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09:27:45 I've looked at a few functions, and it seems the case. 09:28:10 Doesn't make a lot of sense to me, though. 09:29:14 Why not? 09:29:28 they get in the way of your arms 09:30:11 I'd suspect that even underwear can reduce your performance, especially if it's not exactly your size (as most stuff found in the dungeon will be). 09:30:15 dpeg_: just because the delay is new, I'm still used to thinking of robes and leather as light armour 09:30:25 LordSloth: sure 09:30:34 And so the ultimate stab style is nude? 09:30:41 This shouldn't be decided by looking at realism, of course. 09:31:04 At least with quickblades 09:32:31 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 09:33:04 LordSloth: how do robes slow down attack speed? 09:34:05 I thought only the evasion penalty was involved, which is 0 for robes and animal skins 09:34:18 Morning 09:35:03 dpeg, interesting discussion going on about gift-givers gift timeouts (specifically including nemelex and oka, but it applies to all gift givers). Mantis issue 1568 09:35:55 Hmmm, that function looks different than what I was looking at earlier 09:36:41 Cryp71c: yes, I saw. Will reply. 09:37:18 by: I'm trying to triple check my conclusion, but apparently I've managed to make notepad++ crash... 09:37:59 dpeg_, so is this your new paradigm? Keeping yourself logged in but also keeping an alias logged in :P 09:39:07 LordSloth: in wizard mode, you can hit @ to see effective attack speed, so you can compare with and without robe, etc 09:39:50 by: I thought from a changelog comment that didn't display random factors, i'll try it out 09:41:09 Oh, is that trunk wizard only as well? 09:42:19 it's not in 0.6, and it's just text outside wizard mode, if that's what you mean? 09:42:58 by: It's possible that the attack speed entry is wrong, and mislead me as well 09:43:29 ??attack speed 09:43:29 attack delay[1/4]: Attack delay is 10 time units for a weapon with base speed 100%. Every 2 levels of weapon skill lower the delay by 1 unit. 09:43:32 I think I was wrong 09:44:08 -!- ais523 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:44:24 That said, int melee_attack::player_unarmed_speed() means any unarmed attack can take a full turn? 09:44:27 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 09:44:30 Regardless of armoru 09:47:22 the formulas are awful 09:47:43 Okay, it looks like I was wrong, I'm 25% more sure than my earlier assumption 09:47:46 by: are they new or old? 09:47:56 Hardly certain, though 09:48:29 dpeg_: the unarmed speed formula is old I believe 09:48:47 but the new weapon delay formulas are similarly awful 09:48:49 Ah, i see! 09:48:50 -!- Vandal has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:49:08 Crawl.Develz.org/info isn't up to date with the learndb with this particular entry 09:49:19 That explains half of my confusion 09:49:27 ??attack_delay[4] 09:49:27 attack delay[4/4]: In 0.6 armour gives two different speed penalties. Weapon base delay is capped by 1d10 + 1d{aevp} (1d10 + 2d{aevp} for Unarmed). The final delay before applying Haste is increased by the minimum of two 1d{aevp} rolls (1d{aevp} + 1d{asp} for 1.5-handed with shield). 09:49:47 LordSloth: I think player_unarmed_speed is not random in a robe 09:50:06 That said, I'm not sure I see that 1d10 in the functions... 09:50:10 except for unarmed 09:50:47 ou.time_taken = 09:50:47 std::max(2, div_rand_round(you.time_taken * final_attack_delay, 10)); 09:50:56 Unless that is the 1d10 part 09:51:12 That's in player_apply_attack_delay 09:51:22 fight.cc:4007 09:51:34 In 0.6, i'm looking at 4047 09:51:40 I'll look at 4007 09:51:48 I'm looking at master 09:51:57 Ah, time to git 09:51:58 ??git 09:51:58 git[1/2]: git clone git://crawl-ref.git.sourceforge.net/gitroot/crawl-ref/crawl-ref 09:52:03 !source melee_attack::player_weapon_speed 09:52:08 Lines pasted to http://paste.scsys.co.uk/43672 09:52:45 LordSloth: there's a 1d10 near the start 09:53:14 cryptic has reading comprehension problems 09:53:22 if (player_body_armour_penalty) 09:53:36 That would exclude robes, correct, and steam dragon, but not leather 09:53:52 Unless there was sufficent armour skill to negate leather's penalty 09:53:52 Cryp71c: your comments regarding okawaru in the nemelex thread make no sense in this context 09:54:02 Which should be possible with rounding down, easily 09:54:08 Maybe even for ring as well? 09:54:17 you aren't "gaming" anything by "waiting" x turns after each okawaru gift 09:54:28 it's called playing normally 09:56:13 syllogism, intentionally breaking the gift timeout system by waiting for timeout ending is the core issue with nemelex, its only exacerbated by the fact that drawing from decks are piety events. The core issue is the same across all gift-giving gods. 09:56:46 no, the core issue is a combination of those 09:56:56 as a mummy you can sit in temple and receive decks indefinitely 09:57:08 none of the other gods have this issue 09:57:13 syllogism, this all being aside, this wasn't even being discussed in here. I mentioned a mantis issue for dpeg to take a look at, you blowing this up in here and trying to insult other developers for "lack of reading comprehension" is immature, unnecessary, and quite silly. 09:57:32 Okay, so the learndb is just slightly off. 09:57:40 -!- hotsun_ has joined ##crawl-dev 09:58:28 syllogism, quite frankly, I don't have time to argue about whether the mantis report should just stay confined to the issues with 1 god when you could just as easily discuss similar issues with all gift-giving gods and fix them in 1 fell swoop. 09:59:01 Demonspawn hellfire mutation description (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1572) by Kalir 09:59:51 timeout in terms of actual time is inherently exploitable so long as there isn't a strong enough clock to force people forwards, because people can just wait; it seems that early Crawl tried (and possibly failed) to put players on a clock to try to make it work 10:00:14 you specifically suggested other gods have the same issue, hence the disagreement 10:01:24 this is more akin to b26 sif book farming as a mummy 10:03:43 I'm pondering if I should farm my demonspawn to even more obscenity or just ascend it and play something new 10:03:58 felirx: how many runes? 10:04:04 amybe 20 10:04:18 felirx: is it fun? 10:04:22 felirx: did you abuse something in particular? 10:04:41 @dump 10:04:42 http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/felirx/felirx.txt 10:04:48 no time :) 10:04:48 I think that should explain everything 10:04:56 it's an ubernaga on steroids 10:04:57 felirx: mutation set? 10:05:04 ah, Che 10:05:18 antennae 3, cold resistance 1, conserve potions, speed 3, magic resistance 10:05:19 3, passive freeze, regeneration 3, AC +9 10:05:33 ah, the speed 3 issue :) 10:05:38 I tried rolling even crazier mutation sets with alter self but was unsuccesfull 10:05:56 I would be delay 6 without the mutation though 10:06:01 with running boots+fly+swift 10:07:08 -!- Vandal has joined ##crawl-dev 10:07:25 LordSloth: if the weapon speed calculations in master are to be trusted, anything up to ring mail has no effect with high enough armour skill 10:08:42 does AC softcap or hardcap at some point? 10:08:54 neither 10:17:31 dpeg, what's the word on a glow-based race? I have some mut ideas by Kyrris that are glow-based, but would overlapp with this future race, if its being taken into serious consideration. 10:18:00 LordSloth: which is correct, since it calculates aevp as base_penalty * (45-sk_armour) / 45, so from armour skill 23 it rounds to 0 10:18:09 (for ring mail) 10:21:13 -!- hotsun_ has quit [Quit: Page closed] 10:21:41 Cryp71c: are there descriptions of the mutations and the racE? 10:22:31 dpeg, I hadn't ever looked for descriptions of the race, I only remember it being discussed in passing here in IRC quite a long while ago. As for the descriptions, yes..I can paste the conversation with Kyrris to you in PM (its several lines) 10:22:57 please do 10:24:21 by: those are my final conclusions as well 10:24:36 And that leather armour is really easy to eliminate the penalty for. 10:24:50 23 skill, for -2 base ev penatly 10:25:10 And my reading compehension fails 10:25:24 You need Armour 23 to get rid off the leather armour penalty? 10:25:41 23 for a -2 base evp, leather only has -1 10:25:49 ah 10:25:55 Should only need one armour to get that to truncate, maybe 10:28:04 LordSloth: yes, looks like it 10:28:32 Thanks for the consult 10:28:33 by: if you're unhappy with any of these formulas, tell us. 10:28:37 probably the fight.cc calculations should use a larger "scale" parameter than 1 10:29:58 dpeg: I would prefer if player_calc_attack_delay() were constant 10:30:12 what does it currently depend on? 10:30:21 i.e., with given weapon, armour and skills, attack delay didn't vary 10:30:36 ah, it's still random after that 10:30:41 +1 10:30:57 it used to be constant, didn't it? 10:31:07 with weapon, yes 10:31:16 unarmed, not recently 10:31:37 Is it still constant with weapon? 10:31:45 no 10:31:54 remember when we were calculating expected values? 10:31:59 that was weapon delay 10:31:59 yes 10:32:07 When was that changed, and why? 10:32:38 the formulas are so complicated that I ended up writing finite random variable arithmetic to get at effective weapon speed 10:33:06 by: so you made them random? 10:33:14 no? 10:33:16 I think delay is introduced in body armour and shields (hands_half) 10:33:23 random delay, i mean 10:33:37 the ev/aevp overhaul introduced the random factors 10:33:52 by: from what I've seen right now, the delay used to be deterministic (with weapons) but isn't anymore. 10:33:57 syllogism: ah 10:34:13 I thought you had a look at those formulas :) 10:34:19 I forget... 10:34:35 git show 29850c7c4740a6 10:34:36 there were so many formulas it was easy to overlook 10:34:49 and the focus was on EV 10:34:50 ...this is really bad: I look at formulas (sometimes they're my own) and I understand them; and I examine them over here. And then I forget. 10:34:53 look for "New combat penalties" 10:35:14 Hmmm.. is aevp actually applied twice? 10:36:17 body armour penalty is appleid in player_weapon speed, and player_apply_attack_delay 10:36:36 by: would simply using the mean values (instead of the rolls) be feasible? 10:37:19 int attack delay = weapon ?player_weapon_speed - so it takes the penalty from body armour there 10:37:44 and then it randomly adds the average of aevp again? 10:37:47 it would be straightforward (call .expected() instead of .roll() on the random variable) 10:37:54 but it would also be really ugly 10:38:02 yes 10:38:15 by: with feasible I meant for design/balance, not code :) 10:38:44 Seems awkward to apply it twice in two functions... 10:39:07 I think that change wouldn't significantly change balance at all 10:39:32 by: ok 10:39:37 what were the penalties before the recent changes? I recall them being completely insignificant 10:39:45 you can get an idea by looking at the weapon speed display with different armours 10:40:24 syllogism: iirc, one of the points was to make them relevant. 10:40:38 oh, didn't see it discussed 10:40:50 as an example, a starting fighter would get a constant 214% attack speed in GDA instead of an average 214% attack speed with 450% max 10:41:19 -!- ogaz has joined ##crawl-dev 10:41:20 by: I agree that randomising the delays may be too indirect. 10:41:54 at high skills, it would mean that you could get guaranteed sub-full-turn attacks in really heavy armour, whereas right now, it can occasionally spike to 130% or so 10:42:21 but I don't think it really matters much -- the variance only rarely kills people 10:42:22 personally i think you should be able to eliminate it completely in any armour, at least for now 10:42:34 I also think that having the player body armour penalty applied twice in one calculation, but through two different functions could make balancing or changes a headache, if I understand the flow right 10:42:41 my point is that randomising everything is probably no good 10:43:02 for example, if you can never guarantee hits (because of randomisation), you can lose a turn right there occasionally 10:43:29 I don't think we should change the penalties for now, but getting rid of some randomness would be nice 10:43:38 by: so what I am saying is that hitting and damage output should be randomised, not delay 10:43:44 by: I agree 10:44:00 but I also think it's not really feasible 10:44:03 We introduced the penalties deliberately, and they may be too harsh, but I am not sure about that. 10:44:17 by: what is not? 10:44:41 using expected value or the penalties themselves? 10:44:58 to figure out simple formulas that give about the current expected penalties 10:45:13 ah 10:45:15 Is my reading of body armour penalty being applied first in calculation weapon delay then again in applying delay to an attack? 10:45:26 got to go now, later 10:45:27 on top of the weapon speed calc. 10:45:33 Later, enjoy your day 10:45:58 LordSloth: I don't think that AEVP entering twice is necessarily a flaw. 10:46:54 I think it used to be entered twice, but I've no idea whether it's still supposed to 10:47:07 dpeg_: from managing the code, however, having it applied in two different functions to the same action? 10:49:07 LordSloth: cannot comment on that, sorry 10:49:11 Seems like potential unintended behavior if things are changed but they forget to update both functions. 10:49:17 Okay, I won't worry about it. 11:03:43 -!- ais523 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:03:44 -!- LordSloth is now known as LordSlothAway 11:08:22 -!- LordSlothAway is now known as LordSloth 11:09:25 Dragon armor doesn't boost AC by armor rating (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1573) by Artis 11:11:29 -!- LordSloth is now known as LordSlothAway 11:30:10 03Cryp71c * rbfc190a14bb0 10/crawl-ref/source/mutation.cc: Remove regeneration as DS facet fix breath weapons 11:30:11 03Cryp71c 07unarmed_effects * r1481517a0644 10/crawl-ref/source/ (6 files): Implement bleeding for unarmed claw attacks 11:31:27 -!- nrook has joined ##crawl-dev 11:34:01 aww my regen3 gone 11:35:34 felirx, :P 11:35:53 Does anyone have any changes that will cause a major version bump? We're at 22 atm, aren't we? 11:36:11 I'd rework the speed mutation for DS at least 11:36:22 felirx, we already have a change for it :) 11:36:35 (new body slot facet) 11:36:41 regen 3 combined with speed 3 is borderline ludicrous 11:36:59 meh, regen is only 60 at lvl 3 and is a tier1 mut. 11:37:00 Not amazing. 11:37:15 Hellfire + PBD + speed could be problematic, I think. 11:38:06 I can storm my mana, go behind corner and lose the monsters due to stealth check 11:38:15 then sif muna channel my mana back and regen 10-30 hp while channeling 11:50:03 Does it seem silly to describe DS wings as " small demonic wings" 11:54:12 not at first glance to me 11:54:26 -!- LordSlothAway is now known as LordSloth 11:59:41 imagine them as a succubus type bat wings! 11:59:54 then call them "batlike wings," I think 12:00:01 people will fill in the demonic bit themselves 12:01:16 l1). Skeletal/tattered wings l2) leathery wings? 12:12:33 nrook, 'batlike' implies bat or bat-like form, which I wanted to avoid 12:12:43 LordSloth, I like tattered, that sounds demonicy, I might say "burning, tattered wings" 12:13:21 lol "You have small burning tattered wings." perhaps I'm a bit overboard on adjectives? 12:13:49 Crawl is all about piling on the adjectives 12:14:29 reminds me of the citadel BBSes, where you'd enter commands like Read Reverse Unread By-User Messages 12:15:24 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 12:17:19 morning all 12:18:46 Sup 12:19:06 Cryp71c: burning/freezing resist/envelopes 12:19:21 There is that other mutation set on the resist lines 12:19:44 LordSloth, wait, what are you talking about? 12:19:50 The molten / icy blue scale facets? 12:20:12 Is the third level of that mutatiosn still something like freezing damage or whatever? 12:21:12 The third level of Ice 2 (I think) is freezing damage, yes. 12:21:20 Ah, yes, passive freeze or icemail from the Ice1 Ice II muts 12:21:48 I was thinking that would be an odd mismatch. Ice mail, burning wings = steamy demon? 12:21:57 lol, steamy demon 12:22:04 yeah I took out burning, presently. they're just tattered wings. 12:23:01 ??smoke demon 12:23:02 smoke demon[1/1]: They are type 3 in trunk. The most dangerous 4 because of smite. Do not underestimate them."Napalm demon" would be a more accurate description; they cast sticky flame and smite. 12:23:11 @?smoke demon 12:23:12 smoke demon (153) | Speed: 9 | HD: 7 | Health: 21-56 | AC/EV: 5/9 | Damage: 8, 5, 5 | Flags: 05demonic, fly | Res: 06magic(56), 05fire++, 03poison | XP: 314 | Sp: sticky flame, steam ball, smiting. 12:23:49 Cryp71c: passive freeze kills an executioner in about 7 rounds iwth you doing nothing 12:23:50 Would be nifty if smoke demons could see through clouds, traveled in a perpetual one 12:24:01 felirx, 7 rounds or 7 attacks? 12:24:12 7 rounds of hasted attacks I think 12:24:17 that's a very long time. 12:24:21 for an executioner, that is. 12:24:29 I can retest that when I spot one 12:24:46 7 rounds of hasted attacks is...what? 35 attacks at least? 12:30:50 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:35:27 -!- LordSloth has left ##crawl-dev 12:37:17 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 12:40:15 -!- ogaz has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:41:44 dpeg_, there? 12:57:46 Props on the new Tut, really great job whoever made that 12:58:37 I especially like the ending :D The tut ends much like half the games a new player will experience, and this is good 12:59:31 My first time friend playing the tutorial managed to blast sigmund :( 13:01:18 wow, the shoals are a fantastic branch 13:01:25 my applause to everyone who had a part in them 13:07:20 -!- zenna has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:08:11 -!- Keskitalo has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:13:57 -!- ogaz has joined ##crawl-dev 13:15:35 -!- Keskitalo has joined ##crawl-dev 13:17:51 -!- by has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 13:24:53 back 13:25:04 WB, I don't remember what I was going to ask you. 13:26:57 nrook: the shoals took forever. Great to hear that it was worth the wait :) 13:35:14 -!- zenna has joined ##crawl-dev 13:38:53 I'm beginning to feel that you should never reach spriggan speed unless you're a spriggan :D 13:39:33 Yeah :) hence the speed changes 13:39:34 for DS 13:48:50 13 rounds for this executioner 13:48:55 they have a huge variance on hp 13:49:41 felirx: not more than anybody else. 13:50:06 12 for another 14:01:06 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 14:02:46 -!- Luca__ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:03:01 -!- Luca__ has joined ##crawl-dev 14:03:34 -!- TGWi has joined ##crawl-dev 14:05:00 -!- zenna has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:06:50 -!- zenna has joined ##crawl-dev 14:07:54 -!- Keskitalo has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:08:00 -!- Keskitalo has joined ##crawl-dev 14:12:12 -!- Anym has joined ##crawl-dev 14:21:50 -!- by has joined ##crawl-dev 14:26:08 -!- dpeg_ has quit [Quit: bye] 14:27:54 felirx, most of the monsters have a % variance in hp range, at higher hp, the variance becomes larger, though its the same %. 14:28:03 That's probably what you're experiencing. 14:34:31 felirx: do boots of running boost your speed even with speed 3? 14:34:37 no 14:34:42 I can't cast swiftness either 14:34:49 they are just the best enchanted pair of boots I've found 14:34:57 I could have enchanted boots of stealth but kinda forgot :D 14:35:00 just wondering, that's all 14:37:49 Yeah, player speed caps at 6, any lower and the code sets it to 6 just before return. 14:38:03 monster hp variance isn't quite constant, but executioners seem to be like most monsters 14:38:10 @?? executioner 14:38:10 Executioner (151) | Speed: 20 | HD: 12 | Health: 36-96 | AC/EV: 10/15 | Damage: 30, 10, 10 | Flags: 05demonic, evil, see invisible | Res: 06magic(144), 05fire, 02cold, 10elec++, 03poison | XP: 2372 | Sp: pain (d14), haste. 14:38:18 @?? greater mummy 14:38:18 greater mummy (16M) | Speed: 10 | HD: 15 | Health: 175-220 | AC/EV: 10/6 | Damage: 35 | Flags: 07undead, evil, spellcaster, see invisible | Res: 13magic(immune), 02cold, 10elec++, 03poison | XP: 7613 | Sp: demon, smiting (7-17), torment symbol, summon undead. 14:38:23 THey're actually quite low in hp compared to HD 14:38:25 @?? dragon 14:38:26 dragon (03D) | Speed: 10 | HD: 12 | Health: 60-120 | AC/EV: 10/8 | Damage: 20, 13, 13 | Flags: fly | Res: 06magic(64), 05fire++, 03poison | Vul: 12cold | XP: 1356 | Sp: flame blast (3d24). 14:38:35 @?? wyvern 14:38:35 wyvern (04D) | Speed: 15 | HD: 5 | Health: 15-40 | AC/EV: 5/10 | Damage: 20 | Res: 06magic(20) | XP: 205. 14:38:36 But I suppose the high dmg makes up for it. 14:39:30 They tickle if you have any AC, but they are scary as nonpowered casters 14:52:39 psh, 30 + weapon damage isn't tickling. 14:53:55 weapon damage? 14:54:24 Someone told me once that values in @?? are base values, subject to the addition of weapon damage 14:55:58 that is true but executioners don't use weapons 14:56:06 not even executioner axes 14:56:08 ...really? I thought they did. 14:56:10 my bad. 14:56:40 a unique executioner with an executioner's axe? 14:56:45 I don't know if they can pick them up, but they definitely don't generate with them normally 14:56:48 by, love it 14:57:24 Could be a pet of the named ancient liche unique "Kel'thuzad" :) 14:57:31 j/k 15:01:01 by: I want a unique ice fiend named ozocubu 15:01:09 but the unique executioner sounds pretty cool too 15:02:37 03by * r14b1683d87c9 10/crawl-ref/source/item_use.cc: Fix blowgun code even better. 15:10:25 -!- TGWi has left ##crawl-dev 15:11:08 Kiku corpse invocation effectiveness greatly varies based on location (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1574) by OG17 15:26:34 -!- keithburgun has joined ##crawl-dev 15:26:37 Hey all 15:27:07 Wondering if anyone could point me to a reference that explains Crawl's time/speed/turns system 15:28:30 keithburgun, No idea if there is documentation for it, but you can pretty easily find several references to player movement / speed by grepping (or searching) for MUT_FAST and DUR_HASTE 15:29:02 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:30:20 keithburgun: basically, the monster moves player_delay*monster_speed/100 for each move of the player 15:31:56 Thanks ya'll 15:32:01 Anyone here played 100 Rogues for iPhone yet? =] 15:33:05 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 15:34:32 no iphone :( 15:35:11 Moto-droid here. 15:35:34 BTW...someone port DCSS to the droid..I'd do it, but I don't want to unlock my phone and potentially brick it. 15:43:46 ya, i know it's very rare for smart people like you DCers to actually have an iphone 15:43:47 Just thought I'd ask 15:43:52 anyway, take care! 15:43:58 -!- keithburgun has quit [] 15:44:12 by, you think tattered wings should be delay 9 instead of delay 8? 15:44:25 mind you that in either case, it blocks the swiftness spell 15:44:54 Cryp71c: you know, I was freaking out about it in ##crawl, but now that I think of it even delay 8 isn't that scary 15:45:20 Delay 8 is pretty powerful, you only need flight to get to spriggan speed, which is too close, imo. 15:46:13 sounds more like flight giving you -2 delay is the scary part 15:46:14 and this is a tier 2 mutation. 15:47:06 Flight + swiftness gives -4 , Swiftness gives -2, flight on its own (iirc) gives no speed bonus? 15:47:07 and is that really going to be less scary with delay 9? delay 7 is still very fast 15:47:12 yep 15:47:45 Yeah, but delay 7 is better than delay 6. 15:47:51 (from a balance standpoint) 15:50:41 you need boots of running, flight and swift to get to spriggan speed 15:50:47 (or levels of MUT_FAST) 15:51:15 Spriggan speed is 6, Swiftness + Flight is -4 (or 6) 15:51:21 You don't need running. 15:51:32 mmm really? 15:51:35 yes 15:51:45 Or running + swiftness, given that they stack..I'm not sure they do. 15:51:51 they do 15:51:58 at least by character screen status thingy 15:52:00 -!- Luca__ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:52:18 -!- Luca__ has joined ##crawl-dev 15:52:31 then my MUT_FAST mutation was totally useless :( 15:54:28 !tell dpeg_ there are issues with ds_wings giving swiftness. If it gives swiftness (-2 movement) then all you need is flight to get to spriggan speed (too powerful for a tier 2 mutation) 15:54:28 Cryp71c: OK, I'll let dpeg_ know. 15:54:41 -!- ogaz has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:55:04 !tell dpeg_ alternatively, I had thought of it blocking swiftness and taking the delay to 9 (-1 instead of -2), but then having ds_wings 3 is actually worse than just casting swiftness. 15:55:05 Cryp71c: OK, I'll let dpeg_ know. 15:55:09 !tell dpeg I left messages on dpeg_ 15:55:09 Cryp71c: OK, I'll let dpeg know. 15:55:13 actually, If wings 2 gives cFly, won't you get the flight with just levitation? 15:55:22 ...yes? 15:55:25 or is it an intrisict of the flight spell and not controlled flight in general? 15:56:00 felirx, yes, controlled flight + levitation == flight 15:56:31 that would mean that every demonspawn with that facet would get to -6 with just being able to get a levitation source 15:56:36 !tell dpeg_ correction, since ds_wings 2 gives cFly, all you need is levi to have flight, so at ds_wings 3, having +levi gives you Spriggan speed... 15:56:36 Cryp71c: OK, I'll let dpeg_ know. 15:56:42 yep 15:59:07 -!- syllogism has quit [] 15:59:36 Cryp71c: well, more flavourful than being speed 1-3 15:59:46 casmith789, wha? 15:59:48 maybe not give it swiftness, though? 15:59:58 the flying mutation 16:00:01 need something else to give at ds_wings 3 then 16:00:23 +blink? 16:00:39 we're moving away from active ability-giving mutations. 16:00:43 ah 16:06:54 wing buffet at mut 1, move other stuff upwards 16:07:33 that would be an 'a' ability too 16:07:42 unless it knocked back monsters on hit which iirc was discussed? 16:08:02 knock back monsters on hit? sounds broken 16:08:16 can't you just keep using that and they can't respond 16:09:09 The discussion regarding monster knockback is more appropriately described as charging a monster. 16:09:14 They move back a space, you advance a space. 16:09:26 if they don't have room to move back, they take bonus damage. 16:09:56 ah 16:10:50 -!- Anym has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.3/20100401080539]] 16:31:50 New tile for Earth Elementals (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1575) by coolio 16:42:46 knockback sounds like potentially bad as well as good 16:42:50 if you can't control it 16:43:07 imagine it happening during a fight one space from the end of a corridor 16:45:40 03dolorous * r4e033d97f307 10/crawl-ref/source/ (beam.cc dat/descript/monsters.txt enum.h fight.cc ouch.cc): Implement Mantis 1571. 16:56:01 Plural of cyclops is written as 'cyclopi' in their in-game description, and it should probably be the Greek Cyclopes or English Cyclopses. 17:08:19 -!- ogaz has joined ##crawl-dev 17:11:51 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:12:04 The In-game description for cyclops pluralizes it as 'cyclopi', which is incorrect in any language. (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1576) by Danei 18:02:23 -!- Enne has joined ##crawl-dev 18:05:18 -!- dunas has joined ##crawl-dev 18:05:19 -!- jedahan has joined ##crawl-dev 18:05:28 to any devs: would a patch that allows installing of a tiles enabled crawl as crawl-tiles alongside the ascii-enabled crawl as crawl be appreciated or rejected outright ? 18:05:42 basically add a new ASCII=y option that is enabled by default 18:13:06 jedahan: it would be a lot of work that would make the resulting binary error prone. Why can't you just install two separate binaries that share the same data files? 18:13:31 that is what I am proposing 18:13:55 change the makefile so you can create two separate binaries but share everything else 18:14:03 it's already done in Debian... for Windows you can just copy both to the same directory 18:15:00 right its covered downstream by individual package maintainers, but I just wanted to see if there are any technical objections to making it available upstream, thereby lightening the load of distribution maintainers 18:15:20 it would also help people who are installing from scratch or use a from-source distro 18:16:10 currently, the whole source has to be recompiled twice, including common source files (ie, 95% of them) 18:17:00 so that needs either copying/symlinking everything to a temporary directory or doing "make clean" in the middle 18:20:49 Any plans to make Ronnie James Dio as a Pandemonium Lord, because it'd be awesome? 18:24:55 hmm i see thanks for explaining KiloByte 18:25:51 i feel like I could hack around it just by making ascii and tiles build targets, and setting the correct ifdefs' 18:26:33 though that would conflict with wizard/debug. It seems like it would require some extensive rewriting, but it should be a good way to learn makefiles 18:28:23 -!- ais523 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:32:07 -!- casmith789 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:32:28 -!- jedahan has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:08:33 -!- Niccus has joined ##crawl-dev 19:08:52 morning 19:10:16 evening 19:10:22 Adieu, due. 19:10:23 -!- Enne has quit [Quit: Enne] 19:19:15 -!- ogaz has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:53:38 -!- by has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:10:36 -!- morik has joined ##crawl-dev 20:42:35 -!- nrook has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 20:42:37 -!- Mu_ has quit [Quit: Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place.] 20:56:47 -!- eith has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:00:55 -!- jedahan has joined ##crawl-dev 21:26:58 -!- TGWi has joined ##crawl-dev 21:29:23 would the devs be open to reordering the classes? 21:29:40 I figure the letters will change anyway with th and dk gone 21:29:50 and my ordering makes more sense to me 21:39:41 the 0.4 overhaul committee reordered them in 0.4 21:45:37 th and dk are gone? 21:45:53 I guess th had it comming, but DK? 21:46:46 dk's gone 21:47:28 It is? 21:49:34 http://crawl-ref.git.sourceforge.net/git/gitweb.cgi?p=crawl-ref/crawl-ref;a=commit;h=a8fdd4e043f846f91566ade13acc1b1031f842a5 21:51:08 https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:interface:combochoice 21:51:14 it's nearly all the way at the bottom 21:54:23 added a new one actually all the way at the bottom 21:59:40 -!- TGWi has left ##crawl-dev 21:59:55 -!- Epyon_ has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:08:36 -!- ogaz has joined ##crawl-dev 22:58:26 -!- Niccus has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:30:16 Hm, why were thief/dk removed? 23:30:16 neunon: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them. 23:30:20 !messages 23:30:20 (1/2) ixtli said (1d 1h 2m 12s ago): There seem to be some duplicate function definitions in libgui and libunix. window() and itoa() for instance. Should I be building with a #define that stops one of these files from being included? 23:30:21 !messages 23:30:22 (1/1) ixtli said (1d 54m 15s ago): Sorry, scratch that, the makefile tells me not to include libunix.* when I'm making a tiles build. 23:37:48 -!- Textmode has quit [Quit: Over the ages, man has been certain of a great many things. some of these things were even true.] 23:41:32 -!- Eronarn has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:42:17 -!- Eronarn has joined ##crawl-dev