00:00:29 I thought eh, Nomes live near the mantle, they probably like fire. 00:00:36 But like you said, it could stand to be +0 00:00:44 oh, that's a decent reason 00:01:02 wasn't even considering that, leave fire as it is 00:01:26 0 is still an affinity for a race with aptitudes as specialized as a nome's, so the change could go in 00:01:34 but I do think that unarmed should be +1, if only because earth and transmutation are so inextricably linked 00:01:38 true 00:01:51 I think 0 is still the highest for any small race though 00:01:54 !apt kobold unarmed 00:01:54 Ko (SK_UNARMED_COMBAT)=0 00:01:56 oh 00:01:58 maybe not 00:04:58 I also sort of like the idea of them using shields, they could probably stand to have a lower stealth apt in exchange (they already get the stealth bonus for being small anyway, and I think adding some noise to stoneswimming is essential) 00:05:20 so +1 shields, 0 stealth 00:05:26 ok 00:05:35 ! apt shields 00:05:35 could you reproduce these comments on the wiki page? 00:05:48 certainly, I'm just talking out loud right now 00:05:53 or rather, thinking out loud 00:05:56 thanks, that will help a lot 00:07:42 what's their armor / shield apt atm 00:08:00 both 0 00:08:01 +1 0 00:08:04 oh 00:08:14 halflings have shields +1, for what it's worth 00:08:16 one thought would be, a design mechanic D&D had for dwarves could be reapplied here 00:08:21 go on? 00:08:36 in 3E, dwarves had move speed 20ft instead of 30ft, making them slower than humans 00:09:02 however, dwarves didn't get the same speed penalties for wearing armor that humans did 00:09:31 so they'd be a slow race, but have an easy time with armour/shields? 00:09:32 so you could have nomes be, say, bad at stealth, but not worse at stealth when they're wearing armor vs. wearing robes 00:09:41 I like that 00:09:45 oh that works 00:09:59 i don't think we have any races with that kind of design gimmick yet, and there are at least a few areas it could be applied here 00:10:11 makes sense flavor-wise: if they're used to moving around in solid rock, a little armour shouldn't matter too much. 00:10:26 put that on the wiki too 00:10:30 if nomes were naturally slow, we could also reduce the slowness penalties a bit for stonetunement 00:11:15 I mean, it makes sense that a race with short legs would be slow, spriggans have spoiled us 00:11:52 natural slowness is touchy, though, because of nagas 00:12:00 don't want to go too much into their design space 00:12:15 nagas have enough things going for them, I don't think we need to worry about that 00:12:39 naga get away with it because of their +5 stealth, which is crazy. nomes could handle it only because of wallswimming 00:14:38 eronarn: I know you said before that you felt that not having immunity in rock was unintuitive due to rock worms, do you think that's a really big deal? 00:15:57 Wensley: i think it is kind of a big deal, yes... i mean, i could see them working differently, but i would much rather one be changed to work like the other because they have near identical flavor 00:16:13 sometimes it's ok to sacrifice that for gameplay, but should be avoided when possible 00:16:20 I think you have a point, considering the initial reaction to nomes 00:16:54 it would probably be a lot easier to give rock worms more damage and AC when in rock than to make nomes in rock invulnerable 00:17:28 yeah, rock worms are so annoying that I don't think people would mind a bit of a nerf, and more damage from them while in rock would preserve the current strategies for fighting them 00:17:46 well I guess not for casters 00:18:58 I really do get a kick out of moving through walls, there's really nothing like it 00:20:30 it really is a unique way of doing recon... in a hallway, step into any wall blindly and see if there is a room on the other side 00:21:21 take that, secret doors 00:23:28 jesus christ, I really can't tell you how liberating it feels to cross through five one-tile wide hallways separated by one-tile wide walls 00:26:35 ah, it's also possible to move through two-tile wide walls, hadn't considered that 00:27:43 have you thought of letting nomes go through three tiles? i think it might feel more natural 00:28:13 I think it's powerful enough as it is, but I'm taking my time, still on d:2 00:28:15 like: either the tile has to connect to an open space, or it has to connect to two tiles that connect to open spaces 00:28:35 this lets them actually hide in rock, but you could make the merging effect much stronger when they do so 00:29:01 hiding in rock is really difficult to balance (think of the tomb card) 00:29:47 the flavor is that nomes still need to breathe, so they can only enter a tile that touches air. 00:30:07 lichform? 00:30:47 nomes entering rock is a bodily transformation, which liches cannot perform (being dead) 00:31:01 that would make lichform even more awesome for nomes though 00:31:48 I agree that bodily transformations shouldn't exist when inside walls 00:32:02 Right now, statue form is compatible with walls, but that's a five-second fix 00:32:36 I'm not sure what to do for earth-attuned spider form - should it still get slowed? 00:32:46 but! you get the same AC from being *outside* the wall for several turns after moving out of the wall. transformations should work *then*, retaining the AC bonus, to encourage people to not always be in walls and limit opportunities to abuse escaping through walls 00:33:29 right now, transformations work outside of walls. I think the AC carries over, but I'm not sure. 00:33:55 minced: i wonder how well it would work if the mechanics were basically: if you're inside a wall you have statue form cast on you; you can pass through any number of walls 00:34:21 75% speed leaving a wall is pretty hefty 00:34:32 true 00:34:46 eronarn: the problem then is that people might not leave the walls 00:35:56 Wensley: why will they want to leave the walls now? 00:36:48 Eronarn: to get back to 100% speed in ten or so turns. The 75% speed is a *killer* against some enemies. 00:37:41 you don't really :P but if you can move through any number of walls, you're guaranteed to be able to escape from anything, which is what a lot of people were worried this race would boil down to (currently you can only escape in certain situations) 00:38:20 if you're forced to be exposed to air at all times, it naturally limits the number of walls you can move through to 2 and makes sure you are always vulnerable 00:38:32 but yes, we do need something to encourage people to not always be in walls 00:39:05 Wensley: i don't think 'guaranteed escape' is that bad, if it takes say 1-3 turns 00:39:24 I don't think so either, but it takes 0 turns if you're already in the walls 00:39:31 there can be a separate penalty for moving through walls, apart from the statue form 00:39:48 and the statue form can continue for some minor duration (think 1-3 rounds) after leaving a wall 00:41:16 I'm considering adding a single turn to the delay of entering a wall regardless of earth attunement - that way an attuned nome still takes two turns to enter a rock wall. 00:41:49 and an unattuned nome takes three turns 00:43:21 that still only penalizes them for being out of the wall, and currently they have no real reason to not be in the wall in the first place 00:44:43 Wensley: I see. Do you think there should be some extra penalty for being inside a wall? 00:45:10 yes, either some ongoing penalty for being in the wall or some incentive to not be in the wall 00:45:21 my original stonetunement proposal failed to address this 00:45:45 man, this race would hate swamp 00:46:52 -!- Niccus has joined ##crawl-dev 00:47:02 that was sort of what attunement was meant to do: having each action take 12 units time rather than 10 outside of a wall means that wall-walking is a *complete* no-no near hellions, high priests, or anything with high speed 00:47:28 honestly that might be enough of an incentive, but it's not very visible at first 00:47:41 true, in early game it makes little difference. 00:48:06 we'd need to really stress that nomes are being slowed for being in walls to quiet the cries of "overpowered" 00:48:19 well, here's a question 00:48:31 is it a bad thing if nomes want to stay in walls as much as possible? 00:48:46 i don't think so, really, it's an interesting limitation 00:48:47 it doesn't have to be 00:48:52 I agree 00:48:57 I honestly don't think so, it makes open levels a big challenge. 00:49:12 especially since some open areas have stone/green crystal walls, which slow nomes even more 00:49:24 so then let's not go with any incentive to not be in walls, aside from transformations fizzling 00:49:32 and I do like that harder stone slows them more 00:49:46 I was considering making translocation spells fizzle in rock too 00:49:46 i personally think nomes would be more interesting if they were *really* in tune with walls, but leaving them was very risky 00:49:47 slowness is natural and a big drawback 00:50:07 minced: blocking self-tloc, i'd say 00:50:09 Eronarn: I considered adding a delay to leaving walls as well as entering - might still be viable. 00:50:11 let nomes still banish and such 00:50:18 eronarn: good idea 00:50:23 minced: if they're in statue form in a wall, they're at 75% move speed, so 00:50:27 minced: I don't think delay for leaving is necessary right now 00:50:40 they are still slowed, after all 00:50:52 -!- Niccus has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:51:02 whereas when they enter the wall they're at normal speed and take turns, or are slowed from still being in tune 00:51:29 -!- Niccus has joined ##crawl-dev 00:52:04 how often is permarock used, outside of the orb chamber? 00:52:37 -!- Niccus has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:52:51 by the way, i think drop metal, and possibly crystal 00:52:52 used for level borders, at least - other than that, just vaults 00:52:55 rock and stone is interesting enough 00:53:08 and it will make metal levels VERY scary for nomes 00:53:15 -!- Niccus has joined ##crawl-dev 00:53:21 is metal only used in vaults? 00:53:26 (the branch) 00:53:39 not quite, any dungeon level also has a chance to be metal after a certain depth 00:54:02 is dis metal or just colourful 00:54:07 it's metal 00:54:31 also metal: parts of the abyss 00:54:32 I sort of still want green crystal, and for nomes to be immune to fire/ice bolts while inside, but this is only because of green crystal's rarity 00:54:48 ??green crystal wall 00:54:48 green crystal wall[1/1]: Reflects cold and flame the way ordinary walls reflect lightning. Immune to digging, disintegration, and Lugonu's corrupt ability, but even easier to destroy with Lees Rapid Deconstruction than rock walls. Does not appear naturally (except rarely in the deeper Vaults - it is a very bad day if this happens on level 8), so signifies a vault. 00:55:14 ??metal wall 00:55:14 metal wall[1/1]: A wall of metal, presumably conductive, and immune to most magical effects. It absorbs lightning, and is extremely hard to destroy with Lee's Rapid Deconstruction. 00:55:49 yeah i could see crystal goign either way 00:55:52 currently, metal would slow you 150% and provide 8 + xl/4 AC 00:55:53 it's so rare it doesn't matter much 00:58:38 I think I'd like the symmetry of being able to walk through rock/stone/metal, but I agree that it would make metal levels an interesting challenge 00:59:20 we could reduce stone attunement to three levels, down from five: to 0 (air), 1 (rock), 2 (stone) 00:59:24 -!- Niccus has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:59:34 green crystal could just work like rock, unless we don't care 01:00:10 actually, what's more abundant throughout the entire game, rock or stone? 01:00:15 rock, by far 01:00:29 the vast majority of the game is rock 01:00:35 then green crystal should be treated like stone, if at all 01:01:02 yeah, I'm liking that they would be terrified of metal levels 01:02:11 minced, I think you've got a really solid idea for a race here, and I think we can disprove all the haeters who said it was impossible to balance 01:02:25 thanks! 01:02:50 would you two add comments to the wiki? 01:02:53 of course, I guarantee there'll still be a lot of opposition. let's err on the side of making them less powerful at the moment to help dispel those ideas 01:03:01 I certainly will, I just wanna play some more 01:03:24 -!- upsy has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:03:25 that's a pretty good endorsement of the idea =) 01:03:35 (the wanting to play more part) 01:04:19 :P 01:05:07 partly it's because I was really letdown by playing a passwall user of ash, and *this* is how I wanted passwall to feel 01:05:24 If you think about it, Crawl has some ridiculously powerful abilities: troll claws, cats' extra lives, merfolks' 50 polearms apt. None of them really break the game. 01:05:37 here's a random idea for nomes: they cannot eat while they are in walls, but still hunger 01:05:43 good idea 01:06:10 it will help cut down on some of the worst abuses of casting 01:06:11 I don't think that idea will matter much though, if you're able to rest while in a wall you can safely step out to eat 01:06:57 it's at least an excuse to get out of the wall every thousand turns or so, and we've already established that lichform won't worm in walls 01:07:03 *work 01:07:05 hmmm, with casting the idea has merit, although casting conjurations with delay 12 is still not great 01:07:45 it's worth keeping in mind as a balancing factor, anyhow, in case nomes hiding in walls spamming spells becomes an issue 01:09:02 -!- Twilight-1 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:09:06 -!- Twilight-1 has joined ##crawl-dev 01:09:58 I think ash might even be the go-to god for this race, scrying just isn't nearly as powerful for anyone else 01:10:18 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:11:27 whoa, that's a good point 01:12:16 btw, I pasted a summary of the discussion on http://pastebin.com/ng7aRkKk in case either of you need a reference when writing feedback 01:12:23 sure, thanks 01:12:27 I'll link to it when I do 01:14:24 the slowness is very noticeable when creatures are fleeing 01:14:38 o hai sigmund 01:15:04 hmm... entering walls can actually make situations worse 01:15:37 like, say, if there's an orc wizard and an orc priest on the other side of the wall that you entered to fight sigmund 01:16:15 .. did that just happen? 01:16:46 yes 01:16:53 and then the orc wizard came into our hallway 01:16:56 I was forced to flee 01:16:58 through the wall 01:17:06 the *other* wall 01:17:38 which fortunately was enemy-free 01:17:46 I really want to see this race in the game 01:18:40 I at least want to see the nomes branch on cdo for testing 01:18:41 this race also has potential as a speedrunning race 01:19:02 I think we can refine them a bit before it comes to that 01:19:48 i really think it's worth a shot allowing staying inside walls 01:20:06 if it could be balanced, it would be a very unique addition 01:20:39 and i'm not sure it's unbalanceable - there aren't that many situations where it's better than a character with access to dig, blink, teleport, etc. 01:20:58 most importantly: remove hp bonus for being in walls, add slow movement outside of walls (like naga, and without slowed actions, like naga), add noise for moving through walls, remove ability to move through metal walls. true, these are all nerfs, but we need to convey that this race isn't overpowered to be taken seriously 01:21:13 (heck, you could make nome teleport-resistance an intrinsic feature, whether in walls or not) 01:21:28 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 01:22:55 minced: your idea of an additional turn delay is a good one, now that I've had some time to think about it 01:23:06 turn delay for entering walls, that is 01:23:55 got it, added all three recent comments to pastebin 01:24:09 another random idea: using sandblast within a wall could count as wielding a stone 01:24:16 cute 01:24:19 casting shatter from within a wall should be a very bad idea 01:24:40 Wensley: LRD-casting monsters!! 01:24:56 cacodemons should get LRD to replace dig 01:26:09 yes, and they should use it even if it'll hit their 5s 01:26:22 also they should be able to bloodlust their 5s 01:26:37 hordes of screaming, raging demons turning into explosions 01:26:47 casting dig from within a wall should erase the wall square you're standing in 01:26:54 Eronarn: +100 01:27:22 Wensley: monsters zapping disintegrate at you should do the same 01:27:30 true 01:28:13 yes, currently dig does *not* erase the wall square you're standing in, we should special-case this to prevent dig being used to create infallible escape routes 01:28:31 imo cacodemons should always know player position and dig loudly, attracting a band and luring it to you (this is how I interpret their behavior before monsters stopped knowing player position all the time) 01:28:34 especially since *every* nome is going to want dig anyway 01:30:13 nomes of lugonu would be murderous speedrunners 01:32:05 thought: maybe nomes shouldn't be able to summon while inside walls 01:32:27 this just screams abuse 01:32:57 summon a bunch of shit, then run through a wall to get away 01:33:16 the nuclear option would be to restrict nomes to *only* moving while inside walls. it's not what I want, but someone's going to suggest it at some point 01:33:27 nah, fighting in walls is basically okay 01:33:37 so what if they can get away in 2-3 turns? so can spriggans 01:33:59 minced: summons are due to be nerfed anyway, so that they won't fight outside of LOS 01:34:10 the real issues are a) abuses where you do something, then leave LOS b) abuses where you can duck out of LOS easily every time you start to lose at no risk 01:34:17 and it's not like "summon a bunch of shit, then teleport away" isn't already a valid tactic 01:34:32 if there are none of those, even unrestricted travel through walls actually wouldn't be that broken 01:35:23 i don't think b) is much of an issue, simply because if they have statue form speed plus an additional 1 turn to enter a wall, they're taking 2 to 3 turns to leave LOS 01:35:37 more if they only started adjacent to a wall 01:36:19 this isn't astoundingly broken and i think it could actually be a bit underpowered if they were very weak when not using that 01:36:33 a) is a definite issue though - clouds, summons the worst offenders 01:37:42 for clouds, of coure, they can have TERRIBLE air apt 01:37:50 It's -4 01:38:17 still, let's keep the current wall-walking restrictions until we can convince the likes of dpeg that it isn't irreparably broken, *then* let's look into making it more powerful 01:38:30 as it is, it's still very interesting, and having limitations makes it more interesting 01:38:56 dpeg actually really liked this idea when I proposed it on the SF tracker, so no worries there. 01:39:46 the general dev commentary was "nomes *can* be made balanced if you nerf wall-walking enough, the trick is finding the appropriate nerf level" 01:40:26 autoexplore with nomes would be interesting 01:40:30 I think greensnark at least thought it was unbalanceable 01:40:37 make it explore floor only if you start on floor 01:40:42 explore walls only if you start on walls 01:40:57 this way you don't get caught merged 01:41:43 currently autoexplore goes directly to air if you're in rock and only explores air, which is still reasonable behavior. 01:45:07 btw I think nomes will love the (non-metal) vaults levels =) 01:46:33 oh man 01:46:40 minced: gnomes in glass should become invisible 01:46:54 I thought of that too. 01:47:00 that would indeed be awesome. 01:47:07 but it can get more awesome 01:47:14 if they get hit while there 01:47:24 it becomes bloodstained glass, and they're now visible 01:49:18 btw I think I'm going to bed now (I'm in the eastern time zone). Thanks for the commentary. 01:49:25 I really feel that nomes can be balanced now. 01:49:38 and fyi the pastebin link is at http://pastebin.com/ZpwmH5f5 01:51:01 (contains conversation up to this point, subject to my editing of course) 01:51:35 -!- minced has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:25:22 -!- Pacra has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:32:58 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:35:15 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 03:14:57 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 03:28:47 ??spellpower 03:28:48 spell power[1/5]: (Spellcasting/2 + 2*avg school skill) * INT divided by 10 * (1.5 ^ enhancer count). Now halve the part over 50, halve the part over 100, halve the part over 150, and plain cap at 200. Negative enhancers use 0.5, not 0.66. 03:40:01 !tell minced Suggested changes for nomes written to the wiki page. Look over them and start implementing any that you like, especially the ones in "essential changes" 03:40:01 Wensley: OK, I'll let minced know. 03:40:36 -!- monky has quit [Quit: hello] 03:40:41 hiii children 03:40:42 -!- Wensley has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.17/2009122204]] 04:22:14 -!- Pseudonut has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:29:53 -!- Pseudonut has joined ##crawl-dev 04:34:34 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 04:47:19 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 04:50:06 !seen due 04:50:06 I last saw due at Sun Oct 24 08:40:41 2010 UTC (1h 9m 25s ago) saying hiii children on ##crawl-dev. 04:50:16 due: still here? 04:52:49 yes 04:52:51 kilobyte around? 04:53:46 Spider Form wall clinging. (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2757) by Arxale 04:53:52 due: did you discuss Nomes before pulling them into trunk? 04:53:57 Wow! 04:54:12 dpeg: they're not in trunk? 04:54:27 I pulled them into a branch because some people were having trouble applying the patch 04:54:48 due: ah, I missed that. Good! 04:57:56 yes 04:57:59 sky beasts are in 04:58:39 due: yes, I saw :) 04:58:48 without a tile 04:58:49 enne may slaughter me 04:59:13 Enne won't slaughter you, but rather commit a tile. 04:59:59 well, I believe there was calls for "jude must make tiles for new monsters" complaint earlier :) 05:00:11 i don't think the sky beast has been noticed by enne's eagle eye yet, though, so i should be safe 05:03:10 What about the call of "he who adds a new monster should also remove an old monster"? :) 05:03:34 because I can't be fucked to ttouch enum.h and have to recmopile everything 05:05:09 That's not a particularly good reason, to be honest. Someone will have to touch enum.h. 05:07:21 due: but we'd have to choose a list of monsters to throw away first anyway. 05:07:42 I am just trying to set up a mood where "just add a new monster" is as normal as "let's remove this one". 05:07:44 i'm going to do something with rrats shortly 05:07:51 oh i agree 05:08:21 Giant beetles should go 05:08:37 another good target, yes 05:08:49 we should probably have a wiki page of endangered monsters 05:09:21 agree 05:09:28 yaks 05:09:47 boulder beetle 05:12:37 for yaks, I proposed something 05:12:53 boulder beetle also had an idea somewhere (they could turn into boulders) 05:19:26 giant mite 05:19:32 hippogriff, griffon 05:19:34 also some fish 05:19:35 yes 05:19:47 I'll set up a wiki page with these ideas later today 05:19:53 perhaps there is already one :) 05:20:05 elephant slug... 05:20:11 i would say snails but i just made them interesting 05:20:20 grey or green rats should go 05:20:31 giant centipede 05:21:10 giant blowfly 05:21:52 we need to cut down on bears, too many, too boring 05:22:03 yes 05:22:23 giant slugs and elephant slugs are redundannt 05:22:30 and giant amoeba are really pointless too 05:22:39 boring beetles are pretty boring 05:22:51 someone made a suggestion of gargoyles actually turning into/back from statues 05:23:15 also, I am making a mollusc lord unique. 05:23:20 Does anyone have any info on what it was supposed to be? 05:23:43 boring beetles just got a patch which makes them dig better 05:24:22 oh nice 05:27:33 dorgi? 05:28:10 former klowns or orbs of fire, I think 05:29:27 -!- upsy has joined ##crawl-dev 05:29:54 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 05:30:45 Hi! 05:30:52 Hi 05:31:11 I had a great idea to solve the cross-training abuse 05:31:33 delighgtful 05:31:45 -!- Pseudonut has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:31:53 instead of making the skill gain more skill points, give an aptitude bonus 05:32:04 no 05:32:15 for some reason 05:32:28 i'm certain that modifying aptitudes in-game has been a very "no" concept since day 05:32:32 *day 1 05:32:45 there is a cross-training abuse? :-O 05:32:51 hi guys :) 05:32:56 hi 05:33:09 @??sky beast 05:33:09 unknown monster: "sky beast" 05:33:10 When you cross train, you gain skill points faster 05:33:19 which you can reskill somwhere else 05:34:01 "reskill"? 05:34:34 but also, cross-training (and stealth) have this problem that because they grant more skill points, your total skill points grows faster than normal. So skill cost becomes higher faster 05:34:46 reskill is the new (controversial) Ash ability 05:35:38 The underlying problem is that a skill value does not accurately reflect xp. 05:38:11 -!- casmith789 has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:38:37 galehar: just disabgle cross-training for reskilled abilities 05:38:53 due: that's exactly what I suggested yesterday. 05:39:00 then whynot do it? 05:39:08 two brilliant minds (mine and yours) have come up with the concept 05:39:11 certainly it is infallible 05:39:11 I think that getting the crosstraining only once makes sense for all points of view. 05:39:26 due: someone was against it... I think TGW (claimed?) to not understand it. 05:39:56 And then there was the sniping comment by monky that "if we need hacks like this to fix the idea (reskilling), then the idea itself is flawed". 05:40:19 um 05:40:23 yes :) 05:40:26 if we didn't implement stuff because tgw didn't understand it 05:40:29 galehar: what do you think about due's idea? 05:40:31 we would be playing baby's first roguelike 05:40:47 well, this is backward 05:40:50 due: personal attack ==> not necessary 05:41:03 galehar: please explain 05:41:03 dpeg: i'm in a narky mood 05:41:07 dpeg: he knows i love him 05:41:16 have to go 05:41:25 !tell tgwi just fyi i still love you 05:41:26 due: OK, I'll let tgwi know. 05:41:28 why yes 05:41:34 i am drunk after a fashion 05:41:47 due: :-* 05:41:52 galehar: okay, please explain later 05:41:59 napking! <3 05:42:13 napeking? 05:42:19 i need to update the spanish inquisition 05:42:29 hehe 05:42:38 ... no, @?? 05:42:49 or is that on a cronjob? 05:42:51 can is till do it manually? 05:43:18 yes, you should be able to 05:43:38 i fixed this renamed monsters* to monster* 05:44:57 exceeelent 05:45:44 back 05:45:57 Hi galehar :) 05:46:02 so, the problem is that cross-trained skill gain x3 the XP 05:46:07 yes 05:46:16 which you can reskill to another skill 05:46:40 so the "forbid" solution is to prevent reskilling of cross-train skill 05:46:42 another idea is to simply account those xp gains and deduct them for reskilling... but that's a bit ugly (since m information is not all you need to look at) 05:46:50 galehar: yes 05:46:51 yes 05:47:07 and I think an aptitude bonus is possible 05:47:25 instead of granting more xp, lower the amount of xp needed to gain level 05:47:38 I can code it to prove my point :) 05:47:40 @??sky beast 05:47:40 sky beast (11I) | Speed: 10 | HD: 5 | Health: 17-39 | AC/EV: 3/13 | Damage: 511(elec:5-6) | Flags: fly | Res: 06magic(20), 11elec+++, asphyx | Chunks: 06mutagenic | XP: 130. 05:47:44 hm 05:47:49 it needs a flag "invisible" 05:47:59 @??portal mimic 05:47:59 portal mimic (10\) | Speed: 10 | HD: 8 | Health: 30-58 | AC/EV: 5/1 | Damage: 1208(poison), 12, 12 | Flags: 11non-living | Res: 06magic(32), 05fire, 02cold, 10elec++, 03poison | XP: 465. 05:48:51 and as I said, it also solve an existing problem that players using stealth and cross-training have more total skill points and thus have slower skill training 05:49:23 galehar: this is one of the issues SinsI brought up? 05:49:31 not really 05:50:08 I don't think he really understand the mechanism 05:50:43 yes, I was confused about what he wanted 05:51:24 galehar: for the purpose of getting SBl up when you have LBl (say), your solution would be the same as the old one, as far as the player is concerned? 05:51:34 he talked about the skill training being slower when you have lots of skill points, but he said nothing about stealth and cross-training. Just about useless low level skills 05:51:45 dpeg: yes 05:51:56 you still gain level 3 times faster 05:52:28 galehar: how would it solve the reskilling issue? 05:53:28 well, you wouldn't get more skill points, just more level 05:53:58 if you reskill from sbl, they skill is drained fast, and you don't get a lot of xp from it 05:54:21 if you reskill from lbl, you lose lbl, but also you apt bonus, so you lose sbl too! 05:54:48 I can put the details in an email on c-r-d 05:54:57 ah, I completely see it now 05:55:01 looks good to me 05:55:21 We would have only to change the bit on crosstraining in the manual (not much actually) and that's it. 05:57:09 the only issue, is what to do when SBl goes higher than long LBl, you have swap the skill points from LBl to SBl, and give LBl the apt bonus. If the racial apt are different, there is the possibility that the action add (or substract) from total skill points 05:57:23 s/swap/to swap/ 05:57:48 but I have to test it to see if this is really an issue 05:58:58 also, what do you think about making the disabling skill factor (4+2*skill_level/3) instead of 4? 05:59:36 galehar: re disabling 05:59:58 I was toying around with (3+skill_level), so 1/4 at level 1, 1/30 at level 30 06:00:24 ok, so even stronger 06:00:27 and linear (like yours or mine) might be too slow, but it's an improvement over O(1) :) 06:08:12 that last sentence doesn't make much sense for a computer scientist, you know? :) 06:19:36 is constant = O(0) ? 06:20:45 O(1) is okay, but usually O(1) is splendid :) 06:21:56 and "an improvement over O(1)" isn't really possible 06:22:20 I see :) 06:33:30 O() is a unit of algorithm complexity (or efficiency). I don't know the notation for polynomial degree. 06:39:10 f(n) = O(g(n)) means that f(n) is limited by g(n) for high values of n, or something 06:44:18 ... I'm confused 06:47:10 given two positive real numbers c and n[0], for all n > n[0], |f(n)| <= c * |g(n)|. Or so. I'm not a mathematician or a computer scientist. 06:47:47 yes, which is why O(1) would be mean constant, and O(n) linear and so on 06:50:24 usually in regards of input data 06:51:20 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 07:15:19 -!- casmith789 has joined ##crawl-dev 07:20:05 -!- blackpenguin has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:42:16 -!- casmith789 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:42:29 -!- casmith789 has joined ##crawl-dev 07:45:47 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 07:50:02 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Quit: Page closed] 07:51:49 03galehar * r0e94378b8f06 10/crawl-ref/source/ (delay.cc enum.h initfile.cc it_use3.cc): wield and evoke take 2 turns 07:58:50 -!- galehar has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.11/20101012113537]] 08:20:41 I have bested thee, tiles! 08:24:54 I must admit, it is totally imopssible to depend on depend files. 08:29:29 -!- casmith_789 has joined ##crawl-dev 08:30:05 -!- casmith789 has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 08:30:59 -!- casmith_789 is now known as casmith789 08:31:31 03due * r6b9a623db16a 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-place.cc: Add the dash to a comment. 08:31:32 03due * r87120d8f88f7 10/crawl-ref/source/ (mon-place.cc mon-stuff.cc): Complete feature mimics: stair mimics. 08:31:35 03due * r7febd3b1914a 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-pick.cc: And actually place mimics in the various levels. 08:31:36 03due * rb5df3eb67abe 10/crawl-ref/source/ (tilepick.cc tileview.cc): Partially implement feature mimics in tiles. 08:35:08 WHO CHANGED ENUM.H RARGH 08:35:18 * due beats galehar WITH A LARGE BASEBALL BAT >:0 08:37:18 * Mu_ massages due. 08:38:18 mmmm 08:38:25 tiles feature mimics are totally broken 08:40:46 I sent a "ahhh plz help" email to enne. 08:40:49 * due flutters eyelashes at enne. 08:53:11 -!- TGWi has joined ##crawl-dev 08:59:00 due: re: disabling cross training for reskilled abilities 08:59:10 that doesn't solve the exploit I was talking about 09:00:11 which is "raise sbl to N, raise lbl to N with the benefit of cross-training, reskill sbl to lbl" 09:00:34 the end result of which is that your first N levels of lbl were trained at half the cost 09:01:08 you can also reskill sbl *and* lbl to somewhere completely different and you've come out with more experience than you put in 09:02:46 also I love you too 09:05:52 the solution (barring "disable reskilling for cross-trained skills" which is a wee bit silly) is to separately record how much actual experience was put into a skill, I think 09:07:23 the solution is to do something other than reskilling 09:09:43 -!- greensnark has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:10:31 also, that last solution doesn't work, sorry 09:11:15 because even if you can't manufacture exp by taking it back out of lbl, you've still raised your first N levels for half price 09:11:20 and sbl is free to be put wherever 09:11:35 TGWi: there's also opportunity cost to think of 09:15:59 elaborate 09:16:31 let's say you want to add ench to your other skills 09:16:38 if you wanted to do this normally you'd have to victory dance 09:16:58 this means a significant chunk of your skill is not going to improving your other skills, but only to ench 09:17:12 -!- blackpenguin has joined ##crawl-dev 09:17:12 however, you have to actually progress in the game to gain more XP 09:17:31 so 'i want to learn enchantments' means 'i need to do a branch or two while not raising my other skills' 09:17:42 (or farm) 09:17:50 oh 09:18:38 with ash you can just stick with your main skill, and yes you lose some XP in the conversion, but you also got to wait until you had enough XP to fully finish training ench before putting any XP into it at all 09:21:12 -!- ortoslon has joined ##crawl-dev 09:23:22 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 09:33:10 -!- cw_ has joined ##crawl-dev 09:33:32 TGWi: but galehar's proposal seems robust 09:33:38 what was that again? 09:34:05 instead of crosstraining giving free xp, make it lower the other skill's aptitude 09:34:13 TGWi: We can even show that in the m screen! 09:34:27 Which is good because it explains cross-training. 09:34:57 what happens if you raise the cross-trained skill past the other skill? 09:35:15 the other skills gets the benefit, as it should be 09:35:29 then what happens if you reskill the other skill? 09:35:32 You're now more proficient with LBl (say), so it's easier to train SBl some more. 09:35:34 let me be clearer 09:35:43 it is exactly like now, only un-hidden 09:35:58 that doesn't solve the exploit, though, does it? 09:36:17 it does 09:36:18 if you train lbl past sbl then reskill sbl to lbl, wouldn't that still work? 09:36:19 train SBl to 14, train LBl to 14, reskill SBl to fighting. 09:36:29 or sbl to anything, yeah 09:36:36 12:53 <+galehar> if you reskill from sbl, they skill is drained fast, and you don't get a lot of xp from it 09:36:39 12:54 <+galehar> if you reskill from lbl, you lose lbl, but also you apt bonus, so you lose sbl too! 09:36:51 okay, what if you train sbl to 3 09:36:54 then train lbl to 6 09:36:56 then reskill sbl 09:37:00 12:57 <+galehar> the only issue, is what to do when SBl goes higher than long LBl, you have swap the skill points from LBl to SBl, and give LBl the apt bonus. If the racial apt are different, there is the possibility that the action add (or substract) from total skill points 09:37:02 how much is drained from lbl? 09:37:04 12:57 <+galehar> s/swap/to swap/ 09:37:07 12:57 <+galehar> but I have to test it to see if this is really an issue 09:38:01 -!- cw_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:38:19 oh 09:38:19 you lose long blades as you lose short blades? 09:39:24 depends on the numbers, I guess 09:39:35 but the basic idea is so simple, we just have to work out the details 09:40:06 10:36 <@dpeg> 12:54 <+galehar> if you reskill from lbl, you lose lbl, but also you apt bonus, so you lose sbl too! 09:40:14 this sound very intuitive and easy for players to grasp 09:40:19 and will not result in a lot of ragequits at all 09:40:40 dpeg: the math is not that simple 09:42:32 give me a minute to try to wrap my head around this 09:45:19 well, the idea is too confusing to abuse 09:46:03 :) 09:49:41 dpeg: hey, thought: how would you feel about dropping Yred's animate dead ability (which is basically just a replicated spell), and giving him a reaping-like effect (except possibly one that can make stuff better than zombies, or that can work on your spells as well as your weapons) 09:50:28 Inconsistencies when evoking with 'V' (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2758) by MarvintheParanoidAndroid 09:51:20 -!- cw_ has joined ##crawl-dev 10:12:34 dpeg: so are skills stored as an amount of exp which is compared to an aptitude? 10:14:53 TGWi: I don't know. 10:14:57 hm 10:15:02 could be done, of course 10:17:08 well, galehar's proposal seems to break regular cross-training 10:17:16 TGWi: how? 10:17:28 if you just swap the exp points and reapply the aptitudes they could come out to completely different values 10:17:33 You get an aptitude boost for the weaker skill, so training it is faster, just as now. 10:17:52 TGWi: you cannot do that with regular cross-training 10:18:12 "the only issue, is what to do when SBl goes higher than long LBl, you have swap the skill points from LBl to SBl, and give LBl the apt bonus. If the racial apt are different, there is the possibility that the action add (or substract) from total skill points" 10:18:17 this is what that's saying, no? 10:19:05 another thing, if the apts are actually modified by cross training 10:19:26 what happens to my lbl skill if I train it to 5, then train sbl to 10? does it increase? 10:23:06 the skill is not affected, as far as I can see 10:23:59 ah, I see :) 10:24:16 I'll wait until galehar is here so he can hold my hand 10:24:37 yes, same here :) 10:51:38 03dolorous * r0c1a5d700c70 10/crawl-ref/source/beam.cc: Add formatting fixes. 11:08:51 03dolorous * re9ba3ad04135 10/crawl-ref/source/ghost.cc: Remove unneeded blank line. 11:08:54 !tell due I can't believe you committed monsters without tiles! What's the world coming to? *dramatic sigh* 11:08:54 enne: OK, I'll let due know. 11:15:32 -!- Danei has joined ##crawl-dev 11:40:15 -!- TGWi has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:46:18 -!- TGWi has joined ##crawl-dev 11:57:39 03dolorous * r2e627fd2162f 10/crawl-ref/source/beam.cc: Add minor cosmetic fixes. 11:57:48 03dolorous * rab3dec36ba2b 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-cast.cc: Add more spacing fixes. 11:57:49 03dolorous * ra5db56ccd674 10/crawl-ref/source/ (7 files): Add monster spell Noxious Cloud (like Poisonous Cloud, but mephitic). 12:01:01 -!- monky has joined ##crawl-dev 12:16:18 "Tiny" description confusing for felids (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2759) by nubinia 12:30:26 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:36:24 Window appears off top of screen (Win7 pro) (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2760) by smock 12:41:26 Randart amulet with faith not fully autoinscribed (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2761) by Nexos 12:49:12 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 13:01:39 -!- Pseudonut has joined ##crawl-dev 13:49:50 03kilobyte * re65e059d8a7c 10/crawl-ref/source/ (3 files in 3 dirs): Add psyshvl's tile for spriggan assassins. 13:49:57 enne: tile _before_ the monster, this time! 14:04:06 kilobyte: well done :) 14:06:10 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 14:37:17 -!- eith has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:41:27 -!- Pseudonut has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:00:47 -!- ortoslon has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:09:33 why did Ash refuse to ID this ring? n - the cursed ring of Paudos {rF+ rN+ SInv} 15:10:12 do you have both rings cursed? 15:10:19 no, just one 15:10:31 she'd ID others though 15:11:39 this is only for rings that would auto-id on wearing 15:17:07 this could probably be conveyed better, I too was under the impression that ash would auto-id everything at first 15:20:36 in practice, it's really annoying to have things randomly ID 15:20:44 they should either all ID, or all not 15:22:12 yes, I assumed things like books and manuals would ID on the floor too 15:38:17 -!- syllogism has quit [] 15:45:58 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 16:02:35 purple draconian breath has effect on berserk speed bonus (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2762) by Porkchop 16:06:35 -!- casmith789 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:06:41 -!- casmith_789 has joined ##crawl-dev 16:13:17 -!- Wensley has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:14:03 -!- casmith_789 is now known as casmith789 16:45:31 -!- minced has joined ##crawl-dev 16:45:56 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 17:03:56 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:13:24 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 17:14:10 03galehar * rb0472ca46d5e 10/crawl-ref/source/ (invent.cc it_use3.cc): add rods and staves to the V screen (and auto-wield) 17:28:09 did you see https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:rc#allow_large_races_to_throw_corpses_and_other_heavy_items 17:29:28 FR: biological warfare 17:29:44 corpses are awkward 17:30:21 the 3 fantastic and fabulous reasons 17:30:27 are pretty fantastic and fabulous 17:31:52 -!- galehar has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.11/20101012113537]] 17:33:27 I'm re-doing berserk. Do we want to keep "You feel yourself moving faster! You feel mighty!" after the "red film" message? 17:46:19 03kilobyte * r111d5aca1096 10/crawl-ref/source/fight.cc: Fix Blade Hands being better for STR and DEX of multiplies of 4. 17:46:20 03kilobyte * r7651da594046 10/crawl-ref/source/mutation.cc: Felids: fix a wrong message about armour due to their new size of -2. 17:46:24 03kilobyte * rc74a49edd824 10/crawl-ref/source/ (11 files): Rename DUR_BERSERKER to DUR_BERSERK. 17:46:26 03kilobyte * r0489174fe544 10/crawl-ref/source/ (12 files): Remove the link between berserk and haste+might. 17:53:38 are we going to adopt 4.1's "exhaustion doubles action cost, but it's not DUR_SLOW and not affected by AMULET_RESIST_SLOWING"? 17:55:56 well, that amulet is gone now 18:01:13 actually, stasis allowing berserk might not that bad an idea 18:01:27 ^be 18:39:56 -!- valrus has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:45:42 kilobyte: that was my idea :( 19:01:45 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 19:40:19 -!- Mu_ has quit [Quit: Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place.] 20:09:07 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 20:20:49 -!- eith has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:29:24 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 20:29:43 enne: Eek. 20:29:43 due: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 20:29:55 !messages 20:29:56 (1/1) enne said (9h 21m 2s ago): I can't believe you committed monsters without tiles! What's the world coming to? *dramatic sigh* 20:30:05 I should've seeeeen that coming. 20:30:16 enne: :D 20:30:26 due: you make me *sick* 20:30:32 -!- Wensley has quit [Client Quit] 20:30:49 Thank you, I try. 20:30:59 I try so very, very hard... 20:31:07 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 20:39:47 Hi Wensley. 20:39:55 yo due 20:40:15 thanks for making nomes so easy to access, I played around with them last night and they make me very excited 20:40:43 ... that's not really the sort of thing one talks about in a public channel. 20:40:57 ?? 20:40:57 I mean, I know some people have weird fetishes, but... a player race in a computer game? 20:41:01 That's just a bit much, even for you. :p 20:41:07 elly <3 20:41:12 that seems entirely appropriate for ##crawl-dev 20:41:40 It was the "they make me very excited" comment I was misconstruing deliberately in a sexual sense. 20:41:45 I'm just saying, I couldn't have done it without you :P 20:43:43 :o 20:43:50 Wow, now I'm part of the fantasy! 20:43:51 Cool. 20:44:16 hot 20:44:26 due, let's have crazy hot developer-on-channel-fairy sex 20:46:03 ok 20:46:45 !lubricant due 20:58:29 -!- upsy has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:07:42 03due * rae2e033d4b13 10/crawl-ref/source/tilepick.cc: Properly make feature mimics work with tiles. 21:09:13 ...fairy? 21:11:27 I see eronarn wants in on this too 21:37:59 -!- minced has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:37:16 -!- Wensley is now known as Wenzell 22:37:45 -!- TGWi is now known as TGWensley 22:38:29 -!- Wenzell is now known as Wensley 22:40:01 -!- TGWensley is now known as TGWi 22:43:22 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:03:44 -!- minced has joined ##crawl-dev 23:04:23 -!- minced is now known as meownced 23:24:29 -!- Pseudonut has joined ##crawl-dev 23:31:47 Windows development builds on CDO updated to: 0.8.0-a0-2199-gae2e033 23:49:06 Unstable branch on CDO updated to: 0.8.0-a0-2199-gae2e033 (31.8) 23:49:55 mmm delicious 23:52:22 -!- TGWi has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]