00:35:20 -!- enne has joined ##crawl-dev 00:40:08 -!- Spray has joined ##crawl-dev 00:42:18 -!- MadCoyote has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:11:24 -!- murphy_slaw__ has joined ##crawl-dev 01:13:44 -!- murphy_slaw___ has joined ##crawl-dev 01:15:22 -!- murphy_slaw__ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:26:29 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:33:55 -!- murphy_slaw___ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:35:13 -!- murphy_slaw__ has joined ##crawl-dev 01:39:02 -!- blackpenguin has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:41:09 -!- blackpenguin has joined ##crawl-dev 03:02:08 -!- murphy_slaw__ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:02:26 -!- murphy_slaw__ has joined ##crawl-dev 03:11:55 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 03:14:09 -!- galehar has quit [Client Quit] 03:14:32 -!- elliptic has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:14:34 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 03:14:35 -!- casmith_789 has joined ##crawl-dev 03:15:08 -!- casmith789 has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:15:17 -!- casmith_789 is now known as casmith789 03:20:58 -!- gamefreak264 has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:54:09 hm 03:54:19 we need to merge malign gateway into trunk i think 04:02:51 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 04:23:54 -!- gamefreak264 has joined ##crawl-dev 04:41:15 -!- bmh has joined ##crawl-dev 04:50:55 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 04:51:03 hey syllogism 04:51:08 hi 04:51:37 So this would probably 1) be a horrendously sweeping change that would be difficult to balance, 2) has probably been proposed: 04:51:47 What if orcs shoved each other like elephants shove the player 04:53:03 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 04:53:10 hi Mu_ 04:53:24 Hail, and well met. 04:54:32 right, so before you came in, I was making wild suggestions that orcs should shove each other like elephants shove players 04:55:08 i haven't seen how elephants shove players yet, do they move them backwards? 04:55:20 yeah, they trample you and knock you about 04:55:33 that'd be pretty funny to have a bunch of orcs doing it 04:55:58 big orcs pushing little orcs 04:56:39 doesn't some edition of Warhammer have "animosity" rules where orcs have a chance to start fighting themselves instead of the enemy? 04:57:09 from ##crawl: "Pacra: I also haven't understood why intelligent mobs will stop before roasting themselves in a fire cloud but pay no attention to poisonous clouds" 04:57:33 kilobyte: I don't recall, I never played Orks. Imperial Guard has commissars who execute troops if they run 04:59:11 bmh: https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:trampling sort of 04:59:13 I think it's Warhammer Battle, not 40k. I never played it, though, this knowledge comes only from reading TSOALR 04:59:40 doy: precisely 05:00:35 -!- zergloli has joined ##crawl-dev 05:01:16 hrm. I think I found a minor bug. 05:01:23 When casting conjure flame on a submerged fish: 05:01:25 "You see a ghostly outline there, and the spell fizzles." 05:01:58 sounds vaguely familiar 05:03:15 observed with trapdoor spiders, apparently https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2497 05:07:45 while the message is disputable with spiders, it's certainly wrong for fish 05:08:56 -!- Noom_wrk has joined ##crawl-dev 05:09:12 -!- Noom_wrk has left ##crawl-dev 05:14:45 -!- murphy_slaw___ has joined ##crawl-dev 05:14:45 -!- murphy_slaw__ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:21:15 -!- bmh has quit [Quit: bmh] 05:22:15 -!- monky has quit [Quit: what] 05:23:32 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 05:23:41 !seen bhaak 05:23:41 I last saw bhaak at Mon Sep 27 06:23:03 2010 UTC (1d 4h 38s ago) joining the channel. 05:24:35 -!- Spray is now known as MadCoyote 05:25:47 !seen kilobyte 05:25:47 I last saw kilobyte at Tue Sep 28 09:59:13 2010 UTC (26m 34s ago) saying I think its Warhammer Battle, not 40k. I never played it, though, this knowledge comes only from reading TSOALR on ##crawl-dev. 05:26:53 dpeg: what do you think about Spider? 05:27:00 kilobyte: as branch? 05:28:13 i've enjoyed the portal vaults i've found so far(: 05:28:17 by did a very quick and dirty implementation of Kusigrosz' algorithm, it should be recoded properly since that prototype is both slow like hell and as buggy -- but that's what prototypes are for 05:28:44 I'm not sure if Eino is satisfied with the monster list 05:28:45 just got yout mail 05:29:02 kilobyte: fine with me 05:29:48 I mean, I'm busy with the Unicode overhaul which is a huge project, but it's not something that needs balance testing like a branch 05:31:15 the question for you is: how much do you like simple branches 05:33:18 !seen keskitalo 05:33:18 I last saw Keskitalo at Tue Sep 14 19:14:11 2010 UTC (1w 6d 15h 19m 7s ago) quitting with message Quit: leaving. 05:36:21 kilobyte: keskitalo is expecting a child :) 05:36:29 kilobyte: simple branches are okay 05:36:36 as long as they meet our design criteria 05:44:02 also, Spider will unlock the spider god 05:50:33 -!- upsy has joined ##crawl-dev 05:53:01 !seen greensnark 05:53:01 I last saw greensnark at Sat Sep 25 06:43:46 2010 UTC (3d 4h 9m 15s ago) saying !lm Pacra -tv:>$ on ##crawl. 05:53:35 !tell greensnark Would it be hard to have usage statistics like on CAO also for CDO? Cheers :) 05:53:36 dpeg: OK, I'll let greensnark know. 05:58:15 speaking on statistics, do we have the numbers on downloads of console vs tiles on Windows? 05:59:28 kilobyte: I was unable to get them off the SF page after their remake :/ 05:59:44 (jpeg and I tried to get many numbers for the poll report) 06:02:40 kilobyte: I would like to apply some patches of galehar. Can you help me to do this efficiently? For some reason this always takes ages for me. 06:02:53 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 06:03:42 He is doing good stuff, I don't want his patches to sit on the shelves for long. 06:05:31 thanks :) 06:05:48 galehar: oh, you are here! :) Many thanks for your work. 06:06:36 They will be used, don't falter. 06:06:53 Even if I can only commit one patch of yours per evening. 06:07:02 <-- is very slow with git and co 06:07:06 it's fine 06:07:13 I doubt I can code faster :) 06:07:26 btw, are you in the CREDITS yet? 06:07:55 if not, you should :) 06:08:23 well, nothing I've done have made it into trunk yet 06:08:24 speaking about adding people to any kind of a credits list, what about adding a "relicense" field there? 06:09:11 galehar: just a matter of time 06:09:17 kilobyte: tell us more, please 06:09:34 because, for starters, even adding stuff under a completely liberal one, like wcwidth() which I need, is technically illegal 06:10:28 What is a "relicense" field in CREDITS supposed to achieve? 06:11:17 so, I'd say, let's start with putting a note "any contributions from this point on must be under two licenses: the Crawl license (for now) and GPL2+" 06:11:30 I don't mean on the file we ship, but in some other place 06:11:37 ah 06:11:50 We could also make GPL2+ a 0.8 goal 06:11:59 the wiki, a piece of paper taped to someone's fridge, anything 06:12:20 just so we start keeping track of it in some way 06:12:52 maybe put it on mantis, because that's where patches are submitted 06:13:02 yes, good point 06:13:05 (and tiles, too) 06:13:36 kilobyte: couldn't we state on Mantis "all content uploaded here is dual-licensed"? 06:13:57 yeah 06:14:29 can it be said that we reached consensus about the relicensing? 06:15:14 no 06:15:28 we had series of mails sent on c-r-d, in private, discussions on ##crawl-dev, but I'm not sure if we can say "all devs agreed" 06:15:31 but if we go GPL2+, there'll be no complaints, I think 06:15:58 kilobyte: I will thematise (is this a word? in German, it is) this in the upcoming c-r-d 0.8 mail, okay? 06:16:01 -!- gamefreak264 has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:16:34 (not in my dictionary, and I don't recognize it either) 06:17:22 Wiktionary has it, though 06:18:03 thumbs up to wiktionary :) 06:18:49 kilobyte: will also bring up Spider 06:20:31 it's not in a better shape than the other branches, though -- it's only upside is "less to do" 06:20:45 yes, I understood 06:21:36 is Forest planned to be an oocasional alternative to some other branch? 06:22:12 not clear at this point 06:23:14 kilobyte: my cycles-in-the-dungeon-graph idea is not so hot. It's a weird gimmick not producing any real gameplay, but providing lots of trouble (interface, perhaps code). Please ignore it :) 06:24:39 the travel code is simplicistic, but interface could handle it -- I don't think there's anything to be gained from letting the user choose a non-shortest way 06:24:55 kilobyte: ah, okay 06:25:05 So we keep it in the back brain. 06:27:25 is simplicistic in you dictionary ?;) 06:27:31 yes! 06:27:44 at least for a German, the word is good 06:31:30 kilobyte: I asked for randomised spell power for rods. 06:31:45 Later randomisation is okay, of course. I wasn't aware of it. *blush* 06:31:48 galehar: ^ 06:32:07 Ha, I replied before I saw galehar's Mantis mail. 06:32:56 -!- murphy_slaw___ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:33:15 -!- murphy_slaw__ has joined ##crawl-dev 06:37:24 03dpeg * r7c083da8b753 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/database/monspeak.txt: Slight anti-rickrolling. 06:37:27 there are spells which do not randomize, like Passwall, but I'm not sure if there's any on a rod 06:38:50 galehar: I apologise for wrong comment. 06:39:14 kilobyte: no, it's not 06:39:39 yay for fixing references to that damn thing, boo for not rendering them beyond recognition 06:40:07 well, if we change rod to use fixed power, I'm changing the patch for 1880 06:40:16 it will include the fix for 2656 06:40:49 it depends if we want rods to have wildly random damage or not 06:41:19 kilobyte: the current state is okay, imo. (re rickroll) 06:41:59 kilobyte: we should keep rods working as is (i.e. not change functionality much). Later, we will have to re-think misc items, but I am not aware of any concept at this point. 06:46:29 the core concept of rods is ok, IMO... wands that are infinite but can expend only a couple of zaps at a time. It's the spell selection that could use some adjustments. 06:46:41 we did get rid of rods of divination, though 06:48:15 abjuration on rods is probably not that hot, but that's mostly a problem with abjuration itself 06:52:27 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:52:45 kilobyte: I am not sure that the idea of attack spells in wands is so cool... there are attack card effects and wands. 06:52:48 iirc I used abjuring rod decently in one game 06:52:51 where I also had a dmls rod 06:53:02 (until I found those in a book) 06:53:08 I think kilobyte means that Abjuration is overpowered, moreso on a rod :) 06:53:25 yeah 06:53:39 that's partially a problem of summon storms, though 06:56:02 kilobyte: if you add some pointers on the wiki about what layouts you want for Forest, I'd think about it. 07:04:51 dpeg: kind of like the vault forest_paths 07:05:10 which is not that hard to generate if the result is to be static 07:06:23 the problem is, I want to be able to regenerate everything outside LOS (with some margin) and have the result have no distinguishable boundaries 07:11:05 kilobyte: can you quickly hack together a few lines and an example in the wiki? 07:11:18 I will try to come up with something (no guarantees in advance, of course). 07:11:26 hiii 07:11:36 for example, don't bother with colours -- plain code is ok 07:11:38 due: Hi! 07:11:54 I'm thinking of re-implementing monster inventory. 07:12:20 wait until you've seen the 0.8 agenda mail :) 07:12:26 Slots for gloves, boots, helmet and body armour. 07:12:35 And slots for a rod 07:12:47 that way monsters won't drop nice weapons for rods 07:12:50 and they can switch between them 07:12:58 due: sounds good 07:12:59 but wait 07:13:25 I was just going to add a rod slot but I thought, if I do that, I may as well add gloves/boots/helmet/cloak to remove the current hackiness that is nikola/yiuf/maurice/nagae 07:15:18 oh, agenda, awesome 07:15:26 due: a bit late, sorry 07:15:55 No, it's fine. 07:15:58 This is a minor thing. 07:16:42 Can we consider merging malign gateway into trunk? 07:16:50 fine with me, yes 07:17:00 In a branch it's just stagnating 07:17:06 the spell needs a clear goal still, doesn't it? 07:17:19 or is malign gateway the tentacle summoning? 07:17:25 tentacle summon 07:18:56 yes, push into trunk 07:19:01 it is an awesome idea for a spell 07:19:08 * dpeg envies Mu 07:19:11 i agree 07:19:15 ??malign gateway 07:19:16 I don't have a page labeled malign_gateway in my learndb. 07:19:22 Mu canme up with the idea yes? 07:19:29 thought so, yes 07:19:47 https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:magic:summoning:malign_gateway 07:19:55 * due cracks knuckles 07:20:04 ;) 07:20:10 -!- gamefreak264 has joined ##crawl-dev 07:22:21 \o/ 07:22:43 also consider making it a monster spell and giving it to mnoleg :P 07:22:54 ... ahh 07:23:00 Mu_: yes, that is a great second step 07:23:03 last updated before the great spell merge 07:23:15 * due sits and watches the conflicts roll in. 07:23:33 * dpeg sits and watches the children play 07:23:55 (How old do you have to be to make Rolling Stones references?) 07:24:19 dpeg: You'er old enough. 07:24:24 obviously 07:24:39 * dpeg is a Strolling One 07:24:47 :) 07:25:42 Mu_: do you want to do something for 0.8 (on your own I mean :) ? 07:26:23 not sure where needs vaults :P if a new branch goes in i can do vaults for it 07:26:39 yay 07:26:49 always need vaults 07:27:06 was thinking of doing some pan vaults too, regular ones rather than rune ones 07:27:20 There was idle talk of a short Sprint-only tournament... this would need a new Sprint map =) 07:28:09 if it gets a date i'd make one, it was fun doing the last one + i learned a lot about what doesn't work 07:28:43 not before next year, don't worry 07:28:49 oki :) 07:29:31 i guess a few more wizlabs would be nice too :P 07:29:36 always! 07:29:50 Mu_: but there are also some wizlabs which could use more lua power 07:29:55 for example the garden 07:30:18 if I want to add a common scroll, how do I handle the weights in makeitem.cc to keep the total weight of 10000? 07:30:26 I liked the idea that players have to burn down the trees in order to get to the/some loot, with disastrous effects of course 07:30:46 galehar: have to reduce some other scrolls :) 07:31:03 should I steal from detect/remove curse? Seems like I always have too much of those 07:31:12 galehar: for example 07:31:27 what do you add? 07:31:29 so, there's no written rule here? 07:31:50 I'm trying to make a scroll of amnesia to replace selective amnesia 07:32:00 hey, you rock 07:32:05 galehar: no. 07:32:27 Since this is serious business (agenda!), you could ask on crd, so make sure... 07:32:56 well, I know it hasn't been decided how selective amnesia should be replaced 07:33:15 could be a potion of amnesia 07:33:15 but, I think a scroll would be cool 07:33:26 because it's potions that affect the player, mostly, not scrolls 07:33:54 yeah, but scroll of amnesia is a funny tribute/joke to nethack :) 07:34:14 okay, wtf 07:34:24 "it's a reference" shouldn't be a compelling excuse for making less sense than one could :P 07:34:26 scroll is better imo 07:34:42 I'm just going to completelyy ignore the comments on the malign gateway page 07:34:43 because you read scrolls in order to learn Spc 07:34:53 good old OG17 going "omg omg omg it shouldn't be like THAT!" 07:34:56 OG17: :p 07:34:58 due: :) 07:35:19 dpeg, I always thought that was generally because scrolls had spells in them 07:35:21 I took the time to explain my vision of the weapon moves in a lot more detail, but OG17 didn't reply yet 07:35:37 Zaba: yes, but so it makes sense that a scroll can also remove a spell 07:35:41 "Tentacled starspawn", omg. <3 07:36:22 due: from the page? 07:37:08 unless mummies shouldn't be allowed to forget spells it can't be a potion 07:37:14 dpeg, majority of scrolls work on player's equipment, or their surroundings, with only a few exceptions (random uselessness, teleportation, blinking come to mind). Whereas potions affect the player itself in a wide variety of ways. 07:37:17 Zaba: no, there is universally accepted concept for removing spells (once SA is gone), but I am confident enough to state that having both the scroll and the ability to scrap books will be good. 07:37:30 st_: good point, but see ^ 07:38:08 Zaba: to me, potions are more physical and scrolls are more arcane. It would definitely work either way, I just think taht scrolls are a bit better. 07:38:21 hm, ok 07:38:22 yeah, scrolls > potions 07:38:28 -!- bmh has joined ##crawl-dev 07:38:44 -!- Textmode has quit [Quit: Over the ages, man has been certain of a great many things. some of these things were even true.] 07:44:31 due: hey, but the comments of Mu and me are not that bad. 07:45:31 dpeg: They're fine 07:46:04 og17 often has good comments but he just wouldn't let go 07:47:18 -!- bmh_ has joined ##crawl-dev 07:47:18 -!- bmh_ has quit [Changing host] 07:47:18 -!- bmh_ has joined ##crawl-dev 07:50:11 dpeg: I know it isn't making the 0.8 roadmap, but I'd be interested in fixing up wrath 07:50:32 bmh_: did you get the agenda mail? I at least mention wraths there. 07:50:45 Are you familiar with the proposed design on the wiki? 07:52:17 Dpeg: Yes I saw the e-mail and have briefly read the wiki 07:52:28 The most trouble we'll have with adjusting the individual gods's wraths. But given the fact that they're currently quite bad anyway, that should be okay. 07:52:32 bmh_: cool! 07:52:46 * dpeg is very excited, because new wraths will enable new Lugonu :) 07:53:06 Oh? 07:53:22 bmh_: let each of us go over the wiki page carefully then, okay? 07:53:39 For example, casmith789 pointed out that the high-severity wrath for Trog is too much. 07:54:02 Ok. I'll read it on the bus. Back in a bit 07:54:26 [re Lugonu: the god should be about desecrating other gods's altar, getting L piety and the other god's wrath. This will only be possible after wrath overhaul.] 07:54:26 -!- MakMorn has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:55:09 okay, merge done 07:55:13 let's see if it compiles without crashing 07:55:59 due: Is that really so common a problem? 07:56:08 gamefreak264: is what? 07:56:14 crashing compiles 07:56:21 -!- bhickey has joined ##crawl-dev 07:56:24 well, s/crashing/bailing out with a compile error/g 07:56:38 but the merge was monsters* -> monster* and monster-> -> mons-> 07:56:38 due: did you merge by hand? 07:56:46 and The Great Spell Split 07:57:00 I Like Capital Letters 07:57:01 dpeg: thankfully a lot of it merged automatically but I had to do the rest by hand... only took a half hour though 07:57:04 !coffee due 07:57:05 * Henzell hands due a cup of irish coffee, brewed by Ijyb. 07:57:09 :) 07:57:21 Goblin coffee has to be gross! :o 07:57:39 * gamefreak264 isn't sure if Ijyb is a goblin or some other kind of critter, offhand 07:58:07 goblin 07:58:08 <3 07:58:28 -!- bmh_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:13:55 Dpeg: read it. I don't want to implement all the wraths but the mechanics seem fun 08:14:51 ... wow, it actually compiled. 08:15:20 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 08:16:09 -!- murphy_slaw__ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:16:30 -!- murphy_slaw__ has joined ##crawl-dev 08:17:23 bhickey: adding the severity parameter is the important bit 08:17:28 the rest can be done piece by piece 08:18:51 that was relatively painless 08:19:25 cool! 08:19:29 03due 07malign_gateway * r595985e90fd8 10/crawl-ref/ (467 files in 35 dirs): Merge branch 'master' into malign_gateway 08:19:42 bhickey: so the restricted actions approach is okay? 08:20:08 -!- bhickey has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:31:08 Ahhh, he de-rickrolled. 08:31:18 ? 08:31:48 you :) 08:31:50 03due * r0607b1341d10 10/crawl-ref/source/ (18 files): Merge branch 'malign_gateway' 08:31:57 \o/ 08:32:04 okay, malign gateway is in trunk 08:32:19 Mu_: ^ :) 08:33:35 how do you delete a remote branch? 08:33:44 doy? 08:34:41 git push sf :malign_gateway 08:35:09 ie, as if you pushed an empty branch to it 08:35:14 ah, seet 08:36:27 !seen caotto 08:36:27 Sorry dpeg, I haven't seen caotto. 08:36:48 due: he coded the spell, I think. 08:38:03 !seen pointless_ 08:38:04 I last saw pointless_ at Wed Sep 1 00:21:58 2010 UTC (3w 6d 13h 16m 6s ago) quitting with message Ping timeout: 265 seconds. 08:39:37 ??kiku 08:39:38 kikubaaqudgha[1/4]: God specialised for necromancy. Grants an invocation that gives you corpses of level-appropriate monsters -- freshness, power, number of corpses proportional to Invocation skill. 08:39:41 ??vehumet 08:39:42 vehumet[1/4]: The god of conjurers and summoners, and the most reliable way to get their higher books. Gifts {divine gift[7]} at high piety. Provides mana on kills after * piety (including collateral kills), {wizardry} bonus for destructive spells and summonings spells, and extra range and reduced MP cost for destructive spells. 08:39:45 ??vehumet[2] 08:39:46 vehumet[2/4]: Vehumet's wrath can be fairly nasty, scaling up to greater demon summons and banishment. This is presumably to stop people from leaving after the Book of Annihilations|Demonology, at which point his appeal drops sharply. 08:39:49 ??difine gift[7] 08:39:49 I don't have a page labeled difine_gift[7] in my learndb. 08:39:56 ??book of demonology 08:39:56 book of demonology[1/1]: One of the three specially difficult books; requires cast 6, summon 10 to read, or Vehumet worship (he gifts it). Spells: Abjuration, Recall, Call Imp, Summon Demon, Demonic Horde, Summon Greater Demon. Failing to memorize from this book causes summoning miscast effects, including banishment and Fiends. 08:40:13 I think Malign Gateway should go in that 08:40:37 ok 08:40:45 at least for trunk testing 08:40:46 it is a but underpowered anyway, right? 08:40:50 yeah 08:40:53 i'm gonna drop the level down 08:41:02 what is the current level? 08:42:22 9 08:42:37 oh, yes, make it much cheaper 08:42:39 5 for testing? 08:42:42 oh no, 6 08:42:44 ok 08:42:49 It's sum/tloc though. 08:42:53 I think sum should maybe go. 08:42:56 ??book of the warp 08:42:56 book of the warp[1/1]: Spells: Banishment, Phase Shift, Warp Weapon, Dispersal, Portal, Controlled Blink 08:43:09 due: would you add a comment on the spell's wiki page: that it is in, and the current state? 08:43:18 tomorrow 08:43:20 i must go to sleep now 08:43:24 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev 08:43:26 due: I suggested that, but got 10^4 negative comments. 08:43:30 greetings 08:43:32 from? 08:43:32 due: would you do later? You're in the know :) 08:43:34 Pacra: hi 08:43:37 anyone of significance? 08:43:43 due: OG17, but also kilobyte 08:43:55 I am fine with Tloc/Sum btw. 08:44:21 hm. 08:44:29 I suppose it has elements of both 08:44:35 tloc to open the portal, summoning to call somthing out of it 08:44:50 but it doesn't go "poof" when it dies 08:45:32 Mu said that Sum makes the tentacle initially friendly. 08:45:38 ahhh 08:45:41 yeah, tha tmakes sense 08:45:47 it's a matter of whether we want spell schools to be "colors" or descriptors of what the spells do 08:46:16 kilobyte: also a matter of balance 08:46:23 see some attack spells 08:47:01 by colors I mean -- in MTG you have cards that do exactly the same thing but are in directly opposite schools, only the name and description changes 08:47:12 gross 08:48:23 ah 08:48:23 never played that 08:48:26 this is not a bad thing in itself -- MTG has five colors that have very distinct flavours yet are (roughly) balanced 08:48:50 I played Pok´emon with my kids :) 08:50:50 * due GONE. 08:50:55 due: bie! 08:51:47 the very basic functions of MTG colors do not mix except as side side effects 08:51:57 like blue counters, there's hardly any nonblue ones 08:52:51 I am loving the "skill-based dragon form" idea 08:53:19 Pacra: say so on the page 08:53:25 i shall :] 08:53:31 ideally add a new reason why it's good 08:53:31 and put my own suggestions in 08:53:35 yes 08:53:58 also, I have been (for the last 202 games) been playing only draconians (monks, for that matter) 08:54:26 i have quite a few observations regarding the level 7 colour-change 08:54:52 perfect gameplay-flow level to change, though! I'm always amazed at that 08:55:18 just enough to be in mortal danger trying to get a colour in order to get out of mortal danger. 08:58:01 Pacra: there should be a draconian page as well. The species is far from perfect. The only rule is that colour-selection (no matter how) is out of the question. 08:58:34 yeah, I -just- got to OG17's species selection paragraph and blanched 08:59:21 on the other hand, the utility gap between, say, a green or mottled draconian and a grey/red/white draconian has got to go :\ 08:59:50 yes 08:59:58 also, one thing that was puzzled me since 0.3.4 is the inability of draconians 09:00:02 to use bucklers 09:00:10 are they ogre-size to the game? 09:00:43 I'm guessing so, since large shields "look like they would fit you well" 09:01:21 on draconians? I didn't say much of anything there 09:01:39 they are ogre-sized whenever that's a liability and never when it's an advantage 09:01:40 Pacra: yes, that is an inconsistency 09:01:52 I don't know where that comes from (or since when). 09:01:55 I'd seriously consider reducing their size to human-size. here's the reason: 09:02:00 Might've been an oversight. 09:02:19 draconians are relatively mushy characters, even with the decent hp gain 09:02:30 I think they are normal sized. 09:02:31 draconians are almost always casters 09:02:48 that boils down basically to: ogre-sized for armour, human-sized for weapons and EV 09:03:06 draconians being able to wear a non-crippling-spell buckler would go a long way towards survivability 09:03:24 there's a number of races that could use a thorough boost 09:03:31 they coule be allowed to use gloves 09:03:43 especially if you have, say, a draconian capable of casting blade hands in midgame still being two-shotted by an unlucky centaur warrior/yaktaur 09:03:43 ogres, draconians, mummies at the forefront 09:04:42 also, i really dislike giving a second level of elemental resistance to elemental draconians 09:05:01 yes 09:05:35 if that would even be on the table, give a corresponding opposite negative resist at that level as well 09:05:43 if you're going for 'attunement' 09:05:52 but i don't like that entire line of thought anway :] 09:06:56 i like the idea of axing mottled draconians 09:07:34 Pacra: fewer working subspecies is better than current state 09:07:43 Pacra: why? What's wrong with them? 09:07:44 OG17: I replied on the weapon moves page 09:08:04 i shouldn't really comment fully yet, I've only just started poring over B0rsuk's entry 09:08:06 I saw, not sure how to approach that 09:08:22 aha 09:08:28 kilobyte: they have ranged sticky flame, even though we should be nerfing sticky flame to a touch spell ;) 09:08:49 that makes them slightly less underpowered that the rest 09:08:55 hehe 09:09:14 what about making Sticky Flame use the targeting of Flame Tongue? 09:09:16 i still prefer my proposal of making them match actual dragon types 09:09:23 that would be concern if draconians weren't on mummy levels, but since we need to give them all a strong boost.... 09:09:35 Eronarn: what with monster draconians then? 09:09:41 kilobyte: same 09:09:47 it's actually not that much a change 09:10:07 red, white, steam, mottled basically the same 09:10:10 black => storm 09:10:12 real dragons have a strong hierarchy rather than a (very rough) balance 09:10:13 green => swamp 09:10:15 These I call “horribly boring draconians”, 09:10:19 haha, oh borsuk 09:10:33 yes, borsuk is good 09:10:37 much of what you're attributing to me is things that I've already commented on in the opposite 09:10:42 also ugh 09:10:45 love me, not borsuk 09:10:47 kilobyte: we're free to stray from the lore (it is not too far) 09:10:50 the only ones with issues are purple (should be quicksilver), yellow (should be axed), shadow (should exist!!!) 09:10:52 -!- murphy_slaw__ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:11:00 and grey (imo make them iron draconians) 09:11:05 steam dragons being worthless, gold dragons being around liches 09:11:11 -!- murphy_slaw__ has joined ##crawl-dev 09:11:13 Eronarn: need to keep yellow for monster drac purposes 09:11:30 kilobyte: well, just because dragons come in different strengths doesn't mean draconians have to 09:11:33 one thing that has boggled my mind is that draconians don't have a glove slot. 09:11:43 which is absolutely fine! ...but what makes them not have a glove slot? 09:11:48 perhaps they have.... claws? 09:11:54 one would imagine their hands don't fit 09:12:06 yet I see not even claws 1 09:12:12 Pacra: ^ 09:12:25 claws one would be throwing them a bone. 09:12:31 dpeg: i don't think we really need yellow monster dracs tbh 09:12:32 gloves too! 09:12:37 Eronarn: oh, we do 09:12:42 if we really, really, really need an acid monster in zot we can just come up with something new 09:12:43 players love them 09:12:49 yellow monster draconians are very important! 09:12:49 or use acid blobs 09:13:19 * kilobyte hates, hates, hates acid blobs in Zot. 09:13:36 I believe that player Dr/monster Dr symmetry here is more important than drac/dragon symmetry 09:13:41 (and elsewhere else too, but they don't spawn outside Slime, where you don't bother with non-arts) 09:13:44 But neither of these is the crucial point. 09:13:46 dpeg: you were looking for me? 09:13:55 drmo is already a common player choice, it doesn't realy need to be further encouraged with claws 09:14:03 bhaak: aren't you in Berlin yet? 09:14:04 also yes there's no reason at all dragons need to mirror draconians 09:14:05 OG17: yeah 09:14:14 OG17: yeah too 09:14:21 borsuk's merging of pale and grey drac is a wonderful idea 09:14:23 they don't need to, but i would prefer them to 09:14:40 Eronarn: but that's a minor aesthetic detail 09:14:51 Pacra: pale are all-magical, grey all-physical 09:15:02 er, purple I meant 09:15:03 sorry 09:15:08 dpeg: well, for some of them (where it shouldn't be a contentious change, then ;)) 09:15:16 both are all-boring ;] 09:15:28 and the ones where it's more than just a minor change are dracs i have problems with anyways 09:16:11 exactly what is wrong with yellow dracs? 09:16:26 OG17: Eronarn does not like that they don't have a dragon counterpart 09:16:30 dpeg: yes, i am in berlin. but you know, even if it sometimes looks like this, Germany isn't a thirld world country. They have internet connections here! 09:16:56 then clearly we need a dragon with an acid beam 09:16:59 perhaps sticky 09:17:04 dpeg: no, actually 09:17:08 i dislike the 'spit acid whenever' 09:17:09 bhaak: I heard about these. But shouldn't you be supposed to hang out in museums and cafes? 09:17:24 -!- MakMorn has joined ##crawl-dev 09:17:25 The acid should damage monster armours btw. 09:17:42 Eronarn: why? It's what makes them stand out 09:17:44 it works counter to the other dracs and encourages just vomiting on all enemies (especially since using it doesn't use up your XP) 09:17:50 this is crawl, not IVAN 09:18:04 ??pm 09:18:04 OG17: It would stand out if one of the dracs had disintegration breath, too 09:18:04 private messages[1/1]: If you need to read all of a topic, use these (/msg henzell ?? foo) instead, so you don't choke up discussion on the whole channel. Henzell will respond in private. Henzell will also respond to some ! (foo) commands in private, Gretell will respond to @? in private, and Sequell will respond to !lg and !lm. 09:18:12 OG17: from borsuk's entry 09:18:14 bhaak: do you have all days planned already? 09:18:16 "Yellow is pitiful. It doesn't punch through AC, it doesn't deal nice damage, it just makes you hungry. " 09:18:31 :) 09:18:32 he's right in many ways. by early midgame, it's useless 09:18:50 Pacra: that's a separate topic: should breath scale, and how much so? 09:18:51 dpeg: no cafes in this weather. but we've just come back from an extended shopping tour 09:19:08 dpeg: no, not all days are planned yet 09:19:12 Swiss plundering Berlin, I knew it. 09:19:14 ah, I saw it in the main draconian page. 09:19:43 bhaak: evenings of Fr-Mo are best with me. 09:20:15 dpeg: with jpeg's mail I think Fr would be best 09:20:28 alright, I will come from the train station :) 09:20:43 dpeg: erm, Saturday, she said 09:20:52 ah 09:20:55 new combo! FrMo 09:21:16 pacra, an ability that reliably gets you through the early midgame is very worthwhile 09:21:32 oh, are you back in europe, dpeg? 09:21:56 yes, for the whole year already :) 09:22:04 also he basically suggests they get disintegration breath, ha 09:22:07 that's true! it is one of the better breath attacks, og17. I'm not completely down on it; I'm working on a yellow drac as we speak 09:22:17 (not that disintegration breath would be silly in itself really) 09:22:29 sounds nethackish :] 09:22:38 ah, i missed this :) 09:22:50 comparing almost every drac breath to mottled/green breath, though.. 09:23:16 it's like level 2/3 spell level breath compared to level 6/7 spell level breath 09:23:41 i don't like that gap in randomized colour selection! 09:23:53 then again, this has been iterated by borsuk among others on the page 09:24:05 and i haven't even finished reading yet :\ back to the page. 09:24:18 should I move the drac page from brainstorm to feedback? 09:24:28 or does no one care 09:24:33 OG17: we are trying to combine these two 09:24:50 i.e. get rid of the distinction between Feedback and BRainstorm 09:24:57 that'd make sense 09:25:04 ...may i humbly ask what the difference is 09:25:05 ? 09:25:10 should be just called Discussion 09:25:16 Pacra: old stuff vs new stuff 09:25:24 ah, thanks. 09:25:32 but it is hard to maintain the distinction and better to lump them together 09:25:36 yes, with the idea that we had so many suggestions that were 'code something new' 09:25:40 however, that wasn't clear to us a year ago 09:25:41 they tend to overlap anyway 09:25:44 rather than 'make this change' 09:26:14 luckily, people don't seem to mind cluttered pages as much as i thought they would 09:26:27 even the gigantic ones are decently commented on (which is why they are gigantic, i guess) 09:27:09 eronarn, since i'm a greenhorn at these pages, which are the most popular? 09:27:16 just wanted to get some reading material suggestions 09:27:47 Pacra: there's a view recent edits page, you know 09:27:56 lets you see where people have been talking recently 09:28:09 I know that, but I kinda wanted to know what you thought was interesting. :3 09:28:11 pages i like: jiyva, DS muts (probably deprecated now), new monsters 09:28:17 cool! thanks 09:28:18 my new spell page 09:28:42 Pacra: go to the 0.8 page and use the links there, I'd suggest 09:29:42 scroll of amnesia is finished. Should the patch include the removal of selective amnesia from the books? 09:30:01 yes, please 09:30:35 scroll of amnesia: game ends, immediately restarts as a wanderer 09:30:45 galehar: what is the scroll's rarity? (compare with other scrolls) 09:31:21 common, like enchant weapon, fear,... 09:31:29 ok 09:31:46 i hope Maud drops this scroll 09:31:59 There is the additional option of forgetting spells by losing a book. 09:32:02 like you suggested on the wiki 09:32:06 yes 09:32:14 galehar: this would give players more choices... 09:32:48 But that's harder to code than the ?SA. For example, we need an interface for forgetting from books. 09:32:49 the icon is rubbish though 09:32:52 :) 09:33:00 'losing a book'? like, consume book wiht spell X to forget spell X? 09:33:02 This will be fixed in no time. 09:33:05 Eronarn: ye 09:33:06 s 09:33:11 I hijacked the silence icon and changed it a bit 09:33:18 a good start 09:33:28 dpeg: this is a potential problem because of how books spawn in game 09:33:37 why? 09:33:43 once you start getting dupes, they're worthless, and you will get a LOT of dupes 09:33:45 The books you lose count as read. 09:34:13 Well, they'd be less worthless in the future. 09:34:48 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 09:34:58 right, but only late game, whereas imo it should be the reverse (should have more desire for amnesia in extended endgame than midgame) 09:35:17 it is much better than now 09:35:38 Eronarn is always going for the moon. :) 09:35:40 well, i think just amnesia scrolls is fine for it, i mean 09:35:57 books in addition just means cheaper amnesia for people who no longer need books 09:36:02 (only endgamers) 09:36:22 Eronarn: books also mean that players have some flexibility early on, whcih is good 09:37:32 I'm only removing the spell from the books. 09:37:33 yes, later on players have full flexibility (with some limits! i.e. not tactically) but that's same as now 09:37:37 galehar: ok 09:37:41 I guess cleaning up the code will come later 09:39:52 does that mean the book of wizardry will only have 3 spells? :( 09:40:05 oh summon elemental, 4 then 09:40:33 a bit of a boring book now though 09:42:05 and a very common one 09:42:06 MarvinPA: if the book is too bad, we can remove it 09:42:17 or add some spells to it 09:42:22 yes 09:42:27 one of those would be cool 09:43:13 not sure what would fit in it, it's flavoured towards general utility spells i suppose but those are gradually being removed :P 09:43:18 never was a fan of that book 09:43:18 (not that it's a bad thing) 09:44:16 i'm not a fan of that or of power 09:44:26 the newer books are so much better thematic/composed 09:44:29 burglary, dreams 09:44:32 probably because they're just so common 09:44:41 yeah, i like the new suggested books on the wiki as well 09:45:30 as we add new books, we're free to remove old books 09:45:33 no nostalgia 09:45:41 yeah, it's annoying how often you get power and wizardry 09:45:58 But they burn so nicely! 09:46:03 -!- monky has joined ##crawl-dev 09:47:27 haha 09:47:37 "Slight anti-rickrolling" is the best commit name ever 09:48:58 dpeg: can we reduce the level of ignite poison yet? :) 09:49:25 Have to ask someone else, I never used it. 09:49:48 oh, you should give it a try, it's a fun spell 09:49:58 yes, I think so 09:50:27 i think it could afford not to burn up all your items so transmuters could actually pick it up 09:50:47 it's a very fun way to clear snake:5 though :) 09:51:12 MarvinPA: if the spell is cheap/good enough, I'd like it better with this tactical drawback (no scrolls) 09:51:34 well it doesn't burn scrolls, but potions of poison and such 09:51:44 whatever :) 09:51:48 so transmuters who would use things like evaporate wouldn't be able to take advantage of it 09:51:53 it could also be a poison spell instead of fire, as fire casters don't have problems setting things on fire without it 09:51:55 without dropping all their potions out of LOS or something 09:52:12 anyway, ---> wiki 09:53:58 replace selective amnesia with a scroll of amnesia (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2657) by galehar 09:54:21 galehar: is the spell used anywhere else? (e.g. Sif) 09:55:07 well, yeah, the scroll, the spell and sif ability all call the same function. This one isn't going anywhere 09:55:16 but there are other occurence of the spell 09:55:24 miscasts? 09:55:32 like an exception to number of spells 09:55:39 ah 09:56:53 yay @ malign gateway :) 09:57:24 well, that's about it. 09:57:40 galehar: this could be removed, too 09:57:45 I can try to clean it from the code, while keeping sif and scroll 09:57:51 yes please 09:57:58 ok, I'm on it :) 10:04:50 03dolorous * r98cba81361fe 10/crawl-ref/source/ (enum.h godabil.cc mon-place.cc tag-version.h tags.cc): Fix binary compatibility breakage. 10:05:01 03dolorous * ra29408259c4d 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-stuff.cc: Fix warning. 10:05:27 Mu_: malign gateway? 10:06:06 https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:magic:summoning:malign_gateway 10:06:08 now in master 10:06:53 is it on cdo? i tried searching for it in spell lookup but it didn't appear 10:07:10 MarvinPA: not yet -- it is trunk for a few hours 10:07:14 aha ok 10:09:23 -!- bmh has quit [Quit: bmh] 10:10:09 -!- Hehfiel has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:11:08 what level is it now? 10:12:14 6 10:12:41 that's a pretty cool spell idea; probably needs some refinement work though 10:14:53 i think what i might actually do is tie it into tloc by making it a beast that hunts translocational energies 10:15:19 and from that point on, any time something on screen makes tloc smoke 10:15:26 -!- eith_ has joined ##crawl-dev 10:15:28 a portal might open nearby 10:15:58 thus, 'just' casting it doesn't do much - you then need to either blink/tele/banish your enemies, or do so yourself 10:16:20 (would work with golubria and distortion too) 10:16:35 this is too complicated 10:17:04 dpeg: the spell as proposed in the wiki is too boring imo. i love the flavor but mechanically the description doesn't do it for me 10:17:13 and i agree with the commentors that it doesn't feel tied into tloc enough 10:18:08 it's pretty exciting compared to most other summoning spells :P 10:18:24 yes, those could certainly use some work ;) 10:19:34 Eronarn: it is always too boring for you 10:19:38 see "moon" ^ 10:19:50 moon? 10:20:09 16:35 <@dpeg> Eronarn is always going for the moon. :) 10:20:15 oh :) 10:20:27 i happen to have a vested interest in things from beyond the stars 10:20:34 (i have a cthulhu mythos tattoo, you know) 10:21:05 actually, it is a less-than-300-year-old reference, but we could steal the gimmick of the hounds of tindalos 10:21:11 The Gateway is much more interesting than many other spells, thematically, visually and tactically. 10:21:33 I believe that it should only work when the player is near the portal. Else the tentacle will recede. 10:21:41 they are creatures that hunt through time for people that have disturbed it, but there is a catch 10:21:47 This is simple, thematic and avoids scumming. 10:22:01 they can only manifest their gateways near angles, because they travel through the 'angles' of time rather than the 'curves' like humans do 10:22:09 thus, they show up in corners of rooms only 10:22:20 in a horror story this is just a weird/creepy behavior; in a roguelike this is actually an interesting mechanical effect 10:24:08 but if we proposed a spell where summons only appear in corners, you'd say "too boring" 10:24:15 well, that depends what the summons are 10:24:18 -!- MakMorn has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:24:27 I also believe that the tentacle should only be placable in the open 10:24:30 a one-time summon that then walks away from the corner? yes, that is a bit boring 10:24:49 an anchored monster, or a point that then spawns monsters? more interesting 10:24:52 03dolorous * rdc3a55ecaf0e 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-data.h: Remove unneeded blank lines. 10:25:07 having the tentacle only work when you're near it sounds good, in that you could actually fight alongside it 10:25:09 i am all for restrictions on spells, it doesn't always have to be 'add more', can be 'take away' too 10:25:21 most summons, it's optimal to just summon up a storm then leave 10:25:32 MarvinPA: yeah, one of the reasons i'm not a fan of summons :) 10:25:40 _The portal closes, your demonic tentacle is severed _Your demonic tentacle writhes! _Your demonic tentacle writhes! Your demonic tentacle writhes! _Your demonic tentacle dies! 10:25:42 hehe :P 10:25:55 it is sad that so few games have interesting summoners 10:26:32 it could be fun to have some summon/ench spells 10:26:37 spell doesn't currently create a portal tile, also has no description etc 10:26:50 D&D - not enough room to specialize in summoning, and very broken summons, such that it is often better to prepare a summon (which has spells of its own) than prepare those summons yourself 10:26:57 FF games - summons are just one-shot superweapons 10:26:58 where the summoners cast buffs on you or debuffs on enemies 10:27:14 maximum number of spell is 21 now? I thought it was 20. 10:27:44 casmith789: i would love to see a sum/hex (if we do the ench=>hex/bene split) spell that summons a parasite inside an opponent 10:27:45 it goes up to 't' i think? 10:27:47 ??spell slots 10:27:47 spell levels[1/2]: Sum of levels of all memorized spells must always be less than or equal to XL + Spellcasting * 2 - 1. (ignoring draining) 10:27:51 ??spell slots[2] 10:27:51 I don't have a page labeled spell_slots[2] in my learndb. 10:27:54 oops 10:27:56 ??spell levels[2] 10:27:56 spell levels[2/2]: The maximum number of simultaneously known spells is 21. If you somehow know 21 but still have 4 spell levels remaining, you may still also learn selective amnesia, but bear in mind that you are insane. 10:27:57 that. 10:28:00 :) 10:28:03 -!- ortoslon has joined ##crawl-dev 10:28:03 -!- murphy_slaw__ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:28:04 oh ok 10:28:17 -!- murphy_slaw__ has joined ##crawl-dev 10:28:23 also cool would be a sum spell that summons a very tiny, annoying imp that buzzes about the enemy's head 10:28:33 (D&D had a spell like this, but with a *bee*) 10:29:46 -!- Hehfiel has joined ##crawl-dev 10:30:08 i wonder how a guardian spirit summon would work - it only works if you're wearing something that gives Spirit Shield (not necessarily amulet), but while you are, damage goes to it first 10:30:13 rather than to your MP 10:30:56 or maybe it drains all your MP when you cast it, and MP doesn't regen while it's alive, but it is more powerful the more MP you had when you cast it 10:31:15 the latter is probably less scummable 10:31:27 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 10:31:41 especially since we have the soft MP cap, so we know the range of valid MP is limited, easier to balance around 10:37:53 -!- MakMorn has joined ##crawl-dev 10:47:28 -!- bmh has joined ##crawl-dev 10:48:50 back 10:49:00 Mu_: yes, I was thinking of something like this 10:49:22 and fighting alongside summons will have to come anyway 10:49:28 we don't want hiding 10:51:06 for moving summons, a simple way would be that they stop working properly without your careful supervision 10:52:34 dpeg: the overall theme I see with the wrath overhaul is that we want it to be unscummable 10:52:39 !tell kilobyte I had a radical idea I wanted to share with you: what if we removed, or at least restricted, numerical randart properties? 10:52:39 dpeg: OK, I'll let kilobyte know. 10:52:55 bmh: that is one point. The other is to make it scaleable. 10:53:07 -!- eith has quit [Quit: sleep] 10:53:12 (using the severity parameter) 10:55:59 well more than just severity, but severity and appropriateness 10:56:13 no one cares if Sif confuses you when there aren't any monsters about 10:56:20 dpeg: summons are already kind of annoying without your careful supervision ;) i'm not sure they need even more of that 10:56:56 bmh: yes. We need severity as a measure, and adapted wrath effects. 10:57:10 Summon cap 10:57:23 fixed number, I suggest 8 10:57:26 !seen sorear 10:57:26 I last saw sorear at Wed Aug 4 02:29:48 2010 UTC (7w 6d 13h 27m 38s ago) parting ##crawl with message chanpart. 10:57:33 Would be interesting to hear his number. 10:59:41 dpeg: i think 8 is too many, personally 10:59:45 ??stoneskin 10:59:45 stoneskin[1/1]: 8+2d(power) (more) turns of +2 + earth/5 AC. Incompatible with Ozos, Stonemail, all transforms except Statue Form and Blade Hands, and being undead. Sorry, Crawl doesn't want you to have much AC. However, unlike Ozocubu's Armour, Stoneskin will work with heavy armour. In {statue form}, stoneskin adds 1 + earth/4 AC. 11:00:04 how would that work with spells like butterflies 11:00:06 and demonic horde? 11:00:17 i would rather see summons take up maxMP, also 11:00:22 so you have to invest your power in them 11:00:48 that sounds interesting 11:01:04 would there be any way to abjure them and get your maxmp back 11:01:35 monky: it would be interesting if you could do this with some summons, but not others 11:02:04 dpeg: I've cleaned selective amnesia from the code and updated the patch 11:02:14 and now I'm leaving 11:02:16 bye ! 11:03:07 8 is a good number, not many summons 11:03:14 galehar: thanks and bye! 11:03:26 8 is just enough to surround the player with summons 11:03:32 of course 11:03:41 -!- galehar has quit [Quit: Page closed] 11:03:47 I wonder about butterflies, too 11:03:53 demonic horde more so 11:03:57 since they can actually attack 11:03:57 the point is that 8 is low enough that you'll have to upgrade your summons throughout the game 11:04:03 dpeg: the issue with 8 is that it gives enough buffer that when one or two of your summons die, you can still easily/painlessly re-summon 11:04:27 Eronarn: 8 is not sufficient for spamming 11:05:17 dpeg: i disagree; 8 is a lot 11:05:43 especially with summons that summon more than one creature, to help you refill 11:05:43 you often face much more monsters at a single point in time, though 11:05:54 I don't think it makes sense to argue about this without extensive playtesting 11:06:35 yes 11:06:59 The combination of summon cap and summons not working (well) out of sight will change summon play considerably. 11:06:59 the specific number shouldn't be too hard to change if the capping mechanic is implemented... 11:07:05 Zaba: it will definitely cut back on certain excesses of summoners - can't fill an entire room with 8 - but 8 is still enough to fight at the edge of a corridor pretty much the same way one would today 11:07:25 Eronarn: summoners only get half xp 11:07:31 it is okay that they can hang back 11:07:35 just not go overboard with that 11:07:57 you also have summon greater demon, which summons lesser demons, which can summon even lesser demons, would that be subject to the cap? 11:08:00 the whole point of being a summoner is that you delegate 11:08:05 The alternative summon cap idea was that the number depends on Sum skill, but I am not sure. 11:08:06 dpeg: thought: what if the XP loss scaled with the number of summons you're using? 11:08:13 a hard cap would make summon greater demon better, relatively, but I'm generally not a fan (of hard caps) 11:08:14 MarvinPA: good question 11:08:20 with that in mind, making their gameplay actually interesting sounds like a serious challenge 11:08:41 also, i am not sure i'd base the cap off of sum skill 11:08:41 I guess we just don't want summon storms. 11:08:52 instead, i might make it a hard cap, but make items that can boost it 11:08:53 although summon greater demon would already be a lot more dangerous to use if you had to be within LOS to supervise it, considering they go hostile 11:08:58 They trivialise everything (no matter if monsters or players are doing it) 11:09:01 for example, +2 concurrent summons while wielding a staff of summoning 11:09:25 has a per-spell cap been considered? 11:09:32 yes 11:09:41 but that's much harder to grasp 11:09:51 "seven butterflies, but only six spammals" etc 11:09:53 yes 11:10:30 another (probably dumb) idea: no hard cap, but make success of successfully summoning allies decrease with number of active summons 11:11:27 that's actually interesting 11:11:28 i think diminishing returns is better and easier to make sense of than a hard cap, personally 11:12:06 monky: i think this could work well if it represented this on the z screen, by actually reducing your effective success rate, same as if your intelligence had lowered or whatever 11:12:31 one problem I see is distinguishing between summoning failures and true miscasts 11:12:50 no need to distinguish, if it is an actual decrease in skill 11:13:04 could just decrease effective spellpower as you make more summons 11:13:11 multi summons would not only be less success, but more actual miscasts too 11:13:19 so new ones would be very short-lived or less likely to be friendly 11:13:22 i am not a fan of an actual separate check, beyond normal spell failure, to determine this 11:13:33 yeah that works I guess 11:13:38 summoning miscasts are very very nasty though 11:13:49 ..which is why I was concernet 11:13:50 MarvinPA: as they should be - this is classic for tales of summoning 11:13:50 d 11:14:12 checking your spell success after every summon doesn't sound fun 11:14:24 to ensure you won't create a perma1 or banish yourself or something 11:14:31 (if we go through with this change, it would be nice to A) fix the text descriptors to correlate to reality B) maybe give a warning when trying to cast a spell you're likely to fail at, configurable via options file) 11:15:03 (B) would especially be nice given forgetting things like int drain, putting on heavy armor/a shield, taking off wizardry) 11:16:03 all of this is secondary 11:16:06 imo 11:16:20 dpeg: well, it's implementation details of a specific method to fix sum - but sum should still be fixed :) 11:16:33 It is the question how to cut down on mass summons. And there are several potential solutions of which we'll pick one. 11:17:08 I told you the basics: summoners should be near the summons (no matter what happens if not) and summons should be limited (no matter how for now). 11:17:51 will either be extended to non-spell summons? 11:17:57 not sure 11:18:04 the others are less problematic, I guess 11:18:19 Would be good to start with the casters, as those are definitely problematic. 11:18:48 demonic guardians going hostile if unobserved would be pretty horible for unspoiled ds players 11:19:03 monky: there are many solutions for that 11:19:15 they could be just neutral if you're away for not-too-long 11:20:13 How did we get into this? Ah, Eronarn said that MG is too boring a summoning spell. 11:20:18 -!- gamefreak264 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:21:04 dpeg: one thought: if the cap on summons comes via them consuming max MP, summons dying/dissipating inside LOS could give you back your max MP instantly, otherwise, it regenerates slowly 11:21:45 (say, like a rod - a chance that your MP regen goes to upping it instead of upping your MP) 11:21:50 yes, thought the same. but was too lazy to type it 11:22:16 no replies on the agenda -- folks are sleeping or not interested :) 11:22:20 between that, and summons going 'wild' outside LOS, should be a strong incentive to stay and fight 11:22:31 though i think the nature of them going 'wild' should depend on the kind of summon 11:22:35 yes 11:22:41 with cheaper ones being milder 11:22:48 this also helps the issue monky brought up 11:23:11 you'll learn that OOS summons are bad, in a forgiving manner 11:23:20 dpeg: is agenda on the mailing list? 11:23:39 thanks for the email dpeg! 11:23:57 ortoslon: yes 11:24:09 ortoslon: didn't you receive it?? 11:24:35 it would be nice if shouted commands, even if you can't see your summon, also counted somewhat for the timer 11:24:37 no, i'm just not subscribed :) 11:25:16 i'd also like to see this used as a chance to make the demonic summons differentiated better 11:25:30 should have more drawbacks, imo 11:26:30 (interesting drawback for shadow creatures would be that they're illusions that instantly wink out of existence if they can't see either their summoner or any hostile creature) 11:26:42 for example 11:26:44 --> wiki 11:26:58 I'll be away for a while 11:27:02 sure, sure 11:27:04 i even have a tab open for it 11:27:09 ;) 11:27:45 make new page or is there some old one? 11:28:07 oh, https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:magic:summoning:feedback&s[]=summoning 11:29:58 dpeg: in your agenda, you mentioned 'manpower shortage'. Just wondering, are you familiar with 'adding manpower to a late software project makes it later'? 11:30:25 bhaak: yes, crawl needs more female developers. 11:30:59 * bhaak is certain he didn't write 'menpower' 11:32:08 bhaak: we are not adding coders to a late project 11:34:37 dpeg: that's not the point :) just that if you would add new coders, they of course need time to get productive (although that time is usually hidden for OSS projects as coders familiarize themselves with the code _before_ getting into the devteam). and that the communication overheads increases faster the more people are working on the same code 11:36:25 I was just wondering how much more coders the current crawl project management style could cope with. 11:44:10 you know, Summon Elephant would be pretty awesome, with trample in place 11:44:16 would be hard to build a wall with them 11:44:24 since they would shove right into the crowd 11:48:38 -!- bmh_ has joined ##crawl-dev 11:48:39 -!- bmh has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:48:39 -!- bmh_ is now known as bmh 11:58:25 https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:magic:summoning:feedback#eronarn 12:02:09 -!- bmh has quit [Quit: bmh] 12:04:04 -!- murphy_slaw___ has joined ##crawl-dev 12:07:09 -!- murphy_slaw__ has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:32:13 -!- upsy has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:36:39 -!- murphy_slaw___ has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi] 12:39:34 zigrobin (L27 HuWz) ASSERT(slot != NUM_MONSTER_SLOTS) in 'mon-act.cc' at line 1453 failed. (Zig:25) 12:41:32 03dolorous * r5e3cbdbdd2df 10/crawl-ref/source/ (religion.cc religion.h): Move check for transformed players' joining gods into its own function. 12:42:28 zigrobin (L27 HuWz) ASSERT(slot != NUM_MONSTER_SLOTS) in 'mon-act.cc' at line 1453 failed. (Zig:25) 12:42:59 -!- ortoslon has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:05:31 -!- Vandal has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:09:43 -!- paxed has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:11:36 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 13:40:33 -!- paxed has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:42:14 -!- paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 14:18:06 !lm * crash 14:18:06 166. [2010-09-28] zigrobin the Farming Immaculate (L27 HuWz) ASSERT(slot != NUM MONSTER SLOTS) in 'mon-act.cc' at line 1453 failed on turn 340148. (Zig:25) 14:28:03 -!- bmh has joined ##crawl-dev 14:28:07 -!- bmh has quit [Changing host] 14:28:07 -!- bmh has joined ##crawl-dev 14:28:26 do we have a mechanism for giving spiffy weapons to monsters while denying them to players upon death? 14:29:56 like those with which summoned monsters come, but on permanent foes? 14:30:05 yeah 14:30:42 i did that once on my own, just by destroying the equipment upon death 14:30:58 i don't really remember 14:37:01 does mennas not leave behind a weapon? i seem to recall that 14:51:48 -!- Galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 14:53:35 mennas leaves a weapon 14:53:40 not sure why he wouldn't 15:07:48 -!- Wensley has joined ##crawl-dev 15:07:55 -!- Danei has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:11:50 -!- Danei has joined ##crawl-dev 15:13:08 -!- upsy has joined ##crawl-dev 15:13:58 -!- bmh has quit [Quit: bmh] 15:14:55 -!- elliptic has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:18:15 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 15:19:38 back 15:25:05 -!- Vandal has joined ##crawl-dev 15:26:54 -!- syllogism has quit [] 15:27:06 dpeg: is it you that said somewhere that dig is too cheap? 15:27:27 I believe that was Keskitalo 15:28:21 ok. I think that came up in one of the mantis about slime walls 15:30:02 Galehar: keskitalo thinks that Dig is not a particularly good spell, and I think the samwe. 15:30:28 I have an idea to change it 15:30:37 I've put it on the wiki on the spell noise page 15:31:12 oh, rob used the word cheap and evktalo said it should be removed 15:35:21 cool 15:35:45 monky: I have some hope the spell mechanic can be changed so as to save the spell. 15:35:49 Let's see what Galehar has :) 15:35:53 !seen kilobyte 15:35:54 I last saw kilobyte at Tue Sep 28 14:15:03 2010 UTC (6h 20m 51s ago) saying sorry on ##crawl-dev. 15:37:53 Galehar: good idea! 15:38:03 The only problem is that it might be a tad heavy on the interface. 15:38:12 otoh, it will use directional targeting, which is good. 15:38:14 zigrobin (L27 HuWz) ASSERT(slot != NUM_MONSTER_SLOTS) in 'mon-act.cc' at line 1453 failed. (Zig:25) 15:39:52 you mean it will be tedious to dig long tunnels? 15:40:18 I put a comment about that below your proposal 15:41:49 maybe it can be macro'd 15:42:20 Galehar: cannot rely on macros 15:42:24 I am just commenting, too 15:43:21 zigrobin (L27 HuWz) ASSERT(slot != NUM_MONSTER_SLOTS) in 'mon-act.cc' at line 1453 failed. (Zig:25) 15:45:28 done 15:48:57 interesting 15:49:07 zigrobin (L27 HuWz) ASSERT(slot != NUM_MONSTER_SLOTS) in 'mon-act.cc' at line 1453 failed. (Zig:25) 15:49:08 and if you melt too much rock, it creates lava :) 15:50:37 zigrobin (L27 HuWz) ASSERT(slot != NUM_MONSTER_SLOTS) in 'mon-act.cc' at line 1453 failed. (Zig:25) 15:50:43 hmm, who's playing zigrobin? 15:50:43 kilobyte: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 15:50:54 kilobyte: most recently me 15:51:02 I got the first two crashes though 15:51:04 you need to kill a specific merfolk 15:51:23 he has a staff he wants to throw 15:51:37 currently I'm hoping to run around and leave the level without killing stuff 15:52:01 if I can do so without going in LoF of that merfolk, that should work 15:52:12 and we can't fix this on CDO because dolorous just increased the major save tag 15:52:35 or try to firestorm his butt 15:53:09 would sanctuary help 15:53:23 yay, made it 15:54:04 -!- eith_ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:02:02 !lg zigrobin -tv 16:02:02 43. zigrobin, XL18 NaFE, T:79479 requested for FooTV. 16:03:05 !seen Pacra 16:03:05 I last saw Pacra at Tue Sep 28 20:56:25 2010 UTC (6m 40s ago) saying ??silver on ##crawl. 16:03:13 Pacra: waiting.... =) 16:03:41 haha! I finished reading, now I'm just going to (try to) ascend this draconian monk before responding 16:03:46 :) 16:03:54 good luck, not that you need it 16:03:58 serial winners :) 16:04:21 pshh, I'm rubbish on this class combo 16:05:13 -!- bmh has joined ##crawl-dev 16:05:54 Monsters interacting with magical staves crashes the game (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2658) by st 16:05:54 dpeg: "I want certain scrolls to function in a slightly 16:05:54 different fashion." 16:05:59 Can you link me or elaborate? 16:06:15 bmh: I can explain. 16:06:46 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 16:07:12 If you follow Ashenzari, you will want Remove Curse scrolls to _not_ uncurse all cursed items. You will not want Enchant Foo scrolls to uncurse items. It will be a bit easier if Curse Foo scrolls curse all relevant items. 16:08:05 okay? 16:08:11 dpeg: occasionally you may want enchant to uncurse items, but obviously not every time 16:08:25 casmith789: more often you will not want that 16:08:31 probably, yes 16:08:41 and there are plenty of Remove Curse scrolls, but rather few Curse Foo scrolls 16:08:54 ah okay 16:09:04 bmh: the terminology change "cursed" --> "blessed"/"sacred" makes these changes very natural. 16:09:15 sure 16:09:25 acquirement should give cursed gear ;-) 16:09:34 good point, would you add it? 16:09:59 on the wiki? sure 16:10:03 thanks 16:10:09 I love little details like that. 16:10:13 will ashenzari gift scroll of curse ? 16:10:20 yes, I think he should 16:10:29 but if/how often should depend on playtesting 16:11:11 yeah, i thought the idea on the wiki of it being an altar prayer might actually work 16:11:25 or perhaps just if you're not wearing any cursed equipment, to give you the hint :P 16:11:55 good idea 16:12:02 --> wiki please 16:12:09 heh, ok 16:12:20 one sec, I don't want to merge conflict 16:12:26 Eronarn: I am editing your Sum comments, okay? Good structure, but I think I can improve on the presentation. 16:12:43 go ahead 16:16:33 dpeg: sure, i was trying to get it over with fast 16:23:41 dpeg: Is there any place for a scroll like random uselessness, but not quite so useless? 16:24:05 yes, of course 16:24:23 scroll of random usefulness 16:24:42 thought about it, but couldn't come up with a really good concept 16:24:50 mini-acquirement? 16:24:59 xom card 16:25:13 oh geeze 16:25:14 like, makes a piece of food or a couple of bolts 16:27:15 I was thinking that it would be very amusing to have a pack of four neutral @'s called "Investigators" accompanied by a 'h' and located on a dungeon level that they have no business being on. 16:27:33 should ashenzari wrath cause map rot like selective amnesia or orange crystal statues? it's not that debilitating, but it's flavorful 16:27:54 Galehar: your scroll of amnesia breaks save compat badly in several places 16:27:54 Wensley: maprot == bad 16:27:55 Wensley: annoying the player, while amusing, is bothersome 16:27:59 even when it is flavourful 16:28:12 Wensley: we took pains to make maprot work in labs 16:28:17 bmh: sounds like a vault 16:28:26 maprot is bad in general, even in labs 16:28:42 monky: Sounds like my plan would have worked too if it weren't for those meddlesome kids! 16:28:47 since having a bot that displays the rotted area for you would give you an advantage 16:29:02 yeah, termrecs :P 16:29:05 depg: what about making mapping under ash wrath work as mapping in the abyss works, where you immediately forget where you've been? 16:29:12 labs shift but not near as fast as the maprot afaik 16:29:33 Wensley: That's just annoying. It breaks auto-travel 16:29:36 lab shifts without maprot i feel would be weird 16:29:43 but, eh. 16:30:16 I like knowing generally where e.g. the center is if I get teleported away or something 16:30:26 (or teleport self because of dead end) 16:30:37 even if I don't know the paths there 16:30:43 (because they changed) 16:30:58 i just read tele than check the map anyway, you can tell vaguely where you were and where you should go 16:31:05 oh -- there's a cruel idea: a bad scroll that makes a god angry with you 16:31:06 kilobyte: hm, but at least it's better than before. Agreed? 16:31:16 it works fine in lab, maprot from ocs and zot traps is annoying though 16:31:27 bmh: how about a scroll that ties a metal ball to your leg 16:31:42 monky: And a shop keeper who sells candles? 16:32:00 and a class-specific branch? 16:32:14 I forgot about nethack ball-and-chain punishment. I quit playing it in my first year of college 16:32:34 dpeg: yeah, it's an improvement from a bot doing 100% for you to being merely helpful 16:33:04 kilobyte: I am certain more could be done to anti-botify labs, but we'll only do that when necessary 16:34:09 I'm more concerned about the Abyss... the instant map rot there would a mapping bot pretty damn helpful 16:34:18 bmh: Scroll of Heresy :P 16:35:22 walls in the abyss should crawl around imo 16:35:32 kilobyte: this is true 16:35:35 Wensley: We have sTormet and sHolyWord, why not a scroll that inflicts a god wrath? 16:35:49 bmh: yes, there could also be a scroll that increase piety (sIncense) 16:35:57 I like having many very rare scrolls. 16:36:38 and a scroll that gives you lung cancer (sCigar) 16:36:43 :) 16:36:46 bmh: a lot of wraths are just miscast effects, though (although there could be a scroll just for those too) 16:36:54 monky: I was thinking of this earlier today. If we constructed abyss levels from 3d perlin noise we could have the level seamless metamorphose 16:36:57 scroll that can dump berserk stone giants next to you sounds pretty lame 16:36:59 we already have that for traps 16:37:18 MarvinPA: yes, the s-piety has to be more subtle 16:37:40 but maybe that's more an issue with some wraths being over the top, anyway 16:37:54 dpeg: Like a temporary Amulent of Faith? 16:38:04 bmh: I looked into perlin noise for dungeon generation, and it didn't bring results I would be satisfied with 16:38:04 MarvinPA: bmh offered to help with wrath overhaul 16:38:07 bmh: for example 16:38:24 kilobyte: Do you have the code lying around? 16:38:24 kilobyte: are you aware of ??layout ? 16:38:26 bmh: but then, the requirements for an abyss generator are damn lower 16:39:58 dpeg: those screenshots use several levels 16:41:37 one issue with 3d perlin noise -- what do you do about occluding the player? 16:41:38 kilobyte: yes, just a bunch of 80x24 maps generated somehow 16:41:43 good stuff, if you ask me 16:41:55 I hope Nolithius will explain his algorithm on r.g.r.d. 16:44:09 it's non-trivial to convert such height maps to a 1-bit connected layout 16:54:15 Eronarn: commented 16:55:36 03dolorous * rdba92aff0b21 10/crawl-ref/source/godconduct.cc: Remove unneeded blank line. 16:55:55 that's a hardhitting commit if I've seen one 16:58:20 bmh: you've not been around for long, eh? 16:58:49 dpeg: since 0.5 16:59:04 bmh: dolorous is cleaning the source for a long time. 16:59:13 He is also doing other things, of course. 16:59:36 Source code plumbers are worth their weight in gold 16:59:52 :) 16:59:57 :) 17:00:11 I hope dolorous is not too heavy. 17:00:13 I have a side project with some friends. One guy has the job of ensuring that the build doesn't explode. 17:01:48 If he is, sell him and hire someone to develop crawl full time. 17:22:01 kilobyte: about the scroll of amnesia breaking compat. It must be because I tried to clean selective amnesia. The first version is nicer and only removes it from the books. 17:23:55 I love trampling 17:25:33 yes, it is a good idea 17:25:41 yes. 17:25:47 I want orcs to trample each other 17:25:49 Eronarn: I also like your idea of making Geryon's beasts trample. 17:26:01 Just not sure if all beasts should trample. Should they? 17:26:09 It would detract a bit from the elephants and dragons. 17:26:14 beasts are currently pretty boring 17:26:17 was that mine...? i don't recall it 17:26:23 I thought it was OG17's 17:26:37 oops 17:26:38 sorry 17:26:39 that's mine 17:26:40 i think it's an ok idea, but that we should save it in case we find something cooler to put it on 17:26:49 how often do you see beasts that aren't geryon's, really 17:26:58 early dungeon altar vaults 17:27:02 well, perhaps these should be particularly large beasts 17:27:04 meph them into lava for great exp 17:27:04 ??beast 17:27:04 beast[1/1]: Stats are random. Speed: 10-17. AC: 2-6. EV: 7-11. HD: 4-7. 17:27:04 and how often do you see elephants past lair 17:27:13 yes, too small 17:27:42 largening beasts makes sense to me 17:30:49 beasts are already "large," whatever that's worth 17:31:02 @??beast 17:31:02 beast (072) | Speed: 10-17 | HD: 4 | Health: 38-96 | AC/EV: 4/8 | Damage: 28, 20 | Flags: 05demonic | Res: 06magic(28) | XP: 284. 17:31:04 don't think size is that important, they could be described as having strong legs or whatever 17:31:08 hd 4 17:31:29 i think these stats are mostly from when beasts were 4's 17:31:35 raising that wouldn't make them any more interesting 17:31:47 doy: yes 17:32:08 OG17: but we want to convey the idea that trampling is related to LARGE things pushing smaller things around 17:32:11 38-96 hp is pretty high for hd4 17:32:17 you cannot explain that with measly beasts 17:32:42 kilobyte, doy: I have flagged a bunch of Mantis patches as good. Should I ask on c-r-d for pushing them? 17:32:42 they're a 2-rank demon, that shouldn't be "measly" :P 17:33:00 They do more than just descriptions, so someone literate should look at them. 17:33:03 behemoths 17:33:08 you can if they have strong legs 17:33:19 @??elephant 17:33:19 elephant (03Y) | Speed: 10 | HD: 9 | Health: 53-83 | AC/EV: 8/2 | Damage: 20, 5 | Res: 06magic(60) | XP: 430. 17:33:32 MarvinPA: okay, looks good enough 17:33:49 any thoughts on geryon with a reaching attack? 17:33:55 just make geryon summon hellephants 17:33:56 all better 17:34:04 that's also good 17:34:26 will players be able to trample smaller things? 17:34:35 you can trample in dragonform 17:34:37 you could give the vestibule a unique spawn list with hellephants on it 17:34:43 it's pretty cool 17:34:44 instead of dungeon spawns 17:34:49 ah, nice 17:34:53 is there still interest in the other kind of trampling, where you walk through things as you kill them? 17:34:53 vestibule is weird with all the dungeon spawns 17:35:00 casmith789: there are two concepts of trampling, cf wiki 17:35:06 OG17: sure 17:36:55 does size do anything else in itself? Any reason beasts couldn't be bumped up a notch? 17:37:07 if that's a stumbling block 17:39:20 no, not really 17:39:37 added support to OG17's geryon & beast proposal 17:39:45 and added the hellephant idea 17:40:37 the hellephant idea was a joke D: 17:40:59 do hellephants even spawn in the hells? 17:41:20 i've only ever seen them in abyss and abyss zigs 17:41:26 hellephants are kind of rough for multiple things by a stairway 17:41:27 i didn't see them in my tourney allruner 17:41:34 monky: it fits the name 17:41:52 they should definitely spawn in geh 17:42:04 my original joke was "then make geryon summon demonic elephants" but those already exist 17:42:49 they should spawn solo in zot too imo, they'd fit with all the other silly enemies :P 17:43:05 killer klowns and death cobs? 17:43:22 and curse toes 17:43:27 oh right 17:43:33 Mu_: true. Would you add them to Vestibule and Zot, please? 17:43:42 i dunno how to do such things :P 17:43:54 blammo :) 17:44:02 doy, kilobyte: ^ please 17:44:11 zot sounds reasonable enough since there's already loads of dragons, vestibule not so much 17:44:21 MarvinPA: HELLephant 17:44:35 it is a silly monster, but it should at least live up to its name 17:44:36 zotephant doesn't have the same ring to it 17:44:41 can be rare if we want 17:44:45 yes but they're significantly tougher than everything else that spawns there :P 17:44:55 MarvinPA: sure? 17:45:00 I had ancient liches there 17:45:06 it'd be more interesting if geryon was the main threat really 17:45:24 imo making vestibule tougher isn't a bad thing 17:45:27 as opposed to the yaktaur captains, yes 17:45:27 i guess yeah, vestibule could afford to be tougher but ideally with a different monster set entirely 17:45:28 hellephants are stronger than xtahua dpeg 17:45:39 yes that too 17:45:47 but so is most of zot (not death cobs/ weak dracs) 17:45:48 MarvinPA: if he is alone, we'll either buff him and end up with a hell lord lookalike, or we don't and then G has to stay a summoner 17:46:04 do hellephants spawn in herds too? 17:46:25 hellephant packs sound wonderful 17:46:26 don't think so, if they did they'd be the #1 threat wherever they were 17:46:30 oh right yeah, i didn't mean he has to become really tough himself, the beasts are fine 17:46:42 make geryon a random pan lord? 17:46:48 the yaktaurs are awful 17:46:50 Zannick: no 17:46:55 geryon: lord of butterflies 17:47:09 don't make geryon easier :( 17:47:24 alright, dpeg, I'm taking a shower, then I'll write down some stuff. :] 17:47:32 yay :) 17:47:37 @??hellephant 17:47:37 hellephant (04Y) | Speed: 10 | HD: 20 | Health: 128-202 | AC/EV: 13/10 | Damage: 45, 20, 15 | Flags: 05demonic, !sil | Res: 06magic(133) | XP: 3632 | Sp: fire breath (3d40), blink. 17:47:46 vestibule spawn list should probably be 2's, 4's, few hell knights 17:47:59 Mu_: and the odd hellephant 17:48:02 ye! 17:48:07 they can be as rare as death cobs in Zot 17:48:08 hell hound and hog packs too? 17:48:12 that sounds better, yeah 17:48:24 there could be some sort of demonic hunter monsters, instead of yaktaurs 17:48:35 or reflavor one of the boring demons for that, whatever 17:48:53 2s means hellions which are way nastier than yaktaurs, i guess :P 17:49:25 I guess, I like geryon having more of a role 17:49:31 eg hunt theme 17:49:43 does anyone aside from me think that tormentors (3s) are more dangerous than most 2s 17:49:49 no 17:49:50 dpeg: Here's a strange idea: unidentified food 17:49:54 (he's on hellephant safari) 17:50:01 (dammit, I'm not suggesting tins of unknown meat) 17:50:02 the whole of hell at the moment is ranged apart from geryon and his beasts 17:50:04 ??hellephant 17:50:04 hellephant[1/2]: A pachyderm born in the fires of Hell; it blinks, breathes fire, and hits really, really hard. 17:50:14 bmh: we would need enough interesting special food properties 17:50:16 why do hellephants blink 17:50:18 that seems weird 17:50:21 they're way more dangerous than beasts/reapers/whatever that other one is 17:50:21 which is a contentious (spelling?) issue 17:50:37 ~lorocyproca~ 17:50:38 doy: perhaps they're jumping around in the manege? 17:50:40 that distinction (ranged v non ranged) should stay I think, it makes geryon different to his surroundings 17:50:42 casmith789: what about deep troll packs 17:50:43 i was thinking of the purple one 17:50:44 MarvinPA: they die really easily 17:50:45 soul reaper 17:50:49 or soul eater 17:50:50 soul eater? 17:50:50 doy: yeah, I don't get that too 17:50:52 that's it 17:50:52 soul eater 17:50:55 yeah, soul reapers are pretty unimpressive 17:50:55 there are sun demons too 17:51:02 ??hellephant[2] 17:51:03 hellephant[2/2]: Xtahua with blink, mostly. 17:51:04 reapers can be dangerous though 17:51:08 oh and ice devils 17:51:13 reapers are cool enough, yeah 17:51:24 monky: okay you got me, but you never fight them before you've started autoexploring hell 17:51:52 the only 2 I can recall being dangerous (or non-melee) is hellion 17:52:12 see my TrAE for how beasts are dangerous to trolls 17:52:16 OG17: you saw I removed the Astley quote? 17:52:26 I saw it was sort-of-removed 17:52:27 trolls have terrible defences though :P 17:52:40 OG17: okay, clearing the wiki page then 17:52:43 cool 17:53:20 their regen should be percentage based :3 17:53:24 the melee 2s might be okay if there was a midgame demonic branch 17:54:10 the melee 2s are sort of lame regardless of where they are 17:54:15 except when they show up early 17:54:19 sun demon is dangerous in the hell lair ending 17:54:26 I guess 17:56:31 the problem with most demons is probably the fact that they don't appear 'till late, when they aren't much of a threat, yes. 2s are pretty dangerous (eg sun demon hell ending, lyco~ in sprint) 17:56:50 s/hell/lair/ 17:57:03 I've had sun demons summoned by nergalle before, which is pretty frightening for a mid-level character with no abjuration 17:58:37 they can be dangerous because of their stats, but it doesn't make them interesting 17:58:54 they might benefit from stuff like cloud trails, though then you'd wonder why similar 1s don't have them 17:59:28 like rotting devils? 17:59:31 though I suppose that doesn't do much for hostile demons anyway 17:59:33 yeah 17:59:51 also it'd make them annoying when summoned, for whatever that's worth 18:00:34 -!- Galehar has quit [Quit: Page closed] 18:00:52 sun demon could have a ring of flames aura, at least 18:01:37 that doesn't leave trails, I mean 18:01:45 or it could, either way 18:05:56 -!- bmh has quit [Quit: bmh] 18:11:34 I'm a little wary about editing the wiki. Is the accepted practice to just make additions in a signed block at the end of a section and wait for someone with authority to clean it up, or should I just make edits directly? 18:12:09 Wensley: just add where you think it's good. 18:12:35 Always sign your stuff. There is a button for this in the row on top. 18:15:38 I can actually see those buttons now. Must be something weird with the firefox 4 beta 18:17:29 -!- murphy_slaw__ has joined ##crawl-dev 18:23:12 for ashenzari wrath: in addition to not announcing portal vaults, maybe it could also reduce your effective traps & doors skill (penalty to discovery and all that) 18:24:48 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 18:28:51 Wensley: yes, good point 18:35:30 OG17: i want sun demon to cast OTR :D 18:36:01 is that toxic radiance or something else 18:36:15 yes 18:36:32 to do it passively, though 18:36:42 dare I ask why 18:36:53 nuclear fusion. 18:36:57 blaaargh 18:37:56 (actually, i just like the idea of a sun that takes life instead of giving it, and an OTR-style effect seems to fit that) 18:39:36 how'd the friendly fire work out 18:40:09 FR: black hole demon. It's not invisible, its glyph is just black 18:41:39 ew old shadows 18:41:56 Eronarn: Except that usually nuke lines up with glow, doesn't it? Mnoleg, neqoxecs, mutation, &c. 18:44:53 sun demons should glow if they don't already 18:46:21 jld: i don't think we need another mutator; coronas everything + OTRs everything seems interesting though 18:46:26 sun demons could increase the ev of everything near them, a sort of blinded due to staring-into-the-sun thing 18:48:52 Eronarn: Point. 18:49:18 ...now I'm having thoughts of Ignite Poison. 18:50:13 -!- ortoslon has joined ##crawl-dev 18:52:08 dpeg: if i want to post up all the current bugs/missing features of malign gateway, should i make a mantis item or just stick it on the wiki page? 18:52:21 wiki is better, I think 18:52:24 and thanks for doing this! 19:04:58 https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:magic:summoning:malign_gateway#status 19:05:23 you rock! 19:05:29 ##crawl is tearing me apart 19:05:33 last day I am there, I guess 19:06:56 -!- ortoslon has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:09:52 my local build of crawl still crashes when i close it, and every monster has the radiating silence flag 19:10:43 -!- Wensley has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:29:44 -!- Mu_ has quit [Quit: Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place.] 19:33:17 -!- casmith789 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:46:40 -!- murphy_slaw___ has joined ##crawl-dev 19:49:55 -!- murphy_slaw__ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:50:23 -!- minced has joined ##crawl-dev 19:55:16 -!- elliptic has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:56:53 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 20:05:31 -!- murphy_slaw___ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:07:21 -!- murphy_slaw__ has joined ##crawl-dev 20:17:11 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:19:08 Gdk-WARNING **: Native Windows wider or taller than 65535 pixels are not supported 20:19:20 Hm, mispaste. 20:19:59 Hi due! 20:20:06 Hi dpeg! 20:20:12 I'll take over malign gateway, if that's okay? 20:20:20 sure, but tell Mu 20:20:29 also, please reply to the agenda mail 20:20:35 !tell Mu_ Do you mind if I take over the coding of malign gateway? 20:20:35 due: OK, I'll let Mu_ know. 20:20:36 Sure. 20:20:44 Just the coding--Mu can be idea meister. 20:20:49 :) 20:21:15 We also need to decide what the new portal spell's main application should be. 20:22:11 Do we want to adopt an "eldritch" holiness flag? 20:22:31 I have no idea what an eldritch is. 20:22:34 "This monster is neither holy nor unholy; it comes from a place where such things are alien concepts. It itself is an alien concept, unthinking, unfeeling, unlocing as we know it." 20:22:56 *unloving 20:23:10 hm, don't think we need that 20:23:15 at least not for a single spell 20:23:22 Horrible Things. :) 20:23:24 if we're gonna add any flags, spirit should go in before eldritch, by far 20:23:40 also, before doing anything on that front, talk to dolorous 20:23:47 Yes, just a random thing. 20:24:00 due: I just split with ##crawl :) 20:24:00 Anyway: delay when the portal opens, translocational energy spilling out. 20:24:08 Good, ##crawl is a bunch of arseholes. 20:24:11 yes, these are important 20:24:19 due: no, that is not true :) 20:24:26 Of course not, I'm in there. ;) 20:24:31 (: 20:24:46 by the way, am i the only person who finds the tentacle glyph underwhelming 20:25:02 * and w? 20:25:02 Eronarn: probably not, but the artists will address that, I am sure 20:25:09 ah, console :) 20:25:21 I don't like * and w, to be honest. I'd like to switch back to w and w. 20:25:31 yeah, the *s look weird 20:25:33 I think these issues are overrated. 20:25:58 * dpeg can live with any glyphs. 20:26:49 by the way, dpeg: you could remove portal entirely, and use the name for passage of golubria, instead 20:27:00 i'm not sure we need an inter-level teleport spell 20:27:04 Eronarn: yes, that is a good idea 20:27:08 me neither 20:27:22 Has "golubria" any meaning? 20:27:28 the only kind of inter-level teleporting i find interesting is portal vaults, and i can't think of any way at all to make that balanced 20:27:59 also, the question about the spell's scope is still open 20:28:39 i would really like to see a spell that actually connects parts of the dungeon 20:28:52 Eronarn: explain? 20:29:42 dpeg: like: you're at A, make a portal, then go to B, make a portal, through which you can see A - not just a telecontrol trap, but an actual connection. 20:29:58 Eronarn: on the same level, or between levels? 20:30:22 there's some passage of golubria stuff on the wiki, i think at the moment those who have tried it aren't quite sure what it's meant to be for 20:30:28 or how to take advantage of it 20:30:31 MarvinPA: yes, I think the same 20:30:44 but I believe that the spell can be made useful 20:30:56 it's a cool concept but it's not getting loads of testing like iood did when it was implemented, because it's not absurdly overpowered like iood was :P 20:30:57 same level - so you can do things like, create a portal on the other side of deep water from some monsters, walk through a portal somewhere else and arrive there, then fire at the monsters 20:31:13 basically, what passage wishes it could be 20:31:37 i think one thing that might make it more interesting is having it still work in non-cTele levels 20:31:39 MarvinPA: passage is kind of overpowered. just... in a way that's more annoying to use than it's worth 20:31:42 Eronarn: this cannot come for a long time, it will completely mess with monster "AI" 20:31:53 dpeg: yes, i figured as much :( which is why i haven't wiki'd it 20:32:00 Eronarn: please explain again 20:32:29 for passage? you can, say 20:32:32 Golubria seems like it would be great in zig levels, especially for a pacifist. 20:32:34 make an oklob fort with fedhas 20:32:41 and golubria stuff into it 20:32:49 it's unresistable 20:33:01 hm 20:33:07 -!- murphy_slaw__ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:33:10 you could just lure stuff towards the oklob fort though :P 20:33:28 MarvinPA: sure, but this lets you do one with a deep water ring, or the like 20:33:48 how would seeing stuff through the portal work with actually fitting LOS in the game screen 20:33:52 What do we want: the player luring monsters from A to B, or leading allies from A to B, or having a way from A to B or something else? 20:34:24 OG17: could probably be done, but is not worth finalising because of AI 20:34:27 OG17: same net LOS as always, it'd just treat the area where the portal is as blocking LOS, but any blocked LOS square sees through 20:34:49 it seems like it could have a lot of different uses, but i'm not sure if anything in particular was intended by the implementer of it? 20:35:13 MarvinPA: no, which is why someone has to find a good usage 20:35:17 Eronarn: that sounds like it would be incredibly confusing 20:35:18 indeed :) 20:35:20 are those portals area effects? Not sure what you're saying 20:35:27 doy: but also incredibly awesome 20:35:30 doy: colours could do it, but ^ 20:35:36 well i tried it for stabbing, which was reasonably effective 20:35:38 dpeg: hmm, true 20:35:54 but i'd do things like stay out of the monster's LOS and repeat-cast golubria until the exit portal landed where i wanted it 20:36:00 which is annoying but optimal 20:36:07 also not sure how this would fit on the map either way 20:36:37 OG17: you know how when you're standing near a single tile of wall 20:36:49 and there are out-of-los tiles behind it because of that? 20:37:01 But the basic idea are applications as I listed above? 20:37:16 Eronarn is just suggesting to display things "through the portal" instead of those out-of-los tiles 20:37:43 I am talking about Golubria. 20:37:44 yes; it would be very weird looking, but also an extremely unique effect (can't even think of a roguelike that has anything like it) 20:38:07 dpeg: i kind of wonder if golubria would work better as a short-range, "multi-blink" spell creating a network of portals 20:38:14 i think the duration may be a little short for luring monsters over any large distance 20:38:22 it worked for me as a way to approach things quickly 20:38:26 I've proposed a multi-blinking spell on the wiki 20:38:45 Eronarn: perhaps, yes 20:38:46 you cast it, and get a bunch of little portals strewn about the immediate vicinity, and going in one brings you out another 20:38:50 yeah, if we wanted to increase the duration or anything like that, that would be quite easy 20:38:53 depending on what we want 20:38:57 due: also, now that I get you, what about the p <--> aP stuff? 20:39:06 i like the idea of it being useful for stabbers out in the open 20:39:07 Eronarn: not sure if that would be particularly useful though 20:39:15 to approach things without having to be in their LOS for long 20:39:28 MarvinPA: yeah 20:40:18 doy: i think it'd have an interesting niche - efficiently keep monsters away from you, without having to blink all of the time 20:40:32 Eronarn: yeah, but that's a lot more limited 20:40:51 yeah, but limited isn't necessarily a bad thing... golubria has so many possible uses that some are almost certain to end up broken 20:42:21 like: telecontrol into an empty, secret-door-less area, golubria, telecontrol out to tough opponent, golubria 20:43:05 people still want to trap cerebov in a loot chamber 20:43:28 dpeg: Sure, I can implement if you want? 20:43:31 or for a place like elf:7, haste/dmsl up, run in, make a ton of noise, golubria, tomb card at the entrance 20:43:35 due: I think it is good. 20:43:37 -!- murphy_slaw__ has joined ##crawl-dev 20:43:43 due: You don't anymore? 20:43:56 and you end up with no way for the elves to defend their loot, and they disperse over the level so you can kill them more easily 20:43:58 The p-->aP thing? 20:44:00 yes 20:44:11 And some stuff would also go to p. 20:44:12 I think it is a great idea. 20:44:20 Ely and Fedhas 20:44:21 (well, e7 has -tele, actually, but you get the idea) 20:44:32 Eronarn: not sure how golubria adds anything to that plan 20:45:02 doy: it's a cheap source of telecontrol 20:46:58 i like it as an escape mechanism too (place golubria portal, go into possibly nasty vault, golubria out if necessary) 20:47:16 hmm... if you only have one golubria up, nothing happens if you go over it, right? 20:47:52 nope 20:47:57 dpeg: I'll do p<-->aP when I get home tonight, and I'll work on malign gateway. 20:48:03 cool 20:48:07 I will go to sleep. 20:48:12 you could golubria into a room with spores 20:48:15 * due will go work. 20:48:16 one totally filled 20:48:59 not sure if it'd kick in that turn, or next, but it'd let you smite-target fire a giant spore 20:49:18 doy: I merged a signed/unsigned comparison into trunk last night with malign gateway, can't remember exactly where, but can you have a look at it for me? 20:49:25 it wouldn't really be smite targeted 20:49:28 Or someone 20:49:32 well, it can vary by some 20:49:34 since it varies by a couple of squares 20:49:39 but spore explosions are 2 wide 20:49:49 and they only explode once they hit something, of course 20:50:03 still, if it lets you launch giant spores at things i think that's basically awesome :P 20:50:10 Explosions should travel through golubria's! 20:50:16 i was disappointed it didn't work on cbl or iood :( 20:50:26 MarvinPA: i think it's pretty broken if you can :P 20:50:53 why? it's still expensive to set up 20:51:04 and probably not entirely reliable 20:51:23 spores are very unsafe to travel around with 20:51:31 maybe I'm misunderstanding portal LOS, but wouldn't it be expected that they "project" their view outside of level boundaries? Can that be done? 20:51:32 if you can stow them somewhere else, that's powerful 20:51:50 OG17: well, it's not getting done regardless because of the AI issue 20:52:07 i only used fedhas spores in zig briefly, it seemed more like you want to just create them inside a swarm of enemies 20:52:11 where corpses have already dropped 20:52:24 MarvinPA: yes, but this lets you open a fight with one 20:52:29 which is good because it confuses things 20:52:46 well it costs piety anyway 20:53:06 (also, let me mention again how much i hate the fedhas spore power) 20:53:34 i'm no good at fedhas and i always forget to his the powers but it seemed pretty cool to me :P 20:53:44 also i was pleasantly surprised by the interface 20:54:38 forget to use* 20:54:50 er yeah i mangled that sentence 20:56:00 it doesn't feel like a plant god power 20:56:03 it feels like an explosion god power 20:56:27 explosions are fun! 20:57:29 a large percentage of crawl plants explode 20:57:47 yes; crawl needs more plants. 21:02:08 hey, you guys might know this, but the current "Windows Zips" download of Crawl is a .exe that installs it 21:02:23 Might want to relabel the website 21:04:16 -!- Pacra has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:05:16 i get zips 21:09:00 -!- murphy_slaw___ has joined ##crawl-dev 21:09:41 dumped some more golubria thoughts on the wiki :) 21:11:07 -!- murphy_slaw__ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:15:36 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 21:16:48 -!- minced has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:23:23 -!- upsy has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:31:54 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 21:40:39 weird 21:40:42 I got a zip this time too 21:40:46 I must have misclicked 21:41:23 sorry :[ 21:42:35 FAILVANDAL! 21:58:48 -!- zergloli has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:58:48 -!- zergloli_ has joined ##crawl-dev 21:58:48 -!- zergloli_ is now known as zergloli 22:34:44 -!- stabwound has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:37:46 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 22:42:33 -!- elliptic has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:46:25 its true 23:12:12 -!- gamefreak264 has joined ##crawl-dev 23:25:28 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev