00:07:41 !lg doy 00:07:41 777. doy the Cutter (L4 HERe), worshipper of Cheibriados, slain by Crazy Yiuf (a +4,+4 quarterstaff of chaos) on D:3 on 2010-03-27, with 199 points after 4086 turns and 0:10:58. 00:07:46 No splat? :p 00:07:49 It doesn't count then :P 00:07:53 (: 00:08:45 I had a fair bit of trouble with Grum recently 00:08:49 Well, more with his war dogs 00:09:06 If you're caught in the open it's definitely panic button time 00:09:11 his war dogs were already scattered all around the level by the time i found him 00:09:17 so that wasn't an issue 00:09:38 They should stay close to him 00:10:02 D&D should also stay next to each other, half the time I kill the other one and hear a scream of rage from halfway across the level :P 00:10:06 yeah 00:10:47 first centaur of the game on d:12 00:10:51 what's up with that 00:13:24 Maybe you got extra orc priests in your raisin bran to compensate! 00:15:09 @??unseen horror 00:15:09 unseen horror (06x) | Speed: 30 | HD: 7 | Health: 21-56 | AC/EV: 5/10 | Damage: 12 | Flags: see invisible | Res: 06magic(28) | XP: 746. 00:22:52 ??archer statue 00:22:52 archer statue[1/1]: A statue that shoots missiles at you, resists a lot of things and can't be disintegrated. 00:23:43 How many arrows does it have 00:23:55 looked like 20 or so 00:25:31 Heavy armour monk? :) 00:25:36 nope 00:25:41 :( 00:26:13 I should try another of my legendary GhWn heavy-armour-unarmed allrune attempts 00:26:18 So far my record is perfect 00:26:18 haven't played a serious game in a while, need to get warmed up 00:26:19 (: 00:26:30 I have splatted each attempt grandly 00:26:43 !lg greensnark char=ghwn 00:26:44 12. greensnark the Gusty (L1 GhWn), slain by a kobold (a +0,+0 club) on D:1 on 2010-03-23, with 50 points after 11 turns and 0:00:12. 00:26:48 how grand 00:26:56 !lg . GhWn xl>10 00:26:56 2. greensnark the Middleweight Champion (L27 GhWn), worshipper of Okawaru, blasted by a red draconian annihilator (crystal spear) in the Abyss on 2008-08-08, with 704512 points after 150958 turns and 20:31:37. 00:27:10 Pretty grand, I had found 14 runes :P 00:27:19 (: 00:27:30 !lg . GhWn xl>10 -2 00:27:30 1. greensnark the Boxer (L27 GhWn), worshipper of Okawaru, slain by a guardian mummy on Tomb:3 on 2007-06-13, with 1347015 points after 118607 turns and 17:43:13. 00:27:36 Oh right. That too 00:27:45 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 00:44:55 since when do death yaks actually show up in lair d: 00:45:14 They can be at the entrance, even. 00:45:16 all the time actually 00:49:36 ahaha, full scren of orcs a troll etc. in mines.. double ozu refidge = all dead 00:51:01 refridge in orc mines is classic yeh 00:58:49 -!- marcmagu1 has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:59:48 -!- ortoslon has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:00:13 explore_hungry = true (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1207) by myradiogalaxy 01:05:22 -!- marcmagus has joined ##crawl-dev 01:12:37 ??gauntlets 01:12:37 gauntlets[1/1]: Pairs of gloves have a 50% chance of being described as pairs of gauntlets in trunk. 01:13:07 Need YAFM for hitting Frederick with wielded gauntlet 01:13:17 !lm uniq=Psyche 01:13:21 42. [2010-03-27] bookofjude the Slinger (L10 HaHu) killed Psyche on turn 9491. (D:8) 01:13:26 Er. 01:13:31 ??YAFM 01:13:35 yafm[1/1]: yet another funny message 01:13:38 !lm uniq=Psyche x=game_id 01:13:38 42. [2010-03-27] [game_id=655487] bookofjude the Slinger (L10 HaHu) killed Psyche on turn 9491. (D:8) 01:13:46 !lm x=game_id 01:13:47 2386. [2010-03-30] [game_id=0] bookofjude the Slingshot (L15 HaHu) reached level 4 of the Orcish Mines on turn 28081. (Orc:4) 01:14:00 Oh, that was anothe game. 01:14:25 due: are you on the way to ascending in your current game? 01:14:30 !whereis due 01:14:31 bookofjude the Slingshot (L15 HaHu), a worshipper of Trog, is currently on Orc:2 after 29875 turns. 01:14:34 !whereis bookofjude 01:14:35 bookofjude the Slingshot (L15 HaHu), a worshipper of Trog, is currently on Orc:2 after 29875 turns. 01:14:46 looking good! 01:14:47 Thinking about it. 01:17:46 lair going much better now that i found a pair of gloves 01:27:13 -!- ortoslon has joined ##crawl-dev 01:29:06 aw, no shoals this game 01:31:00 moin guys! 01:31:13 Yeah, I've Snake and Swamp. 01:31:29 omg - 633k hits with 51k visits! 01:34:14 so I'm working on a more general weapon proposal, but I thought I'd put this little idea out: 01:34:37 removing demon weapon types, creation of "demonic" as a racial trait for weapons 01:36:48 "Ticktocktomancer"? 01:36:49 really? 01:36:50 d: 01:37:16 myuzinn: seems pretty reasonable to me 01:37:39 hmm just had another idea 01:37:54 smallfolk racial weapon trait 01:38:01 downsizes the weapon by one size category 01:38:12 probably would have to reduce base damage a bit as well 01:38:17 eh 01:38:24 not sure that one's really necessary 01:38:32 actually you're right 01:38:40 I just remembered the mess that was weapon sizes in incursion 01:38:43 icky icky 01:50:56 -!- Spads has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:05:29 bah, ocs guarding the entrance to swamp 02:06:24 I have an OCS somewhere in my game too, but I can't remember where 02:06:28 How appropriate for an OCS 02:11:33 wandering mushrooms are seriously one of my favorite monsters in crawl 02:11:35 (: 02:12:54 -!- by has joined ##crawl-dev 02:12:57 oh hey, didn't know crocodiles were submergers 02:12:58 (: 02:13:04 good morning 02:13:09 morning 02:13:18 greensnark: I have another shoals splat for you :( 02:14:30 this abraham thread doesn't seem to be terribly productive 02:14:35 nope 02:14:53 he showed up on irc and was about as productive 02:14:57 if you feel like reading logs 02:15:06 think I'll skip it :) 02:15:20 man, two death yak packs in lair 02:15:30 lair:1? 02:15:37 nah, 4 and 8 02:15:45 by: Oh, I saw it 02:15:45 no reason to complain then 02:15:52 I think I !told rob instead of by though 02:16:10 So did you miss the Lev warning or was that an act of charity :P 02:16:27 If it was an act of charity, you should play 0.6 release so it shows up in stats there :P 02:16:40 no, missed it; I'm pretty sure I checked flight status before blinking 02:16:59 runs out a lot faster now when slowed, too 02:17:21 For what it's worth I read the thread and it seems like it's become more about defense than productivity. 02:17:29 you got the message after you blinked 02:17:32 ixtli: yup 02:17:41 !tv 02:17:42 1591. rob, XL15 DGCr, T:43628 requested for FooTV. 02:18:40 So, out of curiosity, is it reasonable to assume that the only /shapes/ Tiles will ever need to draw are lines and rectangles? 02:19:25 possibly didn't see it because it wrapped with the regen message 02:19:27 While I'm waiting to discuss my wrappers being merged into master I decided to start making tiles draw triangles instead of quads. 02:20:24 I could see tiles flattening tile corners since that would fit well with the LOS model 02:21:06 I see. And that would be accomplished by drawing different shapes, not just with blending? 02:22:04 no idea; what I'm thinking of is cutting off triangles between mid-points of square sides 02:22:19 So you'd end up having to draw triangles anyway ... 02:24:12 I'm just trying to figure out a way to generalize shape drawing because as it stands there are nice vertex buffer objects, but type is rendered using a different struct to store box verts. 02:25:14 So I was thinking of modifying vertex buffers so that how it unrolled the shape you wanted to draw into verts was more easily modified. A nice side effect of this would be that using vertex buffer objects would become a bit easier. 02:26:09 think I'm not the right person to talk about this to 02:26:44 I mailed Enne, but I really just needed to bounce the thing about rectangles off of some one. 02:26:50 And you've answered that :D 02:27:15 btw, that DGCr game seemed to go strongly downhill when I switched leather armour for ring mail; not so much spellcasting success as melee performance 02:27:42 switching from war axe to broad axe might have been involved, too, however 02:35:02 i just ignore heavy armours now 02:35:08 -!- ortoslon has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:36:17 dodging is strictly superior currently imo 02:36:55 isn't equipment dependent, doesn't restrict attacks, doesn't restrict spellcasting, doesn't weigh the player down, etc etc etc 02:37:50 (all of which has always been true) 02:38:52 there was an actual tradeoff wrt dodging vs armour before 02:39:12 now dodging does everything better 02:43:25 -!- ortoslon has joined ##crawl-dev 02:45:17 yeah, we definitely overnerfed armour by a lot 02:57:33 ... 02:57:43 slime creatures still need to split more 02:58:18 Hm, they seemed to split up fine when I met them 02:58:47 i guess it was because i was also fighting a pack of ugly things 02:59:11 !lg x=dam 02:59:12 778. [dam=81] doy the Brawler (L16 GhMo), worshipper of Cheibriados, demolished by an enormous slime creature on Vault:1 on 2010-03-30, with 108322 points after 37685 turns and 3:16:15. 02:59:21 !tv 02:59:21 778. doy, XL16 GhMo, T:37685 requested for FooTV. 02:59:28 Ooh, enormous 02:59:47 i mean, there's no reason that there should have been able to be an enormous slime creature though 02:59:53 when i'm fighting them completely out in the open 03:00:20 Yeah, they merged in the Swamp as well 03:01:50 -!- ortoslon has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:01:51 yeah, they had plenty of room to unmerge there 03:05:26 -!- Spads has joined ##crawl-dev 03:06:12 can i force a xom-induced miscast effect in wizard mode? 03:06:51 &c wild magic could come close 03:07:43 you can draw the xom card 03:08:55 thanks 03:10:14 Xom is any effect, not just miscasts 03:10:18 so ... use &X 03:11:02 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 03:11:06 ASSERT(!crawl_state.doing_prev_cmd_again || (crawl_state.is_repeating_cmd() && crawl_state.repeat_cmd == CMD_PREV_CMD_AGAIN)) in 'main.cc' at line 4079 failed. 03:11:09 nice :P 03:13:19 morning all 03:16:09 the repeat code makes my head spin 03:16:41 seriously, what does that assert even mean 03:17:10 i was just holding down the repeat last command key, for &X 03:21:55 gmake wizard on freebsd always rebuilds everything saying "new build flags or prefix" 03:22:29 haha success http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=28410.msg1117205#msg1117205 03:25:24 doy, rofl; 03:25:43 wow, the bay12 forums seem like a pretty nice place 03:25:59 doy: <3 03:26:02 "this is lame" "spending 5k turns on D:1 to max TSO piety is lame" 03:28:51 ahpla: would you mind filing that on mantis? I tried cleaning up the repeat code a bit, but I obviously missed some usage patterns 03:29:55 sure 03:36:37 ahpla: btw, is that in 0.6 or 0.7? that assert being ignored in non-debug builds could easily explain kilobyte's starvation endless loop #587 03:38:12 0.7.0-a0-913-gae792c1 03:40:12 weird, git doesn't seem to now ae792c1 here 03:40:23 s/now/know/ 03:40:25 idea: what about enabling asserts in trunk games? 03:40:44 yes, I've wanted that, too 03:40:50 That would cost us a minor bit of CPU, for a lot of gain. 03:41:47 would need some #define massaging? 03:42:41 I guess so. 03:44:15 -!- ortoslon has joined ##crawl-dev 03:45:06 btw, have tiles players been happy with 0.6 performance? I've heard nothing at all 03:47:06 by: 400 fps! 03:48:35 a few places fail to compile due to assumption that asserts are ever run only in debug builds 03:49:50 yeah, but we could put those in #ifdef DEBUG, right? 03:50:00 or define a macro DASSERT 03:51:18 it might also be useful to have a variant of ASSERT that you can use instead of "if (! (some condition)) { ASSERT(false); return (whatever); } 03:51:19 #ifdef DEBUG;#define ASSERTS;#endif 03:52:20 I'm making it so you can compile with -DASSERTS which turns on asserts even in non-debug builds 03:52:29 kilobyte: how about we enable asserts unconditionally? Crawl is not a CPU hog on any current machine (except if it falls into an infinite loop, or with software 3D, and asserts affect neither) 03:54:08 sorear: not a bad idea. 03:54:34 I'll finish making it #ifdef ASSERTS everywhere though, so you can enable or disable it. 03:58:15 by: what'd you say about sorear's idea? Should I enable asserts by default? 03:58:34 I wouldn't mind 03:58:58 any asserts that trigger regularly should be fixed anyway during 0.7 03:59:20 there might be a couple of expensive asserts somewhere, but we can just but them inside #ifdef DEBUG if they show up 04:06:22 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 04:11:13 Crash when holding down repeat previous command key (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1208) by ahpla 04:15:31 uhm, why do we randomly use ASSERT() and assert()? 04:16:09 no idea 04:17:33 assert() is not included in many files at least ;D 04:17:51 just berserked an ogre (mace, ring mail, armour 1, maces 3): missed 4x, prevented by ring mail 2x, hit 3x 04:18:14 not sure if that was mostly bad luck? 04:18:33 -!- purge has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:21:50 My 0.7 agenda thread ;_; 04:22:43 yes, should have changed subject when replying to abraham 04:23:02 kilobyte: I like the idea of a tournament challenge race. Something like a Deeper Dwarf, which never ever heals and has a fixed amount of HP when starting, and never gets more. A variant might be a good way to handle this? (It could be also a good way to include Sprint in the tournament.) 04:24:26 by: I won't have the time to be a release manager unless I end up being unemployed (instead of a student) in June. :) I'm not sure if I have the skills to evaluate commits, but I could always ask here and in the ML about them. 04:27:20 I built trnk windows builds with the new menus (and zombie tiles!) Is CDO updated? 04:27:46 I was assuming doy might not want to do it again; I'm sure you'd manage :) 04:27:53 don't think cdo has been updated 04:30:10 of course, we should ask doy 04:30:28 doy, do you want to do 0.7? you did such a great job with 0.6 :) 04:32:08 felirx: Were you working on getting text selection in tiles earlier? 04:32:25 Hah, our very own trunk builds page had a crawl-ref.sourceforge link. 04:32:50 Yeah, doy would do a great job! :) 04:33:26 are you going to update CDO? If so, let me push asserts. 04:34:02 and if not... no one of you knows why assert() is mixed with ASSERT(), right? 04:34:54 I wonder if just blindly changing the former into latter would be a good idea. 04:35:32 Yeah, I'd build CDO now. 04:35:52 I have no idea what the difference between assert and ASSERT would be, except that the latter would obviously STAND OUT nicely in the code. 04:36:28 only tiles uses assert() ? 04:37:27 Likely a question for Enne, then. 04:38:59 the former uses libc's code which merely raises SIGABRT, the latter uses our code which writes the check that failed and triggers a dump 04:39:16 probably ok to replace assert by ASSERT 04:39:25 just do it, easy to revert if it's a problem 04:40:58 There is no function "assert( ... )" in the binary, i don't think. just ASSERT(bool, char const*) 04:41:09 I can do the tiles builds for testing in the same go. 04:42:13 ixtli: that's because libc's assert() is a macro 04:43:00 I see. I feel dumb asking this, but C++ is case sensitive when it comes to function names, yeah? 04:43:55 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 04:44:48 yes 04:45:53 the only case where identifiers get aliased is if they are very long and the early part is the same 04:46:08 C++ compilers are allowed to ignore everything after the first N characters 04:46:25 I forget what N is these days (it was 6 in K&R C, *shudder*) 04:49:34 is that the case any longer? Sounds like a terrible bug in the design. 04:50:17 especially with C++ name mangling, it would destroy all overloading 04:50:31 not a design bug so much as addressing limitations imposed an 8kb data segment limit 04:51:24 modern linux can handle arbitrarily long symbol names, but ld.so uses strcmp, so dynamic linking can be O(n^2) if you have lots of common prefixes... 04:51:37 dunno what the situation is like on windows 04:51:45 it would be saner to declare longer identifiers illegal 04:55:56 C89 and C99 guarantee only 31 characters, but the tightest limit imposed by compilers is MSVC's 2048 04:56:02 N = infinity in my 2008 copy of the C++0x draft 04:56:25 so at some point in the last 40 years they came to their senses 04:56:45 incidentally the same paragraph says that identifiers can contain any alphabetic Unicode character 04:58:52 that won't fly, Windows still doesn't do Unicode 05:00:05 and I think it's only Perl that allows non-ASCII letters in indentifiers, and even then it's off by default 05:00:33 Java and Haskell definitely do it 05:01:11 freed slaves are annoying 05:01:27 by: you often can abuse them to fight for you 05:03:21 -!- Spads has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:12:04 03kilobyte * r9145e07527b5 10/crawl-ref/source/ (9 files): "make ASSERTS=y" to force assertion checks even in non-debug builds. 05:12:05 03kilobyte * r90f83b5d8204 10/crawl-ref/source/makefile: For now, enable asserts in all builds. 05:12:08 03kilobyte * r8b243758b1ef 10/crawl-ref/source/ (directn.cc mon-cast.cc store.cc): Enable some more asserts. Some of these may be expensive. 05:12:08 03kilobyte * r0b96abeddb47 10/crawl-ref/source/ (tilemcache.cc tilereg.cc tilesdl.cc): Replace some (but not all) uses of libc's assert() by our ASSERT(). 05:13:27 Thanks kilobyte, builds in a sec.. 05:15:04 -!- Spads has joined ##crawl-dev 05:30:50 Master branch on CDO updated to: 0.7.0-a0-907-g0b96abe (18.0) 05:42:04 -!- by has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:42:07 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 05:48:01 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 05:56:30 ixtli: what do you mean by text selection? 05:56:55 I remember you saying you made it so that you could highlight text by waving the mouse around. 05:57:06 it's in trunk now 05:57:26 Ah ok, yeah I was away for a while, my bad. 05:57:33 look at CRTRegion, CRTSingleSelection and PrecisionMenu classes 05:57:39 Got it. 06:07:50 Why are freed slaves annoying? Do they kill stuff and steal xp? :) 06:08:08 I've found them perfectly tolerable since they can be displaced and are pretty easy to leave behind 06:11:38 felirx: I'm merging your changes with mine as we speak. 06:12:24 !whereis b0lt 06:12:25 2271. b0lt the Skirmisher (L3 DSCK), worshipper of Xom, mangled by a gnoll (a +1,+0 whip) on D:2 on 2010-03-30, with 68 points after 1076 turns and 0:03:13. 06:13:23 ixtli: I'll probably have to expand the menus to handle more stuff 06:13:42 Doesn't seem to conflict with anything I'm doing. 06:13:43 the starting menu will need something special to handle cases where the user has too many savegames 06:14:36 Keskitalo: I apologise for fucking up the 0.7 agendas :| 06:15:48 I'm getting debug.h:41:1: warning: "ASSERTS" redefined quite a bit ... 06:15:49 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 06:19:01 Keskitalo, felirx: how were the exams? 06:19:16 felirx: yes, scrolling. 06:19:31 it was a drawing exam ;( 06:19:36 uml 06:22:32 ew 06:23:08 Change silver statue to something more appropriate for summoning (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1209) by Lagus 06:23:20 03kilobyte * rb5a7564a4345 10/crawl-ref/source/debug.h: Don't redefine ASSERTS if it's already defined. 06:23:44 felirx: Actually it does kind of abut my changes. I've wrapped FreeType, but you don't seem to do too much different with it. 06:24:55 It only uses the methods provided by the tiles classes 06:29:37 !whereis greensnark 06:29:38 greensnark the Bludgeoner (L15 HuFi), a worshipper of Makhleb, last saved on Swamp:4 on 2010-03-29 after 32851 turns. 06:34:37 cao is spending a lot of CPU processing wiki spam 06:36:45 wiki spam? 06:37:26 Hellooo. 06:38:07 dpeg, I didn't get a chance to do the quiver thing today. Turns out that "work free day" = "work half the day, run around like a lunatic doing stuff the rest of it". 06:42:46 felirx: Ended up not being a big deal in the end. 06:43:58 syllogism: http://crawl.akrasiac.org/cooking/ 06:44:10 Or more to the point: http://crawl.akrasiac.org/cooking/RecentChanges 06:45:34 felirx: Nice changes :D Makes the menu much better. 06:45:37 nice 06:47:15 403! 06:47:24 !tell rax I've temporarily disabled cao/cooking/ since it was being spammed heavily and using a lot of CPU. 06:47:26 greensnark: OK, I'll let rax know. 06:47:30 Ah. 06:47:44 It didn't look like any real users were looking at it 06:48:59 :\ 06:49:07 Slings are so noice. 06:49:41 Wizmode? Really guys? 06:51:26 Siber: ? 06:52:05 EV + shields is great. 06:52:09 What you don't dodge you cna block. 06:52:42 Oh, I made a FR and people are taking in it in a totally tangental tangent 06:55:39 felirx: I can't reproduce this, but I don't think it has to do with the changes on my branch: http://sprunge.us/iKJY 06:55:48 due: quiver is not crucial. It is one of the more annoying bugs, though :) 06:56:33 Siber: I will reply later to it. 06:56:38 ixtli: did you find a case where there are nothing highlighted in the menu? 06:56:59 Probably, but it crashed before I could select anything. I'm trying to make it happen again. 06:57:09 Alright. I don't have time to prepare a coherent counter-coutner until after school anyway 06:57:10 dpeg: yes, I have found it annoying 06:57:32 ixtli: we managed to do that today on zennas laptop somehow 06:57:37 not sure what causes it yet 06:57:49 I will fiddle with it a bit in GDB. 06:58:24 the precisionmenu highlights the first entry by default, and there should be no way to remove highlights completely 06:58:34 but somewhere something goes wrong in this special case 06:59:04 hmmmm 06:59:14 I can reproduce it by hitting the up arrow key before moving the mouse. 06:59:21 yes 06:59:23 ixtli: That's a strange way to reproduce 06:59:35 xD 06:59:37 Sorry 06:59:48 Don't worry. I laughed. 07:00:18 Related, I always try the arrow keys before the mouse. If you know what I mean. 07:00:22 I once read a bug report filed by a person who said in the comments: "Jim and I tried to reproduce but we couldn't" 07:00:23 Which i think you do. 07:00:29 hahahah 07:00:36 try putting a break to newgame.cc:2857 07:00:42 yessir 07:00:43 and print out what is in prev_specie_index 07:00:52 Have we done our Mu_ initiation yet? 07:00:53 before I do anything? or after the crash 07:00:56 * due fetches the baby oil. 07:01:17 I thought we used pools of spinal fluid for initiations 07:01:26 What's all this baby oil stuff 07:01:34 before 07:01:54 It catches the break point when I hit the up arrow. 07:01:55 greensnark: Shh, that's just wehat it says on the packet. 07:02:01 on the case where you have the species screen open, but see no highlighted item 07:02:12 Mu_: :D 07:02:50 where is prev_specie_index defined 07:03:06 (gdb) p prev_specie_index No symbol "prev_specie_index" in current context. 07:03:19 in _construct_species_menu 07:03:22 Kobolds with exploding darts (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1210) by qui 07:03:26 hmm moment please 07:03:27 Keskitalo: at last I changed the topic. 07:03:28 the breakpoint should be the second last line of that function 07:05:42 I am in favour of removing the speed randomisation. 07:05:58 It doesn't do what it was supposed to do, and it has bad side effects. 07:06:03 Need to come up with something new. 07:06:42 felirx: I lied before. That breakpoint isn't getting hit. 07:06:47 dpeg: I think rob's suggeestion is still a ood one. 07:06:57 dpeg: Just have it only affectmovement, not action. 07:07:05 try adding the bp at 2855 then 07:07:07 and print the same 07:07:32 due: that would remove the worst problems, but still not solve any of the issues it was supposed to solve. 07:08:25 felirx: pasted result in PM 07:10:25 dpeg: I agree 07:11:04 So far the speed randomisation makes the game easier on balance, but still produces the odd double attack death to annoy players 07:11:45 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 07:11:57 I will miss the easy running away though :P 07:12:09 ouch, I like running away 07:12:33 I believe there's a good idea in there, but we need to look at it from different angles. 07:15:22 should there be a case where a menu is in a state where there are no entries highlighted at all? 07:15:29 the problem with randomizing just movement is you make the game strictly easier 07:16:31 so yes, better just to remove it completely 07:17:34 Well, randomising it to +0, +1. 07:17:53 syllogism: yes, exactly 07:17:58 off I go 07:18:02 Siber: cheers! 07:18:18 also, using the randomisation for fleeing can be annoying in itself 07:18:52 stabwound took the time to write a long and elaborate article, but he has the point. 07:18:55 !seen by 07:18:56 I last saw by at Tue Mar 30 10:41:45 2010 UTC (1h 37m 10s ago) quitting with message Quit: leaving. 07:19:46 :) 07:20:25 dpeg: It's a lot easier than pillar dancing :) 07:21:14 greensnark: but the monster will catch up soon again? 07:21:49 dpeg: Just route through a stair, even if the monster would catch up in two moves, using stairs will leave it behind :) 07:22:05 dpeg: Yeah, don't worry. :) Exam was ok, I might pass! I think I got out faster than felirx and aslakkar, they must have put more effort into it. :] 07:22:42 I find it funny how every added data to the Abraham thread, but he won't budge. 07:22:48 Do you say "budge"? 07:22:53 abraham? 07:22:59 syllogism: on c-r-d 07:23:04 dpeg: He came here and we apparently made him cry :) 07:23:09 -!- Alweth has joined ##crawl-dev 07:23:13 He was here? 07:23:24 Yes, Alweth == Abraham 07:23:34 Aha :) Speaking about the devil etc. 07:23:55 greensnark: what did you say, you insensitive thug? :) 07:23:57 can't find c-r-d now that the old homepage is gone :P 07:24:03 05:21 < Xiberia> The unfathomably ancient skeleton of a humanoid creature. It has hundreds of 07:24:05 syllogism: don't worry 07:24:07 05:21 < Xiberia> golden sigils etched onto its bones, and pulses with terrible, unholy power. 07:24:10 05:21 < Xiberia> BAD ESCAPE HATCH 07:24:13 +1 to Mu_ there 07:24:35 Yes, Mu knows how to create athmosphere. 07:24:48 I am happy we have competent people like him in the team. 07:24:51 Just how unfathomable is it anyway 07:24:59 very 07:25:00 I can fathom a lot of ancientness 07:25:19 greensnark is an insensitive bastard, yes. 07:26:28 I'm pretty sensitive! 07:26:42 * dpeg hugs greensnark 07:26:44 just wanted to tell you guys i survived that 07:26:45 When someone dies in Shoals, I laugh in a very sympathetic manner 07:26:47 and it was an awesome vault 07:27:06 Mu_: good flava, bad danga! 07:27:10 Xiberia: Not awesome enough, if you survived :P 07:27:16 greensnark, haha 07:27:39 It needs a "you.die()" trap just when you open the last doorway. 07:29:27 I don't think Crawl has an instadeath trap yet 07:30:09 (pokemon mystery dungeon has pitfall traps, which act like shafts if hit by the leader of a party, but instadeath the leader's allies, which are permanent and very hard to replace; that's the closest I can think of) 07:32:46 ais523: Crawl is antagonistic to instant deaths. 07:33:05 dpeg: yes, and that's a design principle I don't disagree with at all 07:33:12 Hey! 07:33:19 sorry, I know I'm acting against type here... 07:34:27 dpeg, Just wondering: is that winners page you linked to just for tournaments or something? 07:34:31 probably the closest Crawl has to an unexpected instadeath out of nowhere is the blade trap 07:34:32 The monsters-fight-well-out-of-LOS changes make Makhleb servants deadly 07:34:44 ais523: no, it's the from the full CAO winners list. 07:34:49 -the 07:34:56 dpeg: I think you pinged the wrong person 07:34:58 Not that I'm complaining, my Balrug wiped out a half dozen creatures while I huddled and rested for hp :P 07:35:06 100 wins in the tournament are unreasonable. 07:35:15 greensnark: but you lost so much XP! 07:35:16 Strange, it disagrees... 07:35:21 You should complain. 07:35:31 !gamesby elliptic 07:35:31 elliptic has played 330 games, between 20090801 and 20100330, won 91 (27.6%), high score 36620901, total score 236750797, total turns 9074505, total time 1004:34:35. 07:35:44 That's way different than 66%. What gives? 07:35:48 dpeg: 284 wins in 2009 tourney 07:36:01 Oh, you mean 100 wins for one person 07:36:10 YEah 07:36:51 Oh. I see... Henzell isn't keeping all-time records here, is that it? 07:37:16 Henzell knows everything that happened on the public servers as far as records are available 07:37:44 !gamesby elliptic start>20000101 07:37:45 elliptic (start>20000101) has played 330 games, between 20090801 and 20100330, won 91 (27.6%), high score 36620901, total score 236750797, total turns 9074505, total time 1004:34:35. 07:37:46 Henzell knows everything, beyond the time before time. 07:38:04 Why the win percentage difference then? 07:38:24 CAO only has wins after 0.4. 07:39:01 But Henzell says this is between August of last year and now. 07:39:31 I'm just trying to understand the data. 07:39:33 cao scoring page reports all wins, but it's split between released versions and alphas 07:40:31 !gamesby elliptic version=0.52 07:40:41 !gamesby elliptic version=0.5 07:40:58 try v=0.5 07:41:36 !gamesby elliptic v=0.5 07:41:37 No games for elliptic (v=0.5). 07:41:40 !gamesby elliptic v=0.52 07:41:41 No games for elliptic (v=0.52). 07:41:48 it's 0.5.2, anyway 07:41:53 elliptic (v=0.5.2) has played 148 games, between 20091012 and 20100312, won 32 (21.6%), high score 36620901, total score 106609285, total turns 3483108, total time 376:33:23. 07:41:53 !gamesby elliptic v=0.5.2 07:42:06 !gamesby elliptic v=0.5.1 07:42:06 elliptic (v=0.5.1) has played 55 games, between 20090801 and 20091012, won 29 (52.7%), high score 9988300, total score 69240951, total turns 2565978, total time 314:30:54. 07:42:23 elliptic is... scary. :) 07:42:24 !gamesby elliptic v=0.4 07:42:41 No games for elliptic (v=0.4). 07:42:48 A lot less scarier in recent versions, though. 07:43:08 *scary 07:43:28 !gamesby elliptic v=0.6 07:43:28 No games for elliptic (v=0.6). 07:43:36 -!- by has joined ##crawl-dev 07:43:41 I should say, recent version. 07:44:04 !lg elliptic s=cv / win 07:44:04 91/330 games for elliptic: 61/203x 0.5 [30.05%], 29/109x 0.6-a [26.61%], 1/18x 0.6 [5.56%] 07:44:05 !lg * elliptic s=name 07:44:05 Malformed argument: elliptic 07:44:10 !lg elliptic s=name 07:44:10 330 games for elliptic: 291x hyperbolic, 39x elliptic 07:44:13 please compare with hyperbolic 07:44:23 !lg * name=elliptic s=cv / win 07:44:23 26/39 games for * (name=elliptic): 26/39x 0.5 [66.67%] 07:44:33 !gamesby hyperbolic v=0.6 07:44:33 No games for hyperbolic (v=0.6). 07:44:33 elliptic plays as hyperbolic when he's not playing seriously 07:44:37 !gamesby hyperbolic v=0.5.2 07:44:37 yes 07:44:37 hyperbolic (v=0.5.2) has played 132 games, between 20091017 and 20100312, won 23 (17.4%), high score 36620901, total score 91347686, total turns 2651811, total time 290:41:28. 07:44:52 !gamesby hyperbolic v=0.5.1 07:44:52 hyperbolic (v=0.5.1) has played 32 games, between 20090901 and 20091012, won 12 (37.5%), high score 4733437, total score 25732983, total turns 966033, total time 106:23:20. 07:45:03 Alweth: so Henzell reports conflates elliptic and hyperbolic, unless you ask specifically. 07:45:10 For some reason, he won way more under .5.1 than .5.2 07:45:11 !lg * name=hyperbolic s=cv / win 07:45:11 65/291 games for * (name=hyperbolic): 35/164x 0.5 [21.34%], 29/109x 0.6-a [26.61%], 1/18x 0.6 [5.56%] 07:45:37 dpeg: What I don't understand is why that would lead to a higher win percentage than either of them has individually. 07:46:10 !gamesby * name=elliptic 07:46:10 * (name=elliptic) has played 39 games, between 20090801 and 20091228, won 26 (66.7%), high score 9988300, total score 58769567, total turns 2431242, total time 293:59:29. 07:46:11 I don't really care. 07:46:30 elliptic is damn good no matter what, and I am writing a math paper. 07:46:43 !lg * name=elliptic ktyp=winning min=turn 07:46:43 26. elliptic the Severer (L20 DDCK), worshipper of Makhleb, escaped with the Orb and 4 runes on 2009-08-29, with 5843550 points after 19043 turns and 5:55:28. 07:46:50 by, what's the difference between your command and !gamesby elliptic? 07:46:58 that's 66.7% including speed runs 07:46:59 !gamesby elliptic 07:46:59 elliptic has played 330 games, between 20090801 and 20100330, won 91 (27.6%), high score 36620901, total score 236750797, total turns 9074505, total time 1004:34:35. 07:47:09 !gamesby * name=elliptic 07:47:10 * (name=elliptic) has played 39 games, between 20090801 and 20091228, won 26 (66.7%), high score 9988300, total score 58769567, total turns 2431242, total time 293:59:29. 07:47:22 Using name=elliptic bypasses !nick aliases 07:47:23 !nick elliptic 07:47:23 Mapping elliptic = elliptic hyperbolic 07:47:35 Oh... 07:47:36 I see. 07:47:39 That makes sense. 07:47:47 14:45 <@dpeg> Alweth: so Henzell reports conflates elliptic and hyperbolic, unless you ask specifically. 07:48:15 !gamesby hyperbolic 07:48:15 hyperbolic has played 291 games, between 20090901 and 20100330, won 65 (22.3%), high score 36620901, total score 177981230, total turns 6643263, total time 710:35:06. 07:48:31 So the next question is, why do they have different win percentages? 07:49:10 by: It might be best to revert the speed randomisation: It did'n solve what we hoped it could solve, and it introduced new problems. The randomisation idea is interesting, but it seems we need a new insight. So reverting might be best. What do you think? 07:49:34 !nick hyperbolic 07:49:34 Mapping hyperbolic = 07:49:38 i just transferred a game on CDO to the latest version and got: Warning: Cannot find file "travel_stoppers.txt". (~/.crawlrc:574) 07:49:50 !nick hyperbolic 07:49:50 Mapping hyperbolic = 07:49:56 Ah, that explains it. 07:50:15 -!- casmith789 has joined ##crawl-dev 07:50:15 dpeg: I don't care; if you say it should go, it can go 07:50:23 Warning: Cannot find file "travel_stoppers.txt". (~/.crawlrc:199) 07:50:33 just loaded my game in trunk 07:50:44 dpeg: doy might have an opinion 07:50:44 can I ignore it? 07:51:00 casmith789: sure 07:51:04 thanks 07:51:08 -!- casmith789 has left ##crawl-dev 07:51:11 by: greensnark and syllogism are supporting the revert. 07:51:19 I thought you were the man behind it :) 07:51:34 doy: you around? 07:53:27 !gamesby * name=elliptic start>20090601 07:53:27 * (name=elliptic start>20090601) has played 39 games, between 20090801 and 20091228, won 26 (66.7%), high score 9988300, total score 58769567, total turns 2431242, total time 293:59:29. 07:53:53 !lg * name=elliptic s=char 07:53:53 39 games for * (name=elliptic): 4x DSBe, 3x SpEn, 3x MiFi, 2x DECj, 2x CeGl, 2x KeFE, 2x KeBe, 2x DrIE, 1x DEWz, 1x DSCK, 1x HuFi, 1x TrWr, 1x KoFE, 1x HuGl, 1x HEAE, 1x DDNe, 1x MfCr, 1x MDPa, 1x DDCK, 1x MDAr, 1x DSAE, 1x MDCK, 1x DrVM, 1x SENe, 1x HOPr, 1x DrAE, 1x DGCj 07:54:50 !lg * name=elliptic 07:54:50 39. elliptic the Conjurer (L16 DrVM), worshipper of Vehumet, mangled by a two-headed ogre (a +0,+0 giant spiked club) on Vault:5 on 2009-12-28, with 106308 points after 38051 turns and 4:16:16. 07:55:12 !lg * name=elliptic ktype=winning 07:55:12 26. elliptic the Executioner (L24 MiFi), worshipper of Trog, escaped with the Orb and 3 runes on 2009-12-27, with 1592697 points after 66022 turns and 5:57:36. 07:55:46 Mu_: Welcome to the team, thanks for the awesome work so far. :) 07:57:04 Has anybody had time to check Cryptic's DS patch (latest iteration) yet? 07:58:40 Keskitalo: when is it from? 07:59:05 the last patch I saw put the demonspawn effects in spells2... 07:59:17 you're free to apply that, of course :) 07:59:48 dpeg: the randomization works really well, but to make crybabies happy, what about applying it only to movement costs? 08:00:36 26th, let me check the insides.. 08:00:45 kilobyte: And only +0, +1 (no -1)? 08:02:28 does 0, +1 mean that monsters are slightly faster than before on average? or slightly slower? 08:02:42 either could lead to issues 08:02:47 I'm not sure if you want to give monsters extra speed (thus making running not a good idea) or slowing them down (making kiting an easy but laborious grind) -- but both ersions are bad ideas IMO. 08:02:58 kilobyte: I really loved how the randomisation made monsters look less mechanical. 08:03:05 by: Looks like the demonic guardian is still in spells2.cc 08:03:05 dpeg: exactly 08:03:07 Need to run now.. 08:03:08 kilobyte: but I don't think that stabwound is a crybaby. 08:03:20 Keskitalo: I discussed that with cryptic on march 27 08:03:22 by: do you think that the DS patch did something wrong? 08:03:23 and running away is no longer about gaining that precious gap 08:03:34 dpeg: he has a valid point wrt double smiting 08:03:35 http://tozt.net/crawl/%23%23crawl-dev-20100327.log 08:03:42 by: for me? 08:03:53 find spells2: that's the last time we talked about the patch 08:04:10 dpeg: but removing mechanical tricks to gain the gap are a wonderful thing 08:04:14 kilobyte: restricting to movement costs would also be fine by me. 08:04:41 someone already coded a version of that some time earlier, too 08:04:45 yes, by 08:06:48 what about merging that branch and seeing how it improves things? 08:07:17 I think there were issues in that branch; the noticing cost in particular may not actually do what it's supposed to 08:07:45 pretty much dropped it because of lack of interest in the issue 08:08:57 the version of speed randomization I tested made gaining the gap trivial by just pillar-dancing until you had a gap 08:09:03 has that been fixed in the new version? 08:09:27 does anyone know what the expected number of turns is for the random +1/0/-1 change to reach +10? 08:10:47 by: no, my stochastics course is too long ago 08:11:12 by: re Cryptic: what to do? Would be very bad to lose his work. 08:11:18 I would like to go with +0/+1 if we want to change anything; but then we need to do something like if (one_chance_in(100)) energy_loss--; 08:11:38 it's not lost, the patch is there, right? 08:11:52 http://www.hackles.org/cgi-bin/archives.pl?request=66 stochastic! 08:12:09 another issue with making monsters slightly faster is that it completely throws off the balance of summoning, as it was one of the easiest ways to gain a gap 08:12:15 (summon, displace the monster behind you) 08:13:15 that's not a bad thing in itself, but it does have the issue of needing a lot of testing to rebalance afterwards 08:13:16 I don't think that would be a problem, but we'd see 08:13:47 that's the reason I always memorised spammals when playing a wizard 08:13:56 for the gap-building opportunity 08:14:07 and spammals also are handy for getting rid of early threats <3 08:14:13 by: I believe we need a change to randomisation. Before a full revert, we should definitely try your version. 08:14:14 if you get a gap that lasts 40 turns, it's still good 08:14:23 yes, if you're within 40 spaces of the stairs 08:14:35 else you can summon again? 08:14:43 hmm, I suppose so 08:14:54 you normally take damage every time you try that trick, though; and it's no use unless the monster's actually next to you 08:15:08 so it's a case of "ok, I can only survive one more hit, I need to spammals and run" 08:15:26 spammals, step, spammals, step, spammals, step? 08:15:44 by: I'm assuming that whatever you're fighting can kill a spammal in one hit 08:15:50 otherwise, you probably don't need to run from it :) 08:16:50 so if you spammals when not adjacent, you take a turn summoning, it takes a turn killing your spammal, no change except you have less MP 08:17:26 there's a gap 08:17:40 you can walk through a second spammals 08:18:03 don't know, really; it doesn't sound like a big problem to me :) 08:18:52 hmm, maybe 08:19:09 beforehand, in Crawl there were three speed situations to handle: faster enemy, equal-speed enemy, slower enemy 08:19:24 this would change it to just faster and slower, which is a major change in the way the game works 08:21:05 no 08:21:17 wouldn't 0,+1 make pillar dancing completely unviable 08:21:54 it depends on how fast you regenerate 08:22:19 in the extreme case, imagine a pillar-dancing troll that takes less damage from the occasional monster attack while pillar-dancing than it regenerates before the monster catches up to it again 08:26:56 what sounds like a reasonable average number of turns for an extra move? 08:29:08 by: this is with 0,+1? It will lead to more tedium :) 08:29:18 Less tedium that pillar dancing, granted, but still. 08:29:22 hmm? 08:31:08 -!- hotsun has joined ##crawl-dev 08:31:42 by: if you can expect a free move after, say, 30 turns, players will do exactly that :) 08:31:51 the monster gets a free move 08:32:00 ah, sorry 08:32:04 that is completely okay, of course 08:32:12 the question is, how often 08:32:17 20-30 turns? 08:33:56 if we do if (one_chance_in(x)) energy_cost--; they'll get an extra move every 10*x turns on average, and at most every 10 turns 08:34:06 hm 08:34:15 dpeg: it's not true that speed randomization didn't solve what we hoped it would 08:34:22 it solved things quite well 08:34:22 is knowing that after an extra turn, you get 9 safe turns a problem? 08:34:23 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 08:34:26 just introduced other issues 08:34:48 i'd be pretty disappointed in going back to no randomization at all 08:35:03 I'm fine with leaving 0.6 be, and testing the slightly increased monster speed in 0.7 08:35:56 also, stabwound's feedback is certainly valuable, but based on just one game as far as I can tell 08:36:04 what was that feedback? 08:36:05 yeah 08:36:34 i mean, it really doesn't seem to have had a significant impact on win rate 08:36:35 by: your approach with one_chance_in(x) is good 08:36:35 it'd be unfair to the napking to revert just for this 08:36:50 by: we don't want monsters randomly getting two extra moves twice in a row 08:36:56 unfair to the napking? 08:37:20 Has Napkin resorted to exploiting the randomisation to finally score a win? :) 08:37:26 in particular, forcing the extra turn gained to only be a move really would make it not solve what we hoped it would 08:37:34 whoa? 08:37:35 ais523: wiki, recent changes, top spot 08:37:43 ah, I was looking in the wrong place 08:37:44 thanks 08:37:53 Napkin: :) just stabwound's reaction seems so much like your initial reaction 08:38:02 yeah 08:38:12 Napkin: if stabwound says the same thing and we revert, that seems weird 08:38:16 tried talking to him - but didn't come through 08:38:26 Well, stabwound wrote a treatise about it :) 08:38:32 nah, go ahead 08:38:41 i've decided to shut about such design-decisions ;) 08:38:55 no, let's do the monster speed thing 08:38:57 should revert for 0.6 and try other solutions in 0.7 08:39:14 I'm against reverting for 0.6 08:39:28 maybe for 0.6.1 in a month or two 08:39:38 -!- Amonchakad has joined ##crawl-dev 08:39:43 doy: it doesn't have much impact on win rates, that's true. But losing a game due to double-smite is still not fun. 08:39:49 Monsters fire wands of draining at undead players...that's meant? 08:40:13 They could be smarter, sure. 08:40:13 * Napkin pokes dpeg * What did you do with David?! 08:40:15 dpeg: but how often has that actually happened? 08:40:30 Napkin: what did I do with me? 08:40:42 you are not the same David :-P 08:41:10 doy: it is like creating a rare, but very powerful trap, which can instantly kill. Let's call it Blades trap. It will only abort games very rarely. Is it a good idea? 08:41:21 Napkin: I have wimped out! :O 08:41:22 have we gotten any other negative feedback about this at all other than from stabwound? 08:41:25 yes 08:41:37 doy: but I don't care so much about whining players. 08:41:51 Every somewhat drastic change leads to whining. 08:41:55 there's been tons of negative feedback, actually. Mostly uninformed but regardless 08:42:32 the other part of the trouble is that all the other suggestions to deal with the pillar dancing issue are just so terrible 08:42:41 doy: yes 08:43:18 i think randomization in some form is the right general solution 08:43:31 doy: I agree and I said so very ^ 08:43:31 by the way, what did you do about the characters that required pillar dancing to survive the early game? 08:43:48 ais523: this is not the type of reasoning we accept. 08:43:53 you could make monsters occasionally shout, though it probably wouldn't accomplish much 08:43:58 dpeg: I know, I'm thinking along different lines 08:44:05 syllogism: yeah, solutions like that are what i'm talking about 08:44:06 If a background is too weak, we'll boost or remove it. 08:44:08 pillar dancing being impossible is good (the current change doesn't accomplish that) 08:44:21 ais523: we never wanted to make it impossible 08:44:22 what I meant was, have you been boosting the backgrounds already, or are you planning to in the future 08:44:25 If a combo is awkward, we don't care. 08:44:35 doy: hmm, ok 08:44:53 perhaps, make it nicer on the interface instead; you could have a pillar-dance button 08:44:55 ais523: there has been no systematic examination of backgrounds. 08:44:59 ais523: no 08:44:59 i mean, there's only so far you can go before removing pillar dancing becomes removing the ability to run away 08:45:05 -!- Amonchakad has quit [Quit: Page closed] 08:45:05 yes 08:45:32 i think the current solution does a good job of minimizing pillar dancing without removing the ability to run away 08:45:36 doy: pillar dancing := running in circles so as to gain MP or HP ? 08:45:40 yeah 08:45:44 whereas 08:45:57 running away := trying to get away from a monster 08:46:06 yeah 08:46:13 running for the stairs or whatever 08:46:15 A very clean solution would be: no healing while moving 08:46:22 ugh :P 08:46:26 i disagree d: 08:46:26 the only bad thing about that is forcing players to press 5 all the time 08:46:38 it would make early game impossible :P 08:46:44 or just completely luck based 08:46:44 yeah, that just seems like all sorts of tediousness 08:46:46 doy: it highlights the distinction between pillar dancing and running away 08:46:47 well, it would prevent pillar dancing without preventing running 08:47:00 which means that there are ways to distinguish them; the issue is the side-effects 08:47:16 and nerf trolls pretty hard 08:47:22 another solution (which would be even worse) would be giving healing for exploration 08:47:31 you're right, that would be even worse 08:47:45 There are games which do that, but you cannot apply this to a monster like Crawl. 08:47:53 it would be possible to reduce regen rate by base regen rate when moving 08:48:06 that would restrict pillar dancing to trolls, etc 08:48:07 hmm, so trolls can pillar-dance but humans can't? 08:48:33 and deep dwarves bleed when they move :) 08:48:37 hehe 08:49:11 that would be quite a DD nerf... 08:49:19 the thing i like about the current situation is that it doesn't eliminate pillar dancing, just makes it not completely safe 08:49:19 doy: I am not advocating moving=>no-regen. I am just trying to prove that it is possible to hurt one (dancing) without hurting the other (flight). 08:49:29 i don't think we want to eliminate pillar dancing 08:49:35 I am not so sure about that. 08:50:00 I dance jellies and sometimes MP. 08:50:25 well, jellies are speed 9 08:50:29 yes 08:50:36 it's only a problem on the first two, maybe three levels and not a huge problem really 08:50:42 so that's not pillar-dancing, that's kiting 08:51:01 syllogism: I've asked good players, and they told me that the only monster they dance often is the ogre. 08:51:18 dpeg, same here, and maybe orc warriors :) 08:51:19 well i do dance all the time on d1 08:51:26 I believe that underpowered backgrounds should be improved and that getting rid of pillar dancing is good. 08:51:51 hmm, I hardly danced at all before speed randomisation came in, now I do it a lot 08:51:55 I agree. 08:51:58 so it definitely needs tweaking 08:52:05 and yes, I agree with dpeg here too 08:52:08 ais523: i don't see how that's related 08:52:24 doy: hmm, now you say that I'm not sure it is either 08:52:41 how fast does an XL:1 player regenerate? 08:52:43 part of it's due to assuming ogres are faster than me, for some reason; I never tried to dance them as a result 08:53:32 once every 5 turns or so? 08:53:44 maybe regen rate shouldn't depend on maxhp so strongly 08:54:08 The current randomisation reduces the need for pillar dancing by making it a lot easier to run away 08:54:22 I like this aspect, but it does make the game easier :) 08:54:54 i'm okay with that 08:54:59 The only reason players pillar dance is because they can't get away from the monster; the randomisation makes it possible to skip and run within a few dozen turns 08:55:32 It just saved my life against an ogre I ran into first thing on level 4. 08:55:38 Woo! 08:55:40 <3 <3 <3 08:55:42 !lg * Shoals 08:55:53 Cmon Henzell 08:55:54 125. aleksiL the Destroyer (L16 DEWz), worshipper of Vehumet, slain by a merfolk impaler (a +2,+2 trident of reaching) on Shoals:5 on 2010-03-30, with 125745 points after 60319 turns and 11:51:01. 08:55:58 greensnark: do you have some sort of bot set up to notify you of deaths in Shoals? 08:56:08 ais523: I have it on hilight, yeah :P 08:56:20 brilliant 08:56:34 ais523: That bot is Henzell, and it notifies all of us. 08:56:46 !lg * cv=0.6 place=Shoals 08:56:47 5. aleksiL the Destroyer (L16 DEWz), worshipper of Vehumet, slain by a merfolk impaler (a +2,+2 trident of reaching) on Shoals:5 on 2010-03-30, with 125745 points after 60319 turns and 11:51:01. 08:56:53 5 shoals deaths already 08:57:02 !lg * cv=0.6 ktyp=winning 08:57:02 5. nht the Spry (L25 DGTm), escaped with the Orb and 3 runes on 2010-03-30, with 1307349 points after 116030 turns and 12:36:43. 08:57:04 !lg * 0.6 place=Snake|Swamp|Shoals s=br 08:57:04 13 games for * (0.6 place=Snake|Swamp|Shoals): 6x Snake, 5x Shoals, 2x Swamp 08:57:04 Alweth: I mean, I wouldn't expect greensnark to be spending all his time with an eye on ##crawl waiting for someone to die there 08:57:13 Damn Snake keeps edging ahead 08:57:15 ais523: you wouldn't? 08:57:17 (: 08:57:20 !lg * cv=0.6 place=shoals -tv 08:57:21 5. aleksiL, XL16 DEWz, T:60319 requested for FooTV. 08:57:40 !lg * 0.6 s=br 08:57:40 2417 games for * (0.6): 2328x D, 36x Lair, 25x Orc, 6x Vault, 6x Snake, 5x Shoals, 2x Crypt, 2x Temple, 2x Hive, 2x Elf, 2x Swamp, 1x Slime 08:58:03 This splat was richly deserved for term size alone 08:58:04 2xTemple? seriously? 08:58:21 !lg * cv=0.6 place=Temple 08:58:21 s=br may not be what you think it is 08:58:22 2. Morri the Chopper (L7 MiCK), worshipper of Xom, slain by a hellwing (summoned by Xom) in the Temple on 2010-03-30, with 859 points after 4461 turns and 0:20:56. 08:58:36 !lg * 0.6 Temple -2 08:58:37 1. Moose the Ducker (L2 SpFi), quit the game in the Temple on 2010-03-28, with 28 points after 734 turns and 0:03:19. 08:58:41 i bet high term size players have a much lower winrate :P 08:58:50 ok, I was wondering about quits 08:58:52 syllogism: You'd be right! 08:58:55 and the other seems to be Xom's fault 08:58:56 !lg * win max=termmsize 08:58:57 Unknown selector: termmsize 08:59:04 !lg * win max=termsize 08:59:04 Unknown selector: termsize 08:59:07 aww, pity 08:59:21 I have this voodoo doll on my desk that I stick with pins whenever I spectate a large terminal player 08:59:30 haha 08:59:52 what about people using terminals smaller than 80x24? 08:59:57 They're ok 09:00:01 haven't seen any :P 09:00:04 is that even possible? =p 09:00:05 greensnark: you should read player crawlrcs into henzell, so we can query for winrate v. targeting options 09:00:05 crawl has a minimum of 80x24 09:00:10 as far as i know 09:00:17 doy: I've seen some playes with 78x24 and such 09:00:20 hmmm 09:00:22 wierd 09:00:46 I don't know if they resized after starting game or whether the 80x24 min check is gone 09:01:12 ??regeneration 09:01:12 regeneration[1/5]: Increases the rate at which you regain HP per turn, at the expense of more nutrition. Different sources stack and vary in effectiveness. The default hunger rate for most races is 3 nutrition per turn. A ring of regeneration takes that to 6 per turn. Regeneration doesn't work when you're {sick}; instead it makes Sickness disappear faster. 09:01:23 ??regeneration[2] 09:01:23 regeneration[2/5]: The base regeneration rate is your maximum hitpoints / 3. If this number is over 20, then divide the result by two and add ten. For example, 100 max health results in a regen rate of 26. RR accumulates every turn and for every 100 RR you gain, you regenerate 1 hp. For 1 hp per turn, 540 health is needed. For 1 hp per 2 turns, 240. 09:01:54 that sounds wrong 09:02:12 !source player_regen() 09:02:12 Couldn't understand () 09:02:15 !source player_regen 09:02:18 Lines pasted to http://paste.scsys.co.uk/41560 09:02:21 it steps down the part over 20 09:03:09 ok, just formulated weirdly 09:05:24 so turns/1hp is 100/RR is 300/maxhp disregarding the stepdown 09:06:11 and regen from the spell is +100RR? 09:06:23 -!- DrPraetor has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:06:40 at 60mhp, it's 5 turns per 1hp, so 10hp for a full rest 09:06:44 doy: yes 09:06:50 so 1 hp per turn 09:07:25 regen from ring is 40 09:08:20 up to 60mhp, resting from half health takes 150 turns 09:08:44 by: changing regeneration rates is definitely an option (it could be higher, but fade out under some circumstances etc.). But that's different from tweaking speed randomisation :) 09:09:13 if we hit pillar dancing hard, it might be a good idea to raise low level regenration a bit 09:09:19 by: yes 09:09:41 a melee hit on D:1 is frequently for 1/2 mhp 09:11:11 maybe increasing mhp at xl1 across the board would be another option 09:11:24 what's the average damage per attack that a hobgoblin with club does to 1. XL1 char in robe with a bit of dodging, 2. XL1 char in mail with a bit of armour? 09:11:39 ??club 09:11:39 club[1/1]: A heavy piece of wood that falls into the Maces & Flails category. Damage: 5. Accuracy: +3. Delay: 130. Can be thrown, usually at you. 09:11:43 @??hobgoblin 09:11:43 hobgoblin (07g) | Speed: 10 | HD: 1 | Health: 4-7 | AC/EV: 2/10 | Damage: 5 | Res: 06magic(1) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 2. 09:11:51 so d10 09:11:57 and chance to hit? 09:12:52 i'm not entirely convinced you can trust the reported debug mode hit rates; they seemed off 09:13:22 i'm not sure chance to hit is as relevant 09:13:49 doy: it is if I want to balance number of extra monster moves against regeneration 09:22:12 -!- hotsun has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <-] 09:23:20 why is base_hp stored as offsets from 5000? 09:23:40 heh 09:24:02 by: I'd be rather surprised if there was a good reason, knowing the typical way Crawl is written 09:25:03 and why is calc_hp in skills2.cc? 09:28:19 better than stuff.cc! 09:28:41 In a dream world, player would be a class with all these funny methods like calc_hp 09:33:21 by: why not move it to some better place? 09:36:34 there does seem to be a pretty strong "i play this for fun, not to win" sentiment among people responding to abraham 09:36:41 i wonder how true this is in general 09:37:25 I rarely play to win more than once, if ever 09:37:38 although if a game is fun, I keep playing it for that reason even after I've won 09:38:11 doy: playing a 4-runer is already in "I play for fun, not the win" territory. 09:38:37 dpeg: unless someone is going for a fourth rune because they aren't ready for Zot yet 09:38:41 yes 09:38:49 say, a character doing Tomb 09:38:58 You do that for fun, not to win. 09:39:19 I think that going for four runes and clearing elf would increase chance to win for most characters, not factoring in getting bored/inattentive 09:39:26 or the way I do the Abyss for fun, rather than to win 09:39:50 by: yes, 4-runer was a bad example 09:40:14 Isn't a game where you're not trying to win more of a sandbox than a game? 09:40:22 dpeg: on the other hand, I'm pretty sure that for easy characters, my win rate is better if I try to stay below say 80k turns 09:40:34 Alweth: hmm, I'd say it depends on whether you're trying to accomplish something 09:40:47 to me, aiming for 1 rune is a game of its own, and a victory condition I can relate to 09:40:52 and that takes me about 2 hours of Abyss-scumming 09:40:54 Alweth: players try to win under non-ideal circumstances 09:41:03 that is something completely different than sandboxing 09:41:09 Alweth: i don't see why that distinction is important 09:41:11 That's true. 09:41:47 Really, win rates are not the problem with Crawl. If at all, they're a bit too high. 09:42:12 !lg * / win 09:42:13 2386/578988 games for *: N=2386/578988 (0.41%) 09:42:22 -!- by has quit [Quit: later] 09:42:27 !lg goodplayers / win 09:42:30 1477/63615 games for goodplayers: N=1477/63615 (2.32%) 09:42:38 dpeg: I understand that you believe that. I don't understand why you believe that. What's wrong with an average win rate of <3%? 09:42:38 !lg . / win 09:42:39 22/778 games for doy: N=22/778 (2.83%) 09:42:41 wow, that's a low rate for goodplayers 09:43:01 !lg goodplayers xl>10 / win 09:43:04 1476/6208 games for goodplayers (xl>10): N=1476/6208 (23.78%) 09:43:27 many good players dont focus on winning 09:43:35 ais523: this rate does not matter at all, b/c no one of the "good players" subscribed to going for good rates. 09:43:43 For example, all my testing games are among there. 09:43:51 yeah, win rates are far too high! look at WoW, nobody, I repeat, NOBODY has won WoW! 09:43:55 dpeg: agreed, I think; although, I'm wondering /why/ people don't try to win Crawl that often 09:44:27 bhaak: you win wow when you press that unsub button 09:44:28 ais523: people try to win the game all the time. It's just that they're playing a game, not working a game. 09:44:30 bhaak: you could compare to KoL, where there are a huge number of people who could win any time they wanted to but haven't bothered to so far 09:44:38 So they're do all kinds of funny things in the game. 09:44:40 dpeg: I'm not sure I see the distinction 09:45:03 ais523: yeah, but what do you do in KoL, when you've won? hang out in a boring place. 09:45:11 felirx: good one :) 09:45:12 bhaak: or start again 09:45:14 dpeg: shouldn't we try to converge the difference between playing Crawl and working it? 09:45:21 felirx: have you ever been on that hook? 09:45:27 some things you can do to maximize your winrate either take time or are tedious 09:45:29 Alweth: we are 09:45:32 I have cleared black temple when it was hard. 09:45:33 that's pretty much exactly what you do in Crawl; either you hang around on D:1 or you go win and play again 09:45:36 dying on the first few dlevels isn't a problem for most players 09:45:50 03j-p-e-g * rb7059698861a 10/crawl-ref/source/ (5 files in 3 dirs): Add large quadruped zombie tile, tweak small one. 09:46:03 syllogism: exactly 09:46:20 syllogism: well, it is if it means you have to keep playing the first few dlevels repeatedly and get bored 09:46:48 felirx: I never understood the appeal of the whole MMORPG genre. Just from watching friends play, the games screamed GRINDFEST at me. 09:47:00 dpeg: Some players like grinding :P 09:47:03 yes 09:47:07 But I don't. 09:47:08 dpeg: I played it for pvp 09:47:10 but wow pvp... 09:47:11 It's a strange and morbid taste 09:47:22 I don't like grinding. 09:47:27 Just look at all the players who used to play mummies to >1M turns in Crawl :P 09:47:41 Also, I am not sure WoWers *really* like their grinding. From what I saw, it felt like work to them, but they kept going b/c of some reward. 09:47:45 grinding is bearable if it's something you can do without any attention to 09:47:54 all you need is two screens and 30gigs of unwatched movies/series 09:48:07 felirx: that's a very state for a game. 09:48:08 dpeg: yes, players often play Crawl because of operant conditioning. 09:48:12 +sad 09:48:18 And justify it after the fact as fun. 09:48:29 dpeg: I mean WoW, not Crawl. 09:48:34 ah 09:48:44 dpeg: Freudian slip there. hehe 09:48:46 dpeg: I saw an article a while back that said that MMORPGs tended to be based around grinding because all but the most skilled players get upset in MMOs based around skill, whereas basing it around grinding it's obvious what you have to do to get better 09:48:46 dpeg: there are people in WoW that only go their to pick flowers and sell them! or didn't you read about ultima online, the first real MMORP, where people came home from the real boring job to do a virtual boring job? if we were in it for the money, we would be doing it wrong :) 09:48:49 warhammer is a nice odditity 09:49:00 you can pvp from 1->31, and even to 40 on some classes 09:49:10 ais523: that sounds reasonable. Grinding also makes a lot of sense from a commercial POV. 09:49:22 dpeg: especially if you charge by the hour! 09:49:43 All of that means a free game like Crawl should do better. 09:49:50 I can tell you about Aion though... 09:49:54 so what's going on with zot defense 09:49:57 felirx: mummy grinding was a macroing exercise. If you really did it by hand... you're beyong help. 09:50:05 yes, and in Crawl, unlike in most MMORPGs, you aren't a failure if you're worse than half the goodplayers list 09:50:10 syllogism: nothing, it's fading out into unreality. 09:50:17 oh, thought there was a new version 09:50:18 bhaak: As someone who played UO, you're misunderstanding UO jobs. 09:50:50 felirx: and with macros, you could have several times as good xp:RL time ratio as with normal play 09:51:23 wow raiding in tbc on a paladin :D 09:51:26 syllogism: no. There are folks making new Sprint maps, though. And that is very exciting. 09:51:30 target tank, hit spam flashheal macro 09:51:33 collect loot 09:51:42 i thought i remembered someone saying they were going to try to rewrite zot defense 09:51:49 Crawl has issues, but winrates is not one of them. 09:52:04 doy: possibly, but nothing came out of it yet. 09:52:10 every game has issues apart from maybe pong and tetris 09:52:17 felirx: of course. 09:52:27 And Go. 09:52:39 my go has an issue. Never enough time ;( 09:52:51 What I like about the ongoing discussion is that players obviously have tastes: some only like the early game, some hate the early game... it's too small for some and too large for others. 09:53:03 Go is eternal, of course. 09:53:07 my issue is that I keep getting bored in the early-game and so never see the late game 09:53:20 Yes. I like the early game, except that it's often very generic, and I play it way too much. 09:53:32 ais523: that's okay but unusual. 09:53:39 yeah, early game is both erratically random and repetitive 09:53:46 Alweth: we have added stuff to the early game. 09:53:53 clearly, there should be an option to start with midgame, then onto early game, and finally endgame 09:54:07 there's an FR lying around somewhere to just let you start in the late-game, so I'm clearly not the only person who feels that way; although the stated method seems ridiculous 09:54:19 reverse crawl 09:54:20 dpeg: But the early game is always going to be more familiar than the late game, unless you start shuffling things. 09:54:24 you start at xl27 in god gear 09:54:30 and become xl1 by d1! 09:54:40 there's a variant of Angband where you start on the equivalent of Zot:4 09:54:47 Erik had a proposal for a species that starts at XL 14 (say) and does not level up. 09:54:59 with better-than-usual starting equipment and the ability to walk through walls, but otherwise at L:1 09:55:08 Alweth: that does not invalidate the fact that new content for the early game helps. 09:55:31 dpeg: I don't disagree. 09:55:38 Alweth: I only have read about it, not played. And I didn't mean to say that UO had only boring jobs, but there were apparently a lot of people who liked doing the jobs better than anything else. It was one of the first games were something like a virtual in-game market emerged (or at least one of the first where journalists noticed it) 09:56:31 -!- ais523 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:58:10 bhaak: In the original UO, the idea was to have a completely player-oriented economy. Players that had "boring" jobs fulfilled an important role as well as being unique in the society. The didn't spend 8 hours a day doing it, and the payoff was much greater than a normal job. 09:58:46 -!- eith has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:58:48 Their efforts actually mattered for the advance of the game, at least in theory. 09:59:05 like EVE Online does now? 09:59:23 Dunno. Haven't played it. Does sound interesting, though. 09:59:52 "but their work was virtual and they did it without getting anything in return", well, that was before ebay and WoW. that's why most journalists were surprised :) 10:00:57 bhaak: work is an arbitrary term in a game like that. Fighting monsters could be "work" and it likewise has no return on investment, in a real sense. 10:01:38 eve has the bast market system in any game ever made 10:01:59 especially the way you can manipulate it :D 10:02:14 UO was a good idea, poorly executed, and then they made the wrong decisions to try and help it. 10:02:38 UO's "failure" is the main reason most MMORPGs today are such travesties. 10:03:18 at one weekend, we bought all the industrial ships from the forge region (main marget hub) and then listed our own at about 500*going price 10:04:29 there's an azure jelly in the simulacrum swamp ending that just sits there getting itself killed on the freeze clodus 10:04:42 is there something wrong with cao's alpha scoring page? usually when I win it updates right away and I go there to browse my log. But my win just now isn't showing up 10:05:13 st_: the scoring pages are only updated every 15 minutes or something like that 10:05:41 is there any particular reason why azure jellies aren't amphibious? 10:05:47 I thought most jellies were 10:05:59 i thought only slime creatures were 10:06:09 regular jellies are I think 10:06:19 @??jelly 10:06:19 jelly (04J) | Speed: 9 | HD: 3 | Health: 15-30 | AC/EV: 0/2 | Damage: 808(acid) | Flags: amphibious, see invisible | Res: 06magic(12), 03poison, 08acid+++, asphyx | XP: 21. 10:06:27 @??ooze 10:06:27 ooze (15J) | Speed: 8 | HD: 3 | Health: 9-24 | AC/EV: 1/3 | Damage: 5 | Flags: sense invisible | Res: 06magic(24), 03poison, 08acid+++, asphyx | XP: 2. 10:06:33 @??brown ooze 10:06:33 brown ooze (07J) | Speed: 10 | HD: 7 | Health: 21-56 | AC/EV: 10/1 | Damage: 2508(acid) | Flags: sense invisible | Res: 06magic(65), 03poison, 08acid+++, asphyx | XP: 243. 10:06:41 @??acid blob 10:06:41 acid blob (11J) | Speed: 14 | HD: 18 | Health: 54-144 | AC/EV: 1/3 | Damage: 4208(acid) | Flags: sense invisible | Res: 06magic(168), 03poison, 08acid+++, asphyx | XP: 3852. 10:06:46 @??death ooze 10:06:46 death ooze (06J) | Speed: 12 | HD: 11 | Health: 33-66 | AC/EV: 2/4 | Damage: 3204(rot), 32 | Flags: 07undead, evil, sense invisible | Res: 06magic(117), 02cold, 03poison, 08acid+++ | XP: 1271. 10:07:07 in any case either azure jellies should become amphibious or this particular one needs its spawn point moved 10:07:10 looks like just jellies and slime creatures 10:07:12 it just sits there getting itself killed 10:07:13 !lg st_ win 10:07:13 No games for st_ (win). 10:07:16 !lg clouded win 10:07:17 15. clouded the Farming Annihilator (L27 DGCj), escaped with the Orb and 15 runes on 2010-03-30, with 7778947 points after 223999 turns and 17:01:38. 10:07:22 !lg clouded win x=v,src 10:07:23 15. [v=0.6.0-rc;src=cdo] clouded the Farming Annihilator (L27 DGCj), escaped with the Orb and 15 runes on 2010-03-30, with 7778947 points after 223999 turns and 17:01:38. 10:07:37 it was rc4 if that could matter 10:08:53 st_: did you *really* win? 10:09:03 st_: Scoring script wasn't running, I just started it 10:09:05 yeah, 45 mins ago 10:09:23 st_: just joking 10:15:14 I fixed a small bug on the mouse operable set, should I create a new item to attach the bug fix patch, or jam it to the existing item? 10:19:37 -!- Spads has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:24:21 felirx: no idea 10:24:29 just add it somewhere :) 10:24:49 http://www.student.oulu.fi/~jannelah/crawl/0001-Fixes-an-ASSERT-bug-in-PrecisionMenu.patch somewhere! 10:25:57 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 10:27:37 felirx: ? I am confused :) 10:28:30 you said add it somewhere, now it's somewhere! 10:29:36 ah! 10:29:42 You have to tell our coders, too! 10:30:02 (actually uploaded it there to test it on ixtli first) 10:32:19 greensnark: 'Farming Annihilator' ? 10:32:22 lolwut 10:33:04 -!- by has joined ##crawl-dev 10:34:14 I'd prefer annihilating farmer but what can you do 10:35:56 Berserk on casters is pretty nasty: silenced and cant' equip a weapon, followed by slow. Ouch1 10:37:29 Alweth: can just run away 10:38:37 !lg -tv 10:38:38 28. Alweth, XL6 KoIE, T:6391 requested for FooTV. 10:38:51 -!- murphy_slaw has joined ##crawl-dev 10:40:43 dpeg: were you here when it was proposed to add a D:0 with three down staircases to D:1 and nothing else? 10:40:49 Yeah, that didn't work. 10:41:05 -!- murphy_slaw has quit [Client Quit] 10:41:57 The distance gained by running while berserk was offset and more by being slow. 10:45:00 by: no. Was that for tutorial purposes? 10:45:40 by: ah, to make D:1 safer? 10:45:44 yes 10:46:09 to give skilled players more options, I think 10:46:21 I will start a series of a dozen (or so) random good combos in 0.7 today. 10:46:30 Is this (D:0) really needed? 10:46:45 not for tutorial at least. 10:47:18 D:1 random deaths were one of stabwound's major complaints 10:47:41 nothing makes your day better than an immortal hobgoblin 10:48:30 !lg Alweth -tv 10:48:40 28. Alweth, XL6 KoIE, T:6391 requested for FooTV. 10:49:39 by: I would want much more data before making D:1 significantly easier. 10:50:03 Attempts at perfect (early!) play, by good players, with random viable combos. 10:50:07 Alweth: If you'd attacked him instead of running you'd have killed him easily :) 10:50:14 It might be that some backgrounds are just not adequate for D:1. 10:51:36 greensnark:I hit him and did no damage, while taking lots of damage. 10:51:39 by: I would much rather address egos on D:1 directly (draining etc.) 10:51:48 I am very skeptical of that claim. 10:52:07 Alweth: rage works best if the player is raging alongside at the keyboard. 10:52:10 Alweth: You would have killed him easily 10:52:23 dpeg: if we remove pillar dancing on D:1, something else would have to be done, unless we say we don't care about D:1 survivability chance at all 10:52:23 !lg -tv 10:52:24 28. Alweth, XL6 KoIE, T:6391 requested for FooTV. 10:53:01 by: what are the monsters you pillar dance on D:1? 10:53:19 every speed 10 one 10:53:23 anything except snakes and cockroaches if a fight goes badly 10:54:04 syllogism: uhg 10:54:41 dpeg: what do you do with a fighter that's down to 5hp against a hobgoblin? 10:54:41 greensnark: how do you know this? 10:54:51 Alweth: experience 10:54:56 by: I rarely play fighters, that might be one explanation 10:55:07 it might help a little if D:1 humanoids never generated with weapons or armour 10:55:14 Mu_: Eek 10:55:22 The game said I did no damage. 10:55:27 no, we do want players to die on d1 10:55:38 greensnark suggested making D:1 harder in return (normal monster generation) 10:55:48 There's a difference between players dying on D1 and stabwound. 10:56:09 what are you trying to say? 10:56:40 I'm just saying, there's more options than, "Stabwound dying on D1" and "players not dying on D1" 10:56:58 I could just say a lot of things 10:57:10 yeah, we special case a lot of things for d:1 to make things easier 10:57:11 See syllogism's comment 10:57:18 it'd be nice to have a more general solution 10:57:24 and get rid of those special cases 10:57:40 allowing stair dancing on d:1 could allow that 10:57:44 i still think pillar dancing isn't a big deal 10:58:00 doy: the irony is that by getting rid of the special cases, you might make D1 more fun, and therefore make deaths there less boring. 10:58:14 irony? 10:58:34 Yes, decrease the problem of deaths by increasing them. 10:58:42 That's ironic. 10:59:27 by: I fixed a minor bug on the CRTRegion coupling, where sholud I stick the patch? 10:59:44 some pastebin? 10:59:53 I can apply it now if you want 10:59:55 http://www.student.oulu.fi/~jannelah/crawl/0001-Fixes-an-ASSERT-bug-in-PrecisionMenu.patch 11:00:22 I would like some reports on D:1 random deaths. 11:01:01 dpeg: even disregarding the frequency of death 11:01:14 i'm not saying d:1 should be easier 11:01:22 I think current D:1 death rate is not a problem, but if we care about players worrying about their overall winrate going down, it needs to be considered if pillar dancing is disabled 11:01:25 doy: I want concrete stuff: "I got killed by a foo with bar." 11:01:51 by: there is no need to keep winrates constant. 11:01:56 !lg * place=d:1 s=killer 11:02:00 225934 games for * (place=d:1): 115881x , 30663x a hobgoblin, 26533x a kobold, 10131x a goblin, 7918x a giant gecko, 6809x a jackal, 4747x a gnoll, 4681x a giant bat, 4070x a giant cockroach, 3528x a rat, 3391x an ooze, 1501x a giant newt, 1139x a snake, 747x a worm, 340x an orc, 337x a small snake, 326x a giant mite, 313x a giant ant, 272x an orc wizard, 232x an ogre, 221x a hound, 190x Ijyb, 178... 11:02:07 However, it is a problem if the main obstacle for winning (for good players) is D:1. 11:02:18 are we disabling pillar dancing because it's tedious 11:02:20 dpeg: if I do the proposed movement speed change, I'm pretty sure stabwound's complaints will be louder than those about the randomized energy 11:02:22 or too safe 11:02:23 or what 11:02:34 who's disabling pillar dancing 11:02:45 well just quoting by 11:02:56 -!- murphy_slaw has joined ##crawl-dev 11:03:13 by: what's the proposed movement speed change? 11:03:19 !gamesby goodplayers place=d:1 11:03:24 goodplayers (place=d:1) has played 29098 games, between 20061204 and 20100329, won 0, high score 6781, total score 950545, total turns 7782074, total time 564:59:33. 11:03:32 give monsters a 2% or so movement speed increase instead of the current randomized energy 11:03:36 it's also difficult not to "disable" it while at the same time making it somehow not completely safe 11:03:41 that's what we were discussing earlier 11:04:00 There you have it, dpeg: 0% of goodplayers have won the game on D:1 11:04:09 nice 11:04:14 lol 11:04:38 !lg goodplayers place=d:1 s=killer 11:04:40 29098 games for goodplayers (place=d:1): 17583x , 3314x a hobgoblin, 2860x a kobold, 1005x a goblin, 897x a giant gecko, 706x a jackal, 475x a giant bat, 437x a gnoll, 377x a giant cockroach, 314x a rat, 293x an ooze, 147x a giant newt, 114x a snake, 51x an orc, 49x a worm, 43x an orc priest, 38x a giant ant, 36x an orc wizard, 35x a giant mite, 31x a small snake, 24x a hound, 22x a centaur, 20x a... 11:04:50 !lg goodplayers place=d:1 s=killer ktyp!=quitting ktyp!=escaping 11:04:53 12419 games for goodplayers (place=d:1 ktyp!=quitting ktyp!=escaping): 3314x a hobgoblin, 2860x a kobold, 1005x a goblin, 904x , 897x a giant gecko, 706x a jackal, 475x a giant bat, 437x a gnoll, 377x a giant cockroach, 314x a rat, 293x an ooze, 147x a giant newt, 114x a snake, 51x an orc, 49x a worm, 43x an orc priest, 38x a giant ant, 36x an orc wizard, 35x a giant mite, 31x a small snake, 24x a... 11:05:10 !lg goodplayers s=killer ktyp!=quitting ktyp!=escaping 11:05:15 what, cancelling controlled teleport still doesn't give glow? 11:05:17 46032 games for goodplayers (ktyp!=quitting ktyp!=escaping): 6578x , 3841x a hobgoblin, 3380x a kobold, 1883x a gnoll, 1815x an orc wizard, 1529x an orc priest, 1500x an orc, 1443x an ogre, 1369x a snake, 1295x Sigmund, 1281x a goblin, 1277x a centaur, 1115x a giant gecko, 992x an orc warrior, 889x a jackal, 565x a giant bat, 554x Jessica, 544x a giant ant, 496x Ijyb, 485x a worm, 423x a giant coc... 11:05:32 so about 25% or so of good player games end on d:1 11:05:40 why are there endless discussions with some resolution, and then somebody implements something else? 11:05:56 by: i think that one just ended up with nobody implementing anything 11:06:02 someone should do that 11:06:18 it didn't use to be possible to cancel, however 11:06:33 right, but the discussion didn't happen until after someone added in cancelling 11:06:52 by, doy: yes, this can be very annoying. 11:07:02 ah 11:07:03 The only way is to put the finger onto the wound, again and again. 11:07:23 probably the only way is to do it yourself 11:08:29 by: or that 11:08:32 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 11:08:33 but don't give up 11:08:44 Nil desperandum 11:08:55 There's been topics I've mentioned five times before they would go in. 11:09:08 oklob colour != plant colour, to name just one 11:09:28 so what if we just kept the current speed randomization, but made the chance of +/- 1 smaller? 11:09:46 greensnark: "nihil desperandum", surely? 11:10:10 or 11:10:17 Okay, let us talk once more about speed randomisation. 11:10:25 made the chance depend on how far away their energy is from the "normal" energy 11:10:30 by's proposal is to give monster additional moves, in a controlled manner. 11:10:39 doy' 11:10:45 so if they gain a lot of energy, they'll be a lot more likely to lose energy 11:10:51 s proposal is to give monsters double turns, but more rarely. 11:11:30 Is the point of the change to eliminate pillar dancing? 11:11:46 that's part of the point, but not the entire point 11:11:51 and as i keep saying 11:11:54 not "eliminate" 11:11:59 Right. What else? 11:12:21 what about monsters speeding up the longer they've been aware? 11:12:46 that way, they start double-hitting you if you pillar dance a lot, but can't come onscreen then two-shot you 11:13:56 How about, if a monster has been chasing you for a while without gaining on you, it yells really load, waking up more monsters in the distance and causing them to come toward you. 11:14:14 loud 11:14:29 this sums up wow arena and crawl pillar dancing in a conscise 22 seconds: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wVP0o4esfI 11:14:31 Alweth: the result of that would end up being "make monsters dumber for no reason" 11:14:37 I just played a DSNe, and I wondered: how is a Ne suppose to survive the early game? He has nothing :) 11:15:11 pain is very good 11:15:14 Something like, "This guy's being a prick, can someone come and help me with him?" 11:15:17 carry million skeletons and bang head to wall with the useless skeletons :( 11:15:21 ais523: better solution there would probably be to reset monster energy when they notice you 11:15:21 and vampiric draining once you get it 11:15:24 or something like that 11:15:36 pain is terrible for non-deep dwarves 11:15:42 wrong 11:15:43 what, pain is awesome 11:15:45 doy: hmm, so it drifts away from the "0.5 value" over time? 11:15:52 it's worse than magic dart 11:15:54 ais523: ? 11:15:54 :S 11:16:00 if you're unlucky a rat can resist it like 6 times in a row 11:16:28 doy: as in, energy's initialised to the same value it would be in 0.5, but updated differently from then on, by a formula that's slightly different, and the difference increases over time 11:16:41 merely because it's a different formula biased a different way 11:16:46 syllogism: of course, I am so stupid :O 11:16:56 I am just trying to think of a common sense way to eliminate pillar dancing. Why doesn't pillar dancing work in real life? Sometimes it does, but generally, your opponent will do something to change the situation and make it not work. 11:16:57 ais523: well, it's a random walk, so yeah, it can 11:17:09 syllogism: I was going for XL 2 in melee to learn VD 11:17:16 pillar dancing fails in real life because the opponent's AI is better 11:17:20 * dpeg is a nutcase today. 11:17:22 Alweth: monsters shouting in areas that you've already explored does very little 11:17:26 eventually, they'll run in the other direction, or destroy the pillar, or something like that 11:17:27 I said this yesterday : pillar dancing is a result of lack of stamina 11:17:34 thus, the pillar dancing is not the problem, but the AI! 11:17:37 and so this would just be "monsters giving up turns for no reason" 11:17:38 er, lack of taking into account stamina 11:17:43 eventually you'd get tired irl 11:17:50 myuzinn: they almost never resist 11:17:52 myuzinn: adding a stamina system would be a ridiculous amount of work 11:18:00 I know 11:18:00 doy: only when you're pillar dancing on an empty level. 11:18:09 imagine a monster casting conjure flame out of your LOS when it spots you pillar dancing 11:18:18 and then you end up trapped in a dead end 11:18:27 Alweth: no, even when you're pillar dancing in areas that you've already explored, on a non-empty level 11:18:36 which is basically the only way you ever pillar dance 11:18:46 doy: Why? How? 11:18:49 to address pillar dancing, just up random fungus spawn rate 11:18:51 do people even pillar dance past the early game? 11:19:13 rarely, personally 11:19:14 really, pillar dancing is not the main issue here though 11:19:15 I can't recall having to do so, but that may be my dudes dying a lot before they get to mid/late 11:19:15 by: I don't think irc is suitable for finding a solution 11:19:18 too much noise 11:19:24 does it have to take a turn 11:19:26 myuzinn: anything suffciently dangerous is a good reason to start dancing, at any level. 11:19:42 yeh but later in the game things start being faster than you or have ranged attacks 11:20:09 And early in the game you have less options, so it comes up there more and is more critical there. 11:20:13 -!- murphy_slaw has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 11:20:38 myuzinn: true. 11:21:24 !lm trucutru uniq=Cerebov -tv 11:21:25 3. trucutru, XL27 KeAE, T:149584 (milestone) requested for FooTV. 11:21:50 Alweth: also true, in the early levels pillar dancing is one of your main tools, later on its one in a toolkit. 11:22:46 Just like autoexplore, there needs to be an auto-pillar-dance button, so that it's not so tedious. 11:22:55 Alweth: no 11:23:03 doy, I was a joke 11:23:07 it 11:23:08 This discussion is pointless if you keep making silly proposals. 11:23:17 Alweth: I use macros for that :P 11:23:21 The shouting one wasn't a joke. 11:23:23 Alweth: it's been proposed more seriously in the past 11:23:28 jarpiain: oh pillar dancing cerebov :P 11:23:29 Alweth: the shouting one is just a bad idea 11:23:36 well 11:23:46 doy: I understand that you think that, but I don't understand why you think that. 11:23:49 a "follow wall" option wouldn't be that bad 11:24:04 syllogism: and with < 10 move and hit costs so randomization wouldn't do anything there 11:24:10 they shout, more monsters come from behind, suddenly you can't pillar dance. 11:24:14 would be good for very open levels with centaurs firing at you etc 11:24:14 myuzinn: could be useful in the wide halls... 11:24:22 yeh, provided you had a dig wand 11:24:30 Alweth: the "more monsters come from behind" part will be a lot more rare than you seem to think 11:24:42 doy: yes, but why? 11:25:00 Alweth: the player chooses where to dance 11:25:04 shouting doesnt make enough noise, and there isnt enough monsters in the first place 11:25:18 that's why I said, "really loud" and distant 11:25:24 Alweth: please 11:25:25 Alweth: go to an explored area of a level one time and do 'tt' 11:25:30 and see how many monsters come 11:25:40 that's why I said, "really loud" and distant 11:25:50 -!- Alweth was kicked from ##crawl-dev by dpeg [Yes, we have heard it.] 11:26:05 -!- Alweth has joined ##crawl-dev 11:26:09 sorry about that 11:26:23 So, what are the issues about pillar dancing? 11:26:27 1. It is very helpful. 11:26:34 2. It is sometimes the only option. 11:26:39 3. It is always tedious. 11:26:57 However, it is only used very early on or against ogres. 11:26:58 sometimes tedious 11:27:03 or most of the time maybe 11:27:04 (It's a silly consept) 11:27:07 syllogism: to me, always tedious :) 11:27:10 but it doesn't always take hundreds of turns :P 11:27:14 yes it's tedious due to slow hp regen 11:27:15 syllogism: yes 11:27:24 on trolls it isn't tedious imo 11:27:33 the thing about the speed randomization solution is, it makes a lot more "perfectly safe" situations not perfectly safe 11:27:37 which i think is a good thing 11:27:50 i think this discussion is concentrating too much on pillar dancing 11:27:55 In my opinion, we can either (a) keep pillar dancing, but make it less tedious (more regeneration, for example), or (b) make it less attractive. 11:27:56 that's just one aspect of it 11:27:58 doy: the problem is you can minimize the danger by dancing even longer 11:28:09 I don't think we should properly remove it b/c of 2 above. 11:28:20 dpeg: yes, this is what i've been saying 11:28:34 dpeg: It would be nice to remove 2 above, because of 3. 11:28:47 dpeg: also, speed randomization does both (a) and (b) 11:28:48 you can't even reasonably remove it 11:28:52 As well as 4. It's a silly concept. 11:28:53 There are two other factors we could invoke: Hunger cost. Monster generation. 11:29:06 hunger cost is good but hard to implement 11:29:16 or justify 11:29:30 syllogism: I mean a higher hunger cost in general, not just for running. 11:29:30 we already did the monster generation angle 11:29:35 yes 11:29:43 and i think it's working pretty well 11:29:51 doy: speed randomisation: which version do you mean? Double move, or double hit? 11:29:59 Monsters drop caltrops as they run. 11:30:06 dpeg: i'd be fine with removing double hit 11:30:12 syllogism: I believe the food clock is too loose. Tightening it would also help with pillar dancing. 11:30:24 Alweth: please 11:30:25 i wouldn't be fine with disallowing move-hit 11:30:34 note that "double move" doesn't disallow move-hit 11:30:37 doy: sounds good to me. 11:30:38 it's very loose but newer players do have issues 11:30:41 by: to you, too? 11:30:50 syllogism: I don't care about that. 11:30:58 they don't realize you shouldn't use permafood unless you really have to, maybe tutorial could address that 11:31:03 syllogism: we could even provide more permafood. 11:31:09 syllogism: it will 11:31:52 felirx: jpeg and I conceived the tutorial. We're very happy about your efforts to push it further. Many thanks! But now back to dancing etc. 11:32:33 and i think a solution that keeps the average speed the same is good 11:32:39 yes 11:32:45 i don't particularly like "make all monsters faster" 11:32:49 even if it's just a little bit 11:32:58 I agree. 11:33:10 What I noted about speed randomisation is that they may gain a step, but will lose it right away again. Is that intended/supposed to be kept= 11:33:15 dpeg: yes 11:33:16 how about letting some monsters sprint for brief periods 11:33:24 maybe the player too 11:33:31 myuzinn: crocodiles already do that 11:33:32 (: 11:33:32 myuzinn: lots of logic, doubtful gain 11:33:35 alligators do 11:33:45 yeah, that 11:33:49 can never keep them straight 11:33:50 (: 11:33:56 alligators are hardcore 11:34:55 doy: but this leads to greensnark's observation that you need to circle around a staircase in order to shake off a monster via speed randomisation. 11:35:12 dpeg: and? 11:36:13 doy: it's tedious :) 11:36:33 oh, the other thing that i think would be a good change (if it's not already the case) - only monsters that are next to you on your turn can follow across stairs 11:36:39 If monsters kept their lost/gained step for longer, it might be better. 11:36:46 so you don't get monsters getting an extra move from randomization and then following 11:36:51 someone mentioned that earlier 11:36:51 03felirx * ra39bd1b1c2ec 10/crawl-ref/source/tilereg.cc: Fixes an ASSERT bug in PrecisionMenu 11:36:58 03by * ra0682bcd5e9c 10/crawl-ref/source/spells3.cc: Make cancelled controlled teleports take time and cause glow. 11:37:01 i don't know if it's actually true though 11:37:16 stabwound reported that, iirc 11:37:49 stabwound reported that a monster got a hit on him when taking the stairs, i don't think he reported the following bit though 11:38:05 Yeah, I mentioned that - someone had mentioned it happened to them a while back. Not sure if the same happened to stabwound. 11:39:16 by: so you think that you can randomize move energy in such a way that it works basically like now except that double attacks are removed? 11:39:38 Okay, it seems that speed randomisation (including move+hit, but not hit+hit) is the way to go. And only adjacent monsters follow stairs. 11:39:48 doy, by, greensnark, kilobyte? 11:39:52 I think b4307e0d2 would do that 11:39:53 that sounds good to me 11:40:11 feel free to push that to master 11:40:24 greensnark's opinion is that it makes the game easier than pre-randomization stage 11:40:26 Sounds great. I think that will remove pretty much all the 'real' complaints about it. 11:40:48 syllogism: because you can lose more monsters? 11:40:53 yes 11:41:00 it does make the game easier 11:41:02 reliably and quick 11:41:09 syllogism: it allows you to possibly survive in situations where otherwise you'd have to pillar dance and then die 11:41:15 but i'm pretty okay with that 11:41:28 syllogism: so we need to make the game harder elsewhere. Which we will. 11:41:28 like people keep saying, pretty much nobody pillar dances after the early game 11:42:04 by: that commit along with reverting the original one? 11:42:12 yes 11:42:36 just generate levels entirely without pillars! 11:42:38 * Zaba hides 11:42:57 syllogism: if I understand the implications correctly, the change makes pillar dancing a bit more risky, and escaping from monsters easier. I don't think there are better options. 11:43:00 just replace all levels with labs :P 11:43:08 doy: That's probably a good (and accurate) way of looking at it. I'm trying to think of other situations where it'd apply and not coming up with any. 11:43:34 -!- Amonchakad has joined ##crawl-dev 11:43:36 dpeg: depends on the monster/situation; it makes ditching something like an ogre safer 11:44:00 syllogism: yes, which is something many players told me they'd pillar dance for. 11:44:07 Amonchakad: found a new bug? 11:44:19 Uhm...no, not yet 11:45:27 so the other thing that the movespeed branch does is reduces monster energy when they first notice the player 11:45:43 is this necessary? 11:45:46 I remember that maybe that doesn't work, however 11:45:53 ah 11:46:09 i think if we're just randomizing movement energy it's not that important, either 11:46:10 syllogism and greensnark mentioned something 11:46:27 the main use for that would be to avoid double attacks when a monster comes into view 11:46:29 yes 11:47:15 If double attacks are globally prevented, wouoldn't that also apply to comes-into-view? 11:47:23 doy: that's not needed if we disallow double hits in general, right? 11:47:33 Twinge: yes, that's why i said it's not that important 11:48:02 i think that was also trying to address double attacks from centaurs coming into view 11:48:14 but that's a separate issue 11:49:44 -!- DrPraetor has joined ##crawl-dev 11:50:19 Nod. 11:50:48 doy: will you push it? 11:50:52 sure 11:50:55 Thank you! 11:51:08 Along with the adjacent-monsters condition? 11:51:24 well, i'm not sure how that would be implemented 11:51:24 (: 11:51:29 someone else can take care of that part 11:51:41 alright 11:51:45 doy: might need to file ot 11:51:46 it 11:53:18 I only recall hearing about that happening once; might be good to verify it exists as an issue before trying to fix it =) (might be hard to test, though :/) 11:53:57 felirx: where should the species/background descriptions go? 11:56:03 03doy * rd448aa988100 10/crawl-ref/source/ (mon-act.cc monster.cc): Merge randomized movespeed changes 11:58:20 anywhere you want, either read from a file or hardcoded 11:58:31 as long as you can poll them "easily" 11:59:10 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 11:59:15 Hello hello 12:01:05 felirx: ah, so there is no file that's read out at the moment? 12:01:18 Cryp71c: Hi there! Been talking to by about the DS patches... 12:01:25 I haven't looked at that part at all 12:01:26 ...there was something left to do? 12:01:30 felirx: it's okay. 12:01:31 I have no clue where they should go 12:01:45 as long as you can poll them by say species id and get a string in return, it will work 12:02:21 maybe put a new file in dat/descript? 12:03:48 dpeg, yes I've got to move some effect methods into mutation.cc 12:03:52 these are loaded through database.cc 12:04:01 Cryp71c: yes, thank you! 12:04:02 and probably go ahead and add some place-holders for new mutations so it doesn't foul up saves. 12:04:20 Cryp71c: by will push it afterwards. 12:04:24 by: right? 12:04:29 by, do the names of the mutations in enum.h have to remain the same, or just their order? 12:04:57 by: if you could create a file and have the starting screens read from it, I would provide the desciptions. 12:07:04 Cryp71c: I think it's just the order that's relevant 12:07:22 k, I'll just stick in some placeholders then 12:07:23 adding mutations at the end of the enum won't touch saves at all 12:07:28 ah, ok 12:07:34 well in that case I'll move body-facets up to the top 12:07:39 so that new mtuations can be added to the bottom freely. 12:08:16 by, when working with my github, better to branch, do all my DS, then rebase and format-patch then? 12:08:35 uh 12:08:45 trog has just given me the 5th or so great sword of holy wrath 12:08:58 is that just the rng being wonky or what 12:09:03 Cryp71c: probably :) 12:09:09 k 12:10:30 myuzinn, tog code didnt get any major changes for gifting afaik in .6 or trunk? but i'm not familiar with the code so i can only guess 12:10:38 s/tog/trog 12:10:51 mm k rng wonkery then 12:11:02 acquirement code was tweaked 12:11:40 dpeg: I don't know the database code well; would be better if someone who's worked with descriptions before did it 12:11:40 so, yeah...BR hen? 12:11:48 then 12:12:26 dpeg: but you can just start with the file by copying one of the others in dat/descript and using the same format 12:14:01 by: okay, will do and send the file to Johanna 12:14:52 Possible bug: vehumet doesn't reduce the MP cost of IMB. 12:15:09 seems unlikely 12:15:21 I'm testing it over and over 12:15:24 is this on DOS? :) 12:15:36 lol 12:15:43 keeps spending 4 mp; it's lvl 4; and I have ***** with vehu 12:16:01 works here 12:16:07 do you have enough piety? 12:16:17 5 stars...yeah 12:16:21 other conjurations are reduced fine 12:16:37 he isnt doing it very often though 12:16:39 It's a mummy venom mage, xl 13 12:17:00 Uh...now it reduced it...once 12:17:30 should demigods have a lower chance of acquiring faith? 12:17:36 yes, i don't know how frequently he reduces the cost, but it seemed something like 20% 12:17:39 with imb 12:17:51 by: yes 12:17:57 I mean, my amulet "Xeoqom" {Faith EV+5 Dam+4} is nice anyway, but... 12:18:11 what about spriggans/mummies and gourmand 12:18:34 by: I would say so, yes. It's useless to them, and they shouldn't get it. 12:18:41 Ok,nevermind, what I was seeing was the natural MP regen. 12:18:53 It is completely okay to hand out bad stuff. But not unusable items (unless Xom). 12:18:56 Other conjurations are reduced by 1 mp all the time, IMB never 12:19:08 oh 12:19:46 felirx: menu.cc: In member function ‘bool PrecisionMenu::add_item(CRTMenuEntry*)’: 12:19:47 dpeg, following that line of gameplay, I think syllogism's idea has merit. 12:19:49 menu.cc:2603: warning: comparison between signed and unsigned integer expressions 12:19:53 doy: one more thing: would you add the current speed randomisation state (after the commit) to the top of https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:feedback:speed_randomization ? 12:19:54 Shouldn't Sp and Mu not get Gouramon 12:20:00 dpeg: sure 12:20:30 Cryp71c: which idea? 12:23:05 oh? 12:23:22 * Napkin is excited to read about the speed_randomization change * 12:24:07 doy: cast the item->text.siz() to regular int 12:24:12 dunno why I missed that one :( 12:24:25 Napkin: we took some pains. 12:24:38 And required one /kick. 12:25:05 don't acquire useless jewellery (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1211) by rob 12:25:43 03doy * r5d327d2668e9 10/crawl-ref/source/menu.cc: fix compilation warning (felirx) 12:26:26 !source spell_mana 12:26:30 it was controversial from the beginning - and i bet most parties will be happy soon :) 12:26:35 @?? mimic 12:26:35 mimic (11)) | Speed: 10 | HD: 8 | Health: 24-64 | AC/EV: 5/1 | Damage: 1708(poison), 17, 17 | Flags: 11non-living | Res: 06magic(32), 05fire, 02cold, 10elec++, 03poison | XP: 493. 12:26:41 Lines pasted to http://paste.scsys.co.uk/41573 12:28:08 "Starting at **** piety reduce the cost of high level (>=5) conjurations" but he also seems to reduce cost of low level ones ?? 12:28:13 but not level 4 spells? :P 12:31:00 syllogism: maybe you're just seeing mana regen for the low level spells? 12:31:05 no 12:31:24 flame tongue frequently costs 0 12:32:33 at how much maxmp? 12:32:43 35 12:32:44 the code looks right 12:32:53 and most of the time it costs 1 12:32:57 mp regen isnt that fast ever, is it 12:33:05 wait 12:33:06 I'm dumb :P 12:33:07 are you killing the stuff with that tongue 12:33:10 and getting kill mana? 12:33:14 I thought I learned throw flame 12:33:33 -!- ortoslon has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:33:33 okay, it's working fine 12:34:23 Napkin: removing Divinations also was controversial from the beginning :) 12:34:35 maybe the power description should be rephrased to convey he only reduces cost of high level spells 12:35:09 mention Orb of Zot upon gamestart (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1212) by dpeg 12:36:59 dpeg: Check the Stats page edit/history, a little harsh perhaps but why have two pages of discussion when you can have a one-line proposal. :) 12:40:11 hehe, i liked divinations, but i get the idea why you removed it 12:40:39 Keskitalo: did you edit it? 12:40:50 there was another comment about it today.. the most harsh and unconstructive yet.. i marked it as spam 12:41:14 Napkin: my point was that criticisms, complaints, fury and uproar pre-change matter not much. 12:41:20 dpeg: Yes, I'd like to think it was for good. :) 12:41:33 The wiki pages become so unintelligible so fast. 12:41:34 Napkin: where? 12:41:46 to the play-testing post 12:41:55 Keskitalo: this is a problem -- but the SF pages did the same and we can at least clean up the wiki pages. 12:42:05 Best that the devteam distill the ideas from the comments and then sets them on fire. 12:42:09 it's in the spam folder of the comments page, after you login to the wordpress, dpeg 12:44:04 Napkin: just read it. 12:44:10 Don't think it's spam, just stupid. 12:44:25 Keskitalo: sure 12:44:37 Yeah, that's not even good trolling. 12:44:51 ah, we don't get good trolls these days... 12:45:02 it's not spam because it's serious and on-topic 12:45:07 unsolicited ;) 12:45:57 man, b0rsuk talks a lot 12:45:59 (: 12:46:22 dpeg: The Int->MP idea is a good one, it would make us be able to use MP for more character builds without having to learn spells or invocations. Not sure if evokers need it currently? 12:46:35 evo provides mp too 12:46:55 Keskitalo: "I like the idea about Int helping against confusion, but I love the idea about Int giving magic resistance." missing a "don't"? 12:47:05 it's something like 2*spellcasting + 2*max(invo, evo) 12:47:08 dpeg: No, I like both but prefer MR 12:47:23 Keskitalo: my proposal would use both Int and MR, but in different ways. 12:47:43 Keskitalo: There are good reasons to keep Spc->MP. 12:47:52 For example the similarity with Fighting. 12:48:04 dpeg: I think Borsuk is right in saying Confusion is too niche, but MR is appealing (especially now that MD and HO have low racial MR) 12:48:07 well, if you guys think it should be there.. de-spam it and approve it 12:48:21 Napkin: not worth it:) 12:48:21 Napkin: I'm fine with not posting garbage like this. :) 12:48:35 i think it's obviously trying to be offensive and unconstructive 12:48:41 yes 12:48:42 good :) 12:48:43 the skill part is xl*max(spellc/4, invo/6) 12:48:50 don't think evo is involved 12:48:51 Criticism, good, harsh criticism, still good, good trolling, maybe, bad trolling, waste of everybody's time. 12:49:01 doy: That was removed, I recall.. 12:49:15 by: Evoc used to be in there 12:49:31 but it's not; that was pre rod change 12:49:50 Keskitalo: I tried to also explain how we can differentiate the confusing spells. 12:50:14 Crashes in the abyss (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1213) by MarvintheParanoidAndroid 12:51:00 yay for asserts 12:51:05 :( 12:51:21 i'm disillusioned with the abyss now 12:51:31 well even more so than i was before 12:52:20 dpeg, sorry, was away. The idea I was referring to was that non-xom acquirement shouldn't give gouramond to Sp / Mu 12:52:35 Cryp71c: that's been filed already and I seconded it. 12:52:42 dpeg, ah ok, thanks. 12:52:55 Napkin: you here? 12:53:02 yes 12:53:07 what's up? 12:53:37 Napkin: I find myself using "compare revisions" of wiki pages quite often. 12:53:54 Most often, I click the two top ones, then I have to scroll down and press "compare". 12:54:05 hehe 12:54:16 add it to the list? 12:54:30 i mean, add it to the feature requests in the mantis? 12:54:32 Could we (a) get another Compare button at the top and/or (b) a "compare the two most recent revisions" shortcut? 12:54:41 never done that =) 12:54:46 dpeg: that "3d-glasses" icon gives a diff 12:55:00 i'm having quarter-end freeze at the moment - i hope to find time to go through those again 12:55:05 *at work 12:55:06 dpeg: I like that part (a LOT!), but it's not as much about Int as it is about the confusion spells. Confusion is too small for a stat. No small effects for stats was the guideline! 12:55:10 either between current and that revision, or between that revision and the next one, not sure which 12:55:24 Keskitalo: yes 12:55:25 but should work for what you want anyway 12:55:30 doy: thank you 12:55:52 Keskitalo: well, if Int replaced MR.... 12:56:01 Keskitalo: I like that better than Int giving MP. 12:56:58 Yeah, I'm not sure if we have or want non-priest/caster MP-users. 12:57:02 -!- DrPraetor has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:57:58 Keskitalo: it's not just this. It's also that it would make Spc dangerously empty. 12:58:26 Might need a lot of tweaking, the Int/MR coupling. For instance, we sure don't want casters or say Spriggan casters become invincible to hostile enchantments. 12:58:55 Keskitalo: could use Int where XL is used right now. 12:59:16 dpeg: Good point. 12:59:31 dpeg: Well, could switch Int away from Spell success/Spell power in favour of Spellcasting, for instance. 12:59:38 (talking about MP from Int) 12:59:52 But I'm quite fond of my "Spellcasting means flexibility"-thoughline. :P 12:59:53 so, in trunk, monsters can no longer double attack from a speed gain? 13:00:08 If you remone int from cast hunger / success, it will affect the items giving +int a lot 13:00:24 stabwound: exactly 13:00:30 felirx: Int is crucial for hunger, and should stay. 13:00:34 stabwound: We hope you give it another try. 13:00:55 that does go a long way toward fixing it, yes 13:01:08 stabwound: we take serious feedback seriously. 13:01:24 Keskitalo: but Spc and Int are already dual for hunger purposes. We don't want the same duality for maxMP, I guess? 13:01:36 dpeg: No, certainly not. 13:01:54 haha, that comment is great 13:02:20 <+Keskitalo> Might need a lot of tweaking, the Int/MR coupling. For instance, we sure don't want casters or say Spriggan casters become invincible to hostile enchantments. 13:02:30 doy: on Div? 13:02:31 but... that's practically already the case 13:02:36 myuzinn: You're gonna say tehy already are? :) 13:02:39 heh 13:02:41 Shows how much I know. :) 13:03:38 Well, I mean that right now, casters don't necessarily have more MR compared to fighters, but after the change they would. 13:03:57 Many do, because most of the casters do Enchantments, which currently gives MR. 13:03:58 most casters already dip into enchantment a fair bit for utility spells 13:04:03 The is the MR boost from enchantments but I was never fond of that. 13:04:12 I don't know the numbers of course. 13:04:18 Should be looked at. 13:04:31 !streak stabwound 13:04:39 Stabwound has 19 consecutive wins (MfPa, DSNe, HOPr, KeCr, MDFi, SpMo, CeFi, GhMo, MDGl, MiBe, VpAs, MfCr, HOCK, HEPa, SEHe, SpTm, MuNe, DSVM, TrCj). 13:04:57 dpeg: Yeah, it feels like a cool idea rather than a good idea. :) 13:05:01 Half of them with Okawaru. (Which says more about Okawaru than about stabwound.) 13:05:03 Because the school is so bloated already. 13:05:17 okawaru is just the safest choice 13:05:22 Keskitalo: we will dissect it, not for 0.7 but hopefully for 0.8. 13:05:31 stabwound: yes, that's an aspect I don't really like. 13:05:31 dpeg: yes 13:05:37 dpeg: Yeah. 13:05:46 okwaru isn't necessarily the best, just the safest 13:05:58 stabwound: exactly, don't want that. 13:06:20 At least not in Okawarian proportions. 13:06:39 It's okay if some gods are more risque than others. 13:06:47 yep 13:07:18 I like weird/challenge gods like xom, fedhas, etc 13:08:06 i like how chei turned out a lot 13:08:08 Fedhas is a challenge god? 13:08:18 could probably use some tweaking, but the general concept works well 13:08:20 well, more like a "weird" god 13:08:22 Hm. 13:08:28 doy: The boosts for ponderous armours are a bit blunt, but I wanted the god to be viable. 13:08:30 I've never seen it used but it sounds weird on paper 13:08:32 stabwound: yes, okay. 13:08:35 Valid problems have been raised 13:08:42 Siber: on your FR? 13:08:50 Yeah 13:09:58 doy: I believe C is unique, playable and sufficiently thematic right now. Over time, there will surely come up proposals for how to improve him. 13:16:21 I always loved the challenge of a Naga Warper, Chei gives kind of a similar challenge. :) 13:38:18 dpeg: The bright idea of the day: what if Int didn't affect success, but gave MR, and MR made miscasts less severe? 13:38:40 Keskitalo: been thinking about that for 20 minutes? :P 13:39:17 Hehe, pretty much. :) 13:39:56 I like Int giving MR. But your proposal would promote Int twice: first it increases success (this is not necessary, though!) and then it helps against miscasts. 13:40:08 In this light, it would be natural if Int improves power, but not success. 13:40:45 I did say "didn't affect success", didn't I. :) 13:40:58 oops :) 13:41:41 dpeg: Yes, the idea that I'm after is that there could then be casters that had low success, but could cast powerful spells. Their miscasting would be mitigated. Then the other kind would be less powerful spells, but with more chances of success (but bigger suffering from miscasting) 13:42:01 And this differentation would probably be mostly done between species. 13:42:52 But it would be cool if say a Human caster could be built as one would want. Obviously, we wouldn't want casters that are great at everything and don't even get a decent miscast when they fumble it. :P 13:45:32 Keskitalo: yes, that sounds compelling 13:46:51 "Hey! It looks like it might get included in some form or another, though as a testing mechanic rather than a gameplay one." "Yeah, but that does me no good" "Well, you could play in Wizard mode and simulate this functionality." "Well, you could play in Wizard mode and simulate this functionality." "That would be cheating!" "So you want the devs to legitimize your cheating? :D" "Yes!" 13:49:15 Siber: talking to yourself? :) 13:52:11 huh 13:52:30 syllogism: ? 13:52:52 re: siber 13:53:05 though also 'huh' at making Int more important :P 13:54:04 Transcription of conversation elsewhere 13:54:44 syllogism: this is not about more important 13:55:08 I know that's not the intention 13:55:41 Possibly valuable for non-casters. More important in that way. :) 13:56:32 One problem with trying to differentiate between building Int, Spellcasting and School skills, is that the latter are skills and the first one is a stat. :P 13:56:58 -!- myuzinn has quit [] 13:57:08 Of course, we could make Dex affect success and Str affect spell hunger. :P 13:57:20 well they are differentiated fairly well 14:00:01 syllogism: yes, but Int is useful if and only if you 14:00:05 're a caster 14:05:09 -!- Keskitalo has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:13:59 -!- Keskitalo has joined ##crawl-dev 14:16:25 how do i tell if the backup save function on CDO worked? 14:16:37 It should give you a link to paste here. 14:16:43 oh, hm 14:16:49 i'll try again 14:17:13 aha 14:17:25 No comments on using the other stats for casters? :) 14:17:35 okay, added it to the bug report 14:17:49 dex adds some ev for a caster 14:17:56 and str is needid in moderate amount because of carryweight 14:18:13 MarvinPA: thanks! 14:18:24 felirx: I think it's fine that a pure caster will want only Int. 14:18:30 Yeah, I've picked up a point of Str for my current HEAM. Int all the way otherwise. 14:18:31 The point are the hybrids. 14:18:39 then you would have to get rid of the str - carry coupling :) 14:18:50 casters right now are forced to get str! 14:19:18 But I'm already thinking about differentiating between casters. :) 14:19:30 str should be worth less cc 14:19:32 felirx: want vs need :) 14:19:35 or stepped down 14:19:37 or something 14:19:41 it's pretty ridiculous on the high end 14:19:55 Keskitalo: try playnig a DE with 4 str and say that again :) 14:20:05 doy: do you complain about very low or very high Str? 14:20:21 -!- TGWi has joined ##crawl-dev 14:21:21 dpeg: ogre berserker starts with 742 cc 14:21:26 that's ludicrous 14:21:52 doy: propose a better formula :) 14:22:16 or a stepdown, or something 14:22:28 yeah, i'm not sure 14:22:31 would have to think about it 14:22:45 I was mostly concerned with (a) making Str matter, (b) making very low Str harsh, but barely acceptable 14:22:54 yeah 14:23:07 -!- mspang_ is now known as mspang 14:23:25 Didn't really think about high Str. I did make large rocks heavier again, I think. 14:24:51 yeah, i think it's had the effect of making cc meaningless for any str-based character 14:25:16 i know i haven't had to even think about weight restrictions in a while 14:25:35 Low end Str works well I think, it made me put that point in Str. :) 14:25:36 doy: I am fine with doing something at the upper end. 14:25:44 LOS inconsistencies in the abyss (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1214) by MarvintheParanoidAndroid 14:27:26 MR from int is a stellar idea 14:28:37 oh hey one of my crashes says something to do with LOS as well 14:29:53 MR mitigating miscasts is a stellar idea 14:30:46 on a tangential note, are there any FRs or wiki items discussing the abyss and/or it's rune? 14:31:32 MarvinPA: yes, I think so. 14:31:43 MarvinPA: look under feedback|brainstorm:branches 14:32:11 -!- Spads has joined ##crawl-dev 14:32:52 hmm, doesn't appear that there is actually 14:33:04 MarvinPA: then make one! 14:33:12 indeed, i will try and think of something 14:33:34 there has to be some way to make the quest for the abyssal rune less dreadfully boring :P 14:33:40 indeed =p 14:33:44 MarvinPA: Lugonu! 14:33:56 It used to be much worse. Kids these days :P 14:34:06 you would have to spend just as long getting the piety to make it appear quicker :P 14:34:56 But you can do more fun things in the dungeon meanwhile. 14:35:26 not if you've already cleared it all :( 14:36:08 the thing is, people leave the abyss rune till last, and its not dangerous by that stage, you just bash through everything 14:36:16 i dunno how to make it better though =p 14:36:21 Okay, I can see that. :) 14:36:30 Randomly generated miniquests arise, small things you can do along the way to improve rune spawn chances? 14:36:34 eith: the Abyss should adapt to the character 14:36:54 that would be good 14:37:02 it would definitely be cool if the abyss got more interesting/dangerous the longer you spent in it 14:37:08 You could have some Abyss Nexus portals, that are dangerous to enter to (i.e. low-level characters wouldn't try), but would appear more frequently than the rune now, and inside, the rune would be there. 14:37:12 or sumething. 14:37:17 assuming that weaker characters still have a chance to find a portal out 14:37:22 Keskitalo: yes 14:37:53 Lugonu could also hand out the abyss rune at full piety at an altar. 14:38:02 Keskitalo: yes 14:38:09 Whoo I'm on fire today :D 14:38:12 collect these ideas somewhere :) 14:38:17 well if you're worshipping lugonu anyway, finding the rune isn't such a big deal 14:38:41 the point is that (future) Lugonu should not want you to idle around in the abyss. 14:38:44 MarvinPA: Yeah, but the random rune is boring and could be taken out, but then storming an Abyss Nexus as a lugonite sounds wrong. 14:38:59 And what dpeg says. (I had the proposed changes in mind) 14:39:02 ahh yeah 14:39:07 i did read them, they look very cool 14:39:12 MarvinPA: Would you like to add the page? That would be excellent. 14:39:27 sure, brainstorm:branches:abyss i guess? 14:39:30 I think the Nexus could be Ziggurat-like? 14:39:34 MarvinPA: Yeah! 14:39:40 Keskitalo: nah, bit different I hope :) 14:39:48 ahh actually i can't, don't have permissions to create new pages ::P 14:39:52 only to edit existing ones 14:40:10 Keskitalo: will you give him the page? 14:40:25 I was thinking, that when you locate the Nexus, you want to get in, but it's difficult and you don't want to waste time so that the Abyss doesn't shift before you get in. 14:40:37 MarvinPA: Sounds like you need a little more priviledges, hold a sec. 14:41:01 ah thanks, i'm "MarvintheParanoidAndroid" on the wiki :) 14:41:19 MarvinPA: Yes, found it. Try now? 14:41:44 yep, appears to work, thanks! 14:45:17 Napkin: The downloads page is beautiful! 14:45:29 Napkin: true! 14:45:35 innocent! 14:45:38 Johanna :) 14:45:51 wow, didn't know that 14:46:13 we need nicer console screenshot! 14:46:22 but it's awesome already, agreed :) 14:48:50 I really like what we've all done with the place :D 14:48:55 "I've just started and the gods are my favourite thing about this game, and I've only followed Trog so far." 14:49:11 syllogism: SA? 14:49:14 nice articles, good content - i am even happy about the structure now ;) 14:49:15 yes 14:49:23 syllogism: beautiful :) 14:52:20 -!- purge has joined ##crawl-dev 14:53:01 -!- murphy_slaw has joined ##crawl-dev 15:11:11 03by * ra26f7ebd1a85 10/crawl-ref/source/ (arena.cc files.cc l_debug.cc los.cc los.h): Add los_changed() to signal a global LOS changed. 15:11:22 03by * rdcb514876cbf 10/crawl-ref/source/abyss.cc: Invalidate LOS when generating abyss. 15:14:06 Any suggestions on whether a Kenku Summoner should use short blades or unarmed? 15:14:35 definitely not short blades 15:14:51 unarmed kenku are alot of fun 15:15:07 Thanks, syllogism. Any particular reason why not shortblades? 15:15:18 Thank eith. 15:15:19 poor damage and you arent going to be stabbing 15:15:27 plus you don't need short blades skill for that anyway 15:15:30 ##crawl is ----> that way 15:15:31 d: 15:15:45 doy: good point, sorry 15:28:54 Where can I find a list of the planned overhauls and new features for 0.7(if there's one already)? 15:29:53 here are the things being discussed https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:planning:0.7_features 15:30:01 Thanks! 15:30:01 most likely not all of them will get in though 15:30:18 we're going to try to have a shorter release cycle this time 15:30:30 to get balance issues worked out for the tournament 15:30:53 -!- syllogism has quit [] 15:31:06 Amonchakad: Yeah, that's a gigantic wishlist (a good one, though) 15:31:20 should rename that to 0.8_features and create a new 0.7_features? 15:31:25 Tournament? 15:31:30 There are Crawl tournaments? 15:31:34 Amonchakad: There's a suggestion on the ML that says: balance, interface, Sprint, DS in time for Tournament and that's about it. 15:32:01 by: Yeah, let's do that. :) 15:32:28 hmhm, i made that abyss page, it's a bit bare at the moment but i'll try and flesh it out and come up with some more ideas :) 15:32:33 ?? tourney 15:32:33 tournament[1/2]: http://crawl.akrasiac.org/tourney09/overview.html 15:33:16 fast 0.7 is love 15:33:48 there are some smaller items on the 0.7 wiki page that could probably also go in pretty easily 15:33:49 MarvinPA: Thank you! 15:33:50 MarvinPA: thank you. Also thanks for the Abyss bug reports. 15:33:57 by: do we want 0.6.1 for ^ ? 15:34:02 no problem! 15:34:14 constriction, stat death removal 15:34:18 things like that 15:34:23 dpeg: for what? 15:34:23 dpeg: that's 0.7 only 15:34:30 was a bug in the los rewrite 15:34:32 by: the Abyss fixes 15:34:34 ah 15:34:38 Stat death removal would be good, constriction less so I think.. 15:34:39 We're all playing 0.7 =) 15:34:50 Keskitalo: stat death removal is not really urgent 15:35:11 dpeg: not urgent, but small and relatively unobtrusive was my point 15:35:19 Constriction should have an effect on the game balance. Stat death too of course, but it's more of a removal of instadeaths, kind of a convenience thing.. 15:35:33 is the exp pool going in there? 15:35:34 constriction would be part of the rebalancing 15:35:41 I'll try to get some interface stuff in. 15:35:42 krakens are totally unbalanced 15:35:46 (on the weak side) 15:35:47 d: 15:36:12 Well, I guess it could turn parts of the game from scary to easy if handled poorly. :P (Never been on the receiving end, myself..) 15:36:17 if I ever have to leave a kraken for later I'll be sad 15:36:19 they're so much fun 15:36:30 doy: Well, hmm, could restrict it to kraken at first. 15:36:35 yeah, we can limit the monsters that get constriction for 0.7 15:36:38 and see how it wokrs 15:37:11 *nod* 15:37:28 I have a constriction/nets/related effects writeup in my notebook that I really should put into wiki. :P 15:37:29 but something does need to be done about the kraken 15:37:30 (: 15:37:35 good idea to do monster constriction first and players later 15:46:31 dpeg: not sure if you saw this link but if you want to read a forum with all complete newbs trying out .6: 15:46:33 http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=28410.1665 15:46:44 purge: thanks 15:49:50 How's this? https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:planning:0.7_features 15:52:34 Keskitalo: heh, just got done replying to your email 15:56:04 doy: Oh good, I was writing a new one. :) 15:57:25 I'll update the wiki page.. 15:57:31 -!- TGWi has left ##crawl-dev 15:57:36 Thanks for especially breaking up the "let's balance!" item :) 15:57:43 (: 16:00:14 I wonder how much taking out stat death will affect balance for heavy armor having a few more points in str early/mid game 16:04:24 and also one other minor advantage that hasn't been brought up about heavy armor pure melee is that they all get high str so they can carry alot more 16:04:24 which was nice when i made my zot:5 run -- I just took everything that might remotely be useful :) 16:04:24 purge: oh, yeah, i was just talking about that like 20 minutes ago 16:04:24 I didn't really focus much on ranged weapons, but i imagine being able to carry all those extra arrows/bolts/stones would be helpful 16:04:24 that should be dealt with too 16:04:24 14:21 < doy> dpeg: ogre berserker starts with 742 cc 16:04:24 14:21 < doy> that's ludicrous 16:04:24 (: 16:04:24 ah :) 16:04:24 (okay, like an hour and a half ago, but still) 16:08:44 doy: Replied; updated the wiki page; please add the cc thing on it! 16:08:50 Off to sleep now. Cheers! 16:08:54 k 16:12:35 Whoops, saved now. 16:16:40 -!- Amonchakad has quit [Quit: Page closed] 16:16:49 03kilobyte * rf4227271e531 10/crawl-ref/source/effects.cc: Don't acquire items of useless types, like amulets of faith for Demigods. 16:23:40 03by * r2778fdb1b768 10/crawl-ref/source/fprop.cc: Assert valid sanctuary position if a square has sanctuary bits set. 16:23:41 03by * r1ff6b1ec1778 10/crawl-ref/source/abyss.cc: Make radius_iterators in abyss shift more explicit. 16:23:42 03by * r9ae4a2e80172 10/crawl-ref/source/abyss.cc: Invalidate LOS earlier in abyss shift. 16:25:36 -!- by has quit [Quit: sleep] 16:31:16 -!- bmh has joined ##crawl-dev 16:38:10 hey 16:40:19 bmh: hi! Everybody's out :) 16:40:26 are not! 16:40:28 especially you 16:40:31 * elly is always here. 16:41:09 so, I'm wondering if DS mutations need more tweaking. 16:41:19 I keep getting crappy mutations which makes me want to start scum 16:41:34 bmh: in 0.6 or 0.7? 16:41:38 elly: hi there :) 16:41:40 whatever is on CDO 16:41:46 CDO has everything 16:41:57 option 1) on cdo :-) 16:41:59 Also, the new DS sets are far from finished. 16:45:15 New DS mutations should roll into trunk tomorrow. 16:45:15 for example, my fighter just got 10% more MP 16:45:15 * dpeg is very grateful and happy about that. 16:45:15 oh boy! 16:45:15 dpeg: woo 16:45:15 how do DS interact with Jiyva? 16:45:15 bmh: oh, that's not a valid complaint: of course you can get DS mutations which should make you...reconsider your ways. 16:45:15 bmh: orthogonal 16:45:15 will Jiyva backmutate my DS mutations? 16:45:15 never 16:45:15 orthogoal == zero interaction 16:45:15 * bmh is a computational biologist 16:45:15 ;-) 16:45:15 bmh: don't you have independent genes or something? 16:45:15 nah, they're all subject to epistatic interactions 16:45:15 Where modifying has no effect on the other? 16:45:15 Or in the DNA string? I heard something like that.... 16:45:15 *modifying one 16:45:15 My first reaction was to say "Yes," but I'll temper my reply and say "Probably" 16:45:15 * dpeg is all in favour of exstatic interactions. 16:45:31 I had this at school, so we had little more than Mendel :) 16:45:32 mmm, ecstatic interactions. 16:46:38 HA! 16:46:46 I just got Duvessa to kill Dowen and then she killed me too 16:53:25 -!- TGWi has joined ##crawl-dev 16:53:25 does fed abandon you on death like the good gods? 16:53:36 Wait, what? 16:54:19 does not compute, please explain? 16:55:31 Siber: those who go to the afterlife recognize the good gods as false ones and dump them; ghosts of worshippers of other gods keep them 16:56:01 ... 16:56:04 I thought it was that good gods excommunicate you for being undead 16:56:48 either way, what about fed? 16:57:05 Why do DS get rC? It seems like they should get rF? 16:57:06 nope, ghosts keep fed 16:57:12 ok, good 16:57:15 bmh: why 16:57:19 fedhas appreciates your contribution to the lifecycle when you die 16:57:23 there is an ice counterpart for each fire demon 16:57:27 doy: yeah 16:57:33 fair, I've just gotten rC a lot and never rF 16:57:34 I was just making sure, I read that somewhere 16:57:51 fedhas should be a big fan of ghosts because they aren't tying up any carbon 16:57:51 i think at first ghosts didn't keep him 16:57:54 but it was fixed 17:01:36 Life cyles need animals and plants both! 17:01:36 can someone explain the rationale behind removing stat death? 17:01:36 stat death is annoying and all, but so is Sigmund 17:01:36 -!- Ashenzari has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:02:11 -!- Ashenzari has joined ##crawl-dev 17:02:11 -!- The topic of ##crawl-dev is: DCSS development channel! | Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki | Ashenzari source: http://github.com/doy/crawlbot 17:05:24 bmh: deaths from stat loss are instant and often accidental. Deaths from Sigmund are the player's fault, take longer and never accidental. 17:05:24 dpeg: totally reasonable 17:05:24 We like Sigmund kills, we don't like stat deaths. 17:06:56 removing stat death would lead to a significant amount of min-maxing 17:07:19 -!- voker57 has joined ##crawl-dev 17:07:28 was scroll of remove curse somewhow broken in git around 0.6.0? 17:08:37 as in 0.7.0-a0-866-b84bd9182b17c... 17:08:44 876 * 17:13:34 kilobyte: stat 0 would still be undesirable, and often fatal. 17:13:34 It just would be an extended death, rather than a sudden one. 17:13:34 I thought stat 0 as a slow instadeath was pretty much consensus in here 17:13:34 at least, I can't remember anyone disagreeing 17:13:34 Disagreeing is kilobyte's specialty :) 17:13:34 That's okay. Everyone saying YES to everything ==> stagnation of thinking. 17:13:34 sheesh. Things outside are close to flooding. Nothing to do but play crawl 17:26:26 mephitic cloud definately needs its level raised heh 17:29:55 I saw the biggest change when its range was nerfed 17:29:55 purge: how will I kill sigmund then! 17:30:23 purge: various other nerfs are conceivable 17:30:34 -!- bmh has quit [Quit: bmh] 17:38:05 monster confusion in general is badly overpowered. It effectively takes the monster out for its duration. 17:38:05 so my idea would be to make it work the same as player confusion: only a chance of acting randomly 17:38:05 kilobyte: I tested that a bit ago 17:38:10 after arguing militantly that it was true 17:38:14 I'm pretty sure you're wrong 17:38:24 night all 17:38:31 confused players seemed to move in no particular direction, for one thing 17:38:44 not to mention that they can't use spells or scrolls at all 17:39:31 -!- Textmode has quit [Quit: Over the ages, man has been certain of a great many things. some of these things were even true.] 17:39:33 I guess monster's can't either but still 17:39:43 s/monster's/monsters/ 17:40:48 try moving while confused: most of the time you'll move in the direction you want 17:40:54 this is not the case for monsters 17:41:05 that's exactly what I tested 17:41:31 if someone could sourcedive it would be appreciated but I've already embarassed myself like that 17:42:40 for players, there is only a chance of acting confused 17:42:48 kilobyte: I agree here. 17:42:51 you have asserted that three times 17:43:20 TGWi: main.cc, _move_player() 17:43:26 or try that in the game 17:43:51 ask your neighbour orc wizard or Sigmund to confuse you... 17:45:06 -!- pointless_ has joined ##crawl-dev 17:46:30 honestly confusion from most sources goes through MR 17:46:39 you would have a very hard time arguing that the wand is OP 17:47:05 -!- AndChat| has joined ##crawl-dev 17:47:14 I understand the objection to meph but that can be nerfed separately 17:47:21 hello hello 17:47:24 ... 17:47:31 hi 17:47:40 hold on, nick is fouled up 17:48:17 TGWi: we can do _both_ 17:48:32 both nerf confusion and meph? 17:48:34 but like why 17:48:37 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Disconnected by services] 17:48:50 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 17:49:03 ah screw it 17:49:13 -!- AndChat| is now known as Cryp71c_ 17:49:26 for consistency with player confusion, for one 17:49:40 was trying to ghost but could get the nick before my home system reconnected 17:49:48 for example, we either should let players hit themselves or remove that from monsters 17:50:23 hm 17:51:40 if you're concerned with the wand being of little use, we can give it a better chance of overcoming MR 17:52:41 hm 17:59:12 -!- Cryp71c_ has quit [Quit: Bye] 18:03:11 Cryp71c: if you can, please send the sorted DS mutations patch to the tracker. New content! <3 18:03:12 Crash on startup: dyld: unknown required load command 0x80000022 (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1215) by hesselink 18:04:12 also, sleep 18:04:28 hmm, that bug sounds like a shared library screwup 18:04:28 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: zzz] 18:06:27 -!- DrPraetor has joined ##crawl-dev 18:07:07 -!- TGWi has left ##crawl-dev 18:19:28 gah my op char got killed 18:19:32 by stupid play 18:21:23 -!- nrook has joined ##crawl-dev 18:33:21 Startup problem, probably related to 1215 (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1216) by Kyrris 18:33:56 haha, what 18:34:01 how is that in any way related to 1215 18:43:23 -!- ais523 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:45:16 -!- DrPraetorious has joined ##crawl-dev 18:45:34 -!- DrPraetorious has quit [Client Quit] 18:46:15 -!- Player has joined ##crawl-dev 18:46:34 -!- Alweth has quit [Quit: Think your current client is sexy? Check out Bersirc 2.2! [ http://www.bersirc.org/ - Open Source IRC ]] 18:48:26 -!- DrPraetor has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 18:54:24 shouldn't it prompt you if you try to use a !berserk_rage when worshipping chei? 18:56:40 Hi 18:56:58 Just compiled the Linux version from source 18:57:08 The non-tiles version works fine. 18:57:16 nooo, I just tried "git branch status" to see what branches I have active 18:57:17 but the tiles version is REALLY slow 18:57:21 turns out that makes a new branch called status 18:57:45 (same method of building worked on another machine without this problem) 18:57:54 Do you have any idea what could be the cause? 18:58:17 bad video card drivers 19:24:58 -!- Player has quit [Quit: Page closed] 19:33:19 -!- murphy_slaw has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi] 19:44:35 Ok, I'm going to put a binary with debug symbols on cao 19:44:54 Looks like the frequent CPU killing crashes involve crash dumps :P 19:45:16 -!- Cryp71c_ has joined ##crawl-dev 19:46:09 i thought they just hung and didn't respond to signals? 19:46:18 Oh yes, hangs 19:46:23 I attached to one with gdb 19:46:28 -!- TGWi has joined ##crawl-dev 19:46:39 Actually attached to several 19:46:40 ah, okay 19:46:42 new char select makes me happy 19:46:46 They're all spinning in crash dump code 19:46:59 Assuming I can trust these backtraces 19:47:20 hmm, I could have sworn there was some way to just create maps with a command line argument to crawl, but I don't see it in --help 19:47:31 one thing, though 19:47:45 nrook: rebuild the map cache? 19:48:14 nrook: ./crawl -script genlevel D:1 19:48:31 And look for dump-D-1.map in current directory 19:48:55 For some reason I've been dropping articles in everything I write 19:48:58 who do I complain to about this? 19:49:02 I think IRC is beginning to destroy my grammar 19:49:05 Help! 19:49:21 TGWi, probably Mantis is the easist place to keep track of it all. 19:49:31 Or wiki, if there's a feedback page. 19:49:34 is the wiki page still there? 19:49:46 IDK, I havn't looked recently. 19:49:55 is there a technical limitation preventing it from highlighting the selection instead of recolouring it? 19:50:05 greensnark: ah, alright 19:50:06 I think it would be clearer 19:50:32 TGWi, to that I could not say. 19:50:40 TGWi: I think that's already been noted and will happen 19:50:44 ok good 19:50:53 other thing, "change background" and "change species" aren't capitalized 19:50:59 though the rest of them are 19:51:08 greensnark: thanks 19:51:25 and " 19:51:29 DS changes inc! tomorrow, methinks...after I have time to get the patch reorganized and over to by. 19:51:34 "Viable Species" should be "Viable species" 19:51:43 to match "Random species" and "Viable character" 19:52:04 TGWi: irc is not a bug tracker 19:52:08 good point 19:54:53 Holy hell! 19:54:55 !lg * Shoals 19:54:56 126. Pacra the Grappler (L14 DrMo), worshipper of Fedhas, mangled by a merfolk (a +1,+0 trident) on Shoals:3 on 2010-03-31, with 52807 points after 43814 turns and 3:13:34. 19:54:58 \o/ 19:55:00 \o/ 19:55:34 !lg * 0.6 killer!=uniq place=Snake|Swamp|Shoals s=br 19:55:35 13 games for * (0.6 killer!=uniq place=Snake|Swamp|Shoals): 5x Snake, 5x Shoals, 3x Swamp 19:55:40 Looking good :) 19:55:54 Now we just need an overtaking maneuver 19:56:00 -!- bmh has joined ##crawl-dev 19:56:20 !tv Pacra Shoals 19:56:25 1. Pacra, XL14 DrMo, T:43814 requested for FooTV. 19:57:20 -!- Cryp71c_ has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 19:59:39 Heh, epic splat 20:00:02 The awesome thing about Shoals is how teleport usually worsens the situation :P 20:07:01 Ok, cao is now running a lovely 86M unstripped -O0 -g binary 20:07:06 Let's see how slow it gets :) 20:07:55 where does tab go if I've played a game before? 20:08:10 ok 20:08:12 nevermind 20:09:20 is the number of DS mutations you can have independent of the number of non-DS mutations you can have? 20:10:40 I think it fails to give you a racial mutation if it conflicts with a non-DS mutation 20:10:53 I haven't heard of a cap on mutations 20:11:03 ok, I thought it was limited to 8 or 10 20:11:09 I must be mistaken 20:11:23 -!- Mu_ has quit [Quit: Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place.] 20:11:35 by "conflicts" I mean you already have three levels of the same mutation in non-DS form 20:13:25 Is all unique speech hardcoded? 20:13:58 It's all in text files 20:14:23 Would the dev team be receptive to replacing it with a generative model? 20:16:10 I realize that this isn't really a priority, but I'm going to be doing a lot of HMM hacking in the next few weeks 20:17:45 -!- Xiberia has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:18:00 if you could come up with something that sounds good, possibly 20:18:16 -!- Enne has joined ##crawl-dev 20:23:57 New repeat code still not robust. (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1217) by Kyrris 20:24:57 -!- purge has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:32:13 -!- TGWi has left ##crawl-dev 20:32:21 Kyrris is addicted to the repeat code 20:32:41 good? 20:32:52 doesn't crawl have regression tests? 20:32:52 Good? 20:32:56 Hahahaha 20:33:11 I'll be over in the corner bent over laughing 20:33:30 * Enne sighs. 20:33:38 I think it's a reasonable question... 20:33:41 Hey Enne :) 20:33:42 I was under the impression that 'repeat' was the 'crash the game or something' key so I've never used it much 20:33:46 bmh: the answer is no 20:33:49 Howdy, greensnark. :) 20:34:00 character selection quirks (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1218) by TGW 20:34:04 pointless_: same here 20:36:00 hmm, where should I stuff a #define I want every source file to know about? externs.h? 20:40:23 -!- sorear has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:41:29 -!- sorear has joined ##crawl-dev 20:44:22 nrook: What about defines.h? 20:46:41 -!- Enne has quit [Quit: zzz] 20:47:23 ha, didn't even see that, thanks 20:48:20 -!- bmh has quit [Quit: bmh] 21:06:11 -!- karmatic has joined ##crawl-dev 21:11:28 -!- Cryp71c_ has joined ##crawl-dev 21:11:51 -!- Cryp71c_ has quit [Client Quit] 21:18:43 -!- Gretell has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:18:46 -!- Gretell has joined ##crawl-dev 21:38:45 -!- Snuis has joined ##crawl-dev 21:39:21 -!- nrook has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 21:39:22 -!- Snuis has left ##crawl-dev 21:46:54 -!- eith has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:52:15 -!- purge has joined ##crawl-dev 22:01:26 -!- myuzinn has joined ##crawl-dev 22:16:49 -!- Siber has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:22:49 -!- karmatic has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:27:07 -!- Siber has joined ##crawl-dev 22:29:29 people reporting bad lag on cao 22:41:36 seems fine to me 22:44:33 seems to be intermittent 22:44:44 but when it occurs, I'm getting 30+ seconds lag per keystroke 22:45:01 it's not my connection since footv and such plays fine 23:04:27 -!- pointless_ has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:08:55 -!- TGWi has joined ##crawl-dev 23:17:37 Someone was talking earlier about some processes on CAO getting pretty high up, having to do with mem leakage. IDK if that's related, or if that's already been fixed. 23:17:49 earlier as in, yesterday, I think 23:22:01 well it's fine at the moment in any case 23:26:19 -!- TGWi has left ##crawl-dev 23:41:27 Heh, DrPraetor would like to rewrite the game for 0.7 23:42:31 Also, why am I still getting c-r-d email after unsubscribing :P 23:42:42 * greensnark tries unsub again. 23:43:34 Why would anyone want to unsub from crd 23:43:57 Waste of brain cells 23:44:09 And it tempts me to read :P 23:46:26 haha 23:46:34 that is a pretty ridiculous list 23:55:10 Ok, I have 2 branches, master and my own local one. I can switch back to master really easily, but how can I bring changes from master over to my other branch without a rebase and re-branch? 23:55:24 git merge master 23:55:27 while on your branch 23:55:39 although 23:55:45 why don't you want to rebase? 23:56:01 what are you trying to do? 23:56:08 doy, I'm not done with my branch yet, and doesn't rebase essentially quash the branch back into master? 23:56:12 no 23:56:25 just checkout your branch 23:56:28 and then do git rebase master 23:56:37 and then your branch will be on top of master 23:56:44 the same way it was before 23:56:44 doy, at the precise moment that I branched this dev, I had a copy of master which didn't compile. It gives me a make error about one of the files. 23:56:52 and? 23:56:56 Can't test my branch 23:57:08 so I need to pull master again and merge those changes into my branch so I can test it. 23:57:13 so commit everything, rebase it onto master 23:57:19 and then uncommit the top commit 23:57:26 git reset HEAD^ 23:58:42 HEAD^ will always be Head - 1? 23:58:46 yes 23:58:50 ooo, highly useful. 23:59:05 HEAD^^ will be two commits back 23:59:08 should that be a --hard reset? 23:59:35 no 23:59:46 leaving off --hard means "uncommit, but leave the commit changes in the working copy" 23:59:55 so that you can test them, and then commit something that works