00:13:37 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 00:14:23 -!- lorimer has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:14:49 -!- lorimer has joined ##crawl-dev 00:28:19 -!- elliptic has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:37:00 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:52:35 @?demonic crawler 00:52:35 demonic crawler (09s) | Speed: 9 | HD: 9 | Health: 33-65 | AC/EV: 10/6 | Damage: 13, 13, 13 | Flags: 05demonic, see invisible | Res: 06magic(72), 05fire, 02cold, 10elec++, 03poison | Chunks: 09poisonous | XP: 239. 01:15:56 -!- gamefreak264 has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:47:53 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:55:36 -!- casmith789 has joined ##crawl-dev 02:02:36 -!- Wensley_ has joined ##crawl-dev 02:04:14 -!- Wensley__ has joined ##crawl-dev 02:04:19 -!- Wensley has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:04:25 -!- Wensley__ is now known as Wensley 02:07:50 -!- gamefreak264 has joined ##crawl-dev 02:07:52 -!- Wensley_ has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:11:50 -!- Wensley_ has joined ##crawl-dev 02:13:36 -!- Wensley has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:13:44 -!- Wensley_ is now known as Wensley 02:15:26 -!- Vandal has quit [] 02:18:20 -!- Wensley_ has joined ##crawl-dev 02:18:57 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 02:21:07 -!- Wensley has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:21:14 -!- Wensley_ is now known as Wensley 02:29:57 -!- eith_ has joined ##crawl-dev 02:33:31 -!- monky has quit [Quit: what] 02:48:08 -!- Galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 02:59:09 !seen kilobyte 02:59:10 I last saw kilobyte at Tue Sep 28 22:50:50 2010 UTC (9h 8m 19s ago) saying doy: yeah, I dont get that too on ##crawl-dev. 03:00:45 -!- eith_ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:33:07 -!- murphy_slaw___ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:33:21 -!- murphy_slaw__ has joined ##crawl-dev 03:40:20 -!- Wensley has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 04:03:04 -!- zergloli_ has joined ##crawl-dev 04:03:12 -!- zergloli has quit [Read error: No route to host] 04:03:12 -!- zergloli_ is now known as zergloli 04:06:42 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:10:39 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 04:23:41 -!- murphy_slaw__ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:23:52 -!- murphy_slaw__ has joined ##crawl-dev 04:36:31 -!- murphy_slaw___ has joined ##crawl-dev 04:36:31 -!- murphy_slaw__ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:38:45 03raphael.langella * r144d58e00292 10/crawl-ref/source/ (18 files in 5 dirs): replace selective amnesia with scroll of amnesia 04:40:54 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 04:46:02 -!- murphy_slaw__ has joined ##crawl-dev 04:46:02 -!- murphy_slaw___ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:55:18 kilobyte: thanks :) 05:01:18 03kilobyte * rc00f44bd0b4e 10/crawl-ref/source/ (defines.h spl-book.cc tilereg-spl.cc): Replace a hardcoded number with a #define. 05:01:22 03raphael.langella * r7199d528a1dc 10/crawl-ref/source/ (beam.cc beam.h item_use.cc shout.cc): Add noise to missiles 05:01:25 03raphael.langella * r5c91f256ba92 10/crawl-ref/source/ (describe.cc spl-cast.cc spl-cast.h): Add noise level to spell description. 05:34:33 03kilobyte * re53403437a90 10/crawl-ref/INSTALL.txt: Don't be as scary about platforms being "unsupported". 05:34:34 03kilobyte * r48e39d5d01ff 10/crawl-ref/INSTALL.txt: Rewrap INSTALL.txt 05:34:39 03kilobyte * r1a9c86cfa715 10/crawl-ref/INSTALL.txt: Add Galehar's note about buggy sdl-config on msys. 05:34:49 03kilobyte * r16d78edc4277 10/crawl-ref/INSTALL.txt: Update the installation docs. 05:44:20 -!- murphy_slaw__ has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi] 05:55:02 03raphael.langella * rc7574ff4014c 10/crawl-ref/source/ (8 files in 2 dirs): Restore casting noise for target spells. 05:55:04 03raphael.langella * r08e90061b17b 10/crawl-ref/source/beam.cc: Fix randomized animation of unidentified wand/missile. 05:55:07 03chriscampbell89 * r079e5efa0ca5 10/crawl-ref/source/decks.cc: Make torment rarer in plain/ornate decks 06:02:21 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:20:53 03kilobyte * rd19347bdd28d 10/crawl-ref/source/ (7 files): Calculate the LOS range instead of adding/subtracting to it. 06:21:16 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 06:25:52 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 06:38:17 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 06:38:21 kilobyte: thank you! 06:44:47 -!- xelister has joined ##crawl-dev 06:45:01 hi... strange, I have problems building from sources 06:45:10 OS? 06:45:11 I want to build wizard-enabled tiled version, on linux, how to? 06:45:29 both domake.sh and make TILES=y fail 06:45:44 does it workout with TILES? 06:45:58 no 06:46:01 stone_soup-0.7.1-1-g7ce9b19/source$ make 06:46:03 * rebuilding crawl: new build flags or prefix 06:46:04 make: *** contrib: No such file or directory. Stop. 06:46:45 xelister: if you just run "make" it fails? 06:46:49 !seen kilobyte 06:46:49 I last saw kilobyte at Tue Sep 28 22:50:50 2010 UTC (12h 55m 59s ago) saying doy: yeah, I dont get that too on ##crawl-dev. 06:47:12 dpeg: yes it fails as above 06:47:26 -!- gamefreak264 has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:47:28 xelister: what compiler are you using? 06:47:43 yes, you either have to have the deps installed already, or you need to do "git submodule update --init" to build the deps as well 06:47:53 gcc = gcc 4.4.3 06:48:12 ah, so I got the wrong tarball from webpage 06:48:14 do you build from the packaged sources? 06:48:22 -!- gamefreak264 has joined ##crawl-dev 06:48:30 why give users link to thing that doesnt build 06:48:33 on linux, though, it's probably better to install the system libraries 06:48:50 xelister: it does build, if you have the proper dependencies already installed 06:49:04 that's pretty much how all software on linux works 06:49:15 xelister: the contribs are needed only on Windows, and for some uses, they can actually get a package rejected 06:50:14 they are included in case you are building on a very outdated system, or if you are on a shared machine where you can't install things yourself 06:53:27 hiii 06:53:30 freaky week 06:53:34 due: hiii 06:53:52 due: How much weirdness did I contribute? 06:54:17 gamefreak264: None.. 06:54:55 Your week must have been -really- weird. 06:54:55 Todo: p<-->aP, Malign gateway. 06:54:57 Mu_: Around? 06:55:51 Hi! 06:55:58 due: I wonder why a low-risk ability should use uppercase when ones with a major cost like mummy restoration or DD wand recharging are lowercase 06:56:18 kilobyte: because it is so easy and annoying to mis-press p. 06:56:22 I do it all the time and I hate it. 06:56:26 yo 06:56:26 Mu_: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 06:56:30 !messages 06:56:30 (1/1) due said (10h 35m 55s ago): Do you mind if I take over the coding of malign gateway? 06:56:39 lol 06:56:44 kilobyte: think piety gain/loss rather than dangerous/harmless, if you want. 06:56:46 i can't code so :P 06:56:52 as a bare 'p', yeah 06:56:57 pretty sure someone informed pointless did the coding 06:57:01 informed him* 06:57:15 syllogism: I merged it into trunk, going to do some other stuff with it. 06:57:18 but after 'a', it's not any different from summoning a greater demon or such 06:57:18 hey guys 06:57:21 syllogism: pointless hasn't been around a while. 06:57:21 kilobyte: also, E and Y prayers are rare. Then, there is the argument I gave about prayers being hidden. 06:57:25 Napkin: meow! 06:57:27 Napkin: hi! 06:57:29 yes, and it does require some work 06:57:30 did squarelos get merged already? 06:57:36 will it be merged? 06:57:42 work, see you later 06:57:45 o/ 06:57:46 :) 06:57:51 Napkin: no, and if we have any shreds of sanity left, never 06:58:02 what's wrong with squarelos? 06:58:05 that much I understood, that you don't like it, kilobyte ;) 06:58:30 is it being merged regularily? since CDO and windows build are based on it 06:58:34 I'm probably for squarelos, though haven't tested it much 06:58:36 some guy mailed me personally with a pile of obscenities about it, even though that should be directed at someone else :p 06:58:43 *is master being merged into it regularily? 06:58:43 i think squarelos is working well 06:58:53 at least in the playtesting i've been doing 06:58:54 Napkin: I merge it regularlyish 06:58:55 Napkin: yes 06:59:02 excellent :) 06:59:36 for one, it's utterly contrary to realism 06:59:53 I hate the concept and every but whatever, I'm over itnow. :) 07:00:05 and, with the idea having been discussed several years ago, _some_ games would use it 07:00:11 kilobyte: so is being able to shoot farther depending on your relative position 07:00:14 shrug 07:00:33 I went through the list of roguelikes on r.g.r.m and RogueBasin, and not a single one uses it 07:00:47 how do they handle spell ranges 07:00:55 i don't see that as a particularly compelling argument, personally 07:01:13 and movement 07:01:26 even NetHack does it in a circular way in the few cases it's neither the whole level or 1 07:01:34 I'm more for spell ranges being square than LOS being square. 07:01:36 * due shrug. 07:02:09 due: for short ones, I agree -- sqrt(5) is particularly bad 07:02:18 for long ones too 07:02:23 but sqrt(8) is just as valid distance 07:02:26 long ones even moreso than short ones really 07:02:37 so you'd want 0.5? 07:02:46 ? 07:03:06 in 0.5 we had that 07:03:36 i prefered how it was handled in 0.5 07:03:41 03raphael.langella * rf1034e17b6fe 10/crawl-ref/source/ (6 files): fix display of spells from rod 07:04:49 going back to the 0.5 model is an option, too 07:05:25 -!- bhaak has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:06:38 the trouble with the 0.5 model is that ranges are either effectively limited to 5, extending beyond los, or even more weirdly shaped than either circular or square 07:06:59 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 07:07:05 -!- bhaak has joined ##crawl-dev 07:07:17 sure 07:07:38 yeah, that's why I'd prefer 0.7 with a couple of fixes (like reaching sqrt(5)->sqrt(8)) 07:07:49 also, it ignores the issues with ranged non-magic users, and melee characters 07:08:01 i really don't like 0.7 though 07:12:24 for what it's worth 07:12:52 i think comparing crawl to other tactics-type games is a bit more reasonable, since that is one of its major goals 07:12:59 and they primarily use diamond ranges 07:13:00 so 07:13:10 uhm, which one does? 07:13:23 I went through a long list, and failed to find _one_ 07:13:32 you went through a list of roguelikes 07:13:38 yeah 07:13:39 I long thought Civilization does that, but even that was not the case 07:14:18 any tile, turn based "strategy rpg" tends to use square ranges 07:14:28 yeah 07:14:34 fire emblem is one i've played 07:14:42 (as an example) 07:14:46 final fantasy tactics, disgaea etc 07:15:20 in most roguelikes, the ranges for things really don't matter much, because tactics really plays a pretty minor part 07:15:20 NetHack: full-screen LOS, circular effects (magic lamp, etc). DoomRL: circular. ADOM: circular. Larn: circular. Four little-known ones on the first page of groups.google.com/ r.g.r.m -- circular. 07:15:25 that's not really the case in crawl 07:15:29 it's either full screen or a circle 07:15:55 and i really don't see what your point is here 07:16:25 those other games don't have stash trackers, autoexplore, etc etc either 07:17:00 doy: does that game you mentioned use long ranges? From the screenshots I see it seems unlikely. 07:17:41 and for short ranges, the two systems can produce the same results (square 1 = circular 1, square 2 = circular sqrt(8)) 07:18:10 you're seriously missing the point here 07:18:35 well, then what do you mean? 07:19:24 my point here is no other game does square, and at least a part of them were aware of the choice and thought of it at least for a bit 07:19:53 -!- due changed the topic of ##crawl-dev to: DCSS squarelos argument channel! | Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki | Ashenzari source: http://github.com/doy/crawlbot | Long stuff to pastebin.ca please. 07:19:53 and i'm saying that what other games do isn't really important, because those other games aren't crawl 07:20:03 due++ 07:20:15 due: heh 07:20:21 but do you really not see the serious gameplay aspects involved here? 07:20:37 that's what i don't get, you seem to be just ignoring them completely 07:20:50 well, other than the exploration ones anyway 07:21:11 yeah, and unless you carefully count distances by hand, square confuses players greatly 07:21:26 what? 07:21:52 distances are the same, whether los is square or circular 07:22:28 because, as a bug report said, the cell at 5,8 is farther than 0,8 in RL 07:22:37 and people use what they are used to 07:22:40 and determining whether something is within a circular range vs within a square range is much harder, just by looking 07:23:07 in real life, diagonal movement on a square grid would also be 1.4 times slower 07:23:22 if you say "ball", people assume a regular ball, even though a mathematician would understand "ball with norm X" as something possibly different 07:24:13 we can either change movement or leave it a hybrid without any loss 07:24:14 why is it that a monster should be able to get to me in 8 turns if it's coming from the north, but 5 turns if it's coming from the northwest? 07:24:21 that is a really serious gameplay effect, in combat 07:25:14 and so players have to adjust their playing to always come at monsters from orthogonal directions (for ranged) or diagonal directions (for melee) 07:25:21 and why should you be able to move mostly twice as fast in one direction but not the other? 07:25:21 and that's seriously counterintuitive 07:25:24 and doesn't even make sense 07:25:29 what? 07:26:48 in the 0.6/0.7 system, you can benefit in certain situations. With squarelos, you benefit in any real case (moving on revealed terrain with somehow asleep monsters being the only case when not). 07:27:07 i don't understand 07:29:10 I mean, the hybrid system we have is not perfect (you get a slight benefit in certain cases), but that's no reason to go for one that's strictly worse in this matter (you get a large benefit in all cases) 07:29:21 benefit compared to what? 07:29:36 and as i said, it's quite a bit more than a "slight benefit" 07:29:40 going orthogonally 07:31:05 how is it a large benefit in all cases? 07:31:05 please, show me one case where not moving diagonally when you can is better in squarelos (save the contrived one I already mentioned) 07:31:49 i'm saying in the vast majority of relevant cases, moving diagonally would be equivalent to moving orthogonally 07:31:58 that's most of the reason i like squarelos 07:32:17 "relevant cases" being combat situations 07:33:18 in circular los, you can be chasing something out of your range, and get back into range by altering your angle towards it 07:33:28 needing half as many turns to get to somewhere is "equivalent"? 07:33:37 see, you keep saying that 07:33:45 and i don't see how it's true at all 07:33:51 distances between things are the same 07:34:02 regardless of los/ranges 07:34:14 doy: that's called the "triangle inequality" 07:34:35 what is? 07:35:08 also, the triangle inequality assumes a euclidean metric 07:35:11 which crawl doesn't have 07:35:14 so it's not even relevant 07:35:49 LETS CONVERT CRAWL TO 1-D GAME 07:35:51 ANY metric has it, or would be not a metric 07:35:59 all debates will be done with in flatland 07:36:03 oh wait 07:36:04 you're right, yeah 07:36:11 but i still don't see how it's relevant 07:36:19 what were you referring to? 07:36:58 xelister: that's not such bad an idea, surprisingly. a 2-grid does _not_ have any of those issues 07:37:34 heya dpeg. going to post up my draconian rundown soon 07:37:39 just like a 6-grid or a 4-grid 07:38:15 -!- Vandal has joined ##crawl-dev 07:38:15 :) 07:38:16 yes, most tactics-type games use a 4-grid 07:39:06 anyway, what were you saying that is supposedly just the triangle inequality? 07:41:01 doy: 4-grid != 8-grid (or rather, an approximation of it since a strongly regular 8-grid is impossible) 07:41:18 14:33 <+doy> in circular los, you can be chasing something out of your range, and get back into range by altering your angle towards it 07:41:34 kilobyte: that's certainly not just the triangle inequality 07:41:41 does that happen in real life when you're chasing someone? 07:42:29 if they are not running straight away from me, yeah 07:42:58 kilobyte: Do you have people running from you on a regular basis? 07:43:32 gamefreak264: no, but getting an axe sounds like a good idea 07:44:05 Why not a magical spellbook? 07:44:26 get me one and we'll talk 07:44:44 Hell no! It's my spellbook! 07:45:18 Wait... erm... go back to discussing dev stuff, I'm taking this too far offtopic, I was just intrigued when you talked about people running from you. 07:45:42 can't we just make the diagonal move to cost a bit more? 07:45:57 like, a 10-speed characters moves like 8-speed when given move is diagonal 07:45:57 that has different problems in itself xelister 07:46:08 xelister: Hahaha. 07:46:20 xelister: yes, that would also make things consistent 07:46:37 unfortunately, discrete time means that opens up a lot of really irritating gameplay issues 07:46:54 yes, but already characters have different movement speed, and somehow this is solved 07:47:14 xelister: yes, but they can't easily *change* their movement speed 07:47:16 we already have fractional turns 07:47:18 that's the important part 07:48:10 kilobyte: the scenario i'm referring to is: you're running away from a lich, and you're running across a horizontal wall 07:48:20 you reach the end of the wall and turn diagonally around it 07:48:25 you're now out of los of the lich 07:48:26 going to _more_ 10 aut actions would be bad... weapon use is good, spriggan/naga movement is good, a turn game is bad 07:48:29 that doesn't make any sense 07:48:44 (once the lich rounds the corner too, that is 07:48:45 ) 07:48:50 neither does killing butterflies with halberds, but it happens 07:49:11 doy: that's the case in RL, too 07:49:13 and you still haven't explained what you meant by getting places twice as fast 07:49:41 MadCoyote: perhaps butterflies should just have Ev+30 or so 07:49:44 kilobyte: not sure what rl you're referring to, but... no it really doesn't 07:50:00 that would make Summon Butterflies even more awesome :> 07:50:07 you and the monster have travelled the exact same path 07:50:12 butterflies have EV of 25 07:50:13 at the exact same speed 07:50:20 but then butterflies should really block monsters :P 07:50:24 doy: if you want to see someone hiding behind a corner, you are better off when looking at a wider angle 07:50:45 kilobyte: i mean, once the lich rounds the corner as well 07:51:06 or even if the wall was made of glass 07:51:28 lets convert crawl to a regular float x, float y; position game in 2d graphics (no tiles - just free positions) :D 07:51:29 maybe each single butterfly monster is actually a swarm, and the inability to move through them is like "geez get out of my face you damn bugs" 07:51:53 xelister, heh.. as if that wouldn't bring even more problems with it :P 07:51:59 maybe butterflies should be a cloud, ba 07:52:02 MadCoyote: ^ 07:52:23 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:52:50 Zaba: that would make console mostly impossible, but for tiles only I don't see any problems there 07:53:15 of course, it would stop being tiles and become just sprites 07:54:05 I mean, gameplay problems 07:57:07 kilobyte: http://codepeek.com/paste/4ca3379b56974a3e220682bd 07:57:17 yeah that was a joke I guess 07:57:21 that would be vastly other game 07:57:33 the @ and the L traveled the same path at the same speed 07:57:35 based on continouse position. and also time perhaps 07:57:38 at the beginning, they were in los 07:57:45 at the end, they aren't (given circular los) 07:57:54 back for only a moment 07:58:02 could the bystanders please be silent? 07:58:11 (: 07:58:36 -!- upsy has joined ##crawl-dev 07:58:56 kilobyte: and this is the kind of thing people take advantage of *constantly* in actual gameplay 07:59:04 Different durations for steps (e.g. sqrt2 for a diagonal step) is another can better left unopened. Can we agree on that? 07:59:22 the same pattern in reverse applies when you're chasing a monster that's fleeing 07:59:32 dpeg: yes 07:59:36 kilobyte: ? 08:00:00 It would be possible, but I believe we'd have a harder time to get it right. 08:00:37 I've got to go again, so I'll keep typing even if kilobyte is absent, I hope you'll still read this. 08:00:54 I believe that both the hybrid system and square LOS can work. This is not a religious dispute. 08:00:54 07:33 <+kilobyte> needing half as many turns to get to somewhere is "equivalent"? 08:01:00 and i still don't know what this means 08:01:07 how about 1/(2*sqrt(2)) chance of diagonal step taking twice as long (i.e. all monsters do 2 turns, as if you would be slowed) - end for monsters moving diagonaly chance that they will pause (take 2 turns to complete such step) 08:01:24 xelister: please 08:01:29 We want simple systems. 08:01:33 xelister: that's exactly what slow movement would end up being equivalent to 08:01:39 and it's exactly what the problem is 08:01:45 so no 08:02:15 It is not clear to me whether I am in favour of the old or the new system, but I have realised that both can work. I think that's an important point, takes out some pressure :) 08:03:01 square LOS has the advantage that target-abuse (which happens all the time in the old system) is no more -- this is a great benefit 08:03:23 I have to admit I don't understand kilobyte's main objection (the bit doy quoted) 08:03:31 kilobyte: would you explain that again, please? 08:03:34 My main objectioon is: "ugly". 08:03:41 square LOS has the problem that it's ugly, I know 08:03:50 yeah 08:03:51 This hurts most with the halos etc. (to me) 08:04:28 But the other philosophical point I wanted to make is this: we should not look back what other games do. If they were too afraid of square LOS but we think it works, then we should go ahead 08:04:28 aesthetics are a major thing for me 08:04:32 more so than any gameplay aspect 08:05:00 if I would see a square LOS it would be like "what? they event can't code real life range :|" 08:05:06 due: and here I think we have to be more radical: I don't like the looks of square either, but if square proves to provide better gameplay, we should go with that 08:05:09 (I also still haven't forgiven the Aizul changes. :p) 08:05:14 only takes a human a couple of weeks to adapt 08:05:25 doy: sorry, work. What you pointed out is a rounding error -- and you can't avoid those on a not strongly regular grid; that doesn't mean you shouldn't at least try to minimize them. 08:05:26 Well, playing it on CDO, it's not as major as I thought. 08:05:30 And I'll live with it if necessary. 08:05:32 !learn add due Has the memory of an hellephant! 08:05:33 due[6/6]: Has the memory of an hellephant! 08:05:38 kilobyte: nothing to do with rounding 08:05:45 it would be true if the los was a perfect circle 08:06:15 ah, and kilobyte has a point with the targeting imperfections (how did you call them?) 08:06:41 targeting artefacts, there are more of them in square LOS 08:06:57 But still, the fact that all targeting is equal range-wise in square is _huge_ 08:07:05 doy: ah, so you have a problem with the hybrid and not aliasing 08:07:11 kilobyte: timeout 08:07:16 What is aliasing here? 08:08:05 You know what would be cool? If someone (or several of us) would write an article about LOS for the devblog. 08:08:07 dpeg: errors introduced by trying to represent arbitrary curves on a discrete system 08:08:13 Do we also need to consider how square LOS interacts with vault design. 08:08:21 kilobyte: curves = lines here? 08:08:35 mostly, yeah 08:08:49 Oh god you've started on the maths. 08:08:49 due: little. Imagine Euclidean distance and then the vaults look rectangular or a little more bizarre. 08:08:52 kilobyte: not sure entirely what you mean by hybrid in this context, but yes, i don't really care about aliasing 08:09:08 dpeg: I imagine Euclidean distance *in my Nightmares*. 08:09:20 due: you should take a page from my nightmares 08:09:29 No, thanks. 08:09:34 kilobyte: do you agree that uniform targeting in square LOS is good? 08:09:36 dpeg: Wikipedia has an article that, while deals mostly with digital images, explains that pretty well 08:09:40 Quoth dpeg, "Oh my god, iit's full of equations!" 08:09:59 kilobyte: I want an explanation of the pros and cons of square for the devblog :) 08:10:16 I hope we are all on the same page that both systems have advantages and drawbacks. 08:10:26 yeah, it's very confusing for players, but indeed uniform 08:10:39 kilobyte: do you mean old players and/or new players. 08:10:44 it's confusing for players who first see it 08:10:49 it takes like 10 minutes to get used to 08:10:49 I think it was very easy for me, relaxing in fact. 08:10:53 yes 08:10:56 I mean both 08:11:10 well you are wrong 08:11:15 Fuck the players? 08:11:18 I seriously appreciated the fact that "monster in range" is universal in square. 08:11:25 syllogism: context? 08:11:36 Who is wrong, and on what? 08:11:38 dpeg: when he asserts square ranges is confusing 08:12:02 syllogism: don't think you can say it like that. I can imagine it is confusing to some. 08:12:18 if you try to count the cells, it will turn out uniform, but if you try to approach that intuitively, you'll get wrong results if you're not a mathematician 08:12:21 I think it is less confusing than kilobyte thinks, but it's a subjective notion. 08:12:23 dpeg: Certainly, but it's less confusing than the current system 08:12:31 i agree with syllogism 08:12:31 which is all that matters in this discussion 08:12:40 kilobyte: we can train players to get used to square, it's not hard. 08:13:07 whips are useful in this case 08:13:10 uhm, how is it "less" confusing? A new player can understand the current system pretty well -- it's an approximation of how it works in RL. 08:13:13 The first abstraction (playing on a grid) is no problem either. 08:13:16 one nice thing in simple square movement is that you can just "see" exact disance "3 tiles away". Even if it is incorrect. 08:13:42 It would make more sense if everyhin was square. 08:13:44 kilobyte: yes, but in RL we don't walk on discrete grids either. 08:13:51 xelister: yes, that's my opinion 08:13:57 and that's why i think it's less confusing 08:14:07 I don't think the psychological barrier is as bad as you claim. (I could be wrong -- there could be an outcry :) 08:14:07 once you realize how the distance system works, it's obvious 08:14:51 Ultimately, this may be a funny case of gameplay > realism BUT kilobyte has points beyond "RL" and "ugly". 08:15:07 For example the artefacts and the bit about movement I didn't understand. 08:15:14 trying to figure out whether some arbitrary tile is within a certain range with circular ranges is basically impossible, for things near the edge 08:15:22 this is not the case for square 08:15:29 but then we need a square LOS... and monster located in corner will reach you as fast as streight away, that is unrealistic ofcourse... 08:15:34 would be nice to have by around 08:15:53 xelister: gameplay > realism 08:16:07 We are willing to sacrifice realism if it's worth it. 08:16:40 xelister: this is true as it stands though 08:16:53 a monster located in the corner *will* reach you as fast as straight away 08:16:54 question: why would you say that gameplay is better this way? 08:16:59 It appears to me most tile based games use square ranges. Board games and computer games. Roguelikes being the exception. Admiteddly they mostly don't require ranges beyond 2-3 tiles 08:17:04 regardless on what we decide with los or ranges 08:17:22 you can just as well say that a funnier, more realistic game has better gameplay that one that requires you to calculate every move 08:17:35 why would you need to calculate every move 08:18:00 you have to calculate fewer moves with square los than you do with circular 08:18:05 so I dismiss the argument about "gameplay > realism". At most you can say "predictability > realism", which is something I don't really agree to. 08:18:06 as my paste above pointed out 08:18:34 doy: which paste? 08:18:46 http://codepeek.com/paste/4ca3379b56974a3e220682bd 08:19:19 where there is anything to calculate in that case? 08:19:41 "how can i get myself to a diagonal orientation to this monster" 08:19:49 but if target is running away streight up, you can chace him as fast when going same way, and as fast EVEN if you in same time strafe - that is very unrealsitic 08:19:55 how is there any more calculation with square los 08:20:11 xelister: you didn't play Doom then :p 08:20:11 xelister: this is completely unrelated to what we're talking about though 08:20:21 xelister: the movement system is not under discussion here 08:20:47 we're trying to bring the visual/targeting range system in line with the existing movement system, not the other way around 08:20:53 doy: just the same, if you can get a monster to move orthogonally not diagonally you get a speed advantage 08:22:10 kilobyte: how can you get any more of a speed advantage in square los vs circular 08:22:14 and about bringing targetting in line with movement, what is so precious in the movement system that can't be fixed? 08:22:19 this is what i don't understand 08:22:20 i vote converting crawl to a hex tile system 08:22:22 :O] 08:22:38 you keep saying things like you move faster in square los and stuff like that 08:22:41 and i don't get it at all 08:22:52 Pacra: that's strictly better than square, yeah 08:23:12 Pacra: there would be display issues, but no gameplay ones 08:23:13 it would also look hilarious(ly absurd) in a roguelike 08:23:16 we just need to develop hex-based tty terminals 08:23:18 haha, beat me to it. 08:23:45 kilobyte: okay, so "good gameplay" is subjective, whereas "realistic" is not. I play a HOFE in square and I found targeting to be much smoother, because there were fewer special cases (mentally). *No special movement* to get the monster into my shooting range, or to get me out of their targeting range. This is what I meant by better gameplay. 08:23:51 ??hexcrawl 08:23:51 hexcrawl[1/1]: A variant of Crawl on a hexagonal grid, dreamed up by a deranged mind known only as 'zugz'. 08:23:55 (: 08:23:58 xelister: we already do, thanks to the Chinese insisting on double wide letters 08:24:07 kilobyte: woot ;) 08:24:09 -!- Pacra was kicked from ##crawl-dev by dpeg [Heresy!] 08:24:32 dpeg: i agree with that, as do several other wiki commenters 08:24:37 it really does feel smoother 08:24:37 * xelister gives a sword of distortion to dpeg 08:24:44 hex is heresy? How come? 08:25:17 !tell Pacra Just a joke, don't worry :) 08:25:18 dpeg: OK, I'll let Pacra know. 08:25:27 kilobyte: I don't think we want to go there. 08:25:37 kilobyte: what do you say to my ^ ? 08:25:55 dpeg: with 1.4 movement, you don't have any "special movement" either 08:26:19 kilobyte: yes, but then you sacrifice something else: uniform turns 08:26:39 I think all of this is more complicated than just biting it and accepting square LOS. 08:26:45 "sacrifice" or "get rid of"? 08:26:54 sacrifice 08:27:05 We will get complaints, I'd reckon. 08:27:07 we already partially got rid of them 08:27:12 * due sacrifices Henzell on the altar of squarelos. 08:27:27 weapon speed is not limited to uniform turns 08:27:29 I can also live with a hybrid (as I told you), but I think that uniform turns, like uniform grid are very good abstractions. I would like to keep them. 08:27:45 so is movement for several races, spells and boots of running 08:28:06 kilobyte: If you walk with a same-speed monster in two, all directions are equal. That's good imo. 08:28:07 movement, spells, and boots of running aren't the same 08:28:12 do you recall the discussion about speed randomization? 08:28:16 two ==> tow 08:28:22 sure I do 08:28:25 because they are consistent per-turn 08:29:16 Anybody knows the strategy game Empire Deluxe? It is quite abstract and very good. For v2.0, they used sqrt(2) move points for diagonal movement, and I think they hurt their game a lot. 08:29:24 We have learned from games like Chess that simplicity is good. 08:30:01 dpeg: every one of the systems we pondered: 0.5, 0.6/0.7, squarelos, 1.4 movement, all have that property. If you run with someone in tow, everyone will take the same time to travel the path. 08:30:16 "How can Chess emulate a battle? The king on A1 takes as long to reach A8 as he takes to reach H8." And still it works. In a sense, the square model tries just to abstract a little more. I think players will take it. 08:30:22 dpeg: simplicity of implementation, or simplicity for the player? 08:30:31 player 08:30:36 kilobyte: not necessarily true 08:30:39 fewer rules are good 08:30:44 say a monster was chasing you horizontally 08:30:50 and you take a step diagonally 08:30:58 the monster could take a step diagonally 08:31:05 or it could take a step horizontally and hit you 08:31:16 same if it's reversed 08:31:35 heck, the idea xelister said in jest a while ago might be good: storing coordinates as floats and rounding off for display but not movement 08:31:37 The @ in Crawl is just a king on a chessboard to me. 08:31:46 if you are running away from a nasty spellcaster, you can't move diagonally or you risk it getting a double turn and casting twice 08:31:56 doy: speed randomization already takes care of that 08:32:02 also what kilobyte said 08:32:07 syllogism rather 08:32:17 kilobyte: that is a deliberate, additional layer on top of very simple rules. 08:32:21 Not the other way around. 08:33:09 that additional layer is only needed because of the strange rule that casting takes exactly the same time as a single step 08:33:13 I don't think we can make anyone like square LOS against his will. As I said, I have my doubts as well. But I think we could make progress if we can all honour the advantages of the various models. 08:33:27 kilobyte: some more abstraction. That's good. 08:34:15 uniform grid, uniform actions etc. 08:34:26 dpeg: so you prefer chess over Doom? (not as a particular game) 08:34:31 sure 08:34:41 We are sacrificing realism left and right. 08:34:58 I admit that the step from round to square LOS seems particularly dramatic, but hey :) 08:34:58 doom doesn't have discrete time, i don't see how it's really relevant here 08:35:04 sacrificing realism can be good if it brings something in return 08:35:05 I prefer Doom, I prefer Doom very damn hard 08:35:15 kilobyte: and it does, that's what we've been saying 08:35:31 kilobyte: please, read my long rant from 15:23. It brings something for players like me. 08:35:45 doy: what's the gain here? You sacrifice realism to get less realism. 08:35:51 doy: you have to accept that it does not bring much to kilobyte 08:36:01 kilobyte: no, I get smoother gameplay! 08:36:09 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 08:36:14 Pacra: :) 08:36:28 I sacrifice realism and accept ugly LOS but I did gain something. 08:36:35 "smoother" because you can know everything that will happen the next turn? 08:36:37 kilobyte: i get more realism with square los, from my perspective 08:36:39 !learn add Pacra Hexotic heretic! 08:36:40 pacra[3/3]: Hexotic heretic! 08:37:02 isn't this against the design rules we have? 08:37:02 the angle at which i face a monster doesn't affect how far my spells go, or how far away the monster is 08:37:06 and that's more realistic 08:37:14 no dpeg, that game is called Hexen :> 08:37:14 writing up mottled draconian changes and then I'll post this 08:37:17 kilobyte: yes. Because I don't have to worry in advance (i.e. pre-targeting) whether they'll be in my round targeting circle (or I am in theirs). 08:37:17 sorry for the wait 08:37:57 Pacra: thought you'd be angry about my nervous feet. 08:38:16 dpeg: that's a concern only if you think carefully before every move 08:38:25 no no, I just didn't realize i was out of the channel for a good 10 minutes 08:38:26 and NOT having to do that means a smoother play to me 08:38:44 kilobyte: i honestly don't understand that argument 08:38:53 why do you have to think more carefully with square los? 08:39:03 kilobyte: I cannot see how this is against our design principles. The game is primarily tactical, randomness is a challenge, but this is unrelated to the issue: you also have full information in round LOS about who'll be able to shoot who, it is just more obfuscated. 08:39:29 doy: look at a chess player. He has to spend a long time before every move if he wants to play well. 08:39:37 kilobyte: vice versa to me: less thinking about artifically range-affecting moves, easier play. 08:39:37 that's because he has perfect knowledge 08:39:58 kilobyte: we have perfect knowledge on the matter in both systems. 08:40:06 kilobyte: you have perfect knowledge either way 08:40:07 The old one just hides it a bit. 08:40:26 didn't in 0.5 08:40:30 not having it brings less incentive to think as much, and lets you just play the game accepting that you may make a slightly imperfect moves 08:40:35 and i doubt it affected your gameplay 08:40:42 syllogism: didn't what? 08:40:47 dpeg: we had square ranges 08:40:47 syllogism: you don't know the exact energy a monster has 08:41:01 syllogism: but there we could abuse diagonal shots. 08:41:20 sure 08:41:33 This is a major gameplay catastrophy. 08:41:40 yes, that wasn't my point 08:41:56 hmm... I just got an idea. The whole problem is because of ranges and ranges only. 08:42:10 ...no, it's really not 08:42:21 Sacrificing ranges (ie, reverting to 0.4) would make the whole discussion between circular and square moot. 08:42:36 no, it really wouldn't 08:42:48 kilobyte: i.e. all spells have full range? 08:42:56 (no, I'm not proposing that, at least not yet... but it's something to think of) 08:43:01 yeah 08:43:05 yes, it could solve most issues 08:43:08 just brainstorming, though 08:43:26 distance you have in los is still a pretty large factor 08:43:42 ranged players would still get 5 turns at diagonal and 8 turns at orthogonal to shoot things 08:43:45 etc 08:43:49 doy: yes, but most of the problems we have now would go away 08:44:04 dpeg: how so? 08:44:10 oh, you are right 08:44:13 this one problem stays 08:44:51 we would still have circular ranges and circular los, the ranges would just be a bit bigger 08:44:59 the issues would remain the same 08:45:16 yes 08:45:32 but the spell ranges accentuated the problem because they force players to _think_ about the matter 08:45:42 whereas before they didn't have to 08:46:46 sure they did, "if you want to get the most number of shots in before the monster gets to melee range, you have to approach orthogonally" is still the same 08:47:00 regardless of if the range is full los or shorter 08:47:16 doy: 1.4 movement again fixes that 08:47:29 kilobyte: yes, i agree 08:47:47 i've already said that 1.4 movement with circular ranges would make the whole thing consistent 08:47:55 doy: do you think it'd be better? 08:47:58 but we've also already been over why that's not really a great solution 08:48:08 i think square los would be better than 1.4 movement 08:48:25 1.4 movement would be a disaster 08:48:28 they would both be better than 0.7 or 0.5 08:48:31 I agree that it'd be other consistent solution: either Chess king-like steps and square LOS, or RL-steps (1.4 diagonal) and round LOS. 08:48:43 I vote square LOS over 1.4 diagonal 08:48:46 Even with ugly 08:49:06 or accepting minor inconsitencies in status quo 08:49:12 inconsistencies 08:49:41 dpeg: every scheme has its flaws (because of 8-grid being not strongly regular) 08:49:50 yes 08:49:54 so, let's sum up our choices -- and their flaws 08:50:06 But we're not modeling the world, only creating a little game. 08:50:10 the flaws of square los are not combat-related 08:50:14 which is my main point 08:50:27 kilobyte: would you start the summarY? 08:50:29 * squarelos: unrealistic to new players, very, very strongly promotes diagonal movement 08:50:30 1) Make Crawl 3D OpenGL game: pros: released sooner then DNF. cons: tty record prolems and lack of pizzas for 3d artists 08:50:30 the combat system is basically the core of crawl as a game 08:50:40 that second part isn't even true, but okay 08:50:56 * 0.5: bigger ranges diagonally 08:51:01 how is promoting diagonal movement an issue 08:51:31 and it doesn't "very very strongly" do that 08:51:41 it usually won't matter 08:52:04 * status quo: still a few cases where diagonal ranges are different 08:52:15 kilobyte: you are biased :) 08:52:20 * 1.4 movement: a chance for a monster to double-hit you 08:52:49 if that's the only flaw in the status quo, you really haven't been listening to most of this discussion/: 08:53:08 kilobyte: promoting diagonals == the fact that when my king wants go from A1 to H8, he's not allowed to stray once from the diagonal? 08:53:15 dpeg: perhaps, but I'm listing the flaws for now -- this is unbiased, my bias is in weighting them 08:53:56 doy: you pointed out a rare case where diagonal ranges are different -- exactly what I said 08:54:13 * status quo: can use movement to get in/out of ranges 08:54:45 * square: more targeting artefacts (a straight line from A to B having several equally good approximations) 08:55:00 dpeg: that, and also that this is never the case for orthogonal, to the point of being strictly better with not features of size <2 08:55:08 * 1.4 movement: promotos orthogonal movement 08:55:25 I don't understand the last one 08:55:27 kilobyte: that on what? 08:55:42 kilobyte: in order to not get the double hit/shot 08:55:48 on 15:53 <@dpeg> kilobyte: promoting diagonals == the fact that when my king wants go from A1 to H8, he's not allowed to stray once from the diagonal? 08:56:44 diagonal ranges are *always* different 08:56:48 this is not a rare case 08:57:02 that's inherent in them being circles 08:57:59 got to go in a minute 08:58:38 but, another crazy idea: if you say that circle+1.0 promotes diagonals and circle+1.4 promotes orthogonals, what about... circle+1.2? 08:58:49 okay, I can try to collect these points on the wiki page 08:59:41 kilobyte: I am not sure if promotion of diagonals or orthogonals is the decisive criterion 08:59:54 about status quo, I added my * 09:00:05 for square, it would be the artifacts 09:00:14 it may be good to generate a number of actual in-game maps and calculate the distances between each point 09:00:26 That diagonal is better than orthogonal (in movement) is inherited from Chess, so to speak 09:01:04 so does not concern me much 09:01:09 Chess has a tremendously smaller map, though, so the problem is nowhere as bad there 09:01:45 I don't think it is so bad in Crawl: few of our maps are really open. There'll be buildings or monsters which take precedence. 09:02:32 dpeg: since most of what doy said was "you are better off approaching monsters diagonally" or such, it's not an argument that's irrelevant 09:02:59 uhm, I agree with the last line, except that it has no relation to our discussion 09:03:05 indeed :) 09:03:15 why? because on a closed map, square is same as circular 09:03:27 There are various pros and cons, and not all of them are equally important. 09:03:29 you can notice the difference only once you get into the open 09:03:44 kilobyte: I would regard this as a pro for square, you as a pro for round :) 09:04:02 uhm, why? 09:04:16 it's not a pro or a con for either 09:04:29 since they become the same 09:04:45 ok! 09:05:49 as you said, most maps in Crawl are closed -- I'd say, "most easy maps", but regardless of that there are no differences between both models 09:06:36 so we can skip to discussing only open maps, since closed ones don't raise any differences between square and circular 09:06:43 still some differences, but yeah 09:08:47 kilobyte: before you go, can you live with p for Fedhas decomposition and Ely weapon sac? 09:08:58 And with aP for Yrdy mirror and Ely life safe? 09:09:20 I feel this would help quite a bit. 09:09:24 And due would code it =) 09:09:50 dpeg: It's on my todo 09:09:53 but... todo over the weekend 09:10:04 due: yes, but kilobyte was objecting to at least one of these 09:10:59 which one? 09:11:23 not sure 09:12:19 That's why I am asking. 09:12:59 dpeg: p for fedhas and ely would be great, I macro it anyway if I am under those gods 09:13:49 dpeg: I also feel kiku torment would be better as an ability, but that is another issue. 09:13:59 casmith789: yes, we know 09:14:33 kilobyte: okay, please give it a try... you can scream after commit, as we always do 09:14:53 dpeg: it's just fine 09:15:20 thank you 09:15:37 dpeg: my objection was only about them being hard to use when you assign keys used for other random abilities to far more destructive stuff 09:16:25 yeah, they'd likely be fine as ap rather than aP 09:16:31 but i don't really have an opinion 09:16:57 a few piety points <<<< a permanent MP loss (mummy who accidentally used restoration with no rot) 09:17:27 and even then, this is more a reason to change mummy restoration rather than Ely 09:17:31 yes 09:18:13 is the discussion what abilities to keep on p and what to keep on a? 09:18:21 but I got the reasoning wrong: 'p' should be for actions you do all the time (Ely weapons, Fedhas corpses). 'ap' or 'aP' for stuff you do seldomly (Ely lifevest, Yrdy mirror) 09:18:25 casmith789: yes 09:19:05 my opinion is that p should be for things that you want to give to your god, in fact what you said in essence 09:19:06 There is the additional reason that current K, Y, E prayer abilities are hidden from the player: if you check i/z/a in a tight spot, you won't note these 09:19:19 dpeg: also, before I go... where we are with Ashenzari? It'd be nice to have the exploration meter to play with god wrath, but I wouldn't want to step on anyone's toes since that could conflict with Ash. 09:19:19 This is why players forget Y/E prayers so often. 09:19:42 kilobyte: let me talk to Matt, I will get back to you 09:19:46 cool 09:19:55 we want exploration for a whole bunch of reasons 09:20:03 time is often not a good measure 09:20:29 (it is for negative things, since being fast == good; it's not for positive things: slow == boring) 09:20:37 dpeg: this reminds me of splatting a to-be 15 runer in Geh just because I forgotten I can one-shot all the hellions with a single refrig :p 09:21:09 by just wrote me that he'll be not around for 0.8 :( 09:21:25 kilobyte: forgot to check spells, eh? 09:22:02 dpeg: I kept checking inventory and such, since it's where the emergency items usually are 09:22:56 so it's just the same as Y/E prayer you're talking about 09:23:36 yes 09:30:30 -!- murphy_slaw__ has joined ##crawl-dev 09:32:24 what is refrig? 09:32:26 ??refrig 09:32:27 I don't have a page labeled refrig in my learndb. 09:32:30 ??refrigerator 09:32:30 I don't have a page labeled refrigerator in my learndb. 09:32:52 ??ozocubo's refrigeration 09:32:52 I don't have a page labeled ozocubos_refrigeration in my learndb. 09:33:11 what is that? some new spell? 09:33:15 can't find it on wiki either 09:33:15 ??refrigeration 09:33:15 ozocubus refrigeration[1/2]: A fun lv5 Ice spell that hits everything in LOS (including invisible/submerged things. and YOU, so have cold res) with a fair amount of cold damage. 50% chance to slow cold-blooded monsters. This will happily shatter your potions if damage is >0, so drop them or at least wear conservation. Works nicely in many places, e.g. Slime, Snake, Elf, Zig. 09:33:44 03dolorous * recd27cce8ea0 10/crawl-ref/source/ (mon-util.cc monster.cc): Add minor cosmetic fixes. 09:33:46 wiki should be connected to learndb here. 09:34:00 nope, that's not what the wiki is for 09:34:01 ??refrigeration[2] 09:34:01 I don't have a page labeled refrigeration[2] in my learndb. 09:34:11 doy: I cant find above info in the wiki page on chaosorge 09:34:14 forge 09:34:17 ??ozocubu's refrigeration[2] 09:34:17 ozocubus refrigeration[2/2]: Taking damage from this spell will not necessarily wake sleeping monsters. 09:34:21 oh, that wiki 09:54:13 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 09:54:26 03dolorous * reac6ea440970 10/crawl-ref/source/monster.cc: Add more minor cosmetic fixes. 10:02:33 due: can change the topic back :) 10:12:34 -!- murphy_slaw__ has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi] 10:16:54 Paralysed Confused monsters move around (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2659) by pixnaps 10:17:18 !seen Galehar 10:17:18 I last saw Galehar at Wed Sep 29 09:55:18 2010 UTC (5h 22m ago) saying kilobyte: thanks :) on ##crawl-dev. 10:17:29 I'm here 10:18:05 -!- monky has joined ##crawl-dev 10:18:42 Galehar: will you allow me to add your name to the CREDITS? 10:18:48 dpeg: https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:species:draconian#pacra_s_suggestions 10:18:51 of course :) 10:18:55 Pacra: thumbs up! 10:18:59 Galehar: cool 10:19:07 don't thumbs up it unless you've read it, heh 10:19:23 maybe they are so confused they forgot to be paralized ;) 10:19:47 thumbs up on principle that it's a contribution to the wiki?? 10:22:17 Pacra: two thumbs up! 10:22:30 this is good stuff 10:22:39 haha. lemme know what you think of it all 10:23:49 Pacra: would be possible to just get rid of Mottled as player Dr colour 10:24:12 thought of that for a while. here's why I don't like it 10:24:45 I think it's important for player draconians and enemy draconians to align, from a casual crawl player's perspective 10:25:12 and I would hate for mottled draconians to be stricken out of Zot. they're an integral sticky-flame experience 10:25:34 oh, I would keep monster mottleds 10:26:17 two nitpicks: Poisonous cloud is level 5 & level 5 spells aren't that hard to cast 10:26:48 ah, I KNEW I was missing something from that 10:26:51 thanks monky 10:27:27 Pacra: checking skills will not happen, though :) 10:27:54 poisonous cloud got dropped to level 5?? 10:27:59 that's too bad. is there no current way to do that? 10:28:25 and freezing cloud to level 6 yeah 10:28:28 Pacra: oh, the source was full of that (for example with DS). But it is bad design. 10:28:42 We can just make FE/IE non-recommended for Dr and that's it. 10:30:40 hmm, all righty. 10:30:49 probably a bad idea but what if mottled dracs gained immobility after sticky flaming 10:31:05 ...why? 10:31:13 to avoid kiting 10:31:19 Eronarn: why testing skills is bad? 10:31:24 no, why immobility 10:31:30 it doesn't make any sense at all 10:31:32 perhaps also make them have to be next to sticky flame targets 10:31:32 that defeats the purpose of sticky flaming in the first place, which is a spell that I don't like in the first place ;] 10:31:45 dpeg: why would it be bad design in this instance? 10:31:54 I can see why in DS 10:32:22 but the end result is an average crawl player will be immensely frustrated if they are a white draconian firebug, etc. 10:32:32 Pacra: first, it is a needless rl anachronism: genes are not affected by behaviour. And players should not even think they're able to game the colour. 10:32:37 sticky flame with immobility or slow movement would turn it from a kiting tool to more of a way to do a little extra damage during normal combat 10:32:41 Pacra: "immensely" :) 10:33:00 if it is a non-viable choice, they knew what they were doing 10:33:02 but it doesn't really make sense from a flavour perspective, which is why I called it probably a bad idea 10:33:08 Eronarn: immobile what? 10:33:13 dpeg: monky's proposal 10:33:26 I have monky on ignore since yesterday. 10:33:29 :( 10:33:42 hmm, thats an appropriate line of thought 10:34:13 Pacra: I am fine with breaking rl whenever necessary, but here it is just not needed. 10:34:39 in that vein I'd agree with striking the two from the viable list :] 10:35:30 dpeg: I get why skill checking might not be good for draconians, but how would you feel about a hypothetical new race whose aptitudes became more focused as they progressed? 10:35:38 I like to start Dr with something generalist, VM for example. And then adapt at XL 7. 10:36:05 Wensley: could be done, of course, but I doubt it'd be a good deviation from the (Crawl) norm. 10:36:51 If I make my "dancing dancing weapons" an Implementable, do you think something will happen? 10:37:56 maybe, blade is in every game after all 10:38:17 yes 10:38:26 would give some flavour to the branch 10:38:43 Also, I believe it would touch the hearts of our female players. 10:38:53 Together with flowers you can pick up. 10:39:19 we should maybe apply the effect to xom dancing weapons, which are kind of ridiculous early on 10:39:23 if they 10:39:46 just tried to dance with you half of their moves, it'd make xom earlier on a lot more attractive 10:39:51 yes 10:45:53 03dpeg * r5fbf8cc4cf03 10/crawl-ref/CREDITS.txt: Update CREDITS. 10:47:20 Eronarn: my original idea was to have them dance only if undisturbed (so only stealthy players would ever see that), like this: 10:47:24 ..(...(.. 10:47:27 ...(.(... 10:47:39 ..).(.... etc 10:48:07 but we could also have them occasionally dance a few steps even with nearby dangers 10:53:07 dpeg: I also have some flavour additions for draconians floating about in my head. 10:53:45 tell us please 10:53:47 specifically, choice words levied at player draconians by enemy draconians. "Traitor!" "A heretic among us, my brethren." etc. 10:53:58 speech is always good 10:54:06 could be extended to other humanoids? 10:54:35 of course. if talking to other humanoids, should be haughty and vaguely race-ist. 10:54:54 oh no, I meant kobolds talking to a kobold etc. 10:54:57 "Another wingless adventurer? hmph." 10:55:22 ah, that's good, I didn't think of species-species interaction 10:55:26 across the board 10:55:31 but it seems... very natural 10:55:43 there could also be species-specific lines, of course: "We have been guarding Zot forever and we will not allow a fallen draconian to plunder." 10:55:55 i'd like to see liches and vampires gain speech 10:56:00 shorter and less clumsy etc. :) 10:56:02 Eronarn: sure 10:56:08 Eronarn: they can already cast spells ;] 10:56:33 dpeg: is there a list of speech for each glyph and glyph subset? 10:56:50 "The vampire bares its fangs. 'Nice of you to bring me a drink!'" 10:57:22 Pacra: yes, I think so. Dig through dat/database/monspeak.txt 10:57:32 while doing so, you can add speech lines wherever you like 10:57:32 (i also still want to see a lich or wight PC race) 10:57:44 Eronarn: if there's a good proposal 10:57:51 The ancient lich rasps: "You cannot comprehend the danger you're in, mortal." 10:57:53 I am not so hot about lich, there is already the spell. 10:57:58 (and for some people, that's true!) 10:58:08 depg: thank you 10:58:30 dpeg: the thing about lich is that they are portrayed as having the phylactery, etc. - whereas lichform is just a straightup buff with no drawbacks 10:58:49 lichform does not feel very lich-like 10:58:49 I wouldn't say lichform has no drawbacks 10:58:50 isn't the phylactery just some D&D nonsense? 10:58:57 * dpeg does not like D&D. 10:59:03 sure, but interesting nonsense 10:59:04 as far as I know, yeah 10:59:05 * dpeg dislikes D&D. 10:59:07 can you clue me in on the "phylactery" ? 10:59:15 never heard of it 10:59:22 a phylactery is a small item that a lich's soul is bound to 10:59:28 Pacra: they stow their spirit in some material container, and if destroyed, come back unless that container has been destroyed also 10:59:52 For example in a Coke can. 10:59:56 Where is Boris hiding it >:[ 11:00:01 liches in general are d&d, so 11:00:12 doy: there's no mention of liches before that? 11:00:15 Pacra: there is the dagger. 11:00:21 haha! true 11:00:22 dpeg: not the crawl-style lich 11:00:26 dpeg: not in the "undead sorceror" sense, no 11:00:31 pity that 11:00:38 well the word was generally used to mean "corpse", in the context of funerals and burials IIRC 11:00:43 yeah 11:00:59 ah, it comes from "Leiche" in Gernab 11:01:01 German 11:01:08 the Dutch have Lichnam 11:01:09 it's definitely a more modern invention, but it still predates D&D 11:01:11 the D&D-ized version is so flavorful and heavily used now, though 11:01:11 and I believe the term "lichgate" is still used in some places for a kind of decoration over a cemetery gate? 11:01:46 not necessarily always with the phylactery, but it is an interesting concept, and i feel there could be more depth there beyond just a 'make yourself undead' temporary spell 11:01:48 well, the idea of the villain who stores their vital essence somewhere and can't be truly killed without destroying it is pretty old 11:01:59 yes, there's that too 11:02:06 well, at least as old as Coke cans 11:02:24 sounds like d20 modern lich 11:02:39 what, storing your soul in a coke can? 11:02:40 uses an old "collectable", expired Coca Cola for his phylactery 11:02:53 * dpeg debates with himself whether to dislike Gygax or Tolkien more. 11:02:57 one of those Santa cans 11:03:03 :) 11:03:14 dpeg: wights are a tolkien invention popularized by D&D :P 11:03:15 btw, dpeg, thought: there should be a necronomicon spell, castable by 'real' undead only, that turns a creature into 'one of you' 11:03:16 nobody would ever suspect it! 11:03:22 as we have mummy, vampire, ghoul atm 11:03:24 MadCoyote: yes! 11:03:25 why dislike either of them? it wasn't their fault people haven't come up with more original fantasy content ;] 11:03:27 all of which can make more of their own sensibly 11:03:32 it's expired so nobody wants to drink it, and it's collectable, so nobody wants to destroy it! 11:03:33 mummies are ancient Egypt 11:03:35 present company excluded, of course. 11:03:42 Vampires are pre-Tolkien 11:03:57 vampire mythology varies WILDLY, I am not even kidding 11:04:00 ghoul isn't tolkien at all 11:04:02 MadCoyote is a genius! 11:04:03 we should have an alternate tomb with south american mummies 11:04:14 a ziggurat, you mean? 11:04:18 ZING 11:04:28 no, ziggurats are middle eastern 11:04:30 wait I guess those are technically step pyramids 11:04:36 Wensley: my ziggurats are the Mesopotamian sort, not that it would show in the game :) 11:04:36 methods of destroying them range from hacking off the head and stuffing the mouth with holy wafers, slaying them and burying them at a crossroads... 11:04:50 MadCoyote: i prefer dispel undead 11:04:54 works well when they go invis 11:05:01 and let's not even approach the subject of the jiangshi, or "hopping vampire" 11:05:16 FR: hopping vampires 11:05:16 MadCoyote: this is how undead have benefited infrastructure 11:05:18 crawl should add psychic vampires 11:05:19 -!- Galehar has quit [] 11:05:23 can I comment on a recent vault addition? 11:05:28 they mainly post on the internet 11:05:29 Pacra: of course 11:05:34 and talk about how awesome it is to be a psychic vampire 11:05:39 haha 11:06:00 Eronarn: they come with brain feed, i take it? 11:06:03 "psychic vampire" is what I call my sister, because it is physically and mentally draining to be in her presence :P 11:06:44 dpeg: the new spriggan druid vault 11:06:51 doy: only usable on themselves! :P 11:06:53 there's an idea 11:07:02 you can autoexplore right into the middle of it. I did as a Troll something or other 11:07:03 Pacra: yes? 11:07:11 I didn't have a snowball's chance in hell of getting out 11:07:11 FR: undead enemy that uses a passive, weak ambient life drain while it is 'alive' and within range 11:07:42 MadCoyote: banshee! 11:07:52 that works! 11:07:53 Pacra: what to do? Place a lowly spriggan at the entrance? 11:08:05 I like that 11:08:28 spriggans at, both entrances 11:08:29 also, is there any distinction yet for p vs. W? 11:08:37 it seems like we might not really need two glyphs there 11:09:14 Eronarn, that's a good point... 11:09:34 keep p, get rid of W ;] 11:09:36 we now have what... wraith, freezing wraith, shadow wraith, spectral whatsits in W? 11:09:49 and ghost, flayed ghost, shadow, phantom, silent spectre in p? 11:09:51 wight 11:09:54 greater wraiths now too, with the dwarf hall stuff 11:09:56 wight is z now 11:09:57 Pacra: forest_paths? 11:09:59 oh, ok 11:10:02 missed that :P 11:10:06 no 11:10:12 kilobyte rumbling trees 11:10:24 hungry ghost 11:10:50 oh, spectral warrior is two things 11:11:03 but yeah, that's it then? 11:11:11 that would all fit in one glyph 11:11:58 yeah, comes out to 11 11:12:14 that's eminently reasonable 11:12:17 the question is whether to have it on W or p 11:12:52 p 11:12:58 03dpeg * rd3ffb0824a1b 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/variable/mini_monsters.des: Put welcoming spriggans in rumbling_trees (Pacra). 11:13:19 awesome :] 11:13:55 ah, but then what to use W for 11:14:03 dWarves 11:14:04 (: 11:14:20 haha 11:15:40 we could do wyrms! 11:15:44 Wyrms and worms 11:15:58 and wurms! 11:16:01 yeah, make dragons be W, draconians D and use d for dwarves :P 11:16:17 oh, no i mean 11:16:28 the things that aren't 'true' dragons, but are more dragon-y than lizards 11:16:35 drakes, wyverns 11:16:37 lindwurms 11:16:54 I was surprised nobody objected the dwarves being 'h' idea on the base of that being nethackish 11:17:04 [D]ragons, [d]raconians, [W]yrms and other lesser dragons 11:17:14 bhaak: who would be so restricted in his opinions? 11:17:23 it would also let us cleanly say that dragon-slaying works on DWd glyphs 11:17:28 rather than 'some but not all l' 11:17:32 03dolorous * rb036649bb2ac 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-place.cc: Add formatting fixes. 11:18:05 * bhaak looks at dped 11:18:13 alternately 11:18:15 we could just add werewolves 11:18:30 or weirds! 11:18:43 bhaak: just because NH is a lousy game, the letter set is still okay :) 11:19:01 -!- eith_ has joined ##crawl-dev 11:20:02 or maybe we could use 'W' as the disturbance glyph 11:20:06 i really dislike } 11:20:19 'Something [W]eird in this tile' 11:20:30 dpeg: letter sets are part of the design, too. so you almost have to do it unlike nethack :) 11:20:49 bhaak: no sense being different just to be different 11:20:56 if a certain glyph makes a lot of sense, use it 11:21:21 oh, another possibility - W for 'winged creatures' (kenku!) 11:22:40 Eronarn: using letters for monsters and non-letters for non-monsters is a good idea, though 11:23:20 dpeg: ;? :) 11:23:27 we could make it [W]atery monsters i guess 11:23:32 exception, and not a good one 11:24:07 I am not afraid of changing glyphs or colours, but it should never be done light-heartedly. 11:25:41 sure, i just like thinking of how we could make changes 11:25:56 (personally, I would like to swap i and s - [i]nsectoid creatures and [s]priggans) 11:26:11 and spiders? 11:26:30 are not insects, but are vaguely insectoid 11:26:34 i is a cure glyph, fitting spriggans 11:26:37 cute* 11:26:47 I agree, spriggan glyph is nise 11:26:48 q is more cute :P 11:26:49 nice* 11:27:08 I think W is befitting a huge monster, like elephants/dire elephants. 11:27:50 we don't even have too many huge monsters left though 11:27:59 &s are their own thing, so are Ds, so are Cs 11:28:02 does crawl use lots of non-letters at all for monsters (or did I just miss a joke because Germany starts to rub off on me)? 11:28:16 bhaak: *, ;, &12345, 8, 9 11:28:29 and ( and % 11:28:44 and mimics 11:28:52 why no 7? 11:28:53 but I guess they don't really count 11:28:56 bhaak: trees 11:28:57 treees 11:28:59 beaten 11:29:01 i want 7 to be treefolk 11:29:06 and 6 to be demonspawn 11:29:28 bhaak: Germany starts to rub off on you? 11:29:30 I want . to be the floor monster 11:29:41 Adeon: . is the glyph for invisible monsters standing on the floor. 11:29:45 wraiths and ghosts are somewhat differentiated in wraiths seeing invisible and having a branded attack 11:29:56 which isn't the strongest thing, but merging them would be pretty boring to look at 11:30:03 I agree 11:30:19 dpeg: yeah. you will see on Saturday, I've lost all my (sparse) sense of humor and will only be lamenting all the time! ;-) 11:30:31 Haha :) 11:30:32 OG17: i'm not sure there's enough places where there's a ton of Ws and ps on screen a the same time to care 11:30:38 cast haunt 11:30:44 I will bring you something to cheer you up. I hope. 11:30:49 (not saying we should do it just because, but if we did find a good use for W, i think we should consider it) 11:30:49 go to an undead area 11:31:17 ((alternately, if we found a good use for p - personally i think W works better for ghostly things)) 11:31:19 -!- neunon has joined ##crawl-dev 11:31:20 Everything should start with a list of glyphs sorted by how many colours are used. 11:31:32 dpeg: http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/kielosto/crawl_spoilers/ss/crawl_ss_monster_flags_by_char.html#? 11:31:36 (is out of date, but mostly correct) 11:31:46 if there's room to put n monsters in z, that would work, they're very rare to begin with 11:32:13 i think making n fill up some of the 'weird' colors in z would work well 11:32:20 also there is room 11:32:26 I want something like: "3 colours used: O (ogre, two-headed ogre, ogre mage)." etc 11:32:28 like magenta and purple 11:32:36 so we can see which letters are underutilised 11:32:47 ice beasts are obvious 11:32:50 yes 11:32:52 top spot 11:32:59 and k and y are sort of arbitrary, they could easily be one 11:33:12 one issue with k and y: yellow wasps 11:33:13 the list would help, in any case 11:33:26 Eronarn: there is no need to keep calling them "yellow" 11:33:27 rename yellow wasps, recolor queens, whatever 11:33:28 yeah 11:33:28 but we could just make yellow wasps into red wasps, and red wasps into magenta wasps :) 11:33:54 'This wasp is so poisonous your eyes hurt just looking at it!' 11:34:11 dire wasp, arch wasp, wild wasp 11:34:18 giant wasp 11:34:27 WASP socialite 11:34:51 just "wasp" 11:35:19 @??efreet 11:35:19 efreet (05R) | Speed: 10 | HD: 7 | Health: 26-52 | AC/EV: 10/5 | Damage: 12 | Flags: 05demonic, lev, !sil | Res: 06magic(28), 04fire+++, 03poison | Vul: 12cold | XP: 336 | Sp: b.fire (3d15), fireball (3d15). 11:35:29 oh good we did move those onto R 11:35:45 upsy: I think people came up with additional adjectives in order to explain that this is not your ordinary garden wasp, which is not so often lethal. 11:36:02 unlike bumblebees, say 11:36:09 "worm" 11:36:15 OG17: :) 11:36:19 etc 11:36:42 There's not a consistent system, yes. But I think that's why these adjectives keep coming up. 11:38:18 i wonder if we should make a grid with current glyphs, and then add in highlighted ones with proposals 11:38:44 what do things like "bumblebee (killer_bee)" mean? 11:39:07 genus type i think 11:40:31 ??genus 11:40:32 genus[1/1]: Monsters are arranged into genera (plural of genus.) Monsters in the same genus are represented by the same letter. The main game significance of this is that different monsters in the same genus won't be distinguished by Detect Monsters. 11:40:55 which is not a spell anymore :) 11:41:16 "represented by the same letter" is not true on this list at least, but maybe it is with the changes 11:41:44 is there a reason that ogre mages don't show in lookup? 11:41:59 ?/ 11:42:03 too terrible 11:42:38 OG17: bug 11:43:35 hm 11:44:12 http://sprunge.us/DCGR 11:44:14 (btw, i wonder if giant orabge brains should be moved off of G. they don't feel very jiyva-y, as they're intelligent spellcasters) 11:44:35 Zaba: cool! 11:45:03 "black" on that list means that it doesn't have a specific color 11:45:20 yeah, I did very simplistic processing of mon-data.h (lc) 11:45:49 42 @, eh? better split that! 11:46:51 dwarves are on q already? 11:46:55 it'd be good to have numbers that exclude uniques 11:47:00 @??dwarf 11:47:00 dwarf (07@) | Speed: 10 | HD: 5 | Health: 16-38 | AC/EV: 2/12 | Damage: 10 | Res: 06magic(20) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 130. 11:47:11 OG17, why? Uniques count, too :P 11:47:17 upsy: 0.8 11:47:19 ...iron elemental? o_O 11:47:22 not for weight, I'd think 11:47:54 casmith789: that's what I meant 11:48:45 then, yes 11:49:30 also there's some dummy stuff on there but that's obvious 12:01:10 -!- eith_ is now known as eith 12:01:45 Pacra: still around? 12:02:11 dpeg: for the moment, yes! 12:02:14 what's up? 12:02:58 Your flavour Dr idea was the speech? 12:03:26 yes 12:03:32 Just editing the Dr wiki. (Btw, I read "I (dis)agree with Foo very strongly." so often. Is the "very strong" really needed?) 12:03:37 Pacra: that was not you 12:03:46 how to git clone the latest version, as well as the stable version? 12:03:51 !git 12:03:51 what? 12:03:52 ??git 12:03:53 git[1/2]: git clone git://crawl-ref.git.sourceforge.net/gitroot/crawl-ref/crawl-ref 12:04:03 I am confused, to what are you referring to 12:05:15 oh, the opening paragraph 12:05:27 Pacra: yes :) I guess I can delete the part of alex404 12:05:34 does not contain crucial ideas 12:07:20 I did git clone 12:07:28 also funny to see how players beat each other with ridiculous proposals: someone says rF++, then the next one raises to rF+++ 12:07:31 how to now get the current officiall/stable version? 12:07:57 dpeg: you are referring to 256's in particular? 12:08:04 xelister: git checkout stone_soup-0.7 12:08:13 from inside that clone 12:08:14 Pacra: not yet. 12:08:18 * dpeg expects the worst. 12:08:23 interesting concepts, but I don't think draconians should become godlike ;] 12:08:37 indeed 12:08:43 also, the whole page is a mess 12:09:20 doy: at top level, or after entering first crawl-ref/ ? 12:09:29 xelister: doesn't matter 12:09:39 ok in the first level. it does not work above that. same as with svn btw 12:10:00 after the switch, the files are already downloaded / on my harddriver 12:10:02 ? 12:10:08 yes 12:10:14 firefox doesn't seem to like http://tozt.net/crawl/ much, some logs it opens normally but a lot it wants me to use an external program 12:10:39 dpeg: simple to clean up. keep each individual's suggestions, then delete the random red/green/yellow entries not attributable to anyone, also depictedin the table of contents 12:10:41 upsy: yeah, i think that's an issue on firefox's end 12:10:53 move borsuk's red draconian suggestions to his actual writeup 12:10:59 bam, clean(ish) 12:11:05 the web server is sending text/plain, but firefox is reading the first few bytes and seeing irc color codes, and assuming it's actually binary 12:11:21 doy: how to see log of last changes? and diff of them 12:12:08 dpeg: [18:10] * vimpulse is looking through old logs. Is dpeg still in Toronto by the way, or did he go back to his old university in Germany? 12:12:25 doy: ah, damn 12:12:30 xelister: man gittutorial 12:12:54 Pacra: I delete much more 12:13:16 dpeg: feel free to ignore that, btw 12:13:20 casmith789: I am back. 12:13:25 I met vimpules in Toronto once 12:13:31 vimpulse 12:13:33 ah okay 12:16:14 -!- vimpulse has joined ##crawl-dev 12:16:50 -!- Textmode has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:16:58 hi all. poll: who here has met another roguelike developer in real life? 12:19:00 i know people who have tried to make a roguelike themselves 12:19:21 vimpulse: Hi 12:19:33 oh, and i know someone who works on angband sometimes 12:19:53 dpeg: hi :) 12:20:03 dpeg, if it's of any use, I reordered that glyph list by recurring crawl monsters, ie no uniques, dummy stuff, technicalities, or sprint stuff 12:20:04 http://pastebin.com/aUF9Rfu8 12:20:10 some is disputable 12:21:13 OG17: would you add that as-is to some wiki page? 12:21:29 I was about to paste both links into the glyph page 12:21:40 would you rather it be pasted in-line? 12:22:20 in line may be better, don't really knwo 12:23:00 I'll stick in on the bottom with a link to the raw 12:24:03 cool 12:24:21 Pacra: who made the first list of draconians? 12:28:45 dpeg: what do you mean? 12:28:56 oh, the list im deriving from? 12:30:14 an amalgamation of opinion from elliptic, heteroy, and xyblor, among other people, the past 280 or so games of draconians ive had 12:30:23 and i asked 78291's opinion on it today 12:31:45 that's an approximate accepted list, but switching grey and black and then putting yellow much lower (between red and white) might be more agreed upon 12:32:25 Pacra: no, your list is okay 12:32:44 there was a list right at the top I couldn't attribute to anyone, but it is now gone anyway 12:33:00 oh, that 12:33:04 yeah, that was anonymous 12:36:04 borsuk done 12:37:56 256 is not too bad, but rF+++? 12:39:33 sigh 12:40:44 I really don't like the idea of "bone draconians" 12:40:57 imagine being a paladin or healer 12:41:08 "oh sweet I'm level 7--awwww god damn it" 12:41:16 it's better than bone dragon form, at least 12:41:24 (not really) 12:41:29 also that glyph list is up 12:41:42 plus the idea of a living creature that "matures" into an undead form is just... well, kind of stupid :P 12:41:45 https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:interface:glyphs#glyph_list 12:41:51 not sure on the formatting but it works okay 12:42:04 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 12:42:37 -!- Textmode has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:43:41 MadCoyote: yes 12:43:48 but his list has some good ideas 12:45:29 just knocking that one idea 12:45:46 I'm all for anything that makes draconians more viable or at least more fun 12:46:57 <@dpeg> 256 is not too bad, but rF+++? 12:47:05 i kinda giggled at the gold draconian 12:47:15 MadCoyote: which idea? 12:47:21 the bone draconian idea 12:47:30 perhaps I should have just 256's section 12:47:32 this will never come 12:47:40 +deleted 12:47:50 don't really need more color types 12:48:12 I think grey ought to be "iron" instead though 12:48:27 goes with the extra tough scales and tail attack theme 12:48:31 the original psyshvl stuff is basically comedy 12:48:41 OG17: I removed that 12:48:45 aw 12:49:07 oh wait 12:49:10 is that borsuk's? 12:49:23 MadCoyote: in that case, why shouldn't red draconians be fire draconians, yellow acid, etc? 12:49:28 i think the color theme is fine 12:49:34 good point 12:50:02 b0rsuk's is good 12:50:39 I meant the stuff from https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:species:draconian&rev=1266115851 12:51:16 was a favorite in ##crawl 12:53:48 it's still there, everyone's staying pretty far away from it though 12:54:04 done 12:55:12 I tried to clean up the Dr wiki a bit. 13:09:22 I'm liking it! 13:24:48 -!- Wensley_ has joined ##crawl-dev 13:25:16 -!- Wensley has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:25:24 -!- Wensley_ is now known as Wensley 13:28:21 -!- vimpulse has left ##crawl-dev 13:29:40 -!- Wensley has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:35:14 -!- vimpulse has joined ##crawl-dev 13:35:33 hi all. Why are lower aptitudes better? I would have thought a higher number should mean I gain skill faster. 13:36:15 and is it really too late to change the game so that higher is better? :) 13:36:30 they recently changed, if you didn't notice 13:36:52 i'm still on 0.4.4. I just resumed playing yesterday for the first time in many months (years?). 13:36:58 * vimpulse goes and checks the NEWS 13:37:26 ??vimpulse 13:37:26 vimpulse[1/2]: hi all. i just found my second bazaar (aptitude 70) on dungeon level 15 (skill 3). 13:37:31 vimpulse, what does that mean 13:37:38 ??vimpulse_explanation[1] 13:37:38 vimpulse explanation[1/4]: {vimpulse} is actually slinkies' parody of vimpulse's writing. http://crawl.pastebin.com/DVmN728f/ 13:37:42 ??vimpulse_explanation[2] 13:37:42 vimpulse explanation[2/4]: Here's what vimpulse's writing actually looks like: 13:37:43 oh 13:37:44 ??vimpulse_explanation[3] 13:37:44 vimpulse explanation[3/4]: hi all. I'm a level 4 mountain dwarf chaos knight. I have a +0,+2 dagger of speed (short blades aptitude 80) and a runed quarterstaff of protection (staves aptitude 120). Which do you recommend I use? 13:37:51 Adeon: :) 13:37:55 oh no, mystery has been solved 13:37:57 Adeon: you never saw the explanation before? 13:38:00 and I didn't know about it! 13:38:03 no, never 13:38:29 Adeon: someone in ##crawl emailed me about the mystery months ago, and I cleared it up for them. They showed me the explanation today. 13:38:34 ?? vimpulse[2] 13:38:35 vimpulse[2/2]: See {vimpulse_explanation} for spoilers. 13:38:44 I added [2/4] through [4/4] to the explanation today. 13:39:25 Adeon: :) 13:40:21 tsh 13:44:00 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 13:46:53 Pacra: cool :) 13:47:19 Anyone who is interested in round vs square LOS, please have a look at the bottom of https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:square_los 13:50:54 no spell ranges sounds bizarre 13:51:07 -!- gamefreak264 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:51:21 -!- gamefreak264 has joined ##crawl-dev 13:52:28 some of those "cons" are bizarre 13:52:42 Probably still ignored, but on the subject of realism, I find it much more realistic for anything to use a consistent metric, like round los in euclidean space, and square los on a grid 13:53:17 "kilobyte has investigated a number of roguelikes and none of them uses square LOS. (Not all of them use round LOS either, but many do.)" <- what else is there? triangular? :I 13:53:31 should it be mentioned with "non-realistic" that a bug report was filed for LOS being square? :) 13:53:40 hybrid LOS :P 13:54:33 upsy: sight going until it hits a wall 13:54:40 oh 13:54:43 I wasn't for square los initially and still don't think it matters all that much which system gets chosen, but the current anti-square los arguments are quite flimsy 13:54:57 i guess brogue is like that 13:55:09 I love square los and think it looks beautiful <3 13:55:38 who else on the devteam is against it 13:55:56 * due puts hand up. 13:56:00 but only superficiailly. 13:58:09 OG17: ah, I've now read a bit about the new aptitudes system. Much better; congrats all. And in general, thanks all for making such a fun game. 13:58:27 upsy: full rooms, for example 13:58:39 syllogism: what is bizarre? 13:58:44 I tried to do kilobyte justice. 13:58:46 right, yes 13:58:47 i think the distinction between LOS and spell ranges is important to resolve 13:58:55 And he has a point with the artefacts. 13:59:04 I'm not a dev at all if that's what you mean 13:59:19 dpeg: yes, and not to be rude but a few of his arguments are questionable 13:59:29 ie. if chebyshev is how you do walking and LOS, then is that how you'll do spell ranges, too? 13:59:44 what kilobyte is missing is that most of those other games don't use spell ranges at all, far as I know 13:59:49 if you can see it you can shoot it 14:00:34 you can do me a favour by making further comments (got to go soon) 14:00:37 please be polite 14:01:15 OG17: ah. but thanks anyway for answering my question. 14:01:43 OG17: in particular, the bit about the ranges is a good point, I think 14:02:07 it's also completely irrelevant what other roguelikes are doing 14:02:08 another reason to roll back ranges 14:02:13 syllogism: sure 14:02:43 -!- vimpulse has left ##crawl-dev 14:03:07 ranges are good, though 14:03:12 OG17: I think so too 14:11:25 !seen Eronarn 14:11:25 I last saw Eronarn at Wed Sep 29 16:47:20 2010 UTC (2h 24m 5s ago) saying ...iron elemental? o_O on ##crawl-dev. 14:14:28 my biggest contention with square LOS is that so many levels contain circles as part of their layout and seeing such features makes me wonder why my line of sight isn't similarly circular 14:15:35 Wensley: you LOS in rl is round, but why are all the buildings box-like? 14:16:42 I'm really not an authority on the mathematics behind why it works or doesn't work, but as long as levels contain circles then square LOS will always seem incongruous 14:17:31 Wensley: did you get my point? 14:17:44 RL does it the other way around, and nobody complains. 14:18:33 dpeg: that's not the point :) when I see that something that I expect to be circular is instead square, I mentally redefine what "circular" means in this context. but then when I encounter something that defies my new definition, the illusion breaks down 14:18:55 OG17: 1. all of those roguelikes that do have infinite LOS still use circular for effects, and I can't think of any that does have none 14:19:07 I had a good comment on realism but I think dpeg is still ignoring me and last time I checked the wiki the page was locked 14:19:23 OG17: 2. and I can't think of a roguelike without some form of ranged combat at all 14:19:50 Wensley: did you play square LOS? 14:19:52 effects like explosions? 14:19:59 dpeg: I have no problems, philosophically, accepting that LOS can be square on a grid. My only problem arises in wondering why it cannot be round if other things are round. 14:20:01 certainly not for aiming 14:20:07 briefly, and I have watched zigrobin play it 14:20:12 Wensley: not enough 14:20:16 like I said, not an authority on how it works 14:20:26 this is like complaining about new glyphs or command keys without getting into it. 14:20:27 gut reaction is to prefer circular LOS 14:20:31 ^ 14:20:38 kilobyte: would you have a look at my summary on the wiki? 14:20:53 Right now, I'd just want to know if I got it right. 14:21:08 OG17: NetHack has _almost_ no such effects, but the few which are there are circular. 14:21:23 nethack has this goofy set targetting system 14:21:43 adom uses similar, along with square ranges for missiles 14:22:05 !tell Eronarn I added a section about kill-stealing in your part of the Summoning wiki page. You said there's a proposal for it, but I couldn't find one. So I made my own. Comments? 14:22:05 dpeg: OK, I'll let Eronarn know. 14:22:08 aoe effects are a much lesser concern 14:22:27 dpeg: sure 14:22:29 square effects fall under ugliness, like halos, imo 14:22:32 kilobyte: thank you 14:22:52 dpeg: can't we have a separate list for every model? 14:22:56 dpeg: I literally just this morning finished the game that I've been playing for weeks on CAO (the new DDNe high score!), so I now have a chance to jump into playing the trunk build. However, I hope you don't disregard my arguments simply because I myself have spent little time with the build. I'm responding now because it seems prudent to get my two cents in while the topic is on everyone's... 14:22:56 ...mind. I'll be sure to respond later as well :) 14:23:14 especially since the main argument doesn't apply to circular+1.4 14:23:24 if ugly's functional, it's not really ugly 14:23:38 kilobyte: I was starting that, but then I began typing Pro: XXX for one, and Con: not XXX for the other. 14:23:44 kilobyte: feel free to re-edit everything 14:23:47 this is a genre that looks like a bowl of alphabet soup 14:23:54 argh @ doku wiki. 14:24:10 intermittently checking to see if i can edit yet 14:24:11 Wensley: replies are okay, but plain statements of opinions (even gut feelings) help little :) 14:24:31 I strongly preferred status quo (circular+1.0) until a few hour ago, but then I realized that the only argument, "monsters can sometime hit you twice" is moot for basically anything other than Margery/... and yaktaurs 14:24:35 kilobyte: yes, I was too tired to write another section on pros and cons of 1.4. 14:25:13 kilobyte: how so? Everyone who can shoot... 14:25:17 rationale: it applies only to ranged attacks, and for those, almost all real threats have a speed other than 10 14:25:26 aha 14:25:31 okay I finished with my comment 14:25:51 orc wizards have haste (and with the haste nerf, 0.75 > 1.4/2) 14:26:36 orc priests don't really care for single moves and you can't do anything about them anyway other than charging or escaping 14:26:59 kilobyte: still, circular+1.0 strongly favours diagonals here 14:27:01 most other big casters are non-humanoid 14:27:23 not as strongly as circular -- or rather, in different cases 14:27:43 anyway, food! 14:27:46 see you later 14:28:32 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:31:12 OG17: does ADOM have a bug where a diagonal shot goes farther than orthogonal? 14:31:36 OG17: never played it, but most roguelikes get it right 14:32:13 adom counts squares in targetting 14:32:22 I don't know if there's bugs with it 14:32:36 no obvious ones 14:33:10 missiles are basically like .6 spells 14:33:56 -!- Wensley_ has joined ##crawl-dev 14:35:07 -!- Wensley has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:35:14 -!- Wensley_ is now known as Wensley 14:43:25 OG17: I just downloaded it, it used circular for both LOS and missiles 14:44:04 you're mistaken 14:44:18 I'm looking over spells right now, but missile weapons are square 14:44:55 I'm a bit confused as to why that even matters 14:45:45 OG17: a starting archer. The 't' range is 7,4 but 6,5. 14:46:19 should I try a casting class as well? 14:46:52 grey targetting squares indicate that something is out of los, not out of range 14:48:33 it's in LOS, otherwise I wouldn't be able to see it in the first place 14:49:17 no kilobyte 14:49:20 adom doesn't use dark grey like crawl, but you still have a circular field of vision 14:49:23 that's not how adom works 14:49:28 it's sort of dumb really 14:49:30 you can still see those squares 14:49:35 but you can't see whats in them 14:49:40 since... it's out of your LOS 14:49:52 and I mean monsters 14:50:02 you can see/remember the items there just fine 14:50:21 * Pacra has completed one too many Ultras 14:50:47 hrm, trying to pick up an arrow: "do you want to leave bandit settlement Whatblahblah?" 14:51:03 going back there shows me the arrow but I can't get to it 14:51:24 adom hasn't been debugged for centuries of development cycles 14:51:38 you know, kilobyte 14:51:49 if you want to know the nitty-gritty of adom mechanics 14:51:53 sorear is the one to talk to 14:52:12 not sure what happened with that arrow, mine are stopping at the actual map transition boundary 14:52:33 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 14:52:57 oh ha it gets stuck if you fire two squares outside, but not one 14:52:59 good job adom 14:53:25 thats not even the worst bug 14:54:02 yeah, if you're going to actually try playing the game you should look up the patch for jackal spawns 14:54:06 one of the worse ones is if you give an item to a game-critical NPC that you need to do in order to continue for the more advanced endings, you have a good chance of getting crashed out and losing your game 14:54:29 what the hell, just found a game with octogonal LOS :p 14:54:31 another bad one is a bad memory call if you leave a stack on a metal ingot 14:54:41 which crashes the game if you cross over said stack 14:54:45 which npc crashes? 14:54:50 Khelevaster 14:55:00 I've never seen that, though I didn't play much 14:55:05 scumming would avoid it? 14:55:11 nope 14:55:14 nice 14:55:43 some would say you'd need to scum to even have a chance to give the item (it's a rare item) 14:55:51 og17: the uberjackals are intentional and no patch is needed 14:56:03 the various crash bugs are bad though 14:56:35 summoning is absurd (dark elven priestesses in the Big Room) 14:56:50 we could go on and on, I'm sure. 14:57:16 summon spam is annoying but not a big deal 14:58:50 until you find the same applies to emperor liches 14:58:57 and they can summon...anything 14:59:26 pacra, with the khel crash, you meant save scumming, right? 14:59:39 yay, last release in 2002, and the author still refuses to release sources 14:59:58 jade is coming :| 15:00:07 haha 15:00:10 tell us another one! 15:01:28 crawl needs a postcard quest 15:01:28 Eronarn: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 15:01:37 !messages 15:01:37 (1/1) dpeg said (39m 32s ago): I added a section about kill-stealing in your part of the Summoning wiki page. You said there's a proposal for it, but I couldn't find one. So I made my own. Comments? 15:01:51 -!- zergloli has quit [Quit: goodnight] 15:03:58 !message dpeg The proposal I meant was the one you already commented on, where XP from kills is decreased globally - so no incentive to kill-steal, either you have summons and are losing some XP regardless of how the fight turns out. 15:04:10 bleh, bots 15:05:35 Eronarn: another option would be to track damage dealt 15:06:11 kilobyte: possible, but this won't affect, say, using spammals to run from a monster to fight it later 15:06:16 whereas mine would 15:06:30 Eronarn: so if your pets do 90% damage and you deal a killing blow by doing 10%, you get 55% xp 15:07:06 if you used spammals that didn't do any damage, why would you have to suffer? 15:07:18 because you can use them to get distance, to get distract stabs, etc. 15:07:24 summoning isn't just about raw damage output 15:07:25 especially that a fight can take several tries 15:07:46 right, being able to get several tries with a relatively renewable resource (MP) is a noteworthy benefit of sum 15:08:00 you'd need to watch out for summons with draining attacks too 15:08:06 though I'm not sure why anyone needs to suffer 15:08:24 hp is just as renewable for everyone non-DD 15:08:28 A Ghost Has Bad Grammar (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2660) by sluggo 15:08:28 global exp decrease based on summ skill discourages getting summ skill after a char already has enough for his or her purposes 15:08:29 OG17: well, if we're going to have an XP penalty at all, i'd prefer it to work like that 15:08:37 or am I misinterpreting ti 15:08:38 and most tries are aborted due to hp not mp 15:08:38 it 15:08:40 monky: huh? not based on sum skill 15:08:42 oh 15:08:44 based on what 15:08:54 based on the peak number of summons you have when you encounter that opponent 15:08:56 the only proposal I remember was based on summ skill 15:09:02 ah 15:09:09 so if you have 8 summons up at some point, then regardless of how/when that monster gets killed, the penalty is 8 15:09:43 so eight rats cost more than one executioner 15:09:44 i think it's the fairest way of doing an XP penalty, because even one tough summon is still one monster and doesn't help out that much 15:09:59 the exception being early nemelex 1s and the like 15:10:31 OG17: i actually don't see a problem with this fwiw, if it gets people to prefer to use one executioner instead of 8 rats 15:10:48 i killed a quicksilver dragon in vault 8 once with spammals :/ and that wasn't even on a summoner 15:10:53 an executioner is already incredibly better than rats 15:11:10 how would this work with sputterflies 15:11:24 how would capped summons work with butterflies, who knows 15:11:34 monky: i think we should seriously consider removing it as a spell... i love it and all, but it's kind of broken :/ 15:11:47 yeah it is pretty broken 15:11:58 makes for hilarious panlords though 15:12:33 we could make it a rare scroll like dpeg had wanted more of - 'scroll of distraction' 15:12:51 maybe add some random noises in the vicinity, bright lights, etc. 15:13:12 and keep it as a xom spell, of course 15:24:11 -!- syllogism has quit [] 15:26:28 -!- gamefreak264 has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:27:44 -!- neunon has quit [Quit: neunon] 15:29:06 -!- Wensley_ has joined ##crawl-dev 15:31:07 -!- Wensley has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:31:15 -!- Wensley_ is now known as Wensley 15:36:46 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 15:48:52 -!- gamefreak264 has joined ##crawl-dev 16:03:07 -!- Wensley has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:07:00 -!- gamefreak264 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:12:55 Eronarn: perhaps random uselessness could be buffed? 16:13:36 it already is not strictly useless (beyond training Spellcasting), as it can give you butterflies 16:16:15 kilobyte: i think random uselessness is fine the way it is; it could also give butterflies, still, but if we want to keep butterflies as a more reliable effect a new scroll seems appropriate 16:16:35 or a misc item 16:17:20 yeah, we could use some unique spells for rods, too 16:23:53 version doesn't build (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2661) by SinsI 16:48:38 -!- Siber has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:52:00 -!- Siber has joined ##crawl-dev 16:55:30 -!- Siber has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:03:29 -!- Siber has joined ##crawl-dev 17:11:07 03dolorous * r88b0312fc2bc 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-place.cc: Fix apparent typo in simulacrum stat mods. 17:11:08 03dolorous * ree028013a7d8 10/crawl-ref/source/spl-summoning.cc: Reorganize zombie flag-setting a bit. 17:26:30 03raphael.langella * r841f79ab52fe 10/crawl-ref/source/ (5 files): removed scroll of amnesia map rot effect 17:41:18 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:41:39 -!- Galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 18:01:59 -!- Galehar has quit [Quit: Page closed] 18:03:53 -!- OG17 has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:13:07 -!- eith has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:18:31 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 18:25:31 -!- OG17 has joined ##crawl-dev 18:45:40 -!- Danei has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:50:05 -!- Danei has joined ##crawl-dev 18:58:26 -!- elliptic has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:58:48 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 19:02:28 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 19:14:47 FR: "the arena" renamed to "dungeon brawl" 19:15:36 bazaar => dungeon mall 19:15:58 gahaha 19:17:48 shafts => dungeon fall 19:18:27 farming => dungeon stall 19:18:28 a sadistic unique who likes to torture his victims 19:18:30 dungeon saw 19:18:40 that would be great, having the pc get kidnapped 19:18:58 saw says "get the orb!" 19:19:01 and forced to fight his way through monstrous traps and overcome impossible odds 19:19:11 that could be the whole backstory! 19:19:13 man if only this game could be that cool :( 19:19:50 the devteam didn't do a dungeon poll this past tourney 19:20:18 Saw is less than three hundred years old. 19:20:22 Ergo, no Saw reference. 19:20:33 hahaha, that's the only reason? :P 19:20:48 new french-speaking unique monster => dungeon gaul 19:21:11 Zannick: Well, it's a stupid idea otherwise. :p 19:21:24 good, you are sane :P 19:21:53 dungeon poll? 19:22:08 orb of zot => dungeon ball 19:22:48 brilliant 19:22:51 the corpses in the game have a particular dungeon pall 19:23:51 forget those dead suckas, add their loot to my dungeon haul 19:25:46 how does the crawl license differ from the licenses for other open-source projects? 19:26:17 it's shit 19:26:25 ? 19:26:27 haha, monky. 19:26:33 cloak -> dungeon shawl 19:26:36 it disallows a lot of stuff 19:26:53 ankus -> dungeon awl 19:27:00 or dagger -> dungeon awl 19:27:09 kenku => dungeon fowl 19:27:20 ^ not even trying 19:27:53 you have no respect for slant rhymes 19:28:10 i must leave the branch i am in 19:28:12 go read some keats or dickinson! 19:28:14 i feel the dungeon call 19:28:41 -!- Mu_ has quit [Quit: Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place.] 19:28:59 Pacra: don't speak to me in that dungeon drawl 19:29:02 Wensley: it's effectively gpl version 0, before anybody really put any effort into thinking through the consequenses 19:29:42 it's a copy of the nethack license, which i believe was a copy of the bison license from back in the mid-802 19:29:45 80s 19:30:00 is the dcss license a consequence of the license for linley's dungeon crawl? 19:30:24 yes 19:30:46 true wensley. I'd like to change the cloak entry to => a dungeon pall 19:31:16 puns in every item description, I say! 19:31:18 and I mean, really? slant rhymes? as if I'd have the... dungeon gall! 19:31:25 ^ much better 19:31:25 pikel should have dungeon thralls 19:31:30 he totally does 19:31:45 you would too, if you had the dungeon balls 19:32:03 the vault city-style levels should be renamed the dungeon sprawl 19:32:25 lair:1 stash? your dungeon haul! 19:32:43 if you fight unarmed you should give a right hook to their dungeon jaw 19:33:14 we should add an inscription feature like nethack, call it dungeon scrawl 19:33:40 demon lord about to cast ice storm on you? better retreat before you're caught in a dungeon squall 19:33:58 there cannot exist many more rhymes for this word 19:34:07 psh 19:34:11 we've just started 19:34:49 trying to kill those pesky submerging fish? you're participating in the time honored... dungeon trawl. 19:35:25 you splatted! time for... a dungeon bawl. 19:35:37 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 19:38:21 03dolorous * r3ae213372b8b 10/crawl-ref/source/godabil.cc: Fix the speed of Yred's enslaved souls. 19:40:30 let's take a break with a luncheon crawl 19:40:34 03dolorous * r1cc3e9d89a71 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-place.cc: Comment fix. 19:40:36 03dolorous * r1ca7b7e6aca0 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-place.cc: Add minor cosmetic fix. 19:41:00 that treasure trove is off-limits: you don't have the dungeon wherewithal 19:41:55 if I don't play for extended periods of time I go into dungeon withdrawal 19:43:00 i'm sure you'd feel better with a dungeon cure-all 19:44:27 you're getting annoying now :p 19:45:36 :D 20:14:55 03dolorous * r4c8d5e728478 10/crawl-ref/source/spl-summoning.cc: Rename a few variables in cast_simulacrum() to match _raise_remains(). 20:25:33 -!- enne has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:26:34 -!- enne has joined ##crawl-dev 20:37:28 doy: haha that's a good one 20:38:28 hit a bug? better open the source and look for that function call 20:55:04 -!- DaneiTWO has joined ##crawl-dev 20:55:37 03dolorous * r75121eca388d 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-place.cc: Move single-use parameters out of _define_zombie(). 20:56:42 -!- Danei has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:20:32 03dolorous * rfac0a13230b3 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-stuff.cc: Move spectral thing creation for Death Channel to its own function. 21:32:04 -!- xelister has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:41:35 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:01:00 -!- upsy has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:16:22 03dolorous * r820b7ca5be58 10/crawl-ref/source/ (6 files): Make zombified monsters retain their stats (at least HD and HP). 22:29:41 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 22:32:43 -!- DaneiTWO has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:42:36 -!- Wensley has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.17/2009122204]] 23:32:12 -!- DaneiTWO has joined ##crawl-dev 23:39:10 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:44:28 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 23:53:34 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:55:09 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev