00:01:15 so being not a dev or coder in any sort of why, I never understand why does no one built binary packages with all the libs included anymore? 00:01:56 back in the day it was to make more efficient apps for what would be in today's world low memory systems 00:02:03 or low disk space 00:02:27 but for the most part you dont have to worry about that, am I just missing something obvious in my ignorance 00:02:36 like license BS? 00:02:55 UbAh: if you look, you'll see that there are binary packages for Windows and Mac 00:03:00 yes 00:03:06 thats the norm for those OS 00:03:10 why not lin 00:03:16 not just saying crawl 00:03:19 however, there are hundreds of flavors of Linux and we don't have time to maintain binary packages for each and every one of them 00:03:22 its everywhere 00:03:59 but if you include all the libraries in your binary it would not need to look outside itself right? 00:04:15 so distro independent? 00:04:32 the libraries are different on every distro 00:04:49 so if we included the libraries, it would be using the WRONG ones 00:05:02 I think I am using the terminology wrong net being a coder 00:06:06 trying to think of an example 00:06:08 UbAh: the libraries serve to hide differences elsewhere 00:06:19 ok 00:06:26 the libc on my system will crash if run on yours 00:06:32 so we can't usefull include it 00:06:46 etc 00:07:35 so something like LPG's majesty port has all the different libs already taken into account? 00:08:06 also, libs aren't everything 00:08:28 Linux distros also differ in terms of 00:08:33 - architecture 00:08:37 - file system layout 00:08:56 - available tools (Crawl expects to be able to run either zip or tar) 00:09:07 - system call interface 00:09:12 s/Linux/Unix/ 00:10:12 sry I took us off on a tangent 00:10:50 its just something that bugs me and one of the reason I see people turned off of lin 00:10:56 or nix in general 00:11:36 as you said the fragmentation causes alot of these issues, there should be a way to tie everything together 00:11:42 (##crawl-dev is not the right place to vent about unix philosophy) 00:12:22 I guess thats why there is so much push for better flash and html5 00:12:24 (even if you are right) 00:12:36 thats why i said sry for the tangent 00:12:59 but you seemed knowledgeable enough to help me understand that question about binary builds 00:13:16 anyway any suggestions? 00:13:27 If you include libraries the number of packages we'd have to maintain does fall. 00:13:36 From "thousands" to "about 40" 00:13:43 still a bit too high for my tastes 00:14:25 could try wine 00:14:32 there are 3 main variables - installation location, ABI, and processor family 00:14:38 but it just seems silly to do that when I have the source 00:14:50 libraries are tough 00:15:05 i had problems with sdl_image when i wanted to use pngs for a different game 00:15:06 386 x Linux-2.4 x run-in-place would probably be good enough for 50% of our users 00:15:21 i ended up using bmps cause i couldn't get sdl to agree with me 00:15:53 also, g++ is made of hate 00:16:01 haha 00:17:08 so get to work on the flash or html5 port ;-p 00:17:48 As a non-coder, you don't understand the lock-in properties of C++. 00:17:59 blame my dad 00:18:01 So take my word for it - that would be very, very, very hard. 00:18:08 he was a coder so I chose a different path 00:18:20 how many lines of C++ code does crawl have? 00:18:26 roughly speaking 00:18:27 it's ok, my dad is a sysadmin 00:18:27 the best bet for that would be a flash or html5 dgamelaunch-like interface to cao 00:18:30 Wensley: 300,000 00:18:31 haha 00:18:38 hmm 00:18:47 wow good coincidence 00:19:17 damn that's a lot of code 00:20:06 though I think I will end up getting payed more for less work than he did, he worked on sys V back when he was testing and debuging and then off to moto to work on the GSM code for japan 00:20:17 still ended up with not much money 00:20:45 hm, sloccount says we have 250 lines of objc 00:20:55 that calls for another drink, brb 00:24:56 well wine works... 00:25:30 I'll stick around till I pass out to see if anyone has an answer to get me running natively 00:28:33 wow it runs dog slow on wine 00:43:25 I did suggest doing the build manually 00:48:18 is there a doc to do that? 00:48:30 the install doc just tells me to use make 00:49:03 make V=1, then watch the commands, guess the correct ones, and type them 00:49:37 ok I'll give it a go 00:59:52 make v=1 didnt ask me anything it just built the non tiles version 01:00:00 make V=1 01:04:37 oh well I am out thx for the help 01:19:48 -!- UbAh has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:47:25 03dolorous * r6773e1e76ba9 10/crawl-ref/source/religion.cc: Add formatting fixes. 01:47:32 03dolorous * r6157ab3577af 10/crawl-ref/source/religion.cc: Add missing parentheses. 02:05:48 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 02:30:23 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 02:33:40 hi 02:34:08 make TILES=yes? 02:36:06 522 02:36:26 -!- Pseudonut has joined ##crawl-dev 02:37:03 Feature mimics are going well. 02:42:52 -!- eith has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:47:34 do door mimics only spawn where doors would be naturally? 02:48:24 -!- Pseudonut has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:53:41 Wensley: yes, and not in valuts 02:53:55 Do feature mimics display as 'm' once you know about them, like in ADOM? 02:54:02 because that would be awesome 02:54:07 you said something about the door chasing you? since when do mimics chase you? 02:54:07 No. 02:54:15 Wensley: Feature mimics aren't stationary. 02:54:19 crazy 02:54:26 Hence you get chased by a psychotic, bererk '+' :) 02:54:33 that's wonderful 02:54:36 I love this 02:55:20 (Not berserk) 02:55:53 is there a way to make identified mimics display as 'x'? I tried mon_glyph but it didn't work. 02:56:33 monky: I'll look into it 02:57:22 -!- elliptic has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:00:30 SHOP_WEAPON+random2(NUM_SHOPS-1) 03:01:15 -!- Niccus has joined ##crawl-dev 03:07:06 Curse scrolls should not be unfindable to Ashenzari followers (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2701) by nubinia 03:11:31 Okay, shop names and types... 03:36:19 -!- Pacra has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:47:26 And feature mimics are pushed. 03:47:49 03due * ra0407e59af40 10/crawl-ref/source/ (19 files): Feature mimics! 04:00:42 due: tell me that you didn't make it so that identified mimics change their glyph. I want to be chased by doors and shops! 04:33:05 -!- monky has quit [Quit: what] 04:34:37 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 04:37:14 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:43:02 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 04:44:59 -!- Niccus has quit [Quit: out] 05:12:04 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 05:15:39 jhgzjgjknjknkhjbjkjgkfj7u6ghedr€hghfjdhgdfjhhr@-johhannnnn!!!! 05:19:33 -!- rkd has joined ##crawl-dev 05:19:55 03dolorous * rf3c5144c60b3 10/crawl-ref/source/ (godwrath.cc religion.cc religion.h): Attempt to rebalance Yred's gifts as mentioned on the wiki. 05:20:07 03dolorous * r1555cc9a1f8d 10/crawl-ref/source/ (10 files): Keep track of current god gifts as well as total god gifts. 05:29:11 Anyone in? 05:34:28 !coffee dpeg 05:34:29 * Henzell hands dpeg a mug of irish coffee, brewed by Cerebov. 05:40:58 * bhaak reads rgrm 05:41:38 * bhaak thinks about creating a facebook group "b0rsuk for dcss chief designer" 05:42:14 bhaak: players often thinks he is a developer. 05:42:21 :-D 05:42:52 I am afraid this move would lose greensnark. 05:43:03 There's a price to pay for any progress, I guess. 05:43:52 greensnark is as welcome at unnethack as you are :-) 05:44:26 I would wonder anybody's sanity who'd not welcome greensnark. 05:44:53 -!- dpeg is now known as Medusa 05:47:30 +about 05:49:26 * kilobyte compliments dpeg about her new hair. 05:49:59 bhaak: the most funny bit about b0rsuk's comment on r.g.r.m is that the very first reply in the thread mentioned Yredelemnul. :) 05:50:13 * Medusa is flattered and looks longingly at kilobyte. 05:50:13 :) 05:50:59 tentacle hair mutation would be probably not a good idea 05:54:16 if I think that one of jpeg's modification to one of my temples looks ugly, should I discuss it or just go ahead and revert this part? 05:54:45 kilobyte: if it's minor, just revert 05:55:28 (she modified a majority of temples to support a small amount of gods -- usually, without sacrificing quality, but for mini_greek_temple, I'm not satisfied with the result) 05:55:46 ??gauzy fan 05:55:46 air elemental fan[1/1]: Wield and Evoke to summon air elementals. They will be hostile unless you have high Air magic skill (at least 15). The chance of it summoning something is Evocations skill in 30. 05:56:28 kilobyte: just reinstate the original version 05:56:43 or even better, make the low-temple altars beautiful 05:56:55 I wonder why the weights differ so much 05:57:10 there are some temples with WEIGHT:40 and many with 1 or 2 05:57:55 kilobyte: very rare stuff is generally good, better than a flat distribution, but you can change those numbers just as well 05:58:43 -!- Medusa is now known as dpeg 05:59:02 haha IT WAS JusT A DREAM! ;D;D;D;D;D;D 05:59:22 I thought I had sacced all my stuff on my nemelex char 05:59:26 but was just a dream <3 06:00:00 rkd has dangerous dreams. 06:00:42 indeed 06:02:21 I often have lucid dreams tho, when dreams are most vivid. as I go out with the dog early then go back to sleep for another hour or so 06:02:59 and when I go back to sleep I often dream and remember it. also I often know that I'm dreaming 06:04:15 ??mutarobin 06:04:15 mutarobin[1/1]: Quaff all mutation potions, eat all mutagenic corpses, throw all cure mutation potions and amulets of resist mutation into lava. Worshipping Xom is encouraged; switching to Jiyva is mandatory. Password is robin. 06:05:50 03kilobyte * rc7e65e9ced80 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/branches/ (abyss.des temple.des): Make several of temples support 15 gods. 06:05:50 03kilobyte * r14ec7a86aec5 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/branches/temple.des: Remove a variant of a temple, bump weight of its counterpart. 06:08:33 03kilobyte * r3fa381954749 10/crawl-ref/source/religion.cc: Fix compilation on 64 bit. 06:17:03 03ctownsend79 * r1f43610ae86b 10/crawl-ref/source/spl-goditem.cc: Fix Elvy in-game pacification messaging. 06:17:06 03kilobyte * rb31ae5e700a6 10/crawl-ref/source/spl-goditem.cc: Fix a pronoun for non-genderless monster. 06:17:24 thanks for committing the Ely patch 06:23:54 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 06:24:22 galehar: Allo! 06:24:31 hi! 06:25:20 galehar: forgetting spells interface is excellent, btw. Tested it recently. 06:25:50 good 06:26:13 and did you try noun-verb? 06:26:51 not yet 06:26:53 lemme try 06:29:03 what was the command to protect your stack from getting sacced? 06:30:03 inscribe with !p I 'think 06:30:42 wasn't it !D ? 06:31:51 I think !D protect an item, not a whole stack 06:32:16 but it does protect it against all destructions, not just sack 06:32:20 yeah, indeed 06:32:30 eh ! is level annotation fs 06:32:52 rkd: there is a list of inscriptions in the manual 06:33:05 inscribe an item with !p and drop it on the stack 06:40:18 cat has been renamed to felid, but the enum is still SP_CAT. It breaks the alphabetical order of aptitudes.txt. Should we change SP_CAT to SP_FELID everywhere in the code? 06:41:11 I'm not so sure about that. 06:41:32 can you atleast name it felidae 06:41:32 :( 06:42:16 uhm, that file is not alphabetic at all 06:42:51 DD, MD, DE, HE, SE, Gh... Og, HO, Sp 06:43:20 well, there's human at the top, which makes sense 06:43:42 adjectives for elven and dwarven races are ignored 06:44:29 kilobyte: weren't you against "cat" originally? 06:45:29 dpeg: that's the original name, and I have nothing against it 06:46:18 someone (greensnark?) suggested felids because that doesn't mean it's your ordinary pet cat, but that's the only reason for that name 06:47:21 I also like felids... reminds me less of my allergy. 06:47:34 so, most crawl players are ignorant of latin? ;) 06:47:58 We're undereducated sobs, the proletariat among roguelike players. 06:50:02 I prefer "cat" but have no real preference 06:50:09 Mundus vult decepit. 06:50:29 Erare humanum est. 06:50:34 * dpeg fires at random. 06:50:46 casmith789: self-contradicting statement? 06:51:15 It was saying that my preference was not real, just artificial. Apply that logic and there's no paradox 06:51:32 or contradiction 06:51:34 galehar: noun-verb is also excellent. (Compilation took a while.) 06:51:50 cool 06:52:01 I might tweak it a little bit more 06:52:19 what's missing? 06:52:32 some evokable items 06:52:44 maybe wielding sticks if you know stick to snakes 06:52:58 the code is very flexible 06:54:32 ??dev wiki 06:54:33 dev wiki[1/1]: https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=start 06:54:59 btw, I added a couple of FIXME tags in describe.cc. I use some static maps, but they are just declared as regular ones. If there is a way to make them const it would be more efficient. 07:06:01 -!- TGWi has joined ##crawl-dev 07:18:03 -!- bhaak has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:19:11 "And my brother's in-laws have a cat that clearly worships Trog." 07:19:12 :D 07:19:52 -!- bhaak has joined ##crawl-dev 07:21:24 -!- ortoslon has joined ##crawl-dev 07:21:40 !seen by 07:21:41 I last saw by at Wed Sep 22 14:27:30 2010 UTC (2w 3d 21h 54m 11s ago) quitting with message Quit: leaving. 07:26:31 -!- Textmode has quit [Quit: Over the ages, man has been certain of a great many things. some of these things were even true.] 07:30:51 i liked just calling them cats too 07:40:40 -!- Wensley has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 07:42:22 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:43:19 miscellaneous objects can be evoked directly without wielding using V instead of v 07:43:30 I think this is a bug 07:43:35 it wasn't like that before 07:43:48 or is this an intentional change? 07:44:58 I was also surprised by this, but since there's a specific check for decks, it seems intentional. 07:46:55 I think the previous behavior was that you could press V and choose the item, but then it was auto-wieled 07:48:31 galehar: you said you could try to make a squarelos windows build 07:48:39 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 07:49:25 yep 07:49:30 please 07:49:45 (tiles version) 07:49:54 shouldn't we merge master before? 07:50:44 shrug (i'm not a dev, just a hungry tester) 07:50:52 ah ok 07:51:21 there used to be links to windows build on the wiki page 07:52:09 I might as well make a proper release 07:52:48 anyone as suggestions about makefile options and where to upload files for a windows square LOS release? 07:52:54 http://crawl.develz.org/trunk/ 07:53:29 ortoslon: switching that stuff is quite a bit of work, it'd be better to put it somewhere else 07:53:54 trunk builds on http://crawl.develz.org/trunk/ were squarelos until the last one 07:54:32 well, then there's a link to grab an older version 07:54:48 um i want a new one :) 07:55:10 at least several places of Ashenzari's code would require porting to squarelos 07:55:18 and definitely don't count on me doing that 07:55:19 ah 07:55:54 then could someone just update http://crawl.develz.org/trunk/ with roundlos builds? due? Napkin? 07:56:16 i did when I switched back 07:56:23 sure, that's a matter of triggering the build 07:56:50 -!- TGWi has left ##crawl-dev 07:56:58 ortoslon: if you're so hungry for new versions, try compiling yourself, it's quite easy :) 07:57:01 you might want to wait for Ashenzari to be in a better order, but hey, it's just a few minutes of CPU time, we can update now and later today 07:57:16 (I hope to get all the vital parts done soon) 07:57:39 galehar: i tried a year ago, i got some weird errors and gave up 07:58:03 if it was about missing SDL.h, this has been fixed 07:58:08 ok, triggered new builds 08:00:03 galehar: i have an folder configured for uploads 08:00:10 let me know, if you need access 08:00:26 ok 08:00:53 if we make the metric parts more flexible, we could use squarelos (and others, like Minkovsky's metric) when you suffer tloc miscasts 08:02:50 or when you're confused :) 08:07:59 I wonder what other fun distorted metrics we could use. The requirements are: the usual metric's rules: d(X,Y)=0 iff X=Y, d(X,Z)+d(Z,Y)>=d(X,Y), d(X,Y)=d(Y,X), but with a few other constraints like not changing with translations: d(X,Y)=d(X+a,Y+a) or compactness: no point within LOS range can be farther than 8 on any axis 08:11:21 -!- Snoriasc has joined ##crawl-dev 08:11:42 -!- Snoriasc is now known as Moriasc 08:11:56 aren't you afraid that it would look more like a bug than distorded space? 08:12:48 kilobyte: L3, L4 etc aren't fun, right? 08:14:05 might be, lemme take a look 08:18:38 plump circle LOS http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lp_space 08:18:39 meh 08:18:43 evokable items don't require wielding anymore (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2702) by galehar 08:19:10 all done, ortoslon 08:22:28 do we have a means of debugging Windows stuff? 08:22:44 at least cygwin's gdb can't seem to do non-cygwin builds 08:26:50 there is gdb with msys 08:30:51 galehar: do you have an opinion on round vs square LOS? 08:31:21 well, I don't really like square LOS 08:31:42 okay 08:31:44 but I agree round LOS have gameplay issues solved by square LOS 08:31:57 kilobyte will be very happy ahout this new team member :) 08:32:19 it would be good if we could find a better way to solve this 08:32:21 galehar: there is the other solution: diagonal steps becoming more expensive ... then we could keep round LOS. 08:32:33 yep 08:32:39 galehar: could you name any? The only one is being able to get ranges by counting rather than intuition/ruler. 08:32:58 can we have square LOS and round extra stuff, like haloes and firestorms, because they just look weird 08:33:04 *as square 08:33:18 kilobyte: not again... there is one drawback of round LOS and it is _not_ about counting ranges. 08:33:20 dpeg: not the only solution, but the least invasive 08:33:38 It is about getting in/outside ranges by movement. 08:33:54 dpeg: it's not one of round LOS, it's one of our current hybrid system 08:34:03 The major problem of round LOS solved by square is the fact that approaching a monster orthogonally or diagonally change a lot of things 08:34:05 kilobyte: well, ok 08:34:15 galehar: yes, that's what I mean 08:34:31 And this is turn comes from counting spell ranges in a different metric than movement. 08:34:47 We didn't have this issue before spell ranges... so removing ranges would also solve this. 08:35:12 well, how about we create a 1.4_diagonal branch? 08:35:18 at least give it a try 08:35:24 that is another productive approach, yes 08:35:30 just like by made the square LOS one 08:36:09 it's a minimal change that's trivial to revert, so it's more a matter of a single commit that can be reverted 08:36:12 but yeah 08:36:20 I'm not sure about the number 1.4, though 08:36:33 why? 08:36:39 since it's not the one that gives minimal error 08:37:16 kilobyte is good :) 08:37:25 it does minimize the error for 45 degrees, but we'd want to go for one that has the smallest errors for all angles 08:37:31 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 08:37:32 I've been wondering about this but kilobyte has the solution already. 08:37:53 dpeg: actually, I'm not 100% sure if this particular one is the best 08:38:18 -!- upsy has joined ##crawl-dev 08:38:20 another idea: keep trying to fix the hybrid system. Restore Chebyshev metric for ranges, but max ranges at LOS 08:38:20 because the error cannot be avoided in any metric -- it may be at most placed in different parts 08:39:07 I really want to write an article (for our blog) about the topic. It is intricate and interesting. 08:39:33 the problem is, the number which minimizes the error varies at different ranges 08:40:29 because that's what started it all. We fixed out of LOS firing by making ranges round. But this introduced new problems. Let's got back to the original issue, and fix it in another way: max range = LOS 08:41:10 low ranges are square, long ranges are round 08:43:28 galehar: I think this is one of the hybrid systems kilobyte advocates (and I don't mean this in a negative way -- I have no clue what's best) 08:45:35 well, I think it's the best approach. I'd rather have an imperfect hybrid system but with defaults too little to matter, than a perfect and ugly square LOS system 08:46:01 galehar: I am open for that. 08:46:29 because if we push square LOS, and then say that we want to keep explosions and aura round because they look better that way, we end up with another imperfect hybrid system. 08:46:35 My comment about trashing ranges was no joke either: they introduced the mess, and we can define short ranges (melee, 1.5, 2) by hand. 08:46:44 galehar: I know. 08:46:58 * dpeg lives in a box. 08:47:40 what do you mean thrashing ranges? 08:47:46 no more spell ranges 08:47:59 they're a recent addition (Haran, somewhat like DCSS 0.3) 08:48:15 it is a good idea for distinguishing spells, but the ramifications are ... painful 08:48:36 you mean all spells have LOS range? 08:48:40 yes 08:48:49 and some have very short ranges 08:49:33 we can have 3 tiers, short, medium and long 08:49:36 galehar: with full ranges, the inconsistency between movement and seeing is irrelevant 08:49:45 I agree 08:49:57 galehar: yes, that might actually _improve_ matters in a pure design sense 08:50:25 The difference between range 7 and range 8 is painful to feel/count/use. Short/medium/full would be better, perhaps. 08:50:29 short is square, long is LOS, medium is... a PITA 08:50:56 short should be three squares away or so 08:51:06 a distance players can check intuitively, without counting 08:51:21 doesn't care whether we excludes far diagonals for roundness 08:51:48 care -> matter 08:52:17 I like this approach 08:53:28 galehar: one of us should prepare and present this to the public 08:53:48 I can do once my wife has committed her phd (I am proofing it over the weekend). 08:54:26 I have to go soon. I might have the time to put something up tonight or tomorrow 08:55:05 galehar: cool 08:55:15 let's keep thinking about the matter 08:55:23 there must be a good solution out there 08:55:29 yep 08:55:43 kilobyte input would be useful on the subject tooo 08:55:48 absolutely 08:56:30 -!- bmh has joined ##crawl-dev 08:56:36 I'm going now. Maybe I'll see you later 08:56:38 bye 08:56:40 bye! 08:56:57 galehar: bye! 08:57:06 -!- galehar has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.10/20100914125854]] 08:57:53 chatzilla, now there's an idea. 08:58:03 -!- bmh has quit [Client Quit] 08:58:06 is it better than irssi? 09:01:37 it's browser based 09:01:44 iek 09:01:48 ie, restarting the browser kills it 09:01:51 i like the idea of square middle range with cut corners 09:01:55 and you can't put it on screen 09:02:27 kilobyte: did you follow us? 09:03:11 yeah 09:03:18 it sounds interesting 09:03:24 what do you think about restrict... 09:03:25 ah ok 09:03:34 restrict? 09:06:38 looking at the changelog, it appears that spell ranges are a 0.5 thing 09:07:59 ah, so late 09:08:09 I have a terrible time recalling old versions. 09:08:21 They're always like ten years ago. 09:13:00 for the diagonal penalty with minimal error: if we want to minimize the relative error between d_euc/d_gal for all squares in our current LOS, best sum of errors is for 1.3027, best sum of errors^2 for 1.3164 09:14:03 good stuff 09:14:30 -!- TGWi has joined ##crawl-dev 09:14:31 kilobyte: are you offended if I now think that restricting ranges might solves our issues in a better way? 09:15:08 er... we're looking for the best solution, aren't we? 09:15:12 yes 09:15:31 that you came up with something that has a potential to be better doesn't mean I should stop refining other ideas 09:15:35 But I've seen reasonable people get so far involved with something that they had trouble getting out of it again :) 09:15:56 and I do like simplification that's a part of your proposal 09:15:59 (And I mean both math and crawl.) 09:16:05 re: only 3 ranges: that seriously constricts spells and I wouldn't advise it 09:16:09 It really is Galehar's idea =) 09:16:26 TGWi: sure, but you're not our advisor! 09:16:28 magic dart's range is different than throw frost's is different than bolt of fire's 09:16:30 Oh my word, this is quite a saga, isn't it? 09:16:46 Moriasc: eternal story :) 09:16:47 oh, sorry, didn't realize you were ignoring player input 09:17:03 hmm... it might be better to name it somehow else, as I've been using "Galehar's metric" for his proposal of using a linear combination of Chebyshev and Minkovsky 09:17:06 xD 09:17:13 TGWi: We know what we lose by restricting ranges, and it is okay if you tell us your opinion. 09:17:29 TGWi: but now read your statement again, please. 09:17:31 range 8 v range 7 just means you press . once more before you cast, removing that would be great as far as I'm concerned 09:17:47 kilobyte: Chibovsky metric 09:18:16 st_: ...and it's a space closer to you, and you're one cast down compared to the other spell 09:18:44 kilobyte: let's call it "restricted Haran". He did the ranges in the first place (idea, design, execution), and we're now restricting it (theoretically). 09:19:05 right 09:19:08 (dinner) 09:19:12 dig in 09:20:17 Could also come up with four ranges, of course. 09:24:03 scroll of mapping looks like scroll of paper (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2703) by ortoslon 09:25:11 I wondered if ?DC should look like paper for Ash followers. 09:25:42 like toilet paper 09:26:22 <3 09:26:37 Scroll of Detect Nothing 09:27:06 Scroll of Constant Uselessness 09:29:03 -!- Twilight has joined ##crawl-dev 09:29:10 -!- Guest69616 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:29:39 -!- Twilight is now known as Guest82699 09:30:40 -!- bmh has joined ##crawl-dev 09:31:54 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 09:31:58 btw, I'd also point out that full range for spells doesn't really solve it, as you still approach faster diagonally and with fewer stealth checks 09:32:13 -!- Twilight-1 has joined ##crawl-dev 09:32:31 TGWi: your "it" is not the same as my "it" 09:32:33 I might be misinterpreting what you're trying to fix 09:32:49 It is true that there will be inconsistencies, no matter what. 09:33:21 square doesn't have inconsistencies except whatever metric kilobyte is measuring 09:33:38 As a player, I much prefer square LOS 09:33:40 things behave differently at different angles, this is the problem 09:33:41 15:34 <+galehar> The major problem of round LOS solved by square is the fact that approaching a monster orthogonally or diagonally change a lot of things 09:33:49 and it does! 09:34:10 you could just increase the "noise" level of a diagonal step, without making it take longer 09:34:14 I find that I experience fewer baffling LOS artifacts 09:34:15 that last comment didn't make sense; pretend I said "and that's not true of circular LOS" 09:34:20 ortoslon: you're still faster diagonally 09:34:35 What I hate most is that moving with a monster in tail can get it from out of range into range (or vice versa). 09:34:48 -!- Guest78781 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:35:11 dpeg: and that, and the small 'errors' from rounding spell range 09:35:17 well, and LOS range 09:35:26 -!- Guest82699 has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:35:27 dpeg: yes, that's one of the largest problems with circular LoS 09:35:30 TGWi: full ranges would solve those, right? 09:35:47 TGWi: stealth is fixable trivially -- by a proportionally (well, mostly an exponential proportion, but you can read about probability calculus for details) harder checks diagonally -- and easier orth if we want to balance with status quo 09:35:51 you end up micromanaging a lot 09:35:55 elliptic: we're discussing a system where the full set of ranges is replaced by very few (say 3 or 4) ranges. 09:36:32 dpeg: it's better, but if you're keeping any sub-LOS ranges it's still there sort of 09:36:35 elliptic: I have high hopes! 09:36:58 what was the system with 0.6 LOS by the way? I didn't find that abusable and it seems better than 0.7 LOS 09:37:06 dpeg: any particular reason for having fewer ranges? I have no idea what this is supposed to fix 09:37:28 elliptic: btw, I have a character I can't win. Would you try to go with him? I would like to see how you'Re approaching him. 09:37:48 there _is_ a problem that "restricted Haran" doesn't fix, though: if you land up next to a yaktaur, moving diagonally will get you faster out of range. Or conversely, it would get you faster in melee. 09:37:52 @whereis dpeg 09:37:53 dpeg the Whirler (L18 HaHu), a worshipper of Fedhas, saved on Lair:1 on 2010-10-05 after 72327 turns. 09:38:02 @whereis dpeque 09:38:03 dpeque the Grim Reaper (L22 DSFi), a worshipper of Yredelemnul, saved on D:27 on 2010-10-07 after 110637 turns. 09:38:23 dpeg: just ninja the orb :) 09:38:27 kilobyte: we always have this problem if we use Chebyshev for movement and Euclid for seeing. 09:38:39 elliptic: can't! Not even cTele :) 09:38:47 elliptic: and no haste either. 09:38:48 dpeg: could you please take a dump so we can see if indeed you're in a hard situation? 09:39:14 dpeg: sorry, no time right now to do much... I could take a quick look at a dump though 09:39:20 !log dpeque 09:39:21 250. dpeque, XL1 DSFi, T:54: http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/dpeque/morgue-dpeque-20101005-123237.txt 09:39:32 @dump dpeque 09:39:32 http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/dpeque/dpeque.txt 09:40:00 no spells? :o 09:40:02 elliptic: suppose we only had _two_ ranges available, very short (think Flame Tongue) and full, then the problem would be solved. 09:40:15 Perhaps we can get a 5x5 square in as middle range. 09:40:23 casmith789: it's a fighter :) 09:40:23 dpeg: what about spells that increase in range depending on spell power? that seems quite nice 09:40:29 dpeg: 5x5 square touches the edge of LOS 09:40:33 dpeg: still... 09:40:55 dpeg: which problem is this that would be solved? 09:41:09 casmith789: we have never used range modifiers, apart from Vehumet. 09:41:15 And I think that was a good idea. 09:41:19 dpeg: flame tongue 09:41:22 I mean spells like flame tongue 09:41:27 and sandblast, but with stones 09:41:41 I'm embarrassed by my last game. I found a buckler of rPois and got myself blasted to death by an orc wiz 09:41:52 elliptic: what I cited by Galehar: moving with enemies in tow in/out of range. 09:41:57 dpeg: and rods also 09:42:19 casmith789: ah, I think very small ranges are no problem. 09:42:23 dpeg: well, that's a problem with circular LoS with full-range spells too 09:42:31 enemies in pursuit moving in/out of range are only one issue out of several 09:42:36 TGWi: 5x5 square is a range of just two (Chebyshev) 09:42:48 elliptic: how so? 09:42:49 kilobyte: oh, herp derp 09:43:01 you move with enemies in tow in/out of LoS 09:43:02 kilobyte: still closer to los edge diagonally, etc 09:43:10 same problem 09:43:13 elliptic: by using walls? 09:43:25 dpeg: enemies at edge of LOS can suddenly get two spaces deep into LOS and take another shot 09:43:31 stuff like that 09:43:50 TGWi: double turn? 09:43:57 dpeg: moving diagonally 09:44:10 !learn add bad_ideas fights between two rangers with shields of reflection are governed by the rules of tennis 09:44:10 bad ideas[2486/2486]: fights between two rangers with shields of reflection are governed by the rules of tennis 09:44:14 I'd draw a diagram but I can't remember exactly what the 8-circle looks like 09:44:17 ortoslon: <3 09:44:18 ortoslon: <3 09:44:22 dpeg: sometimes walls are involved (without hiding behind them), but not necessarily 09:44:23 ortoslon: <3 09:44:29 one of the major problems with circular LOS is the fact you need fewer moves to approach a monster diagonally than orthogonally from out of LOS, you'll want to do this if you're using the stealth mechanic 09:44:29 ahhh 09:44:43 or, even if you aren't 09:45:08 There are a number of issues. Don't lump them all together. 09:45:35 dpeg: what casmith789 is saying is a single issue 09:45:45 yes that is one issue 09:45:46 casmith789: again, stealth hardly ever touches discreet problems, so it is not a concern. But movement indeed is. 09:45:49 you don't want to break X again by trying to fix Y 09:46:10 dpeg: also I agree with casmith789: that this issue is the largest one 09:46:24 interesting, to me it's not 09:46:41 square LOS imo is circular LOS. it just looks weird with ASCII 09:46:56 rkd: or with tiles 09:47:01 rkd: looks ever weirder in tiles, I'd suspect. 09:47:09 it looks fine in tiles 09:47:10 dpeg: if a centaur warrior is sleeping and you want to approach it for melee giving it as few turns as possible to shoot you, you have to go by a diagonal 09:47:13 ppl shouldnt be playing tiles anyway 09:47:15 ;D 09:47:20 this has nothing to do with stealth 09:47:21 rkd: +1 :p 09:47:22 it looks good except in open areas 09:47:30 elliptic: this issue is ancient, has nothing to do with 0.5's spell ranges. 09:47:31 kilobyte: because you can assume it will wake up instantly 09:47:38 dpeg: yes, certainly 09:47:48 syllogism: right, and that's because in closed areas there is no difference between the metrics :p 09:47:58 dpeg: one of the main reasons why people like square LoS is that it fixes this ancient issue very neatly 09:48:10 kilobyte: open as in in areas where you can clearly the square completely :P 09:48:14 see 09:48:36 syllogism: I don't think aesthetics is the first concern when playing a roguelike 09:48:38 :P 09:49:17 syllogism: we almost never have diagonal corridors, and even when we do, you don't have an immediate comparison so you don't notice that something is distorted 09:49:34 It is possible to make a fully consistent system with only Chebyshev. But then you have to be prepared for square explosions, halos and whatnot. 09:49:58 kilobyte: LOS difference in checkered vaults is pretty noticable 09:50:00 dpeg: also, circular spell ranges just exacerbate the type of problem I mentioned 09:50:16 dpeg: 3x3 clouds already do that 09:50:19 because halos and explosions are minor, is it not possible to distort the system slightly and have them exploding in circles, but keep the main ranges & LOS square 09:50:21 square zombies http://supercratebox.com/images/screenshot_02-chicken-katana-standoff.png 09:50:39 it's a casualty of using a grid 09:50:55 dpeg: try that proposed shotgun-area spells. Or anything that has anything to do with angles. 09:51:03 We can drop console support and all go hex tiles. 09:51:06 also this entire issue is completely subjective 09:51:12 no 09:51:18 for instance, when zigrobin was playing under square LOS, he used firestorm and it didn't seem bad to me, despite being circular 09:51:20 kilobyte: again, please? 09:51:30 dpeg: I won't be playing it then :( 09:51:50 by "explosions" that would need to be made square, we mainly mean the storms, right? 09:51:53 casmith789: enough people would 09:51:57 elliptic: yes 09:52:08 I know there is cleansing flame and such also, but those are really minor 09:52:36 dpeg: there's a nice proposal that would add an alternative to single-target/bolt/explosion spells: a cone 09:52:42 and the storms are minor too IMO, shouldn't base decisions around how L9 spells that most chars never see look 09:52:53 kilobyte: I see 09:52:55 kilobyte: is it different in square LOS? 09:52:56 dpeg: either narrow like DoomRL's shotgun or wider 09:53:08 like doomrl's double shotgun :) 09:53:09 wouldn't you just extend it further? 09:53:12 the idea is that cones are less metric dependent 09:53:22 oh 09:53:23 TGWi: angles go to hell in square 09:54:01 angles don't make much sense in circular either unless you actually make the movement metric non-square 09:54:03 90° degree cones should be okay 09:54:22 kilobyte: in that it's weird to calculate, or that it's subjectively ugly? 09:56:03 dpeg: by the way, I'd actually like it if TSO halo were square from a gameplay perspective... currently it suffers from all the problems with circular spell range, especially when you only get four squares of halo 09:56:03 i remember that jeff lait gave a talk on discretization in roguelikes at IRDC'09 but don't remember if he'd said anything that hasn't been discussed here 09:56:43 maneuvering so that you are never meleeing stuff diagonally is stupid, for instance 09:56:59 TGWi: both; the first means you sacrifice either the angle or the area, the latter is quite obvious 09:57:01 yes, but only for L1 haloes is that a major issue 09:57:14 so you could just make L1 haloes the range of freeze, and keep the rest the same 09:57:30 casmith789: still annoying with invisible monsters 09:57:38 not a big deal though 09:57:54 It is just a single step to make and range 1 halos are okay in corridors, so I didn't consider them to a problem back then. 09:58:09 elliptic: haloes are mostly fixed, they don't use that L1-like diamonds except for the four square case 09:58:13 obviously square is better gameplaywise, but just wondering if it would look better 09:58:32 square LOS's problems as far as I can see are: aesthetics. Any others? 09:58:58 casmith789: can you explain that "obviously" and "better gameplaywise"? 09:59:15 in regards to haloes under square LOS 09:59:18 kilobyte: easier if you quickly mention the problems 09:59:27 sorry if you didn't catch my context 09:59:46 it wouldn't make sense to have an inconsistant system, was my point. 09:59:52 casmith789: since there is only one aspect that is has that several other proposals we investigated don't have: counting far ranges by hand rather than intuition/ruler 10:00:06 for what it is worth, I played with square LoS on CDO for a few weeks or however long it was up, and then it felt really unnatural to go back to circular LoS 10:00:12 it looked wrong 10:00:36 casmith789: and doing that by intutition is, well, more intuitive 10:00:36 same here 10:00:40 elliptic: this always happens... no matter if we change glyphs, colours, or in this case, range. Becoems natural quickly. 10:00:41 kilobyte: huh? currently ranges are really difficult to count and don't make any intuitive sense 10:00:52 casmith789: so this issue is actually a _downside_ of squarelos 10:00:54 currently meaning 0.7 10:01:15 which issue is sorry? 10:01:26 counting spell ranges? 10:01:37 casmith789: the other issues are all fixed in any of these: Euclidean, Galehar's, hex; partially in restricted Haran 10:01:54 kilobyte: I find it incredibly strange that you think circular spell ranges are easier to use 10:02:06 Yes, personally I think hex would be the best system, but hard to do on a square grid 10:02:20 since one of the main objections to them on ##crawl when they were first implemented were that they were not 10:02:21 if you want me to point out some issues in euclidean, etc I could 10:02:34 and hex is cool, but I'm pretty sure that's infeasible 10:02:57 kilobyte: also, unless you are making movement consistent with LoS metric, other issues aren't fixed 10:03:09 hex is doable, but requires Unicode 10:03:39 elliptic: these proposals do have it consistent -- what are you talking about? 10:03:58 elliptic: the only systems that do have that issue are 0.5 and 0.7 10:04:12 kilobyte: point me in the direction of a euclidean proposal such that it takes sqrt(a^2+b^2) turns to get to a square (a,b) away 10:04:29 I haven't seen any such nor do I have any idea how you intend to do that 10:04:48 FR: allow movement in arbitrary direction 10:05:14 it's an approximation that even in the worst case (2,1) has an error of only a few percent 10:05:42 and Galehar proposed an alternative that has no error at all, at the cost of a hardly noticeable distortion 10:05:53 errors build up 10:06:01 maybe you want to go 6,3 away 10:06:17 also, why bother with stuff that needs messy approximations? 10:06:35 also, there are huge gameplay implications for diagonal movement taking longer 10:06:56 stuff getting double moves against you whenever you do that, for instance 10:07:03 that would be a huge change to crawl 10:07:10 they are slightly softened by variable monster speed 10:07:15 not really 10:07:19 you'd need to go ~30 squares in that direction to gain/lose a single square of advantage, that's strictly irrelevant for any ranges larger than LOS 10:07:55 variable monster speed currently doesn't give the opportunity to get double-yaktaur-shot 10:08:53 elliptic: do you know why everyone repeats yaktaurs over and over? Because take a look at the list of ranged threats of speed 10 that don't have haste 10:08:59 stone giants 10:09:00 prolonged diagonal movement would. i see 10:09:20 ortoslon: a single diagonal move could 10:09:34 kilobyte: liches also 10:09:35 orc priest 10:09:41 giant rocks aren't branded 10:09:41 elliptic: liches are speed 12 10:09:43 orc priest is a good one too 10:09:47 ancient liches are 10:09:49 not regular ones 10:09:50 @??lich 10:09:51 lich (15L) | Speed: 10 | HD: 20 | Health: 57-97 | AC/EV: 10/10 | Damage: 1513(drain) | Flags: 07undead, evil, spellcaster, see invisible | Res: 06magic(293), 02cold++, 03poison | XP: 3413 | Sp: b.cold (3d29), paralyse, greater demon, animate dead, iron shot (3d34), teleport self / b.draining (3d24), animate dead, summon undead, throw frost (3d11), crystal spear (3d40) / b.fire (3d29), confuse, haste, b.dr.. 10:09:55 elliptic: so you have that game-endind double turn right there 10:10:34 fire giants too, monsters with wands, uniques 10:10:41 dragons 10:10:52 kilobyte: look, I think you just don't want to back down and admit that full euclidean could have problems, but this is getting ridiculous 10:10:56 -!- elliptic has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:11:09 I'm inclined to agree 10:11:20 beh... try to answer that to a closet socket 10:11:28 s/closet/closed/ 10:16:17 It is always easier to argue for players than for developers. 10:19:20 let's just abolish all 10 aut actions and be done with it :p 10:20:46 I don't think that the movement/sight inconsistency is a bigger insult to good design than Okawaru or speed, by the way. 10:21:21 * ortoslon whispers "or confusion" 10:21:34 or that, yesah 10:21:38 yeah, I don't see players backing off and adjusting their angle of approach to monsters 10:21:53 kilobyte: oh, that does happen, I can tell you 10:22:05 but balance is more distorted by the other bits 10:22:06 ortoslon: do you mean the confusion spell? or meph? 10:22:38 all forms of confusion, I thikn 10:22:48 yeah 10:23:51 !learn add bad_ideas give 3 potions of healing to all uniques 10:23:52 bad ideas[2487/2487]: give 3 potions of healing to all uniques 10:24:10 as I see it, the range etc. problem is more an intereface issue, whereas we're still plagued by severe balance problems 10:24:56 players just can't cast spells and lose a percentage of their attacks, monsters are nearly paralyzed effectively 10:25:44 kilobyte: yes, plus the drowning 10:25:55 !learn add bad_ideas replace food clock with possibility of uniques hoovering gold and buying cool gear from shops 10:25:56 bad ideas[2488/2488]: replace food clock with possibility of uniques hoovering gold and buying cool gear from shops 10:25:57 better monster AI could be a good confusion nerf 10:26:14 ortoslon: do you have a book you're copying from? 10:26:34 haha no 10:26:41 A levitating incunabulum: 101 of How To Screw Your Roguelike 10:27:15 i've added far more than 101 bad ideas (more like 505) 10:28:04 melee monsters + confusion is relatively balanced I think if there's no water 10:28:32 they have a chance of hitting you and a chance of running, meaning you can't hit them that often before they unconfuse 10:29:01 -!- Twilight has joined ##crawl-dev 10:29:27 -!- Twilight is now known as Guest96429 10:29:53 idea: when a monster would blunder into water, he gets a saving throw to stop instead 10:30:10 kilobyte: sounds good 10:30:31 as far as I know, players don'T automatically die either when entering water? 10:30:58 think it depends on how burdened you are dpeg 10:32:04 -!- ortoslon has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:32:05 casmith789: sure 10:32:15 can assume that monsters are not burdened 10:32:22 they're no pack rats, they live there 10:32:29 -!- monky has joined ##crawl-dev 10:33:19 yup 10:33:32 -!- ortoslon has joined ##crawl-dev 10:36:04 but they should totally get eaten by a shark if the deep water contains one 10:37:13 <3 sharks 10:37:30 "You see a red blob on the surface. You feel more experienced." 10:37:47 except, all sharks currently are friendly to monsters 10:38:30 could be changed 10:40:23 would be fun if sharks attacks anything that steps into water 10:40:24 it'd be tricky to do monster infighting with our current faction code 10:40:41 what with other fish? 10:45:30 kilobyte: Only if they're badly injured :-) 10:46:38 now with all the tentacles 10:46:42 ??dark tunnel 10:46:42 volcanoes[1/2]: A timed portal vault ("a dark tunnel") that shows up in early mid-game (Lair, Orc and Hive). Contains fire-themed monsters, fire-themed loot, and a great big whopping Volcano that explodes in flame clouds every now and then. Enjoy your stay, don't forget your cremation urn! 10:46:47 are we gonna see octopusses soon? :PO 10:48:00 there are already kraken 10:49:04 -!- bmh has quit [Quit: bmh] 10:53:13 I hate when you get to the last of the pistachios 10:53:26 the ones who were to hard to open by hand 10:58:24 use powertools 10:58:29 watch them explode 10:58:46 Wait, "bog mummy", "firecrab", "sky beast", "laboratory rat", "porcupine"? 10:58:52 * kilobyte ponders due's last commit. 10:58:54 cast Lee's Rapid Nut Cracking 11:02:54 kilobyte, what commit is that? 11:04:43 monster infighting is less interesting that people generally assume 11:07:05 * dpeg likes Australians for their loose screws. 11:07:59 Zaba: a0407e59, enum.h 11:08:07 ??olliphant 11:08:07 I don't have a page labeled olliphant in my learndb. 11:08:08 oh 11:08:11 ??hellephant 11:08:11 hellephant[1/2]: A pachyderm born in the fires of Hell; it blinks, breathes fire, and hits really, really hard. 11:08:23 why is there no olliphants ;/ 11:08:28 rkd: the spelling is "oliphaunt" 11:08:54 whatever 11:08:57 :) 11:09:07 kilobyte: I trust due that he's not overdoing that, and if so, he'd be able to retract. 11:09:32 In general, it is so hard so inject humour in an environment with many developers that I am willing to let him go. 11:09:38 We can always reevaluate later. 11:10:40 humour -- people are deadly serious about it. 11:10:54 dpeg: no, I'm not complaining, I'm merely pointing those out 11:11:04 since they were not mentioned in the commit message 11:11:25 ortoslon: with as many people as we have on board (not even counting players), it'd be impossible to add anything like Killer Klowns, death cobs, Maxwell's Silver Hammer to the game. 11:11:42 kilobyte: yes, due's commit messages are always short. 11:11:49 that one isn't short 11:11:52 !tell due Your commit messages are short! 11:11:53 dpeg: OK, I'll let due know. 11:11:57 it mentios a lot of things related to feature mimics.. 11:12:00 mentions* 11:12:15 So it is okay that someone adds hellephants, for example. 11:12:30 laboratory rats don't fit Crawl well, but for example, bog mummy is just fine 11:12:34 a lot of the stuff in ??bad_ideas should be nerfed and added 11:12:37 or hellephants, for that matter 11:12:53 insane? yes. Unacceptable? no. 11:12:57 kilobyte: especially as they have AT_TRAMPLE and actually waith in the Vestibule now 11:13:00 kilobyte: :) 11:13:10 If in doubt, choose the weird one. 11:13:21 did I mention that sanity is for the weak? 11:13:32 * sorear supports the re-addition of guardian robots 11:13:51 all i see in it is the mimic stuff 11:14:07 kilobyte: we've seen it recently, but it's a point that can use repitition 11:14:15 upsy: due added just enums, no actual monsters 11:14:21 oh 11:14:23 sorear: dancing weapons? Or orbs of fire? 11:14:31 there 11:14:32 http://vimeo.com/15479617 11:14:34 badass 11:14:56 There _is_ the problem that we have too many monsters already and just adding will not do... but at least I am aware of that,. 11:18:40 -!- bmh has joined ##crawl-dev 11:19:52 are there any ideas for improving gila monsters or crocodiles? If I recall correctly, they're currently the same (pure melee, same damage, hp?) except one has a poisonous corpse 11:20:26 no ideas I am aware of 11:20:30 same for death yaks and elephants, mostly 11:20:34 kilobyte: no! 11:20:48 are both gilas and crocodiles cold-blooded? 11:20:54 elephants trample 11:21:12 and for yaks, I have a proposal that strengthens their herd aspect, including stampede 11:21:18 dpeg: that's only a minor difference; they for all practical purposes fill the same niche 11:21:27 yeah, that idea is good 11:22:21 @??death yak 11:22:21 death yak (08Y) | Speed: 10 | HD: 14 | Health: 55-95 | AC/EV: 9/5 | Damage: 30 | Res: 06magic(93) | Chunks: 09poison+contam | XP: 1057. 11:22:24 @??elephant 11:22:24 elephant (03Y) | Speed: 10 | HD: 9 | Health: 52-83 | AC/EV: 8/2 | Damage: 20, 5 | Res: 06magic(60) | XP: 430. 11:23:24 we've never seriously discussed monster removal (like we discussed for species, spells etc.) 11:23:32 I guess there'd be a number we could just dispense with 11:23:33 !learn add bad_ideas make DCSS manual available only as an in-game manual book 11:23:34 bad ideas[2489/2489]: make DCSS manual available only as an in-game manual book 11:24:08 !learn add bad_ideas You can only file one bad idea per CAO/CDO win. 11:24:09 bad ideas[2490/2490]: You can only file one bad idea per CAO/CDO win. 11:24:27 i'd be in huge debt! 11:24:32 cool 11:25:00 you pay it off with good ideas 11:25:22 ??good ideas 11:25:23 bad ideas[1/2490]: A tree race, that moves super slowly but can spread roots to scout ahead. Gains different fruits it can drop from its branches as it goes up in level. Note: to read this whole list, visit http://crawl.akrasiac.org/learndb.html#bad_ideas 11:25:40 lol @ redirect 11:26:01 upsy: shoplist was my idea iirc 11:26:46 dpeg: about that game of yours... you do have plenty of kick-ass jewelry in shops, why don't you use those? I didn't look at armour and weapons, too. 11:26:51 that really is a good one 11:27:30 dpeg, removing some monsters sounds good, especially given all the new ones added recently 11:27:37 none with multiple resists, but stuff like {-TELE rC+ EV+6 Int+2} is helluva better than that str+4 you're wearing 11:27:52 I read greensnark's article on the history of stone soup...so many features I take for granted that weren't there in original crawl 11:28:07 kilobyte: thanks, will have another look 11:28:19 if you have a good antimagic weapon zot:5 should be not to bad 11:28:44 Zaba: yes, just getting used to the idea and then collecting ideas should work 11:28:45 though I guess they're rare without god gifts 11:29:27 D:1 monsters are really boring, for example 11:30:58 well.. 11:31:15 lol 11:31:16 there is little variety in them, indeed. 11:31:33 I polymorph an elephant like 6 times, then it polymorphed into an elephant again 11:31:33 :P 11:32:24 There are not so many terribly interesting things you can do with D:1 monsters. 11:33:20 i want to polymorph a unique into an elephant 11:40:24 if you could poly items, how many zaps would it take to turn a stone into the Orb? 11:40:28 hmm 11:40:45 ortoslon: empty question 11:40:52 We learn from the mistakes of others. 11:40:56 can you do that in nethack? 11:41:07 upsy: yes, it is called polypiling 11:41:20 oh i didn't know 11:41:24 I think I was reading about it once 11:41:45 @??giant firefly 11:41:45 giant firefly (12k) | Speed: 16 | HD: 7 | Health: 15-28 | AC/EV: 1/18 | Damage: 8 | Flags: fly | Res: 06magic(65) | Vul: 09poison | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 241. 11:41:51 reading the nethack wiki is a good way of convincing myself to never play it 11:42:39 but even non-playing crawl people are obsessed with nethack! ;-) 11:43:25 what the hell 11:43:43 invis added glow after I've casted it 11:44:30 ...of course? 11:44:49 haste and invis both do that 11:44:51 I mean, felt like it added it after a couple of turns 11:45:01 yes, they do 11:45:06 Any new roguelikes to watch, lately, btw? I was hoping to dig into that multiplayer Angband sometime soon. 11:45:16 you can haste and invis but you'll get to glow after a few turns probably 11:45:29 rkd: this is one of the reasons why people distrust the invis spell 11:45:56 cause I went invis. invis went out, couple turns later i went invis again. then killed some monsters, then suddenly I had yellow glow and all monsters just woke up 11:46:10 Would a 'cancel all buffs' cantrip be useful / broken? 11:46:11 invis is great for stabbing but don't chain it like that 11:46:12 and I got 2 mutations, including rage 11:46:13 ^^ 11:46:20 Moriasc: DoomRL, Sewerjacks. aren't too new tho 11:46:36 I would like to hear opinion on Brogue. 11:46:37 rkd: glow = corona = you're not invisible any more 11:46:48 well yes, haste and invis both add glow at the start and then over time, surprised you haven't encountered it before 11:46:59 yea had no idea it added over time 11:47:01 Sewerjacks, eh? Google, bring me visions of this wonder. 11:47:17 I don't haste that much 11:47:19 And Brogue, lol? 11:47:26 and invis I've never used pretty much 11:47:46 A roguelike where you're in a shoe / are a shoe / shop for shoes? 11:47:55 ??helix card 11:47:55 helix card[1/2]: Card power 0 adds random mutation, removes random mutation, or both. Card power 1 adds either a random or good mutation on a coinflip. Card power 2 removes either a bad or a random mutation on a coinflip, and then either deletes a bad mutation and adds a random one, or deletes a random mutation and adds a good one. 11:48:18 ??deck of wonder 11:48:19 I don't have a page labeled deck_of_wonder in my learndb. 11:48:24 ??wonder 11:48:24 I don't have a page labeled wonder in my learndb. 11:48:35 djztiuziiiiiiiadffgggfdfgfhtjgz5utzituizukziuku 11:48:50 jzswvbngh dpeg, your Polish is coming along! 11:49:05 spider on the keyboard? 11:49:10 more like cat 11:49:16 rkd: son! 11:51:22 dpeg: to be fair, killer klowns, death cobs, and MSH are really silly 11:51:26 especially MSH, what's that about 11:51:57 TGWi: did you read what we wrote back there? 11:52:14 dpeg: I skimmed it backwards 11:52:18 that's about the same, right? 11:52:22 adding humour is hard, we like Killer Klowns, end of story 11:52:47 If we try to reach concensus, all edgy pieces will go away and nothing wacky will be left. 11:52:48 but msh is a pop culture reference (gasp!) 11:52:50 So we don't. 11:52:59 if adding humour is hard, nethack must be at a better development stage than crawl! :p 11:53:01 * casmith789 hides 11:53:11 about 0% of people dislike hellephants 11:53:17 the ones that don't aren't people 11:53:39 As for D:1 monsters becoming dull... if I were a roguelike I'd offer the main dungeon a choice from among several different 'biomes' or 'themes' what have you, so that each time the spread of common monsters is slightly different. 11:53:42 dpeg: brogue looks nice, will tell more tomorrow 11:54:01 ortoslon: thank you! 11:54:13 re: gila monsters, replace them with chameleons that are the same but turn invisible 11:54:25 now crocs are totally boring 11:54:27 I should add that to new_monsters 11:56:00 God, my English. If I were WRITING a roguelike... or 'biomes' or 'themes' or what have you. 11:56:55 I sort of like the idea of changing dungeon monster frequencies per game, but that's just asking for balance issues 11:57:30 D:1 could get cute monsters but they might get dull/annoying for frequent players 11:57:40 What does the RNG care for a perfectly fair and easy game each time? 11:57:45 I'd rather just add more variety 11:57:56 dpeg: brogue looks pretty cool, setting it up now 11:58:14 TGWi: how to add variety to D:1 :( 11:58:24 pile on more monsters! 11:58:28 Yeah, definitely going to give Brogue a go. 11:58:38 as for brogue, I don't know if it happens for anyone else, but to get inventory item names to display I had to edit the code a bit 11:58:41 like porcupines! or skunks 11:59:05 monky: you should send a bug report 11:59:23 hm I guess 11:59:40 Ick. libtcod. 11:59:53 Skunk could be a cool monster. Releases stinking clouds all about the place and doesn't afraid of anything. 12:00:02 yeah libtcod is a bit annoying 12:00:16 Moriasc: yeah, wimpy in melee but has meph as escape spell 12:00:33 at least brogue comes with sane fonts 12:00:48 not default libtcod 8x8 eyerape 12:01:04 it was a bit huge when I ran it 12:01:10 hey guys what if d:1 had rabbits, which have no attacks but reliably produce a single clean chunk when killed 12:01:21 Yeah, I like this. 12:01:27 TGWi: lol new_monsters 12:01:37 Though whatever cool move porcupines get, don't give it to spiny frogs too, please please please. 12:01:45 brogue's fonts are not "sane" 12:02:04 heheheh 12:02:08 at least, not "sane" to someone who has experienced libfreetype 12:02:12 i'm playing the windows version, maybe it's different 12:03:31 also, it's much laggier than an rxvt-unicode of the same screen area 12:03:58 We invented entry vaults to make D:1 more interesting. 12:04:19 TGWi: "more variety" is fairly non-descript, given the task at hand. 12:04:29 in monsters, rather 12:04:45 sure, but _how_ 12:04:48 most of them are just melee with the numbers switched around 12:04:51 suck 12:04:52 skunks and porcupines! 12:04:57 A XL 1 character may have as little as 6 HP. 12:05:06 weak statues! 12:05:20 after you have gained a deck from nemelex, does the previous stuff you've sacced get cleared? 12:05:22 -!- Moriasc_ has joined ##crawl-dev 12:05:29 sacced lots of stuff to try and get wonders 12:05:34 but got summonings :S 12:05:42 or weak trampling monsters 12:06:11 I thought of weak trampling monsters too but didn't like them for two reasons 12:06:26 rkd: the category you got that deck for gets its counter reduced, but other categories don't suffer 12:06:29 1) you sort of have to be strong to trample 12:06:41 2) it makes elephants less nifty by the time you see them 12:07:39 maybe even some kind of weak caster 12:07:51 summoner than only summons bats 12:07:55 *that 12:07:58 that sounds annoying 12:08:07 There are long lists of early monster proposals somewhere. 12:08:18 most enchantments would be fine on D:1 since they scale in threat by depth 12:08:33 like, if there were an early caster with slow it could still be safe to take on alone 12:08:39 cool, so even tho I'm not getting a wonders deck now, it is still "there" and accumilating as I sacc more untill I get a wonders deck 12:08:40 -!- Moriasc has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:08:43 nicely done devs ;o 12:08:48 -!- Moriasc_ is now known as Moriasc 12:09:08 rkd: sure it is 12:09:17 man I do have a weird luck in this game, like 200 turns after I get rage mutation on my spen I get a cure mut potion ;D 12:09:19 meph does damage, though :( 12:09:26 kilobyte: isn't it like 1d2? 12:09:32 rkd: alas, you get wonders decks by spamming destruction decks 12:10:01 I used to stack everything I found in different piles for different decks 12:10:07 and then sacc the pile when I wanted a certain deck 12:10:16 but seems it's best to just sacc everything as I see it 12:10:45 kilobyte: maybe a special variant of meph that makes a line of clouds 1 thick, so you can get out of it more often 12:10:56 TGWi: oh, indeed... a bit worse for nagas 12:11:06 bzzt wrong... nagas are rPois :p 12:11:11 rkd: no, not really 12:11:12 ??bad ideas[365] 12:11:13 bad ideas[365/2490]: option for text adventure-like controls. "THROW SPEAR AT OGRE" "What spear?" "THROW JEWELLED SPEAR AT OGRE" "What ogre?" "QUIT" 12:11:19 kilobyte: :P 12:11:29 ??bad ideas[362] 12:11:29 bad ideas[362/2490]: Nemelex worshippers' lowest title should be Hoover 12:11:34 rkd: ^ 12:11:57 perhaps a healer 12:12:07 is there a heal other monster spell? 12:12:25 Perhaps there an opening for another low-level, low-threat malediction or two, in general. 12:12:34 *there's 12:12:38 corona is a monster spell 12:12:56 it's also barely used, which is good 12:14:47 what wiki page would be appropriate for this? 12:14:55 * sorear thinks 50-70% of Crawl's monster set could go 12:15:06 me too 12:15:45 dpeg: From the first two rooms brogue looks pretty neat 12:16:00 however, my computer isn't quite up to spec for libtcod-based games 12:16:03 starting dcss:brainstorm:monster:early 12:17:14 sorear: 50%? :P 12:17:46 or should this go in new_monsters? I hope not because I don't have solid ideas and that page is bloated 12:18:14 some of new_monsters could go into your page 12:18:17 like porcupines 12:23:48 heh 12:24:16 @?rakshasha 12:24:17 unknown monster: "rakshasha" 12:24:25 @?rakshasas 12:24:25 unknown monster: "rakshasas" 12:24:27 @?rakshasa 12:24:28 rakshasa (08R) | Speed: 10 | HD: 10 | Health: 38-71 | AC/EV: 10/14 | Damage: 20 | Flags: 05demonic, see invisible, !sil | Res: 06magic(133), 03poison | XP: 1071 | Sp: rakshasa summon, blink, invisibility, teleport self. 12:24:54 ??electric 12:24:54 I don't have a page labeled electric in my learndb. 12:24:56 ??electrical 12:24:57 I don't have a page labeled electrical in my learndb. 12:27:07 @?vapour 12:27:07 vapour (11v) | Speed: 10 | HD: 12 | Health: 30-53 | AC/EV: 0/12 | Flags: 11non-living, see invisible, lev, !sil | Res: 13magic(immune), 11elec+++, 03poison | XP: 900 | Sp: b.lightning (3d18). 12:30:11 @?rupert 12:30:12 Rupert (04@) | Speed: 10 | HD: 16 | Health: 123 | AC/EV: 0/10 | Damage: 21 | Flags: spellcaster, see invisible | Res: 06magic(106) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 2993 | Sp: paralyse, confuse, berserker rage. 12:30:43 Sp: veni, vidi, vici. 12:31:32 damn rupert 12:35:35 I haven't played brogue much, but I remember mostly the LOS and swimming being interesting 12:38:06 @??rat spells:zap 12:38:06 Unknown spell name: 'zap' in 'zap' 12:38:08 @??rat spells:shock 12:38:09 rat (07r) | Speed: 10 | HD: 1 | Health: 1-4 | AC/EV: 1/10 | Damage: 3 | Flags: !sil | Res: 06magic(1) | XP: 1 | Sp: shock (d8). 12:38:26 why are all conjurations overpowered at hd 1 for monsters :( 12:38:31 @??rat spells:shock hd:-3 12:38:31 rat (07r) | Speed: 10 | HD: -3 | Health: 1-4 | AC/EV: 1/10 | Damage: 3 | Flags: !sil | Res: 06magic(1) | XP: 1 | Sp: shock (d7). 12:38:35 @??rat spells:shock hd:-10 12:38:35 rat (07r) | Speed: 10 | HD: -10 | Health: 1-4 | AC/EV: 1/10 | Damage: 3 | Flags: !sil | Res: 06magic(1) | XP: 18 | Sp: shock (d2). 12:38:38 @??rat spells:shock hd:-9 12:38:39 rat (07r) | Speed: 10 | HD: -9 | Health: 1-4 | AC/EV: 1/10 | Damage: 3 | Flags: !sil | Res: 06magic(1) | XP: 14 | Sp: shock (d3). 12:38:46 @??rat spells:stone arrow 12:38:47 Unknown spell name: 'stone' in 'stone' 12:38:50 @??rat spells:stone_arrow 12:38:50 rat (07r) | Speed: 10 | HD: 1 | Health: 1-4 | AC/EV: 1/10 | Damage: 3 | Flags: !sil | Res: 06magic(1) | XP: 1 | Sp: stone arrow (3d6). 12:38:56 there we go, we can have an enemy with shock as long as it has -9 HD 12:39:12 is that the only factor? 12:44:02 I think so 12:49:27 Yeah, I just browsed through the entire catalogue of libtcod projects. Interesting enough, many of them... 12:49:47 oh sure 12:49:51 libtcod is great 12:49:54 it just sucks 12:50:00 at a different level 12:54:20 Yeah, it's a kit, after all. I can see why the creators of a such a vast, venerable project as DC:SS would look down on it. 12:54:32 Creators? I did mean to write curators. 12:55:23 Moriasc: you don't need to snark like that. dcss sucks *more* 12:55:59 haha. 12:56:20 a roguelike that is not even in text is not a real one 12:56:29 I thought it was the most beautiful of the classic roguelikes. 12:56:44 * Moriasc shrugs. 12:58:01 I'm sure a roguelike that is only XML wouldn't either be called a real one despite being only text :-) 12:59:43 I mean, what's the point of pretending to be text when you're graphical? That's just adding a restriction for no gain. 13:00:00 real text -> ssh, ttyrec, termcast, DGL, ... 13:00:21 real graphics -> full freedom to show anything you want 13:00:29 fake text -> uhm...? 13:01:41 fake text -> excuse to not do graphics, full control over text appearance 13:01:48 Roguelike, pseudo-roguelikes (like Dwarf fortress) are awesome because they don't have to depict and animated everything that goes on in their gameplay- they can just focus on gameplay alone. 13:01:54 03dolorous * rc90c44a07819 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-info.cc: Add formatting fix. 13:01:55 artificial restriction creates art :) 13:02:06 03dolorous * re572b6558162 10/crawl-ref/source/ (mon-util.cc monster.cc): Set hardcoded undead poison resistance in the right place. 13:02:30 I guess sticking with traditional, familiar text is just a lot classier than inventing a lot of crude pictograms. 13:02:44 you see, some people enjoy those pseudo-text tiles for NetHack, but I don't see anything good in them 13:02:47 bhaak, yeah, totally 13:03:13 kilobyte: they are easier to design :-) 13:03:27 03kilobyte * r6108406d5b6d 10/crawl-ref/INSTALL.txt: Update the install instructions, mention Debian package names. 13:03:30 03kilobyte * r164cf571a00d 10/crawl-ref/source/ (10 files): Fix some range inconsistencies. 13:03:34 03kilobyte * r751e42844da0 10/crawl-ref/source/itemprop.cc: Ashenzari: recognize curses on sight. 13:03:38 03kilobyte * r9a9705ea8311 10/crawl-ref/source/map_knowledge.cc: Ashenzari: passive mapping. 13:03:58 03kilobyte * ref1c3097b686 10/crawl-ref/source/abyss.cc: Simplify. 13:05:25 kilobyte: letters are more identifiable at a glance 13:06:58 even worse, libtcod sacrifices text mode just to... have 24 bit colours, without taking any other benefits 13:07:30 heck, that xterm-256 mode has a color cube that for text is almost as good 13:07:50 woot 13:07:55 troves have been remade in trunk? 13:08:01 no gold needed ;( 13:08:06 most people don't want to set up terminals 13:08:17 This trove needs a +1 banded mail of fire resistance to function. Give it the 13:08:17 item? 13:08:58 hm I got a + banded mail of fire resistance in a shop. is that planned? :P 13:09:16 03dolorous * rc1d65b82c60f 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-util.cc: Fix compilation. 13:09:18 rkd: damn you! I always get a +5 GDA or 18 potions of cure mutation. 13:09:20 03dolorous * r694484d3cb4e 10/crawl-ref/source/religion.cc: Use a static_cast where applicable. 13:09:53 kilobyte: the Unix TTY API is utterly broken 13:10:20 "fake text" gives you 1. sanity 2. portability (if doing any features more advanced than vt72) 13:10:37 kilobyte, it doesnt ask at all for gold anymore I see, tho is it planned that it asks for a item that exists? :P 13:10:46 I wouldn't mind libtcod if it used a real font library and wasn't dog slow 13:10:46 was kinda lol that i got what it asked for in a shop 13:12:01 lol best trove 13:12:02 and had all the other features of urxvt I use, like input methods, copy-to-clipboard, runtime font changing 13:12:05 3*5 jewellery 13:12:06 ;D 13:13:44 sorear: reading complex keys is indeed bad, but for display, you don't need anything more than vt100 plus color minus non-char-cell stuff, and every single semi-modern terminal supports that subset 13:15:50 + figuring out what encoding to use + figuring out the display size 13:16:08 unless you're using ncurses, then "+ dealing with terminals that lie in TERM" 13:17:10 did Scrolls of Amnesia get a lot more common? 13:17:11 sorear: 1. \e%G 2. curses or TIOCGWINSZ 13:18:54 sorear: in my unicode rewrite, I researched terminals anyone uses, and there is not a single one that does support CP437 but not \e%G -- so if you do 7-bit ASCII and Unicode, you have everything covered 13:19:49 there was Win98, but we no longer support it 13:19:52 unicode rewrite? 13:20:02 win98 is a terminal? 13:20:30 I'm ripping away all the encoding code and writing it anew, including support for arbitrary locales that the system supports 13:20:54 I paused that rewrite since dpeg asked to do things that could use several months of balance testing 13:21:40 are you going to completely abandon ncurses(w)? 13:22:11 I mean win98's console. NT and higher have that FooBarW variant of API that supports Unicode (well, a 16 bit subset of it, but still) 13:22:45 abandoned ncurses, moved entirely towards ncursesw 13:23:40 Last time I programmed Win98's console, it was a bunch of separate functions in KERNEL32.DLL, not an escape sequence parser 13:24:01 yeah, of course 13:26:26 but well, I have a question: there's an issue with glyph substitution. No matter what big font you use, there can always be codes that lack a glyph in that font but probably can be found in one of fonts installed in the system 13:26:53 what would be the best way to do that without 5359834597 dependencies? 13:28:00 kilobyte: use 5359834596 dependencies 13:28:32 the best solution I found so far is pango -- it has good freetype integration, can use Microsoft's uniscribe on Windows or the equivalent on Mac... but is bulky 13:29:03 bmh: it's pango + fontconfig + glib... three big libraries just for this little detail 13:29:25 kilobyte: How many megabytes? 13:29:54 -!- Pseudonut has joined ##crawl-dev 13:30:56 pango 2.1, glib 9.5, fontconfig 1.6 13:31:44 how big *is* crawl? 13:33:03 the non-contrib .tar.bz2 is 5MB 13:35:55 with contribs, 16MB .tar.bz2, 22MB .zip 13:36:57 on Linux, the binary wouldn't increase in size as everyone who uses X these days will have pango and stuff, not sure how much would be compiled on Windows as most of the library would be unused 13:41:40 that is a bit of a big increase 13:44:59 yeah, I'll probably just copy&paste a selection of characters into the font we ship and ignore more until we start translations 13:45:36 can we have kanji monsters? :-D 13:45:55 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:46:08 tiles don't care about fancy glyphs, just national characters, and if a Chinese guy can't see directory names in an error message well, it's a tiny detail 13:46:50 03dolorous * rf48c22540de9 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-util.cc: Make _get_kraken_head()'s sanity checks handle zombified kraken heads. 13:46:55 bmh: sorry, all but CJK. These characters take two spaces on a terminal so are no good save for inscriptions, character notes or so. 13:48:29 two-tile monsters 13:48:53 monky: Think bigger! Three-tile monsters 13:48:58 we could have @@@, the human centipede 13:53:24 we have kraken 13:53:47 multitile orthogonal snake, eating all apples in the level 13:54:08 I've been arguing for a multi-tile player for a while 13:54:22 bmh: would you be up for coding it? 13:54:29 There's no shortage of arguments :) 13:54:29 dpeg: You would never accept it. 13:54:38 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 13:54:52 bmh: huh? 13:54:54 !learn add bad_ideas Player snake race. Every time you eat something your tail grows more. 13:54:54 bad ideas[2491/2491]: Player snake race. Every time you eat something your tail grows more. 13:54:55 We have kraken 13:55:20 we have demonic tentacles too 13:55:28 dpeg: I would be up for coding a multi-tile player if it was for a slime/jelly player race 13:55:37 player kraken 13:55:47 player tentacle 13:55:49 tentacle form 13:56:38 Mephitic cloud form 13:56:48 god form 13:57:06 if it wasn't stepping on malign gateway's toes, it would be nifty to have a (summ/?)tmut spell that caused the player to sprout a demonic tentacle which would go around and slap enemies for you 13:58:24 Part of the problem is that I haven't seen proposals for big monsters that go beyond the "it's cool!!1!" level. 13:59:28 the ascii char set also isn't probably very nice for multitile monsters 13:59:42 unless you just use the same character repeated or something 13:59:47 like nh worms 14:00:09 bleh 14:00:10 or crawl kraken or crawl demonic tentacles 14:00:43 w for head * for tail; nh uses ~ for tail right 14:01:01 i'm more interested in figuring out a good monster for Q than multitile monsters 14:01:15 Abyssal monsters? :-D 14:02:25 Qilin? 14:02:43 Quinotaur? 14:02:48 Qliphoth? 14:02:58 qthulhu? 14:03:07 * Zannick looking at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_legendary_creatures_(Q) 14:03:27 Q-Bert; found in the portal vault: Pyramid 14:03:34 Quylthulg 14:03:40 -!- st_ has quit [] 14:04:00 -!- casmith789 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:04:11 Quetzalcoatl 14:04:22 -!- casmith789 has joined ##crawl-dev 14:04:32 oh, that's a diety 14:04:35 deity * 14:05:09 Zannick: you should know that 14:05:17 quinotaur: five-horned sea bull 14:05:20 * dpeg thinks people should know more about gods in general. 14:05:24 well, it's in the article 14:05:27 i did know that 14:05:41 i wondered for a moment if it was a different quetzalcoatl 14:05:47 Zannick: ok! 14:06:27 i like the idea of qilin/kirin though 14:06:46 There's no way a letter should be used for one unique. 14:06:56 everyone who wants a new monster should have to suggest which existing monster to remove 14:07:01 Pretzelcoatl 14:07:13 dpeg: that'll be fun 14:07:33 dpeg: Let's remove any one of the agonizingly dull 5's. 14:08:09 heck, model a demon on the hyrda. It starts as a 1 and produces 2 twos and so forth ;-) 14:08:11 cool 14:08:25 bmh: oh, no, not a triangular monster! 14:08:31 ;) 14:08:34 I remove cacodemons 14:08:39 exponential growth is a bitch 14:08:47 cacodemons? I saw them once in the game I won. 14:08:50 I ran away from them. 14:08:53 how about removing a flavour of rats or blue devils or red devils or hairy devils 14:09:11 I don't know the difference between a gray rat, a green rat, and an orange rat 14:09:19 orange rats have draining 14:09:35 green rats are slightly stronger than grey rats 14:09:59 green rats are poisonous 14:10:18 their corpses are 14:10:30 that's what i said 14:10:38 oh right 14:10:48 i forget if they're venomous, too 14:10:51 don't think so 14:10:55 03dolorous * r68b954522246 10/crawl-ref/source/ (mon-info.cc mon-info.h mon-util.cc): Make kraken connectors/tentacles inherit the head's resistances. 14:11:07 a pack of green rats can take out an xl13 character in some cases, a pack of ordinary rats are pushovers at xl3. 14:11:24 Zannick: they aren't venomous 14:11:50 if i got taken out at xl13 by a pack of green rats, i would have either been very stupid, very unlucky, or itching to die 14:12:14 how about removing grey then 14:12:52 -!- Moriasc has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:13:06 i would totally have suggested ugly creatures or slime creatures back before they became cool 14:13:47 slime creatures are one of the biggest midgame threats imo if you're unspoiled 14:13:53 dpeg: I bolded all the implemented parts on Ashenzari's wiki. I'm going to implement identify, would you care to tell me what else is important for 1.0? 14:14:34 yes, will do 14:14:37 03dolorous * r70677843c915 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-info.cc: Make monster_info::draco_subspecies() handle grey draconians. 14:14:51 casmith789: spoiled? 14:15:13 the midgame is the biggest midgame threat whether or not you're spoiled 14:15:27 ugly things should get healed by distortion. 14:15:29 don't know the amount of damage they do 14:15:44 how about I go patch that. 14:16:01 yeah, but when they combine that should be an "oh shit" moment and you start running 14:16:05 why would ugly things get healed by distortion, by the way? 14:16:06 or casting sticky 14:16:08 casmith789: don't think you need to be spoiled to expect that a triply merged slime deal thrice the damage of a single one, which you know to be considerable. 14:16:11 distortion is more about translocation than transmutation 14:16:17 bmh: I support that. 14:16:22 maybe vortices should be undamaged by it 14:16:33 Ugly Things are seething mutagenic monsters 14:16:38 translocation makes you glow 14:16:41 distortion heals spiny frogs already 14:16:45 blink 14:16:53 dpeg: why? 14:16:55 blink frogs, well, blink 14:16:59 that seems odd to me 14:17:07 oh, you mean blink frogs 14:17:58 frankly, i like having lots of different monsters 14:18:10 uglies are about mutations, not spatial distortions 14:18:11 a lot of them are boring, yes. 14:18:31 any link between these two would be pretty weird 14:18:43 sorry, blink yes 14:18:46 distracted by work 14:18:48 mutation is physical distortion 14:18:53 casmith789: I think you have a wrong notion of what spoilers are 14:18:57 distortion inflicts translocation miscasts. Translocation miscasts make you glow. 14:18:58 i think that's what he's thinking of 14:19:06 Zannick: we are trying to make interesting monsters. 14:19:27 Doesn't help to say "they're boring". Does help to come up with ideas so good they'll go in. 14:19:30 "oh, I needed to carve 'elbereth' into the ground to survive those merged slimes" needs spoilers 14:19:40 bmh: all miscasts make you glow 14:19:41 "oops, merged slimes deal a lot of damage" does not 14:19:46 I know what spoilers are, spoilers are anything that improves your game from outside help 14:20:03 casmith789: this is a very inclusive definition 14:20:08 dpeg: bad choice of words. 14:20:21 03raphael.langella * rc6e2444bb12e 10/crawl-ref/source/describe.cc: improve actions from inventory 14:20:28 -!- bmh has quit [Changing host] 14:20:28 -!- bmh has joined ##crawl-dev 14:20:33 i mean more that many of them are very similar at a certain point 14:20:34 this is a spoiler http://auto-trim.com/aluminumwings/black-v-1.jpg 14:20:50 casmith789: crawl isn't about winning your first game 14:20:54 bmh: this would be like: liches do necromancy, necromancy miscasts cause glow, thus distortion should make heal liches! 14:21:15 I don't think there should be a link between ugly things and distortion 14:21:16 you can easily learn that merged slimes deal lots of damage by, you know, being dealt lots of damage by merged slimes 14:21:30 The distortion brand is absurd as is 14:21:31 in general, when i have more solid ideas i will share :) 14:21:35 merged slime creatures doing tons of damage is intuitive 14:21:40 on the wiki, of course 14:21:42 yes 14:22:17 feel free to disagree with me. As dpeg says I have a very inclusive definition of spoilers 14:22:30 Zannick: yes, I fully agree. But if you look at what happened to monsters during the soup, you'll we try to do something: uglies, slimes, trapdoor spider, silent spectre etc. Need more ideas. 14:22:56 are silent spectres going to be changed? 14:23:01 probably 14:23:07 ah, good 14:23:08 yes, and i love the improvements so far 14:23:33 i am just bad at not having other things on my plate 14:23:40 casmith789: they don't follow stairs, but that may be not enough 14:23:58 casmith789: have you played with them after the change? 14:24:08 I haven't sadly, so maybe they are alright now 14:24:14 03dolorous * rf2bd9a1095f7 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-info.h: Add missing blank lines. 14:24:15 been far too busy 14:24:54 I guess I'll be the only player to know the joy of luring a Spectre to Elf:7 14:25:06 I had to corrupt the bloody entryway to Elf:1 to even get it into the branch 14:25:21 don't think so, others have done it 14:25:25 in tomb as well 14:25:26 bmh: good that you reported the abuse 14:25:42 kilobyte: I played with silent spectres recently 14:25:47 @?? silent spectre 14:25:48 silent spectre (10p) | Speed: 10 | HD: 8 | Health: 29-59 | AC/EV: 5/15 | Damage: 15 | Flags: 07undead, evil, see invisible, lev | Res: 06magic(42), 12cold+++, 03poison | XP: 313. 14:26:02 kilobyte: one spawned on crypt:5 and it trivialized all the liches and vampires 14:26:28 easy enough to lure it, and I had boots of running so I could get away to heal 14:28:20 The idea of the spectre is good, we just have to be meaner. 14:28:58 force silence's radius to be just large enough to include the player 14:28:59 spectres are interesting, but potentially gamebreaking 14:29:08 I also found one or two in tartarus but I was able to avoid them so they didn't break me 14:29:11 do spellcasters have AI to avoid silence? 14:29:20 because that would solve it 14:29:50 TGWi: I've never seen aliches try to move away when I silenced them 14:29:55 and another problem: what if the player is faster 14:30:06 monster ai is pretty bad 14:30:11 monsters fleeing from silence would be a stab party 14:30:14 make the spectres speed 6 or something? 14:30:22 esp. with regards to fighting other monstes 14:30:23 monky: I mean make them smart enough to not stand around the edge 14:30:41 erm 14:30:44 to not charge into it 14:30:47 ah 14:31:09 so silent spectre would have to have a tiny silence radius or it would be spellcaster-free zone 14:33:19 it could be hard to attack via spells and provide silence as a melee attack 14:35:09 what about this: spectres don't walk within the radius of liches, liches don't enter silence. Other undead don't rely on spellcasting that much, even vampire mages really (which could perhaps follow the second rule but not scare away spectres). 14:35:46 so you'd have a lich-free zone to retreat to, but with the spectre you still can't rest safely 14:35:59 kilobyte: but your proposal still relies in the crutch that spectres don't leave the level 14:36:55 as ghosts haunt the level and cannot leave it, that fits theme pretty well 14:37:27 ok 14:37:43 my proposal is easier to do, though :) 14:37:49 no monster AI stuff required 14:39:27 how would it be hard to attack via spells though 14:43:02 -!- Giomancer has joined ##crawl-dev 14:44:44 should i worried that git pull just gave me a huge number of 'rm: cannot unlink `pack-01dd6ff23cf634ca181dec9e21ca66dbfa9ea9b7.pack': Permission denied' 14:45:26 that's probably normal 14:45:47 [20:42] felids should get a slaying bonus against rats 14:45:58 [20:43] also felids should be barred from casting canine familiar!! 14:46:11 CCF should always be hostile for felids 14:46:18 hehe, nice bit of flavour I thought 14:49:49 -!- dpeg_ has joined ##crawl-dev 14:50:04 hi dpeg_ 14:50:13 have you met dpeg? 14:50:56 -!- ortoslon has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 14:53:11 -!- Keskitalo has joined ##crawl-dev 14:53:13 Evenings! 14:53:18 Keskitalo: Halllo! 14:53:25 Zipcode is doing the draconians <3 14:53:41 wow 14:53:50 Keskitalo: you looked over his proposal? 14:54:10 casmith789: heh, canine familiar makes sense :p 14:55:05 dpeg_: A bit, looked like he took Pacra's proposal and inserted some b0rsuk bits (and of course his own things) 14:55:28 Keskitalo: I am really busy, my wife is handing in her phd tomorrow, but I'll look over it tomorrow. 14:55:50 casmith789: there may be a lot of "kitteh lubs goggie" on icanhascheezburger, but let's go with the stereotype 14:55:56 dpeg_: Oh that is cool, congrats to her! 14:56:00 -) 14:56:05 :) even 14:56:13 Felids! purrr 14:57:58 Keskitalo: would you like to write out wall-clinging? 15:00:17 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 15:02:48 dpeg_: As an Implementable? Hmm, the bit in the wiki is pretty good I think, so it should be easy. 15:03:03 Keskitalo: yes, like that. Thank you! 15:03:31 Keskitalo: We should work down our metaagenda and find bits we can pin down enough to turn Implementable. 15:03:45 SHould be possible to come up with a detailed proposal for constriction, for example. 15:04:27 Yup, we could do that in mail. 15:04:37 I am always open for that. 15:04:57 re: contriction, there was an awesome variant in the existing monsters wiki page - where the monster clings to you, but you can drag it along if you're strong enough 15:05:05 wow 15:05:10 sounds sexy 15:05:17 didn't yet think if that was actually desirable, but the mental image is damn funny 15:05:31 almost as sexy as turtles which shell in and where players can push the shell :) 15:06:08 MArio! 15:06:08 turtle sokoban 15:06:13 Giomancer: yes! 15:06:39 hehe 15:07:03 !learn add Proved beyond any reasonable doubt that he is oooold: Did the Pawlowian trigger of "push turtle" --> "Mario!" 15:07:03 proved[1/1]: beyond any reasonable doubt that he is oooold: Did the Pawlowian trigger of "push turtle" --> "Mario!" 15:07:17 damn :) 15:07:20 !learn del proved 15:07:21 Deleted proved[1/1]: beyond any reasonable doubt that he is oooold: Did the Pawlowian trigger of "push turtle" --> "Mario!" 15:07:28 !learn add Giomancer Proved beyond any reasonable doubt that he is oooold: Did the Pawlowian trigger of "push turtle" --> "Mario!" 15:07:29 giomancer[1/1]: Proved beyond any reasonable doubt that he is oooold: Did the Pawlowian trigger of "push turtle" --> "Mario!" 15:08:04 xD 15:08:37 plutonium turtles; when you push enough of them in a pile, a giant mushroom grows on the map 15:08:52 <3 15:09:15 mushroom clouds should be represented by cloud glyphs forming an f 15:09:16 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 15:09:54 -!- casmith789 has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:13:11 03dolorous * r9d787e8ed947 10/crawl-ref/source/religion.cc: Avoid current gift counter overflows with regard to Yred servants. 15:14:11 dpeg_: I think the interface should have a "Cling" status message to note the player something's up. 15:14:18 Keskitalo: yes 15:14:37 and 'x' should indicate what you'Re clinging to, if we think that is necessary 15:16:02 -!- casmith789 has joined ##crawl-dev 15:21:34 Keskitalo: "Cling" only when clinging and ove hazardous terrain or whenever clinging? 15:21:39 dpeg_: I don't think it's necessary, since you cling to every applicable wall. (It would tell that you're not clinging to diagonal walls, but if that is needed, it is too clunky. 15:21:58 (The former saves space, the latter explains the rule without words.) 15:21:59 dpeg_: Whenever clinging, so that the player is inspired to experiment. (This is purely from learnability point of view) 15:22:02 yes, exactly. 15:22:17 There was fairly little commentary about the monster clinging.. 15:22:56 Keskitalo: player comments tend to be player-centric (I've seen this in other contexts as well). So here they'd focus on spider form rather than spider monsters. 15:23:00 03dolorous * r4e7a57a7c145 10/crawl-ref/source/religion.cc: Fully avoid current gift counter overflows with regard to Yred servants. 15:23:37 Yeah, I feel like I should mention something about the monster clinging in the Implementable, but not much comes to mind. 15:23:40 03kilobyte * r57e02e26fc62 10/crawl-ref/source/spl-book.cc: Felids: no Canine Familiars, duh. 15:23:41 03kilobyte * rc9d6340523ff 10/crawl-ref/source/spl-monench.cc: Felids: dogs are not tameable. Enslavement still works, though. 15:24:20 Same rules as for the player, and perhaps a bit about the intended layout/water in Nest. 15:24:51 Keskitalo: it might make monster pathfinding harder 15:25:18 agh, yes. 15:25:20 kilobyte: could you imagine felids in 0.8? 15:26:13 that's a big issue I think, I have no idea how pathfinding is handled in Crawl (and I'm not generally knowledgeable about it either) 15:26:39 ??death cob 15:26:40 death cob[1/4]: You may have already fielded a guess, but it's insane hostile food. It might be corny, but if you put an ear to the ground deep down in Crawl's maize, you may find that you are being stalked; being buttered up for the kill, smooth as silk. 15:26:47 ??death cob[2] 15:26:47 death cob[2/4]: A dreadful undead cob of maize. Look, this one was probably a mistake. We're sorry. 15:26:52 ??death cob[3[ 15:26:52 I don't have a page labeled death_cob3 in my learndb. 15:26:56 ??death_cob[3] 15:26:57 death cob[3/4]: For laughs, watch !tv * killer=death cob 1 15:27:07 Keskitalo: just mention it 15:27:15 where do I ssh to watch tv? 15:27:20 ??death cob[4] 15:27:22 death cob[4/4]: Unfortunately don't turn into death popcorn when sticky flamed 15:27:30 dpeg_: I have severe doubts about how the species will fare, but yeah, if they will be in Crawl at all, I see no reason for pushing them later. 15:28:24 by the way, is my religion patch going to get commited? It doesn't implement debt decay yet, but it doesn't break anything. 15:28:42 what does it do for now? 15:28:58 just collects the data? 15:29:03 yeah 15:29:07 @?death cob 15:29:07 death cob (08%) | Speed: 25 | HD: 10 | Health: 48-81 | AC/EV: 10/15 | Damage: 20 | Flags: 07undead, evil | Res: 06magic(40), 02cold, 03poison | XP: 1272. 15:29:18 death cobs are FAST. 15:29:20 @?executioner 15:29:21 Executioner (151) | Speed: 20 | HD: 12 | Health: 49-85 | AC/EV: 10/15 | Damage: 30, 10, 10 | Flags: 05demonic, evil, see invisible, !sil | Res: 06magic(144), 05fire, 02cold, 10elec++, 03poison | XP: 2373 | Sp: pain (d14), haste. 15:29:47 with the speed our codebase moves, having a patch rot even a month results in severe issues during merging 15:29:51 bmh: upload, please 15:30:04 dpeg_: I did. I put in on the tracker. I posted it in IRC 15:30:11 bmh: ah, okasy 15:30:40 bmh: There aren't terribly many people around who can pull it into trunk. Will put more Mantis weight on this tomorrow. 15:30:51 kilobyte: Do felids get more than two rings? 15:30:51 ls 15:30:55 oops, you aren't a terminal 15:31:00 dpeg_: two currently 15:31:01 D: 15:31:14 kilobyte: there was this idea of four, to give them something... 15:31:37 dpeg_: That sounds dangerous. A nest of RANDART jewelry 15:31:59 dpeg_: I think they should be able to use wands 15:32:02 dpeg_: yeah, but it might be good to have ANY input. All we have is syllogism(?)'s game till mid-lair from several months ago. 15:32:23 03dolorous * r2c5d2efaca2e 10/crawl-ref/source/spl-monench.cc: Add spacing fix. 15:32:25 kilobyte: sure sure 15:32:33 bmh: have you seen felids yet? 15:32:35 bmh: a nest of RANDART armour and a weapon 15:32:41 dpeg_: nope 15:33:23 s/input/feedback/ 15:34:22 the "no wands" thing is not really important, if it's a problem it can go 15:34:46 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 15:34:58 galehar: welcome back! 15:35:01 re 15:35:27 armour gives a lot more power (resists, randarts), but heck, Shrek had that Puss... 15:35:57 in boots! 15:36:02 Wall-clinging for Spider Form and monsters (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2704) by evktalo 15:36:20 dpeg: did you see the mantis I opened about miscellaneous items being evocable without wielding? 15:36:27 Take a look, I can edit it (the wall-cling Imp) 15:37:13 galehar: yes, and I don't know what to say. 15:38:05 have you checked which commit changed that? 15:38:08 Well, when did it change; does the changelog say anything; if not, commit messages 15:38:36 kilobyte: no, but I was just thinking I need to learn how to search git to answer that :) 15:38:46 Rods still need to be wielded last time I checked, but I almost never use misc items 15:38:47 I loathe CVS. I hate it so much. 15:38:50 Keskitalo: looks good. Do we want other clinging monsters? 15:38:52 * bmh works on converting a CVS repo into git 15:39:13 dpeg_: We could differentiate death yaks from elephants with it 15:39:17 * Giomancer huggles git 15:39:20 ;) 15:39:59 dpeg_: I'll try to come up with a list now 15:40:07 -!- syllogism has quit [] 15:40:16 galehar: with the complete absence of any clues, "git bisect" will do any thinking for you, it's just a matter of a helluva lot of compiles 15:41:10 kilobyte: That's magical. 15:41:39 Ants could be an option.. are ant/bee larvas sticky? 15:41:48 Browsing mon-data.h gives too many funny ideas (wandering mushrooms) 15:41:57 hellephants 15:42:16 it's just: compile, start a char, &o{earth V, quit, tell git if it's good or bad 15:42:52 if you do it from DCSS0.1 to master, it's 15 or so iterations 15:43:02 dichotomy! 15:43:07 awesome :) 15:43:09 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Gecko_foot_on_glass.JPG 15:43:11 I love git 15:43:49 What if we make it so that geckos can walk on walls over lava/water? 15:43:55 too bad, earliest versions had quirky ways to build 15:43:58 bmh: :) 15:44:18 bmh: https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2704 15:44:31 ha. 15:44:41 bmh: Interested in coding? 15:44:50 no. 15:45:06 I just want to make git-cvs work so I can write clojure bindings for this NLP library 15:45:20 Heh, giant gecko zomgies should get wall-cling, but giant gecko skeletons shouldn't, right? :) 15:45:23 I also need to figure out how to get libnoise build properly 15:47:31 03dolorous * r37e685bd274e 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-data.h: Remove poison resistance from abominations again. 15:48:07 oh, I never knew our wyverns don't fly. 15:48:30 Keskitalo: I think it's their defining property: a pedestrian dragon. 15:48:45 I guess I've been tainted by D&D. :P 15:48:58 Keskitalo: I know other sources where they don't fly either. 15:50:07 I think 'x' should show when a monster is clinging, but the monster list shouldn't. 15:50:25 Keskitalo: yes, like flying 15:52:10 SA loves felids, by the way 15:53:02 quick, remove them 15:53:09 how playable are they so far 15:53:45 "you get an extra life every 3 levels because cats have 9 lives IRL and the devs have been pushing towards emphasizing the realism of dungeon crawl." haha 15:53:49 what about the name? Is there a lot of support for felid? Wasn't cat just better? 15:54:05 no 15:54:08 galehar: I checked this: in 0.5, V evokes from inventory, in 0.4, there's no V or a similar command at all, you can zap wands only, or evoke the wielded item with 'v' 15:54:10 definite wall-clingers: spiders, demonic crawler, giant gecko. possibles: ants, non-spider non-scorpion s, (death|brown) ooze 15:54:11 what exactly are they 15:54:32 giant gecko, heh 15:54:37 "Felid" is a better name for a species, "Cat" is such a common/usual word 15:54:53 TGWi: I'll fill Sewer with them :) 15:55:15 the sewer should have turtles. 15:55:27 baby alligator snapping turtles 15:55:29 I don't feel strongly either way; all of "felid", "cat", "witch's cat", "kitteh" are as good to me 15:55:30 Human is a pretty usual word too :) 15:55:40 Mu_: hush :P 15:56:03 so that's their advantage 15:56:07 they get extra lives? 15:56:33 Cat being so usual is what makes is so amusing 15:56:55 st_: It feels the wrong kind of silly for Crawl to me.. 15:57:13 greensnark was for Felid, IIUC. 15:57:32 leeches should be able to cling to you 15:57:48 TGWi: That sounds good! 15:58:07 like, they should force you to constrict them 15:58:26 I don't know how that stuff going to be implemented 15:58:28 I'm not a native speaker, but shouldn't it be Feline instead of Felid (at least that's what my dictionary says) 15:58:29 +is 15:58:35 what's the difference 15:58:36 galehar: it's a made-up word 15:58:39 leeches should be implemented by a "leech" status 15:58:47 ah ok 15:59:11 how would leeches be any different than poison...? 15:59:11 "feline" is the adjective for "cat" 15:59:15 bmh: 15:59:17 @??giant leech 15:59:17 giant leech (05w) | Speed: 8 | HD: 6 | Health: 32-57 | AC/EV: 5/15 | Damage: 2005(vampiric) | Flags: amphibious, evil | Res: 06magic(24) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 87. 15:59:33 TGWi: That hits HARD! 15:59:37 feline is a name too 15:59:38 @??ogre 15:59:39 ogre (07O) | Speed: 10 | HD: 5 | Health: 17-39 | AC/EV: 1/6 | Damage: 17 | Res: 06magic(20) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 119. 15:59:57 yeah, but it's a real word 16:00:08 if you read "feline" you think "oh, it's a cat" 16:00:26 while it's actually a spellcasting explorer cat 16:00:38 TGWi: I'll add the leech idea to wiki if you don't mind? 16:00:45 Keskitalo: sure 16:00:59 dragging along leeches is awesome 16:01:07 would give them something to do 16:01:11 ok, then I have no opinion on the name 16:01:29 appart that the enum should match the real name, which isn't the case 16:01:31 galehar: discussion about names and licenses always take up lots of time and space 16:01:37 0.8 = complete monster overhall? :) 16:01:48 0.8: completely different game 16:01:51 dpeg: what about LOS shape ;) 16:02:03 galehar: a lot of that was actually useful :) 16:02:05 new race, new god, hexes 16:02:20 heh felids can't learn summon canines 16:02:23 We cannot release 0.8 without sacrificing something substantial. 16:02:34 sacrificing!? why do that :( 16:02:45 We've been doing that since ever. 16:02:53 how do you mean 16:03:13 getting rid of species, or a spell school 16:03:20 oh 16:03:26 I thought ench was switching anyway 16:03:32 *splitting 16:03:39 we could get rid of invocations 16:03:47 casmith789: well, that is growth rather than removal :) 16:03:58 imo growth > removal 16:04:15 TGWi: this is actually not such a bad idea, but not in the way you may think 16:04:18 at least it'S not easy 16:04:25 casmith789: cf. Slashem 16:04:25 invocations actually should go, though; dubious flavour, splits focus 16:04:45 growth implies "good" 16:04:56 sif could use spellcasting, etc etc and some could just use piety like trog 16:04:56 casmith789: ^ 16:05:14 casmith789: you are obviously a US American 16:05:22 One thing I like about Invocations skill is that you spend exp on a god (but that might be theoretical) 16:05:26 what 16:05:29 a) I'm not 16:05:34 b) I think you misunderstood me 16:05:40 casmith789: seems like it 16:05:42 I meant, when I said growth, I meant good growth 16:05:50 as opposed to all growth is good 16:05:54 but what about my Genious of Arcana title :( 16:05:58 Keskitalo: Johanna suggested to either have no Inv or separate Inv for each god 16:06:02 weeding out bad stuff is good for good growth 16:06:08 what Keskitalo said. 16:06:36 dpeg_: I like the separate Inv idea 16:07:03 But the XP usage in itself might indeed be a theoretical concern, i.e. it doesn't really affect the game 16:07:32 Keskitalo: there is no reason it shouldn't 16:08:30 a lot of gods don't use invocations (for no real reason) 16:09:05 trog completely ignores it, nemelex uses evo instead 16:09:18 So nobody proof-read the wall-clinging implementable? :) (I used tag instead of 
)
16:09:25  03kilobyte 07stone_soup-0.4 * r25a62ab32d4d 10/crawl-ref/source/ (AppHdr.h util/sqlite/sqlite3.h): Fix compilation on modern systems.
16:09:28  Keskitalo: I read that
16:10:37  kilobyte: you're fixing DCSS 0.4??? lol
16:10:39  TGWi: why "for no real reason"??
16:10:58  galehar: just in case someone wants to check something in it again
16:11:11  dpeg_: there's no division between the gods that do and the ones that don't; it's arbitrary
16:11:51 * dpeg_ does not feel like explaining.
16:12:00  about evocable: it seems the behavior never changed. I just assumed you had to wield because that's what it says on the wiki, but also in at least one learndb article (box of beasts)
16:12:08  Keskitalo: uhm, you see,  works just as well as 
 in plain text.  Both are junk but don't break anything :p
16:12:37  trog -> not invo because it will raise MP. nemelex -> not invo because he will do evo vehu -> not invo because he's different from sif. xom -> not invo because he's xom
16:13:05  if nemelex uses evo, why doesn't sif use spellcasting?
16:13:36  kilobyte: The tracker does not use plain text.
16:13:47  Keskitalo: but our emails do
16:15:13  clear
16:16:52  dpeg_: Ahhh, duhh
16:17:25  Anyway, should sleep. Cheers!
16:17:28 -!- Keskitalo has quit [Quit: leaving]
16:25:26  invo raises mp?
16:25:27  wtf?
16:25:31  ??invocation
16:25:31  invocations[1/2]: Used by TSO, Beogh, Cheibriados, Elyvilon, Fedhas, Kikubaaqudgha, Lugonu, Makhleb, Okawaru, Sif Muna, Yredelemnul, Zin. Not used by Nemelex Xobeh, Trog, Vehumet, Xom. Trog bases invoked powers on your piety, Nemelex on your evocations (which they train).
16:25:35  This is a dev channel
16:25:44  ah thought I was in ##crawl
16:25:49  really :)
16:26:19  I need to stop reading one comment in a discussion and then make my own comment
16:27:31  yes, just like spellcasting
16:27:50  casmith789: a little less MP
16:28:05  and it doesn't add
16:28:07  true, okay approximately like spellcasting :)
16:28:09  up
16:28:31  I'm officially confused
16:28:42  all of this is in the manual, btw
16:29:02  aka: RTFM
16:29:05  :)
16:29:54  rkd managed to draw an encompassing vault without reading the map making documentation :)
16:31:07  the what now?
16:31:39  well making the layout is just adding 'x' and '.' in a fashionable manner
16:31:45  ;D
16:32:06  I did ctrl+f the syntax.txt abit tho when making the vault
16:35:19  are encompass vaults okay at any depth?
16:36:24  encompass vaults?
16:48:13 -!- bmh has quit [Quit: bmh]
16:50:09  where, D?
16:50:31  like D:@
16:50:33  D:2 even
16:50:55  an encompass vault on D would have to be very good imo
16:50:56  TGWi: probably not, scumming avoidance
16:51:59  speaking of, i noticed the comment at the top of lethe said the intention was to make it a portal vault. is that still the intention?
16:52:20  Mu_: it would be a possible portal vault, yes
16:52:35  the good thing about portal vault is that we can implement the forgetting bits
16:52:48  ah, yes
16:54:20  Mu_: the system would still need a lot of work
16:54:35  for example, enough randomisation so that spoilerage does not yield much
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17:02:10 -!- casmith789 has joined ##crawl-dev
17:05:42 -!- TGWi has left ##crawl-dev
17:38:14  man I can't handle being in #adom ##Crawl and ##crawl-dev at the same time
17:38:35  I click one, unsure which channel I took up. and after reading the discussion i am still as unsure
17:38:46  [00:24]  after killing 23 blink dogs, and spending 8000 turns, I just gave up tp control
17:38:52  took me like 3 minutes to understand
17:39:12  then I was like "ah blink dogs, not blink frogs.. ah this is #adom"
17:39:22 -!- TGWi has joined ##crawl-dev
17:39:50  do you not have a client which displays the channel name somewhere?
17:40:09  I do
17:40:25  but I just click occassionally when I see that someone has said something new
17:40:32  ah
17:40:34  without  really looking at the name of the channel, just the color
17:43:57  !lg * s=v x=min(turn)
17:43:58  820561 games for *: 114225x 0.5.2 [0], 89001x 0.7.1 [0], 76942x 0.5.1 [0], 75585x 0.4.5 [0], 65253x 0.6.0 [0], 58580x 0.4.4 [0], 48260x 0.3.4 [0], 39920x 0.6.1 [0], 36623x 0.5 [0], 32619x 0.2.7 [0], 23059x 0.7.0-a0 [0], 19807x 0.6.0-a1 [0], 18058x 0.3.3 [0], 17864x 0.1.7 [0], 13400x 0.5-a [0], 11911x 0.8.0-a0 [0], 10430x 0.3.2 [0], 9730x 0.7.0-a1 [0], 9231x 0.4-a [0], 8122x 0.6.0-a2 [0], 5388x 0.2...
17:44:07  !lg * s=v x=min(turn) ktyp=winning
17:44:08  3299 games for * (ktyp=winning): 457x 0.5.1 [13435], 435x 0.7.1 [14318], 370x 0.4.4 [26284], 315x 0.3.4 [36015], 275x 0.5.2 [32192], 237x 0.4.5 [43248], 206x 0.6.0 [29276], 125x 0.2.7 [56617], 109x 0.6.1 [16475], 106x 0.5 [60942], 74x 0.6.0-a1 [65015], 73x 0.3.3 [66283], 62x 0.1.7 [21070], 61x 0.7.0-a0 [41083], 54x 0.8.0-a0 [77136], 53x 0.4.1 [56165], 44x 0.6.0-a2 [57169], 38x 0.4.3 [64028], 28x 0...
17:44:57  !hs rkd
17:44:57  350. rkd the Demonspawn Barricade (L27 DSBe), worshipper of Trog, escaped with the Orb and 16 runes on 2008-08-28, with 9114583 points after 177456 turns and 23:12:18.
17:45:08  oh
17:47:07  !hs slickrick
17:47:07  215. slickrick the Elven Blade (L27 HECr), worshipper of Kikubaaqudgha, escaped with the Orb and 15 runes on 2010-07-20, with 12224772 points after 130851 turns and 24:21:46.
17:47:25  going for 15m points next team I feel like playing
17:47:26  !hs rob
17:47:26  2241. rob the Executioner (L27 MDFi), worshipper of The Shining One, escaped with the Orb and 15 runes on 2009-01-23, with 33813486 points after 43248 turns and 9:31:56.
17:47:34  !hs sorear
17:47:34  that's who I was confusing you with
17:47:34  3253. sorear the Talismancer (L27 GnEE), worshipper of Nemelex Xobeh, escaped with the Orb and 18 runes on 2008-08-24, with 9151703 points after 183726 turns and 21:31:25.
17:47:58  well you got the gnee hs still I believe
17:48:00  !hs *
17:48:01  !hs * gnee
17:48:01  820563. hyperbolic the Executioner (L27 DDCK), worshipper of The Shining One, escaped with the Orb and 15 runes on 2009-11-21, with 36620901 points after 39740 turns and 7:53:59.
17:48:01  1622. sorear the Talismancer (L27 GnEE), worshipper of Nemelex Xobeh, escaped with the Orb and 18 runes on 2008-08-24, with 9151703 points after 183726 turns and 21:31:25.
17:48:24  !hs spen
17:48:24  5. rkd the Cutthroat (L25 SpEn), worshipper of Okawaru, escaped with the Orb and 3 runes on 2008-08-09, with 751356 points after 97161 turns and 20:09:03.
17:48:35  I wonder if I have any win under 20h :D
17:48:48  right.  nobody will ever beat that score because we fixed the broken SoE right afterward.
17:48:57  yea
17:49:03  and no gnomes now
17:49:05  :)
17:49:24  you shall be remembered forever
17:51:36  where are vaults placed if there's no DEPTH: line?
17:52:56  they aren't
17:53:15  unless there's a PLACE right
17:54:46 -!- rkd has quit []
17:54:56  some des files (eg the dungeon vaults like large.des) specify a default depth and vaults without depth declarations use that
18:08:29  mini feature doesn't seem to have one
18:08:33  hmph
18:09:27  sure it does
18:09:49  line 21
18:14:04  maybe that's new
18:21:07  what is it? D, Elf, Crypt?
18:21:23  and vault
18:24:38 -!- eith has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
18:29:35  of course they didn't change glyphs.
18:29:35  due: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it.
18:29:38  !messages
18:29:43  (1/1) dpeg said (7h 17m 49s ago): Your commit messages are short!
18:29:48  :)
18:29:50  Hi!
18:29:50  dpeg_: Short commit messages ftw~! :)
18:29:58  dpeg_: What do you think of door mimics slamming closed on you? :D
18:30:23  I am not as crazy as you about it, I guess :)
18:30:32  due: btw, you have a knack for adding new monsters.
18:30:56  I have to point out that we also have a large backlog of boring monsters who need our attention.
18:30:57  Yes, there's a bunch of new enums in that commit ;)
18:31:07  hm, that actually sounds like some doors in zapm
18:31:08  Sometimes, even the new monsters are boring.
18:31:19  due: there is a delay of one turn between the MG portal disappearing and you being able to open a new one. is it intentional?
18:31:42  Mu_: Functional glitch, I guess. I think it can stay, though.
18:32:09  i wish they lasted a little bit longer :P
18:32:17  Mu_: good idea
18:32:17  The portals?
18:32:21  That can be adjusted, sure.
18:32:46  For example, the leech. But today TGWi came up with a cool idea for them: they should auto-constrict to you when they attack.
18:32:49  the tentacle doesn't stick around very long i mean
18:32:54  chaos damage is hilarious btw :P
18:32:56  The leeches aren't boring!
18:33:01  dpeg_: aw, you're cool too
18:33:12  due: when you meet them in Swamp, what do they do?
18:33:22  And you when you move, you have the leech(es) in tow.
18:33:24  They suck ur blooood!
18:33:32  But I like that idea.
18:33:41  also, ##crawl has been asking about getting CDO updated to play cats
18:33:42  due: as a Swamp monster, it underperforms.
18:33:55  cats of Ashenzari, I hope
18:33:56  Yeah, I supposed it hasn't killed anyone yet.
18:34:27  Just saying to you, because you like adding stuff.
18:34:39  We need a bit of work on old stuff as well =)
18:35:31  :p
18:35:57  are feature mimics revealed by traps and doors skill?
18:36:06  also, due, regarding mg:   "i noticed in the swamp that it was really unreliable as far as where it popped out, sometimes generating as far as a screen away. was this because it couldn't generate over shallow water and needed at least a 3x3 empty square? "
18:36:08  OG17: No, but that could be a feature.
18:36:10  from SA
18:36:23  Mu_: That is ... slightly correct.
18:36:27  Mu_: It should never generate outside of LOS.
18:36:49  I'm thinking of lifting the "must generate on a floor tile" restriction though.
18:37:07  i thought water squares were considered empty, so shouldn't it be able to generate pretty much anywhere in swamp without too many trees?
18:37:13  oh that'd be cool too
18:37:18  Yup, that's basically it.
18:37:19  and make sense!
18:37:25  I never tested it in Swamp.
18:37:47  i'm rebuilding atm i'll see what it does exactly in swamp
18:37:51  Thanks :)
18:37:56  Mu_: but do we really want it to spawn on lava, for example?
18:38:05  03kilobyte * rfbe8ffbb12e4 10/crawl-ref/source/ (7 files): Ashenzari: passive identify of gear.
18:38:22  whew, this was the big one
18:38:32  You rock!
18:38:41  what else needs to be done so we can start testing?
18:38:43  kilobyte: will reply on the wiki tomorrow
18:38:56  doing latex work for my wife's thesis
18:39:15  dpeg_: it think it would be ok. the tentacle itself can't deal damage unless it gets into melee range so it wont be able to do anything scummy i don't think.
18:39:25  alright then
18:39:39  And it can only reach so far.
18:39:47  I'm thinking of making its reachiness also a face of power.
18:39:56  remove curse asking for the item, I guess
18:40:09  if it falls in deep water or lava after being severed, will it sink correctly? :)
18:40:15  kilobyte: and Curse Foo cursing all eligible items
18:40:25  Mu_: It's amphibious :)
18:40:32  ah :P
18:40:49  can't wait to see MG vs. kraken
18:40:58  Hah.
18:41:42  dpeg_: I think one might be enough
18:42:10  kilobyte: I see
18:42:20  dpeg_: but then, it's not an important question anyway... either way will do
18:42:21  you assume that players have access to many Curse Foo scrolls?
18:42:30  Is the remove curse spell gone?
18:42:45  due: should be, yes
18:46:08  n7's draconian patch is submitted <3
18:46:14  he is so fast
18:47:08  Draconian overhaul (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2705) by 78291
18:49:09  Oh that's so hot.
18:49:43  03dolorous * reff01d9e3035 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-abil.cc: Use make_fake_undead() properly in one more place for kraken connectors.
18:49:59  "Monsters now breathe quicksilver bolts" scary
18:51:04  03dolorous * r942f6166e335 10/crawl-ref/source/ (mon-abil.cc mon-cast.cc): Add formatting fixes.
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18:52:04  is the sticky flame spell still going to be range 1?
18:52:24  due: clouds seem to block MG placement
18:52:27  upsy: it is not, but it should be
18:52:38  Mu_: Hm, it's entirely possible they do.
18:52:38  should be a touch
18:53:03  due: could probably ignore them since they wont affect the tentacle
18:53:08  Yeah.
18:53:16  I don't have time to check it at the minute.
18:53:45  okay
18:54:09  Time to go out, bye.
18:54:11  should spells1.cc be generated during the build process?
18:54:25  cw_: the spells*.cc files were renamed to spl-.cc
18:54:31  due: bye!
18:54:39  due: oh, maybe that's why swamp placement is strange too
18:54:39  due: ah ok, so the xcode project is out of date
18:54:41  Any spells*.cc/d/h/o files you have lying around are outdated :)
18:54:41  all the mist
18:54:44  thanks,  and bye :)
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19:12:34  03dolorous * r0c4dd92bd592 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-info.cc: Simplify setting the two-weapons and no-regen flags in monster_info.
19:27:13  03dolorous * raf79abff6b11 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-util.cc: Make kraken connectors/tentacles inherit the head's no-regen flag.
19:28:50 -!- Giomancer has quit [Quit: On the other hand, you have different fingers.]
19:32:40  03kilobyte * r8697a157a5a6 10/crawl-ref/source/religion.cc: Ashenzari: identify Remove Curse, Curse Foo and eligible stuff at conversion.
19:32:42  03kilobyte * r26cf9711349b 10/crawl-ref/source/mislead.cc: Ashenzari: mislead immunity.
19:32:44  03kilobyte * r0517cb2b0f99 10/crawl-ref/source/ (itemname.cc religion.cc): Ashenzari: scrolls of Detect Curse are useless.
19:32:45  03kilobyte * rda735573f08d 10/crawl-ref/source/religion.cc: Ashenzari: reduce the id spam on join, cursedness is not that interesting.
19:32:48  03kilobyte * r096f8a9cbb59 10/crawl-ref/source/ (invent.cc invent.h item_use.cc spl-goditem.cc spl-goditem.h): Ashenzari: for scrolls of Remove Curse, ask for a set of worn items to uncurse.
19:34:12  should be good to go now.
19:34:54  kilobyte: what do you mean by "set" for ?RC?
19:34:57  Minor stuff like wrath or some of ^ display is still not there, but it's not vital for the first testing.
19:35:17  dpeg_: "set" in the mathematical sense.
19:35:47  dpeg_: like none, any, one, ...
19:35:50  kilobyte: so the player can choose what to uncurse, between 0 and all?
19:35:56  yeah
19:36:28  Okay, this is the most player-friendly version possible (both for ?RC and ?Curse
19:37:41  ?Curse affects one random item instead of asking, so almost
19:38:03  kilobyte: one random _uncursed_ item (if any)?
19:38:12  oh... which of "Bonuses for Cursed Gear" did you mean?
19:38:16  of course
19:38:23  kilobyte: this is not really clear
19:38:28  I'd leave them be for now.
19:39:35  I wonder how to display that laundry list of passive information in ^
19:40:03  we will find a way
19:41:04  for Curse Foo, they work exactly the same way as for non-Ashenzarites, that's why I prefer that -- but not to the point of arguing
19:41:26  kilobyte: I am fine with testing the vanilla version.
19:41:55  It all comes down to how strong the conduct (cannot change gear too often) is.
19:43:04  kilobyte: re id, I was unsure about old items (as you could see). Retroactive id is probably better.
19:46:45  03kilobyte * r679f4f134c9d 10/crawl-ref/source/describe.cc: Ashenzari: vaguely mention that you are told stuff.
19:47:22  :)
19:47:51  okay, sleep after all
19:48:03  bie!
19:48:15  kilobyte: many thanks, I am very excited. Couldn't do much this weekend due to that thesis. Later!
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19:53:05  CDO updated to: 0.8.0-a0-1916-g679f4f1 (31.5)
19:53:45  someone commit n7's patch
20:00:53  03dolorous * re623d7b0b7b8 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-util.cc: Check for enslaved souls later in mon_intel().
20:00:53  03dolorous * r2cf28222d2c7 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-util.cc: Simplify sanity check for zombified kraken heads in _get_kraken_head().
20:01:28  03dolorous * raeca2f39162e 10/crawl-ref/source/ (6 files): Remove make_fake_undead() and references to it.
20:01:28  03dolorous * r81634bea8d5e 10/crawl-ref/source/ (describe.cc mon-util.cc mon-util.h): Clean up the routines to determine if a monster is a tentacle.
20:01:28  03dolorous * r99408bf27461 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-util.cc: Mark kraken connectors as unable to use stairs, since tentacles can't.
20:01:48  03dolorous * r27da7e0e5a2c 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/descript/monsters.txt: Fix wrapping of kraken tentacle description.
20:02:34  Kraken connectors lack a monster description (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2706) by dolorous
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20:33:54  03dolorous * re9613bf4a598 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/descript/items.txt: Tweak blood potion descriptions to mention nutrition for non-herbivores.
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21:37:54  is there any reason for cats to have a quiver?
21:37:57  felids
21:38:23  or really a weapon display either I guess, since there's an indicator for blade hands now
21:46:16  what about wielded decks
21:46:33  in mouth, of course
21:47:42  so cats can draw cards from a deck in their mouth, but can't point a wand
21:47:49  I have no idea why that didn't occur to me
21:48:44  I'll trest
21:48:46  -r
21:48:55  once it compiles
21:48:57  it's how it works, it's just weird
21:49:19  can you evoke in-mouth wands?
21:49:37  nope
21:53:23  that's incredibly strange
21:53:46  I particularly like how holding the wand in-mouth isn't grasping it firmly enough
21:54:29  it makes sense to be limited for gameplay, though I'd think deck use would likewise be restricted to nemelex's draw ability
21:57:18  it's also possible to gaze into in-mouth crystal balls, which is a bit weird
21:58:21  (not that being able to hold crystal balls in mouth at all isn't)
21:59:32  C - a giant firefly corpse (in mouth) they have detachable jaws okay
22:00:59  they can use stuff like elemental stones and storm discs too
22:01:00  at least it's impossible to do it to dragon corpses
22:01:05  which is weird with wands
22:01:35  oddly giant fireflies are as big as rats yet spriggans ride them
22:02:14  spriggans are as big as spriggans
22:02:18  whatever that means
22:02:48  Hm yeah and I see that rats are as big as rats so I'm stumped
22:03:12  really hope that changes before release
22:03:28  among other things
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22:16:23  Was save game compatibiliy broken with 0.8.0-a0-1923-ge9613bf or any recent updates in this branch?
22:18:08  I last pulled about a month ago, and my saves are not being recognized after pulling today.
22:19:33  save compatibility may be broken without notice in prerelease branches
22:25:54  Just wondering which revison broke the compatibility, if it is easy to answer.  If not, no problem.  Thanks.
22:27:48  Search for TAG_MAJOR_VERSION'
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22:29:55  looks like 98cba8136, why?
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22:33:25  Felids can learn but can't use portal projectile (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2707) by OG17
22:37:40  @ sorear  -- no good reason, just felt like updating, but I have a dozen saved games.  So I'll install the latest version that I can play the old games on.
22:43:07  Is playtesting needed for Felids?
22:43:41  and ashenzari
22:45:39  Wow, that is why I like SS  -- active development! :D  My felid will pick ashenzari
22:47:20  ash is supposed to be disabled
22:47:25  my felid will pick xom, because felids are only fit to be killed as a form of catharsis
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22:48:15  i thought ash was reenabled deliberately after the additions
22:50:07  have there been any more ash abilities implemented?
22:52:40  not sure what there was before, but i believe so
22:52:42  !log
22:52:42  1102. upsy, XL11 FeTm, T:18650: http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/upsy/morgue-upsy-20101011-020818.txt
22:53:24  oh right, it doesn't say the passive things
22:53:25  god damn felids
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