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01:36:24 <Lys> hi there, anyone in?
01:37:29 <sorear> no
01:37:45 <sorear> you'll need to post your question and wait a few hours
01:37:59 <Lys> oh ok
01:39:49 <Lys> Question: playing windows tiled version of crawl, I think its the most up to date, I don't think it matters though- 2 part question, is the morgue dump when my characters die supposed to have the kill list off by default as I never see it when I die, and if so/not, how can I turn it on? Have asked in main #crawl room but no one has been able to help me
01:45:28 <Giomancer> Well
01:45:53 <Giomancer> Have you checked out init.txt in the settings folder?
01:46:12 <Lys> yeah
01:47:13 <Giomancer> Is kills.lua cummented out?
01:47:19 <Giomancer> commented*
01:47:27 <Giomancer> I think that's the one.
01:47:59 <Lys> hmm
01:48:02 <Lys> lemme check
01:50:13 <Lys> "lua_file = lua/kills.lua"
01:50:15 <Lys> is that the one?
01:50:18 <Lys> it's not commented out
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01:58:32 <Giomancer> hm
01:59:52 <due> hi
01:59:56 <Giomancer> due!
02:00:24 <due> Lys: I really should know the answer to it, but I can't remember. Napkin is possibly the best person to ask.
02:00:31 <sorear> has anyone seen Twinge lately?
02:00:48 <Lys> heh, ok thanks due
02:00:50 <due> sorear: Did they not switch to Twilight?
02:01:13 <due> Or is this someone else entirely?
02:01:16 <sorear> /whois Twilight-1 says JD Peterson
02:01:24 <sorear> Twinge is, and always has been, Jared Tinney
02:01:35 <due> Hm.
02:03:33 <Zannick> he shows up in my lastlog
02:03:36 <Zannick> !seen Twinge
02:03:36 <Henzell> I last saw Twinge at Thu Oct 14 09:22:22 2010 UTC (21h 41m 14s ago) quitting without a message.
02:06:46 * Giomancer jabs due
02:07:16 <Giomancer> due, you still doing anything IF related?
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02:13:53 <due> Giomancer: Yes but not right now.
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02:22:15 <Giomancer> Ah
02:22:25 <Giomancer> Well, I didn't mean this minute. :p
02:26:07 <kilobyte> ROTFL: >>>>>>> There's no quick and simple fix, because summoners are not simple. It would be a waste to post a longer analysis //here// where [[user:doy]] can censor it. I'll post one on rec.games.roguelike.misc one day.  --- //[[user:b0rsuk]]
02:27:00 <syllogism> someone on SA did a 15 runer felid but also used 9 lives (but still had 2 left??)
02:27:57 <kilobyte> you get them for exp thresholds, not necessarily actual levels
02:28:10 <kilobyte> was that after or before nerf?
02:28:32 <due> LOL.
02:28:37 <kilobyte> with the frequency of Windows binary updates on CDO, I guess before
02:29:03 <due> b0rsuk dislikes doy? I did not know this.
02:29:07 <syllogism> he played offline
02:29:26 <monky> b0rsuk whined about dpeg and doy deleted it
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02:30:30 <due> LOL.
02:30:39 <due> We have a tendency to do these things.
02:31:23 <kilobyte> there are people merely severely unhinged, like me, due or sorear... but there are folks who transcend ordinary insanity
02:32:06 <Giomancer> hm
02:32:17 <sorear> you flatter me, kilobyte
02:32:28 <Giomancer> kilobyte, I've never noticed you being unhinged
02:33:19 <kilobyte> Giomancer: dammit, I'm not trying enough then :p
02:33:27 <due> unhinged? i like that one.
02:33:37 <Giomancer> Hey, just sayin!
02:34:53 <Napkin> Moin!
02:34:56 <Napkin> What's up?
02:35:08 <due> Napkin, do you know what setting has to be enabled for the kills tracker?
02:35:52 <sorear> Giomancer: you're talking to the guy who rewrote ipbt while porting it to Windows, and implemented felids
02:36:02 <Napkin> andre has bl0wj0b.
02:36:02 <Napkin> bleistik has g1ggl3.
02:36:02 <Napkin> kfusswin has Hurr4.
02:36:02 <Napkin> mthoben has f1ck3n.
02:36:11 <Napkin> oops, lol, damn windows :D
02:36:14 <Napkin> ---
02:36:14 <Napkin> # kills.lua yields more information at the cost of huge dumps.
02:36:14 <Napkin> # lua_file = lua/kills.lua
02:36:16 <Napkin> --
02:36:21 <kilobyte> I see it's disabled in the default config
02:36:31 <Napkin> I would guess too, that it's kills.lua
02:36:35 <due> Hm.
02:36:48 <due> kilobyte is totally crazy, sure.
02:36:50 * Giomancer was right, then. Ha!
02:37:03 <Napkin> !coffee
02:37:03 * Henzell hands Napkin a mug of irish coffee, brewed by Nikola.
02:37:17 <due> I'm not at all crazy.
02:37:30 <Giomancer> ehhh
02:37:40 <Giomancer> I had proof on my other HDD
02:37:42 <due> Not at ... all.
02:37:46 <Napkin> not especially more than the rest of us, dueking ;)
02:37:46 <due> shut up :|
02:37:49 <Giomancer> haha
02:38:11 <due> If I say I'm crazy that means I'm not so I'm crazy.
02:38:22 <kilobyte> ...
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02:39:17 <due> I'm not!
02:39:18 <due> honest.
02:39:21 <bmh> you are!
02:39:25 <due> :|
02:39:29 <due> I'm so depressed :(
02:39:36 <kilobyte> Napking: did you consider running those Windows binary builds from a cronjob?
02:39:37 <due> fine, okay, I'm crazy, you all win, I'll leavenow.
02:39:47 <due> If only to shut ortolson up.
02:39:51 <kilobyte> er... why?
02:40:00 <kilobyte> sane people are boring
02:40:07 <kilobyte> we don't want Crawl to be a boring game
02:40:08 <bmh> I just got here, I have no idea what's going on
02:40:11 <kilobyte> thus, you're needed
02:40:13 <Napkin> hehehe
02:40:14 <due> okay
02:40:29 <due> I really feel like implementing a "Dreaming" spell.
02:40:48 <Napkin> not sure I have adjusted the mingw scripts yet to check for errorlevels
02:41:23 <kilobyte> at least make works as if it had set -e
02:41:27 <sorear> so apparently our friend Moult from the other day, settled on a VPS that bans IRC bots in the AUP
02:41:45 <sorear> for hosting a rogue server
02:41:51 <Napkin> oh, it has set -e already
02:41:55 <bmh> ouch.
02:42:01 <bmh> what a shitty service
02:42:09 <bmh> I use Linode and I'm very happy with them
02:42:23 <bmh> (and someone keeps using my affiliate link that I once posted on reddit so I haven't paid in four months)
02:43:03 <sorear> the server (not the hosting) is a very untraditional roguelike system
02:43:09 <Napkin> erm, CDO's provider prohibits irc server/bouncer/clients too - so what?
02:43:18 <sorear> Napkin: Gretell
02:43:30 <bmh> how beefy is the box hosting CDO?
02:43:31 <Napkin> I think Gretell and me are doing fine here ;)
02:43:33 <bmh> I remember Rax saying that CAO is a storage monster
02:43:35 <Napkin> test 123? ;D
02:44:02 <kilobyte> bmh: it's mostly because she never deletes ttyrecs
02:44:12 <sorear> Napkin: this one only prohibits bots on public servers, and public servers
02:44:20 <sorear> bouncers, clients, and private servers are fine
02:44:51 <Napkin> see, not as worse as ip-systems.de - which i use for CDO
02:45:02 <sorear> anyways, who is likely to be interested? rax, Napkin, paxed, others?
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02:45:33 <kilobyte> hah!  So now we know bmh's s3kr1t IP.
02:45:34 <Napkin> their firewall actively drops tcp port 6667-6670
02:45:39 <bmh> uh oh.
02:45:46 <kilobyte> heh
02:45:48 <gamefreak264> monky:  A whip of pain from Pikel and a book with necromancy spells
02:45:53 <bmh> I live in London. Come find me.
02:45:57 <monky> gamefreak264: wrong channel bro
02:46:04 <Napkin> interested in what, sorear?
02:46:18 <sorear> Napkin: the very untraditional roguelike server
02:46:19 <bmh> Napkin: using crawl as a gateway drug so we can sell crack to kids.
02:46:41 <sorear> Napkin: how are you sneaking Gretell past them, ooc?
02:46:58 <Napkin> sorear: don't understand yet... you talking about an alternative for DGL?
02:47:06 <gamefreak264> Now I've got more options :P
02:47:06 <gamefreak264> I'm going to keep using my whip of elec for a while, though
02:47:07 <gamefreak264> my necro skills are kinda sucky atm
02:47:11 <bmh> DGL?
02:47:22 <monky> gamefreak264: still wrong channel
02:47:25 <Napkin> kornbluth.freenode.net 7070  FreeNode   (pass), autoconnect, ssl, sorear ;)
02:47:26 <sorear> Napkin: I'm talking about a server which doesn't use DGL and works in an entirely different way
02:47:30 <Napkin> bless ssl!
02:47:52 <Napkin> of course I'm interested
02:47:56 <kilobyte> sorear: I think HEH works without DGL
02:48:16 <Napkin> as haxy as heh.fi?
02:48:25 <kilobyte> but it's "thinks" not "am sure"
02:48:29 <sorear> well, AncardiaOne didn't use DGL either
02:48:30 <kilobyte> s/think/thinks/
02:48:37 <sorear> and was ludicrously hacking
02:48:40 <sorear> hacky
02:48:47 <kilobyte> it's not that hard to write a replacement
02:48:49 <sorear> (I mean, seriously.  IT WAS BUILT ON PTRACE)
02:49:20 <Napkin> it is hard, kilobyte - since nobody wants to ;)
02:49:32 <Napkin> that's the biggest difficulty
02:49:38 <sorear> the new one is a lot less hacky, and was built by somebody with little programming or roguelike community experience
02:49:43 <sorear> to start - no accountsd
02:49:49 <bmh> do felids have a life counter in the ui?
02:49:49 <gamefreak264> monky:  Hello?
02:49:54 <bmh> gamefreak264: wrong channel.
02:49:56 <kilobyte> bmh: %
02:50:05 <bmh> kilobyte: ah-ha! I missed it
02:50:11 <sorear> you can start a game, you enter a secret key so nobody else can resume if you save, but you don't have an account
02:50:21 <Napkin> sorear: please link me if you have further info where i can read up on it
02:50:45 <Napkin> free choice of name is bad for stats
02:50:57 <Napkin> i would think so, at least
02:50:58 <bmh> sorear: What's the advantage of that? Having a secret key seems equivalent to having an account.
02:51:01 <Napkin> anyways... coffee!
02:51:18 <sorear> bmh: the server doesn't store *any* data between games
02:51:29 <sorear> you can use different keys every game if you want
02:51:40 <sorear> there are no statistics, and this is called a design choice
02:51:40 <bmh> sorear: How much overhead is there in maintaining users?
02:51:54 <sorear> bmh: None, because there aren't any persistant users.
02:51:58 <sorear> There are only games.
02:52:04 <bmh> sorear: I meant normally
02:52:54 <sorear> ancardiaone really went overboard, each user required a UID plus an ever-increasing amount of space
02:55:20 <sorear> ancardiaone eventually went to fusecompress to make the 200GB /var last longer
02:56:03 <sorear> (it also had access to a >10TB university cloud mount back in 2008, but we didn't use that for ADOM.  *envy*)
03:17:21 <Napkin> well, the problem with /var space used is scary, sorear
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03:17:57 <Napkin> CDO doesn't have such a huge player base, yet there are a lot of old saves, some more than 8 months old
03:18:24 <sorear> are the saves themselves much of an issue
03:18:37 <sorear> I don't think I've ever seen a Crawl save larger than 10MB
03:19:46 <Napkin> no, that was independent of space - rather a maintenance problem
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03:20:18 <Napkin> of course, ttyrecs take the most space
03:21:45 <due> seeing themannoys me
03:22:02 <due> I grumble and go "grrr why can't these people diealready"
03:22:07 <due> this makes me a bad person
03:22:18 <kilobyte> who do you mean?
03:22:33 <due> kilobyte: old saves
03:23:02 <sorear> I suspect Moult will time out saves, or move them to an archive area or something
03:23:12 <sorear> there are definitely no ttyrecs
03:23:14 <kilobyte> I bet most of them are on D:1 from people who just wanted to take a look
03:23:34 <due> I've killed a lotof the "D:1, no turns" saves.
03:23:37 * due whistles innocently.
03:23:56 <sorear> idea: if turns <= 1000, store save as seed + key log
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03:25:53 <kilobyte> that would be a good idea in general: you'd be able to effectively save every keypress
03:26:36 <kilobyte> however, doing that by recording actual keys pressed would hurt the client-server project, and be of course not portable beyond current console
03:27:26 <kilobyte> if we abstract the orders you issue somehow, that would both fix the repeat command problems and allow for sane journaling
03:28:56 <Napkin> thanks, due :))
03:29:01 <Napkin> I love working with you! :D
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03:37:07 <Lys> napkin!
03:37:19 <Lys> I hear you're the man to speak to regarding a problem I have
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03:37:40 <Napkin> rumors! ;)
03:37:45 <Lys> lol
03:37:54 <Lys> ok, so playing on windows tiles
03:38:06 <Lys> morgue screen, as I understand it, should show kills right?
03:38:14 <Lys> but in my case it only shows items
03:38:19 <Lys> and then exits the game
03:38:22 <Napkin> "morgue screen"?
03:38:26 <Lys> and the kills.lua isn't commented out
03:38:29 <Lys> well
03:38:32 <Lys> when you die
03:38:39 <Lys> the screen that shows you your stats
03:38:46 <Lys> items to say
03:39:22 <Napkin> well, i am not aware it's been shown in the game at the end
03:39:38 <Lys> oh so that's not supposed to show?
03:39:48 <Napkin> but i haven't played tile for a while
03:40:05 <Lys> mm well its the same with the ascii version
03:40:08 <Napkin> where it was usually shown, was in the morgue file itself
03:40:12 <Lys> so its kinda irrelevent
03:40:17 <Lys> where should morgue files be saved?
03:40:23 <Lys> cus I can't find them anywhere in my computer
03:40:34 <Napkin> hehe, that's another fun part ;)
03:40:49 <Napkin> start a game and save it
03:41:00 <Lys> done
03:41:01 <Napkin> then i would first check in the game folder itself
03:41:13 <Napkin> is there a "save" folder? or maybe a "morgue" folder?
03:41:25 <Lys> not in the crawl directory no
03:41:34 <Napkin> neither "save" nor "morgue"?
03:41:48 <Napkin> then you need to check in your "Documents" folder
03:41:52 <Lys> neither afaict
03:42:17 <Lys> hmmm
03:42:25 <Lys> looking there... and I don't see anything
03:42:28 <Napkin> are you playing trunk/master/beta?
03:42:40 <Napkin> you are seeing hidding files & folders, right?
03:42:48 <Lys> umn whatever the latest stable release is
03:42:56 <Napkin> ah, stable, ok
03:42:58 <Lys> and yes
03:43:10 <Napkin> if you give me a sec, i will login at home and run my virtualbox windows
03:43:17 <Lys> cheers mate
03:43:22 <Lys> this has been driving me crazy for a while
03:43:33 <Napkin> nobody in here could tell you?
03:43:37 <Lys> the games a little too "well coded"
03:43:37 <Lys> nope
03:43:40 <Lys> whichI found surprising
03:43:47 <Napkin> i demand to have "save" back in application folder! :D
03:45:09 <Napkin> tiles, right?
03:45:14 <Lys> yeah
03:45:18 <Lys> but I kinda think its irrelevant
03:45:25 <Lys> but for the sake of this, I play tiles mostly
03:45:34 <Napkin> ahh, opportunity to check the new installer :)
03:45:53 <Napkin> erm - did you use the installer?
03:46:04 <Napkin> did you install "for anyone" or "just for me"?
03:46:05 <Lys> err, yes
03:46:10 <Lys> umn
03:46:12 <Lys> anyone I think
03:46:20 <Napkin> (just making sure - in case that matters)
03:46:26 <Lys> though im the only person who uses this comptuer lol
03:46:36 <Napkin> hehe
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03:49:29 <Napkin> Lys: for me it's in "Documents and Settings\Administrator\Application Data\crawl\"
03:49:40 <Lys> checking
03:49:45 <Napkin> "Application Data" is a hidden folder
03:50:11 <Lys> FOUND IT!
03:50:18 <Lys> Thank you so much!
03:50:23 <Lys> I could kiss you!
03:50:23 <Napkin> when I died the game showed me inventory first, then score screen
03:50:34 <Lys> god this has been plaguing me for ages
03:50:39 <Napkin> hehe
03:50:43 <Napkin> glad I could help
03:50:53 <Lys> swweeeet
03:50:57 <Napkin> could you feed back, is kills.lua still makes a difference?
03:51:22 <Napkin> playing tiles remotely is not very pleasant to do testing ;)
03:51:23 <Lys> yeah
03:51:27 <Lys> its in the morgues
03:51:37 <Lys> so yeah its all good :)
03:51:51 <Napkin> awesome :)
03:52:35 <Lys> *dance for joy*
03:52:46 <Napkin> :D
04:01:35 <kilobyte> crap.  Legendary Crusade made two of Pikel's slaves perm-friendly, one temp, but killing Pikel made them neutral...
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04:30:15 <CIA-40> 03kilobyte * rdca06a7a3a81 10/crawl-ref/source/ (enum.h mon-util.cc tag-version.h tags.cc): If you get Pikel's slaves to perm friendly, don't degrade them on Pikel's death.
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04:55:29 <OG17> is anything happening with the dwarf branch?  Just noticed it's been pretty quiet
04:56:30 <dpeg> OG17: no.
04:59:47 <dpeg> Hi everyone!
05:00:25 <dpeg> Eino is trying to instill sanity into the badger, but I doubt he'll succeed.
05:01:54 <dpeg> kilobyte: thanks for the replies on Ash. Will have some time to talk about the xp/skills bit later?
05:09:27 <bmh> An insanity badger?
05:09:38 <dpeg> seems like he has an insane phase, yes
05:10:10 <dpeg> He also likes to style himself as the "rogue designer", who has radical ideas the establishment (we) won't recognise/accept.
05:10:33 <CIA-40> 03Keskitalo * r8a748be60716 10/crawl-ref/source/rltiles/dc-item.txt: Reorder scrolls in dc-item.txt. Fixes #2721 (wrong scroll icons).
05:10:38 <dpeg> I don't really care about his state of mind as long as he produces good ideas occasionally, which he does.
05:10:41 <bmh> speaking of which, can I have square LOS back?
05:12:11 <dpeg> undecided
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05:16:28 <dpeg> lunch now
05:19:35 <Mu_> guy on SA did 15 runes with a felid, posted feedback on felids/golubria/malign gateway:  http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3332877&pagenumber=89#post383266810
06:02:06 <bmh> Is a Kiku altar guaranteed?
06:04:47 <kilobyte> bmh: yes
06:05:13 <bmh> kilobyte: maybe I'm not looking hard enough, but I've scoured D:2-9 and can't find one.
06:05:24 <kilobyte> Mu_: <3 whining about nearly dying every single fight due to only 3 AC
06:05:51 <kilobyte> wasn't it D:2-10?
06:05:54 <bmh> I've got Yred (x2), Trog, Makhleb, Sif, TSO, Zin, Vehumet, Xom, Chei, Nemelex, Ely, Okie, Fedhas, and Ash
06:06:03 <bmh> the learnedb says 2-9
06:06:42 <kilobyte> I checked, indeed 2-9
06:06:45 <bmh> nothing on 10 either.
06:06:54 <bmh> altars generally aren't hidden
06:06:58 <kilobyte> is that on CDO?
06:07:02 <bmh> yes
06:07:11 <kilobyte> could you use copysave?
06:07:20 <bmh> how do I do that?
06:07:38 <bmh> got it
06:07:50 <bmh> https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/1865/
06:07:51 <bmh> er
06:07:58 <bmh> http://crawl.develz.org/saves/dumps/bh-787a77e-101015-1107.tar.bz2
06:11:17 <kilobyte> got it, there's indeed a bug
06:11:24 <kilobyte> no altar for you :(
06:11:29 <bmh> wtf.
06:11:42 <bmh> I was playing this game entirely to take Kiku
06:11:48 <kilobyte> the overflow altar you got may produce either Yred or Kiku, and it claims to be able to do both
06:12:03 <kilobyte> yet when it is actually placed, it rolls it again
06:12:23 <bmh> bug bug bug
06:13:12 <kilobyte> there are guaranteed temples in the Abyss, but I kind of don't think it's a good idea to wait that long...
06:13:23 <bmh> is there a magical switch you can throw to fix it? like exploding the temple for me
06:14:25 <kilobyte> you can bribe Napkin to run: crawl --edit-save bh rm 02a
06:15:04 <Napkin> should I?
06:16:02 <kilobyte> depends on the bribe, I'd say :p
06:16:18 <bmh> please?
06:16:18 <kilobyte> not sure what's your policy on working around bugs in ongoing games
06:16:20 <Napkin> not sure I can, to be honest...
06:16:26 <Napkin> can I specify the savegame file?
06:16:33 <Napkin> full path, I mean?
06:16:52 <kilobyte> no, just the character name
06:17:02 <Napkin> hmm, not so nice
06:17:24 <kilobyte> doing by the actual filename might be a good addition, but for now, it works by the same interface as --save-version
06:18:29 <Napkin> I have no name!@ipx14623:/> /bin/crawl-svn-787a77e --edit-save bh rm 02a
06:18:29 <Napkin> Error: can't open save file (/crawl-svn-787a77e/saves/bh-0.cs): No such file or directory
06:18:47 <Napkin> can i force ID?
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06:20:33 <kilobyte> su crawl
06:20:38 <Napkin> haha
06:21:06 <Napkin> soon i can remove the chroot.. since everything is inside already
06:21:08 <Napkin> ;)
06:22:13 <Napkin> nah, not going to copy whole libpam stuff to the chroot
06:22:20 <Napkin> not an option
06:23:11 <Napkin> done, bmh
06:23:17 <bmh> All hail Napkin, king of kings
06:23:42 <Gretell> bh (L10 FeTm) ASSERT(load_mode != LOAD_VISITOR) in 'files.cc' at line 1420 failed. (D:2)
06:23:59 <Napkin> ouch?
06:24:18 <bmh> fixed, I think
06:24:24 <bmh> I waked back to D:2 rather than auto-travel
06:24:46 <CIA-40> 03kilobyte * r4c96f27c951c 10/crawl-ref/source/initfile.cc: Allow --edit-save dir/actual-file-name.cs
06:24:57 <Napkin> thank you very much, kilobyte :)
06:27:07 <CIA-40> 03kilobyte * r0dfea9275470 10/crawl-ref/source/initfile.cc: Allow --save-version dir/actual-file.cs as well.
06:27:14 <kilobyte> just for completeness.
06:27:22 <Napkin> great :)
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06:31:03 <bmh> If you evaporate a potion of blood it leaves white clouds -- shouldn't it leave red clouds?
06:31:14 <Napkin> anyone interested in checking the core dumps on CDO? Could use some more free harddisk space
06:31:40 <Napkin> > du -sk cores/
06:31:40 <Napkin> 814848  cores/
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06:42:37 <kilobyte> most old ones are pretty worthless
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07:03:58 <gamefreak264> Has Ashenzari basically reached a feature freeze yet?
07:05:46 <kilobyte> not yet... dpeg wants something tactically usable
07:06:03 <gamefreak264> Okay, I'm going to wait to play it for a while, then
07:06:10 <kilobyte> if we add something of that kind, the xp bonus would have to be scaled back, though
07:06:34 <kilobyte> so the power level shouldn't change much
07:06:44 <gamefreak264> Does Ashenzari have a gender? All the meanies on ##crawl fuss at me when I refer to gods with the wrong pronoun
07:07:20 <gamefreak264> Also, thanks, kilobyte
07:07:42 <eith> no gods have genders, they are all picked by the users
07:07:52 <gamefreak264> I know, and it's annoying
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07:08:38 <gamefreak264> they also fuss at me when I call Mara a her, though, I think Mara might actually be defined as male on the description thingie
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07:11:47 <Galehar> hi
07:12:06 <kilobyte> meow!
07:12:22 <kilobyte> gamefreak264: Mara is a guy from some indic mythology
07:12:35 <gamefreak264> Yeah, I admitted to that part :P
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07:13:23 <gamefreak264> Also, I just learned a new word
07:13:29 <gamefreak264> I wasn't aware of Indic before
07:13:50 <gamefreak264> apparently  it means South Asoa
07:13:53 <gamefreak264> *Asia
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07:15:34 <kilobyte> uhm... India? :p
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07:20:20 <dpeg> back
07:20:45 <dpeg> kilobyte: even if you think that re-skilling is not important... I think it has a lot of appeal.
07:24:30 <kilobyte> it definitely shouldn't be something done tactically, though
07:25:16 <kilobyte> because then we'd be in the same place we were with spells and Selective Amnesia
07:25:37 <dpeg> kilobyte: oh, switching skills is not the tactical bonus I am talking about ):
07:25:38 <casmith789> dpeg: reskilling? changing 15 long blades into 8 fire magic?
07:25:40 <dpeg> erm :)
07:25:54 <kilobyte> most people would use it at most once per game, some bastards would juggle them every fight
07:26:02 <dpeg> kilobyte: it would cost piety
07:26:08 <dpeg> casmith789: yes, take some N xp spent in skill A and use them for skill B
07:26:28 <casmith789> aha, a temporary boost, nice
07:26:35 <Galehar> will, you can make it so you spend more in A to gain less in B
07:26:35 <dpeg> no, not temporary
07:26:41 <casmith789> what?
07:26:44 <dpeg> I was thinking of using this over (or in addition to) additional xp gain.
07:26:51 <casmith789> would it not be better for temporary boosts
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07:27:30 <casmith789> hm, I see
07:27:35 <dpeg> My starting point was that Ashenzari would be about outward inflexibility (the curses) but inward flexibility (the re-skilling)
07:27:55 <dpeg> Additional xp gain is a nice boost, but it feels a bit power-gamey.
07:28:19 <casmith789> True
07:28:19 <dpeg> Being able to change skills from time to time is a more active incarnation of the xp/skills approach to the god.
07:28:43 <casmith789> It would be fun to suddenly switch from fire to ice magic
07:28:55 <dpeg> casmith789: if you have the spells, sure.
07:29:02 <casmith789> especially if you'd started as a white DrFE
07:29:36 <dpeg> You wouldn't get an xp gain/loss. So if your Fire apt is great but your Ice apt is bad, you'll go from Fire 12 to Ice 10, say.
07:29:51 <casmith789> dpeg: well yes, this is why you'd switch. It could be easy to gain some better skills though
07:29:57 <dpeg> And it costs piety (likely a ****** ability), so you wouldn't do it on a whim.
07:30:16 <dpeg> kilobyte, Galehar: does it make any sense what I am saying?
07:30:28 <casmith789> Yes, should be high cost, but what about switching (say) stealth to fighting?
07:30:37 <Galehar> Well, but then it would be much easier to become skilled in several elemental schools.
07:30:55 <dpeg> Galehar: ah, the issue about cross-training and anti-training...
07:31:25 <dpeg> And yes, people would like to get full Fighting, I agree. If we don'T like this, my idea is a bad one.
07:31:32 <Galehar> I think it also should have a net xp loss (spend more than you gain). Not a big one. Just to discourage juggling.
07:31:40 <dpeg> Galehar: okay
07:31:41 <casmith789> yes, I think there should be an xp loss
07:31:50 <dpeg> so piety + xp loss, okay
07:33:39 <Galehar> about cross-training and anti-training, you can balance it with piety. For the same piety cost, you can dump more XP in a "cross-trained" skill, but less in an "anti-trained" skill
07:34:13 <dpeg> yes, I would simply include those factors while swapping the xp
07:34:23 <Galehar> So to become skilled in both fire and ice, you would have to use the ability several times, which in the end will cost you a lot of piety and xp
07:34:44 <kilobyte> how much of the source skill would it transfer?
07:36:18 <dpeg> kilobyte: something like min(donating skill's half xp, receiving skill's missing xp) ?
07:37:26 <kilobyte> missing is...?
07:39:16 <casmith789> up to skill level 27 I guess
07:39:18 <dpeg> yes
07:40:01 <Galehar> I'd give also an absolute minimum. If you have a skill trained up to about 5, you should be able to reclaim all its XP in one go.
07:40:17 <dpeg> okay
07:41:17 <dpeg> then we could have a fixed piety cost of 10 or so, and an xp loss of 10% when swapping?
07:41:36 <dpeg> This would make people not spam it, I think.
07:41:39 <Galehar> also, to completely negate any tactical use, when you use the ability, the XP starts flowing slowly from one skill to the other. It takes several hundred turns to complete.
07:41:46 <casmith789> :o
07:41:51 <Galehar> costs: yes
07:41:51 <casmith789> I thought it was meant to be tactical
07:41:58 <dpeg> casmith789: no, see ^
07:42:10 <dpeg> it was meant to add to the xp boost
07:42:16 <casmith789> ah
07:42:24 <Mu_> humanoids in cigotuvi's wizlab aren't talking
07:42:26 <dpeg> it is meant as a intentionally active strategic choice
07:42:30 <Mu_> trunk build on cdo
07:42:38 <dpeg> Mu_: did they use to talk?
07:42:48 <Mu_> they talk in my local build even
07:42:52 <dpeg> I think we had reports about monsters not talking any more.
07:43:43 <Mu_> maybe something wrong with cdo's monspeak.txt somehow?
07:45:19 <Mu_> i just got nht to rest near them and they were silent, whereas locally their speech fires every 20 or so turns
07:46:52 <dpeg> Mu_: do you have any idea how to check this?
07:47:30 <due> feh
07:47:35 <Mu_> not really...i guess first see if the cigotuvi speech is even in the file?
07:47:43 <due> i'll have a look
07:48:06 <dpeg> due: great!
07:49:31 <due> Mu_: it's there
07:49:52 <Mu_> any ideas why the speech doesn't work then?
07:50:04 <due> hm
07:51:08 <due> Possibly the speech key code is fucked
07:51:15 <due> Or doesn't work on 64bit machines, I'll need to test it at work
07:51:28 <Mu_> oki
07:51:32 <Mu_> thanks due
07:52:29 <kilobyte> it works on amd64 for me
07:52:31 <kilobyte> locally
07:53:02 <dpeg> With the tactical powers for Ash I'd wait a bit... perhaps there'll be new ideas.
07:53:13 <dpeg> But I think the skill swapping could be good enough as is.
07:54:01 <dpeg> kilobyte: if I come up with a procedure to distinguish between important and unimportant items/monsters, would you change detection feedback from { to . and { ?
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07:56:37 <kilobyte> { ?
07:56:45 <dpeg> is it } ?
07:57:00 <kilobyte> ah, monsters
07:57:06 <dpeg> yes
07:57:10 <dpeg> and items too! :)
07:57:36 <kilobyte> doh, ∆ is not an ascii char :p
07:57:56 <due> kilobyte: hm, thanks
07:57:58 <due> kilobyte: dgl build?
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07:58:19 <dpeg> kilobyte: you're seeing the triangle there?
07:58:22 * dpeg envies kilobyte.
07:58:39 <kilobyte> I guess it's the default for cset_unicode, lemme check
08:02:58 <kilobyte> (work, sorry)  Yes, it is.
08:03:14 <kilobyte> too bad detected monsters don't have a nice glyph assigned
08:03:22 <kilobyte> just that butt-ugly {
08:04:00 <st_> it used to be a nice ~ before the water glyph change
08:04:08 <due> Why not @ or so?
08:04:23 <dpeg> st_: we could still use ~, I think
08:07:37 <elly> heh
08:07:46 <elly> it's interesting to see the difference between ##crawl-dev and #angband-dev
08:08:06 <kilobyte> what do they do in the old-mummy-land?
08:08:07 <elly> you guys are talking about new features, and we're talking about a gigantic refactoring and push for unit testing :P
08:08:48 <kilobyte> well, we refactor like 40% of code every release
08:09:16 <dpeg> elly: Angband is feature complete, I assume? :)
08:09:19 <kilobyte> current unit tests are pretty shabby, though
08:09:24 <elly> dpeg: totally ;)
08:09:29 <elly> kilobyte: well, so are ours!
08:09:34 <dpeg> "100% grindability achieved, success!"
08:09:42 <elly> kilobyte: we have about 150 of them total, covering 0.5% of the codebase :P
08:09:46 <elly> "it is being worked on"
08:09:56 <elly> that's not true, it's more like 5%
08:10:16 <elly> dpeg: we're discussing removing the town :P
08:12:27 <CIA-40> 03Keskitalo * rdc074ce665c8 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/portals/volcano.des: Fix secret doors being given away by colouring in several volcano_grotto subvaults.
08:12:28 <dpeg> elly: the town is scummers' central?
08:13:00 <elly> huh?
08:13:04 <elly> the town makes it possible to grind
08:13:22 <elly> you can play in IRONMAN_DOWN, of course, and it seems like many of the thought leaders do
08:13:33 <elly> which causes the game to be balanced for IRONMAN_DOWN instead of normal mode
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10:14:51 <Ashenzari> Spriggan Agnes tile (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2723) by coolio
10:34:58 <Ashenzari> Nisse tile (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2724) by coolio
10:45:01 <Ashenzari> Evaporate prematurely giving "Surge of Power!" message. (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2725) by Shotgun Pete
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10:50:03 <Ashenzari> Evaporate prematurely giving "Surge of Power!" message. (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2726) by Shotgun Pete
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10:55:58 <CIA-40> 03dolorous * rd13bb4fd49ab 10/crawl-ref/source/ (mon-info.cc mon-info.h mon-util.cc): Move draco_subspecies() from monster_info back to mon-util.cc.
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11:23:08 <CIA-40> 03dolorous * r502f2de4bd9a 10/crawl-ref/source/ (mon-info.cc mon-info.h): Properly use mon-util's draco_subspecies() in monster_info (oops).
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12:33:45 <CIA-40> 03dolorous * ra07d64560452 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-util.cc: Add proper monster index assert to mons_class_colour().
12:33:46 <CIA-40> 03dolorous * ra2f3022c01cc 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-info.cc: Use better defaults for draco_type/colour in monster_info::monster_info.
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12:50:44 <Ashenzari> Seeing an Unseen horror with only one unidentified ring on your hand does not identify it as a Ring of See Invisibility. (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2728) by Twilight
12:50:44 <Ashenzari> Error in calculating max_cloud_damage w/ MUT_PASSIVE_FREEZE (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2727) by ubergeek
12:57:31 <ortoslon> due, Napkin: please update windows builds, i swear a lot because of wrong scroll tiles
12:58:24 <CIA-40> 03dolorous * rcc386ab6c7f5 10/crawl-ref/source/cloud.cc: Apply ubergeek's patch in Mantis 2727.
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14:25:27 <CIA-40> 03dolorous * r8bbb2a7352a6 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-info.cc: Simplify.
14:25:27 <CIA-40> 03dolorous * raf53818c36b0 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-info.cc: Fix draconian genus/species inconsistency in monster_info.
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14:48:15 <kilobyte> looking at holy monster tiles, the shedu looks so abysmally out of place that I'm considering deleting it outright
14:48:43 <kilobyte> a big question mark would at least force someone to draw something semi-decent
14:49:11 <Napkin> kilobyte? the bug ortoslon is talking about - the build from this early morning has it too?
14:51:26 <kilobyte> Keskitalo fixed it recently, lemme check
14:51:52 <Napkin> i build early in the morning
14:52:02 <Napkin> thank you
14:52:11 <kilobyte> 8a748be6, 14:07 our time
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14:54:40 <Napkin> fatal: ambiguous argument '8a748be6': unknown revision or path not in the working tree.
14:54:46 <Napkin> means it's not in, huh?
14:55:35 <Napkin> rebuilding then :)
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15:09:41 <CIA-40> 03dolorous * r5774257f72bc 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-data.h: In mon-data.h, move certain monsters to their proper sections.
15:20:39 <kilobyte> there's something wrong with cats getting sick by eating frigging rats
15:20:51 <kilobyte> on the other hand, they really shouldn't get saprovode
15:20:58 <kilobyte> s/de$/re
15:21:16 <kilobyte> especially that RL cats very easily get sick on food
15:21:50 <kilobyte> it's just kind of like vampires getting sick from human blood -- bad food isn't the same for everyone
15:23:59 <rkd> I don't think ALL cats easily get sick on food :o
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15:28:13 <kilobyte> another reason for Blade Paws to go: consistently one-shotting elephants at xl13 isn't good
15:34:50 <syllogism-> if you haven't renamed them to blade paws yet, sure
15:34:56 <syllogism-> but can't remove blade paws
15:35:49 <casmith789> blade paws?
15:36:00 <kilobyte> somehow, quite a few people seem upset whenever I say something against Blade Paws
15:36:09 <kilobyte> I wonder what is the reasoning
15:36:35 <casmith789> did the L5 tmut spell get renamed for felids? if so, sure, remove it
15:36:43 <casmith789> I don't like it anyway ;)
15:36:59 <kilobyte> for "why not", it's: 1. realism -- how are you supposed to walk, and 2. no-brainer: with UC only, it's always a bonus
15:37:32 <casmith789> it's not a no-brainer
15:37:34 <syllogism-> but on the other hand; blade. baws
15:37:36 <syllogism-> paws*
15:37:40 <TGWi> how is it a no-brainer
15:37:51 <kilobyte> but then, everyone seems to be very fond of the spell.  I wonder if it's because of its power, or the mental image.
15:37:56 <Eronarn> kilobyte: both
15:38:10 <Eronarn> also, it's a spell that boosts attack directly, whichi s generally cool but we have few of those
15:38:19 <casmith789> You need tmut skill, you need to take into account the fact you can't cast as well, and you need to have used the 5 spell levels on it. I certainly don't use it
15:38:20 <Eronarn> (brands don't count)
15:38:31 <Eronarn> casmith789: you can cast, you just have lower success
15:38:45 <casmith789> hence the "can't cast as well"
15:39:00 <Eronarn> oh, i read that as cast, 'as well', oops
15:39:01 <casmith789> oh ambiguity
15:39:05 <casmith789> fun times :)
15:39:10 <Eronarn> <-- just spent 3 hours staring at spreadsheets
15:39:33 <kilobyte> it takes ~8 Tmut to cast it very well, so it's a paltry investment
15:40:01 <Eronarn> also, wrt felids: remove them, they suck
15:40:15 <Eronarn> if we're not going to remove them, at least make them less dumb (no-wands, no-summon-canines)
15:40:43 <casmith789> 8 skill isn't paltry :/
15:41:03 <Eronarn> yeah it is
15:41:10 <casmith789> if you're focusing on blade hands, sure you can get there quite fast
15:41:46 <casmith789> on the other hand if you aren't, which I expect you probably aren't if you're (say) going for a FE it'll take quite a bit longer before you can drop 8 levels of exp into tmut
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15:42:08 <TGWi> getting 8 levels in some random off-school is not loleasy
15:42:16 <TGWi> !apt fe tmut
15:42:16 <Henzell> Could not understand "fe"
15:42:51 <kilobyte> by mid-lair, perhaps.  By mid-snake, pretty trivial.
15:43:04 <kilobyte> TGWi: it's currently +2, which doesn't help either
15:43:10 <TGWi> it's +1
15:43:41 <kilobyte> right, +1
15:44:05 <TGWi> BH is a no-brainer in the way that, say, phase shift is
15:44:06 <casmith789> +1 apparently, according to monky
15:44:09 <casmith789> but anyway, the fact you can cast a level 5 spell by mid snake surely doesn't make it OP :/
15:45:12 <TGWi> "you can deal more damage for only a significant skill and spell level investment, as well as a casting malus!" is not a no-brainer
15:45:15 <Eronarn> i have a pretty easy resolution to this: felids cannot cast blade hands, because they do not have hands
15:45:22 <Eronarn> problem solved
15:45:33 <TGWi> you're supposing there's a problem
15:45:52 <Eronarn> the problem is with whoever thought felids were a good idea
15:46:07 <monky> other solutions include: remove felids; split felids off into a crawl variant so balance doesn't matter
15:46:18 <Eronarn> i vote remove felids
15:46:33 <TGWi> yes
15:46:48 <Eronarn> also, add octopusfolk
15:47:01 <Eronarn> hat, cloak, amulet, 8 rings
15:47:02 <monky> multiple-tile players?
15:47:04 <monky> oh
15:47:29 <jld> I was thinking more like mind flayers from zangband.
15:47:39 <Eronarn> jld: oh, i had a mind flayer proposal before
15:47:47 <Eronarn> but no, i just mean hyperintelligent octopuses
15:47:52 <Eronarn> that traverse the land in search of adventure
15:48:01 <monky> how would mind flaying work
15:48:11 <TGWi> first, you flay a mind
15:48:18 <TGWi> then you do it again
15:48:18 <monky> but what are the effects
15:48:26 <TGWi> the mind is flayed
15:48:28 <monky> oh
15:48:35 <monky> antimagic?
15:48:39 <monky> manavampirism?
15:48:54 <monky> confusion?
15:49:21 <Eronarn> monky: now that antimagic exists, that could be a decent effect for it
15:49:22 <jld> I don't think I ever got far enough in Za for my mind flayers to be able to flay minds.
15:49:39 <Eronarn> jld: if you are the psychic class in ADOM you are basically a mind flayer.
15:50:08 <monky> mind flayers are in nethack too but I'm pretty sure nh mind flayers are silly like the rest
15:50:45 <jld> They're in NH as monsters, but not as a player species.
15:50:49 <monky> oh
15:50:55 <jld> I think even SLASH'EM didn't go there.
15:51:09 <galehar> yes, but they are a valid polymorph form
15:51:10 <sorear> Eronarn: I don't remember getting tentacles on any of my psychic wins
15:51:58 <galehar> speed runners use the form to get the wizard out of his tower
15:52:10 <TGWi> who drew shedu?
15:52:28 <Eronarn> sorear: on the other hand you can get a huge brain
15:53:31 <jld> Oh right polyself.  Clearly I've been playing too much crawl.
15:54:03 <jld> But yeah.  Octopusfolk.  With 8 rings.  Also, with levitation and blade tentacles.
15:54:06 <Eronarn> (why isn't anyone coding octopusfolk yet)
15:54:18 <galehar> i wonder...
15:54:24 <TGWi> Eronarn: too busy coding the tree race
15:54:38 <TGWi> also, actual features
15:54:43 <Eronarn> actual feature mimics
15:55:05 <Eronarn> TGWi: ps, tree race would be great.
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15:57:49 <galehar> you know guys, if you really think you've got good race ideas, you should take the time to make a full design and put them on the wiki. Throwing a few words here isn't gonna bring a dev to code it.
15:58:33 <Eronarn> galehar: i don't 'think', way to make assumptions
15:58:42 <jld> I assumed Eronarn was joking about the octopusfolk....
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16:04:39 <Eronarn> jld: No.
16:05:23 <Eronarn> 'no body armor, gloves, or boots - but 6 extra ring slots' is actually a potentially interesting tradeoff
16:06:15 -!- Giomancer has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
16:09:50 <Eronarn> 'In the UK, cephalopods such as octopuses are regarded as honorary vertebrates under the Animals (Scientific Procedures) Act 1986 and other cruelty to animals legislation, extending to them protections not normally afforded to invertebrates.'
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16:17:37 <kilobyte> and by the UE law, carrots count as "fruit" because Portugal wanted to allow carrot jam while someone else insisted on jam being defined as something made of fruit
16:17:56 <kilobyte> or, that efforts to legislate the value of pi
16:18:20 <kilobyte> or, attempts to redefine "kilobyte" as 1000 bytes rather than 1024 it has been for sixty years
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16:21:03 <TGWi> "kilo" is a metric prefix bro
16:21:05 <TGWi> get your own
16:21:55 <TGWi> https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:balance&do=diff
16:21:55 <TGWi> wha
16:22:44 <TGWi> SinsI is completely insane
16:23:38 <kilobyte> TGWi: it has been used in a manner that makes sense for the subject matter for sixty years, no association of drive makers is going to change that just so their marketing departments can avoid lawsuits for false advertising
16:25:20 <sorear> Eronarn: kilobyte added felids.  I'll get the popcorn./
16:27:35 <galehar> kilobyte: what you say is true, but on the other hand we can say that the computer industry have been using wrongly a standardised prefix for sixty years, leading to all kind of confusions for users, and that it's about time something was made about it.
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16:31:12 <kilobyte> there wasn't any confusion until certain drive makers introduced it
16:35:06 <TGWi> there wouldn't have been any confusion if people learned the metric system
16:35:49 <galehar> yeah, the kilo=1024 must have been invented by boody yankees ;)
16:35:55 <galehar> *bloody
16:36:18 <monky> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary_prefix
16:36:28 <monky> too bad nobody uses these
16:37:12 <kilobyte> "too bad"?  They're uglier than squarelos.  And more confusing, too.
16:37:16 <galehar> not true. I see the new prefix from time to time
16:37:35 <galehar> "uglier than squarelos" lol!!!
16:37:42 <TGWi> galehar: to be fair, we also invented computers
16:37:42 <monky> hey squarelos is beautiful
16:37:47 <kilobyte> that's a strong statement
16:37:57 <TGWi> everything is uglier than squarelos
16:38:02 <TGWi> (square los is the least ugly thing)
16:38:35 <galehar> tonight is trolling night!
16:39:20 <kilobyte> that "MiB" thing is pretty obvious... for everyone I've asked, it means "millions of bytes" as opposed to 1048576 buyes
16:39:21 <galehar> if you don't use Linux and have a thick beard, you're just a fag
16:40:18 <monky> I use linux but no beard :(
16:40:30 <kilobyte> so MB=1048576, MiB=1000000, right?
16:40:38 <kilobyte> Except for those drivemaker trolls.
16:40:40 <galehar> kilobyte: what? that's backward
16:40:44 <TGWi> other way around, bro
16:41:02 <TGWi> drive manufacturers are trolls for using logical units?
16:41:34 <kilobyte> galehar: I asked a bunch of people at work, not a single of them ever heard the MiB atrocity before, but they tried to guess...
16:42:04 <galehar> If you're using the new metric, there's no ambiguity. kibi = 1000. If you're using ko, it can mean 1000 if you sell drives, or 1024 if you're a geek
16:42:28 <galehar> s/ko/kb/
16:42:37 <kilobyte> and try to persuade a guy who's been working with computers since they used punched tape that suddenly core units are to be redefined
16:43:02 <TGWi> try to persuade SI that they're wrong
16:43:20 <kilobyte> it's not even SI, it's some random committee
16:43:22 <TGWi> if you'd rather redefine the kilogram, I could go with that
16:43:49 <TGWi> idc who's doing it, they're right for not crapping on the metric system
16:43:52 <galehar> yeah, I know, very few people are aware of it. I said I've "seen" the new prefix used. Meaning "read on the internet". I don't know of any friend or coworker aware of it
16:44:02 <sorear> I seem to have missed the news conference.  When was the size of the byte pinned at 8 bits?
16:44:11 <kilobyte> found it, it's not SI, it's IEC
16:44:37 <monky> weird-bit bytes are weird
16:45:02 <TGWi> kilobyte: also, you should warn the greeks that they used "kilo" wrong
16:46:02 <galehar> anyway, it will take some time to sink in, but my opinion is that the new units are a good things. When we will all be old, our grand childrens will make jokes about our kilo=1024
16:48:28 <kilobyte> according to the acceptancy rates of the new junk, that's quite unlikely.  The usage is actually declining.
16:49:16 <galehar> well, isn't it used in Linux?
16:49:25 <kilobyte> in some tools, it sadly is
16:49:37 <kilobyte> fortunately, only some
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16:49:54 <TGWi> oh no, unambiguous units
16:50:01 <TGWi> now where will I put my arbitrary rage
16:50:28 <dpeg_> evenings
16:50:33 <TGWi> hi dpeg_
16:50:39 <galehar> hi
16:50:47 <dpeg_> TGWi: What's a matter, why so upset?
16:50:58 <galehar> so, dpeg, what's your take on kibibyte vs kilobyte?
16:51:01 <TGWi> dpeg_: we're whining about binary prefixes
16:51:26 <TGWi> it's relevant to crawl development because um
16:51:31 <dpeg_> silly pack :)
16:51:37 -!- dpeg_ is now known as digipeg
16:51:47 <galehar> yeah, we're just trolling
16:52:11 -!- TGWi is now known as TibiGWi
16:52:17 <digipeg> no problem, as long nobody's talking real dev stuff
16:52:50 <galehar> there was some talk about blade paw when came earlier
16:52:54 <digipeg> galehar: good work on the inventory prompts... even better now :)
16:52:54 <due> Digipeg ounds like a pokemon.
16:52:59 -!- TibiGWi is now known as TGWi
16:53:02 <galehar> good :)
16:53:03 <digipeg> due: as it should!
16:53:17 <digipeg> My favourite pokemon is Tyranitar, just so you know.
16:53:29 <Danei> <Danei> <TGWi> Danei: there is no invisible newt proposal on that page
16:53:30 <Danei> <Danei> <TGWi> can I delete those fucking comments
16:53:30 <Danei> <Danei> I guess you can delete them--You said an invisible newt wouldn't be dangerous, though, and I was responding to that
16:53:53 <digipeg> We've got some devs here, so let me ask: did you see my anti-traps proposal?
16:53:55 <TGWi> don't worry, they can stay
16:53:56 <digipeg> Any opinions?
16:54:17 <monky> where is it
16:54:18 <due> anti-traps   proposal?
16:54:20 <due> I'm not awake
16:54:36 <digipeg> due: scrap mechanical traps, unless perhaps for vault purposes
16:54:38 <Danei> I can propose an invisible newt, if that would help. I'd call it a chameleon
16:54:55 <digipeg> instead, add destructional traps: fire (scrolls), ice (potions), magic (wand charges)
16:55:03 <TGWi> Danei: I already suggested that to replace gila monsters :(
16:55:05 <due> m.
16:55:14 <digipeg> this way, traps become useful instead of the current mess we have with mechanicals
16:55:15 <due> digipeg: We have enough item destruction already.
16:55:20 <Danei> That would be nice. I can't really tell the difference between gila monsters and crocodiles
16:55:22 <digipeg> never!
16:55:27 <digipeg> shafts, alarm and zot traps are okay
16:55:29 <due> digipeg: People will scream and cry about it.
16:55:30 <Danei> Except that I can eat one and not the other
16:55:33 <digipeg> yes!
16:55:36 <TGWi> digipeg: we need more lua traps
16:55:41 <TGWi> rolling boulders and whatnot
16:55:46 <TGWi> s/more/any/
16:56:10 <digipeg> TGWi: I made a simple proposal just to get rid of the axe/needle/pillow/bolt and whatnot traps
16:56:13 <galehar> digipeg: I'm thinking yes to new destructional traps.
16:56:16 <digipeg> right up to blade
16:56:20 <digipeg> galehar: cool!
16:56:24 <TGWi> digipeg: I wouldn't complain about pillow traps
16:56:33 <TGWi> but yeah, mech traps are kind of lame
16:56:56 <galehar> digipeg: as borsuk said on the wiki page, alarm trap are too quiet
16:57:02 <digipeg> There should be a little flavoural damage (fire, ice etc.) but mostly it's about T&D preventing item loss
16:57:11 <digipeg> galehar: the badger is insane but correct
16:57:19 <galehar> sometimes
16:57:26 <digipeg> sometimes insane? :)
16:57:31 <galehar> it's trivial to boost it
16:57:41 <digipeg> galehar: you have free reign :)
16:57:42 <galehar> so, 25 for alarm trap?
16:57:46 <digipeg> +1
16:57:48 <TGWi> what are they now?
16:57:49 <kilobyte> sometimes his insanity overflows so he actually wraps around into reason
16:57:56 <digipeg> kilobyte: <3
16:58:00 <rkd> now we just need acid traps ^^
16:58:11 <kilobyte> rkd: hate hate hate
16:58:12 <galehar> alarm traps : 12
16:58:16 <monky> I don't like traps in general but yeah mech traps are the worst
16:58:25 <rkd> acid traps are fun in adom
16:58:26 <digipeg> rkd: yes, Eino also supported the new trap types but I neglected acid traps on purpose
16:58:28 <TGWi> yeah, go for 20 or 25 or some
16:58:40 <digipeg> not sure that's really necessary
16:58:41 <monky> my favorite trap is the shaft
16:58:41 <rkd> step in one and your entire inventory is gone
16:58:41 <rkd> :D
16:58:42 <due> no acid traps :(
16:58:48 <digipeg> due: later!
16:58:53 <TGWi> shafts are boss though
16:59:06 <kilobyte> yeah, shafts are often deadly
16:59:18 <digipeg> also, those new trap types would come very handy for the badger's trap plant plan
16:59:22 <sorear> rkd: you've clearly never met a ceiling trap.
16:59:23 <kilobyte> but are an interesting challenge rather than a slap to the face
16:59:24 <TGWi> decent but non-ridiculous challenge, and a big incentive to find them (because you can use them to duck out of danger)
16:59:36 <TGWi> teleport traps should have a limit on charges, btw
16:59:40 <digipeg> yes, I am happy about shafts
16:59:47 <digipeg> web traps should also be okay
16:59:49 <TGWi> they're kind of abusable because monsters will walk over them (or you can)
16:59:53 <digipeg> TGWi: absolutely
17:00:05 <rkd> sorear i was probably thinking about that one "acid falls from the ceiling" or something? or am I way wrong now?
17:00:09 <digipeg> I am not sure if removing tele traps or limiting them is better
17:00:10 <TGWi> only thing is, some vaults use teleport traps to keep you away from loot
17:00:19 <digipeg> TGWi: yes
17:00:28 <TGWi> tele traps are fine, unlimited free teleportation not really
17:00:28 <digipeg> there are also vaults which make good use of mechanical traps
17:00:29 <kilobyte> TGWi: they are scummable with teleport control until you get into a specific place... but then, many vaults rely on them to keep you from getting stranded
17:00:39 <digipeg> so that's why we'll have to keep them (or at least some)
17:00:45 <TGWi> kilobyte: that too, though those could have hatches too
17:00:48 <sorear> rkd: ceiling traps are the "part of the ceiling collapses on you!" one
17:00:54 <rkd> ah
17:00:57 <sorear> rkd: they destroy 10-20 times more items
17:00:57 <TGWi> re: new traps, what about glow traps?
17:00:59 <digipeg> kilobyte: replied on Ash wiki btw
17:01:04 <digipeg> TGWi: details!
17:01:08 <TGWi> digipeg: glows you
17:01:09 <TGWi> :P
17:01:19 <rkd> killing yourself with earthquake is also fun
17:01:24 <rkd> when the level collapses
17:01:28 <kilobyte> for those grate traps, I would have already added them as vaults+lua, except for one thing:
17:01:29 <TGWi> yellow, maybe a few points over; enough to hurt you
17:01:42 <sorear> rkd: ceiling traps are only found in temples... they're about as bad as the rift
17:01:44 <kilobyte> merely placing stairs at the end of a corridor would be obvious
17:01:51 <TGWi> I want to try to make some lua traps but there's no support... you couldn't find them with T&D etc
17:01:52 <digipeg> What are you guys talking about?
17:01:52 <kilobyte> because we currently never put them there
17:02:16 <digipeg> kilobyte: we often have hatches at dead ends, though
17:02:32 <kilobyte> digipeg: that idea of a trap that slams a grate down behind you
17:02:34 <TGWi> what are grate traps?
17:02:39 <TGWi> oh
17:02:40 <digipeg> kilobyte: this I understand
17:02:47 <digipeg> was asking rkd and sorear
17:02:48 <TGWi> so you leave the staircase and then it traps you in the level?
17:02:52 <digipeg> no
17:02:55 <galehar> teleport trap are good. They are very nasty in branch ends to naive players. Make them have limited charges, but don't remove them
17:03:01 <rkd> we were discussing some adom traps :P
17:03:03 <digipeg> galehar: okay then
17:03:15 <digipeg> galehar: random number of uses, say 3+d3?
17:03:25 <TGWi> d5?
17:03:35 <digipeg> rkd: you should pester ##adom-dev :P
17:03:45 <digipeg> TGWi: or that, whatever
17:03:47 <galehar> d5 is better. more random
17:03:51 <digipeg> galehar: okay
17:04:01 <digipeg> Is that easy to do? For otherwise I'd have to open a ticket.
17:04:38 <CIA-40> 03raphael.langella * ree460804a9ca 10/crawl-ref/source/traps.cc: boost alarm trap noise
17:04:50 * digipeg likes noise
17:05:06 <kilobyte> galehar: thanks for the alarm stuff!
17:05:21 <galehar> it's a 2 chars commit...
17:05:22 <TGWi> is there a xom effect that involves making a ridiculously loud noise?
17:05:27 <kilobyte> digipeg: note that changing teleport requires going through all the vaults
17:05:35 <Mu_> xom yells, "BOO!"
17:05:45 <galehar> Mu: lol
17:05:53 <galehar> I like it :)
17:05:57 <digipeg> me too
17:06:05 <digipeg> kilobyte: I would do that
17:07:07 <digipeg> kilobyte: we also have no_tele_into these days, which is often a better solution
17:07:24 <kilobyte> on Duris, when you got hit by a Fear spell, the message was "Dpeg assumes a terrifying visage of death, blah blah blah" if didn't resist -- or "Dpeg says 'boo'.  You are not impressed." if you did
17:07:45 * kilobyte was always impressed by the latter.
17:08:03 <galehar> some vault require teleport traps to prevent you from getting items. Maybe we can have permanent teleport trap for vaults, and charged ones for random generation.
17:08:12 <kilobyte> galehar: or that
17:08:22 <kilobyte> like, sword in stone
17:08:29 <digipeg> galehar: yes, good point
17:08:38 <digipeg> just have two trap types for that
17:08:39 <TGWi> is it possible to specify numbers of charges for alarm traps in vaults?
17:08:45 <kilobyte> a "greater teleport trap", to let people tell them apart?
17:08:49 <TGWi> if not, it should be, and teleport traps too
17:08:53 <TGWi> or that yeah
17:09:08 <digipeg> "permanent teleport trap" perhaps? But it's only words.
17:09:33 <TGWi> teleprot trap
17:11:56 <galehar> or the opposite. Permanent traps are just "teleport trap", like the players are used to, and the new one with charges is an "unstable teleport trap"
17:12:18 <digipeg> also okay
17:13:24 <monky> would unstable teleport traps explode instead of simply vanishing
17:13:35 <monky> that'd be nifty, and more reason not to rely on them
17:13:45 <monky> though possibly too good with luring enemies
17:14:15 <kilobyte> send you to the Abyss instead!
17:14:34 <monky> degenerate into a zot trap
17:15:26 <digipeg> just disappearing is enough
17:15:36 <Eronarn> they can start off as tele traps, but after a certain number of uses, degrade into blink traps!
17:16:14 <Eronarn> (actually, it would be kind of cute if they did blink-in-direction-you-just-walked from. repulsor field!)
17:20:28 <digipeg> Eronarn: tactical abuse
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17:25:23 <OG17> how is making intelligent use of tele traps considered "scumming?"  The possibility of a feature acting in the player's favor doesn't need to set off alarm bells
17:25:39 <OG17> though I like mechanical traps so whatever
17:26:37 <TGWi> OG17: intelligent use isn't scumming, unlimited free teleports is pretty lame though
17:27:08 <Eronarn> solution: teleport traps teleport themselves
17:27:17 <OG17> why is it lame
17:27:23 <Eronarn> (except the ones for vaults, obv)
17:27:24 <galehar> OG17: if you have TC, instant teleport out of touble is awesome. A teletrap is even better than upstairs
17:27:32 <Eronarn> (though i don't think we actually need those tbh)
17:27:53 <TGWi> sorry, I forgot
17:27:53 <kilobyte> don't need TC really, all it does is making it safer
17:27:57 <TGWi> unlimited free INSTANT teleports
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17:28:32 <OG17> that only apply to a single square of the level
17:28:51 <galehar> which you can drag monsters close to
17:28:53 <kilobyte> making them teleport you several turns later wouldn't help unless the trap is in a dead end
17:29:15 <TGWi> kilobyte: give them d5 charges
17:29:17 <TGWi> bro
17:29:19 <Eronarn> make them teleport stuff nearby you, too?
17:29:36 <kilobyte> as in, fixed destination?
17:29:59 <Eronarn> as in, when they're activated, they grab things from the surrounding area rather than just what walked on their tile, and teleport them all somewhere else
17:30:06 <Eronarn> (the same somewhere else)
17:30:25 <Eronarn> fixed destination could also work if intelligent monsters followed you through them
17:30:28 <sorear> replace them with instant death traps, problem solved
17:31:05 <monky> kills player if monsters walk over them, too
17:31:13 <galehar> make them with d5 charges is a good solution...
17:32:08 <OG17> it's not, vaults need to be unlimited
17:32:17 <digipeg> you can also easily abuse tele traps with ranged attacks
17:32:25 <digipeg> @^...monsters
17:32:50 <TGWi> vault tele traps turn into repulsion traps after charges are gone
17:32:51 <TGWi> obv
17:32:55 <OG17> you can do the same with other traps, shafts
17:32:57 <OG17> water etc
17:33:13 <TGWi> shafts disappear after one use and also put you 1-3 levels OOD
17:33:15 <TGWi> and water? what?
17:33:23 <OG17> @^
17:33:28 <digipeg> We don't need to invent complicated solutions.... tele traps are like shafts in that they can make matters worse if not detected. And they're good (even better than shafts) if detected.
17:33:40 <digipeg> A shaft is single use, a tele trap is unlimited use.
17:33:51 <TGWi> digipeg: also, they give free unlimited instant teleports
17:34:07 <digipeg> TGWi: we both know that tele traps are problematic. OG17 does not.
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17:35:02 <digipeg> galehar: yes, d5 is probably a good number
17:38:05 <kilobyte> would someone cry if I made the iron grate an actual dungeon feature?  I'm a bit lazy with respect to adding lua markers to something dynamically created.
17:40:19 <Eronarn> FR: power glove unrand.
17:40:54 <digipeg> kilobyte: how would it work for you?
17:41:08 <digipeg> I agree it's cool, but I am not sure we gain so much gameplay-wise from it.
17:42:13 <galehar> it closes behind you when you enter a room? It can be awesome, but only in vaults. Randomly generated, it will be silly 99% of the time.
17:43:34 <galehar> and +1 to making it a feature. It's more immersive than having a door turn into a wall.
17:43:45 <Eronarn> digipeg: here's one: a portal vault entrance where the grates go down, and the only way out is a teletrap. you either have to do it now, or only come back when you have a way to get through the grates
17:44:31 <digipeg> oh, I have no doubt that it can work wonders in vaults, my question was more about random generation
17:44:46 <kilobyte> galehar: that's why I'm strongly opposed to it working as a random trap, but I like the concept enough to bother implementing it
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17:45:09 <digipeg> kilobyte: ok!
17:45:41 <kilobyte> the "actual feature" thing is to make coding easier.  It's currently used by two vaults, for them, transparent rock with a new name and tile is enough.
17:46:26 <galehar> make some vaults featuring grates trap and we will code it!
17:46:32 <Mu_> could do something cool with iron gates in dis
17:46:38 <digipeg> galehar: or vice versa :)
17:46:40 <kilobyte> hmm... we'd need a new trap type, if T&D is supposed to work on it
17:46:41 <digipeg> Mu_: <3
17:46:56 <kilobyte> something that merely calls lua
17:47:04 <digipeg> well, if we're doing traps anyway, would one of you be up to doing the change to mechanical traps?
17:47:09 <Eronarn> Mu_: you know those boxy rooms in dis? make them always have 4 entrances, and when you go in one, it and the two adjacent close
17:47:09 <TGWi> kilobyte: I would really, really love that
17:47:13 <Eronarn> so you always have to walk through the boxes
17:47:13 <digipeg> I can provide numbers.
17:47:14 <TGWi> kilobyte: please implement it
17:47:51 <Eronarn> pressure plate!!1
17:48:19 <Zannick> pressure plates tied to grates
17:48:35 * digipeg is slightly concerned that new content is always all the rage and nobody wants to address old stuff.
17:48:38 <Zannick> or floodgates, doors, cages...
17:48:50 <Zannick> gosh, this sounds like dwarf fortress
17:48:58 <digipeg> Zannick: DF is ----------------->
17:48:59 <digipeg> :)
17:49:05 <Zannick> i'm just saying
17:49:08 <Zannick> :)
17:49:20 <Zannick> at least it's a cool part of df
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17:49:46 <digipeg> I am not arguing with cool... although for some ideas I don't see tactical use.
17:49:53 <galehar> digipeg: what old stuff?
17:50:01 <digipeg> galehar: mechanical traps
17:50:15 <digipeg> For grate, a simple but effective vault would be
17:50:23 <digipeg> xxxxx
17:50:24 <digipeg> x>..^.
17:50:25 <digipeg> xxxxx
17:50:42 <digipeg> make than a <
17:50:49 <galehar> what about them? I haven't heard anything about them other than: remove them!
17:50:53 <Eronarn> digipeg: a mini-ziggurat would be cute. 9 rooms, if you go into one, your exit closes
17:51:11 <digipeg> galehar: hey, I came here with the proposal to replace them by fire/cold/magic traps! :)
17:51:26 <kilobyte> digipeg: yeah, this is obvious, the problem is: we never place upstairs right at the end of a corridor
17:51:31 <galehar> ok, so not remove but replacing...
17:51:33 <kilobyte> digipeg: so this would be suspicious
17:51:45 <digipeg> galehar: yes
17:51:46 <Eronarn> so um how is this ash scroll stuff supposed to work?
17:51:55 <digipeg> Eronarn: the prayer?
17:52:46 <digipeg> galehar: It's on the wiki. Eino reacted enthusiastically, there's support here... so when new traps are added, I'd suggest we take care of the problematic old traps (mechanical, teleportation) at the same time.
17:53:07 <kilobyte> Eronarn: is the message not clear enough?
17:53:17 <kilobyte> Eronarn: did you actually try it, or just wonder?
17:53:25 <Eronarn> yes, i tried it - i'm not sure if there's a piety cost, etc.
17:53:35 <kilobyte> Eronarn: because if it confused you, it's important data
17:53:49 <Eronarn> well, it's somewhat confusing in that it's different from what the wiki proposal was :P
17:53:52 <Eronarn> i was expecting to have to find scrolls
17:53:59 <TGWi> seriously though pressure plates would be awesome
17:55:26 <digipeg> kilobyte: Infest test game had two stairs of type
17:55:28 <digipeg> xxxxx
17:55:30 <digipeg> ..>..
17:55:31 <digipeg> xxxxx
17:55:36 <digipeg> and one of type
17:55:38 <digipeg> xxxx
17:55:41 <digipeg> x<.
17:55:42 <digipeg> xxxx
17:55:52 -!- syllogism has quit []
17:56:27 <digipeg> Eronarn: the mechanic how to get Curse scrolls might change a little bit, so having no further information on ^ is okay for now
17:56:44 <digipeg> TGWi: awesome how?
17:57:07 <TGWi> digipeg: would allow a lot of new stuff to be created and interact with T&D
17:57:19 * digipeg is not convinced
17:57:23 <TGWi> in vaults rather than in code
17:57:51 <digipeg> I believe that T&D will only come into its own if we can set up traps, i.e. active use, not just passive. For this, no pressure plates needed.
17:58:11 <digipeg> I am not a fan of levers, pressure plates and what not.
17:58:19 <TGWi> it's just a trap, bro
17:59:16 <digipeg> Yes, but why?
17:59:24 <Eronarn> dpeg: i don't think converting scrolls feels right fwiw. i think ash would be fine he just recolored remove curse and curse scrolls, and that's it (have to rely on found scrolls for both uncursing and recursing)
17:59:32 <digipeg> Currently, we have arrow traps. It's just a trap. But why?
17:59:56 <digipeg> Eronarn: we'll see. For now, having access to cursing scrolls is very good for testing.
18:00:06 <digipeg> I feel that relying on finding them is a bit too harsh.
18:00:09 <Mu_> net traps are cool
18:00:14 <TGWi> allows for creativity and interesting traps to be implemented easily
18:00:20 <TGWi> same reason .des exists
18:00:37 <digipeg> Mu_: yes, but they suffer so much from being mostly useless, just like the other mehcanical traps.
18:01:08 <digipeg> TGWi: I don't think I want "push button A, then B" minigames.
18:01:22 <kilobyte> digipeg: agree
18:01:28 <TGWi> who is suggesting that
18:01:29 <digipeg> Mu_: therefore, cool in vaults, only meh elsewhere.
18:01:49 <digipeg> TGWi: this will naturally appear once pressure plates are in. You have my word.
18:01:57 <TGWi> vaults don't reproduce
18:02:00 <TGWi> I think
18:02:10 <Mu_> a bear trap that held you in place until you make a T&D check would be cool too imo
18:02:23 <digipeg> Mu_: but same problem
18:02:48 <digipeg> Mu_: the reason why I came up with the item destruction traps is precisely that they make you pay even in the absence of monsters.
18:03:08 <Mu_> ah
18:03:19 * digipeg recalls being fond of carrying bear traps around in NH.
18:04:21 <digipeg> Mu_: same holds for shafts and Zot traps: you miss the detection, your loss. Arrow traps are trivial in almost all cases -- too many to warrant having them (randomly generated at least), in my opinion.
18:04:52 <TGWi> p.s. press button A, then B minigames are equally possible now
18:05:07 <digipeg> TGWi: is that a reason we want official buttons?
18:05:26 <TGWi> official buttons for traps, yes
18:05:34 <digipeg> I don't.
18:05:44 <TGWi> buttons A and B wouldn't even use them because they wouldn't want to start hidden or use T&D skill
18:06:10 <Mu_> pit traps that spawn a bunch of humanoids at the edge of LOS when you fall in? :P "The trappers emerge to confront their prey!" :P
18:06:22 <digipeg> Mu_: now we're talking! :)
18:06:31 <sorear> pit with vipers trap from ADOM
18:06:53 <digipeg> Mu_: this is similar to the web trap idea that came up for Spider: once you're webbed, the (otherwise hidden) spider will appear.
18:07:40 <Mu_> cool
18:07:55 <monky> would monster-spawning traps be at all abusable
18:08:10 <digipeg> Okay, for the sake of being constructive, here are numbers: a fire trap on dungeon level N does 1dN fire damage (rF helps) and has a chance of burning each scroll in inventory with a chance of N/33; stop at d(N) burnt scrolls.
18:08:38 <digipeg> Mu_: and what's better, spiders walking around would create new webs... so areas you've cleared aren't ever fully clear in Spider.
18:09:27 <Eronarn> digipeg: strongly, strongly, strongly, strongly against
18:09:41 <digipeg> Obvious adaption for ice traps. For magic traps, replace scroll by wand and "burn" by "remove one charge".
18:09:54 <digipeg> Eronarn: so many stronglies make me dismiss your comments
18:09:58 <Eronarn> if i could do bold, underlined, 72 pt font saying 'THIS IS A BAD IDEA'
18:10:02 <Eronarn> i would
18:10:07 <monky> that would be hilarious
18:10:31 <Gretell> soul (L1 DGWz) ASSERT(!crawl_state.is_repeating_cmd()) in 'main.cc' at line 3894 failed. (D:1)
18:10:39 <monky> as for magic traps, I thought one of the defining features of wands was that there's no fear of lost charges or anything like that
18:10:53 <digipeg> Eronarn: I'll completely ignore you until you mention reasons instead of opinions!
18:11:05 <digipeg> monky: maybe, but is that good?
18:11:12 <digipeg> The idea of losing wands to traps is old.
18:11:31 <digipeg> And everyone agrees that hasting/healing/teleportation are too good rather than too weak.
18:12:08 <Eronarn> digipeg: players don't like item destruction; players especially don't like item destruction when they don't expect that it's coming; players *HATE* when new stuff they don't like gets added in a way such that it will affect the entire game, since then they can't avoid it
18:12:30 <Eronarn> it is a change that will generate a ton of antipathy for minimal gain
18:12:32 <digipeg> I don't care. I believe that item destruction makes the game better.
18:12:39 <Eronarn> sorry, it doesn't
18:12:52 <digipeg> Players hate oklobs. Oklobs are very interesting enemies. ==> Good that the game is not designed by players.
18:13:56 <st_> oklobs are auto excluded and you don't even deal with them outside of that hive vault
18:14:13 <monky> what about those vaults where all the stairs are behind oklobs
18:14:23 <digipeg> st_: they come up frequently enough
18:14:46 <digipeg> these traps would make T&D a whole lot more relevant than it is now.
18:15:14 <Mu_> you could factor TD skill into chance for item destruction :P
18:15:33 <digipeg> Mu_: but why? T&D already affected your choice of finding the trapß
18:16:06 <Mu_> was trying to throw the anti-destruction people a bone :P
18:16:10 <digipeg> :)
18:16:26 <Eronarn> digipeg: this isn't a change that makes T&D better, it's a change that makes everything worse unless you raise T&D
18:16:30 <digipeg> If we make it so that any impact will trigger the trap like a 3x3 explosion, then there'd be even an active use of T&D.
18:16:30 <Eronarn> that's terrible design
18:16:43 <digipeg> Please stop that.
18:16:54 <Eronarn> stop coming up with awful ideas that other roguelikes have tried and failed miserably at
18:17:02 <digipeg> It's not terrible design. It is an idea you don't like, which is okay.
18:17:19 <Eronarn> it's both
18:17:49 <digipeg> You're clogging up all ##crawl-dev space by shouting about how bad the design is.
18:18:01 <digipeg> The premise was: randomly generated traps are pointless.
18:18:10 <digipeg> at least, the mechanical ones
18:18:18 <digipeg> Shaft and Zot traps are good
18:18:30 <digipeg> so we learn from them and replace mechanical traps by something that's relevant
18:18:40 <digipeg> losing a potion is not a big deal, no matter what players say
18:18:56 * sorear <3 item destruction
18:19:58 <Eronarn> i realize you like to completely ignore the viewpoints of players, but news flash: they don't care about abstract design reasons like 'this will make T&D more relevant' because they're actually real people actually playing a game and thus subject to very human tendencies such as loss aversion
18:20:02 <digipeg> It would have been an option to dispense with traps altogether (they don't add terribly much to a roguelike) but for whatever reason that ship has sailed.
18:20:31 <digipeg> This is propaganda. I have never been ignoring players and you should know that.
18:20:43 <digipeg> But there are times when one has to ignore them.
18:21:03 <digipeg> Players have told me _in advance_ that new Trog, new Ely and a slow god would suck.
18:21:37 <digipeg> A god who uses a finite resource (fruits) is unplayable. Stuff like that. Sometimes you've just got to ignore them.
18:21:50 <Eronarn> (they're right about slow god, and half-right about new ely, who is alright but not really a top-tier 'fun' god)
18:22:36 <digipeg> fun is a subjective notion, I won't discuss the merits of Elyvilon and compare old vs new
18:22:54 <digipeg> when players say "suck" they mean "underpowered"
18:23:03 <Eronarn> fun is experienced subjectively, but subjective phenomenon can be measured objectively
18:23:09 <Eronarn> and that's true some of the time, but not others
18:23:24 <Eronarn> just a few days ago in the SA thread there were people talking about the haste status quo sucking, and how they want to see it changed
18:23:39 <digipeg> Anyway, it were _players_ who pointed out that mechanical traps are bad and suggested replacements.
18:23:51 <digipeg> I am listening to them!
18:24:15 <Eronarn> mechanical traps are bad because they're irrelevant (since they usually happen outside of combat, and do minimal damage)
18:24:21 <digipeg> exactly
18:24:29 <Eronarn> your proposed traps are bad for totally different reasons
18:24:31 <Mu_> everyone's been killed by a trap at least once :P
18:24:43 <Eronarn> Mu_: yes, and it's VERY frustrating to people, for very predictable reasons
18:24:48 <digipeg> If we want randomly generated traps (which we should in order to make T&D useful outside of vaults), then random traps must hurt otherwise.
18:25:08 <digipeg> Eronarn: note how my proposal will prevent trap deaths -- these do suck big time.
18:25:23 <digipeg> I would be fine with having a "set HP to 1 if deadly" clause btw.
18:25:28 <Eronarn> digipeg: removing mechanical traps would do that, but i'm strictly talkinga bout your new traps
18:25:35 <Mu_> man i thought trap deaths were the best part
18:25:49 * digipeg briefly wonders about Mu_'s sanity.
18:26:13 <Mu_> my favourite is when people escape from some incredibly tense situation and dive for the staircase with 4HP only to be finished off by an axe trap
18:26:21 <OG17> how can anyone not like that
18:26:22 <digipeg> Mu_: I had that. And I didn't like it :)
18:26:27 <OG17> that's why people play roguelikes
18:26:31 <Eronarn> basically, this will make trap deaths less common, but trap annoyances far more common. and - surprise surprise - annoyances like that are more depressing/stressful to people than occasional letdowns are
18:26:40 <digipeg> OG17: well, not me. This is why we considered removing traps.
18:27:13 <Eronarn> other things that people don't like: losing things, uncontrollable events, unpredictable events, unpredictable and very infrequent events
18:27:31 <Eronarn> this hits all those 'this will make most humans unreasonably irritated' buttons
18:27:39 <digipeg> Darshan rightly pointed out that traps are generally marginal, unless when they're deadly. And their deaths are more arbitrary than any other death (including instakills from monsters).
18:27:46 <Eronarn> if you wanted to add a mechanic designed to make people dislike their playing experience, this is how you'd do it
18:28:25 <digipeg> Eronarn: Crawl has plenty of item destruction atm, and it does not drive our players away and it's good for balancing purposes.
18:28:33 <CIA-40> 03kilobyte * rf7f9bc5dbb82 10/crawl-ref/source/ (5 files in 4 dirs): Add coolio's tiles for nisse and Sprigagnes.
18:28:37 <digipeg> You bring resources, but you won't be sure how long they last.
18:28:39 <monky> I dislike traps and secret doors in general, but there are side-effects of traps that I particularly like: shaft traps shafting into dangerous situations; zot trap triggering when monsters step on them; choices of whether to step on a known trap (and suffer, say, when being chased by monsters) or do something else like spend a blink scroll
18:29:06 <digipeg> monky: yes, I agree with that. It's similar for me.
18:29:15 <Mu_> i don't like zot being invoked against you either
18:29:31 <Mu_> don't mind the other things, also love secret doors
18:29:33 <Mu_> :p
18:30:00 <monky> a t&d-less version could be rare random shafting, more (but known) zot and maybe other traps (would make corridor fighting worse, which is probably good)
18:30:04 <monky> oh and I forgot to mention alarm traps
18:30:21 <monky> I like them too
18:30:24 <digipeg> Okay, it seems that all devs who spoke up were okay with the change of mechanical traps --> item loss. Anyone wants to discuss the numbers, or should I add them to the wikiß
18:30:30 <Eronarn> digipeg: other sources of item destruction in crawl are generally avoidable, and while it doesn't make people stop playing, it DOES make them enjoy playing less. it does affect balance, but i don't think it is clearly a positive/desirable effect, and i don't at all think it's clear that any benefit outweighs the fun cost
18:31:10 <digipeg> mottled dragon?
18:31:19 <Mu_> i don't really wanna lose the old traps. can you keep them with the never-lethal clause?
18:31:21 <digipeg> You#ve got one turn to drop your single most important scroll :)
18:31:30 <Mu_> might have to drop needle traps though in that case
18:31:46 <digipeg> Mu_: I would keep them for vault purposes. Some vaults make good use of traps.
18:31:53 <galehar> to avoid item destruction, give players a bag in which to toss their potions and scrolls. (warning there may be sarcasms here)
18:32:00 <Eronarn> they don't always breathe immediately when you enter LOS, they don't always hit you, you have things like scrolls of fog or rmsl to react
18:32:02 <monky> item dropping is tedious, for what it's worth
18:32:10 <Eronarn> and, yes, even so, it's annoying to fight them
18:32:14 <digipeg> Mu_: and it would be okay to have osme of them in the dungeon, so that players are not frightened when they see their first axe trap :)
18:32:21 <Mu_> ye
18:32:44 <Eronarn> this is basically like: 'what if hell effects happened ALL THE TIME, throughout the entire game, wouldn't players find that fun'
18:32:53 <Eronarn> (no: they will come for you with pitchforks, and for good reason)
18:32:54 <digipeg> As I see it, one point of Crawl is that anything can turn against you. This includes loss of items. It is crucial.
18:33:41 <Eronarn> also, almost all item destruction in crawl (hell effects being the main exception) occur during combat
18:34:03 <Eronarn> in this case, like mechanical traps, it will just occur randomly while autoexploring
18:34:05 <sorear> My favorite game was the bugged one where Zot was considered a Hell branch
18:34:07 <digipeg> Reliability is the powergamer's wet dream. Anything that goes against it detested. This is fine, but doesn't mean we have to follow their wishes.
18:34:26 <Eronarn> that has absolutely nothing to do with being a powergamer
18:34:33 <TGWi> can we stop the power gamers are awful thing, digipeg?
18:34:37 <digipeg> no no
18:34:43 <digipeg> it is important to my inner balance
18:34:53 <galehar> let's try it. You can wear an amulet of conservation if you're a materialist. Anyway, I'm not coding it tonight. I have to ge to bed.
18:35:01 <digipeg> galehar: nights!
18:35:06 <TGWi> it's an irritating dismissal of points which people believe are valid
18:35:09 <digipeg> galehar: I will add it to the wiki, okayß
18:35:28 <digipeg> TGWi: I don't say that powergamers are bad. In fact, they're good.
18:35:50 <Mu_> they'll be appropriate to place in fire and ice themed vaults and portals too :P
18:35:56 <digipeg> It's just that their trying to optimise win chances should not influence our design.
18:36:00 <TGWi> how about the "everyone who disagrees with me is a power gamer, and I don't need to listen to them" thing
18:36:10 <digipeg> Lest we end up with wands of wishing.
18:36:22 <digipeg> TGWi: I didn't say that, this is propaganda.
18:36:31 -!- galehar has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.10/20100914125854]]
18:36:44 <digipeg> TGWi: I explained what I mean, please stop the rhetorics.
18:37:03 <TGWi> that is what I am saying to you
18:37:21 <digipeg> TGWi: it's nonsense and I never meant it.
18:37:26 <Eronarn> someone suggesting something that would increase their win chances does NOT mean they are a powergamer
18:37:52 <digipeg> The insane fear of losing items must come from somewhere.
18:38:01 <Eronarn> basic human psychology
18:38:05 <sorear> win chances are overrated
18:38:10 <digipeg> sorear: yes
18:38:13 <sorear> I liked Crawl better when I couldn't win it
18:38:15 <Eronarn> it is a well-documented finding that humans are MUCH more averse to losing a foo than gaining a foo
18:38:16 <TGWi> FR: replace players with robots
18:38:20 <digipeg> sorear: I loved 4.1
18:38:28 <Eronarn> this makes no logical sense, but it's the truth
18:38:29 <Napkin> !coffee dpeg
18:38:29 * Henzell hands dpeg a pot of irish coffee, brewed by Nikola.
18:38:36 <digipeg> Huh!
18:38:38 <TGWi> hi Napkin
18:38:39 <Eronarn> not taking this into account in your game design makes no logical sense
18:38:46 <Eronarn> and sadly, for your proposal, is the truth
18:38:54 <Napkin> hey :)
18:39:27 <digipeg> Napkin: :)
18:40:03 <digipeg> Eronarn: I know that people hate losing things, I am human myself. But that does not make me unable to see the benefits of item destruction.
18:40:45 <Eronarn> digipeg: i'm not saying that item destruction cannot have benefits, but rather that the costs associated with it make it something that should be used VERY sparingly
18:41:01 <Eronarn> and with consideration to how it will make players feel
18:41:25 <Eronarn> this is like not making vaults where the primary challenge is an interface one
18:41:36 <Eronarn> can you decrease player win rates that way? yes, but it's not a good idea to do so
18:42:31 <Mu_> how can you even argue this without knowing how common the traps will be or how much item destruction they end up doing
18:42:37 <digipeg> yes
18:42:50 <digipeg> was about to comment that nobody assumes the same trap density
18:42:51 <Eronarn> Mu_: dpeg listed a proposed formula
18:43:18 <Mu_> but not how common they'll be
18:43:50 <Eronarn> but that's not something that directly matters, unless you make them so rare that they're only showing up a handful of times in a game (e.g., in a specific themed vault)
18:43:53 <digipeg> Mu_: but I had exactly the same problem when discussing future features with players. They take too much for granted, whereas for us all parameters are free to be changed.
18:43:56 <Mu_> see how it goes on test and maybe it wont be so bad as you expect
18:45:02 <digipeg> Also, I tried to indicate the positive side: T&D trap detection would now give the very gratifying feeling that you kept something. With the proposal that any impact triggers the trap you're double rewarded!
18:45:37 <Eronarn> digipeg: did you not listen to what i just said?
18:45:48 <Eronarn> 19:38 < Eronarn> it is a well-documented finding that humans are MUCH more averse to losing a foo than gaining a foo
18:45:52 <digipeg> I listened bravely!
18:46:08 <digipeg> keeping a foo triggers joy, too
18:46:15 <digipeg> I know this from player reports.
18:46:24 <Eronarn> yes, but not nearly to the same degree
18:46:58 <Eronarn> people are far, far, far less happy to lose an item than they are happy to gain one
18:47:01 <digipeg> There was resistance to my proposal to change oklobs from plant colour to light green because of -- attention -- "I always feel so smug when I discover that a P actually is an oklob."
18:47:40 <digipeg> Eronarn: yes, this is why they're happy to _not_ having lost one
18:49:30 <Eronarn> ...it doesn't work like that :|
18:49:52 <Eronarn> you are arguing from imagination
18:50:50 <digipeg> the most constructive to spend the last hour would have been alternative proposals for how to replace random mechanical traps, by the way
18:51:24 <Eronarn> digipeg: are you not the one who just said you worry that people are too focused on new stuff? ;)
18:51:33 <Eronarn> i am fine with just removing (or greatly limiting) mechanical traps
18:51:57 <due> I see someone has a problem with premature evaporation!
18:51:59 <Eronarn> i don't think that they even need a replacement, because it's not like they affect the game much right now
18:52:34 <Eronarn> if we are to have random traps, i think they should be traps that get the player into an immediate tactical situation
18:52:43 <digipeg> which they don't
18:52:46 <digipeg> they're mostly garbage
18:52:47 <Eronarn> like - teleport can dump you next to monsters; alarm brings monsters; shaft dumps you down some levels
18:52:54 <digipeg> we are talking about mechanical traps
18:52:59 <digipeg> the others are more or less okasy
18:53:07 <Eronarn> right, i am saying mechanical traps should be more like that
18:54:20 <Eronarn> for example - a trap that, if there is a certain amount of weight in the room (PC + monsters), the floor gives way to a pit, and now you must scramble up the side in order to escape
18:54:32 <Eronarn> somewhat like nethack pit traps, but affecting an entire multiple-tile room
18:55:17 <Eronarn> it is a trap that only matters if there are enemies nearby, and restricts your mobility, but also can be used offensively if you know about it (e.g., run through with a band of orcs following you)
18:55:31 <digipeg> Eronarn: all of this is complicated
18:55:34 <due> That doesn't make sense.
18:55:42 <due> That would involve massive reprogramming of the dungeon generator and code.
18:55:49 <due> And involve height maps andeverything.
18:55:55 <digipeg> we want to do something about the boring mechanical traps right now (especially as new trap types seem to get added, which is cool)
18:56:16 <Eronarn> due: i'm not saying this is an idea that can be implemented directly, but that this is the kind of thing we should be looking for, rather than more traps that you find while autoexploring and promptly ignore
18:56:18 <digipeg> due: what's your opinion on s/axe,bolt,pillow,needle,blade/fire,ice,magic/ ?
18:56:41 <digipeg> Eronarn: re promptly ignore: see ^ on triggering
18:56:42 <Eronarn> digipeg: again, the boring mechanical traps can just be axed. because they're boring.
18:57:01 <digipeg> Eronarn: then T&D would be only about finding Zot traps.
18:57:19 <Eronarn> digipeg: right now, it's only about finding zot traps and boring mechanical traps
18:57:36 <digipeg> (and secret doors, which I omitted9
18:57:37 <Eronarn> we shouldn't let the illusion that T&D has ever been a working skill hold us back on this one
18:57:42 <due> And trap mimics.
18:57:43 <monky> I still like my idea about increasing zot trap generation but making them known
18:57:45 <due> Well, feature mimics.
18:57:48 <digipeg> due: :)
18:57:54 <due> digipeg: I'm kinida iffy about fire/ice traps.
18:57:58 <digipeg> monky: add it to the trap wiki
18:58:01 <monky> I will
18:58:05 <Eronarn> monky: i'd rather see new kinds of traps than just more zot traps
18:58:05 <digipeg> thansk
18:58:08 <Eronarn> they should feel ominous
18:58:21 <due> But it's pointless discussing it right now as Eronarn is inwaffle-mood and I am grumpy ;)
18:58:21 <Eronarn> best off keeping them fairly rare
18:58:31 <digipeg> due: what's your opinion on losing wand charges from a trap?
18:58:38 <digipeg> due: yes, probably
18:58:57 <digipeg> I will just add my formula proposal to the wiki and that's it. Plus mention that trap chances gonna be tweaked.
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19:00:49 <due> Needle/status effect traps should stay,imho.
19:02:09 <Eronarn> mega-evaporate traps would work well
19:02:33 <Eronarn> 3x3 isn't big enough, but if they filled ~75% of visual range with clouds and made noise to do it, that'd be interesting
19:03:01 <monky> would it use an inventory potion
19:03:15 <monky> (thereby destroying it)
19:05:01 <due> monky: I like that idea.
19:05:31 <digipeg> monky: there is a longterm idea to set up traps from wands.
19:05:45 <digipeg> which I like a lot and which the above idea would pave the way for
19:05:57 <Eronarn> monky: that sounds better as a miscast effect than a trap
19:06:05 <digipeg> (since ice/fire/magic traps are much closer to wands than mechanical traps)
19:06:12 <casmith789> haha, every time I come in here dpeg has a different nick
19:07:04 <digipeg> casmith789: it's my schtick!
19:07:13 <digipeg> https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:misc:traps
19:20:32 <Mu_> another reason to keep the regular mechanical traps would be to give players something to disarm to actually get their T&D skill up in the first place
19:20:53 <TGWi> sjohara's character selection help idea is extremely sexy
19:21:14 <TGWi> is there a way to make disarming matter? I don't like that it's just for grinding T&D
19:21:35 <Mu_> make magical traps disarmable :P
19:21:44 <digipeg> Mu_: I am not too happy about that either. In my opinion (and experience), T&D grows sufficiently from finding traps (or running into them).
19:22:12 <digipeg> Mu_: I always supported that idea that Zot traps etc can be disarmed
19:22:25 <TGWi> does the wiki have a spoiler block-type thing?
19:22:37 <TGWi> ie it hides content unless you click on a button
19:22:46 <digipeg> not sure
19:22:59 <Mu_> i don't think it grows much at all personally, i don't think i've ever gotten it above 5 in a 3-rune game
19:23:05 <TGWi> because a lot of the character selection page is outdated, but I don't want to trash the whole thing
19:23:08 <digipeg> Mu_: you switch it offß
19:23:21 <Mu_> oh yeah probably
19:23:23 <digipeg> TGWi: you can delete and set a link to the old page
19:23:28 <Mu_> still pretty low
19:23:28 <digipeg> Mu_: that doesn't count :)
19:23:34 <TGWi> digipeg: hm
19:23:55 <digipeg> TGWi: seriously, Eino has used that elsewhere for long discussions
19:23:57 <TGWi> I'll do that and try to draft up sjohara's thing
19:24:05 <Mu_> if it's a worthwhile skill there should be some incentive to take it up into the 20's
19:24:20 <digipeg> TGWi: cool! I really like his (her?) idea.
19:24:36 <digipeg> Mu_: well, we know that that won't happen unless you have some active use for it.
19:24:43 <casmith789> which page is the idea on?
19:24:48 <Mu_> gonna sleep
19:24:49 -!- Mu_ has quit [Quit: Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place.]
19:24:50 <TGWi> casmith789: which?
19:24:57 <casmith789> sjohara's idea
19:25:11 <digipeg> character selection
19:25:35 <Eronarn> 20:21 < TGWi> is there a way to make disarming matter? I don't like that it's just for grinding T&D
19:25:40 <Eronarn> re-placing traps, of course
19:25:50 <TGWi> casmith789: character selection yeah
19:26:09 <digipeg> Eronarn: for this, traps have to matter in the first place
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19:26:14 <bmh> my game is seriously broken
19:26:19 <TGWi> it's the "don't hide character options, but instead have a button that makes you play ADOM instead"
19:26:21 <casmith789> cool, thanks
19:26:22 <TGWi> idea
19:26:31 <TGWi> (in a good way though)
19:26:33 <digipeg> bmh: how?
19:26:50 <bmh> digipeg: The ecumenical temple is the temple that I corrupted a few games ago when I won.
19:26:54 <Eronarn> digipeg: if there were more single-use, status-effect-in-cmbat traps, that would matter
19:27:07 <casmith789> T&D would be fun if you could lay traps yourself, and move traps like zot tele traps so they were strategically good
19:27:18 <digipeg> bmh: there is a corrupted temple template :)
19:27:21 <casmith789> *zot/tele
19:27:38 <digipeg> casmith789: yes, planting traps will come, but taht's for much later
19:27:39 <bmh> digipeg: So everything is an overflow altar?
19:27:47 <casmith789> ??corrupted temple
19:27:47 <Henzell> ecumenical temple[5/5]:  If your temple has a bunch of Lugonu altars, congratulations, you've gotten the corrupted version. That explains all the overflow altars.
19:28:02 <bmh> perhaps I should go to bed.
19:28:09 <digipeg> bmh: not everything, just most
19:28:29 <bmh> Lugonu *is* fun to worship. though I doubt a Felid TM of Lugonu would be very fun
19:29:06 <digipeg> bmh: you'll love L when you can desecrate altars yourself :)
19:29:12 <casmith789> The corrupted temple seems to confuse an awful lot of people who have played crawl before the change, and didn't hear of the change. They will learn eventually, though
19:29:18 <bmh> digipeg: I won my only game worshipping him
19:29:25 <digipeg> yay
19:29:42 <bmh> casmith789: I was just confused because 1) I'd never seen it before, 2) when I won I had corrupted the same temple
19:29:43 <casmith789> I like lugonu, apart from the distort branding
19:29:47 <due> <3 lugonu
19:30:03 <bmh> I hate distortion
19:30:12 <digipeg> casmith789: the brandings all make some sense, but altogether, they feel a bit lackluster
19:30:30 <casmith789> hm?
19:30:38 <monky> distortion is wonderful
19:31:20 <sorear> casmith789: zot traps are never strategically good
19:31:28 <sorear> they buff hostile mobs
19:31:34 <bmh> ha. I just got poisoned to death and did my darndest to stay alive
19:31:36 <casmith789> strategically out the way
19:31:38 <casmith789> :)
19:31:38 <bmh> I forgot I was Felid
19:31:50 <digipeg> I think distortion is one of our better brands, both ways.
19:31:58 <TGWi> who coded the new ^o screen again?
19:32:05 <digipeg> TGWi: mostly doy
19:32:08 <bmh> as a player, I don't enjoy distortion. I can never get XP with it
19:32:12 <casmith789> distort should be left in, I'm just not really a fan of using it
19:32:16 <bmh> but as someone said, who needs XP when you have distortion
19:32:17 <digipeg> TGWi: more ideas for Ctrl-o?
19:32:26 <TGWi> digipeg: no, just trying to remember
19:32:54 <digipeg> TGWi: but I designed it :)
19:33:07 <digipeg> also, the first version was done by Matt, I think.
19:45:22 <bmh> ??fighting
19:45:22 <Henzell> fighting[1/1]: The Fighting skill gives you a bonus to accuracy and damage in melee, and improves your hit points by (Fighting * XL) / 5.
19:48:32 <bmh> ??blade hands
19:48:33 <Henzell> blade hands[1/2]: A potent level 5 transmutation spell that grants a large increase to unarmed damage but impedes spellcasting while active. Base damage is 12 + str/4 + dex/4 + UC. Also adds +6 to punch damage. Does not stack with claws.
19:48:43 <bmh> ??blade hands[2]
19:48:43 <Henzell> blade hands[2/2]: You could be casting Blade Hands instead of reading this entry. Get to it.
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19:49:25 <TGWi> lol
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19:59:01 <Eronarn> suddenly gaining access to detect creatures with ash is... weird
19:59:10 <Eronarn> you don't get am essage, you just have non-inspectable {s show up
19:59:27 <digipeg> polish is for aler
19:59:29 <digipeg> later
19:59:34 <digipeg> gameplay for now
20:01:03 <Moriasc> Ale dlaczego nie można mówić po polsku?
20:01:13 <Moriasc> ... Sorry.
20:02:00 <digipeg> wierzba sikiera
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20:29:31 <Eronarn> ...ash uncurse prompt won't let me choose my wielded blunt weapon :||||||
20:30:27 <Eronarn> yup, just read another scroll to verify. awesome
20:30:35 <monky> sounds familiar
20:31:01 <monky> maybe I'm imagining though
20:31:22 <monky> https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2719
20:31:35 <monky> I take it cdo hasn't been updated
20:32:55 <Eronarn> cursed weapon kind of sucks by the way
20:33:13 <Eronarn> i think the god would be fine with just armor / jewellery
20:34:05 <Sjohara> @dpeg: Are you around at the moment?  I wanted to ask you something from the wiki.
20:34:48 <TGWi> !apt vp tmut
20:34:49 <Henzell> Vp (SK_TRANSMUTATIONS)=1
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20:53:57 <TGWi> !apt summoning
20:53:57 <Henzell> Summ: Dr: 0, Dr[black]: 0, Ce: -1, DD: -1, DE: 1, DG: -1, DS: 0, Gh: -1, Dr[green]: 0, Dr[grey]: 0, Ha: -1, HE: -1, HO: 0, Hu: 0, Ke: 2!, Ko: -1, Mf: 0, Mi: -3*, Dr[mottled]: 0, MD: -2, Mu: -2, Na: 0, Og: -3*, Dr[pale]: 0, Dr[purple]: 0, Dr[red]: 0, SE: 1, Sp: -2, Tr: -3*, Vp: 0, Dr[white]: 0, Dr[yellow]: 0
20:54:38 <TGWi> !apt nec
20:54:39 <Henzell> Nec: Dr: 0, Dr[black]: 0, Ce: -1, DD: 1, DE: 2!, DG: -1, DS: 1, Gh: 0, Dr[green]: 0, Dr[grey]: 0, Ha: -2, HE: -2, HO: 0, Hu: 0, Ke: 1, Ko: -1, Mf: -2, Mi: -3*, Dr[mottled]: 0, MD: -3*, Mu: 0, Na: 0, Og: -3*, Dr[pale]: 0, Dr[purple]: 0, Dr[red]: 0, SE: 1, Sp: -1, Tr: -2, Vp: 1, Dr[white]: 0, Dr[yellow]: 0
20:57:47 <TGWi> why is the wiki removing all my line breaks?
20:58:07 <monky> try double linebreaks or \ before linebreaks
20:58:29 <monky> depending on what you want
20:58:38 <TGWi> now I have double line breaks
20:58:40 <TGWi> :|
20:58:58 <monky> you want \ before linebreaks, then
20:59:21 <TGWi> that's silly
21:00:02 <OG17> wiki does whatever it feels like with line breaks
21:00:03 <TGWi> now I have no line breaks and also backslashes all over
21:00:13 <TGWi> fuck it, I'm putting it on pastebin
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