 There are unnecessarily hard feelings around here, but just think you'd be leading something and every five minutes someone asks you to change horses in midstream. 12:06:53 i think a range of up to +6 works, but i'm not sure * = + would work 12:07:09 because then at 1 piety, you're only getting +1 skill level, which isn't really interesting 12:07:27 then again, i guess it might be if you got it early enough 12:07:46 could just not grant the ability until 2* or 3* 12:08:16 +6 at max seems fair though 12:08:50 dpeg: but I just rode your horse and it's slower than the other one :( 12:08:54 well, if you got it at 2* and it was +2, it would make sense to just make it directly tied to stars of piety and extend it to 1 - but i'm not sure whether it should be a linear scale or something else 12:09:30 TGWi: I am probably not a fair arbiter in this case, with all the stuff thrown at me. 12:09:39 But how do you know that the other approach would work better? 12:10:09 * galehar gives dpeg a ring of shaolin 12:10:19 * dpeg feels invincible! 12:10:53 If you look at the common denominator, you'll find tinkering with skills. I think that's cool because it is very much unique in Crawl and it can be very strong. 12:11:15 There are several ways how to do it and it's not clear to me that one is automatically inferior/superior to another. 12:12:07 TGWi: also, be aware of that fact that it's all in flux. So you have been abusing cross-training. That will go away. So you get the new skill instantly. That will also change, I think. So you could reskill a lot. We're free to add clamps in any way we want. 12:15:27 Curare is broken for grey draconians (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2799) by OG17 12:16:21 it's less the 'instantly' part and more that N exp in one skill is never worth the same as N exp in another 12:16:52 between the skill's level, your aptitude, which skills, etc. 12:17:03 TGWi: that applies to all skill-boosting system, including Eronarn's proposal. 12:17:15 a flat bonus has nothing to do with experience 12:17:34 and eronarn's proposal is a singular boost 12:18:15 skill output is linear, and input is not; 4 levels of one is probably never worth 10 of another 12:18:28 one skill* and another skill* 12:18:34 as I said, the way how reskilling values xp can be changed 12:18:45 there is no need that low skills have to be as cheap as they are now 12:19:08 The fact that skill A is worth less/more than skill B at the same level will stay. 12:20:03 hmm? 12:26:28 -!- Pseudonut has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:27:49 what do you mean by that? 12:28:22 making it not directly be based on XP values is an even worse idea than reskilling :| 12:30:04 Not all skills are equal, at probably any given level. This makes skill boosts (no matter how they're realised) skewed. 12:30:27 skill increases are linear though 12:30:55 skill boosts* 12:31:08 the trade-off between having 6 more fighting and having 6 more of a magic school is an actual decision 12:31:19 or between having 6 conj or 6 ench or whatever 12:31:26 it doesn't matter what level the skills are 12:32:56 there's still some non-equalness there 12:33:31 But as I said, we'd just be discussing different problem if we had went that path. 12:34:05 For example, what do with skills beyond 27 (new titles?, different effects?). Perhaps people would only boost very few skills, that'd be bad too. Stuff like that. 12:34:06 there are a ton of skills that are about as useful at different things 12:35:20 I think the idea of trading some skill for another has a lot of appeal. More than a plain skill gift. (Disclaimer: personal opinion etc.) 12:35:34 Self-targeted missiles have no messages (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2800) by OG17 12:35:46 there is the opportunity cost of not boosting another skill, naturally 12:36:31 Oh, there's no doubt that the skill gift system comes with some choices. 12:37:05 -!- galehar has quit [Quit: Page closed] 12:37:17 and it's my opinion that the choices are more fair than anything experience-based 12:38:13 I don't really see that, but I may miss something here. 12:38:57 remember when I traded 3 levels of ench for 14 of air? 12:39:18 TGWi: I don't understand why you're campaigning against the xp so much. It's just one natural approach to skills. 12:40:13 because I played with it, I don't think it's a good idea, and I don't see a better solution than using a different system 12:40:20 The basic idea is to allow people to redistribute their skills. How to achieve that is purely a technical matter. 12:40:23 tgwi: trading 3 levels of ench for 14 of air is the same tradeoff you would have when training skills normally, without reskilling 12:41:04 ench requires just over 4x as much xp than air? 12:41:04 Cryp71c: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them. 12:41:07 !messages 12:41:07 (1/2) dpeg said (1d 18h 48m 11s ago): The AC/SH DS mutation is probably too weak, since the SH model has been changed? 12:41:12 cryp71c: huh? 12:41:13 !messages 12:41:13 (1/1) dpeg said (7h 26m 9s ago): My current DSFi has flames of Gehenna. I can use them without cooldown and without MP cost. The hunger cost is noticeable, but I am still machine-gun firing my way through the unwashed masses. Bug or intent? 