00:20:22 <purge_> anyone know what happened to greensnark?
00:26:08 <sorear> ...something happened to greensnark?
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00:32:45 <Cryp71c> !seen greensnark
00:32:45 <Henzell> I last saw greensnark at Thu Apr  1 04:05:33 2010 UTC (1w 1h 27m 12s ago) quitting with message Quit: leaving.
00:33:04 <Cryp71c> Been an aweful long time, maybe a personal life issue that's pulled him away.
00:33:07 <sorear> greensnark frequently parts for months at a time
00:33:14 <Cryp71c> ah, perhaps not then.
00:33:42 <sorear> maybe he's bored, maybe he doesn't always have Internet access, I don't really know or care
00:33:53 <doy> it's work a lot of times
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03:31:39 <cbus> are DS mutations fixed on CDO yet?
03:39:18 <ixtli> Is there a minimum version of OpenGL that tiles must support?
03:39:35 <ixtli> Currently we're using calls that require 1.1, but I'm wondering what the most reasonable version to expect is.
03:49:40 <Xiberia> cbus, not yet
04:07:12 <Ashenzari> Monster tag that forces it to always drop a corpse when it dies (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1314) by evktalo
04:13:31 <Napkin> puuh... this chr -> sav is more complicated than I thought...
04:15:52 <cbus> xiberia, ok
04:54:52 <Keskitalo> Overflow altars seem to break early encompass maps.
04:57:08 <doy> Keskitalo: overflow altars break all kinds of dungeon generation stuff
04:57:13 <doy> someone should look into that
04:57:18 <Napkin> ok, I _hop_ I added .chr everywhere
04:57:22 <Napkin> let's update CDO?
04:57:26 <Ashenzari> New tag: no_shop_gen (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1315) by evktalo
04:57:28 <Napkin> *hope
04:57:58 <Keskitalo> doy: Heh. I'll report this one.
05:02:29 <Ashenzari> Overflow altar vaults seem to break encompass maps (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1316) by evktalo
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06:33:07 <Textmode> morning all
06:33:22 <ixtli> Textmode: good evening :)
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06:34:47 <Textmode> heya ixtli, how are you today?
06:35:20 <ixtli> Pretty good.  I'm working on making crawl draw triangle_strips instead of quads
06:35:27 <sorear> Still?
06:35:30 <ixtli> and cleaning up the vertex buffering code in the process.
06:35:39 <ixtli> sorear: I want to make sure I'm doing it right
06:36:16 <ixtli> I'm using DrawElements right now and making the existing buffers keep indices
06:36:48 <ixtli> Whenever I use openGL I always feel like no matter what I'm doing there is probably a more efficient way to do it.  Not that it stops me, but its unnerving.
06:37:03 <ixtli> Textmode: how are you?
06:38:07 <Textmode> well enough, but I've only just got up, so theres plenty of time for the day to get worse.
06:38:11 <ixtli> sorear: Also, the tiles code shouldn't be keeping the buffers, the glwrapper code should so that implementing vbos might be easier if someone wanted to do it.
06:38:13 * Textmode is an optimist.
06:38:17 <ixtli> Textmode: Heh, seems like it :D
06:43:21 <Ashenzari> dungeon tile (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1317) by Denzi
06:45:57 <ixtli> huh
06:45:58 <ixtli> that's pretty
06:48:29 <ortoslon> with color change, this could look cool in vaults
06:59:01 <ixtli> ortoslon: just greyscale it
06:59:06 <ixtli> and then tint using ogl
06:59:17 <ortoslon> yeah
06:59:30 <ixtli> it's a really pretty tileset though.
06:59:39 <ortoslon> can we do colored doors?
07:00:16 <Zaba> yes
07:00:38 <ixtli> it should be pretty straightforward to add a "tint randomly within range" function that might pretty things up, though then you'd have to keep track of state.
07:01:23 <ortoslon> maybe same tint over the whole floor
07:01:35 <ortoslon> to make floors look slightly different
07:04:04 <ixtli> putting tinting on my todo list :)
07:04:22 <ortoslon> oh are you a tiles dev?
07:08:29 <Ashenzari> Pandemonium uniques/runes should not be lost forever. (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1318) by casmith789
07:09:59 <ixtli> ortoslon: i am writing code for tiles
07:10:07 <ixtli> the majority of my work has yet to be committed
07:10:13 <ixtli> also i've only been around for a month or two
07:32:20 <CIA-43> 03burnhamrobertp * r8bd745406202 10/crawl-ref/source/mutation.cc: Adjust_PBD_mutation_rot_factor
07:32:21 <CIA-43> 03burnhamrobertp * r44926c032022 10/crawl-ref/source/ (mutation-data.h mutation.cc): Remove_tough_skin_as_ds_and_random_mutation
07:32:22 <CIA-43> 03burnhamrobertp * r98e73bfd4f72 10/crawl-ref/source/ (mutation.cc player.cc): Adjust_pbd_for_balance
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08:16:00 <Keskitalo> ixtli: Tinting exists, you can say "COLOUR: . = blue" in a vault definition, and it colours floor blue in both ascii and tiles. :)
08:16:31 <ixtli> Really? :o
08:16:41 <due> Keskitalo: I'm working on both of them :)
08:16:44 <due> no_trap_gen, etc.
08:16:52 <ixtli> Keskitalo: Do you know where the handling for that is in the c source ?
08:16:55 <due> ixtli: It should. In some instances it might not, but it should.
08:17:20 <ixtli> I wanna see how tiles is doing it.
08:17:22 <due> ixtli: Tile classes are given colour variants; if an area is specifically coloured and that tile has that colour variant, it is displayed instead.
08:17:40 <due> So you want the stuff in rltiles/ and so-on, probably tool.
08:17:45 <ixtli> Indeed.
08:17:52 <ixtli> due: Ah I was thinking of approaching it a different way.
08:17:54 <ixtli> Just to mess around.
08:17:57 <due> And the colour variation syntax is pretty easy to follow. :)
08:18:16 <Keskitalo> ixtli: No idea! :)
08:18:25 <ixtli> You could greyscale the tileset Denzi posted and then tint it right before it's drawn using blending
08:18:28 <Keskitalo> due: Fantastic! Thank you!
08:18:48 <Keskitalo> due: Oh, I thought it was the tinting. Good to know!
08:18:48 <CIA-43> 03dolorous * r8ed756e54c7d 10/crawl-ref/source/player.cc: Add minor cosmetic fixes.
08:18:49 <due> ixtli: There's also dynamic recolouring using HSV :)
08:19:05 <ixtli> :D
08:19:11 <due> Keskitalo: No in-game tinting.
08:19:14 <due> So I should rephrase.
08:19:24 <ixtli> Yeah that's more what I was talking about.
08:19:28 <due> The tile page generator has dynamic recolouring, but there's no in-game recolouring.
08:19:29 <ixtli> I've seen the color variant support.
08:19:44 <due> I'm tired and shit :)
08:19:50 <ixtli> /this/ is why I always feel like I cannot grasp the entirety of opengl
08:20:00 <ixtli> I've never seen HSV recolouring.
08:20:10 <ixtli> It makes sense but I feel like I can never get to the end of this crap XP
08:20:17 <due> I just copy and paste, to be honest ):
08:20:22 <due> Enne is the real genius behind all o this.
08:20:46 <ixtli> Indeed.
08:20:47 <Keskitalo> Denzi's crystal tile set makes me think it could fit Elven Halls well.
08:20:54 <due> Crystal tile set?
08:21:02 <due> Oooh a new set?!
08:21:03 * due goes to see
08:21:17 <due> Denzi's tiles always make me go mmmm.
08:21:26 <due> Oh *wow8.
08:21:31 <ixtli> It's pretty, right?
08:21:35 <ixtli> Very detailed.
08:21:37 <due> I absolutely adore them.
08:21:48 <due> Keskitalo: Lehudib's Crystal Spire!
08:22:01 <due> I love the eshading and detail and cracks.
08:22:09 <ixtli> Yeah the cracks are what got me.
08:23:02 <ixtli> Huh.  You know what might be fun.  A creature that was difficult if you were playing using Tiles.
08:23:10 <st_> due I got shoals_atoll but it didn't seem like it worked properly
08:23:19 <ixtli> It found the average color of the tile it was on and tinted
08:23:22 <due> :(( nooo
08:23:33 <due> st_: What happened?
08:23:55 <due> I've added the last ten new monsters O_o
08:24:06 <Keskitalo> Ahh, elven halls is already using a nice tileset.
08:24:17 <st_> I killed to kraken, got the message but the water stayed the same. when I came back to the level there was a space in the middle of the water but no items
08:24:35 <st_> I could show you it
08:25:11 <due> hm
08:25:16 <due> pester darshan :)
08:26:02 <Keskitalo> The brick tileset would be good for baileys, and castle vaults.
08:27:05 <Keskitalo> due: Can you add a bit about LCS to the crystal tiles item?
08:27:49 <due> Keskitalo: Done.
08:28:13 <Keskitalo> Thanks!
08:33:12 <due> Okay, no_trpa_gen is done, just nee dto test it.
08:35:57 <due> And no_shop_gen, I think.
08:39:27 <due> Oh wow, I like the new character chooser.
08:39:53 <Mu_> does 'gloom' have a tile
08:39:57 <due> Okay, no trap gen is broken.
08:40:00 <due> Mu_: an ugly one.
08:40:21 <Mu_> is gloom used any where / is it okay to use it in a vault?
08:41:24 <due> Not used anywhere yet... portal vaults should be okay.
08:42:32 <Keskitalo> I like my "rippling" LOS edge idea, but jpeg didn't. :/
08:42:36 <due> Hm, endless loop.
08:42:41 <due> Keskitalo: For gloom?
08:42:52 <due> "Unable to generate level for D:2".
08:43:05 <ortoslon> ixtli: that creature exist, it's called shadow
08:43:06 <due> This is interesting.
08:43:12 <ortoslon> shadows are hard to see in tiles
08:43:26 <Keskitalo> due: Yeah, I think it would be similar. (checking gloom..)
08:43:31 <due> It wants to place an overflow temple.
08:43:40 <Keskitalo> ortoslon: Yeah, that's listed on the tiles improvements page.
08:43:46 <due> On an encompass map.
08:43:49 <due> Which means it just hangs.
08:43:56 <Keskitalo> due: I just filed a BR! :)
08:44:00 <ortoslon> Keskitalo: will it be redrawn? thank xom
08:44:06 <Keskitalo> We chould totally give Denzi a list tiles in need of improvement.
08:44:11 <Keskitalo> ortoslon: Well, it's on a list. :)
08:44:13 <due> Keskitalo: Ah, excellent.
08:44:32 <due> Okay, no_trap_gen definitely works.
08:44:36 <due> I've no idea how to test shops.
08:44:54 <ortoslon> i'm currently addicted to wesnoth which has similar-styled but larger tiles
08:46:59 <Keskitalo> Yeah, Wesnoth graphics are very nice. Pretty good game, too. :)
08:47:29 <Keskitalo> due: mpr when attempting to place shops?
08:47:57 <due> Or just dial  up shop generation to a straight 10 per level
08:48:12 <due> Works perfectly.
08:48:16 <due> just need to remember not to commit that.
08:48:26 <Keskitalo> hehe :)
08:48:49 <due> Okay, both work perfectly, will commit.
08:51:09 <Keskitalo> Hey, the sand trap idea in the Desert branch page is the same as my "stuck in mud" in Held and restrained.
08:52:11 <syllogism> i've had okawaru all game and I've used one gift and 0 abilities
08:52:25 <Keskitalo> @whereis syllogism
08:52:25 <Gretell> syllogism the Cutthroat (L20 SpEn), a worshipper of Okawaru, is currently on Elf:5 after 72339 turns.
08:52:46 <Keskitalo> syllogism: Well, you've also managed without. Too easy? :]
08:52:48 <syllogism> I never found a blowgun and the whole point of the game was to use blowguns
08:53:06 <syllogism> my throwing is even 10
08:53:10 <syllogism> so he keeps giving me darts
08:53:23 <Keskitalo> Sad. :|
08:53:43 <due> Yeah, that's kinda broken.
08:53:59 <syllogism> he never gifts a blowgun
08:54:04 <syllogism> unless it's a randart I guess
08:54:20 <CIA-43> 03due * rb4f63ea3832a 10/crawl-ref/ (4 files in 2 dirs): New vault tags: no_trap_gen, no_shop_gen (Eino).
08:55:09 <due> I thin kthe always generating a corpse thing will be slightly more complicated.
08:55:19 <due> I might use monster props for that.
08:59:19 <Keskitalo> due: Awesome, thanks.
09:02:12 <Keskitalo> If I add a new monster enum in the middle of the enums, will it break things? It is on an unused number (MONS_TRAINING_DUMMY after MONS_STATUE)
09:02:55 <due> No
09:03:01 <due> It shouldn't, at least.
09:03:06 <due> You aren't reordering anythin
09:03:42 <Keskitalo> Yeah, that's what I assumed too. Monsters won't be changed around because every other monsters enum number stays the same.
09:06:38 <CIA-43> 03Keskitalo * r2ade68e9e913 10/crawl-ref/source/ (enum.h mon-data.h): Add a new monster in preparation of the map-based tutorial: training dummy.
09:07:05 <due> The or a?
09:07:12 <due> Are we switching completely to map-based?
09:07:27 <Keskitalo> The current tutorial would become a "hints mode".
09:07:42 <Keskitalo> The new tutorial would only teach the very basics.
09:08:00 <due> Excellent.
09:08:31 <Keskitalo> I think it'd be nice if the hints mode would be: "press Ctrl-H to toggle hints on/off" during game.
09:09:03 <Zaba> are tutorial games scored?
09:09:27 <Keskitalo> Yeah, they're almost the same as normal games; the only difference I can think of is that they don't use an entry vault.
09:09:41 <Zaba> hm.
09:10:00 <Zaba> so the hints mode wouldn't need to be very special
09:10:10 <Zaba> whereas the tutorial would be something like dungeon sprint, I guess?
09:10:15 <Keskitalo> Yes, exactly.
09:12:49 <Keskitalo> "Norbert's soul is no longer ripe for the taking" should stand out a bit more..
09:15:55 <CIA-43> 03Keskitalo * r727c02929124 10/crawl-ref/settings/messages.txt: Make the message about soul no longer ripe for taking stand out.
09:19:52 <Keskitalo> Friendly reaper with a scythe of reaping would be so. Cool
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09:31:06 <st_> does yred give reapers?
09:32:05 <st_> nice title Keskitalo :D
09:33:45 <Keskitalo> Volcano!!
09:34:05 <Keskitalo> st_: Nope. It would be a good(?) gift for a combo that doesn't normally get zombies.
09:35:28 <Cryp71c> I guess napkin didn't have time to update CDO to trunk last night.
09:36:20 <Napkin> last night?
09:36:28 <Keskitalo> I'm about to.
09:36:32 <Napkin> it was 5:30 this morning when we spoke :-P
09:37:02 <Keskitalo> :)
09:37:49 <Cryp71c> Napkin, oh, lol I'm GMT -6 (I think? US CST) so it was like midnight - 1 amish
09:38:18 <Napkin> ahh, sorry, i thought i remembered you had european net - nevermind then :)
09:39:40 <Cryp71c> nope, I have to suffer with slight delay to CDO :)
09:39:59 <Keskitalo> due: Subvaults would be perfect for Volcanos (volcanoes?), the scenery is often great, and changing the "insides" would make them more surprising and would also be easier than to design a completely new vault.
09:40:33 <Keskitalo> Master branch on CDO updated to: 0.7.0-a0-1105-g727c029 (22.0)
09:43:49 <Cryp71c> Was there a major version bump?
09:44:47 <Keskitalo> Yes. :|
09:44:47 <Cryp71c> Nevermind, there was.
09:45:02 <Keskitalo> due: I'm using the hat of Pondering btw, found it in a shop.
09:46:04 <Cryp71c> How can you see when a file was last changed? git reflog show filename sort of does that, but doesn't display any data and says "fast forwarded"
09:51:00 <Keskitalo> Ponderousness doesn't give EV malus anymore, right?
09:52:57 <Keskitalo> Correct, it doesn't
09:54:43 <Keskitalo> "It is very cumbersome, slowing your movement." - correct English?
09:56:45 <ahpla> sounds ok to me
09:57:14 <syllogism> doesn't a bit awkward to me
09:57:16 <syllogism> err
09:57:18 <syllogism> sounds*
09:57:38 <CIA-43> 03Keskitalo * rb109e9c3d7d6 10/crawl-ref/source/describe.cc: Remove the incorrect bit about reducing evasion from the ponderousness brand description.
09:59:09 <Keskitalo> I thought "It is very cumbersome and slows down your movement" sounded like it was BOTH cumbersome AND slowed down your movement.
09:59:57 <syllogism> and thus slows down your movement
10:00:09 <syllogism> or just , thus
10:00:25 <Keskitalo> Yes, that sounds better to me.
10:01:54 <Keskitalo> "It is very cumbersome, thus it slows down your movement." ?
10:02:05 <syllogism> that or even thus slowing down your movement
10:02:09 <ahpla> i don't think there is anything wrong with the first message
10:02:20 <ahpla> it already implies that as a result of "it" being cumbersome, your movement is slowed
10:02:30 <syllogism> sounds spoken english
10:03:25 <Keskitalo> thus it is.
10:03:44 <CIA-43> 03Keskitalo * r5ddef64cce8c 10/crawl-ref/source/describe.cc: Ponderous description, now with added thus. (syllogism)
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10:10:19 <syllogism> [ERROR: no desc for item name 'dart (runed)'
10:11:22 <ahpla> known bug
10:11:44 <Keskitalo> !tell I enslaved Donald's soul.
10:11:44 <Henzell> Keskitalo: OK, I'll let I know.
10:11:48 <Keskitalo> !tell due I enslaved Donald's soul.
10:11:48 <Henzell> Keskitalo: OK, I'll let due know.
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10:17:42 <LordSloth> I was wondering, since the new guaranteed damage system in 0.7...
10:18:06 <LordSloth> Should statue form get any guaranteed damage reduction?
10:18:07 <Keskitalo> Noooo Donald got himself killed. :|
10:18:24 <Keskitalo> LordSloth: Could be; can you add that to the wiki?
10:18:52 <LordSloth> Certainly. Last time I checked, the ac discussion page was still in full on 0.6 mode
10:19:35 <Keskitalo> There's a transmutations page which would be better.
10:24:39 <Keskitalo> No healing could be a neat branch/portal vault effect.
10:27:15 <LordSloth> Keskitalo: well as a special case, yes..
10:27:51 <LordSloth> But the general question is whether gdr should be restricted only to body armor, to non-dodge builds, or....
10:28:51 <LordSloth> For instance, ozocubu's armour probably shouldn't give any gdr, nor stoneskin. Maybe dragon form. But it should be brought up and dismissed perhaps.
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10:29:30 <Anym> Hi all.
10:30:53 <LordSloth> Hello
10:31:04 <LordSloth> Keskitalo: this the page you were talking about? https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:feedback:magic:school:transmutation&s[]=reduction
10:31:37 <Fangorn> Hi all, I need a clarification as to if this is a bug or not
10:32:07 <Fangorn> re: Ozocubu's Armor spell...you can't cast it on yourself if you're wearing heavy armor (ring or heavier)
10:32:32 <Fangorn> But, you can cast it on yourself if said heavy armor is melded into a form you've transmuted into.
10:33:00 <Fangorn> And, if you end transformation manually, the effect of the armor spell continues while you're in natural form wearing heavy armour
10:33:17 <LordSloth> That should be a bug, yes.
10:33:47 <Fangorn> ok.  I'll report it right after I'm done exploiting it this game
10:34:32 <Ashenzari> Autotravel stops on entering or exiting water with ponderous boots as chei worshipping merfolk. (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1319) by Shovelmint
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10:35:07 <Keskitalo> LordSloth: Yup!
10:38:36 <LordSloth> Stupid question... How do I sign a wiki post again?
10:39:33 <Ashenzari> Ozocubu's armor can be used with Heavy Armor (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1320) by Fangorn
10:42:35 <Keskitalo> LordSloth: The rightmost button in the toolbar on the top.
10:43:17 <CIA-43> 03dolorous * r6eb366f85e84 10/crawl-ref/source/mutation.cc: Comment fixes.
10:45:08 <LordSloth> Okay, I feel a little embarassed, thanks. I didn't even see that toolbar.
10:56:49 <Keskitalo> It's a common question, no worries. :)
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11:16:47 <LordSloth> Keskitalo: anyways, I made a brief post to AC nerf, and I'm contemplating several more detailed ideas to submit to the transmutation page. You have any particular feedback?
11:20:20 <LordSloth> My simplest idea: ozo's armour 5% or 0 gdr, ice form 5% gdr, stacks. Dragon form 10% gdr. Statue form 20% gdr. I actually want to compare it other systems in play and try to think of some consequences though.
11:20:46 <Fangorn> ok, that bug I opened regarding Ozocubu's Armor is in fact not a bug....how do i delete or close an issue I created in Mantis?
11:21:01 <Fangorn> or can someone do it for me?
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11:23:36 <LordSloth> Fangorn: took me a while to figure out, but heres what you do.
11:23:54 <Fangorn> i'm all ears
11:23:58 <LordSloth> Click update issue from the tracker page
11:24:14 <LordSloth> The one ashenzari linked to an hour ago
11:24:48 <LordSloth> This will get you access to the 'resolution' drop down
11:25:29 <LordSloth> I still don't know how to actually 'close' it yet.
11:25:34 <LordSloth> But you can update that part.
11:26:27 <LordSloth> Going to do that resolution part now, or should i try it?
11:26:40 <Fangorn> this page?
11:26:42 <Fangorn> <Ashenzari> Ozocubu's armor can be used with Heavy Armor (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1320) by Fangorn
11:26:44 <LordSloth> I might just not have the permissions to close issues
11:26:48 <LordSloth> Fangorn: that page.
11:27:18 <LordSloth> Anyways, 2 more minutes and I'm heading away to grab lunch, so...
11:27:39 <Fangorn> hmmm, as a reporter, i may not have the permissions, as i don't see "Update Issue" anywhere on that page.
11:27:43 <syllogism> tukima has been nerfed so bad
11:27:54 <LordSloth> Okay, I'll change the resolution for you- I'm an "updater"
11:28:12 <Fangorn> alright
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11:29:30 <LordSloth> It's still 'new' but the res is "no change required" and priority none
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11:30:10 <Fangorn> excellent, thanks
11:30:18 <Keskitalo> LordSloth: GDR for forms sounds good. Ice Form doesn't need the boost though.
11:31:44 <LordSloth> I'll take that into account. I did think that 5% would be pretty trivial though if i think about it, ice is prone to shattering...
11:32:02 <LordSloth> Yeah, ice form doesn't need it thematically or practically.
11:32:21 <LordSloth> Dragon form could use some good GDR with low total ac...
11:33:07 <LordSloth> Have an opinion on ozo's armour? That spell is popular enough it doesn't need to be buffed and doesn't hamper dodging.
11:34:13 <LordSloth> I'm inclined towards not even bringing up gdr on ozos and stoneskin when I post to the wiki.
11:34:42 <LordSloth> Oh, and I was very mildly confused... when should discussion of a FR go on the tracker versus the wiki?
11:35:51 <LordSloth> Oh, i see the work flow section. Ignore that last question
11:36:23 <LordSloth> Mantis isn't like sourceforge which was primary discussion.
11:36:37 -!- LordSloth is now known as LordSlothAFK
12:10:02 <Ashenzari> In tiles, can't use mouse to pick extra character choices (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1321) by nicolae
12:13:17 <felirx> and there it comes :D
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12:28:07 <blabber> the new makefile system is not really helpful while porting to freebsd... git and perl are now build dependencies... auto-optimization and hacks trying to find libs in "linuxisch" locations ;)
12:28:18 <blabber> well at least it's compiling now.
12:28:53 <blabber> s/linuxisch/linuxish/
12:31:21 <doy> shrug, git and perl are doing useful things
12:31:52 <blabber> sure. but it was a shock at first. i guess it might be worse.
12:32:10 * blabber thinks about automake and friends.
12:32:22 <doy> yeah, kilobyte has been ranting about that for a while
12:33:00 <doy> automake and friends are pretty awful pieces of software
12:33:04 <doy> but might be necessary
12:34:58 <blabber> rss notified me about a 0.6.0.1 - this is macos only, right?
12:35:16 <doy> yes, build issues with the osx console build
12:35:33 <doy> accidentally made it 10.6 only
12:37:56 <blabber> well- tty mode is running. let's try sdl now.
12:42:11 <blabber> in the past it wasn't advised to build the tiles version using `make -j #`. is this still the case?
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12:48:37 <felirx> I've been compiling with make -j8 debug TILES=y at least
12:48:40 <felirx> on win
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12:49:36 <blabber> seems as this has changed then. nice.
12:51:49 <Ashenzari> 
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12:56:33 <blabber> well... seems as if i could submit the freebsd port today.
12:56:59 <blabber> just one question- most messages are prefixed by '_'. is this intended?
12:58:16 <doy> yes
12:58:25 <blabber> ok.
12:58:28 <doy> those separate actual game turns
12:59:03 <blabber> i see. haven't followed the recent developments ;)
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13:09:45 <Fangorn> OG17 added some good points to bug 1320....someone may want to raise the priority on it.  LordSloth lowered its priority down to the lowest as I initially thought the new bug I added wasn't really a bug, but infact, it may be.
13:14:34 <blabber> well here it is: games/stonesoup for freebsd: https://gist.github.com/e5becca1d54afc7fce99
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13:23:09 * LordSlothAFK wakes up and listens to OG17
13:23:20 <LordSlothAFK> Anything I should get off my slothful ass for?
13:23:39 <LordSlothAFK> I mean, wakes up and listens to Fangorn
13:25:05 <LordSlothAFK> open, priority low?
13:25:33 <LordSlothAFK> maybe normal
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13:47:00 <blabber> is the meaning of the underscore '_' in the messages explained anywhere in the docs? i have trouble finding it.
13:53:58 <blabber> well, i just submitted stonesoup 0.6.0 to the freebsd ports tree. it should be available soon.
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14:04:20 <st_> so are any of the mutations Cryp71c added DS only? my elf just got a demonic guardian :P
14:04:48 <Cryp71c> No, they're all in the regular mutation pool, for now.
14:04:54 <doy> they should all be ds only
14:05:13 <doy> really, there shouldn't be any overlap between ds mutations and regular mutations
14:05:45 <Cryp71c> Well, scales are universal, unless there should be a completely seperate set for random muts
14:06:45 <doy> i'd lean towards making those separate too
14:07:13 <doy> but that could go either way i guess
14:07:59 <doy> just harder to figure out how ds scale mutations vs normal scale mutations should interact
14:08:11 <doy> unless you ban ds from getting normal scale mutations altogether
14:18:24 <LordSloth> I still think scale mutations should frustrate terminal people and tiles people by changing the color of the @/adventurer
14:20:41 <Ashenzari> The Shining One should suppress/cure demonic guardian mutation (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1322) by MrMisterMonkey
14:21:17 <syllogism> more like it should be DS exclusive
14:21:21 <doy> yup
14:21:26 <doy> already commented
14:21:27 <doy> (:
14:24:07 <LordSloth> I've got a simple solution. Non-DS scales should only come in one or a few specific colors, improving the tough hide while you're at it.
14:24:28 <LordSloth> Xom scale mutations should come in random colors like fuschia, puce.
14:42:09 <syllogism> fiends should have lower MR but i'm too lazy to fr it
14:42:35 <doy> why/
14:43:13 <syllogism> so dedicated enchanters can actually do something besides passive buffs
14:44:12 <doy> i'd prefer to have better high-level enchantment spells
14:44:28 <doy> the issue really is that all of the enchantment spells worth using are like level 2-3
14:44:46 <doy> and none of them can reliably break past mr of 120 or so
14:44:47 <syllogism> the higher level ones are actually a bit harder to resist
14:45:42 <doy> like what?
14:45:43 <syllogism> and petrify is harder to resist than hibernation
14:45:52 <doy> sure, petrify is level 4
14:45:52 <LordSloth> Implement the scroll of vulnerability also as high level enchantment?
14:45:59 <doy> LordSloth: meh
14:46:11 <syllogism> Metabolic englaciation and mass confusion are harder to resist than the single target spells
14:46:23 <doy> syllogism: by how much?
14:46:39 <Gretell> Fiend (041) | Speed: 10 | HD: 18 | Health: 54-144 | AC/EV: 15/6 | Damage: 25, 15, 15 | Flags: 05demonic, see invisible, fly | Res: 06magic(288), 05hellfire, 03poison | Vul: 12cold | XP: 3713.
14:46:39 <doy> @??fiend
14:47:02 <doy> i mean, i'd rather buff those spells to the point where they're useful against endgame monsters
14:47:07 <doy> than make endgame monsters weaker
14:48:26 <syllogism> well currently even at power 200 you can't pierce mr 190 or so
14:49:23 <syllogism> you can buff the spells, but there's a lot of room to lower MRs
14:49:36 <syllogism> as currently even 100+ mr is somewhat difficult
14:49:59 <doy> meh, a high level enchanter with confuse can pretty reliably succeed against 100mr
14:50:14 <doy> but yeah, beyond that it gets more difficult
14:50:18 <doy> but i think that's fine
14:50:37 <doy> the low level spells shouldn't really be expected to work against more powerful enemies
14:50:56 <felirx> but mephitic cloud should straight out win the game!
14:51:02 <doy> d:
14:51:26 <doy> meph cloud doesn't work against fiends either d:
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14:56:47 <LordSloth> ... Tukima's dancing toenails? Is a toenail golem necromancy or enchantment?
14:57:02 <LordSloth> Okay, I need a sanity check..
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15:55:40 <due> yawn
15:55:46 <Henzell> due: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it.
15:55:52 <due> !messages
15:55:52 <Henzell> (1/1) Keskitalo said (5h 44m 4s ago): I enslaved Donald's soul.
15:55:56 <due> :(
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16:02:45 * Textmode huggles due
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16:06:01 <due> Didn't see what?
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16:55:19 <Mu_> due: what happened with dispater, i saw that bug report
16:55:35 <Mu_> are the statues broken again?
16:56:40 <due> probably
16:56:49 <due> something got killed but I'm not sure what
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19:17:13 <jmpc> Hi guys. Is feasible add i18n to the game? Where in the code can i see those to study about it?
19:20:59 <doy> heh
19:21:06 <doy> not particularly
19:21:20 <felirx> I'd say it would be an awful lot of work
19:21:24 <jmpc> :(
19:22:49 <jmpc> but in the code...
19:23:25 <doy> ??source
19:23:25 <Henzell> source[1/4]: Browse the Git repository at http://crawl-ref.git.sourceforge.net/
19:23:45 <jmpc> it need many changes? or the big problem is working in the translation of all the text?
19:24:04 <doy> both
19:24:13 <felirx> there is a huge amount of hardcoded text that uses std::string
19:24:35 <jmpc> mmm
19:24:41 <felirx> it would mean converting all that tu  a UTF-8 type of solution, and then converting all the assets that use those texts to support the new format
19:24:49 <sorear> jmpc: It's feasable.  Are you volunteering?  I would estimate 3 man-years of work to set up the codebase for translatability
19:25:00 <jmpc> jajjaa
19:25:10 <doy> also, fixing all the places in the code that do things like (count > 1) ? "s" : ""
19:25:13 <doy> and such things
19:25:32 <jmpc> Thanks sorear. I think be a volunary
19:26:12 <doy> sorear: you have a very strange definition of "feasible"
19:26:15 <felirx> on  the positive side. Imagine Kanji ascii-art!
19:26:41 <jmpc> I'm a spanish speaker (not good with english.., :P)
19:27:09 <jmpc> and think about translate the game for use in the olpc laptops.
19:28:39 <jmpc> you have any documents about plans of i18n/translations?
19:33:40 <doy> nope
19:34:38 <LordSloth> I can create a devwiki page for you if you decide to lay future plans on the subject.
19:35:14 <jmpc> Ok. If i try do the work.., what is the best place for begin?
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19:37:50 <LordSloth> Well, putting aside the issue of coding it, https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=start is a nice place to sign up
19:38:58 <LordSloth> I'd divide it into two parts: stuff that could be farmed out to the masses, and stuff that needs coding skills.
19:39:32 -!- stabwound- is now known as stabwound
19:39:45 <LordSloth> What doy said about 'fixing all the places in the code that do things like count strings' would probably be the first thing I'd tackle.
19:40:24 <LordSloth> Then you'd go to moving more text out of hard coded into seperate language files.
19:40:37 <doy> i'm more worried about the refactorings necessary to make things like gendered nouns possible at all
19:40:49 <doy> that's the kind of thing that's actually going to be a pain
19:40:50 <LordSloth> A LOT of stuff (item descriptions) is already in external files.
19:41:17 <LordSloth> Oh, god, I forgot about masculine and feminine nouns.
19:41:22 * LordSloth shudders
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19:42:09 <due> At least with Spanish you'll gain an extra letter and two extra symbols!
19:42:20 <LordSloth> What does it do for inventory?
19:42:31 <LordSloth> If you choose the wrong alphabet, you get only 11 letters!
19:42:43 <LordSloth> go thai on the other hand...
19:42:48 <LordSloth> :p
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19:43:14 <felirx> not to say...
19:43:19 <felirx> all the hotkeys are processed as ints
19:43:26 <LordSloth> Anyways, if you seperated the text from the code, the rest could be farmed out using opensource
19:43:48 <jmpc_> No. I only think in translate messages. Don't touch the keyboard.
19:44:10 <LordSloth> If the code is difficult, you could add some initial momentum by working on the description files and documentation.
19:44:40 <LordSloth> Find SOMETHING you can chip away at, and try to hook someone new to the team.
19:44:55 <LordSloth> That's probably the least effort best return strategy.
19:45:02 <LordSloth> Proselytize!
19:45:41 <jmpc_> :)
19:46:11 <felirx> don't show him the codebase until you have his signature in blood!
19:47:07 <jmpc_> I'm a programmer. Don't problem with code. But want don't waste my efforts.
19:47:14 <LordSloth> The item descriptions and abilities and what not aren't acutally hardcoded.
19:47:51 <LordSloth> So in /dat/descript/ you can rope some less skilled coders (but bilingual people) into that part and reduce your load.
19:48:35 <LordSloth> The general trend of things has been a slow and steady improvement to the underlying code, but I'm not sure anybodies actually put forth a plan/groundwork for translation yet for SS
19:48:43 <felirx> think about things like the kiku vault that has lua posted messages :(
19:48:43 <sorear> jmpc_: you haven't seen the Crawl codebase, I take it.
19:48:53 <jmpc_> jajaja
19:49:10 <sorear> Anyways, there's exactly one person here who has experience internationalizing an existing roguelike
19:49:22 <sorear> we shouldn't do anything without a proper consultation with bhaak
19:49:46 <LordSloth> So a wiki page might be a way to provide general hints for single language people to code/fix code in a better manner.
19:49:49 <due> Internationalisation would be a nightmare. :)
19:49:54 <LordSloth> Yah, what sorear said...
19:50:15 <LordSloth> Figure out some plan, and also find out what mono-lingual people can do.
19:50:58 <LordSloth> The code is changing fast enough that seperating the game engine from the language is kind of key.
19:51:18 <LordSloth> Unlike something that has hit version 1.0
19:51:58 <jmpc_> Ok. I see the code and think how can do it. Maybe first extract hardcoded messages?
19:52:19 <due> How fast is the sqlite lookup?
19:52:22 <sorear> jmpc_: that's useful, but we do a lot of runtime message generation
19:52:34 <due> Could we move all hardcoded messages into a textdb?
19:52:35 <sorear> due: fast enough.  How many messages get generated per second?
19:52:58 <sorear> it's in the 10^-4 s range
19:53:12 <jmpc_> mmm, you say message generation for chose a random message from the db?
19:56:45 <sorear> jmpc_: no
19:57:16 <sorear> jmpc_: I mean stuff like Grum, the hippogriff, claws you but doesn't do any damage.
19:57:34 <sorear> or better yet
19:58:00 <sorear> Grum, the hippogriff, appears to be confused.  Grum, the hippogriff, claws the orc priest but doesn't do any damage.
19:58:10 <jmpc_> :(
19:58:12 <sorear> bonus points if you correctly handle reflexive verbs
19:58:14 <sorear> "itself"
19:58:51 <sorear> itself is a simple pronoun in English; my spanish is a bit rusty, but I think you'd have to actually change the verbs to make claws itself work there
19:58:53 <jmpc_> the message generation is a big problem for translations :(
19:59:10 <felirx> and think about Finnish
19:59:18 <felirx> with oru billion different bendings of words
19:59:23 <sorear> I don't know Finnish at all
19:59:28 <due> felirx: That entire line would be one long word, would't it"? ;)
19:59:45 <jmpc_> i'm only know spanish, and so so...
20:00:17 <felirx> me = minä. hits me = lyö minua. missed me = ei osunut minuun. and so on
20:02:22 <jmpc_> begin thinking about canned phrases for other languages...
20:02:31 * LordSloth runs in fear from the language lessons
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20:05:15 * Madtrixr enjoys the language lessions
20:15:34 <jmpc_> Building:
20:15:34 <jmpc_> * cd to the source directory (you can safely ignore the dolinks.sh and
20:15:34 <jmpc_> domake.sh scripts).
20:15:57 <jmpc_> I not understand.., i need execute dolinks.sh and domake.sh, true?
20:16:46 <jmpc_> (if i ignore the step and type make i get  make: *** No targets specified and no makefile found.  Stop.
20:19:27 <felirx> what system are you  building on?
20:19:57 <jmpc_> linux
20:20:26 <felirx> you just want to cd to the source directory and run make debug or make wizard
20:20:34 <felirx> with TILES=y or without
20:21:16 <jmpc_> Ok.
20:21:54 <sorear> your english is remarkable for someone who doesn't know it
20:22:03 <sorear> way better than Google Translator's
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20:24:03 <jmpc_> i use google translator continually :D
20:24:44 <jmpc_> i can read some technical papers only.., the rest is difficult to me
20:25:03 <jmpc_> but thanks
20:31:20 <Fangorn> If you start by translating all the hardcoded English messages, by the time you're done with that, you'll be able to speak perfect crawl English
20:31:52 <jmpc_> :P
20:32:28 <jmpc_> I compile the game without problems.
20:33:06 <jmpc_> Now i study the code for doing first: loaded files translations and later hardcoded english messages
20:33:15 <jmpc_> Last of all message generation.
20:33:23 <jmpc_> Is a good way?
20:35:47 <due> Message generation is all over the plkace.
20:37:03 <jmpc_> is feasible add a new module and ask for messages to him?
20:37:05 <Fangorn> jmpc_: are you familiar with the GNU gettext projct?
20:37:19 <Fangorn> jmpc_: are you familiar with the GNU gettext project?
20:37:51 <Fangorn> http://www.gnu.org/software/gettext/
20:38:00 <jmpc_> No good and no directly. I use it the later days but with a very small python app
20:38:47 <jmpc_> Note: gettext maybe don't work with text generation.
20:39:28 <jmpc_> and you need another mechanism than gettext for load translated data files
20:39:38 <jmpc_> (i think it)
20:55:32 <sorear> also, if you use gettext in crawl, neunon will visit your house with a baseball bat
20:56:37 <jmpc_> na.., i live far... very far
20:56:46 <neunon> I'll spare no expense.
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20:59:34 <Kyuuketsuki> jmpc_: You should know people let me pay people like neunon to break the kneecaps of people that use gettext
20:59:40 <Kyuuketsuki> :3
21:00:22 <jmpc_> ok, ok.., no gettext ;)
21:00:46 * due laughs.
21:16:27 <due> Submerging is now pointless.
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21:27:30 <sorear> Fleeing is the new submerging.
21:27:34 <sorear> @? sea snake
21:27:34 <Gretell> sea snake (11S) | Speed: 12 (swim: 40%) | HD: 10 | Health: 40-90 | AC/EV: 2/15 | Damage: 2405(strong poison) | Flags: amphibious, cold-blooded | Res: 06magic(40) | Chunks: 09poisonous | XP: 755.
21:27:41 <sorear> they're as fast as unseen horrors
21:28:37 <due> But monsters will approach, end up in deep water, and submerge and not bother coming near you.
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22:21:42 <purge> !whereis kefka
22:21:42 <Henzell> No games for kefka.
22:21:46 <purge> !whereis kefka810
22:21:46 <Henzell> kefka810 the Orcish Blade (L21 HOFi), a worshipper of Okawaru, last saved on Lair:1 on 2010-04-08 after 70760 turns.
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22:43:01 <jmpc_> Guys, thanks for your help. Bye bye.
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23:57:45 <ixtli> lol the translation discussion was fun
23:58:02 <ixtli> sorear: neunon: I'm sure I could write a /wrapper/ for him XP
23:58:31 <neunon> oh dear god no.
23:58:36 <ixtli> hahahaha
23:58:42 <ixtli> Good morning!
23:58:49 <neunon> good evening.
23:58:58 <ixtli> Yeah I guess it's 2pm here anyway.
23:59:11 <neunon> 10pm here :)
23:59:22 <due> 3pm here :)
23:59:43 <ixtli> :o Due you live the closets (or furthest) from me!