00:49:46 -!- Wensley has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.17/2009122204]] 02:34:17 -!- monky has quit [Quit: hello] 02:42:35 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 02:50:32 Eronarn: there are many statues with different spells 02:50:39 Eronarn: but it should do _something_ 03:20:53 -!- Twilight-1 has joined ##crawl-dev 03:20:53 -!- Guest78299 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:48:00 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 04:49:46 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 05:02:07 -!- lys has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:02:15 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 05:02:26 !seen wensley 05:02:27 I last saw Wensley at Fri Oct 29 05:49:46 2010 UTC (4h 12m 41s ago) quitting with message Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.17/2009122204]. 05:09:26 -!- NoBrainHere has joined ##crawl-dev 05:09:42 0hai. 05:11:02 I think there is "no" need for non-ASCII support. Just refer to Appdata\roaming as %appdata%. :( 05:11:46 Keep all the appdata references as %appdata% 05:12:07 then username just won't get in the way 05:13:41 you mean, fopen() and the like resolve variables on win32? 05:14:56 yes, that may fix the poo 05:16:00 1... 05:16:57 * NoBrainHere is 4enraged 05:17:49 this bug just 10sucks 05:18:53 that would break reporting the file name in error messages, as we would have to carry both the expanded and non-expanded version 05:18:56 but lemme take a look 05:19:53 also, a number of other functions will fail if the directory contains any non-ASCII character, including outside %appdata% 05:20:21 somehow, including even those representable in the system's "code page" 05:21:19 Well, maybe not within the game, maybe use some handler that will handle %appdata% references 05:22:20 OR, make something that makes a dummy profile with badly interpreted name 05:23:52 or, make !appdata! that becomes system's %appdata% 05:25:22 * kilobyte wonders how all other operating systems, including toys like Syllable, could get this right without requiring use of incompatible inconvenient API but Microsoft can't. 05:26:16 Broken code handlers, multiple encodings... 05:26:20 right... let's make an USB stick/torrent/etc with files named %appdata% and see how programs that try to access it get haxored. 05:26:21 so gotta use a handler 05:27:50 -!- NoBrainHere has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.11/20101012113537]] 05:33:19 -!- NoBrainHere has joined ##crawl-dev 05:33:23 0-0 05:33:49 Cannot incarcerate this poop bug 05:35:26 10RAGE 05:36:57 -!- eith has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:37:14 NoBrainHere: why are you so loud? 05:40:42 4A7n8y9t11h12i8n0g that annoys me - makes me mega-loud 05:41:44 i'm easy to 11annoy 05:42:03 needs +c 05:42:19 i'm too stupid to live 05:43:36 so... 05:44:17 how to fix all this 10poop? 05:44:31 NoBrainHere: /kick NoBrainHere Driven from paradise. 05:44:40 -!- NoBrainHere was kicked from ##crawl-dev by dpeg [Driven from paradise.] 05:44:44 and here we go :) 05:47:16 nah, just drop Win32 support 05:48:45 windows ist just a fad, it won't stay around another 30 years 05:49:55 bhaak: wrapping all syscalls to use MicrosoftsAlternateAPIVersionW instead was not such a big task, and is already completed on the unicode branch 05:50:42 and so are all platform-dependant parts 05:51:23 so this will automatically resolve in $NEXT_RELEASE? 05:52:31 what needs to be done is converting the insides of files, properly calculating string width, recognizing non-ASCII keys and literal characters in the input file 05:52:39 yeah 05:53:06 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 05:54:29 the last part is a fun one: instead of having to write mon_glyph = pandemonium lord : x263f you can write ☿ directly 05:56:39 is that needed? people without proper input methods will hate you if it is :) 05:58:11 you can still go the old way 05:58:29 ok, cool 05:58:38 copy&paste is a lot easier than going through a character chart 05:59:56 it's 2010 but IME there are still a lot of encoding accidents happening even with c&p :/ 06:00:26 do you mean, on Windows? 06:00:47 the rest of the world uses UTF-8 consistently for almost a decade now 06:01:01 save for Apache's default config... 06:01:12 na, also on linux you get a lot of programs that screw up 06:01:41 I can't say how it is on OSX 06:06:13 there are often problems displaying fancier stuff like combining characters or RTL -- or sometimes even CJK in non-line-based text, but I can't think of any encoding issues anymore 06:09:25 lately, I've seen several BOMs pasted into IRC :) 06:09:49 that's Windows 06:10:46 yes, but BOMs at the beginning of utf-x is allowed 06:11:16 for certain encodings it's discouraged 06:11:24 only if the character set isn't already specified 06:11:52 and for about any use, including IRC, it's already known 06:14:05 it is a general problem of in-band signaling, but if you claim to be unicode-enabled, you should be able to handle a BOM even if it shouldn't/needed be there 06:15:11 as somebody will always get it wrong 06:16:08 I always thought, nethack would be rather utf-8 agnostic. Then somebody named his pet with utf-8 characters and the screen started to srew up :) 06:16:57 it breaks the assumption that strlen(s) is the same as the string's width, yeah 06:17:10 but so do ancient CJK charsets 06:17:46 yes, but I didn't think this would matter as nethack only prints the name 06:18:48 what library NetHack uses? I kind of recall it's something slang based, not curses. 06:18:52 but I may be wrong 06:19:44 for example, an item named with utf-8 characters shouldn't do anything bad when viewing the inventory, besides shifting the inventory windows a few cells to the left as strlen(name) > wcslen(name) 06:20:07 no library, it outputs termcap/terminfo derived escape sequences 06:20:35 it uses curses for initialization of some variables like screen width & height, but nothing else 06:21:18 you meant wcswidth() not wcslen(), right? 06:22:05 so nethack tries to minimizes screen output by hand and then ofc it fails when a previously printed line has utf-8 characters in it 06:22:07 the latter works only for pure Latin/Cyrillic/Greek/etc without combining or zero-width characters 06:22:29 hmm, no I meant wcslen, as I didn't know wcswidth 06:22:31 :) 06:22:31 forcing a cursor move could fix that 06:24:06 I think wcswidth didn't exist when I last had to concern myself with wide characters in C. 06:26:26 at least on linux. Wow, cygwin has locale support now? 07:12:22 I wonder how to name an iterator that produces all map squares in the order of their distance. It was "spiral_iterator" during coding, but then, it doesn't do an actual spiral as equidistant squares are given in either random or undefined order. 07:14:36 -!- upsy has joined ##crawl-dev 07:31:02 03kilobyte 07layout * r8f1e31e39424 10/ (coordit.cc coordit.h): A "spiral_iterator" that produces coords around a starting point. 08:12:57 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 08:45:00 -!- Twinge has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:45:26 -!- Twinge has joined ##crawl-dev 09:06:13 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 10:07:04 crash in dungeon (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2782) by Galefury 10:20:36 -!- Plasmaworm has joined ##crawl-dev 10:20:43 0o 10:21:05 has the appdata bug been resolved? 10:23:16 did you write a patch to fix it? 10:23:38 I don't know how to fix this poo myself 10:24:14 maybe, downgrade to 0.7 "zip"? (I have 0.71) 10:24:16 did you pay anybody to fix it? 10:24:40 I have no $ to pay for fixing this poo 10:25:12 but this poo annoys the eff out of me 10:25:13 then don't act like you're got rights to demand anything 10:27:11 I have only one idea, but it may be a total butt to implement 10:27:13 a handler 10:27:44 write all the "appdata\roaming" references into just !appdata!, parsed by a handler as %appdata% 10:28:29 -!- TGWi has joined ##crawl-dev 10:29:02 but again this may be too complex even for the best coders 10:30:41 appdata bug? why even use the installer 10:31:27 I got 071, unsure if this build has a flat variant 10:31:47 it should, the installer is an aftertought 10:31:49 thought 10:36:46 kay, re-dloaded 10:37:01 hope this helps to resolve the poo 10:45:04 this bug did fix the shix 10:46:45 what 10:48:00 who demanded anything 10:51:48 the dload got it fixed, installer is wrong 10:52:01 malicious and wrongated 10:57:56 ugh, what a weird thing 10:58:08 one of my crawls started on an island 10:58:11 :( 11:01:15 -!- Plasmaworm has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.12/20101026210630]] 11:09:38 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 12:08:02 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:10:26 -!- OG17 has quit [Quit: OG17] 12:13:02 -!- OG17 has joined ##crawl-dev 12:14:06 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 12:14:07 -!- Zaba has quit [Changing host] 12:14:08 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 12:36:52 03dolorous * rfef532bb1284 10/crawl-ref/source/spl-goditem.cc: Make sure Detect Curse works properly on staves. 12:39:52 -!- monky has joined ##crawl-dev 12:43:31 03dolorous * r99201e970bc5 10/crawl-ref/source/itemname.cc: Tweak item name display for staves, based on the same for weapons. 12:51:35 03dolorous * r90f7de2aa7b4 10/crawl-ref/source/itemname.cc: Add minor cosmetic fixes. 12:51:40 03dolorous * r6a88e5e5be65 10/crawl-ref/source/itemname.cc: Don't display "uncursed" for non-plain staff descriptions. 13:12:56 -!- stabwound has quit [Ping timeout: 241 seconds] 13:14:04 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 13:19:14 -!- stabwound has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:19:50 03dolorous * r4c5b86f7bde9 10/crawl-ref/source/itemprop.cc: Add more minor cosmetic fixes. 13:20:05 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 13:22:52 -!- TGWi1 has joined ##crawl-dev 13:23:22 -!- TGWi1 is now known as TGWiglaf 13:24:40 -!- TGWi has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:34:31 -!- TGWiglaf is now known as TGWi 13:39:09 03dolorous * r6ee502bc1e73 10/crawl-ref/source/item_use.cc: Refactor message display logic in enchant_weapon(). 14:20:44 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 15:00:30 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 15:00:49 galehar: Bon soir! 15:01:01 hi! 15:02:01 dpeg: do you have an opinion about the evoke interface? 15:02:52 galehar: I never use those items... 15:03:17 ... and I recall a time when it was concensus that "the one turn (needed to wield) is crucial for balance". 15:03:26 But I am not sure on this anymore. 15:04:00 but it was never enforced (the one turn) 15:04:08 before I changed this 15:04:15 even in DCSS 0.2 or so? 15:04:25 I don't know 15:04:54 I started playing when the first 0.6 RC went out :) 15:05:45 from the pov of smooth interface having to wield items is always bad 15:05:48 but I can try to dig git to find out if/when this has been changed 15:06:15 But there is a reason why I've been so silent about the whole matter: in my opinion, all the misc. items need overhaul anyway. 15:06:18 that's why my latest change is to allow auto-wield when evoking with V 15:07:10 and do you have a design in your head? Does it include having to wield the items? 15:07:21 the more radical solution would be to employ misc items like wands... 15:07:51 Well, that's how they behave before I changed it 15:08:03 my design would give (almost all) misc items two uses: one you can use all the time, and another one that uses up the item. The latter would require wielding, the former not. 15:08:06 and kilobyte suggested we go back to this behavior 15:08:40 I am sorry about this, galehar :( 15:08:49 I'm not 15:09:00 I don't mind changing back 15:09:04 I don't know what has been changed recently in trunk, but 0.7 and before only required wield for a couple of items 15:09:12 most items could be used in inventory with V 15:09:37 rods, decks and staves needed to be wielded 15:09:40 misc items not 15:09:45 I'm only remembering rods, decks and staff of channeling actually requiring wield 15:09:47 galehar: I tried to treat misc items lightly, hoping for a full-fledged overhaul later on 15:09:47 the change is about misc items 15:09:47 yeah 15:09:52 i always found it more convenient to wield them anyway 15:10:58 needing to wield is only rarely relevant anyway: distortion weapon, felid, some forms 15:11:42 but which ones are really used so often that having to wield them is a problem? I think only the crystall ball of energy, but maybe there are others. 15:11:49 elliptic: we'd have that in the future anyway... you'd only get stuff like "teleport anchor" with wielding the item. 15:12:07 galehar: misc items are useless or broken, roughly speaking. 15:12:10 elliptic: exactly. Wielding takes only half a turn anyway 15:12:28 I don't know what teleport anchor is, but there are certainly other things that are nice to wield but not evocable 15:13:02 galehar: currently having to wield crystal ball would be annoying and a slight nerf, no other misc items are used really 15:13:29 the elemental summoning items are used 15:13:39 by which I mean the air and earth elemental summoning items 15:13:39 not much since they can't be spammed now 15:14:02 they aren't really used in such a way that wielding would make much difference 15:14:15 just to kill mummies for convenience and to dig 15:14:26 elliptic: the thing producing elementals was used until recently 15:14:33 dpeg: like I said, it was nerfed 15:14:40 in 0.7 15:15:10 galehar: what changed with stealth? apparently it's training by 2 or 3 levels at once, seems kind of weird 15:15:51 I replaced the skill points bonus by a smaller base cost 15:16:21 it trained x2 faster than other skills, and it should still be the case 15:16:48 what you're talking about seems like a bug 15:16:55 can you be more specific? 15:17:14 galehar: my stealth skill went up from 5 to 8 in one turn while I was wandering around (with the skill turned off) 15:17:20 (2:45:32 PM) Cryp71c: lol? Your Stealth skill gained 2 levels and is now at level 5! 15:17:20 (2:45:45 PM) Cryp71c: I have stealth turned off, rested for 1 moment, and BAM, gained two levels? 15:17:30 and elliptic's was the other incident 15:17:34 ok 15:17:38 I'll have a look into it 15:18:21 -!- minced has joined ##crawl-dev 15:18:46 I believe this was quite soon after CDO was updated (and my game was transferred), so I suppose it could be an artifact of that? 15:18:51 -!- Wensley has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:18:51 galehar, our games were Transfers 15:19:01 -!- minced is now known as Wensley 15:19:09 so yeah, probably a result of that. 15:19:39 oh ok 15:19:55 yes, definitely because of the update 15:20:19 so shouldn't be a problem with new games 15:22:26 there's one change, but I think it's more of bug fix. skill point cost (how much XP for 1 skill point) depends on total skill points. And stealth gained skill points twice as fast. Meaning that stealthy characters had slower overall skill progression later on. 15:22:59 -!- minced has joined ##crawl-dev 15:23:01 heh 15:23:46 galehar, mmm, not quite sure its a big deal either way. Stealth requiring less xp to train isn't the end of the world, its too rarely leveled fairly high anyways since the benefits outweigh the risks. 15:23:56 But with lower base xp required, it might be more worthwihle. 15:23:58 galehar: if there wasn't a comment about this, I'd assume it was not intentional 15:24:23 -!- Wensley has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:24:34 -!- minced is now known as Wensley 15:24:48 well, the change to stealth was also to avoid reskilling abuse 15:25:15 yes 15:25:15 done anything to fix the cross-training abuse? 15:25:33 having a skill which gains twice as much skill points for the same amount of XP begs for reskilling abuse 15:25:36 Is there any real-game feedback for reskilling? 15:25:58 tgwi: I am coding it 15:26:03 In my games, I don't found much potential to abuse... in fact, it's not so easy to actually use the ability (which is okay). 15:26:30 The one Sif->Ash all runer was more about highlighting the broken aspects of the game: crystal ball, infinite areas... 15:27:32 kilobyte nerfed piety gained in the abyss after that feedback 15:27:43 yes, that was good 15:27:54 dpeg: I played a quick ash game but didn't use any reskilling until the very end, when I did this: 15:27:58 but saying the god is useful doesn't mean it's OP :) 15:28:00 65964 | D:1 | Reached skill 18 in Traps & Doors 15:28:00 65965 | D:1 | Reached skill 22 in Traps & Doors 15:28:00 65966 | D:1 | Reached skill 25 in Traps & Doors 15:28:00 65967 | D:1 | Reached skill 27 in Traps & Doors 15:28:00 65969 | D:$ | Escaped with the Orb! 15:28:21 !apt ha sbl 15:28:21 Could not understand "sbl" 15:28:22 !apt ha lbl 15:28:23 Could not understand "lbl" 15:28:26 !apt ha 15:28:26 Ha: Air: 1, Armour: -2, Axes: -1, Bows: 2, Conj: -2, Xbows: 1!, Dodge: 2, Earth: 0, Ench: 0, Evo: 1, Exp: 100!, Fighting: -1, Fire: 0, Ice: 0, Inv: 0, Long: 0, Maces: -2, Nec: -2, Poison: -1, Polearms: -3*, Shields: 1, Short: 3!, Slings: 4!, Splcast: -1, Stab: 2, Staves: -2, Stealth: 3, Summ: -1, Throw: 3!, Tloc: 0, Tmut: -2, Traps: 0, Unarmed: -2* 15:28:45 might do an ash game next 15:28:54 elliptic: what skill did you swap into T&D? 15:29:12 dpeg: in general I agree with you that reskilling isn't particularly abusable, though 15:29:33 dpeg: a few different skills I think... whatever was highest at each point 15:30:16 what is it usable for? 15:30:19 -!- Wensley has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:30:27 I'll probably try a less short ash game next and see how I like reskilling then 15:30:37 but it is sort of silly that you can get whatever title you want with it 15:31:00 elliptic's log give's me an idea. Should we note skill levels lost? 15:31:46 galehar: yeah, that would be nice... currently you have to write them down beforehand if you want to know how much you lost 15:32:12 galehar: yes, good idea 15:32:13 should be trivial to do, I'll look 15:33:44 galehar: at least in wizmode, I get messages about reskilling out of the blue, without using the ability 15:34:16 what? 15:34:20 what messages? 15:34:35 like, a new char with &A 27 suddenly got a skill to 43 15:35:02 which skill? 15:35:06 stealth? 15:35:14 TGWi: is your question serious? (If so, I'll reply.9 15:35:22 like, when moving: 15:35:23 An uncursed glowing swamp dragon hide. 15:35:23 (54,17): [ - Floor. (67/floor) map: 42 15:35:24 _Your Stealth skill gained 16 levels and is now at level 43! 15:35:33 on CDO? 15:35:50 kilobyte: I think that is just stealth bugged at the moment 15:35:55 well, it's normal, don't worry :) 15:36:02 elliptic: about the titles... do we use them anywhere? 15:36:12 dpeg: well, player prestige 15:36:28 People would know that Ash games may skew titles, so if titles come up for reals somewhere (like challenges or a tournament prize, we can simply rule out reskilling). 15:36:45 kilobyte: I lowered the base cost of stealth, so when the change happened, everybody gained a few levels. No issue with new games. 15:36:58 galehar: ah, cool then. Thanks! 15:37:15 kilobyte: you have level 43 stealth!? you have to win 15:37:36 he said wizmode 15:37:57 dpeg: yeah, titles aren't used anywhere currently in game, so not a big deal 15:38:06 they have been used in tourney though 15:38:55 and detecting reskilling isn't really that simple at the moment... you can detect whether someone has ever worshipped ash, but that's all 15:39:11 elliptic: yes, I know. Could simply ask for non-tampered with titles. (You could even use Ash + reskilling, just not on the relevant skill.) <-- this demands a log note for reskilling, is all. 15:40:00 shouldn't be too hard to prevent title abuse. I'll think about it 15:40:05 yeah, not a big deal... just something silly that you can do with ash :) 15:40:13 or a more radical way: if your highest skill was ever reskilled to, you get one of a new pool instead 15:40:36 it did seem rather easy to get traps 27... that character was only L20, even 15:40:41 I think we have some similar clauses in some place already. 15:40:48 so there would be 6 skills you can ever get only with Ashenzari, like "Skill-master" or such 15:41:33 kilobyte: that would also be possible, yes. I'd wait with a decision until later :) 15:42:17 I think in my next ash game I'll try something a bit stranger, like switching from melee to firestorm or something like that 15:42:34 elliptic: do a shuffle troll 15:42:35 with reskilling 15:42:47 But I wanted to discuss continuous xp transfer (this was galehar's idea): if we think that reskilling is okay in principle, then it will be better to have the two affected skills change slowly, rather than suddenly. Using turncount is out of the question; we could use either piety gain or xp gain. 15:42:51 eh, I already did a shuffle troll with shatter once 15:45:33 dpeg: could be nice 15:45:48 dpeg: the only issue with the slow transfer is that it becomes much harder to know how much you lose/gain. While we're balancing it, the immediate system have the advantage of being more transparent. Can we say we've balanced it and we can move on to this feature? It will take a few days anyway before I find the time to code it. 15:45:49 dpeg: for one, it would prevent reskilling just as you dump Ashenzari 15:46:37 dpeg: but on the other hand, people will just go explore a level or kill a few giants 15:47:28 galehar: yes, absolutely 15:48:03 kilobyte: well, reskilling is like a gift... gods should be able to remember their gifts. 15:50:25 I'm thinking it should be tied to the exploring timer rather than XP 15:50:37 should we talk numbers? 15:51:20 I was thinking xp :) 15:51:29 But either way will work. And yes, numbers! 15:53:01 starting at L14, one skill level is 1800 skill points (with apt 0) 15:53:49 L27 is about 30000 15:53:59 reskill transfer half you skill points 15:55:01 L is XL or skill level? 15:55:11 skill level 15:56:04 so the maximum number of skill points transferred with one use is about 15000 15:56:04 galehar: I always expected it to grow exponentially... 15:56:29 what? 15:56:39 skill levels 15:56:47 well, it kinda does 15:56:51 that is, their xp cost 15:56:56 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 15:57:12 Wensley: Hi! 15:57:16 hello! 15:57:31 up to L13, to cost (in skill points) rise gradually 15:57:42 hey 15:58:06 but there is also the XP cost of a skill point which grows... 15:58:13 Wensley: where's the comment on my comment? :) [In case it wasn't clear: what I say are just ideas and suggestions. Feel free to ignore. But I'm happy about comments.] 15:58:32 galehar: ah, I see. 15:58:50 regarding gnomes? :) I've been trying to sync with minced to get his opinion as well, if it seems that I've been slower at commenting than usual 15:58:55 Wensley: yes 15:59:30 my idea right now is to talk to him regarding what he wants to code (it is his creation, after all) and then I was going to overhaul the page to remove the clutter 15:59:32 galehar: the advantage of using xp gain for skill transfer is that we're comparing two things of the same type. In other words, we could say that skill transfer happens at N times the speed of ordinary xp accumulation (from killing). 15:59:42 Wensley: sounds good 15:59:51 Wensley: there is absolutely no need to hurry. It's better to take your time now and come with a good proposal rather than to amend it later. 15:59:59 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:00:56 right, I'm taking my time with this :) but I am eager to continue 16:01:08 kilobyte: I was only interested in his comments to my one... after all, I got pushed as well =) 16:01:14 dpeg: good point. We can also factor in the current skill_cost, which means skill transfer gets slower later on (just like skill training) 16:01:15 There's no hurry with the species. 16:01:22 galehar: yes 16:03:23 -!- minced has joined ##crawl-dev 16:03:37 whoa what 16:03:52 why the hell did my client just name me minced 16:04:01 -!- minced is now known as Wensley_ 16:04:07 -!- Wensley has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:04:15 minced: are you the real minced_ ? 16:04:23 no, I think I have my settings weird 16:04:32 I told chatzilla to alert me when minced was on 16:04:46 I clearly did something wrong 16:05:34 so for future reference, nickname list != notify list 16:06:00 also, curse my shoddy internet 16:07:14 this also must be why it didn't alert me that he was on last night, even though his name was listed. anyway... 16:09:46 minced switched his name to wensley earlier 16:10:11 [21:24] <-- Wensley has left this server (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 16:10:12 [21:24] *** minced is now known as Wensley. 16:10:24 yeah, my settings were borked 16:10:32 ah 16:11:05 I thought I had it configured to notify me when he signed on, but instead I had it configured to autoname-me minced if wensley was unavailable... which it often is, given my spotty internet 16:16:34 but well, now the sockpuppet is revealed :) 16:17:22 you've caught me! I am a fraud 16:22:28 autoexplore should be disabled while berserk 16:22:44 03dolorous * r062615e5cb11 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-stuff.cc: Disallow armour mimics from taking the forms of hides. 16:24:19 TGWi: good point 16:24:24 does anyone disagree? 16:25:00 it makes sense, don't want people getting slowed in unexpected places 16:25:38 berserk expiring will abort autoexplore in 2-3 turns anyway 16:26:22 nobody sane would do that anyway. So it just helps to prevent mistakes 16:26:33 ^ both the points I was going to make 16:27:01 can someone do anything about sinsi putting random FRs on the balance page? 16:28:20 well, do you have his address? 16:28:23 ;) 16:28:47 [22:26] nobody sane would do that anyway. So it just helps to prevent mistakes <-- guess you don't know about the autoexplore bug 16:29:01 an odd reversal, the developers sending a lynch mob for the players 16:29:18 you can extend berserk for ridiculous lengths of time by autoexploring, or at least used to be able to in 0.7 16:31:29 03kilobyte * r01cc9c84d54e 10/crawl-ref/source/travel.cc: Disallow autoexploring while berserking. 16:31:38 well, I just did some quick test, seems what you're talking has been fixed already 16:32:40 good 16:32:42 TGWi: yes, Sinsi has been hijacking the "balance" page. 16:34:50 I just replied to sinsi on AC/EVP 16:34:53 sinsi is insane 16:36:54 it would be nice if it were more clear how much of the balance page was still relevant 16:37:07 there's nothing we can do appart from trying to explain him why his ideas are bad 16:37:28 at the least you could direct him to appropriate pages 16:37:45 the Sinsi's idea page 16:37:49 :) 16:38:20 perhaps we should enforce the idea that the balance page is only to collect problems with balance, rather than discuss solutions to those problems (which should happen in the appropriate pages) 16:38:48 Wensley_: yes, that's probably okay. 16:39:11 monky: FR: blanket armour 16:39:25 EVP 5, AC+2 16:40:16 and replace robes with snuggies 16:42:09 03galehar * r3a103b703796 10/crawl-ref/source/ (notes.cc notes.h skills.cc): Note when skills are reduced 16:42:09 03galehar * rb5a5e4df819f 10/crawl-ref/source/skills.cc: fix a comment 16:44:49 also if you crunch any numbers at all you'll realize he's suggesting that AC chars should take 40 less damage from everything 16:44:52 which is hilarious 16:53:23 -!- TGWi has left ##crawl-dev 17:10:36 Wensley_: on the thing for misc items you just replied to... The idea was that there are two uses of an item. I don't think it'll work out if the permanent use can also lose the item. 17:27:57 speaking of the autoexplore bug did anyone fix being able to berserk while autoexploring because of toadstools/mimics/etc. with berserkitis 17:28:02 because seriously, what the hell 17:29:20 yeah, that's indeed an issue 17:29:27 especially when you're low on food 17:29:58 mimics should stop autoexplore though. Don't they? 17:30:12 kilobyte: if you're attacked? Sure. 17:30:23 We once had attacks not stopping explore, but that's past. 17:30:40 kilobyte: it is possible to explore into them and stab them trying to pick them up 17:30:44 which is dumb for its own set of reasons 17:31:05 unnoticed mimics are no longer stabbable 17:31:28 do you still try to attack them, though? 17:32:13 does autoexplore still stop around known mimics when it should path around them or something 17:32:27 same with strange disturbances 17:33:40 -!- galehar has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.12/20101026210630]] 17:34:28 I checked, if the mimic won't notice you first you do attack it, and if you have berserkitis (I checked with the Wrath of Trog), you can go berserk. 17:34:37 felid evoking a rod causes hang/crash (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2783) by xyblor 17:35:27 i seem to recall being able to explore into butterflies the same way 17:35:30 unlike toadstools, this does make sense -- it's like tripping over something, which can infuriate people in RL as well 17:35:40 that too 17:36:07 kilobyte: i don't really think it makes sense - you aren't tripping over an item, you go to pick an item up and it attacks you 17:36:28 should just make trying to walk into a mimic be the action that makes it go hostile, rather than standing next to it 17:38:40 kilobyte: WoT does not grant berserkitis, it's different for hysterical raisins 17:40:18 imagine walking in a park, noticing an interesting flower in a bush, bending over and having some bastard jump at you. This can make people aggressive. 17:40:26 dpeg: I didn't mean that the permanent use would destroy the item, I meant that the one-time use would possibly not destroy the item with a high evocations skill (which is why I didn't use the phrase "one-time use"). sorry if that wasn't clear 17:41:04 ... is it intentional that enchant weapon uncurses a weapon even if you are an ash worshipper? 17:41:12 sorear: that's why I noted I used WoT rather than real berserkitis which would require a number of tries -- I think both would behave the same 17:41:14 since that's really annoying 17:41:14 elliptic: no, a bug rather 17:41:15 I think that's on the wiki 17:41:22 while we're on the topic of autoexplore, has autoexploring into silence been addressed? 17:41:23 dpeg: well, why? 17:41:37 dpeg: it would be really strange if the scroll worked some other way 17:42:18 kilobyte: enchanting stuff should not change cursedness for Ashies. Curses are rare, and Ash followers will generally want to preserve them. The first proposal already had this! :) 17:42:30 Wensley_: no, but it's somewhat non-trivial 17:43:19 dpeg: yet you can't decide to berserk for only speed and not might, for example 17:43:33 Wensley_: ah, I see. But Evo already does good things to misc item users. Not sure if we want to have them gamble like this... 17:44:01 kilobyte: I think the change is good for both flavour and gameplay. It is similar to how ?RC is different for Ash followers. 17:44:10 dpeg: I think it could create interesting decisions, but obviously it will need to wait until misc items are reevaluated (which I have actually been wanting for a long time) 17:44:30 Wensley_: the point is that the permanent use vs one off use already creates those decisions! 17:44:47 this creates another decision :P 17:44:47 ?RC does not work differently, it just takes the obvious decision for non-Asherites 17:45:06 namely, whether to put more points in evo to get more uses out of your items 17:45:32 anyway, I've been player DSFi^A and I also think that ?EA and ?EW should keep cursedness 17:45:51 Wensley_: misc users already want more Evo 17:46:32 this could make misc items more attractive to everyone else, while also retaining a bonus for people who focus on them. although it's still fine for people to entirely ignore misc items, I suppose 17:47:04 Wensley_: I think your idea is the second step before the first step 17:47:12 that happens a lot with me :P 17:47:22 anyway, my point is that I very much like your idea 17:47:38 writing up even more ideas for potential new misc items now 17:47:44 Wensley_: I. New misc items effects. II. One off vs permanent to create this choice. III. If we find that permanent uses are not used often enough, your idea :) 17:47:45 i think the trove requests for potions may be a hair too high 17:47:56 i got one for 9 !agility, earlier got one for 12 !hw 17:48:09 er, i'm sorry, *11* !agility, of which i have 2 17:49:28 there are worse ones 17:49:33 9 !magic, say 17:50:04