00:03:55 -!- pointless_ has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:13:04 -!- stabwound has quit [] 00:13:45 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 00:54:51 -!- Spads has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:03:04 -!- Twinge has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:03:24 -!- Twinge has joined ##crawl-dev 01:11:28 -!- myuzinn has quit [*.net *.split] 01:11:28 -!- purge has quit [*.net *.split] 01:11:28 -!- zenna has quit [*.net *.split] 01:11:29 -!- rax has quit [*.net *.split] 01:11:29 -!- Napkin has quit [*.net *.split] 01:11:29 -!- mspang_ has quit [*.net *.split] 01:11:29 -!- Gretell has quit [*.net *.split] 01:11:30 -!- kilobyte has quit [*.net *.split] 01:11:30 -!- Zannick has quit [*.net *.split] 01:11:30 -!- sorear has quit [*.net *.split] 01:11:30 -!- Adeon has quit [*.net *.split] 01:11:30 -!- ahpla has quit [*.net *.split] 01:11:31 -!- cbus has quit [*.net *.split] 01:11:31 -!- doy has quit [*.net *.split] 01:11:31 -!- Twinge has quit [*.net *.split] 01:30:02 -!- Twinge has joined ##crawl-dev 01:30:02 -!- myuzinn has joined ##crawl-dev 01:30:02 -!- Adeon has joined ##crawl-dev 01:30:02 -!- Napkin has joined ##crawl-dev 01:30:02 -!- mspang_ has joined ##crawl-dev 01:30:02 -!- sorear has joined ##crawl-dev 01:30:02 -!- Gretell has joined ##crawl-dev 01:30:02 -!- zenna has joined ##crawl-dev 01:30:02 -!- ahpla has joined ##crawl-dev 01:30:02 -!- cbus has joined ##crawl-dev 01:30:02 -!- doy has joined ##crawl-dev 01:30:02 -!- kilobyte has joined ##crawl-dev 01:30:02 -!- Zannick has joined ##crawl-dev 01:30:02 -!- rax has joined ##crawl-dev 01:44:40 -!- ortoslon has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:50:07 -!- ortoslon has joined ##crawl-dev 01:54:41 Ooh yes 01:54:43 !lg * Shoals 01:54:54 120. b0rsuk the Shatterer (L18 OgPa), worshipper of The Shining One, slain by a merfolk impaler (a +5,+2 trident of pain) on Shoals:5 on 2010-03-29, with 172574 points after 63563 turns and 5:35:52. 01:55:09 I've decided that b0rsuk is a great person and I really like him after all 01:55:29 oh? 01:55:44 elly: I love Shoals deaths :P 01:55:56 :P 01:55:59 ?? b0rsuk 01:55:59 b0rsuk[1/6]: b0rsuk is a badger of such great power that he has mastered his own mortality. He is enormous, three-headed and capable of breathing fire. Born before the history of time, he has grown in might and magical mastery. Being immortal, there is nothing left to acquire but godhood. His claws are golden and enchanted. 01:56:09 all you need to know about b0rsuk. 01:56:23 :P 01:56:35 He could have just written "furry" and saved a lot of typing 01:57:34 He used to be pretty specific about the kind of badger too 01:57:44 He insisted on being a eurasian badger iirc 01:57:59 As opposed to cheap mass-produced badgers from elsewhere 01:58:20 ?? b0rsuk[2] 01:58:20 b0rsuk[2/6]: Likes ogres. Raw, with a little mint sauce. 01:58:23 ?? b0rsuk[3] 01:58:23 b0rsuk[3/6]: Has killed Boris 4 times in a game. 01:58:25 ?? b0rsuk[4] 01:58:25 b0rsuk[4/6]: Loves Ball Lightning 01:58:27 ?? b0rsuk[5] 01:58:27 b0rsuk[5/6]: Has actually found a dwarven naga barding and a blessed eudemon blade. (Sic!) 01:58:29 ?? b0rsuk[6] 01:58:29 b0rsuk[6/6]: y - the -3,+15 bardiche of the Penguin (weapon) {god gift, speed, +Blink rElec AC+6} 01:58:40 his sf username is eurasianbadger, if i recall correctly 01:59:17 !lg * Shoals -tv 01:59:18 120. b0rsuk, XL18 OgPa, T:63563 requested for FooTV. 01:59:58 !lg * br=Snake|Swamp|Shoals s=br x=avg(xl),std(xl) 02:00:13 3056 games for * (br=Snake|Swamp|Shoals): 1972x Snake [14;2.0635], 1045x Swamp [14;2.0376], 39x Shoals [15;2.875] 02:00:56 Oh, impaler went berserk :P 02:01:32 !log * Shoals 02:01:33 120. b0rsuk, XL18 OgPa, T:63563: http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/b0rsuk/morgue-b0rsuk-20100329-063626.txt 02:01:33 @??merfolk impaler 02:01:33 merfolk impaler (12m) | Speed: 10 (swim: 60%; atk: 60%) | HD: 12 | Health: 60-108 | AC/EV: 0/18 | Damage: 26 | Flags: amphibious | Res: 06magic(48) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 1073. 02:01:51 I'm not sure how he zerked it, missed that 02:02:17 !lg * shoals -tv 02:02:18 120. b0rsuk, XL18 OgPa, T:63563 requested for FooTV. 02:04:38 Haha, it quaffed a potion of berserk rage 02:04:54 +5 rod of bolt of inaccuracy 02:04:55 nice 02:05:11 bolt of pretty-good-accuracy more like it :) 02:05:20 apparently 02:05:43 Unless TSO really improves to-hit significantly 02:05:51 TSO halo I mean 02:06:02 TSO halo improves to-hit by d6+2 or so 02:06:08 base 1 on inacc 02:06:12 Ah, that would account for it 02:06:18 That makes it pretty useful 02:06:28 +5 on the rod doesn't actually affect spells at all 02:06:31 maybe it should 02:06:55 well, being able to cast it like 6 times in a row does help 02:07:04 !lg * 0.6 br=Snake|Swamp|Shoals s=br x=avg(xl),std(xl) 02:07:05 9 games for * (0.6 br=Snake|Swamp|Shoals): 4x Snake [14;1.4142], 3x Shoals [14;2.4495], 2x Swamp [15;0.5] 02:07:21 Can I have a few more Shoals victims? 02:08:17 !lg * 0.6 br.end=Snake|Shoals|Swamp s=br.end x=avg(xl),min(xl),max(xl) 02:08:17 Bad arg 's=br.end' - cannot summarise by br.end 02:08:22 !lm * 0.6 br.end=Snake|Shoals|Swamp s=br.end x=avg(xl),min(xl),max(xl) 02:08:23 17 milestones for * (0.6 br.end=Snake|Shoals|Swamp): 9x Swamp [17;14;21], 4x Shoals [18;14;21], 4x Snake [18;17;21] 02:09:08 !lm * 0.6 br.end=Shoals s=name x=min(xl),max(xl) 02:09:09 4 milestones for * (0.6 br.end=Shoals): 1x sorear [21;21], 1x hyperbolic [20;20], 1x Stabwound [14;14], 1x Ponce [17;17] 02:09:23 is there anything !lg can't do? 02:09:32 !lm * cv=~0.6 br.end=Shoals s=name x=min(xl),max(xl) 02:09:32 156 milestones for * (cv=~0.6 br.end=Shoals): 17x hyperbolic [20;25], 9x clouded [16;23], 9x 78291 [12;25], 7x DrPraetor [16;22], 7x MarvinPA [16;20], 6x polystyrus [17;27], 5x casmith789 [15;21], 4x Yavar [21;25], 4x pingpong [14;27], 4x Zicher [17;19], 4x Grimm [16;20], 4x moq [20;25], 3x rob [14;14], 3x trucutruu [23;25], 3x trucutru [19;23], 2x Baraton [18;21], 2x Vandal [19;25], 2x KiloByte [... 02:10:00 elly: It cannot do graphs :/ 02:10:09 yet 02:10:23 yet! 02:12:54 A long time ago I suggested getting rid of this ad-hoc query language and replacing the whole setup with !sql select count(*), name, min(xl), max(xl) from milestone where cv like '0.6' and type = 'br.end' and noun = 'Shoals' group by name order by count(*) desc 02:13:04 I think greensnark objected to the verbosity 02:13:25 Raw SQL is never going to happen from IRC 02:13:34 -!- Spads has joined ##crawl-dev 02:13:44 I'd have to use a SQL parser and filter dangerous queries, so no thank 02:13:44 it could 02:13:46 *thanks 02:13:46 HHCIB 02:13:55 HHCIB? 02:14:07 how hard could it be 02:14:41 greensnark: My postings to rgra retained their correct mime headers. So it was dpeg's newsreader who screwed up. He sent unencoded utf-8. 02:15:01 bhaak: What does dpeg use? :) 02:15:10 ("unencoded UTF-8"?) 02:15:32 elly: with no Content-Type header 02:15:35 elly: He means without content-type headers, not unencoded 02:16:03 greensnark: dunno? pine? (me thinks it's no coincidence that pine is the same as the german word for pain) 02:16:10 Hehe 02:16:28 oh 02:17:30 One of his other posts says "Alpine 1.10", but that had Content-Type set correctly 02:17:51 Possibly this Alpine just calls everything charset=US-ASCII, who knows :P 02:17:51 oh, extended pain 02:18:38 no, there are no headers in his announcement that go beyond the minimal requirements. It looks almost like he's done it by hand :) 02:18:52 deeeeeeeeeeeeepeg 02:18:54 Maybe he was learning how to use nc 02:18:56 I wonder if he highlights on that 02:19:11 He's on vacation or some such 02:19:17 oh 02:19:19 weird. 02:19:41 with dpeg gone, I am all-powerful! 02:19:51 none can stand before me in my quest to dominate ##crawl-dev! 02:20:00 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:20:41 Where's the evil laugh? 02:21:34 MUWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA? 02:21:41 * sorear reprograms Gretell to attack elly 02:21:48 Augh! 02:21:53 * elly flees sorear's robot army 02:36:29 I see we still have "The exploding dart explodes" 02:36:47 best phrasing. 02:39:02 I assume that no other type of dart can explode ... 02:39:27 Or, that is to say, in no other situation can a dart explode. 02:39:45 Also, can someone take a look at this patch: http://sprunge.us/JCiN 02:39:57 It fixes a tiny warning in rltiles/tool/tile_list_processor.cc 02:43:34 -!- ixtli has left ##crawl-dev 02:43:48 -!- ixtli has joined ##crawl-dev 02:50:49 -!- Spads has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:53:04 perhaps it should just be renamed 02:53:07 to explosive dart 02:55:27 What's wrong with 'The dart explodes'? :P 02:55:53 what sounds "off" is that exploding is being used as an adjective but can also be construed as a verb 02:56:04 it's still valid but it's odd 02:56:10 explosive is less wonky 02:57:56 dunno if there should be precedent for omitting brands in descriptions 03:00:04 Uniform menu exiting in dgamelaunch configurations (myuzinn) (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1197) by sorear 03:00:23 oh! 03:00:27 thanks :) 03:02:05 I think there's potential for an IRC bug report bot 03:02:27 maybe not direct to the tracker, but at least making triage easier 03:13:49 -!- ortoslon has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:27:15 crawl itself should have a built-in bug reporter 03:27:26 that was my first fr on mantis, i think 03:27:38 -!- ortoslon has joined ##crawl-dev 03:42:28 -!- Spads has joined ##crawl-dev 03:43:24 -!- by has joined ##crawl-dev 03:43:38 hi 03:43:49 Henzell's !copysave seems to be 0.5 still 03:44:09 at least, sorear's copied save has major 5 minor 16 03:46:18 !rc sorear 03:46:18 http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rcfiles/sorear.crawlrc 03:52:27 it's the message dumping, through dump_message_count = 50000 03:52:53 message dumping is much less efficient now? 03:53:29 maybe? there may well be a bug in there somewhere 03:55:20 it does lots of std::string concatenation 03:57:34 does cao redefin NUM_STORED_MESSAGES? 03:58:58 it's probably dumping all 1000 messages 50 times 03:59:59 Uh, I thought we had a cap on dumped messages 04:00:02 -!- ortoslon has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:00:16 Let's just set a cap around 500 04:00:20 there's a cap on stored messages, but the data structure wraps around 04:00:45 Oh, and the dump code doesn't check? Ick 04:01:34 And you use O(n^2) catenation? 04:01:44 That would explain why it's 2,500 times slower 04:03:53 What catenation? 04:04:44 by: Did you just test this theory on cao? :P 04:04:48 03by * rdd91d6230eb7 10/crawl-ref/source/message.cc: Make sure message dumping doesn't dump more messages than available. 04:05:23 by: Can I kill your cao crawl? 04:05:40 sure 04:06:00 I thought reconnecting killed it 04:06:34 It ignores signals 04:06:40 I have to kill -9 it 04:09:22 This message dump bug may not be the only cpu-pegging bug around 04:09:53 At least the rogue crawls I killed earlier today were players who did not have dump_message_count set to anything unusual 04:21:15 did you get crash dumps? 04:25:35 !lg win v=0.6.0 04:25:35 No games for win (v=0.6.0). 04:25:42 !lg * win v=0.6.0 04:25:43 3. pointless the Sensei (L27 MfTm), worshipper of Cheibriados, escaped with the Orb and 3 runes on 2010-03-29, with 1368826 points after 105592 turns and 5:11:57. 04:25:50 !lg * win v=0.6.0 04:25:51 3. pointless the Sensei (L27 MfTm), worshipper of Cheibriados, escaped with the Orb and 3 runes on 2010-03-29, with 1368826 points after 105592 turns and 5:11:57. 04:25:57 !lg * splat v=0.6.0 04:25:57 8. Antti the Crack Shot (L20 HEWz), worshipper of Okawaru, blasted by Boris (bolt of cold) on D:21 on 2010-03-29, with 261578 points after 99102 turns and 7:57:31. 04:30:09 -!- Spads has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:31:35 -!- Spads has joined ##crawl-dev 04:47:52 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 04:48:03 Merry 0.6 everyone. 04:48:04 dpeg: You have 4 messages. Use !messages to read them. 04:49:50 merry 0.6 to you, too 04:52:09 !messages 04:52:09 (1/4) Vandal said (2d 8h 55m 9s ago): leave me a pm with what you needed, I am not spending as much time in front of my PC lately 04:52:18 !messages 04:52:18 (1/3) ogaz said (1d 17h 11m 12s ago): You were right about OgHu, it's a lot more fun than I expected. 04:52:25 !messages 04:52:25 (1/2) due said (8h 37m 29s ago): I killed a six-headed hydra with steel sling bullets. <3. 04:52:28 !messages 04:52:28 (1/1) greensnark said (5h 45m 48s ago): Overflow altars were such a brilliant idea <3 04:52:35 Only good news! :) 04:53:23 bhaak: also, nice codename :P 04:54:54 :) what newsreader do you use? It didn't declare the character set and everybody who doesn't use utf-8 as default character set or google groups will be a bit puzzled 04:55:37 I use Pine. 04:55:50 And I expected the umlauts to become garbled, but what the hecl. 04:56:10 Only few people understand the word anyway. 04:57:09 Results 1 - 10 of about 23,600 for Heizölrückstoßabdämpfung 04:57:16 but they might google it :) 04:57:40 http://robsog.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2008/06/26/heizlrckstoabdmpfung.jpg 04:57:49 For the next release, we have to find a good word from some other language. 05:00:18 the romanization of the iroha poem? kiirohanihohetochirinuruwowakayotaresotsunenaramuuwinookuyamakefukoeteasakiyumemishiwehimosesu 05:00:25 For some reason, once I found this +5 whip of draining and +5 ring of slaying the game became rather absurdly easy P 05:02:16 -!- Spads has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:02:54 Sent a 0.7 agenda suggestion to the ML. 05:02:54 Keskitalo: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 05:02:59 !messages 05:02:59 (1/1) due said (5h 25m 19s ago): Thanks! Silver bullets are my new solution for ugly things. :) 05:03:20 -!- Spads has joined ##crawl-dev 05:03:40 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 05:03:55 greensnark: you have to react with an impromptu conduct. 05:04:00 Heh. :) I don't find ugly things hard to solve though. Meph does most of them except the green ones. 05:04:02 I suggest Zin. 05:04:27 Hmh, I wouldn't mind if Zin repariment was a 0.7 item, I forgot that. 05:04:32 Keskitalo: yes 05:04:44 Keskitalo: the good thing about new ugly things is that we can more easily change them (not just numbers anymore). 05:05:11 dutch isogram: exvakbondsjuryzwijgplicht (but don't ask me what it means :) 05:05:44 dpeg: Yes, they're great! I know I now respond to them with more firepower than earlier. That makes them feel like they aren't harder than before, but they clearly are because I respond more strongly. :) 05:07:12 -!- Spads has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 05:08:19 -!- Mu_ is now known as Mu 05:08:39 -!- Mu is now known as Mu_ 05:08:53 -!- Spads has joined ##crawl-dev 05:18:54 -!- Spads has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:20:33 -!- Spads has joined ##crawl-dev 05:27:38 Nice to see the 0.7 discussed in the backlog too. :) The point about having a release manager already is a good one. 05:29:40 Keskitalo: where? Who? 05:31:15 I just read the channel backlog, doy and greensnark were discussing (the challenges of) doing a balance-centered 0.7 in time for the tournament. 05:31:29 Keskitalo: I second that idea, by the way. 05:32:24 New content is welcome if (a) finished and (b) orthogonal to 0.6 stuff. So, new gods or DS are okay, new stuff around AC/EV/RC is not (balance tweaks are, of course). 05:36:14 -!- hotsun has joined ##crawl-dev 05:37:03 New gods wouldn't ok, we'd want a balanced game for the tournament. 05:37:20 It's completely ok to develop a new god in a separate branch, or in master when 0.7 gets branched though. 05:38:15 What is the timeline for said tournament? 05:38:29 August 05:38:34 It's been in August so far. 05:39:09 k. Figuring just how quickly I need to get back into the mix and finish up the monster depth stuff =) 05:40:16 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 05:43:17 Getting lots of stuff in now could pre-empt the balance release 0.7 idea I guess :] 05:43:19 -!- Ashenzari has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 05:43:59 -!- Ashenzari has joined ##crawl-dev 05:44:00 -!- The topic of ##crawl-dev is: DCSS development channel! | Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki | Ashenzari source: http://github.com/doy/crawlbot 05:44:05 I suppose having a 0.6.2 or whatever instead of a 0.7 in time for the tournament is probably just as good. 05:44:54 Twinge: Sprint would be amazing for tournaent, that's all. Well, I guess it could go into 0.6.x too.. 05:45:34 Except that CAO is not updating maps between minor versions, so it's not going to work. 05:46:38 Yeah. I don't know the pattern and process behind deciding on revision points, so can't really say there. I just agree that aiming to have 'some level of next stable release' in time for the tournament is a good idea =) 05:47:23 Keskitalo: CAO can update maps between minor versions, it just requires using a different datadir 05:47:28 CAO is not updating maps just because Crawl won't update db files while locked, which is a silly restriction 05:47:46 and it's relevant on DOS and Win98 only, too 05:48:14 Crawl will update db files happily, but running Crawls panic when they see files changed under them 05:48:19 That could be fixed 05:48:43 on Unix and WinNT you can replace files that are being used, the old process will continue using the deleted version 05:49:15 don't we keep dbs open? 05:52:11 The sqlite dbs, yes 05:52:11 I think 05:52:11 ah, but not the level files, right? 05:52:11 Yeah, those also flaked out last update 05:52:12 not the level files 05:52:12 then there's another solution: downtime 05:52:12 But the problem is that an old Crawl process that wants to use a map looks at the compiled level file and sees it has changed and doesn't try to recover from that; it just does a panic save 05:52:12 And our panic save code is prone to bitrot 05:52:12 Last time it happened in the 0.5.1 upgrade players had stuff like friendlies going hostile on reload :P 05:52:12 And even using a different datadir is not straightforward because crawl writes compiled stuff to savdir 05:52:12 And you need the same savedir to load old saves 05:52:12 -!- Ashenzari has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 05:52:51 -!- Ashenzari has joined ##crawl-dev 05:52:51 -!- The topic of ##crawl-dev is: DCSS development channel! | Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki | Ashenzari source: http://github.com/doy/crawlbot 05:52:59 need a new version installed? 05:53:23 I should file a BR to track these problems 06:03:06 so, Keskitalo for release manager? 06:03:15 greensnark: DOOO IIIT 06:03:40 * sorear thinks he should write a BR-ing ##crawl-dev bot 06:03:46 I have a shop in flames here 06:04:01 so you can file proper tickets without leaving IRC 06:06:51 -!- hotsun has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Nine out of ten l33t h4x0rz prefer it] 06:28:04 just back 06:28:11 Keskitalo: Ashenzari has code already 06:43:45 -!- lorimer_ is now known as lorimer 06:43:51 greensnark: Yeah, filing this stuff is <3 <3 Are you saying that fixing that thing would be possible in 0.6.x? 06:45:30 Keskitalo: it would be one step towards a mail system (where we can reply to tracker items by mail) 06:46:21 Erm, you're talking about Ashenzari the bot? I'm talking about CAO updating maps between minor versions. 06:46:53 gah, compiling on my eeepc takes ages :( 06:47:06 felirx: Hi! 06:47:18 Keskitalo: I am talking about Ashenzari the god. 06:47:24 i presumably fixed the bug, as long as I get the compile done 06:47:36 felirx: we will patiently for another week :) 06:47:42 *wait 06:47:49 In about 15mins! 06:47:57 !coffee felirx 06:47:57 * Henzell hands felirx a pot of black coffee, brewed by Cerebov. 06:48:07 Keskitalo: I don't know about fixing it for 0.6.x, but it should be fixed at some point :) 06:48:31 Usage stats skyrocketed over the weekend, as they should. 06:48:37 I even say greensnark on Henzell :P 06:49:00 was 0.6 announced anywhere except cdo and usenet? 06:49:18 by: I cannot read SA these days. 06:49:24 !seen syllogism 06:49:25 I last saw syllogism at Sun Mar 28 20:34:50 2010 UTC (15h 14m 35s ago) quitting without a message. 06:49:34 I'd imagine linux gaming websites would also be good places to announce 06:49:53 dpeg: I have two games going :P 06:49:55 !whereis 06:49:57 @whereis 06:49:57 greensnark the Black Belt (L21 HaMo), a worshipper of Xom, saved on D:27 on 2010-03-28 after 81177 turns. 06:50:04 by: yes. I hope the rgra posting is enough to get the news to the few rl websites (TotRL etc.) 06:50:06 greensnark the Basher (L14 HuFi), a worshipper of Makhleb, last saved on Lair:8 on 2010-03-29 after 27221 turns. 06:50:15 HuFi - blech :P 06:50:21 Have to test heavy armour :P 06:50:26 I guess that was a random roll... 06:50:31 I'm stuck in 0.6-rc on cdo master... 06:50:32 No 06:50:32 Oh, how does it feel like? 06:50:38 Early heavy armour + shield is rocky 06:50:43 by: stuck? 06:50:53 greensnark: yes, we may want to adapt the Fighter template. 06:50:54 Once you skill up a bit heavy armour is fine 06:51:02 More Shield skill, or smaller shield or something. 06:51:34 I actually played several HuFi :P 06:51:37 dpeg: my 0.6-rc game transferred to the 0.7 installation, so I have to finish it before playing 0.7 06:51:42 This is the first that gained traction 06:51:43 ah! 06:52:01 greensnark: I also tested some (DD or MD, I believe) and found it to be okay. 06:52:13 dpeg: Best armour aptitudes :P 06:52:15 yes 06:52:30 I'm more interested in good but not ridiculous aptitudes 06:52:34 Thus, Hu :P 06:52:42 I see, reasoning accepted :) 06:52:48 I have a feeling you might be able to win a 0AC 0EV 0SH mountain dwarf without too much trouble 06:52:59 "I only play these humans for testing purposes, they're never meant to be won!" 06:53:08 The Fi start is quite messy now 06:53:21 Armour+shield slows you down and blocks many of your attacks, it feels much worse than 0.5 06:53:30 dpeg: Where's the code? As long as it's not already in master, it could well wait for 0.8. The time is short. :) Perhaps we could have a short list of good candidates (Ash certainly is one), where it needs to be reasonable finished by say the start of June to get in 0.7. 06:53:52 I am trying to contact minced first, to see how reaosnable a push is. 06:53:52 Hi 06:53:56 Due!!! 06:54:04 what have I done? :S 06:54:09 did you see my message re: slings + hydra? 06:54:11 You said "Hi" 06:54:12 So are we committed to a July release for the hypothetical next.major.version? 06:54:15 yes! 06:54:18 Yay 06:54:19 greensnark: yes 06:54:25 wait 06:54:31 I have until july for the holy creatures overhaul? 06:54:36 That's only four months?! 06:54:40 due: No, that would be pushed to 0.8. 06:54:45 :| 06:54:50 But I wanted to start work on it! 06:54:58 due: you can and should! 06:54:58 The aim of the release would be to get balance & Sprint for tournament. 06:55:02 Release has to be before mid-July so we get some playtesting before the tourney proper 06:55:03 Okay. 06:55:06 Ahhh okay. 06:55:13 Sprint tourney, excellent idea! 06:55:19 due: :) 06:55:20 due: You can and should! Do it in a branch, until 0.7 is branched. 06:55:27 Only one day, of course. 06:55:50 So we're going for 0.7 for the tourney, not 0.6.1? 06:55:56 due: I think so, yes. 06:56:29 (I've also had to give up on play-testing posts, not enough motivation.) 06:56:58 due: It was a huge job, I don't wonder. Don't feel bad! Those were great. :) 06:57:04 there might be a danger of having nobody willing to code for balancing & bug fixing (though that's probably even more a problem if people only code for features) 06:57:44 Yes, it won't work if no-one would do the work. :) 06:57:46 I'm fine to bugfix 07:02:30 [ERROR: no desc for item name 'javelin (runed)' 07:03:13 ahpla: How are you getting that? 07:03:16 ahpla: Exact steps? 07:03:34 dpeg: About to kill a hydra with a sling. Tuning in? 07:03:39 due: runed javelins auto-id'd as javelins of penetration 07:03:42 due: yes 07:03:46 due: are you trying to get slings nerfed? 07:03:48 dpeg: on CAO 07:03:59 by: no, I'm using a +6 sling, with bracers of archery and +4 steel bullets. 07:04:35 And it still takes around 6 or 7 hits to kill. 07:04:39 Or more. 07:04:43 dpeg: watching? 07:04:55 ahpla: I'm not sure why it's using that short form though, it doesn't make sense. 07:04:59 due: yes 07:05:14 dpeg: :D 07:05:14 A fire/frost branded bow is very good against hydras as well. 07:05:30 Hm, rupie. 07:05:35 due: copy save and file br? 07:05:53 ahpla: Please do! 07:06:07 And slings at 22. 07:06:16 due: please comment at https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:rc 07:06:42 dpeg: I'm happy ywith it; it's viable, but mulch rates still aren't right, at least for stones. 07:07:05 due: not enough mulching? 07:07:09 Got to run, two hours to an exam and I think I just try to study a bit. 07:07:12 I suppose not... 07:07:14 Keskitalo: good luck 07:07:16 I've got pretty well enchanted bullets. 07:07:22 Didn't a mulch nerf go into 0.6? 07:07:32 due: does 0.6 use the old x/(1+x) formula or 3/(3+x) of trunk? 07:07:52 There was a nerf, but I don't think that one made it into 0.6. 07:07:56 dpeg: No idea... 07:08:09 Speed 60 sling. :) 07:09:55 !lg Sebi Shoals 07:10:02 1. Sebi the Eclecticist (L13 DESt), worshipper of Sif Muna, slain by an air elemental (summoned by the player character) on Shoals:5 on 2010-03-26, with 43046 points after 40666 turns and 7:35:16. 07:10:12 Oh right, that old splat 07:10:41 due: but please report about your slingers on that wiki page. Feedback from someone qualified who actually has played the system is very valuable. 07:10:51 Antti's is not that valuable :/ 07:10:58 Sling of frost! 07:11:23 dpeg: It's extremely viable. I'm not sure if it's too viable--but once you get enough enchantments and ammunition, it's comparable to magic. 07:11:42 due: how are your other skills going? 07:12:04 Badly :) 07:12:20 I can take on ranged fighters without an issue though. 07:12:24 ie: this cyclops won't kill me. 07:13:24 Okay, that's an awkward prompt. 07:13:46 Anyone looking? 07:14:31 ERROR: no desc for item name 'javelin (runed)' (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1198) by ahpla 07:15:29 Doesn't identify the mimic, either. 07:16:00 due: file an issue, please? 07:16:07 by: Sure, got a screenshot 07:19:10 Just replied to the 0.7 mail. And promptly forgot to plead for some interface improvements, bummer. 07:21:16 :) 07:21:22 We need to fix ( and ) disparity. 07:21:27 It's driving me *nuts*. 07:21:34 the quiver seems to be quite broken 07:21:40 due: yes, that's a bug I've been filing into SF a loooong time ago. 07:21:42 ( cycles everything. 07:21:52 ) just... randomly doesn't include things. 07:21:56 due: they should be absolutely equivalent. Do you know where the bug is? 07:22:10 dpeg: I think ) might be only showing ammunition previously fired? 07:22:20 I believe that Napkin made a reply on the Mantis item where he investigated the matter. 07:22:24 I don't really know, to be honest. It did seem to come across like that to me, though. 07:22:38 I'll have a look at it tomorrow, I'm bakking so it's a free day while stuff cooks. 07:22:41 Can you assign the bug to me? 07:22:50 My connection is quite bad so finding it would be difficult for me. 07:22:51 \o/ 07:22:55 there are a number of possibly related bugs on the tracker 07:23:14 say Q not listing some items arbitrarily 07:24:35 Mimic given away with "are you sure you wish to attack" prompt while autoexploring (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1199) by bookofjude 07:24:36 by: report made re: mimic 07:24:42 Go, Ashenzari is quick now. 07:25:55 I haven't seen this vault before. 07:26:28 Rakshasas and unseen horrors? 07:30:14 it works! 07:30:52 due: it seems quite frequent in 0.6, had it twice 07:31:23 I don't remember it going in. 07:31:31 Must be one of those many maps by wossname iwth the name starting with m? 07:31:54 felirx: awesome 07:31:54 mu? 07:32:00 No, not mu 07:32:06 felirx: would you upload it? 07:32:09 Oh, iit is Mu's. 07:32:10 by: would you integrate it? 07:32:25 Hm, nice loot, but OCS aand vamp knights, yeuch. 07:32:31 sure 07:32:39 Today I'll be giving commit rights to Mu. His maps are of outstanding quality. Any objections? 07:32:44 the OCS is positioned nicely with the glass 07:33:17 due: can you show me the vault again? 07:34:34 I have the same problem again 07:34:43 git checkout does nothing on my laptop 07:34:53 bloody windows default settings 07:36:36 dpeg: sounds good. 07:37:21 due: thanks 07:37:25 good vault, yes 07:37:52 felirx: fuck the windows, use linux like everybody else :P 07:38:09 can't play new games on linux. 07:38:29 by: hot action :) 07:38:33 :) 07:38:42 felirx: so you need two partitions, like everybody else :) 07:38:48 of course I don't know why my netbook still has winxp 07:38:55 too lazy to dual boot on my desktop 07:38:59 by: :( 07:39:08 Wait, I thought he already had the rune and left 07:39:11 almost always working with something directX related or playing a game anyway 07:39:15 What happened there? 07:39:17 !tv rob 07:39:22 1584. rob, XL16 HaCK, T:50197 requested for FooTV. 07:39:41 berserk merfolk impaler 07:39:53 How did he go berserk 07:40:03 my dagger of chaos probably 07:40:25 Oh, chaos :P 07:40:47 Would you like to read some words by Linley (10/2009)? 07:40:59 So you were that keen to get to playing 0.7, huh? :P 07:41:17 the splat does look a little suicidal I imagine 07:41:59 I set autocrlf to true and still git checkout does nothing :( 07:42:01 Yes :P 07:42:24 it's a contrib thing though 07:42:33 felirx: git submodule update 07:42:56 Or if you've been manually editing stuff in a submodule, you need to run checkout in there, not in the parent 07:43:20 haven't modified anything on my laptop there which is the funny part :) 07:43:54 Submodules will show up as dirty if someone updated the submodule reference in master and you pll that 07:44:24 You must run git submodule update 07:44:26 Does anyone have the email address of Guus Sliepen ready? 07:44:44 He was present on c-r-d some time ago. 07:44:45 dpeg: What were Linley's 10-2009 words? 07:44:51 I still check r.g.r.misc every now and then, so I've kept up with most of the progress of Stone Soup. It looks great! Thanks for keeping it alive :) 07:44:55 Maybe one day it will get to the roguelike top spot, although nethack will be pretty hard to dislodge. 07:45:06 And I am just now swetting 07:45:28 Oh, was that all? :P 07:45:33 yes :) 07:45:41 up another email to the oldtimers (Linley, Paul, Erik, hopefully Guus, unfortunately not BRent) about 0.6. 07:46:00 could include Mark Mackey, I guess 07:46:02 My mail here has Guus Sliepen 07:46:13 thanks 07:47:15 oh well, I'll upload the patch after my exam 07:47:27 the laptop is not wanting to co-operate today 07:47:41 felirx: thanks for patch, good luck with exam. 07:47:56 that's in http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=575626 also 07:48:15 looks like debian is getting 0.6 packages soon 07:49:18 anyway, weapons of chaos don't seem overpowered; a chaos stabber is workable but risky 07:53:42 by: yes, that sounds good 08:04:03 by: it was uploaded yesterday, but ftp-master is down due to a hardware failure, so new package uploads are stored but not processed 08:05:00 kilobyte: nice, thanks! 08:21:04 -!- ortoslon has joined ##crawl-dev 08:29:00 -!- by has quit [Disconnected by services] 08:29:01 -!- by_ has joined ##crawl-dev 08:33:57 -!- by_ is now known as by 08:49:43 I just found a door standing in the middle of an area with no walls around it?? 08:50:11 feature 08:50:34 for pillar dancing? 09:08:12 bhaak: I once proposed to get rid of those, but some diehard lovers of open doors on open field intercepted. 09:08:51 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 09:10:11 i don't really understand what they heck they are doing there 09:10:18 as far as i can tell, they serve no purpose 09:12:02 no purpose 09:12:14 The main question is if it's worth the trouble to get rid of them. 09:12:22 Some, including me, say yes. Others say no. 09:13:01 by: did you notice that Xiberia's ghost's speak had a "@to_foe" or something in it? 09:13:06 no 09:13:25 thanks 09:15:44 03by * r2120451c03d5 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/database/monspeak.txt: Fix buggy ghost speech line (st). 09:28:17 hmm, what to play, 0.6 or 0.7, i'm torn 09:28:39 0.7 foo 09:28:54 how else are you going to die to spider caves and such 09:30:33 -!- sorear has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:31:17 -!- sorear has joined ##crawl-dev 09:31:25 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 09:32:04 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 09:33:26 those must be hippies! dancing naked around opened or closed doors, can only be hippies 09:34:02 bhaak: I think that sitting in front of a standalone door is very Zen-like. 09:34:23 Username: DACOD 09:34:23 E-mail: psmith@spod-central.org 09:34:37 Anybody recalls this nice chap? 09:34:45 sure :) 09:35:13 what did he do? 09:35:28 He just signed up for the Mantis tracker. 09:35:59 and last time? 09:36:42 by: He is Dylan who maintains the r.g.r.nethack FAQ, among other things (like spoilers). 09:39:04 dpeg: HIPPIES!! 09:40:01 -!- Cryp71c_ has joined ##crawl-dev 09:40:06 ah, nice; I interpreted that "nice chap" differently 09:40:16 -!- Cryp71c_ is now known as Cryp71c 09:40:17 Steel sling bullets misdescribed (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1200) by DACOD 09:41:50 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Client Quit] 09:42:01 by: no, Dylan is a genuinely good fellow. I imagine him to be just like an English gentleman. 09:44:23 if a bazaar gateway is not flickering and I don't hear any coins, it's permanent, right? 09:44:26 03by * r70c8b6cb1d08 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/portals/bazaar.des: Fix bazaar portal description spacing. 09:44:37 by: yes 09:45:13 thanks; off to orc sooner I guess 09:54:27 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 09:55:42 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Client Quit] 09:57:10 Ooh, Dylan on Mantis <3 09:57:47 The last I heard of him, he was playing WoW so I gave him up as doomed :P 09:58:03 wow, nethack and WoW :-) 09:58:06 They always come back :) 09:58:22 yeah, that's what the poll said :) 09:58:41 Back to NH? Haha 09:58:46 I wonder if he's still playing NH. The bimonthly faqs are sent, but they're untouched for years.... 