00:04:44 -!- blackflare has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:09:06 -!- blackflare has joined ##crawl-dev 00:11:00 -!- meownced has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:38:37 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:42:53 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 02:01:51 -!- CIA-46 has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:11:00 -!- stabwound has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 02:11:30 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 02:19:21 -!- stabwound has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 02:20:10 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 02:20:54 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 02:32:57 -!- stabwound has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 02:33:56 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 02:50:39 -!- CIA-39 has joined ##crawl-dev 02:58:46 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 03:01:33 !seen anyone 03:01:33 Sorry dpeg, I haven't seen anyone. 03:03:27 dpeg: the scrollback between 3:30 and 3:40 is beyond words 03:05:39 hi dpeg 03:08:26 hiii 03:12:23 back 03:13:47 kilobyte: trying to find it 03:13:55 which time zone does http://tozt.net/crawl use? 03:14:31 /ctcp Ashenzari time 03:14:37 Or it might not respond. 03:14:58 kilobyte: the bit about nome sex? 03:15:08 it uses the same timezone as my shell 03:15:29 in my defense, I wasn't intending for that first comment to be so easily misconstrued :P 03:15:31 which is CDT, I believe 03:17:38 galehar: I thought about cross training and reskilling. Two approaches: (1) replace crosstraining by improved aptitudes. Advantage: we can now explain crosstraining (and also Ice/Fire etc. anti-training without words). Drawback: we have just reduced aptitude granularity and the reskilling issue needs some thought. (2) We track how much actual xp went into skills and only use that for reskilling. Drawback: a high skill (in LBl, say) may be misleading, as it s 03:19:05 cuts off after "a high skill (in LBl, say) may be misleading, as it s" 03:21:07 (2) We track how much actual xp went into skills and only use that for reskilling. Drawback: a high skill (in LBl, say) may be misleading, as it stands for a lot less xp. Advantage: this should be fair and fairly simple. 03:22:38 -!- monky has quit [Quit: hello] 03:22:58 due: doy 03:23:19 dpeg: I don't think we want to change anti-training. It would mean it cost more xp to train anti-school. Right now it is just slower. 03:23:32 yes, agreed 03:23:34 also, what do you mean by "reduced granularity? 03:23:58 galehar: we used to have aptitudes as percentages, but now it is on a -5 ... +5 scale 03:24:28 We can keep the current scale 03:24:41 and apply the bonus separately 03:25:20 sure 03:25:36 but I liked showing the aptitude gain right in the m screen :) 03:26:07 oh, you mean make the aptitude bonus visible 03:27:24 -!- casmith789 has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:28:46 yes 03:38:58 what's the specific concern with reskilling that needs adressed? 03:40:20 Wensley: crosstraining allows to get more skill for less xp; reskilling allows to turn that into other skills; crosstrain some more etc. 03:41:34 the cross-training bonus is x3 faster training. That roughly translate into a +6.5 aptitude bonus. 03:42:32 ah, I see 03:42:41 mere training speed means nothing 03:43:27 ah, the docs are wrong 03:43:28 ok, I mean it's x3 faster skill leveling 03:44:04 it indeed affects the xp:skill ratio rather than merely the number of exercises 03:44:38 exaclty 03:45:14 no, it's only x2 03:45:15 which also have the side effect that you get more skill points, and thus global slower training (because skill_cost raise faster) 03:45:32 random2(3) is 1 on the average 03:46:00 I thought random2(3) meant d3 03:46:14 galehar: no no 03:46:23 random2(n) is between 0 and n-1 03:46:46 we do have functions that return 1..n, to make it more confusing 03:47:00 ok, thanks for the clarification 03:47:01 -!- Pseudonut has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:47:21 which means cross-training translate into a +4 apt bonus, easy to make visible 03:49:31 always +4? That's good, yes. 03:52:58 if it's a big issue, the nature of crosstraining could be changed to not train skills faster, but only increase the effective level of the skill when it is used 03:53:51 I don't think it's a really big issue, just needs some thought in advance. 03:54:03 Wensley: yours would also work 03:55:44 but would be more complicated. 03:56:04 because you can game some level with cross-training and some not 03:56:27 yes 03:56:43 we'd need to average out the gain 03:56:52 But that could be the solution for stealth 03:57:06 this one has a strange bonus too, just like crosstraining 03:57:29 I wasn't aware that stealth crosstrained with anything 03:57:34 from the source comment: Quick fix for the fact that stealth can't be gained fast enough 03:57:43 to keep up with the monster levels. This should speed its advancement 03:58:10 galehar: do you know from when that bit is? 03:58:17 it doesn't crosstrain with anything, it just gain skill points at the same rate as a crosstrained skill (x2) 03:58:25 dpeg: no 04:02:07 that sounds like its own issue. perhaps that could be removed, but then stealth could be buffed by making it easier to sneak around things based on their proximity 04:02:41 We can make skills train faster without any additional change. 04:02:47 For example, Armour trains quite slowly. 04:03:11 I thought so 04:03:51 that hidden apt for Stealth can be done the same way Spellcasting/Evo/Invo is 04:04:08 ie, by changing the base 04:04:17 no special casing would be required anymore 04:06:20 kilobyte: I agree, this is the most simple fix 04:07:46 but it will have the effect on reskilling that if you reskill from stealth, you will lose a lot of skill levels and gain little in other skills 04:08:10 same for evo/invo which have a base cost of 80 04:08:12 about real cross-training: sadly, it appears storing the actual xp used is not a solution, as training costs rapidly rise with your character level 04:08:23 opposite can be said of spellcasting (cost 130) 04:08:43 kilobyte: what would you do? 04:09:00 ie, if you train 5 Air at xl 5 and 5 Fire at xl 10, you used like >10 times as much xp for Fire 04:09:07 oh, actual XL is also involved? 04:09:30 I think I remember someone trying to scum that once by draining themselves constantly 04:09:55 Wensley: players :) 04:10:10 Wensley: oh, you're right. This is a valid concern, as skills are more useful than the character level. 04:10:18 Hm, this does not mean that reskilling itself is automatically broken... the xp was spent, and you're only once below XL<10, after all. 04:11:32 another issue: if the cost was shared between Sbl and Lbl, does it mean you got Lbl cheaper -- or that Sbl should be worth less 04:11:49 kilobyte: depends on what you got up first 04:12:09 The first skill was trained honestly, and should be used as-is for reskilling. 04:13:07 if it's intractably hard to make it fair, reskilling could be one of those once-per-character-at-max-piety things 04:14:20 Wensley: true, but apart from crosstraining, reskilling seems completely fair (unlike those one off gifts): you transport N of a skill to some other skill, modified by aptitudes and with a 10% loss. 04:15:13 If we cannot come up with a decent solution (which I find improbably), then I'd rather make crosstrained skills ineligible for reskilling. 04:15:14 kilobyte: the raising cost isn't based on XL anymore. It uses total skill points 04:15:51 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 04:16:05 galehar: does that mean that we could use the actual xp invested in the cross-trained skill, after allß 04:16:27 no 04:16:47 you still gained twice as many skill points for the same amount of XP 04:17:11 depending on implementation, it seems as though it might make sense for a player to hold off on reskilling so that they get maximum effect from it later. say they have pool xp to point in fighting, or they can use reskilling to put points in fighting, they get more of a benefit by spending pool xp now while each level of the skill costs less 04:17:18 it's just that draining yourself to train skill cheaper doesn't work anymore 04:17:26 galehar: yes, the point would be that we keep track of the "honest xp spent in the skill" and for reskilling purposes, only take that 04:18:08 Wensley: one reason why crosstraining shouldn't affect reskilling is that they don't have much to do with each other 04:18:22 crosstraining is among melee weapon and some throwing skills 04:18:29 so the skill you trained earlier should counts 10 times less? 04:18:32 This is not what you want to skill up via reskilling. 04:18:44 dpeg: my last comment wasn't even considering crosstraining 04:19:18 Wensley: that's like acquirement. It is best to wait as long as possible... otoh, you may want to use those new skill _right now_ :) Choices! 04:19:23 kilobyte: no. You gained the skill points more easily but they have the same value now 04:20:13 dpeg: that's true, it might not be an issue 04:21:03 Wensley: this is diminishing returns: you could grind up the donating skill some more, but you'd get only a little more for the receiving skill. Don't think that will be best play, at least not in general. 04:21:05 Actually, my first implementation was to convert skill points back to XP by reversing the _exercise2 function, and then transfer the XP into the new skill still using _exercise2. It was insanely overpowered, you gained much more than you lost. 04:21:29 galehar: do you know why? 04:21:37 that sounds like a sensible approach 04:22:09 I'm not sure 04:22:53 it seems a sensible approach, that's why I tried it, but it wasn't working and was much more complicated than what I've finally come up with 04:23:05 zergloli (L13 FeTm) ASSERT(mimic != NULL && mons_is_item_mimic(mimic->type)) in 'mon-stuff.cc' at line 174 failed. (D:15) 04:26:25 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 04:28:06 dpeg: the stealth 'quick fix' was already there in crawl 0.1.1! 04:28:13 dpeg: playing Ash, there is one thing I really miss... long-range creature detection. Like, "aieee, 7 hp and there's Ilsuiw/pan lord around! She may be here or there." -- and later on, "where's the bitch? I searched the whole map several times over and over, where is she hiding?". 04:28:48 galehar: perhaps we should have pre-DCSS versions in git so we can run such searches? 04:29:07 kilobyte: we can add whole-level effects, as long they're rare (i.e. not permanent and/or passive). 04:29:20 galehar: that's centuries ago!!1! 04:29:44 how about this: when you enter a level, you are alerted of any uniques on that level 04:29:49 currently Ash's creature detection is only in LOS range -- so it helps only against walls 04:30:02 kilobyte: I'm not sure what we would learn from it. If it's that old, the devs are no longer active anyway 04:30:15 galehar: good point 04:30:34 Wensley: it's also about pan lords, fiends, etc... 04:30:53 I was including pan lords 04:31:06 they're more unique than uniques, after all 04:31:14 kilobyte: yes, I absolutely understand what you mean. I am not against it... my point was that detection should be permanent and passive, which is always good and better than spamming abilities. Adding another active ability with a noticeable piety would allow a beyond-LOS detection, of course. 04:31:45 usually it's about looking for a certain monster you have fought before 04:31:47 dpeg: then you're back to the detect monsters spell, which was the worst offender of divinations 04:32:01 scrying could also extend the range of your passive detections, to an extent depending on your piety or something? 04:32:07 kilobyte: there could be an astral vision-like "search nemesis" ability 04:32:26 Wensley: no, because spells are spammed, but god powers can be balanced in other ways. 04:32:48 dpeg: I wonder what kind of user interface for selecting the monster to find would be best 04:32:51 I like the idea of an ability that only finds powerful enemies 04:32:53 MarvinPA: if passive detection goes beyond LOS (or LOS+1), we force players to check the X map all the time. 04:33:28 mm true, even if it's only while scrying's active that would be annoying 04:33:33 dpeg: or perhaps it could be done by xp value, decaying with time 04:34:13 what's the smallest margin we allow? 04:34:38 Active power: "mind of the nemesis". You can see what the nemesis sees (like astral vision), for some time. 04:35:07 dpeg: seeing for only a single turn might be more useful 04:35:11 kilobyte: I am afraid it's LOS, but LOS+1 is still possible on 24 line console. Perhaps even +2? 04:35:16 Wensley: ok 04:35:27 oh crap, just checked: on 80x24, it's LOS 04:35:33 really? 04:35:35 if the idea is simply to convey the members of their band and apporaches 04:35:37 * dpeg is sad 04:35:44 Anyway, rationale would be that you can put yourself in somebody's mind. 04:35:44 so current Ash portal detection in the Abyss rewards checking the map 04:35:45 oh, speaking of that problem 04:35:51 except you can't actually check it 04:35:57 someone pointed out that having a bigger termsize with ash is beneficial in abyss 04:35:57 kilobyte: :) 04:36:00 so having a sane window size is good for you 04:36:35 kilobyte: solution would be to display "portal near" once detected 04:36:46 I've long been a proponent of increasing the default window size to 80x40 :P 04:36:50 oh, we already do :) 04:37:08 * dpeg slaps Wensley with a brainbow trout. 04:37:12 Wensley: also unicode, and 256 colors 04:37:32 Eronarn: +1, -1 (due to technical issues) 04:38:13 kilobyte: sounds like you just hate freedom >:( 04:38:15 no Windows, no termcast, no support on many terminals with no graceful fallback 04:38:42 we should just allow X in the abyss 04:38:59 with a status light for "something outside view is known!" 04:38:59 for Unicode, I should probably post a writeup about benefits/issues on the wiki 04:39:33 galehar: regarding crosstraining and reskilling: would it be an option to make training from a x-trained skill (say LBl) deduct the x-trained xp from the used skill (say SBl) ? 04:39:40 reducing Ash's portal detection to LOS range would be a lame but safe solution 04:40:14 kilobyte: yes 04:40:21 Some day, I ought to hack up the missing glyphs for the fonts I use for Crawl. 04:40:23 just doing that for the abyss would seem reasonable, ash is already pretty powerful anyway 04:40:32 Most fonts lack one or more important glyph, like doors and walls :( 04:40:40 zergloli (L13 FeTm) ASSERT(mimic != NULL && mons_is_item_mimic(mimic->type)) in 'mon-stuff.cc' at line 174 failed. (D:16) 04:40:50 Zao: what terminal do you use? 04:41:18 dpeg: what? It means you would lose skill points from the higher level skill, right? 04:41:31 due: this crash is yours. Should we debug it or will you handle it? 04:41:54 Zao: take a look at Unicode 6.0 04:41:56 ??unicode6 04:41:57 unicode6 0[1/1]: A boatload of glyphs for you to abuse. A font with all symbol blocks: http://users.teilar.gr/~g1951d/Symbola600.zip Test: 💩 04:42:20 too bad that font doesn't fit nicely within the character grid, causing overflows 04:42:29 -!- upsy has joined ##crawl-dev 04:42:46 kilobyte: putty with Droid Sans Mono. 04:42:57 I'd need to either find a better one or copy+paste+squash the characters in fontforge 04:43:00 I also tried using DejaVu Sans Mono, Liberation Mono, heck, even Consolas. 04:43:09 try comic sans 04:43:20 I'm a big fan of the letters in Droid, but it lacks walls. 04:43:31 Consolas is the über font -- but ironically, not on Windows 04:43:46 I've also found that cleartype tends to ruin most wall glyphs. 04:43:51 galehar: yes, it sounds weird, but is actually reasonable: your high skill in Lbl (say) is obtained by leeching from SBl. 04:43:58 Switching to regular proper grayscale AA improves those a lot. 04:44:01 Surr (L15 DrFE) ASSERT(mimic != NULL && mons_is_item_mimic(mimic->type)) in 'mon-stuff.cc' at line 174 failed. (D:16) 04:44:03 Zao: same in freetype 04:44:28 kilobyte: Heck, I use putty on Linux too, as none of the terminals I use handle numpad properly. 04:44:29 really, the glyphs we have for walls by default are awful in non-bitmap fonts 04:45:03 when you folks talk about cool fonts and anti-aliasing and whatnot, I wonder how dated my games must look to you 04:45:10 shift+numpad does everything from pulling up assorted inventory/cast/whatever screens to nothing at all. 04:45:12 * dpeg plays in a standard linux console 04:45:35 Zao: where do you have issues? The last one wrong I've seen is rxvt/wterm, for which I submitted patches in 2003 which have been applied in 2005/2007, respectively. 04:45:38 dpeg: well, technically, it's possible, sure. But I find the idea strange. This would turn cross-training into skill transfer, and your skills would even out. 04:45:46 "standard linux console" as in without X? 04:46:09 kilobyte: gnome-terminal, urxvt, xterm. 04:46:23 kilobyte: Different fun bugs on each, so I ended up with native putty in the end. 04:46:34 http://www.acc.umu.se/~zao/dcss-putty.png <- I have awesome door glyphs 04:47:00 galehar: ok, I think about it more 04:48:46 dpeg: I think the aptitude bonus is the better solution (well, it's my idea!). I'll code it when I have the time 04:48:58 galehar: I told why I really like it :) 04:49:19 galehar: would it be possible to list the anti-training (Fire/Ice etc.) as lower aptitude as well? 04:49:19 dpeg: but you're free to come up with something better in the meantime :) 04:49:36 but that would be wrong 04:49:44 ah :( 04:50:04 having fire/ice and air/earth work as a lower aptitude would make much more sense 04:50:07 lower aptitude means you need to spend more XP for the same skill level 04:50:21 anti-training just slows down the training 04:50:31 right now it's just less likely the opposing skill will train which means you can victory dance them just fine 04:50:32 galehar: I believe that reskilling will be useful (but not as much as people seemed to think) and melee skills will only play a small role, unless people try to abuse crosstraining so as to manufacture xp. So we only have to close that hole, and then we're fine. 04:50:47 MarvinPA: ah, ok 04:50:54 Well, not sure if okay :) 04:51:07 MarvinPA: well, that is certainly something which can be discussed 04:51:18 We're effectively forcing players to crosstrain there... 04:51:22 i think making it more like anti-crosstraining would be an improvement, anyway 04:51:32 MarvinPA: yes, same here, now that I am aware of it. 04:52:57 for now, anti-training just force you to victory dance more. If you know it will cost you more xp, you will think twice about anti-training opposite schools 04:53:09 so, yes I guess it's a good idea 04:53:58 conversely, having a higher skill in fire than in ice could give you a malus to the power of your ice spells proportional to the disparity between the two skills 04:54:03 I believe the idea of cross-training is to make switching weapons more attractive. And that anti-training was about magic diversity, so we don't have casters will all schools trained up. 04:54:24 Wensley: I think it's better to stick with the training. 04:54:38 "Ice 14" should mean the same to everyone, regardless of Fire. 04:54:58 that's not what fire thinks! fire *hates* ice 04:55:23 Wensley: okay, so we make it genuinely harder to train Ice when Fire is higher. Fair enough! 04:56:15 with what I just proposed, it would be *easier* to train ice when fire is higher, it just makes you less effective at casting ice 04:56:45 hunting fleeing krakens with Ashenzari + flight + swiftness is deliciously cruel :) 04:56:49 Wensley: yes, I understand, but I think the other approach is better. 04:57:03 (and an awful thing to do with any other setup) 04:57:05 that's fine, I just get wary with so much xp nonsense going on 04:57:08 dpeg: me too 04:57:12 kilobyte: you sadist! 04:57:25 Wensley: it's not nonsense. Xp is our bread and butter. 04:57:36 wensley: what do you mean nonsense? 04:59:23 just from all the interactions between aptitudes, skill levels, experience levels, crosstraining, anticrosstraining, base values, and now reskilling, I feel like keeping track of xp is too much of a hassle 04:59:43 skill levels should be more important than xp 04:59:56 skill levels _are_ spent xp 05:00:16 I don't like thinking of them like that, because so much of that statement is dependent on so much else 05:01:24 skill levels are simple to understand, I'm suggesting ideas that would reduce reliance on xp and put more focus on skill level itself 05:02:10 Wensley: you're not suggesting those ideas, though :) You're suggesting that people come up with such ideas... which is hard. I don't see a way to do it, at least. 05:02:22 dpeg: see my crosstraining idea from earlier tonight 05:02:34 and my elemental school idea from just now 05:02:38 have to tell me 05:02:55 back later 05:04:07 zergloli (L14 FeTm) ASSERT(mimic != NULL && mons_is_item_mimic(mimic->type)) in 'mon-stuff.cc' at line 174 failed. (D:17) 05:04:10 crosstraining idea example: say your short blades is less than your long blades, and you want to train short blades. instead of training short blades faster, any time you make an action that requires your short blades skill, it takes the average of your sbl and lbl and uses that instead. 05:04:15 wensley, we're actually trying to make the system simpler and more transparent 05:04:54 if cross/anti training are translated into aptitude bonus/malus, it's much simpler to understand than the current hidden bonus and slower/faster training 05:05:09 and I respect that, but currently there's so much hidden interaction behind xp determining skill levels that transparency is impossible 05:06:04 players don't want to think about how much xp they've put in a skill at every point in the lifetime of their character, they just care what the skill is 05:07:19 which is why using a different value than the current skill level like your suggesting might not be such a good idea 05:07:46 also, players do think about where their xp is going to. That's why they disable skill and victory dance 05:07:56 and consider aptitudes 05:09:30 only if we don't clearly convey that there is a bonus for using related skills. for example, I guarantee that most new players don't know about crosstraining in the first place, this needs to be more visible. when they victory dance they don't care about xp, just emptying the pool itself. when they turn off skills they don't care about xp, just training the skill itself. they don't care that... 05:09:32 ...aptitudes reduce xp to train, they just care that the skills level faster. 05:10:47 in the end, skills are what are important and what define a character, xp is just the currency used to achieve them. if players currently do care about xp more than about skill levels, I think that's a flaw that can be corrected 05:11:39 sorry, but I don't get your point 05:15:36 all I'm suggesting is that we take this opportunity to excise some of the shenanigans behind the interaction between xp and skill levels 05:16:09 that is exactly what we're doing 05:16:44 changing obscur bonuses to aptitudes 05:17:10 or are you suggesting aptitudes should be removed too and races get bonus when using the skill? 05:17:15 no 05:17:55 I've only suggested that we redo the rules that govern crosstraining and the fire v ice/air v earth interaction 05:18:52 well, you suggested those skills train normally and you gain bonus/malus upon using them 05:19:09 I suggested anti/cross training are change to aptitude bonus/malus 05:19:39 an aptitude malus would be a severe nerf to non-narrow wizards 05:20:21 kilobyte: I agree, even though that's something that I've wanted for a while anyway :P 05:20:58 kilobyte: even just -1? 05:21:40 opposite schools should get a bigger malus obviously 05:22:21 -1 is not much, but since most schools oppose each other (not merely the elemental ones), it would be a straight nerf to almost all casters 05:23:08 what? there's no anti-training outside the elmental schools! 05:23:19 maybe there should be :P 05:23:23 no 05:23:32 not now, certainly 05:25:47 any magic skill slows training of other magic skills 05:26:06 including Spc, Evo, Invo 05:27:21 I didn't know that 05:27:26 that's really obscure! 05:27:34 i wonder how many people do 05:27:45 the elemental thing is obscure enough... 05:30:10 kilobyte: well, I certainly don't want to touch this mechanism. slower training, why not. The aptitude malus would apply only to elemental schools. I'm not even sure about non-opposite (fire/earth for example). But for opposite schools, it seems to me that an aptitude malus is a good idea. 05:31:14 quickly back: one of the advantages of galehar's idea to use an aptitude boost instead of crosstraining (or your averaging) is that players can _see_ the boost, right in the m screen. 05:31:40 dpeg: 05:31:57 I feel this boost should be displayed separately from racial aptitudes in the m screen 05:32:18 of course 05:32:26 just right next to it 05:32:34 Wensley: can display it any way we want, for example: "Short Blades: +2+1" 05:32:35 with a different color 05:32:37 right, just didn't want them getting added together 05:32:38 yes 05:43:24 galehar: I remember a few days ago you noting that you were having some kind of difficulty due to owning a non-qwerty keyboard, does crawl not feature default mappings for other keyboard standards? and if it doesn't, should it? 05:47:24 03kilobyte 07nomes * rbc11dbe6e7f4 10/crawl-ref/source/ (10 files): Sanitize braces, indents and whitespace. 05:48:43 about Nomes: I really, really hate the name. It is a misspelling from an obscure book, that is less than 300 years old, was fixed in later books in the cycle, is a pure misspelling (as the pronounciation is the same), and brings nothing new (these are Paracelsus' gnomes, vs D&D gnomes we had before). 05:50:58 I'm not too fond of the name myself, to be honest, even though I really like the race itself 05:52:37 among other problems I see, there is one big issue in the design and multiple in the implementation 05:52:49 the latter is just a matter of "let's fix that" 05:53:27 but what looks wrong to me is that they're invincible anywhere near a wall of thickness 1 or (preferably) 2 05:53:34 kilobyte: I never considered this species proposal to be serious.... then minced sent in a patch and due made a branch for it. Now people think they get two new species for 0.8 =) 05:53:46 kilobyte: yes, that looks quite broken 05:54:03 dpeg: nobody but me, minced, and eronarn even know about the branch 05:54:16 since everyone wants to be invincible, people will lead monsters from other parts of the level to that wall where they can fight them safely 05:54:23 I know about the branch! 05:54:28 kilobyte: yes 05:54:31 non-developer, I mean 05:55:06 it is exaggeration to say that people are expecting nomes in 0.8 05:55:16 kilobyte: do you think the species is serious enough that it _might_ go in? In this case I'd read the wiki and comment. 05:55:17 dpeg: the idea leaves a lot of problems, but it's definitely not something we should dismiss 05:55:28 others know, but that's probably everyone who cares a lot 05:55:29 ok, so I'll comment somewhen this week 05:55:34 Wensley: felids were a branch for 7 months, started pre-0.6 05:56:08 kilobyte: but branches can also disappear: dwarven halls 05:56:43 right, minced and eronarn and I talked for hours a few nights ago about this race, and I put an extensive list of suggestive changes on the wiki page for them. eight of those changes I consider to be absolutely essential, and are all nerfs 05:57:05 er, not "suggestive" changes... suggested changes 05:57:12 haha 05:57:17 man I keep doing that 05:57:28 dpeg: I'm not sure if the key feature of [g]nomes will turn out good enough. It has grave problems currently, being nerfed to not crossing walls as me and someone else proposed would remove most of its appeal, and slowness makes it suck later on. 05:57:49 dpeg: exactly... branches are good, they let us explore an idea without committing to it 05:58:26 yes, agreed 05:59:03 I think I could come up with ideas that keep the wall-walking but remove the brokeness. Cannot comment now, though. 05:59:07 dpeg and kilobyte: I only ask that you not dismiss the race out of hand, we're working hard to make something balanced, playable, and fun 05:59:15 I'll add that you.earth_attunement to trunk, since having branches with diverting tags is a major pain in the butt 05:59:47 Wensley: I think nobody is doing that. 05:59:55 glad to hear it :) 05:59:58 Wensley: we do not! No one says the problems are blockers! 06:00:40 when you have time you should read the wiki page if you are interested in making the race non-broken, the newest section was added by myself and is designed specifically to discuss how to make nomes more balanced 06:00:51 Wensley: as I said, will do 06:01:13 How many species do we currently have? 06:01:18 take your time. like I said, this race has hardly any visibilty 06:01:44 24 currently, I think 06:01:53 could stand to have less, in my opinion 06:01:57 only three more 06:02:03 27 is the goal! 06:02:16 Twentyseven diverse species. 06:02:23 Silver star tile (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2763) by coolio 06:02:51 we'll have to modify some of the existing races to achieve that goal... diversity is short in some places 06:03:10 Wensley: we've been doing that for years... easiest way is to remove a species :) 06:03:10 heh... coolio took the easy one. I wondered who will :p 06:03:23 and by that oh-so-clever remark I mean that halflings need to go :P 06:03:43 eeh... this one sucks 06:03:47 Wensley: +1 06:03:50 hehe 06:04:12 coolio's "star" has four arms, which looks just ugly 06:04:16 Before long, there will be discussions about the desired space for a species. How diverse is diverse enough? 06:04:48 dpeg: octopus is diverse enough 06:05:44 octopus race can attack in all eight directions simultaneously 06:05:58 and wield eight-handed weapons 06:06:08 (giant spiked giant spiked giant spiked clubs) 06:07:37 Wensley: nah 06:07:43 they just get eight ring slots 06:08:17 and a beak attack 06:08:25 they wield things like normal, for the same reason that humans don't wield a knife between each pair of fingers 06:08:38 *you* don't, maybe 06:08:52 i don't have fingers 06:08:54 I, on the other hand, am a model of bread-slicing efficiency 06:09:07 i just have exceptionally bony tentacles 06:09:37 (seriously, though: the tradeoff with octopus is lose boots, gloves, body armor slots; gain 6 ring slots) 06:10:00 i think this is an interesting enough thing to warrant a new race. we don't have anyone who gets non-standard amounts of jewellery right now 06:11:12 at this point i am sure of the idea being solid - i just am not sure what apts, HP, etc. i would give an octopus 06:12:14 (also, someone should add the book of antimagic idea to the wiki, if it wasn't last night) 06:12:45 amounts of jewelry were proposed for minotaurs (3) and felids (4) 06:13:21 I did not add the book of antimagic to the wiki last night, since it would require new spells to be implemented 06:13:43 what ones would you propose? 06:13:44 I think felids could get more jewelry slots and then get a nerf in some other way 06:14:05 kilobyte: one to brand a weapon with antimagic, and one to brand a shield with reflection 06:14:36 yeah, Wensley made a joke about a book with antimagic and silence 06:14:46 Eronarn: 8 rings is very powerful. Losing a few armor slots is far from enough to balance. 06:14:46 and i realized, that would actually be cool if you added other anti-mage spells 06:15:10 swiftness (to close faster), rmsl (to not get hit), antimagic brand (to kill casters), silence (to stop them from casting) 06:15:54 oh, and yes, ref brand shield 06:16:42 would be a strong book but that's not necessarily bad 06:16:54 03kilobyte * r19926691c7a4 10/crawl-ref/source/ (player.cc player.h tag-version.h tags.cc): Reserve a field in saves for the [g]nome patch. 06:17:13 3 for minotaurs? 06:17:28 one on their horns or their tail, maybe? 06:17:37 galehar: yes, of course - i was considering that they would not be able to wear armor, but also not have particularly good dodging, for instance 06:17:39 * dpeg is still wondering 06:18:13 nosering of course :) 06:18:13 if you've ever tried to hit an octopus with a cudgel, you'd know they're not the best at dodging 06:18:31 "noserings do not work like that" 06:19:00 you'd have to lose some hp every time you swapped it in or out 06:19:07 ow 06:19:14 since you'd be tearing out your nose cartilage 06:20:56 Wensley: about keymaps, crawl doesn't support alternate keymaps. It would be good to add that of course. 06:21:24 yeah, it could be losing half hp and being paralyzed for ~10 turns, so it would be a slot without tactical swaps 06:21:57 galehar: it'd be a matter of changing the defaults, not settings 06:22:19 and defaults are already hard-coded so having it look for your locale is not a problem 06:22:20 galehar: I was just thinking that it would be good to have default keymaps for people with alternate keyboards who don't know enough about crawl to remap keys themselves, like new players using qwertz (where vi keys for movement would be weird) or dvorak 06:23:10 and remapping keys doesn't work so well for non-standard layout 06:24:46 kilobyte: it's not that simple, because some command are affected to a key because the character make sense, and sometimes it's the key placement which is convenient. 06:25:02 kilobyte: new high elf drawback: it takes them 5x as long to swap equipment, because they must accessorize 06:25:05 so it would require some fine-tuning 06:25:34 03kilobyte 07nomes * r9482eac176e8 10/crawl-ref/docs/crawl_manual.txt: Rewrap the [g]nome manual entry. 06:25:39 03kilobyte 07nomes * r961a47b3f480 10/crawl-ref/source/ (34 files in 3 dirs): Merge branch 'master' into nomes. SAVE COMPAT BREAK (for old nomes only). 06:26:32 I think internationalizing crawl is a good goal... kind of weird to have the development server in europe and only support english :P 06:27:31 i want to see japanese crawl 06:27:53 I postponed the Unicode rewrite because it will need only bug but not balance testing, so branches/races should be coded first... but if you folks want translations, I may do it sooner. 06:27:54 Wensley: sure. Can you code? ;) 06:28:11 yeah, I can! <-- degree in computer science 06:28:16 I just have low self-esteem 06:28:23 and am sure I will destroy the code utterly 06:28:51 I know what you mean 06:28:57 because translations is something that would take time 06:29:13 when I start coding a feature, I always start slowly, afraid of breaking anything. 06:29:21 I think translation is something that would be reserved for big releases, like 1.0 06:29:33 later, I code with my axe, ready to mess up with dynamic aptitudes! :) 06:30:38 galehar: sounds great! 06:30:45 translating will be a huge project. Supporting alternate keyboard layout can be done anytime 06:31:02 "galehar is wielding a +9,+9 executioner's axe of nerfing." 06:31:08 lol 06:31:24 I am not sure about translation, btw... it needs a lot of effort and dedication. 06:31:41 you can talk to bhaak about it, he knows one or two bits about translation 06:32:41 dpeg: I think a reasonable goal would be to have a single non-english language version of crawl for 1.0 06:32:52 dpeg: I agree. Maybe in the distant futur, when we reach a stable feature set and have tens of developers 06:33:13 okay, so you know the deal :) 06:33:27 Wensley: no, I disagree. It's a waste of time to do that in a non-generic way. 06:34:10 kilobyte: what I am saying is to create a framework for making future translations easier, but I acknowledge that it is easier said than done 06:35:58 I've seen nethack-de, and I'd say that doing this with string lookup + placeholders (%s but for "noun in genitive") would be more maintenable than their way, with about as much difficulty 06:36:48 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 06:40:36 what order of magnitude are the bandwidth costs for cao/cdo? I'd like to make a donation one of these days, if I ever get some money (and if they accept donations) 06:42:33 kilobyte: the way it is done within drupal is basically that and it's quite easy to adopt into one's workflow 06:43:21 nht (L14 MiWn) ASSERT(mimic != NULL && mons_is_item_mimic(mimic->type)) in 'mon-stuff.cc' at line 174 failed. (D:13) 06:43:27 nht (L14 MiWn) ASSERT(mimic != NULL && mons_is_item_mimic(mimic->type)) in 'mon-stuff.cc' at line 174 failed. (D:13) 06:43:44 nht (L14 MiWn) ASSERT(mimic != NULL && mons_is_item_mimic(mimic->type)) in 'mon-stuff.cc' at line 174 failed. (D:13) 06:43:47 nht (L14 MiWn) ASSERT(mimic != NULL && mons_is_item_mimic(mimic->type)) in 'mon-stuff.cc' at line 174 failed. (D:13) 06:43:47 nht (L14 MiWn) ASSERT(mimic != NULL && mons_is_item_mimic(mimic->type)) in 'mon-stuff.cc' at line 174 failed. (D:13) 06:43:48 nht (L14 MiWn) ASSERT(mimic != NULL && mons_is_item_mimic(mimic->type)) in 'mon-stuff.cc' at line 174 failed. (D:13) 06:43:49 nht (L14 MiWn) ASSERT(mimic != NULL && mons_is_item_mimic(mimic->type)) in 'mon-stuff.cc' at line 174 failed. (D:13) 06:43:50 nht (L14 MiWn) ASSERT(mimic != NULL && mons_is_item_mimic(mimic->type)) in 'mon-stuff.cc' at line 174 failed. (D:13) 06:43:52 nice 06:43:53 nht (L14 MiWn) ASSERT(mimic != NULL && mons_is_item_mimic(mimic->type)) in 'mon-stuff.cc' at line 174 failed. (D:13) 06:43:56 nht (L14 MiWn) ASSERT(mimic != NULL && mons_is_item_mimic(mimic->type)) in 'mon-stuff.cc' at line 174 failed. (D:13) 06:44:00 nht (L14 MiWn) ASSERT(mimic != NULL && mons_is_item_mimic(mimic->type)) in 'mon-stuff.cc' at line 174 failed. (D:13) 06:44:03 nht (L14 MiWn) ASSERT(mimic != NULL && mons_is_item_mimic(mimic->type)) in 'mon-stuff.cc' at line 174 failed. (D:13) 06:44:06 nht (L14 MiWn) ASSERT(mimic != NULL && mons_is_item_mimic(mimic->type)) in 'mon-stuff.cc' at line 174 failed. (D:13) 06:44:09 nht (L14 MiWn) ASSERT(mimic != NULL && mons_is_item_mimic(mimic->type)) in 'mon-stuff.cc' at line 174 failed. (D:13) 06:44:12 nht (L14 MiWn) ASSERT(mimic != NULL && mons_is_item_mimic(mimic->type)) in 'mon-stuff.cc' at line 174 failed. (D:13) 06:44:15 nht (L14 MiWn) ASSERT(mimic != NULL && mons_is_item_mimic(mimic->type)) in 'mon-stuff.cc' at line 174 failed. (D:13) 06:44:18 nht (L14 MiWn) ASSERT(mimic != NULL && mons_is_item_mimic(mimic->type)) in 'mon-stuff.cc' at line 174 failed. (D:13) 06:48:29 I wonder if nht isn't going to tell us something 06:48:48 like "get off your asses you lazy bastards" 06:49:09 Eronarn: I don't know drupal, could you elaborate? 06:52:47 I think porting to handheld devices (iOS, android and WP7) is much easier and more important, so it should be a higher priority than translating 06:53:15 kilobyte: i mean that it uses string translation functions like you propose 06:54:16 t('%foo does %bar', $foo, $bar) sort of thing 06:54:17 galehar: console compiles out of the box on n900, I guess on android it should be mostly the same 06:54:41 kilobyte: the real work is getting the interface working, anyways 06:54:43 exactly. We just have to adapt to touchscreen interface 06:54:59 well, console + touchscreen = bad idea 06:55:07 why? 06:55:09 not necessarily 06:55:22 console is going to be a lot more legible than tiles on many small devices 06:56:01 and you will need some kind of long-press mechanism on either, there's simply too many areas on screen 06:56:35 not sure what sort of standards there are for software for mobile devices, seems like it would be a pain to get it working for a reasonable set of people, even if all their phones used the same os 06:57:38 well, there's mostly iOS, android and now Windows Phone 7 06:58:05 you could count the DS too... 06:58:07 my concern is on the part of the handset makers introducing proprietary stuff 06:58:56 -!- cw_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:00:15 Wensley: this is not a problem with android 07:00:34 it specifically is designed around android devices having a *LARGE* variety of possible morphologies 07:06:35 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Quit: Page closed] 07:06:35 Wensley: re donations, just ask Napkin. And look for rax's donations comments on the CAO page. 07:07:00 regarding major goals, I'd rate nettiles = handhelds > translations. 07:10:53 dpeg: I agree. But handheld support is also probably much easier than nettiles. 07:11:07 ideally, handhelds would *have* nettiles support 07:11:17 dpeg: handheld tiles support may be a single line change. I don't know anything about GLES, but my conversion almost worked. There's a black screen since texture loading fails, and I don't know why. 07:12:17 all of these: n900, iPhone, android (not sure if all or some) have GLES rather than GL 07:12:48 -!- cw_ has joined ##crawl-dev 07:13:41 galehar: oh, cool. That shifts emphasis, of course (towards handhelds). 07:14:10 kilobyte: did you talk to Enne about it? 07:14:17 kilobyte: that's just the low-level. As you said, shouldn't be too hard to fix. adapting the interface will be the bulk of the work. 07:16:43 I also really hate the whole GL stuff... 07:17:00 out of 5 environments I have, GL tiles fail on 3 07:18:44 Debian+nVidia: ok. Debian+radeon: hard crashes. XP in VirtualBox: broken unusable textures. XP in VirtualBox with their experimental 3D drivers: ok. n900: no GL (just GLES). 07:19:00 having normal 2D drawing would mean instant portability 07:19:03 including handhelds 07:19:54 but handheld have a GPU 07:20:06 accelerated drawing can help 07:20:17 for all handhelds I know, it's GLES not GL 07:20:17 especially if we implement zoom on pinching :) 07:20:42 dpeg: didn't I tell you that some people want or can only contribute money :) 07:20:49 well, I guess their graphics drivers can accelerate 2D as well or better 07:21:56 bhaak: yes, I recall :) 07:21:56 kilobyte: but nethack-de has the cool feature of being able to switch between personal and polite forms according to the role the player plays. :) 07:22:16 bhaak: heh 07:22:22 one thing we could do is, start coming up with mockups for the interface 07:22:26 do something like the usability project 07:23:05 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 07:23:33 if people would be willing to provide input, i would not mind going through the specs of current android phones and coming up with some common output/input specs 07:23:35 in Polish, you there's an issue of the player's gender. You can give all messages in present tense which is unwieldy, or in past which requires knowing the gender. (Both are correct.) 07:23:51 s/you // 07:24:10 I also tried to change the inner workings of nethack as little as possible. Crawl has the advantage of being the main development line, so you can include something that would ease translations 07:24:43 although, in the end, I think you wouldn't want to include something that eases translations but makes the standard english version harder to do 07:25:22 bhaak: anglocentrism!! 07:25:34 What's mine? 07:25:54 kilobyte: did it getfixed? 07:26:01 i was away, sorry, I can fixitnow 07:26:07 due: oooh, good to see you're not in bed yet 07:26:16 Eronarn: "everything sounds cooler in English anyway" :) 07:26:28 I made half-hearted attempts to reproduce it without nht's save, but nothing much. 07:27:51 I'll have a look 07:27:59 bhaak: I agree. When I think about how I could translate crawl in french (my native language) it always sounds lame 07:28:10 Did anyone get thebacktrace? 07:28:55 http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/nht/crash-nht-20101025-114355.txt but not an actual backtrace 07:28:58 galehar: I agree. This is why I wouldn't support a German translation much and rather stick to oddly worded English sentences (if by me). 07:29:38 as if dpeg's sentences wouldn't be oddly worded in German, either 07:29:59 kilobyte: it should do 07:30:04 maybe he's oddly minded... 07:30:06 -!- casmith789 has joined ##crawl-dev 07:30:22 galehar: well, I always use English locales. It was due to a traumatic memories of sitting on a PLD machine ~12 years ago and trying to read translated perl docs. Being decent in perl and native in Polish, I couldn't understand a word. 07:30:31 not much more than I am, but it seems I have a better brain filter installed 07:32:21 kilobyte: looksl ike I just made a few mistakes with get_mimic_item 07:32:59 galehar: either you are lame in translating or French is lame ;-) 07:32:59 kilobyte: I use french locales for the OS (used to it). But when I played commercial games, I never installed the awful translated versions ! 07:33:36 bhaak: Yellow maritime marshmellow. Shrimp shrimp shrimp! 07:37:01 Didn't wealready remove gnomes? 07:37:55 due: we are removing them once a year. 07:38:15 no! not the gnomes! 07:38:28 * dpeg opens a gnome and eats it. 07:38:57 first cats and now gnomes? It's only a matter of time before he comes after you! 07:57:10 03due * r1a871b1f2e6d 10/crawl-ref/source/travel.cc: Fix mimic issues with travel. 08:07:02 I guess this asks for a CDO update. 08:09:47 no one is doing one, right? 08:12:50 what would be a good word for a globally unique id for monsters? 08:13:33 monster->id() is taken, same as monster->type 08:14:35 Unstable branch on CDO updated to: 0.8.0-a0-2201-g1a871b1 (31.9) 08:15:36 how about "key" 08:16:51 global_id 08:17:00 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 08:17:30 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 08:17:49 is monster->id() the id of an instanciated monster? 08:18:39 it's same as monster->type -- ie, MONS_BAT or MONS_KRAKEN 08:19:41 pretty redundant actually... it's a function only because of players for whom it's MONS_PLAYER 08:20:48 so, how is it not a globally unique id? 08:20:58 why do you need another? 08:21:11 I mean monsters, not monster species. 08:21:15 ok 08:23:32 -!- Wensley has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:25:03 monster->social_security_number 08:25:44 more seriously: index or idx 08:33:02 Morning! 08:33:35 hi 08:48:23 -!- cw_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:59:23 -!- cw_ has joined ##crawl-dev 09:16:16 -!- Twinge has joined ##crawl-dev 09:35:33 nht (L14 MiWn) ASSERT(mimic != NULL && mons_is_item_mimic(mimic->type)) in 'mon-stuff.cc' at line 174 failed. (D:13) 09:44:31 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:48:51 -!- MadCoyote has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:49:07 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 09:49:12 -!- Zaba has quit [Changing host] 09:49:12 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 09:53:58 -!- MadCoyote has joined ##crawl-dev 10:02:33 -!- stabwound has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 10:03:04 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 10:15:25 -!- ortoslon has joined ##crawl-dev 10:25:49 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 10:34:28 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 10:56:58 -!- galehar has quit [Quit: Page closed] 11:34:11 -!- zergloli has joined ##crawl-dev 12:19:36 -!- monky has joined ##crawl-dev 12:22:26 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 13:04:36 03Cryp71c * rcdddb6616323 10/crawl-ref/source/ (mutation.cc mutation.h): Allow variable mutation scheduling within a facet 13:04:36 03Cryp71c * r4c5da88835d5 10/crawl-ref/source/mutation.cc: Additional comments for mutation ordering changes 13:07:52 !tell dpeg I've addressed one aspect of mutation scheduling...now the order that mutations occur in will be more reflective of that level of the facet's power (eg, Fire I and II are tier3, but the "Throw Flames" mutation should be fairly order in the list of mutations) 13:07:52 Cryp71c: OK, I'll let dpeg know. 13:10:27 !tell dpeg These changes affect only the order in which mutations are gained, and not the schedule (at what specific level the mutations are gained). 13:10:27 Cryp71c: OK, I'll let dpeg know. 13:11:37 -!- Pseudonut has joined ##crawl-dev 13:18:01 -!- ortoslon has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:19:52 -!- ortoslon has joined ##crawl-dev 13:57:08 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 14:09:16 -!- TGWi has joined ##crawl-dev 14:12:45 -!- cw_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:13:27 -!- cw_ has joined ##crawl-dev 14:23:25 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 14:23:26 -!- enne has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:24:48 -!- enne has joined ##crawl-dev 14:25:22 -!- ortoslon has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:48:40 -!- Wensley has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:15:17 -!- syllogism has quit [] 15:35:38 Three interface patches (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2764) by Arxale 15:58:28 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:22:43 -!- eith has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:36:42 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 16:51:02 Did everything work out with the compilation cronjob this morning? 16:51:02 Napkin: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them. 16:51:05 !messages 16:51:05 (1/2) Noom said (6h 4m 35s ago): can you delete level file for my character Noom on cdo? 16:51:41 !tell Noom which level file would you like deleted? 16:51:41 Napkin: OK, I'll let Noom know. 16:51:42 !messages 16:51:42 (1/1) Noom said (6h 4m 25s ago): i got blocked in volcano without any portal to get out 16:52:00 g'night 16:54:16 -!- galehar has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.11/20101012113537]] 16:56:52 !tell Noom Have you reported that buggy volcano? I don't see any recent fixes to that. Just working around bugs in actual games without fixing the cause does us no good. 16:56:52 kilobyte: OK, I'll let Noom know. 17:26:17 Tutorial rest message pops up too often (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2765) by eliotn 17:31:47 03galehar * re26b3a4ea261 10/crawl-ref/source/ (libutil.cc libutil.h windowmanager-sdl.cc): fix window placement for side and top window taskbar 17:45:16 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 18:30:18 does anyone know how important it is that the stuff in _player_reacts() stay in that order? 18:48:51 some parts do, most don't 18:49:00 of course, it's wonderfully undocumented 18:51:47 Pan vaults (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2766) by st 18:53:17 ok 18:53:40 I'm just leaving everything in order and adding a clause to a bunch of the ifs instead :P 18:57:15 in a vast majority of cases it's safe to reorder 18:59:07 ok 18:59:29 I just worry that reordering will throw off some subtle balancing thing that I won't be able to catch 19:22:59 evening 19:24:09 due: Evening. Did you see my praise on the malign gateway wiki page? 19:26:24 03kilobyte * r2a8ba2a2938f 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-place.cc: Add an assertion against placing MONS_SENSED or MONS_PLAYER. 19:26:27 03kilobyte * r62c370552c02 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/branches/dwarf.des: Dwarf Hall: fix entries. 19:26:28 03kilobyte * r859819637baa 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/branches/dwarf.des: Dwarf Hall: remove the tomb portal vault. 19:26:29 03kilobyte * rbce0903714d1 10/crawl-ref/source/ (6 files in 3 dirs): Dwarf Hall: drop "of Fallen Heroes". 19:26:33 03kilobyte * r5b04c0b1bb0c 10/crawl-ref/source/ (branch-data.h dat/des/branches/dwarf.des): Dwarf Hall: reduce it to a single level. 19:27:15 st_: it's redundant, we already know how it kick ass 19:27:26 ok, s/kick/slap with a tentacle/ 19:29:17 st_: not yet, sorry 19:29:36 did CDO update? I probably should've done it manually 19:29:38 !lm * type=crash 19:29:39 208. [2010-10-25] nht the Sharpshooter (L14 MiWn) ASSERT(mimic != NULL && mons is item mimic(mimic->type)) in 'mon-stuff.cc' at line 174 failed on turn 24464. (D:13) 19:39:15 -!- st_ has quit [] 19:41:31 -!- Pseudonut has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:41:54 ??options 19:41:54 options[1/1]: http://crawl.akrasiac.org/docs/options_guide.txt 20:11:19 anyone willing to help suggest numbers for balance? 20:11:29 (and able) 20:12:51 s/balance/great justice 20:13:45 valrus: numbers? 20:14:04 just trying to decide on piety drain for the new step from time 20:14:12 (which lets you stop everything and walk around) 20:15:08 valrus: try 1 piety per turn active, 10 piety to activate? 20:15:39 so you're thinking expensive up front but cheapish to maintain 20:16:13 the original proposal was that piety drain increases exponentially [sic] as you spend more turns out of time 20:16:34 also, should it be deterministic? 20:28:27 -!- Mu_ has quit [Quit: Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place.] 20:29:36 valrus: i don't think exponential works well for this particular ability because it encourages using it for very short actions 20:29:49 this seems like something you should have enough time to cross a room or whatever 20:30:12 generally as it is portrayed thematically, 'time stop' = big deal to stop time, but once you have, you have a bit to act 20:30:24 there aren't many time-stoppers that stop time, do a little bit, restart it, stop it again, do it a little bit, etc. 20:32:00 true 20:36:48 -!- Pseudonut has joined ##crawl-dev 20:44:41 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 21:18:12 -!- upsy has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:29:42 -!- zergloli has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:40:42 -!- zergloli has joined ##crawl-dev 22:02:51 -!- jld has quit [Ping timeout: 259 seconds] 22:08:48 -!- jld has joined ##crawl-dev 22:38:33 -!- Pseudonut has quit [Quit: Computer went to sleep] 22:40:47 -!- Pseudonut has joined ##crawl-dev 22:41:58 mimics seem really bad at choosing their identities 22:42:33 shouldn't they use the normal item generation routines? they seem to like showing up as randart dragon hides and stuff 22:43:00 like, not most of the time, but significantly more than real items do (i.e. not at all) 22:43:44 TGWi: i think you're actually looking at this from the wrong perspective 22:44:03 it's good if mimics appear over the top, because then it makes actually finding a real randart dragon hide or whatever kind of cool 22:44:04 "shouldn't randart dragon hides show up more often?" 22:44:19 'oh a randart demon blade mimic... wait, i didn't attack it?' 22:44:23 except you can sometimes predict mimics now 22:44:40 predict? 22:44:42 which sort of misses the point (if one exists at all) 22:44:47 identify without going near 22:45:17 honestly mimics are really boring; they're stationary and weak 22:45:40 yeah they shouldn't be stationary 22:51:08 -!- zergloli_ has joined ##crawl-dev 22:51:16 -!- zergloli has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:51:17 -!- zergloli_ is now known as zergloli 22:54:37 Eronarn: randart dragon hides are special cased to not exist 22:54:41 -!- TGWi has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:54:54 (the hide is promoted to armor in randartification) 22:55:35 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:56:56 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:01:01 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev