00:01:11 ^ i dunno if chei is supposed to forgive you constantly for *rage items but if so i guess he shouldn't warn you when you wield them 00:01:29 but it seems more like he should warn you for wielding them then punish you on berserk 00:01:41 yeah 00:02:33 Chei worshippers can wield the Wrath of Trog with no warnings for it causing berserk (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2352) by MarvintheParanoidAndroid 00:02:58 and that one presumably happens because the wrath of trog doesn't have the same *rage flag as other things :P 01:00:02 -!- elliptic has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:58:58 phew, now i can streamline this fairly well 01:59:20 all i need is a list of log files 01:59:47 stats for 15 fastest wins: 4 Leech, 4 salamander, 2 Morg, anything else at most 1 01:59:56 * fastest by turncount 02:03:52 the fastest realtime games are mostly the same 02:04:20 but their stats: 5 Leech, 4 salamander, bloodlust 3, assassin boots 2, assorted 1s 02:04:51 ...i feel like i got carried away, since i was doing well in crawl earlier and i haven't played much for a couple of hours... 02:06:30 oh well, if someone has a list of logfiles for me to run this on, feel free to ask 02:15:49 -!- ortoslon has joined ##crawl-dev 02:48:26 -!- rwbarton has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:49:37 -!- st_ has quit [*.net *.split] 02:49:37 -!- jarpiain has quit [*.net *.split] 02:49:38 -!- philsnow_ has quit [*.net *.split] 02:49:38 -!- phyphor has quit [*.net *.split] 03:00:00 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 03:00:00 -!- jarpiain has joined ##crawl-dev 03:00:00 -!- philsnow_ has joined ##crawl-dev 03:00:00 -!- phyphor has joined ##crawl-dev 03:00:11 -!- Pseudonut has joined ##crawl-dev 03:00:44 one 0.6 change that is likely to have had an effect on total number of unrands generated is that you.unique_items is now rolled back for vetoed levels 03:01:34 one 0.7 change that is likely to have had a smaller effect is that shops are deeper on average 03:09:58 -!- Amonchakad has joined ##crawl-dev 03:20:16 -!- Amonchakad has quit [Quit: When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net] 03:21:59 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 03:22:36 Cheers 03:27:33 * kilobyte meows at dpeg. 03:27:51 Moin, moin! 03:28:02 dpeg: "anti-magic" or "antimagic"? The former looks a bit better to me. 03:28:56 kilobyte: an Englishman himself wouldn't know :) Okay to go with the hyphen, I say. 03:30:29 I'm not sure if my current mp damage that's equal on the average to hp damage is adequate. 03:32:47 for monsters, my formula is: every 1hp of damage dealt increases the ench by 1. It goes away at the rate of 1 per 10 aut. Any attempt to cast a spell or a spell-like ability fails with antimagic in antimagic+HD chance. 03:33:21 again, this is probably too mild 03:36:04 kilobyte: should this brand be useful to players, monsters or both? 03:37:05 uhm, it was you and syllogism who asked for it, so I'm not the best person to ask that question :p 03:37:27 but then, since it works on all magic users and not just living spellcasters, it might be ok 03:37:39 yes 03:37:57 We have some dubious brands now anyway, so will have to look at all of them at some point. 03:38:20 there's no other way to stop a demon from casting. If it's not absolute but still has a major effect on Cerebov, it may be even too good. 03:39:01 kilobyte: scroll of silence? 03:39:12 doesn't work on demons 03:39:37 good to know 03:40:18 actually, the new needle brands have a chance of working, but you need close to 27 Throwing to have it non-zero 03:41:09 needles also need work 03:56:09 -!- flowsnake has joined ##crawl-dev 04:02:02 -!- ortoslon has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:09:03 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 04:16:44 should monsters lose a turn when failing to cast due to antimagic? 04:16:47 -!- Textmode has quit [Quit: Over the ages, man has been certain of a great many things. some of these things were even true.] 04:17:22 kilobyte: players would lose that turn, too? 04:17:47 players just lose mp 04:18:13 so players lose mp, monsters lose a turn 04:18:18 sounds ok to me 04:18:50 well, players can hit you with a stick instead 04:19:44 kilobyte: but there are many monsters, yet only one player. I think this bit of asymmetry is okay. 05:06:06 -!- Pseudonut has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:06:35 03kilobyte * r4b26746cfc51 10/crawl-ref/source/ (10 files): An "anti-magic" weapon brand (design by syllogism). 05:06:36 03kilobyte * refd7a44ec17e 10/crawl-ref/source/ (fight.cc mon-class-flags.h mon-data.h): Make natural monsters with abilities coded as spells unaffected by antimagic. 05:06:40 should acquirement and god gifts (Trog!) be adjusted? 05:07:15 right now the brand never spawns, this needs to be added too 05:08:05 kilobyte: sure, Trog should have affinity to this brand 05:25:55 -!- mruuuu has joined ##crawl-dev 05:35:48 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 05:39:21 Slouch does not affect enemies behind translucent walls (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2353) by MarvintheParanoidAndroid 05:40:03 I'll just remove tgw_good, there are multiple issues with that vault, and it has nothing of note after removing the colouring. 05:41:28 Problem 1: in tiles, it breaks water merging code. Problem 2: it looks butt-ugly in console, too. Problem 3: recoloured water confuses people and already caused someone to drown because shallow water turned out to be deep. 05:48:10 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 05:49:51 kilobyte: okay 05:50:10 if you think there's some good idea in there, you can also just comment it out 05:58:18 not really, you can make better vaults in your sleep. While drunk. And half-dead. 06:00:29 I see :) 06:01:26 -!- ortoslon has joined ##crawl-dev 06:07:01 -!- felirx_ has joined ##crawl-dev 06:07:01 -!- felirx_ has quit [Client Quit] 06:12:58 -!- elliptic has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.8/20100722155716]] 06:19:34 All monsters described as "radiating silence". (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2354) by jpeg 06:24:36 Wizmode teleporting a Lugonu CK from the Abyss straight into the Temple crashes the game (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2355) by jpeg 06:24:55 jpeg been busy recently 06:25:01 dpeg: is she still working on nlarn 06:25:08 yes 06:32:20 Awesome to see her back, good stuff committed :) 06:33:37 Deteriorating body is nastier now, that the stats don't each come back all points at once.. 06:34:40 Doors opened out of sight get highlighted on the map (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2356) by jpeg 06:36:05 Keskitalo: really? they should be coming back as fast as they used to 06:37:22 I'm used to the first level of mutation ticking off a point or two, then I'm back to full.. now I had 3 int, 2 dex and 1 str drained before I quaffed a restore abilities.. it might be that I'm just perceiving it wrongly. 06:37:25 -!- Anym has joined ##crawl-dev 06:38:27 hmm, maybe I misremember 06:38:38 might be that you recover as fast as you lose now 06:39:18 and since recovering when full doesn't help, you'd expect to be a bit below full most of the time 06:41:20 it slowly drifts down with one level of the mutation, and very rapidly with two 06:42:00 before, the mutation meant just somewhat degraded stats, now you have to chug restore ability every a short while 06:42:43 Yeah, that's what it feels like too, it's good 06:43:26 degen 1 is slightly detrimental atm yeah as opposed to could be ignored 06:44:51 I'm not sure if "wear a sust abil to be immune, if you don't have it pray for cure mut very soon or perish" is a good thing 06:51:36 The mutation could drain the abilities to something like 3 instead of 0. 06:51:58 glad someone else has the radiating silence thing 06:53:02 kilobyte: hah 06:53:31 Mu_: MB_SILENCING = 31, and someone made this a bit field without having constants for masks but for bit indexes 06:53:47 so I bet you're on a 32 bit platform 06:54:16 64 :p 06:55:26 oh wait the thing is 32 06:55:28 then it's some other type length screwup 06:56:12 for me (Linux, 64 bit), it works ok, though 06:59:06 dpeg: for silent spectres, what would be the best glyph? 'p' seems to look a bit weird, wouldn't 'W' be better? 06:59:55 and I wonder what would be a good radius. Someone mentioned bigger than LOS. 07:00:14 W for me 07:00:48 i'm on vista 64 but i use mingw32 when i make crawl so maybe that does it (i'm not a very technical person so idk :P) 07:00:55 i associate W with draining attacks 07:01:36 wait, I created a silent spectre, and now all other monsters, even outside the radius, get that tag 07:01:36 Z then? 07:02:27 Yeah, I suggested larger than LOS radius 07:03:12 spectre and phantom are basically the same thing so imo p makes sense 07:08:35 true 07:13:10 what should the spectre, uhm, say? 07:13:26 nothing. 07:13:28 it silences. 07:15:12 Hi due! 07:15:36 hi dpeg! I thought you were dead? 07:15:41 kilobyte: Mmpph. 07:16:17 kilobyte: either would work (p or W) 07:16:28 * dpeg resurrects himself. 07:16:55 * due casts animate dead on dpeg. 07:17:17 * kilobyte casts dispel undead. 07:17:19 The silent spectre gestures you to be quiet. 07:17:48 Hm. 07:17:56 gesture is intransitive, no? 07:18:04 due: I was pretty busy and still am. Next week available, then gone again for two more. 07:18:50 oh 07:18:58 it needs an "at", that's what's wrong. 07:19:05 "gesturs" is intransitive 07:19:08 "gestures at" is transitive 07:20:05 * Keskitalo is still busy looking up "instransitive" :) 07:20:32 Grammar, that's a type of flour, right? 07:20:35 LOL. 07:20:42 Transitive verbs take an object; in fact, they require it. 07:21:07 So you need " ". 07:21:20 Intransitives don't ever take an object, so you just have " ". 07:21:39 Some verbs are both, amusingly enough, and a lot of intransitive verbs can be made transitive by using "at". 07:22:06 So, gestures @at_foe@ :) For some reason, that sounded wrong to me. 07:22:24 But I've also thought "adultry" means "adulthood." 07:22:33 Or is it "adultery". 07:23:19 My English teacher kept a remarkably straight face when correcting me on that. 07:24:18 Hehehe. 07:32:50 -!- jarpiain has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:32:56 -!- jarpiain has joined ##crawl-dev 07:33:05 Recently, I wasted quite a bit of time reading the Brick Testament. And, it may be strange, but the bad old bible actually has interesting fragments -- like, David's exploits and reign. 07:33:22 and Yahveh there is Okawaru with heaping loads of Xom added 07:33:45 -!- Anym has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.8/20100722155716]] 07:33:52 not even a scrap of being TSO-like, or even worse, any similarities to the modern Zin-like Christain god 07:34:57 he mostly enjoys powerful warriors, and helps them 07:35:05 kilobyte: yes, TSO, Zin, Ely and Beogh all draw from the scripture, but they focus on very different aspects of the Christian god(s) 07:35:28 they draw on the late stuff 07:35:40 not Beogh 07:35:43 early on, he's a 100% warrior god 07:35:51 -!- Vandal has joined ##crawl-dev 07:35:52 with random wishes 07:36:21 like, multiple times he punishes people for doing his exact bidding... or just for a random whim 07:36:21 so what is latest and greatest w/ trunk? 07:36:26 sup kilo 07:36:32 kilobyte: historically, the Isreal tribes needed a religious model that catered for small bands of hunters and herdsmen... the transition can be seen. 07:36:41 * kilobyte meows at Vandal. 07:36:44 sup dpeg 07:37:07 I heard demonspawn are sexy as hell now 07:37:26 I tried an MDFi and a DECj last night, they both played pretty much like I remember them 07:37:34 cool 07:37:40 Vandal: there was no new development for DS in a couple of months already 07:37:40 So I guess the armor rebuff worked out 07:37:55 so all that's new is in 0.7 07:38:03 kilobyte: nah, there were always some bits and pieces? 07:38:12 I like the new ability chart 07:38:38 iirc MD used to be slightly better at Axes than MF, so does that mean now they're equal because they've got +2 in both? 07:38:45 (or was it +3.. idk) 07:38:54 er MF meaning Mace and Flail 07:39:23 Maybe one of those "better by 5" cases? :) 07:39:27 Yeah 07:39:33 So are they normalized now? 07:40:00 03kilobyte * r34ea9adfee03 10/crawl-ref/source/ (12 files): Evict all the acquirement code out of effects.cc 07:40:03 sort of.. the thought is that the 5 never mattered anyway 07:40:03 03kilobyte * re2c2a855e882 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/variable/altar.des: Remove tgw_good, there are multiple problems with that vault. 07:40:05 Like, did the actual aptitudes change, or just how you convey the information to the players? 07:40:05 03kilobyte * r9e8cb3fd9a23 10/crawl-ref/source/ (9 files in 3 dirs): Silent spectres. 07:40:16 Vandal: Yeah, they're normalized 07:40:21 oh awesome 07:40:32 \o/ silent spectres 07:40:57 How is progress coming on the Thief God / exploration piety system? 07:41:32 Vandal: not much 07:41:36 Vandal: none, but we want to measure exploration for several other things 07:41:36 :[ 07:41:47 yay 07:41:49 I hope that 0.8 will feature the new wraths, this might be the most urgent god thing. 07:41:58 I think you should encourage exploration more however you can 07:42:02 even for non-piety 07:42:06 There is also code for Ashenzari, hopefully we can get that god, too. 07:42:43 and the weapon abilities? 07:43:11 * due stuffs Vandal in a box. 07:43:16 * Vandal is boxed 07:43:18 * due ships to dpeg's front door. 07:43:19 There are a number of things I'd really want on the god front: Okawaru. Lugonu (needs new wraths). Exploration piety (instead of waiting) for the good gods. Thief god (really needs the exploration bit first9. 07:43:20 hi due 07:43:46 hmm 07:43:51 I think we'll eventually cover all of these, but it'll likely take four releases or so. 07:44:01 I'm taking a programming class in university this fall :3 07:44:08 probably spring too 07:44:29 that sounds terrifying 07:44:31 Still going with Psychology, but there is a class about human computer interfacing that requires 2 programming classes 07:44:41 dpeg: I'm quite afraid fully permanent wraths would be really detrimental to any god switching, and that's bad. Thus, I'd go for example that Nemelex-like way of infinite duration but diminishing severity. 07:45:21 kilobyte: yes, that is what I think, too. 07:45:44 dpeg: of course, diminishing with nothing but time would suffer from waiting in the temple, as you'd be able to wait out the nastiest period 07:45:45 I commented on the god wrath page that I am fine with superficially eternal wraths, but players must be able to work off wrath. 07:46:01 kilobyte: I am aware of that, and my model takes that into account. 07:47:21 for good gods, do we want fully Ashenzari-like piety, or something only somewhat based on exploration? 07:48:47 just dump the tmie factor 07:48:55 wrath only triggers during combat 07:48:59 or there's a timeout 07:49:17 each period of combat triggers a wrath/decreases pennace/whatever during the next quiet period 07:57:49 due: please read the wrath wiki, if you haven't yet. 07:58:04 There is also the problem that wraths are too harsh early on, and too lax later. 07:58:35 kilobyte: partially. All good gods provide means of getting piety on their own, so we just have some additional piety from exploring. 07:58:51 due: wrath only triggers during combat ==> prone to abuse 08:03:16 dpeg: I can't seem to find the design proposal for Ashenzari anywhere 08:03:47 kilobyte: yes, that's private communication between minced and me 08:04:05 There was a proposal on SF and he took it up, so that's why it never landed on the wiki. 08:04:06 I do remember it being posted somewhere 08:04:13 ah, SF only 08:04:59 I guess we would have pushed Ash more if there'd be an outcry about the Div removal. But apart from wailings and whinings _before_ the deed, nothing happened. 08:07:51 human inertia at work 08:08:14 dpeg: being able to sit out wrath in temple -> already abused 08:09:06 due: have you read the discussion? 08:09:17 I think redesigned wrath isn't aiming to replace one abuse by a different one 08:10:16 due: in general, anything that can trigger reducing the wrath needs to be somehow tied to some permanent loss/gain 08:10:41 no 08:10:42 ie, something you can't spam, like waiting 08:11:21 tension does not bring any permanent change, and thus is gameable 08:11:29 but exploration for example, is not 08:11:53 there were small murmerings of discontent in ##crawl when the rod of discovery was removed once and for all 08:12:07 (well, save for the Abyss, but it's not a place where you want to suffer the wrath in general) 08:12:59 st_: any nerf triggers that, it's surprising there was so little of that murmering 08:13:25 ..which is kind of worrying if Ash will have an audience. :) 08:14:24 Oh, forgotten to identify again. 08:20:35 Keskitalo: don't worry about that... Ash will be more than a piety-fueled rod of discovery 08:20:43 due: yes, we will change that 08:23:26 dpeg: is minced still alive? 08:25:18 I can commit the exploration conduct right now, but it does have an effect of harming compression of save files somewhat 08:28:33 kilobyte: yes 08:28:50 minced is around 08:28:59 he promised to upload his patch, but never did :) 08:31:55 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 08:37:55 is item highlighting supposed to work in the game the same as it does on cao ? 08:40:49 uhm, how do you mean "in the game" as different from "on cao"? 08:45:15 on my machine versus on yours :) 08:46:35 they were saying on the main channel that it is a crawlrc option but I dont know which 08:54:54 -!- Nexos has joined ##crawl-dev 08:56:09 a (previously unIDed) potion of slowing in a shop for 24 gold (presumably original price when it wasn't IDed)... normal? 08:58:08 Shouldn't it cost, like, 1 gold piece, once identified? 08:58:13 pots of slowing should sell for 1 I think 08:58:19 -!- Vandal has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:58:27 OOC< reenter the shop and see if the price changes 09:00:04 OOC? 09:00:22 out of curiosity 09:00:48 2 gold 09:00:57 its a stack of 2 ? 09:01:04 just 1! 09:01:09 lol :P 09:01:12 expensive shop then 09:01:19 I guess the game remembered the old price 09:01:35 May seem logical after all 09:01:39 yea -- might want to submit a bug but I'd settle for that in a pinch 09:01:58 anyone want to take a crack at this lua problem? http://nopaste.dk/p2306 09:05:49 Im not sure that that error was for my map 09:06:02 I just assumed it was my map, but it never loaded on the level 09:12:14 -!- ixtli has quit [Quit: ixtli] 09:12:27 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 09:17:20 it wasnt my lua 09:17:55 I just found the entrance 3 level deeper and it went to one of the special arrivals, which calls my lua -- all without error 09:20:39 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 09:22:26 Tiles compile is broken, it's the new brand.. 09:23:12 COMPILE_CHECK macros, I have no idea about those. 09:23:43 Ah, there's a helpful note. 09:25:21 kilobyte: I wanted "Captain's Cutlass" initially, but due suggested "Captain's cutlass"; "captain's cutlass" definitely seems wrong 09:25:26 -!- flowsnake is now known as upsy 09:25:49 it's *the* captain's cutlass, not a captain's cutlass 09:27:32 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.8/20100722155716]] 09:28:56 well, until you point out a specific captain (and there is none pointed out), shouldn't it use indefinite article? 09:30:34 I meant "the (captain's cutlass)" not "(the captain)'s cutlass" 09:30:51 it's a unique artefact 09:33:03 if so, it should be in the title case, I believe 09:34:29 since there's nothing that makes "captain" any more special than "cutlass" 09:35:46 "captain's" is the first word, but I don't know if that matters 09:36:09 "mace of Brilliance" is a similar case 09:36:24 only at the start of a sentence 09:36:46 it's always the first word of "captain's cutlass" 09:38:10 -!- Enne has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:38:39 -!- Nexos has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:39:41 another relevant artefact: "the hat of the Alchemist" 09:40:17 that one probably fits the captain's cutlass best 09:40:31 it's not "a hat of an alchemist" 09:41:07 but note that you'd call the latter generally "an alchemist's hat" 09:41:12 this is where the confusion may come from 09:41:21 I checked the Wikipedia's article on capitalization, and it says that it's either a common name (and thus no words are capitalized), or a proper name, when everything but articles is. 09:41:48 so capitalize everything 09:42:11 --that's "So Capitalize EVERYTHING" isnt it? 09:42:27 since English rules differ from German (all nouns) or Polish (unique proper names only) 09:42:58 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 09:45:11 I don't much care about the rules -- not capitalizing "captain's cutlass" at all feels wrong, and the native speaker I asked agreed 09:47:01 You see here a captain's cutlass. You see here the Captain's Cutlass. 09:47:10 can you include an art-data.h item by name in an ITEM: statement? 09:47:30 I would go for that 09:48:02 because the Captain's cutlass still seems to show that the cutlass belongs to the (unique) Captain but that it isn't special 09:49:05 yeah, you'd say that if it was for example the captain of your ship 09:49:12 or, "the Boss" 09:51:36 -!- Enne has joined ##crawl-dev 09:54:23 specifically Im trying to get this line to work http://nopaste.dk/p2307 -- if you replace my specific randart with Wrath of Trog, for example, it still fails with "Bad item name 'Wrath of Trog'" 09:55:18 hmmmmm: ! [remote rejected] master -> master (failed to lock) 09:56:19 seriously, why are we still using sourceforge 09:56:28 03kilobyte * r2d35869d2ff8 10/crawl-ref/source/makeitem.cc: Fix consistency checks for antimagic. 09:56:28 03Keskitalo * rcfa2e7120198 10/crawl-ref/source/rltiles/ (dc-item.txt item/weapon/brands/i-antimagic.png): Add a placeholder tile for the antimagic brand. Fixes tiles compile. 09:56:28 03kilobyte * ra6f370e6c080 10/crawl-ref/source/ (46 files): Trim unused #includes somewhat. 09:56:28 03Keskitalo * r02321e87a786 10/crawl-ref/source/player.cc: Revert low MR for Mountain Dwarves and Hill Orcs. 09:56:38 blue_anna: battleaxe unrand:wrath_of_trog 09:57:01 So it did go through after all. :) 09:57:06 kilobyte, lifesaver! 09:57:43 Keskitalo: uh oh, your commits are _not_ in 09:58:13 hhmmmmm.. 09:58:49 could you try pulling to check? 09:59:05 kilobyte, ooo but what's the keyword for jewellery there? if I do "jewellery unrand:ring_of_charms w:5" it throws: Bad item name: 'jewellery' 09:59:23 kilobyte: I pulled your commits after that, but haven't pushed again yet, should I try that? 09:59:26 blue_anna: you want just "ring" 09:59:40 same problem with ring 09:59:53 Bad item name: 'ring' 10:00:07 I figure I should. 10:00:15 wonder if I can put "any" in there 10:00:33 Keskitalo: I checked on a different machine, pull says that sf/master points to my commits but not yours 10:00:33 any seemed not to throw anything :P 10:00:42 03Keskitalo * r0079878aff23 10/crawl-ref/source/rltiles/ (dc-item.txt item/weapon/brands/i-antimagic.png): Add a placeholder tile for the antimagic brand. Fixes tiles compile. 10:00:42 03Keskitalo * r288ec85d763a 10/crawl-ref/source/player.cc: Revert low MR for Mountain Dwarves and Hill Orcs. 10:01:51 kilobyte: Should be in now, probably CIA just got excited prematurely. 10:02:33 Looks like we were just pushing at the same time and it was a minor hiccup. 10:03:57 hmm ziggurat.des is throwing errors for me 10:06:04 oo 10:06:22 03j-p-e-g * r7c1893a64d64 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/branches/temple.des: Remove fixed altars from corrupted_temple. 10:06:22 is there some place you have to set "randart_with_underscores" names? 10:06:23 03j-p-e-g * r9c2ab8dac0d3 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/branches/temple.des: Five new temple maps, with 6-12 altars. 10:08:54 does antimagic just reduce the odds of monster casting a spell? 10:09:14 i see now 10:12:51 would someone please close https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2305 for me? I am completely resolved on my compile issue there now 10:13:03 heh spectre silence radius is pretty nice 10:13:28 maybe a bit too nice 10:17:12 blue_anna: Done 10:17:41 <3 10:18:08 haha, the silence radius is great 10:18:12 needs a tile I see 10:18:18 silence hilight in tiles is pretty neeat 10:21:34 though it won't be too bad if/when silence won't go through walls 10:23:32 melee characters will be tempted to drag the silence spectre to tomb 10:26:13 ooh man .. what processes the des files? 10:26:48 mapdef 10:30:58 Allow randomizing the number of altars in Temple maps (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2357) by jpeg 10:31:19 -!- Vandal has joined ##crawl-dev 10:33:26 Hey, I get the "radiating slience" monsters now too. 10:38:28 I'm putting a bounty on working code to implement: ITEM: ring unrand:ring_of_the_mage 10:39:16 probably needs to be set in mapdef.cc but I still havent found it 10:39:27 ITEM: battleaxe unrand:wrath_of_trog works 10:40:17 for battleaxe to work you'd think you need to use an item_def&.name() , but I dont see it 10:50:25 ring of wizardry unrand:ring_of_the_mage possibly 10:54:54 -!- nrook has joined ##crawl-dev 10:58:27 you should look at trove_artefacts for all your unrandart needs 11:00:22 ooo 11:00:25 syllogism, ty 11:02:00 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 11:03:46 syllogism, that does it :) 11:13:48 -!- mruuuu has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:32:28 -!- mruuuu has joined ##crawl-dev 11:46:30 -!- ortoslon has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:49:06 -!- ortoslon has joined ##crawl-dev 11:53:44 local_util.x_chance_in_y = function(x,y) 11:53:44 return (crawl.random2(y) + 1 <= x) 11:53:44 end 11:54:00 throwing [string "global_prelude"]:12: bad argument #1 to 'pairs' (table expected, got nil) 11:56:29 -!- Moriasc has joined ##crawl-dev 11:56:51 -!- purge has quit [Quit: .] 11:59:15 I found a disconnected region in orc... I forget whether this is currently supposed to happen? 11:59:40 there is an orc:4 bubble and an orc:3 bubble that are connected only to each other 11:59:47 no escape hatches 12:01:03 there's no required material at Orc:4 .. dont see how that could be a problem 12:01:38 where is elf placed? 12:01:52 the problem is that people can get shafted into it 12:02:17 and have no way out without teleport or digging 12:02:41 and elf is indeed in the disconnected region 12:02:51 ouch 12:02:55 that's neat 12:03:17 I thought elf was randomized to only sometimes appear -- not that it was just sometimes lost in the mix :) 12:04:23 elf always exists, yes 12:09:22 where is the crawl lua object defined for des files? 12:10:07 elliptic: there's a fix for a bug with this in 0.8 12:12:57 http://nopaste.dk/p2311 12:13:15 could use help debugging that 12:14:14 I dont understand how a call to crawl.random2() is calling up clua:util.pairs() 12:15:22 or why the error is on the declartion line rather than the line with the crawl object 12:17:15 here's the source with the full lua: http://nopaste.dk/p2312 12:17:56 blue_anna: the error message is referring to line 12 of the prelude 12:17:59 not of the .des file 12:18:07 ooo 12:24:40 doy, do you know how to debug that? 12:25:17 well, it looks like 'values' is nil 12:25:19 you should fix that 12:26:03 ooo my hash_join function ! 12:26:25 that was it! 12:28:06 03j-p-e-g * r35e61e22262c 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/branches/temple.des: Add Cyrus' 13-altar Temple designs. 12:28:08 03j-p-e-g * rfd8c75fbca41 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/branches/temple.des: Add variants of existing Temple designs with fewer altars. 12:33:16 !learn add ideas eating food while sick/poisoned should have a chance to abort the action (like a hangover) 12:33:17 ideas[294/294]: eating food while sick/poisoned should have a chance to abort the action (like a hangover) 12:35:32 -!- elliptic has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:00:47 -!- Anym has joined ##crawl-dev 13:24:28 -!- eith has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:26:08 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 13:31:10 haha, 78291 beat sprint in 15 minutes 13:34:58 what combo? 13:36:35 !lg N78291 won sprint min=dur 13:36:36 8. 78291 the Transmogrifier (L10 DGEE), escaped with the Orb on 2010-07-18, with 256567 points after 3364 turns and 0:12:22. 13:36:44 !lg N78291 won sprint t min=dur 13:36:45 1. 78291 the Annihilator (L17 DEFE), worshipper of Vehumet, escaped with the Orb and 3 runes on 2010-08-22, with 3604318 points after 18080 turns and 0:15:42. 13:38:08 12:22 13:38:41 dpeg: that was a different sprint 13:38:45 ah 13:38:51 the DEFE 15:42 is the relevant one 13:38:52 zipcode is a quick guy :) 13:42:57 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 14:08:33 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:11:39 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Quit: Page closed] 14:12:11 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 14:29:28 hey cao with tiles 14:35:00 clearly it needs some work :O 14:35:01 http://img838.imageshack.us/img838/6117/tiles.png 14:37:03 haha 14:37:04 :D 14:37:16 is that net_tiles? should look better than that 14:37:34 it's not 14:37:57 ??nettiles 14:37:57 nettiles[1/2]: http://www.mediafire.com/?zmyzge3o2wd 14:38:18 does that work? 14:38:32 sort of 14:38:32 I was messing around with this: http://www.roguetemple.com/z/noteye.php 14:40:38 wow this is pretty cool 14:40:40 what's wrong with it? 14:40:57 well it mostly lacks tiles interface for one 14:40:59 oh I guess the inventory box doesn't work 14:41:29 it hasn't been worked on since May since the author is apparently quite busy 14:42:46 I would use it for sure if it worked like the real thing 14:48:57 !lg * when=t ktyp=winning s=char 14:48:58 252 games for * (when=t ktyp=winning): 37x SpEn, 20x DDNe, 18x GhFE, 14x MfCr, 14x HaTm, 10x SEAs, 8x MfIE, 6x HEWz, 5x HaBe, 5x HECr, 4x SpVM, 4x DSNe, 4x HEIE, 4x DDCK, 3x DSVM, 3x MfTm, 3x KoCr, 3x DEWz, 3x SEIE, 3x HEFE, 3x DSBe, 2x DECj, 2x OgHu, 2x MfFE, 2x DEFE, 2x DSAs, 2x KoBe, 2x DSWz, 2x NaIE, 2x DSFi, 2x NaWz, 2x DEIE, 2x MDFi, 1x MuSu, 1x MfMo, 1x CeAM, 1x DDBe, 1x OgCr, 1x SETm, 1x D... 14:52:59 holy shit, count heavy armour chars on this list 14:53:34 indeed 14:54:00 ddck i guess 14:54:23 and maybe dsbe 14:54:41 !log * t win char=DSBe 14:54:41 3. Tenaya, XL27 DSBe, T:174471: http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/Tenaya/morgue-Tenaya-20100820-235710.txt 14:54:55 ev too 14:55:40 I'm afraid to check those two MDFis, or they turn out to run around in robes too :p 14:56:15 one is dpeg at least :P 14:56:24 it didn't seem that heavy armour was *that* bad, i got a ddbe to zot:5 in gda fairly easily 14:56:42 wonder how much is just general perception of "heavy armour is bad" 14:56:42 DD have damage shaving 14:57:22 I think there's a definite case of "heavy armour is worse than light armour for almost any char" 14:58:33 light armour gives you: almost as much AC, then EV, spells. heavy armour has only GDR with means very little, and less randomness 14:59:17 and slightly higher hp max i suppose 14:59:52 how about heavy armour + shields 15:01:23 in 0.5 and earlier, if you had heavy armour, you could skip shields and enjoy better damage of a two-hander. Now, with crippled armour, there's really no such option. 15:07:52 yes 15:08:06 although my MDFi felt appropriately safe... 15:08:19 ...I felt I didn't do enough damage (used a shield) 15:08:41 I think we have boosted GDR and we should keep doing so until it is actually meaningful 15:09:23 indeed, this is something EV chars can't get by simply amassing spells/randarts 15:10:13 what we should probably do is actually run some computations 15:10:30 of heavy vs light armour characters at various points in the game 15:10:38 and look at the average damage they're taking 15:11:30 doy: I think by has taken some steps to get those numbers 15:11:40 regarding fsim 15:11:47 there's a branch with some fsim updates 15:11:58 what we'd need for each sample: (AC,EV,SH) and typical monsters you meet at that point 15:13:05 Everyone will take home from the 0.6/0.7 episode is that EV is good for something :) 15:17:43 kilobyte: heavy armour is actually better off without a shield currently 15:18:37 elliptic: for a very, very short window at the start of the game 15:18:50 kilobyte: what are you basing that on? 15:18:56 I've won heavy armour chars with no shield 15:18:57 it was fine 15:19:29 elliptic: my DDCK had a GDA from D:5, and I used a broad axe and a large shield just a short while later 15:19:35 why? 15:19:38 without issues 15:19:52 sure, you can use a shield 15:20:02 but not using one is certainly a viable option 15:20:23 and I think it works better in my personal experience 15:20:48 If two parties claim that both A and not-A is better, that's generally okay. So that may hold for using shields. But everyone agress that EV is better than AC right now. 15:21:26 dpeg: for the vast majority of chars, going light armour is better than going heavy armour, yes 15:21:45 I wish people would stop calling them EV and AC since that isn't the issue 15:22:14 dpeg: and that's why the majority of chars we see are of races with best dodging apt: Sp, Mf, DD 15:22:18 elliptic: yes, but we know what they (we) mean 15:22:28 yeah 15:22:29 Do you have shorter terminology at hand? :) 15:22:54 heavy and light isn't that much longer 15:23:13 hvy lgt 15:23:25 :P 15:23:34 arm ddg 15:24:01 kilobyte: people don't play DD for the dodging 15:24:07 EV means if i make my reflex save i take no damage, right? ;) 15:24:25 Anym: with 0.6 tiny EV penalties with good Str, you dodge nearly as well in armour 15:24:55 Anym: like, one of my chars had 3 less EV in dragon armour vs a robe 15:25:12 that could probably stand to be toned down 15:25:35 it was toned down in 0.7 15:25:45 0.5 and earlier basically nuked your EV if you had any armour 15:26:12 elliptic: I don't recall any changes there 15:26:26 I'm pretty sure it was changed 15:26:46 part of the big armour change package 15:31:55 -!- ortoslon has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:32:28 elliptic: I'm browsing all relevant commits, and I can't seem to find any change 15:33:28 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:35:09 how do I ensure with 100% probability that one of three maps will occur in a range of levels? DEPTH: :- and TAGS: uniq_ ? right 15:35:51 make the weight 9999 15:35:59 i think you need PLACE, not DEPTH, but i might be wrong 15:36:23 oo doy, st_ thank you 15:36:26 i don't know if PLACE supports a range 15:36:46 but DEPTH just means "this is where the map is valid", PLACE means "always put the map here" 15:37:28 PLACE accepts the same range specification that DEPTH does the syntax document doesnt make that very clear 15:38:17 kilobyte: http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl-ref.git;a=commit;h=6296e81716315ba0d64aaefe8571f4f40983642f 15:38:22 blue_anna: we shouldn't encourage use of PLACE 15:38:43 I dont see a single example of a range with PLACE -- how can I do it with depth? 15:39:06 DEPTH: x:y-z and CHANCE: 100% and chance_ 15:39:08 ? 15:39:18 blue_anna: what are you actually trying to do 15:39:50 I have 3 treasure maps, with 3 different weights .. one of them should always occur between dwarf:2 and dwarf:4 15:40:00 only one 15:40:52 elliptic: the only relevant commit is 6296e817, and it doesn't penalize armour without a massive -EV (GDA). Things like DA or IDA are unharmed. 15:41:43 elliptic, are you solid on the code for the speed penalty for shields? 15:41:55 perhaps (ice) dragon armor should have a larger evp 15:42:03 I always wanted to play a Naga with a buckler shield and bow like in the sinbad movies - but the penalty sucks 15:42:18 medussa in the sinbad movie 15:43:07 kilobyte: 30 * (size_adjusted_EVP - 1) / strength doesn't sound small to me 15:43:23 with strength 10, that's 6 EV for dragon armour, no? 15:43:34 doy: that would make no one use them, since plates are available right from the start 15:43:58 kilobyte: they could be -4... plate is -6 15:44:39 elliptic: 1. that added penalty replaces another that was removed from another place, 2. the new formula rewards Str instead of the armour skill... of course with just 10 str it's not going to be good 15:45:34 that commit doesn't say anything about replacing another penalty 15:45:52 kilobyte: I freely acknowledge that I fucked up the AC overhaul. 15:46:04 But it seemed urgent and no one else was undertaking it :/ 15:46:18 I stick to gods, maps and interface. 15:46:20 kilobyte: well, resistances 15:46:26 ^ +should 15:46:35 but yeah, i guess 15:47:41 dpeg: it's hard to balance things well with just several people playing trunk regularly 15:48:12 kilobyte: perhaps. The old system was poorly understood, it seems. With red herrings like GDR around... 15:48:14 actually .. why would I need to add a CHANCE line if it is 100% ? 15:48:18 kilobyte: there were far more than several people playing 0.6 trunk regularly 15:48:45 but yeah, very hard to balance something like this 15:48:57 doy: plates have rF+, rC+ or +rN+. IDA has rC++ rF- -- the vulnerability is worse than that extra point. 15:49:00 blue_anna: it is possible to do what you want, but I lack the time to dig through this properly. 15:49:20 How big are your maps? 15:49:28 kilobyte: dragon armour is a lot more popular than ice dragon armour, because rF is far more important than rC in zot 15:49:44 it's still the tournament, you might get more players on cdo later 15:49:49 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev 15:49:55 dpeg, each map isnt that big .. but there's 750 lines of them 15:49:56 You could define three maps (dummy, dummy, real map) for dwarf:2, two maps (dummy, real map) for dwarf:3 and another map for dwarf:4. 15:50:20 blue_anna: plus the bits that you use only one of the real maps. 15:50:51 I recall that DrPraetor sent an urgent mail close before 0.6 release about how we have to change something. 15:50:58 Should I dig that up? 15:51:25 dpeg, no, let me hack at it -- thank you 15:52:46 Dwarf maps and DrPraetor's request are disjoint topics :) 15:58:19 -!- galehar has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.8/20100722155716]] 15:59:29 03kilobyte * re4147bc07248 10/crawl-ref/source/player.cc: Fix the size factor for armour EV penalty not affecting anyone but spriggans. 16:00:19 I was wondering whether that was intentional 16:00:25 lol 16:01:14 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 16:01:40 this nerfs Ko (bad), Ha (they deserve it), boosts Og (who need all the boosts they can get), Tr (=), Na (not a good thing), Ce (good, heavy was useless for them) 16:02:01 but above all, it's more for consistency 16:02:37 yeah 16:02:37 the alternative would be to delete the size factor, since it affected only Sp who don't ever bother with heavy 16:03:20 poor kobolds 16:03:53 not like many kobolds were wearing anything other than a robe either 16:04:11 maybe randart leather 16:04:29 or leather 16:04:36 but yeah, pretty much no change 16:04:38 this didn't affect anything with EV < 2 16:04:46 *EV penalty 16:04:46 kilobyte: did you indicate these implications in the commit message? 16:06:11 just the list of races with body_size(BODY) != MEDIUM 16:06:32 ok 16:06:47 the whole point of that size factor is debatable 16:06:57 more verbosity might have helped a bit to find out later where some species got harder/easier 16:07:19 my commit fixes it having no effect through what seems an off-by-one error 16:07:44 but in effects it turns dormant code into something that matters 16:09:50 I think the main effect is to boost OgBe/TrBe by making it better for them to use dragon armour 16:09:58 or maybe even non-Be 16:12:22 elliptic: well, that's a good net effect 16:12:26 yes 16:12:52 oo 3 orc warriors 16:12:53 hmmm 16:14:07 the highlight for a distracted creature is sometimes the same color as the creature 16:14:39 nope, all three were asleep 16:14:44 huh 16:14:47 what has happened with the kilobyte commit? small races are worse with armour and large are better? 16:14:48 Zannick: that would result in a solid rectangle in that colour 16:15:00 kilobyte: yeah, that's what i mean 16:15:17 and then i have to x them to see which is the ogre and which is the rat 16:16:12 i have noticed that some creatures get their foreground color modified for that 16:16:34 casmith789: yeah. Before, spriggans suffered from 1.5 as bad armour penalty, but a bug prevented other non-standard races from getting there. 16:16:44 aha 16:17:06 casmith789: the penalty is x1.25 for kobolds and halflings, x0.75 for Og, Tr, Na and Ce 16:17:13 and somehow, not Dr 16:17:19 oh cool, buffs naga? 16:17:26 this is the bad part 16:17:37 nagas don't need any buffs 16:17:37 I guess most naga wear robes anyway atm 16:18:01 how does letting the penalty apply buff some races? 16:18:09 there was a time when we never had yellow on yellow glyphs 16:18:13 but that got lost somehow :/ 16:18:24 dpeg: ? 16:18:39 Zannick: for big races, it's a bonus 16:18:53 i think there might be some green on green, too 16:18:55 kilobyte: ah 16:19:22 draconians get all the armour restrictions as if they were a large race, but none of the benefits 16:19:28 is that intentional? 16:19:54 not sure 16:20:15 I think all the naga wins in 0.7 have been casters though, probably wearing robes 16:20:25 so I guess it doesn't really buff nagas 16:20:30 casmith789: lemme take a look 16:20:46 NaAr won but that wore a robe 16:20:51 perhaps not to take 0.7 as a point of reference 16:20:52 all the best naga wins were wearing archmagi 16:20:54 :P 16:20:57 casmith789: hmm, with deformed body, they indeed would hardly benefit from armour 16:21:04 yes 16:21:18 I doubt it will be unbalancing 16:21:31 they get +ac mutations though 16:21:44 does +ac get affected by armour skill? 16:22:05 casmith789: you're right, every single naga win in the tournament used a robe 16:22:07 AC itself does, yes. 16:22:44 no 16:22:44 maybe a naga could get away with SDA or regular dragon armour, i dunno if that'd be worthwhile though 16:22:47 I used IDA on my NaNe while doing cocytus 16:22:47 I meant, is the boost bigger because of the AC mutations? cause I thought it was just based on what you were wearing 16:22:48 kilobyte: every single win in the tournament used a robe, pretty much 16:23:01 "every" 16:23:02 doy: not!! 16:23:04 but it gave me worse stats than my RoR 16:23:08 !lg . won 16:23:09 6. jokeserver the Swordmaster (L27 MiPa), worshipper of The Shining One, escaped with the Orb and 15 runes on 2010-08-06, with 12786282 points after 125395 turns and 10:43:47. 16:23:10 casmith789: correct 16:23:16 "pretty much" 16:23:21 yes :/ 16:23:26 elliptic: which half is correct? :) 16:23:41 armour skill doesn't help AC from muts 16:23:48 okay, good 16:23:56 it looks like there were less than ten armour wins in the tournament 16:24:06 MDEn may be one 16:24:08 !lg * t win 16:24:08 253. MarvinPA the Bewitcher (L17 SpEn), worshipper of Elyvilon, escaped with the Orb and 3 runes on 2010-08-23, with 1607280 points after 48629 turns and 3:34:52. 16:24:28 !won * t 16:24:29 * (t) has won 253 times in 46713 games (0.54%): 38xSpEn 20xDDNe 18xGhFE 14xHaTm 14xMfCr 10xSEAs 8xMfIE 6xHEWz 5xHECr 5xHaBe 4xDDCK 4xDSNe 4xHEIE 4xSpVM 3xDEWz 3xDSBe 3xDSVM 3xHEFE 3xKoCr 3xMfTm 3xSEIE 2xDECj 2xDEFE 2xDEIE 2xDSAs 2xDSFi 2xDSWz 2xKoBe 2xMDFi 2xMfFE 2xNaIE 2xNaWz 2xOgHu 1xCeAM 1xDDAr 1xDDBe 1xDDCr 1xDGCr 1xDGEn 1xDGWr 1xDSCK 1xDSMo 1xDSSt 1xDSSu 1xDSWn 1xDrSt 1xDrWz 1xHEAM 1xHECj 1xH... 16:24:32 I wouldn't call that game a typical win, if you want a point of reference 16:24:49 !lg * t won s=nrune 16:24:50 253 games for * (t won): 153x 3, 39x 15, 30x 4, 8x 5, 6x 16, 4x 6, 2x 0, 2x 9, 2x 14, 1x 7, 1x 12, 1x 20, 1x 72, 1x 17, 1x 22, 1x 10 16:25:18 my one decent attempt at armour in the tournament ended up swapping to a robe in zot and turning into a caster, he just couldn't handle zot without spells 16:25:23 DDCK, DSBe, DSFi, MDFi, DDBe are some likely armour suspects there 16:25:24 kilobyte: melee characters can currently abuse silent spectres by just dragging them around 16:25:35 marvinpa: cast in heavy armour, it's easy! 16:25:41 to be honest if you'd found a wand of hasting or something MarvinPA it'd be fine :p 16:25:54 most of the time i "cast" in heavy armour it's invocations 16:25:59 true, i was pretty underequipped and probably rather bad at playing armour characters :P 16:26:04 making monster spellcasters immune to the effect isn't really good either though 16:26:16 eg oka haste or might, or tso summons 16:26:20 syllogism: good point, how would you propose to deal with that? 16:27:08 before, to cast in heavy armour, you needed xp for the Armour skill. Now, you need str. This means you don't have int. 16:27:19 it's pretty difficult honestly, might have to make most monster casters immune 16:27:30 make them not use stairs? 16:27:37 that's a good idea 16:27:56 and definitely not a valid summon undead monster :P 16:28:29 i did get to zot in crystal plate at some point in 0.7 development i think, and it was alright 16:28:44 but crystal plate is so damn rare :P 16:30:46 make acquiring crystal plate easier at high armour skill 16:31:09 syllogism: +1 16:31:13 kilobyte: getting enough str to use plate isn't hard on some races 16:31:20 that and getting high int 16:31:59 heck, I feel like adding a big vault with crystal trees, crystal golems and a guaranteed crystal plate 16:32:21 crystal bushes 16:32:27 crystal golems should drop crystal golem hides :P 16:33:05 crystal golem mail 16:33:27 we need bone dragon armour! 16:33:35 bone dragon hide! 16:33:39 wait.... 16:45:02 late game melee uniques should have more CPMs 16:49:33 -!- Moriasc_ has joined ##crawl-dev 16:49:55 except wayne who should have an animal skin 16:50:24 sure, flavour beats that 16:52:17 -!- Moriasc has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:52:28 -!- Moriasc_ is now known as Moriasc 16:58:07 -!- Anym has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.8/20100722155716]] 16:58:30 while we are on the subject of wayne flavour, is there any reason why he has speed 7? 16:58:42 not that I know of 16:58:49 Is there speech reflecting on that? 16:58:58 Perhaps he follows Chei :) 16:59:08 "dwarves have shorter legs" 16:59:11 he follows oka 16:59:17 dpeg: no, the whole point of wayne is that he follows oka 16:59:48 I don't like uniques who follow Okawaru. 17:00:06 dpeg: you just don't like Okawaru, period 17:00:26 is it ok to bump Wayne's chances for CPM? It's currently 5%. 17:00:53 kilobyte: I am just stressing the point occasionally, just in case someone missed it. 17:01:07 wayne is scary enough at speed 7 :p 17:01:42 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:01:48 mu_: it would help to make monster might more reasonable 17:02:05 +50% damage is sort of not at all how player might works 17:02:14 haha 17:02:17 i didn't realise 17:02:19 what about 9, just so spriggans can't run from him when he's hasted? 17:02:41 kilobyte: 10 would be more flavourful 17:02:49 ...that would be why i thought he wasn't that dangerous when he cast might 17:03:45 elliptic: yeah 17:04:03 you could give him a big chance of having an animal skin 17:04:13 to compensate 17:04:25 autoinscribed {god gift} 17:04:39 he's supposed to be the most typical MDFi[Oka]... including mandatory axes, per the flow chart (nowadays it's better to use maces on MD) 17:04:49 90% animal skin, 10% CPM 17:05:00 why the skin? 17:05:05 kilobyte: I disagree about maces on MD 17:05:08 03j-p-e-g * r494127182d4e 10/crawl-ref/source/dungeon.cc: Fix comment typos. 17:05:10 03j-p-e-g * rdbe6ad3950b9 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/variable/altar.des: Add overflow altars for Xom. 17:05:11 just because everyone uses light today? 17:05:13 03j-p-e-g * r604d79d6c786 10/crawl-ref/source/rltiles/dc-misc/ (travel_exclusion.png travel_exclusion_centre.png): Make exclusion tiles semi-transparent. 17:05:28 because animal skin {god gift} is the okawaru standard 17:05:39 elliptic: *rotfl* 17:06:19 i thought he wasn't supposed to gift those now 17:06:29 but then i actually played oka for once and found out that he does 17:06:30 he still does in 0.7 at least 17:06:31 I thought because berserkers wear animal skins. 17:06:32 :( 17:07:02 dpeg: berserkers aren't okawaru worshippers generally :) 17:07:07 everyone always jokes that oka gifts a lot of animal skins 17:07:41 well, only in certain conditions 17:07:45 elliptic: I've been told! 17:07:49 namely, you have to be worshipping oka :P 17:11:01 any reason the server versions dont have tutorials btw? 17:11:23 its a bit annoying having to send newbies to offline versions :p 17:11:51 elliptic: about MD with maces: they get the same apt, but you get an order of magnitude more maces early on, and still like 2-3 times as many later, including quality ones. Broad axes not only have worse stats than high-end maces, but also are 1.5-handed while all such maces are 1-h. 17:12:21 kilobyte: axes+shields slightly better than maces+shields? 17:12:25 kilobyte: but all the common 1-handed maces are junk 17:13:23 dpeg: the other way around, maces don't suffer from the 1.5h penalty 17:13:24 it is really really painful to try to survive through midgame with only a morningstar 17:13:39 the 1.5h penalty isn't that large now unless you use a huge shield 17:14:08 elliptic: compare broads to eveningstars/demon whips, war axes to morningstars/spiked flails 17:14:22 kilobyte: eveningstar/demon whip are really really rare comparatively 17:14:28 that isn't fair at all! 17:14:41 ??war axe 17:14:41 war axe[1/1]: A one-handed axe. Acc: 0, Damage: 11, Delay: 160% 17:14:45 ??morningstar 17:14:45 morningstar[1/1]: A mace-group weapon. Not nearly as good as its big sister, the eveningstar. Damage: 10. Accuracy: -1. Delay: 150%. 17:14:50 maces are terrible, flails are awesome 17:14:53 ??spiked flail 17:14:54 spiked flail[1/1]: 12, -2, 160%. The best common 1-handed mace, but still rather worse than a broad axe or speed sword. 17:14:58 demon whips are common near the end game 17:15:14 you can easily get through a game never finding a demon whip or eveningstar 17:15:14 (as are all demon weapons) 17:15:24 you mean in pan/hell? 17:15:24 spiked flail/morningstar are slightly better than war axe, but using any of them until crypt:5 or wherever is really painful 17:15:25 if it's just 3 runes 17:15:26 but yeah, i've seen maybe two eveningstars in recent memory 17:15:53 i'm not sure why eveningstars are even rarer than demon whips though, since they're not as good either i guess 17:15:56 "near the end game" doesn't help much if you are struggling in midgame because the best you have is a morningstar of protection 17:16:01 right 17:16:07 -!- Vandal has quit [] 17:16:21 MarvinPA: they have the same rarity, but have no guaranteed sources. Kind of like GDA vs CPM. 17:16:32 ah yeah, makes sense 17:17:35 certainly maces are the best weapon type in the long run if you intend to use a shield 17:17:42 that's sort of trivial 17:19:04 especially in a full game, where you'll be likely to go TSO or at least have a wide array of demon stuff to choose from, and where the butchering annoyance is gone 17:19:35 "full game" means allruner now? 17:20:10 since last I checked, most games weren't allruners 17:20:34 minimal games are meh, you do only the boring parts over and over 17:21:08 the tournament encourages that :( 17:21:38 2000 points for the max nrune win 17:21:41 (haha) 17:21:51 allruners are meh, you get the same fixed opponents and levels over and over 17:21:58 MarvinPA: yes, we know. Please read (and comment on) the tournament wiki page. 17:22:25 yeah, i've taken a look at it, seems like there's good plans there 17:22:52 syllogism: only a small fraction of that, and only the first time 17:23:16 The idea was not to boost allruners, but to encourage players to go beyond the standard 3 runer games. Guess we gotta be a bit smarter next time. 17:23:25 oh yeah, i suggest winning without entering any branches for a banner next year 17:23:26 :P 17:23:39 syllogism: you get 600 points, but just once, any subsequent allruner is worth just 12 extra over a 3-runer 17:23:45 well 17:24:03 if i could find a demonic rune every 10 minutes in pan 17:24:14 i could just play that game the whole month 17:24:26 so the score boost is just "allrune once, 3-rune all the rest of time" 17:24:35 whether or not i actually take them 17:24:35 I'm aware, it was a joke suggestion 17:24:52 allruners shouldn't be worth much more than a 3-runer though because they really aren't harder, just more tedious 17:24:55 kilobyte: yes 17:25:04 yeah, it'd be good if there was something encouraging going to hells/pan more than once 17:25:23 I don't agree they are more tedious, but yes they aren't really harder 17:25:26 except for some character types 17:25:27 extended endgame is a joke to any zot-ready caster 17:25:32 i still have to kill a couple of them 17:25:38 asmodeus ran away 17:25:39 non-casters have it much harder unless they have TSO 17:25:50 and i ran away from antaeus 17:26:13 are talking about actually fighting through or just grabbing everything 17:26:22 are you 17:26:29 grabbing of course 17:26:38 crawl isn't about the killing :P 17:26:57 So if you have good ideas, tell us please. 17:27:19 a shapeshifter unique! 17:27:25 ...or do you mean re: the tourney 17:27:51 shapeshifter unique is a great idea 17:28:40 I mean the tournament. Good ideas how to make any part of the game more interesting are always welcome, of course. 17:28:47 We have some cool new uniques now... 17:29:04 elliptic: this is such an old idea of mine... 17:29:12 https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:monster:uniques&s[]=gregor 17:29:43 dpeg: the simplest way of fixing the lack of incentive for allruning in tourney would be to make every allruner worth an extra 50 points, not just the first one 17:30:01 or something like that 17:30:09 make > 15 rune games worth more than +1 point 17:30:11 elliptic: true 17:30:13 "Humphrey, the Boggart"... really? 17:30:18 D: 17:30:28 don't look at me, my contribution was only gregor 17:30:32 :) 17:30:48 eg 17:30:59 !lg * won t max=nrune 17:31:00 253. clouded the Farming Archmage (L27 NaWz), worshipper of Sif Muna, escaped with the Orb and 72 runes on 2010-08-21, with 7253886 points after 312854 turns and 31:31:12. 17:31:25 that game was only worth 57 more points than a traditional allruner 17:31:44 each rune above 15 should be worth 1 more point than the last 17:31:50 exponential point growth! 17:31:58 well, we also don't want to encourage people to grind 17:32:02 yes yes 17:32:05 It's a tough problem. 17:32:20 some people like grinding 17:32:35 if it'll win me the tournament... 17:32:57 i guess if pan gets changed such that it gets harder over time, or whatever the plans were for it, that would help too 17:33:07 in preventing grinding that is 17:33:27 i still feel like trying a game wherein i spent eternity in pan finding demonic runes, until i get the top spot 17:33:38 of course, getting a rune 2000 times is tedious... 17:33:53 Zannick: you couldn't get them out 17:34:05 i wouldn't want to try it with no rod of discovery :P 17:34:07 dpeg: doesn't matter, the milestone is what gives me the tourney point 17:34:08 dpeg: wouldn't need to, you just need the milestone 17:34:27 i.e. apport it to me, escape, repeat 17:34:31 don't even need to pick it up 17:34:37 zannick: as someone who has farmed a hundred demonic runes in a game, I can say that you wouldn't survive 2000 :P 17:35:15 elliptic: even so, if i could get 100 in a game, regardless of taking them, before i die, it would still be worth more than actually winning 17:36:03 with rod of discovery you might be able to get one every ten minutes I guess 17:36:18 I was getting mine fairly quickly towards the end 17:37:27 not a horrible tourney strategy actually if you can stand the boredom and aren't so good at streaking... 17:38:04 i could streak if i didn't die so often in the early/early-mid game 17:38:39 !lg when=t s=place 17:38:39 30 games for doy (when=t): 5x D:2, 4x D:1, 3x D:3, 3x D:5, 3x D:$, 2x D:6, 2x D:4, 2x D:10, 1x Zot:5, 1x Slime:6, 1x Ossuary, 1x D:12, 1x D:14, 1x D:9 17:39:03 !lg . t s=xl 17:39:03 78 games for Zannick (t): 14x 1, 12x 4, 8x 2, 7x 3, 6x 10, 6x 8, 6x 5, 4x 11, 4x 7, 3x 6, 3x 12, 2x 9, 1x 13, 1x 14, 1x 27 17:39:10 !lg when=t s=xl 17:39:11 30 games for doy (when=t): 8x 3, 4x 27, 3x 4, 3x 8, 2x 1, 2x 5, 2x 2, 1x 7, 1x 14, 1x 12, 1x 9, 1x 6, 1x 10 17:39:23 my first game this tourney that reached the hive was an all-rune win. 17:39:34 i am in the middle of my second such game 17:39:56 er, third 17:40:26 !lg * when=t xl>16 / ktyp=winning 17:40:27 251/568 games for * (when=t xl>16): N=251/568 (44.19%) 17:40:35 !lg * when=t xl>17 / ktyp=winning 17:40:36 250/490 games for * (when=t xl>17): N=250/490 (51.02%) 17:40:49 !lg when=t xl>14 / ktyp=winning 17:40:50 1/1 game for Zannick (when=t xl>14): N=1/1 (100.00%) 17:41:00 !lg when=t9 xl>14 / ktyp=winning 17:41:01 3/12 games for Zannick (when=t9 xl>14): N=3/12 (25.00%) 17:41:08 so on average, if you can make it to xl 17, you have a better than even chance of winning 17:41:11 (: 17:41:23 neat 17:41:24 !lg when=t xl>17 / ktyp=winning 17:41:24 2/4 games for doy (when=t xl>17): N=2/4 (50.00%) 17:41:45 !lg . xl>16 / ktyp=winning 17:41:45 7/54 games for kilobyte (xl>16): N=7/54 (12.96%) 17:41:55 i am proud of my lack of zot deaths 17:42:14 i should not say such things, of course >.> 17:42:28 !lg place=~zot 17:42:28 3. doy the Axe Maniac (L27 DDBe), worshipper of Trog, annihilated by a Killer Klown on Zot:5 on 2010-08-02, with 506365 points after 91739 turns and 9:34:37. 17:42:45 only 3? 17:42:52 !lg br=zot 17:42:53 No games for Zannick (br=zot). 17:42:57 !lg br=pan 17:42:58 No games for Zannick (br=pan). 17:43:02 !lg place=~zot 17:43:02 5. KiloByte the Axe Maniac (L26 DDCK), worshipper of Makhleb, blasted by a storm dragon (bolt of lightning) on Zot:4 on 2010-08-10, with 491242 points after 103415 turns and 9:43:02. 17:43:04 !lg place=pan 17:43:05 1. jokeserver the Swordmaster (L27 MiPa), worshipper of The Shining One, blasted by Cerebov (iron bolt) in Pandemonium on 2009-08-09, with 696404 points after 114532 turns and 9:26:37. 17:43:11 5? WTH... 17:43:20 (: 17:43:32 !lg . place=zot 17:43:33 4. hyperbolic the Bewitcher (L17 SpEn), worshipper of Okawaru, annihilated by an Orb Guardian on Zot:5 on 2010-04-19, with 160336 points after 32321 turns and 1:49:11. 17:43:39 !lm kilobyte type=br.enter noun=zot 17:43:40 13. [2010-08-15] KiloByte the Shatterer (L27 SpBe) entered the Realm of Zot on turn 116114. (D:27) 17:43:44 !lg splat=y s=place 17:43:45 16 games for doy (splat=y): 3x Zot:5, 2x Vault:8, 1x Vault:3, 1x Tar:7, 1x Dis:7, 1x Abyss, 1x Vault:5, 1x Slime:6, 1x Elf:7, 1x Crypt:5, 1x D:21, 1x D:18, 1x Tomb:1 17:43:56 !lg splat=y s=place when=t 17:43:57 2 games for doy (splat=y when=t): 1x Slime:6, 1x Zot:5 17:44:12 !lg . splat s=place 17:44:12 8 games for Zannick (splat): 2x Vault:8, 1x Slime:6, 1x Elf:7, 1x Pan, 1x D:25, 1x Crypt:2, 1x Coc:7 17:44:39 that d:25 death was really stupid 17:44:57 but, on the other hand, i have learned why guardian spirit is bad for casters 17:44:59 !lg zannick splat d:25 17:45:00 1. jokeserver the Imperceptible (L23 SpAs), worshipper of Makhleb, blasted by Margery (bolt of fire) on D:25 on 2010-04-17, with 341585 points after 92499 turns and 9:55:03. 17:45:23 !lg Zannick splat=y place=d:25 -tv 17:45:23 1. jokeserver, XL23 SpAs, T:92499 requested for FooTV. 17:47:16 should have quaffed speed way earlier 17:47:17 (: 17:47:20 yeah... 17:47:46 and yeah, i'm not particularly convinced that gs is a good idea for anyone 17:47:50 or just read tele earlier 17:47:53 doy: sure is! 17:47:58 and not tried to run past margery 17:48:06 if you have no other need for MP then gs is better than nothing 17:48:21 Don't spawn D:1 monsters in Sprint (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2358) by MarvintheParanoidAndroid 17:48:23 so, early game i really liked having the pseudo hp 17:48:27 "if you have no other need for mp" 17:48:26 unfortunately such chars usually don't have many MP 17:48:33 i don't know that i've played any characters like that 17:48:37 probably best on SpBe or something 17:48:40 If you have a god with Invocations but you won't need the MP crucially, it's awesome. 17:48:47 doy: trogites? 17:48:52 doy: the moment we repair armour, it will be useful again 17:49:05 but then once i really get going like that, with spells and invocations, gotta trash it 17:49:08 oh, i guess trog invocations don't require mp 17:49:12 forgot about that 17:49:16 dpeg: I found GS bad even with okawaru 17:49:18 i got that early and was "sweet!" 17:49:21 elliptic: right 17:49:37 as spell-less MDFi of oka 17:49:56 MarvinPA: it gets more fun when the ood ramp-up starts 17:50:02 does that actually happen? 17:50:05 yup 17:50:14 i had a brown ooze eat the orb door, allowing me to apport it 17:50:15 (: 17:50:25 heh 17:50:29 speaking of which 17:50:46 you shouldn't be able to apport the orb all the way across the map to win sprint :P 17:51:02 heh 17:51:04 that's already fixed in trunk I think 17:51:10 oh it is? 17:51:11 didn't even think of that 17:51:16 well, you still can 17:51:20 the last couple of sprint wins have done it, i think 17:51:21 apporting the orb counts as picking it up 17:51:23 but you'll be harassed as if you carry it 17:51:33 cool 17:51:41 i won't make the FR i was about to make then :P 17:56:39 -!- mruuuu has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:05:49 and, there's the captain's cutlass 18:09:06 -!- mruuuu has joined ##crawl-dev 18:10:57 what about it? 18:13:16 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Quit: Page closed] 18:14:34 it's in my current game too 18:16:24 ah 18:17:06 i have a script that, given a list of logfiles, will grab the morgues and count how many times each fixedart appears 18:18:09 it was quite interesting 18:18:42 my last ascension i found salamander, leech and octopus again 18:18:53 discovered last night that 12 of the top 15 wins had salamander 18:19:12 salamander is also the most common fixedart among my games 18:19:19 2 others were cdo games, and the last one was 78291, of jivya, with no fixedarts 18:19:28 i also had ring of shoalin but that one doesn't seem atypically common 18:20:00 there isn't a good list of logfiles that i can grab, though 18:20:18 actually I think I've seen shaolin three times also 18:20:19 so i'd have to just copy and paste, if i wanted to run against, say, the 153 3-rune wins 18:20:29 I was only thinking about weapon/armour fixedarts 18:20:46 i've seen shaolin, but not incredibly often 18:20:53 maybe i'll start that later tonight 18:21:03 if you find an item in a lab or bazaar, but leave without taking it, will it remain in the log file? 18:21:07 no 18:21:08 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 18:21:09 no 18:21:14 Zannick: just scrape them from cdo, morgue files aren't big enough for it to matter 18:21:16 or in a zig 18:21:28 i think mangy trident was in a lab in my last game but i didn't pick it up 18:21:36 doy: that's what i do, but i need a list of the names of the files themselves 18:22:12 well, i guess i could just do a recursive wget or something 18:22:20 well 18:22:22 i'll look into it later 18:22:29 that *would* probably be big enough to matter 18:22:29 (: 18:22:35 * Zannick still at work 18:22:39 heh 18:22:43 !log * ktyp=winning 18:22:44 3090. MarvinPA, XL17 SpEn, T:48629: http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/0.7/MarvinPA/morgue-MarvinPA-20100823-204314.txt 18:22:45 !log * ktyp=winning -2 18:22:45 3089. daftfad, XL26 HEIE, T:132359: http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/daftfad/morgue-daftfad-20100823-165837.txt 18:22:48 etc 18:22:48 (: 18:23:05 yes. 18:23:39 yeah, querying sequell seems like possibly the best way of going about it 18:24:07 i could have a bot do it...153 times >.> 18:24:21 !log * t won nrune=3 18:24:22 153. MarvinPA, XL17 SpEn, T:48629: http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/0.7/MarvinPA/morgue-MarvinPA-20100823-204314.txt 18:24:27 !log * t won nrune=3 s=char 18:24:28 153. MarvinPA, XL17 SpEn, T:48629: http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/0.7/MarvinPA/morgue-MarvinPA-20100823-204314.txt 18:24:40 !lg * t ktyp=winning nrune=3 s=char 18:24:41 153 games for * (t ktyp=winning nrune=3): 32x SpEn, 17x DDNe, 14x GhFE, 10x HaTm, 8x SEAs, 5x MfCr, 3x HEIE, 3x HEWz, 3x SpVM, 3x HaBe, 3x DSVM, 2x MfIE, 2x DSNe, 2x MfTm, 2x OgHu, 2x DDCK, 2x DEIE, 2x DSWz, 2x DSBe, 1x DSAs, 1x MuIE, 1x MDFi, 1x MDBe, 1x DDCr, 1x CeAM, 1x MfVM, 1x SpBe, 1x HEFE, 1x DECj, 1x DrSt, 1x OgRe, 1x DSSt, 1x NaWz, 1x DDBe, 1x DSMo, 1x TrWn, 1x HaHu, 1x DSWn, 1x KoCr, 1x ... 18:25:06 haha, almost twice as many SpEn as the next most popular character 18:25:17 and that's only for 3-runes. 18:27:11 i wish i could do spen without dying :3 18:27:38 !lg spen 18:27:38 No games for Zannick (spen). 18:27:42 :3 18:36:32 being a triple sword-wielding stabber is pretty fun 18:36:33 (: 18:39:05 *snrk* 18:58:17 http://nopaste.dk/p2313 -- anyone understand subvaults? 18:58:46 -!- pointless_ has joined ##crawl-dev 18:59:00 I get erros like "No vault found for tag 'dhfh_hall_top'" in taht code, when it goes to place the main vault 19:04:16 why are you using subvaults for this 19:04:23 doy I was told to 19:04:52 I just .. I simplified that code back to three lines with no NSUBST and now it works :P 19:04:53 really 19:05:04 doy, yea, yesterday or the day before 19:05:23 because I was placing triggers and wouldnt know the item name to attach it to 19:05:33 if it was just one trigger I wouldnt need them 19:05:58 hm, i guess that sort of makes sense 19:06:46 there's few enough there that i'd think it'd be simpler to just use different glyphs for each of the things in the subvaults, and set up the triggers for each of them separately 19:09:31 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 19:11:23 aww 19:11:24 it didnt work 19:14:18 http://nopaste.dk/p2314 19:14:36 it rotated a map I specifically put "no_rotate" on 19:15:42 -!- syllogism has quit [] 19:22:08 -!- Moriasc has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.8/20100722155716]] 19:34:37 -!- mruuuu has quit [Quit: mruuuu] 19:38:32 -!- Mu_ has quit [Quit: Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place.] 19:39:03 -!- upsy has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:40:43 blue_anna: look at tutorial.des for the needed tags to make sure it won't rotate 19:43:55 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 19:46:48 where should I create the dwarf hall branch page on the wiki? 19:47:13 I'm ready to open up the proof of concpet an show it to others 19:56:23 -!- pointless_ has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.8/20100722155716]] 20:10:44 -!- eith has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:31:35 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:39:15 dwarf hall of fallen heros - proof of concept (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2359) by blue_anna 20:48:39 -!- blue_anna has left ##crawl-dev 20:50:49 -!- blackpenguin has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:57:40 -!- ortoslon has joined ##crawl-dev 20:58:32 -!- rwbarton has joined ##crawl-dev 21:06:18 -!- blackpenguin has joined ##crawl-dev 21:23:18 running fixedart stats on tourney wins 21:26:27 try analyzing cao and cdo separately 21:28:52 there seem to be no occurrences of red leather armour on cdo 21:31:08 -!- blue_anna has joined ##crawl-dev 21:33:20 -!- Enne is now known as enne 21:33:54 okay, so for all wins, we have 21:34:33 salamander 113/244, 112/186 CAO, 1/58 CDO 21:34:43 heh 21:35:02 leech 66, 66, 0 21:35:10 octopus 66, 66, 0 21:35:18 -!- ortoslon has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:35:34 dispater 38, 28, 10 is next 21:35:46 and asmodeus 34, 24, 10 21:35:55 yeah those don't matter 21:35:55 those are in there for comparison 21:36:00 sure 21:36:26 are you getting these from morgues or .lsts? 21:36:30 or both 21:36:35 of 3 rune games, there were 153 21:36:39 both 21:36:54 what about morg/vampire's tooth? 21:37:01 the morgue has their equipment, the .lst what's left on the ground in the permanent levels 21:37:02 and captain's cutlass 21:37:21 morg, 32, 1, 31 21:37:37 cutlass...uh... 21:37:38 aha, maybe that's why people are reporting different ones 21:37:47 this is surreal 21:37:52 no cutlass? 21:37:56 black sabre? 21:38:03 there must be cutlass 21:38:04 Zannick: i've certainly found the cutlass several times 21:38:11 captain's cutlass 21:38:12 it might be a problem on my end 21:38:13 maybe the ' 21:38:22 no, probably capitalization 21:38:26 yeah that 21:39:24 okay, cutlass 72, 70, 2 21:39:40 tooth 25, 2, 23 21:40:01 so people on cao are seeing salamander, leech, octopus, and cutlass a lot 21:40:11 people on cdo are seeing vamp tooth and morg a lot 21:40:19 how confusing 21:40:27 !lg . ghfe x=src 21:40:28 4. [src=cdo] elliptic the Destroyer (L20 GhFE), worshipper of Sif Muna, escaped with the Orb and 3 runes on 2010-08-14, with 1478296 points after 60099 turns and 6:02:09. 21:40:42 four winds 30, 25, 5 21:41:07 shaolin? 21:41:07 zannick: how hard would it be for you to pastebin the whole list? 21:41:09 shaolin 27, 18, 9 21:41:10 I'm poking around the artefact generation code now 21:41:16 what should the message be for a mosnter's vampiric draining? 21:41:19 rwbarton: have fun with that 21:41:29 elliptic: not very, but i probably formatted it badly 21:41:31 yes... I am adding copious mprfs 21:42:06 I also don't know which of these behaviors I should be expecting if either :/ 21:42:24 can you see for the hat of the alchemist? 21:42:35 are there OS differences between CAO and CDO? 21:42:45 e.g. 32-bit vs. 64-bit? 21:42:45 give me a few minutes and i should have the full list up 21:42:49 cool 21:44:20 simple_monster_message(monster, " draws strikes and is healed!"); 21:44:23 close enough ? 21:44:32 ** strikes and is healed 21:54:34 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 21:54:59 okay, pastebinning 21:57:12 well, I found one bug at least 21:57:19 Found a red leather armour. 21:57:31 red leather armour? 21:57:34 aw, geez, one sec 21:57:34 CAO and CDO are both 64 bit machines 21:57:37 it's even a bug that involves undefined memory access 21:57:50 And I believe that they both use Adeon's hardened PRNG 21:57:58 so it could conceivably explain this behavior 21:58:03 And are compiled with dgl enabled. 21:59:15 the call to get_unrand_specialness at about artefact.cc:1672 should be using i, not index 21:59:21 I remember a while ago Napkin saying he changed the RNG, but he may have been joking or something 22:00:12 index is i + 180, which probably points past the end of the unranddata array 22:01:02 or I guess a better fix is to subtract UNRAND_START inside get_unrand_specialness 22:01:25 how do you tell whether you should use the or a when a mosnter messages about doing something to your summons? 22:01:30 st_: no, he did 22:01:35 The or A 22:01:36 st_: he enabled access to /dev/urand or so 22:01:56 I have a really hard time seeing how this could produce the behavior we're seeing 22:02:13 blue_anna: there should be a "get article" function somewhere. 22:03:14 okay, i had lost a couple games due to a concatenation error 22:03:39 http://pastebin.ca/1923899 22:03:53 salamander is king 22:04:04 then captain's cutlass 22:05:07 oh, i left out game totals, http://pastebin.ca/1923900 22:06:04 salamander in more than half of cao wins, morg in more than half of cdo games 22:06:34 so it looks like there is some extra mechanism which tends to produce salamander hide armour etc. on CAO and morg etc. on CDO 22:06:39 in addition to normal artefact generation 22:07:06 if anything it could be a memory error 22:07:21 e.g. the frequent weapon artefacts on CAO are all about equally common 22:07:22 what are the associated enums for these unrands 22:07:24 and the enum for those are being written in item generation or something 22:07:35 the actual numbers? 22:07:53 Leech is 200 22:08:03 wait no 22:08:05 199 22:08:26 salamander is 248 22:09:16 -!- nrook has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 22:10:17 rwbarton: you mean that you think that there are more fixedarts than intended and that salamander etc are the extras? 22:10:37 so the effect of the bug I found is that artefacts are arbitrarily assigned special/non-special status in some fixed way per compile 22:11:38 an artefact is special if some bit somewhere is a 1 22:11:53 most bits in the static data segment will be 0 22:12:27 so maybe _try_make_weapon_artefact and _try_make_armour_artefact are falling through to _try_make_item_special_unrand 22:12:46 and that produces leech etc. on CAO and morg etc. on CDO due to vagaries of compilation 22:13:06 special how? 22:13:23 there's an artefact flag called being "special" 22:13:45 what does that actually mean? 22:13:50 the code tries to generate a non-special unrand, then a randart, then a special unrand 22:13:54 can't be picked up by monsters 22:13:57 can't be tukima'ed 22:14:03 ah, old fixedart 22:14:10 right, sorry, also that 22:14:12 can be generated in the abyss if it was lost elsewhere 22:14:20 less frequent than others 22:14:24 supposedly :P 22:14:46 well, in this case they do :P 22:14:46 or maybe almost everything is special 22:15:03 maybe 22:15:07 well, I'm definitely sure that the effective special/non-special status of an artefact is not the intended one 22:15:18 it seems less likely that most artefacts would become special though 22:15:29 I suppose it depends on what data is after the unrandart table 22:16:17 in theory I could test this if I had a copy of the CAO crawl binary 22:16:22 it would be sort of unpleasant though 22:17:10 yeah, this does sound like it could be the cause though 22:17:22 but basically what I'm saying is that even if the non-special generation happens more often than the special generation, if there are very few special artefacts (e.g. just salamander hide), then the salamander hide could be more common 22:17:41 yeah 22:18:22 oh, and i have the captain's cutlass in my game 22:18:27 got it from a treasure trove 22:18:46 not that that matters... 22:20:42 I'll file a bug report with the bug I found 22:21:20 with a patch? 22:21:21 (: 22:22:03 it's just a 1-line change, should I make a real git patch or just describe the change in the bug report? 22:29:51 read past end of array in unrandart selection (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2360) by reid 22:30:38 -!- enne has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:31:59 -!- enne has joined ##crawl-dev 22:33:10 thanks to whoever it was who suggested the stats might be different on CAO and CDO, that was a rather large clue 22:46:21 well, according to Zannick's stats salamander hide armour is about twice as common as all other unrandart armour put together 22:47:49 (on CAO) 22:48:21 it could be that people don't pick up heavy armour though so those numbers are a little unscientific 22:48:24 oh wait 22:48:27 .lsts, never mind 22:48:56 could just be that there are only unrands for a few certain armour subtypes 22:49:05 and leather armour just happens to be the most commonly generated 22:49:24 I don't *think* the subtype matters, but that is certainly possible 22:52:43 no, .lst and .txts 22:52:47 i count what is carried 22:53:02 i can't count what is left in a temporary level 22:53:22 yeah, that only affects bazaars I think 22:53:36 well, and portal vaults with particular unrandarts 22:54:10 assuming people don't bring all their bad unrandarts to pan to dump them 22:54:21 also zigs and labyrinths 22:54:37 but probably not very significant 22:54:49 do .lst files have everything identified at game end? 22:54:52 yes 22:55:32 bazaars, zigs, labyrinths, wizlabs, ice caves, troves 22:55:47 i have found unrandarts in troves 22:56:03 you can find unrandarts anywhere 22:56:12 not in pan I think 22:56:29 really? I never realized 22:56:35 can someone please help me find why this case is blowing up? http://nopaste.dk/p2315 22:56:38 or so a comment I came across says 22:57:21 it looks like the special unrandart code gets called about 50% more often than the nonspecial code anyways 22:59:08 really it depends on the item_level where objects are generated 23:02:52 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Disconnected by services] 23:04:13 also by 50% more often I mean 3 times as often -- can't do arithmetic apparently 23:17:51 elliptic: turns out you can only get special unrandarts in pan, probably this isn't intended to be possible 23:18:19 ah 23:18:22 what about abyss? 23:18:34 abyss is basically like pan but possibly more special 23:18:49 you can't get nonspecial randarts in the abyss 23:19:10 I guess they didn't want it to be too easy to scum for fixedarts 23:19:45 and I think you can only get a special one if you lost it in the abyss already 23:19:50 right 23:20:13 however, I think you can scum for special ones in pan 23:21:58 I guess this means we could check everybody's notes to see which artefacts are found in pan 23:22:10 but the answer is probably "none" regardless 23:23:39 there appear to be some randarts 23:23:55 -!- Pseudonut has joined ##crawl-dev 23:24:04 randarts can appear anywhere afaik 23:25:25 I wonder when this problem with fixedarts actually started 23:26:42 hahaha "short sword of the Original Sin" 23:27:32 Identified the +3 salamander hide armour (You found it in Pandemonium) 23:27:42 theglow/morgue-theglow-20100819-154822.txt:1692 23:27:44 the buggy line was written over a year ago 23:28:10 commit 7aa3305f 23:28:39 yes, randarts are fine anywhere 23:28:39 looks like the commit that unified unrand and fixedarts 23:30:20 fixedart distribution didn't seem particularly notable in 0.6 though 23:30:48 there could have been unrelated changes that affected which unrands were effectively special 23:31:29 e.g. if it happened that everything was special, you wouldn't notice anything 23:32:14 yeah 23:32:29 or just what things were chosen to be upgraded to unrand 23:32:45 salamander hide was new for 0.7, wasn't it? 23:32:50 no 23:32:53 oh 23:33:03 heh :) 23:35:27 I remember that I thought morg was new a couple weeks before tourney 23:35:54 since I didn't remember ever seeing it before and then suddenly saw it five games in a row or something like that 23:35:56 maybe the 0.6 build had some really obscure fixedart that no one picked up everywhere 23:36:20 I guess this was actually in 0.7 trunk 23:36:34 you were playing on cdo before that also, right? 23:37:14 !lg . src=cdo cv=~0.7 1 23:37:15 1. hyperbolic the Warrior (L27 DSFi), worshipper of Nemelex Xobeh, escaped with the Orb and 3 runes on 2010-04-08, with 1404779 points after 99656 turns and 8:40:20. 23:37:18 !lg . src=cdo cv=~0.7 3 23:37:19 3. hyperbolic the Ruinous (L5 DSWn), worshipper of Sif Muna, slain by an orc (a -1,+2 orcish mace) on D:4 on 2010-05-12, with 416 points after 4162 turns and 0:14:00. 23:37:22 !lg . src=cdo cv=~0.7 5 23:37:23 5. hyperbolic the Digger (L1 DSWn), slain by a hobgoblin (a -1,+0 orcish club) on D:1 on 2010-05-12, with 57 points after 454 turns and 0:02:25. 23:37:41 !lg . src=cdo cv=0.7-a 23:37:41 136. elliptic the Necromancer (L24 DSAE), worshipper of Kikubaaqudgha, escaped with the Orb and 3 runes on 2010-07-25, with 1632253 points after 64634 turns and 6:11:09. 23:37:55 I guess so 23:38:15 I switched back and forth between 0.6 and 0.7 trunk a fair amount 23:40:13 some oddities in unrandart generation (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2361) by reid 23:40:55 !streak . cv=0.7-a 23:40:56 hyperbolic has 8 consecutive wins (MfPr, DDCK, HETm, MDCr, GhWn, CeRe, MiBe, TrWr) and has won their last game (DSAE). 23:41:09 the last three games of that all had morg 23:41:15 I didn't check more 23:42:12 I suppose it's more likely that there were no effectively special unrands 23:43:20 seems plausible since CAO has 4 and CDO has 2 23:45:26 actually, I had five games in a row in that streak with morg 23:45:27 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev