00:01:23 -!- valrus_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:05:55 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:43:26 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:53:43 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 01:35:52 m1nced: https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:god:ashenzari#ashenzari_revamp_eronarn 01:43:09 -!- Pseudonut has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:10:08 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:19:10 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 02:22:58 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 02:23:17 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 02:23:30 morning 02:23:38 kilobyte: around? 02:23:46 !seen kilobyte 02:23:47 I last saw kilobyte at Fri Oct 22 00:18:26 2010 UTC (7h 5m 20s ago) joining the channel. 02:25:18 !tell kilobyte I had an idea for implementing Ash reskilling. So I'll try to do it myself if you don't mind. 02:25:18 galehar: OK, I'll let kilobyte know. 02:29:34 -!- kilobyte has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:30:24 -!- kilobyte has joined ##crawl-dev 02:45:07 -!- Wensley has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:50:02 -!- monky has quit [Quit: hello] 02:53:39 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 02:58:07 Eronarn: reading your proposal right now 02:58:14 (ash related) 02:58:57 "You at last comprehend the terrifying secrets of Shields" 03:04:35 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 03:05:33 -!- dpeg_ has joined ##crawl-dev 03:05:39 !seen monky 03:05:39 I last saw monky at Fri Oct 22 07:50:02 2010 UTC (15m 37s ago) quitting with message Quit: hello. 03:06:38 dpeg_: I tried to enforce the 300 year rule on somebody wanting to add a Wizard of Oz race, but they brought up Nikola. 03:06:58 ??300 year rule 03:06:58 I don't have a page labeled 300_year_rule in my learndb. 03:07:44 cacodemons are from the computer game DOOM, as far as I know 03:07:52 they should also probably be reevaluated 03:09:05 cacodemons have nothing but the name in common with doom's tomatoes 03:09:24 and 'cacodemon' is used as a name in some medieval texts 03:09:55 right, it was the least serious example I could muster :P 03:10:01 in any event, this is a dpeg's rule on additions, and cacodemons have been in Crawl for 5+ years before dpeg joined 03:10:09 wights are from tolkien, I recall 03:10:18 not sure about balrugs 03:10:47 what dpeg really hates is anything that can be traced to D&D 03:11:24 pretty sure D&D popularized cacodemons, actually :P 03:11:32 just like it popularized a lot of obscure mythology 03:11:45 -!- Pseudonut has joined ##crawl-dev 03:12:48 dpeg: eronarn made an interesting proposal on the ashenzari page 03:12:54 also nomes are broken, etc. etc. 03:14:23 back 03:15:03 sorear: names can be changed 03:15:13 I am not sure if minced's species can be made balanced, though. 03:15:29 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 03:17:03 dpeg: I think some of the nome ideas could be salvaged, though 03:17:05 oh dammit 03:17:26 Wensley: what is the Ash proposal? 03:17:44 eronarn proposed a redesign 03:17:55 there was a discussion earlier this morning between him and minced 03:18:23 his proposal is more about knowledge in general than about divinations, and is more strict with curses 03:18:25 Wensley: I don't think we want a full Ash redesign. 03:18:54 right, but I'd be remiss if I didn't say that I think ash still needs a lot of thought 03:19:29 This is a triviality. 03:19:31 We are thinking. 03:19:40 let us think then 03:19:56 I haven't had a chance to write up my experience with her yet, but I don't feel like she currently captures the spirit of divinations well 03:21:00 Divinations in what sense? The spell school? 03:21:17 yes 03:21:40 After a death, felids can land on enemies (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2745) by GameKnut 03:22:03 Div has been used for spamming detect traps, items (less so) and monsters. Perhaps also for mapping. Rarely for identify. All of these are incorporated in Ash. 03:23:13 It was a lame school and we try to make the god more interesting than the school. 03:23:19 this is what I'm having a hard time elaborating, because I don't have much firsthand experience with the divinations school beyond the rod with the divinations spells that has been retained through to the current version. 03:23:21 Being passive will stay, of course. 03:23:45 it just seems as though much of the knowledge that is gained through ashenzari is impotent 03:24:02 rather: 03:24:28 1) detecting traps is still powerful, because you only care where traps are when you're about to step in them 03:25:19 2) detecting enemies is only powerful when you're in the middle of combat and you see enemies are moving towards you, enabling you to draw your current combat away 03:26:44 I don't understand 1). For 2), we plan to not just tell the player "here's a monster", but also whether it's a weak or a dangerous monster. 03:26:56 3) detecting items is not useful, because you are already near enough the item that it is within your omniscient LOS, and in the future this won't even detect items in secret rooms 03:26:56 continued: 03:27:14 go on 03:28:22 For 2) we're discussing how to distinguish items. Could be between useless/other or very good (including emergency)/other. 03:28:38 In any case, item detection is less crucial than monster detection, it could also be dispensed with. 03:29:26 make that "for 3)" 03:29:54 Identify is already very good, just not implemented ideally. This will be fixed. 03:30:30 the detect items spell was too powerful because it allowed players to *focus* their exploration to only the parts of the dungeon with potentially good items. with detect monsters, they could then do that with the least amount of combat. conversely, if gaining xp was their goal, they could *focus* their exploration to only the parts of the dungeon with lots of monsters. as I see it, the most... 03:30:32 ...powerful parts of the broken divinations spells (detect items and monsters) were powerful because of this focusing effect. ash's reduced range of detection makes such focusing impossible, and in any case her piety-for-exploration mechanic makes it counter-productive. 03:31:11 These aspects were also what made Div a broken school. 03:31:33 The spells were used strategically, not tactically. 03:31:44 I was under the impression they were broken because they encouraged tedious play 03:31:59 I think these are related. 03:32:14 I actually never heard of anyone using detect items spell 03:32:14 but I don't think that playing strategically must necessarily be tedious 03:32:22 elliptic: Hi! Got my message? 03:33:01 Wensley: the question is whether we want players to scan the X map all the time. I am sceptical about that. 03:33:02 yeah 03:33:56 dpeg: I agree that this is undesirable 03:33:58 elliptic: I guess DItems was similarly unused with Detect/Remove Curse and Identify spells. 03:34:32 elliptic: what did you use divinations spells for? 03:35:01 Wensley: So th phrase it the other way around: can we short-range knowledge of opponents be tactically useful? Sure, I'd say. 03:35:45 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 03:35:52 yeah, the div spells that were used were detect creatures (which was really really good), detect traps (which wasn't a big deal but did trivialize traps), magic mapping, and forescry 03:36:56 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 03:37:12 dpeg: I can confirm that it is useful, there were cases where it saved me from being sandwiched in corridors by monsters. though as useful as this occasionally is, I don't feel it's enough to carry the entire god 03:37:13 and identify was used in zigs 03:37:31 elliptic: there was this nerf attempt to DMonsters which didn't really cure the problem (the spell could wake casters). 03:37:33 and I don't like the xp boost, and I have mixed feelings about skill redistribution 03:37:49 dpeg_: yes, that actually made the spell better in some ways 03:37:58 elliptic: that was ... not intended 03:38:15 Wensley: I don't get all the complaints about reskilling. 03:38:38 because casters would come to you and you could still keep track of where they were, so you could fight them in a situation of your choosing 03:38:43 dpeg: don't consider me a complainer yet, I haven't tried it out 03:38:52 it did keep me from using DMonsters on zot:5 though 03:39:03 elliptic: yes, that was the goal Erik had 03:39:28 Wensley: people tell me it won't fit Ash's flavour 03:40:04 on snake:5, for instance, casting DMonsters would make all the dangerous nagas wander out of the vault so you could fight them individually 03:40:13 her flavour seems to be shifting away from divinations and curses and more towards knowledge in general, which I think is fine 03:41:07 elliptic: I understand the scum :) 03:41:42 dpeg_: have you considered for ash's DMonster ability, having it show the glyph but not color like with the spell? 03:41:58 Wensley: flavour is cheap, it should come last as long as we know what we're doing. Reskilling is clearly close enough to the basic concept of Ashenzari that I don't see any problems explaining it later on. 03:42:05 elliptic: yes, of course 03:42:11 elliptic: kilobyte was sceptical 03:42:14 ...we 03:42:21 d need to think about monster colours 03:42:27 I proposed the same for items, btw. 03:42:32 why are the colors relevant? 03:42:38 the glyph is what matters for this 03:42:41 dpeg: I feel like showing the glyph alone would make it much more useful, tactically 03:42:47 We need a Ash-only monster colour. 03:42:55 (as opposed to showing only a disturbance) 03:42:57 I suggested darkgrey yesterday but no one responded. 03:43:21 is it really that important that monsters detected out of sight have a different color from any monster in sight? 03:43:31 Wensley: I know that. Only our unability to show glyphs (we'll see) made me look for the weak/strong distinction. 03:43:52 elliptic: I didn't think so. Need to talk about that with kilobyte again. 03:43:58 currently the map displays memories of monsters in certain locations in some color or other (dark grey?), can't we use that? 03:44:08 Yes, I'd believe so. 03:44:10 or maybe not that, hm 03:44:16 how would you distinguish them? 03:44:21 But there are inevitably some issues :) 03:44:22 not good to have it be the same color as memories of monsters, yes 03:44:34 but still, it seems like the same problem happens there 03:44:42 they could have a unique background color 03:44:45 So ideally you'd have an Ash colour for monsters. 03:44:46 white, perhaps 03:44:55 Barring that, we could have an Ash-branding, as Wensley says. 03:45:16 yeah, that would work too 03:45:37 tiles might still present a problem 03:45:54 One problem with that is how it makes the vision ability less useful. 03:46:02 scrying? 03:46:07 Wensley: no, tiles are easier in that regard. 03:46:10 Wensley: yes 03:46:31 of course, you might use scrying to see the colour of that letter :) 03:46:52 Is orange available as a background colour? Probably not :( 03:47:04 orange might be too similar to yellow 03:47:23 This won't matter in this case, I believe. 03:47:26 what branding is there currently? blue, yellow, anything else? 03:47:43 one type is always out of LOS, the other always in LOS 03:47:54 dpeg_: you can't use bright colours as background 03:47:54 kilobyte: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 03:48:00 kilobyte: sniff# 03:48:13 kilobyte: the glyph itself would always be the same color 03:48:21 (not sure where you came in) 03:48:33 Wensley: kilobyte is talking about branding 03:48:37 orange is impossible 03:48:53 We could use orange letters and check which monsters use the orange colour 03:49:13 is orange ash's color now? :P 03:49:14 or we could use something like orange on white 03:49:21 Wensley: seems like it... the altar is orange 03:49:35 right, but is that only because so few other altars use it 03:49:38 I like orange on white 03:52:32 kilobyte: why were you opposed to showing the glyphs of enemies? I don't remember seeing it discussed anywhere 03:56:47 enemies? Not really. I were (and still am) opposed to showing glyphs of items. 03:57:27 "a weapon" tells you nothing but would require moving everything of one of colors away 03:58:05 "a giant", "an orc" or "a centauroid" is plenty of information -- perhaps even too much 03:59:06 yeah, there aren't enough different item glyphs for it to be very interesting 03:59:13 sacrificing a colour for something too powerful is not a waste, sacrificing for something useless is 03:59:47 also items are far less tactically interesting to detect 04:00:26 kilobyte: re id, here are my thoughts: Ash-id'd items should be autoinscribed. If the body part is bounded, identification should happen not just when you pick up the item but already when you see it (I am not sure on this one, but it'd be a whole lot more convenient.) 