00:12:41 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:24:39 03dolorous * r7122411d4a5f 10/crawl-ref/source/dungeon.cc: Update _dgn_give_mon_spec_items() to account for dwarves. 00:24:41 03dolorous * r12d444bf77ba 10/crawl-ref/docs/develop/levels/syntax.txt: Update the documentation to account for dwarven items. 00:52:08 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 01:04:47 03dolorous * rb826f73ffd20 10/crawl-ref/source/delay.cc: Simplify. 01:04:51 03dolorous * rd65e37d0cf9d 10/crawl-ref/source/ (14 files): Fix inconsistencies regarding genus vs. species for orcs and draconians. 01:27:05 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:31:03 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 01:59:02 -!- Giomancer has joined ##crawl-dev 02:22:16 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 02:22:35 -!- Wensley has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.17/2009122204]] 02:36:44 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:38:33 -!- monky has quit [Quit: what] 02:47:05 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 02:47:16 wb zabameister 02:48:55 on another note, why do giants and cyclopes not pick up large rocks from the floor 02:49:34 that one confuses me 02:52:27 MONUSE_STARTING_EQUIPMENT 02:52:32 pretty simple 02:53:40 seems like "starting equipment" should include their own equipment that they threw 02:53:41 (due to the lack of a monster size system, this flag is the only thing preventing ogres from picking up plate mail, something Erolcha will happily do. Note: this statement may be outdated.) 03:10:52 -!- Galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 03:52:33 sorear: monsters did have a size system at least in 0.3, and that's the earliest version I checked. It's likely it predates Stone Soup. 03:53:08 I know it wasn't used consistanly, I definitely fought Erolcha in full plate once 03:55:46 I fixed a bug with the player's size being inconsistent with monsters with respect to kobolds/etc wearing plate, and that's why I looked... I didn't look carefully for SIZE_LARGE, though. 03:59:10 it's definitely still not used consistantly, for instance fire giants wear armour and titans won't 03:59:20 at least as of a few months ago 04:00:15 titan is MONUSE_OPEN_DOORS, stone giant MONUSE_STARTING_EQUIPMENT, fire giant MONUSE_WEAPONS_ARMOUR 04:00:24 for no obvious reason 04:04:57 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 04:14:05 There is a click. Suddenly, the liches are set free! 04:14:15 that should probably not happen if i've already killed the liches 04:16:16 hm 04:16:19 airstrike? 04:17:37 they're encased in rock 04:17:49 sometimes it's rock, sometimes stone 04:18:39 and right, airstrike/smite/firestorm will do 04:22:36 yeah, I killed them with airstrike earlier today 04:28:47 -!- upsy has joined ##crawl-dev 04:39:38 -!- elliptic has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:07:05 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 05:07:07 Cheers 05:07:07 dpeg: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 05:07:10 !messages 05:07:10 (1/1) due said (10h 28m 49s ago): Well, I didn't have time for it at all last weekend, and the likelihood of me having time to do it this week is... looking slim. So it's probably best to hand it over to someone else; it's a relatively easy tast, too. 05:07:21 sniff 05:07:31 Anyone here who volunteers? 05:07:51 -!- blabber has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:12:17 ENOCONTEXT 05:12:36 ? 05:12:57 task = 'p' <--> 'aP' 05:13:18 ah 05:13:41 -!- neunon has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:19:39 dpeg: for Yred, it's straightforward, for Ely, it would take finding quite a lot of places 05:41:55 moin 05:43:48 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 05:44:57 what does marking a monster as a god gift actually do? 06:16:17 back 06:16:23 doing school stuff 06:16:42 Mu_: not sure, but it is probably relevant for when you attack it 06:17:26 kilobyte: but the functions of sac weapon and of life saving would stay the same, just the command keys would swap? 06:23:28 dpeg: no, prayer and abilities with a duration don't share any code. 06:24:18 converting Yred's Injury Mirror to a duration is kind of trivial, Ely's code is intertwined with other gods' lifesaving and prayer in quite a few places 06:24:30 I see. 06:24:36 Should ask dolorous, perhaps. 06:24:48 Also, pokemon time. 06:27:43 actually, most of the lifesaving during prayer code is obsolete and can be ripped away 06:32:53 03kilobyte * r319516fa3f15 10/crawl-ref/source/mgen_data.h: Explicitely specify the type for genflags. 06:32:54 03kilobyte * r185dc20a7ed6 10/crawl-ref/source/ (dungeon.cc dungeon.h makeitem.cc makeitem.h): Specify the type of mapmask as uint32_t. 06:33:01 03kilobyte * r155ff7731917 10/crawl-ref/source/ (23 files): Get rid of some more insidious longs. 06:48:00 03dolorous * r925a6898b246 10/crawl-ref/source/mapdef.cc: Fix monster god setting in vaults for gods with spaces in their names. 06:48:01 03dolorous * r51a2a2621170 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/variable/altar.des: Specify zin_angel's god in lowercase, as parsing is case-insensitive. 06:48:05 03dolorous * r1c9b63fc9481 10/crawl-ref/docs/develop/levels/syntax.txt: Change the example for "god:" and "god_gift" to use a TSOite orc. 07:07:16 -!- Textmode has quit [Quit: Over the ages, man has been certain of a great many things. some of these things were even true.] 07:21:28 back 07:21:44 hi dpeg 07:30:33 Hi due! 07:33:39 dpeg: what message would you use for when Injury Mirror ends? 07:34:47 for starting it, blue_anna's "You kneel/coil in prayer and are bathed in unholy energy." is good enough, I guess 07:34:58 kilobyte: "Yredelemnul will no longer mirror your injuries?" 07:35:08 yes, that sounds good 07:35:29 I would like it if those special abilities still allude to prayers (as in, real-life prayers) 07:35:40 that would kind of suggest you can't use that ability anymore 07:35:57 suggests 07:36:03 true 07:37:14 is no longer mirroring 07:40:58 -!- dpeg has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:41:01 -!- kilobyte has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:52:33 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 07:52:37 sorry, something's wrong the connection 07:52:53 -!- kilobyte has joined ##crawl-dev 07:52:57 How about this: "Yredelemnul ceases to mirror your injuries."? 07:53:06 Or "...stops mirroring your injuries."? 07:53:11 -!- dpeg_ has joined ##crawl-dev 07:53:56 You feel matte. 07:54:00 "Your injury mirror disappears." 07:54:27 Zao: never heard that word :) 07:56:53 matte is non-reflective 07:57:24 yay great connection 07:57:26 Zao: <3 07:58:13 fine with me 07:59:16 kilobyte: there should still be status lights for the effects, something like "Pray" for E, "Mirror" for Y. 08:01:00 dpeg: of course 08:01:19 I don't have the slightest idea how to call the Ely ability, though 08:05:10 Pray could be okay 08:06:26 or Protect 08:06:27 except that would be often mistaken for, you know, prayer 08:06:37 better 08:06:55 yes, as long as well call p=prayer 08:07:03 Note that s=sacrifice is free. 08:08:35 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:13:00 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 09:06:30 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 09:11:42 -!- monky has joined ##crawl-dev 09:12:58 how come malign gateway isn't in squarelos version? 09:34:33 03dolorous * r07a14424c161 10/crawl-ref/source/it_use2.cc: Add minor cosmetic fix. 09:47:13 03dolorous * ra2b319a53f26 10/crawl-ref/source/xom.cc: Add potions of restore abilities to Xom's granted potion effects. 09:47:34 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:54:46 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 10:02:15 -!- rkd has joined ##crawl-dev 10:04:06 had some ideas for the radiant caverns portal, and also learning how to make an entry vault to try and give it a few shots :o 10:04:07 https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:vault:portal_vaults#radiant_caverns 10:07:15 rkd: yes, good stuff. Although harder than your average portal vault :) 10:09:22 harder to implement, that is 10:10:49 yea i figured 10:11:44 tho how hard would it be for the layout to after some time change colour and start randomly spawning fire/ice clouds, and then switch to another colour and sprout other clouds? 10:12:04 that would be doable with timed triggers 10:12:13 we have similar stuff in Volcano 10:13:04 kk, well was fun read and just got some ideas instantly ;p and got curious in making an entry vault, much more intricate than I had thought :D 10:13:24 rkd: start with easy vaults and work your way up :) 10:13:29 Cannot have too many vaults. 10:14:17 yea, done reading like 60% of syntax.txt, just doing some easy square layouts and trying to get it right so it will have monsters etc. 10:14:40 Reading your comments I think we need a circus vault, complete with clowns, elephants etc. 10:15:06 :D 10:15:08 could be fun 10:15:23 I guess the concept of Circus is ancient, right? The Romans had it. 10:15:31 a little bit of randomness is always fun 10:15:32 yea 10:15:35 it's very old 10:15:37 rkd: reading syntax.txt is one approach, but I think it is easier to just look at entry_easy.des (or whatever it is called). Of course, there are those selected few who actually read documentation. 10:16:12 yea I got a few documents up atm 10:16:22 the introduction to make an easy entry is one of them I believe 10:16:48 yes 10:17:01 I rewrote these parts at some point to make it easier to get into this 10:17:21 It's appreciated :) 10:17:32 Did it for selfish reasons :) 10:17:40 I want your vaults! 10:17:53 making vaults that change colors should be quite easy now, look at pan_disco_hall in pan.des for an example 10:17:56 YOU CANT HANDLE MY VAULTS 10:18:12 okey 10:18:17 doy: yes 10:18:26 The technology should be all present. 10:19:36 a cirkus vault should have cannon traps, shoots you x squares in a set direction and those some damage 10:19:37 :D 10:19:44 does some* 10:19:55 ancient circus :) 10:20:01 :( 10:20:06 If the Romans couldn't do it, we won't either! Well, not quite... 10:20:06 magical cannon :( 10:20:11 ancient magical cannon 10:20:13 ;D 10:20:14 hehe 10:20:41 "The ancient magical musketeer fires an ancient magicale muskete." 10:20:49 =) 10:21:41 well a cirkus with lions, elephants, clowns, bearded lady that has "beard tentacles" similar to kraken ;P 10:22:07 well gonna go shop, and learn some more about making vaults later 10:22:20 rkd: will be much better once we have music, so we can play proper circus tunes :) 10:22:30 rkd: more shopping power to you! 10:22:31 :) 10:26:52 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 10:27:06 is there a page for the combat/AC/etc. revamp stuff? 10:27:47 yes 10:27:53 enter AC in the search box 10:28:33 ah, but is it the defense page? the balance one? the AC nerf one? :) 10:28:39 not sure which (or all) we are using 10:29:33 there is no grand plan for combat overhaul 10:29:40 ah 10:29:52 i kind of want to approach it from a basic, 'stories' level as i haven't seen that done yet 10:29:52 dpeg_: we couldn't raid any sound packages due to license issues, but if we manage to complete the license stuff, there's plenty of sound to choose from 10:30:06 kilobyte: yes 10:30:16 i think it might help to get the formulas hammered out, if we knew what each of AC/SH/EV/HP was 'supposed to do' 10:30:27 As I wrote, we should end up with a usable license with the 0.8 release. 10:30:41 Eronarn: it's a major headache. 10:31:02 Not the basic concepts, but comparing to current situation. 10:31:14 Brent collapsed there, and there's no guarantee we wouldn't. 10:32:04 yeah, it will probably be very iterative; but i worry we're going too much into formulas atm without having an idea of where those formulas are supposed to end up 10:32:09 i think we should get ac/ev into a usable state before doing anything with wider scope 10:32:17 of course 10:32:36 I started the AC thing with the best intentions and I manged to fuck it up. 10:33:11 Of course we (or I) learned something... I believe that heavier armours should profit a whole lot more from GDR. But it's a painful procerss. 10:33:52 i think a key point is that ev *should* be worse than ac, to some extent 10:34:01 because light armour has so many side benefits 10:34:15 doy: I agree 10:34:21 casting, lack of combat penalties, etc 10:34:31 It used to be like this, because AC is reliable whereas EV is not. 10:36:00 the extra gdr is necessary to differentiate the situation where dodging characters end up with like 20 ac anyway because of armour enchantments 10:36:16 (maybe light body armour should have a lower enchantment cap) 10:36:59 doy: that's a pretty cool idea 10:37:06 although even +2 on everything is ~15ac easily 10:37:07 not sure it was ever mentioned like this 10:37:23 which is possibly still too much 10:37:24 Can only enchant body armour up to base AC. 10:37:35 dpeg_: hmmm, yeah, that could work 10:37:45 doy: I think we should slowly nerf. 10:37:55 If it is still too much. we nerf more. 10:38:09 Seems to be better than single, big attempts. 10:38:11 it'd have implications for corrosion stuff, people won't be able to do slime with their robes of resistance anymore 10:38:16 but that may be a good thing 10:38:43 yes 10:38:51 was aware of that when replying 10:38:53 and it will make medium armour more valuable too 10:38:58 Galehar: +1 10:39:06 Galehar thinks like a designer, not like a player. 10:39:10 Galehar: you're one of us :) 10:39:14 :) 10:39:21 one other thing we could look at is the nature of spellcasting penalties 10:39:38 for example - the failure rate due to armor could be totally separate from the failure rate of the spell normally 10:39:53 so getting super good at casting a spell does not mean anything in terms of casting it in armor 10:40:04 but on the other hand, to cast in armor, you just need to be very good at armor rather than very good at magic 10:40:09 What I like about doy's enchantment cap is that is achieves what we want (AC guys have higher AC) in a very natural fashion. 10:40:22 Eronarn: yes 10:40:40 Eronarn: isn't that how it works now? 10:40:56 Would anybody mind if I propose the enchantment cap at c-r-d? Should be very easy to get into the game once the screams of enraged players ebb down. 10:41:05 dpeg_: go for it 10:41:24 i know out of control dodging ac has been something kilobyte has complained about for a while 10:41:28 This channel has sane people. I value anyone's objections :) 10:41:38 Yes, kilobyte is good. 10:41:41 doy: i don't believe so, but i could be wrong 10:42:02 right now, there is an armor penalty assessed, which decreases with armor skill 10:42:13 Eronarn: what's the difference? 10:42:15 !learn add kilobyte Is so competent that he should rename to at least terabyte. 10:42:15 kilobyte[3/3]: Is so competent that he should rename to at least terabyte. 10:42:31 doy: 50% success rate * 90% success rate, vs. -50% success rate + 90% success rate 10:42:43 i believe we are using the latter right now 10:42:58 as in, getting super duper great at casting a spell totally overrides the armor penalty 10:43:36 if the armor penalty is an independent failure chance you are capped at some percent success even with perfect spell knowledge 10:43:39 hmmm, i'm not sure what the current formula is, i remember it was reworked significantly for 0.6 10:43:47 but yes, the first formula does sound better 10:44:04 don't know either, but the idea is worth to be pinned down somewhere on the wiki, Eronarn 10:46:45 armour adds an independent failure chance of 3*evp - 10*evp, scaling with armour skill? 10:46:51 that'd probably be reasonable 10:47:13 something like that, yes 10:47:24 Q: should Str mitigate EVP, as it does for AEVP? 10:47:27 (I think yes.) 10:47:33 i don't think so 10:47:34 03dolorous * rea84489a4766 10/crawl-ref/source/effects.cc: Allow Zin to protect from Hell effects, dependent on piety. 10:47:55 doy: a heavier armour caster would value Str as much as Int. 10:48:01 dolorous: +1 10:50:12 plz dpeg_ for each time you "+1" you get "-1" in respect :( 10:50:48 rkd: why? :O 10:52:22 it just goes without saying :P 10:53:10 Merfolk tail and transforms overhaul (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2674) by galehar 10:53:23 yay 10:53:40 https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:misc:ac 10:53:41 at the bottom 10:54:08 thank you 10:54:56 dpeg_: i think str should be useful for wearing heavy armor and casting, yes. in fact, i would go so far as to say that if you want to cast in medium armor, +1 str / +1 int should = the same increase in success rates, and heavy armor = +1 str should be more increase 10:55:13 (int affects hunger and power, too, but raw success rates should be heavily str based) 10:56:10 use something like... (11 - min(8, armour/6 + min(4, (str - 12) / 6))) * evp 10:56:13 maybe? 10:56:17 Eronarn: I would be happy if both were obviously useful, not really important how. But see doy! :) 10:56:36 doy: formula describing what? 10:57:01 we should think about what success rate we want armors to drop things to 10:57:17 i think we only need to go down to 90% of normal, or 80%, before players start seriously reconsidering armor 10:57:30 Galehar: this patch is epic! 10:57:34 failing 1/10 or 1/5 of the time casting a spell makes it very unreliable for emergencies 10:57:40 yes 10:58:07 ??gda 10:58:07 gold dragon armour[1/3]: 11 ac -9 ev +fire +cold +pois 110 aum. The best heavy armour around. Don't forget to butcher those golden dragon corpses *without* praying. One is guaranteed on Tiamat (who is not guaranteed). Remember, wearing/removing one is uninterruptible and takes forever! 10:58:13 okay, so the range is 0 to 9 10:58:13 yeah, I've spent a few days on it :) 10:58:20 or wait... crystal is more 10:58:23 ??crystal armor 10:58:24 I don't have a page labeled crystal_armor in my learndb. 10:58:31 ??crystal plate mail 10:58:32 crystal plate mail[1/2]: 14AC, -8EV, 120 aum. The most massive heavy armour. Resists corrosion. It can be generated on D:1 very rarely. Of course, you will splat every time this happens. 10:58:32 Eronarn: no, crystal is -8 10:58:35 oh, okay 10:58:59 is the GDA entry post nerf? 10:59:03 so that would be 27% failure cap for the absolute heaviest armour 10:59:09 i think that's reasonable 10:59:14 Galehar: it is appreciated. Especially since every second win is Mf these days :) 11:00:17 well, now MfTm will rock too :) 11:00:44 alright, then in that case: perhaps absolute armor failure rate = 0% + EVP*10%; then we need to get -90% added to that from say, 27 str + 27 armor skill 11:00:46 !lg * ktyp=winning race=mf s=class 11:00:46 234 games for * (ktyp=winning race=mf): 80x Crusader, 36x Ice Elementalist, 24x Transmuter, 16x Gladiator, 11x Thief, 10x Chaos Knight, 6x Reaver, 5x Wizard, 4x Fire Elementalist, 4x Paladin, 4x Monk, 4x Venom Mage, 3x Berserker, 3x Enchanter, 2x Fighter, 2x Artificer, 2x Necromancer, 2x Assassin, 2x Healer, 2x Conjurer, 2x Priest, 2x Hunter, 1x Earth Elementalist, 1x Summoner, 1x Wanderer, 1x Sta... 11:01:06 doy: in your formula, the Str effect is negligible... up to Str 36, Str does not matter (regardless of armour btw). 11:01:17 dpeg_: how so? 11:01:25 while having ~10-15 str, ~1-5 armor skill make the effect still matter for say a -3 EVP 11:01:31 ...min(4, (Str-12)/6)... 11:01:35 OK, I have to go. 11:01:37 ah, sorry 11:01:40 Maybe I'll come later 11:01:40 doy: my bad 11:01:41 bye 11:01:45 Galehar: see you! 11:01:51 !lg * ktyp=winning race=mf s=class cv=0.7 11:01:52 51 games for * (ktyp=winning race=mf cv=0.7): 26x Crusader, 9x Ice Elementalist, 6x Transmuter, 2x Chaos Knight, 2x Fire Elementalist, 1x Gladiator, 1x Venom Mage, 1x Conjurer, 1x Reaver, 1x Assassin, 1x Monk 11:01:59 -!- Galehar has quit [Quit: home] 11:02:05 been doin the max in my head 11:02:10 (: 11:02:19 Eronarn: yes, that's true, the first few points should matter more 11:02:30 we don't need to get to -90% though 11:02:37 there should be some hard lower cap 11:03:55 i think making the lower cap somewhere between 2-3*evp would make mid-range armours quite a bit more desirable for armoured casters 11:04:00 doy: well, -90% would be for GDA - so armor 27, str 27 to eliminate GDA penalties seems reasonable for me 11:04:29 Eronarn: i know, but i'm saying that i don't think we should be able to eliminate all armour penalty when casting in gda 11:04:43 regardless of armour skill or str 11:05:13 doy: fine with me 11:05:23 hard cap depending on base EVP is okay 11:05:54 one thing we could do here, also: split the formula so that, effectively, there is a min str component and a min armor skill component 11:06:01 if gda always gave at least 27% failure chance when casting, people might be more inclined to choose scale mail or so if they wanted to be casting 11:06:03 and if you satisfy one but not the other 11:06:10 overflow in the one you satisfy only counts to, say, half of the other 11:06:15 Eronarn: that's what i was getting at with my formula 11:06:32 but yeah, it can definitely be improved 11:06:38 ah, it didn't expand well mentally for me 11:06:52 i am only just now having breakfast 11:07:35 (: 11:07:50 one issue here is that characters all start off with some level of str - but, factoring that in can be weird, because str varies so much 11:07:58 03dolorous * r657eb0ae4396 10/crawl-ref/source/xom.cc: Make Xom's !restore abilities effect as rare as his !experience effect. 11:08:17 Eronarn: no reason to 11:08:19 MD can get into what, 30/40 str? 11:08:39 If it is easier for Og than for Vp, no problem 11:08:58 But they'll have less Int, so enjoy a different perspective on casting. 11:09:12 dpeg_: well, the reason is figuring the penalties at start - you don't necessarily want someone who starts with 20 str, but no armor skill, being non-hampered by EV -3 armor 11:09:15 that's a huge balance change 11:09:38 don'T think so 11:10:33 20 Str combos are not renowned for casting prowess and it'll stay like that. 11:10:54 i guess it comes down to, what amount of str/skill should someone have to have to wear -3 or -4 EV armor with no penalties? 11:11:10 because if we use a linear formula, the value for this will be quite low, in terms of XP/level investment 11:11:18 Eronarn: you still need Int and casting skills 11:12:01 oh, definitely - i just worry that it will be too easy to get the mid-range armors wearable for many characters 11:12:32 I would accept that and wait what happens. 11:12:40 though, i guess 3*EVP works on the skill side 11:12:48 as that's 9 armor for -3 EVP armor 11:12:56 the str side is the trickier one 11:13:14 is it a totally independent failure rate, or can very high str make up for no armor skill (vice versa?) 11:13:34 It is quite hard to understand formulas from looking at them (I know from experience). 11:14:23 hm, 3*EVP might actually work as a 'min str' too 11:14:55 if we did a 50% penalty for 'crossover', it'd be... 11:15:25 3 str + 3 armor, or 9 str, for leather armor /w no penalties. 6 str + 6 armor, or 18 str, for ring mail with no penalties 11:15:29 that's actually reasonable 11:16:04 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 11:16:20 Eronarn: yes, looks okay 11:21:22 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 11:26:42 Eronarn: well, i was trying to address that with my formula too - using (str - 12) / 3 for instance 11:26:49 might be more balanced to start 11:26:50 but shrug 11:37:27 head.. spinning... ;D 11:38:38 while it's nice that heavy armour casting is getting better, howabout non-casting heavy armour? I want my mdfi of oka :( 11:38:44 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 11:40:45 rkd: we were discussing nerfs to light armours 11:40:54 this will automatically make your MDFi more attractive 11:40:59 03dolorous * r9923ac143d1b 10/crawl-ref/source/xom.cc: Revert Xom's potion of restore abilities effect entirely. 11:41:27 well yes and no :D 11:42:34 it will look better in relative term towards light armour, not initself. but yea I guess some people have managed to find ways to play MDFi and the like now in a good fashion, tho I'm not one of them :/ 11:44:02 doy: i think either would work; i don't think the range is large enough that it'll make much difference 11:44:05 but we should spreadsheet both 11:44:34 rkd: I believe that old MDFi was overpowered, so that we don't have to go back. 11:44:46 These days, other combos are overpowered, of course. 11:45:59 it was and I agree. tho I feel like the game is saying right now "if you're not worshipping trog you MUST learn spells" 11:47:01 a silly nitpick, but I bet it'd be easy enough to pull of a nemelexite or dd of makh without spells 11:47:44 i don't think it's saying you MUST learn spells 11:47:53 it's just that right now, there's not really any reason not to 11:48:14 this will be addressed once heavy armour becomes not terrible again 11:48:14 (: 11:48:27 yes 11:48:50 the great balancing wheels are turning slowly, but I think we're aware of the most pressing problems. 11:50:26 well I would say that you guys are great at what you do, but you made my 70+ AC MDFi weak so I guess you're only decent at this. :D 11:50:41 hehe 11:51:07 03dolorous * ra05baaa6d95a 10/crawl-ref/source/ (mon-cast.cc xom.cc): Add spacing fixes. 11:51:09 well I've sort of made my first entry vault now yay :D 11:51:10 You have to go with the flow. This is the age of the EV 50 MfCr! 11:51:15 rkd: cool 11:52:36 nah, it's the age of 70ac casters 11:59:01 -!- lorimer_ has joined ##crawl-dev 12:00:04 posted two formulas 12:00:41 -!- lorimer has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:04:07 your 70ac mdfi should be pretty much the same as it used to be 12:04:42 hellfire aside i guess 12:04:43 have fun getting to 70 ac 12:08:04 Eronarn: commented 12:17:19 -!- ortoslon has joined ##crawl-dev 12:26:45 doy: i think it's okay if it's possible to, in some specific armor, totally mitigate the penalty 12:26:52 we should just figure out what the heaviest armor that's possible for is 12:27:09 one idea: for all armors, the maximum armor-success-rate = 100-EVP 12:27:16 so 91% for GDA, 99% for leather 12:29:26 -!- eith has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:36:11 Eronarn: that's a crude formula :) 12:36:53 Eronarn: my suggestion was 2-3*evp 12:37:10 but i guess it depends on how hard it is to get maximum success rate 12:38:02 ?ßrobe 12:38:06 ??robe 12:38:07 robe[1/1]: +2 ac 0 ev light armour 12:38:50 dpeg sometimes it's easy to forget you are german, or in germany, but sometimes there are these little giveaways ;) 12:38:59 heh 12:40:26 doy: well, keep in mind that this would be multiplicative with the normal spell rate, so you really don't need much 12:41:04 if someone had perfect armor skills and perfect spell skills, even a cap at 97% success rate for a -3 EVP armor is noticeable 12:41:17 94% or 91% would be very noticeable 12:41:39 i suppose 12:43:06 ? is in a weird place on the german keyboard 12:50:14 valrus: my ß is my favourite letter! 12:50:23 :D 12:50:33 Heizölrückstoßabdämpfung <--- orgasmic letters 12:50:50 :| 12:51:36 hey I got my smoke trail working! :) 12:54:50 dpeg_: an issue: having Injury Mirror as a free to start would either give a cheap way to victory dance Invo, or, if we disable training Invo for it, inconsistent 12:55:17 dpeg_: we could either slap an initiation cost, ignore the issue or think a bit more 12:55:57 what's the name of the abyss colour? when trying to make a wall or floor in abyss colours? 12:57:26 rkd: there is no "abyss colour" 12:57:29 what are you referring to 12:59:37 you may try "black", but I'm not sure if it will get you this or acidrobin 12:59:57 when something changes colour each turn, have you made like a script for it so that typing "abyss" will enable it, or do you have to write the commando each time, like colour: red, green, yellow, and set it to each turn? 13:00:11 rkd: if you want random colours, use "random" 13:00:17 random 13:00:18 cool 13:00:34 that's not really "abyss colour" though (although i suppose we use it in lugonu-themed vaults) 13:01:35 well abyss entries/exits are in random colours, thus it's abyss colour in my eyes :D 13:03:37 rkd: that's the beautifully named "black" 13:04:23 does both random and black work as colour or only black? 13:04:39 another small question. if I have ' 13:04:42 meh 13:05:13 if I have '*' (good item) on a square. how do I decide the colour of the floor underneath it? 13:05:56 COLOUR: * = random 13:05:58 COLOUR: * = 13:06:17 ah 13:06:18 right 13:06:20 thanks :) 13:06:41 or if you want multiple *s, some coloured some not, KITEM: x = star_item; COLOUR: x = random 13:07:19 thanks :) 13:11:49 hmm kinda hard to visualize how the colours will look when it's ingame tho :S 13:12:59 good thing it's so easy to load it up in-game! 13:13:17 it is? :D 13:13:24 or do I smell sarcasm 13:13:34 just add "PLACE: D:1" to the vault 13:13:42 and it'll always be placed on D:1 13:13:48 ah right smart 13:14:01 or use &L 13:14:55 -!- neunon has joined ##crawl-dev 13:14:58 &L? 13:15:01 re: colouring vaults, it would be nice if there was something like LROCKCOL and LFLOORCOL that only applied to the vault and not the whole level, colouring walls using x=magenta currently also colours the floor beneath the wall magenta too, which looks weird when you dig the walls out 13:18:31 !learn add bad_ideas minivault and branch importer from Dwarf Fortress and Minecraft 13:18:31 bad ideas[2470/2470]: minivault and branch importer from Dwarf Fortress and Minecraft 13:19:11 hmm, my entry_vault is now a wordpad file, can I just change the extension to .des? 13:19:21 or I need some sort of converter program? 13:21:31 uhm, won't wordpad save as a reduced .doc by default? I kind of think you must explicitely tell it to save as text. 13:23:37 well I tried forcing it to save as .des now, just adding the extension when saving myself. will see if it worked or not soon :p 13:24:00 my guess: it won't 13:25:38 it didnt ;D 13:25:50 i used to do all my vaults in wordpad, should be ok 13:25:59 select .txt from the file type dropdown when saving 13:25:59 tho it's for another reason 13:26:01 I guess 13:26:39 syntax error, unexpected COMMA, expecting ITEM_INFO 13:26:52 I have to add info to '*' ? 13:31:03 back 13:31:36 well simplest would be if anyone could just look at my file and see what I have done wrong :) 13:31:52 I could copy/paste it in query or something 13:31:59 kilobyte: let me think about it 13:32:01 rkd: pastebin.com 13:33:42 rkd: link to the file, we'll happily comment 13:34:01 kilobyte: when do you get the Mirror right now? At some piety point? 13:34:24 http://pastebin.com/1x7ui1zK 13:34:32 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 13:35:02 was going to put more stuff in it, just see how to make everything work. 13:35:12 you used to get it at *, my current code has it as *** since it was a free slot and our ability system doesn't allow multiples at the same piety without MAJOR hacks, but then I ran into another problem with descriptions. 13:35:35 kilobyte: hm, may be best to leave that to dolorous 13:35:43 he's also done the ability splitting for Ely 13:35:45 *** description is used for an upgrade from "Animate Remains" to "Animate Dead" 13:36:19 ok, so I'll push my version noting the bugs, it's better to not amass kludges upon kludges 13:36:41 so any reason why it's not working? does it matter where i put the file? portals/branches etc? 13:37:05 rkd: what's the error message you get? 13:37:18 kilobyte: true that 13:37:29 kilobyte: filing is good, I will reply and ask David for help 13:37:44 rkd: no, file is not relevant 13:37:50 rkd: it's possible you can't use , as a glyph 13:38:09 I think I've used it before, but yes, I would start with that, too 13:38:15 You can use ' and _ for example 13:38:23 gonna try changing 13:40:24 you can use any glyph other than ',', '/', '=' and maybe ':' -- but you may need to use KFEAT: ' = floor to disable the previous meaning 13:40:47 yes 13:40:57 invalid branch "d" in spec "d:1" 13:41:00 D 13:41:01 03kilobyte * r9856fdbfc5f8 10/crawl-ref/source/ (11 files): Replace Yred's prayer with an ability. 13:41:27 yay 13:41:29 here we go 13:41:59 rkd: nice 13:42:13 haha when a player worshipping a good god meets mennas, he turns neutral and says the generic 'continue thy quest, mortal!' line. which would be fine except mennas is supposed to be unable to speak :P can that be taken care of? 13:42:46 Mu_: same for apises or phoenixes 13:43:00 or silver stars 13:43:09 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 13:43:36 holy dragons might be capable of speech, but they shouldn't salute either 13:43:38 Mu_: sure, there should be a silent tag 13:44:08 well it works, but I hate the look of downloaded console version compared to the version on putty 13:44:09 :( 13:44:15 forgot about the new holies, haven't played with them yet 13:44:29 dpeg_: his description says he lost his tongue, the silent tag merely checks for silence which isn't permanent for him anymore 13:44:55 Mu_: we just need to make a set of messages -- and maybe link them from the code 13:44:57 rkd: don't worry 13:45:03 it should check for M_SPEAKS, shoudln't it? 13:45:08 does mennas have that? 13:45:32 yes, he does 13:45:32 dpeg_ well it's hard to say if it looks good or not when everything looks bad ;D 13:45:37 he probably shouldn't 13:45:40 feels like I'm playing adom when I look at this :S 13:45:48 !tell due Mennas, apises and phoenixes use the generic "continue they quest" greeting. Is it hard to implement specific greetings? E.g. "respectsfully lowers head" or whatever? 13:45:49 dpeg_: OK, I'll let due know. 13:45:50 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 13:45:53 he has speech but it's all gestures and such 13:46:55 like he could smile and wave you onwards if you're worshipping good :P 13:47:31 rkd, dpeg: I found a problem with Windows console while doing the Unicode overhaul: in its default mode, it turns everything not in the system's "code page" into invalid characters. That could be either worked around by using only a limited set of glyphs, or drawing the text ourselves. 13:47:47 ie, it would look like putty 13:48:23 but wouldn't use the actual console, except for cygwin 13:48:36 is that a good idea? 13:49:21 -!- st_ has quit [] 13:51:00 kilobyte: best idea is to drop windows support. 13:51:16 heh 13:51:43 is there any other option besides using the windows console? 13:51:50 "We will pick up windows support as soon as those Redmond fuckers get their gear together, which will be about 2820." 13:51:50 dpeg_: stop it i have weak heart! 13:52:06 Wensley: cygwin + rxvt 13:52:34 man did I get discouraged watching my beautiful vault in such an ugly fashion :( 13:52:39 what are the disadvantages of using those rather than the console on windows? 13:52:42 Wensley: my idea is basically the same, except for doing that in Crawl's proper for better control 13:53:01 Wensley: it'd be nice for it to work out of the box 13:53:06 ah you're talking about the console version 13:53:09 * ortoslon wipes cold sweat 13:53:23 rxvt isn't that great -- okish on Unix, bad on Cygwin 13:53:48 yeah, it's better than the windows console (i use it on windows), but that's not really hard, or meaningful 13:53:49 in theory you could run cygwin+sshd+putty, but that's a Ruby Goldberg solution 13:53:50 windows user play tiles anyway :) 13:53:53 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 13:53:54 rkd: your vault will be fine in console 13:54:02 galehar: hi, welcome back 13:54:09 hey 13:54:16 No comments on the AC c-r-d mail, I am surprised. 13:54:18 galehar: big thanks for that massive merfolk patch! 13:54:36 your welcome 13:54:40 you looked at it? 13:55:02 reviewing it right as we speak 13:55:26 for saving you.fishtail, it's better to use a minor save tag rather than major 13:55:56 ok 13:56:26 already fixed that 13:56:47 you let me know if I broke other stuff 14:00:07 heh I liked how the first thought that came to my mind when I saw my vault ingame was: wtf why didnt no_monster_gen work?!... oh wait shapeshifters, they change shape don't they? :D 14:00:35 convert crawl to dos graphics mode 14:00:38 who needs anything better anyway 14:02:26 -!- ortoslon has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:03:03 kilobyte: did you use 'ap' or 'aP' for your commit? 14:03:44 galehar: mmm, porkalator when levitating over water melds your ring of lev, making you drown 14:03:49 possibly a very stupid question: would it be infeasible to package the windows distribution with installers for cygwin and rxvt? looks like they're both GPL, and I understood that people were pushing for crawl to be licensed similarly 14:04:08 Wensley: that'd be pretty terrible 14:04:20 right, but would it be worse than using the console? 14:04:22 no real desire to start debugging cygwin for people 14:04:36 kilobyte: ok, I'll look into it 14:04:37 dpeg_: a normal divine ability like all the others -- at least for Yred, Injury Mirror doesn't stand apart from the others 14:05:02 alright, I can drop the idea of making the ability letter special 14:05:14 galehar: well, but looking at the similar logic in your patch, it seems intentional 14:05:22 galehar: since you made spider form drown 14:05:55 yes, but you can't cast it 14:06:13 can anyone /msg me and give me a rundown of the various message delivery options (mpr, mprf, take_note, etc.)? 14:06:13 dpeg_: say a word and I'll special-case it, I didn't feel like doing that since the behaviour in absence of any special code looked good to me 14:07:46 03raphael.langella * r9ad9d9ef6e0d 10/crawl-ref/source/ (16 files): Merfolk tail and transforms overhaul 14:07:50 03kilobyte * rcceb27ce1f98 10/crawl-ref/source/ (tag-version.h tags.cc): Use a minor version tag for storing you.fishtail 14:08:43 dpeg_: I didn't do Ely yet -- should I do that except for the messaging, or leave it to dolorous and do other things? 14:14:02 -!- rkd has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:14:07 kilobyte: just send a long mail to c-r-d 14:14:14 please comment there if y0ou think that's good 14:14:18 I also called for dolorous 14:14:52 I believe that dolorous is very good with all the aspects of flavour and a/p has lots of it. 14:14:56 about being porkalated while levitating, I didn't change anything that was already deadly 14:15:08 Plus he has attacked the ability code for Ely already. 14:15:18 but preventing this needs a lot of logic, as we need to check the source of the levitation 14:16:11 kilobyte: what do you think of the armour enchantment cap idea? Wanted to ask you back then, but you weren't around. 14:19:16 sounds good, but it won't have that big an effect 14:19:30 I am fine with many small steps. 14:19:46 even at +8, it's the equivalent of just a single good randart less 14:20:06 I have been wondering whether we should stop using numerical randart properties. 14:20:20 -!- TGWi has joined ##crawl-dev 14:20:26 But this is unrelatd 14:21:01 -!- Wensley_ has joined ##crawl-dev 14:22:02 -!- Wensley has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:22:09 -!- Wensley_ is now known as Wensley 14:22:53 we could have add some other goodies instead 14:23:18 like, a flag that makes the armour in question intefere with spellcasting less 14:23:53 wait, wait... that's just the existing "elven" thing that can't currently spawn on randarts 14:24:01 randart weapons should sometimes get two brands 14:24:13 no, randart weapons should have more unique brands 14:24:13 kilobyte: but I agree, the randart properties should be qualitative, not numerical 14:24:30 unique brands is a good idea 14:24:34 Using a ring of Str+5 is okay. 14:24:46 Having AC+4 on a randart not so much. 14:25:03 a weapon randart? 14:25:11 because those can have AC+5 as a normal brand 14:25:22 that is okay 14:25:25 randarts of protection are ok 14:25:51 I am speaking of the "AC+4 EV+3 Dam+2" kind of thing 14:26:17 they could have one numerical bonus at most i suppose 14:26:38 A milder proposal would be to boost the pure items (rings of Str/Dex/AC etc.) and to make the numbers on randarts smaller. 14:26:45 upsy: or that, yes 14:27:32 what about a cap on the total # you can get on randarts? like the numbers can't add up to more than 6 14:27:43 possibly with weights for e.g. damage 14:28:31 I don't see an issue, but limiting it to changing only one stat is good 14:28:55 TGWi: the issue is that you can get very good AC/EV values on behalf of randarts only. 14:29:01 forcing it to only give like +3 str +2 int blah blah blah only make it less interesting, no? 14:29:07 So much that it dominates the skills, which is pretty bad. 14:29:38 EV boni could be removed from randart generation for dex 14:29:48 TGWi: but that's hacking 14:29:51 and just on stuff like brooch, shaolin, etc 14:30:13 well, I mean, they're somewhat redundant 14:30:21 and dex is better if you have any dodging 14:30:40 was just a thought, I don't have a plan (as you can see :) 14:30:50 TGWi: I kind of agree that smaller numbers would be boring. It's better to have fewer bigger numbers. 14:31:15 TGWi: +EV is better than +Dex even with 27 skill 14:31:26 kilobyte: well, Dex should do more than EV, of course 14:31:30 kilobyte: depends on your current dex, yeah? 14:32:06 if you're already into the stepdown maybe EV is better, but dex 14 -> 20 is more than EV+6 I think 14:32:30 could be wrong 14:33:10 Dex 18: +5 dex goes 33 -> 36, +5 ev 33 -> 38 14:33:28 hmph 14:33:38 maybe I shouldn't play kobolds exclusively 14:33:48 Dex 14: +5 goes 30 -> 33 14:33:49 :) 14:33:59 this is a mf, lemme check a kobold 14:34:25 !learn add TGWi Is a kobold, or at least shares blood with kobolds. Speaks affectionely of his kobold granny. 14:34:25 tgwi[2/2]: Is a kobold, or at least shares blood with kobolds. Speaks affectionely of his kobold granny. 14:34:44 +5 Dex gives +4 EV both from Dex 14 and from Dex 18 14:34:53 dpeg_: <3 14:35:07 !learn add tgw swapme 14:35:08 tgw[6/6]: swapme 14:35:17 !learn swap tgwi[2] tgw[6] 14:35:17 Swapped tgwi[2] with tgw[6]. 14:35:22 I don't think that Dex does enough right now, but it will do more in the future, and then question of EV vs Dex will hopefully become more interesting. 14:35:22 !learn del tgwi[2] 14:35:22 Deleted tgwi[2/2]: swapme 14:35:30 -!- rkd has joined ##crawl-dev 14:35:46 ??tgw 14:35:46 tgw[1/6]: < TGW> ero: they're too big to effectively use sbl < TGW> spriggans are even smaller < TGW> and they can't effectively use sbl 14:36:20 Another option: cut AC/EV properties (apart from Robustness/Shaolin perhaps). 14:36:26 and warding! 14:36:34 yes 14:36:39 unrandarts are okay 14:36:40 ermph, shielding 14:36:54 kilobyte: I learned from you that randarts mess up the AC/EV system. 14:36:58 TGWi: whatever :) 14:37:16 hihi now I know how to make flame clouds! 14:37:17 what's your stance on normal +AC rings? 14:37:27 unsure 14:37:34 i think they're fine 14:37:40 you do lose a ring slot, after all 14:37:42 they take up the slot giving just one thing 14:37:49 of course they're much better than randart AC/EV bonuses 14:38:10 eh shouldnt it be much "worse"? 14:38:29 rkd: no, because randarts will have other bonuses 14:38:30 welcome to english 14:38:40 dpeg_: I might be swayed by going from 28 base EV to 65 by randarts though, I did not do a thorough research beyond looking at a few win morgues 14:38:44 rkd: player vs designer thinking? :) 14:38:46 where things are ambiguous for no reason 14:38:56 a ring of +5 ac is fine, a ring of +5 ac, rf+, ins, +lev is not so much 14:39:12 then maybe there's a problem with randarts in general 14:39:15 imo 14:39:16 another thing that bugs me: rings with like three different evocations 14:39:18 kilobyte: huh? I thought you already were convinced that randarts are problematic in this regard?! 14:39:35 TGWi: yes, but we've started cutting on this 14:40:05 dpeg_: either way, player1 or player2 still player always wins ;) 14:40:07 are those limited from being extra properties now? 14:42:03 well, the more effects a randart has, if it also gets AC/EV it should scale accordingly. so if it has 3-4 effects aside from AC or EV it should perhaps only be able to get +1 AC 14:42:28 but +1 AC is uninteresting 14:42:39 rkd: I see where you are coming from, but I don't like this kind of averaging things (purely a matter of taste, though). 14:42:40 dpeg_: I mean, I reviewed a bunch of morgues, enough to know they are indeed problematic. What I don't know is if a vast majority of wins have them. 14:42:56 better to give randarts fewer bigger properties than a big, boring jumble 14:43:12 TGWi: yes 14:43:14 or just remove +AC/EV from randarts? aside from AC/EV rings getting randart property :S 14:43:28 should lessen the numbers of +AC/EV gear 14:44:48 maybe only allow them if it's from the base item 14:44:59 as in if the base is a ring of protection etc 14:45:17 that would be reasonable 14:45:31 and just don't weight things any differently at all 14:45:58 evokables too, perhaps 14:46:18 heh.. when I say it it's completely ignored, when someone else says the exact same thing 1 min later, its win! :D anyway bbl 14:46:42 syllogism: yes, thought of that too 14:46:50 I don't see the evokations being an issue 14:46:50 i wonder if blue_anna's charm ability would work better as a generic "jewellery randart" brand 14:46:54 Guess I'll have to set up a page with the various ideas tonight. 14:46:54 rather than a fixedart 14:47:07 doy: yes, possibly 14:47:23 would also be okay to skew randart properties, btw 14:47:25 having more unique brands for randarts would help a *lot* 14:47:29 :) 14:47:30 in making them more differentiated 14:47:49 it would also make it more of a tradeoff if you wanted to use them or not 14:48:05 if you wouldn't necessarily get the basics from randarts, like resistances or so 14:51:27 or simply less so 14:52:19 screw this, I'm removing +AC/+EV but not +Str (yet?) for now. Let's talk about replacements. 14:52:22 is that ok? 14:53:59 i'd say yes 14:55:48 yes 14:56:16 the code relies on five properties: AC/EV/Str/Dex/Int right now, adding more of those when the randart has too little 14:56:21 so that might need to be changed 14:56:49 03kilobyte * rd02256b2ad33 10/crawl-ref/source/artefact.cc: Remove +AC/+EV from randarts. Fixedarts still keep them. 14:57:45 I'll go through the last 20 wins and sum up the bonuses. 14:57:48 ok I think I have some changes ready to be made into my first patch. can anyone help me do what I need to do with git so I can make them into a patch and not squash them? 14:58:38 -!- Wensley has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:59:02 git commit -a 14:59:08 git format-patch -1 15:00:19 also, read the patch_guide.txt in the developer doc :) 15:00:49 yeah I did... I think it assumes some knowledge of git that I don't have 15:00:58 which is basically anything 15:01:35 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 15:03:16 read the git stuff on the dev wiki 15:03:24 w 32 15:03:29 EV+7 AC+6 | EV+12 | EV+10 AC+8 | EV+11 | EV+16 | EV+7 AC+4 | EV+8 AC+4 | 0 (good resists and slaying, though) | AC+6 15:03:35 that's the first 10 15:03:48 holy cow... I _under_estimated the effect 15:04:25 are any of those base 'of protection' or 'of evasion' items? 15:05:15 just artefacts, I did not count proper rings of protection (but did count one Shaolin and one Brooch of Shielding) 15:05:39 * dpeg_ <3 these kinds of nerfs. 15:05:46 They make me all warm and fuzzy inside. 15:05:51 well, i mean, were any of the randarts base 'ring of protection' items or anything? 15:06:01 it's a pretty thorough one, though 15:06:04 I genuinely believe we are turning back the power spiral with stuff like this. 15:06:17 doy: not among those I listed 15:06:19 kilobyte: also pretty ad hoc :) 15:07:00 what is a "commit message?" 15:07:14 oh 15:07:14 nm 15:07:15 sorry 15:07:17 The stuff that shows up on the log. 15:10:35 kilobyte: we might want to increase the effects of skills or react in some other way 15:10:42 but perhaps not 15:12:47 well, this is a thorough nerf mostly to dodging/casting chars 15:13:13 since if you can get good protection without sacrificing spellcasting, you don't want armour 15:14:30 falling in water noise (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2675) by galehar 15:14:56 kilobyte: we need a nerf for those 15:15:02 -!- neunon has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:16:00 kilobyte: you put the minorVersion check in a #if TAG_MAJOR_VERSION > 31 15:16:01 but the more essential reason is that end-game viability should not come from luck/persistence in the randart lottery. 15:16:08 shouldn't it be == 31 ? 15:16:24 Skills should dominate, not items. 15:18:11 galehar: uh oh, that's a nasty one 15:18:23 03kilobyte * r2068278473b9 10/crawl-ref/source/tags.cc: Fix loading of saves (uh oh!) 15:18:47 how can I figure out which revision I was working from when patching? 15:19:11 grep CRAWL_VERSION_LONG build.h 15:19:27 thanks :) 15:20:34 valrus: git describe 15:20:56 build.h is updated only after actually building 15:21:19 both will show the version after your patching, though 15:21:21 will these be accurate if I already did a local commit? 15:21:48 0.8 will go down in history as the "unwinnable version". :) 15:21:50 no, for that you want sf/master 15:22:07 like "git describe sf/master" or "git log sf/master" 15:22:28 and that's the one I want to list when submitting the patch, yes? 15:22:51 valrus: if you've already committed, the commit it's based on will be part of the patch 15:22:57 so it doesn't matter 15:23:00 or if your branch is divergent and you did a fetch afterwards: git describe `git merge-base HEAD sf/master` 15:23:11 none of this is important 15:23:16 but if you don't know what I'm talking about, you don't need that 15:23:19 just commit the patch, do git format-patch -1 15:23:20 ok 15:23:27 and the patch will know what commit it's based on 15:23:27 have done those 15:23:37 all right 15:24:27 doy: I don't see the base version anywhere in git format-patch output 15:24:33 hmmm, maybe it won't 15:24:36 shrug 15:25:09 dpeg_: let's boost armour to swing the pendulum the other way 15:25:20 let's not just arbitrarily boost armour 15:25:29 it will either stop or start going upwards in circles :p 15:25:36 -!- lorimer has joined ##crawl-dev 15:25:49 we should probably boost gdr 15:25:52 !seen syllogism 15:25:52 I last saw syllogism at Mon Oct 4 19:46:50 2010 UTC (39m 2s ago) saying I dont see the evokations being an issue on ##crawl-dev. 15:26:20 Does gdr apply to more than melee already? It should. 15:26:23 we should probably boost gdr, but we should probably do a bit of analysis of the formulas we're currently using first 15:26:35 doy: yes, and that's tough. 15:26:38 fsim 15:27:02 continually tweaking the formulas blindly isn't really a good solution 15:27:40 dpeg_: oooh, now you're talking 15:28:27 thanks for the help guys :D 15:28:28 doy: blindly? 15:28:49 I stared at those formulas for very long, but there's only so much you gain from that. 15:28:55 (: 15:28:57 was it gdr that was boosted a bit for 0.7? 15:28:59 So it was blindly, in a sense. 15:29:02 not saying the 0.6 stuff was blindly 15:29:03 upsy: yes 15:29:11 doy: in hindsight, it almost was. 15:29:11 -!- lorimer_ has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:29:16 but just going in and saying "armour is too weak, we should make it better" certainly is 15:29:22 valrus: cool! 15:29:29 doy: well, that's only the grand plan. 15:29:35 New Xom effect: coloured smoke trail behind player (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2676) by valrus 15:29:38 Someone's gotta spell that out, and kilobyte did. 15:29:59 doy: or rather, the former part _is_ true, so just the latter needs discussion 15:30:30 kilobyte: sure 15:30:41 -!- valrus is now known as valrus_out 15:30:57 actually, I'm wrong. Nerfing EV could be another answer :p 15:31:15 just saying, i don't want the randart nerf to pressure us into making a suboptimal fix for armour 15:31:30 imo more things should go "floosh" 15:31:41 but my commit 12 minutes ago just did that, by 8-10 EV for those wins listed 15:32:03 doy: I agree about the "suboptimal" part 15:32:15 kilobyte: see the base AC enchantment cap idea :) 15:32:28 tgw: are you talking about my patch? 15:32:43 it is certain 15:33:06 so, what do you mean? 15:34:14 nothing serious 15:34:23 ok 15:35:23 I'm not a native speaker, so I'm not sure floosh is a good onomatopoeia 15:35:51 or if there are funny double meanings... 15:36:52 dpeg_: same, it's similar in effect to the randart nerf 15:38:03 -!- Giomancer has quit [Quit: If your not living on the edge, you're taking up too much space] 15:38:12 dpeg_: shall we put a big sign about relicensing in the relevant places? 15:43:03 dpeg_: may I add it to license.txt and the dev blog? 15:46:58 !learn add bad_ideas add a dex based ability called leap to jump over a square. 15:46:58 bad ideas[2471/2471]: add a dex based ability called leap to jump over a square. 15:47:46 !lear add bad_ideas and for certain backgrounds, you can jump 2,1 squares only! 15:47:51 !learn add bad_ideas and for certain backgrounds, you can jump 2,1 squares only! 15:47:52 bad ideas[2472/2472]: and for certain backgrounds, you can jump 2,1 squares only! 15:48:08 !learn add bad_ideas if you make a perfect roll on your dex check when leaping you can fire in mid-air for free. 15:48:08 bad ideas[2473/2473]: if you make a perfect roll on your dex check when leaping you can fire in mid-air for free. 15:48:32 !learn add bad_ideas bring back the hand crossbow and allow dual wielding them. 15:48:32 bad ideas[2474/2474]: bring back the hand crossbow and allow dual wielding them. 15:49:16 -!