00:07:51 -!- BizarroPacra has joined ##crawl-dev 00:07:58 -!- Pacra has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:17:14 Okay... 00:17:22 Re-hacked passing through the portals. 00:42:27 -!- bmh has joined ##crawl-dev 00:42:58 -!- BizarroPacra is now known as Pacra 01:22:15 -!- elliptic has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:22:21 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 01:24:45 Why does it sometimes report DNGN_FLOOR_MIN instead of the actual feature? 01:24:47 I'm confused. 01:29:36 oh, someone is awake 01:32:10 Yup. 01:32:34 * bmh ought to write some comments on the wiki 01:36:47 03due * r84b8798b1408 10/crawl-ref/source/ (mon-place.cc mon-util.cc): Properly fix Malign Gateway monster interaction. 01:36:53 03due * rae4459180a03 10/crawl-ref/source/ (9 files in 4 dirs): Re-hack Malign Gateway slightly. 01:39:43 which reminds me to compile tiles and see how it turns out 01:41:48 -!- gamefreak264 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:43:25 -!- monky has quit [Quit: what] 01:50:46 -!- gamefreak264 has joined ##crawl-dev 01:59:26 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 02:01:58 Oh, hey, tentacle segments are fucked and need to be done for 0.8 tiles. 02:03:04 03due * r8cbe5b1cbd5d 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/portals/trove.des: Fix missing rename for Snakebite. 02:05:13 due: Thank you 02:05:30 hm? 02:05:51 due: what's the status of malign gateway? (I am really excited for this spell in case you cannot tell) 02:06:06 Slightly more functional now. 02:06:25 due: thanks re: snakebite 02:06:29 oh, you're welcome 02:06:36 Wensley: considerably more functional 02:07:19 Wensley: they now turn hostileimmediately when the portal closes. 02:07:30 do they writhe on the ground? 02:07:37 yes 02:07:41 eeeee 02:07:54 do they spew purple blood from their severed tentacle stump? 02:08:00 yes 02:08:05 eeeeeee 02:08:15 this is nothing new, haha 02:08:49 :P I haven't tried it out yet, I am too busy being unemployed to play games! 02:09:08 >:| srs face 02:09:25 due: with regards to the Crawl re-licensing, is it ok to start shoving in GPL'd code? 02:09:53 there's already GPL'd code in Crawl 02:10:01 that answers that. 02:10:06 I'd avoid it if possible 02:10:23 sorear: In general, or for now? 02:10:26 did people settle on the choice of new license for crawl? 02:10:39 Both 02:11:03 (the main reason we want to relicense Crawl is because the current soup of incompatible licenses makes it technically illegal to distribute. Nobody has sued yet though.) 02:11:38 (Thankfully) 02:11:48 what's the rationale for avoiding GPL'd code once the licensing issues are resolved? 02:11:49 Wensley: let's not talk about that just yet. 02:11:59 :P 02:12:06 who would be eligible to be sued, anyhow? 02:12:50 I mean, I'd hate for CAO or CDO to get an injunction or anything, but I'm just curious who's legally liable for crawl's development/distribution 02:13:09 IANAL. 02:13:38 CAO and CDO are a legal grey area, because copyright law covers copying and CAO doesn't make copies of Crawl and distribute them 02:13:38 !wtf ianal 02:13:38 Unemployed Unperson 02:13:52 IANAL = I am not a lawyer 02:14:01 I anal, though. 02:14:05 It's fun. 02:14:24 this is most commonly talked about in the context of web services 02:15:50 03due * rae39d9f2ddc3 10/crawl-ref/source/monster.cc: Severed tentacles become hostile regardless. 02:16:27 right, interesting, I hadn't considered that copyright law might not apply to hosting an online service 02:16:42 Wensley: CAO is probably not eligible because it doesn't copy stuff. Sourceforge is not eligible because of the DMCA safe harbor. That leaves us. 02:17:04 "us" as in CDO, you mean? 02:17:56 I like kittens, who else likes kittens? 02:18:14 http://kapachino.info/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/cute-kitten-knitted-sweater.jpg 02:23:51 I think kittens should be to xom what daevas are to tso 02:24:08 kittens are capricious, xom should adore them 02:24:09 I'm going to channel dpeg and say "no" 02:24:36 then I'm going to start my own fork of crawl, and the only difference will be that my fork has kittens 02:24:49 It's called NetHack 02:25:04 srsly kittens in nethack? 02:25:34 yes. 02:26:09 yes 02:26:10 ugh, never mind then 02:26:37 It also has Nurses. You should avoid going to a hospital any time soon. 02:32:04 I'm going to make the tentacles eat corpses. 02:32:08 I think. 02:32:10 :-D 02:35:03 how would they eat? do they have mouths? 02:35:18 Wensley: Us as in me and everyone else with a + or @ in the channel 02:37:39 sorear, due: I was talking with kilobyte about rewriting the abyss to be cooler -- do either of you have ideas for it? 02:37:41 * due back in an age. 02:37:51 bmh: abyss-only super monsters. 02:37:55 My plan was to use a turbulent perlin noise basis for the layout 02:37:56 Eldritch, love-craftian-esque. 02:38:00 Oh. 02:38:05 You don't mean flavour? That's cool. 02:38:08 Anyway, time for me to go, bye. 02:38:11 oh, flavour is great too 02:38:24 bmh: are you crazy? abyss is the single coolest level in Crawl, and one of the top10 levels in any game 02:41:27 sorear: I really hate the 'popping' effect 02:42:35 you mean the one where being cast into the Abyss from Pan pops LEVEL_PANDEMONIUM off the level_type stack? I hate that tooo 02:42:58 no, I mean the "You're wandering around the Abyss and all of a sudden you're in a very different Abyss" 02:43:12 I believe that the abyss should seethe and roil. 02:44:44 I love Monkey's suggestion that non-Abyss monsters should occasionally poof into existence in the abyss 02:45:12 I love the discontinuity 02:45:25 anything that makes the abyss more confusing and disorienting is fine by me 02:45:49 I like the idea of a plane of eldritch horrors populated by banished creatures 02:45:57 sorear: That's easy to do too -- just crank up the z-translation speed. 02:46:12 If we used coherent noise we could flip between seething walls and sudden popping 02:46:37 noise could also be useful to make slime cooler/deadlier 02:48:08 -!- Galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 02:48:20 hi 02:49:26 mornin 03:12:25 sorear: there's not a line of GPLed code. All that causes problems is BSDish, which is illegal only if you carefully read the license. 03:12:57 and I think the only such pieces are Mersenne's Twister (included in the code) 03:13:14 and Bitstream Vera (merely shipped together -- but needed by tiles to run) 03:13:37 that is, as long as we don't distribute contribs -- and we do 03:14:10 all of current contribs are under "suicidal" licenses that go away the moment you compile, so binaries are ok 03:15:34 kilobyte: 'eh? How can BSD code cause any problems? In short the BSD license says "Do what you want with this. Don't sue us if your head explodes. Don't remove this notice." 03:16:58 the problem is in "Don't remove this notice." 03:17:36 the old Bison license Crawl uses makes it illegal to have code under any other license anywhere in the package you distribute 03:17:43 GPL requires merely compatible terms 03:18:58 LGPL code is presumably safe for inclusion 03:20:23 as a contrib that is compiled in but not distributed in source form together with Crawl, yeah 03:21:29 it might be argued that the -contribs tarball consists of "separate" parts, which would be bending the rules but not by that much 03:21:46 kilobyte: perhaps we differ in our understanding of the LGPL, but I don't see what issue arises. 03:22:01 In particular, I'm looking at libnoise (http://libnoise.sourceforge.net/) 03:23:37 having it used but shipped separately is 100% safe 03:23:54 shipping it as a separate directory in a -contribs tarball arguable 03:24:00 LGPL != GPL 03:24:35 yeah, GPL would be flat out a violation since you can't compile GPLed and incompatible code together 03:25:09 As long as we don't strip out the comments, I don't see the issue of shipping it together. It's fine to be cautious, but I don't see a tangible risk 03:25:13 I'm talking about including LGPLed source inside Crawl proper rather than as a separate library 03:25:26 that's what the contribs dir is for 03:25:52 ah-ha, sorry for the confusion 03:26:57 I would never have looked for anything like libnoise 03:27:31 sorear: I'm an amateur procedural generation junkie. 03:28:10 I highly recommend the Ebert, Musgrave, Perlin, etc. book 03:29:14 I implemented perlin from merely the description so you can have it under any license you wish, but I guess this libnoise is far more optimized. 03:30:06 Debian ships libnoise already, too 03:30:06 I beleive there is such a thing as an algorithm too simple to bother looking for a reusable implementation 03:30:14 some people think I'm crazy for this 03:30:23 hmm yeah 03:30:45 'eh... 03:30:52 they might be using that insane way of generating an actual array of random data as in Ken Perlin's papers 03:30:55 google + writing glue code *scales* coding + maintaince 03:31:08 instead of using a hash of the coords 03:31:24 sorear: there's a 'no' missing somewhere in that sentence? 03:31:24 Crawl already includes a copy of SHA-2 03:31:30 what for? 03:31:38 bmh: the RNG 03:31:42 there's at least one other paper that shows that perlin's choice of hash function is bad an leads to correlations 03:31:46 sorear: I thought the RNG uses MT 03:32:09 yes, it uses MT with a SHA-256 postprocess over every 16 bytes of output 03:32:50 you want a cryptographically secure bit-stream? 03:32:59 it might be simplier to use a cryptography-grade prng outright 03:33:16 and certainly faster 03:33:25 we're playing a Roguelike, not hacking the Gibson. 03:33:39 (ADOM uses RC4 fed with zeros. Angband uses an lagged fibbonacci generator with infamously bad parameters. NetHack uses rand(3).) 03:34:25 I'm not concerned with players attempting to guess the RNG state. 03:34:33 bmh: there have been real-prizes Crawl tournaments 03:34:46 someone already demonstrated a practical attack against CAO 03:34:49 sorear: cripes, I should slip in some cheat codes 03:35:01 and what kilobyte said 03:35:10 -!- casmith789 has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:35:14 full knowledge about the game, ability to manipulate future so you never die, etc 03:35:58 I wasn't there for the CAO version; was it as epic as the NAO "I think I'll get 42 wishes from fountain quaffing in a row" moment? 03:36:05 if a next roll would make a monster hit you or generate a non-über randart, you make some unrelated step and have another roll 03:38:03 there are some reasonable stream ciphers we could use 03:38:08 heh, I haven't seen the details, IIRC the demonstraction showed merely that "the next turn a kobold will enter from that direction, and in the fight it would hit, miss, hit me. But I can step here instead and kill it without taking a scratch." or something 03:38:21 s/seen/remember/ 03:38:40 I doubt that RNG performance is a bottleneck for us. 03:39:25 do you know the story if this player: http://alt.org/nethack/player-all.php?player=WowDeath 03:39:42 ! 