04:01:11 elliptic: absolutely. This is why my original proposal had a "not really necessary" clause on item detection. 04:02:23 dpeg_: at least on the ground under you, certainly. And probably everywhere else as well. 04:03:47 dpeg: regarding item detection, I liked eronarn's idea of lower-level item hinting, although I would have to be familiar with the code to know if its implementation is in any way feasible 04:04:43 enne: are you awake? If so, could you tell us what are the problems when adding tiles for items (more important) and monsters (less) to stable versions? I recall there were some issues. 04:05:45 Wensley: what is that (lower level item hinting)? 04:06:35 I think that'd it be cool, even if not really useful, if Ash pointed out the existence of interesting items (unidentified !/?", randarts, emergency items), suppressing all others. 04:06:57 You'd see them all anyway, but you would be a little more excited for a short while. 04:08:23 dpeg_: As I indicated the other day, I don't like giving a classification of emergency items any gameplay effect... but pointing out randarts and items of unIDed flavors sounds cool 04:09:05 dpeg: it hinges on the idea that ash knows that, say, two dungeon levels down, there exists an item that you should find desirable, and informs you as such. For example, you're on d:8, and you're using a +0 hand axe, and ash knows that there is an enchanted axe on d:10, she would inform you as such, thus effectively daring you to choose whether it's worth scouring d:10 for that axe (whose... 04:09:07 ...properties you don't know exactly) or heading off to do, say, lair. it has some potential to create interesting decisions 04:09:41 but it's just one alternative to item detection 04:10:02 Wensley: this is impossible atm 04:10:20 haha, I basically figured as much :) 04:10:30 doesn't mean I don't like the idea, though 04:11:53 off, back later 04:14:07 not straight impossible, would require a reworking of timed portals, though 04:14:41 I'm not too fond of the idea, too 04:18:07 just briefly: Wensley, the problem is that levels are not generated in advance. We could do this like delayed gifting (i.e. announce item now, place it once the player visits the destination level), but I don't really like item gifts. 04:18:41 with Ash gifting re-skilling, you're better off to adapt to what you find anyway 04:19:16 dpeg: the "gift" could replace an item of similar value on the level in which it is supposed to be generated, to keep loot constant 04:19:34 is re-skilling in trunk yet? I'd love to try it out 04:19:54 Wensley: not yet 04:20:35 the interface is :P 04:20:41 interesting, I now have a book containing selective amnesia, in trunk 04:20:49 bug! 04:20:54 Wensley: it'd still be a gift :) 04:21:08 this is the lugonu gift altar vault 04:21:09 but! a much more interesting gift than those of any other god 04:21:40 elliptic: I think they reported that already, there were plans to change that book to scrolls of amnesia 04:22:01 Wensley: at least not an infinite chain of gifts, yes. But as I said, instead of Ash adapting to the player by gifting the good item, the player should adapt to item he finds via changing skills. 04:22:10 Wensley: I will look at those vaults, yes. 04:22:42 elliptic: should be already fixed... 04:23:09 kilobyte: if so, the fix isn't on CDO yet 04:23:11 wensley: I'm working on re-skilling. 04:27:28 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 04:28:08 hi Mu_! 04:28:13 hail 04:29:01 Mu_: I can't seem to find that you agreed to the relicensing in my notes, even though I _think_ I remember that. 04:29:46 i literally don't understand or really care about anything to do with licensing 04:30:18 Mu_: just say "yes", please :) 04:30:35 yes!!! 04:30:45 Mu_: thanks! :p 04:30:55 wasn't sure if i was expected to have an opinion since i just make vaults :P 04:30:55 "Hereby I withdraw any rights on whatsoever of my work, and of my brain, and heck of my body to all interested parties." 04:31:06 dpeg_: :p 04:31:20 private ownership is theft 04:31:28 Mu_: We don't want your opinion, we want your Yes! 04:31:34 dpeg_: we need to get people to sign away their rights to their first born and their heads some day 04:31:45 absolutely 04:31:52 privacy = terrorism, after all 04:36:16 -!- Pseudonut has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:39:54 so what's the interface like for re-skilling? 04:41:58 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 04:43:34 wensley: well, there's a menu which list your skills, you choose one 04:44:17 then another menu, almsot identical to the first appart from the fact that the skill you chose in the first has been removed (also the ones that are already at 27) 04:44:44 you choose the destination skill 04:44:48 and that's it 04:44:57 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 04:45:00 ugly but functional :) 04:45:21 how much xp is taken out of the first chosen skill? 04:45:53 half, with a minimum of about skill level 5 04:46:38 interesting. how does it handle taking xp out of fire and putting it into ice? 04:46:52 well, much less will transfer 04:47:55 I suppose this would also change your title... and also make getting any title you want significantly easier 04:48:12 sure 04:50:44 I can see what eronarn was talking about, I do like the idea of ash instructing you in a skill but I don't know how I feel about her causing you to forget. I think I'd almost rather that you could spend piety on an "instruction" ability, which would just dump all the xp from your pool into a skill, as per the effect of manuals 04:51:21 but I'm still excited to try it out 04:56:10 -!- Napkin has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:59:33 -!- Napkin has joined ##crawl-dev 05:10:14 -!- Napkin has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:42:28 Bleeding occurs even when you deal 0 damage (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2746) by ledtim 05:45:30 -!- Wensley has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.17/2009122204]] 05:48:24 -!- TGWi has joined ##crawl-dev 06:01:00 -!- Napkin has joined ##crawl-dev 06:22:13 -!- m1nced has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:22:42 More interesting vestibule. (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2747) by Arxale 06:24:18 -!- TGWi has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:29:24 -!- Napkin has quit [Quit: leaving...] 06:30:01 -!- Napkin has joined ##crawl-dev 06:31:29 -!- bhaak has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 06:32:38 -!- bhaak has joined ##crawl-dev 06:35:48 -!- m1nced has joined ##crawl-dev 06:44:43 -!- m1nced has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:53:18 -!- casmith_789 has joined ##crawl-dev 06:53:28 -!- casmith789 has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:03:17 -!- upsy has joined ##crawl-dev 07:48:22 03kilobyte * r86ea5a49b933 10/crawl-ref/source/misc.cc: Felids: don't even consider squares occupied by monsters as a "safe spot" for reviving. 07:48:25 03kilobyte * r4e401e29322c 10/crawl-ref/source/player.cc: Revert "Felids: nerf the hp gains from Fighting." 07:55:50 -!- elliptic has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:00:39 -!- upsy has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:30:30 -!- Spray has joined ##crawl-dev 08:32:10 -!- Spray is now known as FunkyGnoll 08:32:46 -!- MadCoyote has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:38:53 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 08:44:46 Morning 09:08:47 kilobyte: Because tile indices are saved directly, it has similar issues to inserting new enums. 09:09:26 You'd screw up anything that used a tile directly (specified in a vault .des) or the "what you remember seeing here" part of the level save. 09:10:18 If you add them at the end, you should be fine? 09:11:34 you could solve issues like that with using actual "names" for tiles but that would enlargen the savefiles by quite a lot and you would have to save all the tiles in separate files 09:12:59 felirx: Absolutely. It was just never a large priority. How often do you add new tiles to stable versions, anyway? 09:13:18 for stables, ~never 09:13:47 it's only an issue on the trunk builds, hilariously breaking older saves :) 09:14:09 like this http://www.student.oulu.fi/~jannelah/crawl/crawlerrwhat.jpg 09:15:05 That's a familiar picture. 09:15:59 There might be some simpler solution for trunk too, like just invalidating all of the saved tiles and having it regenerate defaults, in the same way that it would when you loaded a console save in the tile version. 09:17:04 Oh, and invalidating all of tile_flv as well, since that specifies tiles directly. 09:25:29 A flag to do so would be nice. 09:44:53 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 09:45:09 -!- m1nced has joined ##crawl-dev 09:46:53 Hi all 09:47:49 Hi dpeg. 09:47:57 I''m still working on attached leeches 09:48:32 * dpeg_ attaches some leeches to all outgoing emails. 09:48:42 I feel quite attached to them. 09:49:26 :p 09:50:23 due: constriction!11 09:50:39 dpeg_: i posted some ash suggestions. 09:50:56 Eronarn: I can't be fucked to write constriction. 09:51:06 I'm only doing snail shells + attachment so I have free reign to implement cool new monsters. 09:51:17 due: what's leech attachment, if it isn't constriction? 09:51:19 I'll do constriction as my dpeg-appeasing act for the next batch of coolies. 09:51:29 The leech is stuck to you, sucks your blood, and follows you around. 09:51:38 right, i mean, flavor-wise, it's different 09:51:39 -!- m1nced has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.13/20100914130356]] 09:51:42 True. 09:51:45 but mechanically, you could implement constriction similarly 09:51:51 Well, yes 09:51:56 But not code-wise. 09:52:15 due: I want players to push shelled turtles and retreated snails around!!! 09:52:24 dpeg_: ... no. 09:52:31 dpeg_: Unlses you want to make a shelled turtles sokoban. 09:52:34 due: sure I want! 09:52:35 In which case I may have to kill you. 09:52:47 no sokoban, yes Super Mario 09:52:54 due: why not? the way i would handle it is a generalized 'X is stuck to Y' 09:53:01 Eronarn: yes, we have discussed Ash earlier today 09:53:20 Eronarn: constriction and leeching is not really the same 09:53:20 enne: does that apply to items as well? Monsters seem to store the index sometimes, items appear to always pick it anew. 09:53:48 dpeg_: with friction or without? 09:53:58 dpeg_: not on face, but: -they are both status effects -they both can have some per-turn thing happen because of the constriction -they both end when the constrictor moves away 09:54:02 Eronarn: Because they're not coded at all the same. 09:54:30 Eronarn: Constriction requires limiting the player movement, attachment of leeches requires limiting the monster movement to following closely to you. 09:54:34 kilobyte: the pushing? With lots of friction. 09:54:42 Pretty hard to push a turtle around. 09:54:47 dpeg_: I mean, do you want to have them pushed one square (much friction), a larger distance (less) or until a wall (none) 09:55:00 kilobyte: ah, I see. One square. 09:55:25 beh, that's realistic but nowhere in the spirit of Mario :p 09:55:31 due: sure, but that's something i think should be generalized: for example, it will feel really silly if constrictor snake can prevent a dragonform PC from moving. if it's more generalized, you can do a size check, and have the snake cling but not prevent movement 09:55:51 due: the point is that you won't try to attack a shelled snail/turtle, you'd (try to -- this depends on Str) to push it :) 09:56:01 (and in fact, bring the snake along when you move) 09:56:31 kilobyte: Yes, items too. The player dolls (and remembered monster dolls) store the doll item tiles. The remembered map view stores the big item tiles. 09:56:36 this is relevant for if PCs gain constriction, too 09:57:01 Eronarn: ... 09:57:03 Eronarn: the idea was that constricted beings cannot move anymore 09:57:15 Eronarn: Have you read the code at all? 09:57:22 this applies to monster nagas constricting you and player nagas constricting anybody else 09:57:31 due: it's my understanding that the current constriction code is just a renamed physical attack 09:57:39 No, I mean, the movement code? 09:57:41 Or anything? 09:58:05 I'm not writing a general framework for player/monster movement rules because it is too damn complicated. 