09:58:54 bhaak: you could ask Dylan to mention UnNH. 09:59:03 Well, he uses that autoposter for the FAQ 09:59:03 hmmm 09:59:10 bbl 09:59:28 greensnark: of course 10:00:03 He was also present when we discussed a stealth god on c-r-d. Out of the sudden, there was a mail by Dylan, pointing out the randart with "Ratri" in its description :) 10:01:42 colouring of items by skill in the stat area is a little irritating -- axes seem so useless 10:02:24 by: you mean fixed colours for weapon types? 10:02:42 the fact that my wielded axe is dark grey in th Wp: line 10:03:34 particularly that it stays dark grey when branded 10:03:38 We could also use a different system: mundane weapons use the actual skill to determine colour, e.g. 0-5 darkgrey, 6-10 lightgrey etc. What do you think? 10:04:14 seems fairly pointless 10:04:20 syllogism: why? 10:04:34 The current system encodes something with colour that's already on the screen: weapon type. 10:04:52 The new system would encode information from another screen ('m'). 10:05:03 presumably you already know your weapon skill as well 10:05:18 You would see visually that using the club accidentally is a bad idea (b/c of darkgrey). 10:05:45 not sure, but certainly 0-5 is not a good choice in the early game 10:06:09 by: well, other numbers then. Or it was just an idea. 10:06:23 besides 0-5 for giant spiked club isn't quite the same as for a sabre 10:06:46 maybe the colour just shouldn't apply to Wp/Qv 10:06:56 We have the freedom to use the colour of the Wp and Qv items. Don't have to use it for somethign, but could. 10:07:15 I believe that skill 0 ==> darkgrey would help. 10:07:33 And perhaps best skill ==> white. 10:08:04 that sounds better (best melee/ranged though, maybe?) 10:08:11 by: yes 10:08:26 -!- Spads has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:08:34 we could also use colours for egos, if we like. 10:09:03 yes, just the "(flame)" red would be nice I think 10:09:10 As always, there is no detail of the interface that's not worth thinking about. 10:09:13 by: that's a good one 10:09:49 especially with the branding spells 10:11:05 I so love merging slime creatures. 10:11:20 Zaba: :) 10:11:33 !lg killer=titanic slime creature -tv 10:11:33 No games for joosa (killer=titanic slime creature). 10:11:37 !lg * killer=titanic slime creature -tv 10:11:37 4. q, XL14 MDPa, T:86912 requested for FooTV. 10:11:58 maaaaaaaaybe adjusted weapon delay could be shown somewhere; of course not exactly, but knowing your delay is 10 or lower would be rather helpful 10:12:14 syllogism: make a proposal! 10:12:17 Please :) 10:12:50 yes, weapon delay would be nice to know 10:13:13 4.1 had interesting information about the weapon under @ 10:13:40 hah, that titanic slime hits hard 10:13:50 We show weapon attack delay (110% etc) we can show effective attack delay when wielded 10:14:01 -!- casmith789 has joined ##crawl-dev 10:14:08 hm. 10:14:12 greensnark: yes, but not as %s, I hope :) 10:14:14 But it's randomy 10:14:31 is it the devteam's intention to cause an instadeath for any character without -TELE or a wand of digging/disintegration when entering a labyrinth? 10:14:32 dpeg: We show base attack delay as % :P 10:14:36 five adjectives will suffice 10:14:42 greensnark: yes, too many numbers 10:14:57 casmith789: Yes it is, it is, that's why we have a warning message -- reverse psychology! 10:14:59 casmith789: this is not an instadeath 10:15:06 casmith789: first, it's a slow death, if at all 10:15:09 heh 10:15:30 casmith789: do you mean the minotaur? 10:15:35 no 10:15:42 teleport trap just before the mino's door 10:15:44 what happened? 10:15:48 oh 10:15:55 casmith789: there was a warning 10:16:11 which one? 'you may starve?' 10:16:17 casmith789: there's a path without trap 10:16:20 no, a warning in the lab vault 10:16:25 oh right 10:16:33 it's okay I have a wand of digging 10:16:36 just very annoying 10:16:37 :) 10:16:45 !lg * killer=titanic slime creature x=dam 10:16:45 4. [dam=70] q the Severer (L14 MDPa), worshipper of The Shining One, annihilated by a titanic slime creature on D:18 on 2010-03-03, with 62960 points after 86912 turns and 4:40:10. 10:16:56 dpeg: "slow instadeath" is the usual term for that sort of thing in NetHack; Crawl doesn't have many of them, though 10:17:10 !lg * Killer=titanic slime x=avg(dam) 10:17:12 No games for * (Killer=titanic slime) 10:17:15 err 10:17:16 ais523: this is not a death at all, unless the player starves 10:17:20 !lg * killer=titanic slime x=avg(dam) 10:17:20 No games for * (killer=titanic slime) 10:17:25 !lg * killer=~titanic slime x=avg(dam) 10:17:26 oh right, there is more than one entrance 10:17:33 dpeg: it's starving I was talking about 10:17:54 4 games for * (killer=~titanic slime): avg(dam)=80 10:18:05 okay, digging doesn't work, it just looks like it should due to bad graphics :/ 10:18:43 that's a one in 3 chance for no real reason 10:18:56 is this meant to represent nethack's astral plane or something? 10:19:08 you can detect traps, though 10:19:08 -!- dpeg_ has joined ##crawl-dev 10:19:12 true 10:19:18 seems a bit pointless though 10:19:43 casmith789: I agree it's a mean and evil vault. But it is (a) very rare, (b) equipped with a warning, (c) by me. 10:19:52 I never saw (b_ 10:19:54 (b) 10:20:17 "there's a nasty monster for no real reason" 10:20:22 that's pretty much equivalent 10:20:23 casmith789: there have been other traps in the pathway? 10:20:29 yes 10:20:30 casmith789: also, why are there three doors? 10:20:32 see! 10:20:36 lol 10:20:43 that was true of all 3 doors though 10:21:01 casmith789: the point is that you learn and search for traps :) 10:21:09 in these hallways 10:21:21 what am I meant to do? abandon okawaru, kill the monsters, and learn traps and doors? 10:21:33 searching for traps didn't work :P 10:21:36 what 10:21:45 casmith789: are you pressing . or 5? 10:21:47 my skill is 3 and I pressed 5 10:22:01 and the second way apparently still had a trap on 10:22:03 no matter :) 10:22:24 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 10:22:26 casmith789: they all have traps, but one does not have a tele trap. 10:22:30 I could change that, of course... 10:22:38 I will forgive you if the loot is good :) 10:22:51 I hope the best :) 10:23:12 casmith789 doesn't need anything to make the game easier 10:23:18 okay cool, I forgive you 10:23:26 Adeon: heh 10:23:32 * dpeg_ feels absolved by Father casmith789. 10:23:53 dpeg! 10:24:39 why would you put a tele trap on /every/ route out of a lab? 10:25:10 elllllly! 10:25:26 ais523: only 2/3 of them 10:25:32 ais523: I could change it so that one out of the three paths has no traps at all. 10:25:39 ah 10:34:42 anyone know a "clean" way to find an entry to the left or right of an object in 2d-plane 10:34:55 or will I just cast a ray and iterate the menu_entries vector n number of times? 10:35:43 felirx: how is your data presented? 10:36:01 a vector that holds the entries, sorted by push_back order :D 10:36:39 felirx: and you know how many rows the columns have? 10:36:54 that follows from the number of entries, right? 10:36:55 dpeg: The lab vault with teleport trap was Lemuel's, I thought? 10:36:56 nop 10:37:20 greensnark: they're all mine, although I can understand why they're generally attributed to Lemuel. 10:37:21 it's basicly a free 2d-canvas with nothing but constraints checked when adding an entry 10:37:41 dpeg: But I distinctly remember Lemuel submitting some lab vaults! 10:37:46 And one of them had a teleport trap :P 10:37:46 yes, he did 10:37:54 for example the zombie minotaur 10:38:10 He also did one with three paths and a teleport trap, didn't he? Or was that yours? 10:38:33 I think that's mine... but I may forget. I did the one with the abyss portal. 10:38:55 -!- dpeg_ has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:38:55 !lm * 0.6 rune=barnacled|serpentine|decaying s=rune x=avg(xl) 10:38:56 14 milestones for * (0.6 rune=barnacled|serpentine|decaying): 7x decaying [18], 4x serpentine [19], 3x barnacled [18] 10:39:17 Dammit people, go to Shoals :P 10:39:28 !lm * rune=golden x=avg(xl) 10:39:31 Looks like I need to allow a month for players to get over their Shoalsophobia 10:39:36 795 milestones for * (rune=golden): avg(xl)=26 10:39:47 greensnark: perhaps it's harder than the others and people keep dying there 10:39:56 It isn't harder though :P 10:39:56 greensnark: yes, encrusted opinions change very slowly 10:40:14 what makes you think that? 10:40:18 at least the random choice works well =) 10:40:35 as in, how can you gauge the relative difficulties of branches? 10:40:37 It was harder for a brief period, but everyone remembers that and clings to the impression that it's deadly :P 10:40:38 other than by watching what people do 10:40:45 should I somehow sort the data mmm 10:40:46 ais523: we played it 10:40:48 ais523: I've played them a lot and watched people playing them a lot :P 10:41:09 basicly, the Menu class has no way of knowing in what order the user inputs the data 10:41:12 Once the newness wears off we'll see just how effective the Shoals are! 10:41:18 felirx: let me get this straight... you have a vector with N entries and you present it in a plane? 10:41:30 the vector is only for holding data 10:41:35 ah 10:41:38 just think of it has a vector to pointer of data entries 10:41:49 this is not for "which species is left of Demonspawn" 10:41:50 data entries themselves know their co-ordinates 10:41:58 in general ;) 10:42:12 since if the same class will be used for eg. constructing the help menus to work with mouse 10:44:42 Stray thought: I love Final Fantasy 10, and one of the reasons why is that it not only has turn based combat with variable action lengths and thus variable turn order and occasional enemy double moves and so forth, but it also has an interface whereby it shows you who gets to have the next several turns 10:45:18 Someone in the speed randomization debate mentioned that it's a pain in the ass, even unrandomized, to keep track of when an enemy is going to get a double turn. 10:45:35 Siber: I believe the appropriate reaction to double-smiting (or whichever other deadly activity) is to make sure that double actions are only used for walking 10:45:41 by has a branch for that 10:45:44 Right? 10:46:00 Well, this idea is strictly tangental to the randomization debate 10:46:09 But related! 10:46:23 I don't know if that can really be applyed to crawl, or how you would weave it into the UI, but my mind made the connection and I thought I'd drop it off here 10:46:24 So only somewhat tangential. 10:46:31 Related indeed. 10:46:39 Siber: turn it into an Fr, if you can. 10:46:40 hard to track those things for many enemies though 10:46:46 would require a huge terminal 10:47:24 or a seperate screen you can flip to. sorta like the memorization interface 10:47:42 oh yeah that'd work 10:47:50 Not ideal, but perhaps. 10:48:30 I'd probably be okay with the random energy thing if we were able to see the movement order like that 10:48:39 or at least know when it was going to happen 10:48:52 doesn't that defy the point of the randomness? :P 10:48:57 "hydra is about to move twice!" or something 10:49:03 yeah, not happening 10:49:17 unrelated note. By wiggling mouse fast enough in tiles, I can get it to reder at 400 fps! 10:53:44 felirx: excellent workout! 10:53:57 syllogism: I believe the main problem is the double attacks. 10:54:14 it is 10:54:36 but it's also screwed up that they can move from 2 steps away and hit you 10:54:38 syllogism <--> stabwound, of course 10:54:41 or follow you down stairs 10:54:46 stabwound: but that's much more acceptable 10:54:57 stabwound: some of us are unhappy with how stairs work, anyway 10:55:15 But being smitten/shot/whatever twice in a row is much harsher. 10:55:26 just assume they move 2 then when escaping 10:56:16 syllogism: do you know if 0.6 was announced on SA? I have no way of checking... 10:56:23 it was 10:56:27 syllogism: by you? 10:56:28 dpeg: syllogism announced it :) 10:56:39 dpeg: Some of the recent SA posts are hilarious 10:56:51 Thank you! I expect there were the usual awesome replies 10:57:05 "I keep dying on SA, this sucks so much. Why did they fuck this up?" 10:57:21 greensnark: SA is closed for non-members right now. 10:57:26 the game is definitely harder, the energy change aside 10:57:43 stabwound: sure, but the game got easier with 0.3-0.5. 10:57:47 yeah 10:57:47 No, more like "I haven't played and don't understand how to play Fedhas so it is self-evident tht Fedhas sucks" :P 10:57:52 We always said that there will be compensation later. 10:58:03 greensnark: gotta <3 that 10:58:22 also a lot of whining about heavy armour penalties and how they aren't being conveyed 10:58:30 greensnark: another great piece of SA dialectics: "Fedhas uses a finite resource, ergo Fedhas sucks." 10:58:54 the food in this game is finite, thus food sucks 10:59:11 felirx: fruits are more finite ==> Fedhas sucks harder :) 10:59:22 mana in this game is finite, thus mana sucks! 10:59:26 or finiter, as we mathematicians say 10:59:47 dpeg: haha, I remember that one 11:00:11 ok, time for a quick spin 11:00:18 "At this point, it's pretty impossible for someone who hasn't understood all the underlying (hidden!) mechanisms to determine the worth of a piece of equipment. " 11:00:39 eh 11:00:50 wow 11:01:00 it's pretty obvious which armor/weapon is better than the other 11:01:00 that was by some guy who joined yesterday "because of threads like this" 11:01:35 It's never easy to perfectly evaluate equipment in a game you're new at. 11:01:43 ... what was I thinking 11:01:57 If I cast a ray, I'll only have to go through the item vector once... 11:02:02 and not gazillion times 11:02:42 simple little vector math to see if a finite line collides with a rectangular object... 11:02:59 felirx: aren't your rectangles all in a grid? 11:03:14 in x,y 11:03:23 within boundaries 11:03:26 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:03:55 however, they are stored in a way that if the user of a menu wanted to, he could add 27 entries on top of each other 11:05:27 but you could say "right" goes to the entry with y2=y and x2>x, or y2 uh, y2>y 11:05:52 ? 11:06:16 (first entry at (x,y), second at (x2,y2)) 11:06:43 what if the end user, in his infinite wisdom has composed the menu in a way that he first pushes the first column, then the third and second lastly ;) 11:07:30 you mean the order of the menu entries in your data structure? 11:08:01 you have to traverse the entries, from let's say start to end in any implementation 11:08:33 in raycasting... we would have the same problem too 11:08:45 if I were to just return the first entry found by ray mmm 11:09:00 going through all entries on every arrow key hit is cheap enough I think 11:09:09 it is 11:09:21 the only question is, if I should do a linear intersection math, or your solution 11:09:42 in essence, all the items are saved in a console compatible coordinates 11:10:49 what should happen in cases where there are gaps in the entry 11:10:52 /w/ 21 11:10:53 oops 11:10:57 I am not happy about randart armours revealing all their properties. 11:11:40 imagine the species menu, what if the two entries right of "human" are missing. Should it intelligently select the first entry available, or just do nothing? 11:11:42 yeah, I was surprised that I didn't have to ID much/any randarts 11:11:56 dpeg: is that new? 11:12:03 no 11:12:28 felirx: I think my suggestion above would be quite intuitive here 11:12:30 didn't it used to tell you "this item may have hidden properties" ors omething 11:12:35 jewellery 11:12:43 doesn't really make much sense 11:12:58 to have randart armour id completely and not jewellery 11:12:58 syllogism: you agree with making hidden properties hidden again? 11:13:02 by: so if there are no other entries on the same line, just do nothing? 11:13:02 felirx: in a normal grid, with the item to the right missing, it would go down 11:13:14 dpeg: "again"? Wasn't this always the case 11:13:18 fair enough 11:13:20 well, jewellery used to not reveal anything 11:13:46 but yes I agree 11:13:49 felirx: in the right column, it would go to the left-most entry in the next row 11:14:36 felirx: ideally with a special case to go from the last (right-most in bottom row) to the first (left-most in top row) 11:15:23 syllogism: no 11:15:37 felirx: listen to by :) 11:15:41 dpeg: are you sure 11:15:49 in the special cases it will require an additional traverse but I see no other choice either 11:15:54 felirx: this just orders menu entries lexicographically, and cycles through with left/right; up/down would require an order with x and y swapped 11:15:54 felirx: of course, it may be that this doesn't actually work out well -- I know little about user interfaces :) 11:16:31 it's all 2d math in a very simple sense this time 11:16:46 coordinates being something like x = 1...80, y = 1...24 11:16:58 if you wanted, you could even precompute the two orderings 11:17:03 they do id completely in 0.5 11:17:12 but that's probably an unnecessary optimization 11:17:39 greensnark: cheap :P 11:17:50 syllogism: What to do, my MR is the pits :P 11:17:56 Anyway, I didn't get xp for him :P 11:18:05 syllogism: no, am not sure :) 11:18:18 syllogism: but I really don't like seeing "Dam+4" upon wearing something. 11:18:34 what about weapons 11:18:43 syllogism: oh, "old" here means 0.2 or so. 11:19:51 identifying equipment is just tedious anyway, though 11:20:00 greensnark: I just played a DGFi and it felt okay... will try some more. 11:20:09 I can see leaving scrolls/potions unidentified 11:20:12 stabwound: what do you mean? 11:20:26 You dislike the whole id minigame? 11:20:30 right 11:20:57 it's okay on potions/wands/scrolls 11:20:57 I believe that knowing all rings etc. right away would lose a lot. 11:21:19 well, rings as well 11:21:22 but not armour/weapons 11:21:36 stabwound: are you referring to pluses or egos or both? 11:21:38 99% of randart equpiment you drop anyway 11:21:52 both :P 11:22:01 I believe we should have a movement where randarts are rarer, but better. 11:22:06 yes 11:22:13 that would be good 11:22:16 Note that weapon randarts are strictly better now -- they always carry an ego. 11:22:39 ah 11:22:58 I haven't played much of 0.6 but in the past I barely ever used randart weapons 11:23:00 stabwound: yes, b/c ego-less randarts means no use unless by casters 11:23:02 don't want taht 11:23:43 This is a very personal thing, but I find randart guessing to be fun. I.e. you get a randart ring, apply it, know two properties and have to use ?id or other means to learn more about it. 11:24:04 i suppose you can make randart body armor better but other than that there's not much room to improve 11:24:23 syllogism: but there are so many strictly bad randarts 11:24:44 depends on how rare we are talking about here 11:24:48 One idea would be that randarts get improvements if they have negative traits. 11:24:50 should a randart always have at least 2 bonuses? 11:24:57 felirx: yes, I think so. 11:25:05 felirx: isn't that in? 11:25:12 since in one game, I found randart boots with just rPois 11:25:22 ah, for boots that's okay :) 11:25:35 we wouldn't want a randart ring with just rPois 11:25:37 jewelry get the base item + soemthing else 11:27:19 jewelry randarts are often pretty good 11:27:48 in the past I noticed that if I got a weapon/armour with good stuff on it, it would often be horribly enchanted, though 11:27:52 or even negatively enchanted 11:28:03 I don't know if that's an actual mechanic or not 11:28:10 Amulet of Faith essentially gives you unlimited greater demons with Makhleb :P 11:28:13 besides you can do fine without randarts 11:28:16 insulation aside 11:28:51 yes, but it's boring if they're there and you never use them 11:29:29 I loved one of the swords I found 11:29:34 it had Stealth++ 11:29:40 and then talked to me by random 11:29:54 really 11:30:26 dpeg: the issue with "monsters can only use the extra energy to move" is that it makes pillar dancing completely safe again 11:30:46 and the game overall easier 11:31:06 easier than pre-randomization state 11:31:07 doy: sigh 11:31:20 Do we need to revert the whole thing? 11:31:33 I'm not exaggerating when I say it's ruined the game for me 11:31:35 well, that also makes pillar dancing completely safe again 11:31:37 d: 11:31:42 stabwound: I don't think there is such a mechanic. At least, it wouldn't be a good one. 11:33:03 what exactly is the problem with pillar dancing, anyway? 11:33:12 it's not even a 100% safe tactic 11:33:22 it's boring, sure 11:34:05 the ring of Temptation (right hand) {cTele AC+3 Str+3 Dam+2} more rings like this! 11:35:01 did that hydra get a double turn or was it in water 11:35:21 it got a move+attack, no water 11:35:24 syllogism: found it : the +0,+8 falchion "Piutz" {slay orc, Noisy +Inv rC++ rN+ Stlth+} 11:35:58 for hydras, they could get a fractional attack cost for each head 11:35:59 felirx: oh, I just didn't know noisy weapons actually talk 11:36:05 -!- murphy_slaw has joined ##crawl-dev 11:36:34 stabwound: we want to get rid of boring stuff. Pillar dancing and victory dancing are boring. 11:36:58 okay, yeah 11:37:10 I don't really have an opinion about the randomization but it doesn't get rid of pillar dancing 11:37:14 it all started with dancing weapons nerf :P 11:37:21 syllogism: Truth. 11:37:50 it does usually cut it short in my experience 11:38:11 mine too 11:38:22 also, it gets rid of kiting 11:38:26 which is also important 11:38:29 by: Well, at least for me, I still usually just pillar danced when I would've before, occasionally being able to run to stairs and rest it out off level instead. 11:38:32 With a sudden GSC to the head 11:38:49 -!- DrPraetor has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 11:39:12 by: I will turn the Wp colours idea into an FR? 11:39:13 I view pillar dancing as the natural result of having infinite stamina for all actors 11:39:20 yes, please 11:39:22 Is stair scumming something the debs want to discourage? 11:39:42 i don't mind stair scumming as much 11:39:44 not that I have any fleshed out ideas for a stamina system 11:39:49 doy: what is kiting? 11:39:55 we already let monsters get free hits and such 11:39:56 doy: luring monsters somewhere? 11:40:21 dpeg: running away from slower monsters, except using the free turns you get to hit them 11:40:40 Kiting is still completely doable though 11:40:46 I, uh, do it still :P 11:40:46 with fixed speeds, you always know exactly when the free turns will be 11:40:53 Stair scumming is at least someone less bad simply because it is less tedious and takes less time than pillar dancing. The idea (at least, part of the idea) is to further reduce thoughtless stuff the player does. 11:40:55 Or shooting missiles/spells when you get a one square lead 11:41:28 greensnark: but you can get hit doing it now 11:41:30 potentially 11:41:38 doy: thanks for explanation 11:41:45 yes, slow monsters are problematic 11:42:03 greensnark: Ditto. I was still able to kite nearly as well as I could previously; hell, I didn't usually get an exact count on it previously since getting hit once in such situations was almost never relevant 11:42:05 Stamina would be interesting, but it would completely change the game. 11:42:26 I watched a video of demons souls a couple weeks ago 11:42:32 I found it mostly boring but noticed one part 11:42:49 the player would get reduced stamina when blocking an attack, more stamina reduced for harder attacks etc 11:43:07 when stamina is reduced to 0, the player reels back 11:43:16 loses a turn effectively 11:43:33 thought it was an interesting concept 11:43:50 expected to prove their moral superiority by fighting honourably and 11:43:50 sacrificing evil items. 11:43:59 it says sacrificing evil items 11:44:59 greensnark: it may happen that "Faith needs some nerf, right? 11:45:01 I wanted to pass an idea by folks here 11:45:15 and I can't attack monsters if they have any kind of halo right? 11:45:23 in most games there is a progression towards bigger and bigger weapons for meleers 11:45:37 whips ditched for maces ditched for flails ditched for great maces etc 11:46:08 I was thinking that perhaps the progression should be focused on the enchantments/abilities of weapons, rather than base type 11:46:23 with each weapon being good to use for its own particular qualities 11:46:29 -!- murphy_slaw has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 11:47:27 man it is so tempting to kill fleeing monsters 11:47:50 -!- murphy_slaw has joined ##crawl-dev 11:47:54 myu: Changing the weapon system would be good, but also quite difficult. I think I *probably* could rebalance weapons if I put enough focus into it, but it's a huge mess and not easily changed. 11:48:13 I realise it's a huge change yeh 11:48:38 @??hydra 11:48:38 hydra (09D) | Speed: 10 (swim: 60%) | HD: 13 | Health: 39-104 | AC/EV: 0/5 | Damage: 18 per head | Flags: amphibious | Res: 06magic(52), 03poison | Chunks: 09poisonous | XP: 1212. 11:48:49 currently there's no point picking a lighter weapon (unless stabbing w/short blades) due to it not being able to get past armour 11:48:51 can I kill a hydra while it flees? 11:48:53 not sure how I'd tackle that 11:49:00 myuzinn: not true 11:49:17 play with a dagger of speed and might from okawaru and you'll see how awesome that combo is 11:49:46 * casmith789 wants a tso expert :( 11:49:49 I meant capable on their own 11:49:52 crawl combat system feels in many ways like a response to the angband system 11:50:03 One of the long-term plans is to differentiate weapons better. This will include making to-hit meaningful, and hence give weapons other than the largest a niche. 11:50:09 that favors fighters wielding daggers and mages wielding heaviest weapon they find 11:50:11 Fast weapons of distortion/elec can be worthwhile even if they're light. 11:50:13 jarpiain: Could you elaborate? 11:51:00 dpeg: there is one niche of one handed weapons 11:51:01 angband fighters get 4 attacks/round at start with a dagger (4x(1d4 + 9) after enchanting it), only 1 attack with their 2d5 longsword 11:51:08 and sorry guys I forgot this wasn't ##crawl 11:51:11 -!- casmith789 has left ##crawl-dev 11:51:20 hmm I haven't played Incursion in ages, but you can pick almost any base type weapon there at start 11:51:33 if you picked appropriate feats you could get value out of most of them 11:51:44 So my sense that accuracy bonus is not worth considering is ... accurate? 11:51:50 not sure how I'd take that over to crawl though 11:51:59 the feat stuff in incursion is a horrible mess 11:52:16 I have really not ever worried about accuracy bonus on weapons except at the beginning of a game 11:53:26 Because skill dwarfs weopon props, even if heavily enchanted for accuracy 11:54:58 Same logic is why corona/sure blade are only useful for spell training once you've got any skill at all. 11:55:08 murphy_slaw: yes, accuracy matters very little, only in special situations: early on (low skill), monsters with high EV (eg wisps) 11:55:26 oh yes 11:55:44 I had a mibe recently get almost demolished by sonja 11:55:54 despite cutting through the dungeon prior to her with ease 11:55:58 just couldn't hit her 11:56:18 this is a good thing :) 11:56:27 Eventually I'd rather burn enchant I than remove curse on a cursed weao 11:56:31 hurray at effective uniques 11:56:41 ...pon 11:56:55 paladin has (relatively) much better start in 0.6 because of the halo acc bonus 11:57:21 jarpiain: yes 11:57:45 ...plus halo doesn't help monsters anymore 11:58:34 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 12:01:02 Bad idea: player zombie race, like ghoul vy 12:01:21 But rots int instead of health 12:01:47 do they need brains? 12:02:02 If int hits zero, you don't die, but you can't use stairs. XD 12:03:34 player zombie race that converts _everything_ to your ally after you kill them 12:03:46 unless undead 12:05:28 infeasible idea: parasite race; jumps from organism to organism, mind controls them, hd restricted based on xl 12:06:37 how do people feel about dex affecting speed? 12:07:11 as in, rather than having an individually set value for speed, have it as a result of low/high dex values 12:07:23 could be extended to monsters in far flung future 12:07:33 Movement, attack, or both? 12:07:48 not sure 12:08:00 movement for sure, haven't thought about attack much 12:08:06 would provide an interesting mechanic though 12:08:30 slow fighters that bash things real hard, vs nimble fighters who stab things many times 12:08:41 -!- murphy_slaw_ has joined ##crawl-dev 12:08:46 Dex is already good, that might make it too good 12:09:19 eeeh 12:09:47 also regarding weapon types 12:10:13 armour penetration values could help that along 12:10:56 I did an FR ages ago on it 12:11:41 small piercing weapons would bypass armour to some extent etc 12:12:10 -!- murphy_slaw has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 12:12:10 -!- murphy_slaw_ is now known as murphy_slaw 12:14:10 myuzinn: there are some ideas on a recent wiki (about stats), have a look there. 12:14:21 ok 12:15:37 Time for a shoals splat 12:16:02 part of the reason for the dex thing is 12:16:29 it irks me when games treat player and monsters by different rules 12:16:46 by having speed dependent on dex 12:17:00 one could theoretically start moving toward having monsters with str/int/dex values etc 12:17:14 would streamline things 12:18:02 You cannot teleport away from the mermaid! 12:19:11 joosa: :) 12:24:13 -!- ortoslon has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:25:01 int governing MR would be pretty neat as well for streamlining 12:25:44 blown up themselves 12:25:50 !lg joosa x=dam 12:25:52 320. [dam=103] joosa the Destroyer (L16 KeVM), worshipper of Sif Muna, blown up themselves on Shoals:3 on 2010-03-29, with 100589 points after 49014 turns and 14:12:39. 12:25:58 hah 12:26:47 how 12:26:50 Should've blinked as soon as I saw the orb 12:26:53 oh 12:27:00 it was your own orb? 12:27:06 no, Boris' 12:27:20 the message needs some work then 12:27:21 myuzinn: comment on the stats page 12:27:25 But I was standing on the upstairs, so I thought... 12:27:30 yeah, I guess 12:27:47 Should be "blown up by Boris" :) 12:31:43 -!- murphy_slaw_ has joined ##crawl-dev 12:32:29 Your enormous slime creature hits the skeletal dragon! The skeletal dragon is destroyed! 12:32:36 Makhleb <3 12:33:46 greensnark: yes on "Faith can be overpowered? 12:33:52 Makhleb gifts slime creatures? 12:34:02 murphy_slaw_: enormous ones! 12:34:11 Huh, thought he just gave demons. 12:34:23 he does 12:34:30 figured that'd be more a jiyva thing 12:35:42 -!- murphy_slaw_ has quit [Client Quit] 12:35:49 dpeg: Yes, Faith makes some of the gods really good 12:36:17 !tv joosa Shoals 12:36:18 4. joosa, XL16 KeVM, T:49014 requested for FooTV. 12:36:22 -!- murphy_slaw_ has joined ##crawl-dev 12:37:51 joosa: I see Ilsuiw gave you an early appointment on Shoals:3 12:39:14 yeah 12:41:27 Oh wow, one hit Boris kill 12:41:45 103 dam 12:42:26 IOOD? 12:42:49 Yes 12:43:06 unavoidable? 12:43:17 I guess he could have blinked 12:43:22 Not really, I should have blinked away instantly 12:43:32 !tv joosa Shoals -tv:<0.5 12:43:32 4. joosa, XL16 KeVM, T:49014 requested for FooTV. 12:43:45 well he could have done the same with bolt of iron 12:43:59 That's somewhat easier to dodge though :) 12:44:05 is it 12:44:27 Well, depends on range 12:44:35 did it hit him instantl 12:44:36 y 12:44:36 Does monster IOOD also have less power at short range? 12:44:39 yes 12:44:43 Ah 12:44:47 I think he had one turn to react 12:44:56 Yes, one turn exactly 12:45:17 And I chose the stairs :P 12:48:46 hm 12:53:09 don't show altars in overview for demigods? 12:54:17 by: I thought about that... probably a good idea. 12:55:51 -!- Alweth has joined ##crawl-dev 12:56:02 Hi, guys. 12:56:15 Congratulations on 0.6 12:58:37 :o 12:58:41 sup dpeg 12:58:43 you still there? 12:59:38 Alweth: thanks! 13:00:02 03by * r4ad1ce14882d 10/crawl-ref/source/dgn-overview.cc: Don't show altars in overview for demigods. 13:01:21 Use colours better for Wp and Qv lines (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1201) by dpeg 13:01:21 Vandal: yes 13:01:37 Vandal: if you write more monster descriptions, that'd be cool :) 13:01:45 oh ok 13:02:00 yeah.. I remember now, I wanted to beat the game so I could do a better job, then I forgot about writing more >_> 13:02:05 At least I beat the game~ 13:02:18 Today was my first day back in university 13:02:22 hooray 13:02:28 (no really I like going to uni) 13:02:30 Vandal: very nice! 13:02:40 wow...just tossed 16 orcish darts of flame and mulched every one the first time I tossed em. 13:02:55 I've been sucked into Monster Hunter though ... I am weak 13:03:00 hear of that dpeg? 13:03:17 Monster Hunter? 13:03:19 yeah 13:03:25 What is that? 13:03:27 such a simple concept, but such a great game 13:04:09 It is an action game based on killing giant monsters / animals, carving them up, and making armour / weapons out of their parts so that you can fight even bigger monsters 13:04:16 It is Crawl-level difficult 13:04:31 Real time, but the monsters are relentless and can kill you in seconds if you don't know what you're doing 13:04:44 like, lose half your hp in one attack 13:04:48 that level difficult 13:05:10 added to this, there are 11 distinct weapon types with sub-specialties inside some of them 13:05:40 like, not every bowgun can use every ammo type, or some can hold more ammo, or some reload faster than others, or have less recoil when firing 13:06:04 the depth and complexity is Crawl-like 13:06:10 @_@ 13:07:20 It has the Crawl "try try again until you learn the right strategies and eventually win" mentality combined with WoW's endless equipment improving addiction 13:07:24 Vandal, what systems is it on? 13:07:40 PSP, soon to be Wii (is in Japan), X-Box in Japan only 13:07:57 Monster Hunter Freedom Unite is basically the one you want if you were interested 13:08:01 I think it can be emulated also 13:08:14 Monster Hunter Tri will be out on Wii this summer in English 13:09:03 Anyways yeah. This game was made for people like us :P 13:09:26 I've spent almost 100 hours on it in the last 2 weeks and I'm still just scratching the surface 13:09:34 There are still lots of monsters I've never even seen 13:12:02 -!- myuzinn has quit [] 13:15:42 -!- murphy_slaw_ has quit [Quit: murphy_slaw_] 13:16:15 replied to the c-r-d mail by Abraham Lewis 13:16:32 -!- murphy_slaw_ has joined ##crawl-dev 13:17:40 Vandal: sounds good. If it inspires you to ideas for Crawl, just add them the tracker :) (I am serious: we need better monsters, and there are cool ideas everywhere, we just have to look for them.) 13:17:57 Monster design in this game is astounding 13:17:59 I am afraid my reply will trigger a billion other emails. 13:18:07 but 13:18:09 Vandal: design and/or balance? 13:18:13 both 13:18:17 a bit too complex to translate into Crawl 13:18:28 like there are some monsters you can chop the tails off of, or break their claws / shells 13:18:29 Vandal: tell us about some cool monsters from that game, please. 13:18:49 Ok, well the first and most basic "real" monster you ever fight 13:19:12 It is a bipedal bird with a large beak designed for pecking 13:19:26 What can it do? 13:19:27 It can fly, and can initiate fights by swooping at you for dmg and knockdown 13:19:36 It can also fire short range fireballs 13:19:37 Can you dodge? 13:19:39 yes 13:19:46 you can dodge almost every attack in Monster Hunter 13:19:55 you have to study the monsters htough 13:20:04 you have to know what they're about to do before they do it 13:20:13 Ah, like in wrestling or shooting games... you have to learn their moves. 13:20:17 yes 13:20:24 Sounds cool. 13:20:26 it can also charge at you while doing multiple fast pecks at the ground 13:20:36 or a straight up body slam / charge 13:21:02 you can break its "ears" by attacking them, which is easier with some weapon types than others 13:21:04 by: Does my Wp/Qv proposal make sense? 13:21:13 you can knock it down by attacking the legs 13:21:32 you can semi-stun it by throwing a sonic bomb, but this also puts it into "rage" mode 13:21:40 Vandal: do players carry a bunch of weapons and switch to the most feasible one (depending on the monster)? I.e. the golf club approach? 13:21:44 taking damage also puts it into rage mode 13:21:57 dpeg, sort of 13:22:03 dpeg, I think your email was well presented, I didn't know streaks that high were attainable 13:22:04 you go on missions with 1 target per mission 13:22:15 Cryp71c: We were surprised, too. 13:22:25 Vandal: ah, you have to find them first. 13:22:37 Cryp71c: thanks. The last line might be controversial :) 13:22:38 sometimes, there are also training modes that pit you in an arena 13:22:39 dpeg: yes 13:22:44 by: thanks 13:22:46 so you can just practice without having to search 13:22:59 also, monsters will sometimes flee the area 13:23:04 even before they're almost dead 13:23:07 but especially when they're dying 13:23:10 by: If you think it's okay, and there's no opposition, this could go right into 0.7, imo. 13:23:13 Given my experience, I would've sided with Abraham about chance having far too strong a hand in any given game, but those streaks suggest otherwise. 13:23:25 Cryp71c: there's also winrates... 13:23:45 Vandal: I assume there's practice mode for every monster you've seen for reals already? 13:23:56 so far, but not for every variant 13:24:07 like, this fire breathing (very fast) bird monster 13:24:17 it has at least 1 variant, I think 2 13:24:18 Vandal: but you can still see the basic patterns of bird monsters. 13:24:25 variants are always good 13:24:26 yes, but things change 13:24:35 Awesome Temple-entrance vault! U-shaped with electric eels behind translucent stone. 13:24:37 like the black yuan kut-ku (name of altnernate bird) 13:24:49 it spits poison instead of fire and takes 0 dmg from Thunder element 13:24:56 (oh and elemental attacks play a large part in the game) 13:25:06 the fire based one does not take a lot of dmg from Fire, for example 13:25:14 I rarely play new games... but I did play Amorphous once. Which has some parallels with what you describe and inspired me to the new slime creatures. Therefore, if Monster Hunter inspires you to something (wild is good!), tell us :) 13:25:39 Well it is a lot more focused on 1v1 fights that last 5-10 minutes than Crawl :) 13:25:49 Vandal: that does not matter. 13:26:25 dpeg: I like the last line :) 13:26:25 The monster designs themselves can be translated into Crawl monsters, sure, especially for Lair and some good Wyvern / Dragon types 13:26:25 Amorphous is an action flash game, where you're drowned in oozes. Nothing to do with Crawl, and still a good source of inspiration. 13:26:31 by: thanks again. 13:26:50 the idea is that the monsters are part of the natural ecology of the game world 13:27:00 they do things like run away from you and drink water at a lake to heal 13:27:06 Vandal: we lack monsters with outstanding behaviour. Too many are just melee, sometimes with a ranged attack. They could be much more unique. 13:27:12 they could 13:27:28 At the same time, that isn't why people play Roguelikes 13:27:42 We're slowly getting there... 1 or 2 monsters per major version ==> cool zoo by 2200. 13:27:47 :) 13:28:27 dpeg, you guys talking about this gave me an idea for a high-level translocation spell, based on the game Portal, ever played it? 13:28:56 Vandal: boring monsters are still boring, though. It is true that focus in Crawl is on tactical challenge (which generally, but not always, means many opponents). But still, moth of wrath, the upcoming silent spectre -- these are unique and interesting. 13:29:14 yeah 13:29:18 Cryp71c: I don't play much, you've got to tell us. 13:29:24 the main thing is 13:29:33 a lot of monsters can die to the same tactic 13:29:40 ie: hit them with a sword until they stop moving 13:29:44 Vandal: in MH or Crawl? 13:29:51 Crawl .. definitely Crawl 13:30:06 In MH you should expect to die .. multiple times .. to every new monster archtype 13:30:14 even if you're at the end of the game and know how to play 13:30:20 Vandal: it is obvious that if you focus on 1-on-1 fights, each monster needs much more personality. 13:30:26 Yse 13:30:28 yes 13:30:28 Well, Portal is set in a lab where the player is being used as a test-subject for a new weapon. THe gun shoots 2 different portals, making a dimensional link between the two (walk through one, pop out the other, etc.). The game itself is a puzzle-based game, where you have to use the portals to escape the lab 13:30:49 Remember my suggestion for Giant Slayer? 13:31:05 But the ability would operate just like the portal gun would, place each portal within LOS and anything which enters either portal has a chance of coming out of the other one. 13:31:06 Adding dungeon noise mechanics and making monster size more important could go a long way to deepening the combat 13:31:08 Vandal: the equivalent to your example is that even if you can dispatch an orb of fire, or an ancient lich, or a berserk orb guardian, you may not win against them combined. 13:31:17 right 13:31:27 but 13:31:31 dpeg I do notice when I won 13:31:45 once you reach a certain amount of power, it doesn't matter if you're fighting 1 monster or 10 13:31:46 you'll win 13:31:46 up, left, right and down arrow keys work now on the regular cases 13:31:52 Vandal: no, not true 13:31:54 oO 13:31:58 play a ziggurat some time :) 13:32:04 or pan 13:32:06 I tanked a room full of literally 10+ dragonkins 13:32:10 felirx: yayissimo! 13:32:12 until they died to my sling 13:32:15 I almost ran out of ammo 13:32:18 and I used Slouch 13:32:23 but I stood my ground and killed them all 13:32:28 I think there were closer to 15 13:32:40 draconids ? whatever 13:32:47 that was also when ev was still broken 13:32:52 oh you fixed it already? 13:32:53 Vandal: one battle where you killed them all does not prove that you would have killed everything. 13:33:11 Cryp71c: how would it work in Crawl? 13:33:18 it was pretty epic dpeg :) I wasn't hallway fighting or anything, just standing on a staircase I had walked down blwoing up the whole room 13:33:43 (also this is part of why I was saying Slouch was *perhaps* too good) 13:34:10 I haven't been following Crawl heavily since I beat it.. you guys fixed EV already? 13:34:21 dpeg, hrm, well...idk. It would be awefully similar to blink, or cBlink, except that monsters could also use the portal...I suppose similar effects could just be added in with the translocation-cloud changes that are planned. 13:34:43 Anywyas dpeg you could do stuff with nets and monster size 13:34:43 Vandal: yes, ev was fixed, its not as ridiclous now 13:34:53 Along with interesting noise mechanics 13:34:57 Vandal: yes, the Dex effect on EV is capped now, thus preventing the hilarous EV values. 13:35:02 :) 13:35:08 it's not capped, it's stepped down 13:35:22 by: yes, sorry for wrong terminology. 13:35:33 It used to be capped, but is not anymore. 13:36:19 Vandal: if you come up with cool ideas for monsters (need not be new monsters -- new ideas for old monsters are also good) instead of writing monster descriptions, that's absolutely fine with me :) 13:36:34 sounds good 13:36:38 that is something I could be good at 13:36:49 but, don't forget, I'm not aware of the full capabilities of Crawl 13:36:58 -!- blabber has joined ##crawl-dev 13:36:59 like how deep they could get 13:37:29 I think the most complicated monster interaction I know of is due's Duwaine and Duvessa 13:37:44 hahaha. I just noticed he self inserted his name in both 13:39:28 eww conflict 13:39:34 someone had fiddled with newgame.cc! 13:39:52 what a douche 13:40:49 felirx: add an insulting comment! 13:42:06 dpeg how possible would it be to procedurally generate monsters into mini-ecologies within levels? 13:42:28 I love how the Species and Background menus work with mouse and arrows 13:42:33 and then spellbook select does not :D 13:42:37 (this could of course apply to unnatural things like undead too, just, sets of monsters designed to create specific challenges by having them grouped near each other) 13:43:04 I'm thinking Lair would be the best test-bed for this of course 13:43:40 Say some monsters generate specifically when there are lakes, and instead of running in random directions, run for water and try to hide because they're amphibious 13:44:00 (when near dead) 13:44:04 Vandal, I think a lot of that could be done with vaults. 13:44:21 felirx: one piece of work always already points at the next one :) 13:44:35 and yeah Alweth it is a lot like vaults 13:44:37 -!- blabber has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:44:39 but I wanted it to feel more random 13:44:47 not a pre-defined amount of each monster 13:44:50 Vandal: all of this can be done, although we generally try to not use realism too much (which includes a lot the ecology stuff) 13:45:00 I have a feeling I'll need to add paging support to PrecisionMenu for the starting screen 13:45:03 Vandal: but sure, can be done 13:45:11 but do you think it would make the game better? 13:45:13 Vandal, you can randomize it with vaults. 13:45:20 oh, cool Alweth 13:45:22 or somehow couple the current menu that picks your savegame with something else 13:46:21 would it create a lot of overhead having monsters get unique behaviour patterns? 13:46:27 03j-p-e-g * r992abe43c404 10/crawl-ref/source/ (24 files in 4 dirs): Add LoginError's zombie tiles, plus code to use them. 13:46:33 Vandal: no, that is something we want for monsters 13:46:43 I see 13:46:55 Vandal: Monsters can easily be spawned in groups (e.g. yaks always come in packs unless OOD), but as said above vaults would mostly be best for what you describe. 13:47:03 I would suggest you start with something you've already got in the game 13:47:05 Vandal: as Jeff from POWDER put it: "Don't add new monsters/items/etc. if they don't require new code". 13:47:13 heh 13:47:26 Size is a VERY important factor in Monster Hunter and it could be more important here 13:47:40 how's the current AI in crawl btw 13:47:46 a decision tree thingy or a random mishmash? 13:48:02 Size will probably gradually be used more. It was worthless prior to 0.6 because there was no consistency between mob sizes at all. 13:48:05 I mean basically the only difference between fighting a rat and fighting a skeletal warrior in Crawl is that the SW does more damage and takes less / needs more to be destroyed 13:48:26 or a stone giant for that matter 13:48:35 (once yo'ure next to it) 13:48:41 tiny poisonouse spiders were the same size as a centaur for example :P 13:48:59 setting parameters is tedious but easy work 13:49:05 it could have been done at any time 13:49:42 dpeg I would suggest meshing size with weapon types 13:49:52 instead of just saying "this weapon does more damage" 13:50:03 "this weapon does more damage to large monsters, but misses small ones more" 13:50:11 etc... 13:50:36 in Monster Hunter even your movement speed is tied to the weapon you picked 13:51:00 The huge weapons with high damage per hit (and over time) force you to run at half speed while drawn 13:51:19 I'm not suggesting that should be done in Crawl, but it did open my eyes to more properties of weapons we could think about 13:51:26 That seems like a bad way to go with weapons to me - specific weapons specifically being worse or better based on size is awkward and overly complicated for the player, I think. There is some room to work with interaction there, but probably not as you describe. 13:51:35 Well, one thing we cannot change is that one monster per glyph trope. 13:51:38 "Dragon" name and color could be more appropriate (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1202) by OG17 13:51:49 But size can and should play a stronger rule, sure. 13:52:13 The Abraham mails go out of hand, I'll rather give Mu commit rights. 13:52:19 like, make nets function to almost always work against humanoid sized opponents 13:52:21 -!- ais523 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:52:34 stuff like that 13:52:45 but never on a Stone Giant etc.., it would only cover its foot 13:52:52 I remember someone bringing up the idea of Yaks being able to trample tiny-sized monsters if they got in their way (e.g. when fleeing), stuff like that is fun :) (but may be bad because people would then be like 'but why can't dragons crush rats too, etc. :P) 13:53:08 well yeah Twinge, something like that should be consistent 13:54:09 For herds, it would help more if they behaved more herd-like 13:54:27 yeah it is pretty easy to pick off yaks one at a time 13:54:30 the others are oblivious 13:54:37 They stay together in general, stampede (they get enraged together) etc. 13:55:10 Maybe the trample effect would only work with 3+ of them together rushing the player or something, that oculd work. Shrug. Lots of options. 13:55:39 yes, lots of options 13:55:39 Framework is in place, at any rate, since the sizes and weights are generally good now. (Could perhaps use some minor tweaking, but should be close) 13:56:22 In general, there's a plethora of choices. Given that herd monsters (sheep, yaks etc.) are in sad state, most of these choices will improve matters. 13:56:39 !seen Mu 13:56:39 I last saw Mu at Wed Nov 18 00:02:18 2009 UTC (18w 5d 18h 54m 21s ago) joining the channel. 13:56:50 Oh, Vandal - you might want to look at the trunk sizes for monsters when making description changes too. Often not that relevant, but is at times. Also, there's at least some monsters that don't have descriptions at all, so don't only look at the description file. 13:58:54 I added a basic one for Trapdoor Spider IIRC, but I remember seeing at least 1 other mob without one (a demon of some flavor I believe) 13:59:09 Wouldn't be surprised if there were half a dozen or more missing 13:59:39 New monsters sometimes have nodescription at all. 14:01:08 it seems like my melee performance has gone down significantly since trading leather armour for ring mail 14:01:27 is that possible, or am I imagining it? 14:01:54 by: that is possible 14:01:58 what is your Armour skill? 14:02:13 Armor does hamper combat. I think moreso since the AC nerf, but I don't recall the specifics 14:03:24 armour skill 3 14:03:43 had two when I switched 14:03:49 by: my last DGFi died from using plate too early. 14:04:18 ??aevp 14:04:18 aevp[1/1]: Adjusted body armour evasion penalty. Affects spell success, melee accuracy and {attack speed}. Its value is [base_penalty + max(0, 3*base_penalty - str)] * [45 - armour_skill]/45. 14:04:36 base_penalty would be 2 here? 14:04:40 yes 14:04:53 so your AEVP would be 2 14:04:59 yes; strong enough 14:05:22 I am not sure if AEVP is used differently than before, though. 14:07:59 -!- murphy_slaw__ has joined ##crawl-dev 14:08:33 -!- murphy_slaw__ has quit [Client Quit] 14:09:06 ?? attack speed[6] 14:09:06 attack speed[6/6]: In 0.6 armour gives two different speed penalties. Weapon base delay is capped by 1d10 + 1d{aevp}. Final delay before applying Haste is capped by the minimum of two 1d{aevp} rolls (1d{aevp} + 1d{asp} for 1.5-handed with shield). 14:09:08 -!- murphy_slaw_ has quit [Quit: murphy_slaw_] 14:09:21 dpeg, so how comes along this stealth god I hear of? 14:10:03 patch uploaded 14:10:52 Cryp71c: not at all :) 14:10:56 lol 14:11:05 felirx: noted! 14:11:16 by: would you have (another) look and push it? 14:11:22 -!