- syllogism has quit [] 15:49:42 -!- Cryp71c has left ##crawl-dev 15:50:24 but that's a good idea 15:50:40 which one? 15:50:53 the leap? 15:51:18 damage bonus for holding hand crossbows sideways 15:53:30 !learn bad_ideas playable frogs 15:53:30 I don't know about !learn bad_ideas. 15:53:35 !learn add bad_ideas playable frogs 15:53:36 bad ideas[2475/2475]: playable frogs 15:54:08 !learn add bad_ideas ribbit's kiss should turn you into a frog 15:54:08 bad ideas[2476/2476]: ribbit's kiss should turn you into a frog 15:56:00 -!- TGWi has left ##crawl-dev 16:25:22 sorry, back now 16:25:38 kilobyte: yes to mentioning licensing everywhere 16:25:52 I once came up with a rgrm proposal, we can dig that up again. 16:26:30 kilobyte: I still like the body armour enchantment cap, because it will detract from RoR 16:27:48 What do you think of the noun-verb (i.e. inventory->item->action) patch? jpeg supports using it. 16:27:50 -!- blackpenguin has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:29:10 RoR is very rare now, I never really get them anymore 16:29:43 usually only get them in zigs :P 16:30:45 st_: as common as always 16:30:56 !seen kilobyte 16:30:56 I last saw kilobyte at Mon Oct 4 20:47:51 2010 UTC (43m 5s ago) saying !learn add bad_ideas and for certain backgrounds, you can jump 2,1 squares only! on ##crawl-dev. 16:31:03 it was reduced by by 16:31:03 the Knight :) 16:31:07 ah 16:32:27 dpeg_: the idea isn't bad, of course 16:34:09 we could make it possible to go for enchantments of like +10 on CPM 16:34:21 (needs tweaking the formula for enchantment chances) 16:34:38 with a literal reading, that's +14 16:35:01 i think that's probably fine 16:35:10 yes, but you wouldn't get that with the current slim chances of higher ?EA setting in 16:35:14 right 16:35:31 normal games wouldn't even get 14 ?EA anyway 16:35:32 And I think they could... lowly robe users would be out of the game anyway :) 16:35:40 doy: sure? 16:35:50 you get CPM about as rarely as ready GDA... and there are no crystal dragons to skin 16:35:51 I think you can expect more than a dozen in a 3-runer. 16:35:58 kilobyte: yes, that is sad. 16:36:07 CPM => iron dragon armor 16:36:13 boo! :) 16:36:19 dpeg: i wouldn't consider it to be rare to get 14 in a 3-runer 16:36:26 but i'd put the average at more around 12 16:36:26 there's a power spiral, but there's also a complexity spiral 16:36:37 sorear: explain, please 16:36:50 people pretty rarely talk about simplifying changes 16:37:21 I have a gut feeling the game is getting harder to balance over the last couple years because of the quadraticly increasing number of interactions 16:38:59 sorear: not sure I agree 16:39:37 There is a complexity spiral, sure. But I think we're willing to remove stuff, aren't we? 16:40:34 okawaru! 16:40:36 zin! 16:40:38 :) 16:40:48 halflings! 16:41:02 Of course the new gods are fuller than Okawaru, but that is orthogonal to, say, combat. 16:41:07 This is good complexity. 16:41:17 The combat system has been a mess since we have inherited it. 16:41:27 Do you think we made that worse? 16:42:59 sorear: does reducing aptitude granularity and promoting gfr from unnoticeable (=needless complexity!) count? 16:43:08 gdr 16:43:14 I am typing in the dark. 16:43:34 -!- blackpenguin has joined ##crawl-dev 16:43:43 -!- dpeg_ has quit [Quit: dpeg is enough] 16:45:38 I just noticed the spell noise is displayed in the II page 16:45:48 and it messes it up 16:45:58 should I fix it or remove it? 16:45:58 galehar: since when is that? 16:46:04 It has no business being there. 16:46:08 -!- TGWi has joined ##crawl-dev 16:46:18 Spell noise should go into the spell description, since it is static information. 16:46:27 ok 16:46:32 it was in my original patch 16:46:37 :) 16:46:41 but I didn't noticed, and nobody else 16:46:58 dpeg: could you check the wording on http://sprunge.us/ITPK ? 16:46:59 could range, as well? 16:46:59 galehar: I think I mentioned spell descriptions at some point, but that was probably in some wall of words and easy to miss. 16:47:06 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 16:47:11 it changes for flame tongue and not much else 16:47:16 TGWi: good point 16:47:16 I guess Vehumet 16:47:18 perhaps 16:47:28 and lightning 16:47:34 -!- neunon has joined ##crawl-dev 16:47:37 It is slightly more interesting tactically than noise, so I'd leave it for now. 16:47:39 well, I didn't intend to add it to the II screen 16:47:40 neunon: are you alive? 16:47:44 to much copy/pasting :) 16:48:04 dpeg: the other thing is that you can check range really easily 16:48:04 am for now 16:48:06 what's up? 16:48:14 h'lo neunon 16:48:21 neunon: just wondering how you're doing :) 16:48:44 -!- Morg0th has joined ##crawl-dev 16:48:45 TGWi: yes, but (new) players being able to compare ranges very easily is good. 16:48:52 tolerably. having really bad sleep issues, but other than that I'm doing alright. 16:49:01 dpeg: oh, that's true 16:49:33 neunon: too much work? 16:49:56 kilobyte: did you change anything apart from the new header? 16:50:33 dpeg: no, it's an as-of-yet untreated sleep disorder (ideopathic hypersomnia). been trying Nuvigil, which is worthless and has terrible side effects. next one to try is... ritalin. *_* 16:50:34 dpeg: just added the header 16:50:48 kilobyte: header is very good 16:50:56 neunon: sounds terrible 16:51:16 dpeg: it's been killing my academic record for years, heh. 16:51:21 neunon: guess looking at make files won't make you sleep soundly? 16:51:35 dpeg: I'd love to have something productive to do! 16:51:46 one other thing, could II be condensed into one screen? some of the fields seem to have way more room than they need, particularly name 16:51:55 neunon: btw, we're just trying to relicense Crawl. Do you have experience with endeavours like that? 16:52:23 TGWi: if you come up with a proposal (make mock up screen on the wiki), that'd be awesome 16:52:36 sure thing 16:52:41 -!- Morg0th has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:52:55 dpeg: well, not really. in past open source projects I've had, it was simply me developing it. so I was able to get away with relicensing on-the-spot without asking anyone for their permission. what sort of license are you hoping for? 16:53:00 is putting misc non-demon stuff in random pan vaults ok? 16:53:03 GPL2+ 16:53:16 but we will definitely not be able to reach all important former developers 16:53:16 neunon: Linley Henzell chose GPL. 16:53:39 you're going from GPLv2 to GPLv2+? 16:53:45 no 16:53:45 neunon: and while there are people who would prefer something else, GPL is acceptable for everyone asked so far 16:54:00 neunon: no, Crawl has never been GPLed 16:54:05 as far as I understand, we suffer from our license being nothing 16:54:13 Oh. 16:54:17 no, it's not "nothing" 16:54:20 neunon: it's an ancient license that is not compatible with anything except itself 16:54:23 right 16:54:29 It doesn't hold water, but it strives to emulate GPL. Or so. 16:54:31 nethack license, basically 16:54:38 yeah, effectively gpl v0 16:54:41 neunon: we even violate the license by including Mersenne's Twister 16:54:47 One more reason to crucify the Nethack guys :) 16:55:03 remove the spell noise from the II screen (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2677) by galehar 16:55:03 well, personally, I'd go with the MIT, BSD, or X11 license. almost no restrictions, basically. my beef with the GPL is that it's actually too restrictive, IMO. 16:55:19 ahem 16:55:20 it's the license Bison had for half a year before GPLv1 was devised 16:55:27 bhaak: not the forkers 16:55:42 neunon: i agree! 16:55:50 but others don't seem to 16:55:51 (: 16:55:52 doy: woo! 16:55:56 boo. 16:55:56 oh no, we will discuss again what license to adopt 16:56:01 hehe 16:56:19 officially we're stuck 16:56:29 (unless we rewrite all code provided by Brent Ross) 16:56:37 I'd say that if you have to go GPL, go GPLv2-only. v3 is eeeeevil 16:56:42 my only-allowed-to-fork-when-nude license was ignored :-( 16:56:43 neunon: why? 16:56:46 i also agree! 16:56:56 moment, let me find you a handy dandy resource for this 16:57:06 bhaak: ignored by whom? 16:57:08 neunon: v3 is too complex, but it fixes some bugs 16:57:20 neunon: or rather, disambiguates them 16:57:26 * dpeg hates law-speech with a passion. 16:57:39 kilobyte: it also adds new misfeatures, which is the issue 16:57:52 It's a sign of decline these types are multiplying so fast. 16:58:00 the new misfeature is allowing the Affero junk, which is indeed bad 16:58:07 this was from when the GPLv3 was being developed, but it still applies and it covers the basics of why I avoid it: http://www.linux-watch.com/news/NS5561540450.html 16:58:37 dpeg: by everybody. probably because of the 'have-to-post-pictures-online-to-proof' clause :) 16:59:14 "potentially jeopardize the entire patent portfolio of a company simply by the act of placing a GPLv3 licensed programme on their website" 16:59:21 that's a big UPSIDE 17:00:18 not one that affects us, but still 17:00:20 when was brent last spotted? 17:00:47 surprise, surprise. the gpl licenses are political in nature 17:01:08 kilobyte: not sure how i see it being an upside 17:01:13 bhaak: hence why i prefer bsd 17:01:15 (: 17:01:16 TGWi: shortly after release of DCSS 17:01:23 in general, GPLv3 has an upside of disambiguating the source issue and a downside of allowing Affero. 17:01:25 is this FSF actually still alive? 17:01:27 the way the Linux kernel devs do things these days is actually require that any code added be GPLv2 licensed, but they also allow developers to dual-license as BSD, GPLv3, or whatever 17:01:37 dpeg: yes, alive and kicking 17:02:05 heck, I donate to them yearly 17:02:07 even kicking asses 17:02:12 dpeg: yes, the fsf writes a good portion of the core linux tools (the ones that most people use anyway) 17:02:48 Stillman gave a talk in Toronto last year. Certain folks were confusing him with Jesus, I found (combined with a completely wrong approach to how to deal with messiahs, by the way). 17:02:49 doy: yes and the bsd licenses have the advantage of being short and understandable. 17:03:27 * bhaak thinks dpeg is working towards a crucification joke 17:04:02 would need a very stable cross for heavy-weight messiahs 17:04:13 BSD is counterproductive, pretty badly 17:04:22 gpl is counterproductive, pretty badly 17:04:28 (hit: depends on what you consider productive) 17:04:29 it's helping the likes of Apple screw you over 17:04:32 *hint 17:09:09 screw me over how? 17:09:09 oh and one thing I really dislike about the GPL is the whole notion of GPLv2-compatibility. license compatibility isn't specific to the GPL, but the GPL has so many clauses in it that it's hard to find things that are actually compatible. for instance, Sun Microsystems created the ZFS filesystem, but it can never be included in the Linux kernel because its license, the CDDL, isn't compatible with the GPL. With a MIT/BSD/X11-style license, this pro 17:09:09 blem doesn't happen. 17:09:09 * dpeg understands the concept of public domain. 17:09:09 (ooh, Xchat does line splitting, neat) 17:09:09 you put lots of your effort into ensuring that in the future you will have to pay for fruits of your work 17:09:10 why will i have to pay for it? 17:09:10 * due refers MIT/BSD/X11-style licenses over GPL, but whatever. 17:09:10 neunon: CDDL was _designed_ to be incompatible 17:09:10 i can still use the software i wrote for free 17:09:10 Possibly, yes 17:09:10 but FreeBSD and other BSDs have begun developing (or already have) ZFS thanks to their license choice. 17:09:10 bhaak: there are so many people writing licenses, and so many more people reading them. I am afraid I'd run out of crosses. 17:09:10 if apple wants to take my software and make it better and charge for it, more power to them 17:09:10 doesn't hurt me any 17:09:10 is there an anarchy license, that refuses to make any claims whatsoever? 17:09:10 To get back on track, how long should we wait after announcing our plans to change Crawl's license and not hearing from Brent? 17:09:11 dpeg: not all license writer are religious leaders 17:09:11 Are we going to start rewriting code? 17:09:11 doy: it means people will use their version not yours, so they won't contribute their patches/bug reports/etc to you 17:09:11 no way, I'd think 17:09:11 bhaak: better safe than sorry 17:09:11 bhaak: I learned this from the inquisition. 17:09:11 kilobyte: depends on which people you're talking about 17:09:11 due: hi! 17:09:11 due: I like greensnark's cavalier approach 17:09:11 kilobyte: I don't believe that contribution should be mandatory. Most people _want_ their chances included upstream and will submit them. 17:09:11 kilobyte: Which was? 17:09:14 due: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 17:09:29 !messages 17:09:29 (1/1) dpeg_ said (3h 23m 40s ago): Mennas, apises and phoenixes use the generic "continue they quest" greeting. Is it hard to implement specific greetings? E.g. "respectsfully lowers head" or whatever? 17:09:46 dpeg: Shouldn't be hard at all, I just haven't done it yet. 17:09:55 "Mennas sports a cheerful thumbs up." 17:10:42 ... I'm putting that in. 17:10:42 Don't make me sad :) 17:10:42 that's awesome. 17:10:42 It's going in. 17:10:42 due: cheating about Brent Ross by assuming he either cares about Crawl or doesn't care at all 17:10:42 I'm sorry, it's your own fault. 17:10:42 * dpeg will never be happy again. 17:10:42 due: and accepting the consequences if not 17:10:48 * neunon cheers due on, sporting a cheerful thumbs up. 17:11:00 due: which for us would mean mostly a speedy rewrite of affected part 17:11:25 kilobyte: can it still be traced back what's Brent's code? 17:11:45 -!- galehar has quit [Quit: bedtime] 17:11:47 due: ok, you get the silly greeting but we get the body armour enchantment cap? (y/y) 17:11:50 but then, there's only around 7% of the code that predates DCSS -- somewhat more if you include reformatting which can't be automatically traced 17:11:57 * dpeg was raised dialectically. 17:12:02 Body armour enchantment cap? 17:12:09 due: see c-r-d email. 17:12:15 I haven't read any email yet 17:12:20 It''s TUESDAY. 17:12:29 not here :) 17:12:32 neunon: people maybe, companies no way. 17:12:36 Can only increase a body armour's enchantment up to base AC 17:12:44 e.g. robe up to +2 17:12:48 neunon: for big examples, look at wine 17:12:55 dpeg: your clocks need readjustment 17:13:16 bhaak: Monday c.t. 17:13:17 kilobyte: true, but the developers of wine _are_ the company developing Cedega/Crossover. 17:13:34 kilobyte: and people who attempt to monopolize on crawl are deluded ;) 17:13:35 neunon: ... 17:14:01 neunon: there's pretty much a hostile relation between wine devs and Cedega 17:14:17 kilobyte: crossover, then. cedega's fairly dead, anyway. 17:14:20 neunon: that was a reason for that big relicensing from BSD 17:15:06 kilobyte: who cares about cedega, though? I mean, wine has far surpassed cedega. things that used to -only- run under cedega now run perfectly under wine, and most new things don't even run under cedega anymore. so *shrug* 17:17:14 The only time when I was afraid about legalities in conjunction with Crawl was when someone told me that SF owns our code or something. 17:17:32 (which is pretty much the opposite of the "people will just use the proprietary version then" argument) 17:17:32 Er. 17:17:46 But then I realised that if they decide to do _something_ with 0.6 (or whatever version) we release new versions and they can fuck it. 17:17:51 SF claim code? 17:18:03 I'm not aware of this either 17:18:07 no idea what that was about, but someone was against SF for that reasons 17:18:20 Well, SF sucks anyway, but I don't believe they claim code. 17:18:23 I tried to read their legal blurb, but didn't manage, as ever 17:18:25 i think there was some change to the terms of service or something at one point 17:18:31 don't remember the details 17:18:33 At least, I haven't heard screams of rage much about them recently. 17:18:35 (brb a few. just woke up at 2:30PM and I should become presentable) 17:18:39 -!- eith has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:18:52 * due presents neunon to the Queen. 17:18:56 <3 17:19:14 * dpeg has good plans with and for the Queen. 17:19:46 there's gonna be an Angela unique? 17:20:00 We don't do martyrs. 17:20:40 1710? 17:21:11 well, who's Angela? 17:21:28 Angela Merkel, I assume. 17:22:30 ofc, the Queen of Europe and tomorrow, the whole world! 17:23:42 The good old plan, handed down from one Reichskanzler to the next. 17:24:08 kilobyte: I support greensnark's license plan. I think he has a pretty good picture of the situation. 17:24:29 Tell me when/if I should make a move on r.g.r.m. (or just take that step). 17:24:30 good plans never die, they only get set back, when badly implemented. like my plan to overtake vanilla nethack 17:24:45 !seen lorimer 17:24:45 I last saw lorimer at Mon Oct 4 20:25:36 2010 UTC (1h 59m 9s ago) joining the channel. 17:24:56 He's been pretty absent for a while. 17:25:08 dpeg: You have my support for base ench thingy. 17:25:08 any idea when greensnark's back in action? 17:25:24 bhaak: no. But he will be back. He is a crawler at heart. 17:25:58 I try to switch him back to the dark side. but I'm no palpatine :) 17:26:31 Huh, he is working on the dark side here. 17:27:29 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 17:27:55 Not... gasp, NetHack? 17:28:04 so you're a palpatine? o_O 17:28:06 dpeg: added that to interface ideas 17:28:21 you would need to abbreviate the school names but it works otherwise 17:28:34 so, when are we going to add Elbereth? 17:28:47 TGWi: I think we even did abbreviate them at some point 17:29:00 !kick elbereth 17:29:33 also it's rather squished together 17:29:40 https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:interface:interface#i_ii_screen 17:29:47 tomorrow 17:29:56 argh, wiki formatting 17:30:40 is there a bot that announces wiki edits? 17:30:52 don't thikn so 17:30:58 name it yiuf 17:31:02 I think I saw one for new pages 17:31:07 name it prequell 17:31:41 used to 17:31:50 i don't remember why it stopped 17:31:57 might've been spammy 17:32:00 yeah 17:32:11 maybe restrict to non-minor edits 17:32:15 major edits, if you will 17:32:22 if anyone actually respected that d: 17:32:47 better if folks announce their major edits themselves 17:34:47 TGWi: looks really good, I've been wanting a unified spell knowledge screen for some time 17:35:19 the only problem might be three-school spells. maybe we could reduce the spell hunger descriptors some 17:35:29 oh yeah, you're right 17:35:51 I just grabbed the longest spell schools and forgot freezing cloud etc would still be longer 17:36:55 my idea for spell hunger was to express it in terms of grapes (tenth, fifth, half, whole, two, five, ten) but that argument never goes anywhere :P 17:38:09 who really knows how much nutrition grapes give? 17:38:09 d: 17:38:13 100! 17:38:17 nobody actually eats grapes 17:38:21 one tenth of a starving 17:38:30 well, one tenth of a nearly starving 17:38:33 power could use fewer bars 17:38:35 I don't know, doy 17:38:41 why don't we ask Mr. Sigmund? 17:38:41 do we really need to show schools? 17:38:47 the power display isn't that useful, it could change 17:38:50 power being on a log scale is really weird 17:38:52 dpeg: I don't think so 17:38:52 "DIE MONSTER!" 17:38:57 The world may never know. 17:39:14 power being stepped down and then put on a log scale is extra-weird 17:39:23 what about having two pages, but moving all the static content to the second page? 17:39:30 still lukewarm, I guess 17:40:16 likely good enough 17:40:24 I think all that means right now is putting hunger on the first page 17:40:27 which is doable 17:40:44 and the second page would have room for, say, noise :P 17:40:51 and schools 17:40:59 sounds good 17:41:02 but then again, one page > two pages 17:45:16 -!- Henzell has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:45:46 make it scroll like a ticker 17:45:46 :) 17:45:46 use small numbers for everything 17:45:46 spell name: 23 17:45:47 range:5, hunger: 1.6aun (arbitrary unit of nutrition) 17:45:50 -!- Henzell has joined ##crawl-dev 17:45:58 Henzell cannot take it anymore. 17:46:41 maybe put the maximum range in parentheses? 17:47:10 I still like my grape-hunger idea 17:47:11 dpeg: if it's arbitrary, make it 16 d: 17:47:28 TGWi: your grape-hunger idea has no benefits over an 'aun' idea 17:47:32 doy: yes, I never understood why we have decimals in our masses. 17:47:35 except to make it more complicated 17:47:37 doy: it means something 17:47:46 dpeg: also true! 17:47:56 TGWi: something that no normal player is going to care about 17:48:05 because they don't know how much nutrition a grape has 17:48:09 because they don't eat grapes 17:48:18 so it's just pointless extra information 17:48:26 who doesn't eat grapes? 17:48:33 * dpeg eats grapes. 17:48:35 I'm eating grapes right now, tho seedless ones so might have less nutrition 17:48:37 doy doesn't eat grapes 17:48:41 , I take it 17:48:59 seedless = uncool, but you'd think the others are going extinct 17:49:04 hard to get them anymore :( 17:49:11 seedy grapes? 17:49:24 i buy grapes with seeds when i can find them 17:49:28 i like frozen grapes 17:49:29 (: 17:49:34 so annoying with seeds :S 17:49:54 frozen grapes sound good, I should try that 17:50:00 brb, freezing grapes 17:50:50 (: 17:51:45 someone ate all the grapes 17:52:04 when making marks that have flaming clouds etc, I know that to make flame ones it's "flame", is it "freeze" for freezing clouds or is it "freezing"? :P 17:52:18 cloud_type = "????" 17:52:27 rkd: check the documentation, it should list all cloud types 17:52:31 freezing vapour? 17:52:39 also check documentation yes 17:52:41 yea freezing vapour I mean 17:53:41 well I am stealing some from Mu_'s elemental lab to try and make my own ;P guess I could just check ice portal .des file for freeze. what was I thinking asking for a faster answer anyway 17:53:42 :) 17:56:15 is there anywhere that's short on vaults? 17:56:21 I'm bored and procrastinating 17:56:28 many places 17:56:33 Abyss, Pan, Elf 17:56:42 crypt 17:56:52 snake 17:57:18 Shoals 17:57:32 spider 17:57:33 :P 17:57:48 dhfh, forest, in that case 17:58:02 yes, that too 17:58:08 dwarf? 17:58:18 :P 17:58:31 TGWi: I know that new stuff is cooler than old stuff, but more maps for existing portal vaults are always welcome, too 18:08:24 I'd love to make some vaults, if someone would point me in the right direction :P 18:10:34 download crawl, find your way to the crawl folder then to docs\develop\levels 18:10:47 and read the introduction.txt 18:10:54 or read it online 18:11:07 but you still need a local copy of crawl to test vaults 18:11:07 and the others like syntax.txt is usefull aswell if you want to get more advanced :o 18:12:27 alternatively, look at the easy entry vaults 18:14:14 do I need the source code version? 18:14:20 Wensley: no 18:14:32 vaults are easy, you can edit/add them right in the .des files 18:14:42 and just restart crawl and you can test them 18:15:12 how do I specify a vault to test? some kind of wizmode command? 18:15:45 &L 18:15:54 alternatively, put a PLACE on it 18:16:48 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:18:28 Wensley: it is in the docs, but you just add a DEPTH: D:1 line 18:18:36 and it will come up in the first level 18:18:43 er, PLACE: D:1 18:18:50 now this is gonna get interesting, I wanna do something similar to this "SUBST: E = exxx...." 18:18:58 don't really understand it but gonna be fun to try :D 18:19:44 from what I can tell that means that E can generate "e", "x" or "." and with a higher chance x or . 18:19:44 that replaces e with either e, x, x, x, ., ., ., or . 18:20:14 yea I figured 18:21:47 (individually for each) 18:22:06 I do not compute 18:22:09 awesome, thanks everybody :) 18:22:28 if you have two E, one might become e and one might become . 18:23:24 yea basically now I got like 30 "w" and I want them to become either shallow/deep water and with a low chance fog_generator :) 18:23:36 just for learning purposes mostly 18:25:52 -!- enne has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:26:44 -!- enne has joined ##crawl-dev 18:28:01 -!- Wensley has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:31:43 this was too hard for me atm, gonna sleep :) 18:31:45 gn 18:31:53 -!- rkd has left ##crawl-dev 18:36:01 -!- enne has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:36:08 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 18:36:38 -!- enne has joined ##crawl-dev 18:37:07 -!- enne has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:41:40 -!- enne has joined ##crawl-dev 18:42:01 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 18:42:44 -!- DaneiTWO has joined ##crawl-dev 18:46:19 -!- Danei has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:47:20 -!- Wensley has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:56:36 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 19:02:10 -!- monky has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:04:31 -!- monky has joined ##crawl-dev 19:13:44 -!- TGWi has left ##crawl-dev 19:30:31 03dolorous * r0f3d8c578914 10/crawl-ref/source/godabil.cc: Fix piety breakpoint check for Yred's Injury Mirror. 19:35:05 -!- valrus_out is now known as valrus 19:37:14 -!- Mu_ has quit [Quit: Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place.] 20:15:23 -!- Guest33014 has joined ##crawl-dev 20:17:15 -!- Guest33014 is now known as Twilight 20:17:21 -!- Twilight is now known as Twilight13 20:19:23 -!- minced has joined ##crawl-dev 20:22:48 My git client is "in the middle of a conflicted Git merge." Is anyone here familiar with how to un-conflict it? 20:24:26 do you have local commits that you care about? 20:25:05 doy: yes, it's the Ashenzari client =( 20:25:21 okay, do 'git status' 20:25:43 it should list files that were modified in both branches 20:25:58 then you open those files up and look for <<<<<<<< lines 20:26:17 # Changed but not updated: # (use "git add ..." to update what will be committed) # (use "git checkout -- ..." to discard changes in working directory) # # unmerged: abl-show.cc # modified: contrib/freetype # modified: contrib/libpng # modified: contrib/lua # modified: contrib/pcre # modified: contrib/sdl # modified: contrib/sdl-image # modified: contrib/sqlite # modified: contrib/zlib # unmerged: 20:26:20 Oh sorry 20:26:39 so, the 'unmerged' ones 20:27:18 they should have sections in them marked by <<<<< ===== >>>>> lines 20:27:30 OK, I'm looking at one of those sections now. 20:27:37 one of them is the code that's currently in master, the other is the code from your branch 20:27:37 What do I need to do? 20:27:51 you need to figure out how to combine the changes 20:27:54 hence 'merging' 20:27:55 (: 20:28:15 oh my goodness, this sucks. 20:28:38 yup, this is unfortunately what happens when patches sit around for too long 20:28:45 the parts of the code they were patching get changed 20:28:46 (: 20:29:35 minced: there are GUI tools to help with this 20:30:00 That's a relief - where could I get one? 20:30:03 also true 20:30:19 http://live.gnome.org/giggle is one for gnome 20:30:27 which i haven't used yet 20:30:54 there's also http://cola.tuxfamily.org/screenshots.html 20:30:57 beyond compare is a decent one for windows, don't remember if it's free or not (we used it at the place i used to work) 20:31:13 i like Meld on linux, it's just a general diff viewer, not git specific afaik 20:31:54 yeah, same with beyond compare (we also used svn at the place i used to work) 20:32:00 OK, I'm getting GIggle right now. 20:32:07 meld is *very* pretty/simple: http://meld.sourceforge.net/meld_file1.png 20:32:12 (that's a godawful screenshot though, holy shit) 20:33:25 if you're a vim user, you can set up vimdiff to do it too, although i've never bothered 20:33:48 i probably would bother with a patch set this out of date though(: 20:34:40 Would it be better to just re-implement the basics of Ashenzari? 20:35:11 it's a possibility 20:35:18 depends on how conflicted it is 20:35:34 and how complicated the stuff you already coded is 20:35:46 Pretty darn simple 20:36:21 I have a clean (no changes) 0.7 client, but when I try "git pull" it just hangs. Do I have to be in the base directory to use "git pull?" 20:36:39 no 20:37:03 when's the last time you pulled into it? 20:37:27 a month ago. 20:38:10 might just be taking a while to figure out what it has to download, how long were you waiting? 20:38:19 two minutes. 20:38:23 I'll try waiting longer. 20:38:53 hmmm, shouldn't take that long 20:41:20 -!- matthew_ has joined ##crawl-dev 20:41:30 OK, pull is working. 20:43:03 -!- minced has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:45:37 I'm trying to compile Crawl but get problems when the compiler reaches abl-show.h (zlib.h: no such file or directory). 20:46:06 install zlib-dev, probably 20:47:00 I can find zlibc but not zlib-dev via apt-cache search 20:49:26 ok, installing zlibc doesn't fix anything =( 20:49:59 would zlib1g-dev work? 20:50:44 ah - it works now! Thanks! 20:51:11 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 21:02:45 -!- matthew_ is now known as m1nced 21:09:50 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:13:18 -!- st_ has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:13:23 -!- upsy has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:23:27 -!- enne has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:23:51 OK, during crawl compilation, libunix.cc has problems with ncurses. Would libncursesw5-dev be the required library? 21:23:54 -!- enne has joined ##crawl-dev 21:26:38 yes 21:28:29 thanks 21:34:22 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 21:39:40 -!- TGWi has joined ##crawl-dev 21:55:23 -!- TGWi has left ##crawl-dev 22:02:12 well that's... weird 22:02:24 if you have the antenna mut, you sense invisible creatures through walls, but not when they're directly in LOS 22:05:16 known bug 22:05:29 it's on the tracker somewhere I think 22:12:21 sounds like a classic case of "viewwindow is Linley trying to act like a Real Programmer" 22:12:41 ie, when the stuff is in LOS it gets overwritten by seen-map results 22:14:28 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 22:21:56 -!- neunon_ has joined ##crawl-dev 22:24:43 -!- neunon has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:33:48 ok so I submitted a patch and I'm hungry for more, but I don't want to squish all my changes in case I need to modify my patch in response to feedback. how do I pull but keep my changes? 22:37:01 git pull --rebase 22:44:58 oh neat 22:45:02 wow, git is magic 22:45:29 does it sometimes happen that git can't figure out how to do that? 22:45:51 yes 22:46:02 it'll stop and let you fix it 22:46:07 and then finish it up 22:47:15 Can do I make different Git branches for different patches I want to submit? If so, how? 22:48:09 m1nced: git branch branch_name will create a new branch from whatever you currently have checked out 22:48:18 so probably checkout master before doing that 22:48:29 then checkout that branch and do whatever 22:48:34 OK, I just checked out master a few hours ago. 22:48:45 git checkout -b branch_name will do the branch + checkout process all at once 22:48:50 a bit more convenient 22:49:14 How do I change between branches? Say, I've worked on Ashenzari and want to work on something else? 22:49:18 same way? 22:49:25 yup, git checkout branch_name 22:54:16 -!- m1nced has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:15:18 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:15:19 -!- tycho__ has joined ##crawl-dev 23:19:50 -!- neunon_ has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:58:52 03dolorous * r90461a1d4c2d 10/crawl-ref/source/religion.cc: Allow more fine-grained control of ability upgrades.