09:58:34 enne: dc-item.txt seems to end with gold, yet in the output file there's a lot of other stuff 09:58:38 oh well :( i guess leeches having attachment is a good start, at least 09:58:42 Or on a more positive note: Once due has added ten or twelve new monsters, some of them with leeching, he may attack constriction. 09:58:56 dpeg_: ;) 09:59:06 You've already seen the new monsters I'm going to add. 09:59:25 * dpeg_ is afraid. Very afraid. 09:59:30 ??rules 09:59:31 I don't have a page labeled rules in my learndb. 09:59:37 treefolk?! 09:59:47 enne: ah, I see it: rltiles/dc-main.txt:%include dc-item.txt 09:59:47 !learn add rules Remove a monster for every monster you add. 09:59:48 rules[1/1]: Remove a monster for every monster you add. 09:59:57 kilobyte: You beat me to it. :) 10:00:05 Well, I have to finish stair mimics... 10:00:07 !learn add rules If it's not dead for 300 years at least, we cannot add it. Sorry. 10:00:07 rules[2/2]: If it's not dead for 300 years at least, we cannot add it. Sorry. 10:00:13 MONS_BOG_MUMMY, 10:00:13 MONS_FIRECRAB, 10:00:13 MONS_SKY_BEAST, 10:00:13 MONS_LABORATORY_RAT, 10:00:13 MONS_PORCUPINE, 10:00:19 And then those. 10:00:29 enne: between files, the enums have different spaces, right? 10:00:34 I'm thinking of adding a wall mimic. 10:03:25 * due crawls ino bed. 10:03:44 sleep well, due 10:04:25 dpeg_: Octopus race. :( 10:05:22 why :( ? 10:07:06 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 10:07:59 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Quit: Page closed] 10:09:17 dpeg_: 8 ring slots!!! 10:09:55 and with that, I am off 10:09:59 -!- dpeg_ has quit [Quit: trains] 10:10:07 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: more trains] 10:12:15 due, what are laboratory rats and porcupines going to be? 10:12:20 due, and what are they going to be _for_ 10:28:03 -!- kilobyte has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:28:59 -!- kilobyte has joined ##crawl-dev 10:31:55 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:40:55 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 10:41:37 -!- upsy has joined ##crawl-dev 10:53:28 -!- galehar has quit [Quit: Page closed] 11:02:50 -!- Moriasc has joined ##crawl-dev 11:08:04 kilobyte: There are three different spaces for tile indices: dngn, main, and gui. 11:09:07 kilobyte: If you look at tiledef-wall.h, for example, it starts its enum at TILE_FLOOR_MAX, so it's in the same dngn space. 11:26:56 -!- casmith_789 is now known as casmith789 11:38:03 -!- Moriasc has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:41:41 -!- Kurper has joined ##crawl-dev 11:54:10 -!- Pseudonut has joined ##crawl-dev 11:57:19 Rar. 11:57:53 arj 12:00:23 03Cryp71c * r5bc0a929d05c 10/crawl-ref/source/fight.cc: Prevent monsters from bleeding when no damage was dealt 12:13:10 -!- Pseudonut has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:18:22 -!- Pseudonut has joined ##crawl-dev 12:24:17 03dolorous * r6a9165c1b895 10/crawl-ref/source/monster.cc: Simplify drowning check for monsters. 12:24:17 03dolorous * r5a8a2888f0d1 10/crawl-ref/source/ (actor.h beam.cc monster.cc monster.h player.cc player.h): Make actors with tracheae paralyzed by curare if they don't asphyxiate. 12:26:18 -!- monky has joined ##crawl-dev 12:28:22 -!- Pseudonut has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:36:33 -!- valrus_ has joined ##crawl-dev 12:37:13 -!- ortoslon has joined ##crawl-dev 13:04:55 03dolorous * r1303746994c5 10/crawl-ref/source/ (monster.cc player.cc): Clean up monster and player drowning checks a bit more. 13:10:04 -!- FunkyGnoll has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:10:35 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 13:12:35 with that trachea commit, it's intentional that curare paralyzes bugs? It should slow them like everything else 13:12:55 or I guess alternatively everything else should be paralyzed too 13:13:05 respiratory system wouldn't affect this 13:14:08 -!- MadCoyote has joined ##crawl-dev 13:14:12 crawl needs more poisons 13:14:15 platypus venom 13:15:21 which is a potent neurotoxin that causes unimaginable pain, and thus reduces your max health by half while under its effect 13:18:36 how about add platypuses first? 13:18:46 new "r" monster 13:18:57 FR: more rats 13:19:08 platypuses are like one-sixth rat 13:19:16 also for curare, it's a muscle relaxant, so the only consideration would be that things that don't breathe with muscles don't take suffocation damage 13:19:30 and I'd think that that's putting realism before gameplay, but whatever 13:19:44 could just change the name? 13:20:09 I don't think that most people who play crawl even know what curare is in the real world, so it having unrealistic effects is not that severe 13:20:31 well the flip side of that is if most people don't know what it is anyway, why not just give it a new name 13:20:51 "red venom" or something? to match red wasps? 13:21:04 i like that i learned what curare was by playing crawl 13:21:06 kind of flavorless though 13:21:12 Zannick: same here 13:21:14 I am sure we are not alone 13:21:27 but there's problem with it being some kind of magical poison 13:21:29 even without a rename 13:21:31 it came up in cog psych 13:21:47 why were you talking about poisons in cog psych 13:22:43 or is "cog psych" some sick pseudonym for 13:22:49 "assassins guild training" 13:22:52 they were going to murder their prof 13:23:28 oh no, don't try and it word it like you were an innocent bystander 13:23:29 there was some experiment some time ago where a guy went paralyzed with curare to see if he still experienced reality 13:23:40 valrus was in on it to 13:23:42 *too 13:23:52 Zannick: that's hilarious 13:24:41 but yeah, I totally support platypuses being implemented, along with platypus venom 13:24:56 I'm going to the wikipedia article on venom to look up more venoms to implement 13:27:13 digitalis 13:28:09 or dioxin, favorite russian assassination poison <3 13:28:59 oh wow, I was not aware that there was a distinction between poison and venom 13:29:01 the more you know 13:30:33 poison is ingested, venom is...spat 13:30:45 i guess. 13:31:00 can venom also be... stabbed into 13:31:14 yes 13:31:15 put that venom up in 'em until you leave 'em with the shakes 13:31:23 venom is injected, poison is ingested or inhaled 13:31:40 venom is given, poison is received 13:31:48 -!- Pseudonut has joined ##crawl-dev 13:33:18 a very poetic statement 13:35:19 I'm actually impressed at how realistic crawl is thus far with regard to poisons... such as having poisonous caterpillars, or having bees poison you while wasps paralyze you 13:35:43 well, i've been stung by wasps without being paralyzed before :P 13:35:45 in real life 13:35:53 poisonous caterpillars? 13:36:05 bees synthesize and employ an acidic venom (apitoxin) to cause pain in those that they sting, whereas wasps use a chemically different venom designed to paralyze prey, so it can be stored alive in the food chambers of their young. 13:36:12 ^ quoted 13:36:30 Many caterpillars have defensive venom glands associated with specialized bristles on the body, known as urticating hairs, and can be lethal to humans (e.g., that of the Lonomia moth). 13:36:35 ^ also quoted 13:36:45 no I mean 13:36:46 in crawl 13:36:51 @?giant caterpillar 13:36:51 unknown monster: "giant caterpillar" 13:36:54 what 13:36:59 ??giant caterpillar 13:36:59 I don't have a page labeled giant_caterpillar in my learndb. 13:37:01 what 13:37:07 I know about poisonous caterpillars, my dad was stung by all the ones that exist in north america :P 13:37:11 you must be hallucinating 13:37:17 no, they are there 13:37:21 they are in lair, dammit! 13:37:38 @? giant slug 13:37:38 giant slug (03j) | Speed: 6 | HD: 10 | Health: 54-76 | AC/EV: 0/2 | Damage: 23 | Flags: amphibious | Res: 06magic(40) | Chunks: 09poisonous | XP: 96. 13:37:48 no, there are caterpillar 13:37:50 S 13:38:02 dammit, now I must go on a quest to find them 13:38:07 they totally exist 13:38:14 grepping the database doesn't find any 13:38:26 I find them all the time 13:38:32 there's no way I'm imagining this 13:38:38 grep -i "caterpillar" mon-data.h 13:38:43 [none] 13:38:56 caterpillars would be awesome 13:39:11 are you thinking spiny worms or something 13:39:15 they morph into butterflies 13:39:19 oh wait, I was thinking of centipede 13:39:25 haha 13:39:29 wow why would I confuse those 13:39:34 @?giant centipede 13:39:34 giant centipede (03s) | Speed: 13 | HD: 2 | Health: 6-12 | AC/EV: 2/14 | Damage: 208(nasty poison) | Res: 06magic(8) | Vul: 09poison | Chunks: 09poisonous | XP: 12. 13:39:36 crawl needs coconut crabs 13:39:44 YES 13:39:51 ...did you just ctcp facepalm? 13:39:52 XD 13:39:55 a thousand times this 13:40:25 Zannick: I was seeing what ctrl-enter did 13:40:28 <- irc noob 13:40:29 crawl needs flanking rules 13:40:51 crawl has shanking rules 13:41:00 also ganking rules 13:41:26 rather than pretending everyone has greater uncanny dodge 13:42:24 Zannick: don't let d-p-e-g hear you talking about adding D&D rules to crawl 13:42:36 no, it's okay 13:42:39 mtg has flanking, too 13:43:10 he's heard so many silly ideas from me already :P 13:43:26 don't worry, nobody has as many silly ideas as i do 13:43:28 the more silly ideas i come up with, the more good ideas i come up with, too, though 13:43:36 eronarn: like hell I don't 13:46:25 shoals needs megalodons, which swallow you and force you to traverse their stomach dungeon 13:46:48 Zone Eater? 13:47:20 nah 13:47:23 whale unique, Leviathan 13:47:43 leviathan isn't a whale, he's a world serpent 13:47:51 leviathan isn't real 13:47:58 he is in my dreams :( 13:49:17 also I love this idea, let's get started on a leviathan portal vault 13:49:23 OUROBOROS? 13:49:27 in soviet shoals, portal vault enters you 13:50:37 Wensley: meat walls. 13:51:23 you start in the middle of leviathan, at the stomach, and either have to work your way up to the brain or down to the heart to escape 13:51:39 here we are presuming that world serpents keep their hearts farther down than their stomachs 13:51:45 digestive juice pools instead of shallow water/deep water 13:52:10 right, with a light acidic effect 13:52:25 man, crawl is overdue for acid pools 13:52:59 crawl is not overdue for any more Goddamn acid 13:53:25 colossal fluke 13:53:51 slime needs acid pools 13:54:31 nope 13:54:44 totally does, with acid krakens 13:54:54 -!- upsy has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:55:17 that pull you deeper into the acid 13:55:30 especially now that slime won't corrode your armor any more 13:55:37 slime walls, rather 13:57:05 acid sirens 13:58:12 acid eyes 13:58:19 LOS acid attack 13:58:32 -!- upsy has joined ##crawl-dev 13:59:57 are there acid dragons that breathe acid? 14:00:05 FR: LSD dragons 14:00:08 No, there are no acid dragons. 14:00:09 only dracs 14:00:11 Thank god. 14:00:27 Screw acid blobs and yellow draconian _noun_ 14:00:43 -!- ortoslon has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:00:56 acid blobs can eat a dick 14:00:58 literally 14:01:04 better wear your dwarven codpiece 14:01:22 FR: codpieces 14:01:23 crystal plate codpiece 14:02:25 and a race whose only armor slot is a codpiece 14:02:43 felid 14:02:46 (as a helmet) 14:03:18 well, that would be like bardings, more or less 14:03:31 You see here a human barding. 14:03:44 centaurs and nagas can wear lots of other armour 14:04:00 "hey sugar, wanna help me equip my naga with a +4 barding?" 14:04:02 i mean codpieces in general 14:04:09 o 14:06:58 ??rules 14:06:59 rules[1/2]: Remove a monster for every monster you add. 14:07:06 !learn add rules Remove a god for every god you add. 14:07:06 rules[3/3]: Remove a god for every god you add. 14:07:13 Wait 14:07:22 ??rules[2] 14:07:22 !learn edit rules[3] s/.*/Remove two gods for every god you add./ 14:07:22 rules[2/3]: If it's not dead for 300 years at least, we cannot add it. Sorry. 14:07:22 rules[3/3]: Remove two gods for every god you add. 14:07:26 I thought we were going to get to 27 14:07:46 we'll loop back around if we go low enough 14:07:49 !learn add rules Switch out a branch for every branch you add. 14:07:50 rules[4/4]: Switch out a branch for every branch you add. 14:08:15 !learn add rules When in doubt, nerf felids. 14:08:15 rules[5/5]: When in doubt, nerf felids. 14:10:51 remove felids 14:11:10 -!- TGWi has joined ##crawl-dev 14:12:50 add fish race 14:12:58 Remove two races for every race you add. 14:13:11 Then nerf a few classes. 14:13:52 we could roll every race into a single race 14:14:27 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 14:14:31 it would have damage shaving, inability to heal, normal size, normal apts, slightly faster speed than average, slightly faster metabolism than average, and could not worship gods 14:14:44 hahaha 14:14:52 idea rejected 14:14:56 dpeg: :) 14:14:56 What are we talking about? 14:15:02 that's the idea for combining every race into one 14:15:25 we could add gnolls 14:15:29 Averaging = bad 14:15:35 right, noted :) 14:15:40 TGWi: species distinction = good 14:15:58 are you suggesting gnolls aren't distinct? 14:16:00 species flood = bad 14:16:02 dpeg: let's roll halflings into kobolds and call them "kobolds" 14:16:27 wensley's master plan is to eliminate all small races 14:16:33 no! just halflings!! 14:16:33 but he realizes he has to do it incrementally 14:16:38 and felids? 14:16:40 curse you, valrus!! 14:16:49 felids aren't a race, they're an abomination 14:16:50 also 14:16:52 I KNOW YOUR GAME 14:16:53 FR: abomination race 14:17:02 <-- shakes fist! 14:17:04 hey let's make krakens playable 14:17:07 unseen horror race 14:17:21 a race that is permanently invisible would have overlap with spriggans 14:17:41 haha 14:17:52 Seems to me I logged into ##crawl accidentally. 14:17:52 let's turn kenku into bats so that we can give them echolocation 14:17:57 dpeg: unless there are already plans for a medium carnivorous dodging-oriented polearm user with creature detection 14:18:20 dpeg: we're just getting bad ideas out of our system so all that's left are the good ones :) 14:18:42 although sadly it is an eternal procession of trip 14:18:44 dpeg: no, because no one is berating you for removing divinations in here 14:18:44 *tripe 14:19:22 Let's remove felids and add walruses as a playable species 14:19:35 let's add a new race then remove it 14:19:37 oh hi greensnark 14:19:49 i wholeheartedly endorse greensnark's idea 100% absolutely forever 14:19:50 Hey it's TGWayne in disguise 14:20:13 let's add a monster mode to crawl where you play as a monster 14:20:19 greensnark: cheers! 14:20:22 !coffee greensnark 14:20:23 * Henzell hands greensnark a cup of irish coffee, brewed by Ijyb. 14:20:43 Irish is good 14:22:14 !won * race=fe 14:22:15 * (race=fe) has won 9 times in 469 games (1.92%): 3xFeBe 2xFeFE 1xFeMo 1xFeRe 1xFeWr 1xFeWz 14:22:34 greensnark: can you say overpowered? 14:23:02 Well, the whole multiple lives mechanism is never going to be balanceable :P 14:23:27 It has been won, so it must be broken. 14:23:43 Is that the rule of thumb these days? 14:23:49 could make it work like lifesaving instead :p 14:23:53 No wonder AC got nerfed so hard. :P 14:24:15 Mu_: That's a good idea 14:25:47 make it not happen, by removing felids 14:26:34 years from now this will be referred to as the great felid war of 2010 14:27:00 Add a felid unique with nine lives and call it a day 14:27:25 remove felids and gnolls 14:27:31 greensnark: Adam's obsessed with cats, let him play :) 14:27:38 Wait, gnolls are playable now? :) 14:27:39 add octopus 14:27:48 greensnark: preemptive removal; tgw wants to add them 14:28:12 !lg * s=char / won o=% 14:28:13 Well if we remove them we have to add them later to prevent precognition headaches 14:28:38 3330/829022 games for *: 2/13x FeFE [15.38%], 1/7x FeRe [14.29%], 3/23x FeBe [13.04%], 1/10x GnPr [10.00%], 1/10x FeWr [10.00%], 1/10x OMAs [10.00%], 1/10x FeWz [10.00%], 3/35x CeAs [8.57%], 1/14x GECK [7.14%], 1/15x GEBe [6.67%], 4/64x MiWr [6.25%], 1/18x DDVM [5.56%], 2/39x DDCj [5.13%], 1/21x OMBe [4.76%], 1/24x DDIE [4.17%], 1/25x MiTh [4.00%], 2/51x GhHu [3.92%], 4/104x TrAE [3.85%], 2/53x DD... 14:29:16 weird list 14:30:03 greensnark: have you seen nomes? 14:30:15 Nomes? 14:30:30 Autoexplore gives incorrect completion messages with disjointed areas (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2748) by OG17 14:30:31 https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?do=show&id=dcss%3Abrainstorm%3Aspecies%3Astart%3Anome 14:30:39 They're gnomes who've had a g=onsillectomy? 14:31:48 Walking through walls will essentially make the early game about 1000x easier 14:32:01 I'm not sure that's balanceable at all 14:32:21 nothing wrong with making the early game about 1000x easier 14:32:44 TGWi: yellow card 14:51:53 dpeg: I've been thinking about ash re-skilling, and I think the flavor can be justified as "you offer a sacrifice of knowledge to ashenzari in exchange for a taste of her wisdom" 14:52:27 Wensley: yes, something like that. 14:52:44 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 14:52:51 this could even serve as an unspoken reason for why she was nailed to the sky: as the god of forbidden knowledge _she knew too much_ 14:53:00 Since we've been think about Ash's theme as related to "wisdom, introverted, knowledge" anyway, this can surely be done. 14:53:10 Wensley: +1 to unspoken 14:53:21 I really mean it: if possible, leave it open 14:54:04 I'm just saying, I don't think that people who object to re-skilling based on flavor objections should object to this 14:54:31 I too was against the idea of saying "you simply forget what you knew for other knowledge" 15:01:12 anyone else find it weird how spiders can use wands but not cats? 15:01:14 -!- gamefreak264 has joined ##crawl-dev 15:01:19 is that going to make picking up ash and dumping her later a regular occurence? 15:02:42 like if you want to re-skill late game you switch to ash for a little bit 15:03:12 currently how it is slated to work is that you select a skill and it takes half of the experience out of that skill (down to about level 5 at most) and puts it in the new skill 15:03:34 so, possibly yes 15:04:01 as long as you left some place unexplored so that you can get piety 15:04:15 abyss? 15:05:21 pan :V 15:05:51 re-skilling seems kinda weird considering how much of crawl has been about how you plan and develop your character 15:05:51 I didn't think those places were going to grant exploration xp 15:06:14 I can see it as a god ability, it's something unique and useful 15:06:23 reskilling is a bad idea, so it fits for ashenzari's current design, which is bad 15:07:10 I'm still surprised that reskilling is even being considered seriously 15:07:16 Wensley: when is it useful? 15:07:34 aside from the minmaxing "lol +fighting, lol -sbl" possibilities 15:07:44 which is just catering to *gasp* power gamers 15:08:28 that concerns me too 15:08:56 go read my proposal, it's 100x better 15:08:57 but I agree with dpeg in that it could encourage people to adapt to the weapons and spellbooks they find as they go, although I am not as certain as he is that they will do so 15:09:28 in this sense, it favors people who have not planned their character in advance, which includes many new players 15:09:31 adapt to weapons, sure... not sure that this is interesting 15:09:51 What are we arguing about today? 15:09:54 well it would help if weapons were more distinct 15:10:03 oh, I found a really good axe... time to switch xp from polearms to axes 15:10:13 I think temporary +skill is cooler than re-skilling 15:10:27 then support eronarn's proposal on the wiki 15:10:29 elliptic: no, you abuse cross-training THEN reskill it all 15:10:39 Wensley: I'm not convinced anyone reads the wiki 15:10:51 I read the wiki 15:10:54 *I* read the wiki :( 15:11:01 tgwi: that doesn't make sense 15:11:30 skill retraining doesn't make sense 15:12:06 well, depends on how it is implemented I guess 15:12:27 I assumed it would be implemented such that you couldn't manufacture xp out of nowhere by stuff like that 15:12:27 no, it's just not interesting 15:12:55 speaking of which, is ash still giving an exp boost? 15:13:17 hopefully not 15:13:32 that also sounds crazy 15:13:34 good, though I'm not sure I like skill retraining any better 15:13:46 skill boosting is better than retraining 15:14:14 if skill retraining happens then ash wrath should definitely retrain your skills for you 15:15:29 neither of those should happen 15:16:52 moving all your fighting skill into slings would be way too severe of a wrath 15:16:58 elliptic: drop all your exp into T&D, staves (but no fighting) and evocation? 15:17:14 castmight789: artificers would love her 15:17:20 pseudonut: it would be necessary though, to balance out the ridiculousness of controlled reskilling 15:17:21 castmight? 15:17:43 my internal spellcheck prevented me from typing your name 15:17:48 :D 15:17:57 casting might is cheating 15:18:01 ca 15:18:20 seriously guys go post on the wiki about how much you love my proposal 15:18:27 there's no way to balance controlled reskilling 15:18:42 you can do controlled reskilling already 15:18:59 1) turn all your skills off 2) kill an orb of fire 3) cast flame tongue 3000 times 15:19:09 that's controlled skilling 15:19:16 words: they mean things 15:19:17 we need a trunk-only race that gradually accumulates every overpowered idea: a race of smite-scrying re-skilling rock worms with nine lives 15:19:17 casmith789: ^Qyes is what you meant 15:19:39 Wensley: and eight ring slots, and brain feed 15:19:47 and eating corpses to gain intrinsics 15:19:47 I'll make a wiki page 15:20:02 the "terrible" branch 15:20:18 also it has roots which it spreads 15:20:22 Eronarn: is the piety cost necessary for divine instruction? 15:20:41 TGWi: i'm not sure it's necessary, but i think it would depend on what else ash gives 15:21:00 I'm just not sure I'd spend piety for a few skill points 15:21:19 still plenty interactive because you get to choose, and you have to be cursed to get any bonus 15:21:27 TGWi: going from, say, 8 skill to 12 skill is a pretty big boost 15:21:40 how about an ash ability that recreates the effect of a manual for any skill you choose, to save you the trouble of victory dancing 15:21:48 no 15:21:56 that'd be worthless basically 15:22:15 why would that be ash as opposed to anyone else? 15:22:35 how about an ash ability that gives you random entries from learndb 15:22:39 as wisdom or something 15:22:48 why is ash all the sudden the skill and experience god 15:23:09 because 'information' / 'knowledge' aren't actually strong enough concepts to build a god around 15:23:19 because everyone realized that divinations weren't all that useful 15:23:39 maybe chei and ash should be merged? 15:23:47 chei could use the divination abilities 15:23:49 god of slow thinking 15:24:02 ??rules[3] 15:24:02 rules[3/5]: Remove two gods for every god you add. 15:24:33 -!- gamefreak264 has quit [Quit: I QUIT!] 15:25:30 maybe ash should be merged with sif 15:25:57 ash worshipers should get notifications from the ash irc bot 15:26:10 makes sense thematically 15:26:21 and sif gives you little in terms of abilities 15:27:48 sif already has a niche, though, as the god of general spellcasting. I think ash could actually be an interesting, fun, and distinct god if we do it right 15:28:09 I still think ash + chei would be good synergy 15:28:16 what's the synergy there? 15:28:17 moving slowly is less dangerous if you know where stuff is 15:28:34 i think ash would be basically okay if he were: -wear cursed stuff -get a significant boost to one or two skills -get strategic boosts (before going to levels) -tactical scrying (but not necessarily the current passive div) -one other interesting ability 15:28:43 less likely to step around a corner and be bolted twice in one turn by frederick 15:29:33 elliptic: i don't think sticking two weak gods together is a good idea 15:29:46 eronarn: why not? it gets rid of both of them :P 15:29:57 we just need to add in the ability to worship multiple gods 15:30:27 ash has self esteem issues and will let you worship other gods at the same time 15:31:13 Pseudonut: be quiet, I'm currently working on a serious proposal for the god of low self-esteem :) 15:31:29 Ash is the divine remora that attaches itself to some other god 15:31:30 instead of being stapled to the sky or whatever ash is, ashchei could just be too lazy to come down and do anything most of the time 15:31:59 ash has really good flavour though 15:32:04 you gotta keep that 15:32:11 it's like the only great part 15:32:14 I thought ash only had really good flavour 15:32:24 then it got really butchered and ignored 15:32:27 cursed items are a lousy mechanic though imo 15:32:40 even if it supports nice flavour 15:32:50 I think the definitions of "curses" needs to be expanded under ash, more than just "items stick to your hand" 15:32:57 cursed items in general are pretty lousy 15:32:59 Wensley: that's what i'm in favor of too 15:33:12 what does that mean though 15:33:29 ash can't affect things, that's as big a part of him as the curses are 15:33:42 TGWi: imo: count stuff like *RAGE as being a curse 15:33:48 no 15:34:01 yes 15:34:05 TGWi: I think the idea is that as you share in ash's curse, you become more cursed yourself (in general, just bad stuff happening to you) 15:34:21 or also your enemies 15:34:34 there was a proposal for an aura of bad luck that you exude 15:34:42 those are both bad ideas 15:34:50 if you worship ash, mennas will have two potions of speed 15:36:45 be a purple drac 16:17:05 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 16:28:12 just back 16:28:15 -!- Eronarn was kicked from ##crawl-dev by dpeg [Eronarn] 16:28:49 hey! 16:29:39 okay folks, if you're gonna drive me away from ##crawl-dev, I'll just leave 16:30:05 dpeg: without you, we devolve into chaos 16:30:16 I am not sure I care too much anymore. 16:30:28 :( 16:30:35 hmm, what did I miss? 16:30:47 galehar: whatever happens, it is not your fault :) 16:31:55 I don't want to cite the statements which make me so sad... 16:32:26 with who was the arguing? 16:32:42 I was away for an hour or two and people have been arguing about Ash. 16:33:04 It is absolutely okay that there's dissent... but they are writing their statements as absolute truths. 16:33:20 I had this before, with every freaking new or revamped god. 16:33:44 I apologize if anything that I said can be interpreted as such 16:34:02 -!- Eronarn has joined ##crawl-dev 16:34:10 22:08 < Eronarn> go read my proposal, it's 100x better 16:34:34 22:06 < Eronarn> reskilling is a bad idea, so it fits for ashenzari's current design, which is bad 16:34:38 22:07 < elliptic> I'm still surprised that reskilling is even being considered seriously 16:35:10 I have been working hard coding reskilling 16:35:17 it's almost done 16:35:39 it's still a bad idea 16:35:41 galehar: you rock! 16:35:43 dpeg: "I am still surprised" is "writing their statements as absolute truths"? 16:35:44 reskilling does sound really broken and powergamey, but what do I know about development 16:35:52 elliptic: no, it's not 16:36:01 I think the only thing capable of alleviating concerns about reskilling is seeing it in action, although it may not have the desired effect 16:36:20 all I meant is that reskilling is something I never expected to see happen 16:36:31 But all these statements (Eronarn's most strongly, of course, which is why I kicked) show a lack of imagination. 16:36:38 We can balance reskilling in so many different way. 16:36:39 s 16:37:27 dpeg: come off it, it's not a lack of imagination to think someone's idea sucks 16:37:35 maybe I'm not creative enough, but the only one I can think of is losing some skill in the progress of reallocation 16:37:36 you're an adult, take criticism like one 16:37:52 Eronarn: it is one think to criticise, what you are doing is something quite different. 16:38:00 elliptic: yes, it _is_ playing with a core mechanic. So really fitting a god if you look at it from that angle. Compare with Lugonu corruption (plus later altar desecration), Nemelex card effects, life saving,... 16:38:46 I have always incorporated good ideas by others, and kicked out inferior ideas of mine... no problems with that. But you're agitating at a time when rational discussion is needed. 16:39:14 does reskilling include the possibility that a fighter could turn into a mage? 16:39:19 dpeg: i've posted not only detailed feedback but a detailed alternative 16:39:33 or is it among equivalent skills, like weapon skills 16:39:39 Pseudonut: why not? All skills. 16:39:52 Note that xp is a finite resource (if we exclude Pan, Abyss). 16:39:55 i'm agitating because the longer ash goes without being revamped, the more attached its designers will get to the current approach 16:40:19 it is better to push for uprooting sooner when something isn't working 16:40:33 dpeg: scumming certain wraths, miscasts, miscast-producing sources, and hell effects can also provide exp 16:40:44 monky: but these are bugs 16:41:16 eronarn: devs have never been so attached to design that they refuse to revamp 16:41:58 galehar: it's not about refusing, it's about resistance, and everyone is subject to it 16:42:14 I'll try and see how (exp-less) royal jelly spawns and pikel slaves work, and maybe implement something similar for those other things 16:42:15 Eronarn: you have never played actual Ashenzari and you are telling me in advance it is broken! I have heard exactly the same when I proposed new Ely, or new Trog. 16:42:25 'actual' ashenzari? 16:42:29 monky: sounds good 16:42:30 by that standard, nobody has. 16:42:33 eronarn: revamping, redesigning, removing, those are all quite common in crawl's devel. You can't say there is refusal of change 16:42:35 Eronarn: the god is in progress 16:42:39 it does make an alternative to victory dancing to get spell skills up, but i'm worried that picking up ash late game just for reskilling will be a common practice 16:42:51 Pseudonut: you have to get the piety from somewhere 16:43:00 dpeg: Great. Meanwhile: 16:43:02 monky: there could be (a) diminishing returns for further reskillings, (b) use galehar's idea that the skill swap isn't instant but rather slowly flows from old to new (and slowly means whenever you get new xp); (c) increasing piety costs 16:43:16 <@bizarro-dpeg> Eronarn: you have never played actual Ashenzari and you are telling me in advance it isn't broken! 16:43:48 (how could a god that grants a school that was removed from the game, and also 30% XP, not be broken? that would be madness!) 16:44:10 The answer is so obvious that I won't reply. 16:44:12 depends on why the school was removed, and if 30% exp is broken 16:44:25 the answer is that you have as much 'actual' ashenzari experience as i do: zero 16:44:31 also, the 30% xp are negotiable and I expect them to go away 16:44:36 (and I always said so) 16:44:40 you get the piety from saving a few unexplored branches 16:44:54 Pseudonut: sure, but that's also a price to pay 16:44:58 dpeg: ok, I understand your mood... 16:45:00 unless this requires worshipping ashenzari for a real long time and you can only do it once or twice 16:45:15 galehar: thank you. Sometimes I wonder who's insane :) 16:45:29 "I am not paranoid, a billion policemen are chasing me!" 16:45:39 :) 16:46:09 galehar: but trust me, I've seen this before (although on ##crawl). 16:46:26 galehar: there's always refusal to change, in every project, and it's completely naive to think that all ideas are judged rationally without biases. crawl isn't as bad as some software projects, but the issue remains (as it does, again, for all humans everywhere) 16:46:53 dpeg: I'm not particularly concerned about balance personally, since you are right that there is lots of things that can be done about balance (this is almost always the case). But reskilling still seems very strange and unflavourful to me... to suddenly forget most of one skill and learn lots of a completely different skill just doesn't make sense to me 16:46:56 "Foo cannot work, it must be [over|under] powered", usually neglecting the fact that we have a number of parameters to play with. Can reskilling be made overpowered? Sure. Can it be made underpowered? Hell yes. So chances are there's a way to balance it. 16:47:12 elliptic: re suddenly: see galehar's idea 16:47:17 chances are that it's not a good idea even if you 'balance' it 16:47:20 well, there is your refusal of trying something new and different, that's true 16:47:44 galehar: hands up if you've read my alternative-to-reskilling proposal 16:48:07 I did, and there is some good idea in it 16:48:08 elliptic: there have been god proposals dabbling with xp and/or skills throughout Crawl history (at least when I was around). I believe that ash is the best place to try it out. IF it fails, we retrace. 16:48:24 dpeg: what is galehar's idea? 16:48:35 then it should be very, very obvious that i'm not against 'something new and different' 16:48:43 have skill points slowly flow from one skill to the other 16:48:47 the effect is not instant 16:48:50 (in fact, if you've ever read like... any of my FRs, *ever*, you'd know that i am strongly interested in new and different) 16:48:56 elliptic: to make the skill flow, not jump instantly. This is obviously better flavour, but secondary: if we're fine with the basic idea, we can do the flow. 16:49:17 i'm not against this because it's new and different but becaue it's not good design, for a god that is already marred by several areas of bad design 16:49:31 Eronarn: you are surely as entrenched as I am, if not more. 16:49:45 dpeg: so you admit that you're entrenched? great, that is a good first step 16:50:31 still seems strange to me even with a slow flow, but I agree that would help if there is a good way of doing it (one that doesn't just encourage waiting around somewhere for a while, say) 16:50:48 I am trying to get a new god out of the door. For that, I have supported a design which is not mine (but which I helped shape, like with Fedhas). It might turn out that some basic assumptions are not as valid as I thought, but mere shouting "this is bad" in advance is not going to impress me much. 16:50:57 elliptic: see my ^ 16:51:04 We would do it with xp gain or piety gain 16:52:34 For all instances of design, there is more than one good choice. Sometimes, there is a clearcut best choice, but that's rare. I really believe that the current Ash idea is good enough to end up with a god that's different from the rest and of use tactically and strategically. In order to get somewhere with development, there have to be some choices. The Ash proposal has been on the wiki for a long time, it was in the agendas and now it is being coded. 16:52:51 We will not change horses without having seen the first horse on the race track. 16:53:19 dpeg: if you are content to just let 'anything at all' be implemented just so that there is something there, there is a strong incentive to stick with that 16:53:50 this gets even stronger as you add more stuff to that initial choice 16:54:30 ash is pretty obviously flawed in some major ways, yet the current work being done is to tack on stuff 'just for now' 16:55:28 this will end up with a god who is complete, but not actually good, yet defended by people committed to it because they've invested in that design 16:55:53 I wonder how you can predict the future so well. 16:56:30 because many aspects of human behavior follow predictable trends 16:56:55 I would suggest to look at DCSS development so far. 16:57:24 cheibriados 16:57:28 dwarven hall 16:57:40 okawaru revamp 16:57:46 sorry to interrupt, but is it worth fixing wrath scumming up with MF_NO_REWARD if they're going to be redone anyway? 16:57:56 monky: probably not 16:58:01 !seen bmh 16:58:01 I last saw bmh at Sun Oct 17 14:41:04 2010 UTC (5d 7h 16m 57s ago) parting ##crawl-dev with message chanpart. 16:58:36 i think in general, that a) claims of being good, bad, or broken should be substantiated (eg. on the wiki), and b) flamewars solve nothing 16:58:39 monky: would you send me a private email? Then I can reply to you and to Brendan. Better than duplicate work. 16:58:48 Zannick: +1 16:59:06 Eronarn: I fail to see how any of these three things are examples of anything. 16:59:24 Sure, Cheibriados has flaws. How does that substantiate what you said? 17:00:21 We never said the god is perfect and I am asking for ideas how to get rid of the armour slot problem any time C is discussed. 17:00:44 Also, C was a radical idea and worked rather well for that. 17:00:53 (Again, not my design, by the way.) 17:01:33 naive approach to solving armour slot problem: base ponderousness (both slowing and rewards for it) on used/available slots 17:01:57 it's probably a bit wonky because of rounding 17:02:30 chei: someone had an idea for a terrible gimmick god; people said it would be a terrible gimmick god; it was implemented anyways; surprise, it turned out to be a terrible gimmick god 17:02:37 monky: yes, that's what we're doing for Ash... we learn from mistakes, after all. Of course, the stat boosts were pretty much tacked on to make sure that ponderous is (visibly!) good, so there might be something better instead. 17:03:01 Eronarn: okay, and now go back and read some of your god proposals, please. 17:03:11 Paying with maxHP, anyone? 17:03:17 dwarven hall: let someone work on their pet branch and think they might have a shot at getting it included; branch sucks; person is now too attached to make necessary changes or even listen to criticism 17:03:42 oka revamp: did you miss how that hasn't happened yet? this is a great example of inertia in design 17:04:10 You sound like b0rsuk who keeps asking why his marvellous ideas are not yet in the game. 17:04:13 yes, some of my gods are terrible gimmick gods - and i am sure if they were coded, i would be just as attached to them 17:04:38 i'm not claiming to be exempt to this, indeed, i am claiming that no one is exempt to this 17:05:05 most of my ideas were gimmicks; the one i actually liked and implemented has rotted 17:05:13 Zannick: which is? 17:05:36 way way back when we were on sourceforge, i made a shapeshifter unique 17:05:56 Zannick: Are you jokeserver? 17:06:01 yes 17:06:04 Ah 17:06:05 Zannick: and your patch was not pulled into trunk? 17:06:12 Zannick: was there any discussion? 17:06:14 no one commented on it :/ 17:06:28 SF was great for burying things :P 17:06:30 i'd be willing to try again 17:06:47 i remember being disappointed in having to cut one of my ideas because i couldn't figure out monster ai 17:06:51 Zannick: it is good to make sure in advance there is some interest :) 17:06:56 yes 17:07:08 one dev suffices for that 17:07:08 Well, monster ai is a festering wound 17:07:13 so now the ideas are posted on the uniques brainstorm page 17:07:14 Worst code left in crawl is the monster ai 17:07:28 "Someone should rewrite that" 17:09:13 greensnark: by the way, Sequell seems dead at the moment 17:09:21 Is it now 17:09:27 !lg 17:09:30 Hm 17:10:11 i might try to rewrite things instead of write new things 17:10:12 476. greensnark the Sneak (L2 GhFE), slain by a hobgoblin (a +0,+0 club) on D:1 on 2010-08-01, with 81 points after 1088 turns and 0:05:39. 17:10:43 Looks like it's stalling on fetching rhf logs again 17:11:14 ,.... 17:11:16 17:11:31 just a general comment regarding felids 17:11:46 joosa: pick up, wait four turns? 17:12:09 or any other keys the imagined cat would hit 17:12:28 ??sixfirhy[3] 17:12:28 sixfirhy[3/3]: 01:27 < timecircuits> sxFR:?)hyyyyyyyy-\- 17:12:44 :-D 17:12:47 ... 17:12:49 heh 17:12:50 ??felid[2] 17:12:50 felid[2/4]: < elliptic> FR: walk on keyboard ability 17:12:50 ??felid[2] 17:12:50 felid[2/4]: < elliptic> FR: walk on keyboard ability 17:12:54 ha 17:34:54 there's a bit in monster::can_wield that prevents non-summoned monsters from wielding summoned weapons 17:35:15 monky: yes, not good? 17:35:55 any idea of if anything would break if I removed it? 17:36:57 for e.g. miscast-generated permabalrugs (which I have so far made unable to give exp but their whips aren't marked as summoned so they drop) 17:37:16 aren't summoned weapons only temporary? 17:37:52 I thought they disappeared when the monster died/unsummoned but I could be wrong 17:38:35 -!- Moriasc has joined ##crawl-dev 17:39:43 monky: yes, this disappearing makes the rule sound useful 17:40:50 monky: what is the point of generating permanent monster which gives no XP? Why not use summon? 17:41:10 galehar: so hell effects, wrath, and some miscasts can't be abjured 17:41:18 currently they give exp and items, which is bad 17:42:39 well, maybe it would be easier to fix abjuration then (which is in need of fixing I guess) 17:42:46 yes, I agree 17:42:55 although it is good in monsters' hands :) 17:43:05 for unabjurable summoned monsters? 17:43:19 and no timeout 17:43:49 miscasts/hell effects/etc permanent monsters do give XP 17:43:53 or very resistant to abjuration and very long timeout 17:44:19 kilobyte: you missed the party! 17:44:34 which, especially for hell where they form a vast majority of threat, is not only good but vital 17:45:28 03aolowin * r5640d515a5f9 10/crawl-ref/source/ (dgn-overview.cc dgn-overview.h): Color annotations in Overview (Mantis #2741, by argonaut). 17:45:29 monky: that check makes sense for Xom, I guess 17:45:39 galehar: figured it out, thanks again :) 17:45:53 your welcome 17:45:57 kilobyte: do you think the xp from them is relevant? 17:46:03 I'd be more afraid of abuse. 17:46:11 * dpeg is always afraid of abuse. 17:46:21 abusing hell effects? 17:46:29 really? 17:47:17 The scope of the scummers is endless. 17:47:40 Well, I'd rather go scum in the abyss... 17:47:51 galehar: only because you can now :) 17:48:06 adding an easy way to handle it (I'm thinking a function that sets MF_NO_REWARD and marks all items as summoned) would also help with new wraths, so it's impossible to e.g. scum tso wrath for holy weapons 17:48:12 if you want greater demons to kill, there's Pan, Abyss, actual hell ends, etc... which come without glow, rot, other nasties 17:48:28 and marking tso wrath summons as summoned would be a pity imo 17:49:06 monky: but wrath only brings summons, no? How could it be scummed? 17:49:13 wrong 17:49:25 only some wrath is summon-exclusive 17:49:26 well it should 17:49:35 that's the proper fix 17:49:37 abjurable wrath is pitiful 17:49:50 I believe that anything potentially infinite is dangerous. Obviously, Pan and Abyss are much worse offenders that hell effects, but if you ask me about hell effects, I'll still reply :) 17:49:53 and make abjuration easier to resist 17:50:08 so easy that it become useless and we can make it a monster spell :) 17:50:08 monky: yes, good point 17:50:19 galehar: some monsters use abjuration 17:50:23 greater mummies, I think 17:50:28 and it is good they do 17:50:45 monster abjuration is embedded in their summ spells 17:50:45 monky: we could make divine summons un-abjurable -- they're divine, after all 17:50:51 well, then just make it a monster spell and call it a day! 17:51:08 hell effect monsters are the vast majority of opposition you fight there, at least 17:51:50 monky: seems like this needs more discussion 17:52:38 permanent no-reward divine wrath monsters mean simply that you have to skip that part of the level 17:52:52 as for abuse, maybe my stance is weird, but I feel funny whenever something that feels like it should be strictly bad (e.g. badly botching a spell, gods wrath, hell effects) gives a nice bonus 17:52:57 kilobyte: which is okay, it's a wrath, after all 17:53:01 regardless of if it's practical to abuse or not 17:53:09 but again, this should be postponed until after wrath is redone 17:53:35 in my proposal, you could only work down wrath with certain actions, one of which (for some gods) would be killing wrath monsters 17:53:41 so they should be summoned, as now 17:53:52 if you flee, you lose another opportunity to reduce wrath 17:54:02 same if you abjure 17:54:38 yes, probably 17:55:09 hell effects and miscasts still stand; should fixing those go in after wrath? 17:55:12 the problem with wrath is mostly the island/boots abuse 17:55:34 kilobyte: my proposal is addressing that 17:55:46 there are more problems anyway 17:56:03 for example that it's often too strong, especially early on, but sometimes (much later) too mild 17:56:08 waiting is bad in any case 17:56:42 dpeg: yeah, so that's why I don't think having permanent monsters be no-xp is good. Wrath should produce either regular summons or regular monsters. 17:56:57 kilobyte: yes, my proposal goes with summons 17:57:06 royal jelly spawns and slaves are permanent and no-exp, for what it's worth 17:57:09 but we should go on with the wrath first 17:57:18 slaves meaning pikel slaves 17:57:20 monky: these are fine, imo 17:57:37 monky: but strictly limited _and_ already counted in RJ/Pikel's exp 17:58:42 are rj spawns strictly limited if you feed it items to heal? 17:59:27 (I haven't searched for a cap) 18:00:25 monky: what would you gain from doing so? 18:00:43 the vault doesn't open until after you kill it, so it's just a matter of you intentionally hurting yourself 18:00:54 like miscasts 18:01:20 the problem with miscasts is that they are used for too many distinct things 18:01:57 dpeg: as long as tame beasts is broken (permanent conversion), it's a boundless source of permanent allies 18:02:15 1. actual miscasts. 2. hell effects. 3. Zot traps. 4. Xom. 5. divine wrath. 6. chaos weapons. 7. glow. 8... 18:02:46 wild magic 18:03:04 i think it's more that they are effects that started out as miscasts and have since been added to other things 18:03:06 monky: good point, but not so much the RJ's fault, imo 18:03:09 but are still called miscasts 18:10:08 I'm testing reskilling, it feels powerful 18:10:20 galehar: yes, I'd think so 18:10:36 I'm in debug mode, I can see the amount of skill points and the XP penalty 18:10:50 -!- syllogism has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:11:13 but when you drain a high level skill to raise a low level, you don't feel like your losing XP 18:11:16 galehar: the piety needed is ***** or ****** ? 18:11:26 5* 18:11:33 there is no power at 6 18:11:43 yes, but could (like a gift) 18:11:47 we had to reorder powers 18:11:52 I saw, which was ok 18:11:57 you mean only once ? 18:12:26 no, I meant that gifts are at ****** piety 18:12:34 example: you transfer from skill A:15 to skill B:1 18:12:41 result both at 11 18:13:08 interesting, so this would perhaps be more useful for averaging out than for peaking... 18:13:26 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 18:13:39 -!- syllogism- has joined ##crawl-dev 18:13:47 -!- syllogism- has quit [Client Quit] 18:14:09 galehar: of course, it is a heavy investment to get to that 15... I am not worried much about balance here. 18:14:37 you cannot generate xp this way 18:14:42 yes, it is mostly because the first skill levels are very cheap 18:14:48 !learn add dpeg I am not worried much about balance here. 18:14:48 dpeg[2/2]: I am not worried much about balance here. 18:14:54 crawl at the moment is designed in such a way that averaging out is better than peaking apart from a few skills 18:15:26 Eronarn: could you please stop that? 18:15:58 dpeg: could you please stop making ash even worse? 18:16:05 galehar: ? 18:16:11 galehar: this plays nice with apts right? e.g. how would your example go if apts for a and b are quite different 18:16:52 I'm just testing with a human, but apt should not give any trouble 18:17:12 is it taking away experience invested? because skills are harder to raise when you have more, right? 18:17:30 it's trivial to train your primary weapon skill but hard to train Fighting, so everyone is going to transfer it that way 18:17:34 because I'm transferring skill points, and apt determine at which point you gain skill levels 18:17:35 even more for magic users 18:17:49 kilobyte: yes, but will you really want to reduce your killing skill? 18:17:57 I think elliptic commented on putting sbl skill into fighting 18:18:01 dpeg: what? fighting is the killing skill 18:18:01 yes 18:18:05 people will want to do exactly that 18:18:08 yes, the actual code does nothing against that. We have to limit transfer to fighting and spellcasting 18:18:14 weapon skill isn't very useful after you reach min delay 18:18:22 galehar: I am not convinced about that. 18:18:23 though that's probably a problem in itself 18:18:28 for example: play a crusader, raise your weapons and ench skill high 18:18:40 once you're able to cast haste, just dump any levels beyond that 18:19:02 I think it's not easy to see what will happen just from speculating over here. 18:19:04 Eronarn: the difference between what you are saying and what happens at the moment is you're wasting piety and some exp for being lazy 18:19:11 well, that's a problem with enchantment, not skills in general 18:19:28 not sure why people would train a skill further than normal just to waste piety and exp transferring it 18:19:31 a lot of skills need changing to play nice with reskilling 18:19:34 galehar: completely backwards 18:19:40 it is a problem with skills in general, not enchantment 18:19:42 monky: why? 18:19:52 there are *lots* of skills where you don't really need them past a certain point 18:19:53 dpeg: a lot are useless after a point for many chars 18:20:02 monky: so you turn them off anyway. 18:20:08 they still go up 18:20:32 casmith789: i don't really call it 'wasting' piety since ash piety isn't really useful for much anyways right now 18:21:05 and XP in a useless skill is worth less than (penalty*XP) in a useful skill 18:21:37 there's also the issue of training up to get certain spells that make the game easier at certain points, then abandoning those skills 18:21:44 the only time they go up a noticeable amount are: primary weapon skill; spell school you are using at the moment but don't want to train (eg a FE casting sticky trying to train something else); high apt skills (which won't transfer as well anyway) 18:21:55 enabled Fighting trains less than disabled weapon skills 18:22:06 Eronarn: the question here is if that is abuse or intended behavior 18:22:27 i don't think you'll ever have an extreme amount of xp in a useless skill, and if you can only reskill a few times you're not going to want to do it unless it's adramatic shift 18:22:29 kilobyte: not if you wield a lump of bread! 18:22:37 monky: i think it's pretty awful if it's intended behavior 18:22:37 :) 18:22:47 Pseudonut: I would expect something similar. 18:22:55 Pseudonut: if you can only reskill a few times, reskilling is going to not add much to the god except for people intent on scumming or doing weird things 18:23:35 Eronarn: sure it is; you found a good book in ice and your earth is not really working out because you found no good transmut books. What do you do? 18:23:44 it's going to make it so fighters sacrifice weapon skill so they can cast haste 18:24:01 haste is being nerfed 18:24:07 hahhahahaahah 18:24:17 great joke 18:24:30 kilobyte suggested that swapping skills is useless (a comment I liked, and I think people here are over-dramatising the effects a lot) 18:25:04 necromancer of ash plans to convert to TSO, converts a huge amount of necro skill into other useful skills that are hard to train (invoc, fighting, etc) and then switches 18:25:26 is this desired behavior? I'm not sure, since I don't understand the point of reskilling from a design perspective 18:25:56 elliptic: it is the kind of strategic freedom Ash gives, yes. But it comes at a price... 18:26:04 dpeg: what price? 18:26:18 the price of worshiping a better designed god 18:26:53 casmith789: change of god, piety gain, A conduct 18:26:54 elliptic: personally i think god-with-invo => ash will be funny 18:27:05 plus some xp loss in the transfer 18:27:26 ah yes, I forgot wrath was being redone, it makes more sense if the new wraths are more relevant 18:27:48 casmith789: there'll be _two_ conversions in elliptic's process 18:27:49 dpeg: cut out all those three if you're just dumping nec for something else for extended without switching 18:27:59 of course, elliptic is the master of god-switching 18:28:01 dpeg: maybe only one, if you start with ash 18:28:05 dpeg: huh? he only switched once 18:28:06 and what? no I'm not 18:28:08 elliptic: sure sure 18:28:13 monky: haha i didn't even think of that 18:28:21 I've never switched gods more than two or three times in a game 18:28:22 elliptic: aren't you doing those wonderful zig runs? :) 18:28:26 no 18:28:34 those zig runs were zigrobin 18:28:36 zigrobin? that was a lot of people 18:28:45 a few of us did zigs under 4-5 god wraths 18:29:13 i did my tournament zig under like 11 18:29:19 :D 18:29:24 !lm * type=god.worship s=game_id 18:30:01 Okay, should I apologise to elliptic, zigrobin, or the gods? 18:30:07 could also do naen, do stealth early game, later game dump all your ench above what you need for haste + your stealth and instantly learn iood or something 18:30:14 dpeg: :) 18:30:28 * dpeg apologises to the public. 18:30:47 51336 milestones for * (type=god.worship): , 17x 775784, 15x 334751, 14x 739619, 13x 748279, 13x 760898, 13x 731378, 12x 337959, 12x 779811, 12x 348869, 12x 323902, 12x 746596, 11x 738219, 11x 815744, 10x 528736, 10x 743478, 10x 330593, 9x 736260, 9x 316299, 9x 798924, 9x 732508, 9x 724249, 8x 786122, 7x 822335, 7x 655548, 7x 513777, 7x 670074, 7x 528190, 7x 338701, 6x 348385, 6x 524899, 6x 732245... 18:31:20 there are plenty of examples of chars who would benefit a lot from reskilling... I don't think it is that big a deal, but I also don't think it would be good if switching to ash lategame just for reskilling became common 18:31:40 Pseudonut: currently, multiple wraths are no worse than one if you don't intend to wait them out 18:32:03 well, yeah, but... 18:32:06 :( 18:32:11 yup, multiple wraths are fine really, you just have to deal with more varied effects 18:32:11 kilobyte: well, you have to be prepared for more different things 18:32:15 elliptic: I thought that's the appeal of the reskilling power: everyone can profit from a little skill tuning. But how much are you going to give up for this? 18:32:37 elliptic: i think moreso than anything to do with balance, it's a boring choice to make, even if reskilling benefits you 18:32:51 I'll try to get the wrath overhaul into 0.8. Which means to ask bmh about the status quo :) 18:32:55 What if you could you reskill only skill gained under Ash...? 18:33:05 the only time you'll get excited over reskilling is if you're using skill A to do a branch on easymode, then abandoning it completely 18:33:15 Moriasc: an optional nerf in case things go out of hand 18:33:15 Moriasc: how do you track that 18:33:16 in favor of skill B that would otherwise be really hard to train 18:33:31 *shrugs* Computers can do everything. 18:33:37 The reskilling can be nerfed in a number of ways, but I'd first like to see what players are actually going to do with it. 18:33:40 Moriasc: :) 18:33:54 Moriasc: I've got some unsolved math problems on my desk... 18:34:09 a lot of the reskilling usages were already discussed here, for what it's worth 18:35:01 monky: yes, do you think it's too bad already? 18:35:25 monky: how many of them were compelling choices that would be fun for players to make or otherwise add value to the game 18:35:38 dpeg: I was waiting to be pilloried, really, saying that in a dev channel. 18:36:05 * dpeg builds a skyhigh pillar after Moriasc. 18:36:09 dpeg: I don't really know how to judge that, but honestly it feels a bit odd 18:36:12 You're never trying to train skills you don't want. (There may be edge cases which fall under "bug" or "bad design".) Therefore, reskilling always means you lose something that was useful to you. 18:36:24 monky: we can only find out by playing some more. 18:36:26 Eronarn: oh right that. yeah I guess I have to agree 18:36:35 Eronarn: though fixing skills is a better solution 18:36:44 Eronarn: if less practical 18:36:57 dpeg: that isn't quite true, as people have already explained 18:37:11 getting more weapon skill than you have any real use for is very common 18:37:17 even with it turned off 18:37:43 I don't think you can call that an edge case 18:37:52 monky: yeah, just like how we'll fix haste so that it's not broken to be able to instaskill up to cast haste, am i rite 18:37:54 and ench, especially so for high-ench races 18:38:13 elliptic: so you throw some away? So what? 18:38:22 How low will you go with the skill? 18:38:43 -!- casmith789 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:38:57 dpeg: I'd go to weapon minimum delay, and maybe 0 for sbl on a pure stabber or lbl user. weapon skills are weird. 18:38:59 -!- casmith789 has joined ##crawl-dev 18:39:09 dpeg: if I am using a demon whip or other comparably fast weapon (katana, say), I have no desire for skill above 12 18:39:21 and short blades, even lower 18:39:22 dumping excess ench would be a good use of the ability. But this will probably change when ench is fixed/split 18:39:28 if you're using blade hands, any tmut above like 8 is a waste 18:39:36 huh? why 18:39:40 this isn't a problem, just an observation that sometimes you really do get more skill than you want 18:39:49 casmith789: so you get one or two reskillings from using a weapon with Ash. Okay! That's not going to buy you much Fighting or Spc. 18:39:59 these options require intimate knowledge of how skills work, which isn't really available to the average player, so i'm not sure a lot of people can make that decision 18:40:12 why was that targetted at me? :( 18:40:17 elliptic: yes, I agree. We will use Ash followers are test guinea pigs for skill optimisation. 18:40:18 Pseudonut: just wait until the questions roll in about how much XP a troll necromancer of ash will get if he converts it to unarmed 18:40:20 -!- Twinge has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:40:21 casmith789: sorry 18:40:29 was to elliptic 18:40:32 or vice versa! 18:40:33 aha 18:40:46 or heck, even just 11 skill to 7 skill on a human 18:40:47 Pseudonut: also, I don't think it is necessary 18:40:59 you can make use of the power on a much more naive level 18:41:16 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 18:41:39 a side note: before reskilling came along, I thought everyone thought of min-maxing/powergaming as detestable 18:41:41 yeah i guess the same could be said about when to turn skills off 18:42:08 monky: complaining about that just isn't fashionable anymore 18:42:09 getting rid of the few skills you learned in the early game and don't use anymore is a good use of the ability (from both a player and a designer pov). But its use is limited. You don't get a lot a skill points from the low level skills. 18:42:10 people already don't know when to turn skills off... one of the most common questions that people ask 18:42:14 monky: yes yes. Only that some foul folks don't follow :) 18:42:31 dpeg! i've been away on break for awhile 18:42:38 Pacra! 18:42:41 but I haven't forgotten your glutton-messages 18:42:45 Pacra: all hell broke loose over here :) 18:42:45 i wrote them down 18:42:47 dpeg: what do you mean? 18:42:48 so in other news, someone code my proposal 18:42:49 Pacra: hey, cool 18:42:59 dpeg: hell broke lose!! how so 18:43:05 hi ero 18:43:10 sup Pacra 18:43:42 using it on high level skill you have no use of is powerful (lots of skill points). But maybe the solution is to make all high level skill usefuel. 18:45:01 galehar: it is hilarious to me that you tried to defend yourself as not committed to this idea and are now suggesting that maybe the problem isn't with ash reskilling, but just the entire rest of the game 18:45:08 galehar: I had that idea too, but then I remembered an abjuration user, for example, won't need summ over 8 or so 18:45:44 galehar: also, necromancy needn't be over borg/regen/sublimation/dispel levels for a non-lichformer in extended endgame 18:46:26 I can't imagine how a skill overhaul would address low/mid-level things 18:46:33 I am a firm believer in all skills are best at about 10-12. Any more and they're not that worth it 18:46:52 a couple of exceptions, of course, but that's mainly true 18:47:14 also: someone using short blades only for a brand, like pain or distortion has little desire for extra damage from them, if sbl skill ends up providing more damage 18:47:56 kobolds and halflings gain sbl very quickly even with it turned off 18:48:32 casmith789: there are certain big classes (like any lev8-9 spell, or uber-delay weapons), but otherwise, you're right 18:50:04 kilobyte: yep, but also add into the equation that high level (level 8-9 spells) aren't really very good compared to a variety of level 4-6 spells for a normal 3 runer, and one handed weapons are more than adequate. 18:50:58 level 8-9 spells are too hard to cast, even allruning I usually don't make it to them 18:51:47 level 8 is easy enough on an allruner if you have decent apts and wizardry 18:51:54 dunno about level 9 though 18:52:10 you can get to level 9 spells if you really want to but you have to spend the whole game aiming for them 18:52:35 you can get lichform, lcs and firestorm all castable at 15 runer 18:52:52 felirx: you can get all skills maxed in a 15-runer 18:52:56 I meant without spending the whole game aiming, by the way 18:52:58 you get storm somewhere around vault 8 18:52:59 it might take a while, but you can do it 18:53:03 and lichform at around zot5 18:53:12 but yes, you need to aim and purposefully go for them 18:53:14 this is DE of vehumet I assume? 18:53:16 ds 18:53:21 of sif 18:53:22 felirx: what? you get firestorm around V:8? do you only play DEFE of vehumet? 18:53:32 firestorm was on defe of vehu true 18:53:42 DS of sif had nowhere close on icestorm by vault 8 18:53:43 getting storm by v:8 sounds really hard on anything other than DEFE of veh, yes 18:53:52 kefe of veh 18:53:52 or "nowhere" 18:54:07 and lichform isn't actually good for much in zot:5 :) 18:54:22 actually I just use the zot1->5 exp to dance transmutation :D 18:54:29 lichform: useless for 3rune, mandatory in extended 18:54:36 not mandatory 18:54:39 so ok, for some playstyle, reaching a certain level is preferable. So maybe the problem is that you are forced past this level. And then using Ash reskill to get rid of the excess is a no-brainer. What is the solution is to add /8 or >/dev/null to the m screen? 18:54:39 I k now 18:54:41 nowhere mandatory 18:54:48 not even close to mandatory :) 18:54:51 but I haven't yet done it without it 18:54:59 galehar: sounds good to me 18:55:02 air, enchants etc are wery well served by left them at around 12 18:56:17 broken english is broken 18:56:30 galehar: what do you mean? 18:58:00 being able to put an 8 divider to skills instead of 4 or completely disable them 18:58:21 ah 18:58:32 what was the reason to have /4 originally? 18:59:23 I think /4 was in old vanilla crawl 19:01:32 My point is that it's not enough 19:01:45 anyway 19:01:58 its been quiet here 19:02:44 it's time we have something to talk about... 19:02:59 03galehar * r56b72069a5cc 10/crawl-ref/source/ (godabil.cc skills.cc skills.h): Ash transfer knowledge ability 19:03:53 rant rant rant rant 19:06:16 uhm, an infinite loop 19:06:48 -!- Mu_ has quit [Quit: Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place.] 19:07:38 kenku with all skills at 15: trying to convert all LBl into Fighting worked until the last step 19:08:11 -!- casmith_789 has joined ##crawl-dev 19:09:00 -!- casmith789 has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:09:14 -!- casmith_789 is now known as casmith789 19:12:30 valrus_> but I haven't yet done it without it 19:12:37 i've never gotten lichform for an allruner 19:12:50 I've only allruned... twice? 19:13:03 oh wait 19:13:17 the first was a ghoul, so everything I've said about this was a lie 19:14:03 back, daughter is sick 19:14:04 galehar: are you debugging it, or should I? 19:14:38 kilobyte: I can't reproduce. I just tried it worked. 19:14:43 need more tests 19:16:06 yep, seem to be a problem with very low level skill, I'll look into it. 19:17:27 galehar: the fact that turning off skills does not enough (at higher skills) is known. 19:17:49 well, let's do something about it 19:18:20 galehar: I guess a sensible formula making the effect stronger with higher skill would do? 19:20:37 hmmm, that's interesting 19:20:39 Zaba: they will be for awesome 19:20:48 due: hi! 19:21:18 galehar: you.skill_points[SK_LONG_BLADES] is 4294966977 19:21:50 42!!! 19:22:16 almost 2^32 19:22:20 but not quite 19:22:32 kilobyte: thanks, I think I know the problem 19:22:36 fixing it 19:45:58 -!- elliptic has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:51:44 03galehar * rc9c63956a8bc 10/crawl-ref/source/ (godabil.cc skills.cc): fix reducing a skill below 0 in the new skill functions 19:51:49 -!- galehar has quit [Quit: bedtime] 19:56:03 -!- dpeg has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:57:25 -!- Pseudonut has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:57:30 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 20:06:04 dpeg: what about blue_anna's "fruiting_plant" vaults? I'm salvaging parts of Dwarf, and it has a dependency on those -- if we keep that subvault, we need to decide if they are to be included globally or just there. 20:07:11 kilobyte: damn, I flaked at reviewing his des file :O 20:07:19 Should I look at it now? 20:07:56 I can't seem to find them at Mantis 20:08:14 http://sprunge.us/Zefb 20:09:32 they're okay 20:09:44 a tad graphical, but the vaults can be used for Lair 20:09:53 perhaps the weights may be lower than 10 20:10:38 sure 20:10:47 should I move them over now? 20:11:05 what about the "fruiting_plant" tag? 20:11:18 the tag is for subvaults 20:11:29 ah, I see 20:11:30 I see no reason to have the name as tags, though 20:11:51 okay, so I move over and adapt? 20:12:22 -!- syllogism has quit [] 20:13:10 kilobyte: btw, would you be okay with removing Ash's xp gain or would you rather wait with that? (The reason being that skill changing is enough to do with xp/skills.) 20:13:51 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:13:58 that's currently 90% of what the god is good for, though 20:14:10 kilobyte: really? Does not sound good :) 20:14:25 all the detection is nice and flavourful, but hardly gives an advantage in most cases 20:14:41 it reminds me a bit of my last-minute stat boost for Che... strong and universally useful, but not optimal design 20:15:11 kilobyte: but we'll make at an advantage... if A gives away monster letters at high enough piety, that'd be extremely strong 20:15:45 heck, we can also leave the xp gain in... it is just less visible than I'd like 20:15:58 And regarding monster detection via glyph, one problem occurred to me: tiles. Not sure how did they do it back when we had the spells 20:16:19 kilobyte: still waiting for final order on blue_anna's vaults =) 20:17:14 hey, it's all _your_ decision. It's just a single vault that depends on them, and if there are any problems, it can use private subvaults or go away. 20:17:30 ok 20:17:40 I am also happy whenever I don't have to decide :) 20:17:45 you want them? They go in. You don't? They don't. 20:18:04 03dolorous * rf5d102f48b10 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-cast.cc: Fix indentation. 20:18:05 being the project leader means we get to shove decisions onto you :p 20:18:05 decisions, decisions ... make my head hurt 20:18:06 03dolorous * r1be578e62fcc 10/crawl-ref/source/godabil.cc: Fix inconsistencies in spellbook-burning messages. 20:18:20 * dpeg collapses under a load of 2^10 decisions 20:19:02 you could also not leave the ash xp boost in, that would be cool(er) 20:21:17 03dolorous * r3f965fc81698 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-cast.cc: Fix inconsistencies in monster spellbook-burning messages. 20:25:43 Is that ^ as in xor or ^ as in power? :D 20:25:55 Zao: your bet :) 20:36:01 03dpeg * rd93f7375fa2e 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/branches/lair.des: Add blue_anna's fruit vaults. 20:36:11 damn, forgot a comment 20:37:46 03dpeg * rc0f1ffff5bbb 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/branches/lair.des: Add comment to fruit vaults. 20:54:58 kilobyte: astral vision in labs and Abyss is fine 20:57:30 03kilobyte * rb61ec8702510 10/crawl-ref/source/dgn-overview.cc: Purge some unneeded braces. 20:57:31 03kilobyte * r201b6c284387 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/branches/dwarf.des: Fix the DHFH alchemist cottage. 20:57:32 03kilobyte * r9cf917a1bd82 10/crawl-ref/source/ (11 files in 3 dirs): Remove monsters: witch, evil witch, forest witch, huldra, trollkonor. 20:58:52 cleaning up = awesome 20:58:55 yaaay 21:00:43 not sure what to do with dwarf.des, as there can't be two vaults with the same name. I can either 1. use something unique for the pieces I pick, 2. disable loading of dwarf.des, or 3. remove it altogether 21:01:10 You have looked at it... what's your opinion? 21:01:11 We're removing monsters? 21:01:16 due: :) 21:01:27 due: not all monsters are good 21:01:29 I'm going to work on leeches when I get home. :D 21:01:38 And then sky beasts are going to be LIGHTCYA "I". 21:01:39 For example, monsters who don't kill enough. 21:01:55 They will fly and have an electric attack and possibly trail rain clouds. 21:02:13 And I have every intention of making them show up at the same time as ice beasts do. 21:02:46 good... standout flavour + new code + new threat = good! 21:03:00 Yeah. 21:03:14 I'm thinking of replacing one of the boring rats with porcupines. 21:03:45 due: <3 21:03:56 dpeg: it's mostly a matter of what to do with blue_anna. Removing the file altogether would have a bad effect _if he returns_. 21:03:58 should players be able to open doors while step from time is active? 21:04:04 that's okay in principle, but needs some additional care because some vaults assume those are rats, and some monsters may tooß 21:04:14 !seen blue_anna 21:04:14 I last saw blue_anna at Thu Sep 23 23:51:01 2010 UTC (4w 1d 2h 13m 13s ago) quitting with message Quit: Saliendo. 21:04:22 remove quokkas; grey rats => quokkas; replace green rats with porcupines 21:04:47 kilobyte: that's right. Leave it in, it won't do any harm. (Not much of des rot in a separate file.) 21:04:55 Eronarn: Soimething like that is entirely possible. 21:04:59 @??grey rat 21:05:00 grey rat (15r) | Speed: 12 | HD: 1 | Health: 3-9 | AC/EV: 2/12 | Damage: 5 | Res: 06magic(4) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 4. 21:05:01 @??green rat 21:05:01 green rat (09r) | Speed: 10 | HD: 2 | Health: 6-16 | AC/EV: 5/11 | Damage: 10 | Res: 06magic(8) | Chunks: 09poisonous | XP: 13. 21:05:06 due: we did something like this with giant lizards and iguanas 21:05:13 i forget exactly how that one ended up 21:05:13 Eronarn: Yes, I did. 21:05:21 I replaced giant lizards with crocodiles. 21:05:25 And nuked "giant" in iguana. 21:05:34 valrus_: someone approached me to completely redo step from time, which would be very cool 21:05:37 crocs are still really similar to iguanas though 21:05:39 let's add "fluffy bunnies" 21:05:45 (of Caerbannog) 21:05:48 due: could make them into chameleons :D 21:05:48 TGWi: at least they're more interesting in glyph 21:05:52 dpeg: ? 21:06:16 valrus_: why ? ? 21:06:31 I am currently in the process of trying to completely redo step from time 21:06:40 valrus_: oh. Sorry. 21:06:56 * dpeg has a problem of mappings names to nicks. Sorry. 21:07:16 ok, as long as it was me :P 21:07:49 valrus_: yes, it's you! 21:07:56 so... doors y/n? 21:08:07 !tell valrus_ Where's the new Step From Time? Chop chop! :) 21:08:08 dpeg: OK, I'll let valrus_ know. 21:08:13 :( 21:08:13 valrus_: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 21:08:22 ;) 21:08:27 valrus_: hey, just joking 21:08:48 valrus_: the idea is that the player can move, but not change anything, right? (Like pickup, drop, attack.) 21:09:03 sounds right 21:09:19 so that would mean no doors... 21:09:22 also if they could open doors they could bypass the possible stealth hit 21:09:26 yes 21:10:17 should I disallow resting as there will be no reason whatsoever to do it 21:10:48 yes 21:11:10 perhaps also disallow automated travel? (This is double-edged.) 21:11:33 Sounds a bit odd to involve UI features in a spell. 21:11:41 I think so, in most cases where it's actually useful that would torpedo piety 21:11:46 -!- Pseudonut has joined ##crawl-dev 21:11:57 Zao: think berserk 21:12:38 valrus_: ah, that reminds me... the new step from time should be graphically very different, just like berserk... i.e. everything in a different colour to make clear it's emergency mode 21:12:50 already done 21:12:58 <3 21:13:01 valrus_: what colour? 21:13:07 light blue 21:13:18 valrus_: I am really impressed. 21:13:42 shucks :) 21:14:14 03dolorous * r4a351eb9d53c 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-cast.cc: Move monster Burn Spellbook to its own function. 21:14:14 03dolorous * r658faf7d33a5 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-cast.cc: Remove non-applicable god channel usage in monster Burn Spellbook. 21:14:14 03dolorous * r9ce1487463b3 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-cast.cc: Reorganize logic in monster Burn Spellbook to match the player version. 21:14:26 03dolorous * rf09476f0e237 10/crawl-ref/source/godabil.cc: Set rarity for player Burn Spellbook rarity setting a bit later. 21:14:29 !tell greensnark I officially support a valrus monster. And a greater valrus, warvalrus and Wally, the rusty valrus unique. 21:14:30 dpeg: OK, I'll let greensnark know. 21:14:40 03dolorous * r168c58c7100e 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-cast.cc: Only cast monster Burn Spellbook if it will actually burn something. 21:14:50 siiiiiiiiiiiiiiick 21:15:08 Monster burn spellbook? 21:16:08 due: can never go wrong with burning books. 21:19:20 -!- Pseudonut has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:20:19 does snorg cast that? 21:20:24 or is it unused now 21:20:58 and trog ghosts! 21:21:14 deep dwarf berserkers 21:21:26 but it will be good for ghosts anyway, yes 21:21:41 is snorg officially an atheist? 21:21:51 probably 21:22:10 we're not at the point where we can give gods to monsters (except as an artificial flag) 21:22:30 well, what's his face is "officially" an oka worhsipper 21:22:32 wayne? 21:22:36 !source dat/database/monspeak.txt 21:22:37 wiglaf 21:22:37 wiglaf 21:22:39 Lines pasted to http://paste.scsys.co.uk/53924 21:22:52 razza frazza 21:22:52 snorg doesn't talk? 21:22:52 qiglaf 21:23:01 * valrus_ needs to start playing 0.8 21:23:03 Snorg smash! 21:23:08 SNOOORG 21:23:09 -!- Kurper has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:23:23 snorg speech would be nice 21:23:37 TGWi: snorg should talk like a southern gentleman 21:23:39 just send some over 21:23:50 "SNOO...OOORG" with d9 O's in the middle 21:24:07 ANITA 21:24:11 sorear: <3 21:24:26 -!- Pseudonut has joined ##crawl-dev 21:25:00 sorear: is there a link between snorg and anita? 21:25:45 Snorg was named Anita in some very early versions 21:25:47 -!- enne has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:25:54 didn't know... 21:35:50 03dolorous * rb2d18c0ebe66 10/crawl-ref/source/godabil.cc: Fix unused variable. 21:35:51 03dolorous * r893ffd0d1cca 10/crawl-ref/source/godabil.cc: Add punctuation fixes. 21:37:09 03dolorous * r6abdd1dcc591 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-pick.cc: Add missing blank lines. 21:44:37 -!- enne has joined ##crawl-dev 21:53:32 -!- kilobyte has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:53:40 -!- kilobyte has joined ##crawl-dev 21:54:19 -!- dpeg has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:54:24 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 22:02:25 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:13:33 -!- upsy has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:39:42 03due * r6a783b2fff1a 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-info.cc: Mention withdrawn in more places. 22:57:35 -!- valrus_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:16:41 -!- Wensley_ has joined ##crawl-dev 23:17:01 -!- Wensley has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:17:03 -!- Wensley_ is now known as Wensley 23:17:07 -!- eith has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:31:32 Windows development builds on CDO updated to: 0.8.0-a0-2165-g6a783b2 23:36:49 -!- TGWi has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:47:31 -!- Moriasc has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:52:28 -!- Pacra has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]