- murphy_slaw has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:11:55 Cryp71c: first, there are several ideas of what a stealth god could be. Then, nobody is actively coding it. Finally, for my own idea (thief god) the piety-for-exploration is needed before. 14:14:02 -!- TGWi has joined ##crawl-dev 14:14:25 is develz doing alright? 14:19:05 the answer is yes 14:19:10 thanks -dev 14:19:12 dpeg: starting menu or god/book/weapon choice screen first? 14:20:00 TGWi: sorry 14:20:09 felirx: starting menu 14:20:27 felirx: just the last patch, or does it build on one of the others? 14:20:46 just the last patch 14:21:01 dpeg: sorry? 14:21:14 I chose to use AABB intersection, it was the easiest and cleanest to implement :) 14:21:21 I think it was just a short bout of comcasticism 14:21:36 TGWi: nobody replied 14:21:42 oh, you're fine 14:26:05 03dpeg * r48ea74461cbc 10/crawl-ref/CREDITS.txt: Update CREDITS. 14:28:07 03kilobyte * refcc80f48d63 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/descript/items.txt: State that sling bullets are only "usually" made of lead. 14:29:51 ??mummy 14:29:52 mummy[1/4]: When destroyed, all mummies cast a death curse. For normal mummies (i.e. 'a mummy'), this could curse items or cause potions to decay. For other mummies (e.g. 'an ancient technicolor mummy'), it will be a random {necromancy miscast} effect. Mummies are vulnerable to fire damage. 14:29:55 ??mummy[2] 14:29:55 mummy[2/4]: Try a wand of enslavement or summons to handle the regular sort. It'll let you avoid the death curse. Alternatively, just drop all your potions, kill it, and then remove the curse that got placed on your [whatever]. 14:29:58 ??mu 14:29:58 mummy[3/4]: Mummy PCs do not need to eat food to survive. They also resist necromantic and cold attacks,are immune to poison, but vulnerable to fire. Also, they get permanent necro magic enhancers at xl13 and 26. Lastly, they cannot drink potions, change form or go berserk. According to syrion, PC mummies use bladders for blowing. 14:30:07 my bad 14:31:51 0100qy Gives a (Key replay ran out of keys) (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1203) by Cryptic 14:38:01 I think the mummy necro enhancers should be at 9 and 27 14:38:34 Why? 14:38:44 3*3 and 3^3 14:38:54 it's prettier 14:39:42 number fetichism shouldn't dominate 14:39:52 -!- DrPraetor has joined ##crawl-dev 14:40:34 that's your opinion 14:40:45 Indeed. 14:40:48 03felirx * r4fd70dd71d7e 10/crawl-ref/source/ (8 files): Adds support for mouse and arrow operable menus 14:44:26 felirx, by: thank you! 14:54:46 -!- DrPraetor has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:57:06 felirx: _The tentacle is severely wounded. The kraken's tentacles slip beneath the water. 14:57:09 _You slash DEAD MONSTER! The kraken turns to fight! 14:57:12 -felirx 14:57:23 mm? 14:57:41 felirx: not intended for you 14:57:44 ;D 14:58:54 by: the perils of multi-tile monsters... 14:59:10 who wrote the "like the carrion they are" message? 14:59:17 it's awesome and they need to be lauded 14:59:42 TGWi: ? 15:00:12 the message kraken tentacles make when the body dies 15:00:44 nice 15:02:01 kraken: You slash DEAD MONSTER! (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1204) by rob 15:09:21 Abraham mails :( 15:10:15 -!- syllogism has quit [] 15:11:04 My last reply will undoubtedly trigger more replies. Gah, I knew it. 15:12:04 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: runaway] 15:15:22 -!- Twinge has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:18:11 -!- Spads has joined ##crawl-dev 15:22:35 -!- timecircuits has joined ##crawl-dev 15:22:39 -!- timecircuits has left ##crawl-dev 15:40:44 -!- TGWi has left ##crawl-dev 15:44:03 should silence work through walls? 15:44:18 i just found a pan lord casting it, he can silence me without having LOS :( 15:44:36 ooh, pan lords with silence 15:44:37 awesome 15:44:54 yeah, and *they* can still cast having used it :P 15:45:06 heh 15:45:24 was a cool thing to run into, though 15:45:34 03by * rac43205a05ac 10/crawl-ref/source/ouch.cc: Cancel command repetition on death. 15:45:57 I think silence working through walls is by design; could still be changed of course 15:46:27 yeah, i guess you'd never notice it from player-cast silence 15:56:44 -!- purge has joined ##crawl-dev 16:04:49 -!- by has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:32:30 Not prompting for butchering weapon despite having one (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1205) by Lagus 16:44:57 dpeg ran off before I could give him moral support :( 16:54:57 yawn 16:55:30 moral support for? 16:57:11 due: seem ml 16:57:14 *see 16:57:22 33 players on CAO atm :O 16:57:23 Oh dear. 16:57:28 What happened? 16:57:36 My connection is shitty at the minute 16:57:43 It take sabout five minutes for my inbox to load. 16:58:00 "crawl's unbalanced because people win so rarely" 16:58:17 ... 16:58:22 -!- bmh has joined ##crawl-dev 16:58:24 I love the mailing list :) 16:58:27 hi 16:58:28 What! Winning should be a big accomplishment not a given 16:58:45 I've never won. I'm too careless. 16:59:26 bmh: I was thinking the same about myself playing on CDO, but i discovered that its because i refused to play any slower even when i am lagged on CDO 16:59:35 now that i am on CAO with zero lag, i am doing much much better :) 16:59:52 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:00:36 Bike shed painting. That discussion will go nowhere. 17:00:54 due: The bike shed should be taupe! 17:01:40 losing 3~5 wizards duo te crazy immortal hobgoblins skews the stats nicely! 17:02:14 roguelikes are hard, only mutants win them. 17:02:29 i had my first win yesterday 17:02:37 now to 15-rune 17:02:54 I need to get better at not getting myself in over my head 17:05:09 I really like the overhauled demonspawn mutations 17:06:28 yeah they're great 17:06:43 much better than some random collection of horns and hooves 17:07:25 just needs more of them now 17:07:45 currently i seem to get cold resistance, regen and MR on many of my ds 17:07:52 same 17:07:52 but its in the early stages, so 17:07:57 I can't complain about regen 17:16:28 -!- Amonchakad has joined ##crawl-dev 17:17:06 Jiyva doesn't special case Demonspawns, does he? 17:17:39 -!- Twinge has joined ##crawl-dev 17:24:17 -!- pointless_ has joined ##crawl-dev 17:47:40 -!- bmh is now known as bmh_away 18:04:47 -!- bmh_away is now known as bmh 18:05:15 !lg * cv~~0.[67].* start>=20100201 ktyp=winning s=name 18:05:18 97 games for * (cv~~0.[67].* start>=20100201 ktyp=winning): 22x hyperbolic, 11x clouded, 6x MarvinPA, 5x 78291, 4x casmith789, 4x trucutru, 4x rob, 3x moq, 3x pointless, 3x trucutruu, 2x polystyrus, 2x syllogism, 2x Pseudonut, 2x Cryptic, 2x Kalma, 2x yobbo, 1x Julia, 1x pingpong, 1x Sticking, 1x Solvent, 1x Fa, 1x Mumu, 1x dpeg, 1x greensnark, 1x fiyawerx, 1x xyblor, 1x Grimm, 1x Vandal, 1x Napki... 18:05:40 !lg * cv~~0.[67].* start>=20100201 ktyp=winning name=hyperbolic 1 18:05:40 1. hyperbolic the Englaciator (L27 NaIE), worshipper of Cheibriados, escaped with the Orb and 4 runes on 2010-02-04, with 1959151 points after 100844 turns and 13:03:39. 18:05:46 !lg * cv~~0.[67].* start>=20100201 ktyp=winning name=hyperbolic 18:05:46 22. hyperbolic the Backstabber (L21 SpEn), worshipper of Okawaru, escaped with the Orb and 3 runes on 2010-03-27, with 1681296 points after 51565 turns and 3:29:44. 18:07:59 !lg * cv~~0.[67].* start>=20100201 18:08:04 22856. tehpwn the Skirmisher (L2 DrCK), worshipper of Makhleb, succumbed to poison on D:2 on 2010-03-29, with 73 points after 1025 turns and 0:01:27. 18:08:36 !lg * cv=0.5 ktyp=winning 18:08:36 831. nht the Grand Master (L27 KeMo), worshipper of Vehumet, escaped with the Orb and 3 runes on 2010-03-28, with 1426531 points after 98531 turns and 10:56:39. 18:08:40 !lg * cv=0.5 18:08:50 225899. firemonkey the Chopper (L3 MiBe), worshipper of Trog, slain by a snake on D:2 on 2010-03-29, with 123 points after 1603 turns and 0:07:38. 18:12:10 Is there a guideline for how much armor skill I should have before moving to a heavier armor? 18:29:16 -!- Amonchakad has quit [Quit: Page closed] 18:40:31 -!- Mu_ has quit [Quit: Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place.] 18:43:24 yes I want spoilers pls I didn't know it mattered 18:51:55 -!- st has quit [Disconnected by services] 18:53:32 -!- ogaz has joined ##crawl-dev 18:57:53 -!- bmh has quit [Quit: bmh] 19:01:24 -!- ogaz has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.2/20100316074819]] 19:13:44 -!- Twinge has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:14:59 -!- Twinge has joined ##crawl-dev 19:21:35 -!- Zannick has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:22:35 -!- Zannick has joined ##crawl-dev 19:50:28 -!- DrPraetor has joined ##crawl-dev 20:13:12 -!- murphy_slaw has joined ##crawl-dev 20:33:24 I see Abraham Lewis subscribes to the game-must-be-100%-winnable-LOL school of thought 20:33:36 greensnark: Apparently. 20:33:45 This is why I usually unsubscribe from c-r-d, it sorely tempts me to reply 20:33:53 HAH. 20:33:59 Heya, snark which is green. 20:34:04 Where is the Mu which is Neil? 20:34:16 i think jpeg and william seem to be doing a decent job of clarifying dpeg's arguments 20:34:37 Yes, that is why I haven't bothered to chime in. 20:34:38 greensnark: your pm says zzz! 20:34:38 :) 20:34:49 That was in the past :P 20:35:04 Hey, congrats on the win :) 20:35:09 !lg purge win 20:35:15 greensnark: i ended up with 15 armor and dodging even though i wore heavy armor the entire game :D 20:35:18 I'm clogging henzy-poo at the minute. 20:35:24 but thats partly thanks to a manual of dodging 20:35:37 4. purge the Axe Maniac (L27 HOFi), worshipper of Okawaru, escaped with the Orb and 3 runes on 2010-03-30, with 1264076 points after 132173 turns and 6:54:50. 20:35:51 Well, you can hardly expect to have no useful items at all in a game :P 20:36:12 !lg * src=cao cv=0.6.0 ktyp=winning 1 20:36:21 No games for * (src=cao cv=0.6.0 ktyp=winning). 20:36:31 !lg * src=cao v=0.6.0 ktyp=winning 1 20:36:32 1. hyperbolic the Backstabber (L21 SpEn), worshipper of Okawaru, escaped with the Orb and 3 runes on 2010-03-27, with 1681296 points after 51565 turns and 3:29:44. 20:36:36 !lg * src=cao v=0.6.0 ktyp=winning 20:36:36 4. purge the Axe Maniac (L27 HOFi), worshipper of Okawaru, escaped with the Orb and 3 runes on 2010-03-30, with 1264076 points after 132173 turns and 6:54:50. 20:36:41 Four wins, not bad. 20:36:44 !lg * src=cao v=0.6.0 ktyp=winning s=name 20:36:44 4 games for * (src=cao v=0.6.0 ktyp=winning): 1x purge, 1x 78291, 1x hyperbolic, 1x pointless 20:37:42 !lg * s=cv / win 20:37:47 hah funny i am joining the big leaguers as one of the first :D 20:37:50 2384/578548 games for *: 831/225900x 0.5 [0.37%], 705/144563x 0.4 [0.49%], 435/84395x 0.3 [0.52%], 149/42390x 0.2 [0.35%], 152/37649x 0.6-a [0.40%], 62/17863x 0.1 [0.35%], 21/13400x 0.5-a [0.16%], 22/9231x 0.4-a [0.24%], 4/2121x 0.6 [0.19%], 3/1036x 0.7-a [0.29%] 20:38:04 That 0.6 win percentage warms the cockles of my heart! 20:38:29 It usually upticks once players adapt though :P 20:39:15 !lg * !quit !leaving s=cv /win 20:39:28 2384/386187 games for * (!quit !leaving): 831/134520x 0.5 [0.62%], 705/104761x 0.4 [0.67%], 435/54036x 0.3 [0.81%], 149/34917x 0.2 [0.43%], 152/29564x 0.6-a [0.51%], 62/16291x 0.1 [0.38%], 21/5764x 0.5-a [0.36%], 22/3498x 0.4-a [0.63%], 4/1923x 0.6 [0.21%], 3/913x 0.7-a [0.33%] 20:39:34 the 0.6/0.7 win rate since february (coincidentally, when speed randomization was added) is slightly higher than the 0.5 win rate 20:39:37 so 20:39:48 we keep trying to make the game harder, and we keep failing 20:39:50 doy: But those are mostly very experienced players on CDO :) 20:39:56 You can't really tell from CDO 20:40:02 i suppose d: 20:40:04 CAO is where the real stats are at 20:40:15 And of course, it's early days for 0.6 20:40:18 apparently hyperbolic has like 22 wins since february 20:40:19 We'll know in a month or so :) 20:40:25 pretty ridiculous 20:40:25 (: 20:41:43 The best players are quite ridiculously good :P 20:41:45 greensnark: when you get to zot tell me if you think sticky flame is burning scrolls way too often :) 20:41:49 I <3 slings. 20:41:52 even with conservation 20:41:57 mikee and 78291 made my eyes bubble in last year's tourney 20:42:06 Per the discussion on the c-r-d, many players like to do suicidal things. Maybe with the new version they just like winning more. 20:42:08 purge: Nah, it's fine :P 20:42:09 greensnark: Hey, I got three wins during the tourney! 20:42:11 i had like 12 scrolls and lost them all on my way to zot:5 with conservation on 20:42:20 to sticky flame 20:42:32 Alweth: Are you Abraham Lewis? 20:42:36 purge: that's basically always been true 20:42:42 Yes, 20:42:46 Aha 20:43:01 I like how I can basically take out a pack of orcs with slings without waking a single one up. 20:43:01 Essentially, every two days someone tells dpeg the game is too hard using your arguments :P 20:43:23 That explains a lot. 20:43:46 It should be an FAQ 20:43:50 (it is) 20:43:50 And I think it might be :) 20:44:01 Yeah, I remember seeing it there 20:44:05 But maybe that says something. 20:44:17 Yeah, maybe Crawl sucks because people die 20:44:23 it says "we are targeting a specific type of player, and we're okay with that" 20:44:23 But you know, dying is fun 20:44:24 ... 20:44:36 dying is fun 20:44:40 It's because I die in Crawl that I'm still playing it 20:44:42 It is, you learn stuff 20:44:45 people that are so obsessed with always winning 20:44:50 Not all dying is fun. 20:44:51 and that's really not what crawl is about 20:44:56 No other computer game that I'm still playing after 8 years 20:45:38 How many computer games that you played 8 years ago have been in relatively continuous development since then? 20:46:00 A few 20:46:11 there was a good 3-4 years where crawl had effectively no dev 20:46:34 Alweth: what does that have to do with anything anyway? 20:47:07 I just suspect there's probably a correlation between playing a game a long time, and that game evolving as you've been playing it. 20:49:22 There's also a pretty strong correlation to the quality of gameplay :P 20:49:36 Correlation does not imply causation! 20:49:44 I like that phrase a lot. 20:49:46 Well, it's a game that's survived some eight years, and it's always been damned hard to win. 20:49:57 And at times it has been harder than this. 20:49:58 I'm in a causal relationship! 20:50:51 Yeah, making Crawl easy would make it boring 20:51:08 Fortunately, I'm not suggesting that. 20:51:16 what are you suggesting then? 20:51:22 You think you're not suggesting that :) 20:51:25 greensnark: It just did it again! 20:51:34 due: ? 20:51:36 It just spat out spam and I headed south like on auto-travel. 20:51:47 What did? 20:51:51 Tried urxvt yet? 20:51:55 No, it's ugly. 20:52:06 due: that's a matter of configuring your fonts d: 20:52:08 That's how it comes off. At least without specific proposals, it seems like you're saying to kill players less, wich equates to being easier fairly easily. 20:52:19 doy: I cannot be fucked to learn the syntax right now. :) 20:52:20 I've made a couple proposals for easing the frustration a bit... limited 'checkpoints' and so forth, but nothing that'st aken root as a good idea 20:52:24 (: 20:52:45 Checkpoints are for games with static content created by humans :P 20:52:47 Alweth: I read your emails as "The game is unenjoyable because it is so hard that most people won't ever win it. Ergo, make it easier." 20:53:07 If you go through a storyline and die in the middle, a checkpoint helps avoid the tedium of going throgh the story again 20:53:20 Solution: crawl doesn't *have* a story.. 20:53:26 greensnark: the basic idea would be "Yay, you made it to the lair! Now you can gen characters at Lair1 instead of D1 20:53:46 Siber: That's pretty dreadful, D:1-10 is the best part of the game :P 20:53:47 Siber: At xL:1, surely? 20:53:49 Siber: People claim that people die for many reasons not related to the game being too hard, like, good gameplay becomes tedious, or the most interesting gameplay is to abandon the main quest and take on a real challenge. 20:54:20 If they abandon 'winning' and have fun in other parts of the game, is that a problem? 20:54:22 Alweth: so what do you suggest? 20:54:27 "Good gameplay becomes tedious" => "Bad gameplay is fun" => if yo're having fun what's the problem? 20:54:31 I'd posit that it isn't. 20:55:33 I'm just suggesting that we examine the issue in more depth. 20:55:52 Examine our assumptions. 20:55:57 dpeg has been examining Crawl gameplay in depth since around 2004 20:56:21 Alweth: the way you keep repeating that just really sounds like you're saying "you guys need to keep thinking about this until you agree with me" 20:56:22 And so have a lot of Crawl players 20:56:38 re checkpoints: You'd have gear and skills contemporary, and fixed, with a pesimistic estimate of a character at that point in the game. You'd loose flexibility and chance of better stuff, but sometimes you don't want to start at the begining again, especially when you've already led a few thousand adventurers from D1 and only seen D27 three times 20:56:39 doy, Im sorry that's what you hear 20:56:45 unless you have anything specific to add to the discussion, i don't see how this is productive 20:56:55 Alweth: That's what you're saying, so that's what we hear :) 20:57:01 because as greensnark said, the devteam *is* already examining these issues 20:57:07 and has been for years 20:57:22 And after playing Crawl for years 20:57:24 so unless there's something more specific you think we should be examining... i don't know what you want here 20:57:51 I would rather die than have checkpoints in crawl. I hate them. Either allow saving at all times or don't! 20:57:55 If I wanted to talk to a hostile audience, I should be posting on c-r-d instead of here, where at least some other people can here it. 20:58:06 Alweth: ... 20:58:12 i'm not being hostile, really 20:58:12 (: 20:58:20 just trying to understand what you mean 20:58:21 greensnark definitely is 20:58:50 greensnark's name is accurate 20:59:26 just be glad sorear isn't here 20:59:31 heh 20:59:33 I'm just trying to put the issue in perspective, and hearing "No, we're not going to make the game easier, so stop suggesting it, doesn't really sound like you're thinking about the issue." It sounds like you don't even understand what I'm saying. 20:59:46 Alweth: that's what i've been trying to say 20:59:53 we *don't* understand what you're saying 21:00:05 that's why i've been asking you to be more specific(: 21:00:06 Well it doesn't help that people keep mischaracterizing it. 21:00:15 purge: I am on c-r-d. 21:00:29 Alweth: Why don't you give us some concrete proposals? 21:00:35 Bye! 21:00:50 purge: It wouldn't be a checkpoint in the sense of you get your character autosaved at set points, but rather alternative character creation points 21:00:51 Instead of saying "Re-evaluate!" 21:00:54 Because concrete proposals have to have concrete goals, and I am trying to get people to think about the goals. 21:01:02 Alweth: okay, we're thinking about the goals 21:01:04 Also, I am not being hostile :P 21:01:11 now what? 21:01:40 Siber: might make for a fun mod if you could make a "this branch only mod" and make it challenging :) 21:01:42 i personally think the goals are fine 21:01:43 doy: after you think about them, come to a decision 21:01:50 I agree, doy. 21:01:50 i just did 21:02:03 so... now what? 21:02:06 But I am trying to add a new one, or at least think about it. 21:02:11 okay 21:02:14 what is that new one? 21:02:55 Setting some goals for how frequently a veteran player should typically win. 21:03:01 purge: for the sake of balance you might say that chracters created at said points are inferior and all levels leading up to them are empty(with some exceptions... orc wouldn't be nuked for players that start at Lair), but you still get to skip a part of a game 21:03:23 Alweth: What if winning isn't the source of fun for a veteran player? 21:03:34 Alweth: i think the current frequency is pretty okay 21:03:50 I'm pretty happy with my win % :P 21:03:54 Siber: Is Crawl trying to be a game or a sandbox? 21:03:54 Wouldn't then preserving what does make the game fun for them be more important than making sure they win a certain amount of time? 21:04:11 I've never won Crawl except for a bugged game. 21:04:16 And I still have a ball. 21:04:36 I think we can safely assume that most players are trying to win, balancing the challenge is part of making the game fun. 21:04:42 Alweth: We decided that long ago. 21:04:43 !games !quitting 21:05:00 It's written in the MANUAL 21:05:08 !gamesby joosa ktyp!=quitting 21:05:09 joosa (ktyp!=quitting) has played 289 games, between 20090620 and 20100329, won 1 (0.3%), high score 1779511, total score 9934831, total turns 4053255, total time 536:30:10. 21:05:16 !lg joosa win 21:05:16 1. joosa the Skullcrusher (L27 MDPa), worshipper of The Shining One, escaped with the Orb and 4 runes on 2009-07-28, with 1779511 points after 140738 turns and 22:32:04. 21:05:19 0.3 % :P 21:05:29 !gamesby 21:05:30 doy has played 777 games, between 20061214 and 20100327, won 22 (2.8%), high score 9588581, total score 53475682, total turns 7399768, total time 1141:30:03. 21:05:33 sorear: What is? That the game should be challenging? That players should die frequently? 21:05:37 joosa: All your games are online? 21:05:42 greensnark: yes 21:05:43 my % is terrible because i stat scummed a bit in .5 21:05:44 And that was in 0.5.0 21:06:06 Stats don't include early 0.3 and 0.4 games though 21:06:11 !gamesby goodplayers 21:06:12 joosa: Congrats on the win :) 21:06:16 goodplayers has played 63608 games, between and 20100330, won 1477 (2.3%), high score 33813486, total score 4140588838, total turns 665709529, total time 57227:46:10. 21:06:16 I should dig up the logs 21:06:22 !gamesby . scr=cao 21:06:24 Alweth: Tier 1 players should win as close to 100% of the time as possible, but no closer 21:06:38 !gamesby . src=cao 21:06:38 pointless_ (src=cao) has played 499 games, between 20080715 and 20100330, won 40 (8.0%), high score 10715634, total score 97344319, total turns 11306958, total time 639:48:18. 21:06:41 !gamesby . src=cdo 21:06:42 pointless_ (src=cdo) has played 338 games, between 20081126 and 20100308, won 7 (2.1%), high score 9078915, total score 33242169, total turns 4933600, total time 302:08:48. 21:06:47 sorear: That seems tautalogical 21:06:51 sorear, that's a good goal. 21:06:56 goodplayers = tiers 1-15 21:07:07 I always die on cdo. I blame lag 21:07:17 ^ me too 21:07:20 I blame lag too! 21:07:25 Trying to win is certainly my goal, but I've played this game a long time, and I know my losses in promising games are pretty universally due to me being inattentive, overconfidence, or threats I don't know how to assess properly. Should the game hold my hand more? I don't really think so 21:07:27 sorear, but the rest of the curve remains unspecified, and isn't necessarily a function of the tier-1 player's win percentage. 21:07:29 !gamesby goodplayers xl>10 21:07:31 Actually wait, I used to have a worse win percentage before lag :P 21:07:34 goodplayers (xl>10) has played 6206 games, between 20061209 and 20100329, won 1476 (23.8%), high score 33813486, total score 4117953658, total turns 540630562, total time 46899:07:24. 21:07:38 !gamesby goodplayers xl>15 21:07:39 goodplayers (xl>15) has played 3196 games, between 20061218 and 20100329, won 1471 (46.0%), high score 33813486, total score 4010608146, total turns 456718054, total time 38413:42:37. 21:07:40 Lag has made me a much better player 21:07:43 !gamesby goodplayers xl>20 21:07:43 goodplayers (xl>20) has played 2234 games, between 20061220 and 20100329, won 1458 (65.3%), high score 33813486, total score 3821274413, total turns 395014929, total time 31484:15:58. 21:07:51 Lag makes you slow down your actions :) 21:07:54 usually.. 21:08:01 Checkpoints as I propose would shorten my span of time to make mistakes in, which is why I try to come up with ways to fairly make it a rougher start on the player. 21:08:07 !gamesby goodplayers xl>18 21:08:08 goodplayers (xl>18) has played 2534 games, between 20061220 and 20100329, won 1469 (58.0%), high score 33813486, total score 3910746578, total turns 417932259, total time 34246:16:33. 21:08:08 I play too hastily and die stupidly 21:08:12 !gamesby goodplayers xl>17 21:08:12 goodplayers (xl>17) has played 2726 games, between 20061220 and 20100329, won 1470 (53.9%), high score 33813486, total score 3948412216, total turns 429981135, total time 35614:43:09. 21:08:14 greensnark: you can just maintain sanity playing slowly unlike the rest of us :) 21:08:15 Sadly it makes me keysmash until I get killed by a lich or something. 21:08:16 !gamesby goodplayers xl>16 21:08:17 goodplayers (xl>16) has played 2912 games, between 20061218 and 20100329, won 1471 (50.5%), high score 33813486, total score 3977863375, total turns 440901871, total time 36834:17:57. 21:08:31 so a good player who makes it to xl16 has a 50/50 shot at winning 21:08:40 i think that's pretty reasonable 21:08:50 yeah i keysmash alot so lag makes a huge difference :D 21:09:20 I think in practice you probably have a 100% shot at winning if you hit xl16 21:09:23 barring user error 21:09:30 !gamesby . xl>15 21:09:30 greensnark (xl>15) has played 44 games, between 20061225 and 20100314, won 17 (38.6%), high score 2715778, total score 28376569, total turns 4419844, total time 641:11:03. 21:09:34 :( 21:09:38 Yeah, I'm pretty careless :P 21:09:39 stabwound: i think that's probably a reasonable assessment 21:09:43 I developed a habit of hitting auto-explore over and over until my character stops, I think that has been somewhat helpful 21:09:49 !gamesby xl>15 21:09:49 doy (xl>15) has played 40 games, between 20070322 and 20100128, won 22 (55.0%), high score 9588581, total score 51971429, total turns 4731744, total time 794:12:18. 21:09:49 stabwound: you would know 21:10:02 !gamesby . xl>15 21:10:02 joosa (xl>15) has played 26 games, between 20090620 and 20100329, won 1 (3.8%), high score 1779511, total score 8835085, total turns 2314406, total time 354:18:33. 21:10:14 All avoidable deaths 21:10:20 From what I can remember 21:10:41 stabwound: so you would say that non-user-error deaths always come before XL 16? 21:11:00 but getting only 26 chars from 289 over xl 15 tells enough 21:11:19 In fact this conversation has made me develop it into a more workable idea... I should FR it now! 21:11:21 lower than that, probably, I don't know an exact level 21:11:22 stabwound: doesn't that seem unnecessarily punishing and not particularly good for newer players? 21:11:34 -!- murphy_slaw has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi] 21:11:43 well, i agree that the early game is a bit too luck based, yes 21:11:48 I've been saying that for a while 21:12:00 and by early game, I mean like the first few dungeon levels 21:12:08 Alweth: if you just dropped a new player into xl16 games, the win rate of games over xl16 would drop pretty significantly 21:12:24 i mean, you do learn a lot of necessary tactical skills from the early game 21:12:29 doy: but that's not what stabwound is saying 21:12:33 sure 21:12:58 i'm responding to you, not him 21:12:59 (: 21:13:03 doy: he's effectively saying that when he dies, it is frequently from bad luck early in the game 21:13:24 "So?" 21:13:30 Man has 19 wins in a row :P 21:13:34 If you start, say, a random monk, you probably have a 50/50 shot of dying to the first monster you fight 21:13:59 totally beyond your control 21:14:09 yes, there is a pretty big variance in early game difficulty across combos 21:14:22 i don't know if eliminating that is really possible though 21:14:36 If it can be eliminated in the late game, why not in the early game? 21:14:41 its easily possible by just giving them better equipment 21:14:44 you have resources in the late game 21:14:45 but is it desirable 21:15:05 Please don't screw with my early game difficulty, thanks :P 21:15:36 there's a difference between difficulty and flipping a coin to see if you die on d:1 or not :B 21:15:39 if you equipped all combos as well as chaosknights they'd be set 21:15:45 I think when you can walk around a corner and see a centaur on D3, it's a little fucked up. 21:15:59 but that's just me, apparently. 21:16:00 eh, thats part of the game, luck is a part of it 21:16:04 Siber: shrug, i don't see a problem with that 21:16:14 teach you to run 21:16:14 that part sucks, but it's not nearly as bad as D:1 imo 21:16:18 and to identify things early 21:16:19 And you can often handle a D:3 centaur 21:16:22 that too 21:16:28 I've gotten shot to death by early centaurs before I could get to cover or it before. 21:16:28 yes 21:16:31 I have managed to elude D:1 centaurs :P 21:16:36 Admittedly I went on to die to a worm on D:2, but :P 21:16:46 I'm still pretty happy at getting away from the centaur :P 21:16:58 !lg . kiler=worm 21:16:59 Unknown selector: kiler 21:17:00 !lg . killer=worm 21:17:00 1. greensnark the Ducker (L2 HaMo), slain by a worm on D:2 on 2008-07-24, with 108 points after 1565 turns and 0:08:26. 21:17:04 :'( 21:17:07 greensnark: that's a common pattern in roguelikes 21:17:11 Until then I had a worm-free record too 21:17:20 !lg killer=worm 21:17:20 7. doy the Skirmisher (L2 GnCr), slain by a worm on D:2 on 2008-08-29, with 47 points after 1156 turns and 0:01:51. 21:17:22 player runs from fryingpan into fire 21:17:25 !lg killer=worm, 21:17:25 No games for purge (killer=worm,). 21:17:26 !lg killer=worm 21:17:26 4. purge the Skirmisher (L3 OgFi), slain by a worm on D:2 on 2007-06-28, with 122 points after 1676 turns and 0:02:36. 21:17:32 !lg killer=worm 21:17:32 6. Stabwound the Digger (L3 OMEE), slain by a worm on D:3 on 2007-09-25, with 122 points after 1790 turns and 0:08:14. 21:17:33 Alweth: yes, that's what keeps them exciting 21:17:43 !lg killer=worm max=xl 21:17:43 7. doy the Skirmisher (L3 DSCK), worshipper of Xom, slain by a worm on D:2 on 2007-01-14, with 172 points after 752 turns and 0:03:36. 21:17:57 !lg killer=worm 21:17:57 2. Alweth the Firebug (L3 SEFE), slain by a worm on D:1 on 2009-11-09, with 124 points after 2304 turns and 0:12:16. 21:18:14 !lg syllogism killer=worm 21:18:14 6. syllogism the Believer (L2 HEHe), worshipper of Elyvilon, mangled by a worm on D:2 on 2008-06-26, with 235 points after 1519 turns and 0:09:12. 21:18:21 D:5 and below deaths are meh because its not like your wasting alot of time restarting anyways 21:18:24 !lg stabwound killer=worm 21:18:25 6. Stabwound the Digger (L3 OMEE), slain by a worm on D:3 on 2007-09-25, with 122 points after 1790 turns and 0:08:14. 21:18:34 if you use autoexplore anyways 21:18:37 what purge said 21:19:27 well I don't think that's very good, if the deaths don't matter to you what is the point of them? If you lose a fight on d:1 and die you restart, but you don't learn anything 21:19:46 I enjoy the early game start 21:19:57 I enjoy the post d:1 early game 21:20:11 D:1 really annoys me most of the time 21:20:37 although you jump for joy if you managed to hit xl2 21:21:07 Empty D:1, start player at XL 2 and a healing potion? 21:21:13 Sounds a little boring to me :P 21:21:27 But we can try experiments, why not 21:21:27 empty d:0 with 3 stairs down to d:1 21:21:36 Napkin and rax are happy to host variants! 21:21:44 And changing start is easy 21:21:44 pointless's idea is actually interesting 21:21:59 So write up a patch and we'll put it on one of the servers and see how it plays 21:22:02 i agree, i kinda like the sound of that 21:22:11 i don't know how much it would help 21:22:16 but it could be interesting 21:22:30 I think you'd be better off writing a patch reworking the starting equipment of all combos 21:22:36 well, if you run into a hobgoblin with a club as your first monster, you aren't automatically dead 21:22:43 with that idea 21:22:45 stabwound: how so? 21:22:52 well, i guess you can run 21:22:56 you go back upstairs and try a different set 21:22:57 yeah, okay 21:23:00 Fall back and use different stair 21:23:36 The change would improve win % for the best players while leaving new players more or less as before :) 21:23:36 my main issue with D:1 is the lack of options 21:24:19 greensnark: I think your average experienced player would make good use of it, when they need to. 21:24:42 Alweth: Sure, note I said new players wouldn't benefit 21:24:48 And you kept talking about new players 21:25:28 Yeah, I was talking about the group inbetween new players and best players. 21:25:59 if you're a new player to a roguelike you can't really expect to have your hand held from turn 1 21:26:16 maybe running the game in tutorial mode should give you universal bonus items, like a wand of fire or heal wounds potions 21:26:16 stabwound: agreed 21:26:23 Alweth: So all you wanted was to make D:1 an easier start? You should have said so, we'd have been discussing that instead of general philosophy :P 21:26:28 pruge: that would teach bad play 21:26:32 but it shouldn't be that you have no chance to survive at all even if you know every single thing about the game 21:26:38 Alweth: good point :) 21:27:08 purge: also, at the moment, tutorial games are scored as normal games 21:27:27 Tutorial games are normal games + clippy 21:27:29 yeah, I dunno if I'd touch the tutorial mode at all 21:27:30 -!- ortoslon has joined ##crawl-dev 21:27:44 there has been talk about making single level tutorial-type challenges 21:27:46 stabwound: what's your win percentage? 21:27:53 to teach people various strategy bits 21:27:55 doy: thats an excellent idea 21:27:59 !gamesby stabwound 21:28:01 stabwound has played 746 games, between 20061204 and 20100328, won 122 (16.4%), high score 14148691, total score 159733018, total turns 108853836, total time 1637:26:36. 21:28:11 that's every game I've ever played of crawl though 21:28:17 Is there a way to limit it to the last 6 months or so? 21:28:18 I never played pre-CAO 21:28:30 !gamesby stabwound start>20080601 21:28:30 stabwound (start>20080601) has played 65 games, between 20080601 and 20100328, won 39 (60.0%), high score 14148691, total score 63257410, total turns 3899395, total time 315:57:45. 21:28:44 nice ratio :O 21:30:20 If we add a D:0 foyer level we can also get rid of the dreadfully boring D:1 pop :P 21:30:41 ? 21:30:52 D:0 foyer sounds delightful 21:30:52 D:1 has a very narrow range of monster gen 21:31:02 It's the most boring level in Crawl in terms of monster gen 21:31:17 No moderate fuzz at all, because the player has no stairs to maneuver 21:31:21 it's special cased to be that way, isn't it? 21:31:26 Yes 21:31:39 But it wouldn't need to be if there's a D:0 foyer with three stairs to different parts of D:1 21:31:50 I don't like where this is going :P 21:31:50 I think branch shuffling would be cool. 21:31:52 yeah, that sounds reasonable 21:31:53 hehe 21:31:58 Alweth: ? 21:32:02 eh? 21:32:16 if there were orc bands etc on D:1 that would be kind of brutal 21:32:17 Allow brahcnes to appear earlier and easier, and vis-versa. 21:32:28 they already do 21:32:41 I don't think I've ever seen one 21:32:49 I know, but they're still generally limited so you usually find them in roughly the same order. 21:32:53 I've seen gnolls though 21:32:59 i think there can be orcs, but not bands on d:1 21:33:14 but yeah, gnoll bands are reasonably common 21:33:23 Gnoll bands are actually very rare :P 21:33:38 !lg place=d:1 killer=centaur 21:33:39 2. Stabwound the Ruffian (L2 DrTm), mangled by a centaur (a bow) on D:1 on 2007-02-10, with 54 points after 1053 turns and 0:06:46. 21:33:41 <1/100 from what I remember 21:33:45 I hit one on DL 2 or 3 once. 21:33:53 !lg * place=d:1 s=killer 21:33:54 Thought they were hounds, or something, as I recall. 21:33:56 D:2-3 use normal monster gen 21:34:00 !lg place=d:1 killer=centaur -2 21:34:06 225799 games for * (place=d:1): 115854x , 30631x a hobgoblin, 26509x a kobold, 10120x a goblin, 7910x a giant gecko, 6801x a jackal, 4741x a gnoll, 4676x a giant bat, 4067x a giant cockroach, 3524x a rat, 3388x an ooze, 1500x a giant newt, 1139x a snake, 747x a worm, 340x an orc, 337x a small snake, 325x a giant mite, 313x a giant ant, 272x an orc wizard, 232x an ogre, 221x a hound, 190x Ijyb, 178... 21:34:06 1. Stabwound the Skirmisher (L2 DSGl), shot by a centaur (bolt of frost) on D:1 on 2007-01-24, with 54 points after 306 turns and 0:02:08. 21:34:11 D:1 uses bowdlerized monster gen 21:34:23 !lg killer=gnoll 21:34:24 1. Alweth the Covered (L3 MDFi), mangled by a gnoll (a +1,+2 halberd of dragon slaying) on D:1 on 2009-11-12, with 174 points after 568 turns and 0:04:34. 21:34:41 That hurt. 21:34:52 !lg place=d:1 killer=gnoll 21:34:53 6. Stabwound the Skirmisher (L2 DSCr), slain by a gnoll (a dagger of protection) on D:1 on 2007-08-07, with 60 points after 1121 turns and 0:07:10. 21:35:00 looks like gnolls have ~4% of d:1 kills 21:35:16 !lg place=d:1 s=killer 21:35:18 246 games for doy (place=d:1): 63x a hobgoblin, 53x a kobold, 22x a giant gecko, 18x a jackal, 17x a giant bat, 16x a goblin, 14x , 8x a giant cockroach, 7x an ooze, 6x a rat, 5x a snake, 4x a giant newt, 4x a gnoll, 3x an orc, 2x a hound, 1x a centaur, 1x an orc warrior, 1x Ijyb, 1x a worm 21:35:20 !lg * D:1 killer=gnoll s=cv 21:35:22 4741 games for * (D:1 killer=gnoll): 1681x 0.5, 1277x 0.4, 678x 0.3, 470x 0.2, 343x 0.6-a, 178x 0.1, 53x 0.5-a, 28x 0.4-a, 24x 0.6, 9x 0.7-a 21:35:44 !lg . D:1 s=killer 21:35:44 126 games for greensnark (D:1): 40x a hobgoblin, 27x a kobold, 11x a giant gecko, 8x a giant cockroach, 7x , 7x a jackal, 7x a goblin, 5x a giant bat, 5x a gnoll, 3x a rat, 2x an ooze, 1x a small snake, 1x Sigmund, 1x Jessica, 1x an orc priest 21:35:56 i have 17 giant bat kills? how embarrassing 21:36:01 heh 21:36:02 Hobgoblins bestride this narrow world like a colossus 21:36:16 !lg . D:1 s=killer 21:36:16 229 games for stabwound (D:1): 63x , 48x a hobgoblin, 32x a kobold, 19x a giant gecko, 15x a goblin, 13x a jackal, 7x an ooze, 6x a gnoll, 6x a giant bat, 5x a giant cockroach, 3x a snake, 2x an orc priest, 2x an orc, 2x a giant newt, 2x a rat, 2x a centaur, 1x a giant frog, 1x a hound 21:36:21 !lg . d:1 s=killer 21:36:22 192 games for pointless_ (d:1): 50x a kobold, 37x , 34x a hobgoblin, 16x a giant gecko, 11x a goblin, 9x a gnoll, 8x a jackal, 7x an ooze, 6x a giant bat, 4x a giant cockroach, 3x a rat, 2x a snake, 1x an orc, 1x a human, 1x an orc wizard, 1x a giant newt, 1x a worm 21:36:29 !lg . d:1 s=ckiller 21:36:29 192 games for pointless_ (d:1): 50x a kobold, 34x a hobgoblin, 18x quitting, 16x a giant gecko, 13x pois, 11x a goblin, 9x a gnoll, 8x a jackal, 7x an ooze, 6x a giant bat, 4x a giant cockroach, 3x a rat, 2x a snake, 2x trap, 2x draining, 1x a human, 1x an orc wizard, 1x something, 1x a giant newt, 1x an orc, 1x cloud, 1x a worm 21:36:50 is that "63x " in mine quitting? 21:36:59 could also be things like poison 21:37:02 oh 21:37:02 !lg stabwound d:1 s=ckiller 21:37:03 229 games for stabwound (d:1): 54x quitting, 48x a hobgoblin, 32x a kobold, 19x a giant gecko, 15x a goblin, 13x a jackal, 7x an ooze, 6x a gnoll, 6x a giant bat, 5x pois, 5x a giant cockroach, 3x a snake, 2x an orc priest, 2x an orc, 2x draining, 2x a giant newt, 2x a centaur, 2x a rat, 1x a giant frog, 1x starvation, 1x targeting, 1x a hound 21:37:14 looks like mostly quitting though d: 21:37:27 I was start scumming mummies or something at one point I think 21:38:07 !lg place=D:1 killer=orc priest 21:38:08 2. Stabwound the Ruffian (L1 SETm), slain by an orc priest (an orcish short sword) on D:1 on 2007-08-25, with 12 points after 130 turns and 0:01:16. 21:38:20 stabwound: Are there any areas of good play that you would say require particular amounts of tedium? 21:38:52 the swamp in its entirety 21:38:59 oh 21:38:59 =p 21:39:10 you didn't mean that 21:39:17 uhhh 21:39:35 Actually, I found the swamp to be quite tedious. 21:39:47 its much better than it used to be 21:39:49 in .5 21:39:50 you played the 0.6 version? 21:39:58 The water monster changes <3 21:40:02 you can actually auto-explore it!! 21:40:08 Oh, that's great! 21:40:10 Swamp worms no longer induce genocidal rage 21:40:13 Haven't played it in .6 21:40:15 yet 21:40:34 yeah, we made a lot of changes in 0.6 to try to prevent that stuff 21:40:37 for the swamp 21:42:21 greensnark: That's good, because genocidal rage against swamp worms would usually result in starving to death while you waited for them to surface. 21:43:39 my biggest annoyance in swamp in my .6 win was that alligators/babies ALWAYS run away 21:43:49 and submerge 21:44:05 I can understand babies running 100% but i wish alligators didn't 21:44:11 they leave their babies to die :( 21:45:04 I think they are supposed to get some kind of pack behavior at some point 21:47:19 oh and also the miasma on S:$ rotted my hp ALOT :| 21:48:09 maybe you shouldn't stand in it then 21:48:38 Yeah, there's definitely some plans for better pack behavior for yaks, etc. in the pipeline, but it may be a while down the road. 21:56:05 purge: Haha, you got the undead Swamp too? :) 21:56:14 I lost 5 hp in rot :P 21:56:37 But mostly it was all over once I got a Blue Death from Makhleb 21:56:51 Faith+Makhleb=LOL 21:57:06 yeah that sounds like a nice combo :D 21:58:01 faith is balanced late game by the fact that you often need to toggle between conservation/resist mutation/resist corrosion 21:58:49 I never use conservation :P 21:58:57 Well, unless I have nothing better 21:59:11 Mornin'. 21:59:21 i wonder how much conservation really helps 22:00:00 conservation lets you be lazy 22:00:35 which is important for some people 22:00:35 (: 22:00:39 doy: for me even losing 1 potion of heal wounds is bad if i don't have a wand of healing 22:00:45 and 1 stupid orc wizard can cause that 22:01:32 wow freeze is uber 22:01:56 orc wizard early game = this is supposed to be a challenge? 22:03:46 How much mana does an orc wizard have? 22:04:23 !whereis purge 22:04:24 purge the Chiller (L5 MfIE) is currently on D:4 after 4230 turns. 22:04:27 infinate mana 22:04:32 monsters dont have mana limits 22:04:44 !streak purge 22:04:48 purge has 4 wins, none consecutive, but has just won (HOFi) and can keep going! 22:05:06 purge was talking like he was playing an orc wizard 22:05:47 greensnark: I play tiles alot as you should know :) so i have more wins than that 22:06:05 Waitaminit 22:06:07 !lg * Shoals 22:06:07 123. rob the Cleaver (L15 DGCr), drowned on Shoals:1 on 2010-03-29, with 88882 points after 43628 turns and 4:44:22. 22:06:16 rob is trying to help Shoals statistics :) 22:06:38 sadly i will have bolt of cold before i enter shoals :( 22:06:46 !tv rob place=Shoals 22:06:46 4. rob, XL15 DGCr, T:43628 requested for FooTV. 22:06:55 !tell rob Thanks for the Shoals death, but you don't have to artifically inflate the numbers for me, I can face the truth! :P 22:06:55 greensnark: OK, I'll let rob know. 22:08:24 Someone needs a force_more :P 22:08:27 did he just miss the message? 22:08:39 He had a potion of lev in inventory and the spell, so yes 22:08:56 Or he was trying to be kind by giving me a free Shoals death :P 22:09:04 ouch 22:09:12 the default rc should really probably default to having duration: be a force_more 22:09:20 At least for lev 22:09:38 -!- Alweth has quit [Quit: Runs away crying...] 22:10:18 also, danger: 22:22:11 danger? 22:22:29 force_more_message = danger: 22:22:50 ah 22:26:38 !seen felirx 22:26:38 I last saw felirx at Mon Mar 29 22:01:40 2010 UTC (5h 24m 58s ago) saying losing 3~5 wizards duo te crazy immortal hobgoblins skews the stats nicely! on ##crawl-dev. 22:31:42 -!- eith has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 22:31:58 wtf these mold trails are NOT leading to the active bassciimyte :( 22:35:54 Maybe they don't want you to find it 22:35:59 hehe 22:40:50 I return 22:40:57 I assume you missed me. 22:41:11 obviously 22:41:42 :D 22:42:52 definately looking like EV is better than AC :) 22:42:57 on this merfolk ice elementalist 22:43:13 well 22:43:23 merfolk ev characters have always been stupid powerful 22:43:34 yeah but i am talking early lair 22:43:36 melee 22:43:45 so am i 22:43:46 d: 22:43:50 well, EV was always qquite good, but AC was always better 22:43:56 so when AC got nerfed, everyone's all zomg ev 22:44:11 i am meleeing gila monster and hypogryphs with no buffs 22:44:17 with a sabre of freezing 22:44:22 +2 robe nothing else 22:44:23 Imisread that as in the buff. 22:44:59 Well, EV was also buffed 22:45:10 That really tips the scales 22:45:10 greensnark: not that much though 22:45:20 Noticeably at the high end 22:45:25 even after the stepdown 22:45:43 And at the low end EV is so much better than AC it's quite ridiculous 22:46:18 -!- pointless_ has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.2/20100316074819]] 22:46:53 For scratchy characters EV is close to a no-brainer now 22:47:02 Shield being optional 22:47:16 I tried to do a heavy armour MuPr several times :P 22:47:28 Once I gave that up I did much better :) 22:47:47 The early combat penalties seem pretty brutal given the lowered protection 22:47:48 yeah basically my point is, early game EV seems better than AC for pure meleeing 22:47:52 Once you skill up armour it seems fine 22:47:58 But the low end of the curve is rather unkind 22:50:03 oh wait freezing helps alot more than i was thinking since it slows all these things in lair 22:50:16 the brand* 22:52:15 can someone tell me why all these spells are greyed out in my memorization interface on CAO? 22:52:58 because you can't memorize them 22:53:02 "3 spell levels left" 22:53:02 ah! 22:53:04 dur :) 23:00:53 hmmm get oz refrig or save up for bolt of cold..... 23:04:37 Checkpoint Reached! Respawn point unlocked! (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1206) by Siber 23:05:06 refrig <3 23:05:23 yup i got it :D 23:08:49 Alweth left? 23:09:14 apparently 23:15:26 I haven't tried heavy armour in 0.6 but it's kind of funny that dodging and armour have done a switcheroo 23:15:41 was dodging buffed other than uncapping the bonus from dex? 23:17:22 I'm thinking if dodging really is better than armour, that's made twice as bad considering you can also take up spellcasting easily in dodging armour 23:17:39 making heavy armour the clearly inferior choice 23:18:18 yeah, i'm thinking we're likely going to want an ev nerf for 0.7 23:18:20 but we'll see 23:22:13 -!- Vandal has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:22:30 -!- Vandal has joined ##crawl-dev 23:23:45 I don't think EV is necessarily overpowered unless it's been made way better than it was in 0.5 23:24:07 it's still pretty sketchy especially going up against heavy hitters like stone giants and orb guardians 23:25:06 I'm just saying it may be that AC was nerfed a little too much 23:25:15 yeah, that's also possible 23:25:28 Yes 23:25:42 I think low-armour skill characters have it pretty bad 23:25:42 i think we're likely going to want an ev nerf and an ac buff for 0.7 23:25:43 (: 23:25:53 I know people strongly of that opinion. I haven't played much since the AC nerf went in, so... 23:25:55 less drastic than the changes for 0.6 though 23:26:03 Once you gain enough skill that the protection begins to work and combat penalties are reduced, armour is pretty ok 23:26:47 normal character with maxed dodging now ranges from 24-44 ev across 10-50 dex, as opposed to 23-31 ev in 0.5 23:26:48 I think DrPraetor had a proposal for low-armour-skill tweaking. I haven't looked at it closely, but something like it may be needed 23:26:51 which is pretty significant 23:27:26 who really ends up with 50 dex though? :p 23:27:29 yeah just give it a tiny nudge, not a buff 23:27:32 chei worshippers 23:27:32 (: 23:27:34 stabwound: Cheibradpitt worshippers 23:28:18 then again, they're at a base speed of 5 to get to that point, so 23:28:28 geez 23:29:24 do multiple ponderousness items add to the delay? 23:29:28 at a dex of 24, it's 31 vs 37 though (0.5 vs 0.6) 23:29:31 yeah 23:29:40 it's +2 delay per item 23:29:51 ah 23:29:59 you want to have as many ponderous items as possible from what i have gathered 23:30:13 they say chars with blocked armor slots are a no no for chei 23:30:21 "they say" 23:30:28 really, I don't know how significant a difference it makes from 31 to 37 ev 23:30:39 I can't see it being that much 23:30:44 shrug 23:30:57 It makes quite a difference in melee since monsters have lowish to hit 23:31:01 In ranged combat, not so much :P 23:31:07 Yaktaur captains have ridiculous to-hit :P 23:31:14 yeah, seriously 23:31:14 yeah :P 23:31:15 (: 23:31:38 even deflect missiles doesn't help much 23:31:42 Gastronok mumbles some strange words. 23:31:42 _You feel a sudden, passing aversion to salt. 23:31:43 heh 23:31:45 or reflect I mean 23:31:51 or whatever it is heh 23:31:59 lol that is a greeat quote 23:32:15 Gastronok cantrips are funny 23:32:25 78291 had a great Sonja quote earlier, let me find it 23:32:26 earth elementalists need a spell that hits with salt 23:32:40 !lg race=gh max=xl 23:32:41 53. doy the Brawler (L15 GhMo), worshipper of Cheibriados, mangled by Norris (a +0,+0 hand axe) on D:18 on 2010-02-19, with 87060 points after 33162 turns and 3:50:46. 23:33:37 < N78291> Sonja evaporates and reforms as a crocodile! < N78291> Sonja says, "If only old Madame Brzewit could see me now!" 23:33:55 is Cheibriados "good" in practice? as opposed to just being a unique/challenge god 23:34:03 chei is quite good 23:34:04 on paper it sounds pretty bad 23:34:06 probably needs a nerf 23:34:09 ah 23:34:10 greensnark: I don't get it 23:34:28 HAHAHAHA 23:34:41 although i'm not sure how much of that was ridiculous ev 23:34:55 dex didn't get a stepdown until quite recently 23:35:06 and so chei worshippers were walking around with 80ev or so 23:35:13 which affects things, i'm pretty sure 23:35:14 (: 23:35:25 isn't chei's damage spell op as well? 23:35:33 op? 23:35:37 over-powered 23:35:48 quite possible 23:36:00 it was really effective when i was using it 23:36:08 ah, you get FCN+++ too 23:36:23 that speed 5 thing though, I dunno 23:36:31 you have to play more carefully 23:36:36 I hate nagas because they're below average speed 23:36:42 Bah, Abraham Lewis still talking about unavoidable death on c-r-d 23:36:49 I fucking unsubscribed, why am I still getting this crap 23:37:24 heh 23:37:38 And that passive aggressive first line really does him no favours :P 23:37:41 I didn't see this, sounds "interesting" 23:37:52 "William, thank you for taking the time to read my thoughts carefully" 23:37:54 :P 23:38:11 i'm pretty sure my assessment was accurate 23:38:14 "Unlike all the other cruel people here, *you* understand me William! Will you marry me?" 23:38:53 due: Did you do the Madame Brzyadda line? It's awesome :) 23:39:12 20:56 < doy> Alweth: the way you keep repeating that just really sounds like you're saying "you guys need to keep thinking about this until you agree with me" 23:39:20 pretty much sums up his entire interaction 23:39:39 Hey, we have new Sprint maps! 23:40:44 where? 23:41:11 Chapayev said he had a new map in that thread 23:41:19 ah, yeah 23:41:25 well, we don't have it yet 23:41:25 (: 23:41:33 What happened to Mu_'s sprint map 23:41:38 He said he was working on one 23:41:50 So what is the idea for Sprint in the tournament? 23:42:01 A Sprint challenge? Parallel category? 23:42:10 -!- myuzinn has joined ##crawl-dev 23:42:17 no idea 23:47:16 I miss zot defense 23:47:37 someone said they were working on rewriting it, i think 23:47:39 that was a fun diversion but really needed further work 23:47:42 yeah 23:47:42 oh nice 23:50:11 @??grum 23:50:11 Grum (04g) | Speed: 10 | HD: 4 | Health: 40 | AC/EV: 2/9 | Damage: 20 | Res: 06magic(16) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 188. 23:50:14 wow 23:50:22 was not expecting that kind of damage output 23:50:23 (: