00:17:45 <due> Attached leeches fucking suck..
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00:23:55 <Ashenzari> Red draconian breath won't burn trees (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2749) by Pseudonut
00:26:13 <Wensley> due: is that a pun, or a remark on the difficulty of implementation?
00:26:33 <due> Wensley: Both.
00:27:03 <Wensley> due: while you're implementing creatures, implement my platypus idea :P
00:27:11 <Wensley> they have neurotoxins!
00:27:24 <Wensley> so you'll also have to implement that.
00:28:22 <due> hm
00:28:25 <due> no :p
00:29:09 <Wensley> consider my fist shaken
00:29:56 <Wensley> is the idea that you can't move away from giant leeches now?
00:30:05 <due> no
00:30:08 <due> the idea is that you can move
00:30:10 <due> but they move with you
00:30:27 <Wensley> that's what I meant. you can't move away from them :P
00:35:12 <Wensley> perhaps any time the player moves, the leech immediately takes its movement to vacate the space the player just left?
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01:30:13 <CIA-46> 03galehar * re144bc3b962f 10/crawl-ref/source/godabil.cc: another low-level reskilling fix
02:02:12 <CIA-46> 03galehar * r6e5f0180f36b 10/crawl-ref/source/skills.cc: cosmetic fix
02:48:38 <due> That was basically how I was coding it, only they kept walking through walls.
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03:07:29 <due> hey syllogism
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03:16:59 <syllogism> hi
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05:05:22 <kilobyte> due: is there a way to use a normal layout in a vault (portal/encompass) and have several vaults placed into it in random places (as opposed to subvaults which are fixed-shape fixed-place)?
05:05:55 <kilobyte> I suspect that it's yes, no.
05:20:38 <Ashenzari> Breath targetting bugs (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2750) by OG17
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05:30:30 <due> Um
05:30:33 <due> Yes, no.
05:30:42 <Ashenzari> Purple drac breath strips effects silently (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2751) by OG17
05:38:33 <kilobyte> so the solutions are either to force subvaults into a common size, or make it a Blade
05:45:48 <Ashenzari> Self-targetted purple draconian breath has no effect (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2752) by OG17
05:47:37 <casmith789> kilobyte: as regards to blade hands on a felid, I think it's underpowered rather than overpowered. The other forms (such as ice form and spiderform) are better, as their main drawback is merging all your armour.
05:53:39 <kilobyte> hmm, a valid point
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05:58:09 <Gretell> Unstable branch on CDO updated to: 0.8.0-a0-2167-g6e5f018 (31.8)
05:58:41 <kilobyte> somehow it hasn't been updated since Oct 18 -- isn't it supposed to be in a cron job?
06:06:56 <due> mmmblade.
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07:43:44 <CIA-46> 03galehar * r0188d60bdbb1 10/crawl-ref/source/ (dat/des/branches/lair.des godabil.cc): Simplify
07:43:44 <CIA-46> 03galehar * rbc5b9112f1cf 10/crawl-ref/source/skills.cc: don't train (or reskill) past level 27
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08:23:31 <CIA-46> 03dolorous * r74656255124f 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-data.h: Add formatting fix.
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08:49:15 <dpeg> !seen Napkin
08:49:15 <Henzell> I last saw Napkin at Fri Oct 22 11:30:01 2010 UTC (1d 2h 19m 14s ago) joining the channel.
08:49:25 <Napkin> what's up?
08:49:32 <dpeg> Napkin: once you have the time, we'd cheer for a new CDO update =)
08:49:46 <Napkin> scheduled for monday :-P
08:50:09 <Napkin> will do ;)
08:50:31 <dpeg> you rock!
08:56:10 <kilobyte> is CDO supposed to update from a cronjob?
08:56:36 <kilobyte> I ran it manually today, and the version there was from Oct 18
08:56:37 <Napkin> it does, kilobyte
08:56:55 <Napkin> that's why i posted the crontab entries
08:58:29 <Napkin> crawl@ipx14623:~> crontab -l
08:58:29 <Napkin> # m h  dom mon dow   command
08:58:29 <Napkin> 15 6 * * 1,4,6	/home/services/crawl/bin/update-mingw-all-trunk.sh quiet
08:58:29 <Napkin> 45 6 * * 1	/home/services/crawl/bin/update-cdo-trunk.sh quiet
08:58:29 <Napkin> 55 5 * * *	/home/services/crawl/bin/clean-trunks.pl
08:58:32 <Napkin> ---
08:59:31 <Napkin> once week update of CDO is not enough? we could do 1,6 - monday and saturday?
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09:00:17 <Napkin> that should be ok for both, weekend- and weekday-warriors
09:00:18 <Napkin> agreed?
09:00:46 <Wensley> what about whole-week warriors?
09:00:46 <dpeg> yes!
09:00:56 <Wensley> this is an important demographic as well
09:01:06 <Wensley> also good morning
09:01:07 <Napkin> they get update on monday and saturday :-P
09:01:10 <Napkin> moin :)
09:02:11 <Napkin> done.
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09:08:34 <CIA-46> 03gafrie * rb79b31bf1f3a 10/crawl-ref/source/ (mon-abil.cc mon-abil.h monster.cc): Merged slimes split on polymorph
09:08:40 <CIA-46> 03kilobyte * r185a93a93369 10/crawl-ref/source/ (mon-abil.cc monster.cc): MONS_MERGED_SLIME_CREATURE can never happen.
09:08:51 <dpeg> kilobyte: thank you!
09:09:55 <due> hm
09:09:58 <due> I've done sky beaasts
09:10:21 <Zaba> sky beasts?
09:10:25 <due> yes
09:10:31 <kilobyte> dpeg: I investigated Dwarf, and I wonder what to do.  I initially considered making an encompass (or perhaps portal) vault, but for two reasons, I'm currently thinking about making it a single-level regular branch like Blade.
09:10:35 <kilobyte> due: go for it!
09:10:38 <due> flying electric ice beasts that flicker in and out of visibility
09:10:40 <TGWi> due: for mountains, right?
09:10:43 <TGWi> aw
09:11:07 <Zaba> due, where will they appear?
09:11:25 <kilobyte> 1. an encompass placed in Elf or D would use the Elf/D monster set, and show the host branch's name as the place
09:11:26 <due> Zaba: slightly higher than ice beasts.
09:11:51 <casmith_789> about d:4?
09:11:59 <due> D:7 or so
09:12:07 <Eronarn> due: next up: crystal beasts
09:12:09 <kilobyte> 2. currently the dungeon builder doesn't support subvaults of varying sizes randomly placed, while the regular builder does
09:12:09 <due> the staats are the same as ice beasts
09:12:28 <casmith_789> invisible monsters are much more powerful early game
09:12:31 <due> yes
09:12:34 <TGWi> casmith_789: not really
09:12:38 <due> they are only invisible for a few turns though
09:12:41 <casmith_789> TGWi: unseen horror
09:12:44 <Eronarn> and then make a cloud?
09:12:49 <due> yes
09:12:54 <Eronarn> awesome
09:13:09 <TGWi> unseen horrors are more of a midgame thing
09:13:14 <casmith_789> by electric ice beasts, you mean do electric instead of ice damage?
09:13:15 <TGWi> and you usually have bolts or clouds
09:13:24 <Eronarn> casmith_789: electric ice damage
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09:14:22 <dpeg> kilobyte: 1. would be okay for now.
09:14:57 <Wensley> I am very excited by sky beasts :D
09:15:06 <Wensley> due: how are leeches coming?
09:16:02 <due> Wensley: badly
09:16:04 <kilobyte> dpeg: er, I listed problems, not solutions
09:16:34 <Wensley> due: :\
09:17:09 <Wensley> also, we should plan some more beasts to make the I glpyh more populated, or possibly switch all current I to E
09:20:15 <dpeg> kilobyte: I see :) Then let's just take a single level portal vault.
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10:06:20 <Wensley> since TGWi brought up religious backgrounds in ##crawl, would anyone like to discuss my Beogh/hill orc idea? https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:background:religious_backgrounds#beogh
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10:15:24 <Adamo> hello ppl!
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10:21:32 <Adamo> Hello ppl.. I`ve got a question about "The base max HP gain".. Each time you gain a new level, you get 1d4 + 3 HP (for levels  2-12), 1d3 + 2 HP (for levels  13-21) or 1d2 + 1 HP (for levels  22-27). Where can I change this?
10:24:18 <TGWi> hp gain is no longer random
10:24:30 <TGWi> as for your actual question, I have no idea
10:24:47 <Adamo> really? I got this info from http://r1gm.free.fr/Crawl/crawlSS_052_experience.txt
10:24:55 <TGWi> that's two versions ago
10:25:00 <TGWi> it hasn't been random since 0.5
10:25:18 <Adamo> hmm.. I was looking at Lua files, but can`t find it
10:26:32 <Adamo> The base HP is then modified by the race factor (I know how to deal with this), but it`s the base HP which I`m interested in
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10:29:32 <dpeg> Wensley: very little time here... what is your idea?
10:30:18 <Nexos> Once upon a time, it used to be possible to record Ctrl-F search terms, which was very handy IMHO. Will/Could this feature somehow be reinstated in the future?
10:30:18 <Wensley> in short, to make all hill orcs who don't otherwise start with a god to begin as worshipers of beogh
10:30:26 <dpeg> aha
10:30:35 <dpeg> Don't thikn that's brilliant, to be honest :)
10:30:39 <Wensley> it sounds terrible, but I have a lot of justification for it on the wiki page :)
10:30:53 <dpeg> I'd much rather guarantee a B altar in O:2 or O:3.
10:31:01 <Wensley> I acknowledge that it's very radical
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10:31:40 <Wensley> I also think it's a very interesting concept, apart from all the reasons that I cite in my writeup
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10:33:00 <Wensley> on the spider's nest page there was a proposal for an arachnid race that would all begin as servitors of a new spider god... well we already *have* a racial god, if any race is going to begin as compulsory worshipers, it's got to be hill orcs :)
10:33:47 <dpeg> I don't like the arachnid race... I think the wiki page has a comment as to why.
10:34:15 <TGWi> Wensley: md and ho would be differentiated dwarves were small :O
10:34:33 <Wensley> we already have tons of small races :P
10:34:41 <TGWi> we have three
10:34:46 <Wensley> four
10:35:04 <Wensley> and anyway, there's a proposal somewhere on the wiki for more granularity in size
10:35:23 <TGWi> size isn't broken so I assume it won't be fixed
10:35:43 <dpeg> Wensley: "more granularity"? If at all, we need less.
10:35:53 <dpeg> reading stories to daugther, later
10:36:11 <TGWi> again, size is not broken
10:36:13 <Wensley> https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:size
10:36:23 <Wensley> not saying it's broken, nor that it needs changing
10:36:45 <TGWi> that page is awful, it's all changing stuff for the sake of changing stuff
10:36:53 <TGWi> tying metabolism to size? what does that accomplish
10:37:17 <Wensley> making ogres worse
10:37:20 <Wensley> nerf ogres
10:38:37 <Wensley> in any case, I feel like giving most hill orcs Beogh, along with some general Beogh improvements, would be more of a differentiation than just giving dwarves some more ev
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10:39:50 <Adamo> does anyone knows how to do this?
10:40:00 <Wensley> what are you trying to do?
10:40:52 <Adamo> I just wrote but was logged out.. that thing about base XP gain
10:41:32 <Adamo> The base max HP gain (which may be further modified depending to your race) depends on your experience level. What is the formula and how to change it?
10:41:47 <Wensley> ??hp
10:41:48 <Henzell> hp[1/2]: Fighting skill gives a bonus of skill*xl/5. The base max hp per level varies by pre-levelup xl, but is usually around 4.
10:41:52 <Wensley> ??hp[2]
10:41:52 <Henzell> hp[2/2]: Increase in max HP from XL1 to XL27: Tr 150; DD, Na, Og 137; Mf 128; grey Dr 127; Ce, DG, Gh, HO, MD, Mi 124; non-grey Dr 120; DS, Hu, Mu, Vp 111; HE, Ha, SE 94; DE, Ke 87; Ko 83; Sp 79; Fe 77
10:42:09 <Wensley> I don't know the code well enough to tell you that, sorry
10:42:24 <Wensley> you'll need to catch the eye of a real developer
10:44:05 <Wensley> just curious, what are you trying to do by changing base hp gain?
10:44:07 <Adamo> "The base max XP per level varies by pre - up xl (usually around 4)"... What is that? Is this value later modifided by a race value?
10:46:10 <Adamo> what I mean is that every time you gain a new level, you get some extra XP points. What is the formula (apart from the "race-factor" which modifies it later)?
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10:58:21 <Adamo> @<Henzell>: "fighting skill gives a bonus of skill*xl/5. The base max hp per level varies by pre-levelup xp, but is usually around 4". Where can I find it, is it hardcoded?
10:58:41 <TGWi> you asked that question twelve minutes ago
10:58:54 <TGWi> have some patience, try again when a dev is around
10:58:54 <Adamo> yeah, but it keeps logging me out
10:59:29 <Wensley> devs will see it eventually, or try back later tonight to see if more people are around
11:00:18 <Adamo> I was trying to search it on DCSS wikipedia, but info is bit outdated
11:00:30 <Wensley> yeah :P
11:00:41 <Wensley> do you have a copy of the source code?
11:01:07 <Adamo> nope
11:02:34 <Adamo> hmm.. I could modify the sourcecode (if it`s hardcoded), but I wouldn`t know how to make an executible out of it (I`m not a programmer).
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11:05:53 <dpeg> Adamo: what do you want to achieve?
11:06:00 <Zao> (pedant note, it's not "dcss wikipedia", it's "dcss wiki")
11:06:17 <Zao> (wikipedia is a site that is a wiki)
11:07:09 <Adamo> @dpeg: i wanted to know the formula for gaining base XP.. where is this (if not hardcoded)
11:07:44 <Wensley> I think he means HP, btw
11:08:27 <Adamo> (*HP, you`re right). is it modified then by a level factor and a race factor?
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11:10:21 <Adamo> every time a character gains a level, it gets some HP points.. where can I find it? I was searching in Lua files, but no effect.
11:10:38 <Eronarn> that would be in the source code; you don't need to compile it to look for the formula
11:10:57 <Wensley> HP is just the formula you saw before that is the product of your fighting skill and experience level. some races also get hp bonuses or penalties every level, and the starting background helps determine hp slightly
11:11:37 <Eronarn> Wensley: he's interested in what factor the XL component contributes to it
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11:11:55 <Eronarn> i don't know offhand how it figures out when you get 4 HP, and when you get something else
11:12:02 <Zao> Is there any particular reason why the thumbnails on http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/downloads are full-size instead of proper thumbnails?
11:12:43 <Eronarn> Zao: because it's 2010, bandwidth is irrelevant :D
11:12:59 <Wensley> pretty sure it's just "humans get <num> hp per level, some races get more or less"
11:14:20 <Adamo> That`s what I`m interested in
11:14:31 <Zao> Eronarn: It struck me as strange that a thumbnail would be incrementally loading here :)
11:14:45 <Eronarn> Wensley: ' The base max hp per level varies by pre-levelup xp, but is usually around 4"'
11:14:46 <Wensley> while we're on the topic, is there any reason why the third screenshot in the screenshot section is a screencap of "Dumbshit the Devastator"? http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/screenshots
11:14:51 <Zao> Eronarn: Bandwidth is an issue if you're mobile or metered, though.
11:14:54 <Eronarn> means that it isn't always 4, meaning there's a formula to figure it out somewhere
11:16:14 <TGWi> Wensley: that whole screenshot should be replaced, it has the screwy charset that some people have
11:16:15 <TGWi> the umlaut floor is really ugly
11:16:52 <dpeg> send in better screenshots, I guess
11:17:25 <Adamo> in previous versions, you just had 1d4 + 3 HP for a Level  2-12 (modified by a "race factor").
11:17:27 <Eronarn> http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/splash_screen.png what the hell is the thing on the left even supposed to be
11:18:01 <TGWi> Wensley: they should be unicode screenshots with default-ish settings I think
11:18:11 <TGWi> let me see if I can set that up
11:18:21 <dpeg> Adamo: instead of the random amount, these are now fixed (at the expected value).
11:19:05 <TGWi> admittedly, I like the shot with 72 bees
11:19:12 <Eronarn> http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/slime_vaults.jpg god i don't even get how anyone uses tiles
11:19:13 <Adamo> I will take a look at it in the sorce code
11:20:03 <Wensley> the wiki (I know, lolol etc) lists hp bonuses for character races in the following fashion: You gain the base max HP plus 1 on every level, plus 1 more on every even level. (this is for trolls)
11:21:25 <Wensley> not sure how recent the wiki is, obviously
11:21:48 <casmith789> (you can check by viewing history)
11:21:48 <dpeg> Adamo: you could simply fire up wizmode and try it out
11:21:59 <TGWi> I don't think anything has changed in a while, although I would be a bit suspicious of those numbers in the first place
11:22:10 <TGWi> considering I think they were around before nonrandom hp gain
11:22:15 <casmith789> dpeg: I think he wants to change them, rather than know what they are
11:22:32 <dpeg> casmith789: presumably, but he doesn't say what he wants :)
11:22:40 <Wensley> think those numbers are from march
11:22:56 <Adamo> I want to change the BASE HP value
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11:25:41 <Adamo> I wanted to change BASE HP value, not touching the race modifier (for example, 100 for human)/
11:25:57 <Wensley> look for the leveling up code, I suppose
11:26:11 <Adamo> where is it?
11:26:27 <Wensley> <-- has no idea :\
11:30:37 <dpeg> Wensley: in general, we want fewer starting gods, not more
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11:41:20 <Wensley> dpeg: I'm totally in favor of removing tso and makh and zin, I just want to keep xom and beogh
11:41:48 <Wensley> did I say somewhere that I wanted more starting gods? :P
11:42:17 <dpeg> TGWi: your comment on the size wiki page is negative (including the typoed label of your change) and misses the point.
11:42:20 <dpeg> Wensley: you do
11:42:41 <TGWi> dpeg: what's the point?
11:42:43 <Wensley> where do I say this?
11:43:01 <dpeg> Wensley: more formerly god-less starting combos to start with a god
11:43:11 <dpeg> TGWi: you have missed it!
11:43:13 <Wensley> ah, I see what you mean
11:43:26 <Wensley> I thought you were referring solely to backgrounds
11:43:36 <dpeg> no, that is only one part
11:43:50 <Wensley> in any case, I stand by me defense of a religious race
11:43:56 <Wensley> *my
11:44:43 <Wensley> in all cases where you want one of the usually-godless races *without* beogh, you can either renounce him or start a mountain dwarf as that background
11:45:04 <TGWi> dpeg: we've established this; apparently you'd rather complain about me than explain why
11:46:45 <dpeg> TGWi: I hoped you'd read the page once more :)
11:47:05 <dpeg> TGWi: (a) the prospect of size changing spells (or other effects). (b) size related effect like trampling.
11:48:04 <TGWi> (a) those can be (and currently are) handled acceptably without such changes, and changing this would have a bunch of weird consequences like spider form providing sustenance (which is undesirable)
11:48:43 <TGWi> (b) trampling uses the size system but it doesn't care whether sustenance, hp, damage etc are scaled by size
11:48:57 <TGWi> it even has its own separate page, I think
11:50:17 <dpeg> TGWi: yes, it's not urgent and possible idle, but there's nothing wrong with thinking a bit in advance.
11:50:27 <dpeg> I don't think that a comment called "hate" is going to help.
11:51:33 * dpeg feels too often like he has to teach very basic social skills.
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11:54:14 <TGWi> I disagree that the comment was 'negative' (except in an "I don't like this" sense) in the way that kilobyte on the los page, or OG17 on any page are
11:54:26 <TGWi> edit summaries are mostly irrelevant
11:55:06 <OG17> negative apparently is "I don't like this"
11:55:09 <OG17> stop haeting
11:55:13 <dpeg> +1
11:55:33 <dpeg> tone is relevant in all communication... look, I agreed to at least parts of what you say in content
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12:04:01 <Wensley> dpeg: have you read my reasons for supporting Beogh for all hill orcs, or do you oppose it on principle? :P
12:06:06 <CIA-46> 03dolorous * ra97f0230501f 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-abil.cc: Add spacing fix.
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12:15:08 <kilobyte> TGWi: note that various communities have different standards.  For example, for many many years I had been coding for a MUD where, among a large creative crew, you still had to fight claw and tooth to get any idea through
12:15:31 <Wensley> kilobyte: which mud?
12:15:51 <kilobyte> so someone trained that he has to be rude to be effective will continue to do so
12:15:55 <kilobyte> Wensley: The Two Towers
12:16:10 <Wensley> never heard of it, might check it out
12:17:46 <kilobyte> pretty nice, one of the largest when it comes to the code base, and hard core about theme while still with good playability both for explorers and (slightly less) pvpers.
12:18:31 <Wensley> I've really only played discworld mud, but that's not so much a game as an exploration simulator
12:19:14 <kilobyte> from purely the staff point (mostly invisible to players) it has an extensive bureaucracy which is both a blessing and a curse
12:19:29 <kilobyte> a blessing because of a complex multi-tiered QC system
12:20:19 <kilobyte> in Crawl, any dev can code an idea and have it in trunk with little recourse from the others -- there's at most shouting, or, theoretically, a revert war we didn't ever have
12:21:46 <kilobyte> on T2T, you had to submit formal proposals, voted on by the admins, with separate approvals from the Overlord of Theme and OL of Balance (sub-admin positions!) who had mostly a complete veto right
12:22:05 <Wensley> that's really cool
12:22:27 <Wensley> I'm looking at some of its maps right now, I'm a nerd for fantasy maps
12:23:47 <kilobyte> then anything went through multiple rounds of "PreQC", then formal QC which was split into General QC (further split into rooms, objs, mons) which dealt with code and descriptions, Theme QC (matching Tolkien's books, making sense realistically, some aesthetic stuff) and Balance QC (actual balance + code review wrt loopholes)
12:24:45 <kilobyte> the final result was that even though the bureaucracy took more work than the actual coding, everything that hit the game made sense
12:24:51 <Wensley> ...wow
12:24:58 <Wensley> that's very impressive
12:26:12 <Wensley> I know that discworld mud has creators partitioned into domains which give them authority over certain continents or specific facets of the game, but it's more for delegation of tasks than QC
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12:33:11 <Ashenzari> Xom vault blocked off (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2753) by Luterac
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12:51:49 <Zao> Aren't there lots of vaults that are unenterable without special abilities?
12:52:04 <Zao> Like the one with an Angel, those on islands of water/lava, etc.?
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12:54:32 <TGWi> zao: those aren't overflows
12:54:42 <Zao> Ah.
12:54:49 <TGWi> overflows replace temple altars, so they're expected to be accessible
12:54:50 <monky> isn't there an overflow where you have to levitate/blink
12:55:14 <TGWi> yes but that one is wrong
12:55:22 <monky> yeah it's pretty dumb
12:55:44 <Wensley> yeah, too bad for anyone who wants to worship vehumet
12:56:02 <Wensley> there's also one that requires you to destroy a statue
12:56:21 <TGWi> the inaccessible overflow one is the 2x2 square encapsulated in lava/water encapsulated in rock with a door
12:56:27 <TGWi> the rest aren't, I think
12:56:55 <Wensley> maybe there's a secret door in the statue one
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14:08:42 <dpeg> "Foo is not broken seems to become a standard counter to all kinds of changes."
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14:13:25 <TGWi> "foo is a good idea because it violates basic design sensibilities"
14:14:10 <dpeg> TGWi: what do you mean?
14:15:10 <TGWi> non-broken things should not change
14:15:51 <dpeg> Disagree. Non-broken does not mean that there's no room for improvement.
14:16:01 <dpeg> Old Ely was not broken, the new one is still better imo.
14:16:22 <TGWi> I don't know what old elyvilon did
14:16:50 <dpeg> TGWi: Grey Elves were not broken, but got removed anyway.
14:17:07 <dpeg> The list is endless, I am giving counterexamples to your way too sweeping statement.
14:17:22 <TGWi> they were broken because they encroached on high elves
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14:18:48 <dpeg> I don't have the time to teach... perhaps you will see that there's improvement beyond repairing broken stuff.
14:19:17 <TGWi> there's adding completely new stuff but that's not what you're doing
14:19:25 <TGWi> what the size page is doing*
14:19:58 <TGWi> but the scope of an argument is not a shortcoming
14:20:32 <TGWi> compare to "x is a no-brainer"
14:25:00 <dpeg> TGWi: I already gave you the bit about "non-urgent and possibly idle".
14:25:19 <dpeg> That's still a far cry from "violates basic design sensibilities".
14:31:16 <dpeg> !seen minced
14:31:17 <Henzell> I last saw minced at Fri Oct 22 03:04:43 2010 UTC (1d 16h 26m 34s ago) quitting with message Ping timeout: 245 seconds.
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14:32:38 <kilobyte> uhm... how come cheese is a vegetable?
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14:33:20 <TGWi> in that spriggans can eat it?
14:33:40 <kilobyte> a similar issue with pizza: I don't get why the toppings should depend on your race
14:33:47 <TGWi> answer: it's really moldy cheese
14:34:34 <Eronarn> cheese made from oklob milk
14:34:39 <kilobyte> TGWi: it is an animal product (ie, milk).  Vegetarians but not vegans would eat it, but it's on the other side of the fence.  I'll make it neutral.
14:34:53 <kilobyte> not sure about pizza
14:34:55 <Eronarn> kilobyte: Guess which kind of animal drinks milk?
14:34:56 <TGWi> the whole thing is mold
14:35:03 <Eronarn> hint: it is not a carnivorous one
14:35:10 <TGWi> Eronarn: hint: all mammals
14:35:57 <TGWi> re: pizza, is there still a "pizza" option?
14:36:16 <TGWi> I figure kobolds could pick off the toppings and eat those
14:36:41 <kilobyte> TGWi: there is, even though it neither meets the 300 years rule nor makes sense as currently coded
14:36:52 <TGWi> and spriggans could pick off the toppings and eat everything else
14:36:59 <TGWi> kilobyte: pretty sure pizza is older than 300 years
14:37:00 <monky> kilobyte: it made even less sense before I butchered it
14:37:24 <kilobyte> like, if you have at least one level of Herbi, you'll never find ham or chicken one
14:37:29 <dpeg> kilobyte: I tried --pizza once, but failed miserably.
14:37:43 <casmith789> lol, gone two minutes and the whole channel has changed topic to pizza
14:37:52 <kilobyte> or with 1-2 levels of Carni, no veggie or cheese(!)
14:38:03 <TGWi> "By 997 the term had appeared in Medieval Latin, and in 16th century Naples a Galette flatbread was referred to as a pizza."
14:38:11 <monky> I based my pizza code on the old pizza code, which was really messy
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14:38:35 <dpeg> galehar: Hi!
14:38:44 <TGWi> pineapple pizza is newer than that, obviously, but assuming crawl isn't set on earth, it's entirely possible pineapple exists in the same place as pizza
14:38:48 <galehar> 'night!
14:38:53 <dpeg> TGWi: the anachronism is not with the pizza item itself, but more with the pizza delivery service idea (which could be more Nethack's than Crawl's fault).
14:39:05 <TGWi> there's a... wait, what?
14:39:07 <kilobyte> galehar: hi!
14:39:10 <casmith789> nethack's fault!?!
14:39:13 <monky> pizza delivery service???
14:39:21 <dpeg> !!??!??!?!1!!?!11?!!?!
14:39:24 <monky> is that in pizza desc or something
14:39:30 <kilobyte> dpeg: that silly patch hasn't been accepted into vanilla
14:39:37 <casmith789> I mean sure, blame nethack for stuff
14:39:39 <dpeg> kilobyte: I know
14:39:39 <kilobyte> (nor anything else for ~10 years)
14:39:43 <casmith789> but for pizza that makes no sense
14:39:54 <TGWi> about pineapple pizza, though, it's not any more ridiculous than quokkas and grizzly bears in the same dungeon
14:39:56 <dpeg> Also, I always said that the abundance of food items probably stems from the fact that it's so darn easy to do and feels cool at first.
14:40:12 <monky> TGWi: underground swamps and shoals
14:40:18 <dpeg> I also lost a devteam battle to reduce on fruits, but that could be turned into an advantage with the fruit god.
14:40:24 <Eronarn> TGWi: mushroom pizza!! <3
14:40:37 <galehar> wow, the discussion is technical tonight...
14:40:49 <dpeg> galehar: we already had worse today :)
14:40:59 <dpeg> galehar: would you support axing pizzas?
14:41:00 <Eronarn> galehar: did you know that the pineapple is neither an apple nor a pine?
14:41:02 <monky> I agree with killing excess food items, or at least making them stack
14:41:12 <kilobyte> pizza is made from 1. bread 2. cheese, 3. random toppings.  Part 2 makes it good for strict carnivores.
14:41:22 <galehar> dpeg: no, I like pizza!
14:41:36 <kilobyte> at least judging from how hard it is to defend pizza from RL cats :p
14:41:39 <dpeg> I also like my pizza, I just don't like Crawl's pizza item :)
14:41:47 <TGWi> can carnivores eat bread?
14:41:51 <galehar> Eronarn: well, yes, it's some stupidity of the english language
14:41:56 <Eronarn> i can't believe this is even up for discussion tbh
14:42:00 <kilobyte> TGWi: no
14:42:02 <Eronarn> pizza doesn't fit in at all
14:42:08 <kilobyte> Eronarn: yeah
14:42:15 <Eronarn> and there's no loss for removing it except for people who will complain just because lol pizza
14:42:17 <monky> kilobyte: so move cheese into the neutral or carni section; I believe they exist and are pretty distinct
14:42:22 <TGWi> pizza isn't an anachronism but yeah it's a bit silly
14:42:29 <TGWi> cheese is neutral bro
14:42:31 <TGWi> it's just dairy
14:42:33 <kilobyte> dpeg: could you briefly tell us what was the problem the last time it was discussed?
14:42:37 <galehar> it is silly, but you know, Crawl is a game...
14:42:49 <Eronarn> galehar: games don't have to be silly
14:42:59 <Eronarn> if we want pizza in as a silly thing, fine
14:43:02 <TGWi> galehar: also it's hard to classify, which is worse
14:43:03 <galehar> no, but they have to be fun
14:43:03 <Eronarn> make xom deliver it
14:43:09 <Eronarn> silly != fun
14:43:10 <dpeg> kilobyte: devs not seen for quite some time would speak up in c-r-d to defend the pizzas :)
14:43:28 <TGWi> galehar: and regarding the english language, go have grammatical gender and excessive conjugation somewhere else
14:43:40 <galehar> also, I have italian blood, so I may be biased...
14:43:51 <dpeg> galehar: I like silly... but I like silliness somewhat more subtle or intelligent than a plain item. For example, hellephants, klowns, death cobs, all fine by me.
14:44:04 <galehar> tgw: I love english for plenty of stuff, but they know shit about food
14:44:13 <galehar> I'm french btw...
14:44:13 <TGWi> galehar: :P
14:44:18 <MadCoyote> but they have their very own muffins!!!
14:44:19 <dpeg> Parbleu!
14:44:32 <Eronarn> dpeg: death cob stalker unique
14:44:59 <galehar> well, pizza does feel like a Nethack heritage
14:45:10 <MadCoyote> let crawlers have their pizza
14:45:10 <TGWi> power gamers eat pizza
14:45:13 <galehar> I say if we remove it, let's replace it by something else
14:45:27 <MadCoyote> it's bad enough that they have to eat raw rat and cockroach
14:45:27 <monky> does it need a replacement
14:45:40 <Eronarn> galehar: why?
14:45:41 <monky> there are too many non-stacking near-identical food items
14:45:45 <dpeg> galehar: one natural idea was to distinguish food items by properties (currently only jellies have that).
14:45:48 <monky> it's really annoying
14:45:50 <dpeg> But kilobyte does not like that approach :)
14:45:54 <Eronarn> yeah, if anything we should be cutting food items
14:46:30 <dpeg> TGWi: this should be an argument to end all argument... Just to be on the safe side, let's add:
14:46:41 <TGWi> dpeg: eating pizza while hungry is a no-brainer
14:46:50 <dpeg> Nethack has pizzas! D&D has pizzas!! Tolkien ate pizzas!!!
14:47:04 <galehar> I like to have some items that don't have any gameplay rationality. Just for flavour and diversity
14:47:21 <dpeg> galehar: sure enough
14:47:28 <monky> galehar: at least let them stack
14:47:37 <dpeg> scroll of random uselessness :)
14:47:37 <galehar> I'm fine with having plenty of different food items
14:48:02 <galehar> monky: they don't generate so often that it's a problem
14:48:14 <dpeg> galehar: I really like having you in the team, but you're not a great help in my anti-pizza crusade, I have to admit :)
14:48:16 <galehar> you don't have to stash them, just eat them or leave them!
14:48:29 <monky> autopickup
14:48:40 <galehar> can be configured
14:48:48 <galehar> if it really annoys you that much
14:48:52 <dpeg> it is trivial to drop surplus food
14:48:59 <galehar> dpeg: what are arguments against pizza?
14:49:24 <dpeg> galehar: an insane amount of items that only differ by name, weight and nutrition value. In other words, fake diversity.
14:49:38 <dpeg> Most of us dislike that with monsters, and I also dislike it with food.
14:49:41 <monky> tedious to drop surplus food though, especially when you have 1 choko, 2 rambutans, 5 sultanas, 11 grapes, an orange, and an apple
14:49:59 <kilobyte> galehar: outside of silliness, we would need to pre-roll the topping and give various bonuses to various levels of carni/herbi
14:50:22 <kilobyte> otherwise, they magically change to suit you
14:50:23 <monky> and it's very nice to have snacks around for eating when near starving and casting spells
14:50:35 <dpeg> galehar: but it's nothing to spend hours on irc about :) Although more fun than getting creamed for "violating basic design sensibilities" :)
14:51:11 <galehar> well, it's good to talk about more light stuff for a change
14:51:32 <galehar> although pizza isn't really light...
14:51:47 <OG17> kilobyte, what?  You don't see the topping until you eat it
14:52:07 <CIA-46> 03kilobyte * r4fbdab7a8c9f 10/crawl-ref/source/spl-util.cc: Felids: mark Poison Weapon as useless.
14:52:09 <CIA-46> 03kilobyte * r65a283b382db 10/crawl-ref/source/ (food.cc itemprop.cc): Cheese is not a vegetable.
14:52:10 <OG17> so herbivores never find meat pizza, etc
14:53:05 <dpeg> What kilobyte points out is that pizza does have some additional code (generally a good sign), but it's of dubious value here :)
14:53:09 <kilobyte> an alternate idea: we can roll the topping fairly, but then make you remove it and lose some nutrition -- or perhaps gain a bonus
14:53:17 -!- dpeg is now known as dpizzaman
14:53:24 -!- TGWi is now known as TGWizza
14:53:27 <galehar> maybe we can make 2 basic types: meat and vegetable pizzas. the exact flavour is given on eating
14:53:40 <TGWizza> we could stop worrying about this :P
14:53:44 <OG17> why are people considering changing this
14:54:07 <OG17> getting rid of it entirely is one thing but making it more complicated for fun doesn't seem like a good direction to go in
14:54:09 <Eronarn> just remove pizzas, holy hell
14:54:11 <galehar> kilobyte: I like that :) surprise pizza!
14:54:15 <dpizzaman> OG17: I don't like pizzas in the game. And same with cheese, sausages, chocolate bars.
14:54:20 <Eronarn> they don't even fit and this is a tremendous waste of time
14:54:27 <TGWizza> sausages and cheese are fine
14:54:30 <dpizzaman> OG17: ah, I agree then.
14:54:35 <OG17> sausage would be good if that vampire thing went in
14:54:45 <Eronarn> the vampire thing is dumb
14:54:56 <monky> aren't chocolate bars nethack
14:55:01 <TGWizza> and chocolate doesn't exist, unless we're talking about nethack again :S
14:55:02 <dpizzaman> Well, I told you my main complaint: we have something like 30 food items, and they're all the same internally.
14:55:18 <dpizzaman> The chocolate bars were a jo-ke!
14:55:37 <monky> then the food items thing moved onto the wiki and sort of rotted
14:55:49 <TGWizza> ha, it rotted, ha
14:55:52 <dpizzaman> monky: yes, it is just not urgent enough
14:56:24 <kilobyte> oooh... carnivores can eat veggie stuff by reading their description and pressing 'e' :p
14:56:40 <galehar> while we're speaking about food, let's discuss something more interesting: royal jelly. I'd like to differentiate them from !restore ability.
14:56:41 <OG17> why is cheese not a vegetable if honey isn't not a vegetable
14:57:00 <monky> galehar: that discussion already happened
14:57:02 <monky> a while ago
14:57:03 <OG17> also why is cheese
14:57:14 <galehar> I propose they restore 1d3 points to 1d3 ability and give sustain ability for a while
14:57:26 <TGWizza> characters that don't eat enough fruit should get scurvy
14:57:36 <TGWizza> also, replace potion of might with spinach
14:57:38 <kilobyte> hey... spriggans can eat chunks now!
14:57:43 <monky> uh oh
14:57:57 <OG17> also why is food brown
14:57:58 <dpizzaman> galehar: read the wiki page first , please
14:58:04 <TGWizza> kilobyte: wait, what
14:58:07 <dpizzaman> galehar: it already has comments on that
14:58:41 <kilobyte> TGWizza: not by 'e', but if you go to the inventory and navigate 10000 menus, you get to eat that
14:58:50 <TGWizza> kilobyte: nice
14:59:02 <monky> can you eat them with e*
14:59:08 <monky> or does e* not exist
14:59:28 <galehar> dpizzaman: I've read the wiki
14:59:33 <kilobyte> "Sorry, you're a herbivore."
14:59:40 <dpizzaman> galehar: ah, cool
15:00:07 <TGWizza> monky: you can try to eat inedible items, at least
15:00:11 <TGWizza> like swords
15:00:13 <dpizzaman> galehar: doesn't that page have some ideas how to make the food item different?
15:00:49 <galehar> yes, but the proposals there are more radical
15:00:55 <galehar> stomach rule
15:01:01 <galehar> my proposal is simple
15:01:39 <TGWizza> dpizzaman: you can manufacture exp with reskilling combined with cross-training
15:01:44 <TGWizza> unless the penalty is gigantic
15:02:10 <galehar> TGWizza: have you tried?
15:02:15 <bhaak> crawl is missing a banana phone
15:02:21 <dpizzaman> TGWizza: no, of course not
15:02:32 <galehar> because in my tests, cross-training have no effect on reskilling (for now)
15:02:37 <TGWizza> galehar: not since then; would something prevent it?
15:02:43 <TGWizza> wait, what?
15:02:44 <TGWizza> I mean
15:02:58 <bhaak> this is clearly a design flaw. How can you have pizza in a game without a possibility to call the pizaa delivery service?
15:03:31 <galehar> I have to look why
15:03:31 <monky> ??realism of crawl[2]
15:03:31 <Henzell> realism of crawl[2/5]: Pizza and cheese that last forever.
15:03:41 <TGWizza> galehar: hold on, let me explain
15:03:45 <monky> it was obviously left by previous adventurers
15:03:48 <monky> and just lasted forever
15:03:50 <kilobyte> galehar: since the noun-verb code is yours, are actions you _currently_ can't do (like, due to being engorged) supposed to show up?
15:04:03 <TGWizza> let's say you're a kobold... raise sbl (apt 59) instead of long (apt 141)
15:04:06 <galehar> kilobyte: yes
15:04:13 <galehar> and that's intended
15:04:45 <galehar> it's better to show the action and give the player an error message explaining why he can't do it rather than just remove the action
15:05:01 <kilobyte> galehar: and what about food that is not food for your race (mummy, spriggans, felids, kobolds)?
15:05:02 <TGWizza> raise short blades to level N, then raise long blades to level N
15:05:09 <TGWizza> then reskill all your short blades to long blades
15:05:32 <TGWizza> so for the first N levels, you've basically doubled your apt
15:05:57 <TGWizza> no you haven't, you've increased it by 4
15:05:59 <galehar> kilobyte: well, that can be improved. The idea if it doesn't show up when you press 'e', the maybe the action shouldn't be displayed
15:06:17 <dpizzaman> galehar: yes, that may be best
15:06:27 <galehar> I'll look into it
15:06:42 <galehar> but I have to check the cross-training mechanism first
15:08:35 <dpizzaman> TGWizza: ok, I see your point. Yes, we don't want that. OTOH, it'd only allow xp manufacturing between cross-trained skills, right? Could you use it to produce xp to be spent on something completely different?
15:09:08 <galehar> he's right
15:09:14 <TGWizza> dpizzaman: well, since you got the first N levels at a reduced rate, yes
15:09:21 <TGWizza> you've manufactured exp which you can further reskill into anything
15:09:24 <galehar> you can spend it anywhere
15:09:30 <dpizzaman> okay, so we have to do something against it
15:09:34 <galehar> indeed
15:10:23 <TGWizza> if the penalty is 30% of exp, you couldn't spend it wherever but you could still manufacture exp with cross-training
15:10:39 <TGWizza> which can't be prevented except with a prohibitively high 50% penalty
15:11:20 <galehar> we can save the bonus XP of cross-training in a separate register and lock it to the skill
15:11:25 <dpizzaman> yes
15:11:27 <TGWizza> plain skill boosts don't do this
15:11:30 <TGWizza> no headaches
15:11:47 * dpizzaman likes the word "register".
15:12:22 <Eronarn> galehar: you can't be serious with that suggestion :|
15:12:30 <Eronarn> how are you going to convey that to players in any meaningful way
15:12:31 <galehar> why not?
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15:13:20 <dpizzaman> Would it also be enough to make sure the cross-training boost is only applied once (the first time)?
15:14:08 <TGWizza> what does that mean?
15:14:48 <galehar> ok, another idea. If the skill has been cross-trained, flag it and forbid any reskilling
15:14:51 <galehar> from it
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15:16:30 <TGWizza> that's a rather draconian countermeasure, isn't it?
15:16:45 <galehar> well... yes :(
15:17:17 <dpizzaman> TGWizza: you get the discount if xp in A in less than xp in B. We keep of track of that and next time you're in a position to use the discount on these xp levels, you just don't get it.
15:18:05 <monky> and I guess only powergamers who know that already would ever encounter it
15:18:25 <TGWizza> I just don't see when you would use reskilling
15:18:26 <galehar> well, anybody can stumble upon it
15:18:29 <dpizzaman> monky: we have to crush those abuses before they can occur.
15:18:48 <monky> or crush the cause but whatever
15:18:50 * TGWizza looks pointedly at nemelex
15:18:57 <TGWizza> but I digress :P
15:18:58 <galehar> and Eronarn has a point: what are we gonna say? "You can't forget this skill because it has been cross-trained?" :(
15:19:12 <dpizzaman> galehar: I don't think that's needed.
15:19:23 <dpizzaman> monky: ?
15:19:43 <dpizzaman> monky: sometimes I have trouble getting what you mean. This made me ignore you at least once.
15:19:57 <monky> getting rid of reskilling would get rid of potential abuse without confusing hacks
15:20:17 <dpizzaman> le sigh
15:20:49 <CIA-46> 03kilobyte * rf35f3437c0f8 10/crawl-ref/source/describe.cc: Don't show commands for food/drinks your race can't ever use.
15:21:09 <galehar> kilobyte: thanks for that :)
15:21:20 <dpizzaman> I just replied to TGWizza's and minced's comments on Eronarn's alternative proposal btw.
15:22:12 <dpizzaman> monky: this is ordinary polishing, needed for anything not quite trivial in the game. Of course, you can always use that to dismiss an idea, but how am I going to take you serious then?
15:22:31 <galehar> dpizzaman: but we need to say something to the player. Let's says we use my first solution. player use reskill and drain all the legitimate XP. We can even flag it so it cannot be cross-trained anymore. But what if the player tries to reskill from it again? What do we do then?
15:24:14 <kilobyte> galehar: that doesn't fix the bug (except for the case of spriggans and meat or ko/fe and veggies) yet
15:24:27 <kilobyte> merely hides the UI
15:25:08 <kilobyte> hrm... CMD_EAT goes through eat_food() which then has all the necessary checks
15:25:21 <kilobyte> so why the hell they don't appear?
15:25:26 <dpizzaman> galehar: one idea I had would be allowing spending each xp only once... so you can deplete your SBl 27 with two (or possibly three, I don't know) reskillings, but working up SBl afterwards would not be good (for reskilling purposes at least).
15:25:58 <dpizzaman> galehar: but that's another issue I'd leave to post-test nerfing... I'd like to see actual reskilling use before nerfing it in advance.
15:26:13 <TGWizza> well, it's an abuse
15:26:14 <dpizzaman> Also, got to go any moment. My son is supposed to sleep in this very room.
15:26:15 <TGWizza> not a balance issue
15:26:24 <dpizzaman> TGWizza: yes, which is why it can wait, imo.
15:26:35 <TGWizza> dpizzaman: I was going to say that's why it can't wait :S
15:26:39 <TGWizza> good night, though
15:27:04 <dpizzaman> TGWizza: but there are a number of potential ways how to restrict and nerf, and it's best to think about that with more information.
15:27:43 <dpizzaman> TGWizza: did you refer to my wiki posting as "trolling"?
15:28:13 <dpizzaman> I guess the "terrible and boring" bit, but it was a citation... I'm at a loss.
15:28:37 <TGWizza> the characterization of opinions as "screaming warnings" and "this is radical and we don't want it"
15:28:51 <TGWizza> struck me wrong because I wrote an entire page of feedback right up there
15:28:51 <dpizzaman> This is how it felt to me, yes.
15:29:18 <dpizzaman> and so it goes...
15:30:15 <dpizzaman> I forgot to add that of course Eronarn's system could be turned into a feasible system as well, with it's own set of advantages and drawbacks.
15:31:11 <kilobyte> galehar: aaah... CMD_EAT from inventory is not the real command, but goes directly to eat_inventory_item(), ignoring all the code in between
15:32:43 <monky> dpizzaman: regarding what you said earlier on polish, I don't know if you'll find this irrelevant and confusing, but I like to conceptually separate polishing (smoothening of gameplay and interface) and abuse fixing; stopping exp farming from reskilling is abuse fixing, and from what I see of the fixes, they require polishing such as not to appear arbitrary and clumsy
15:34:39 <dpizzaman> ~monky: there's certainly a gray area: consider when someone added labyrinths years ago, and then we made them self-changing as an abuse fix.
15:35:17 <galehar> kilobyte: we should also replace eat_inventory_item() by eat_food()
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15:35:53 <Eronarn> monky: the proposed fixes *are* arbitrary and clumsy
15:35:59 <Eronarn> we should not spend time trying to polish shit
15:36:41 <monky> right but I don't really want to upset dpeg because that tends not to get anything anywhere :(
15:36:46 <galehar> kilobyte: are you fixing it or should I?
15:38:07 <Eronarn> monky: if you just wait for a bad idea to be implemented, it will be implemented and still a bad idea and that much closer to getting into the game
15:39:03 <kilobyte> galehar: I guess you know more about the details there
15:39:19 <galehar> well ok then
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15:46:42 <galehar> about the cross-training abuse, there is also stealth
15:47:04 <galehar> this one always trains like it cross-train
15:47:26 <galehar> but it is easier to fix (remove the effect and lower the apts)
15:47:39 <Eronarn> :|
15:48:17 <galehar> I mean it's an ugly hack anyway
15:50:33 <Eronarn> reskilling + crosstraining = ugly hack
15:50:34 <monky> if mechanics require ugly hacks to prevent abuse maybe they should be rethought/removed
15:51:17 <galehar> I'm talking about fixing the stealth ugly hack
15:51:46 <Eronarn> i'm talking about how fixing that is a waste of time because it won't solve reskilling's problems
15:51:58 <galehar> you know, while I'm coding reskilling, I'm also fixing the code and making it more flexible, so in any case, I'm not wasting my time
15:52:58 <Eronarn> your time is of course your own and refactoring is fine, i'm just talking about from the perspective of getting a working ash ability
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16:02:28 <CIA-46> 03galehar * re2d7435f419b 10/crawl-ref/source/describe.cc: Do proper checks when eating from the inventory
16:12:05 <kilobyte> galehar: is not being able to reskill into a skill you have currently at 0 intentional?
16:12:17 <galehar> yes
16:12:30 <galehar> we can assume you have already trained it a bit
16:12:40 <galehar> and it avoid cluttering up the menu
16:13:05 <kilobyte> well, for example right now I wanted to be able to evoke items at all
16:13:21 <kilobyte> since for misc items Evoc 0 = auto-fail
16:13:40 <galehar> well sure, this can be discusses
16:13:49 <galehar> *d
16:14:14 <galehar> but you can train your evo with wands up to level 1 too
16:14:41 <kilobyte> @whereis
16:14:41 <Gretell> KiloByte the Nimble (L14 FeCr), a worshipper of Ashenzari, is currently in Lab after 24970 turns.
16:16:08 <galehar> cdo has been updated already?
16:16:38 <kilobyte> decks and box of beasts are the only items that work with 0 Evoc
16:17:13 <kilobyte> and ball of fixation
16:17:55 <casmith789> crystal balls of seeing/energy train evo at 0 skill don't they? I mean, it might not be wise, but still
16:25:29 <TGWizza> does ball of fixation train evoc?
16:25:35 -!- TGWizza is now known as TGWi
16:32:07 <kilobyte> fixation does, energy and seeing don't
16:32:54 <kilobyte> BTW, you can tell them apart: with Evoc 0, seeing will drain 1 int (or 0 with sustab), energy 2/3 max
16:33:09 <Eronarn> is there a strong argument against removing seeing and fixation?
16:33:50 <kilobyte> seeing is of no use at all
16:38:46 <Wensley> how many useful items use evoc besides wands and decks? staff/ball of channeling, and... what else?
16:39:17 <Wensley> I've never heard of anyone actually using the elemental summoning items, or disc of storms, or box of beasts
16:40:42 <Pseudonut> is reskilling on cdo yet?
16:41:22 <monky> looks like it
16:41:29 <kilobyte> Eronarn: the stone of earth elementals is great, both for digging and summoning
16:41:37 <kilobyte> er, Wensley
16:41:45 <kilobyte> bad typo+completion, sorry
16:41:49 <TGWi> Wensley: rods :P
16:43:03 <Wensley> ah yes, I always forget about rods... and I didn't know you could dig with that stone
16:44:13 <TGWi> is infinite digging abusable?
16:44:56 <Eronarn> not really
16:45:10 <Eronarn> infinite summons kind of is
16:45:24 <Eronarn> but you need pretty high evo and earth magic, so
16:47:29 <monky> isn't it capped or something
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16:56:46 <galehar> it is
16:56:55 <galehar> by the number of rock wall in the dungeon
16:56:59 <galehar> ;)
16:57:12 <Eronarn> galehar: last time i checked you could use it on pan walls
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16:57:21 <Eronarn> this might've changed though
16:57:37 <galehar> sure, pan is just regular rock with a different name
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17:40:57 <CIA-46> 03galehar * r776f49ca9cec 10/crawl-ref/source/ (ng-setup.cc skills.cc skills2.cc skills2.h wiz-you.cc): simplify usage of the skill_exp_needed() function
17:40:59 <galehar> kilobyte: still around?
17:53:03 <kilobyte> galehar: meow?
17:53:22 <galehar> can you prevent a commit from being pushed?
17:53:28 <galehar> force it locally?
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17:53:59 <kilobyte> it depends what do you want to do with it
17:54:31 <kilobyte> for example, you may want to store it on a local branch for later
17:54:42 <kilobyte> I'm not sure what you want to get
17:54:50 <galehar> ok, let me explain
17:55:06 <galehar> I've got a french keyboard, and some keys don't work
17:55:12 <galehar> like ^
17:55:32 <galehar> so I fix it i main.cc
17:55:43 <galehar> but it's just a hack, so I don't want to push it
17:55:59 <galehar> but I need it in my working tree
17:56:10 <galehar> or I can't set piety in debug mode :(
17:56:36 <galehar> and I don't want it to get caught in a commit -a
17:57:16 <galehar> that's why I want to commit it
17:57:20 <galehar> but not push it
17:59:04 <kilobyte> no, you can't do that... all files are either tracked or not.  You may have a local commit and always rebase it onto the top then push HEAD^:master, but that's definitely not an acceptable long-term solution.
17:59:42 <kilobyte> but, if you have that problem, then I guess other people cursed with an AZERTY keyboard suffer from it as well
18:02:33 <galehar> hey your right
18:02:53 <galehar> I'll try and fix this damn layout
18:03:05 <galehar> ok, bedtime
18:03:10 <galehar> see you
18:03:14 <kilobyte> bye!
18:04:23 -!- galehar has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.11/20101012113537]]
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18:15:17 <Wensley> it would be nice if there were an alternate option for compiling with support for different keyboard layouts
18:22:39 <Wensley> would that be difficult? it would also be a first step towards making crawl available in different languages
18:22:39 <kilobyte> well, if you want to just remap the keyboard, you can do that without recompiling anything
18:22:41 <Wensley> support for different keyboards would allow for having a default mapping that makes sense, like say using vi keys on a dvorak wouldn't make sense, which would help new players who have no idea what keys they might be missing or what the defaults even are
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18:38:15 <CIA-46> 03kilobyte * r4e60484da730 10/crawl-ref/source/player.cc: Fix clarity being ignored in some cases when it's supposed to be heeded.
18:51:22 <st_> I've just converted to Ashenzari, 2000 turns in the abyss to get reskilling and 100 turns until I can reskill again after using it
18:52:36 <Wensley> there are plans to disable exploration piety gain in the abyss and pan
18:52:41 <kilobyte> 2000 turns of non-stop exploration
18:52:45 <kilobyte> Wensley: no, why?
18:52:57 <Eronarn> surprise, god with almost no use for piety has a lot of spare piety to go around
18:53:05 <Wensley> because it's totally scummable, I believe was the argument
18:53:26 <kilobyte> ...
18:53:27 <Eronarn> Wensley: as opposed to killing everything in the abyss/pan?
18:53:32 <Eronarn> or saccing everything in them?
18:54:05 <Wensley> arguing that there are precedents for scumming isn't an argument against preventing future scumming
18:54:07 <MarvinPA> ash has plenty of use for piety, until the scrying exploit is fixed :P
18:54:24 <kilobyte> there's no god that doesn't give you piety in the Abyss
18:54:45 <kilobyte> Fedhas gives little, but that's mostly because it's mostly demons
18:54:46 <Wensley> wonder how lugnou feels about that
18:54:55 <Wensley> rather, lucy
18:55:23 <kilobyte> sorry, demons+undead
18:55:35 <kilobyte> Lugonu likes you kill undead, so...
18:56:25 <Wensley> but lugonu hates other gods, from an in-universe standpoint I don't think she'd appreciate people farming her domain to curry favor with them
18:57:30 <Gretell> Unstable branch on CDO updated to: 0.8.0-a0-2179-g4e60484 (31.8)
18:57:43 <due> morn
18:57:52 <Wensley> hey due
18:59:12 <Mu_> duey
19:07:52 <CIA-46> 03kilobyte * r52d096825168 10/crawl-ref/source/dungeon.cc: Don't place pressure plates on '^' in vaults.
19:14:00 <Wensley> ??pressure plate
19:14:00 <Henzell> I don't have a page labeled pressure_plate in my learndb.
19:14:04 <Wensley> what do they do?
19:14:29 <monky> lua traps?
19:15:05 <Eronarn> yep
19:15:12 <monky> I should make some trap vaults
19:15:17 <due> Not finished yet.
19:15:18 <Eronarn> monky: dwarf fortress!!
19:15:21 <Wensley> so vault designers can design custom traps?
19:15:32 <monky> I want to make ball lightning and iood traps
19:15:49 <Wensley> in an entrance vault
19:16:52 <Eronarn> monky: boulder like in indiana jones, but it's an iood
19:16:52 <Wensley> "Xom says: A new plaything!" "The orb of destruction hits you!" "You die..." "Xom thinks this is hilarious!"
19:18:12 <Eronarn> it'd be kinda cool to have a vault where there were orbs of destruction just milling around aimlessly
19:18:24 <Eronarn> and a randart on top of a pressure plate
19:18:28 <due> . . .
19:18:44 <kilobyte> apportation or flight?
19:19:05 <Wensley> are pressure plates magical or mechanical?
19:19:09 <Wensley> both?!
19:19:10 <due> Mechanical.
19:19:12 <Eronarn> kilobyte: you know, that's a good point, there should be a magical version of a pressure plate
19:19:25 <Wensley> or just a flag to toggle them
19:19:27 <due> You do realise that it's not currently possible to cast specific spells via Lua, right?
19:19:48 <Wensley> clearly not, but I'm sure you'll have it implemented soon
19:19:52 <monky> is it possible to generate ioods/ball lightnings and give a target though
19:19:53 * Wensley waves a due flag
19:19:53 <kilobyte> cast: no.  Duplicate their effects: often.
19:20:12 <due> I wonder how difficult it would be to extend my cast interface... hm.
19:20:16 <Eronarn> i don't want ot start delving into the crawl code until some time in 2011 anyways
19:20:32 <kilobyte> generating ioods may be tricky as there's 4578993275 parameters you need to set, but tricky != impossible
19:36:55 <Mu_> i just pulled and rebuilt and crawl crashes when i try to start a fight in the arena
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19:44:22 <CIA-46> 03kilobyte * r67a31c0412f1 10/crawl-ref/source/view.cc: Don't do exploration on the arena.
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19:48:46 <minced> I just uploaded a new Nome racial patch if anyone's interested.
19:48:55 <minced> I think the race is much less overpowered with the changes.
19:50:43 <Wensley> minced: what's it include?
19:51:21 <minced> Wensley: no movement through permarock,
19:51:29 <minced> a modification of your earth attunement idea
19:51:40 <minced> and several decreased aptitudes
19:52:05 <Wensley> sounds good, I'll try it out right now.
19:52:09 <minced> Now you're slowed by 20% for like 20 turns (but still get +5-11 AC) after leaving a rock wall.
19:52:17 <Wensley> but first you'll have to tell me how to apply a patch :P
19:52:20 <minced> oh!
19:52:26 <minced> Do you have the source code checked out?
19:52:28 <Wensley> I have the source
19:52:30 <Wensley> yep
19:52:31 <minced> ok, good
19:53:09 <minced> put the patch in the source directory,
19:53:21 <minced> then use git apply --check fix_empty_poster.patch to make sure patch will work
19:53:42 <minced> then run  git am --signoff
19:53:49 <minced> (looking at http://ariejan.net/2009/10/26/how-to-create-and-apply-a-patch-with-git/)
19:53:56 <Wensley> haha, thanks :)
19:54:03 <Wensley> is the patch available at the same link as last time?
19:54:33 * Wensley bookmarks that link
19:54:35 <minced> yes, it's a second file attached with a name like "same great taste, less overpowered" or something.
20:00:45 <Ashenzari> When switching from tiles to console, then back all unseen becomes unexplored. (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2754) by JamezQ
20:05:17 <Wensley> gah, I hate compiling... I'm so spoiled by JIT
20:05:33 <minced> How long does it take you to compile Crawl?
20:05:45 <Wensley> I'll time it
20:06:07 <minced> my machine is a netbook. It unfortunately takes around 25 min to compile the game.
20:06:21 <Wensley> mine is too
20:07:06 <Wensley> which is bad... my coding style is to make small changes, compile it and see if it works, then repeat
20:07:21 <Wensley> dammit java! dammit R! why must you be so convenient
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20:08:43 <minced> Wensley: you don't have to recompile much if you touch .cc files - it's the .h files that are trouble.
20:09:25 <minced> I think linking is the reason: if you just change a .cc file, external files can still call the included functions in the same way.
20:09:36 <Wensley> yeah, I'm so bad at C, I want to get better before I start contributing to crawl
20:10:11 <minced> TBH you don't need great c++ for Crawl. Most additions involve emulating existing code.
20:10:20 <minced> When I added earth attunement, I used the glow routines as a guide.
20:10:52 <minced> and I modelled Nome swimming after the merfolk routines and statue form routines.
20:13:05 <Wensley> I'm afraid of breaking something... pointers are anathema to me
20:13:55 <Wensley> going on ten minutes, we're at initfile.o
20:15:38 <minced> I'm at mon-util, so I'm ahead of you
20:16:17 <minced> I pulled the latest from the source and re-added my Nome changes to make sure the patch is compatible with current Crawl trunk
20:23:01 <due> Okay, ice beasts are rarity 7 in the main dungeon.
20:23:11 <due> Actually, I'm going to add sky beasts at the same level.
20:25:12 <minced> due: sky beasts?
20:25:23 <due> Yes, sky beasts.
20:25:39 <minced> are they made of poofy clouds?
20:26:10 <Eronarn> minced: the answer may shock you.
20:26:39 <minced> Are you adding a patch, or are you on the dev team and therefore adding to trunk?
20:26:47 <due> minced: Erm, I'm on the dev team.
20:26:53 <minced> ok
20:27:11 <due> D:5 sky beast :D
20:27:52 <Wensley> due: I really like the idea of flickering invisible creatures
20:28:42 <due> Thank you, so do I.
20:29:17 <Eronarn> the original proposal with it running away was awful
20:29:21 <Eronarn> glad something better came out of it
20:29:32 <due> Yeah, I dumped that.
20:29:35 <due> Spirits already do that and it's annoiying.
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20:37:59 <minced> wensley: did your compilation finish?
20:38:04 <Wensley> yup
20:38:12 <Wensley> still gotta apply the patch, though
20:38:25 <Wensley> does that require recompilation?
20:38:34 <minced> ... uh, yes
20:38:35 <minced> =(
20:38:37 <minced> sorry
20:38:38 <Wensley> ah well
20:38:40 <Wensley> no prob
20:38:53 <due> Hahaha that'ss why you apply the patch first.
20:39:36 <Wensley> I did a git apply --check beforehand and got errors, I figured I had to recompile to get it to work
20:39:40 <Wensley> but
20:39:44 <Wensley> in retrospect
20:39:51 <Wensley> maybe I should have tried anyway
20:40:01 <minced> try it again and tell me what errors you get
20:40:27 <Wensley> still giving me errors, could that be because I renamed it from 0001-nome-patch.-Same-great-taste-less-overpowered.patch to nome.patch?
20:40:43 <minced> probably not]
20:40:49 <minced> what errors?
20:41:18 <Wensley> $ git apply --check nome.patch
20:41:20 <Wensley> error: patch failed: crawl-ref/source/player.cc:4300
20:41:22 <Wensley> error: crawl-ref/source/player.cc: patch does not apply
20:41:24 <Wensley> error: patch failed: crawl-ref/source/species.cc:319
20:41:25 <Wensley> error: crawl-ref/source/species.cc: patch does not apply
20:41:46 <due> gotta love patch errors
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20:42:13 <monky> did you pull too much
20:42:21 <monky> or not pull enough
20:42:25 <Wensley> I just did a git pull, I only have the master branch
20:42:28 <CIA-46> 03due * rfe51cf0a9d7b 10/crawl-ref/source/ (dat/descript/monsters.txt mon-abil.cc mon-data.h mon-pick.cc): New monster: sky beasts. Electric/air versions of ice beasts.
20:42:37 <monky> you may have pulled too much
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20:42:45 <monky> I dunno how to git though
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20:44:39 <minced> I'm trying to see what's wrong.
20:45:30 <Wensley> m1nced: I have only ever pulled twice, I have the most recent version (sans sky beasts), and the master branch only
20:45:39 <Wensley> on windows, using msysgit
20:46:45 <minced> oh crap... I merged master's changes into my Nome branch, and now my changes are not the latest six commits
20:47:02 <minced> that means it will be very difficult for me to submit a new patch. =(
20:47:07 <minced> Crap...
20:47:17 <minced> I don't really know what to do now.
20:47:37 <Wensley> hrm :\
20:48:54 <minced> so now I need to soft reset all commits by Matthew Ince and re-apply them as a single change.
20:49:41 <minced> does anyone know how to do that?
20:50:47 <Wensley> what's the importance of the latest six commits? that can't be the extent of the git history
20:52:24 <Wensley> I'm still not sure what the problem is, but there's got to be some sort of rollback function
20:52:51 <minced> yeah, I'm asking on #git and checking a tutorial now
20:53:00 <minced> the latest six commits *were* the extent of my changes.
20:56:56 <minced> (reading git voodoo in preparation for submitting new patch)
20:57:26 <minced> actually... is there any way to diff *branches*?
21:03:35 <minced> OK, git rebase was what I needed
21:03:43 <minced> now I'm getting the same errors as you, Wensley.
21:03:52 <minced> Let's see if I can fix them.
21:06:08 <Ashenzari> Spriggan Assassin Tile (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2755) by psyshvl
21:06:08 <minced> due: I just used git rebase. What happens to my changes in cases where "the patch failed?"
21:21:38 <minced> ?
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21:45:53 <minced> Hey wensley, I compiled and have nomes working even after the rebase failed.
21:45:57 <minced> Could you try compiling?
21:46:11 <Wensley> is the new patch up?
21:47:08 <Wensley> or perhaps you just replaced the prior patch with the fixed version?
21:48:11 <minced> try compiling with the old version.
21:48:32 <minced> grep the repository for "<<<<<" and see if you get any conflict markers.
21:49:18 <Wensley> compile, then grep?
21:49:22 <minced> grep first
21:49:28 <minced> if you have conflicts I need to know where they are
21:49:47 <Wensley> shall I grep the entire repository or just your patch?
21:49:56 <minced> conflict marker = 7 <s =s or >s in a row
21:50:00 <minced> whole thing
21:50:28 <minced> oh wait.. can you use grep in windows?
21:50:34 <Wensley> you can in msysgit
21:50:52 <Wensley> just... let me refamiliarize myself with it, I'm barely better than a linux noob
21:50:58 <minced> it's ok
21:51:21 <Wensley> can I give it a directory rather than a file?
21:51:36 <Wensley> also make it recursive
21:51:53 <minced> grep -r "<<<<<<<" * will work
21:53:48 <Wensley> $ grep -r "<<<<<<<" *
21:53:50 <Wensley> Binary file crawl-ref/source/contrib/sdl/test/sample.bmp matches
21:53:52 <Wensley> Binary file crawl-ref/source/crawl.exe matches
21:53:54 <Wensley> crawl-ref/source/dbg-asrt.cc:        fprintf(file, "<<<<<<<<<<<\n");
21:53:56 <Wensley> crawl-ref/source/dbg-asrt.cc:    fprintf(file, "<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<\n");
21:53:57 <Wensley> crawl-ref/source/dbg-asrt.cc:        fprintf(file, "<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<\n");
21:53:59 <Wensley> crawl-ref/source/dbg-asrt.cc:    fprintf(file, "<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<\n");
21:54:00 <Wensley> crawl-ref/source/dbg-asrt.cc:    fprintf(file, "<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<\n");
21:54:02 <Wensley> Binary file crawl-ref/source/dbg-asrt.o matches
21:54:03 <Wensley> crawl-ref/source/dbg-util.cc:    fprintf(stderr, "<<<<<<<<<\n");
21:54:05 <Wensley> Binary file crawl-ref/source/dbg-util.o matches
21:54:06 <Wensley> does this mean I need to rebase as well?
21:54:08 <Wensley> <-- is also a git noob!
21:54:10 <minced> no
21:54:29 <minced> just type "make wizard", I think the patch works and the parts that didn't work were whitespace or something.
21:55:58 <Wensley> ah, should I have run git apply without the --check beforehand to actually apply the patch and ignore the error messages, or did it apply beforehand anyway?
22:00:38 <minced> it didn't
22:00:46 <minced> the git am command is what applies it
22:00:53 <due> It won't have applied
22:02:02 <Wensley> ah, I see, so if I use am I can undo the patch later?
22:03:29 <minced> yes, with git reset --HARD master HEAD~6 or something
22:04:04 <Eronarn> that syntax makes me want to cry
22:04:59 <minced> ... I'm a git newb myself, and the syntax seems really annoying
22:06:26 <Wensley> I'm still a little vague on the differences between patches and branches. are patches just a way to circumvent having to push to the main repository?
22:09:42 <minced> yes, I think so
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22:09:58 <minced> idea is, you make a special branch, make changes in that branch, then smush them into a patch
22:10:14 <minced> then someone else gets the patch and unsmushes it in a special branch of their own
22:10:52 <minced> oh... should have told you to use git checkout nome before applying the patch
22:10:56 <minced> sorry
22:11:31 <Ashenzari> new evokables interface (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2756) by st
22:16:43 <Wensley> :P
22:16:49 <Wensley> good to know regardless, we're all new at this
22:16:59 <Wensley> I started the git am about ten minutes ago, it's still hanging
22:17:14 <Wensley> should I abort?
22:17:37 <minced> yes
22:19:50 <Wensley> shall I rebase before trying to checkout the branch?
22:20:15 <Wensley> my command line header has changed from (master) to (master|AM/REBASE)
22:20:53 <minced> what does git log report?
22:21:03 <minced> (i.e. how many of the latest commits are Nome-related?)
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22:22:34 <Wensley> the latest log entry was kilobyte's "don't do exploration on arena"
22:22:39 <Wensley> so I'm guessing things are fine
22:24:37 <Wensley> "git checkout nome" does nothing, can't find any file
22:24:46 <minced> it just switches branches.
22:25:07 <Wensley> oh, you meant I need to create a new branch of my own
22:26:25 <Wensley> ah, there we go
22:26:29 <Wensley> am successful
22:26:33 <Wensley> compiling
22:28:15 <Wensley> ah wait, no, I spoke too soon
22:28:40 <minced> now that you're in a branch, reapply the patch in the branch.
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22:29:19 <Wensley> I created the branch, switched to the branched, did git apply --check, and then did git am --signoff, and got this:
22:29:30 <Wensley> $ git am --signoff
22:29:32 <Wensley> cat: /c/crawl/source/crawl-ref/.git/rebase-apply/next: No such file or directory
22:29:34 <Wensley> cat: /c/crawl/source/crawl-ref/.git/rebase-apply/utf8: No such file or directory
22:29:35 <Wensley> cat: /c/crawl/source/crawl-ref/.git/rebase-apply/keep: No such file or directory
22:29:37 <Wensley> cat: /c/crawl/source/crawl-ref/.git/rebase-apply/keepcr: No such file or directory
22:29:39 <Wensley> cat: /c/crawl/source/crawl-ref/.git/rebase-apply/scissors: No such file or directory
22:29:41 <Wensley> cat: /c/crawl/source/crawl-ref/.git/rebase-apply/no_inbody_headers: No such file or directory
22:29:43 <Wensley> cat: /c/crawl/source/crawl-ref/.git/rebase-apply/quiet: No such file or directory
22:29:44 <Wensley> cat: /c/crawl/source/crawl-ref/.git/rebase-apply/next: No such file or directory
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22:29:46 <Wensley> C:\msysgit/libexec/git-core/git-am: line 558: test: : integer expression expected
22:29:48 <Wensley> C:\msysgit/libexec/git-core/git-am: line 565: test: : integer expression expected
22:29:58 <minced> git am --signoff nomes.updated.patch
22:30:09 <minced> (or whatever yours is named)
22:30:20 <due> Wensley: Pastebin, not paste-in-irc :p
22:30:21 <minced> hmmm maybe Windows source is different =(
22:30:42 <minced> I was able to apply the patch inside a branch without trouble.
22:30:51 <minced> (except for whitespace errors, bah who cares)
22:31:06 <due> Where's the patch?
22:31:12 <due> How about I apply it and push it to a remote branch on sf?
22:31:48 <minced> ok, great.
22:31:56 <minced> Third file attached at https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2744
22:32:01 <minced> (nomes.updated.patch)
22:32:20 <minced> wensley, I just generated a new patch that seems to work when I try it (third patch at same page)
22:32:35 <minced> due: sure
22:36:23 <due> Hopefully I didn't fuck that up
22:36:33 <due> Okay, done and pushed.
22:39:30 <minced> great!
22:39:52 <minced> ok Wensley, you should be able to get the changes via the following:
22:39:56 <minced> git checkout master
22:40:06 <minced> git branch -D nome (or whatever you named your branch)
22:40:09 <minced> git pull .
22:40:23 <minced> git branch (will list all branches)
22:40:29 <due> git checkout -b nomes origin/nomes <3
22:40:35 <minced> ok great
22:40:44 <minced> thanks
22:41:23 <minced> I've been playtesting the nomes on my own. Right now, I think they're still overpowered. I may have to remove the HP boost.
22:44:10 <Wensley> following minced's commands then due's command gives this: fatal: git checkout: updating paths is incompatible with switching branches. Did you intend to checkout 'origin/nomes' which can not be resolved as commit?
22:45:03 <Wensley> man, I feel so incompetent tonight
22:45:11 <due> It's okay, we don't mind.
22:45:11 <minced> due meant for his command to be performed instead of mine
22:45:18 <due> It makes us feel superior.
22:45:24 * Wensley bows
22:45:26 <due> Oh
22:45:30 <due> Nuke the <3 at the end of the line
22:45:34 <due> That's not part of the command.
22:45:37 <Wensley> well I did that, obviously :P
22:45:54 <Wensley> (and then when it didn't work the first two times, I included it, incredulously)
22:46:07 <minced> if it's OK, due, I updated the Nome wiki page with the command you specified and credited you for adding the patch to the main repository.
22:46:39 <minced> try git branch -D nomes and then repeat Due's command, maybe?
22:47:12 <Wensley> same error
22:47:22 <Wensley> hold on
22:47:23 <minced> OK, I get the same error as wensley when I try.
22:47:45 <Wensley> okay, I'm retarded, I forgot to pull
22:48:34 <Wensley> everything seems to be going well
22:48:49 <minced> I still can't get it to work =(
22:49:01 <Wensley> now compiling from within the source directory with the nomes branch active will make nomes available, correct? no explicit patch application to specify?
22:49:06 <minced> yes
22:49:08 <minced> no patch needed
22:49:35 <Wensley> compiling now, we'll see in half an hour
22:49:40 <Wensley> (at most)
22:50:57 <minced> ok, works for me now! I forgot to pull too
22:51:01 <minced> yay!
22:56:27 <due> lol
22:56:38 <due> What do you call idiots trying to use git?
22:56:38 <due> Gits!
22:59:00 <Wensley> !Linus Torvalds has quipped about the name "git", which is British English slang for a stupid or unpleasant person: "I'm an egotistical [sic] bastard, and I name all my projects after myself. First Linux, now git."
23:00:58 <minced> lol
23:01:34 <minced> So far, in playtesting, merging with rock walls is ridiculously good until you meet an enemy with high damage output. Then it kills you.
23:02:23 <Eronarn> enemies can damage you inside walls?
23:02:29 <minced> yes.
23:02:42 <Eronarn> that's pretty counterintuitive, given how rock worms work currently
23:02:59 <minced> you get around 5 extra AC in early game when you wall-merge, but vs a centaur or ogre that's not much.
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23:12:42 <sorear> minced: how does wall merging make you more vulnerable?
23:12:51 <minced> 20% slowing of all actions.
23:13:12 <minced> the slowing continues for around 10 turns after you leave a wall
23:13:19 <minced> as does the extra AC
23:14:06 <minced> (and a +3 unarmed boost)
23:14:33 <minced> I think in late game, wall merging will be a very bad idea when encountering nasty enemies, even with 30% extra HP
23:14:52 <minced> so maybe nomes just have an easy early game and a hard late game.
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23:21:51 <Wensley> compiling done, nome begun
23:21:56 <Wensley> oh wow, minced, this is really weird
23:22:09 <Wensley> I got an entrance vault that's a spiral of rock and translucent walls
23:22:16 <Wensley> I didn't even notice I was moving through rock at first
23:22:29 <Wensley> not weird in a bad way, though
23:22:37 <Wensley> just somewhat disorienting
23:23:13 <Wensley> how long does attunement take to dissipate?
23:24:45 <Wensley> minced: one thing to consider is that any corner in a square room can be used to easily create a chokepoint
23:28:03 <Wensley> but otherwise any wall will always expose you to three enemies, potentially, so there's a bit of a tradeoff
23:28:20 <Wensley> having non-rockworm-like behavior is essential, even if unituitive
23:28:29 <Wensley> honestly I think this is pretty fun
23:28:54 <Wensley> hm, it makes pillar dancing very easy
23:29:25 <Wensley> just fight one square from the corner, then if you get low on anything move diagonally away and enemies won't round the corner to pursue you
23:29:58 <minced> wensley: attunement takes around ten turns per point - entering a rock wall requires one point of attunement
23:30:09 <Wensley> no, I'm already in the wall
23:30:14 <minced> wensley: I discovered that trick too
23:30:37 <minced> maybe moving in rock walls should create noise.
23:31:13 <Eronarn> that sounds unfun
23:31:15 <Wensley> yes, shouting once causes enemies to appear adjacent to you immediately after you do that trick
23:31:30 <Wensley> noise in a small radius would be great
23:31:58 <TGWi> I was just thinking that stealth is too viable
23:32:46 <TGWi> are nomes in master or is this why wensley was trying to figure git out
23:33:12 <Wensley> I have figured git out, they are not in master by any stretch of the imagination
23:33:34 <TGWi> I hear that's a good way to get people to test things
23:33:45 <minced> they're in the "nomes" branch
23:35:28 <Wensley> whoa, what a weird sensation... being attacked from two sides of a wall at once
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23:37:04 <Wensley> minced: even though running away through walls isn't always a viable tactic, or even often a viable tactic, I'd still reduce their hp regardless. who are they comparable to now?
23:38:14 <minced> spriggans outside of walls
23:38:20 <minced> not sure about inside
23:38:38 <minced> probably humans
23:39:02 <minced> (30% HP boost inside of walls)
23:40:05 <Wensley> I feel like I have a lot of hp
23:40:37 <minced> yeah, the HP boost probably needs to be 10% per point of earth attunement.
23:40:47 <minced> (30% cap)
23:46:24 <Wensley> not sure they even need an hp boost, I get the feeling this race has a lot more chances to choose their battles than most races
23:48:02 <Wensley> an interesting idea could be to give them earth magic power bonus per point of stonetunement, although it is a quite specific bonus
23:50:51 <minced> I was thinking about an earth power boost.
23:51:00 <minced> I think you might be right that the HP boost is unnecessary.
23:51:19 <Wensley> in any case, it would make things harder, which I think is better
23:54:00 <Wensley> (you are free to disagree)
23:57:02 <minced> I also gave a +3 unarmed bonus for any amount of attunement ("stony fists")
23:57:15 <Wensley> I like that
23:57:36 <Wensley> perhaps ranged weapons should be restricted while inside walls
23:57:40 <minced> Yeah, it's a weak bonus, especially with slowing considered, but it makes unarmed viable in early game.
23:58:13 <minced> Wensley: if ranged weapons were restricted, what about conjurations? Would they be restricted too?
23:58:54 <Wensley> it's not necessary, just from a flavor perspective it seems weird that tension-powered devices (bows, crossbows) would work in stone
23:59:08 <Wensley> unarmed could probably stand to be +1, maybe reduce fire from +1 to 0 (unless you have a reason for fire to be that way)