00:08:03 June3: =s is irrelevant if stash tracking is automatic (which is the default, and which you shouldn't have a reason to change) 00:30:40 doy: ok, I am not sure what stash tracking does then. I'm not even sure what it means. 00:58:58 -!- elliptic has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:05:57 -!- purge has quit [Quit: .] 02:13:39 doy: I brought my question about stash tracking to the dev board because it should be easy to understand options mentioned in the manual. 02:19:47 -!- Fangorn_ has joined ##crawl-dev 02:25:29 Here's an example from the Ctrl-X context menu: [/] : Examine the next higher/lower level 02:26:41 I really don't know how to execute this command 02:27:18 what do the brackets mean? 02:34:20 Brackets are the command keys. Archaic keyboard commands for the win. :) 02:34:50 Would it be clearer like this: [ or ] : Examine the next higher or lower level 02:44:29 ouch! I just managed to use that feature, and feel like a dope. But I do think it could be clearer. 02:46:38 would the "or" help? 02:47:33 Yes. Maybe even '[' or ']'. No that looks worse! But the or is definetly better. 02:50:17 -/+ : Scroll level map 20 grids up/down. <--- this is acutally easy to understand. But oddly [/] didn't work at all for me. 02:50:25 ]/[ ? 02:50:55 Wouldn't the meaning of [/] be inferrable from other keys nearby? 02:51:43 Zao: lol! And yes ] / [ might work better than [/]. And yes, it might be inferrable. 02:53:35 But is not good form to have / used as or on the same page as it is used as a command. 02:53:50 example: / : Cycle backward through stashes (by default, all items). 02:54:26 Pick-up help used "or" already, so I'm changing all the "/" to it 02:54:38 I was thinking that [/] was a macro, or that [] meant to use the / key while pressing control ... 02:55:08 * . OK, cool, thanks Keskitalo. 02:56:48 No problem, thanks for pointing it out. 02:58:43 03Keskitalo * r4e21c95143b6 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/database/help.txt: Use "[ or ]" instead of "[/]" in level map help text, and change other similar entries to have "or" instead of "/". (June3) 02:59:36 Ok, here's one more. Ctrl-Dir does not work for me for untrapping, but * Dir does. It took me months to figure this out. 03:00:54 I thought the game just wasn't giving me feedback when I did the Ctrl-Dir. But when I finally tried *-Dir, I sudenly got feedback. 03:00:58 June3: Dir as in vikeys, arrows or numpad? 03:01:39 * Dir., Ctrl-Dir. : open/close door untrap, attack without move 03:01:55 ^quoting from manual 03:02:42 I would need to start a wizmode game to figure out which directionals I was using. 03:03:23 I think it was the arrow keys -- which should I have been using? 03:04:29 June3: Some terminals fail horribly at grokking shift-arrow/numpad and ctrl-arrow/numpad. 03:04:38 In an ideal world, all should work the same. 03:08:10 Well, if the failure rate is high, maybe it should say something in the list of commands. 03:10:58 I have still not managed to get any terminal in X to properly do numpad/arrow modifiers. I use PuTTY even on unix boxen. 03:11:51 Aw --- I would have expected my linux to do well with this :s 03:15:17 I realise now that the problem is already fixed, by having the *-Ctrl command, and listing it first. 03:22:51 by: Mummy curse nerf success, uproar at ##crawl ^___^ 03:27:25 -!- bhaak is now known as Forkney 03:27:48 -!- Forkney is now known as bhaak 03:39:37 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 03:41:49 03Keskitalo * re089c825acaa 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-stuff.cc: Let Kiku protect from ordinary mummy curses. (#1857) 03:42:24 LOL 03:45:27 -!- bhaak is now known as Forkney 03:45:46 -!- Forkney is now known as bhaak 03:46:31 -!- Danei has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:51:03 -!- Danei has joined ##crawl-dev 03:53:16 Keskitalo: wow, nice, ##crawl is on average crazy 03:59:20 Make Zin protect from Hell effects (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2259) by SlyShy 04:24:28 Clarity should protect against all sources of confusion. (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2260) by casmith789 04:47:16 -!- Moriasc has joined ##crawl-dev 04:49:51 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 04:54:37 Spell success should be shown as a percentage in-game (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2261) by evilmike 04:59:46 gah massive lag 04:59:54 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 05:01:21 !log dpeg t win 05:01:21 1. dpeg, XL25 MDFi, T:123030: http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/0.7/dpeg/morgue-dpeg-20100806-153942.txt 05:02:02 !log . t ddbe win 05:02:03 1. rob, XL25 DDBe, T:64499: http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/0.7/rob/morgue-rob-20100810-115002.txt 05:03:19 !log . t ghfe win 05:03:20 1. rob, XL27 GhFE, T:138390: http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/0.7/rob/morgue-rob-20100802-234557.txt 05:04:24 ??gdr 05:04:24 gdr[1/1]: Guaranteed melee damage reduction in 0.7 is (2.5*((body armour base AC) - 2)%, with damage prevented limited to ((total AC)/2). 05:04:34 ??gda 05:04:35 gold dragon armour[1/3]: 11 ac -9 ev +fire +cold +pois 110 aum. The best heavy armour around. Don't forget to butcher those golden dragon corpses *without* praying. One is guaranteed on Tiamat (who is not guaranteed). Remember, wearing/removing one is uninterruptible and takes forever! 05:06:45 !log keskitalo t win 05:06:46 1. Keskitalo, XL27 DEWz, T:163079: http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/0.7/Keskitalo/morgue-Keskitalo-20100804-183434.txt 05:08:13 !log * t win spen 05:08:13 21. MarvinPA, XL21 SpEn, T:79939: http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/0.7/MarvinPA/morgue-MarvinPA-20100811-000948.txt 05:17:23 my XL 17 vampire monk has better damage reduction against orb guardians than my winning DDBe (disregarding damage shaving) 05:29:44 http://sprunge.us/KPLS -- stats for orb guardian vs player at different values of ac/gdr/ev 05:33:32 ac:40 wins 05:34:18 ac:40 with damage reduction is better than ev:40 at least 05:36:31 yes, a bit 05:38:51 though this doesn't factor in that you might need to spend more time in melee due to reduced accuracy 05:39:16 and that the guy in light armour will be hasted 05:43:20 -!- Anym has joined ##crawl-dev 05:54:04 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 05:58:00 accuracy is overrated... I used a GDA since D:5, then with Axes 12 I used a broad axe and a large shield, and still didn't have big problems with misses 05:58:11 but access to spells is a major issue 05:58:38 by: I think on zot:5 you are probably hasted whatever armour you are in 05:58:45 unless you've been unlucky with speed potions 05:59:34 Zot:1-4 is deadlier than Elf to potions, but yeah, you can stash them away 05:59:50 and wands of hasting are immune to damage 06:01:38 you should have enough sources of haste for the big fights, but not for every fight, or even most 06:01:45 -!- Pseudonut has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:02:24 also, Roka nearly killed me just then 06:02:33 -!- flowsnake has joined ##crawl-dev 06:03:33 well, Zot:5 is THE big fight, so yeah, you can blow everything you have 06:03:35 the big fights = uniques and zot? cause that's about what I use haste for ingame 06:03:43 especially since you don't need that anymore 06:04:06 Zot is a lot of fights for a heavy armour fighter 06:04:15 just map & run 06:04:31 you can get through with barely any fights 06:04:40 even zot:5 is a lot of fights 06:04:47 teleport :) 06:05:11 suppose that works less well with little stealth and no apport 06:05:30 yes, and that's broken anyway, not something to base design on 06:05:45 but 1 wand of hasting & 1 recharge scroll you will be able to haste for every (difficult) zot fight 06:06:41 zot:5 isn't that many fights 06:06:58 mainly just ancient liches and orbs of fire are worth hasting for 06:07:15 and if you get into trouble 06:08:19 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 06:32:32 no 06:33:42 when butchering something with a $weapon of speed, does it take less time? 06:33:47 no 06:36:32 hahaha 06:37:21 fun how you can butcher as well with a knife as with a bardiche 06:47:53 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:53:40 -!- mruuuu has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:09:16 -!- mruuuu has joined ##crawl-dev 07:15:24 maybe the haste spell just needs to be higher level? say 8? 07:20:55 -!- Moriasc has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.8/20100722155716]] 07:21:31 -!- June3 has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:23:26 -!- Moriasc has joined ##crawl-dev 07:41:53 -!- nrook has joined ##crawl-dev 07:43:28 -!- nrook has left ##crawl-dev 07:50:35 alistair's vs rPois players (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2262) by daftfad 08:01:57 -!- Vandal has joined ##crawl-dev 08:08:28 -!- ortoslon has joined ##crawl-dev 08:22:33 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 08:32:20 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 08:32:25 Cheers 08:32:25 dpeg: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 08:32:30 !messages 08:32:31 (1/1) Keskitalo said (3d 6h 40m 27s ago): In my HEAM/F game, I did V:8 with oklobs by teleporting to a corridor and setting up the artillery there, if I recall correctly. 08:32:45 @whereis greensnark 08:32:45 greensnark the Grappler (L15 GhFE), a worshipper of Vehumet, saved on Lair:8 on 2010-08-08 after 32996 turns. 08:33:06 !seen greensnark 08:33:06 I last saw greensnark at Tue Aug 10 18:29:35 2010 UTC (19h 3m 31s ago) saying Ive attached the save on ##crawl-dev. 08:34:07 dpeg: hi! could you add a backdoor/easy mode for players named bhaak? 08:34:12 Keskitalo: Did you win a full runer? The runes count indicates this, but you didn't seem to get the bonus points. 08:34:19 @whereis bhaak 08:34:20 bhaak the Covered (L6 MDFi), a worshipper of Okawaru, saved on D:6 on 2010-08-11 after 5029 turns. 08:34:26 Keskitalo's game is still going 08:34:30 bhaak: There is TrBe for those players. 08:34:43 Some players even use SpEn but that's outright cheating. 08:34:43 !lm keskitalo char=dssu type=rune s=noun 08:34:44 24 milestones for keskitalo (char=dssu type=rune): 2x iron, 2x golden, 2x magical, 2x glowing, 2x slimy, 2x silver, 2x barnacled, 2x abyssal, 1x serpentine, 1x demonic, 1x bone, 1x icy, 1x obsidian, 1x dark, 1x decaying, 1x fiery 08:34:49 TrBe is easy mode? ;p 08:34:50 !lm keskitalo t char=dssu type=rune s=noun 08:34:50 12 milestones for keskitalo (t char=dssu type=rune): 1x fiery, 1x magical, 1x dark, 1x glowing, 1x silver, 1x barnacled, 1x demonic, 1x abyssal, 1x slimy, 1x golden, 1x iron, 1x decaying 08:34:57 dpeg: with TrBe I also die after an hour of play :) 08:35:01 by: ah! And it does not show on akrasiac b/c it is on CDO. 08:35:07 trbe is easy for the first hour maybe 08:35:29 bhaak: I see.. you want to win. :) 08:35:40 up to lair and all of orc is easy, lair if you know to use brothers on hydras 08:35:42 Derek took a TrBe and won =) 08:35:45 then it starts getting trickier 08:35:54 sure, that's the great thing about Trog 08:36:07 note that berserk is kind of broken in 0.7 08:36:10 I've been using some spare time here to rethink wraths. Will put that to the wiki todaay. 08:36:20 by: broken in which direction? 08:36:31 the non-combat penalties are double what they should be 08:36:48 by: ouch. I saw your commit, thanks for catching it. 08:37:01 so berserk is likely to end prematurely if you take a step or two 08:37:13 bhaak: MDFi can be won (even by me) but it's not as easy as it used to be. People recommend MfCr a lot. 08:37:36 by: yes, I wondered a little bit about this. (My MDFi used rage quite a lot.) 08:38:08 I like the crusades :) 08:38:50 Hey everyone, just wanted to compliment you on the good work with the Swamp. I did it today for the first time since probably 0.4 and found much more enjoyable than it used to be (even though I died on Swamp:5 due to foolishly underestimating the Lernaean hydra). 08:39:16 !lg anym swamp:5 -tv 08:39:16 2. Anym, XL16 DECj, T:50360 requested for FooTV. 08:39:43 It's embarassing really. 08:39:47 "it can't be much more dangerous than an 8-headed hydra" 08:39:54 or what did that rgrm poster say? 08:40:00 Anym: thank you 08:40:20 Anym: although we now get complaints that Slime is "the worst branch ever" :) 08:41:15 by: Yeah, that just about mirrors my character's last thoughts. :-P 08:41:46 what the description doesn't say is that hydra move fast in water 08:42:24 by: do you think it is possible for a berserker to kill the Lernaean hydra in melee with a fire weapon? 08:43:36 yes 08:43:41 dpeg: Hi! Yeah, still going. 08:44:04 Keskitalo: more power to you! I hope I can get the DDCK in. 08:44:07 certainly with haste if you move backwards while fighting 08:44:08 casmith789: cool 08:44:08 dpeg: especially if they are DS and have a passive attack 08:44:42 if you come back later (ie xl20) with good ac you can negate most damage 08:44:58 and good ev I imagine 08:45:02 Looks like Serpent of Hell is not a unique? 08:45:04 dpeg: Haven't been there yet, as that Swamp death was my most promising char since the heavy armour nerf. What's (supposedly) so bad about it? 08:45:15 Keskitalo: nope :/ 08:45:53 Weird Kirke porkalator problems (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2263) by BirdoPrey 08:46:10 Anym: the walls of Slime do a bit of damage now, which drives people crazy. 08:46:27 Although some (e.g. the devs) thinks it is a good change. 08:46:39 and corrode items which drives them more crazy :P 08:46:47 it's the corrosion that drives people crazy 08:46:54 But I think we should remove the corrosion... 08:47:09 Ah, I remember thinking that acidic walls sounded like it might be annoying when I first read about them... 08:47:10 rwbarton: oh, not just, but it certainly aggravates some more... 08:47:16 it's the fact that slime is unconnected and therefore requires digging coupled with the fact it is annoying 08:47:17 by: ^ what do you think? 08:47:39 maybe the slime just looks disgusting so they don't want to look 08:47:42 all those # 08:48:47 -!- dpeg_ has joined ##crawl-dev 08:49:12 casmith789: you always needed to use digging, if you were to explore Slime fully. Now you just need a bit more digging. 08:49:24 yes, but you need digging through acid walls now 08:49:33 which really means 3 wide corridors 08:49:49 it's a *lot* more than "a bit" :) 08:49:52 I believe that removing the corrosion from walls will suffice. 08:50:29 dpeg: the issue isn't exploring slime fully, but exploring slime enough to get to slime:6 08:50:38 -!- ortoslon1 has joined ##crawl-dev 08:50:38 -!- ortoslon has quit [Disconnected by services] 08:50:41 -!- ortoslon1 is now known as ortoslon 08:50:47 the last 2 times I've done slime there has been no route to get there without teleport/digging 08:50:48 People don't realise that not wanting to fight in corners or tunnels makes the branch much more different and interesting (see all the proposals for how to deal with RJ without slimy walls :) 08:50:55 casmith789: you can get down there. Even I could. 08:51:05 nope 08:51:09 it depends a lot on how it generates 08:51:15 not every time 08:51:23 also, I never cheese TRJ 08:51:28 have never and will never 08:51:33 so that part isn't a problem 08:51:34 i think it's mostly annoying because of how it breaks autoexplore and makes doing the branch an exercise in tedious movement, like the old Swamp used to be 08:51:43 RjY: yeah 08:51:53 part of the reason why abyss is annoying, actually 08:51:59 So you map first and then dig a bit. Where's the problem? We are talking about SLIME, not some other cozy Lair branch. I remember times when players would speak of Slime only in hushed, low voices... 08:52:26 the problem is it's annoying 08:52:35 mapping is a limited resource, i'd much rather save those for zot 08:52:40 I don't want to do it even if xl27 and with full corrosion proof gear 08:52:48 MarvinPA: decisions! 08:53:05 I almost died on my 15 runer in slime :) 08:53:06 yes, the decision generally being "i'm not doing a 15 rune game so no point bothering with slime" :( 08:53:15 so you're missing on the loot 08:54:02 but if i'm strong enough to win already that doesn't really matter 08:54:34 slime is still easy to cheese if you have a useless god 08:54:43 Look, only because you are used to the old Slime, got accustomed to it and because slimy wall corrosion is a bit too much, you won't tell me that Slime is now the worst place to be. The fact that you'll fight in the open is good. 08:54:44 I switched to jiyva just to steal the third rune on my HaTm 08:54:48 most of my wins before 0.7 were 4-rune wins, because i always though i may as well do slime for the fun of it 08:54:57 thought* 08:55:11 MarvinPA: yes, because Slime was so easy. 08:55:14 slime was fun - now it isn't 08:55:18 le sigh 08:55:21 four rune runs were easier than three rune runs :p 08:55:34 slimy wall corrosion isn't really a factor, since any corrodeable gear will succumb to the first two acid blobs anyway 08:55:49 i just don't think the slime walls are an interesting way of making it more difficult 08:55:57 only more annoying 08:55:58 but the current layout makes Slime a pain in the ass 08:56:00 that's not the point, and also, you don't get hit much if you have dmsl 08:56:10 kilobyte: yes, but it's a psychological thing and I am fine with removing it. But the rest is a lot of "they made it harder for us" whining. 08:56:11 the point is not making the optimal behavior to dig out every wall 08:56:12 you hardly get hit with DMsl and ranged attacks 08:56:32 i'm not at all against slime being harder! :P 08:56:39 if you remove the corrosion from walls, massive digging is no longer necessary 08:56:40 I regret having come here. 08:56:41 redo the layout generation so that you always get wide corridors 08:56:45 being hard is ok, being tedious is not 08:56:55 right 08:57:18 I believe that the "tedium" of doing Slime nowhere gets close to the tedium of doing Hive, for example. 08:57:41 let's just remove corrosion from acid blobs while we're at it 08:57:42 oh i agree, but i never do hive unless i absolutely have to for food and in that case i'm not even missing out on a rune or loot :P 08:57:47 what if the slime walls just considerably boosted the health and regeneration of adjacent J's 08:57:47 by: no 08:57:51 dpeg: we need azure bees! 08:57:51 ortoslon: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 08:57:53 hive is great fun with a decent area of effect spell 08:57:54 and scroll destruction from fire 08:57:56 !messages 08:57:57 (1/1) Keskitalo said (20h 5m 48s ago): Windows builds updated 08:58:02 by: you're totally missing the point! 08:58:25 the way to deal with acid blobs is not tedious and does not require resting for hundreds of turns to regain MP 08:58:38 I think that removing acid wall corrosion is okay. For later, we may want to change Slime layout a bit, but I am not really convinced on that matter. 08:58:43 the other issue that digging slime out is possible, yes 08:58:50 RjY: the Hive is pure tedium... some chars have to do it for the food, most do it for the loot and piety, but that doesn't make the branch good 08:58:53 by: the dig spell will go 08:58:54 I think 08:58:56 yes 08:59:15 what about LRD, shatter and iood? 08:59:36 I'd like to see slime layout tend more towards those where you don't need to do extensive digging 09:00:17 by: I agree. A simple pass of clearing up pillars after Slime level generation might do. 09:00:38 if the point of slime is to encourage fighting in the open then having slime generate more open and better connected ubbles is fine 09:00:42 pillars should stay, large walls between bubbles should go in my opinion 09:01:15 so often there's no wall-free way, but you never have to do a lot of digging to get through at all 09:01:16 by: or that. 09:01:22 yeah, the problem is slime is completely unconnected between bubbles and often down to the bottom. 09:01:31 If the point of slime is to really annoy people and force them to do the whole required items thing (digging, corrosion proof weapons etc. etc.) then it's fine as it is, but it's a bad idea 09:02:18 by: but I believe this problem is much smaller than folks here claim. If you want to go to Slime:6, you need to dig only a little. They want to _clear_ Slime for the xp, so they can justifiably spend more resources. 09:02:29 -!- Ekaterin has joined ##crawl-dev 09:02:32 -!- phyphor was kicked from ##crawl-dev by dpeg [phyphor] 09:02:55 Silly assumption kick. 09:03:54 -!- phyphor has joined ##crawl-dev 09:04:01 was there a reason for the kick? 09:04:06 of course 09:04:13 re-read your last statement 09:04:27 no content, only more aggravation 09:04:31 (it's helpful to put the reason in the kick message so people know how not to trnasgress further) 09:04:35 not really 09:04:39 yes, I forgot, sorry for that 09:05:38 You assume we create branches to annoy people. You state that the current installment is "fine" at that. And then you say that the current Slime is a "bad idea". All old information, only packaged more aggressively. 09:05:41 it was a simple "if, then" statement 09:05:45 I didnt' assume anything 09:06:13 I said "if" the point was to annoy people, then it does that job, but I think that doing something to annoy people is bad 09:06:26 dpeg: fyi, I think you are wrong that people are getting annoyed at slime only because they want to clear slime 09:06:30 I was going to do a third if, statement 09:06:42 I have never wanted to clear slime and it still annoys me 09:06:58 and I haven't heard anyone even contemplating clearing slime recently 09:07:32 Suppose Hells were free of hell effects and we'd add them for 0.8. We would get exactly the same comments. 09:08:03 personally I would be fine with current slime if only the walls didn't corrode your armour 09:08:16 elliptic: ^ 09:08:23 I proposed exactly that. 09:08:36 okay, I haven't been following all the discussion :) 09:08:41 dpeg: There was an initial "if" - what it boils down to is "what is the new Slime supposed to achieve" 09:08:56 And then "does the new Slime achieve its aims"? 09:09:02 i agree that would help a lot too, so yeah 09:09:11 I understood that the new Slime was supposed to be more difficult more thematic, but still "fun" 09:10:00 I think the goals of new slime were 1) make it so people didn't want to add it to 3 runes before doing zot 2) fix the bug with TRJ cheating 09:10:06 Goals of the slimy walls: (a) prevent RJ abuse, (b) change tactics, (c) flavour-ful branch effect. 09:10:35 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 09:10:38 does auto-explore go next to slimy walls? 09:10:41 no 09:10:42 Cryp71c: hi 09:10:44 why would the goal be 1) 09:10:46 dpeg, morning 09:10:59 then my quick personal impression: no problem at all with damaging walls 09:11:02 syllogism: that's what I've ascertained from this discussion 09:11:07 really 09:11:38 how much damage do the walls do again? as i understand it, it scales really nastily with depth 09:11:40 well pre-slime walls i would usually get slime as a 4th rune and dpeg said that was becuase it was too easy :P 09:11:41 casmith789: wasn#t really a goal, at least not mine 09:11:45 I think it's because there are two branches very near each other, both with runes 09:11:53 dpeg, been thinking about slaying damage and its propensity for players to wield lighter (faster) weapons...which is nice (otherwise, quickblades wouldn't be so awesome), but that also translates to slaying + heavy weapons being a laughable combination...perhaps, partial scaling for weapon speed? 09:11:57 so people are tempted to get them both if they're both "easy" 09:12:17 and since i never tried digging tunnels for TRJ my slime:6 is basically the same is ever, it's just getting there that is different now 09:12:27 MarvinPA: yeah, same 09:12:33 cryp71c: why make slaying more complicated? 09:12:37 Cryp71c: not sure... I don#t even know if the current slaying system is so good... 09:12:45 slaying + heavy weapons isn't laughable, also 09:12:46 elliptic, slaying isn't complicated? 09:12:57 anyway whatever, people have agreed that item corrosion is bad and (maybe) level generation should be looked at 09:13:11 elliptic, its better than no slaying, but the difference with a heavy weapon is much less significant than with a fast one. 09:13:17 Cryp71c: you can get to delay 3 with an executioner's axe of speed 09:13:18 slaying is great with heavy weapons 09:13:28 *delay 2 + haste 09:13:29 even 09:13:37 cryp71c: heavy weapons still get min delay 7 09:13:59 it's also likely better than a fast weapon + slaying 09:14:09 unless you luck into a quick blade or weapon of speed, you aren't getting below min delay 5 09:14:16 that isn't a huge difference 09:14:16 fast weapons only somewhat catch up with slaying 09:14:39 one other suggestion, if the issue is with TRJ ... maybe make the walls have a worse effect the deeper into slime you go (if they don't already)? 09:14:41 syllogism, only 3 or 4 slaying brings a quickblade up to killing 20AC monsters with fairly little trouble 09:14:48 they do, phyphor 09:14:49 but perhaps it doesn't need to scale, was only mentioning it. 09:14:56 if I get a lot of slaying, I don't think: oh, I should switch from axes to this quick blade 09:14:57 Cryp71c: sure 09:15:06 but other weapons will still deal more damage 09:15:12 syllogism, oh, yeah, ofc. 09:15:19 Speaking of slaying, one thing I never liked about slaying was that slaying plusses and weapon enchantment plusses are so different in effect. 09:15:31 anym: they aren't really that different 09:15:35 slaying is just better 09:15:50 can anyone show me a game where they were actually forced to dig? 09:15:50 by a factor of two or so at high skill iirc 09:16:08 by: I've had disconnected slime many, many times 09:16:10 elliptic, is it comparable to say that slaying adds to base damage, since the additions are made pre-scalaing for skill and all that? 09:16:13 usually I teleport instead though 09:16:25 by: my last 2 slime games 09:16:27 elliptic, I don't think I've had anything but disconnected slim in the last 3-4 games I've had which have gotten that far 09:16:27 I'm not sure I can pick out a specific game with it easily without watching a lot of TVs 09:16:54 i did slime last game, didn't think the slime walls were particularly bad at all 09:16:55 by, you can check out my game, I didn't have dig, but I had cBlink and was forced to take shafts down and find a different route out when I had the rune. 09:17:02 i think getting rid of corrosion would be fine 09:17:20 cryp71c: base damage is slightly better than slaying because it gets stat multipliers in addition to skill multipliers 09:17:25 ??weapon damage 09:17:25 weapon damage[1/3]: Approximately: 1d(base*strength_bonus + slaying)*skill_bonus + 1d(to_dam) + various bonuses. Weapon {brand} is applied after monster AC reduction. 09:17:58 gah! I got the raksasha / bogart vault...booo! 09:18:16 What about only having corrosion on the lowest level of Slime? or is that a compromise that helps nobody? 09:18:41 Cryp71c: last game? 09:18:53 !lm Cryp71c br.enter=slime -tv:>$ 09:18:53 14. Delphic, XL22 SpEn, T:76068 (milestone) requested for FooTV. 09:19:06 phyphor: no 09:19:22 much better to have it throughout the branch and increase in power 09:19:32 that would work too 09:19:38 it does increase in power 09:19:41 corrosion increase in power? 09:19:48 dpeg: I think he means only the corrosion effect on slime:6, the damage effect the whole time 09:19:49 by: the corrosion effect, not the damage 09:19:59 yes, the corrosion effect depends on the damage 09:20:07 casmith789: ah, I see 09:20:07 but I think it should be consistant 09:20:33 no corrosion from walls is really okay 09:20:33 or at least not put stairs next to walls on slime:6 :) 09:20:36 i mean, the main thing i noticed was that corrosion was noticeably worse when doing slime 09:20:46 casmith789: that's already done in master 09:20:53 doy: great 09:20:57 I did ask if it increased in power and was told it did 09:21:12 by, current game 09:21:51 I normally take shafts down and teleport up in slime nowadays 09:22:41 !lm Cryp71c br.enter=slime -tv:cancel 09:22:41 14. Delphic, XL22 SpEn, T:76068 (milestone) cancel requested for FooTV. 09:25:08 by: Keeping the pillars but losing (most of the) bubbles sounds great to me. 09:25:48 If anything reall needs to be done. :) It's just "bring a wand of digging or two" the times I've been there. 09:26:22 I'm also +1 losing the gear corrosion from walls, although once I go there I usually have non-corrodable gear anyway. 09:26:37 My bottom line is the new walls are awesome. 09:26:42 Keskitalo: yes. That's why I am happy to wait with layout changes until the dust has settled. 09:26:59 Keskitalo: also, nobody replied to the Hells comparison =) 09:27:19 I think that was a good comparison. 09:30:18 I wonder if I'll manage to reach Slime before it gets changed. :-P 09:30:31 re: bubbles - I haven't had a disconnected Slime I think, but if you don't have a way on this level, you have go up/down and try to find the staircases.. and this was the same with the old Slime, so don't know what has changed really 09:30:56 the wall damage isn't *that* bad, sure you have to squeeze into a corridor sometimes and arrive being compromised 09:31:02 and you have to bring enough food to rest 09:31:03 as far as I can tell, a way back to the dungeon is guaranteed 09:31:27 by: players use "bubble" in a more general sense here. 09:32:27 keskitalo: it is possible that there is no route to slime:6 09:32:43 even with escape hatches? 09:32:45 that's what people mean by disconnected, not that they have to backtrack 09:33:04 stair generation has not changed afair, so this should have been come up already in 0.6? 09:33:10 that wasn't countng escape hatches 09:33:13 dpeg: sure 09:33:14 there are known bugs with this in orc I think 09:33:20 oh it happened in 0.6 as well 09:33:22 yes 09:33:24 slime has been disconnected for a while 09:33:56 perhaps I should not be testing this with an XL 1 kenku 09:34:00 the code tries to guarantee a way back up from anywhere, and to place downward escape hatches in bubbles without stairs 09:34:14 that should be good enough 09:34:33 the escape hatches down are good but can leave you stranded 09:34:37 it's known to be broken if you fall through a shaft 09:35:05 if they leave you stranded, that's a bug 09:35:50 btw, it may be that in master the bubbles already tend to be more open because the seeds around stairs were enlarged 09:37:12 I believe there was an issue in orc in 0.5 at least which could leave you stranded (but can't rememebr if that was teleport, shaft or hatch) 09:44:49 -!- purge has joined ##crawl-dev 09:59:47 "Right now I think slime is the most annoying branch in the game, and for 09:59:52 that matter, the most annoying the game has ever had." (evilmike) 10:00:09 other players would second that without being in the Slime branch :O 10:00:29 I haven't seen new slime, but old swamp was pretty annoying too 10:01:21 there's a guy in ##crawl asking if you can change the background colour to something other than black in tiles - are there any tiles experts here that can help him? 10:01:30 no idea if you can 10:01:39 Did he read the tiles options? 10:01:55 Pretty sure you can't 10:05:30 03dolorous * ra21d487769b6 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/database/monspeak.txt: Fix Mantis 2243: "favorite" -> "favourite". 10:16:38 -!- Ekaterin has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:32:02 Keskitalo: still around? 10:32:18 dpeg: Just won my game! \o/ 10:32:22 yay! 10:32:50 Then you will be in a good mood to glance at the wiki page I am writing for one hour now (it is not even long). 10:33:01 Hehe, sure :) 10:35:54 https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:god:wrath 10:36:56 Keskitalo: you will note there are some holes... if you think this makes some sense, then (a) the old wrath page (in god_mechanics or so) should be removed and/or moved at the bottom of the one I just made and (b) the FR(s) about wrath would need a link to the new page. 10:40:00 dpeg: do you want grammar corrections / input from people who aren't Keskitalo? 10:43:33 03dolorous * rd5eba1a122fc 10/crawl-ref/source/main.cc: Fix a "you're too hungry" message inconsistency. 10:44:07 phyphor: sure 10:44:11 always 10:44:26 "whose got gifts)" -> "who've got gifts)" 10:44:40 please edit yourself, if you can 10:44:48 I'm not sure I can ... let me check 10:44:57 I am at a conference and just took this afternoon off to do the wrath 10:45:02 oh, wow 10:45:05 you are dedicated 10:45:10 commited 10:45:13 (well, there were no talks this afternoon =) 10:46:43 Those all look like good ideas to me. I'm not sure about Zin mutating people, though. It seems like an action that Zin might not want to take directly, even on people he doesn't like. 10:47:44 dpeg: Looks good! I agree with Danei about Zin, though I guess he could be that petty. :] 10:47:56 Danei? 10:48:02 is there already a comment? 10:48:03 Just ^ 10:48:09 Maybe he has me on ignore :P 10:48:40 Keskitalo: didn't see 10:48:54 http://pastebin.com/tj8W66jH 10:48:56 Here in IRC? Do you have Danei on ignore? :D 10:49:01 yes, maybe 10:49:30 forgotten why 10:49:48 ??dpeg wrath 10:49:48 I don't have a page labeled dpeg_wrath in my learndb. 10:50:20 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 10:50:23 Yes, I know (re Z mutating). It's not so easy to come up with good Z wrath. 10:50:31 dpeg: Anyway, it's about mutating being something that Zin wouldn't do, and I thought so too when reading it, although on the other hand Z should be petty. 10:51:07 Zin really, really shouldn't even consider mutating people 10:51:08 He could do cosmetic mutations (he is quite obsessed with being pure) 10:51:18 he could make you hungry, or recite to you maybe 10:51:19 Should god gift items state which god gifted? 10:51:21 it's 100% against one of hismain tenets 10:51:26 (hrm, maybe I should FR that) 10:51:38 phyphor: would be necessary for this. 10:51:43 yes 10:52:07 I'm also wondering about having a severity worsened if you keep a cool god gift of a god that hates you 10:52:20 zin could make you a pure natural human/elf/whatever by making all your armour fall off in the middle of a fight 10:52:41 Maybe Zin could remove good mutations. That's probably not severe enough, though 10:52:44 have I got some god wraths wrong now? or have they already been changed for 0.8 trunk? 10:53:01 i.e. you can't ever reduce severity below (some number calculated by the total value of the god gifts on the player) 10:53:08 Beogh: negative bonus from orcish gear can be trivially avoided, by the time you consider abandoning Beogh, you are sure to have some gear of similar quality 10:53:12 ie tso blessed blade I didn't think was affected if you left him 10:53:13 removing good muts seems like a jiyva thing 10:53:29 oh jiyva's not on there yet 10:53:52 Maybe Zin could smite you with damage that gets higher for every mutation you have. 10:53:56 kilobyte: this is flavour 10:54:13 Not a criticism, just an observation; a lot of these god wraths seem worse than now. 10:54:13 kilobyte: Beogh does not want the heretic to use racial gear. 10:54:26 casmith789: they are supposed to scale with severity. 10:54:31 Whereas now they don't. 10:54:38 less god wraths should abyss you :P 10:54:45 03dolorous * r6a25c9307c75 10/crawl-ref/source/abl-show.cc: Fix Mantis 2205. 10:54:49 TSO cursing stuff also doesn't fit him well 10:54:49 but making them nastier at high severity is cool 10:54:55 MarvinPA: except Lugonu 10:55:00 of course :) 10:55:09 kilobyte: this is only for Blessed Blade ==> cursed blade 10:55:11 makes sense to me 10:55:21 he blessed it for you, and he will curse it 10:55:27 what does that do? 10:55:32 just make it normal again? 10:55:32 would it lose the stats/brand then? 10:55:49 yes, just turn it into a plain, cursed weapon of the type it was before 10:55:57 Maybe zin could smite for damage based on how many mutations you have and that smite has a chance to remove a good mutation (burn away your perverse gifts) 10:55:57 e.g. a cursed triple sword 10:56:13 This is again just flavour. 10:56:14 seems quite contradictory if the base type was demon foo 10:56:14 no more going TSO for the blessed blade then abandoning immediately for me :( 10:56:27 MarvinPA: scummer! :P 10:56:36 heh 10:57:04 as long as you can't also scum good weapons off the angels he sends at you 10:57:13 Rather than cursing it, it could count as a god gift for the inability to reduce secerity 10:57:32 Haha, or Zin could sometimes make intelligent monsters use recite, causing (bad) recite effects on you. 10:57:41 so the character would continue to be beset upon by unique-style warriors and have their enemies warned 10:58:00 phyphor: I explicitly don't want to track gifts for wrath purposes, as that's a fairly complicated matter 10:58:29 dpeg: well, if gifts are noted as coming from a specific god instead of just "a god" then you can calculate based on worth of carried gear of that god? 10:58:33 or is that too complicated? 10:58:40 Danei: that would mean monsters are stupid enough to worship Zin, which is currently not the case (except for one altar angel) 10:58:53 True 10:59:19 I hope the goals are clear: We don't want players to be able to wait it out anymore. A player who angers Trog by forgetting to chop corpses (i.e. dropping out very early) should get a much milder wrath than someone who abandons Trog after Lair, say. 10:59:35 phyphor: it is not clear whether that is a good measure... 10:59:44 for good gods, remember we have all that holyhaul stuff with 93735934798 new monsters 10:59:53 phyphor: whereas I am sure that maximal piety reached is a very sensible measure, for example. 11:00:00 kilobyte: true! 11:00:09 i don't tend to bother waiting out wrath but yeah, it's kinda lame that it's a reasonable way of doing things 11:00:11 I forgot that. So we can make good use of them. 11:00:49 MarvinPA: so currently, switching gods early on cannot be recommended, but later on it's trivial if you know what you're doing and are prepared to brave the tedium,. 11:01:06 Trog, Jiyva, ... 11:01:10 Someone could add the new holy monsters (to Zin and TSO, I guess.( 11:01:16 well, later on i often switch gods and the wrath tends to be ignorable 11:01:32 because you're easily strong enough to deal with an occasional abyssing or 1 11:01:33 MarvinPA: yes, I also want in the other direction, that the wrath hurts more later on. 11:01:40 yeah 11:01:57 kilobyte: ? 11:02:39 dpeg: Jiyva's wrath can't be really averted except for sitting in lich form all the time, or waiting it out and then going Zin 11:02:54 03by * r93e49fbaf0ef 10/crawl-ref/source/dungeon.cc: Fix vetoed levels messing up previous level's connectivity data. 11:03:05 kilobyte: ah, so that's a newer wrath it seems :) 11:03:14 by: oh, very nice. 11:03:17 and 40 bad mutations are quite certain to include fastmeta 11:03:40 by: so that was the cause of disconnected Orc bubbles, right? 11:03:43 I hope this fixes the orc bubbles 11:04:16 the connectivity code is kind of hard to follow, but this would explain the problems 11:04:39 it'd be nice to have a connectivity test 11:05:21 dpeg: I agree maximal piety is a good measure, but if you have a minimum wrath level then I posit that increasing the minimum based on retaining gifts from a God is thematically workable 11:05:44 and it means wrath cant' be waited out if you want ot carry on using a lot of goodies youv'e been given 11:05:54 phyphor: no, the idea is that you actually mollify gods (I know this is against the idea of eternal wrath, but I think will work better) 11:05:59 (and, also, will be tempted to stay with a god for giving you nice gifts, which is a good thing) 11:06:32 hm, reaching max piety happens pretty quickly for most gods i guess 11:06:34 phyphor: we are free to make Okawaru's or Trog's weapons dance anytime, if we want 11:06:43 phyphor: in the case of eg vehumet you don't need to carry the god gifts 11:07:22 dancing platemail :p 11:07:27 casmith789: good point, well made 11:07:45 oh also if severity is based on the piety you reach, i'm totally going kiku every game, then abandoning after 1* :P 11:07:50 MarvinPA: :D 11:07:51 free book of necromancy! 11:07:52 similarly with Nemelex, you probably got most use out of the gifts already 11:08:03 dpeg: and not holding on to something a god gave you should help mollify, and not giving it up should keep them angry with you is my idea 11:08:06 MarvinPA: it's not free 11:08:10 but, fair enough 11:08:33 phyphor: I agree and I had something on this on my first sheet of paper about wrath, but I think it is just too complicated 11:08:45 I shall defer to the authorities on this one 11:09:33 I just think that it feels wrong to, for example, be walking round in a full kit of god gifted gear and the God not minding that you don't worship it any more 11:10:03 But as most of the gods dont' give tangible gifts I can see why it'd be hard to measure 11:10:44 phyphor: I think the main problem is that god give gifts 11:11:01 This always leads to strange effects... 11:11:20 I think at least nemelex has to 11:11:59 N is built on gifts... but with O and S: what do you do when you got all the good things? 11:12:16 okawaru and...? 11:12:20 sif 11:12:24 ah 11:12:46 oka -> might, sif -> channel, but you can ofc switch for better passive effects atm 11:12:55 yes 11:13:38 maybe Oka shouldn't give might but should give something that can be activated to give might?, but then that doesnt' help with Nemelex and others 11:13:53 oh no, he shouldn't do thta 11:13:54 that 11:13:57 Okawaru will see changes at some point anyway 11:13:57 that would be so OP 11:14:14 well, still with a MP cost 11:14:23 hrm 11:14:25 no, that'd be worse 11:14:28 might is not a spell, you notice :) 11:14:32 yeah 11:17:09 we could fix oka by making haste not a spell 11:17:27 dpeg: what do you think of moving haste to level 7 or 8? 11:17:39 haste as a spell is indeed problematic 11:17:42 might just axe it 11:17:54 by: it is already available from many sources, so I'd rather nerf it 11:17:54 can inrease level before that, sure 11:18:04 kilobyte: but the other sources are finite 11:19:39 I'd say: removing haste from Oka is long overdue (especially that you currently need to scum Invo to use it), but as a spell, it should stay even if it indeed could use a nerf 11:20:06 oka's haste is a lot more limited than hast from spell 11:20:15 it feels as though you're just expected to be able to haste in the endgame 11:20:16 true 11:20:24 st_: this is a problem on its own 11:20:24 once you scum invo, not that much 11:20:31 st_: yeah 11:20:49 kilobyte: how does scummed invo unlimit it? 11:20:51 greensnark mentions that from time to time: it seems the endgame is designed for hasted players vs hasted monsters 11:20:59 the piety cost is quite steep 11:21:21 at that point, you have 200 piety you won't need anymore 11:21:33 I generally don't have 200 piety with okawary 11:21:36 okawaru 11:21:40 god gifts + might reduce it 11:21:42 I regularly run out of okawaru piety in zot 11:22:41 kilobyte: the problem are the gifts, I think 11:22:54 liberally wasting piety when not in a real need means you won't be able to use it when you really would want it, but that's no different from Makhleb or TSO 11:23:17 make 'ask for a gift' an invokable ability? :P 11:23:34 why? Gifts are merely a loot multiplier, and even that, focused into two item types, unlike, say, barbarians from Diablo 2 11:23:55 kilobyte: all I'm saying is it's more limited, and if having it means not using might, that's already a lot more limiting than any limit the haste spell has 11:23:58 Oka has two problems: rewarding quantity not quality (Orc, Hive), and the abilities 11:24:52 kilobyte: I believe there are more problems, but these two are issues, yes 11:25:00 the former can be quite easily fixed: by tying the chance of receiving a gift to the kill's difficulty 11:25:24 the latter is more tricky to fix, but replacements are decent 11:26:06 all of the total overhaul proposals we have on the wiki, though, are abysmal -- kind of like Cheibriados or the current incarnation of slime walls 11:26:24 what about an increase in str at high tension 11:26:28 I hate every of those proposals with passion 11:26:37 casmith789: sounds good! 11:26:50 or slaying, even 11:26:57 even better 11:27:00 then you won't be able to evoke it when you want of course 11:27:06 yeah 11:27:30 I like my proposal 11:27:38 ortoslon: if "ask for gift" is invokable then people would want a higher piety cost one that gave a more defined gift 11:27:52 The idea that gifts don't just slap onto the ground, but that you have to work for them sounds pretty good to me. 11:27:55 (so youc ould ask Trog for an axe and not a blowgun, for example) 11:28:08 phyphor: wrong direction :) 11:28:26 dpeg: where can I see your proposal? 11:28:29 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:28:39 dpeg: ah, that particular part is a good one, but only when taken away from those overhauls 11:28:48 dpeg: they'de want a lower piety "give me somethign I don't care what" one? 11:28:52 https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:god:okawaru#dpegvolatile_piety 11:29:07 phyphor: there will be no invocable "give me gifts", that was sarcasm :) 11:29:18 phyphor: the idea of spamming gifts so you get something useful in the long run is bad, imo 11:29:25 sarcasm comes across really well in text :P 11:29:47 kilobyte: and my idea of increasing the best stat under tension is very similar to casmith789's just ^ 11:30:45 in that proposal, most of the entries are like adom's "more exp while slowed" 11:31:26 I only like snippets of the other proposals =) 11:32:42 The idea of sending guys with good gear (instead of dropping it on the floor) is easier to do than mine, but with my one you would consider donning that cool temporary helm of Oki and do a branch end, hoping to make it permanent 11:33:09 Keskitalo: thanks to your win, #4 is in sight :O 11:33:18 yup :) 11:33:31 (well, also thanks to all the other wins, but that win was perhaps ... a bit ... unexpected :) 11:33:33 Rob had a two-win strak too 11:33:36 yes 11:33:50 Yeah, I'm probably not going to play as much for the rest of the tourney 11:34:00 Keskitalo: please reply in some way to the wraths thing -- wrath is messed up quite a bit, it's a very good 0.8 target. 11:34:07 Keskitalo: sure 11:34:08 or perhaps we could equip existing monsters with the gifts -- the bigger monster, the larger chance 11:34:15 dpeg: interesting proposal 11:34:22 I hope to win another guy and then perhaps a Sprinter or two. 11:34:25 ie, Cerebov's would be nearly guaranteed to get something 11:34:33 casmith789: thanks, Comments welcome, as ever. 11:34:58 kilobyte: yes. I still think that all uniques should get slightly better gear (even if it just a plus). 11:35:05 dpeg: Well, I have little to offer than it looks great - the goals are excellent, the means look sensible. 11:35:15 dpeg: Awesome. I'm definitely not playing Sprint, that's for sure. :) 11:35:16 Keskitalo: hm. Okay. 11:35:30 Keskitalo: But it's quick. And easy! And so quick!! 11:36:00 Already 50 more tournament players than in all of last year. 11:36:12 better gear on uniques could be cool. I don't get why Yiuf gets a kick-ass cloak like half of the time, but that's a good thing. 11:36:19 yes 11:39:43 dpeg: do you remember that idea for spriggan assassins where they stalk you until you get low on health? I analyzed it, and it has two flaws: 11:39:52 yes, I remember 11:40:16 1. it's beneficial to hit yourself early just to make sure you have no entourage that could knock you out in a subsequent fight 11:41:21 and 2. to make sure you don't lose xp and loot, to artificially drop low before leaving the level so they appear 11:41:32 kilobyte: true. But we could use Sp monsters to come up with one of those "intelligent centaurs": they'd always (try to) keep distance, and shoot at you. If wounded, they run away. 11:42:25 those could be riders, archers or even riding archers :p 11:42:32 This would more be a "Spriggan harasser (sp?)" but still 11:42:36 indeed 11:42:38 <3 11:43:22 I don't see stealth ones doing such harassing well -- once they drop stealth, they'd need to retreat. And we have been there with submerging, it's not a good thing. 11:43:53 For stabbing, I'd recommend something else: it is a monster (could be a Sp) which you can see well enough (even though it could be invisible if we want, but no special mechanics) and which only does one single melee attacks -- which hurts a lot. After that, it'll retreat (and come back later). 11:44:24 might fit somewhere else (than Sp) better, for flavour reasons 11:44:41 but the idea is that this monster has a might one-time attack you'd be trying to avoid 11:44:43 that'd be quite hard to explain, why one time they can stab you and another they can't 11:44:54 yes, I know 11:45:08 that's why soething else might work better (e.g. a DD monster with some charged tool) 11:45:12 a bee-like monster or something other that has to "reload" could do that idea better 11:45:16 yes 11:45:27 yeah, a DD artificer could be cool 11:45:31 But such a monster could get the idea of stabbing across... 11:45:45 kilobyte: DD monsters will come... right after all the other cool branches :) 11:46:27 dpeg: after this topic, I'd like to talk to you about deciding on the place for Forest 11:46:35 (btw, my Oki also has this idea of improving bad gear, even if randart -- that is quite interesting imo) 11:46:40 kilobyte: sure! 11:46:44 Today? 11:46:55 but for now, let's discuss assassins first 11:46:58 (I am not sure when they'll close this computer lab...) 11:47:15 visible stabs are not a good idea IMO 11:47:36 we don't really need to wait for branches to get new monsters... we really could use an overhaul of the existing monster lists 11:47:50 yes, the whole stealth & stab thing is very unsymmetric between players and monsters 11:48:03 this leaves two proposals for now: player-like stealth with big stabs, or time-independent stalking and revealing on some trigger 11:48:23 kilobyte: very hard to do player like stealth 11:48:28 doy: that is true 11:48:38 just like kilobyte went ahead with the spriggan monsters 11:49:04 I guess there's no reason why there couldn't be an orc artificer etc. 11:49:23 dpeg: why? Every round the monster has to roll against your awareness, they approach you normally, the only fudging is moving through your pets. 11:49:30 kilobyte: in some sense, the UH is Crawl's stabbing monster atm 11:49:44 orc, elf, spriggan, DD, draconian, ... 11:49:50 kilobyte: yes 11:50:08 was indicating that "artificer" could be just a new template 11:50:12 kilobyte: okay, I see 11:50:39 The thing I don't understand then is the bit about waiting. Why not simply approach the player, attack him and reveal the monster? 11:50:44 wand-relying monsters? 11:50:56 ortoslon: and misc items. But that later. 11:51:40 dpeg: waiting is the alternate idea MarvinPA suggested... it seemed to be much better than mine until I analyzed it deeper 11:52:27 kilobyte: we agree that spriggan (rider) doing mean, intelligent attacks is good as-is? 11:53:01 kilobyte: I think that the monsters will be better off if the stabber approaches the player asap -- just like the players does with a sleeping monster 11:53:08 doy: the main problem is that deep D, Vaults and the Vestibule all use the same set, which is boring and fails to sets them apart 11:53:34 kilobyte: there are ideas for changing the V part of that 11:53:51 dpeg: ok, as in the original idea. I'll try that first, then. 11:53:53 kilobyte: yes 11:54:12 but also, are we even adding to those lists at all? 11:54:22 So we get Spriggan Assassins and Spriggan Snipers? <3 11:54:29 i mean, we've added quite a few monsters over the past bunch of releases 11:54:35 Right. Let's talk about Forest then. 11:54:37 but they've all been branch-specific 11:54:48 which is a different kind of problem 11:54:49 doy: they don't spawn anywhere but a couple of vaults 11:55:18 doy: why would that be a problem? Branches standing out more is a good thing, in general. 11:55:38 kilobyte: I think we should only add a branch if it either replaces something (a la Shoals) or if we make a compensation cut somewhere else... 11:55:55 kilobyte: having almost entirely unique monster sets (shoals, for instance) isn't that great though 11:56:05 or at least, it sticks out 11:56:09 doy: SWamp is and was pretty similar 11:56:13 for instance, deep elves can show up in the main dungeon 11:56:19 as can most lair monsters 11:56:19 I am worried a bit, but not too much, about that 11:56:52 I think they'll close this lab at 6 pm (a few minutes) 11:56:57 i think vault and vestibule need completely redone monster sets 11:57:07 Forest could be: 1. a small (2..3 levels) branch without a rune around D:23, 2. we cut V to 5 levels, and have Forest replace it 50% of time, 3. infinite, wildly mutating, replacing the Abyss 11:57:08 Forest! 11:57:13 but main dungeon should get a sampling of monsters from basically all branches 11:57:21 doy: especially the Vestibule! 11:57:26 kilobyte: yes, definitely 11:57:28 doy: agree about the sampling, yeah 11:57:31 kilobyte: could you imainge the Forest linking two branches? 11:57:38 e.g. Lair and Vautls? 11:57:38 dpeg: sure, why not 11:58:04 I'd prefer it to be harder than the usual Lair branches, though 11:58:21 btw, I won't be around until Aug 23 again or so 11:58:26 mail always works 11:58:31 kilobyte: yes, that is fine 11:58:37 could start in Lair:7 or 8 11:58:44 woudl fit thematically 11:59:08 just a thought (the cycle in the dungeon graph) 11:59:47 sure, the problem is, I don't like going just one stairs down radically making the difficulty >10xl levels harder -- like Orc vs Elf, Lair vs Slime 12:01:15 kilobyte: the L end of Forest could be easier, the V end harder 12:01:16 and we could make the dungeon graph a non-tree just right on, without needing a new branch or anything 12:01:21 sure 12:01:40 but note that L>8 is not as easy as it used to be anyway 12:01:46 L:8 12:02:15 the bears are easier than old death yak packs, for example 12:02:30 there are still death yaks? 12:02:38 yes? 12:02:43 ah, the new end levels 12:03:30 but death yaks and dire elephants are no punchovers 12:04:04 you meet the dire elephants one by one, while death yaks used to approach you in packs 12:04:19 I still hit death yaks in lair 8 12:04:22 kilobyte: you still get death yak packs 12:04:25 and before 12:04:34 elliptic: just not as often as before 12:04:47 kilobyte: what makes you say that? 12:04:56 elliptic: the new branch end vaults for Lair 12:05:14 but death yak packs can start appearing near the beginning of lair 12:05:19 and you often get one on lair:8 anyway 12:05:54 I certainly don't get the impression that there are signficantly fewer now than there used to be 12:06:04 they can spawn as OODs, but I don't think they can be generated as packs above L:6 12:06:11 kilobyte: wrong 12:06:17 I'm pretty sure I got packs on Lair:4 before 12:06:19 I've gotten packs on lair:2 12:06:29 kilobyte: is this with the new Lair sets (after cutting?) 12:06:33 you need a deep lair entrance for that, but it happens 12:07:01 ah, this is one of the things I have a minor gripe with: a deep entry (to any branch) punishes you twice 12:07:24 dpeg: eh, I think it is good variety 12:07:34 yes, this is what I usually get as reply :) 12:07:36 sometimes lair or vaults is much harder overall than other times 12:07:41 seems fine to me :) 12:07:48 okay, back to Forest 12:07:54 you do get significantly more exp, so it's often a good thing 12:08:04 kilobyte: good point 12:08:16 kilobyte: I don't think I like the infinite approach 12:08:34 We still need to put work into the two infinite branches we already have, that is why. 12:08:43 right 12:08:51 I didn't know lair was harder if it was lower :S 12:09:09 casmith789: taht is the evil truth :) 12:09:26 I've been avoiding it if it appears early to get some levels :P 12:09:28 I really like that proposal to make Pan have a limited number of persistent levels, but we'd need to fix Zigs first 12:09:40 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:10:33 kilobyte: Erik told me never to mess with the infinity aspect of Pan. 12:10:44 heh, right 12:10:54 So I always wanted to make difficulty in Pan ramp up with levels... but I have a knack for this mechanic. 12:11:18 -!- Fangorn_ has quit [Quit: Fangorn_] 12:14:08 kilobyte: Vaults is slated for some reduction anyway, we could use those levels to add Forest somewhere. 12:14:30 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 12:14:38 Alternatively, what about making Slime and Forest compete? They both fit the Lair flavour, and both have loot, and the threats would be very different. 12:14:40 with Abyss replacement off the table, we have three options: 1. short no-rune D:23, 2. a long replacement for shortened V, 3. your idea of a L:8-V link 12:15:04 kind of, yeah... the difficulty could be comparable 12:15:08 now there is also 4. replacement for Slime, with rune 12:15:22 six levels of wooden madness :) 12:15:44 actually, all proposed settings for the Forest would be old Slime, waaay below the difficulty of the new Slime 12:15:55 ... 12:16:09 below = easier or harder? 12:16:11 by: ? 12:16:15 easier 12:16:48 and awakened trees are kind of redundant vs slimy walls :p 12:17:05 The good thing about a branch-by-branch replacement (e.g. Forest <--> Slime) is that we have to worry a lot less about global balance. 12:17:16 kilobyte: it should be different, I think 12:17:51 it currently doesn't vary damage by the number of adjacent trees 12:17:56 kilobyte: of course, if it becomes a Lair subbranch, you have to find a word starting with S to put in front of the "Forest" :) 12:18:06 -!- Anym has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.8/20100722155716]] 12:18:08 which is probably surprising 12:18:20 Sylvan Somethingorother. 12:18:22 heh, Shady Grove? 12:18:36 kilobyte: I really like the idea of plants growing in the Lair, hampering your progress (even if they are just of fungus level) 12:18:53 Silent Forest or something, folks >( 12:18:56 dpeg: "new slime is waaay more difficult than old slime" 12:19:09 erm, :) stupid keyboard layout 12:19:11 -!- ortoslon has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:19:14 by: hehe :) 12:19:27 by: and the most annoying branch Crawl ever had 12:19:36 by: you can't do new slime with a xl12 DESu :) 12:20:07 casmith789: I don't see how that's necessarily a problem 12:20:13 it isn't 12:20:16 also, I should really get up and leave 12:20:22 or an xl 11 anything of makhleb 12:20:24 casmith789: you can, if you kiss your further loot goodbye... there's an altar by the entrance 12:20:34 kilobyte: not guaranteed 12:20:37 kilobyte: not the two times I've dived successfully :( 12:20:50 only 30% chance or so iirc 12:20:54 well, I suppose, not successfully :/ 12:21:47 I like Forest replacing Slime or Vaults.. no added levels to the game, more branch variety 12:21:56 wasn't it 50%? Lemme look it up -- but I obviously meant, if you get it. 12:22:08 What of replacing Elf? 12:22:33 having more but shorter branches is an option too 12:22:35 elf should be replaced with dwarf sometimes 12:22:36 Keskitalo: that too, but I believe that thematically the Forest fits Lair best. But heck, anything is possible in this dungeon 12:22:42 what happened to spider? 12:22:44 elliptic: true 12:22:55 Keskitalo: I'd like Dwarf more, but yeah, not a bad idea 12:23:01 casmith789: will come, takes more time. We needed three versions (I think) to get Shoals out of the door. 12:23:08 casmith789: good question, it sure looks interesting 12:23:11 A new branch is a major beast, more than a god. 12:23:27 I mean, is it adding to the swamp/shoals/snake situation? 12:23:35 or somewhere else? 12:23:47 casmith789: Yeah, but for one thing no capable coder has started championing it, there's only me. :) 12:23:47 Hm, given that Dwarf is the natural competitor of Elf, it seems that Forest should be used somewhere else (for maximal variance). 12:23:50 it starts with S so it belongs in lair 12:24:02 (spider) 12:24:23 Keskitalo: hehe :) sorry, I'm no help :( 12:24:30 Keskitalo: when I mustered up some energy and wrote that first Shoals level generator, that triggered a lot (and it was a strategic mistake by me back then). 12:25:00 hehe :) 12:25:49 I did the monsters. I'm interested in doing the web traps, wall-clinging and layouts, but it takes a lot of learning for me. 12:25:54 Keskitalo: leaving it as a portal vault, designing up general layout rules you'd like to have would do... 12:30:31 -!- Chapayev has joined ##crawl-dev 12:31:16 you.branch() checks the player's branch, you.absdepth() checks absolute depth--what lua function can i use to check the player's depth within the current branch? 12:33:46 Chapayev: sorry, cannot answer from here 12:33:51 see you in two weeks, folks 12:33:57 dpeg: See you! 12:34:03 -!- dpeg_ has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:34:04 dpeg: bye! 12:34:24 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:38:36 Chapayev: you.subdepth() 12:38:43 greensnark: nice, thank you! 12:39:13 greensnark: i can't believe you.subdepth() isn't used anywhere in any .des files already 12:50:09 -!- Pseudonut has joined ##crawl-dev 12:58:36 by: Congrats on breaking into the top 3 :) 12:59:31 thanks, though I wasn't aiming for that -- finally wanted to streak 12:59:38 and broke it again right away :( 13:04:45 doesn't seem like anyone else is contending for top clan 13:05:59 huh, are there any known issues with glibc 2.10.1 and crawl? 13:06:55 that version of glibc is masked in gentoo, but i'm running it anyway, and i got an error on exiting a modified version of crawl 13:06:58 *** glibc detected *** ./crawl: double free or corruption (!prev): 0x0000000001904da0 *** 13:07:09 not sure if it's what i did to this version of crawl, or a glibc thing 13:11:59 -!- Pseudonut has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:19:06 My crawl crashed on save today with a double free. I wonder what version I have in this here debian-testing. 13:19:20 Older crawl-ref though. 13:21:04 Chapayev: You do seem to keep running into weird bugs :P 13:21:14 Chapayev: You must be in a cosmic ray hotspot or something 13:21:28 greensnark: yeah that thing i had in debian a while ago, that was really bizarre 13:22:04 greensnark: anyway i am going to put a fresh install of gentoo on this computer with a more stable version of glibc, in a couple days, that should tell me whether the problem is glibc 13:23:09 i bike a few miles most days with my laptop in a bag on my back, sometimes i think my computer has shaken baby syndrome 13:30:17 you'd probably benefit from ssd! 13:32:17 what's ssd? 13:38:06 Solid state drive 13:38:29 -!- Pseudonut has joined ##crawl-dev 13:38:30 Removes moving parts from your hard drive, making them (mostly) drop proof and easier (wear-and-tear wise) in laptops. 13:38:36 THey're also faster. 13:38:43 oh, that sounds excellent 13:38:51 what are their disadvantages? 13:39:35 They have a read/write limit (somewhere in the neighborhood of 1mil read/writes) before the bit-switches which make the entire thing possible stop responding normally to switch-signals. 13:40:13 But, unless you're going to setup a computer and do hard drive tests all day, writing random data to every sector of your drive, it'll still last several years. 13:40:20 sounds pretty nice 13:40:52 i've been doing a lot of distro tourism, which i guess is hard on a hard drive, but i'm nearly done with that :P 13:40:54 Yeah, they've been around long enough now that they're fairly cheap. They're smaller (and are often bigger capacity) than other HDDs. 13:41:05 Chapayev, what're you using now? 13:41:26 a version of sabayon that i've bludgeoned into being as much like gentoo as it can reasonably be 13:41:43 i'm going to wipe it in a few days and repalce it with just gentoo 13:42:48 eh, I used to use gentoo a lot, it was nice, but I've found I can have comparable slim-ness by installing Ubuntu and then just stripping out most of the bloatware packages it ships with. 13:42:54 Plus I'm a fan of debian distros :) 13:43:17 ubuntu and debian are both great, yeah 13:43:17 You see packages for them so much more often than everything else, and I hate having to compile everything by hand. 13:43:38 oh if you don't like compiling source code then obviously gentoo's not a good choice 13:43:46 Was using slackware before this, and having slackpackages always come up for the wrong kernel or something got on my last nerve. 13:44:01 does slackware have any kind of package manger? 13:44:04 manager 13:44:08 Well, I don't mind compiling, but if I want VLC, for example, I don't want to wait around to get a tarball, unpackage it, check the makefil, build it, etc. etc. 13:44:21 slackpkg 13:44:28 just a package installer, not really a manager 13:44:40 well you don't have to do all those steps individually, if you don't want to--emerge will handle them 13:44:47 but yeah you still have to wait for it to do everything 13:45:00 Yeah emerge is comparable to apt-get, yeah? 13:45:29 yeah, but it's got a lot of options that apt-get doesn't have, USE flags and compiler optimizations, etc. 13:45:42 of course apt-get is much much faster since it just installs a binary and doesn't have to compile anything 13:48:02 anyway slackware sounds interesting to me, i've got a pretty minimal set of things i ever wind up installing on a laptop for my personal use, so i'm curious to try slackware 13:48:09 but yeah it doesn't really get any easier than ubuntu 13:49:19 I like noobuntu because mostly "it just works" and when it doesn't I can fix it easily 13:51:20 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 13:54:38 Chapayev, the nice thing about slackware, is that ##slackware has - arguably - some of the smartest (and most numerous) linux experts around, albiet a bit snobby and short of patience. 13:54:38 Though getting some firmware to work on it is a pain. 13:56:16 -!- Chapayev has quit [Write error: Broken pipe] 13:56:35 -!- Chapayev has joined ##crawl-dev 13:56:58 i'm a big fan of arch 13:58:01 i haven't tried arch, it has a great reputation though 13:58:14 I had to (help) support a massive range of machines (various Win server OSes, Apple Server, Red hat, various BSDs and so on) 13:58:25 I wanted an easy life at home :) 13:58:35 very similar to gentoo, except without all the compiling (and with much less stupid politics) 13:58:43 I know most linux-y people htink Ubuntu is bit nubbish, but c'est la vie 13:58:57 I've heard good things about Arch, and Suse as it happens 13:59:13 nah, ubuntu is totally worth using, i don't think it's something people should look down their noses at 13:59:32 doy: oh i didn't realize gentoo had politics :P 14:00:13 it certainly did when i was using it, it might have calmed down sincethen 14:00:19 that was like 3 or 4 years ago 14:01:27 doy: what were the politics about 14:28:55 in the old days, it was kinda cool compiling xorg for 12hours 14:28:59 but it gets old very fast 14:29:18 for our very own superduper gcc optimization flags 14:40:07 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:47:44 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 15:11:37 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:37:09 -!- Chapayev has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:40:48 -!- niglatz has joined ##crawl-dev 15:46:08 -!- niglatz has left ##crawl-dev 16:11:26 -!- Twinge has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:11:54 -!- Twinge has joined ##crawl-dev 16:18:40 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 16:37:06 -!- rax has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:37:09 -!- rax has joined ##crawl-dev 16:38:28 -!- Danei has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:43:07 -!- elliptic has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.8/20100722155716]] 16:43:23 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 16:44:21 -!- Danei has joined ##crawl-dev 16:50:34 -!- CIA-42 has quit [*.net *.split] 16:58:14 -!- elliptic_ has joined ##crawl-dev 17:00:45 -!- elliptic has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:00:50 -!- elliptic_ is now known as elliptic 17:02:27 -!- Moriasc has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:03:01 -!- Moriasc has joined ##crawl-dev 17:05:53 -!- Moriasc_ has joined ##crawl-dev 17:05:56 -!- CIA-42 has joined ##crawl-dev 17:07:03 -!- CIA-42 has quit [*.net *.split] 17:07:26 -!- Moriasc has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:07:40 -!- Moriasc has joined ##crawl-dev 17:09:24 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:10:30 -!- Moriasc_ has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:11:40 -!- CIA-42 has joined ##crawl-dev 17:12:02 -!- Moriasc has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:23:25 -!- Moriasc has joined ##crawl-dev 17:25:05 -!- Moriasc_ has joined ##crawl-dev 17:28:08 -!- Moriasc has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:28:16 -!- Moriasc has joined ##crawl-dev 17:30:13 -!- Moriasc__ has joined ##crawl-dev 17:30:49 -!- Moriasc_ has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:32:44 -!- Moriasc has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:33:35 -!- Moriasc has joined ##crawl-dev 17:33:38 -!- Moriasc has quit [Client Quit] 17:36:11 -!- Moriasc__ has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:59:45 -!- Pseudonut has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:00:58 -!- pointless_ has joined ##crawl-dev 18:10:49 -!- June3 has joined ##crawl-dev 18:28:26 -!- elliptic_ has joined ##crawl-dev 18:31:10 -!- elliptic has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:31:21 -!- elliptic_ is now known as elliptic 18:33:22 -!- eith has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:08:16 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 19:08:30 can anyone help me with compiling? 19:08:31 -!- casmith789 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:10:10 valrus: what's the problem? 19:10:19 and what is your platform? 19:10:27 I'm on osx 19:10:41 and I get a brace of errors starting with: 19:10:43 lapi.c:8:20: error: no include path in which to search for assert.h 19:10:58 I'm sure this is really basic 19:14:20 also the same error with a bunch of other very fundamental .h file 19:14:20 s 19:14:39 it's a problem building lua, but I can't really help you with osx (unlike about any other platform) 19:15:10 but, could you try installing system lua so the contrib one is not needed? 19:15:27 I'll try 19:15:30 if osx ships lua at all, that is 19:15:41 I just installed it with a package manager 19:15:47 but I'm not sure how to get the crawl build to use it 19:16:19 not sure if that lua package includes the headers 19:16:31 which headers? 19:16:32 if not, you'd need one with -dev in name 19:16:44 oh... lua's headers? 19:17:14 like, /usr/include/lua5.1/lua.h 19:18:24 I have /usr/local/include/lua.h 19:19:12 and I think all the other headers from the lua install in the same place 19:19:35 sounds good 19:19:51 crawl build gives the same errors though 19:20:02 -!- umrain has joined ##crawl-dev 19:20:06 -!- umrain has left ##crawl-dev 19:20:27 -!- JamezQ has joined ##crawl-dev 19:20:56 oh, our makefile is retarded, you need to append LUA_INCLUDE_DIR=/usr/local/include/ 19:22:17 can I just change the line where it's set already? 19:22:39 nm 19:23:32 haha same thing with sqlite now :P 19:23:37 ok let's see if I can make this work 19:24:48 -!- Mu_ has quit [Quit: Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place.] 19:40:28 ok now I'm getting similar errors in abl-show.cc 19:40:39 which I think is not an optional install 19:41:05 In file included from AppHdr.h:181, 19:41:05 from abl-show.cc:7: 19:41:05 libunix.h:22:19: error: stdio.h: No such file or directory 19:42:39 what's up with these fundamental headers going missing 19:43:03 they're all in /usr/include 19:43:22 well, problems with the basic toolchain are sadly not something I can help you with on osx 19:45:51 -!- syllogism has quit [] 19:47:13 well, thanks anyway, the bit about the makefile was valuable :) 19:51:12 what's wrong with the xcode project at the minute? 19:52:33 is that directed at anyone? 19:52:34 i.e. me? 19:58:22 due: grinder is very convenient, this is the second time he's given me a hammer to use 20:18:18 this makes no sense, every documentation I can see indicates gcc always looks in /usr/include for headers 20:18:23 but it's not finding it 20:18:25 >:\ 20:29:31 got it! 20:41:31 what is the config options called for adjusting the term size? 20:47:30 nevermind 20:58:47 -!- elliptic_ has joined ##crawl-dev 21:00:59 -!- elliptic has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:01:12 -!- elliptic_ is now known as elliptic 21:04:57 Apportation can miscast on an invalid target (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2264) by minmay 21:12:19 -!- JamezQ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:17:36 Kal (L8 SpSt) ASSERT(!env.markers.need_activate()) in 'main.cc' at line 2714 failed. 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