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00:25:10 <xale> folks, where should be the 'settings' directory on a mac?
00:25:22 <xale> the one where it tries to save macros.
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01:23:09 <felirx> I had something totally silly like 7~15 potions of might for one trove
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02:52:19 <by> felirx: how is 7-15 potions of might silly?
02:52:55 <by> my last game requested a +3 robe of resistance which I didn't find, but looking for it was a fun challenge
02:58:22 <felirx> It's an amount that you are very unlikely to find until maybe you're already in zot
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03:02:48 <Napkin> xale?
03:02:53 <Napkin> considering this: http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/stone-soup-0-6-0-heizolruckstosabdampfung/comment-page-1#comment-220
03:03:15 <Napkin> I guess you macro file should be beside it
03:03:28 <Napkin> can't you save your macros in-game?
03:03:35 <Napkin> and have it created automatically?
03:04:54 <by> felirx: !might is roughly three times as common as !cure mutation, for which finding three is not that unlikely
03:05:16 <felirx> I've found three mights in my current game that has 2 runes now
03:05:35 <by> 15 may be a bit high, but I think 7 is ok
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03:05:48 <felirx> 6~7 is good enough yeah
03:05:58 <felirx> but I remember it being closer to 15 which made me go :D
03:06:41 <by> also I think it's fine if it's quite random -- if there's a game where you're tempted to go to pan to access some trove, that's good
03:07:00 <felirx> of course one game I paid 3600 gold fora trove
03:07:05 <felirx> that had nothing interesting at all :(
03:07:18 <felirx> but such is rng!
03:09:28 <xale> Napkin: I edited init.txt to point to a specific directory, so it works now.
03:09:39 <Napkin> great :)
03:09:43 <xale> Napkin: but it didn't work out of the box
03:10:08 <Napkin> could you please search the mantis tracker, if it has been reported yet, xale?
03:10:32 <xale> okay
03:10:43 <Napkin> thanks!
03:11:48 <felirx> Napkin: could you update the prebuilt binaries, they're 23 days old now
03:11:57 <Napkin> trunk?
03:12:01 <Napkin> sure
03:12:15 <felirx> trunk cdo win console+tiles
03:13:12 <xale> yeah, I think it's #1132
03:13:35 <Napkin> bump it? :)
03:13:51 <Napkin> in case it's not resolved/closed yet
03:14:20 <xale> *shrug* it's there, someone will fix it when they want to :-)
03:14:42 <Napkin> mentioning your work-around would help others too in the meantime
03:14:45 <Napkin> ;)
03:20:13 <Napkin> non-tiles build done, felirx
03:20:27 <felirx> cheers
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03:27:36 <Napkin> tiles build done too, felirx
03:28:33 <felirx> cheers
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04:38:05 <Ashenzari> Combine Elyvilon's self-healing with monster healing (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1612) by username
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05:06:13 <CIA-39> 03by * r042f4c9c8cd4 10/crawl-ref/source/database.cc: Fix endless loop when rebuilding quote db.
05:07:07 <Napkin> come on, guys
05:07:11 <Napkin> cyclops in D6?
05:07:31 <Napkin> just because it took me a while longer to clean out that huge kobold vault?
05:07:52 <Napkin> especially since I always rested in the level above?!
05:07:57 <xale> walk away!
05:08:16 <xale> the worst I've seen is ogre on d:1, but again just walk away.
05:08:29 <Napkin> couldn't - there was still a kobold left
05:09:08 <by> cyclops are slow
05:10:06 <Napkin> that justifies it?
05:10:33 <by> no, it was meant as a helpful suggestion
05:10:39 <Napkin> i was just cleaning a level
05:11:11 <KiloByte> slow but large rocks are murder (ask your lv1 TrHu about that)
05:11:26 <Napkin> that's not the point
05:11:53 <Napkin> do i really need to hurry through the level now in fear i spend too much time causing oods to spawn?
05:12:26 <KiloByte> indeed, they're way overdone
05:12:28 <Napkin> at least prevent 8x5 square kobold vaults in d6 then?
05:12:50 <Napkin> *sigh*
05:12:53 <KiloByte> big OODs shouldn't spawn until close to 20k turns on the level
05:13:11 <Napkin> as i said - i took care to always rest in the level above
05:13:17 <Ashenzari> endless loop when rebuilding text db for overly long lines (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1613) by rob
05:13:28 <Napkin> well..
05:13:38 <Napkin> felirx> but such is rng!
05:13:41 <Napkin> rng sucks!
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05:46:13 <dpeg> cheers
05:46:30 <Napkin> Mahlzeit!
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05:49:36 <Mu_> a lot of armour complaints on SA today, no idea which version they're playing though
05:58:10 <CIA-39> 03by * rc8a6eac1ece4 10/crawl-ref/source/delay.cc: Attempt to fix extra turns wasted by running.
05:58:23 <st_> a "big OOD" i.e. a stone giant just spawned after 4000 turns on a level
05:58:30 <st_> while I was just playing normally
05:59:16 <Napkin> kinda had the same.. cyclops in d6
05:59:30 <Napkin> <- playing stable, though
06:00:15 <st_> this game is stable but I had a OOD stone giant in trunk a few days ago too
06:00:59 <dpeg> st_: 4000 turns on a level is a lot
06:01:28 <dpeg> Mu_: Hi! Sure, but SA is a complain amplifier. Who were they when armour was hopelessly overpowered?
06:02:06 <dpeg> s/Who/Where/
06:02:40 <Mu_> probably playing 60AC dwarfs :)
06:02:40 <Napkin> then don't put 8x5 kobolds vaults in it - it takes a time to clean them.. though I doubt I took 4000 turns
06:03:02 <Napkin> considering i was always resting in the level above.. to make sure no ood get spawned :D
06:03:34 <dpeg> Wimps! OOD spawned == more xp :)
06:03:35 <st_> it doesn't feel like I'm even playing slowly
06:03:48 <st_> there was just a ton on the level
06:04:10 <Napkin> that's what I thought - and rng got me again, dpeg :-P
06:04:18 <Mu_> gnoll castle usually makes me legitimately hang around on a level for a while too
06:04:24 <dpeg> We can tweak the numbers, but I am not sure it's a grave problem.
06:04:35 <dpeg> Mu_: that's already good xp in itself.
06:04:41 <Napkin> it's just annoying to have to hurry
06:04:42 <Mu_> yeah
06:04:54 <dpeg> !seen greensnark
06:04:54 <Henzell> I last saw greensnark at Thu May 20 20:38:36 2010 UTC (3d 14h 26m 18s ago) saying You should go get the book from by already :) on ##crawl-dev.
06:05:28 <dpeg> greensnark would be up to tweaking, I think.
06:06:30 <st_> now that I think I do have curare, maybe I can take it
06:07:05 <dpeg> quite some complaints on r.g.r.m
06:07:09 <dpeg> Is Crawl breaking?
06:08:43 <dpeg> (rhetorical question, not that anyone of you would answer)
06:10:56 <cbus> dpeg, complaints on that it is harder? :)
06:11:09 <Napkin> only rng is broken - as always ;>
06:11:09 <cbus> (saw some post on CDO 0.6 release)
06:11:11 <cbus> hehe
06:17:19 <dpeg> cbus: the complaints are for free.
06:17:21 <dpeg> As you know :P
06:18:03 <cbus> dpeg, hehe
06:18:11 <cbus> dpeg, I'm SDK now (for real) :)
06:19:15 <dpeg> All hail the cbus!
06:19:44 <cbus> dpeg, almost won vs a 3kyu (giving me 5 stones) :)
06:20:15 <cbus> (by almost I mean that I missed a stupid move that killed a big group of mine)
06:20:27 <cbus> the 3k was playing seriously and had counted that I was +6-7 points before :)
06:21:25 <Napkin> Welcome to Plog's Weapon Shoppe!
06:21:28 <Napkin> hihi
06:21:42 <cbus> napkin, :)
06:22:34 <dpeg> Napkin: we Ploogs make fine weapon since medieval times
06:22:47 <Napkin> so were are you hiding them?!
06:22:56 <Napkin> none in your shoppe ;-P
06:23:03 <Napkin> geizig!
06:23:07 <dpeg> Napkin: sold out!
06:23:12 <dpeg> You're a bit late :)
06:23:20 <Napkin> dooh - as always! :D
06:26:07 <Napkin> critical hit by Menkaure... wtf!
06:26:21 <Napkin> /quit
06:27:26 <dpeg> Napkin: pain?
06:27:42 <dpeg> Had this myself recently... thought, I could safely run away, but not so.
06:39:23 <Napkin> no, hit by bare hands, I believe
06:39:36 <Napkin> how are Sigmund and Menaure doing?
06:39:56 <Napkin> compared to each other in slaughtering low-level chars?
06:40:56 <by> !lm * cv=0.6 uniq=menkaure
06:41:06 <by> !lg * cv=0.6 ikiller=menkaure
06:41:11 <Henzell> 1406. [2010-05-24] mafalda the Cleaver (L8 MiBe) killed Menkaure on turn 6069. (D:6)
06:41:11 <Henzell> 169. Napkin the Stinger (L6 KoSt), worshipper of Yredelemnul, slain by Menkaure on D:4 on 2010-05-24, with 354 points after 6347 turns and 0:31:23.
06:41:15 <by> !lm * cv=0.6 uniq=sigmund
06:41:20 <by> !lg * cv=0.6 ikiller=sigmund
06:41:34 <Henzell> 2503. [2010-05-24] mafalda the Chopper (L4 MiBe) killed Sigmund on turn 2769. (D:3)
06:41:34 <Henzell> 1185. Maarek the Chopper (L3 DDCK), worshipper of Makhleb, mangled by Sigmund (a +0,+0 scythe) on D:2 on 2010-05-24, with 117 points after 1058 turns and 0:08:47.
06:41:54 <by> sigmund is doing better
06:43:01 <Napkin> killed sigmund and terence in d3, killed by menkaure in d4
06:43:03 <Napkin> pity
06:43:23 <by> !lg * cv=0.6 killer=menkaure s=place
06:43:23 <Henzell> 169 games for * (cv=0.6 killer=menkaure): 98x D:4, 45x D:5, 17x D:6, 6x D:7, 2x D:3, 1x Ossuary
06:43:47 <by> quite deadly on D:4, it seems
06:43:50 <cbus> does menkaure have many kills? :0
06:43:54 <cbus> cause that bugger is nasty
06:43:59 <by> !lm * cv=0.6 uniq=menkaure place=d:4
06:44:00 <KiloByte> just like Sigmund on D:2
06:44:07 <Henzell> 428. [2010-05-24] colubroid the Sneak (L6 SpVM) killed Menkaure on turn 4633. (D:4)
06:44:09 <cbus> sigmund is probably easier ;)
06:44:11 <by> !lg * cv=0.6 killer=menkaure place=d:4
06:44:11 <Henzell> 98. Napkin the Stinger (L6 KoSt), worshipper of Yredelemnul, slain by Menkaure on D:4 on 2010-05-24, with 354 points after 6347 turns and 0:31:23.
06:44:15 <cbus> ?? menkaure
06:44:16 <Henzell> menkaure[1/1]: A unique, early mummy, also found in Ossuary. Knows pain, torment, and haste. Orc-wizard purple!
06:44:17 <dpeg> Napkin: just a matter of time to build sufficient respect for him.
06:44:38 <by> but still only around 20% kill rate on D:4
06:44:49 <by> !lm * cv=0.6 uniq=sigmund place=d:2
06:44:55 <by> !lg * cv=0.6 killer=sigmund place=d:2
06:44:58 <syllogism> i imagine a lot of people run away from him
06:45:11 <syllogism> though same holds true for sigmund
06:45:21 <Henzell> 621. [2010-05-24] Shane the Chiller (L7 MfIE) killed Sigmund on turn 5934. (D:2)
06:45:21 <Henzell> 718. Maarek the Chopper (L3 DDCK), worshipper of Makhleb, mangled by Sigmund (a +0,+0 scythe) on D:2 on 2010-05-24, with 117 points after 1058 turns and 0:08:47.
06:45:22 <syllogism> but it's easier to run away from menkaure
06:45:24 <dpeg> syllogism: as it should be
06:45:29 <syllogism> yes
06:45:34 <Napkin> running away never works, since he speeds himself
06:45:36 <by> milestones for noticing uniques would be useful here
06:46:07 <dpeg> Napkin: I did it :)
06:46:18 <by> Napkin: run away the first turn you see them, not when the fight goes bad
06:46:27 <Napkin> i had teleportation thrown on when i saw him.. so.. fucking rng prolonged my teleportation and gave him critical hit - hooray
06:46:33 <syllogism> i've always ran away from menkaure, except as a necromancer
06:46:34 <Napkin> i did, by
06:46:53 <KiloByte> a single zap of a wand of fire gets him
06:46:54 <by> well, you said running away never works due to haste
06:47:05 <by> that's not true if you run early
06:47:24 <Napkin> O_o
06:48:10 <Napkin> explain?
06:48:21 <Napkin> because I thought I turned around the second I saw him
06:48:57 <by> running would work if you were lucky enough that menkaure doesn't cast haste on the first turn
06:49:14 <by> not sure about the chance for that, but it's probably not that high
06:50:57 <Napkin> i saw him 3 times playing today, the second I saw him I moved away, three times he immediately hasted himself so I read teleportation
06:51:36 <Napkin> yeah, the last time I was luckily put into a room with one exit and no stairs
06:52:12 <Napkin> and he walked straight to that room, and this time teleportation kicked in too late
06:53:15 <dpeg> Napkin, the collector of bad luck.
06:54:17 <Napkin> anyways, I have died to Ijyb today already - who picked up the 5 darts from that trap I had to run over to get back to the stairs - and ouch, ouch, ouch, dead :D
06:54:31 <cbus> !coffee
06:54:32 * Henzell hands cbus a pot of cappuccino, brewed by Nikola.
06:54:50 <cbus> !beer napkin
06:55:12 <Napkin> :)
07:05:14 <dpeg> Napkin: if you're about to optimise survival rates, you'd better pick up all stones and darts :)
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07:18:06 <Napkin> darts have become very strong
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07:18:40 <dpeg> Napkin: both ways?
07:18:43 <Napkin> crossbow is very strong, bows feel completely weak, and large stones are the number one killers, right after javelins, it seems
07:18:46 <Napkin> yes
07:19:02 <Napkin> apart from bows.. they seem to be much stronger with centauers
07:19:41 <Napkin> maybe because they shoot twice? no clue
07:22:53 <CIA-39> 03by * rbbdee4a4904b 10/crawl-ref/source/ouch.cc: Inscribe unknown items with "unknown" on death (#1190).
07:26:05 <greensnark> Haha, rgrmisc: "Spots a 27 headed learnen hydra. No idea how dangerous it would be but presume no worse than a couple of 8 headers."
07:26:18 <by> yes, that's a good laugh
07:27:13 <cbus> lol, clever :)
07:27:19 <greensnark> Math education is going to the dogs :P
07:27:31 <by> it's both more than five
07:27:45 <cbus> rename it to "epic megadangerous pirate and ninja 27 headed learnen hydra" and they might get it
07:28:09 <greensnark> !lg * killer=~lernaean
07:28:10 <Henzell> 4. Johan the Gelid (L15 DSIE), worshipper of Vehumet, slain by the 27-headed Lernaean hydra on Swamp:5 on 2010-05-24, with 77653 points after 35195 turns and 3:13:01.
07:28:19 <greensnark> Oh, 4 victims already
07:28:22 <greensnark> Last I checked it was victimless
07:28:28 <cbus> Ie :)
07:28:31 <syllogism> "Say I want say, a high elf necromancer, but I don't want a high dex, but rather more str and int, I cannot have one because all high elf necros now come with a set 16 Dex. So, I have to resort to rolling up a wanderer over n over n over n over again."
07:28:35 <cbus> @? lernaean hydra
07:28:35 <Gretell> the Lernaean hydra (08D) | Speed: 10 (swim: 60%) | HD: 30 | Health: 150 | AC/EV: 0/5 | Damage: 18 per head | Flags: amphibious, cold-blooded | Res: 06magic(120), 03poison | Chunks: 09poisonous | XP: 7599.
07:28:54 <greensnark> syllogism: rgrmisc is actually worse than SA :P
07:29:04 <greensnark> At least SA is complaining about the armour nerf, and they have a point :P
07:29:24 <cbus> greensnark, nothing about the Tm nerf? :)
07:29:26 <Napkin> release 0.7 already! :>
07:29:36 <greensnark> I'm still staggered that someone can say 2*8 = 27 :P
07:30:03 <cbus> well 16 ~= 27 ;)
07:30:13 <syllogism> "You didn't kill "scumming the start", you made it mandatory"
07:30:14 <syllogism> <3
07:30:14 <KiloByte> @??hydra
07:30:15 <Gretell> hydra (09D) | Speed: 10 (swim: 60%) | HD: 13 | Health: 39-104 | AC/EV: 0/5 | Damage: 18 per head | Flags: amphibious | Res: 06magic(52), 03poison | Chunks: 09poisonous | XP: 1212.
07:30:26 <KiloByte> and much higher HD, and thus more accurate
07:30:56 <syllogism> "What I am saying is that it looks like the hp/mana formula is beingignored here and the new wanderer is sometimes cheated of hps/mana heshould rightfully have. "
07:31:01 <syllogism> the whole post is a work of art
07:31:21 <greensnark> syllogism: He's a rank amateur :P
07:31:38 <greensnark> I suspect him of being the same guy who kept complaining about the Jiyva passive damage jelly spawning :P
07:31:48 <greensnark> At least he sounds the same :P
07:32:32 <greensnark> dpeg is being Mr Reasonable on rgrmisc :P
07:32:57 <dpeg> greensnark: yes!
07:33:13 <greensnark> I think that allows me to be direct :P
07:33:16 <dpeg> greensnark: there've been complaints about OOD generation for idling kicking in too fast.
07:33:41 <dpeg> greensnark: and by serious persons, like Napking :)
07:33:47 <Napkin> rofl
07:33:54 <Napkin> rng sucks! :>
07:33:54 <felirx> lemuel_castle is probably the biggest culprit
07:34:14 <KiloByte> Napkin isn't serious -- all sane people suck and he doesn't
07:34:28 <Napkin> pah!
07:34:52 <greensnark> dpeg: Someone died yet? :P
07:35:05 <KiloByte> the castle is one of best vaults we have
07:35:07 <greensnark> I got a little yaktaur pack on D:7 once :P
07:35:12 <syllogism> someone on SA got a d6 lich
07:35:15 <greensnark> I killed them all :P
07:35:16 <greensnark> syllogism: <3
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07:35:38 <greensnark> I guess they did not manage to take out the lich? :P
07:35:40 <Napkin> d6 cyclops - spend too much time cleaning a 8x5 kobold vault? :-P
07:35:52 <felirx> lemuel_castle is cool, it just takes ages to clear :)
07:35:57 <KiloByte> !lg * ikiller=~lich s=place
07:36:22 <Henzell> 355 games for * (ikiller=~lich): 126x Abyss, 58x Crypt:5, 46x Zot:5, 27x Vault:8, 12x Vault:7, 9x D:27, 7x D:26, 7x Vault:6, 5x Vault:5, 5x D:12, 4x D:25, 4x D:17, 4x Crypt:4, 3x D:18, 3x Tomb:1, 3x WizLab, 2x Vault:4, 2x D:21, 2x D:16, 2x Geh:7, 2x Crypt:2, 2x D:11, 2x D:19, 2x D:24, 1x Geh:4, 1x Zot:4, 1x D:14, 1x Zig:11, 1x Tomb:3, 1x Hell, 1x D:13, 1x Zig:9, 1x Zig:10, 1x Vault:1, 1x Crypt:1, ...
07:36:25 <greensnark> We can increase the ramp-up time, but once the game decides to roll a super OOD it doesn't care what depth you're on
07:36:41 <greensnark> And b26 allows super OODs at any time, just vanishingly rare
07:36:55 <syllogism> greensnark: http://logan-1.mirror.waffleimages.com/files/cc/cc3f39b9cf38d4d0919935dd688d41d5c7e364aa.jpg
07:36:59 <greensnark> So we can make the OOD ramp slower, but people are still going to get the rare super-OOD and whine
07:37:13 <greensnark> syllogism: What turncount? :)
07:37:18 <syllogism> 11000
07:37:36 <greensnark> So what does the ##crawl-dev caucus propose :P
07:37:48 <syllogism> working as intended
07:37:59 <cbus> more oods
07:38:07 <cbus> that should teach them not to whine!
07:38:18 <greensnark> If someone wants changes, please thresh out the details on the wiki. I'm happy to slot in new numbers that are ##crawl-dev consensus
07:38:44 <KiloByte> I'd say, smaller OODs early on, but more near 20k
07:38:47 <dpeg> greensnark: I am fine with any change you apply, including none.
07:40:17 <KiloByte> about starting gods: is there any reason to keep disallowing falchions as starting weapons?  That's the only reason most people choose Pa for.
07:40:45 <KiloByte> long blades used to be powerful, but that's no longer the case.
07:40:48 <greensnark> Yes: not every weapon needs to be a starting weapon
07:41:05 <greensnark> And it's trivial to pick up a long blade after training short blades
07:41:17 <greensnark> Players should just quit whining and play the bloody game :P
07:41:24 <KiloByte> weapon: sure, weapon class: I don't see why
07:41:54 <greensnark> We can go with b0rsuk's "swords be rare" explanation if we need to
07:42:20 <greensnark> It's really not a big deal
07:42:51 <greensnark> The kind of people who obsess about not starting with a long blade are the kind who obsess over the xp loss from draining and other such inanisms :P
07:42:58 <greensnark> So I don't mind disappointing them
07:43:07 <greensnark> But no strong opinion against :P
07:43:35 <cbus> greensnark, the XP loss can be fixed by adding more oods that give nice xp
07:43:36 <cbus> ;)
07:43:41 <cbus> *hint hint hint*
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07:44:59 <greensnark> !coffee cbus
07:44:59 * Henzell hands cbus a barrel of cappuccino, brewed by Ijyb.
07:45:02 <dpeg> KiloByte: personally, I'd prefer to remove Pa without any further change, but I wouldn't fight to death over preventing falchions at start.
07:45:38 <greensnark> Remove falchions from the game
07:45:41 <felirx> Paladins are in general quite a distinct "class" though
07:45:48 <greensnark> That'll be a good reason not to start anyone with falchions :P
07:45:53 <greensnark> And we can give Pa scimitars :P
07:45:54 <felirx> in common games that is
07:46:32 <cbus> greensnark, ooh a barrell!
07:46:36 <cbus> greensnark, just had a large coffee though :)
07:46:37 <KiloByte> !lg * class=Pa xl>8 xl<23 s=god
07:46:38 <Henzell> 1889 games for * (class=Pa xl>8 xl<23): 1647x The Shining One, 131x Okawaru, 59x Elyvilon, 13x Trog, 10x Zin, 7x Cheibriados, 5x , 3x Xom, 3x Nemelex Xobeh, 3x Makhleb, 2x Vehumet, 2x Jiyva, 1x Yredelemnul, 1x Kikubaaqudgha, 1x Beogh, 1x Sif Muna
07:46:40 <greensnark> cbus: Lucky you :P
07:46:57 <cbus> got a work interview on wednesday
07:46:59 <cbus> hmm :)
07:47:01 <greensnark> The problem of Pa ditching TSO is trivially solved by marking the starting long blade as divine and nuking it if TSO is abandoned :P
07:47:09 <dpeg> felirx: TSO is a god who's not useful early on.
07:47:13 <felirx> I know that
07:47:20 <KiloByte> beh, 7 in 8 kept TSO?  I thought it will be a lot more dumpers.
07:47:23 <felirx> just the "paladin" consept in general
07:47:37 <dpeg> felirx: there should be a good god available upon start, Ely would do nicely.
07:48:08 <greensnark> TSO could be made more useful in the early game
07:48:15 <greensnark> And less OP in the late game :P
07:48:41 <greensnark> The halo is strictly beneficial now, right?
07:48:48 <dpeg> yes
07:48:52 <KiloByte> save for stealth, yes
07:49:00 <greensnark> And killing player invis, I guess
07:49:08 <dpeg> greensnark: as long as the very late game is infested by undead and demons, TSO's appeal will bias towards that.
07:49:12 <greensnark> That's a nice early bonus
07:49:17 <greensnark> dpeg: Yes, the demonfest is a problem
07:49:25 <greensnark> Too many demonic places
07:49:41 <greensnark> Hell + Pan is really quite a lot of demonage
07:50:06 <KiloByte> we have no proposals for non-demonic non-undead late game branches
07:50:11 <dpeg> greensnark: we will change that, but until then, boosting TSO's early appeal just breaks the god.
07:50:19 <greensnark> There were some proposals to change Pan
07:50:29 <dpeg> KiloByte: holy monsters could make up some Pan levels.
07:50:30 <KiloByte> all current ideas (Forest, Desert, Spider) go for midgame
07:50:39 <greensnark> KiloByte: Where do the new spriggan monsters appear?
07:50:52 <greensnark> @??-version
07:50:52 <Gretell> Monster stats Crawl version: 0.7.0-a0-1670-g4f79b14
07:51:21 <greensnark> dpeg: We need some Lair:$ vaults :P
07:51:25 <greensnark> Lair is still too boring :P
07:51:34 <KiloByte> greensnark: currently nowhere, I'll add a couple of vaults for 0.7, but ultimately, they're supposed to go into Forest
07:51:40 <greensnark> And could we make vaults generated more often in Orc?
07:51:59 <dpeg> greensnark: sure
07:52:00 <greensnark> Is the Forest a Lair branch or portal vault?
07:52:13 <dpeg> greensnark: ultimately a branch
07:52:14 <cbus> you could make half lair a forest
07:52:25 <cbus> and make lair less boring by having 4 levels of lair and 4 levels of forest
07:52:26 <cbus> or something
07:52:40 <dpeg> KiloByte: that's a good point... we could make a smooth transition (within Lair) between Lair (as now) and Forest.
07:52:49 <KiloByte> greensnark: a branch (for multiple technical but not gameplay reasons)
07:53:47 <KiloByte> that would require reducing the difficulty and skipping delivering quick blades of distortion between your ribs, but that's not a bad idea too
07:54:08 <greensnark> We should at least add some spriggan vaults for 0.7
07:54:11 <KiloByte> I mean, transitioning Lair is, not avoiding distortion
07:54:15 * greensnark likes teh shiny new monsters.
07:54:42 <greensnark> Speaking of new monsters, D&D are fun
07:54:51 <greensnark> Also Maurice
07:55:10 <greensnark> Pikel doesn't seem quite as interesting as he could be because his slaves wander off
07:55:26 <KiloByte> greensnark: we'd need to settle on a difficulty level, to balance them somehow.  That's the only reason I didn't add some vaults yet.
07:56:02 <KiloByte> with Pikel, you just need to reorder them so Pikel comes first
07:56:19 <greensnark> Yes, Pikel is too easy to isolate and kill
07:56:43 <greensnark> D&D are also trivial to isolate, but the power up when you kill one makes them interesting
07:56:57 <KiloByte> Maurice is annoying rather than dangerous, he can't take your entire inventory like Nethack nymphs
07:57:07 <greensnark> Well, I'm very fond of NH nymphs <3
07:57:14 <greensnark> They produce such hilarious scenes
07:57:24 <KiloByte> and teleporting away whenever he's at low health is as annoying as old submergers
07:57:32 <greensnark> I loved the game where I had the invisible Maurice the blowfly chasing me :P
07:57:38 <syllogism> not nearly as annoying
07:58:00 <KiloByte> Maurice should be more stealing less teleports
07:59:09 <greensnark> @??-version
07:59:09 <Gretell> Monster stats Crawl version: 0.7.0-a0-1885-gbbdee4a
07:59:14 <greensnark> @??Maurice
07:59:14 <Gretell> Maurice (03@) | Speed: 11 | HD: 5 | Health: 60 | AC/EV: 1/13 | Damage: 9 | Flags: spellcaster | Res: 06magic(26) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 463 | Sp: invisibility, blink, teleport self.
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08:08:02 <Vandal> when dpeg mentioned I should comment on the levitation wiki post, did he mean the one about zero gravity levitation?
08:08:07 <Vandal> uncontrolled
08:10:16 <dpeg> Vandal: what was your idea again?
08:10:23 <Vandal> I didn't have one
08:10:33 <Vandal> I was just saying it was too easy to circumvent the water in shoals
08:10:53 <Vandal> Rings, boots, potions, spells, of ignore deep water
08:10:57 <greensnark> It's too easy to circumvent the poison in Snake :P
08:11:09 <felirx> using rings or potions to  float be scary
08:11:23 <greensnark> If permaflight/swim is too common, that would be a problem
08:11:43 <greensnark> Two species do have it cushy, but others using temp lev seems fine to me
08:12:00 <Vandal> It is pretty much guaranteed you'll be able to fly over all the water in Shoals if you wait long enough to go there
08:12:08 <Vandal> That is how I handled it when I got the shoals rune
08:12:21 <Vandal> There are just so many available methods
08:12:23 <greensnark> If you wait long enough to go there you won't need to fly
08:13:04 <felirx> waiting for shoals is /yawn!
08:13:05 <KiloByte> there's too much island hopping to make waiting for tides viable
08:13:23 <by> shoals also gets indirect kills by sending low-level characters elsewhere
08:13:35 <Vandal> Meh.  I just think it would make Kenku and Merfolk swimming stand out more if it wasn't so easy for everyone else to do the same thing
08:14:04 <greensnark> It's not particularly necessary for them to stand out more, they already stand out a lot :P
08:14:24 <greensnark> Ke and Mf are among the most differentiated and powerful species :P
08:14:48 <Vandal> I believe you are the first person to ever tell me Ke are powerful, though I do like them personally
08:15:00 <by> ke are powerful
08:15:00 <KiloByte> kenku flying is useless in most places
08:15:01 <greensnark> Ke are very powerful
08:15:14 <greensnark> They get ridiculous aux unarmed attacks and great apts
08:15:23 <KiloByte> super dying powers!
08:15:24 <greensnark> Completely apart from their permaflight and speed boost from flight
08:15:26 <cbus> greensnark, don't forget their conj skil
08:15:29 <felirx> merfolk swimming changed my game atleast
08:15:33 <greensnark> cbus: "great apts"
08:15:35 <syllogism> and ev boost
08:15:37 <felirx> seeking for water to fight in instead of avoiding it
08:15:58 <felirx> (or creating the water via fedhas)
08:16:14 <dpeg> wearing CPM: AC 19, EV -2 <3
08:17:09 <KiloByte> dpeg: did you actually find CPM on a char that can use it well?
08:17:13 <KiloByte> that... can't be
08:17:28 <Zaba> well, there *do* seem to be quite a lot of sources of levitation
08:19:23 <dpeg> KiloByte: I am a DSFi. Will be some time until I can use it, but I'll try.
08:19:37 <Vandal> trivializes water, all I'm sayin'
08:20:17 <Vandal> slime walls are still nasty no matter what you've got equipped, always a chance they'll mess you up
08:20:29 <Vandal> I have to go to class, see ya
08:20:33 <Zaba> if I were to remove one source of levitation out of potion, spell, boots and ring, I would remove the spell, because it's cheap and somewhat common and once you have it, there's little reason to use potions or rings, for example
08:20:44 <by> what do you think of removing (or significantly reducing) the influence of spellcasting skill on spell success?
08:20:56 <felirx> you can't re-evoke a ring for levitation unless that was changed
08:21:03 <Zaba> felirx, indeed you cannot
08:21:10 <Vandal> you just spam the spell
08:21:12 <felirx> which means drown you go.
08:21:20 <Zaba> Vandal, yes, which is what I don't like about the spell.
08:21:28 <Vandal> because it does let you recast it, and you get mp back faster than it consumes it
08:21:30 <Zaba> It's quite a no-brainer when it comes to levitation.
08:21:47 <felirx> levitation without cfly is very annoying
08:21:52 <KiloByte> by: why?  It's already pretty minor; it makes sense a master archmage can cast cantrips of schools he doesn't know well.
08:21:56 <Vandal> drowning is more annoying
08:22:01 <Vandal> ok really going
08:22:22 <KiloByte> there are two distinct ways of levitating: spell/potion and rings/arts
08:22:45 <KiloByte> the former are extendable but cannot be aborted, the latter can be stopped at any time
08:22:55 <by> so you don't get any low-level spell for free
08:23:03 <Zaba> are boots of levitation evokable?
08:23:15 <KiloByte> oh right, three ways
08:23:16 <felirx> yes
08:23:19 <KiloByte> Zaba: yes
08:24:21 <KiloByte> by: it would lead just to victory dancing to get that cheap 1-3 levels in most schools
08:25:06 <Zaba> I've never had a problem with being unable to stop the levitation spell/potion effect; I just hit 5 and waste some turns.
08:27:28 <Zaba> and being extendable seems to outweigh being stoppable for most practical purposes.
08:34:11 <greensnark> !lg * killer=~Sigmund*sheep -tv
08:34:12 <Henzell> 1. Temoid, XL5 DSCK, T:3477 requested for FooTV.
08:35:21 <KiloByte> wait... someone SHEEPED Siggy?
08:35:30 <greensnark> Xom did
08:35:39 <greensnark> A sheep casting throw flame <3 <3 <3
08:35:40 <KiloByte> we need to implement sheep fires.  Badly.
08:36:05 <greensnark> Yes
08:36:24 <greensnark> They should burn for several turns, spreading the fire to nearby trees and sheep
08:36:33 <greensnark> And when they're done burning they should explode in little fireballs!
08:37:14 <KiloByte> and have special roasted chunks
08:37:22 <greensnark> Mm, roast mutton
08:40:46 <greensnark> !lg * killer=deep elf master archer s=cv
08:40:46 <Henzell> 124 games for * (killer=deep elf master archer): 82x 0.5, 19x 0.4, 7x 0.5-a, 6x 0.6-a, 5x 0.3, 3x 0.7-a, 2x 0.6
08:41:25 <greensnark> dpeg: Now that we've made the token concessional nerf for master archers, time to unnerf them? :P
08:41:39 <greensnark> We could also make blademasters a little more interesting :P
08:43:23 <KiloByte> hmm... were they nerfed?  The numbers look appaling.  0.6 may have been out for a shorter time than 0.5, but not 41 times shorter...
08:44:43 <casmith789> maybe it's because everyone's paranoid of elf:7
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08:47:41 <greensnark> Yeah, maybe not many players are getting to Elf
08:47:47 <greensnark> !lm * br.end=Elf s=cv
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08:48:00 <Henzell> 4785 milestones for * (br.end=Elf): 1567x 0.5, 1289x 0.4, 824x 0.3, 321x 0.2, 319x 0.6-a, 230x 0.6, 89x 0.5-a, 88x 0.7-a, 58x 0.4-a
08:48:24 <greensnark> So 5% -> 0.8%
08:49:21 <syllogism> why were they nerfed anyway
08:49:54 <greensnark> Loud whining noises constantly aimed at dpeg :)
08:50:12 <greensnark> There was a legitimate point: they were getting many more kills than annihilators
08:50:18 <syllogism> how is that legitimate :P
08:50:20 <greensnark> We should have just boosted annihilators and the rest :P
08:50:50 <syllogism> because annihilators have a scarier name? :P
08:50:58 <greensnark> Well, DE are the magic types
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08:51:09 <greensnark> So you'd expect the biggest DE magic users to be super-competent
08:51:15 <KiloByte> annihilators are meh.  Master archers are avoidable too (grab a pet or use a corner).  It's only demonologists I fear a lot.
08:51:20 <syllogism> but they aren't master annihilators, are they :P
08:51:25 <greensnark> syllogism: :D
08:51:45 <greensnark> The other problem with the super master archer is that players just started avoiding Elf :P
08:51:49 <greensnark> That's the curse of the Crawl dungeon :P
08:51:53 <greensnark> So easy to avoid places :P
08:52:01 <greensnark> Like Shoals
08:52:07 <syllogism> if you stop nerfing they'll eventually have to make some choices :P
08:52:12 <casmith789> I fear all of Elf:7 if it's not confused
08:52:40 <greensnark> casmith789: So you're in the nerf-meph camp? Yay!
08:52:49 <casmith789> is that what I said? :P
08:52:55 <greensnark> The Silence guns have been spiked, big time :D
08:53:00 <greensnark> Only meph remains :P
08:53:04 <casmith789> lol
08:53:18 <casmith789> I'm a big advocator of meph, even on SpEn
08:53:30 <greensnark> casmith789: See, you keep endorsing the meph nerf!
08:53:42 <casmith789> yeah saying that comment does seem to indicate so
08:53:47 <greensnark> !learn add casmith789 Supports nerfing mephitic cloud!
08:53:47 <Henzell> casmith789[1/1]: Supports nerfing mephitic cloud!
08:53:51 <eith> :D
08:54:03 <casmith789> !learn add casmith789 Did I say that? :/
08:54:03 <Henzell> casmith789[2/2]: Did I say that? :/
08:54:21 <greensnark> Well, I can read between the lines
08:54:25 <casmith789> :)
08:54:51 <KiloByte> wait, so you want to encourage people to go to Elf:7 by removing ways to make the elves nice and fluffy?
08:55:02 <greensnark> KiloByte: Not at all
08:55:05 <casmith789> Elf:7 is good cause of the loot
08:55:06 <greensnark> These are unrelated discussions :P
08:55:12 <greensnark> The DEMA nerf was to encourage people to go to Elf :P
08:55:18 <casmith789> DEMA?
08:55:22 <casmith789> oh right
08:55:58 <greensnark> We need some elven holiday packages
08:56:14 <greensnark> Including board, lodging, sightseeing and funeral expenses
08:56:18 <casmith789> DEMA are a problem because they're ridiculously hard for melee chars
08:56:30 <KiloByte> it's like "meph, meph, meph, yawn, scratch ass, (a demonologist was unconfused for one turn), DYWYPI"
08:56:34 <casmith789> s/melee/heavy armour fighting/
08:56:46 <casmith789> KiloByte: for that reason I don't do Elf:7 without haste or abjuration
08:57:10 <greensnark> Haste is the classic power spiral spell :(
08:57:21 <casmith789> nah I use haste to run away
08:57:23 <greensnark> It's quite distorted the late game to the point where everything assumes you have haste
08:57:50 <greensnark> And to make monsters competitive they have to have haste :P
08:58:04 <greensnark> Haste should never have been added to the game
08:58:09 <greensnark> It's been a disaster for balance
08:58:23 <greensnark> And now it's corrupted players and monsters both comprehensively
08:58:37 <syllogism> removing the spell and the wand would help
08:58:53 <greensnark> Well, you'd have to toss it from monsters too
08:58:57 <syllogism> not really :P
08:59:19 <greensnark> And in many places hasteless monsters are created in numbers assuming that the hero has haste or is such a ridiculous tank that nothing matters any more :P
08:59:19 <casmith789> that would boost oka even more
08:59:31 <greensnark> syllogism: Yeah, that would cut win rates a bit :)
08:59:52 <syllogism> they would still have potions
08:59:54 <greensnark> speed potions are rather scarce :)
09:00:11 <KiloByte> I'd keep both the spell and the wand (possibly nerfing haste), but Oka's haste definitely has to go
09:00:26 <casmith789> KiloByte: why? because no-one uses it?
09:00:41 <syllogism> it wouldn't affect 3 runers much
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09:04:33 <casmith789> if you want to nerf haste, make it level 7
09:06:07 <greensnark> casmith789: That wouldn't be enough
09:06:37 <greensnark> The problem is that once you have it your character is effectively 2x as strong :P
09:06:49 <casmith789> make haste a miscast effect of bone shards
09:07:02 <casmith789> (then people would actually use it :P)
09:07:03 <greensnark> So you need to balance for 1x characters and 2x characters (+haste), which messes with game balance everywhere
09:07:18 <greensnark> Weakening the effects of haste would be a good first step
09:07:35 * greensnark back to meetings.
09:07:37 <casmith789> in other words, weakening berserkers even further?
09:07:59 <eith> berserkers arent weak
09:08:00 <greensnark> casmith789: Nothing says berserkers have to share the same hasting effect as users of the spell/wand
09:08:19 <casmith789> I thought they were done using haste + might + hp
09:08:27 <greensnark> casmith789: That's an implementation detail
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09:33:40 <CIA-39> 03dolorous * r3ebf08058295 10/crawl-ref/source/item_use.cc: Simplify.
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09:52:43 <dpeg> back
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09:53:19 <dpeg> by: re Spc on success: I am in favour of full removal. The wiki page has ideas like that (by Eino and me).
09:53:34 <by> didn't find a relevant wiki page
09:54:15 <by> it would probably not help with enchantments, but e.g. digging would become less available
09:54:17 <dpeg> greensnark: re DEMA: yes, unnerfing is good.
09:54:57 <by> DEMAs made me flee a ziggurat in my last game; they seem to do plenty of damage
09:57:22 <dpeg> by: should I dig up the wiki page?
09:57:33 <dpeg> (Sort of responsible for three kids right now, might be missing anytime soon.)
09:57:48 <felirx> removing spc success does pose interesting questions
09:58:03 <dpeg> there's many other choices, too
09:58:05 <felirx> right now it's pretty much standard to turn of most skills at certain point to get more SPC faster
09:58:45 <dpeg> by: https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:misc:stats&s[]=spellcasting
09:58:48 <dpeg> Int section
09:58:52 <dpeg> and yes, that's hard to find
09:59:28 <syllogism> with 27 int you can cast level 2 spells reliably even with no spc
09:59:34 <syllogism> and no skills
10:00:07 <syllogism> 37 for level 3 spells
10:00:30 <by> so, remove both int and spc influence?
10:00:46 <dpeg> syllogism: as the wiki indicates, this can be changed in many directions
10:01:11 <dpeg> The basic point is that both success and power draw from all of Int, skill, Spc. Reduction is key.
10:01:22 <syllogism> one level in the relevant skill you'll need 31 int to cast level 3 spells reliably
10:01:22 <syllogism> with
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10:08:12 <Luca__> is the ipad code already public somewhere?
10:08:35 <by> I think ixtli has a github repository
10:09:51 <Luca__> thanks, http://github.com/ixtli/crawl/tree/ipad
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10:13:16 <syllogism> is it playable yet
10:13:38 <syllogism> guess not
10:14:39 <Cryp71c> There's not an ssh client available for the ipad? Or he's making a ipad-local version?
10:19:25 <ixtli> Luca__: What's up.
10:19:40 <ixtli> Cryp71c: ipad local for now.
10:19:56 <Luca__> wanted to look at an alternative implementation of the wrapper interfaces
10:19:56 <ixtli> In the future I'd really like to turn crawl client into a client/server app.
10:19:58 <Cryp71c> ixtli, tiles or console?
10:20:05 <ixtli> Cryp71c: tiles.
10:20:11 <Cryp71c> Gotcha.
10:20:22 <ixtli> Luca__: I've been meaning to write a wiki article about that ...
10:20:28 <ixtli> :D;;
10:21:57 <ixtli> Luca__: Let me know if you have any issues.
10:24:53 <ixtli> Cryp71c: Hopefully before that I might be able to implement the console version using the wrapper classes.
10:25:11 <ixtli> Cryp71c: it will be huge cleanup, but good for readability in the long run, i think/.
10:27:14 <Zaba> that would be great
10:38:06 <KiloByte> we have #ifdefs in a crapload of places.  Even for things that are simply a no-op in an UI, like the coloured flash (console-only).
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11:07:07 <ixtli> KiloByte: Zaba: One day :)
11:07:15 <ixtli> Perhaps during a break or when I graduate?
11:07:17 <ixtli> xD
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13:30:42 <Luca__> ixtli: trying to do that right now (a console version with USE_TILE), but not sure if it will work decently or if I will finish it
13:46:13 <ixtli> Luca__: You're trying to remove all the hardcoded curses stuff?
13:46:18 <ixtli> Luca__: the #ifdefs?
13:46:30 <Luca__> the idea would be to make a curses version of the TILES code
13:46:40 <Luca__> then all the ifdefs can be removed with the processor
13:46:53 <ixtli> yeah
13:47:02 <Luca__> preprocessor*
13:47:24 <Luca__> but I have no idea whether it will work well or if I will actually manage to produce something working
13:47:29 <ixtli> but one of the main reasons for bothering is to clean the code
13:47:47 <Luca__> also creating a better console version
13:47:51 <ixtli> better that you go through and look at the display
13:47:53 <ixtli> code
13:47:55 <ixtli> right now
13:48:04 <ixtli> and copy it over using the wrappers
13:48:13 <ixtli> that way you don't do more work than is necessary
13:48:16 <ixtli> you learn about crawl
13:48:19 <ixtli> and you clean code
13:48:35 <Luca__> the idea would be to make TileBuffer lookup character/color data for tiles, and output that with ncurses
13:48:39 <ixtli> then improvements, if any, will be obvious.
13:48:44 <ixtli> hehe cool
13:48:44 <ixtli> :)
13:48:46 <Luca__> instead of outputting the graphical tile with opengl
13:49:19 <Luca__> some new ifdefs will likely be needed for things like the unique tags, the HP/MP bar under the player, etc.
13:49:21 <ixtli> I don't really know anything about the ncurses display logic, so I can't really tell you if that's a good idea or not )
13:49:22 <ixtli> :)
13:49:42 <Enne> I'm a little confused.  What does this get you?
13:49:53 <ixtli> Enne: hi! :)
13:50:01 * Enne poofs into existence.
13:50:20 <Luca__> hopefully cleaner code and the ability to define a console mode that maps tiles 1:1
13:50:35 <Luca__> (or at least, less approximately)
13:50:38 <ixtli> Also, which part?  I extolled the virtues of cleaning out ifdefs above :)
13:51:16 <Luca__> some things cannot be done in the console version
13:51:18 <Enne> Cleaning out #ifdefs is certainly one thing.  In particular the beam and viewwindow/X-map paths are pretty messy.
13:51:22 <Enne> Such as?
13:51:25 <Luca__> like showing an hp/mp bar under the player tile
13:51:33 <Luca__> or adding tags over uniques
13:51:45 <Luca__> or having a detailed player doll with weapon icons
13:51:55 <Enne> Right, I certainly follow that.
13:52:12 <Enne> So, what do you mean by "a console mode that maps tiles 1:1"?
13:52:53 <ixtli> holy god its 4am
13:53:01 <ixtli> ill read the rest of this when i get up in ... 5 hours
13:53:02 <ixtli> sigh.
13:53:11 * ixtli poofs out of existence.
13:53:14 <Enne> Get some sleep, ixtli.  :)
13:53:21 <Luca__> something that uses special unicode characters, combining unicode characters (accents, dots above, etc.) and 256 color mode
13:53:46 <Luca__> so that ideally each tile is represented differently in the console too
13:54:46 <Enne> It sounds interesting, but I'll admit that I'm a little doubtful that it would provide much extra information.
13:55:01 <Luca__> but that would be a successive step to replicating the current display
13:55:29 <Enne> "Ok, is that &eacute; or &egrave; that means a weapon? And, which shade of red in particular means what?"
13:56:00 <Luca__> well, at least it would be perfectly parsable for a tiles client
13:56:37 <Enne> I still don't like that particular route.
13:56:49 <Luca__> my idea would be e.g. to use the background to represent water/lava/etc. and use combining diacritics for sleeping/stabbable/etc.
13:57:01 <Enne> Using characters as an intermediary is an extremely awkward packing mechanism.
13:57:20 <Enne> "Why not just send the information that you want and let the viewer interpret that directly?"
13:57:39 <Enne> If I were to give unsolicited advice, I would say rewrite the viewwindow routine.
13:57:45 <Luca__> that's surely a good goal
13:58:03 <Luca__> but console-over-tiles would be needed for the tiles client anyway
13:58:24 <Enne> What do you mean by console-over-tiles?
13:58:27 <Luca__> so I suppose one can first write that and then split the code
13:58:38 <Luca__> something converting from tiles to a terminal view
13:58:53 <Luca__> assuming the information passed are tile numbers
13:59:04 <Enne> See, also awkward to convert.
13:59:40 <Luca__> so you suggest passing the underlying structures on the wire instead?
13:59:55 <Enne> Long-term, absolutely.
14:00:21 <Enne> viewwindow can pack a per-cell data-structure that says what's there.  Items, monsters, clouds, etc...
14:00:46 <Enne> Then the client, whether that's tiles, console-on-tiles, just console, console-with-unicode, can interpret that in any way it sees fit.
14:01:08 <Luca__> well, (multiple stacked) tile numbers do almost exactly that
14:01:27 <by> that would be mostly a generalised show_def, without the ugly colour member, and with information needed for tiles rendering
14:01:31 <Enne> This is useful, regardless of whether it's client/server or just single player, just in terms of making the view of the Crawl world more generalized.
14:02:27 <Enne> Packing and unpacking via tile numbers is just as awkward as doing it through unicode, in my opinion.
14:02:46 <Enne> Tile numbers is even worse, because now we have to be backwards compatible when anybody bumps tile numbers around.
14:02:54 <Enne> ...or client/server have to be in version lockstep.
14:03:07 <Luca__> well, never redefine existing tile numbers
14:03:20 <Luca__> (i.e. add at an end, leave gaps for removed tiles)
14:03:59 <Enne> There's still potential for failure because there's a human in the loop.  And, if you're going to send arbitrary data, why not just send the raw stuff, rather than doing the tile lookup on the server?
14:06:36 <Enne> (Sorry if my tone is harsh here.  I'm not intending it to be.)
14:07:49 <Enne> (I think I'm just frustrated at where the tiles code is today and I'd like to move towards something more general and flexible that doesn't have tiles knowledged baked into it everywhere.)
14:09:04 <Luca__> what if there were _only_ tiles knowledge everywhere?
14:09:33 <Luca__> separating it at a lower level looks more sensible but also significantly harder
14:09:44 <Luca__> and shouldn't the console version be improved too anyway?
14:09:59 <Luca__> problems:
14:10:02 <by> the console version is being improved constantly,w hat do you mean?
14:10:16 <Luca__> - altars use varying color, instead of a single unambiguous symbol/color per god
14:10:36 <Luca__> - traps are colored only by type (magical, mechanical, etc.): you can't tell a zot trap from a teleportation trap
14:11:00 <by> you can map different features to different symbols already, that doesn't require tiles
14:11:00 <Luca__> - item colors are assigned in a bizarre way that makes unique equipment have the same color of normal equipment
14:11:27 <Luca__> etc.
14:11:56 <casmith789> Luca__: can I have an example of point iii)?
14:11:59 <by> the issues you mention just seem to be problems for your approach to network tiles
14:12:10 <Luca__> e.g. boris robe is darkgrey like helmets
14:12:19 <casmith789> ah
14:12:34 <Luca__> by: yes it especially hurts there
14:12:38 <by> that is certainly not a limitation of console mode, but a design choice, perhaps questionable
14:13:00 <Luca__> also you can't tell whether an object is over water or not
14:13:05 <Luca__> (or a monster)
14:13:28 <Luca__> but indeed I'm not sure whether it is best to use tiles as an intermediate representation or not
14:13:47 <by> all of these things could be addressed within the console/general code
14:13:59 <Enne> I think we can all agree that converting from Crawl internal structure to the console display loses information.  Whether that's confusing to the user is ultimately just a console UI issue.
14:14:16 <by> yes
14:14:18 <Enne> I would argue that using tiles as an intermediate representation also loses information.
14:15:37 <Luca__> well, it is generally richer and I think rich enough to not cause lost information in a console view
14:17:40 <Luca__> but anyway, I'd say that creating a protocol at the "semantic" level is really a lot of work
14:17:59 <Enne> More than sending a stack of tiles?
14:18:05 <Luca__> well yes
14:18:14 <Enne> I strongly disagree.
14:18:15 <Luca__> I think
14:19:06 <Luca__> esp. if it is _really_ at the semantic level
14:19:20 <Luca__> i.e. where the client does stuff like targeting
14:19:41 <Luca__> no?
14:19:49 <Enne> So, ignore the targeting bit.  Assume that's just UI and we're talking about "what is the current view of the dungeon".
14:20:42 <Enne> viewwindow (and its legion of helper functions) already does this baking step of figuring out what's visible in each cell.
14:20:53 <Luca__> I think passing a semantic dungeon view would be essentially equivalent to passing tiles
14:21:06 <Luca__> just with different numbers, i.e. TILEP_MONS_xxx instead of MONS_xxx
14:21:23 <Enne> But skip the lookup.
14:21:32 <Enne> Why turn MONS_xxx into TILEP_MONS_xxx?
14:21:59 <Luca__> but viewwindow produces tiles
14:22:16 <Enne> ...and it shouldn't.
14:22:18 <Luca__> you could get it to produce another format
14:22:44 <Luca__> anyway, the real problem here is that it does not really produce tiles
14:22:52 <Luca__> it only produces an fg/bg tile pair
14:23:07 <Enne> Consider that just a packing mechanism.
14:23:11 <Luca__> and code afterwards fixes that up (by looking at internal structures!) to produce the real tiles stack
14:23:23 <Enne> That parenthetical is also gross, and not something I like.
14:23:29 <Luca__> yes
14:23:40 <Luca__> that should be definitely fixed
14:23:58 <Enne> If you wanted to fix that up, I would happily commit any of that cleanup.
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14:24:02 <Luca__> it's also somewhat of an internal problem too
14:24:12 <Luca__> i.e. crawl can have special floors, but only if there are no upstairs
14:24:20 <Luca__> if there are upstairs, you can only have the default floor
14:24:40 <Luca__> unless perhaps you specify a custom tile
14:26:00 <Enne> At any rate, you're going to have to write some new code, yeah?
14:26:02 <Enne> I would rather rewrite viewwindow to bake out a "here's what's visible" intermediate structure that could be interpreted for console, tiles, or some other crazy new way to play Crawl than I would to rewrite (and maintain) a duplicate set of reverse tileidx functions.
14:26:23 <Luca__> you don't need reverse tileidx
14:26:36 <Luca__> you only need to specify console attributes in addition to an image per tile
14:27:20 <Enne> So you're arguing that you'd merge the two viewwindow paths for console and tiles together.
14:27:23 <Luca__> that is, remove the console look from mon-data.h and put it in files like the tile definitions
14:27:36 <Luca__> well, I'm not really sure what is the best thing
14:27:46 <Luca__> the tentative idea is to remove the console path completely
14:27:55 <Luca__> and add another console path based on tiles
14:28:22 <Luca__> that would do e.g. TILEP_MONS_LICH -> 'L', LIGHTGREY
14:29:47 <Enne> I'm not still not convinced that's a good dependency.
14:29:48 <Luca__> another thing, the current code doesn't mention the mouse in the help in the console version
14:29:56 <Luca__> but you can use the mouse in the terminal too
14:30:10 <Luca__> (not sure if crawl implements that, but it's possible)
14:30:20 <Luca__> I'm not totally convinced either
14:32:19 <Enne> Right now, there's not a 1-1 mapping of tiles or items to monsters.  It's quite possible to re-use the same tile for multiple things.
14:32:33 <Enne> In the same way that the same character/color combination is used for the same thing in the console version.
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14:34:30 <Enne> The mouse seems like an orthogonal issue to me.  You could certainly add better mouse support for the console version or attempt to unite the two, but I don't think that affects the display routine here.
14:35:12 <Enne> What if the console version wants to use a different color for two branches, but the tiles version reuses the same wall tiles?
14:35:54 <Luca__> why would that be desirable?
14:36:04 <Luca__> as opposed to at least using recolored wall tiles?
14:36:10 <Luca__> (which already exist, btw)
14:36:18 <Enne> Maybe it looks better?
14:36:32 <Luca__> but indeed there is a lot of difference in wall colors
14:36:47 <Luca__> e.g. the abyss and pan colors are generated _completely_ differently between console and tiles
14:36:53 <Enne> Exactly.
14:37:01 <Enne> I don't want to tie the variation of the console version to the amount of art in the tiles version.
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14:37:34 <Luca__> hmm
14:37:46 <Luca__> but what if you want the same game to be viewable from both console and tiles?
14:37:55 <Luca__> then you do need a mapping, even if it is implicit
14:38:40 <Enne> Yes, but that mapping should come from Crawl's internals.
14:38:43 <Luca__> I think one should generate the underlying object and find a representation for it, as opposed to directly choosing a random representation between those available
14:38:44 <Enne> As it already does.
14:38:58 <Luca__> aka choosing a random color in console and a random tile type in tiles
14:39:43 <Luca__> ?
14:40:04 <Luca__> afaik the abyss is either generating by picking a random tile between 6 or picking a random color
14:40:09 <Luca__> there is no mapping between them at all
14:40:21 <Enne> I'm talking in a general sense.
14:40:50 <Luca__> for pan, tiles chooses between two floor tiles, console chooses between any floor color
14:41:14 <Luca__> this does have some sense though
14:41:27 <Luca__> but breaks once you want to watch the same game in both console and tiles
14:41:50 <by> what breaks?
14:41:53 <Enne> So just let it pick a random seed, and let the tiles and console view sort it out.
14:42:05 <Enne> Rather than picking a color or tile which may not have a coherent mapping between each other.
14:42:24 <Enne> In the case of randomness, there's no need to have a 1-1 mapping from tiles to console.  It's just there for variation.
14:42:33 <Luca__> yes this works
14:43:03 <Luca__> although it seems more realistic to generate a concrete definition, map 1:1 to tiles, and map as well as possible to console
14:44:10 <Luca__> but maybe the random seed works and looks better...
14:45:51 <Enne> I think it's better for each view to add randomness if it wants to.
14:46:23 <Enne> ...or in whatever way it can best handle it.
14:46:26 <Enne> Such as tiles adding variations.
14:48:03 <Enne> Or, I've seen some console roguelikes add slight color variations (when using 24-bit color).
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14:48:31 <Enne> These visual-only touches aren't really part of the representation, and it just adds more work to translate post-hoc to another format.
14:53:36 <Luca__> well, I'd say an intermediate representation is a good idea
14:53:59 <Luca__> however, given that, does it make sense to keep the view code as is, or pretend the console is just another tiles backend?
14:54:27 <Luca__> that is, use regions and all the tiles gui system
14:56:13 <Luca__> (console is mostly equivalent to having a 32x32 monospace font, 32x32 pseudo-tiles mapped to chars, and no other graphical capability)
14:58:28 <Luca__> I think this would simplify the code, even though it is a somewhat unusual approach
14:58:42 <Enne> I'm having a hard time picturing how this could work.
14:59:01 <Enne> In general, I think it's orthogonal to any client/server issues.
14:59:06 <Luca__> yes
14:59:11 <Enne> I could see the region code getting generalized to both console and tiles.
14:59:14 <Enne> Maybe.
14:59:21 <Enne> It'd need a lot of clean-up and it might not be worth it.
14:59:31 <by> it makes sense if you think of the console version as a legacy back-end that will go once everybody can play tiles online
15:00:43 <Enne> In my ideal world, console and tiles players can all play online together, and can watch each other's games happily using whatever viewer they'd like.
15:00:47 <Enne> There will also be rainbows.
15:00:49 <Enne> And ponies.
15:00:54 <Luca__> (in theory, there is also the option of not having a console version at all, and perhaps having the option of using ascii for the dungeon in the tiles version)
15:01:22 <Luca__> (after adding a semantic-level protocol for online play)
15:01:33 <Enne> Good luck with that theory.
15:02:07 <Enne> I know there exist console players who only play console because they want to play online.
15:02:23 <Enne> I would guess they are dwarfed in number by the console players who play console because they like it.
15:02:42 <Enne> ...and who would be quite happy to see tiles players join them online, but have no desire to use anything but their console version.
15:02:58 <Enne> Just sayin'.  :)
15:03:19 <Luca__> but do they really want to be able to run it in gnome-terminal/xterm, or would a tiles version using ascii be good enough/better?
15:03:32 <Luca__> e.g. you can have monster health bars below ascii characters, in that case
15:04:02 <Enne> If you want to pursue it, you can ask that question.  I'm pretty sure the answer is that they really want to run it in a terminal.
15:04:33 <KiloByte> Enne: what's wrong with watching a tiles player on the console?  Separating display logic from the model would do just that.
15:04:35 <Luca__> yes I suppose that's the case
15:05:05 <Luca__> yes, the issue is at what level to do that
15:05:06 <Enne> KiloByte: No, no.  That's exactly what I'm suggesting.  :)
15:05:56 <Luca__> 1. parse a rich console version to produce the tiles interface
15:06:11 <Luca__> 2. convert a tiles-like view sent on the wire
15:06:21 <Luca__> 3. display completely semantic information sent on the wire
15:06:55 <KiloByte> some time ago, I thought about making a javascript version... and what I planned was using normal console builds that just let outside processes talk to them
15:07:20 <Luca__> the current console is not good enough to do that perfectly though
15:07:22 <Luca__> (see nettiles)
15:07:55 <KiloByte> 3. would be the best, by far.
15:08:03 <Luca__> e.g. you can't tell what items are precisely, can't tell whether a monster is over water or not, can't tell what altars are, etc.
15:08:05 <Enne> I'd argue that 3 is not much harder than 2.
15:08:48 <Luca__> I'd say 3 done fully is way harder than the rest
15:08:52 <by> clearly 3, and I agree that it's not that much work
15:09:04 <Luca__> e.g. I mean things like '%', 'A', etc. done completely on the client
15:09:20 <by> you don't need to do it completely right away
15:09:47 <Luca__> yes, then it becomes essentially option (2) evolving later to option (3)
15:10:08 <by> how is sending the % output as text essentially 2?
15:10:24 <Luca__> that's exactly like option 2
15:10:48 <Luca__> it's purely crt region output
15:11:02 <Luca__> so either you send it semantically or as text
15:11:05 <by> there's nothing "tiles-like" about sending the % output as text
15:11:19 <Luca__> yes, but that's what option 2 would do
15:16:01 <dpeg> by: I don't think that console will be obsolete once tiles is available online.
15:16:09 <by> neither do I
15:16:15 <dpeg> And I don't think you think that either :)
15:16:39 <syllogism> greensnark has promised to move on to tiles once they are available
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15:20:14 <dpeg> syllogism: and you trust him?
15:30:31 <Eronarn> FWIW, I would love to have "tiles features + console aesthetics".
15:31:08 <Eronarn> Glyphs are much more appealing but console really does have too many historical limitations carried on to modern day
15:31:09 <dpeg> Eronarn: this is mostly a question of having an ASCII tiles set, which will undoubtedly appear, given some time.
15:31:31 <Enne> Hmm.  Maybe I should just do that.
15:31:39 <Enne> "How hard could it be?"
15:32:06 <dpeg> Enne: bbbut you can code! You don't have to saddle yourself with simple stuff like that.
15:32:07 <Eronarn> Enne: regexp it!
15:32:42 <Eronarn> dpeg: Well, I want online play too :)
15:32:56 <dpeg> Eronarn: this is unrelated to the tileset :)
15:33:01 <Eronarn> Also being able to copy+paste stuff without posting screenshots is nice
15:33:40 <Eronarn> dpeg: well, in the long run, yes; but right now, tileset implies tiles implies better-tiles-features and online-play incompatible :P
15:35:11 <dpeg> Has it ever been discussed that the limitations of console yield some genuine advantages (e.g. kraken tentacles)?
15:35:24 <Eronarn> what's advantageous about that, in particular
15:36:55 <dpeg> abstraction
15:37:15 <Eronarn> you mean, say, not having to draw out a ton of kinds of kraken tentacles?
15:37:35 <by> kraken tentacles used to not be restricted to water
15:37:41 <by> that looked bad in tiles, so it was removed
15:39:57 <dpeg> As an example, the mechanics of pool are anachronistic (think Sun vs Rain of Fedhas). A 3d model would clearly exhibit this, in console it's much harder to spot.
15:40:58 <Eronarn> well, that's a top-down view issue, not a console issue ;)
15:41:31 <Luca__> in what sense? because water only stays if the ground is lower?
15:41:38 <Eronarn> funnily enough, had a RL conversation about crawl that discussed both the pool issue + the tiles netplay difficulties a few weeks ago
15:41:38 <dpeg> yes
15:42:00 <Eronarn> person i was speaking to didn't understand why it was so difficult to get tiles online
15:42:14 <Luca__> well, the ability also lowers or raises the dungeon floor :)
15:42:26 <by> it isn't so difficult
15:42:58 <felirx> very laborous to do it properly
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15:43:02 <felirx> not neccessarily hard
15:47:25 <by> with all the talking it's been done, I'm sure a proper remote dungeon viewer could exist already
15:48:01 <Luca__> well, there is one
15:48:15 <Luca__> only problem, it does not rely on a modified server, and the current server is limited
15:48:50 <by> proper in the sense discussed before
15:51:39 <Luca__> thinking of doing it in the perfect (semantic) way immediately might be contributing to that
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15:53:25 <Poor_Yurik> I'm working on tiles.  Is there any key available to identify monster tiles on the player.png so I know what they are named and supposed to be?
15:53:37 <Enne> Poor_Yurik: Are you building tiles yourself?
15:53:47 <Enne> Er, building Crawl.
15:54:21 <Luca__> there are the tile definition files in rltiles/dc-*.txt
15:54:41 <Luca__> these are used together with the pngs in the rltiles directory to build the big tileset png files
15:54:42 <Poor_Yurik> Enne, I am drawing sprites to replace existing tiles.
15:54:59 <by> this isn't thinking about "perfect", but "not wrong"
15:55:35 <Enne> Poor_Yurik: Don't modify player.png directly.  Instead, modify the smaller 32x32 pngs in the rltiles/ directory.
15:56:08 <Enne> Poor_Yurik: If you're building Crawl yourself, after rltiles builds player.png, it'll generate a tile-player.html which has all the tiles together with their names.
15:56:45 <Poor_Yurik> brb phone call
15:57:21 <Luca__> imho a semantic protocol requires a significant refactoring of a lot of the crawl code, and significant modifications to dgamelaunch too
15:57:37 <philsnow> re: what thing to put over the wire to the client, if you go with the third option (some native representation), one thing you might want to think about is making sure that you're not exposing game information to the (untrusted) client that they shouldn't have access to
15:57:40 <Luca__> parsing a good console view is surely way less intrusive
15:57:52 <philsnow> or you'll have people running "wall hack" clients
15:57:59 <Luca__> yes, of course, that's part of what makes it complex
15:58:28 <philsnow> that said, i prefer it strongly out of the three options presented thus far (though i havne't written so much as a line for crawl)
15:58:29 <Luca__> (i.e. you can't use either the current internal representation, nor the currently display representation)
16:00:37 <Enne> viewwindow already handles the "wall hack" problem.
16:01:16 <Luca__> an interesting criteria could be to make a protocol that allows to easily implement a bot
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16:02:23 <Enne> And, any approach other than parsing ascii into tiles is going to require changing the way the Crawl server works.
16:02:48 <Enne> So, if you're going to go do that work, why not send the real information.
16:02:49 <Luca__> also, something that makes a multiplayer game possible too
16:05:14 <Luca__> well, you can continue to parse "ascii" into tiles
16:05:24 <Luca__> just changing the console output so it actually works
16:10:41 <Luca__> also, what about requiring a custom unicode font?
16:10:48 <Luca__> (assuming someone draws it)
16:12:15 <by> Luca__: instead of outputting some unicode symbol, why not output "goblin weapon:club; floor" explicitly?
16:13:03 <by> if the server crawl were to write ascii to stdout and read from stdin, you could even keep it integrated with dgamelaunch
16:14:46 <Luca__> I think dgamelaunch will need to be modified
16:15:00 <Luca__> in particular, you need to be able to ask for either a console or a protocol view
16:15:29 <Luca__> and dgamelaunch must arrange starting the interface (both for the player, and for viewers)
16:15:54 <Luca__> also m
16:15:55 <by> the dgamelaunch instance wouldn't need to be able to handle telnet users
16:16:13 <Luca__> but then you can no longer just play it with putty
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16:27:13 <KiloByte> wtf... just exploring D:7 with teleportitis, and there already are hydras and deep trolls...
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16:28:36 <Luca__> looking more at the tile picking code, I'm getting convinced that tiles are not as good a representation as I thought
16:28:57 <Poor_Yurik> Enne, I wasn't editing the player.png, just using it for reference to see what existing monsters look like
16:29:17 <Enne> Poor_Yurik: Ah, ok.  :)
16:29:19 <Poor_Yurik> I was just going to upload a singular png for each character I made
16:29:28 <Poor_Yurik> on the bug tracker forum
16:29:53 <Poor_Yurik> I don't see the rltiles directory, is it not in the main package?
16:29:55 <Luca__> maybe the minimal change is to modify the console version so it dumps a base64 version of the viewport
16:30:09 <Luca__> and make nettiles work both for console and tiles, and use that as the interface
16:30:16 <Enne> Poor_Yurik: It should be in the source distribution.  It won't be in any of the built versions.
16:30:44 <Poor_Yurik> also I didn't realize the monster tiles was generated, I was sticking with the size constraints of the existing monsters I was replacing, even if they were under 32x32
16:31:35 <Poor_Yurik> I've remade 2 characters so far btw: Eustachio and the shadow
16:31:38 <Cryp71c> dpeg, still here?
16:31:51 <Enne> Poor_Yurik: Yeah, in general, anything can be up to 32x32.  Technically they can be bigger, but you really shouldn't.
16:36:22 <Luca__> but it's quite a mess, really
16:36:49 <Luca__> e.g. the fedhas plant code directly modifies the screen (!) to add plant number indicators
16:38:16 <Enne> So does the beam code.
16:38:26 <Enne> These things can be cleaned up.
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16:40:06 <BlackrayJack> Hey whoever is an op or a hop or whatever in #nethack, someone sent an annoying bot there to harass people
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16:43:58 <Luca__> (that said, I looked at the Crawl 1.x code and the current code is immensely better)
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16:47:07 <dpeg> Cryp71c: yes!
16:48:35 <Cryp71c> dpeg, I have a basic rewrite of DG done, am about to add tension onto it before I commit. Spawns a temporary guardian at a tension level which scales with mutation level (higher mutation level needs higher tension to spawn) and uses a one in 5-mutation level chance.
16:51:33 <Cryp71c> by, do you know off hand why get_tension asserts if god is GOD_NO_GOD ? It should just ignore the god-specific code if its GOD_NO_GOD
16:52:15 <Enne> Luca__: If you wanted to try to refactor parts of the console code that drew directly to the screen or parts of the tiles code that looked up Crawl internals when it shouldn't, I'd certainly be happy to commit any of that work.  :)
16:54:17 <by> Cryp71c: no idea, probably it was only ever used with gods up to now
16:54:45 <Cryp71c> by, its in religion.cc, I'm going to change it to allow GOD_NO_GOD, you think I aught to move it?
16:55:22 <by> Cryp71c: I wouldn't bother
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17:01:14 <KiloByte> Cryp71c: being in religion.cc is merely a remnant of its origin as a part of Xom's implementation
17:03:06 <Cryp71c> KiloByte, I figured as much.
17:03:27 <Cryp71c> I may move it into player class at some point, since its implementation pertains directly to the player
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17:08:45 <dpeg> !tell Cryp71c Sorry, work called again. I have no idea about the internals of tension. A private mail to Johanna might help. Your numbers look okay. Does the DG disappear at low tension again?
17:08:46 <Henzell> dpeg: OK, I'll let Cryp71c know.
17:13:15 <Luca__> a possible plan seems to be to overhaul show_type so that a tiles/console view can be constructed from it
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17:18:01 <Luca__> or maybe make it the console version view data, and introduce something in betwee
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17:22:43 <Enne> Eronarn: Re: "tiles features + console aesthetics".  Would you want the inventory to be ascii as well?
17:24:19 <dpeg> Enne: you didn't ask me, but I'd say yes.
17:24:40 <dpeg> not sure if it's really worth it, though -- there is console, after all
17:25:18 <CIA-39> 03kilobyte * r5b446e0b9494 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/builder/uniques.des: Increase Polyphemus' weight, let's give him a chance to spawn.
17:25:24 <CIA-39> 03kilobyte * rb5c7c5efac0a 10/crawl-ref/source/item_use.cc: Fix dispersal ignoring stasis/-TELE.
17:25:56 <Enne> It might not be.  I'm (thankfully) between jobs at the moment, so I have a little bit of free time these days.
17:26:10 <Enne> It seems like something that might only be 1-2 days of work?
17:26:24 <Enne> I know it's been asked about before by a number of different folks.
17:27:52 <dpeg> Enne: yes, I guess that a starting tileset of letters will at the very least encourage folks to come up with derivatives (that happened in NH and DF circles).
17:28:03 <due> Free time, hooray!
17:28:16 <dpeg> due: yay
17:28:16 <Enne> I wasn't actually going to make a tileset.  ;)
17:28:24 <dpeg> Enne: ah :)
17:28:27 <Enne> I was just going to render the display with a monospace font.
17:28:32 <Enne> *innocent*
17:28:39 <dpeg> I see.
17:28:47 <dpeg> Ennecent :)
17:28:52 <Enne> :P
17:29:41 <Eronarn> Enne: Personally, what I would want is more glyphs to be used. Possibly more colors. And then use glyphs for inventory.
17:29:55 <Eronarn> I am not sure that exactly-as-console inventory using glyphs would be useful at all
17:30:39 <Enne> I think I was picturing glyphs with brands and number of charges over top.
17:31:38 <Enne> What do you mean by "more glyphs"?
17:31:55 <Enne> Are you picturing the same thing dpeg mentioned, with stylized glyphs?
17:32:02 <due> I don't have free time at the minute.
17:32:17 <Enne> "There's always time for IRC."
17:33:08 <dpeg> Enne: ah, sure. The functionality of tiles should be kept, of course.
17:33:26 <dpeg> all the additional information
17:33:43 <Enne> Yes--HP bars, status effects, etc...
17:34:03 <dpeg> yes, exactly
17:34:56 <due> Enne: Of course. :)
17:35:03 <due> Enne: I can multitask: read email while IRCing.
17:35:06 <due> And delay breakfast.
17:40:19 <Eronarn> Enne: I mean more glyphs than is default for console. Like how DF uses yen symbols for lobsters :)
17:41:10 <Eronarn> Might not help inventory issues that much, though...
17:41:22 <Enne> Hmm, so really a different tileset.
17:41:35 <KiloByte> there's no single platform we do that has no Unicode support
17:41:45 <Enne> Ooh, good point.
17:41:55 <Enne> So, extend the console version to unicode, but then just draw a font natively for tiles.
17:42:08 <KiloByte> and those who use CP437 because someone in the past told them to do so can be handled by \e%G
17:42:20 <Enne> Although tiles fonts just handle 7-bit ascii, so that'd have to change too.
17:42:23 <dpeg> Enne: shouldn't there be (free monospace letter) fonts around, ready for use?
17:43:48 <Eronarn> always!
17:43:58 <Enne> We already use one.
17:44:41 <dpeg> Enne: I see. So this is not at all about drawing.
17:44:56 <Enne> I don't know enough about the console version to know how it'd handle unicode characters.
17:46:36 <Enne> (Maybe it already can?)
17:47:39 <Eronarn> *
17:47:39 <Eronarn> Many people instead prefer a second pretty character set, Unicode. To use Unicode characters:
17:47:42 <Eronarn> * In your Crawl options on the server, add the following line: char_set = unicode * In PuTTY, set Window > Translation > Received data assumed to be in which character set to UTF-8
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18:18:58 <Textmode> morning all
18:29:58 <BlackrayJack> \command Textmode: Setmode: olde english
18:31:09 <Textmode> Goode day to thee
18:37:52 <BlackrayJack> Excellent!
18:37:53 <Poor_Yurik> hm.  cam
18:37:59 <due> ...
18:38:00 <Poor_Yurik> er, can't find the corpse tiles
18:38:01 <BlackrayJack> Hail, sir Textmode. Wither thou goest this day?
18:38:07 * due shoots both BlackrayJack and Textmode.
18:38:15 <due> That's not fucking Old English.
18:38:26 <BlackrayJack> Verily, 'tis close enough!
18:38:29 <due> And it's "Wither goest thou".
18:38:32 <BlackrayJack> Dost thou not agree, sir Textmode?
18:38:46 <due> What you're mimicking is a mutilated late Middle English dialect.
18:39:20 <BlackrayJack> Young sir, verily thou doth not protesteth our flavoring of the room with our changed modicum?
18:39:51 <due> "protesteth"?
18:39:58 <BlackrayJack> Aye
18:40:09 <BlackrayJack> Uh oh
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18:40:12 <Textmode> lol
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18:40:27 <BlackrayJack> I'll stop now
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18:40:36 <BlackrayJack> \Textmode:Setmode:Normal english
18:40:39 <Textmode> A victory for englishmen everywhere...or something.
18:41:14 <due> Anyway, proper Old english: Hwaet! We Gardena in geardagum, theocyninga, thrym gefrunon, hu dha aethelingas ellen fremedon.
18:41:36 <BlackrayJack> Okay I think that's going a bit deep into old english
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18:42:04 <due> It's the first line of Beowulf.
18:43:05 <Enne> Poor_Yurik: The corpse tiles are automatically generated.
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19:01:09 <philsnow> "whither", fwiw.  "wither" means something else
19:16:07 <Poor_Yurik> Enne...woah didn't realize that.  thanks.
19:16:37 <Enne> Poor_Yurik: If you didn't realize it, then maybe the algorithm is doing a pretty good job.  :)
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19:18:01 <Poor_Yurik> haha, i'd say so
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19:30:04 * Poor_Yurik waves a magic wand and makes all the tiles 64x64 :D
19:31:16 <philsnow> heh 1x1 -> 2x2 aaaand done
19:31:17 <philsnow> ;)
19:31:50 <pointless_> Can someone update cdo trunk please?
19:32:06 <Enne> I'd love to see somebody add the option to apply hq2x to tiles at load-time to get the option of 64x64 tiles.
20:02:53 <Poor_Yurik> so if you just put numbers after a sprites name, say 1 through 4, it will automatically go to the next frame per turn?
20:03:32 <Poor_Yurik> looking at the guardian statue sprite and its 8 sprites, 4 for eyes closed, 4 for eyes open
20:04:27 <Enne> All the animations are specially coded.
20:04:54 <Enne> At this point, there's no way to specify from the tile definitions themselves how (or if) something should be animated.
20:08:24 <Poor_Yurik> Ah ok
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20:10:10 <Poor_Yurik> Enne, do you have any tile in particular you'd like to see redone?
20:10:12 <Poor_Yurik> character tile
20:10:25 <Poor_Yurik> I'm trying to decide what I want to do for my 4th one
20:10:41 <Enne> Offhand, no.  I'd have to think about it.  :)
20:10:46 <Enne> You might want to ping jpeg.
20:11:38 <Poor_Yurik> eh?
20:14:01 <Enne> jpeg might have some suggestions about what needs touching up.
20:14:14 <Poor_Yurik> Ah ok, is he the main tile artist?
20:15:38 <KiloByte> she
20:15:40 <Enne> No, she just works on tiles quite a bit.
20:16:32 <Enne> I'm not sure there really is a "main tile artist" per se? There's Denzi, but Denzi kind of comes in and out, and is sometimes a little tough to communicate with across the language barrier.
20:16:57 <Poor_Yurik> Yeah just noticed a post by denzi on the forum, he's very good.
20:17:16 <Enne> Denzi has probably drawn the majority of the tiles.
20:17:41 <Poor_Yurik> Impressive.
20:17:53 <KiloByte> we don't have any tiles at all for: dwarf (non-poly in 0.6, polymorph allowed in 0.7), hyperactive ballistomycete, spriggan, spriggan druid, perhaps other planned spriggans too
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20:18:30 <Poor_Yurik> Any place I can read more about them?
20:18:39 <ogaz> the wiki
20:18:53 <Poor_Yurik> ok
20:19:06 <KiloByte> https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:monster:spriggans
20:20:40 <KiloByte> among spriggans, only the base, druid and possibly the Enchantress are planned for 0.7
20:21:30 <KiloByte> if she gets in, she'll need a tile for her outfit too ("faerie dragon armour")
20:23:36 <Poor_Yurik> Awesome, thanks for the info.  I'll put some time into a spriggan, see if I come up with anything cool.
20:23:37 <KiloByte> dwarves currently may only be the result of a polymorph, but the current plan for changes to player MDs/DDs will most likely require them to appear as monsters too
20:24:08 <Poor_Yurik> So just to be sure, Spriggans: small, half person/half tree
20:25:16 <Poor_Yurik> i'd love to make some dwarves too, hm.
20:25:31 <Poor_Yurik> So the polymorph dwarf I'm guessing is just an unarmed one with no armor?
20:28:32 <KiloByte> "tree"?
20:29:24 <KiloByte> if dwarves spawn normally, they have armour
20:29:37 <Poor_Yurik> Haha, every spriggan i've seen in other games has been leafy
20:29:46 <KiloByte> and tend to go overboard with the amount of it
20:30:09 <Iainuki> Was Denzi the creator of the original tiles?
20:30:43 <KiloByte> eh?  All depictions of spriggans I've seen have them look like a kind of goblins/boggarts.
20:30:48 <Enne> The original tiles came from here: http://rltiles.sourceforge.net/
20:31:02 <Enne> In conversations I've had with Mitsuhiro Itakura, I got the impression that Denzi had drawn most of them?
20:31:06 <Enne> I'm not 100% on this.
20:31:07 * Iainuki nods.
20:31:12 <Iainuki> (Just curious.)
20:31:38 <Enne> It is hilarious to compare the rltiles monster page (http://rltiles.sourceforge.net/dc-mon.html) to the current monster page of Crawl.
20:31:43 <Enne> Monster inflation, for sure.
20:32:01 <Iainuki> :)
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20:33:58 <Poor_Yurik> I just read the dev page about tile creation, and I still don't understand how to setup a monster to be able to wield a weapon
20:34:39 <Poor_Yurik> oh wait, I'm guessing they always generate at the same place on a tile.
20:34:54 <Poor_Yurik> i'll just drag a weapon onto an existing monster and see the coords of it
20:34:54 <Enne> There's also an offset applied in the code itself.  Per-monster.
20:35:03 <Poor_Yurik> oh, interesting.
20:35:09 <Enne> Usually like +/- 4.
20:35:15 <Enne> For each coord.
20:35:48 <Enne> If you're using a paint program that lets you use layers, then just open the weapon in a separate layer over the monster.
20:38:12 <Poor_Yurik> yeah, using photoshop
20:39:17 <Poor_Yurik> You guys have been a huge help, hopefully my tiles will make it worth it :)
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21:19:26 <Ashenzari> demonspawn mutations antenna and passive magic mapping should be mutually exclusive (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1614) by fineX
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