03:39:58 Galehar: I do, and I know the person who did it 03:40:15 he's clever :) 03:40:19 bmh: it's about 10% of runtime as of the last time a profile was done 03:40:25 running perling with its 64+ rng calls per square (5600 squares per map, possibly one generation per turn in the Abyss) would really tax it 03:40:48 or a "random neighbour voting" algorithm I considered 03:41:00 eh? it would just use a hash 03:41:23 sorear: on CDO, right? It's orders of magnitude worse than compiled without SHA. 03:41:54 kilobyte: wasn't it you who ran the profile? 03:41:57 sorear: whoa. Let's get a better RNG 03:42:41 Galehar: pre 2007, nethack.alt.org was using srand(time(NULL)). sartak decided to do a little search for those seconds when a game could be started and D:1 would have a wand of wishing 03:42:56 !lg * 2 03:42:56 2. Testing the Shield-Bearer (L1 HuFi), got out of the dungeon alive on 2006-12-02, with 256 points after 45 turns and 0:00:16. 03:42:58 !lg * 3 03:42:59 3. Eidolos the Stinger (L4 HuVM), slain by a gnoll on D:1 on 2006-12-02, with 116 points after 1310 turns and 0:07:07. 03:43:06 same guy 03:43:14 sorear: I ran lots of profiles just before 0.7 release and plugged some of the worst offenders, but rng wasn't one of them 03:43:53 Galehar: paxed then changed the version of nethack on the server to use srand(time(NULL) ^ getpid()) 03:44:42 Galehar: a couple years later, Adeon demonstrated the feasability of a brute force search for the original seed with his fountain exploit; NetHack was then hastily patched to use a crypto PRNG and /dev/random seeding 03:45:19 given that this is a game that was last significantly updated in the 90s *ducks* modern computers can run even the patched version without strain 03:45:23 so, who said nethack isn't updated anymore? :) 03:45:52 Pasi Kallinen is the de facto maintainer of NH these days :( 03:46:20 We can probably get better RNG performance by switching to an alternating generator or a shrinking generator 03:48:39 03:43 <+kilobyte> sorear: I ran lots of profiles just before 0.7 release and plugged some of the worst offenders, but rng wasn't one of them 03:48:58 what is the worst offender? 03:49:21 monster AI 03:51:03 god granted abilities are so scattered over the source 03:51:45 paxed is the maintainer of NAO. this unfortunately includes patches to nethack as the original DevTeam isn't very responsive 03:52:26 maybe they died of old age... 03:52:36 at least one of them did 03:52:37 bmh: actually, clearing the LOS cache every time an opaque cloud moved 03:52:38 not all of them 03:53:46 with some strange details like clearing the "monster was hibernated this turn" marker taking over a percent 03:54:34 it might be good to know something about what wastes CPU during the actual play 03:55:49 my profiling was solely for resting on Sprint:Mu3 (since it took ~two orders of magnitude more CPU than a regular game) 03:57:45 it might be interesting to run a kernel statistical profiler on cao/cdo 03:58:08 something that saves %rip on every scheduler entry... it has to exist 03:59:57 I can't see to find where piety gets subtracted for Lugonu powers 04:00:23 pay_ability_costs 04:00:42 one of the integers in the big table in abl-show.cc is baseline piety cost 04:00:57 that gets randomly fudged and deducted when you use anything on the 'a' menu 04:01:28 got it. 04:02:54 incidentally, baseline does not mean average 04:03:05 it's used in an Nd2 like calculation 04:03:30 sorear: saving the IP can be done as well from the userspace on a signal -- do you know of something about it that kernel would do better? 04:04:25 ie, passive profiling (as opposed to active one gprof does that slows the program by a large factor) 04:04:33 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 04:05:16 -!- Twilight-1 has quit [Read error: No route to host] 04:05:41 kilobyte: adding the setitimer calls would require modifying Crawl, also SIGVTALRM delivery = 2 context switches, sigreturn(2) = 2 more 04:05:53 -!- Guest35129 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:06:07 -!- Twilight has joined ##crawl-dev 04:06:12 * sorear STR oprofile being something like this 04:06:16 -!- Twilight-1 has joined ##crawl-dev 04:06:33 -!- Twilight is now known as Guest69616 04:06:50 we don't need millions of samples per second, 100 would be more than enough, I think 04:08:31 -!- gamefreak264 has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:08:59 but then, I never used kernel profiling while I have memories of using passive profiling on DOS on mighty machines like IBM XT 04:09:28 is Ashenzari's piety-for-exploration code implemented? 04:10:32 bmh: partially. dpeg raised a whole new proposal (which I have doubts of) and the issue of open levels giving lots of piety while mazes give little (which is certainly bad) 04:11:14 so I'd at least count open squares on map generation and give piety for a proportion of the level explored 04:11:16 kilobyte: Passively profiling fifty processes at the same time which are started from exec calls in dgamelaunch sounds like a pain 04:11:33 If setting up oprofile is an even bigger pain, forget I said anything 04:11:37 kilobyte: I think that's a sound solution 04:12:19 we could even get a little more clever and weight a square in inverse proportion to the neighboring open space 04:13:10 sorear: I simply never used it, so I have no clue about that 04:13:49 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 04:13:59 hey eith 04:14:13 morning 04:14:46 bmh: the current code counts seen walls while the original proposal included only floor; that hurted twisted little passages even more. Your idea would balance that even more, so it seems good to me. 04:15:53 I'm not sure what the formula ought to be, but for starters we could say that a square with eight open neighbors is worth 1 aue (arbitrary unit of exploration) ;-) 04:16:40 perhaps the exploration piety eligible to be awarded for each level could be dependent on the quantity of visible walls on that level. it's not perfect, but it's easy 04:17:27 I don't know that we need that level of granularity. What are we trying to get the player to do? 04:19:23 I guess dpeg's notion of giving the same piety for exploring any level would be both simple and good. 04:19:31 don't most players fully explore every level anyway before going on to the next one (hells excluded)? I always figured the idea was to reward people for doing something they were already encouraged to do 04:20:01 Wensley: The idea is to prevent people from sitting in one place stair dancing until penance wears off 04:20:16 and to have a metric for judging progress through the dungeon 04:20:19 penance? 04:20:25 the part I do disagree with is giving everything upon exploring 50% of the level 04:20:52 Wensley: Abandon Okawaru sometime, he doesn't like abandonment :-) 04:21:12 kilobyte: I agree with your disagreement. I could speedrun a lot of levels to 50% 04:21:28 bmh: I have no idea what's going on between us right now :) 04:22:08 I'd give C points divided by the number of total explorable squares on the level for any square seen 04:22:41 so you get C points per level if you explore it fully, proportionally less if not 04:23:11 I would give some bonus for full (or near full) exploration 04:23:32 no matter if it's an all-open level with a few pools, several disconnected bubbles or a twisty maze 04:23:59 bmh: so you would go contrary to that proposal of dpeg which rewards superficial exploration 04:24:37 kilobyte: definitely. I would add surplus exploration points for full exploration and for branch ends 04:26:28 suppose that each level is worth C points. Exploring 98% of the level might give you (0.9 * C). A branch end might be worth (1.1 * C) points. 04:26:46 I'd also add a piety bonus for exploring secret rooms 04:27:04 Wensley: That's what I'm trying to capture in the formula :-) 04:28:42 bmh: dpeg suggested giving a bonus for finding a rune, which I already implemented 04:29:06 what about portal vaults? 04:29:10 kilobyte: Don't forget about Elf and to a lesser extent Orc 04:30:12 Wensley: with the proportional runes, they would count as a whole level, no matter if it's a 15 square trove 04:31:06 s/runes/rules/, doh! 04:31:17 I return 04:31:21 mmm that was enjoyable 04:31:33 what about ashenzari piety in sprint? :P 04:32:08 Okay, I'm going to buff demonic tentacles now. 04:32:17 Do we think 150 HP is a bit much per segment? 04:32:37 Wensley: that's simple: the multiplier needs to be bigger than x9, but that's all 04:32:54 due: does destroying a segment sever the tentacle? 04:32:54 Have you considered a power law? 04:33:08 Wensley: I'm not sure, actually. 04:33:19 points = C * (%explored)^3, say 04:33:26 Okay, 83HP is reasonable. 04:34:16 13 AC, 16HD, roughly 83HP per segment. 04:35:00 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 04:35:13 hi all 04:36:00 hey dpeg 04:37:17 noob_napkin: Hey, you noob! 04:37:31 talk of the wolf... dpeg: could you please read the last page of http://tozt.net/crawl/%23%23crawl-dev-20101008.log ? 04:37:46 -!- dpeg is now known as dsheepeg 04:38:00 -!- due is now known as undue 04:38:11 ha! 04:38:38 hey dpeg 04:39:20 kilobyte: I don't want open levels to give more piety than cramped ones! 04:39:27 * dsheepeg is all for egalit´e! 04:39:49 dsheepeg: all levels will be worth the same, except for possibly branch ends which may be worth more 04:40:16 or make it so that levels with more exposed walls are worth more :P 04:40:36 dsheepeg: I agree with the same total piety for any level 04:40:39 Wensley: why? Open floor plan levels can be more terrifying 04:40:41 Penalising hte player simply because they got a small levle enerator is a bad idea. 04:40:52 bmh: most branch ends are already worth more viz. the rune boost. 04:41:02 dsheepeg: Elf? 04:41:09 bmh: well, not Elf :) 04:41:41 bmh: ash doesn't care if yaktaurs punch holes in you, she wants you to work for your knowledge 04:42:04 the issue is about giving all for 50%... I would somewhat prefer linear to the end, sorear just proposed (%explored)^3 which is the opposite of your suggestion: only 1/8 for the first half 04:42:08 does Ashz tell the player when you've cleared the layer? 04:42:10 kilobyte: the idea of being done with the level (piety wise) after 50%-66% exploration is not fixed ... we can use other numbers. 04:42:19 I just wanted to avoid full piety = 100% 04:42:24 kilobyte, sorear: I'm just making some graphs in R 04:42:37 bmh: this is not yet settled, I've asked kilobyte 04:42:40 kilobyte: what do you think? 04:43:16 bmh: you could speedrun a lot of levels to 50%, but would you do so in cursed gear? :) 04:43:41 dsheepeg: I've gotten Jiyva as a low level Spriggan. So, yes. 04:43:47 how does it interfere? 04:44:14 you just run around the level, skipping terrain near any hard enemies 04:44:36 in fact, cursed gear interferes _less_ since you don't have to actually fight 04:45:02 I see two competing, simple proposals both of which would work (I assume). There is also a more complicated proposal in the log but I am afraid of that. 04:45:19 For both, we know in advance that we want to hand out P piety points for the level, okay? 04:45:24 I'm sure there's a polynomial out there that will make us happy. 04:45:52 dsheepeg: yeah, there seem to be no discontent about that 04:46:16 I. We track honest exploration and award those P piety points linearly with exploration, with full P being given at some percentage. The latter should be somewhere between 50% and 100% and has to be discussed. 04:46:42 II. We place P (invisible) flags on the level and give a piety point each time the player gets into LOS of one. 04:46:58 Define honest exploration? 04:47:02 II sounds much simpler to me 04:47:08 undue: no digging up more open spaces 04:47:12 undue: no mapping 04:47:31 Okay, so each "explorable" square is flagged as such, and then you get piety based on the percentage that you've explored? 04:47:48 undue: yeah, to avoid digging and such 04:47:51 sorear: unfortunately, I only got the idea of II after kilobyte implemented most of what's needed for I. :O (But we will need I anyway for good gods and wraths, so no worries.) 04:48:03 I like I the most. 04:48:12 dsheepeg: Do we weight squares differently for placement? 04:48:13 Naturally =) 04:48:18 someone proposed making more piety for the last part of the level to reward finding msall secret rooms 04:48:21 bmh: no, I wouldn't. 04:48:30 I realized this using a power law, with gamma > 1 04:48:30 sorear: And this is what I want to avoid. 04:48:46 dsheepeg: I would. It seems to me that a square within LOS wof a rune should be more likely to contain a flag, if you want to go the flag route 04:48:57 It may be flavourful to ask players to explore that last hidden nook, but is it good? I doubt it. 04:49:06 It should be doable with 'o'. 04:49:14 bmh: we already have an explicit rune bonus. This point is settled. 04:49:31 undue: hidden vaults? Bubbles? 04:49:39 dsheepeg: actually, the variant I prefer is III: linear piety with exploration, divided by the number of explorable squares 04:49:56 Anyway, these questions only matter for I, and I can be convinced to go 100%. 04:49:56 ie, I with no cut-off 04:50:17 kilobyte: this would mean different piety for different levels? 04:50:31 no, the total is the same 04:50:58 kilobyte: wouldn't that be I with full piety at 100%? 04:51:16 a 15-room trove: you get full C/15 piety for each square. An open level: only C/5600 piety per square. 04:51:17 I am fine to try that. 04:51:42 kilobyte: well, the eventual piety gain will be the same, I think. 04:51:42 I'll have an image for you once I get ghostscript installed 04:51:46 if by "linearly" you meant "linearly to the percentage uncovered" then yeah 04:51:53 btw, portal vaults should get lower values of C 04:51:59 kilobyte: yes 04:52:13 bmh: how can you live without ghostscript? 04:52:28 dsheepeg: don't know. http://bhickey.net/explore.png 04:52:50 Isn't that a nice comforting polynomial? 04:53:16 actually, portals like Bailey or Spider could count more rather than less... it's just Trove and Bazaars which are trivial to explore, Baileys may be smaller but have their difficulty more condensed. 04:53:38 kilobyte: yes, each portal vault can have a line stating its C value. No big deal. 04:54:03 bmh: sure, but I think we're talking about so little values of C that linearly is good enough :) 04:56:21 kilobyte: also need a special rule for labyrinths. 04:56:56 dsheepeg: how about Abyss, Hells and Pan? 04:57:39 later 04:57:53 need to get the main dungeon straight first 04:58:21 One advantage of kilobyte's 100% is that we wouldn't need to announce anything. 04:58:32 the Abyss could be just straight linear. Pan consists of normal levels, it's just a question if C should be as big. 04:58:54 kilobyte: we should discuss the other questions first, otherwise: yes. 04:59:27 for Hells, dpeg proposed x2, I initially wanted x0 for H:1-6, so x1 could be a good first approximation 05:00:09 right... let's talk about normal levels then 05:00:20 next point: trees and deep water 05:00:27 don't count them. 05:00:39 -!- rkd has joined ##crawl-dev 05:00:43 so trees just like walls, makes sense 05:00:44 kilobyte: let's go with approach I and 100%, this is your III, right? 05:00:57 kilobyte: yes, trees like walls, water not as floor. 05:01:11 is a pedestrian deity. 05:01:23 There is the question about tides in Shoals. 05:01:26 so levitating over it gives no gain, m'kay 05:01:33 dsheepeg: earlier I had suggested making the value of a square be some inverse function to the number of its open-space space neighbors. 05:02:32 kilobyte: yes, otherwise we tell players to bore themselves by mapping out Shoals in full, for exampoe. 05:02:51 bmh: yes, but it is again complicated. I feel that we can achieve what we want with simple solutions. 05:02:52 I'm opposed to a linear piety gain scheme (20% exploration = 20% piety) because it rewards superficial exploration 05:03:01 superficial? 05:03:22 I think I have an answer: we already have to care for the initial status. So, any rock/water/tree/etc square not adjacent to floor/shallow would be marked as ineligible -- but only once, the moment the map is generated 05:04:06 yes, that also solves Shoals tides nicely 05:04:08 so, for Shoals, during high tide you would have to get the original land into LOS 05:04:13 dsheepeg: I wouldn't worry too much about complexity. Let's concern ourselves with the goals 05:04:17 yes, good idea 05:04:18 in absolute terms, how much piety is going to be awarded per floor? 05:04:22 I don't think the tide moves that much 05:04:52 bmh: complexity is problematic... if someone wants to improve Ashenzari in five years, they'll be happy if we spent the time to come up with a simple solution. 05:05:05 I see two conflicting proposals: dpeg giving all for superficial exploration, bmh giving almost none 05:05:06 Wensley: yesterday I coughed up 16 05:05:18 What do you folks mean by "superficial"? 05:05:38 But then I realised that Ash gives great piety boosts when cursed, so perhaps less than 16 will do. 05:05:39 dsheepeg: If you stair dive the dungeon, you shouldn't get much piety 05:05:54 how does that help any? 05:06:04 exploring the level is safer anyway 05:06:28 I am not convinced this is a problem, and I wouldn't want to come up with complicated patterns right now only because this _mgiht_ be a problem. 05:06:32 dsheepeg: is that number before or after decay? 05:06:37 kilobyte: before 05:07:05 kilobyte: I wrote to you that 14 fully explored levels are needed to get from 0 piety to ****** piety. 05:07:12 -!- Galehar has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:07:18 But this does not take into account cursedness multipliers. 05:07:39 how big are the multipliers? 05:07:46 piety decay rewards speedrunning then 05:07:50 bmh: I believe that Crawl is full of overly complex designs. Some of them probably my fault. Simple == good. 05:08:02 kilobyte: we're also free to discuss the decay parameter. 05:08:05 bmh: 2,4,6 05:08:08 right now 05:08:09 Considerably buffing Malign Gateway 05:08:11 bmh: x1 for no cursed, x2 for one type, x5, x6 05:08:22 the tentacles now have a lot more HP, and resistances, though are slower, but hit harder. 05:08:36 kilobyte: ah, thought you've seen that: Galehar made a good point that arithmetic progression is better, so 2, 4, 6 05:08:37 dsheepeg: 1,2,5,6 on wiki and in trunk -- should I change this? 05:08:42 ok 05:08:46 thank you 05:09:06 if we find this going out of hand, we can use 1,2,3,4 or something else 05:09:09 dsheepeg: speaking of which, I've mostly incorporated severity/tension into the master retribution function 05:09:16 But I believe it's good to start with strong boosts. 05:09:21 bmh: cool! 05:09:28 the bondage adjectives are "slightly", "seriously", "completely" 05:09:29 as players spend piety they incur a religious debt that will decay over time (this is why I started talking about exploration) 05:09:46 When you get excommunicated, you incur a debt for all the gifts you ever received 05:09:49 this may warrant changing the middle one 05:10:00 bmh: yes, wrath should never again decrease by waiting. Decrease by exploration is acceptable for some gods. 05:10:23 kilobyte: halfway? I never know :) 05:10:54 dsheepeg: debt is different than penance. Debt can decrease in two ways: 1) exploration while not wrathed, 2) piety gain, 3) getting wrathed 05:11:01 %s/two/three 05:11:10 WTH... the fallback one is, ironically, "boggily". Having the very word "bug" buggy is sick... 05:12:09 kilobyte: someone was humorous! 05:12:23 Hm 05:12:28 malign gateway v antaeus = not so good 05:12:35 bmh: this is a new concept, you've gotta explain (best on the wiki). 05:12:46 undue: kills him alone? 05:12:57 No, does absolutely no damage. 05:13:21 does it damage less formidable foes? 05:13:48 I'm not sure 05:13:55 It's the speed that's an issue at the minute. 05:14:13 Making it very slow was a bad idea, because the speed is basically halved with the tentacle-y ness 05:15:05 so make it faster again :) 05:15:07 Okay, making it speed 12 = good. 05:15:11 As opposed speed 18. 05:15:38 v cerebov = "lol" 05:16:25 Okay, I'm pretty happy with it. It's not overpowered. 05:16:34 Cool! 05:16:38 undue: should the tentacle recede when the player is not near? 05:16:41 03kilobyte * r5604d8ef611b 10/crawl-ref/source/godpassive.cc: Correct a bug in the word "bug". 05:16:42 03kilobyte * rc12db7c6561d 10/crawl-ref/source/godconduct.cc: Ashenzari piety mod for bondage: 1,2,5,6 -> 1,2,4,6 05:16:58 ... or maybe not. 05:17:04 Tentacle v orb of fire = whoa. 05:17:26 @??demonic tentacle 05:17:27 demonic tentacle (13w) | Speed: 18 | HD: 12 | Health: 39-58 | AC/EV: 5/7 | Damage: 29 | Flags: 05demonic, amphibious | Res: 13magic(immune), asphyx | XP: 1133. 05:17:30 undue: tentacle wins? 05:17:39 @??orb of fire 05:17:40 orb of fire (05*) | Speed: 20 | HD: 30 | Health: 150 | AC/EV: 20/20 | Flags: 11non-living, see invisible, lev, !sil | Res: 13magic(immune), 04hellfire+++, 02cold, 10elec++, 09poison+++ | XP: 11717 | Sp: b.fire (3d40), polymorph other, fireball (3d43). 05:17:44 a level 1e38 spell should have some effect on enemies 05:17:59 dsheepeg: But it takes a while. 05:18:07 undue: that's okay. 05:18:40 dsheepeg: About as many hits as crystal spear does. 05:18:49 now we just need a unique who casts malign gateway 05:19:01 It's not monster-castable... yet. 05:19:11 But that's simply because it hasn't been implemented. 05:19:21 kilobyte: agree with my 12:00 comment? 05:19:25 orbs of fire falling to level 3 old Tukima: bad. Orbs of fire falling to a few castings of firestorm: not so bad. 05:19:47 Orbs of fire fallign to nasty fucking tentacles FROM SPACE: not so bad. 05:21:03 dsheepeg: about no extra piety for merfolk in the Shoals? sounds good 05:21:36 I'm a bit afraid about us... all we talked about today is bondage and tentacles 05:21:37 kilobyte: no, about linear piety for exploration, with full piety given for 100%. This is your III and my I with 100% parameter. 05:21:55 kilobyte: that should be the new channel topic 05:22:44 -!- kilobyte changed the topic of ##crawl-dev to: Talk about bondage and tentacles! | Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki | Ashenzari source: http://github.com/doy/crawlbot | Long stuff to pastebin.ca please. 05:23:39 dsheepeg: wikified 05:23:58 hrm, need to save that data... reloading shouldn't change anything, even for the worse 05:24:48 bmh: thanks 05:25:02 https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:god:wrath#religious_debt_wrath_dynamics 05:26:14 "We should not try to increase severity for gifts a player has received; rather, we make severity decrease more slowly with such gods." 05:26:23 yes/no? 05:26:41 yeah 05:27:21 it'd be strange to have some gods have wrath that rises with time worshipped and some with constant one 05:27:54 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 05:27:56 bmh: my words :) 05:28:06 dsheepeg: praise be to dpeg? ;-) 05:28:16 ALL HAIL DPEG 05:28:19 most gifts are consumable somehow: be they actual gifts like Nemelex' or not counted as such like Makhleb's 05:28:22 Mu_: undue is doing the MG! 05:28:30 yes, Mu knows 05:28:34 -!- undue is now known as due 05:28:38 -!- dsheepeg is now known as dpeg 05:28:39 I hate being so long 05:29:01 ok, I'll change my implementation to take that into account. Each god can have a debt decay multiplier 05:29:24 * Mu_ massages due. 05:29:30 bmh: how is that different from the current variable penance length? 05:29:34 CanI just delete all th stupid waffle about it? 05:29:41 bmh: my point was to not take into account actual gifts... just have gifting gods be less amiable with wrath decay. 05:30:10 I feel like this is a bug: every turn, this trapdoor spider emerges from its hiding place and then hides under the floor again three times, creating a lot of message spam 05:30:13 kilobyte: one sec, peaking at the penance length implementation 05:30:42 lunchtime 05:30:53 Actually, I just deleted that entire block of wankery and will completely ignore it. 05:30:56 do you guys ever stop working with this game? ;) 05:31:23 rkd: I quit my job last month and moved to another country. This is more fun than working :) 05:31:29 =) 05:32:22 kilobyte: penance length and penance severity are orthogonal 05:33:27 Xom, Trog, Beogh, Sif, Lugonu, TSO: 50; Kiku, Yred, Ely, Jiyva, Fedhas: 30; Vehu, Makhleb, Zin, Cb: 25; Nemelex: special 05:33:45 that's no different from status quo 05:34:14 lengths are what I just mentioned, severity is currently constant 05:34:43 being milder for low xl in some cases 05:36:29 -!- elliptic has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:36:29 Mu_, dpeg, I've crossed off what I've done. 05:36:51 -!- casmith789 has joined ##crawl-dev 05:37:01 great work duey :) 05:37:29 (Haven't pushed it all yet though) 05:39:58 -!- eith has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:40:14 When it dies and the portal is open, it's "sucked through the portal". 05:40:26 Need to make it "almost destroyed", too, rather than dead. 05:40:28 thanks for cleaning up the page too :P 05:40:55 You're welcome. 05:41:02 I was a bit sick of having to scroll past all that waffle 05:41:11 Is it just me or does crawl accrue... text? 05:43:28 kilobyte: do you have a formula in mind for decay slowdown due to gifting? 05:49:27 Hm, it really should leave a massive corpse. 05:49:37 But that can be for later. 05:50:43 where is the list of features that aren't affected by blood? 05:53:49 bmh: do we need anything other than a formula that depends on the length of worship? That would solve frequent gifts vs rare gifts vs gifts that are temporary and don't count as such. 05:54:40 gods with gifts with residual use could simply have a bigger multiplier 05:54:50 kilobyte: That works. The only complexity I would layer on is stuff like asking for the Necronomicron, looting Slime:6 05:55:25 as in, a big one-time debt, right? 05:55:46 either that or a big multiplier push 05:57:48 even strictly permanent multiple gifts flatline after some time: with a good set Oka is unlikely to improve much, Sif's gifts become strictly useless once you have all spells 06:01:02 there's a worship time counter somewhere? 06:01:31 there's a warship one at least 06:01:45 FR: Warships. 06:03:35 bmh: we wanted pirate ships, but there's a ninja-lover around 06:04:18 -!- Wensley has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:04:49 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 06:05:53 hm 06:05:58 bumping malign up to 7 because now it's pretty buff 06:09:18 dpeg: what do we think of only one malign gateway at a time? 06:11:19 back 06:12:44 is it randomly placed? 06:13:54 due: yes, only one 06:14:13 I am still not sure whether we want the MG to function properly when the player abandons or hides. 06:15:16 well, limiting it to one is definitely a good plan 06:15:29 just trying to decide the quickest and sanest way to do it 06:17:43 due: a plain duration of X turns where you cannot cast the spell anymore? 06:20:31 or counting how many markers there are that are MAT_MALIgN. 06:20:52 due: need to think about player and monster casting MG at the same time... 06:21:09 that's an easy check 06:21:20 just compare caster with the stored caster 06:22:38 or they can pull another tentacle out of the _same_ portal :) 06:22:58 hah 06:23:02 doesn't fit the flayva! 06:23:06 due: no? ok 06:23:56 due: Do we store the length of time a player has been worshipping? 06:25:23 I've no idea. 06:25:30 I doubt it, check player.h? 06:27:16 !tell OG17 When two developers (keskitalo and I) tell you that summons fighting out of sight is not desirable, could you please stop telling us it is? Thanks. 06:27:16 dpeg: OK, I'll let OG17 know. 06:27:37 :)) 06:28:20 This is not funny! :) 06:30:26 bmh: if you want to add a new minor version tag, please tell me so, otherwise we'd step on each other's toes 06:31:19 I can push half-done level density, at least the part that deals with saves is done 06:31:50 kilobyte: can you stub out the exploration function so I can begin using it? 06:33:24 hrm -- what's the signature on it? Returns an int indicating how much exploration has been done since the last call? 06:33:38 or possibly turn 06:33:57 bmh: what range does severity have in your approach? Still that of piety? 06:34:36 dpeg: it isn't concrete yet 06:35:25 I can certainly peg it to a 0-200 scale 06:35:53 bmh: currently, there's a call without arguments done every time a new square gets explored; I indend to give it an argument which is the denominator 06:36:00 bmh: you want debt to keep track of all the things your god did for you? 06:36:19 but that's just std::max(env.density, SOME_SANE_MINIMUM) 06:36:25 dpeg: Yes. Every time you use an ability you incur debt 06:37:01 bmh: do you want some kind of a counter instead? 06:37:15 bmh: this is a good idea. It will make it much easier to insure that a late game abandonment is punished harder than an early game one (I don't like using XL in this regard btw). 06:37:31 kilobyte: give me two minutes to look at the source. 06:38:01 2nd radiant caverns vault completed :p reused the first vault for this one tho, but still one more vault is one more vault :p 06:38:06 it currently just calls did_god_conduct(DID_EXPLORATION, 1); 06:38:26 I'm going to be plugging my debt code into handle_god_time 06:38:58 unless there's a better home for it 06:40:07 due and Mu_ and caotto: the MG spell is so sexy! <3 06:40:16 \o/ 06:40:27 just tested it against a newt 06:40:30 the tentacle won! 06:42:06 go tentacle! 06:42:06 http://pastebin.com/5wsBwjtg 06:42:21 what is this demon tentacle thing? :P 06:43:23 rkd: can you compile? 06:43:47 can a pidgeon talk? : 06:43:48 ;D 06:43:52 kilobyte: I'm going to the museums. Please !message me and I'll get to it later today 06:44:20 no I can't compile dpeg ;P 06:44:32 rkd: dpeg is a bit big to compile. 06:45:41 bmh: there's still a question what interface would be most convenient for you 06:45:47 rkd: then you have to wait 06:46:03 no worries 06:46:32 kilobyte: Why don't you just call me? void reduce_debt(god_type god, int amount) 06:46:57 ack, that's no good, it doesn't incorporate penance properly 06:49:20 the only function I have is one that's called thousands of times per level -- once for every new square 06:49:42 so a typical turn of exploration often calls it 10+ times 06:49:57 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:50:13 yuck 06:50:16 sounds hhot 06:50:31 and now there's a denominator 06:50:38 gotta run 06:50:40 -!- bmh is now known as bmh_away 06:54:01 * due denominates everyone. 06:54:24 kilobyte: this is not good, sounds too expensive 06:54:27 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:56:15 a single tentacle is good (without any help but distraction) for bringing down two draconians 06:58:22 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 06:58:25 dpeg: That's the old super-fast but weak tentacles too 06:58:38 ok 06:58:44 They seemed a bit weak, yes. 06:58:45 dpeg: there's a cap of 5600 calls per level, it's nothing compared to most of Crawl's code 06:58:49 Would often die in the process. 06:58:57 kilobyte: alright, if you say so. 06:59:15 they get killed by bees a lot, the current weak tentacles :P 07:00:11 two observations: all the smoke makes it rather hard to actually see the portal 07:00:56 and the time between casting and tentacle appearance makes it ideal for running away and waiting for the kills 07:01:26 The latter will be better once the portal can only be called in the open: if you run away, the monsters will follow and there'll be noone left for the tentacle to attack. 07:01:32 yeah there's a lot of smoke atm 07:01:37 I shall tone the smoke down 07:01:43 and it lasts a long time too 07:01:51 the smoke is cool, we just can't see anything through the fog :) 07:02:38 :) 07:13:12 Misuse of word: poison (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2692) by nerdbeard 07:14:50 No, because people would then just get confused. 07:16:23 people would learn proper English 07:16:47 due: you are in the devteam, now is the time to comment over there 07:16:54 I just said "yes" :) 07:18:32 proper English? is there already a bug for that in mantis? 07:20:49 how is a killer bee poisonous? 07:21:05 -!- bmh has joined ##crawl-dev 07:21:05 -!- bmh has quit [Changing host] 07:21:05 -!- bmh has joined ##crawl-dev 07:21:39 bhaak: we got what he meant! 07:22:59 Kilobyte: you could put the exploration gain in a buffer that gets cleared when you ask for the contents 07:23:11 due: very stylish comment :) 07:23:16 This strikes me as a little "meh" 07:23:23 dpeg: in general, me, too. But how can a killer bee be poisonous and venomous at the same time? 07:23:46 the bee might not be a good example, but I'd think there are things out there which are both 07:24:45 bmh: I wonder how to represent that, since the denominator might have changed in meantime. A float? An int with, say, 1000 points per level? 07:24:45 Crawl doesn't have the platypus! 07:25:00 nethack has a patch for that :) 07:25:19 dpeg: hmm, yes, for other animals I see it, too 07:25:43 s/see/think it should exist but can't think of an example right now/ 07:25:50 Hm, the rest can wait until tomorrow. 07:26:07 Kilobyte: let's go with an int. I don't see an advantage to float muckymuck 07:26:09 neither Zaba nor Pacra are writing :( 07:26:10 03due * r8568daa67bbc 10/crawl-ref/source/ (12 files in 2 dirs): Flavour, functionality, tentacle buff for Malign Gateway. 07:26:12 floatywoaty 07:26:17 bye due 07:26:19 hot stuff! 07:26:41 If you abandon your god, does your exploration pool empty? 07:26:48 still here 07:27:00 but only for seconds 07:27:09 going to have to add a new field to the malign gateway marker 07:27:22 due: awesome descriptions, too 07:27:24 but that will mean fucking with the minor version 07:27:33 Thank you, some of them are tweaked versionsoof Mu's 07:27:37 but I as quite happy with them 07:27:47 bmh: you could have exploration pools with various gods, it seems 07:28:22 Dpeg: sure, no real harm there 07:29:56 And we could add a worship timer while we're at it 07:32:46 yes 07:33:33 Dpeg: someone (sorear?) had mentioned eldritching up the abyss - thoughts? 07:33:59 So we'd have worship timer for the passive abilities and debt for the active abilities... which means that we can roughly gauge god use (note that relationship between passive and active powers changes among gods). 07:34:15 bmh: no idea what eldritching is :) 07:34:39 Dpeg: add Lovecraftian-type horrors 07:35:38 ah, that was Galehar on the wiki 07:36:05 I have no familiarity with Lovecraft (apart from having to play Arkham Horror, a boardgame, once.) 07:36:24 A theme around this is fine with me if we keep the current flavour (Lugonu). 07:36:55 bmh: let's get real 07:37:00 (And by this I include the extended Lugonu backstory which will lead to altar desecration at some near point in the future, I hope.) 07:37:02 The abyss beastiary is a bit dull - uh oh the 3s are gunna eat me 07:37:04 real fixed point reals FTW 07:37:14 16.16 in this case 07:37:24 Kilobyte: why fixed point? 07:37:24 there's a wiki page for discussing new abyssal monster ideas: https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:monster:abyss 07:37:40 I am also not sure if we really want to invent a whole new bestiary of the Abyss. 07:37:57 Or just some standout, Abyss-only monsters. 07:38:15 Abyssal uniques and vaults 07:38:21 bmh: because it combines all the upsides of 1000 points per level with speed, and also is stylish 07:39:17 Kilobyte: whatever you settle on is fine by me 07:40:40 dpeg: Standout abyss-only monsters, imho 07:42:05 due: yes, that sounds okay with me 07:42:23 the abyss is currently terribly boring to me 07:42:43 I also like the idea that the Abyss is Lugonu's cesspool where she collects whatever monsters she can get hold of (the stronger, the better), to unleash them upon the world. 07:43:00 Mu_: XL 7 or XL 27? 07:43:24 Dpeg: if you're a spriggan the abyss is never scary 07:43:34 yes, that's true unfortunately 07:43:40 We could also take a cue from labyrinths and make Abyss levels self-shifting. 07:43:47 And infinite, as Linley told us. 07:43:56 either really. i tend to find things more boring the more random they are, though. looking for the rune is definitely the worst, though. 07:44:12 Dpeg: I'm going to implement that when I finish wrath 07:44:30 I have a hopeless character (DSFi^Y, four runes at the gates of Zot) who got the first ever abyssal rune for me. 07:44:41 bmh: what part? 07:44:44 still, Abyss is one of best places in the game currently, it would hurt to lose that 07:44:54 kilobyte: we will improve, not lose it 07:44:56 Dpeg: infinite and self shifting 07:45:03 * dpeg would never part with Lugonu. 07:45:25 in what way is it the best? 07:45:49 lots of excitement for most early banishments 07:46:08 Mu_: would you like an abyssal rune vault? 07:46:20 late banishments are not bad either, since you never know when you'll meet opposition you can't overcome 07:46:21 this is possible to do already 07:46:27 i think we have a few now 07:46:36 not with runes, afaik 07:46:40 the time with only small aboms and ynoxinuls is quite limited 07:46:49 kilobyte: I think monster generation could be harder 07:47:01 especially for late game visitors 07:47:15 but yes, I always liked the Abyss too 07:47:30 Mu_: it is also cool because it demands a completely different set of skills to survive than the ordinary game. 07:47:49 Dpeg: !haste? 07:47:56 swiftness and flight? :P 07:48:22 I'm out 07:49:11 there is more to it, and you know it 07:49:22 You're just been doing it for so long you forgot :) 07:49:36 -!- Galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 07:49:44 people complain because sometimes it takes a long time to find the rune 07:50:24 but then, you take 2 hours+ to get a regular one, so not finding abyssal in 30 minutes is not the end of the world 07:51:01 most people intentionally looking for the rune are probably 15-rune characters though for whom the abyss is trivial. it's not so much that finding the rune takes too long for them, it's that there's nothing to do and no goals in mind while you're waiting for it. 07:51:27 just keep pressing movement keys in diagonal directions for 9000 turns 07:51:57 Mu_: we know the complaints. There are some ideas for how to improve the matter. 07:52:19 okay :P it's more fun when you're just trying to get out of the abyss of course 07:52:25 * kilobyte notes the emphasis on diagonals you just mentioned. And people say it doesn't matter! 07:52:26 I will object to trashing the Abyss, but I am fine with modifying it. I believe there is a place for infinity in Crawl. 07:52:30 hate that rune though 07:52:50 Mu_: I wouldn't cling to the rune, btw. 07:52:55 why ca't we dump the abyss rune? 07:53:02 yes, we could 07:53:25 it's not a vital part, yeah 07:53:40 i thought you had to move diagonally in the abyss or the screen went like pacman :P 07:53:43 -!- upsy has joined ##crawl-dev 07:53:46 anyway, actually sleeping for real 07:53:55 If Abyss gets this whatever-you-call it flavour, we could draw on it: as you keep going there (and it should really twist and shift), you Int goes down. At the very least! :) 07:55:32 dpeg: already implemented, via the hordes of neqoxecs 07:55:39 haha 07:56:04 kilobyte: oka 07:56:04 y 07:56:15 just saying that once we have a theme, we could use it more 07:56:37 every time the abyss shifts you lose int :P 07:57:19 in Lovecraft, people went insane because of being explosed to the demons/astral entities, not just because of sitting in a scary place 08:03:06 you could say that in the Abyss you're inside a sanity-hostile astral plane 08:04:48 I think Maurice just threw a triple sword at me 08:07:09 st_: I'm not surprised, there was a number of crashes related to them throwing staves, a fix might have broken something else 08:12:10 "To this triple sword, the let me add my triple insult!" 08:17:15 I'm working on 2156 easier inventory (noun-verb). It's working fine, but I have to make some changes to the inscribe prompt 08:17:30 the actual one is not very good for some cases 08:17:37 punctuation is wrong 08:17:48 line can be even too long to fit in the terminal 08:18:33 I'm thinking of replacing "Press (i) to add, (r) to replace,...." by "You can (a)dd, (r)eplace or (c)lear,..." 08:18:52 but there's conflict between (a)dd and (a)utoinscribe 08:19:14 is it ok if I move (a)utoinscribe to (A)utoinscribe? 08:19:14 03dolorous * ra0e8b5c0de65 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-info.cc: Add minor cosmetic fixes. 08:19:42 03dolorous * rf5869708d5bf 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-info.h: Add missing final comma. 08:21:51 Galehar: sure 08:22:12 ok, cool 08:30:14 03kilobyte * r7d19ae443220 10/crawl-ref/source/ (10 files): Ashenzari: give constant exploration piety per level. 08:45:02 now that's an awful one 08:45:13 03kilobyte 07cats * rab368f9f62db 10/crawl-ref/source/godpassive.cc: Felids: limit Ashenzari bondage to kitty jewels (eew!) 08:45:17 03kilobyte 07cats * r36f2cc557849 10/crawl-ref/ (148 files in 18 dirs): Merge branch 'master' into cats 08:45:28 hehe 08:45:52 kitten bondage :) 08:46:19 3 jewel slots match 3 slot types of other species pretty well 08:47:07 slightly more limiting, as you don't retain the freedom to switch one of them, but that's ok 08:48:15 now let's move to resist confusion 08:48:30 wiki says "not full clarity". Except, that's what clarity does... 08:49:13 I think "Clar does more by now. 08:49:47 helps against some sources of forced berserk 08:51:23 kilobyte: okay, what do you think: full clarity effect? 08:51:28 perhaps that's easiest 08:51:39 ./crawl 08:51:43 whoops 08:51:57 cannot go wrong with ./crawl 08:56:18 dpeg, where did you talk about summons fighting out of los? 08:56:18 OG17: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 08:57:23 I see eino saying something a month ago that I didn't respond to 08:57:43 cats branch? :D 08:59:12 OG17: Didn't we have this dispute on the "how to modify summons" page? 08:59:44 * dpeg projects all the unsubstantiated complaints onto OG17. 08:59:46 if we did it was lost in revisions, I just see the end of the Ally Management page 08:59:48 haha 09:00:25 I don't think it came up, but sure 09:00:37 alright then 09:01:28 I was referring to https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:magic:summoning:feedback 09:06:16 -!- Textmode has quit [Quit: Over the ages, man has been certain of a great many things. some of these things were even true.] 09:06:27 that was a general comment I removed when you clarified you only meant out-of-sight 09:07:40 !messages 09:07:40 No messages for bmh. 09:09:30 No love, I see 09:12:07 OG17: ah, ok 09:12:16 ??bmh 09:12:16 bmh[1/1]: Has finally embraced civilisation. 09:12:42 !learn add bmh Coded Cheibriados. Is rumoured to worship this god in real life. 09:12:42 bmh[2/2]: Coded Cheibriados. Is rumoured to worship this god in real life. 09:12:43 I still use vim. 09:13:02 !learn add bmh Hates the other gods so much he is coding new wraths for them. 09:13:03 bmh[3/3]: Hates the other gods so much he is coding new wraths for them. 09:13:18 thanks for those wraths, incidentally 09:13:18 I'm not /actually/ lazy 09:13:27 bmh: :) 09:13:44 0) 09:13:54 Dpeg: I'm not writing the wraths, I'm writing the glue around the wraths 09:14:09 @whereis slickrick 09:14:10 slickrick the Phalangite (L21 MfCr), a worshipper of Okawaru, saved on Crypt:3 on 2010-10-05 after 68293 turns. 09:14:12 hey, I know, but it should read cool, not be correct 09:14:18 wait... do I get to shove Ash's wrath onto bmh? 09:14:33 kilobyte: not really :) 09:14:38 shucks :p 09:16:52 Crawl needs more STL... 09:25:00 -!- syllogism has quit [] 09:27:30 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 09:53:12 Cheibriados wrath should haste the player 09:53:13 -!- ortoslon has joined ##crawl-dev 09:53:22 or maybe not 09:54:17 Gretell: Sequell quit IRCnet a few days ago 09:54:27 I mean.. 09:54:33 greensnark: Sequell quit IRCnet a few days ago 09:54:53 with "EOF from client" 09:55:36 Is it back now 09:55:45 Yes, thanks :) 09:55:49 I had to reboot this machine a few times, forgot to bring it back up 09:56:09 It's been quiet so nobody really noticed 09:56:32 LOL 09:56:36 forgot sphinx has paralyze 09:56:37 :D 10:00:28 greensnark: you're here! 10:00:50 Just passing through 10:00:59 ??Cheibriados 10:00:59 cheibriados[1/3]: The Slow God! New temple god in 0.6. Gives piety for eating permafood while full, or for killing things faster than you -- you want to be a naga or wear ponderous. 10:01:06 greensnark: kilobyte is coding us a new god! 10:01:11 Just checking if I typod it right 10:01:18 I noticed 10:01:28 greensnark: And we have a new coder in the team. 10:01:36 Noticed that too :) 10:01:41 Good, so you're informed. 10:01:55 Oh, and we have trouble picking a license, but we w i l l move on. 10:02:08 How about WTFPL 10:02:21 GPL was the obvious choice, that discussion degenerated pretty quickly 10:02:26 as always 10:02:45 Robert injected a dose of sanity, but those cease to work very quickly, as usual. 10:03:00 >=GPLv2 seemed reasonable to me, but once the license wailing starts it keeps going 10:03:46 greensnark: now that you're here: do you think it would matter for practical purposes if we chose GPLv2, or >=GPLv2, or GPLv2+v3? 10:04:24 >=GPLv2 gives the most flexibility, I think 10:04:28 ok 10:04:47 But I'm not really interested in spending time wading through c-r-d on this :P 10:05:00 * dpeg wonders if devteams killed themselves over choice of license in the past. 10:05:10 greensnark: I can relate. 10:05:30 I'd like your input on ... more relevant issues than that, 10:06:17 greensnark: hey, a fun bit. Did you see b0rsuk attack me? 10:06:27 What, physically? 10:06:30 You are partially covered in iridescent scales (AC +3). thank you shining eye 10:06:30 ;D 10:06:33 Good thing you know tae kwon do 10:06:35 not yet, but that's only a matter of time 10:06:42 yes, gotta get me another belt :) 10:07:09 He questioned the wisdom of me "leading" DCSS. 10:07:31 -!- bmh has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:07:44 After getting over it, I re-made the Vehumet wiki by incorporating good ideas of b0rsuk. 10:07:52 :P 10:08:03 * dpeg feels like Jesus. 10:08:06 b0rsuk does tend to go into those odd rages 10:08:49 But ever since he talked about how he's really some kind of god badger, I've applied mental filters to everything he says 10:08:53 oho! the greensnark! 10:08:59 Blessed be the game that has fanatical followers like that. 10:09:00 Hey Napking 10:09:12 we need gplv3! 10:09:17 haha 10:09:28 you and me put gretell and monster under agplv3 ;D 10:09:34 -!- noob_napkin is now known as Napkin 10:10:37 Napkin: Well, >=GPLv2 will cover that :) 10:10:40 but seriously - how are you doing? 10:10:46 Busy busy :) 10:10:57 gooood! lucky you! 10:11:06 quarter end freeze was driving me crazy! 10:11:14 even read some perl tutorials again ;) 10:13:48 -!- bmh_away is now known as bmh 10:13:51 -!- bmh has quit [Changing host] 10:13:51 -!- bmh has joined ##crawl-dev 10:14:18 Napkin: Perl Godhood achieved yet? :) 10:14:32 lol, not even close ;D 10:14:43 !coffee Napkin 10:14:43 * Henzell hands Napkin a pot of irish coffee, brewed by the Serpent of Hell. 10:14:47 That ought to do it 10:14:53 \o/ 10:15:40 had to fix some webinterface someone else wrote in perl.. geeez.. after that my whole motivation to learn perl was gone with the wind :) 10:16:15 but.. coffee's a great idea! 10:16:21 !coffee greensnarking 10:16:21 * Henzell hands greensnarking a pot of irish coffee, brewed by Ijyb. 10:16:35 heh - prost! 10:16:59 Too much old Perl-4-style code around 10:17:22 Sysadmins always seemed overfond of perl 4 style :P 10:18:11 yeah? my tutorial said it's frowned upon nowadays 10:18:25 or.. was he talking about perl3 style? 10:18:35 Yes, but lots of sysadmins still write code like that :) 10:18:38 !coffee 10:18:39 * Henzell hands joosa a cup of café au lait, brewed by Nikola. 10:18:44 on my machine, /dev/random is really a script that runs: find . | grep .pl | xargs cat 10:18:45 electric 10:19:24 lol 10:19:42 I am slightly interested in perl 6 and how it will turn out 10:20:05 At least the logo is the best 10:20:10 so, as memeber of fsf - what license to you suggest to the devteam to use, bmh? ;) 10:20:31 Napkin: All Rights Reserved. 10:20:36 hehe 10:21:27 for crawl? GPLv2+ 10:21:37 GPLv3? EPL? I don't care. 10:22:11 "I don't care" points to the CBAPL 10:22:13 "I don't care"? 10:22:25 which is Can't Be Arsed Public License 10:22:37 and I guess it's public domain 10:22:38 may we quote you if RMS is around? :) 10:22:55 whatever 10:23:16 if you really care, send an e-mail to mattl@cnuk.org 10:23:26 has guardian nagas always had slow/teleport other? 10:23:28 or is it new 10:27:22 @??norris 10:27:22 Norris (04@) | Speed: 10 | HD: 20 | Health: 214 | AC/EV: 1/9 | Damage: 36 | Flags: evil, spellcaster, see invisible | Res: 06magic(133) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 7343 | Sp: brain feed, smiting (7-17), invisibility, confuse, paralyse, minor healing. 10:28:39 okay 10:28:41 cdo crashed :/ 10:28:49 123 10:28:52 don't think so ;) 10:29:35 bmh is Robert Stallman? 10:29:48 heck no. I'm much better looking 10:30:01 hehe 10:30:48 lol, zot trap infront of the snake rune 10:30:52 cast me into abyss 10:30:53 * Napkin whispers s/obert/ichard/ * 10:31:07 ouch 10:32:59 being better looking than rms isn't that hard ;-) 10:33:58 * dpeg thinks RMS is very sexy and would like him to pay visit to Ashenzari's bondage studio. 10:34:27 you know, in real life, dpeg isn't weird at all! 10:34:35 * dpeg has an unhealthy obsession with gurus. 10:34:49 -!- dpeg is now known as dpeguru 10:35:08 bhaak: shh, not now 10:35:21 at least have a healthy unix-beard 10:36:07 * dpeguru strokes his beard with his toes. 10:39:07 kitty bondage with RMS 10:39:41 new unique: Robert, preacher of Zin. wears a robe, uses Recite. 10:40:06 (by the way, with Aizul now a guardian serpent, we still need a naga unique) 10:41:34 Eronarn: sure, a naga unique would be cool. Just need a theme. 10:41:47 Unique Naga of Chei? 10:42:01 sounds dangerous :) 10:43:07 can someone look at my game on cdo? does it look weird to anyone else? 10:44:14 hm.. I bet my term is just set up incorrectly 10:44:36 -!- Vandal has quit [] 10:48:14 -!- jld has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:50:25 man whats the most turns anyone has spent looking for the abyssal rune? 10:50:31 bmh: still relevant? 10:50:38 rkd: 10^7 10:54:43 03dolorous * rfce1592a1067 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-info.cc: Handle kraken connectors' number properly in monster_info. 10:56:20 -!- dpeguru is now known as dpeg 10:56:26 can someone other than by make a squarelos windows build? 10:56:35 I can't. 10:56:43 !seen elliptic 10:56:43 I last saw elliptic at Fri Oct 8 10:36:29 2010 UTC (5h 20m 14s ago) quitting with message Ping timeout: 265 seconds. 10:57:06 03dolorous * rd123c9f2f0dd 10/crawl-ref/source/dungeon.cc: Typo fix. 10:57:57 I think I can 10:57:59 but later 10:58:03 have to go now 10:58:05 bye 10:58:13 -!- Galehar has quit [] 10:59:09 yay 11:00:05 03dolorous * r47e53aed81b4 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-info.cc: Handle demonic tentacle segments' number properly in monster_info. 11:07:43 hmm. weird. I haven't found the abyss rune yet, but moreso I haven't seen a single exit out of abyss yet :P 11:08:11 03dolorous * r95869d05bb00 10/crawl-ref/source/itemname.cc: Add spacing fix. 11:08:45 rkd: yesterday, I accidentally found the rune. But I wondered about the absence of L altars. Did you see any? 11:08:58 -!- jld has joined ##crawl-dev 11:10:16 I have this DSFi with no hope. Anybody wants to take over? :) 11:10:18 -!- ortoslon has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:10:24 dpeg I've seen many altars 11:10:37 rkd: lucky you! I would've switched, I guess. 11:10:44 -!- monky has joined ##crawl-dev 11:10:44 well I want the rune ;p 11:11:32 rkd: you can play my DSFi, he has four runes, one abyssical :P 11:11:58 ^^ 11:12:11 dpeque 11:12:21 was gonna try and make a faster allruner than my last allrune win. tho I started cutting down on turns very late 11:12:28 so dont know if I'll make it 11:12:53 I don't think I stand a chance in Zot. 11:12:56 -!- ortoslon has joined ##crawl-dev 11:13:17 No rPois found until extremely late, that meant I spent a lot of resources in Snake. No cTele either. 11:13:35 snake without rpois :o 11:13:38 that's tough 11:13:38 Yes! 11:13:49 I tried that once, died after like 10 turns on snake:1 11:13:50 I had Yredelemnul, so it was okay. 11:21:45 dpeg: naga grappler, with a constricting tail! 11:25:59 hey dpeg, sorry I haven't gotten back to your message yet 11:26:02 college papers call 11:26:31 Pacra: I see 11:26:43 * dpeg miffs a bit about the poor glutton god. 11:26:44 and their clarion message is "do me, and complete me well before you are awake at an ungodly hour trying to complete me" 11:28:34 dpeg: i think the most important thing to think about before all the cool gimmick stuff is 11:28:50 is this god going to give you saprovore or not :] 11:29:00 I vote no 11:29:29 I liked the "hungry ghost" effect, perhaps a higher invokable? 11:29:42 or were you still thinking of not using invocations? 11:29:51 what about using food strictly for piety? 11:29:55 I was thinking more freeform. 11:30:06 A god where being full is good, probably mandatory. 11:30:28 it would be hilarious if your piety was completely tied to your satiation 11:30:32 that wouldn't work ofc 11:30:38 It would be a greedy god, which is why I had this idea the god wants items the player collects. 11:30:45 i liked the "1 item" idea 11:30:46 yes 11:30:54 I don't even think the player should get it identified 11:31:11 Pacra: this would hurt every time you find a wand :) 11:31:33 there are some problems: what about the items the player has before starting to worship 11:31:34 indeed, so his abilities should give a concordant benefit 11:31:50 but right now editing the spider wiki page =) 11:31:57 hm 11:38:32 some of the ideas that i think should go well with the god 11:38:49 are the prayer-for-nutrition-loss-instead-of-hp 11:38:59 and conservation protection passive based on piety 11:39:30 yes 11:39:30 Pacra: easy. worship Chei and pondy all your gear. 11:39:51 I think the god needs another thematic injection apart from eating. 11:39:54 even dpeg agrees! 11:52:35 I had a look at SA yesterday and wondered how sane it was. 11:52:49 SA? 11:53:27 somethingawful? 11:53:31 ;] 11:54:00 yes 11:54:41 -!- casmith789 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:55:09 -!- casmith789 has joined ##crawl-dev 11:59:55 dpeg: dangerously not sane 12:00:48 what other illustrious website could give us a CAO user with a name like "niggergoku" 12:02:17 4chan. 12:03:03 -!- stabwound has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:04:18 -!- ogaz has joined ##crawl-dev 12:05:00 bmh: that's just an SA offshoot, doesn't count 12:07:49 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 12:08:33 stabwound: hi! 12:08:45 4chan is rather less sane in comparison 12:09:29 Train time 12:09:33 see you later folks 12:09:36 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: away!] 12:09:36 byebye! 12:16:39 -!- Spray has joined ##crawl-dev 12:19:41 -!- MadCoyote has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:45:25 ok. I have most of the wrath patch 12:47:44 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 12:48:26 * bmh makes sure he didn't destroy the universe 12:51:26 -!- lorimer has joined ##crawl-dev 12:52:50 -!- lorimer_ has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:54:03 any committers awake? 12:54:37 -!- ogaz has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:00:22 03dolorous * re37fa5abd221 10/crawl-ref/source/ (mon-info.cc mon-info.h): Move monster_info::intel() from mon-info.h to mon-info.cc. 13:00:24 03dolorous * r8dd9f8591009 10/crawl-ref/source/ (menu.cc mon-info.cc mon-stuff.cc mon-util.cc mon-util.h): Move "no wounds" monster description checks into their own function. 13:23:51 -!- lorimer has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:24:46 03dolorous * rab7fbdc0679f 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-util.cc: Move the routine to get kraken heads into its own function. 13:25:44 -!- lorimer has joined ##crawl-dev 13:35:20 03dolorous * r99ac18ac6dd1 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-util.cc: Add more sanity checks for _get_kraken_head(). 13:38:04 03dolorous * r177016a0ea25 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-util.cc: Fix compilation. 14:10:50 -!- ortoslon has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:13:10 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 14:13:28 I have a patch 14:15:26 http://bhickey.net/wrath.tgz 15:10:40 Kraken tentacles appearance refreshes while moving cursor to target. (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2693) by Twilight 15:14:18 -!- bmh has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:16:32 -!- bmh has joined ##crawl-dev 15:16:32 -!- bmh has quit [Changing host] 15:16:32 -!- bmh has joined ##crawl-dev 15:23:49 -!- bmh has quit [Quit: bmh] 15:46:34 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 15:49:07 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 15:49:24 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 16:22:16 -!- bmh has joined ##crawl-dev 16:22:16 -!- bmh has quit [Changing host] 16:22:16 -!- bmh has joined ##crawl-dev 16:22:46 hullo? 16:22:50 Hi! 16:26:36 ehm I got a question. if someone were to hypothetically die wielding the staff of dispater. would said player ghost be able to evoke the staff to unleash hellfire? 16:26:41 no 16:26:42 hypothetically speaking ofcourse 16:26:44 DAMNIT 16:26:45 :D 16:27:48 dpeg: I delivered on the wrath 16:28:31 granted, tension isn't normalized 16:28:38 All bow to the wrath-master bmh! 16:28:43 !coffee bmh 16:28:44 * Henzell hands bmh a cup of café au lait, brewed by Snorg. 16:30:40 dpeg: It needs a bit more ancillary work, like worship timers and the exploration code 16:30:44 tension needs normalization 16:30:58 bmh: can you address those? 16:31:01 but if you wanted to write a godwrath that ate tension and severity, it would work 16:31:14 If not, please mention them carefully when you upload the patch. 16:31:23 dpeg: exploration is kilobyte's bag, I believe 16:31:30 yes 16:31:46 here we go 16:31:49 bmh: the debt is a good idea, I think. 16:31:57 galehar: Bonjour! 16:32:03 dpeg approves! all we need now is jpeg! 16:32:03 Bonsoir 16:32:30 bmh: I was skeptical at first but tracking god service in this way is very good. 16:32:41 galehar: ain't no day without commit, is it? :) 16:33:03 this one is pretty good I think 16:33:33 galehar: noun-verb? 16:33:40 yep 16:33:55 This is an ancient idea, the opposite of YANI :) 16:34:15 dpeg: The precise calculation is this: When you spend piety on your god, you incur: random2avg(piety_loss, 2) 16:34:41 We were adamantly against it, because verb-noun saves a keystroke and makes grouping of useful items easier (list all weapons for wield etc), but your patch allows to go noun-verb when desired, and this is good. 16:34:45 hrumph -- why don't we just have gaussians in Crawl? 16:34:54 bmh: sure we don't? 16:35:10 the CIA is either slow or dead 16:35:12 ir's just convenient 16:35:30 galehar: yes, but people usually asked to *switch* the system 16:35:42 no, that's stupid! 16:35:45 bmh: random2avg is like a gaussian, but less buggy 16:36:02 what does yani means? 16:36:08 sorear: can you explain when you mean by buggy? 16:36:18 NH jargon: Yet Another New/Nifty Idea 16:36:35 bmh: gaussians produce arbitrary outliers 16:36:37 galehar: http://tinyurl.com/34omaku 16:36:38 yeah I remember it 16:36:56 when people write 20 + gaussian(2.0, 2.0), they usually forget the handle the negative case 16:37:10 mhmm 16:37:14 random2avg has a clearly defined min and max, so it's easier to use safely 16:37:29 and a Kobold will never hit you for a thousand points of damage 16:38:06 bmh: I believe that damage in Crawl _is_ more volatile than elsegame. 16:38:18 elsegame? 16:38:38 other roguelikes 16:38:47 gotcha 16:40:30 well, it might, but it would be a bug 16:40:47 there was once a bug that dealt the player 15000 damage 16:41:06 Zannick: if we were using gaussians, very rarely a seven sigma event will roll on by and you'll explode 16:41:22 hahaha 16:43:17 there's a hilarious bug in adom where kicking walls can do > 10^9 damage 16:43:36 sorear: funny bug. Sad if it stays forever. 16:43:57 the wall kick damage formula is rng(min(Str / 4, 2)) 16:44:01 should be max() 16:44:17 and the adom rng interprets rng(0) as rng(2^32) 16:44:22 ha 16:44:25 sorear: you've been disassembling ADOM? 16:44:39 yes 16:44:46 Wow, that's dedication. 16:44:47 (past perfect tense) 16:45:15 sorear: Didn't you want to slap Mr B on the head, at the occasion? 16:48:49 All this work.... for primarily egotistical reasons. 16:53:20 dpeg: the ADOM code, while horrible in its own right, does not hold a candle to Crawl 1.1 16:53:34 did anyone look at my patch? 16:53:39 sorear: I am not saying the code is bad. But that it is hidden. 16:53:57 bmh: can't... don't be so impatient :) 16:54:47 bmh: where is it? 16:56:41 bhickey.net/wrath.tgz 16:57:14 any reason you didn't put it on mantis? 16:57:26 03raphael.langella * r43cd9ead5e14 10/crawl-ref/source/ (mapmark.cc spl-book.cc): whitespace fix 16:57:26 03raphael.langella * r61533f3cda7d 10/crawl-ref/source/ (describe.cc quiver.cc quiver.h): Perform actions on item from the inventory 16:57:29 sloth? 16:57:55 I'll file it 16:57:58 ??bmh[2] 16:57:58 bmh[2/3]: Coded Cheibriados. Is rumoured to worship this god in real life. 16:58:19 bmh may be slow, but the CIA is slower :) 16:58:28 indeed 16:58:44 bmh: +1 for patch! 16:58:55 up on mantis it goes 16:59:30 bmh: it's huge! 16:59:56 galehar: nah, I just commit a lot 17:00:03 ok 17:00:22 can I tell git to make a single patch out of my branch? 17:00:45 yes 17:01:02 you need to git reset HEAD^ 17:01:06 14 times 17:01:10 ugh. 17:01:19 or git reset HEAD^^^^^^^^^^^ 17:01:38 or there may be 17:01:45 another syntaxe 17:02:14 or you create an empty, branch, apply all the patches at once and commit once 17:03:02 that's a misfeature 17:03:16 wtf 17:03:25 dude, git reset HEAD^14 :P 17:03:39 and no 17:03:42 there is a legit way to do that 17:03:47 http://tinyurl.com/34omaku 17:03:49 er 17:03:51 bmh: git rebase -i master 17:03:52 yeah, don't listen to me, I'm just a noob :) 17:04:03 bmh: then squash or fixup all patches that are not the first one 17:06:38 patch 4 doesn't apply 17:06:47 and run util/checkwhite ! :) 17:07:12 dammit. I accidentally killed my terminal while rebasing and can't restart the rebase 17:07:38 ah, the magic of git 17:07:59 -!- Spray has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:12:26 git rebase seems to be very useful, thanks for pointing it out 17:13:18 but it does nothing to help bmh to merge his patches, he still have to either reset HEAD^14 or apply the patches in a new branch 17:13:30 I squashed the unimportant ones 17:13:34 I have 7 patches now :-) 17:14:13 -!- MadCoyote has joined ##crawl-dev 17:19:07 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 17:20:50 someone take a look at the ctrl+O screen in trunk, the god names are having weird formatting issues with lines being too long 17:21:01 Wensley: what? 17:21:41 the gods are listed in alphabetical order over three lines, and the first two lines are both too long to display properly 17:21:49 ah. Ash's to blame :) 17:21:59 there are way too many spaces, of course 17:22:40 right, speading gods out to four lines would allow us to keep the names aligned and leave things in alphabetical order 17:22:50 instead of having equal distance between starting letters (i.e. using columns 1, 1+N, 1+2N etc.), we should have equal number of spaces between columns. 17:22:58 This is harder to achieve, of course. 17:23:17 There is no need for fourth line. 17:23:34 Where is the Ctrl-O screen generated? 17:24:03 dpeg: not sure what you mean by the difference between starting letter distance and columnar space distance 17:24:29 right now, we place god names as follows: 17:24:46 https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2694 17:25:01 take longest god name (probably Kikubaaqudgha), add number of spaces, and use that as column size for all columns 17:25:24 ah 17:25:28 What we should do instead is this: for each column, find the longest name in it, add three space. That's the size for _this_ column. 17:25:31 The Shining One is longer :-) 17:25:34 tso is, yeah 17:25:36 hi 17:25:41 Hi due! 17:25:50 dpeg: it's in dgn-overview.cc 17:26:02 I am not sure if it is worth writing code for that. 17:26:02 dpeg: that should work, it would be worth leaving names unaligned to get rid of all that nasty whitespace 17:26:09 Would it be okay if I align them by hand? 17:26:15 deeeeepeg 17:26:19 Wensley: names would still be aligned. 17:26:23 Wrath: religious debt & tension. (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2694) by brendan 17:26:23 I have become an active angband developer again 17:26:25 the enemy within! 17:26:50 * dpeg sheds a tear for our beloved channel fairy elly. 17:26:51 ah, I get what you mean now 17:26:59 I like 'channel fairy' 17:27:14 galehar, due: what do you think? Is aligned Ctrl-O gods by hand good or bad? 17:27:24 elly: what are you doing? And which band + version? 17:27:30 dpeg: github.com/elly/angband 17:27:38 dpeg: major refactoring and adding unit tests ;) 17:27:47 not breaking compat with vanilla in any way, just cleaning up code 17:27:47 doing it manually seems preferable, new gods aren't implemented all that often and even when they are the new solution might not be ideal 17:28:00 elly: so it's vanilla? 17:28:03 does crawl have unit tests? 17:28:05 dpeg: yep 17:28:10 dpeg: vanilla + refactors + unit tests 17:28:16 gonna merge back into trunk in a week maybe 17:28:19 galehar,due: okay with ^ ? 17:28:53 * elly has something like 150 tests so far 17:28:54 * dpeg ponders his lacking skills as an agitator: after all these years, elly still has not ingrained what pure rogueliking should be about. 17:28:55 dpeg: with what, sorry? 17:29:02 due: Ctrl-O + gods screen. 17:29:08 Oh, I haven't been reading, sorry 17:29:09 Guess nobody cares and I should go ahead. 17:29:15 Go ahead :) 17:29:16 I trust you. 17:29:25 same here :) 17:29:47 * dpeg does not trust himself. 17:29:55 * elly trusts dpeg 17:30:04 wait, you know what: it's perfectly aligned in tiles :) 17:30:28 18:05 < bmh> dammit. I accidentally killed my terminal while rebasing and can't restart the rebase 17:30:32 git rebase --continue 17:30:36 what pure rogueliking should be about? 17:30:41 elly: git rebase --abort :-) 17:30:45 that works too 17:31:07 18:11 <+galehar> but it does nothing to help bmh to merge his patches, he still have to either reset HEAD^14 or apply the patches in a new branch 17:31:17 that process is isomorphic to rebasing off master 17:31:23 if you did your work on master, don't do that 17:31:33 I didn't. I branched 17:31:42 then just git rebase master 17:32:24 I misunderstood the doc then. It says commits are reapplied one by one. But I guess they are not commited then, right? 17:32:37 They are committed. 17:32:40 they're already committed, if they're commits... 17:32:55 in any case, 'git rebase' is for handling 'I was working on a branch and master moved' 17:33:37 if you want to squash stuff, use git rebase --interactive master 17:33:49 yep 17:33:55 (you usually do) 17:34:02 * due squashes dpeg. 17:36:12 should Ice Storm destroy !'s that are on the ground? 17:36:37 no 17:36:55 only if firestorm should destroy scrolls as well 17:37:06 firestorm does destroy scrolls i believe 17:37:08 -!- Danei has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:37:26 why does orefrig only destroy inventory potions and not those on the ground (?) 17:37:31 due: It doesn't seem to 17:37:40 then I don't see why ice storm shouldn't destroy potions 17:37:43 same with freezy/flamey clouds (?) 17:37:44 * bmh firestorms a stack of 12 !acquire 17:38:13 that's the point, really 17:38:22 IMHO no spell over level 5 should destroy items 17:38:23 -!- Danei has joined ##crawl-dev 17:38:57 potions of acquirement? 17:38:57 spells that frequently destroy items are ultimately not worth using and so the effort coding them is wasted 17:39:02 sorear: not sure I agree... lots of power should always come with drawbacks. 17:39:13 Zannick: er, ? 17:39:15 not ! 17:39:16 sorear: also disagree here... if the power is strong enough. 17:39:41 dpeg: Refrig is amazing but I don't use it unless I'm a mummy or have dropped all my potions somewhere. 17:42:28 ice storm doesn't freeze monsters 17:42:48 dropping an ice storm on a fire storm is... meh 17:43:00 * due goes out. 17:43:06 also, when there's no target in range, ice storm is grey and firestorm is not 17:43:40 -!- neunon_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:43:46 it's because of the targeting style 17:43:57 -!- neunon_ has joined ##crawl-dev 17:44:39 there was a bug that cut Ice Storm's damage in half for several major versions and nobody noticed 17:45:23 any complaints if I suppress the expected ranges for Abyss, Hell, Pan portals in Ctrl-O? 17:45:38 fire spells sometimes destroy scrolls on the ground 17:45:56 bug! 17:46:10 Cast fire storm, then cast chain lightning. 17:46:18 I totally abused refridge on a DS with ice facet 17:46:22 -!- Zannick has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:46:29 -!- Zannick has joined ##crawl-dev 17:46:33 You'll be asked if you really want to attack your fire vortex. Say "Yes," you'll get prompted for the next vortex, say "no" 17:46:45 felirx: abuses should be first reported, then repaired. 17:47:20 it still breaks potions even with the ice facet 17:47:23 but not too many 17:47:41 DS with ice facet just have rC+ and protect potions, it's not any more abusable than any other source of cold resistance or conservation 17:47:42 I had a healing wand though so not that huge need for potions 17:48:28 the best part is definetely clearing last level of vault 17:48:35 enter hasted, 2-3 refridge, 20k exp ding 17:51:27 damn, I am not good enough to do that 17:51:39 I can disable showing Hell: D:21-27 Pan: D:21-27 Abyss: D:21-27 17:51:45 but I'll be missing cleanup stuff. 17:52:01 -!- bmh has quit [Quit: bmh] 17:52:47 -!- casmith789 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:54:44 -!- casmith789 has joined ##crawl-dev 17:55:30 -!- galehar has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.10/20100914125854]] 17:56:41 firestorm does destroy scrolls 17:56:50 just not guaranteed 17:57:10 03dpeg * r8b073fa010bb 10/crawl-ref/source/dgn-overview.cc: Realign god columns in Ctrl-O screen. 17:57:33 Wensley: thank you 17:57:38 I think it looks better now. 17:57:52 yeah all fire spells have a chance to destroy scrolls actually, i got bolt of fire to do it 17:58:22 so don't see why ice storm shouldn't do potions 17:58:28 with the same low chance 17:59:08 freezing cloud too that spell needs a nerf anyway 17:59:11 agreed 18:00:13 the cloud spells can be placed on walls incidentally 18:00:24 and they flood through the wall and kill things on the other side 18:00:33 ouch 18:00:37 yeah I've noticed that too it's pretty bad 18:00:40 we've only fixed that three times already 18:00:40 Mu_: would you file? 18:00:53 huh? that happens in 0.7? 18:01:04 you can also place clouds out of lof with ! 18:01:07 This is Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup 0.8.0-a0-1763-g8568daa 18:01:20 I thought it didn't, but I guess only fireball 18:01:34 You've always been supposed to be able to put clouds out of LOF 18:01:36 and by lof I mean out of the area that isn't greyed 18:01:41 behind statues and other monsters 18:01:47 oh 18:04:28 imo freezing cloud doesn't need a nerf because of the three schools + level 6 which makes it so hard to cast. On the other hand this "nerf" isn't big, so doesn't matter really. All it really needs is a bugfix 18:06:20 i think it does way too much damage for how easy it is to drop onto people 18:06:35 Freezing Cloud / Poisonous Cloud can be cast through walls (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2695) by Mu 18:07:00 https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2069 found it 18:19:38 -!- rkd has quit [] 18:26:12 -!- neunon_ has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:35:50 -!- casmith789 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:37:22 03dpeg * r6db63e53ac18 10/crawl-ref/source/dgn-overview.cc: Don't list Pan, Abyss, Hell ranges in Ctrl-O anymore. 18:37:32 And with that, nights. 18:37:59 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:52:26 dpeg codes?! 18:53:32 he does 19:02:22 we actually try to prevent him whenever possible 19:04:56 -!- syllogism has quit [] 19:14:13 -!- Mu_ has quit [Quit: Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place.] 19:20:20 -!- blackpenguin has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:23:02 -!- Wensley_ has joined ##crawl-dev 19:24:30 -!- Wensley__ has joined ##crawl-dev 19:26:23 -!- Wensley has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:26:38 -!- Wensley__ is now known as Wensley 19:27:14 because he codes problematicly, or because his time is best spent otherwise? 19:27:42 -!- Wensley__ has joined ##crawl-dev 19:28:20 -!- Wensley_ has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:28:24 Because Crawl development is actually a mornington crescent-esque game with mysterious rules 19:30:42 -!- Wensley has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:30:49 -!- Wensley__ is now known as Wensley 19:31:11 Siber: both 19:31:37 part of "problematically" is "slowly" 19:37:41 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 19:37:47 -!- blackpenguin has joined ##crawl-dev 19:43:47 -!- Wensley has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:48:02 -!- eith has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:00:19 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 20:02:43 -!- TGWi has joined ##crawl-dev 20:39:12 okay 20:43:29 okay 20:44:21 i'm bumping minor version again 20:44:29 you monster 20:45:01 FR: a small fee every time someone bumps minor version 20:45:45 would you rather i bumpbed major? 20:47:05 is major the one that breaks compatibility? 20:47:09 yes 20:47:17 yes 20:51:49 do it every few hours, just in case 21:21:05 -!- TGWi has left ##crawl-dev 21:21:11 -!- TGWi has joined ##crawl-dev 21:21:17 btw, loving the topic 21:21:19 -!- TGWi has left ##crawl-dev 21:35:44 -!- Spray has joined ##crawl-dev 21:36:03 -!- Spray is now known as FunkyGnoll 21:37:55 -!- MadCoyote has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:09:15 -!- TGWi has joined ##crawl-dev 22:10:51 -!- upsy has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:29:45 -!- TGWi has left ##crawl-dev 22:30:31 -!- blackpenguin has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:45:05 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:52:11 -!- blackpenguin has joined ##crawl-dev 23:03:06 crash when searching the help database for a monster called "death" (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2696) by corence 23:03:26 -!- ogaz has joined ##crawl-dev 23:23:36 -!- gamefreak264 has joined ##crawl-dev