12:41:21 elliptic, how does 3levels of ench == 14 of air? 12:41:24 TGWi: I guess everyone has this sentiment, but I feel I am more trying to think out of the box than you. (Here I mean that I am trying to find similarities and overarching goals.) 12:41:39 cryp71c: getting a skill from 14 to 17 = getting a skill from 0 to 14, apparently 12:41:39 Cryp71c: 17 -> 14 ench leads to 0 -> 14 air 12:41:51 (with +1 apt in air) 12:42:00 and elliptic: firstly, natural gain isn't generally so kind about letting you assign your exp precisely 12:42:22 ah ok 12:42:28 I am not bound to the xp system, far from it. But the skill gift system is only second best to me. I think reskilling has an awesome strategic potential, so we should try to get it right. If we fail, we take something else instead. 12:42:52 elliptic: because you can't just save up 14 levels of exp; you have to spend a long time playing radically differently in a way you're not as adept with to significantly change the direction of your skills 12:42:57 tgwi: it is pretty good though... I agree that reskilling is far more convenient, but careful victory dancing gets the same results 12:43:13 tgwi: learn to turn off skills and victory dance 12:43:18 elliptic: and reskilling loses 10% xp. 12:43:46 and it still gets you 4x the benefits! 12:43:53 this is why exp is not a good thing to fiddle around with 12:44:05 tgwi: huh? as I said, this as nothing to do with reskilling 12:44:10 please explain, I don't understand what you mean 12:44:15 it is a flaw in the skill system, maybe 12:44:21 yes, perhaps that 12:44:27 but not reskilling 12:44:32 victory dancing is the flaw in the skill system 12:44:46 TGWi: that's besides the point here (and we all know it) 12:45:01 I'm not a huge fan of reskilling because it makes it far too easy to swap skills around (would be better if it wasn't instant) 12:45:21 but you are complaining about the skill and exp system rewarding diversification 12:45:24 not about reskilling 12:45:29 it's not beside the point; this is like saying "X is okay because hillbilly sting gets the same results" 12:45:37 elliptic: that will come (non-instant). I really like being able to swap skills around... it may be too cheap at the moment, etc. but there's many ways how we can put brakes on it. 12:45:43 dpeg, throw flames current operation is intent, but its flat out boring since it operates on the exact same principles as spit poison or breathe flames (except breathe flame is a bolt) I'd rather have something else in the fire facets anyways, but hadn't come up with a good alternative. 12:46:16 tgwi: victory dancing up a skill isn't exactly unusual behavior in crawl 12:48:13 if I get ench to 14, I will turn it off and work on other skills, and it won't go much higher than 14 12:49:58 balrugs probably shouldnt' generate with demon whips of freezing 12:56:59 Cryp71c: I defined my space bar to do "af." :) 12:57:04 Cryp71c: how about an innate fire brand to unbranded weapons and unarmed attacks? 12:57:57 Wensley_, could have potential 12:58:00 dpeg, :P 12:58:28 -!- monky has joined ##crawl-dev 12:58:43 Cryp71c: we could have several fire ranged attacks, if we distinguish them properly with the tools we have: cooldown; MP cost; hunger. 12:59:12 dpeg and tgwi: if you ignore reskilling, how useful was ash as a god in your games? 12:59:30 -!- Wensley_ is now known as Wensley 12:59:39 Wensley_: passive detection was nice to have sometimes, portal detection especially 12:59:54 dpeg, those distinguish the cost, not the attack itself 13:00:00 scrying was pretty cool when I used it in zot 13:00:05 Cryp71c: yes, but it will play differently 13:00:22 dpeg, imo, c/d mp and hunger are insufficient to distinguish between two fire based ranged mutations, especially with so many other mechanics at our disposal. 13:00:26 Cryp71c: of course, the power with a long cooldown should do more damage (or bigger radius) than the other one 13:00:38 scrying is actually more useful than I thought (you won't use it on every level, of course) 13:00:43 tgwi: did it feel like enough to justify the god, or do you feel like people will choose her primarily for the skill retraining? 13:00:45 does DS still have fire breath? 13:01:07 Wensley: probably not enough to justify a full god, no 13:01:16 Wensley: the detection is not finished, though. 13:01:36 are there new proposals on the wiki to improve her detection? 13:01:57 Currently, you just know "there's a monster" or "there's an item". We can improve on both, and we really should for monsters. 13:02:44 giving an HD range would be neat 13:02:53 TGWi: yes, for example. 13:03:00 different colors for various ranges 13:03:05 I really like the curse-minigame: you have to pay close attention to your curse/remove curse resources. And the question of what to (un)curse is interesting for quite some time, imo. 13:03:07 ooh, that would probably be cooler than just seeing their genus 13:03:16 Wensley: yes, genus is so strong... 13:03:25 I don't like genus-detection but coloring by powerfulness would be great 13:03:32 maybe by experience value instead of HD 13:03:37 if you want to know more, there's always scyring 13:03:51 TGWi: xp is often a better measure than HD, but neither is ideal 13:04:35 dpeg: have you lost all of your armor slots as a monstrous demonspawn yet? curious how that might change your perception of the curse game 13:04:45 Wensley: not yet, XL 17. 13:04:55 it would be nice if hands could be cursed 13:04:57 Wensley: I am bound in weapon and magic, not armour. 13:05:07 preventing you from wielding weapons 13:05:15 TGWi: but how? (As a gameplay mechanic, I mean) 13:05:23 dpeg: did you choose to not go unarmed specifically because of ash? 13:05:34 dpeg: read curse weapon with nothing wielded :P 13:05:59 weapon-cursing would work a lot better if hands could be cursed, and especially if butchering were possible with blunt weapons 13:06:02 Wensley: no, not really. I started with axes and found a vampiric one. Although I wondered whether I should dump all my Axes into UC. Then again, there's also my shield :O 13:06:41 dpeg: it wouldn't be that hard to grasp, I think 13:06:50 TGWi: I can see hands-cursing, but blunt weapons not butchering seems... I don't know. 13:06:58 axes aren't really that great with a shield anyway 13:07:06 dpeg: I do support tgwi's idea of cursing hands to prevent wielding. it gives parity to unarmed fighters of ash and also expands the definition of cursed, which I think is needed 13:07:30 TGWi: I think I prefer that blunt weapons are just not as good in some cases. 13:07:33 in general I feel like ash should reward you for more "curses" beyond just "you can't take off items" 13:07:43 Wensley: I have heard that before :) 13:07:59 passive IDing is cool 13:08:03 And I don't think it's bad, but whatever you come up with, it should be simple. 13:08:04 it is a sort of arbitrary definition of curse, even if it is a roguelike staple :P 13:08:12 TGWi: yes, but can also be improved upon. 13:08:15 maybe the boundedness should have at least one more visible effect 13:08:40 it's probably not worthless but exp and piety gain are not the most obvious things 13:08:52 Well, if you can bound hands, why not any armour slot where you don't wear anything, too? Same with rings. (Curse neck, ring finger etc.) 13:09:01 dpeg: someone on the wiki suggested that you look at the negative properties of randarts and use those to help determine cursed status. why should wielding a +MUT sword be less of a curse than wielding a +9 freezing katana that you can't put down? 13:09:18 dpeg: because there's no un-ringed combat skill 13:09:30 TGWi: but it'd be as thematic, and as problematic for the player. 13:09:31 and no un-booted auxiliary attacks 13:09:51 not opposing it, don't worry, just saying cursed hands are a bigger thing :P 13:11:17 un-booted auxes: talons, hooves 13:11:27 i think we should just drop the cursed weapon aspect, armor / jewellery works fine 13:12:12 some quirks there, of course, but the cursed weapon is weird for transmuters, stave users, ranged users, blunt users... 13:12:15 can enhancer staves be cursed now, by the way? 13:12:19 there was this idea that cursed jewellery can repel magic attacks, and cursed armour pieces repel melee attacks. 13:12:20 yes 13:12:29 elliptic: not sure, but they will before release. 13:12:43 !seen kilobyte 13:12:43 I last saw kilobyte at Tue Nov 2 13:17:06 2010 UTC (4h 55m 37s ago) saying and its not anywhere near 4-5k for armour, sometimes even non-randarts on ##crawl. 13:12:47 or - they have a cursedness status now at least 13:12:50 not sure if curse wep works on them 13:14:05 the only real issues I have with cursed weapon are the ways that it encourages cutting weapons (for butchering) and discourages unarmed combat 13:14:07 oh, this reminds me that currently ashenzari + weapons of holy wrath = bad combination 13:14:11 since they can't be cursed 13:14:18 not sure if this is a problem, but it is a bit strange 13:14:40 I think that's fine 13:14:45 elliptic: we could make a special rule... so that Ash allows cursed holy weapons. Do you think that would add or detract? 13:14:47 wensley: by mid-late game you can easily survive without butchering, though 13:15:23 If I'd find an endgame worthy non-axe, I'd just switch with my DS. 13:15:25 elliptic: true enough. I still want some love for unarmed fighters and transmuters 13:15:36 dpeg: why? if holy weapons can't be cursed, they can't be cursed, and ash shouldn't change that 13:16:03 unarmed is pretty endgame-worthy 13:16:47 I don't think we should bother encouraging ash to overrule tso, I thought we already agreed that she can't influence anything, and that would to my mind especially discourage her from interfering with empowerment granted by other gods 13:16:47 dpeg: I think it is okay that cursed holy weapons can't exist even with ash... it just feels a bit strange because holy weapons being uncursable is nearly never relevant aside from this 13:17:09 it isn't something that people are generally aware of 13:17:43 fair enough, so not cursed holy weapons with Ash 13:17:56 that reminds me, can we please change the ash scroll genning ability to use scrolls of paper instead of remove curse 13:18:03 it is far more flavorful 13:18:10 monky: so I guess I should give up both Axes and Shields then 13:18:26 also I think it is fine that Tm + Ash is an awful combination 13:18:29 dpeg: axes and shields isn't that great anyway, since you can't use any of the big axes 13:18:36 since transmutations imply a certain amount of freedom 13:18:50 getting regular unarmed combat to work well with ash would be nice though 13:18:58 elliptic: so you're against the idea of cursed empty slots? 13:19:07 ah, you're not 13:19:13 no, I like them, at least for hands 13:19:30 but Tm of ash would still be awful because of all the forms you can't use in cursed armour 13:19:35 yes 13:19:37 (esp. spider form) 13:19:40 and I think that's okay 13:19:43 that's okay, as you say 13:19:54 good point regarding transmuters 13:20:03 let cursed armor meld (and come back cursed afterwards), kthx 13:20:27 though Tm of ash wouldn't be that bad if you just forget about getting armour-bound 13:20:41 ash is perfectly playable without getting triple bondage 13:20:46 does zin put you under penance for casting tmut spells? 13:20:50 no 13:20:52 I found that even one bound is good. 13:21:04 well, alter self is presumably bad :) 13:21:09 ??spider form 13:21:10 spider form[1/1]: No weapons or armour, but you get swiftness, a venomous bite, and a huge EV bonus (better than sprigganness!). You hit somewhat harder too, but the real draw is you don't get hit back. You also gain five dexterity, which is nice. Spider form has 2 AC, plus one for every 6 levels of poison magic. 13:21:19 hmm 13:21:24 ice form can wear cap and cloak, right? 13:21:32 ??ice form 13:21:33 ice form[1/1]: +20% HP, rF-, rC+++, rPois. Melds all armour except cloaks, but gives 5-12 AC (and has synergy with {ozocubu's armour}). 12 base damage with freezing brand. Players in ice form can float through water, but get no aquatic bonuses and can't reach submerged items. Found in Book of Changes, L4 ice/tmut. 13:21:40 only cloak I guess 13:21:49 i wonder if you count as cursed wearing a cursed cloak in ice form 13:22:13 interesting 13:22:27 dpeg: in any case, I'd like it if we considered expanding the definition of "cursed" to at least encompass any drawback that the player willingly burdens himself with, not just items that stick to you (but including those, of course, as the bread-and-butter "curses" of crawl) 13:23:20 Wensley: if you come up with a system, I'll look at it. (Seriously, that is.) 13:23:25 certainly 13:23:31 this is something that I think ash really needs 13:23:49 The current system has the advantage of being simple. How would you value HUNGER vs cursed vs MUT, for example? 13:24:09 I'm considering that 13:25:42 mostly it would have to encompass things that are rather unambiguously bad, although there will likely be room for debate for most of them (what if I WANT to get hungry faster, what if I WANT glow, what if I WANT random berserk/tele, etc) 13:27:33 hunger is a rather small drawback compared with most of the others 13:27:52 and random berserk or teleport can be negated with other items, so you'd have to watch for that 13:27:57 and nobody wants glow :) 13:28:14 xom does, but we've already decided that this is for ash worshipers :P 13:28:51 xom wants glow? first I heard of it 13:28:59 elliptic: yes, this is why I am somewaht sceptical 13:29:01 I mean, I'm sure it amuses him, but I doubt it is worth it at all 13:29:11 xom loves it when you mutate 13:29:24 especially if it cripples you in terrible ways 13:29:31 am I wrong? 13:29:34 right, but you are still crippled :) 13:29:47 * Wensley thinks this is hilarious! 13:29:55 yes, playing xom is pretty crippling 13:30:53 I'll write something up on the wiki, but brb for now 13:31:53 -!- Pseudonut has joined ##crawl-dev 13:34:57 !tell Wensley there is another issue: do we really want to encourage people to wield that negative randart weapon for exploration, only to switch to somethign else in battle? That can be circumvented by giving piety only when something actually happens (glow, rage)... but it is not trivial :) 13:34:58 dpeg: OK, I'll let Wensley know. 13:35:09 -!- Wensley has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:41:32 back later 13:42:58 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 13:43:43 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 13:47:36 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 13:52:09 !messages 13:52:09 (1/1) dpeg said (17m 12s ago): there is another issue: do we really want to encourage people to wield that negative randart weapon for exploration, only to switch to somethign else in battle? That can be circumvented by giving piety only when something actually happens (glow, rage)... but it is not trivial :) 13:53:18 Wensley: do you see what I mean? 13:53:56 dpeg: from my experience with playing ash, I feel like increased piety for exploration while cursed is very transparent. the purpose of my proposal will likely be in-combat effects only... like what you were referring to before, with the ability to resist magical/melee attacks depending upon what is cursed. writing it up as we speak 13:56:23 Wensley: ah, I see 13:59:05 -!- Twinge has quit [] 13:59:09 Wensley: i'm not sure this really fits with the god's flavor 13:59:31 Eronarn: I know you were also interested in expanding the definition of curses, what would you like to see instead 14:02:35 Wensley: after thinking about it more i realized it didn't really fit the god and would be a lot of work for minimal benefit 14:03:48 i think that ash should be: A) a minimum of restrictions B) not very useful in combat, and thus 'worse' than other gods C) strategic benefits related to information and skills, to make up for being less directly useful 14:04:13 I know you were vehement that this is a god of divinations rather than a god of curses, but as long as curses are a part of this god I feel like they could stand to be expanded, both for the enhancement of flavor and to make the god more interesting. I'll keep your comments in mind, though 14:04:47 Wensley: i think a god of cursing things is totally viable but that ash isn't it conceptually or mechanically right now so it'd really work better as a different god 14:07:24 we've already established that ash is a long way from complete. I don't expect my proposal to be directly implemented, although I do hope it will spur some discussion over the direction we're taking this god in 14:08:38 Wensley: given the direction the god has been going in that seems extremely unlikely, good luck though! 14:08:45 there was this idea of using xp or HD in order to indicate monster toughness 14:08:57 I guess this should be relative to the player rather than absolute 14:09:26 dpeg: sort of a "con" system in this way could be useful in other areas of the game as well 14:09:32 con? 14:10:18 it's a term from the early days of MMOs, where "con" is short for "consider" where the game does some variety of evaluation of an enemy relative to the player's current abilities 14:10:37 I've never played any MMO :) 14:10:46 no prob, most aren't worth playing :) 14:11:03 thanks for explanation, and yes, that's something I'd want here 14:12:50 I very much support this kind of idea for ash, although used in other places it could change the game for new players (for good as well as for bad). for instance, if you *knew* immediately that an orc warrior was much more dangerous than a normal orc, many fewer players would be murdered by them 14:14:09 Wensley: it's quite hard to get it right.... players 've been asking for better monster reports all the time. A la "This monster can kill you in three hits." etc. All of this is very complicated :) 14:15:29 I was thinking of along the following lines: Use monster xp as a first measure. Reduce reported threat level depending on kill count (in this game). (If you've killed two ogres, the third is less bad news than your first wyvern.) 14:17:12 kill count doesn't work well in extended endgame because you kill a lot of dangerous stuff too 14:21:13 -!- ortoslon has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:22:43 kill count also breaks a bit on speedruns 14:23:25 speedrunners presumably won't kill that much, leaving them with false positives 14:23:51 monky: speed runners are not the target audience here 14:27:18 -!- valrus_ has joined ##crawl-dev 14:29:11 -!- valrus has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:40:23 dpeg: I think a measure of depth would work better than xp or hd or kill count. take the current level the player is on, and color the enemy according to how out of depth it is. depth is already an inherent measure of difficulty for monsters, and this helps the player evaluate detected enemies in the context of the current level 14:41:41 yes, whatever 14:41:52 should be possible to come up with something sensible :) 14:42:31 experience is a measure of difficulty, no? 14:42:45 if it's not then there's a problem with the experience formula :P 14:43:48 yeah I remember writing a bit about that (in relation to piety for difficulty) 14:44:25 basically I see no problem with tying "threat" to exp, and then fixing that if there's a problem 14:45:13 experience would work well too, but then there's a question of how to "calibrate" the color of the monster by assigning a "default" color for most monsters on the level according to their experience value, and then color monsters worth more experience differently. depth has the advantage of already providing mechanisms for doing this 14:48:23 Wensley: how do you mean? What colours? 14:50:35 -!- hashc has joined ##crawl-dev 14:54:48 Grey (no challenge) Blue (Barely a challenge) Green (just below average) Yellow (Average) Orange (slightly above average) Red (Quite above Average) Dark Red (Very Dangerous) 14:54:54 Seems like a logical color progression 14:59:45 doesn't need that many colours I think 15:01:16 grey < blue < lightred < red 15:01:21 easy enough to remember 15:02:02 TGWi: probably red < lightred 15:02:19 magenta imo 15:02:42 I agree that only few tiers are needed 15:07:28 it's silly to use a billion tiers, because this is one aspect of one god and people should know what it means without hitting the documentation 15:07:51 red, lightred, magenta, done 15:09:09 more tiers do also not mean more information, contrary to expectations 15:12:31 use the visible light spectrum, red -> orange -> yellow -> green -> cyan -> blue -> purplety, that's realistic! 15:14:32 Adeon: but which side of the rainbow is more dangerous? 15:15:57 the dangerous radiations have shorter wavelengths so the purple side should be more dangerous 15:16:11 imo use grey -> yellow -> red -> dark red 15:16:16 like glow 15:17:07 cas\unfoog: sounds good 15:17:09 Adeon: :) 15:18:56 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: cheers] 15:27:47 elliptic: cursed items on melded slots still count 15:28:16 kilobyte: my point was that you can't cast spider form with cursed armour on 15:28:40 ah 15:28:53 I wonder what's the point in that restriction 15:28:57 you can cast dragon form though I think 15:29:08 it did matter before melding was implemented 15:29:10 not sure exactly which forms permit cursed melding 15:29:30 yeah, probably the issues with cursed melding should be rethought sometime 15:29:39 yeah, this non-transparency is another reason for scrapping that rule 15:30:44 just let forms meld cursed items, it's not an interesting drawback 99% of the time since remove curse is so common, and it's a nasty surprise for people who don't know 15:31:29 hrm, dpeg left 15:31:42 oh that reminds me 15:31:54 the slots available to various forms don't really make any sense 15:32:15 ??statue form 15:32:16 statue form[1/2]: Grants great AC (17 + earth/2), a 50% HP boost, and +2 Str, but makes the base action cost of an action 15 instead of 10, similar to the slow spell. Available slots: weapon, cloak, helmet. Provides rPois, rElec, rN+. Huge unarmed damage: base = unarmed_skill + 12 + str. In statue form, {stoneskin} adds more AC than normal. 15:32:21 ^^ the worst offender 15:32:21 I feel bad about changing Archmagi without discussing this beyond a brief talk on ##crawl 15:32:32 kilobyte: i am using archmagi in my current game, it is probably broken 15:32:55 with RoR so rare now, you're in many games only giving up a dot of resist to get wizardry and a power boost on almost everything 15:33:57 it also seems arbitrary that the power boost doesn't get a couple spells, but that's a separate issue from the balance issue 15:34:00 the power formula means that x1.5 ends up being just +20 or so most of the time, but then, you'd need a great deal of skills to get the same effect 15:34:55 what I would do is: make wizardry and spell-enhancement into randart properties, make robe of the archmagi an unrand 15:35:28 i don't know if the rarity was tweaked but it's been quite common to find one 15:37:23 may be an interesting idea 15:38:15 BTW, when by fixed the unrand/fixedart generation bug, he slashed the chance by a factor of 4, and it seems to me this was not an intentional change 15:38:41 since at least IMO it was the relative chance of several items that was a problem 16:05:00 -!- Wensley has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:05:56 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:07:15 kilobyte: i think it would open up a lot of interesting things that aren't quite possible right now 16:07:55 like kiku's painbrand could be pain+nec enhancement, basically turning any weapon into a staff of necromancy 16:10:18 yay xl 26 mummies with that 16:10:38 except at the point you can possibly get to xl26 as a mummy necromancy is beyond worthless 16:11:21 fixing that would be nice 16:14:47 ok, Haunt is now a spell that's usable vs demons 16:15:18 FR: mummies can't haunt 16:16:20 TGWi: and what's the point in that? 16:17:28 was "bugs are paralyzed by curare" an unquestioned brainfart or an actual thing? 16:18:03 -!- syllogism has quit [] 16:18:45 I guess mostly a fail in communication 16:18:54 the passive breathing part sort of makes sense so I was thinking someone wrote paralysis instead of slowing and no one noticed 16:19:04 otherwise I have no idea 16:19:28 a discussion on c-r-d used the term paralysis because that's how curare works in RL 16:19:52 it is astonishingly silly right now 16:20:01 and it's somehow been extended to unbreathing monsters too 16:20:48 so for those who need actual muscles for breathing (ie, anything that relies on lungs or gills) the paralysis also causes asphyxiation, for those breathing through the skin or via tracheae, merely the paralysis 16:21:24 but it makes no sense to have the effect on insects be worse than those on vertebrates 16:21:26 so everything should be slowed and only stuff with lungs should take asphixiation damage 16:21:28 indeed 16:21:55 also asphyxiation has a y, you'd think I'd have picked up on that by now 16:21:56 yeah, or paralyzed -- but that would be a balance issue 16:24:10 the whole thing seems out of place anyway, it makes curare go from living/unliving to lungs/tracheas(/unbreathing)/unliving 16:24:25 it's complexity for the sake of realism and a bunch of bugs breathe actively anyway 16:25:29 anyway I put this all on the wiki a couple days back, if it hasn't been seen 16:25:40 made a page for needles 16:26:03 why do blowguns use throwing skill anyway 16:29:58 I think it was better split too, it was a little overspecific but there's not really any overlap between the two thematically or practically 16:30:18 replace blowguns with hand crossbows 16:30:24 change skill to crossbows 16:30:26 problem solved 16:30:33 just makes a throwing guy really good with blowguns 16:30:50 just makes a crossbow guy really good with blowguns 16:30:51 I dunno 16:31:49 throwing makes little sense with blowguns, yeah 16:32:05 they're mostly a mouth-powered crossbows 16:32:44 that wasn't a joke response; blowguns make zero sense in the dungeon, if we want something like them, have it be hand crossbows that fire needles 16:32:58 it fits kobolds having them better, too 16:33:03 it's not a question of sense 16:33:26 every blowgun in popular culture is the size of a drinking straw, you know this 16:33:33 the things aren't actually four feet long in-game 16:34:00 'i guess that's why katanas are so good' 16:35:06 I see no problems with blowguns: note that they do exactly 0 damage 16:35:21 their only function is to deliver some sort of poison 16:35:44 by the way, it bothers me that curare is so good with no skill at all 16:35:49 and the other needles are just terrible 16:36:08 it bothers me that other needles clown cerebov at high skill 16:37:33 curare could come in consistently smaller stacks though 16:40:12 also put curare on mantis, forgot about that 17:14:32 -!- Soadreqm has quit [Quit: fell through shaft] 17:29:00 so spriggans can outrun hasted monsters now... 17:34:33 st_: yeah, I pointed that out when the haste nerf was discussed but people didn't seem to think it was a big deal 17:37:20 so can anyone with good move speed 17:37:39 quite few of real threats are both speed 10 and have haste 17:38:17 what about the ones that are speed 9 and have haste 17:38:58 uniques still have unchanged speed, right? 17:39:22 a few of them really should have speed reduced also 17:39:40 gloorx and mennas at least 17:40:20 also boris should be speed 9 for consistency 17:40:40 no he shouldn't 17:40:44 is Boris a lich or an ancient lich? 17:40:47 lich 17:40:50 or in between? 17:41:04 if he were an ancient lich, he would have had speed 12 17:41:07 there's no data on his type 17:41:11 @?boris 17:41:12 Boris (05L) | Speed: 10 | HD: 22 | Health: 154 | AC/EV: 12/10 | Damage: 25, 1513(drain) | Flags: 07undead, evil, spellcaster, see invisible | Res: 06magic(322), 02cold, 10elec++, 03poison | XP: 7917 | Sp: iron shot (3d37), b.cold (3d32), invisibility, animate dead, destruction orb (8d17). 17:41:16 @?lich 17:41:16 lich (15L) | Speed: 10 | HD: 20 | Health: 60-97 | AC/EV: 10/10 | Damage: 1513(drain) | Flags: 07undead, evil, spellcaster, see invisible | Res: 06magic(293), 02cold++, 03poison | XP: 3422 | Sp: b.cold (3d29), paralyse, greater demon, animate dead, iron shot (3d34), teleport self / b.draining (3d24), animate dead, summon undead, throw frost (3d11), crystal spear (3d40) / b.fire (3d29), confuse, haste, b.dr.. 17:41:24 he's a fat ancient lich, clearly 17:41:43 (because in real life, fat people are slower to do EVERYTHING, even read) 17:41:50 @?ancient lich 17:41:50 ancient lich (16L) | Speed: 12 | HD: 27 | Health: 81-132 | AC/EV: 20/10 | Damage: 2013(drain) | Flags: 07undead, evil, spellcaster, see invisible | Res: 06magic(504), 05fire, 02cold++, 10elec++, 03poison | XP: 10684 | Sp: b.cold (3d37), paralyse, greater demon, animate dead, iron shot (3d44), teleport self / b.draining (3d30), animate dead, summon undead, throw frost (3d13), crystal spear (3d48) / b.f.. 17:42:21 ugh 17:42:26 those stats are terrible 17:42:56 boris: 2 AC more than a lich! also a second attack! and rElec! 17:43:14 why? because consistency is for suckers 17:43:15 no rF makes him look like a regular lich 17:43:29 liches used to have rElec, it was removed from them but not Boris 17:43:31 boris does some things that are different than other monsters? what is this 17:43:35 stop ruining crawl!!!1 17:43:41 yeah, he used to be much closer to a lich 17:43:54 it doesn't matter; he's boris, not a lich 17:43:56 -!- cas\unfoog is now known as casmith789 17:43:58 unique uniques are horrible 17:44:19 i hope you're not being sarcastic; they are 17:44:28 I don't care whether he is actually a lich, but people like to haste when fighting him 17:44:33 so his speed should be reduced 17:44:46 elliptic: i really hate the logic on that :I 17:45:28 eronarn: not my favorite logic either, but it is the logic behind the other speed changes 17:45:48 then undo the other speed changes and nerf in other ways 17:46:00 or am I crazy 17:46:07 see also: every unique appearing after about d:14 17:46:20 eronarn it's like you're designing a tabletop rpg or something 17:46:26 crawl is a tactical roguelike 17:46:40 there's nothing inconsistent about a tougher monster having higher stats than a weaker monster 17:46:41 -!- eith has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:47:16 OG17: yeah just like how powerful humans become immune to lightning 17:47:23 yes, exactly that 17:47:57 elliptic: i think we should only touch monster speeds if dropping the monster's speed would be like a 2-3 point drop from right now 17:48:06 if it's just a point, don't bother 17:48:39 eronarn: that's what I thought originally 17:49:16 i think this isn't even strictly a haste thing - some monsters are just too fast 17:49:16 only decrease speeds that are at least 12, and don't bring them below 10 17:57:08 uhh I just tried to reskill stuff and now my terminal is black, it's not crashed but I can't do anything 18:00:11 Napkin: can you kill my session? 18:00:32 oh hm it's asking me to do it myself 18:00:37 clouded (L24 SpRe) (Lair:2) 18:11:59 Niiice 18:12:18 what was that? 18:12:48 a crash 18:12:52 !lm clouded x=type 18:12:52 12244. [2010-11-02] [verb=crash] clouded the Sorcerer (L24 SpRe) ? (Lair:2) 18:14:53 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 18:44:11 -!- valrus_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:50:20 -!- blackflare has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:55:20 -!- blackflare has joined ##crawl-dev 18:57:56 things that would be kind of cool: if getting abyssed in a zig didn't mean you just blew a ton of gold for nothing 19:04:08 maybe each level could be bought separately 19:12:34 1 gold, then 2 gold, then 4 gold, then 8 gold... 19:12:44 zig is infinite but you need the money to continue :D 19:13:29 by the 64th zig level you need more gold than there are molecules in the universe 19:13:57 N72981 still manages to get to zig:400 somehow 19:14:28 maybe he uses infinite nemelex piety to gain infinite bazaars 19:14:44 and then buys up all the scrolls of acquirement 19:14:45 and acquires gold 19:14:59 zigs greater than level 27 feature test spawners 19:15:33 zig 30 has OCS spawners 19:16:03 zig 30 has test spawner spawners 19:16:13 zig 40 has 100 pan lords named cerebov, but only six are the real cerebov 19:16:36 the others are all gloorx 19:17:05 Cerebov calls upon the powers of Hell! x34 19:17:29 The fire orb glows red! x40 19:18:19 are there zot levels in zigs? 19:18:28 there should be 19:19:00 FR: zig levels in zigs 19:19:11 infinite recursion 19:19:41 end up on zig:5:21:9:19 19:21:43 there are drac levels 19:21:52 some zot monsters appear on other levels too 19:22:02 e.g. elec golems in air, orbs of fire in fire 19:22:22 have a zot level full of orb guardians 19:22:23 I remember drac levels from the few zigs I've tried, but not air levels or fire levels 19:22:27 FR: aerie levels 19:22:32 nothing but a bunch of ball lightnings 19:22:43 spore levels, hundreds of giant spores 19:22:44 insubstantial wisp levels 19:22:58 or just asterisk levels: spores, ball lightnings, and orbs of fire 19:23:07 @??silver star 19:23:07 silver star (15*) | Speed: 20 | HD: 30 | Health: 150 | AC/EV: 20/20 | Flags: 08holy, see invisible, lev | Res: 13magic(immune), 04hellfire+++, 02cold, 10elec++, 09poison+++ | XP: 11717. 19:23:10 and silver stars 19:23:18 @??silver star 19:23:18 silver star (15*) | Speed: 20 | HD: 30 | Health: 150 | AC/EV: 20/20 | Flags: 08holy, see invisible, lev | Res: 13magic(immune), 04hellfire+++, 02cold, 10elec++, 09poison+++ | XP: 11717. 19:23:22 ??silver star 19:23:22 I don't have a page labeled silver_star in my learndb. 19:23:27 what do they do? 19:23:33 they are zin's cronies 19:23:38 @??blessed toe 19:23:38 blessed toe (08*) | Speed: 12 (move: 200%) | HD: 14 | Health: 77 | AC/EV: 50/1 | Flags: 08holy, see invisible, lev, !sil | Res: 13magic(immune), 02cold, 10elec++, 03poison | XP: 5431 | Sp: holies, heal other, holy word. 19:23:40 they recite you, I believe 19:24:14 also fun for asterisk levels: tentacle segments 19:24:26 oh, good idea 19:24:27 and fog machines but only for tgw 19:26:44 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 19:29:09 how about some iood statues? 19:29:20 or maybe the giant spores could know iood 19:29:27 yes 19:29:33 guys, this is the best zig level ever 19:29:51 enter the level, spend five minutes waiting while all the spores and ball lightnings immediately explode and kill all the orbs of fire 19:30:28 crawl needs cutscenes 19:30:54 cutscenes would be great for banishing uniques 19:30:55 long uninterruptable cutscenes 19:31:12 quicktime events 19:31:15 every time you cast haste you are subjected to a ten-minute cutscene 19:31:28 The anaconda constricts you! Mash the keyboard to free yourself! 19:31:52 it's a good thing we're having this discussion in -dev 19:31:58 otherwise they might think we're not being serious 19:32:05 heaven forbid 19:32:07 :| 19:32:12 this is the late shift, when all the good ideas happen 19:32:39 ascii cutscenes a la the df intro 19:32:48 forget balance, forget interface, forget ash and felids, crawl needs asterisk levels and cutscenes 19:32:59 asterisk levels? 19:33:29 "my god, it's full of stars" 19:33:32 zig levels with nothing but spores, ball lightnings, orbs of fire, silver stars, blessed toes, and tentacle segments 19:33:41 oh 19:34:00 actually that could be a really cool room in a sprint map 19:34:11 "you hear hundrds of far-off explosions" 19:34:25 fr: explosion levels 19:34:26 kind of a waste of space, no/ 19:34:26 ? 19:34:39 valrus: you lack faith 19:34:39 also: torment and hellfire levels 19:47:19 -!- Pseudonut has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:19:52 -!- upsy has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:38:18 Arrow keys do not work in console version (OS X) (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2801) by balthamos 20:49:23 -!- Pseudonut has joined ##crawl-dev 20:56:02 -!- Mu_ has quit [Quit: Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place.] 21:00:17 I agree that sprint maps should have more noise 21:16:42 -!- hashc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:17:21 -!- hashc has joined ##crawl-dev 21:25:56 -!- blackflare has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:31:11 -!- blackflare has joined ##crawl-dev 21:40:22 -!- hashc has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:58:27 -!- valrus has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:00:26 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 22:41:04 -!- TGWi is now known as TGWnarn 22:42:57 -!- TGWnarn is now known as TGWi 23:05:15 -!- kilobyte has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:24:27 -!- TGWi has left ##crawl-dev 23:39:51 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:53:26 -!- kilobyte has joined ##crawl-dev 23:57:55 -!- kilobyte has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:59:37 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]