00:32:00 -!- ogaz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:19:18 -!- ortoslon has joined ##crawl-dev 01:52:12 -!- OG17 has quit [Quit: OG17] 02:19:47 hello 02:19:53 hello? 02:19:57 hi 02:20:09 so apparently malign gateway and tentacles doesn't sound all that weird to normal people 02:22:53 I think gutt said it best, what makes Crawl great is that it has awsome and weird spells that actually are awesome and weird 02:23:02 yes 02:32:10 -!- gamefreak264 has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:33:25 I think crawl could use more tentacular spells in the future 02:33:34 I envision a whole school of spells devoted to tentacles 03:01:58 You're sick, man 03:02:22 HAHAHA 03:02:26 Mmm malign gateway is monster castable. 03:03:57 I'm thinking of renaming to eldritch tentacle. 03:04:09 as it's now unliving as opposed demonic 03:04:53 03due * r37ff07540b1b 10/crawl-ref/source/ (mapmark.cc mapmark.h misc.cc tag-version.h): Make Malign Gateway a one-at-a-time spell. 03:04:56 03due * rceddfb756659 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-cast.cc: Give monsters the same limitations for Malign Gateway. 03:05:07 rename flame tongue to flame tentacle 03:05:11 Can someone check that I did the minor-versoin shit right? 03:16:38 -!- monky has quit [Quit: what] 03:17:33 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 03:23:27 03kilobyte 07cats * rdf9990077b58 10/crawl-ref/source/ (7 files in 3 dirs): Felids: steal a few tiles from NetHack. 03:23:55 due: it looks exactly the other way around 03:25:06 kilobyte: Ah, did I reverse it? 03:25:19 you marshall it always (ie, with version >= 31.4), and unmarshall only on >=32.0 (good) <31.4 (bad) 03:26:01 so wait, what did I do wrong? 03:26:49 you want to unmarshall for >=31.4 (ie, for all saves that do have it marshalled) 03:27:16 So if I just nuke the stupid #if block? 03:27:30 oh 03:27:41 minorVersion < TAG_MINOR_MALIGN 03:27:42 should be 03:27:46 minorVersion >= TAG_MINOR_MALIGN 03:27:47 right? 03:28:01 yeah 03:28:08 duh 03:28:14 okay, will fix and push 03:28:16 or, by switching the if around, you can spare a few lines 03:29:14 but that's not important, can merely make very uncareful removal of the #if MAJOR == 31 code when we bump a bit unlikely to cause a mistake 03:30:38 Cats, the muisoical! 03:31:04 http://sprunge.us/gXPW 03:31:37 ohhh 03:31:41 the tiny upside is that someone already managed to remove an #else clause when purging #if MAJOR parts 03:32:16 Okay, I'll use that one instead 03:32:32 Something deeply bothers me about our #if MAJOR bits 03:33:21 what? 03:35:08 03due * r7b62bd514df0 10/crawl-ref/source/mapmark.cc: Fix marshalling with minor versions (Kilobyte). 03:39:34 first b0rsuk, now cats. harsh times for dpeg 03:40:31 We've had cats for a while. 03:47:17 is "it would spare me splitting the code for ?oCurse Jewels" enough of a reason to make use of dpeg's temporary lapse of sanity? 03:47:47 curse jewels? 03:48:18 's worshippers need a way to curse rings and amulets 03:48:38 so now everyone gets to curse their rings and amulets 03:48:40 I'll make Curse Jewellery never spawn except for Ash prayer though 03:48:44 Ahhh 03:48:50 kilobyte: great 03:49:06 it'd be a single number change if someone disagrees 03:54:02 just make it curse for everyone 03:54:08 i think it'd make the identification game more exciting 03:56:53 I don't mind adding in scrolls of curse jewellery for everyone, as long as the total number of curse foo scrolls remains constant. seeing fewer curse armor or curse weapon wouldn't be bad 03:59:51 the total number of curse foo should increase 04:14:53 -!- elliptic has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:16:54 03due * r1e4cba53f9fd 10/crawl-ref/source/ (describe.cc mon-place.cc mon-util.cc mon-util.h): Don't say tentacles can't move; use "called" for eldritch tentacles. 04:17:00 03due * r4802278d53cd 10/crawl-ref/source/ (10 files in 2 dirs): Rename demonic tentacle to eldritch tentacle. 04:21:37 due: the total number of curse foo doesn't need to increase, any curse scroll that you've already identified is just an annoyance for everyone who's not an ash worshiper 04:25:17 could you gentelmen duke it out -- you can take these morningstars in the corner -- and the survivor tell me which option to choose? 04:26:03 ignore Wensley and let them generate 04:26:28 because you're gong to be able to generate them in vaults anyway 04:26:33 it'll just be confusing otherwise 04:26:35 I'd say either go ahead with your previous plan or add curse jewellery scrolls into the normal curse foo roulette, but the total number of curse scrolls encountered should remain the same 04:27:39 * Wensley bops due on the head with a giant spiked club 04:28:00 -!- Wensley was kicked from ##crawl-dev by due [hits Wensley with Erolcha.] 04:28:05 :D 04:29:40 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 04:29:55 Hi. 04:30:05 I'm telling linley henzell on your 04:30:23 your... er, ODIOUS ACTIONS AGAINST MY INNOCENT PERSONAGE 04:30:24 On my mum? 04:31:07 -!- Wensley is now known as mrs_due 04:31:12 :) 04:31:14 how awesome 04:31:17 YOU IN BIG TROUBLE NOW 04:31:21 03due * r93834f43374a 10/crawl-ref/source/spl-summoning.cc: Malign Gateway has a chance of draining int. 04:31:30 Cool! 04:31:41 ooh, does that use the SHT drain int messages? 04:31:45 Yes 04:31:49 mwahahaha 04:32:23 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 04:32:43 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 04:33:01 Hiii Mu 04:33:12 yo 04:33:49 also while we are on the topic of summoning horrible things and tentacles and madness, I added another new monster proposal to the Abyss wiki page 04:34:01 link 04:34:18 https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:monster:abyss 04:34:23 very bottom 04:35:05 -!- Zaba_ has joined ##crawl-dev 04:35:30 I like the latter 04:36:41 the last one? because my favorite are the false exit portals 04:36:52 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:37:20 -!- Zaba_ is now known as Zaba 04:37:31 -!- mrs_due is now known as doent 04:37:34 yay rebase completely failing on non-linear history 04:37:56 i like the mirrored golem that gives you bad mutations that persist until you kill it, i'd prolly call the monster something else though 04:37:59 I'll better push now before someone does another commit 04:38:00 awesome 04:38:32 yeah, there's a lot of really good monster ideas for the abyss in there 04:38:35 Mu_: with the Abyss shifting randomly all the time, that wouldn't really be fair 04:38:59 I really enjoy the labyrinth worm 04:39:06 kilobyte: hurry up, i'm about to push more stuff throguh :) 04:39:28 due: ok, didn't finish the compile though so it may be bad 04:39:33 03kilobyte * rfc8716ae68c0 10/crawl-ref/source/ (player.cc religion.cc): Ashenzari: clarity at *****. 04:39:36 03kilobyte * r1d358ce83122 10/crawl-ref/ (32 files in 5 dirs): Abuse dpeg's temporary lapse of sanity for a little merge. 04:39:37 What function finds a random square? 04:39:39 03kilobyte * rf9dba2a13256 10/crawl-ref/source/ (7 files in 4 dirs): Scrolls of Curse Jewellery. Such an useful thing! 04:39:50 not much worse than a neqoxec tbh 04:40:50 the description makes it sound like you'd get many mutations 04:41:02 corruption golems would have to grant you tentacle mutations 04:41:41 hm 04:41:43 * kilobyte wonders how thoroughly you researched the source material. 04:41:46 "find random square in LOS" does not exist 04:41:54 why not? :| 04:42:06 or if it does I can't find it 04:42:28 yeah but with a chance to cure them all 04:43:36 tentacle mutation level 1: new auxiliary attack. tentacle level 2: add suckers to tentacles to hold enemies in place, effectively reducing their EV for one round after a tentacle attack hits. tentacle 3: poisonous barbs on the ends of the tentacles. 04:44:10 do tentacled monstrosities have constricting tentacles now? 04:46:01 splitting item stacks suck :( 04:46:33 ... 04:46:39 Someone suggested a boggart named Humphrey? 04:46:41 tehy should be shot. 04:49:14 Of all the levels in all the branches in all the dungeon, she walked into mine. 04:49:36 Where is compass defined? 05:01:55 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 05:02:01 High noon! 05:02:13 mu: now I'm imagining a noir-themed, depression-era chicago portal vault with all colors reduced to greyscale 05:03:24 due: is "eldritch" a proper English word? 05:03:31 kilobyte: good work! 05:03:49 Middle English from earlier elrich, equiv. to OE el- (“foreign, strange, uncanny”) 05:04:07 cool 05:04:16 doent: new to this place? Welcome! 05:04:17 dpeg: the scrolls are useless with the prayer, and that's not yet in 05:04:33 doent: it's me, wensley :P due and I are philosophically opposed today 05:04:37 dpeg: yes, definitely 05:04:40 s/doent/dpeg 05:04:44 and I'm going away for several hours 05:05:26 kilobyte: prayer? 05:05:31 kilobyte: and have fun! 05:06:09 dpeg: They're not demonic and I wanted to get away from demonic, Mu suggested Eldritch on-wiki. 05:06:24 sounds good to me 05:07:26 me too 05:10:56 I'm just implementing the "must have 8 squares" rule. 05:11:22 No mana cost if it fails. 05:11:37 Hm. 05:11:39 That might now work properly 05:11:56 if aboms get made magenta only we could have a whole host of weird X creatures 05:12:19 yes! 05:12:31 Hm. 05:12:38 Mu_: Agree. 05:12:42 I totally support making them magenta only. 05:13:39 dpeg: There's no mana cost if it fails to find space, and it doesn't take a turn. 05:13:43 dpeg: Is this okay, do you think? 05:13:54 03kilobyte * r2564a95c9927 10/crawl-ref/source/ (7 files in 3 dirs): Felids: steal a few tiles from NetHack. 05:14:31 due: most spells you know you're unable to cast do that 05:14:40 is nethack really a good place to get tiles from? 05:15:19 Actually, recasting doesn't help because if it fails to find it first go, it won't find it second. 05:15:22 So it's definitely okay. 05:15:33 Just need to dump the message for monsters, whoops. 05:17:05 bhaak: these tiles are ugly, but will do until we get replacements 05:17:13 I haven't seen them. 05:17:19 Are felids in trunk? 05:17:24 bhaak: showing a kitteh as a human is kind of worse 05:17:33 due: yes, Adam sneaked them in 05:17:37 kilobyte: just show it as a f ;-) 05:17:55 03kilobyte * r230022b17c31 10/crawl-ref/source/rltiles/item/scroll/ (i-curse-jewellery.png i-curse_jewellery.png): Use the filename tiles expect. 05:18:20 nice :) 05:19:18 dpeg: Should water count as floor? 05:19:23 Or does it have to be floor? 05:19:42 due: for MG? Yes, I'd say so. 05:19:53 Hm. 05:19:59 whoa whoa what, felids?! 05:20:15 due: I mostly want to give the tentacle space to squirm around. 05:20:25 will cats make it into .8? :P 05:20:54 well i'm going to go open my new board games while this does a complete recompiile 05:21:01 as i assume kilobyte's new scrolls hit nasty shit. 05:22:00 actually, we just need passable feats 05:22:06 so any traverisble feat is acceptable, hm. 05:23:10 sorear, bhaak, kilobyte, I know there's a way to pass a function as a parameter to another function in order to say "call this function for each of these" if, for instance, you were passing a vector and a function. 05:23:14 How is this done in C++? 05:23:50 just use the function's name without parentheses 05:24:08 and use a * in arg definition 05:24:29 (really got to go, vt100.h in termrec sources for example) 05:25:26 see you later, kilobyte 05:27:54 Whenever b0rsuk posts, I am slightly afraid these days :) 05:31:24 due: http://function-pointer.org 05:31:25 -!- Textmode has quit [Quit: Over the ages, man has been certain of a great many things. some of these things were even true.] 05:31:39 Zao: thanks 05:31:41 due: Free functions and static member functions are simple. Non-static member functions, less so :D 05:31:42 kilobyte: thanks also 05:32:22 int (*foo)(int, int); // foo is a pointer to function taking two ints and returning int. 05:32:31 ahah 05:32:45 typedef int (*Foo)(int,int); Foo foo; // same, but with friendly typedef. 05:33:04 I was getting to the boundaries of my knowledge when battling a switch statement yesternight :) 05:33:07 that's confusing. :) 05:33:34 basically i need something like check_adjacent_against_is(coord_def pos, bool (*checker)(dungeon_feature_type)) 05:33:41 I assume? 05:33:42 The type is int (*)(int,int) , you just have to stick the name in an odd place. 05:34:04 Ohhh. 05:34:11 'checker' is of type bool '(*)(dungeon_feature_type)' there. 05:34:25 Where you could pass something like bool f(dungeon_feature_type dft) { ... } 05:34:38 check_adjacent_against_is(some_pos, &f); 05:34:42 which is basically what i want 05:34:50 Or without the &, as legacy rules are fun. 05:36:27 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 05:37:21 Zao: http://pastebin.ca/1958070 05:38:05 I think that's correct, but getting someone to say yay/nay makes sense. 05:38:58 make my day, say yay or nay 05:39:07 dpeg: precisely 05:39:26 I'm fighting the urge to optimize 6-7 to count += checker(grd(*ai)); :D 05:39:38 why? 05:39:40 op-op-optimise! 05:39:51 Assuming that feat_is_solid is a free function or static member function, that looks sane. 05:40:05 bool feat_is_solid(dungeon_feature_type feat) 05:40:05 { return (feat <= DNGN_MAXSOLID); 05:40:05 } 05:40:10 * dpeg has been coding assembler when he was young (80286) and loved optimising for shorter code. 05:40:16 I'm assuming that's a free function? 05:40:26 A free function is not a member of a class. 05:40:28 Okay. 05:40:32 I assumed so but wasn't sure. 05:40:45 Regular old-fashioned function at global or namespace scope. 05:41:48 now.... 05:42:15 I'm assuming I cannot pass &!feat_is_solid? 05:42:40 Correct. 05:42:53 That's fine, I'll just reverse my logic on the other end. 05:43:09 (instead of !feat_is_solid >= 9, feat_is_solid == 0) 05:43:30 A more generalized concept of function pointers are functors, which are objects with an overloaded operator(). 05:44:01 C++ makes my brain hurt most of the time. 05:44:02 With such beasts, you could have a negate(&feat_is_solid), but it might be a bit too much magic :) 05:45:13 Targeting algorithm is not selecting the path that is clear (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2697) by SinsI 05:46:54 we're aiming for less more magic ;) 05:52:46 -!- rkd has joined ##crawl-dev 05:52:59 A shattered altar of Ashenzari. 05:53:03 :) 05:53:25 rkd: in game? 05:53:28 sounds hot 05:53:30 yea 05:54:57 tho I doubt it'll be fun with a heam using bows 05:54:58 :s 05:55:30 haha, indeed 05:55:49 I cannot see the ##crawl reactions to commits anymore. 05:56:12 fuck 'em? ;) 05:56:28 * dpeg fucks 'em good. 05:58:44 does spriggan suffer from not having gloves/boots? 05:58:50 when using ash 05:58:53 no 05:59:07 We learned from the Chei debacle. 05:59:23 do you suffer from not using a weapon with ash? 05:59:29 yes 05:59:51 You're keeping your hands intentionally free. Shame on you! 06:00:32 you could be wielding a rod or staff :P you could still butcher if you're a troll 06:00:40 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:00:47 so yeah, I guess ash doesn't like people using blunt weapons 06:00:50 doent: yes, only excludes unarmed fighters 06:01:04 doent: there is a spell now that dissects corpses (animate skeleton) 06:01:11 oh, that's cool 06:01:15 also why am I still named this 06:01:18 -!- doent is now known as Wensley 06:01:47 I wasn't aware that rods or staves could be cursed 06:02:04 not sure if that's already in, but it will be for release 06:02:14 cool 06:02:33 dpeg, I should try to write about baileys today... or, in the worst case, tomorrow. Weekend, and such :> 06:02:34 Cursing fun for the whole family! 06:02:35 !learn add bad_ideas cursed darts 06:02:36 bad ideas[2482/2482]: cursed darts 06:02:48 Zaba: hey, awesome! 06:02:54 if only there were a way to curse your hands so that they were forced to be empty, monks could worship ash without remorse 06:03:15 I would still love if it you tld me your opinion on my letter =) 06:03:20 Zaba: can also do here 06:03:31 I thin kanimate skeleton will be an essential for ashers 06:03:49 due: only for those not wielding a bladed weapon 06:03:49 at least for any who aren't stabbers or sworders or axers 06:04:25 stabbers will love Ash 06:04:26 dpeg: sure 06:04:27 and it's an optional conduct, in any case 06:04:42 we will see how it plays 06:08:45 It needs to try multiple times in each directoin... 06:08:56 the current once-per-direction is confusion with my added randomisation. 06:10:22 trolls can still use GSC and ash 06:10:27 if they would want to 06:19:06 [13:18] rickah (L5 SpEn) became a worshipper of Ashenzari. (Temple) 06:19:08 lets do this! 06:19:17 Ash is in trunk? 06:19:28 apperantly 06:19:44 Ash is not finished, though. 06:23:08 -!- casmith789 has joined ##crawl-dev 06:23:30 hmm 06:23:47 remove curse scrolls still gonna remove all cursed gear you have on you with ash? 06:23:48 :P 06:24:17 it shouldn't 06:24:37 well, theoretically it shouldn't, I don't know what's been implemented 06:24:37 it won't 06:24:40 it'll only remove one curse 06:24:42 rkd: it will askyou to select one item 06:27:26 is it dependant on piety? 06:27:56 rkd: what is? 06:28:21 the "remove 1 curse" ;p 06:28:37 not clear yet 06:28:46 removing items should reduce your piety a bit, though 06:29:00 if there will be no ways to get additional curse foo items then no piety cost for removing cursesy 06:29:07 well I only had 1 item cursed now that I read a remove curse scroll, so got no question. tho I'm guessing it hasnt even been implemented yet in the trunk build? :D 06:29:07 oh yeah? 06:29:46 I hate compilation. 06:29:47 if there will be such ways (e.g. Ash gifts Curse Foo scrolls, or you can turn Remove Curse scolls into Curse Foo scrolls), then such a piety cost is necessary (but it can apply in various places) 06:35:43 crawl-tiles timelapse recording put on hold until i find a way to automatically remove inventory/selection/stat screen frames 06:41:40 -!- ortoslon has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:42:15 03due * rb4008dd55ff6 10/crawl-ref/source/ (spl-cast.cc spl-summoning.cc): Don't let portals open right next to the player. 06:42:17 03due * r068474292249 10/crawl-ref/source/ (spl-summoning.cc terrain.cc terrain.h): Implement fancier location choosing for Malign Gateway. 06:42:34 dpeg: I think that fills your wants? 06:43:08 I think the only thing left now is determening the length of the actual sppell based in power (instead of a set length regardless). 06:43:56 ??malign gateway 06:43:59 malign gateway[1/2]: Summons a demonic tentacle 06:44:04 ??malign gateway[2] 06:44:04 malign gateway[2/2]: Kinky. 06:44:10 ??demonic tentacle 06:44:10 I don't have a page labeled demonic_tentacle in my learndb. 06:44:31 It's eldritch tentacle now. 06:44:38 !learn delete malign_gateway[1] 06:44:39 !learn delete malign_gateway[1] 06:44:39 Deleted malign gateway[1/2]: Summons a demonic tentacle 06:44:39 Deleted malign gateway[1/1]: Kinky. 06:44:43 -!- Wensley has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:45:16 !learn add malign_gateway Summons a portal through which an eldritch tentacle emerges. Depending on spell power, it will be friendly for a number of turns, before turning hostile, or the portal closes and it is severed, whichever happens first (either way, it will turn hostile). 06:45:17 malign gateway[1/1]: Summons a portal through which an eldritch tentacle emerges. Depending on spell power, it will be friendly for a number of turns, before turning hostile, or the portal closes and it is severed, whichever happens first (either way, it will turn hostile). 06:45:21 still haven't gotten one star with ash 06:45:38 !learn add eldritch_tentacle It's a noodly appendage of some massive creature from another world. Be very afraid. 06:45:39 eldritch tentacle[1/1]: It's a noodly appendage of some massive creature from another world. Be very afraid. 06:46:27 it's been 3.2k turns 06:46:29 :) 06:48:31 due: looks good 06:51:45 thank you 06:53:07 dpeg: do we still want the tentacles with chaotic bites? 06:53:20 Or just acid/poison/sicken? 06:53:24 plain MG tentacles or others? 06:53:37 Plain MG. 06:53:54 Currently their attacks are all plain. 06:54:03 not sure 06:54:09 chaotic bites would perhaps be okay 06:54:16 I think it's powerful enough without it... but chaos does make a bit of sense. 07:01:00 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 07:01:10 hi galehar 07:01:14 hi 07:01:53 I like the new topic 07:01:57 it's inspiring 07:02:32 "We're a bunch of kinky perverts and proud"? 07:03:40 yeah :) 07:03:47 I just want Mg to be finished so I can work on door mimics. 07:03:53 being chased by a door <33333 07:04:04 great idea 07:04:23 door mimics, didn't I saw that in another game? ;) 07:04:36 how about stairs? 07:05:13 There are door mimics in another game? 07:05:20 in nethack 07:05:27 oh really? 07:05:28 hm 07:05:34 I think so 07:06:06 I think every floor feature should be possible. At least altars and stairs I know for sure 07:06:30 fuck it, i want fucking door mimics, i'll get fucking door mimics :) 07:06:52 sure, it's a good idea 07:07:14 wikihack just confirmed it, mimics can be doors in nh 07:07:26 fuck nethack ;) 07:07:49 they've stolen your best ideas! 07:09:10 so... cats are properly in now? :) 07:09:49 they are 07:10:20 the commit message was funny :) 07:10:28 [14:03] being chased by a door <33333 07:10:32 My felid just died 07:10:36 you plan on making mimics move? 07:10:49 oh yes 07:10:52 well, these ones at least 07:11:19 the spells in demonology are in teh wrong order now btw dunno if you noticed that 07:11:25 Mu_: i'll fix 07:12:02 How? 07:12:35 oh never mind 07:12:40 i forgot the spell level was raised 07:12:49 it was originally 6, 7, 6 07:14:05 mwahaha 07:14:46 Why are felic rC+? 07:14:47 ??felid 07:14:49 felid[1/2]: A cat race that can use no armour or weapon, or wands. They gain extra lives as they level up, though! Available in the branch named "cats". 07:14:56 should prolly rename this book and stick horrible things in it, it's awful 07:24:07 or something 07:24:10 ??felid[2] 07:24:11 felid[2/2]: < elliptic> FR: walk on keyboard ability 07:35:08 O_o I wonder how many turns till I get my first star with ashenzari 07:37:19 rkd: i heard you cant gain piety yet 07:37:22 when was cdo last updated? 07:37:25 I don't think you can gain piety with ash on CDO :) 07:37:29 lol 07:37:30 right 07:37:35 gg 07:37:54 felids are in cdo? 07:38:04 well gonna try and get a ashenzari win anyway! 07:38:05 ;P 07:44:07 -!- galehar has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.10/20100914125854]] 07:52:00 -!- ortoslon has joined ##crawl-dev 08:00:09 -!- ortoslon1 has joined ##crawl-dev 08:00:09 -!- ortoslon has quit [Disconnected by services] 08:00:10 -!- ortoslon1 is now known as ortoslon 08:24:47 CIA-81 gone bye bye? 08:32:53 due: the CIA is very slow, I think. 08:33:40 I gather 08:33:46 temp friendliness in 08:33:50 varying with spell power 08:33:59 excellent spellcasting means that it'll last until the portal closes 08:34:04 medium means halfway, etc 08:34:42 good! 08:34:45 * due sleeps 08:37:17 night due! 08:41:12 03due * r0f52a983a170 10/crawl-ref/source/ (enum.h misc.cc mon-data.h monster.cc): Malign Gateway tentacles chaotic, friendliness tied to spell power. 08:41:35 @?demonic tentacle 08:41:36 unknown monster: "demonic tentacle" 08:41:38 @??demonic tentacle 08:41:38 demonic tentacle (13w) | Speed: 18 | HD: 12 | Health: 39-58 | AC/EV: 5/7 | Damage: 29 | Flags: 05demonic, amphibious | Res: 13magic(immune), asphyx | XP: 1133. 10:02:10 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 10:02:33 -!- rkd is now known as felidae 10:05:29 -!- monky has joined ##crawl-dev 10:05:37 -!- felidae is now known as rkd 10:25:04 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 10:37:24 03dolorous * r2fc5746a17fe 10/crawl-ref/ (docs/crawl_manual.txt source/dat/descript/species.txt): Add wording fixes. 10:37:27 03dolorous * r3ab823db3bc6 10/crawl-ref/docs/crawl_manual.txt: Add spacing fix. 10:37:30 03dolorous * rb18d67b7a499 10/crawl-ref/docs/crawl_manual.txt: Add formatting fixes. 10:37:33 03dolorous * r94fb987072ea 10/crawl-ref/docs/crawl_manual.txt: Add capitalization fix. 10:37:42 03dolorous * reb793b376183 10/crawl-ref/docs/crawl_manual.txt: Remove manual references to racial ammunition, as there is none anymore. 10:43:07 -!- casmith_789 has joined ##crawl-dev 10:43:12 -!- casmith789 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:44:56 03dolorous * r009bf77f193d 10/crawl-ref/source/abl-show.cc: Add minor cosmetic fixes. 10:44:58 03dolorous * r2192eeb00aa6 10/crawl-ref/source/abl-show.cc: Add proper message for felids' Injury Mirror (cf. their altar message). 10:47:48 rkd: I'd prefer to do the rest of Ashenzari's power before updating CDO 10:48:04 and yeah, him spawning on random altars is a bug (for now) 10:48:27 dpeg: once he's done, where is he supposed to spawn? 10:50:50 I'm gonna try and get a first ash win anyway xD 10:50:55 probably die soon 10:52:20 uhm, how did you manage that? The piety decays but there's no way to get it up. 10:52:38 it's not decaying I guess 10:54:59 you can always just go rejoin if piety does decay all the way 10:55:04 or rejoin on the way out 10:55:46 I've been with ash for 10k turns now 10:56:53 CDO is supposed to already decay it, so it's good to know about this 10:57:06 what rate is the decay supposed to be? 10:57:28 if it is slower than most gods, then it could just not have decayed all the way yet 10:57:56 1/25 god ticks (Trog has 1/14 which is highest, most gods have 1/17ish, Nemelex has 1/35) 10:58:12 when was the last some anyone tried compiling crawl with icc? 10:58:30 Zaba: two forevers ago 10:58:40 I shall try, then 10:59:24 back 10:59:49 MSVC can't seem to be able to read project files for any other version 10:59:52 hm, it warns on every ASSERT 11:00:52 kilobyte: Ash is an ordinary temple god. 11:01:55 ah, I had the impression he got banished 11:02:58 just got piety from 121 to 164 for exploring the Temple, with bondage level two 11:04:17 damnit 11:04:18 shoals 11:04:42 for some reason, icc can't find addnwstr, mvin_wch and add_wchnstr when trying to compile libunix.cc 11:04:56 and to 200 for less than one level 11:05:13 kilobyte: wow 11:05:21 that's way too fast 11:05:22 Zaba: with curses installed? 11:05:29 dpeg: obviously 11:05:33 And Ash was never supposes to be banished. 11:05:40 kilobyte, yes, ncurses on linux 11:06:30 kilobyte, I have changed the include in libunix.cc to just #include , with no surrounding if(n)defs, too, and it did not make a difference. 11:06:34 !apt sp spc 11:06:35 Could not understand "spc" 11:06:37 !apt sp splc 11:06:37 Could not understand "splc" 11:06:40 !apt sp spellcasting 11:06:40 Sp (SK_SPELLCASTING)=3 11:08:10 and... uh 11:09:41 wiz-item.cc(409): warning #186: pointless comparison of unsigned integer with zero 11:09:41 ASSERT(prop >= 0); 11:09:56 this looks somewhat pointless to me, too... 11:10:59 You start resting. 11:10:59 You have lost your religion! 11:11:02 there it comes 11:11:17 does not appreciate desertion! 11:11:30 what's the wrath? 11:29:06 -!- ortoslon has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 11:39:03 -!- ortoslon has joined ##crawl-dev 11:41:09 rkd: he'll look at you funny 11:42:32 lost 8 piety in 4k turns 11:49:37 -!- upsy has joined ##crawl-dev 11:51:39 dpeg: uhm, a problem. Which exactly parts of Ashenzari's wiki are official, and which are random additions by readers? 11:51:54 kilobyte: that's a tough one. 11:51:56 it's unclear especially as you liked some of the latter 11:52:00 Which bits are you talking about. 11:52:02 ? 11:52:30 piety, powers, wrath? 11:53:48 -!- bmh has joined ##crawl-dev 11:53:49 -!- bmh has quit [Changing host] 11:53:49 -!- bmh has joined ##crawl-dev 11:54:17 passive/active/bonuses, for start 11:54:25 hi 11:54:32 * kilobyte meows at bmh. 11:55:02 kilobyte: Implemented exploration points? 11:55:23 like, turning Remove Curse into Curse Foo on prayer I'm coding right now is one of such additions 11:55:34 so I don't know if it's supposed to be there or not 11:55:55 bmh: uhm, you asked me to push it faster yesterday, and I did 11:56:28 bmh: you.exploration -- a fixed-point real number that increases by 65536 every level 11:56:38 oh, wonderful 11:56:55 kilobyte: we definitely want: monster detection (as per antenna); mapping (as per DD, but it should work in labs and Abyss, if possible); full curse detection; identification as outlined on the wiki; detect traps (boost to skill from piety); portal vault announcement (if possible); curse prevention. 11:57:16 dpeg: You should start writing checks ;-) 11:57:33 kilobyte: I am _not_ sure about RC --> Curse Foo, because that has an impact on everything :) 11:57:38 03dolorous * rbf554ec12c0c 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-info.cc: Check for monster_info's non-displaying of wounds a bit earlier. 11:57:43 03dolorous * r062d432bf919 10/crawl-ref/source/ (mon-info.cc mon-info.h mon-util.cc): Make kraken tentacles/connectors inherit the head's intelligence. 11:57:54 bmh: most of the passive powers are not so bad, code can be recycled 11:58:18 fudging die rolls would be really tricky since most calls don't show if the roll is beneficial or not 11:58:29 kilobyte: fudging die rolls? 11:58:58 but that's not on your list, which makes them lose :p 11:59:05 yes 11:59:16 -!- Siber has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:59:23 "reducing the likelihood that enemies will succeed on any tests that invoke the RNG" 11:59:40 kilobyte: this is also something not very visible, so automatically uncool (even if powerful) 12:00:24 dpeg: You could make it visible with a message like... 12:00:34 "The Kobold fumbles with its glowing short sword" 12:00:59 The issues with the Curse scrolls are these: if rare, they're very valuable to an Ash follower. If they're too rare (which might be the case without help), they hinder followers too much. If we provide too many of them (the RC --> CFoo might do that), then we remove the challenge, and have to introduce it through the backdoor by making taking off or remove cursing cost piety. 12:01:12 bmh: even so: would that be cool? 12:01:17 Would it look godly? 12:01:31 Players being able to map Abyss and labs, this is useless, but properly divine :) 12:01:59 mapping the Abyss is damn problematic with respect to Abyss shifts 12:02:34 and there's an issue: 'X' is currently plain out disabled, but without it, those with tiny terminals are penalized 12:02:36 speaking of uncool abilities 12:02:40 Okie might is lame. 12:02:43 sure 12:02:46 bmh: yeah 12:02:49 kilobyte: it would be like labs: they can shift too 12:03:12 kilobyte: mapping only in vicinity is already useful in the Abyss 12:03:41 for example, "seeing" the portal as soon as it is in the minimal viewport 12:03:48 -!- CIA-81 has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:04:24 bmh: there's a fundamental disagreement about Oka between me and mostly dpeg, but while I do like the gift mechanism (with issues, as in promoting killing popcorn, and I don't say no to champions), but I do agree that might is plain out bad 12:04:49 kilobyte: disagreement on current or proposed Okasß 12:04:55 s/but// -- it's redundant with "while" 12:05:44 Any plans to ever allow players to trample monsters? 12:05:52 bmh: yes 12:05:54 the proposals are worse than status quo... and quite a few describe gods with no relations whatsoever 12:06:22 kilobyte: re Ash & Abyss: just print the portal as soon as it is in LOS+1 (even if hidden by walls) 12:06:42 bmh: there are two notions of trampling 12:07:16 gifts are interesting, liked by players, and while very useful, not outright overpowered, as they come for only two item types so they are worse than a plain out loot multiplier 12:07:41 dpeg: go on? 12:07:41 like barbarians in Diablo II, which was still a quite interesting things 12:08:12 kilobyte: I believe that smoother gifts (which my Oki proposal provides) is better. But that's another discussion. 12:08:29 sorry, I never played Diablo 12:08:37 bmh: trampling 1: Some monsters (beast, elephants, dragons) can push while attacking. The player can do the same in dragon form. 12:08:46 ah 12:08:47 trampling has the problem of making the play less streamlined, since you don't know if you'll trample the monster or not unless you take a moment to check what monster you're attacking 12:08:58 Trampling 2: A creature should be able to just squash a sufficiently smaller thing. 12:09:13 kilobyte: only trampling 2 has 12:09:41 dpeg: timed gifts are meh, gifts that come attached to champions or perhaps even random bigger monsters you find are ok 12:09:49 I suggested a different term for one trampling, but (as ever when it comes to words), got immediately booed out and stopped pushing the topic. 12:09:59 are xom gifts ok? 12:10:53 ortoslon: gifts that are not given maliciously are rare enough to be ok, I'd say 12:11:00 kilobyte: my idea was twofold: Oki can improve the gear you're wearing (this is what makes AC gain smoother, and has some interesting choices for the player); timed gifts allow the player to _work_ for an item he likes. Whereas now, he goes with the law of large numbers: one item in that huge pile must be good. 12:11:04 ortoslon: Xom in general is currently worse than no god 12:11:19 not sure that is true 12:11:56 only in early game, in my experience 12:12:42 xom's good things are more likely than bad, but almost none are permanent -- so you either get unreliable help when you don't need it, or get killed which _is_ permanent 12:12:43 kilobyte: Xom is hilarious. 12:13:00 or banished 12:13:07 kilobyte: tension checks could better, but I don't think it is so bad. 12:13:18 kilobyte: but abyss is a warm cozy place! 12:13:28 The abyss is dull. 12:13:41 You just run fast and you stay alive. 12:13:59 and apport consumables 12:14:22 early Abyss is good, late one is problematic 12:14:39 I for one like the Abyss, even current one 12:15:04 let's see how long I can stay alive as a level 1 spriggan in the abyss 12:15:16 but well, could we please decide something on Ash so I can code as we speak? 12:15:32 yes 12:15:33 especially the scroll prayer 12:15:54 kilobyte: apart from the passive powers, the scrolls have to change how they work 12:16:52 I believe the prayer is better than straight-out gifts since scrolls are a limited but not sharply limited resource you can manage, but again, I'm not 100% sure about that 12:17:00 -!- CIA-40 has joined ##crawl-dev 12:17:19 dpeg: you mean RC, right? 12:17:19 kilobyte: I basically agree, there are just so many RC scrolls around. 12:17:30 Of course, that's something we always wanted to address... 12:17:47 kilobyte: Remove Curse (select item to uncurse). Curse Foo (curse all worn items of that type). 12:17:48 dpeg: or do you mean you should be able to select the target for Curse Armour/Jewels? 12:17:59 or that 12:17:59 no, all of them, taht is best for players 12:20:07 i smell id minigame v2.0 12:20:55 ortoslon: not really 12:24:10 ortoslon: A provides passive identification 12:25:31 !learn add bad_ideas add a scroll of destroy item to spice up the id minigame. spawn rate = same as id scrolls 12:25:32 bad ideas[2483/2483]: add a scroll of destroy item to spice up the id minigame. spawn rate = same as id scrolls 12:27:15 ortoslon: NH has item destroying scrolls, not Crawk. 12:27:33 crawl, on the other hand 12:28:10 dpeg: did you see multirobin, by the way? 12:28:16 dpeg: :D. i've only played nethack far enough to lose my pet 12:28:32 Eronarn: no, what is it about? 12:29:13 03dolorous * r89d7ddfbca52 10/crawl-ref/docs/crawl_manual.txt: Tweak the manual's elven armour description to match the wiki. 12:29:23 dpeg: eronarn.info/multirobin - it is two parts (dtach to allow multiple simultaneous players controlling the same crawl game, and shellinabox to allow it to be accessed through a website) 12:29:40 wow, that's great 12:31:04 Eronarn: i see a blinking red cursor, what's going on 12:31:06 it's still pretty buggy, in that there are a bunch of things people can do that make it act weird (like connecting to it with a weird termsize), but a lot of that is due to part 1 12:31:17 part 2, shellinabox, works surprisingly well for netplay of crawl 12:32:24 Game crash in Cocytus (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2698) by 1 12:36:45 okay, got it back up now 12:38:34 i think if it were running on cdo or cao, it might actually be playable for people on decent connections on decently powerful hardware 12:38:45 (phone no, netbook maybe, any recent laptop yes) 12:41:11 Eronarn: not really, even unencrypted AJAX multiplies pings by at least 3 12:42:42 HTML5 is supposed to provide a way to do that with a single half-trip, but that part has only experimental implementations in Firefox 4 and Chrome, and they are incompatible with each other 12:43:33 kilobyte: i was expecting it to be intolerably slow, but it's only very slow, and that's with an additional layer of ssh from my server to CDO 12:43:56 the only way I know to do so with current browsers is so unholy I doubt you'll want it 12:44:26 the latency is definitely an issue, but on at least some connections it seems manageable 12:44:37 so i think it's worth experimenting with further 12:45:34 the client can fire up a request to keypress.178.was.up.arrow.eronarn.info -- and if it succeeds, the server answers NXDOMAIN, or an actual IP that will give an error message otherwise 12:46:02 hahaha 12:46:05 that's awesome 12:46:25 only one halftrip :) 12:47:11 how quickly should debt decrease? 12:47:38 for the way back, there are better known tricks like x-multipart-replace (better but not for IE) or long reads (work everywhere but show the window as "loading") 12:47:56 bmh: debt? 12:48:15 Eronarn: I'm revising wrath mechanics. As you spend piety you accrue debt to your god. 12:49:22 that shellinabox thingy gives me 100% CPU utilization 12:49:26 bmh: what about a makhlebite only in it for the healing on kills, or a fedhasite only using fruit powers, or something like that 12:49:37 bmh: I cannot say off-hand. 12:49:43 Depends on how debt is used later. 12:50:16 monky: Then they aren't getting the full use of the god then, 'eh? 12:50:27 I guess 12:51:19 gifts also count right? 12:51:24 for gods like veh 12:52:13 monky: Gifts makes your debt reduction slower. 12:52:45 so how do you determine debt for e.g. vehu, sifites who don't use amnesia, etc 12:52:52 bmh: again: does each gift reduce debt reduction, or do gifting gods have slower debt reduction? 12:53:47 dpeg: Undecided. What do you think? At the moment, I have Jiyva smacking the player with a slow reduction for getting Slime:6 loot 12:55:21 bmh: I cannot really answer any question as long as I don't understand how debt is utilised later. 12:55:39 dpeg: It's used for selecting wrath severity 13:01:13 bmh: I have this concept that some (but not all) wrath actions reduce severity. 13:01:23 Would these reduce debt in your context? 13:01:44 dpeg: Yes. 13:01:58 So what I call severity, you call debt, effectively? 13:02:31 -!- OG17 has joined ##crawl-dev 13:03:05 You pay off debts ;-) 13:04:10 in my system, severity was determined by what you did wrong 13:04:21 in your system debt is tracked by what you got from the god 13:04:37 correct 13:05:37 What you did wrong should still matter: for example, it should be different if someone simply switches from god A to god B, or to antaganostic god C. 13:05:38 If you're a [******] TSO worshipper with angelic choirs following you around and you get excommunicated, TSO should whack you harder than if you're a [------] peon who did the same bad thing 13:05:47 absolutely, yes 13:05:55 That's what I'm accounting for 13:06:18 This is what I proposed to track with "maximal piety ever reached with the god". 13:06:21 if you want excommunication effects to incur additional hurt based on their cause, by all means 13:06:40 Your system is finer in that it allows more control: it is easy to achieve ****** with most gods. 13:06:41 dpeg: Right, and debt tracking is meant to stop minor power scumming 13:07:22 I guess that certain actions will simply add to debt: destroying books for Sif debt (whether you follow her, or have followed her) 13:08:06 Going from TSO to Kiku should increase debt by a larger number than going to Sif. 13:08:11 etc. 13:08:20 who broke the build? /home/brendan/dev/crawl-ref/crawl-ref/WIZARD/source/dat/des/entry/entry_twisted.des:168: unknown monster: "felid" 13:09:04 * dpeg points at somebody else. 13:14:34 -!- casmith_789 is now known as casmith789 13:27:23 bmh: but one could still scum minor powers if they don't intend to change god? 13:27:31 can't you possibly make it so once a player reaches each '*' level with a god it will get that amount of punishment when you excommunicate. 13:27:48 so one can't get *** *** and then drop piety down to ... ... and excommunicate 13:27:49 rkd: That's loosely what I'm going for 13:28:00 rkd: that's long been taken caren of 13:28:26 ortoslon: scumming what? And how? 13:28:31 I see. well I just jumped into the conversation since I sat down just now :P looked like it was being discussed 13:28:41 what about intentionally keeping piety low to keep low-piety powers but avoid wrath later on 13:29:13 monky: you play with a crippled god. If that's actually good for you, we need to change the god. 13:29:14 spam oka might if that's his only feature you want before you ditch later on, etc 13:29:44 yea I don't see any benefit from any god by having only *** stars for example 13:29:56 dpeg: casting piety-free abilities for Invo skill doesn't count as scumming? 13:29:58 Why hasn't oka been simply removed yet? 13:30:07 monky: so you won't get gifts, and yes, Oka is problematic. 13:30:15 * rkd slaps sorear around a bit with a large trout 13:30:18 sorear: because 0.6 nerfed AC so much. 13:31:37 03dolorous * rc5bf44840e3f 10/crawl-ref/source/item_use.cc: Add wording fix. 13:34:24 sorear: and there's no concensus at all what O could be replaced with. 13:34:49 what does AC nerf have to do with oka 13:34:58 rkd: Where is trout slapping from? 13:35:16 !leard add greensnark Slapper of trouts. 13:35:23 !learb add greensnark Slapper of trouts. 13:35:27 !learn add greensnark Slapper of trouts. 13:35:28 greensnark[4/4]: Slapper of trouts. 13:35:35 bmh what do you mean? 13:35:43 nevermind :-) 13:35:44 elliptic: AC nerf made melee combat harder, O helps there. 13:36:19 is trog supposed to help there too 13:36:26 dpeg: AC nerf didn't make melee combat harder for the light-armour melee types though (who already existed) 13:36:42 I once suggested a god for heavy armour/ranged. :( 13:36:55 rkd: so what? 13:36:56 it may have been a bit biased and powerfull tho ;D 13:37:04 how about a god for breaking the build? 13:37:06 I've got a billion got proposals on the wiki :) 13:37:10 I'm just fooling around dude :o 13:37:10 rkd: Trog helps with both 13:37:34 ammo gifts 13:37:43 tho I have been thinking since that guy came up with radiant caverns. some form of god that has to do with non-living 13:37:49 You kneel at the altar of dpeg. 13:37:54 need to think up stuff tho :o 13:41:02 god of stashing! 13:41:16 jiyva 13:41:23 damn 13:41:48 -!- bmh has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:44:03 it is good to think out of the box for gods 13:44:20 instead: "I want a god that boost A + B" 13:44:37 rather: "I want a god about plants. Oh, it will be useful for C!" 13:45:03 I want a god about non-living, no idea what it would tho or who it would help! 13:45:06 does that count? :) 13:45:14 would do* 13:45:29 no, not really :) 13:46:37 in what way would it be about non-living 13:46:50 well first thing that comes to mind is allready existant god summoning, getting golems. and that's pretty much all I can think of atm :D 13:47:25 maybe it could focus on dungeon manipulation in some way 13:47:37 I want a god who does nothing for his worshippers 13:47:44 try ashenzari 13:47:52 but does bad things to everyone else 13:47:55 tho you will abondon her after 10k turns~ 13:48:17 Zannick: RNG 13:48:25 hahaha 13:49:06 GOD_NO_GOD does that 13:50:07 staircase god 13:50:11 I mean more like "You dare not worship me, foolish mortal?" 13:50:51 this would be more appropriate as a vault, probably, to avoid being broken 13:51:19 Zannick: sssh, I'm percolating an idea like this already, it's hilarious and awful 13:51:41 percolating? 13:51:45 how about a god of coffee? 13:52:19 !coffee everyone 13:52:20 * Henzell hands everyone a pot of irish coffee, brewed by the Serpent of Hell. 13:52:23 he grants non-nerfed haste 13:52:28 sleep res 13:52:32 but he stunts your growth 13:52:35 no stat-ups 13:52:50 k I thought of one ability for the non-living god. ability to change the foundation of walls. turning stone into rock walls and even changing the composition of metal/crystal at higher power 13:52:55 this, too, is hilarious and terrible 13:53:07 ^ not aimed at you, rkd 13:54:01 rkd: I think we'd need at least one artificial species first. undead aren't really non-living, they're just on a different axis of life 13:54:24 unless this god would turn you into a golem or something, that would be neat 13:54:25 artificial makes me think of robots/cyborgs 13:54:27 god of transmuters 13:54:36 but that doesn't seem like a good fit for crawl 13:54:43 I like niche gods, like Jiyva. 13:54:50 golems are just hebrew robots 13:54:54 Although players then always campaign for making them guaranteed. 13:54:56 there's also allready statue form 13:55:01 god of niches 13:55:06 !learn add bad_ideas god of sokoban. ability: summon boulders to trap and crush monsters with. conduct: no terrain destruction/digging ("cheating!") 13:55:07 bad ideas[2484/2484]: god of sokoban. ability: summon boulders to trap and crush monsters with. conduct: no terrain destruction/digging ("cheating!") 13:55:16 bahahaha 13:55:17 rkd: the nonliving god would love statue form 13:55:43 although that might shift him too much into chei's domain 13:55:58 but yeah, niche gods are great 13:56:22 i don't have any real ideas for niche gods 13:57:01 other than the extortionist (who will punish you if you don't worship him when you find his altar) 13:57:10 haha 13:58:42 trout god 13:58:47 <3 13:59:11 fish god of fish 13:59:23 the Grid God: piety loss for moving diagonally, moving ortho is faster 13:59:34 nonliving player race would be fun aswell, no armour slots, can only wear cloak/jewellery. would get some resistances as they level up tho. 13:59:39 the beogh of merfolk: creates water everywhere you go so you can remain fishy 13:59:57 god with piety gain only for being one turn away from death 14:00:07 rkd: what with food? 14:00:12 kilobyte: square los god with round los wrath and vice versa 14:00:19 these two don't get along very well 14:00:24 heh 14:00:47 kilobyte good question. maybe they eat stones? ;P 14:01:23 or maybe they dont have any healing like DD and material objects can give them regen. stones for example 14:01:24 rkd: no, I mean, there's no reason to have anything named "food". I'm talking about mummyness. 14:01:39 ie, no clock 14:01:42 god that turns viewport 90 degrees 14:01:51 ah 14:02:03 god that turns the map into a hex grid 14:02:07 but then, it's not that vital anymore with OODs and spawn cap 14:02:14 I wonder if, now that we have the OOD clock, we could eliminate food for everyone (and presumably eliminate mummies) 14:02:29 I like food 14:02:34 yum yum 14:02:35 food is annoying 14:02:39 god who is about leading the oppressed, tiny monsters (plain orcs, elves, goblins etc.) against their masters 14:02:48 sorear: actually, you do have a point 14:02:51 thoguh this leaves the question of what to do about trolls 14:02:51 undead reformist god 14:03:02 spellcasting would need something in place of hunger penalty 14:03:06 sorear: spell hunger 14:03:11 food is a great mechanic, it is only annoying if you are doing it wrong 14:03:14 and by hunger penalty I mean spell hunger 14:03:37 also eating chunks would need to remail for ghouls 14:03:43 sorear: or instead of eliminating food, we could just make permafood a lot less common :) 14:03:43 remain 14:04:12 the food clock is much more natural than the OOD clock 14:04:31 Eronarn: don't mess with my autoexplore habits :P 14:05:37 < monky> the beogh of merfolk: creates water everywhere you go so you can remain fishy 14:05:45 Armok 14:05:55 the god of fun and dwarf fortress 14:06:24 (flooding the dungeon is a terrible idea) 14:06:34 the fish god for merfolk would be more close to spider god for spiderform actually 14:06:37 Eronarn: there was some talk yesterday about a god and/or spell school for Things With Tentacles 14:07:13 4chan? /d/ 14:08:06 moot ignores your prayer 14:08:59 I proposed a Tentacles spell school in jest, but I do think more spells should use tentacles 14:09:31 krakenform 14:09:39 spell: tentacle hair 14:10:02 I think there's a spell or two on the tmut wiki page about tentacles 14:10:04 dpeg: I already proposed a new tentacle mutation here on the irc channel, but I don't know where to put it on the wiki 14:10:18 there's a brainstorming page for mutations, iirc 14:10:54 ah, so there is 14:13:06 dpeg: god of leading the oppressed could be generalized to god of using enemies' power against enemies 14:13:23 encouraging enslavement, confusion, crossfire, reflection 14:15:01 ortoslon: it is about smashing the establishment 14:15:07 Wensley: if you seriously propse a Tentaclemancy school, Eronarn will be behind you 200% 14:15:17 you would lead tons of lowly elves, hellbent on killing their master elves etc. 14:16:56 -!- joosa has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:17:33 tentacles shouldn't be a spell school 14:17:40 but i'd be all for more tentacle spells, gods, mutations, etc. 14:18:07 -!- joosa has joined ##crawl-dev 14:18:54 (i'd love to see one of the DS muts be tentacle-hands: can still use your hands but can't wear gloves) 14:19:37 constriction punches? 14:20:02 indeed. or innate reaching, maybe. 14:21:56 another possible tentacle trait: a chance that on any given turn, opponents are entangled and can't move away/act 14:22:04 this would be neat for tentacled monstrosities 14:22:49 Eronarn: this is constriction 14:23:16 ??naga reasons 14:23:17 naga reasons[1/8]: mmmm tail 14:33:18 dpeg: well, constriction as implemented right now just = an extra damaging attack, yes? 14:33:30 there is no constriction right now 14:33:46 later, it will be like hugging of bears: you cannot move away 14:35:01 * kilobyte gives you all a hug. 14:35:08 * dpeg dies. 14:36:19 -!- ortoslon has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:40:29 tentacle mutation proposed: https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:misc:mutations#tentacles 14:43:15 dpeg: anacondas have constriction, but it's just a description, it doesn't 'do' anything 14:43:56 I know, but we have plans to make nagas and certain snakes constrict 14:44:40 i know, we've had plans for that since the sf days :P 14:44:49 that's unfair 14:47:11 this is like b0rsuk's complaint why nobody coded his draconian ideas yer 14:47:23 they're obviously the most important topic on the list 14:48:30 do his draconian ideas involve removing draconians as a player species? because that would be pretty simple 14:48:47 why should we do that? 14:49:19 just kidding :P I was referencing that if he doesn't know how to code, then he should at least know how to delete code 14:50:09 even that is hard to do properly 14:52:32 in any case, I feel like demonspawn have kind of scooped draconians in the "I want random mutations to force me to adapt my playstyle" department 14:53:39 Wensley: they're fun now, aren't they? 14:54:15 ds definitely are 14:54:18 draconians... not as much 14:54:45 well, for DS I had a plan and there were good ideas for the mutations 14:54:55 for Dr, I recently cleaned up the wiki page, that's all :) 14:57:00 i wonder if dr would be more interesting if you chose your color 14:57:26 ds is a much more interesting/fun concept than dr, too, in my opinion, so unless dr get a reenvisioning I don't see them being too fun 14:57:28 so you start without knowing it, then get some number of XLs where you can find items / commit to gods / etc., then have to make a choice 14:57:56 choice is less fun 14:57:59 (alternate take on this - you could make it so you have to give up a type of dr you could be, at each level) 14:58:03 can as well ask on game start 14:58:11 Eronarn: same 14:58:27 XL 7 is a very good spot to reach for strategic decisions 14:58:33 dpeg: i think 'choice is less fun' is a pretty broad statement 14:58:49 and fwiw i don't think dr race impacts gameplay enough to make it a strategic choice 14:59:44 -!- TGWi has joined ##crawl-dev 15:00:29 the apt changes would have to be much bigger to make the dracs feel really distinct 15:00:45 there is more than aptitudes 15:00:47 see the wiki 15:01:06 apts are not really drac's draw 15:01:09 i'm talking about what's there right now only - the apt change, the breath weapon, the resists 15:01:29 btw, I'd support getting rid of the negative apt so it's not annoying when you get the wrong color 15:01:46 and a lot of them don't have one anyway, it's not unbalanced somehow 15:01:56 TGWi: well, it'll still be annoying if you get the color that doesn't provide the bonus to the apt you want :P 15:02:02 there is no wrong colour 15:02:04 (cue 'gtfo power gamer') 15:02:31 dpeg: red draconian as an IE 15:02:46 TGWi: not a recommended choice, so we don't care 15:02:56 dpeg: i disagree: there is definitely a 'wrong color' in that there are drac colors players don't want to play as 15:03:01 i think that's a pretty serious bug 15:03:08 see: wiki page 15:03:11 Dr are designed to irritate people who like to plan games in advance 15:03:13 Eronarn: this is not TGWi's meaning of wrong colour 15:03:27 dpeg: what do you mean 15:03:38 isn't that for TGWi to decide? :P 15:03:46 FE and IE are both recommended draconians, and 8 out of 9 times (or whatever?) there's no reason why they shouldn't be 15:03:48 TGWi: DrIE is unviable, so we don't care. 15:04:07 TGWi: so they should be de-recommended 15:04:16 ... 15:04:26 won't that leave dracs with like 5 recommended classes 15:04:36 no 15:04:55 there's no reason two of the better draconians should be de-recommended just because ONE color gives them a slightly worse aptitude 15:05:08 and no reason that one color should give them a slightly worse aptitude 15:05:29 Dr is for players who are able and willing to be flexible with what they find and colour they get. I don't think that listening to the vocal players who're not that is a good idea. 15:05:53 btw, red DrIE is _not_ so bad 15:06:03 you can't use your breath weapon without breaking ozo 15:06:10 greensnark pointed that out: you can use ring of Ice right away w/o drawback 15:06:17 and the school that all your spells are just got a worse apt 15:06:24 no you can't, you don't get rF until xl 17 15:06:53 was it always like this? 15:06:56 yes 15:07:06 anyway, the flexibility approach is part and parcel of the DR 15:07:09 it will stay 15:07:23 please stop the hyperbole 15:07:33 I am not telling you to remove the flexibility 15:08:07 * dpeg pulled an OG17 :) 15:09:46 03kilobyte * r7603d29c9c36 10/crawl-ref/source/ (describe.cc godprayer.cc religion.cc): Ashenzari: scroll prayer Remove Curse -> Curse Foo. 15:09:48 dpeg: DrIE is actually really good... not sure why you call it unviable 15:09:55 the best drac 15:10:04 elliptic: because red dr can give ice a worse aptitude if you get it 15:10:07 and yeah, being red isn't so terrible 15:10:45 people can roll with getting black draconian when they wanted mottled, but at best it leaves a bad taste when someone gets an opposing color 15:10:55 elliptic: yes, that was in reaction to "I got the wrong colour!" 15:11:05 TGWi: the point is that you don't "want" a colour 15:11:17 monky: right 15:11:25 monky: yes, that hits it 15:11:40 you don't "want" to be bad at ice, either; that's why you chose IE 15:11:43 kilobyte: cool! That prayer anywhere or at an altar? 15:11:46 no reason draconian should punish you for that 15:11:53 dpeg: I don't think drac is about being flexible currently 15:11:59 the apt differences are irrelevant 15:11:59 elliptic: sure 15:12:01 I'm not sure why you want to keep the negative aptitudes on white and red; that's all I'm suggesting 15:12:09 I am actually doing something here, no more about Dr from me 15:12:10 you just get a random breath and maybe a resist 15:12:16 no flexibility involved 15:12:18 dpeg: anywhere, no need to force travel when it has no tactical effect 15:12:24 elliptic: Was it better back when cross aptitudes were 180? 15:12:41 kilobyte: there is a reason: do we want that ability to be available tactically? 15:12:44 and the breath might be ridiculously good or nearly useless 15:13:03 kilobyte: see foo with cold attack, pray, change gear to rC. We might, I am not sure. 15:13:18 the other issue is that people "wanting" certain colors is because some of them are really really weak, but I think everyone knows that 15:13:27 sorear: not sure, I wasn't around then to try playing it... but at least then the apt differences would mean a bit more 15:13:34 nobody is pro-half of the draconians sucking 15:14:01 pretty sure there's a wiki page about unsucking drac colours 15:14:04 dpeg: you hardly ever explore during a fight, so there is no pressing need to curse your rC gear right away 15:14:05 yes 15:14:37 pretty sure all it needs is a patch, there's nothing contentious about it 15:15:11 re: draconian wiki page 15:15:18 kilobyte: okay, so let's go with it. 15:17:23 sorear: I don't think more negative reinforcement is a good idea; people can't decide to change their class 15:17:49 and again, only two draconians have negative apts and they're among the weak ones 15:17:55 black might also, actually 15:18:19 !apt dr[black] earth 15:18:19 Dr[black] (SK_EARTH_MAGIC)=-2 15:18:44 point is, even if you give someone 180 apt suddenly, they're still stuck with 12 air/fire/ice magic and no spells from other schools 15:18:56 that's not fun and that's not adaptation, it's just getting screwed 15:18:58 even if it is minor 15:19:57 Draconians: not for wimps. 15:22:41 draconians just aren't interesting aside from the breath weapon, and half of the breath weapons are pretty terrible 15:22:49 We know this. 15:23:02 solution: make half of the draconians less terrible, as proposed on the wiki 15:23:13 it would help a lot just to buff the terrible breath weapons 15:23:23 it's almost as though I just said that 15:23:35 There is no plan I'd be happy to propose for coding on the wiki. Go there and improve it. 15:23:51 We all know the complaints, no need to repeat them infinitely. 15:26:29 simple proposal: increase damage for black/red/white drac breath by 50% 15:26:48 -!- bmh has joined ##crawl-dev 15:26:51 -!- bmh has quit [Changing host] 15:26:51 -!- bmh has joined ##crawl-dev 15:27:45 and purple 15:27:52 double purple. 15:28:07 not sure about purple 15:28:23 purple breath is really weak 15:28:27 purple seems more magic-focused 15:28:38 I think it is fine flavor-wise for purple to get a weak breath 15:28:51 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 15:28:53 purple gets huge MR to make up for it 15:29:13 purple breath is so terrible though 15:29:22 and red gets rF to make up for it, what's your point? 15:29:46 huge MR is more unique 15:29:55 also purple breath is better than red breath right now already 15:30:21 so double red and +50% purple :P 15:30:39 clearly the numbers could be tweaked 15:30:40 or something, idk, all I know is purple is seriously underwhelming too 15:30:56 it's not an awful race or anything but the breath isn't good 15:31:06 and that's the main thing for draconians 15:31:59 purple also gets better apt boosts than any other drac 15:34:13 what's the red drac breath called? 15:34:51 zap_breathe_fire, surprisingly 15:35:18 3, 4, 1, 3 for damage, 8, 1, 6 to hit 15:35:26 breathe power is 3, 3, 1, 3 and 5, 1, 6 15:35:37 it's definitely worse 15:36:19 it is also unresistible, which is far more important 15:36:58 I'll agree that a small buff wouldn't be bad, but I don't think purple breath _should_ be as good as the other breaths 15:37:07 it's balanced at best; they should all be buffed 15:40:39 -!- Wensley has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:40:57 yay, found use for kiku corpse delivery->torment! 15:41:58 that can't be hard to change, it's just a few numbers changed in zap-data.h 15:42:06 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 15:42:11 hm 15:49:10 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:09:30 -!- eith has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:13:09 -!- TGWi has left ##crawl-dev 16:23:35 Impossible to alt-tab out of linux tiles version (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2699) by Dutchy 16:39:26 -!- bmh has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:41:37 has something changed in labyrinth code or is this old 16:41:49 2x2 area enclosed in transparent wall with loot in it 16:45:29 that is ancient, felirx :) 16:45:35 Just a little lab vault. 16:45:48 now I met a hunrgy ghost too, random occurences ftw! 16:46:30 the hungry ghosts are cool, eh? 16:47:08 not like I'll starve anytime soon 16:47:11 kiku at max piety 16:48:01 Kiku has become really popular... there were times when people wouldn't take him on even for money. 16:48:18 this has to be the largest labyrinth I've ever seen :( 16:48:35 haha :) 16:49:49 minotaur was behind a door 16:52:38 felirx: I hope you knocked politely. 16:53:34 Hungry ghosts in labs are a nice touch 16:55:17 -!- TGWi has joined ##crawl-dev 17:10:37 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 17:11:11 -!- TGWi has left ##crawl-dev 17:14:49 dpeg: how big Ashenzari's bonus to T&D should be? 17:17:11 and should it apply to disarming, or merely detection? 17:17:34 kilobyte: out of the top off my hat: EITHER skill += piety/10 OR independently of T&D checks, a chance of piety/500 to detect them. 17:18:35 the former is a bit of a crutch: adding piety to a skill 17:18:43 the latter is an independent check, so might be better 17:22:09 there are several uses, so the latter is somewhat tricky 17:22:54 1. stepping on a trap, 2. chance to run passive detection, 3. passive detection radius, 4. actual chance to detect 17:24:20 I guess that Ashenzarites won't much emphasis on T&D anyway, but a solution that makes that effect as small as possible is desirable. 17:25:04 heck, what if Ash does not care? 17:25:17 traps are not curses, after all =) 17:26:32 they sure feel like it to me :( 17:26:41 it was very natural to add trap detection to Ash because we had the spell 17:27:00 monky: traps are not really well designed in Crawl :( 17:27:06 shafts are okay, but else... 17:27:07 my first idea was to give skill+=piety/20 17:27:19 but it's a question how good Ash should be 17:27:36 kilobyte: that is actually okay 17:27:47 the old spell removed almost all of danger, so yours piety/10 might be better 17:28:41 can't decide which is better... 15 then? 17:28:46 sure! :) 17:28:55 this will be easy to tweak 17:31:46 03kilobyte * r278de29bf48f 10/crawl-ref/source/dgn-overview.cc: A whitespace fix. 17:31:50 03kilobyte * ra6c1699da641 10/crawl-ref/source/ (effects.cc effects.h): Remove the code for a long-gone amnesia effect. 17:31:51 03kilobyte * rda7a69eb2a72 10/crawl-ref/source/spl-summoning.cc: Allow Stick-To-Snakes on staves. Definitely sticks. 17:31:53 03kilobyte * r885e401fec00 10/crawl-ref/source/command.cc: Don't claim &G "banishes" monsters. 17:32:03 03kilobyte * r04bf36cc82ae 10/crawl-ref/source/player-equip.cc: Fix rods not iding their cursedness outside of wizmode. 17:32:03 03kilobyte * r6f0750b3c48a 10/crawl-ref/source/ (6 files): Allow staves and rods to become cursed. 17:32:03 03kilobyte * r89e52a0b0125 10/crawl-ref/source/ (main.cc misc.cc player.cc player.h): Ashenzari: passive detection of traps and secret doors. 17:32:09 03kilobyte * rbb70fffd579b 10/crawl-ref/source/ (main.cc mutation.cc): Ashenzari: passive detection of monsters. 17:32:20 Wow. 17:37:16 kilobyte: "uncursed staff of power" is ok, we just have to get used to it. 17:37:37 sucks a bit, but I have no good ideas for it right now :( 17:38:28 why is it worse than an "uncursed short sword"? 17:39:38 don't most weapons stop saying 'uncursed' when you've identified their hit/dam bonus? 17:40:29 yeah, you see "uncursed" only on new stuff 17:41:30 there are (longterm) plans to make staves more interesting, so perhaps "uncursed staff of power" will motivate us to think more in this direction 17:42:29 the Detect Items spell is still on Xom's list 17:42:40 that's okay 17:42:59 unscummable and thematic (a sign of Xom's sudden greed, or whatever) 17:45:48 kilobyte: it is also conceivable that Detect Items will resurface in other forms, e.g. rods or misc item -- as long as it can't be scummed like a spell. 17:46:02 um... rod? :) 17:46:26 Eronarn: ...of divination 17:46:38 but the mechanics would have to be different, yes 17:47:16 dpeg: if you get one, it's still just as scummable, is what i mean - rods being infinite-use is good, and rods working all the same is also good 17:47:40 won't discuss this now 17:47:46 too idle talk 17:54:47 -!- TGWi has joined ##crawl-dev 17:59:33 03dolorous * r26106d48b43f 10/crawl-ref/source/kills.h: Make apostrophise_fixup() prototype match the actual function. 17:59:38 03dolorous * r7187bfc6f670 10/crawl-ref/source/ (15 files): Move apostrophization functions from kills.cc/h to libutil.cc/h. 18:00:41 issue: if passive item detection should show item types, we'd have to show them somehow. In console, this would require finding an unused colour for all item types. In tiles, we'd need a tile for every type. 18:01:14 would someone cry if we showed just presence, as in the old spell? 18:01:20 yo 18:01:41 kilobyte: presence is okay 18:01:49 kilobyte: for more information, there is always scrying 18:02:19 I believe there are ways to make detection feedback cooler, but the very basic version will allow us to play the god, which is the most important bit. 18:02:38 hi due! 18:02:42 hi 18:02:43 has CDO been updated recently? 18:02:50 03kilobyte * r7632d0aba21d 10/crawl-ref/source/ (main.cc spl-goditem.cc): Ashenzari: passive detection of items. 18:03:11 can't wait to see ash in action 18:03:22 I played ash in action 18:03:23 ! 18:03:26 Mu_: rkd played him today. Withotu piety coded yet :) 18:03:31 ;p 18:03:45 it was a long bonding journey we had together 18:03:47 what does ash do with curses atm? 18:04:34 !lg * god=ashenzari 18:04:34 3. lomarcan77 the Chucker (L6 HuCr), worshipper of Ashenzari, slain by an orc wizard (a +0,+0 orcish dagger) on D:3 on 2010-10-09, with 355 points after 3897 turns and 0:20:03. 18:04:44 !hs * god=ashenzari 18:04:44 3. nht the Cudgeler (L8 OgAs), worshipper of Ashenzari, slain by an iguana on D:7 on 2010-10-08, with 1389 points after 5889 turns and 0:28:30. 18:05:33 * kilobyte should have been more careful making sure Ash is properly disabled. 18:05:54 hah, what happened? 18:07:02 sorear: people playing half-implemented gods. 18:07:34 or in this case more like 5% 18:08:16 People could see Ashenzari's toe and they immediately grabbed it. 18:11:38 -!- rkd has quit [] 18:16:22 I can't think of a good message when Ash averts a mummy/deck/miscast/Chei curse. 18:16:42 how would ash do that? 18:16:42 silently suppress it? 18:17:45 there's usually a message 18:18:15 "Ashenzari protects you from [this|the mummy's] malign curse."? 18:18:46 I thought Ashenzari was supposed to be unable to affect things 18:18:56 TGWi: so you thought 18:19:41 most messages already include a "malignant aura" so this particular word would be overused 18:20:02 kilobyte: I wanted to indicate that this is a bad type of curse for Ashenzari. 18:20:43 better to indicate that the mummy curse is insignificant compared to the god's curse 18:20:45 perhaps Ashenzari's curse is such that any curse his worshippers take goes to Ashenzari instead 18:20:49 "...belligerent curse." ? 18:21:03 as I also thought "unable to affect things" was a big thematic thing 18:21:07 OG17: or that, also possible 18:21:30 sorear: good idea! 18:21:34 well, what's the problem with a god of curses affecting/redirecting/whatever curses? 18:21:36 I like sorear's too 18:21:42 yeah, that's a good one 18:21:44 it's not a god of curses, it's a god that is cursed 18:21:51 just need a wording 18:21:53 TGWi: our choice what the god is 18:22:10 absorbs the curse? 18:22:35 he takes the curse for you, because the ones that are already keeping him in "exile" make the ones he's blocking look like a mosquito bite or something 18:23:09 better if it's not intentional, but just that the curse is drawn to him 18:23:16 kinda of a drop-in-the-ocean thing 18:23:24 benevolently absorbs the curse. 18:23:41 but better to not say why 18:23:46 just "absorbs" and that's it 18:23:49 "benevolently" implies intention 18:23:57 "ashenzari absorbs the curse" is fine 18:24:01 ok then 18:24:11 TGWi: yes, realised that too 18:24:23 TGWi: the less we say about why this god acts the way he does, theb etter 18:24:40 as long as we're sure that we cannot come up with a backstory, everything is fine 18:24:52 maybe "the curse is diverted to ashenzari" or similar 18:24:57 s/cannot/can/ :) 18:24:58 03kilobyte * raab7deb984d2 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-stuff.cc: Ashenzari: no mummy/deck/miscast/Chei curses. 18:25:06 "ashenzari grants you boni for wearing cursed items, just deal with it" 18:25:12 that should be the actual description in ^ 18:25:14 "The @foo's curse seeks out your divine patron." 18:25:24 OG17: this sounds a bit better 18:25:35 (it should definitely be the curse taking action, not ash himself) 18:25:50 ero's is good 18:26:35 I like "is drawn to" more than "seeks out" 18:26:36 no, I think it is too active 18:27:34 "absorbs" is ambiguous, it sort of sounds like he's intentionally intercepting it 18:27:44 OG17: I like ambiguous. 18:27:45 you could just use passive voice 18:27:52 "the curse is absorbed by ashenzari" 18:27:59 ew 18:27:59 or "ashenzari's" 18:28:02 TGWi: yes, that is better. 18:28:09 monky: I think you're gross too 18:28:11 :( 18:28:13 omg not the passive! 18:28:16 monky: I don't! 18:28:18 I hate passive voice 18:28:24 Good idea, though. 18:28:26 ok, I do! 18:28:39 i think something like 'suffering' would be nice to include 18:28:41 but, not exactly that 18:28:44 plight, maybe? 18:28:50 where 18:29:09 Tons of opinions when it comes to words :) 18:29:22 how about "the curse is absorbed into ashenzari" 18:29:27 This was why renaming anything is so damn hard. Good thing the god has a name already. 18:29:34 OG17: I like it. 18:30:31 TGWi: maybe in the ^ screen. "Ashenzari is bound to suffer malign curses in your place." 18:31:07 not sure if this warrants a line in ^ -- lines are scarce 18:31:19 I think it should be silent 18:31:27 03dolorous * r3a9f930a6a9f 10/crawl-ref/source/player-equip.cc: Add formatting fix. 18:31:29 it makes it sound like all death curses would be deflected 18:31:31 03dolorous * r4fc47b3c3096 10/crawl-ref/source/describe.cc: Simplify the displaying of certain god abilities. 18:31:51 "silent" as in "not in ^" 18:33:01 OG17: yes, we'll see 18:33:19 once players complain that they can't scum mummy curses, we'll have to react 18:33:54 is doy around? Was wondering if he was able to do anything with 2608 18:33:57 elf walls 18:37:09 03dolorous * r5db0433d75ab 10/crawl-ref/source/describe.cc: Shorten Ash's scroll-curse ability description to fit in 80x24. 18:38:18 03kilobyte * r6b41ac5c7a50 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-stuff.cc: Ashenzari: use passive voice for the curse absorption message. 18:39:02 feawn is still a good name 18:39:19 and "madash" is utterly silly :( 18:39:45 fedhas feawn 18:40:29 feawndas 18:40:56 03dolorous * r5bd237b50496 10/crawl-ref/source/religion.cc: Avoid duplicate sacrifice message, even if currently unused. 18:45:04 what's the current god cout? 18:45:06 count 18:45:19 15+3=18, I think 18:45:22 only nine to go 18:46:07 only nine gods 18:46:18 yes 18:46:47 Divine harmony can only be established with 3^3 gods. 18:47:18 'is None a god?' 18:47:24 no 18:47:41 is "no specie" a species? .... 0 != 1 18:48:40 no god is not a god, but I don't particularly like that comparison, because you can play without a god, but you have to have a species 18:49:04 * due kicks TGWi in the chest. 18:49:08 got to admit that 18:49:17 due: ow 18:49:46 * dpeg likes the benevolent outbursts of violence from down under. Must be a happy people :) 19:04:22 could the "all human uniques are speed ten" thing be reverted? The reasoning for it is apparently beyond terrible, and having them be slower or faster than the player made for more interesting play 19:05:47 'more interesting' 19:06:01 yes 19:06:10 because they are slower or faster than the player 19:06:24 yes it's very interesting to have a unique that is like other orcs except for some reason it's slower and you only know that if you examined its description (and only in more recent versions of the game anyways) 19:06:32 (no it's not, you're wrong, give up) 19:06:47 are you serious? Old versions of the game use the old speeds 19:07:11 and monsters having different stats sort of does a lot to make them different, yes 19:07:33 guys let's make orc warriors (only) have a draining attack 19:07:41 it will make them different and interesting from other orcs 19:07:42 why not 19:07:59 call them necrorcs or whatever 19:08:12 how is this relevant 19:09:11 okay, i'm fine with it if we change it to Erica the inexplicably fast human 19:09:36 perhaps "monsters aren't players" is a little more important than you think 19:09:41 oh god not this again 19:09:47 duke it out in PM guys, we're sick of it. 19:10:16 I'm asking if it could be reverted, though 19:10:39 OG17: your reasoning was not compelling. 19:10:48 what was the reasoning to change it, then? 19:11:27 speed 9 and 11 makes a big difference, especially early on when most players won't have swiftness/etc 19:11:33 I am worming, won't discuss this. Can of worms, nothing will happen anyway. 19:11:40 *working 19:11:42 nice slip 19:12:19 and just for fun, klowns are speed 15 humans 19:12:39 yes, the change only affected speed +/-1s 19:12:51 i would've gone further than that if i were the one committing it, but i wasn't 19:13:18 why do you think that 9-10-11 isn't significant 19:13:28 actually back to ##crawl I guess 19:17:39 speed differences made sense to me. agnes was described as lithe and acrobatic, so she was faster than most people. same for klowns, i guess. they're acrobatic too. blork's description says he's big and fat so that's why he was slower. etc. don't see why it's thematically inappropriate to have different speeds. they are ~unique~ monsters, no sense them all being homogeneous. 19:17:43 bye 19:17:45 -!- Mu_ has quit [Quit: Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place.] 19:18:22 Find ten differences between the presentations of Mu and of OG17. 19:19:15 he's not saying what I was saying 19:19:47 though it's in agreement and all 19:20:17 wait agnes isnt speed 15 anymore? 19:20:27 "apparently beyond terrible" vs "makes sense to me + acutal reasoning§ 19:20:57 @??agnes 19:20:58 Agnes (11i) | Speed: 18 | HD: 11 | Health: 100 | AC/EV: 0/20 | Damage: 30 | Flags: see invisible | Res: 06magic(102) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 2973. 19:21:00 or 18 19:21:11 she just isn't a human now 19:21:13 oh she is a spriggan now 19:21:22 "better for gameplay" is a reason, though I suppose it's possible that eronarn's reasoning isn't what was used at the time of the change 19:21:23 @??spriggan 19:21:25 spriggan (15i) | Speed: 16 | HD: 7 | Health: 14-27 | AC/EV: 1/20 | Damage: 10 | Flags: see invisible | Res: 06magic(65) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 305. 19:21:46 so spriggans aren't even that speed normally, not sure how it makes much more sense 19:21:53 "better for gameplay" is a statement, a claim, not a reason 19:21:55 agnes was 18 for a long time, it's why she was compared to a grey snake 19:22:18 I think it should be reverted because the old way was better for gameplay 19:22:22 is that not a reason? 19:22:31 half of it 19:22:44 what's missing? 19:22:56 why it is better for gameplay in your opinion 19:23:16 I could come along and meaningfully say that equal speeds are better for gameplay. 19:23:32 that followed. When most players are speed ten, things being nine or eleven mean that they'll be approached differently 19:23:54 I thought that'd be self-evident 19:24:08 OG17: I don't think that you realise how much force your words lose when you start with "apparently beyond terrible." 19:24:08 I don't particularly think the change is good or bad, but this is mostly due to the fact speed 11 or 9 didn't matter much in the case of these uniques 19:24:13 it affects retreats and so on 19:25:28 eronarn's explanation is beyond terrible, at the least. I could've avoided that, I guess 19:25:43 though I'd think the game would come before the wrapping 19:25:57 Someone has to wade through all the words. 19:26:10 but back to work 19:30:50 -!- syllogism has quit [] 19:37:26 -!- OG17 has quit [Quit: OG17] 19:37:40 Now, therre was something I said to myself "will do this tomorrow" and now I can't remember what it was. 19:37:44 But it was something to do with malign gateway. 19:37:57 chaotic attacks? 19:39:20 did that last night 19:39:51 door mimics :) 19:40:20 st_ is very attentive :) 19:41:02 :) 19:41:07 I'm going to recolour abominations first. 19:41:11 Are we all cool with that? 19:41:38 I'm signing off on Malign Gateway in this case. 19:41:55 necromancy made aboms are lightred and red (when rotten meat is used), is that what you'll do? 19:42:33 due: why? 19:44:04 dpeg: Recolouring aboms? 19:44:21 They're randomly coloured, if we make standard ones a specific colour, that means we can use x for other cool things. 19:44:24 *X. 19:44:57 due: ah, I see 19:45:09 but random colours were probably also good for something 19:45:18 Do you know what you want the other X for? 19:45:34 Abyss-related creatures, tentacled starspawn, stuff like that. 19:46:11 Are there cases where abomination are given specific colours? Can they come up in masses somehow? 19:47:11 * due investigating. 19:47:19 Red/lightred for twisted resurrection, I believe. 19:48:15 -!- OG17 has joined ##crawl-dev 19:53:14 -!- Guest69616 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:53:24 -!- Guest69616 has joined ##crawl-dev 19:53:29 -!- Twilight-1 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:54:35 -!- Wensley has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:54:36 -!- Twilight has joined ##crawl-dev 19:54:52 Okay, the only specific colouring of abominations is brown/red/lightred for twisted resurrection. 19:55:00 I think making all other abominations magenta should be cool? 19:55:02 -!- Twilight is now known as Guest78781 19:55:25 same as orb guardians 19:55:29 from what colours are kraken chosen 19:55:36 oh 19:55:39 monky: random 19:55:47 kraken are okay, though 19:55:49 st_: forgot 19:55:55 hm, damn 19:56:14 due: I would suggest to take colours from abominations when needed. 19:56:15 green, and magenta are used 19:56:19 Is there an X you want right now? 19:56:22 dpeg: Yees. 19:57:13 Brown/red/lightred, green and magenta are used. 19:57:18 due: pick a colour and take that colour away from abominations? 19:57:30 Well, that's an option. 19:59:46 I'll do the code for now and remove brown/magenta/lightred/red/green. 20:00:11 ok 20:00:22 -!- TGWi has left ##crawl-dev 20:01:10 I'll do the same for small abominations too. 20:01:30 Magenta is the only used one for them. 20:02:40 That way adding new 'X' monsters is easy because you can just add that colour to the list of "you no get" 20:02:58 dpeg: ecellent idea, thanks 20:03:05 Until there are no colours left for the poor abominations. 20:03:13 * dpeg sheds some tears in advance. 20:03:57 -!- OG17 has quit [Quit: OG17] 20:03:58 It should be okay. 20:04:06 I only intend to use lightcyan at the minute. 20:04:13 -!- OG17 has joined ##crawl-dev 20:04:21 * dpeg picks up his tears again. 20:06:41 :) 20:08:31 dpeg: did you see my tile for maligngateway? 20:09:06 http://crawl-ref.git.sourceforge.net/git/gitweb.cgi?p=crawl-ref/crawl-ref;a=blob;f=crawl-ref/source/rltiles/dc-dngn/gateways/dngn_starry_portal.png;h=5eccbc81493c52382d94f00cc3d9e09d680f6457;hb=master 20:09:31 -!- OG17 has quit [Quit: OG17] 20:10:34 -!- OG17 has joined ##crawl-dev 20:10:57 -!- OG17 has quit [Client Quit] 20:11:12 -!- OG17 has joined ##crawl-dev 20:11:13 due: that's the gate? 20:14:11 3 am, gotta sleep 20:17:41 yes 20:17:44 sleep well! 20:18:18 look deep (the tile) :) 20:19:41 yes, i like it ): 20:19:43 it's all starry 20:39:14 03due * r350040c97dab 10/crawl-ref/source/ (mon-data.h mon-util.cc mon-util.h): Restrict abominations from using certain colours (dpeg). 20:42:09 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 20:58:19 ARGH. 20:58:24 I typo'd the name of one of the new mimics. 21:01:03 03dolorous * rf2eb07af770d 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-util.cc: Comment fix. 21:01:06 03dolorous * rf04a058fca01 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-util.cc: Add minor cosmetic fix. 21:01:07 03dolorous * r863140cd182b 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-util.cc: Typo fix. 21:01:15 03dolorous * r4b20b6a6430c 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-util.cc: Simplify abomination color restrictions to use do/while. 21:25:07 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 21:25:29 so I'm drawing a blank here, are there any enemies that use the 'n' glyph? 21:26:34 ah, ghouls do. not sure what else 21:26:49 ghouls 21:26:51 necrophages, rotting hulks 21:26:54 rotting hulks 21:26:56 necrophages 21:27:57 I only ask because I see that someone propsed "very beautiful things" as a new holy counterpart to "very ugly things" 21:28:27 I don't like it, to be honest. 21:29:26 I'm not saying it's the best idea, only that it would be amusing from a glyphs perspective 22:09:16 Hm, only need to store the shop name for shop mimics. 22:09:59 we already have A 22:10:01 :) 22:14:56 oh man, shop mimics?! 22:15:30 Elvy pacification messaging fix (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2700) by RangerC 22:23:23 // New mimics 22:23:23 MONS_DOOR_MIMIC, 22:23:23 MONS_PORTAL_MIMIC, 22:23:23 MONS_TRAP_MIMIC, 22:23:23 MONS_STAIR_MIMIC, 22:23:25 MONS_SHOP_MIMIC, 22:23:28 MONS_FOUNTAIN_MIMIC, 22:23:41 floor tile mimics 22:26:11 Nah. 22:26:40 excellent 22:27:07 due: floor tile mimics, that can only be created by xom? 22:27:20 otherwise, I'm totally going to make floor tile mimics myself and put them in my vaults 22:27:25 floor tile mimics, also known as trapdoor spiders 22:27:56 permanently invisible trapdoor spiders 22:28:00 ew 22:28:10 interface-based difficulty is bad 22:28:59 just because I support an idea does not mean it is a good idea. I realize this is a bad idea, though it is a hilarious one, and the latter is the reason I support it 22:29:46 floor tile mimics should have the beta26 red wasp melee attack 22:29:54 for the old Angband feel 22:30:02 what's that D: 22:30:26 -!- blackpenguin has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:30:32 permanent paralysis 22:31:03 instadeath? 22:34:15 so apparently it took the angband guys nine years to relicense it. hope crawl can do better than that 22:36:28 -!- TGWi has joined ##crawl-dev 22:36:42 is anyone attached to the current corrosion resistance formula? 22:36:55 Wensley: i doubt it 22:36:58 we ca ntry, though 22:37:03 I think corrosion should use the same one as ammo mulching 22:37:30 ?mulch 22:37:33 ??mulch 22:37:33 mulching[1/4]: In 0.4.x, the chance of breakage is 1/X. X is: 1 for flame or frost brands. 3 for curare, darts. 4 for stones, arrows, bolts. 6 for poison needles. 10 for javelins. 25 for large rocks. Throwing nets only take damage when struggled against and are destroyed at -8. Other thrown things such as hand axes aren't technically missiles, and won't break. 22:37:44 apparently it's 6% at +1 (which is pretty much entirely meaningless) and full at +5 (which is undocumented and strange) 22:37:56 and nearly full at +4, which makes +5 not that important 22:38:29 ??mulch[2] 22:38:30 I don't have a page labeled mulch[2] in my learndb. 22:38:37 ??mulching[2] 22:38:37 mulching[2/4]: In 0.5.0, enchanted projectiles get an extra shot at avoiding destruction: enchantment / (1 + enchantment) chance of survival. For example: +1 means 1/2, +2 means 2/3, +9 means 9/10. 22:38:38 I think corrosion resistance should be enchantment/5 22:38:58 that would also be an improvement, yeah 22:39:02 so still full at +5 and a much more sensible progression 22:39:31 ooh it kinda works 22:39:33 ??corrosion 22:39:33 acid[1/3]: Acidic attacks and defenses come from many Js, plus spiny worms, yellow draconians, and oklob plants. In addition to damaging you, they reduce the +s of weapons (to-dam only) and armour. Items are immune if the relevant plus is +5 or better, or if the item is an artefact. +4 or dwarven is good enough outside Slime. See also {resist corrosion}. 22:39:47 ??resist corrosion 22:39:47 resist corrosion[1/2]: Provides a 90% save against equipment damage from {acid}, and halves damage (rA+). Available as an amulet or in cloaks of preservation. This is not enough to save your equipment in Slime, but you'll want it anyway for your HP. To protect your HP, a {cloak} helps a lot, even if it sucks. 22:40:29 Wensley: it's like 6%, 18%, idk, 98%, full 22:40:36 which is absurd 22:40:57 just curious if this would make items that can't be highly enchanted more or less likely to corrode 22:41:29 tgwi: yes, I actually assumed it was the arithmetic progression I suggested for quite a while 22:41:39 just because crawl is usually more sensible about such things 22:41:48 crawl doesn't use sensible formulas 22:41:52 what are you talking about 22:42:31 wensley: yeah, my suggestion might make +2 items less likely to corrode I guess 22:43:10 what is 'p' supposed to be used for? 22:43:25 all the prayer abilities got moved off it, and now I'm reading it's not for sacrifices either? 22:43:37 ??acid[2] 22:43:37 acid[2/3]: If an item is not immune: having resist corrosion saves the item 9 times out of 10. Failing that, dwarven items and crystal plate mail save 4 times out of 5. Failing that, the item's plus (from 0 to 4, positive or negative) will cause it to save 6%, 18%, 34%, 58%, or 98% of the time. 22:43:55 oh, +2 is currently 34% 22:44:00 so 40% wouldn't be a huge change 22:44:34 elliptic: according to the wiki (lol) it's 6%, 18%, 34%, 58%, 98% and you're suggesting a move to 0%, 20%, 40%, 60%, 80%, which is nearly the same except for items at +4 22:44:38 also I didn't realize you got a chance to resist at +0 but I guess that makes sense 22:45:00 wensley: see the acid[2] entry I just called up, wiki is actually right! 22:45:08 oh hey! 22:45:10 yeah I thought 6% was at 1, not 0 22:45:17 but yeah, not a huge change, just makes the numbers more sensible 22:45:30 true 22:47:23 curious though, how often does corrosion get invoked against items? clearly it's not every hit 22:47:38 once in a while 22:48:00 -!- blackpenguin has joined ##crawl-dev 22:48:15 20% of the time? 22:55:55 my mimics are randomly coloured 23:06:58 I"M BEING CHASED BY A DOOR 23:07:00 OMG I LOVE IT. 23:07:10 that just makes my day 23:07:17 hahaha 23:07:49 I can't sto plaughing. 23:08:11 "You open the door like a pillowcase!!!" 23:08:14 :) 23:08:18 I'm going to have to special-case all of these messages. 23:08:29 "It is as large as a rat" -> "It is as large as a door". 23:08:29 that is so cool 23:08:37 "You open the ddoor like a door!!!" 23:08:54 the door is as large as a rat? 23:09:02 I haven't adjusted the mimic sizes yet. 23:09:05 it's a rat door 23:09:06 heh 23:10:16 when is a door not a door? when it's a mimic. 23:10:37 -!- stabwound has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:12:10 "The door closes on you!" 23:12:35 You thought the door was ajar, but it's actually a mimic! 23:13:24 -!- UbAh has joined ##crawl-dev 23:13:29 due: please, please don't remove "You open the door like a pillowcase" 23:14:08 fighting mimic doors suddenly reminds me of KoL 23:14:32 UbAh: you had a question? :P 23:14:40 yes 23:14:49 fire away :) 23:15:04 I am trying to install 7.1 from source on vector linux 23:15:11 its a slackware variant 23:15:25 *0.7.1 23:15:35 * due goes out. 23:15:56 am running with TILES=y 23:16:19 it dumps out on the libSDL_image 23:16:23 contrib/install/lib/libSDL_image.a(IMG_png.o): In function `IMG_InitPNG': 23:16:23 IMG_png.c:(.text+0x16): undefined reference to `png_create_info_struct' 23:16:35 a bunch more of those undefined errors 23:16:56 I'm not familiar with the crawl linux versions, there isn't a precompiled version that's compatible with your system, then? 23:17:12 I tried to get a new version of the libSDL but the make file still looks in contrib 23:17:24 no precompiled for anything linux 23:17:38 I had been rinning crawl 6 23:17:42 wanted to upgrade 23:18:13 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 23:18:50 at least no precompilled that is linked to the main site I dont know of anywhere to get an up to date package 23:19:31 does the non-tiles build work? 23:19:57 that sounds like a library flag is missing somewhere 23:20:14 yea I am not the best at debugging make files 23:20:49 trying non tiles now, I'll let you know how it goes 23:21:17 but that SDL is a grapgical lib so I am guessing its only gonna fail on the tile install 23:22:10 libpng 23:22:31 Note that the graphical build requires that you have development libraries installed for SDL, SDL_image, libpng, zlib, and freetype. 23:22:39 ^ from INSTALL.txt 23:22:59 I installed the library but it still looks in the contrib path 23:23:17 I grabbed the with deps tar.gz 23:23:26 and ran make in the contrib dir 23:23:44 well, your compiler should have a set of paths to find the libraries on 23:23:58 i don't think crawl includes libpng in the contrib folder 23:24:00 as the next paragraph in the INSTALL.txt file directs me to\ 23:25:08 -!- TGWi has left ##crawl-dev 23:25:25 ah 23:25:37 I have libpng installed at version 1.2.37 23:29:05 as expected non tiels builds fine 23:30:45 hm, i am having errors with pulling 23:31:01 sourceforge-- 23:31:28 it was "couldn't get refs/head/holyhaul/" or something 23:32:13 now for the massive recheckout :P 23:32:26 oh *wow* 23:32:42 our makefile determines what contribs need to be built by probing uname 23:32:46 think I figured it out 23:32:50 I'll let you know 23:32:58 < hates hacking makefiles 23:33:04 elly: if you need an emetic, read previous line 23:33:45 haha 23:35:43 not sure which file I should link to 23:35:45 /usr/lib/libSDL_image-1.2.so.0.8.2 23:35:45 /usr/lib/libSDL_image.la 23:35:45 /usr/lib/libSDL_image.so 23:35:45 /usr/lib/libSDL_image-1.2.so.0 23:36:05 original file is /usr/lib/libSDL_image-1.2.so.0.8.2 23:36:05 /usr/lib/libSDL_image.la 23:36:05 /usr/lib/libSDL_image.so 23:36:05 /usr/lib/libSDL_image-1.2.so.0 23:36:11 oops 23:36:24 libSDL_image is not libpng. 23:36:29 ment orig file is libSDL_image.a 23:36:33 a flag -lSDL_image doesn't work by itself? 23:37:00 not sure what would the syntax look like? 23:37:21 oh, probably building from the makefile 23:37:36 yes 23:37:44 so i was going to try editing the makefile 23:37:52 unless you have a make option I could use 23:38:29 you are right sorear, I have the lib though 23:39:19 gonna try .so 23:39:38 hate to brute force it with random file picks cuz the make takes a long time 23:40:58 missed what you said about probing uname sorear 23:41:13 damage the makefile so that it forgets how to do full rebuilds 23:41:24 what is it looking for in particular? 23:41:26 makefiles are always loathsome 23:41:32 yes 23:41:46 you're probably better off building Crawl manually 23:42:09 someone should write makefile.kiss 23:42:10 would love a full binary with libraries included but it seams to be out of favor 23:42:20 well, i can't build contrib/ 23:42:21 include/SDL_syswm.h:58:22: error: X11/Xlib.h: No such file or directory 23:42:42 What OS? 23:42:46 never built anything manually most experience I have is using make to compile 23:42:56 vector 23:43:08 its a slackware variant using KDE 23:43:26 and a few other tweeks but mostly just slack 23:44:00 I was asking Zannick sorry 23:44:11 I know you're on Unix UbAh 23:44:14 been stable I had one for 3 years and i just upgraded it cuz I couldn't build 7.0 on the old version (same error) I thought I was just running to old 23:44:23 sry sorear 23:44:40 this would all just work if we were using autotools *ducks* 23:45:00 debian 23:45:07 < is an admin not a coder so talk to me like I am slow 23:45:23 UbAh: autotools = ./configure 23:45:30 oh well I dont really want or have time to learn another OS 23:45:40 I like configure scripts 23:45:46 Uhm? Autotools isn't an OS 23:45:59 crap 23:46:02 I though you said debian 23:46:21 no, the machine i was building on is debian :) 23:46:24 as in autotools on debian I missed it was zannick who spoke 23:46:33 Zannick: you'll need libx11-dev 23:46:40 to build SDL 23:46:41 sorear: probably 23:46:53 i'm not terribly worried as i won't be running tiles on that machine anytime soon 23:47:13 mostly because it's not mine and halfway across the country :) 23:49:47 I would just suck it up and play curses but I got used to tiles and I love to have my drink while I play 23:50:09 so I get confused enough without needing to remember the crawl char set 23:51:58 ok so I comment out the one with contrib/install/lib/libSDL_image.a and put in my path but it still is looking for contrib/install/lib/libSDL_image.a 23:52:21 so now I just feel stupid and that I am misreading the makefile 23:53:25 grep libSDL_image.a ./makefile 23:53:25 # LIBSDLIMAGE := contrib/install/lib/libSDL_image.a 23:53:45 commented out alright so it must be another file called... 23:54:38 at this rate it may be easier for me to go back to 5.0 and forget there is all this cool new stuff 23:56:46 I thought it was even worse pre-neunon, personally 23:57:23 pre-neunon? 23:57:57 shows how addictive this game is I have been spending hours to get the new version to work 23:58:19 -!- upsy has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:58:24 even did a new system install (probably should have done it anyway but this was the catalyst) 23:58:40 UbAh: neunon made the current makefile, the one you're fighting 23:59:11 well it worked on my system so thats all it took to make me happy