00:00:54 you know, you'd think the x11 api would at least be documented 00:01:36 why? 00:01:45 Do you know how good the documentation for the python curses module is? 00:01:50 because i need to use it 00:01:53 *excellent*: as excellent as a blank sheet of paper is. 00:02:01 and it's annoying having to read through source 00:02:56 alternatively: you'd think the sdl people would at least try to care about video modes other than opengl 00:11:41 Xlib API is documented, mostly 00:11:48 in... man pages 00:11:53 it's so 1983 00:14:09 000 [22:07:27] doy@magus ~ $ man XRRSetCrtcGamma 00:14:09 No manual entry for XRRSetCrtcGamma 00:14:36 My favorite is the man page for XkbSetDetectableAutoRepeat, which misspells the function's name. 00:14:58 the man page for xorg.conf contains a great line 00:15:11 VIDEOADAPTOR SECTION Nobody wants to say how this works. Maybe nobody knows ... 00:17:55 weird, my Xorg documentation checkout is completely missing XRandR 00:18:05 it has most of the other obscure extensions though 00:20:12 i'm not convinced that xrandr is even documented 00:20:18 google doesn't turn up much 00:21:45 due: Python curses is exactly like C curses, just need to learn C curses :P 00:22:02 curses is in general a terrible API 00:23:08 greensnark: True. 00:23:26 well 00:23:33 the c api is pretty terrible 00:23:38 you could make a decent api out of it 00:23:49 but people just seem to want to wrap the c api at the lowest level possible 00:23:57 i don't really understand why 00:24:01 doy: http://cgit.freedesktop.org/xorg/proto/randrproto/tree/randrproto.txt 00:24:25 the C apis for the extensions are all undocumented because they're generated code 00:24:49 there's the protocol documentation 00:24:52 sigh 00:25:16 i really don't care about the protocol 00:25:21 RRSetCrtcGamma is line 987 00:25:22 i want an api to write code against 00:25:39 the protocol is the API 00:25:41 no 00:25:42 it's not 00:26:05 -!- ortoslon has joined ##crawl-dev 00:26:07 let me get this straight 00:26:19 you want actual, hand-written documentation for machine generated code 00:26:33 i want to be able to look up an api function 00:26:33 won't that increase the effort in making a new xlib by about 70x? 00:26:36 and see what arguments it takes 00:26:45 right now you change the protocol spec and run a python script 00:26:58 crtcs: LISTofCRTC 00:27:02 this means nothing to me 00:27:04 when i'm writing c code 00:30:34 i mean, the documentation is right there, they could at least insert that stuff as comments into the generated headers 00:31:12 and then possibly even autogenerate c api documentation from that 00:31:43 having to cross-reference data types constantly is not a reasonable thing to be doing when trying to write code 00:33:56 if there's enough information there to autogenerate code, and the documentation for each protocol request is right there in the spec that the code is being autogenerated from, then there's certainly enough information available to autogenerate api documentation 00:40:43 -!- Twinge has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:40:57 -!- Twinge has joined ##crawl-dev 01:44:22 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:54:59 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 01:55:49 -!- stabwound has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:59:46 -!- ortoslon has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:01:38 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 02:05:38 -!- ixtli has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:07:05 -!- ortoslon has joined ##crawl-dev 02:18:58 -!- ortoslon has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:20:46 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 02:22:59 -!- ortoslon has joined ##crawl-dev 02:23:13 morning all 02:29:15 -!- ogaz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:35:08 -!- ortoslon has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:00:13 -!- ortoslon has joined ##crawl-dev 03:00:59 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 03:14:38 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 03:35:25 -!- ortoslon has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:44:11 haha 03:44:19 "Note that I started this guy before they applied the new EV nerf, so his EV was a little higher than it should've been, but I think I would've made it either way. 03:44:22 " 03:44:30 "EV 88" 03:44:32 doy: SA? 03:44:41 "a little higher" <3 03:44:51 dpeg: yeah 03:44:52 (: 03:47:52 dpeg, what would it have been with the nerf? :) 03:49:14 cbus: I cannot find the page with the tables right now... perhaps around 50? 03:49:40 it was actually 80 plus phase shift 03:49:48 hmm, possibly, I have no clue thuogh, I haven't played that far with a dodge char after the nerf 03:49:59 and 80 is ~48 or so after the nerf 03:50:36 but in 0.5, natural ev capped out at 41 03:50:42 so that's still pretty good 03:50:50 Have sacrificing corpses offer all corpses in sight (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1165) by OG17 03:51:13 np: Infected Mushroom - Project 100 :) 03:51:29 oh, haha, that's also the guy that found four randart katanas 03:51:29 doy, yeah, 30 03:51:33 doy, yeah, 30+ is awesome 03:51:38 two of which were of speed 03:51:42 hmm, stupid + being in a quirky place on this laptop :) 03:52:37 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 03:52:54 yeah, 31 was max natural ev for non-spriggans 03:53:18 and most ev fighters weren't spriggans, i think 03:53:19 (: 03:53:37 yes 03:53:51 hm,m wild guess 03:54:00 most ev fighters were like Mf/Ko/Ha/Gn/Sp 03:54:03 probably in that order 03:54:22 Mf seems like the given choice for Ev fighters :) 03:54:23 spriggans were probably more popular than gnomes 03:54:30 yeah 03:54:33 but not in my book! ;) 03:54:36 I loved those Gn 03:54:36 (: 03:54:47 also, he/se are probably up there a bit 03:54:50 let's axe Ha now 03:55:03 yessss 03:55:19 kilobyte, weren't there plans for fixing em? 03:55:38 axe now, fix later 03:55:41 once dwarves become small, i don't think they'll really have an interesting place anymore 03:55:50 doy: true that 03:55:52 the page I read seemed to be mostly "we need them because they are in LOTR and fantasy literature lots" 03:56:09 rather than "halflings cover a particular niche" or whatever 03:56:12 kobolds are almost the same, except not as boring 03:56:22 yeah, i like kobolds a lot 03:56:43 Some say that Ha now have the slings+shields niche, but that applies equally well to other species, imo. 03:57:03 the slings/shields niche was kinda forced on them too 03:57:09 yes 03:57:13 myuzinn, i F-ing hate Ha 03:57:17 atleast in LOTR :) 03:57:25 they are just whining midgets with hairy feet 03:57:26 ;D 03:57:31 I was reading the source and I noticed that it makes mention of 03:57:39 changing metabolism to be size-dependent in future? 03:57:39 The only good halfling is a quartered halfling. 03:57:46 I thought it sounded interesting 03:58:02 would mean trolls would have to become huge or some such though 03:58:19 cbus: they're physically and mentally equivalent to 10 years old human children, so it's no wonder they're annoying 03:58:52 myuzinn: that's a 4.1 relic 03:58:55 in Tolkien, that is 03:59:06 ah k 04:01:40 we can get exactly the same effect by hand, and it's not worth not being able to fine-tune metabolism 04:03:30 yes 04:03:32 like, in that old Fiend race proposal of mine (when DS were merely humans with a few random mutations, so now the proposal is mostly redundant), they were supposed to grow from spriggan-sized imps to cyberdemon-likes, with a specific opt out from metabolism increases 04:03:41 -!- stabwound has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:04:31 has something changed recently with ally AI? 04:04:43 my zombies are systematically searching the dungeon for stuff to kill 04:04:52 instead of the old stupid panting bodyguards 04:05:10 I noticed a lot of ally kills with yred earlier today 04:05:55 Give Fedhas "life-saving" drowning prevention (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1166) by OG17 04:05:57 off-screen I mean 04:08:53 The centaur shoots an arrow of flame. The arrow of flame hits the bush. 04:08:56 _The bush appears unharmed. 04:08:59 yes 04:09:01 1. Why are hostiles shooting at each other 04:09:11 2. Aren't bushes supposed to be inflammable 04:09:42 sorear: would you file what has just happened? 04:10:00 seems to feature as a multiple-bug 04:10:01 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 04:12:44 What's the syntax for a preformatted monospaced block in mantis? 04:12:58 
04:13:03
04:14:50 sorear: in trunk or in 0.6? 04:15:10 0.6-rc4 04:15:25 the second thing is the normal message if you happen to do 0 damage, no matter if the victim is vulnerable or not 04:15:40 it was fixed in trunk just yesterday 04:18:11 I think that 0-damage fire attacks not affecting bushes is a bug. 04:18:36 Anyways two further buggish behaviors occurred as a result; probably something in my ticket is still valid. 04:18:42 yes 04:19:44 you need at least 9 damage to have a non-zero chance of setting bushes on fire 04:21:00 Centaur shoots arrows of flame at bush, fails to ignite (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1167) by sorear 04:30:57 unreal's game: 04:30:58 Your orc knight hits the orc warrior with a runed orcish halberd! 04:30:58 The orc warrior hits your orc knight with a runed orcish trident! 04:30:58 _Your orc knight is killed! 04:31:06 Isn't Okawaru supposed to dislike this? 04:31:24 Was the knight enslaved? 04:31:28 yes 04:31:46 enslavement is considered to be a form of confusion 04:31:47 This could be fallout from the recentish change to make enslaved monsters count as confused for XP crediting 04:32:03 not that recent, it was there for several major versions 04:32:05 sorear: ah, seems like an oversight on that front. 04:35:41 -!- ixtli has joined ##crawl-dev 04:39:04 -!- ixtli_ has joined ##crawl-dev 04:39:18 are enslaved monsters really your "allies", though? 04:39:28 it's more that they hate you and you hate them, but they can't do anything about it 04:40:01 They are your temporary allies. 04:40:30 they just do what you force them to do, despite being hostile to you 04:40:54 a temporary ally is for example someone summoned 04:41:24 kilobyte: okay, but you could still argue that Okawaru's principle applies to enslaved monsters. 04:41:48 it's more like a ring of conflict 04:45:53 that idea to make corpses from Twisted Resurrection self-assemble into abominations: it is obvious we need to allow upgrading existing abominations with extra corpses, since you'd have to micromanage piles otherwise -- but what with joining xx into X? 04:46:17 are X that much better than xx? 04:46:25 yiuf's chaos staff is fun to use :) 04:46:27 I cannot say -- never used it. 04:46:30 er wrong window 04:47:33 -!- ixtli has quit [Quit: ixtli] 04:47:34 -!- ixtli_ is now known as ixtli 04:47:36 myuzinn: definitely! Meeting Yiuf is a serious boost for any staves user. 05:02:57 kilobyte, or you could die randomly when using the staff :) 05:03:14 kilobyte, berserking an ogre = bye bye 05:04:16 -!- ortoslon has joined ##crawl-dev 05:05:40 x are completely worthless 05:08:22 I wasn't even a staves user 05:08:25 just thought it'd be fun 05:08:27 and it was! 05:08:32 until an orc warrior got beserked :p 05:30:18 -!- xardas-3 has joined ##crawl-dev 05:32:11 -!- ortoslon has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:32:19 -!- ortoslon has joined ##crawl-dev 05:36:01 -!- Morg0th has joined ##crawl-dev 05:36:40 hello, I'm trying to launch crawl on Gentoo amd64, I had to add a few includes at the source to make it compile, and now just after the character is created (after I choose the race, class and weapon) the game just ends like if nothing happened. gdb returns me "Program exited with code 0377." but I can't get any backtrace. can you help me please? 05:43:58 -!- ortoslon has quit [Read error: No route to host] 05:45:49 -!- ortoslon has joined ##crawl-dev 05:51:34 ok I finaly figured it out, it couldn't create the savefile because the dir wasn't created so it called end(-1); in files.cc 05:52:09 good 05:52:48 -!- Morg0th has left ##crawl-dev 06:06:34 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 06:29:44 -!- by has joined ##crawl-dev 06:33:47 -!- xardas-3 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:34:37 _The tide is released from Ilsuiw's call. 06:34:51 this happened after I return to Shoals:5 after a long time 06:35:05 bug? 06:35:11 -!- xardas-3 has joined ##crawl-dev 06:47:01 by: The message should probably be suppressed, yes 06:47:20 dpeg: Morg0th was trying to build b26 :P 06:48:00 There is a shaft here. You open the jelly like a pillowcase!!! You kill the jelly! Okawaru accepts your kill. Something appears at your feet! Okawaru grants you a gift! A shaft opens up in the floor! 06:48:14 _20 steel sling bullets {god gift} falls through the shaft. 06:55:01 The green draconian knight breathes poison at itself. 06:55:04 is this reported? 06:57:41 by: No 06:57:58 I saw similar behaviour by a mottled drac knight 06:58:01 @??draconian knight 06:58:02 green draconian knight (10d) | Speed: 10 | HD: 16 | Health: 96-160 | AC/EV: 12/12 | Damage: 15 | Flags: evil, spellcaster, cold-blooded | Res: 06magic(85), 03poison | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 2519 | Sp: b.cold, b.draining, animate dead, teleport self / b.fire, b.cold, cantrip, b.lightning, b.draining, teleport self / b.fire, pain, invisibility, animate dead, blink / pain, b.fire, blink / pain, throw flame, 07:00:52 greensnark: that Ilsuiw tide message didn't come right away when I entered, but a while later 07:01:28 maybe its duration isn't caught up in update_level (or whatever it's called)? 07:01:32 by: Strange, did she recast it outside LOS? She isn't supposed to 07:01:43 by: It's an enchantment on Ilsuiw 07:01:43 she might have, I don't know 07:03:24 draconians breathing at themselves (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1168) by rob 07:03:34 -!- ortoslon has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:03:49 maybe ENCH_TIDE isn't handled in monsters::timeout_enchantments? 07:04:18 yes, looks like it 07:05:06 it's strange that timing out isn't the default case there 07:06:34 Yes, that's a bug 07:06:38 Thanks 07:15:46 -!- xardas-3 has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.8/20100214235838]] 07:17:36 03greensnark * r4f61c08edc34 10/crawl-ref/source/monster.cc: Timeout call-tide enchantment when returning to Ilsuiw's level (rob). 07:19:36 03greensnark * rb98e291e80b1 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-data.h: Make anacondas amphibious (dpeg). 07:23:09 Oh hm 07:24:44 03greensnark * rb8cf62f9c0ba 10/crawl-ref/CREDITS.txt: Correct name in credits (Sophie Hamilton). 07:28:15 -!- xardas-3 has joined ##crawl-dev 07:30:53 Hello. 07:31:02 Look a due! 07:31:07 No, not real! 07:32:38 -!- ortoslon has joined ##crawl-dev 07:34:28 Evening due on the grass 07:36:09 -!- aslakkar_ has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:36:18 -!- Keskitalo has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:36:22 -!- zenna has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:40:34 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:46:29 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 07:52:53 -!- Keskitalo has joined ##crawl-dev 07:54:03 Hey Eino. 07:54:40 Keskitalo!!! 07:54:46 The Finns are back. 07:55:44 Looks like the server's screens got wiped or something. 07:55:47 Cheers. :) 08:03:23 -!- MarvinPA has quit [] 08:15:56 -!- ortoslon has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:17:56 -!- zenna has joined ##crawl-dev 08:20:22 -!- ortoslon has joined ##crawl-dev 08:29:59 will new vestibule make it into 0.6 08:30:22 if it's in already, yes, otherwise probably no 08:30:36 maybe 0.6.1? but ask doy 08:30:52 Mu_: it's in trunk, all the rest is irrelevant :) 08:30:59 okay 08:31:13 Mu_: you once started a sprint-maps-with-subvaults project... did anything come out of that? 08:31:15 * greensnark wants 0.6 out so CDO will do trunk again :) 08:31:19 yes! 08:31:31 We're suffering from 0.6 oppression. 08:32:22 no. the current map is so complex it'd be tedious to break up, so i'll probably make a new map for it with subvaults in-mind when i get the chance 08:32:37 Mu_: oh, I was thinking of new maps =) 08:32:50 Mu_: need one for August! 08:32:56 okay ;-) 08:32:59 Mu_: No glass in the new map, I trust 08:33:06 :P 08:33:16 Liches named greensnark behind glass around every corner. 08:33:24 i was thinking of making it a real miniaturized version of crawl, with little versions of the branches with the runes in them ;p 08:33:25 "Hey, another lich named greensnark!" 08:33:31 Mu_: cool! 08:33:41 Mu_: don't say too much in public :) 08:33:47 Mu_: Would you require the runes to get the orb? :) 08:34:05 ;p 08:34:10 could be done 08:34:12 Creating arbitrary runes will need level builder changes, but it's worth doing 08:34:22 my sprint win was a little disappointing because I didn't even have to visit the parts I didn't know 08:34:31 by: how did you do it? 08:34:43 dig and apport? 08:34:49 yes 08:35:03 syllogism corrupted the map to grab orb :P 08:35:06 but I could have gone through Lom's chamber also -- he had wandered 08:35:13 just wanted to avoid the miasma 08:35:31 greensnark: Sprint is such a great proof of concept 08:35:32 but there was no need to say visit the lernaen hydra 08:36:04 syllogism also lrd/dug around the border 08:36:17 The original map is not perfect, but it's very well done. 08:36:20 mine was an honest win :) 08:36:51 apart from the orb grab, maybe 08:37:02 Sprint is great, and the original map is pretty cool 08:37:15 Like the place where you have a bunch of unseen horrors and a fog generator to show them 08:37:25 Lots of neat tactics and attention to detail 08:37:31 yeah 08:37:31 yes 08:37:38 some of this is accidental, I think -- 0.5 didn't have fog revealing unseen horrors 08:37:55 though i didn't like the eyeball room 08:38:07 He definitely used the fog on purpose for the centaur room. 08:38:13 Mu_: it provides a choice... 08:38:52 the 0.6 noise system also makes it harder than with 0.5 I think 08:38:54 the hydra with the eye is evil 08:39:02 by: yes, more monsters wake up 08:39:06 by: Yes, everything wakes up fast 08:39:25 I haven't played enough Sprint though :) 08:39:37 Once I die a few times I go do something else, it's a Crawl reflex :) 08:39:55 !gamesby . Sprint 08:39:55 greensnark has played 27 games, between 20100301 and 20100320, won 0, high score 6727, total score 9695, total turns 4232, total time 0:45:02. 08:40:05 less than an hour! 08:40:17 !gamesby dpeg Sprint 08:40:17 dpeg has played 226 games, between 20100228 and 20100304, won 2 (0.9%), high score 284980, total score 905519, total turns 67963, total time 12:10:46. 08:40:22 Wow :P 08:40:29 ;) 08:40:30 !gamesby . Sprint 08:40:30 by has played 331 games, between 20100228 and 20100325, won 1 (0.3%), high score 278940, total score 516543, total turns 125431, total time 18:11:01. 08:40:37 I got obsessed with the TrHu's. 08:41:14 !won * Sprint 08:41:15 No games for * (Sprint). 08:41:26 !lg * sprint ktyp=winning s=char 08:41:25 23 games for * (ktyp=winning): 5x SpEn, 3x SpAs, 3x TrBe, 3x SpSt, 2x TrHu, 2x SpPa, 1x DEFE, 1x KoAs, 1x DDBe, 1x DEEE, 1x HaPa 08:41:32 no MD win, yet! 08:41:46 by: You could be the first :) 08:41:54 The Pa wins are cheating :) 08:42:14 !lg * sprint s=char / win 08:42:14 23/16730 games for *: 5/1468x SpEn [0.34%], 3/1387x TrBe [0.22%], 3/1199x SpAs [0.25%], 1/560x DEFE [0.18%], 0/551x MDCK [0.00%], 0/502x SpCK [0.00%], 0/441x DSBe [0.00%], 3/381x SpSt [0.79%], 0/333x VpCK [0.00%], 0/331x MfCr [0.00%], 0/329x TrCK [0.00%], 2/311x TrHu [0.64%], 0/267x OgBe [0.00%], 0/265x SETm [0.00%], 1/253x DDBe [0.40%], 0/247x VpAs [0.00%], 0/244x DESu [0.00%], 0/242x MiBe [0.00%... 08:43:01 MfCr is one that could be won honestly 08:43:13 and any berserker 08:43:15 yes 08:43:18 also any As 08:45:01 !lm * sprint uniq=lom lobon s=char 08:45:01 11 milestones for * (uniq=lom lobon): 4x SpPa, 3x DDBe, 1x HECr, 1x DSBe, 1x SpAs, 1x HaPa 08:45:37 did you know that a hydra is faster than a hasted player in shallow water? 08:45:53 !lm * sprint uniq=Lom Lobon / win 08:45:53 2/11 milestones for * (uniq=Lom Lobon): N=2/11 (18.18%) 08:46:13 Only 2 characters killed Lom and took Orb :P 08:46:16 ??pain 08:46:16 pain[1/2]: L1 necro spell, exclusive to the Book of Necromancy. Inflicts 1hp non-fatal damage on the caster. Does 1d(4 + pow/5) damage, with a limit of 100 power, and bypasses AC - but checks MR and only affects those without life protection. 08:46:22 ??pain[2] 08:46:23 pain[2/2]: Brand which inflicts 1d(necromancy skill) extra damage on necro+1 out of 8 successful hits. Does not affect those with rneg (demons, undead, shadow dragons, death drakes, Daevas). Available as a temp brand (Excruciating Wounds - L5 ench/necro; Unlife) but not affixable. (For the record, a monster's necromancy skill is HD/3, HD/2 if undead.) 08:46:24 @??hydra 08:46:24 hydra (09D) | Speed: 10 (swim: 60%) | HD: 13 | Health: 39-104 | AC/EV: 0/5 | Damage: 18 per head | Flags: amphibious | Res: 06magic(52), 03poison | Chunks: 09poisonous | XP: 1214. 08:46:45 Yes, swim: 60% and movement delay in shallow water will do it 08:47:08 Lernaen hydra taught me the hard way 08:47:11 Hydra + swamp = <3 08:47:27 !lm rob uniq=the lernaean hydra 08:47:28 No milestones for rob (uniq=the lernaean hydra). 08:47:35 !lm rob uniq=~lernaean hydra 08:47:36 No milestones for rob (uniq=~lernaean hydra). 08:47:38 Sprint? 08:47:43 Or did you meet it in Crawl 08:47:57 !lg . sprint uniq=~lernaen 08:47:57 Unknown selector: uniq 08:48:01 !lg . sprint killer=~lernaen 08:48:01 No games for by (killer=~lernaen). 08:48:04 !lg . sprint killer=~Lernaen 08:48:04 lm 08:48:04 No games for by (killer=~Lernaen). 08:48:10 Oh, you died? 08:48:11 I was killed, though 08:48:25 !hs . sprint char=defe -2 08:48:26 74. rob the Scorcher (L12 DEFE), worshipper of Vehumet, blasted by a fire giant (bolt of fire) on Sprint on 2010-03-01, with 23265 points after 4407 turns and 1:26:32. 08:48:26 !lg rob sprint s=ckiller 08:48:26 331 games for rob: 84x an ogre, 67x Ijyb, 31x Sigmund, 23x a centaur warrior, 20x leaving, 17x a giant amoeba, 12x a demonic crawler, 10x draining, 10x a rock troll, 7x Sonja, 6x curare, 5x acid, 5x pois, 4x an elephant slug, 3x a Lorocyproca, 2x spore, 2x a jelly, 2x a ynoxinul, 2x the 27-headed Lernaean hydra, 1x a fire giant, 1x a neqoxec, 1x a hydra, 1x an Executioner, 1x a small abomination, ... 08:48:30 !hs . sprint char=defe -3 08:48:31 73. rob the Destroyer (L12 DEFE), worshipper of Vehumet, slain by the 27-headed Lernaean hydra on Sprint on 2010-03-24, with 19491 points after 4637 turns and 0:55:22. 08:48:45 !lg * sprint max=xl 08:48:46 16743. syllogism the Acrobat (L15 SpPa), worshipper of The Shining One, slain by a 12-headed hydra on Sprint on 2010-03-01, with 76538 points after 18218 turns and 1:20:14. 08:49:10 !lg * sprint s=god / win 08:49:10 23/16744 games for *: 1/9785x [0.01%], 5/3108x Trog [0.16%], 2/1200x Lugonu [0.17%], 0/788x Xom [0.00%], 2/483x The Shining One [0.41%], 4/480x Makhleb [0.83%], 0/202x Yredelemnul [0.00%], 5/197x Sif Muna [2.54%], 2/192x Okawaru [1.04%], 0/77x Elyvilon [0.00%], 0/71x Vehumet [0.00%], 2/46x Zin [4.35%], 0/37x Beogh [0.00%], 0/33x Fedhas [0.00%], 0/27x Kikubaaqudgha [0.00%], 0/17x Cheibriados [0.00... 08:49:19 would higher XL gain make sprint too easy? 08:49:51 probably 08:50:01 also, is XL actually slower than skills, or do you just tend to be more specialised than in a normal game? 08:54:14 I think it's normal rules, only uniformly accelerated. So more specialisation, I guess. 09:10:31 -!- by has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 09:15:04 -!- purge has joined ##crawl-dev 09:24:24 -!- xardas-3 has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.8/20100214235838]] 09:31:09 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 09:34:56 -!- ogaz has joined ##crawl-dev 09:49:03 -!- Mu_ has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:49:06 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 10:18:59 -!- ortoslon has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:38:53 -!- Henzell has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:39:52 -!- Henzell has joined ##crawl-dev 10:41:50 -!- ogaz has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:42:15 -!- ogaz has joined ##crawl-dev 10:43:41 -!- Henzell has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:44:14 -!- Henzell has joined ##crawl-dev 10:55:22 !lg * s=crace / win o=%.n 10:55:36 2375/574698 games for *: 81/4487x Deep Dwarf [1.81%], 64/6002x Centaur [1.07%], 18/1725x Hill Dwarf [1.04%], 52/7342x Halfling [0.71%], 75/10857x Naga [0.69%], 315/46386x Mountain Dwarf [0.68%], 153/23698x Hill Orc [0.65%], 22/3547x Gnome [0.62%], 67/11117x Demigod [0.60%], 139/23494x Minotaur [0.59%], 75/13960x Troll [0.54%], 142/27330x Merfolk [0.52%], 58/11954x Ghoul [0.49%], 48/10380x Ogre [0.... 10:55:53 !lg * cv=0.6-a s=crace / win o=%.n 10:55:57 151/36735 games for * (cv=0.6-a): 10/515x Halfling [1.94%], 5/391x Ghoul [1.28%], 6/505x Deep Dwarf [1.19%], 8/680x Demigod [1.18%], 2/254x Centaur [0.79%], 9/1198x Sludge Elf [0.75%], 17/2583x Spriggan [0.66%], 8/1257x Merfolk [0.64%], 8/1425x Ogre [0.56%], 13/2587x High Elf [0.50%], 7/1528x Vampire [0.46%], 3/737x Troll [0.41%], 4/1016x Minotaur [0.39%], 5/1284x Naga [0.39%], 6/1622x Kobold [0.3... 10:56:04 dpeg: ^^ :P 10:56:17 Ha now the best species :P 10:56:28 maybe it's only played by good people 10:56:41 Ssh, don't inject sanity into this discussion 10:57:05 !lg * win cv=0.6-a crace=Ha s=name 10:57:05 10 games for * (win cv=0.6-a crace=Ha): 3x hyperbolic, 1x Vandal, 1x heteroy, 1x Cryptic, 1x Omniguy, 1x Yavar, 1x N78291, 1x pointless 10:57:15 why is centaur winrate so high? 10:57:23 Mostly very good players on Ha win 10:57:34 ogaz: for Ce it looks like satistical fluctuation 10:57:36 *statistical 10:57:41 there were two wins, that doesn't really say a lto 10:57:42 *lot 10:57:44 -!- DrPraetor has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:57:48 no, I was talking about overall 10:57:51 ah 10:57:55 they're second overall behind dd 10:58:04 !lg * win Ce s=name 10:58:04 64 games for * (win Ce): 11x Stabwound, 8x 78291, 5x mikee, 4x modargo, 4x Jeff, 2x rob, 2x eyhung, 2x ogaz, 1x Kalma, 1x ekiM, 1x ekaterin, 1x doy, 1x b0rsuk, 1x ebarrett, 1x Atomjack, 1x elliptic, 1x rgould, 1x AuditDaFed, 1x aurelian, 1x Iaido, 1x hercelf, 1x hyperbolic, 1x coolrobin, 1x abcde, 1x xyblor, 1x Cyrus, 1x Radicchio, 1x Pacra, 1x Grivan, 1x pointless, 1x Grimm, 1x Kjoery, 1x undermi... 10:58:11 the best players <3 centaurs 10:58:12 maybe greensnark was right all along about ranged combat being broken 10:58:22 !lg * win Ce s=sk 10:58:22 64 games for * (win Ce): 14x Axes, 13x Unarmed Combat, 11x Staves, 8x Fighting, 5x Long Blades, 4x Bows, 2x Maces & Flails, 1x Summonings, 1x Conjurations, 1x Polearms, 1x Necromancy, 1x Crossbows, 1x Enchantments, 1x Throwing 10:58:35 Ce are liked more for speed and robustness, not for ranged combat (yet) 10:58:38 except most people don't play centaurs that actually use projectiles 10:58:40 yes 10:59:01 !lg * s=sk / win o=%.n 10:59:11 2375/574701 games for *: 1/21x Divinations [4.76%], 63/2337x Staves [2.70%], 51/3693x Shields [1.38%], 204/14932x Long Blades [1.37%], 421/36421x Axes [1.16%], 90/9357x Maces & Flails [0.96%], 153/16975x Polearms [0.90%], 199/31716x Conjurations [0.63%], 148/24604x Dodging [0.60%], 5/893x Slings [0.56%], 248/45925x Unarmed Combat [0.54%], 32/6552x Evocations [0.49%], 42/10046x Ice Magic [0.42%], 4... 10:59:21 greensnark: is o= a new command as well? 10:59:31 also, apparently divinations really were broken :P 10:59:35 !lg * s=name / god=xom o=%.n 10:59:39 ogaz: Yes 10:59:39 15038/574701 games for *: 1/1x Bwank [100.00%], 1/1x Freak [100.00%], 6/6x Crackerjak [100.00%], 1/1x dragynwulf [100.00%], 1/1x joosmasta [100.00%], 1/1x clumsy [100.00%], 1/1x 11gernez [100.00%], 1/1x Tramal [100.00%], 2/2x Saro [100.00%], 5/5x falsemessiah [100.00%], 1/1x Thug [100.00%], 1/1x ghurka [100.00%], 1/1x Stoic [100.00%], 1/1x ostronsas [100.00%], 1/1x Dimiras [100.00%], 1/1x klabby [... 10:59:40 only 21 people bothered to raise them highest 10:59:49 but but but highest winrate 11:00:04 and only 1 of them won 11:00:16 stop injecting sense into this discussion 11:00:36 !lg * s=name / god=xom o=%.n ?: den.n>30 11:00:38 !lg * winning v>0.5.2 race=de s=job 11:00:39 15038/574702 games for *: 1429/1433x Covenant [99.72%], 22/32x Ludiphor [68.75%], 29/55x tiddles [52.73%], 154/302x omniscient [50.99%], 68/144x bovril [47.22%], 48/102x qbert [47.06%], 57/126x josh [45.24%], 17/38x Arcane [44.74%], 19/43x Kou [44.19%], 283/653x Shivaasori [43.34%], 23/56x heteroy0 [41.07%], 17/43x tralala [39.53%], 43/109x cyborgemu [39.45%], 15/39x Peter [38.46%], 23/62x Aleph [... 11:00:39 Bad arg 's=job' - cannot summarise by job 11:00:48 !lg * winning v>0.5.2 race=de s=god 11:00:48 4 games for * (winning v>0.5.2 race=de): 2x Sif Muna, 1x Kikubaaqudgha, 1x Vehumet 11:00:58 Henzell doesn't subscribe to these newfangled "job" and "background" notions :P 11:01:06 fg 11:01:15 fg is species, no? :P 11:01:30 presumably 11:01:53 !lg * !CK s=name / god=xom o=%.n ?: den.n>30 11:02:08 2314/537480 games for * (!CK): 17/93x lilstinker [18.28%], 21/139x HorrorMuchShow [15.11%], 10/81x zooko [12.35%], 5/41x setrodox [12.20%], 10/92x mutarobin [10.87%], 17/163x raxohol [10.43%], 5/48x diablo [10.42%], 4/42x Kawakimi [9.52%], 30/322x scwizard [9.32%], 8/90x Beelze [8.89%], 8/90x erisdiscordia [8.89%], 37/456x greensnark [8.11%], 20/255x nate2 [7.84%], 6/80x enivid [7.50%], 8/119x Dan... 11:02:20 greensnark: is there an alternative name to ask for background? 11:02:22 Apparently rax really likes Xom when intoxicated 11:02:31 ais523: cls= or role= 11:03:02 !lg * s=role / win o=%.n 11:03:03 2375/574703 games for *: 65/5514x Healer [1.18%], 116/15140x Paladin [0.77%], 217/29591x Berserker [0.73%], 88/12239x Priest [0.72%], 78/11513x Ice Elementalist [0.68%], 63/9854x Venom Mage [0.64%], 84/14634x Gladiator [0.57%], 34/6020x Artificer [0.56%], 102/19724x Fire Elementalist [0.52%], 46/9952x Warper [0.46%], 39/8721x Summoner [0.45%], 42/9570x Hunter [0.44%], 283/66921x Fighter [0.42%], 5... 11:03:23 that's... not what I'd have expected 11:03:42 !lg * s=god / win o=%.n 11:03:48 2375/574703 games for *: 8/89x Jiyva [8.99%], 118/3478x Nemelex Xobeh [3.39%], 565/16757x Okawaru [3.37%], 186/6368x Vehumet [2.92%], 313/12847x Sif Muna [2.44%], 7/323x Fedhas [2.17%], 9/422x Cheibriados [2.13%], 43/2941x Kikubaaqudgha [1.46%], 191/15381x The Shining One [1.24%], 217/17890x Makhleb [1.21%], 44/4121x Zin [1.07%], 82/8143x Lugonu [1.01%], 61/6205x Elyvilon [0.98%], 269/30620x Trog ... 11:03:53 !lg * v>0.6.9 s=role / win o=%.n 11:03:53 1/414 games for * (v>0.6.9): 1/3x Artificer [33.33%], 0/7x Summoner [0.00%], 0/29x Enchanter [0.00%], 0/29x Venom Mage [0.00%], 0/27x Chaos Knight [0.00%], 0/21x Crusader [0.00%], 0/16x Paladin [0.00%], 0/14x Wizard [0.00%], 0/14x Assassin [0.00%], 0/14x Death Knight [0.00%], 0/12x Arcane Marksman [0.00%], 0/9x Necromancer [0.00%], 0/9x Monk [0.00%], 0/9x Gladiator [0.00%], 0/43x Berserker [0.00%]... 11:04:00 wait what? that was quite a typo 11:04:04 !lg * v>0.5.9 s=role / win o=%.n 11:04:04 !lg * role=he s=name 11:04:07 152/37152 games for * (v>0.5.9): 15/1248x Ice Elementalist [1.20%], 4/366x Thief [1.09%], 4/403x Reaver [0.99%], 6/655x Venom Mage [0.92%], 5/570x Summoner [0.88%], 6/700x Stalker [0.86%], 11/1594x Fire Elementalist [0.69%], 9/1327x Conjurer [0.68%], 5/752x Air Elementalist [0.66%], 11/1780x Wizard [0.62%], 8/1368x Necromancer [0.58%], 4/842x Hunter [0.48%], 9/1895x Enchanter [0.47%], 3/729x Gladi... 11:04:07 5514 games for * (role=he): 902x KiloByte, 120x jeykey, 92x heteroy, 88x sugah, 85x Stormfox, 75x oniyuri, 74x aori, 70x murklins, 61x mr0t, 54x Eir, 53x ekaterin, 51x jenius, 50x Lemuel, 46x crawlie, 45x Karagy, 44x 78291, 44x aurelian, 44x Archibald, 37x ziropiro, 36x noomx, 36x Keolah, 35x dpeg, 35x myuzinn, 35x Radicchio, 33x shane, 33x Tossi, 32x Lagus, 31x syllogism, 30x Chapayev, 30x Appoxi... 11:04:11 I want game from 0.6-alpha and later 11:04:15 !lg * winning role=he s=name 11:04:15 65 games for * (winning role=he): 10x Stabwound, 7x 78291, 5x mikee, 3x aurelian, 2x rob, 2x Jeff, 2x futile, 2x modargo, 1x by, 1x ekiM, 1x heteroy, 1x Temoid, 1x dpeg, 1x Errol1, 1x ekaterin, 1x Chigusa, 1x codrus, 1x itsmu, 1x Practice, 1x rgould, 1x myuzinn, 1x ogaz, 1x greensnark, 1x Butch, 1x hyperbolic, 1x Iaido, 1x Keskitalo, 1x xyblor, 1x cbus, 1x omniscient, 1x senche, 1x Cyrus, 1x bmacd... 11:04:16 dpeg, thinking of implementing more body-slot facets: wings, tail, and maybe stinger? 11:04:23 ais523: there's your reason 11:04:35 also, why is IE doing so well? 11:04:42 because IE is really good 11:04:47 ogaz: I imagine the best players will be on /all/ the top-win leaderboards 11:04:50 I thought it was the TrIE in tournament 11:04:57 oh, that too 11:05:18 there was a TrIE tournament? 11:05:35 ais523: TrIE was a Nemelex Choice combo in 2010 tourney 11:05:39 !lg * win Trie s=name 11:05:40 8 games for * (win Trie): 1x hayenne, 1x Grimm, 1x 78291, 1x KiloByte, 1x trucutru, 1x mikee, 1x MadDasher, 1x Hax 11:05:45 ais523: stabwound had a 6-game CeHe streak once upon a time, I think because he thought it was the combo most likely to get him to temple 11:06:06 And when he got bored of CeHe and started a different character he promptly bit it :) 11:06:16 !lg * winning !IE v>0.5.9 s=race 11:06:16 137 games for * (winning !IE v>0.5.9): 18x Spriggan, 17x Demonspawn, 10x High Elf, 10x Halfling, 8x Ogre, 8x Sludge Elf, 7x Mummy, 7x Demigod, 7x Vampire, 6x Deep Dwarf, 5x Merfolk, 5x Kobold, 4x Ghoul, 4x Minotaur, 4x Deep Elf, 3x Troll, 3x Mountain Dwarf, 3x Naga, 2x Human, 2x Kenku, 2x Centaur, 1x Purple Draconian, 1x Yellow Draconian 11:06:32 so why are trolls not /anywhere/ on that list, if it was TrIE that was doing it? 11:06:40 must have been a 0.5 tournamnet 11:06:41 >0.5.9 11:06:42 *tournament 11:06:44 greensnark: yep 11:06:44 it was 11:06:55 whereas it was 0.6 where they were dominating the leaderboard 11:07:07 I think it's funny that the most-won ogre is still OgFE 11:07:16 Oh, your original query was for 0.6, didn't notice 11:07:30 !lg * winning Og v>0.5.9 s=role 11:07:30 !lg . og win s=char 11:07:30 !lg * winning ie v>0.5.9 s=crace 11:07:31 8 games for * (winning Og v>0.5.9): 1x Artificer, 1x Stalker, 1x Venom Mage, 1x Air Elementalist, 1x Arcane Marksman, 1x Earth Elementalist, 1x Priest, 1x Enchanter 11:07:31 2 games for greensnark (og win): 1x OgIE, 1x OgFi 11:07:31 15 games for * (winning ie v>0.5.9): 3x High Elf, 3x Merfolk, 2x Naga, 2x Draconian, 1x Demonspawn, 1x Kobold, 1x Sludge Elf, 1x Demigod, 1x Ghoul 11:07:45 Oh right, I played as tsnark 11:07:51 ais523: no, I meant overall 11:07:56 ogaz: I know 11:07:57 !lg * winning ie v>0.5.9 s=name 11:07:58 15 games for * (winning ie v>0.5.9): 3x hyperbolic, 2x 78291, 2x moq, 1x trucutru, 1x MUMMY, 1x casmith789, 1x MarvinPA, 1x valrus, 1x syllogism, 1x clouded, 1x pointless 11:08:01 !lg * winning Og s=role 11:08:02 48 games for * (winning Og): 11x Fire Elementalist, 4x Berserker, 3x Fighter, 2x Air Elementalist, 2x Gladiator, 2x Ice Elementalist, 1x Stalker, 1x Necromancer, 1x Hunter, 1x Conjurer, 1x Venom Mage, 1x Reaver, 1x Summoner, 1x Healer, 1x Artificer, 1x Wanderer, 1x Wizard, 1x Assassin, 1x Crusader, 1x Transmuter, 1x Chaos Knight, 1x Paladin, 1x Death Knight, 1x Arcane Marksman, 1x Earth Elementali... 11:08:14 s=char is more compact 11:08:17 but then, the most common NAO death reason, weighted by score, is to newts 11:08:33 although that was a deliberate attempt to manipulate the leaderboard 11:08:38 I imagine much the same can happen with OgFE 11:08:47 !lm * s=rune / win 11:08:58 13896/27959 milestones for *: 2220/6376x serpentine [34.82%], 2060/6095x decaying [33.80%], 2212/4123x silver [53.65%], 1356/2393x slimy [56.67%], 1292/1728x demonic [74.77%], 632/1012x iron [62.45%], 507/802x bone [63.22%], 546/793x golden [68.85%], 436/723x abyssal [60.30%], 485/722x obsidian [67.17%], 491/712x icy [68.96%], 383/530x magical [72.26%], 388/521x fiery [74.47%], 380/518x glowing [7... 11:09:37 ah, does o= determine the sort order? 11:09:44 !lm * s=rune / win o=%.n 11:09:45 13896/27959 milestones for *: 1292/1728x demonic [74.77%], 388/521x fiery [74.47%], 380/518x glowing [73.36%], 378/518x dark [72.97%], 383/530x magical [72.26%], 491/712x icy [68.96%], 546/793x golden [68.85%], 485/722x obsidian [67.17%], 507/802x bone [63.22%], 632/1012x iron [62.45%], 436/723x abyssal [60.30%], 1356/2393x slimy [56.67%], 2212/4123x silver [53.65%], 2220/6376x serpentine [34.82%]... 11:09:53 Yes, if unspecified it uses the denominator count in desc order 11:10:02 !lm * s=nrune / win 11:10:10 -!- by has joined ##crawl-dev 11:10:14 ogaz: beautiful 11:10:33 !lg * s=urune / win 11:10:44 probably that makes more sense than lm for that sort of query 11:10:49 I bet nobody won with 14 runes... 11:10:52 oh oops 11:10:56 ais523: I did! 11:11:00 Lots of players win with 14 runes :P 11:11:05 greensnark: because? 11:11:11 because argh abysmal rune 11:11:12 The abyssal rune is a nuisance 11:11:16 because slime used to be not guaranteed 11:11:17 noone wants the abyssal rune, yeah. 11:11:23 doy: ah 11:11:27 137108/808659 milestones for *: 108787/753739x 0 [14.43%], 8634/22026x 1 [39.20%], 9591/14314x 3 [67.00%], 4004/10409x 2 [38.47%], 3267/4573x 4 [71.44%], 1194/1564x 5 [76.34%], 529/708x 6 [74.72%], 310/390x 7 [79.49%], 168/201x 8 [83.58%], 120/143x 9 [83.92%], 117/123x 15 [95.12%], 51/73x 10 [69.86%], 43/69x 12 [62.32%], 47/63x 11 [74.60%], 59/62x 16 [95.16%], 51/55x 14 [92.73%], 25/34x 13 [73.53%... 11:11:27 2375/574704 games for *: 49/570307x 0 [0.01%], 932/1533x 3 [60.80%], 4/812x 1 [0.49%], 600/776x 4 [77.32%], 1/413x 2 [0.24%], 203/249x 5 [81.53%], 240/243x 15 [98.77%], 71/81x 6 [87.65%], 54/60x 7 [90.00%], 50/53x 8 [94.34%], 51/51x 14 [100.00%], 37/39x 9 [94.87%], 27/28x 13 [96.43%], 21/23x 11 [91.30%], 21/21x 10 [100.00%], 14/15x 12 [93.33%] 11:11:29 I know players who go for the abyssal rune fourth 11:11:30 Slime not being guaranteed was fixed back in 0.1.x though 11:11:43 greensnark: that long ago? i thought it was at least 0.2/0.3 11:12:00 Oh, possible 11:12:13 It was pretty long ago, don't remember exactly when :) 11:12:51 Oh wow, it's in 0.4 changelog :P 11:12:59 That is not very long ago :P 11:13:19 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 11:13:36 anyway, that at least tells us that nobody's /died/ holding exactly 10 or 14 unique runes 11:13:43 I have :P 11:13:48 not on CAO or CDO you haven't 11:13:55 !lg . urune=14 11:13:55 1. greensnark the Swordmaster (L27 HuPa), worshipper of The Shining One, escaped with the Orb and 14 runes on 2007-11-18, with 2715778 points after 168043 turns and 21:29:39. 11:13:59 you might have collected and stashed them, but not holding them 11:14:13 Huh, I wonder how many my GhWn snaffled 11:14:21 I must have stashed, them 11:14:28 s/,// 11:14:30 !lg . nrune=14 11:14:30 1. ogaz the Conqueror (L27 GhAr), worshipper of Makhleb, escaped with the Orb and 14 runes on 2009-08-09, with 8264884 points after 160041 turns and 17:52:16. 11:14:33 !log . GhWn 11:14:33 12. greensnark, XL1 GhWn, T:11: Can't find morgue! 11:14:38 !log . GhWn Abyss 11:14:39 1. greensnark, XL27 GhWn, T:150958: http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/old/greensnark/morgue-greensnark-20080808-121459.txt 11:15:05 greensnark: I had the same thing to my ghouls which died in the abyss, had 14 runes stashed 11:15:13 that's 2 runes, not 14 11:15:24 ais523: Yeah, I wasn't carrying the others 11:15:31 also, there's something bizarre about doing a 15-runer with a ghoul, how would you find food? 11:15:36 .lst is gone though 11:15:44 ais523: Pan has lots of food 11:15:46 ais523: food is not an issue for ghouls 11:15:54 were there notes for found runes at that point? 11:15:56 I've run 3 or 4 ghouls through pan and never run out 11:16:04 ogaz: ah, ok 11:16:12 I did hang out in Pan long enough to pick up about 50 hp of rot though 11:16:18 Still, not a major issue 11:16:21 you can eat royal jellies, honeycombs, and meat rations 11:16:30 The major issue was the bloody Abyss boring me out of my gourd :P 11:16:40 yeah the rot's an issue, but on the other hand no torment 11:17:34 greensnark: still no progress on your game? 11:17:45 purge: No, haven't been playing :) 11:18:04 too busy playing nethack it seems from backlog! :P 11:18:11 slashem 11:18:36 purge: don't you dare mention slash'em, it causes people from all sides of the roguelike development community to burst out in fits of laughter 11:19:25 I haven't played Slash'EM in about 8 years :) 11:19:47 Only in your dreams? :) 11:19:49 I did win several games when I was looking for next-rl-after-NH 11:20:11 !lg src=rhf * s=urune / win 11:20:12 No games for joosa (src=rhf *) 11:20:14 But Slash'EM went into a ridiculous power spiral 11:20:24 ooo nice i never won because when i got to gehenna i had so much loot and stuff I got overwhelmed when i came back after a day or two 11:20:25 greensnark: I think that was deliberate :) 11:20:34 so i never played anymre 11:20:36 ah. 11:20:37 !lg joosa src=rhf s=urune / win 11:20:38 1/318 games for joosa (src=rhf): 0/308x 0 [0.00%], 0/3x 1 [0.00%], 0/3x 2 [0.00%], 0/3x 3 [0.00%], 1/1x 4 [100.00%] 11:20:45 hah. 11:20:59 You've died 3 times with 3 runes? 11:21:09 !lg joosa rhf urune=3 s=place 11:21:09 3 games for joosa (rhf urune=3): 1x Zot:2, 1x Zot:5, 1x Elf:7 11:21:13 more than 3, two were 10+ 11:21:18 :) 11:21:26 I am an excellent dier 11:21:38 that only shows how many runes you were carrying at the time 11:21:42 yeah 11:22:49 !lg * s=src / win 11:22:57 2375/574710 games for *: 2133/476107x cao [0.45%], 227/93107x cdo [0.24%], 15/5496x rhf [0.27%] 11:23:11 where is rhf? 11:23:12 Kalma keeps us up 11:23:20 !lg * cv>0.5 s=src / win 11:23:23 173/50558 games for * (cv>0.5): 172/50008x cdo [0.34%], 1/550x rhf [0.18%] 11:23:26 rhf has better win rate than cdo :) 11:23:29 !games rhf Kalma 11:23:42 Huh, what happened to cao there 11:23:43 I have no idea how this works :) 11:23:45 !lg * cv>0.5 s=src 11:23:45 50558 games for * (cv>0.5): 50008x cdo, 550x rhf 11:23:46 !won Kalma rhf 11:23:46 Kalma (rhf) has won 9 times in 88 games (10.23%): 1xCeCK 1xDDBe 1xDSFi 1xDrEE 1xHOPr 1xMDBe 1xMfTm 1xNaVM 1xSpAr 11:23:51 the win ratios to me impliy that 0.6 is easier than 0.5 11:23:51 Oh 11:23:53 greensnark: cao doesn't have cv>0.5 11:23:55 greensnark: there are no 0.6 wins on CAO 11:23:57 !lg * win cv>=0.5 s=src 11:23:58 1002 games for * (win cv>=0.5): 811x cao, 176x cdo, 15x rhf 11:24:01 or 0.6 losses, fwiw 11:24:02 !lg * win cv>=0.5 s=src / win 11:24:02 1002/1002 games for * (win cv>=0.5): 811/811x cao [100.00%], 176/176x cdo [100.00%], 15/15x rhf [100.00%] 11:24:04 ais523: no, better players play 0.6 11:24:11 !lg * cv>=0.5 s=src / win 11:24:13 Bleh 11:24:13 *0.6 is harder 11:24:17 1002/276268 games for * (cv>=0.5): 811/194074x cao [0.42%], 176/76698x cdo [0.23%], 15/5496x rhf [0.27%] 11:24:21 !lg * s=v / win 11:24:25 2375/574710 games for *: 266/112145x 0.5.2 [0.24%], 457/76942x 0.5.1 [0.59%], 237/75585x 0.4.5 [0.31%], 370/58580x 0.4.4 [0.63%], 315/48260x 0.3.4 [0.65%], 106/36623x 0.5 [0.29%], 125/32619x 0.2.7 [0.38%], 74/19805x 0.6.0-a1 [0.37%], 73/18058x 0.3.3 [0.40%], 62/17863x 0.1.7 [0.35%], 21/13400x 0.5-a [0.16%], 28/10430x 0.3.2 [0.27%], 22/9231x 0.4-a [0.24%], 44/8122x 0.6.0-a2 [0.54%], 33/6381x 0.6.0-... 11:24:28 0.6 is slightly harder 11:24:42 !lg * s=v / win o=%.n 11:24:42 2375/574710 games for *: 53/4363x 0.4.1 [1.21%], 38/4373x 0.4.3 [0.87%], 315/48260x 0.3.4 [0.65%], 370/58580x 0.4.4 [0.63%], 457/76942x 0.5.1 [0.59%], 5/882x 0.4.2 [0.57%], 44/8122x 0.6.0-a2 [0.54%], 33/6381x 0.6.0-rc [0.52%], 73/18058x 0.3.3 [0.40%], 125/32619x 0.2.7 [0.38%], 74/19805x 0.6.0-a1 [0.37%], 14/3985x 0.3 [0.35%], 62/17863x 0.1.7 [0.35%], 237/75585x 0.4.5 [0.31%], 16/5388x 0.2.4 [0.30%... 11:24:47 depending on class really 11:24:48 !lg Kalma rhf s=nrune 11:24:48 88 games for Kalma (rhf): 74x 0, 2x 15, 2x 3, 2x 1, 2x 7, 2x 2, 1x 5, 1x 9, 1x 4, 1x 16 11:25:08 !lg Kalma rhf s=nrune ktyp=winning 11:25:08 9 games for Kalma (rhf ktyp=winning): 2x 15, 2x 3, 1x 5, 1x 7, 1x 9, 1x 4, 1x 16 11:25:17 next question: what was so easy about 0.4.1? 11:25:27 0.4.1 had the skill training bug 11:25:30 skill bug, up to 10times normal skill growth 11:25:36 aha 11:25:55 /join ##git 11:26:19 !lg * s=v / win o=-%.n 11:26:20 2375/574712 games for *: 0/7x 0.2.6 [0.00%], 0/49x 0.3.5 [0.00%], 0/81x 0.2.2 [0.00%], 0/90x 0.2.3 [0.00%], 0/1664x 0.6.0-a0 [0.00%], 0/772x 0.6-a [0.00%], 5/3613x 0.3.1 [0.14%], 21/13400x 0.5-a [0.16%], 8/4205x 0.2.5 [0.19%], 266/112146x 0.5.2 [0.24%], 22/9231x 0.4-a [0.24%], 1/414x 0.7.0-a0 [0.24%], 2/780x 0.4 [0.26%], 28/10430x 0.3.2 [0.27%], 106/36623x 0.5 [0.29%], 16/5388x 0.2.4 [0.30%], 237/... 11:26:52 Apparently 0.6.0-a0 hit the sweet spot in difficulty 11:27:02 Did someone remove the orb of zot or something 11:27:20 beautiful 11:27:32 I'm clearly going to have to work more on my bot 11:27:42 0.5-a was probably Ivo doing his legendary i-can-startscum-more-than-anyone-in-teh-w0rld 11:27:44 it would be brilliant if it got more wins than humans on some version of Crawl 11:28:01 !lg * s=v / win o=-%.n ktyp!=quitting|leaving 11:28:02 2375/574713 games for *: 0/7x 0.2.6 [0.00%], 0/49x 0.3.5 [0.00%], 0/81x 0.2.2 [0.00%], 0/90x 0.2.3 [0.00%], 0/1664x 0.6.0-a0 [0.00%], 0/772x 0.6-a [0.00%], 5/3613x 0.3.1 [0.14%], 21/13400x 0.5-a [0.16%], 8/4205x 0.2.5 [0.19%], 266/112147x 0.5.2 [0.24%], 22/9231x 0.4-a [0.24%], 1/414x 0.7.0-a0 [0.24%], 2/780x 0.4 [0.26%], 28/10430x 0.3.2 [0.27%], 106/36623x 0.5 [0.29%], 16/5388x 0.2.4 [0.30%], 237/... 11:28:13 ais523: I don't think you understand what you are talking about. 11:28:14 ais523: Show us one win and you will be famous 11:28:20 yes, yes, I know 11:28:52 Crawl versions tend to get harder, not easier, too. 11:29:00 ogaz: ktyp!=winning|leaving should go to left of / 11:29:09 er, quitting|leaving 11:29:13 Whenever we remove some broken feature, that hurts bottability more than it hurts good players. 11:29:27 !lg * ktyp!=quitting|leaving s=v / win o=-%.n 11:29:28 dpeg: oh, I don't mean botting by bug abuse 11:29:28 Because / win ktyp!=quitting|leaving is redundant 11:29:40 2375/383328 games for * (ktyp!=quitting|leaving): 0/7x 0.2.6 [0.00%], 0/1233x 0.6.0-a0 [0.00%], 0/31x 0.3.5 [0.00%], 0/72x 0.2.2 [0.00%], 0/644x 0.6-a [0.00%], 0/85x 0.2.3 [0.00%], 8/3644x 0.2.5 [0.22%], 1/362x 0.7.0-a0 [0.28%], 2/717x 0.4 [0.28%], 5/1652x 0.3.1 [0.30%], 16/4820x 0.2.4 [0.33%], 21/5764x 0.5-a [0.36%], 62/16291x 0.1.7 [0.38%], 106/27673x 0.5 [0.38%], 237/53158x 0.4.5 [0.45%], 266/5... 11:29:43 makes sense 11:29:48 Highlight evasion value during the effects of a potion of agility (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1169) by ahpla 11:29:50 !lg * ktyp!=quitting|leaving s=v / win o=%.n 11:29:54 Nethack is much easier to bot, and they're practically nowhere. 11:29:56 2375/383329 games for * (ktyp!=quitting|leaving): 53/3825x 0.4.1 [1.39%], 38/3951x 0.4.3 [0.96%], 315/33230x 0.3.4 [0.95%], 457/48647x 0.5.1 [0.94%], 370/42355x 0.4.4 [0.87%], 5/755x 0.4.2 [0.66%], 33/5021x 0.6.0-rc [0.66%], 22/3498x 0.4-a [0.63%], 73/11641x 0.3.3 [0.63%], 44/7397x 0.6.0-a2 [0.59%], 28/4869x 0.3.2 [0.58%], 14/2613x 0.3 [0.54%], 74/15061x 0.6.0-a1 [0.49%], 125/26289x 0.2.7 [0.48%],... 11:30:02 probably a NetHack bot that was fully focused on pudding farming could ascend within a year by now, but nobody wants to try that as it isn't interesting 11:30:15 ais523: not sure i agree 11:30:25 the difficulty isn't in building up the necessary power 11:30:40 well, you'd need to focus on items for moving around 11:30:46 the difficulty is in things like routing across water, handling collecting the quest artifacts, doing castle mastermind, etc 11:30:48 yep 11:31:04 well, none of those jobs are individually very difficult in the abstract, the problem is combining them 11:31:09 right 11:31:14 also, none of those jobs are ones that have any analogue in Crawl 11:31:15 also tactical decisions and threat assessment, I'd guess 11:31:24 dpeg: LOL elbereth :P 11:31:26 dpeg: pudding farmers don't care 11:31:30 ais523: collecting quest artifacts -> collecting runes 11:31:30 greensnark: :) 11:31:57 if you're willing to abuse bugs, you can easily get millions of HP and MP in NetHack, guard against all applicable instadeaths, then your only fear is starvation 11:32:22 where "easily" means "with several days of pudding farming" 11:32:54 doy: most runes don't need anything "special" to get them; it's just normal play, except with substantially more monsters around 11:33:02 Where do you teach your bot what to do when two orbs of fire come into LOS? 11:33:16 dpeg: you run a simulation of all the things the orbs of fire could do, and all the things it could do 11:33:28 You will never write a bot, you are only talking. 11:33:30 that's substantially simpler, computationally speaking, then running a few moves of a chess game 11:33:47 the orbs of fire have what, about three options, allowing for the random AI? 11:33:51 ais523: really? 11:33:58 ais523: and how many options do you have? 11:34:22 let's see... eight move/fight directions, various spell casting (potentially, you'd want a bot to play melee to reduce the complexity), using items 11:34:29 maybe around 20, which is comparable to the number in chess 11:34:39 ais523: have you ever faces an orb? 11:34:42 Those things are deadly. 11:34:59 dpeg: being deadly makes the calculations easier, because if you do something wrong you die more quickly 11:35:12 I know from my experience with TAEB::AI::Planar that lichens were one of the hardest monsters to deal with 11:35:19 because they were really rubbish, and so hard to calculate 11:35:29 with an orb of fire, it dies quickly, you run, or you die quickly 11:35:42 orbs of fire don't die quickly 11:35:46 that's the thing 11:35:49 and you cannot run away 11:35:58 it can mutate you and kill you strategically 11:35:58 I meant "run" in the more general sense 11:36:24 dpeg: Crawl monsters use /strategy/? they have an AI (tactical behaviour), but it's all preplanned 11:36:50 make a bot to beat Sprint 11:36:53 At this point I'll just reserve judgment on ais523's bot until I see it play 11:36:56 preplanned? oO 11:36:56 A human will think: (1) speed? (2) corridor (perhaps dig one) (3) rF!! (4) summons (5) teleport if nothing else helps 11:37:00 greensnark: yes, and unfortunately that'll take years 11:37:06 these choices have to be made right away, otherwise you lose 11:37:22 dpeg: well, you have all the thinking time in the world, "right away" doesn't apply in a turn-based game 11:37:39 I am not sure you even understand the problem :) 11:37:45 perhaps 11:37:48 ais523: the thing is, i don't think you're going to be able to simulate far enough into the future to make that kind of decision correctly 11:38:02 ais523: Well, I think you're underestimating the difficulty of writing a Crawl bot considerably 11:38:06 doy: maybe; but humans must do it somehow, and I don't think they're guessing 11:38:19 greensnark: probably, but I have to try to prove to myself that it doesn't work 11:38:21 ais523: I'd love to be proven wrong, but I doubt I will be :) 11:38:32 part of the issue is that just fighting the interface is likely to take years 11:38:35 ais523: human chess players certainly don't calculate 20 moves in advance 11:38:41 and yet they're still demonstrably good 11:38:50 doy: yes they do, I've read a book written by one of them 11:38:50 (well, some probably do, but not most) 11:38:55 ais523: By all means submit patches that make the interface more consistent and easier for a bot to navigate 11:38:57 not in every position, but for a few of the main lines 11:39:10 As long as they don't worsen the scene for humans 11:39:15 greensnark: thanks for the offer, I'll look into it 11:40:09 maybe I'll focus on having it beat three orc knights with a level 4 wizard :) 11:40:22 as that's about the limit of my personal tactical skill 11:40:46 I'm pretty sure that beating 3 orc knights with a level 4 wizard is impossible 11:40:50 I guess the worst part for a bot is resource management: when to keep scrolls/potions, when to use them. 11:40:52 thats what i was thinking 11:41:00 ogaz: meph cloud and run screaming 11:41:07 Or just skip straight to step 2 11:41:08 thats not beating them though =p 11:41:09 You can abuse MC, but just yesterday I had an idea for how to prevent that. 11:41:11 ogaz: I tried it a while ago in response to an argument about whether meph was broken or not 11:41:14 greensnark: I assumed "beat" meant "win," not survive 11:41:27 one of them did actually die to hitting itself repeatedly 11:41:28 Well, presumably you level up and come back later :) 11:41:44 if you keep a monster confused long enough, it'll eventually commit suicide 11:41:47 Meph should be enough to take out orc knights 11:41:51 They're not very high HD 11:42:01 dpeg: I'm interested 11:42:03 But I wouldn't want to screw with them anyway at XL 4 11:42:09 And here is my idea: all confusion attempts (MC, confusion, confusing touch) should be resisted by Int (and nothing else). For monsters, we use HD, *but* spellcasters get a bonus depending on their best spell. 11:42:13 but you don't have very much mana at XL4, if you run out and get cornered you're dead 11:42:34 Oh, and monster intelligence could also provide a bonus. 11:42:35 ogaz: Yes, I wouldn't want to try to kill them, just get away 11:42:45 dpeg: hmm, interesting; mightn't that lead to NetHack endgame syndrome, where all the monsters are ignored except the spellcasters? 11:42:51 I want MC to work noticeably differently on orc vs orc sorcerer, say. 11:43:05 ais523: there's always animals/beasts, for example 11:43:10 they aren't all casters 11:43:15 ugh why is 3 card solitaire so hard! 11:43:24 dpeg: I don't know that resisting by intelligence is entirely fitting for meph though 11:43:28 On the player side, it would mean that Int gets a use for non-casters. 11:43:37 greensnark: I am willing to change the name :) 11:43:46 "Mind Fog" :) 11:43:54 That's from D&D :P 11:43:58 eeek! 11:44:03 Hehehe 11:44:22 my own thoughts on nerfing mephitic cloud were to make it more similar to a giant spore explosion; instantaneous rather than cloudy, very very noisy, and (purely for flavour reasons) destroys food 11:44:29 greensnark: in D&D, mind fog reduces spell resistance 11:44:36 it's more like Crawl's scroll of vulnerability 11:44:46 ais523: Nobody said it has to have the same effects, I was just throwing out a name for a confusing cloud :P 11:44:56 yep 11:45:04 What does "Mephitic" mean? 11:45:06 Crawl's bad enough at confusing NetHack players by making robes body armour 11:45:08 Also my entire D&D knowledge is from OOTS which isn't exactly canon 11:45:25 dpeg, noxious 11:45:43 ais523, what are robes considered in NH 11:45:50 Cryp71c: cloaks 11:45:51 robes are like cloaks 11:45:53 Did I mention I got "Don't split the party" <3 11:45:55 they give a bonus to casting 11:45:57 ..so what are cloaks? 11:46:05 are they also cloaks? 11:46:08 yes 11:46:08 Cryp71c: over-body armour 11:46:10 Slash'EM made robes body armour, right 11:46:13 wierd 11:46:19 I think it did anyway 11:46:24 * miasmic: of noxious stench from atmospheric pollution 11:46:29 yes it did 11:47:03 that's it defining mephitic 11:47:10 greensnark: of the stats, Int is clearly the best one to use against confusing attempts. 11:47:13 clearly, if we go via definitions, mephitic cloud should really produce miasma 11:47:35 therefore, going by definitions is probably not the right way to go 11:47:52 dpeg: Sure, if we rename the spell 11:48:23 some sort of level 8 air/conj/necro spell that produced 3x3 miasma cloud would be cool 11:48:36 Did I mention that my proposal includes axing of Clarity? 11:48:38 Summon death drakes 11:48:54 ogaz: would it also be useful? for a level 8 three-school spell, you could probably just kill whatever you wanted to miasma at 11:49:03 ais523: I have no idea 11:49:12 dpeg: Aw, clarity is rather nice :) 11:49:16 Especially for Mu :P 11:49:20 ais523: but it would have to be that high since I'm pretty sure that's better than freezing cloud 11:49:32 greensnark: you can get the pineapply in return! With explosions!! 11:49:47 actually, it might not be so useless; spells that can be cast before a combat starts are orders of magnitude better than spells you use during combat 11:50:01 dpeg: I think pineapples were promised for resist slow, you need to make more concessions to axe clarity 11:50:03 because the first doesn't prevent you using whatever other strategy you wanted to use in combat, the second does 11:50:14 greensnark: rSlow <--> turtels :) 11:50:20 Nono 11:50:23 yesyes 11:50:30 I don't remember that :P 11:50:30 greensnark: at this rate, you're going to end up making a trove entirely full of fruit 11:50:36 greensnark: I have the logse! 11:50:44 and the players will love it, sultanas for the fedhasites and pineapples for the troglodytes 11:50:54 If we're axing clarity I demand lobsters and turtle shells as items 11:51:08 Turtle shells you can get, no problem. 11:51:19 and lobsters 11:51:35 Rings of Int+6 would be weak substitutes for clarity in my proposal. 11:51:41 But clarity is actually a fairly interesting amulet rght right now 11:51:49 greensnark: you think so? 11:51:52 What with the autozerk protection and all 11:52:10 And for species like Mu with no other way to beat conf 11:52:19 Fuck the mummy. 11:52:39 Int is already a good stat; it seems unnecessary to make it stronger :P 11:53:02 int is a good stat for some chars, and useless for others; I suppose it depends on whether you think that's a bad thing or not 11:53:24 greensnark: It would also lose something. Of the stats, Int is the only that's working decently, but we figured it's not ideal that Int has zero meaning for non-casters, apart from stat death (which we'll remove). 11:53:57 I think it's fine that Int is less relevant for non casters 11:54:06 So if you're confused for 12 turns with Int 3 but only for 1 turn with Int 25, that's good to me. 11:54:18 greensnark: "less" = "not" 11:54:46 A non-caster could still work around lack of Int, using !healing. And heck, the "clarity. 11:54:57 But you won't get pineapples and turtle shells! 11:55:07 Pineapples were already promised :P 11:55:15 Can't take back pineapples :P 11:55:41 see, if you were playing NetHack you could just rename your slime molds to pineapples 11:55:53 greensnark: promised for axing clarity :) 11:55:54 in Crawl, you could go with pineapple pizza thouhg 11:55:55 *though 11:56:34 dpeg: clarity came up today, pineapple guarantee long ago :P 12:07:58 the int boost to beat confusion would be interesting if it plateaus off quickly, and if low int extends confusion duration over the current durations 12:08:09 i.e. we shouldn't weaken sources of confusion for high int characters 12:08:18 that would imply spoiler knowledge as to what the optimal int value was 12:08:23 Monster resistible enchantment is already pretty useless for high end characters 12:08:38 ais523: int is already coloured red at low levels 12:08:44 dpeg, I took all 4 of my patches and collapsed them into one patch, I wasn't sure if that would make anything easier for whoever commits it, but it also resolves whitespace and conflict issues the older patches had. 12:08:57 In any case, its on the mantis item. 12:09:06 greensnark: oh, you meant the new value would be rather lower than the old-fashioned 8? 12:09:21 I don't understand the question 12:10:23 greensnark: even an int of, say, 5 is still coloured white rather than red 12:10:35 Yes I know 12:10:35 ais523: that's not spoiler knowledge 12:10:37 and Crawl folklore (plus the tutorial) has it that you raise your int to 8 to avoid statdeath 12:10:49 Colours can be changed if needed :P 12:10:56 The manual can be added to, etc. 12:11:00 doy: really? I consider even axes being better than blades to be spoiler knowledge, as long as the game doesn't say it 12:11:11 also, the fact that ogres hit hard but are vulnerable to various things 12:11:13 ais523: well, you're in the minority then 12:11:25 these are things you can figure out through normal play 12:11:36 Yes, yeesh 12:11:40 doy: you can figure all NetHack's spoilers out through normal play, too, that doesn't mean anyone does 12:11:42 Every game has a learning curve, or there's little point :P 12:11:46 ais523: not really 12:12:15 since when are axes better than blades =p 12:12:17 doy: in theory, yes, although you have to be rather good at guessing 12:12:33 ais523: so what you really mean is, "not really" 12:12:35 eith: They're more available 12:12:43 true enough i suppose 12:12:46 It's easier to get hold of a good axe than a good long blade, that's about it 12:12:48 eith: if you go 2-handed they're definitely better since great sword is trash 12:13:01 doy: it's similar in Crawl, though; you need to go ages through the game before you reach an int-drain attack 12:13:07 "in theory yes, although you have to be rather good at guessing" is not "through normal play" 12:13:19 fun fact: in trunk, a double sword held 2-handed is better than a great sword 12:13:20 pretty much all my Crawl deaths past Temple, I attribute to lack of spoilers 12:13:27 int drain kills are quite rare 12:13:32 ... 12:13:43 doy: things like not knowing which monsters are more dangerous than others 12:13:51 ais523: and this is what playing the game is for 12:13:52 the only way you can figure out that through normal play is by dying 12:13:54 and that's not very efficient 12:13:55 right 12:13:58 you figure that out through normal play quite quickly 12:14:02 early-game, it doesn't matter too mcuh 12:14:03 ais523: The only way to learn a game is by playing it :P 12:14:04 *much 12:14:13 but you won't reach the late-game often enough to tell 12:14:34 ais523: you will once you start learning the early game well enough 12:14:37 that's how "learning" works 12:14:38 greensnark: that's definitely false in general, and may even be false for Crawl in particular 12:14:38 that's okay because there's not much that really stands out(other than uniques) in the midgame 12:14:40 newsflash: the only way to get better at tennis is to play against opponents who will defeat you at first :P 12:14:54 i can remember playing the game when there was no spoilers for monsters really, it was fine 12:14:56 ais523: Seriously, what are you smoking :P 12:14:59 i could still get runes 12:15:07 greensnark: I don't do drugs 12:15:17 maybe you should! 12:15:20 The effects are uncannily similar though :P 12:15:24 but there are games like Nim where the optimal strategy has been calculated 12:15:34 the first time I went onto ##Crawl was to ask if there were better options than zot when I had teleportitis 12:15:37 and it's much better than anyone trying to play them merely through experience 12:15:42 ais523: "fun games" then 12:15:43 d: 12:15:59 I had no spoilers in getting that far 12:16:00 i mean, it's not like nim has much depth to it 12:16:10 doy: I find games more fun when I actually have enough information to make interesting decisions 12:16:28 and nim has loads of depth, or it wouldn't be the case that you wouldn't figure out the optimal strategy through playing thousands of games 12:16:30 "I find games more fun when I don't have to learn how to play" :P 12:16:36 ais523: and you like nethack? 12:16:37 d: 12:16:44 ais523: you are talking to people who won unspoiled. 12:16:56 dpeg: players spoil themselves through play 12:17:04 ais523: ... 12:17:05 oO 12:17:08 This is a very silly notion. 12:17:10 it can be done, Crawl tries to makes sure it can be done 12:17:15 but it's very very tedious 12:17:27 the whole point we're trying to make is that if you can be spoiled through play, then it's not a spoiler 12:17:39 hmm, maybe your definitions are different from mine 12:17:52 apparently! 12:17:55 once you die, that's it, game over, remembering the rules of the game for next time is a spoiler 12:18:01 not that that's a problem, ofc 12:18:02 Obviously, but we're using these notions to develop the game for some years by now. 12:18:09 yeah, that's a very non-useful definition 12:18:26 The plan is not, and never has been, to create a game that can be won in a single session. 12:18:31 ais523 is used to the Matrix where he can download kung-fu knowledge :P 12:18:33 spoilers is clearly not figuring things out for yourself, this is the standard definition 12:19:12 well... the vast majority of Crawl's code couldn't be deduced from playing the game, I imagine; Crawl's set up so that's not a problem (i.e. players can try to make informed decisions without having all the information) 12:19:16 sl 12:19:26 Everyone but ais523 agrees but still: they are called "spoilers" because by using them you ruin (spoil!) the chance to figure it out yourself. 12:19:29 you can win without knowing that slaying is amazing 12:19:33 greensnark: I found Dungeon Crawlin' Fools in the library a bit a go. :) 12:19:42 Keskitalo: Nice :) 12:19:42 so most of the time it's going to come down to instinct, learning what was useful and what wasn't in various situations 12:20:06 Dungeon Crawlin' Fools has a lot of obscure D&D jokes at the beginning, don't give up :) 12:20:07 Keskitalo: recommended reading for the whole devteam? 12:20:11 It gets better quickly 12:20:16 dpeg: definitely, I've read it too 12:20:21 OOTS is <3 12:20:22 greensnark: Read it already! 12:20:26 I enjoyed Dungeon Crawlin' fools 12:20:36 although you get more of the jokes if you know about D&D than if you don't, it's still hilarious either way 12:20:49 "Wait! I think I just failed a Listen check!" <3 12:20:55 (I imagine people unused to D&D's rules wouldn't understand it when the characters complain about game mechanics) 12:21:23 I think I got the obscure jokes, actually. Unlike the author thought. I like the metagaming jokes more than having a plot. :) 12:21:27 ais523: I knew nothing about D&D when I started OOTS, but I picked up enough to appreciate it 12:21:39 apart from the prequels, the comics are all online, too 12:22:14 dpeg, anything you wanted to voice before I implement wings / tail as DS mutations? 12:22:15 dpeg: Not really. :) But I think it's fun if you like or dislike D&D.. 12:22:37 It's a very good webcomic, orthogonal to its D&D-ness 12:23:08 Cryp71c: no, but I am not sure about the balance of the various body mutations. We'll have to see that in play. 12:23:12 Although, about plot, I read a dozen strips or so online which were past the scope of the first book, and the strip where, after they've shared the loot from the first adventure, where Haley is counting the money, that was a good one. 12:23:19 Cryp71c: thanks for providing a single patch, that will help. 12:23:22 dpeg, of course 12:23:51 the comics get more plot-heavy as time goes on, but they mostly still contain absurd jokes about D&D game mechanics, etc 12:24:58 http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0003.html <-- the first OOTS strip I really liked 12:25:24 greensnark: same 12:30:38 -!- ais523 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:32:08 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: train] 12:43:21 dpeg should create his own d20 game to replace D&D :) 12:43:55 dungeon crawl d20 12:50:57 (rolls listen check sucess) - You hear the sounds of hooves plodding in the distance. "Suddenly a large shaggy furred beast with glowing red eyes and large curled horns comes around the corner! It notices you and charges!" 12:53:06 -!- Xiberia has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:53:20 It would be great that there are already so many uniques to use for nemesises though :) 12:54:24 Or an adventure where you play as Dowan going to rescue Durvessa from the clutches of the evil Sigmund 12:57:58 twincest tales II? 13:00:30 Perfect name, and the quest is timed because Sigmund is a skilled S&M master and inflicts terrible punishments upon Durvessa(descibed in extreme detail) the longer you take! 13:01:05 That reminds me of that Peter Sellers movie where the villain locks up the girl and tortures her horribly 13:01:20 By strapping a metal claw to his hand and clawing on a blackboard 13:03:45 I'll contribute some more off-topic for the channel: Toady is promising a dirty Windows release of DF in about a week. 13:04:06 s/dirty/buggy for more exact paraphrasing. 13:04:13 DF is too terribly complicated for me 13:04:20 the interface even 13:04:28 There goes thesis, trallalallala 13:04:53 Keskitalo: What are the new hot features? 13:05:00 Got link? 13:05:23 purge: Yeah, you need the game open in one window and the wiki open in the next. At least. I had a friend instruct the basics over IRC. 13:05:33 greensnark: Yeah, Toady has a neat list here: http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=30026.0 13:05:44 Oh scratch that.. 13:06:02 "Keep in mind that this is the list of remaining items as of the original posting, not the total list of changes for the next version." 13:06:20 That's from January last year, and the last release was September 2008. 13:06:31 Oh that reminds me 13:06:41 !tell doy 0.6 done yet? :) 13:06:42 greensnark: OK, I'll let doy know. 13:06:51 -!- Xiberia has joined ##crawl-dev 13:06:55 ..and, that's more of a task list than a feature list in any case. %) 13:08:04 one of the big features is the body part overhaul 13:08:15 things have proper organs and materials and fluids and nerves and junk now 13:08:31 not totally realistic, but better than before 13:09:09 is the new DF out? 13:09:17 not yet 13:09:25 stabwound: In a week, says Toady. 13:09:30 oh 13:09:44 too bad that might coincide with 0.6 :P 13:10:03 We should release today or tomorrow and get a week's worth of playtesting :P 13:10:10 Before DF lands 13:10:21 It doesn't have the 40d17 performance improvements, which is a good reason for me to keep away from it for a little while. Actually, I already promised I can play after I finish my bachelor's thesis and an essay. 13:10:40 greensnark: YEah, I've been wondering and worrying do we get it out before DF. :> 13:10:44 DF will crush you! 13:10:53 suddenly all players disappear 13:11:24 I think a release today sounds like a great idea :P 13:12:57 I mostly want to see how good the Shoals is at killing players once it is no longer visited exclusively by maddeningly cautious players :P 13:13:11 heh 13:13:18 I've never even seen it yet 13:13:34 Well, you're maddeningly cautious, no danger to you :P 13:13:59 how much has Shoals been nerfed since December? 13:14:05 I saw Sebi splat today. He went in with exactly one scroll of teleport and he had no idea what mesmerisation was or how to break it 13:14:20 yeah, I'll probably be hammering henzell for the first little bit 13:14:35 And while he was trying to summon earth elementals he kept mistyping and summoning hostile air elementals 13:14:41 rofl 13:14:46 I don't know how someone can do that in an emergency 13:14:52 He did it twice :P 13:14:58 "oops" 13:15:09 greensnark: too bad you didn't see erik being mesmerized over water in bat form with no unarmed ksill 13:15:16 syllogism: I did 13:15:18 oh 13:15:23 That was funny 13:15:38 Of course, once he got out of that he went away and rearranged his stash for 3 hours to recover 13:15:45 So I had to stop watching :P 13:16:01 greensnark: "I'm in danger! Must play quickly to save myself!" 13:16:21 I do that all the time :P 13:16:37 I'm getting better, hence a Chei win <3 13:16:54 !won Keskitalo 13:16:55 Keskitalo has won 5 times in 114 games (4.39%): 1xDDHe 1xHuSu 1xMDFi 1xMDPa 1xNaTm 13:17:03 You already have a better win perc than me :P 13:17:53 !won 13:17:53 Xiberia has not won in 817 games. 13:17:55 :( 13:18:19 heh, I've done the "must play quicker" thing before, sort of 13:18:24 it's a weird mental thing with stabbing for me 13:18:25 greensnark: I'd like to say I cheat by playing tiles offline, but that's not really true. :) 13:18:32 I play much too little. :P 13:18:32 Keskitalo is one of those maddeningly cautious players, too 13:19:05 by: Actually, my connection is usually so laggy I can't type the movement in very quickly. :) That's probably a big part of it. 13:19:07 by: I know, I've tried to watch him play :P 13:19:11 Ha :) 13:19:26 OTOH, I don't mind the lag, so that probably tells a lot. 13:23:03 Hey, I'm reminded.. we got a Spider's Nest splat on rl.heh.fi! 13:24:41 Spider's nest was implemented? What does it replace, or is it a portal vault? 13:24:55 It's just a portal vault sketch kind of thing. 13:25:17 sketch? 13:25:26 !lg * place=~spider 13:25:29 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 13:25:32 is 5d19266 important? 13:25:36 i have no idea what it does 13:25:36 greensnark: there's a wiki entry, at least 13:25:38 Hi doy! 13:25:38 1. 78291 the Reanimator (L13 DSNe), worshipper of Kikubaaqudgha, mangled by a wolf spider in Spider on 2010-03-25, with 30381 points after 21290 turns and 1:07:07. 13:25:38 doy: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 13:25:44 !messages 13:25:46 (1/1) greensnark said (19m 3s ago): 0.6 done yet? :) 13:25:49 doy: that sounds like a lot of damage! 13:26:05 Yeah.. the one map I've made is (a) a mockup for an idea for the layout and (b) an attempt to stimulate it's development. :) 13:26:17 ogaz, or maybe not a lot at all 13:26:19 by: ^^ 13:26:56 "Sigmund snaps his second black rubber glove onto his hand and flips his scythe over. 'Vell my dear, shall ve see how deep ja rabbit hole goes?' Durvessa says, 'Do your worst you evil evil man!'" 13:27:02 ok i'm done apologies :D 13:27:57 !lg * place=~spider -tv 13:27:58 1. 78291, XL13 DSNe, T:21290 requested for FooTV. 13:28:10 doy: I think 5d19266 builds on a change that you haven't pulled 13:28:35 b4fd6a50 13:29:08 Haha, berserk redback 13:29:18 nice 13:29:19 But I do think we're making moths of wrath and the berserk effect in general way too common 13:29:34 There's that early vault with moth in glass :P 13:29:37 I had 11 moths of wrath on Zot:1, yeah 13:29:45 greensnark: that one is appropriate, at least 13:29:59 Dunno, berserk is everywhere now 13:30:07 I don't think it needs to be so common, but well, subjective 13:30:07 well it's a trog altar vault 13:30:14 Trog is not a moth god :P 13:30:30 lol @ 11 moths on zot:1 :( 13:31:13 elf girl, snorg, rupert, monsters quaffing !rage? 13:31:19 bears 13:31:25 Although I like it on bears 13:31:28 yes, forgot bears 13:31:31 oh my 13:31:38 needles of frenzy 13:31:45 Haven't seen any in game though 13:32:12 after my chaos weapon abusing halfling is done, I should try a needle abuser 13:32:24 I'm also fine with Rupert, he was the first monster who could actually zerk :P 13:32:32 Oh yeah, chaos does rage :P 13:32:42 Zin recite used to, but not any more 13:32:45 the 'monsters can't open doors' thing was 0.7 only, right? 13:33:03 can't open doors at all? yes 13:33:06 okay 13:33:18 Berserk Snorg and Duvessa are also interesting enough 13:33:24 greensnark: Lemuel's writeup includes insects of any kind in Spider, including moths of wrath, but I'm personally fine if they're restricted to Zot (they're Zot-silly!) 13:33:25 My real problem is with moth spam in early dungeon :P 13:33:30 Moths should be Zot exclusive 13:33:51 We could rule it so, I'll support. 13:34:05 We could add more interesting spiders for Spider Lair 13:34:13 The existing spider variety is not much of a challenge 13:34:16 Absolutely! There are some ideas in the wiki page. 13:34:23 redbacks can be nasty if you get the Lair early 13:34:31 What's the depth of this spider lair? 13:34:31 the trog vault could get a statue of trog with a berserk others spell 13:34:38 by: Good idea! 13:34:38 by: <3 13:35:04 -!- MarvinPA-2 has joined ##crawl-dev 13:35:14 yes, i like that better 13:35:14 (: 13:35:49 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:36:12 Kind of sucks that disintegration doesn't work on golems because it checks magic resistance.. 13:36:54 golems need beefing up 13:36:57 @??crystal golem 13:36:57 crystal golem (038) | Speed: 7 | HD: 13 | Health: 91-143 | AC/EV: 22/3 | Damage: 40 | Flags: 11non-living, see invisible | Res: 13magic(immune), 04fire+++, 12cold+++, 11elec+++, 09poison+++ | XP: 613. 13:37:00 weeeeeak 13:37:01 i love golems 13:37:20 Mu_: But they're completely unthreatening unless you paint yourself into a corner :P 13:37:30 electric golems are strong enough 13:37:41 electric golems are the only dangerous golems 13:37:44 yes 13:37:55 the ones in crypt:5 have also occasionally done enough damage to matter 13:38:10 by: Same way elephant slugs occasionally kill players :) 13:38:13 They still suck! 13:38:14 my tomb of doroklohe visit was a lot of fun 13:38:17 golem danger is completely negated by them being slower than average 13:38:25 Oh, the new dancing weapons are quite dangerous 13:38:41 You get a great mace in Blade, you better be kickass or have a quick exit :P 13:38:42 but due mainly to the one electric golem; the others were pushovers 13:38:59 how fast is a great mace in Blade? 13:39:07 does that mean player-made dancing weapons are better too? 13:39:20 stabwound: You need ench skill for decent Tukima output 13:39:25 stabwound: no, tukima's is power-based now 13:39:33 oh fuckit 13:39:35 and weapons in Blade have high power 13:39:51 greensnark: You know, it's funny how slow monsters turn into a considerable threat for Chei worshippers. :) Well, the golems in Crypt:5 at least. I used Bend Time against them quite effectively. 13:39:56 I found a great mace in Tukima's wizlab and had to burn six charges of /oHeal just to get out :P 13:39:56 who actually gets enchantments to a high power? :p 13:40:13 stabwound: Everyone gets it to the point they can cast Haste :P 13:40:22 I have a dancing great mace right now, already used a blink scroll.. 13:40:30 are dancing weapons good at that level? 13:40:44 No idea 13:40:45 where you have haste reliable 13:40:50 ah 13:40:58 stabwound: the relevant commit included tables 13:41:10 03by 07stone_soup-0.6 * reb7d5c3ca1dd 10/crawl-ref/source/message.cc: Call tiles.set_need_redraw() from message_window::show(). 13:41:12 03kilobyte 07stone_soup-0.6 * rb46e5a42712a 10/crawl-ref/source/misc.cc: Fix a nasty memory leak. 13:41:13 03by 07stone_soup-0.6 * r7cfa856d9a12 10/crawl-ref/source/l_moninf.cc: Properly fix ch_mon_is_safe memory leak (greensnark). 13:41:14 03by 07stone_soup-0.6 * ra0c9f5ef1974 10/crawl-ref/source/l_moninf.cc: Adapt mi_get_monster_at to lua_push_moninf-change. 13:41:18 03kilobyte 07stone_soup-0.6 * rab105714510e 10/crawl-ref/source/initfile.cc: Disallow overriding any directory setting from .rc in DGL. 13:41:19 03kilobyte 07stone_soup-0.6 * r7024c91fda06 10/crawl-ref/source/spells1.cc: Fix divine vigour crashing. 13:41:22 03kilobyte 07stone_soup-0.6 * rdd81fb8024a8 10/crawl-ref/source/mapdef.cc: Typo fix: "Unkown". 13:41:24 03kilobyte 07stone_soup-0.6 * ra454cc4476bf 10/crawl-ref/docs/options_guide.txt: Describe various cset_ encodings. 13:41:26 03kilobyte 07stone_soup-0.6 * rdd7441be2ec3 10/crawl-ref/source/describe.cc: Don't advertise blunt weapons as "big, fiery blades (for hydras)" [Mantis 1159] 13:41:27 03due 07stone_soup-0.6 * r5342222e9e29 10/crawl-ref/source/mislead.cc: Orbs of Destruction shouldn't be viable mislead targets. [#1163]. 13:41:31 So are we doing rc5 or release? :) 13:41:38 03greensnark 07stone_soup-0.6 * r789322b64ab6 10/crawl-ref/CREDITS.txt: Correct name in credits (Sophie Hamilton). 13:41:49 i don't think anything in there is important enough to require another rc 13:41:49 (: 13:41:55 <:-D 13:42:03 <3 13:42:23 CDO update button! 13:42:23 hooray 13:42:39 who's making mac builds? 13:43:21 I can, given a few hours to sort out the xcode project 13:43:35 how far back do we support on osx? 13:43:38 We should get neunon to look at the xcode projects, they do a lot of weird things and I can't make out why 13:44:09 How far back in Crawl terms? 0.3 or so. In Mac terms 10.4 or better. 13:44:36 But we only got proper Mac builds recently 13:45:08 Unfortunately the project files don't build without dramatic surgery, so I may be missing something neunon does 13:45:17 Screw the Mac users :) 13:46:04 lol 13:46:54 Xcode is an incredibly lame IDE 13:47:09 They can't even get code complete right for Objective C, which is trivial to parse 13:47:30 Although that may be because they're waiting for clang to catch up 13:47:44 make package-source needs a bit of love i think 13:47:55 I thought kilobyte fixed the problems there 13:48:00 it's building lua and calculating dependencies 13:48:09 What 13:48:14 and says this: /bin/sh: line 1: @echo: command not found 13:48:20 it seems to work other than that 13:48:20 Heh 13:48:25 but not really inspiring confidence 13:48:29 What does it do with the Lua build? 13:48:33 nothing 13:48:36 Huh 13:48:37 as far as i can tell 13:49:43 what about rebuilding the pdf help files? 13:49:48 how does that work? 13:50:54 Oh, we have quite a few pdfs 13:51:06 dpeg would know, but that should certainly be documented so other people can do it too. :) 13:51:16 I think we should remove the .pdfs from repo :P 13:51:33 Generating them will involve another dependency, and I'm not convinced that pdfs are worth the trouble :) 13:51:49 well, it can be an optional dep 13:52:14 but yeah, the pdfs themselves shouldn't be in the repo 13:52:17 Yes, but we should have the latex or whatever file in repo, with the pdf generated and not checked in 13:52:20 right 13:52:39 beak prevents you from wearing a helmet? 13:52:40 I think this is dpeg using elite Latex skills :) 13:53:13 !tell dpeg Do you have the sources for your .pdfs (README.pdf and friends) that can be committed to the Crawl repo? 13:53:13 greensnark: OK, I'll let dpeg know. 13:53:15 Perhaps we could obliterate the "Support Request" category and have a "Build Issues" category. 13:54:04 Cryp71c: I think your enum.h changes will force a major version bump; do you maybe have some other mutations in the queue that could already go into mutation_type? 13:54:37 hmmm 13:54:48 and the generated source tarball includes .d files 13:54:56 also, shouldn't MUT_HORNS, MUT_BEAK go with the body slot facet part? 13:56:36 by, what do you mean, mutation_type? and yes, MUT_HORNS and BEAK should have been relocated to with the body slot facets. 13:56:53 s/to with/to be with 13:57:05 they aren't there in the Newer_* patch 13:57:16 also, MUT_ANTENNAE is missing from enum.h 13:58:15 re mutation_type: player mutations are surely saved in the save files, so if the enum is shuffled (and anyway if mutations are changed), save compatibility must be broken 13:58:50 if we added MUT_XYZ to mutation_type now without implementation, that could be filled in and enabled later without breaking save compatibility 13:58:55 also, it's quite apparent that the release docs were written for svn, and then skimmed over to replace references to svn with references to git 13:59:10 should go back and fix that at some point too 13:59:14 Ugh, generating the level compiler now depends on contrib-libs which jumps in and builds all submodules :P 13:59:31 I wonder if that's actually necessary 13:59:32 -!- myuzinn has quit [] 13:59:45 * greensnark dd 14:00:03 Cryp71c: apply_antennae_effect() also seems to be missing 14:00:33 Cryp71c: if you prefer (say no time now), I can add these notes to the mantis issue 14:00:46 -!- DrPraetor has joined ##crawl-dev 14:01:20 by, I'm correcting the issues as we speak, if you would remove those 2 "Collective" patchfiles from mantis (Or not, if you don't think it will cause confusion) I'll get these fixed and a new patchfile up 14:05:59 Cryp71c: also, you have some long lines in your patches; should be 80 characters max 14:09:08 greensnark: makefile:1045 shouldn't have the leading @, if you're messing with the makefile 14:21:30 by, this is going to take a bit, my apply_antennae_effect() was lost somewhere by my own carelessness, gotta re-implement it. 14:23:14 doy: Will do 14:26:48 Interesting 14:27:10 If I compile without unicode support Crawl complains about unicode support being disabled, but goes ahead and shows me garbled output anyway 14:27:21 It used to force ASCII in that case 14:27:44 Not that it's a serious problem 14:31:40 -!- Vandal has quit [] 14:33:05 hrm, I'm trying to build, but "git submodule update --init" doesn't seem to pull everything it should. THe only thing special about this clone is that I added a remote for my github, could that be interfering? 14:33:46 Why do you think something's wrong with submodule update? 14:34:12 If you show us what it's doing vs what you want it to do we might be able to help :P 14:36:38 greensnark, because when I run it all I get is "Directory 'crawl-ref/source/contrib/freetype' exists, but is neither empty nor a git repository" and it didn't complete successfully, there's no makefile or any of that. 14:36:48 greensnark: Oh, by the way. Henzell might not like my way of resolving Kalma's save incompatibility 14:37:12 Cryp71c: Try deleting contrib/freetype and run submodule update --init again 14:37:19 joosa: What have you done? :P 14:37:21 He got two milestones for reacing Slime:6, and two games overlap each other in ttyrec timestamps 14:37:31 aw, can't read somethingawful anymore 14:37:33 oh well 14:37:53 joosa: Duplicate milestones happen, that's not a serious issue 14:38:01 ok 14:38:36 !lm * type=zig.enter s=name 14:38:42 35400 milestones for * (type=zig.enter): 35008x WYA, 104x N78291, 51x Ahrin, 30x Kalma, 23x 78291, 20x mikee, 8x syllogism, 7x heteroy, 6x Temoid, 5x thevalrus, 5x zigrobin, 5x jenius, 5x Omniguy, 5x coolrobin, 4x hyperbolic, 4x oxeimon, 4x sh, 3x Meow, 3x mafalda, 3x Fungee, 3x Tenaya, 3x Shaijin, 3x Luca, 3x undermind, 3x joosa, 2x ebarrett, 2x xyblor, 2x soldroz, 2x Cryptic, 2x VicViper, 2x Gri... 14:38:49 hah 14:38:52 I should delete those dupes though :P 14:38:52 greensnark, thanks, that fixed it. 14:38:52 that's sort of the kind of duplicate milestones 14:38:59 greensnark: no it's funny :( 14:39:04 35k dupes is a bit much in the db :P 14:39:22 wow 14:39:56 were you on IRC at the time? it was impossible to hold a conversation 14:40:16 I didn't see that, no 14:40:23 It was really important for everyone to know that WYA was entering a Ziggurat 14:40:28 lol 14:40:34 greensnark, I'm getting "SQLITE_HAS_CODEC is not defined" warnings, are you guys getting these too? 14:40:42 (on make debug) 14:40:45 Cryp71c: Yes, there's a bug filed for that 14:40:59 k, wanted to make sure it wasnt something else fouled up on my end. 14:53:41 -!- purge has quit [Quit: .] 15:01:47 Hm 15:02:10 doy: We need to include the tiles submodules in package-source, right? 15:02:24 package-source currently bundles only tty dependencies 15:17:12 03greensnark * r5a904f3ee872 10/crawl-ref/source/stairs.cc: Fix USE_DGAMELAUNCH compile. 15:17:13 03greensnark * rf03f2ddbc3bb 10/crawl-ref/source/makefile: Don't build contribs for package-source target, don't include .d, fix s/@echo/echo, include tiles submodules in source bundles (doy). 15:19:32 alright, once dpeg gets the pdf stuff straightened out, i'll start building stuff 15:19:40 -!- Vandal has joined ##crawl-dev 15:20:11 Source tarballs are pretty big with all the tiles dependencies stuffed into them :P 15:20:15 (: 15:20:43 Maybe we should do a lean source tarball for people on Unixes with decent package managers 15:20:52 that sounds like a good idea 15:21:13 that's what most projects do, anyway 15:21:24 Yes 15:21:41 This bundling-everything is really only for Windows users :) 15:22:09 ogaz FRs a new monster, the hell-lion, a red 2, with no hyphen in its name 15:23:43 -!- jld has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:23:57 'I forgot to set the boiling point of the gas inside the body of a floating creature, so the poor thing died with the message " has condensed."' 15:24:04 DF devblog is so amusing to read 15:24:19 doy: calling 'pdflatex whatever.tex' in source/util/docs works for me 15:24:35 Oh, we have the tex sources already 15:24:49 ah, sweet 15:24:54 !tell dpeg Please disregard the previous message. 15:24:54 greensnark: OK, I'll let dpeg know. 15:25:02 !tell dpeg And the message before this one. 15:25:03 greensnark: OK, I'll let dpeg know. 15:25:11 greensnark: mind cleaning that up? (adding it to the makefile, removing the .pdfs) 15:25:23 i'm going to run to the store, i'll start doing stuff once i get back 15:25:41 Let me take a look 15:25:46 the tex files would probably prefer to live in docs/template or similar 15:26:12 adding the -nodeps tarball to package-source would be nice too 15:26:13 (: 15:26:21 Heh, there's a figure of what the screen layout looks like :P 15:26:26 back in 30 minutes or so 15:27:06 Is the makefile set up to find system libraries and use those preferentially 15:27:20 I know it tries to on the Mac and fails spectacularly 15:27:23 I believe so, using pkg-config 15:27:34 What about sqlite and friends 15:27:51 Ah, it seems to do the right thing 15:28:01 Don't have Linux handy to test though 15:29:00 -!- DrPraetor has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:29:24 -!- Vandal|PC has joined ##crawl-dev 15:29:48 -!- Vandal has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:59:34 -!- DrPraetor has joined ##crawl-dev 15:59:54 -!- jld has joined ##crawl-dev 16:05:20 random thought: how about making potion of exp give 20k exp if you're XL27? 16:05:28 -!- Spads has quit [Quit: BIOS] 16:05:40 * stabwound thumbs up 16:06:05 they're rare enough that they might as well do something at xl27 16:06:22 -!- Vandal|PC has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 16:07:08 greensnark: Windows tiles dependencies were intentionally removed from the tarball because 1. they're MASSIVE, 2. hardly anyone builds Windows binaries from source, 3. usually you need msysgit anyway 16:07:32 Then why do we bundle deps at all 16:07:39 greensnark, any experience with how detect creatures works? 16:08:01 Does anyone actually use the tiles deps to build tiles? 16:08:28 you need quite a few external deps too 16:09:05 For the Windows tty build it's quite convenient to have Lua and sqlite built in-tree; is it similarly simple for tiles? 16:09:17 If it is, we should just include tiles deps in the fat source tarball 16:09:34 And ship -nodeps source tarball with no deps, including no Lua/sqlite/pcre/foobletch 16:10:10 Does the makefile build cleanly on Linux with no deps in contrib? I'm guessing it does 16:10:36 greensnark: I've built tiles with the bundled stuff, on Linux (though I somehow forced it to use only contrib) 16:10:40 -!- Spads has joined ##crawl-dev 16:11:36 also, I think the mac makefile build uses sdl from contrib, here 16:12:13 I use SDL from contrib here as well, but only because the main makefile forces a 32-bit build and my ports SDL is 64-bit 16:12:46 I can probably build against ports SDL if I pass the right options to the main makefile 16:12:52 getting windows version to build without msysgit is :( 16:13:05 I guess it's nice to have a source bundle that builds without ports on mac 16:13:19 by: Yes, we're proposing to have two source tarballs 16:13:24 gah! I'm trying to mark detected monsters using ~ the same way invis creatures are marked when they're splashing around in water...does anyone know specifically where that code is at? 16:13:40 One with everything in contrib, one (-nodeps) with nothing from contrib 16:13:48 greensnark: sounds good 16:13:56 I just need to check that -nodeps actually builds on Mac and Linux 16:14:31 Cryp71c: grep INVIS_EXPOSED 16:16:09 stabwound: yeah, that was pretty much what I was thinking 16:16:15 Cryp71c: also, env.show and env.map_knowledge 16:16:50 by, env.map_knowledge is what I'm working with presently, and I can get it to reveal the genus of the monster (just as detect creatures does) but that's not quite what I wanted. 16:18:20 you'll have to understand how env.show and env.map_knowledge function 16:27:16 there, got it. a red ~ 16:31:42 03alpha.dev * r02f2e783bdcc 10/crawl-ref/source/output.cc: Highlight evasion value during the effects of a potion of agility. 16:34:17 Nice, looks like the makefile can build without contrib/ on Debian at least 16:34:31 Do I need to bother checking any other OS :P 16:34:48 On Mac it can build without contrib once I kick it to look at Macports paths 16:34:59 well, my packaging intentionally deletes contrib/ on start just to be sure it's not used 16:35:26 Cool, we'll just do -nodeps and -sumo tarballs then 16:35:54 how do you get it to build without contrib/ 16:35:56 ? 16:36:13 doy: just make sure you have all the libraries installed 16:36:13 doy: The makefile looks for the headers for the prereqs 16:36:30 I haven't tried the tiles build, but kilobyte has sorted out the makefile for Deb and it works fine for me 16:36:46 oh, it uses debian names for paths d: 16:36:50 Yep :P 16:36:54 should fix that 16:36:54 libncursesw5-dev, bison, flex, liblua5.1-0-dev, pkg-config, libsdl-image1.2-dev, libsdl1.2-dev, libsqlite3-dev, libfreetype6-dev 16:37:20 doy: What distro do you use? 16:37:25 greensnark: arch 16:37:34 Aha, you're into Arch too 16:37:51 debian-based distros are the only ones that do lua5.1 for everything though 16:37:52 So you can fix the makefile for Arch, right? :) 16:37:56 as far as i have seen 16:38:17 Yeah, Macports also just dumps lua headers into /opt/local/include without version info in path 16:41:33 Anyone here used cmake? 16:42:05 How good is it at replacing autoconf-y things like discovering what functions are available and non-broken 16:44:28 no idea, but I really fail to see why we don't use autoconf. Our makefile is absolutely bizarre, trying to do autoconfage without autoconf. 16:45:03 autoconf is pretty gross 16:45:07 and it tends to do things by comparing version numbers instead of actual feature checks, to make sure it's as little portable as possible 16:45:10 cmake go! 16:45:21 alternatively, "i can read makefiles, i can't read m4" 16:45:23 I'm not a huge fan of autoconf, but trying to do that detection in makefile is never going to work well 16:46:15 autoconf has two downsides: 1. it produces code that tries to be compatible with '70s shells, producing ./configure of >1MB, and 2. m4 16:46:23 yes 16:46:37 but it has one big upside: automake 16:46:50 and the results are damn reliable 16:47:38 -!- purge has joined ##crawl-dev 16:47:53 3. It's a compiler written by people who don't actually know anything about compilers 16:48:07 i knew sorear would chime in soon enough 16:48:09 (: 16:48:32 but as long as you don't try to program in m4, it works :) 16:48:49 bhaak: you're not given all that much choice, if you use autotools 16:49:23 So what are the sane alternatives to autotools 16:49:30 Hand-rolled makefiles are not really sane :P 16:49:59 i'm fine with them 16:50:01 *shrug* 16:50:11 They're fine if you can edit makefiles 16:50:15 right 16:50:21 But J. Random User who wants to build Crawl will probably not be able to 16:50:32 why would he need to? 16:50:33 Unless they use the -sumo tarball and everything pans out right 16:50:51 and is he going to be able to edit autoconf stuff any better? 16:50:52 Because his distro doesn't have Crawl, presumably 16:50:54 doy: depends on what you want to do. I'd say if you have to do it in m4, you're doing something crazy or strange 16:51:06 try for example editing the makefile to allow -flto 16:51:17 doy: Presumably a good configure script would be able to better detect stuff to produce a working makefile 16:51:27 even simpler, try to compile Crawl with clang 16:51:27 -flto? 16:51:47 mm, clang 16:51:50 sorear: gcc-4.5 16:52:10 and indeed, clang except that clang doesn't do c++ yet 16:52:22 case in point: 16:52:24 #if defined(TARGET_OS_MACOSX) || defined(TARGET_OS_LINUX) || \ defined(TARGET_OS_FREEBSD) || defined(TARGET_OS_NETBSD) || \ defined(TARGET_OS_OPENBSD) || defined(TARGET_COMPILER_CYGWIN) || \ defined(TARGET_OS_SOLARIS) #ifndef UNIX #define UNIX #endif 16:52:24 clang's getting better, maybe in a couple of years :) 16:52:28 #endif 16:52:43 how the hell constructions like that can be called "portable"? 16:53:04 this is what you have if you don't do feature checks 16:53:22 kilobyte: a more important question is 16:53:27 how portable do we care to be? 16:53:34 are we going to be testing crawl on systems other than those? 16:53:37 it's no different than checking browser's name for "MSIE" and "Firefox" to make sure Iceweasel or Chrome won't work 16:54:35 clang ♥ 16:54:41 no other comments 16:55:10 doy: it breaks for example on Debian's kfreebsd 16:55:25 doy: because it's BSD kernel GNU userland 16:55:48 03greensnark * r48d787d7351a 10/crawl-ref/source/makefile: Make package-source also create -nodeps tarball without contribs/ 16:56:42 kilobyte: is somebody running kfreebsd to make sure that things other than the makefile aren't broken? 16:57:18 basically i really just disagree with the concept that portability is inherently good for its own sake 16:57:23 let's talk about the fact that spells don't use mana in the dos build 16:57:29 what sorear said 16:57:30 doy: no idea 16:57:48 djgpp bug? 16:58:16 The DOS build was cross-compiled? 16:58:17 doy: but unlike say, Hurd, which we received patches for, debian-kfreebsd actually is a release architecture with some users 16:58:48 greensnark: no 16:59:11 kilobyte: if we have someone who's willing to step up and patch it when it breaks and whatnot on kfreebsd, i have no problem with supporting it 16:59:26 djgpp is the one living DOS C++ compiler; it can be built either for a UNIX or DOS host 16:59:31 but blindly relying on build tools to say "it compiles, therefore it must work!" is just asking for trouble 17:00:17 doy: definitely 17:01:11 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:01:18 I don't think anybody claimed that 17:01:53 but testing for OS instead of features will break sooner or later 17:02:14 right, that's why we have testers 17:02:16 but what I'm complaining about is doing things like checking for strings like "Mach" (defined on Mac and Hurd) and then assuming specific features, instead of checking the features directly 17:04:09 and that's what autotools, cmake, scons, etc are for. You don't want to check features in Makefiles 17:04:46 +1 bhaak 17:04:47 -!- ogaz has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:07:53 Having said that autotools is icky and scons is a dog 17:08:00 I was wondering about cmake :P 17:08:34 Also the scons builds I've seen were all too prone to fall over with helpful python backtraces that told me nothing 17:09:37 yeah, scons is fragile to the point of uselessness 17:09:53 last time I tried, I didn't find bhaak-compatible documentation for cmake, so I can't say how well it works :) 17:10:26 so our choices are cmake or NIH? 17:11:08 autotools may be icky, but it can be forced to do most of the 17:11:40 I'd definitely go with autoconf. It may use m4, but it's no harder to use than the alternatives, and is certainly better documented. 17:11:47 *of what one wants. If not there;s likely a macro on the internet so you don't have resorting to go doing with m4 17:12:05 and there is a reason over 99% of projects use autotools and not the rest 17:12:54 what things does crawl actually need detected? 17:13:04 another good question 17:13:29 one thing I know from my own experience with autotools is that it doesn't force you to abandon your old makefiles. I don't know how the other alternatives handle legacy makefiles 17:13:33 All the tangled #ifdef WINDOWS stuff in the source 17:13:51 That's autoconf's other major flaw 17:14:08 I don't know if it's actually worth moving Crawl to a hypothetical different make system, but I'm wondering if there's a sane alternative to magic makefiles 17:14:18 would it be possible to have a small makefile/header fragment included that sets relevant variables? 17:14:19 Crawl's pretty small 17:14:33 basically all ifdefs in the makefile save for ifdef DEBUG, ifdef TILES, ifdef HURRY 17:14:40 I've seen magic makefiles of ridiculous length that do all sorts of bogus detection of OS features at work :P 17:15:13 320,000 loc is small? 17:15:21 sorear: The makefile is small 17:15:24 The dependencies are few 17:15:46 Our makefiles have to handle building SDL, etc? 17:16:21 I'm talking about the case where libs used are system libs 17:16:26 also: i do like our makefile output 17:16:27 yes: makefile:ifdef BUILD_SDL 17:16:34 as compared to typical autotools makefile output 17:16:41 kilobyte: autoconf wouldn't allow removing those ifdef's from the source, would it? 17:17:05 oh, ifdefs in the makefile 17:17:07 crawl's makefile output resembles cmake's output 17:17:22 bhaak: So do you or do you not know cmake :) 17:18:38 -!- eith has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:18:43 greensnark: I've never used it personally for building my own projects but of course have run several third party project that use it. Doing 'cmake . && make' is not rocket-science! 17:18:58 Oh, end user only 17:20:34 -!- sorear has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:20:51 in any case 17:21:00 we were in the middle of trying to get 0.6 released at one point 17:21:08 -!- sorear has joined ##crawl-dev 17:21:17 hmm, trying clang, it has somehow found my G++ STL include files, tried to parse them, and died 17:21:19 I wonder what I did wrong 17:21:27 Oh yes, what's left on 0.6 :P 17:21:38 greensnark: -nodeps tarball 17:21:38 (: 17:21:43 Done 17:21:53 In master, anyway 17:22:11 We also need to poke rax, napkin, and maybe joosa 17:22:29 oh, missed the message 17:23:47 Is the latest 0.6 up on cdo? 17:23:59 -rc4 is 17:25:06 poke received 17:25:14 wWhat happen? 17:25:28 -!- pointless_ has joined ##crawl-dev 17:25:56 going to get all the tarballs built first, and get a newspost ready before updating the servers 17:26:05 Are we still using SF for file releases? 17:26:36 And if so, have they simplified that process since the last time I looked? :) 17:27:07 It involved uploading files on anonymous ftp and then finding them from a giant list of other unrelated uploads in the file release html page from hell 17:27:13 What do we need to poke rax on? 17:27:13 rax: You have 4 messages. Use !messages to read them. 17:27:18 Hahahaha. 17:27:20 !messages 17:27:20 (1/4) rax said (8w 1d 6h 19m 38s ago): Update the CAO links to the Windows downloads when you have more time. 17:27:23 !messages 17:27:23 (1/3) Chapayev said (3w 5d 19h 24m 23s ago): New variant on Crawl, probably more fun and definitely less buggy than zotdef, maybe it would make a good replacement for zotdef on CAO: http://sites.google.com/site/crawlvariations/dungeon-sprint 17:27:25 !messages 17:27:25 (1/2) Chapayev said (3w 5d 4h 54m 46s ago): With Napkin's help, I made Sprint based on master instead of based on 0.5.2; it's now got its own branch on git. 17:27:27 !messages 17:27:27 (1/1) LordSloth said (6d 5h 15m 38s ago): http://rl.heh.fi - Another server! 17:27:41 rax: imminent 0.6 release 17:27:51 *doom* *doom* *doom* 17:27:53 0.6 0.6 0.6 0.6 0.6 0.6 0.6 0.6 0.6 0.6 0.6 0.6 0.6 0.6 0.6 0.6 0.6 0.6 0.6 0.6 0.6 0.6 17:27:54 yay 17:28:05 !coffee joosa 17:28:05 * Henzell hands joosa a mug of café au lait, brewed by the Serpent of Hell. 17:28:14 ah, hot. 17:28:24 CAO's not getting updated until my thesis is done. 17:28:32 03doy * r909fd2d1f4bd 10/crawl-ref/source/makefile: use system lua on non-debian distros 17:28:34 Sorry. I don't know the new build system and I don't know git. 17:29:13 I could cautiously attempt an upgrade if you're busy 17:29:32 2y? 2m? 2w? 2d? 17:29:48 April 5th. I'm hoping to be done by the 2nd, but we'll see. 17:29:57 Oh, April 5 isn't too far in the future 17:30:01 If you could get a working build I could deal with the rest, that only takes an hour or two. 17:30:03 I'll wait :) 17:30:13 I'm just very high-strung and not really capable of learning new things right now. 17:30:24 03greensnark 07stone_soup-0.6 * r7ae14fefcf2c 10/crawl-ref/source/makefile: Make package-source also create -nodeps tarball without contribs/ 17:30:25 03doy 07stone_soup-0.6 * r241692e38682 10/crawl-ref/source/makefile: use system lua on non-debian distros 17:30:34 Ok, once the release is out I'll take a look 17:30:51 We may have the usual major release hiccups with save and settings dirs, have to check 17:31:22 Well, it's not a savefile-compatible release, so normally I'd just s/crawl/crawl06/ on everything and run it all side by side. 17:32:13 Are conffiles compatible in both directions? Or should we just make .crawlrc06 files, too? 17:32:33 Config won't be a problem 17:32:42 Crawl will ignore things it doesn't understand 17:32:52 Although players may get warnings about Lua files that are Gone 17:32:58 I'd like people to be able to play online on day 1, and if you could help with that it would be awesome. 17:33:05 That happened in 0.4->0.5 too, I forget how we handled it. 17:33:07 greensnark: thought we fixed that 17:33:28 I'm happy to help with the build and stuff, but I'm not very familiar with cao dgl setup 17:33:45 That's because it's a horrible doom nightmare of suck. :) 17:33:51 I really need to document it. After April 5th. 17:34:05 doy: Someone using a 0.5 rc may have a reference to eat.lua which is gone in 0.6; did we improve the errors in that case? 17:36:01 The error message is pretty harmless but it produces bug reports :P 17:36:57 Standing by for the 0.6 release 17:37:01 ...party 17:37:19 * joosa gets the 12th beer 17:37:25 03greensnark 07stone_soup-0.6 * rb8127bff93df 10/crawl-ref/source/makefile: Don't build contribs for package-source target, don't include .d, fix s/@echo/echo, include tiles submodules in source bundles (doy). 17:37:36 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 17:37:38 could have sworn i already picked that one 17:37:48 go doy go 17:37:48 dpeg: You have 3 messages. Use !messages to read them. 17:37:52 !messages 17:37:52 (1/3) greensnark said (3h 44m 39s ago): Do you have the sources for your .pdfs (README.pdf and friends) that can be committed to the Crawl repo? 17:38:11 greensnark: the sources are in, of course 17:38:16 utils/docs or so 17:38:18 greensnark: the sources are in, of course 17:38:20 dpeg: Yes, by mentioned it soon after :) 17:38:20 !messages 17:38:21 (1/2) greensnark said (2h 13m 27s ago): Please disregard the previous message. 17:38:31 heh 17:38:38 I accept to disregard the previous message. 17:38:54 At a price: exploding pineapples. 17:38:57 !messages 17:38:57 (1/1) greensnark said (2h 13m 54s ago): And the message before this one. 17:39:02 exploding messages 17:39:09 hmmm, getting a bunch of messages like fatal: git ls-files: cannot generate relative filenames containing '..' 17:39:14 from make package-source 17:39:23 Hm 17:39:25 i imagine it's because i'm doing this in a fresh local clone 17:39:38 Let me try that 17:39:39 "git clone ../coding/src/crawl-ref" 17:43:20 0.6? 17:44:24 -!- nrook has joined ##crawl-dev 17:44:27 doy: No errors here in a local clone of 0.6 17:44:34 what's up? 17:44:39 greensnark: did your local clone have .. in it? 17:44:44 Napkin! 17:44:51 greensnarking :D 17:45:17 Ah, I think I used ~/ so it was an absolute path 17:45:42 * greensnark does the .. shuffle. 17:46:47 ohoooh - 0.6 release today? :D 17:47:26 Napkin: Have to release before new DF, or nobody will even notice the release :P 17:47:36 hehehe 17:47:43 DF? Dwarf Fortress? 17:48:45 -!- DrPraetor has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:49:08 doy: Works fine 17:49:10 not sure i can stay awake that long tonight.. 17:49:29 Although my git does this: origin /Users/tecumseh/fun/crawl/cow/../crawl-ref (fetch) 17:49:35 CDO can surely do with a lag in update ;) 17:49:37 greensnark: shrug, just did it with a normal clone from sf and the errors went away 17:49:40 $ git --version 17:49:41 git version 1.7.0.3 17:49:50 same 17:50:09 Anyway it's unlikely to come up much :) 17:50:10 Napkin: you cannot retreat now! 17:50:18 !seen bhaak 17:50:18 I last saw bhaak at Fri Mar 26 22:18:43 2010 UTC (31m 35s ago) saying greensnark: Ive never used it personally for building my own projects but of course have run several third party project that use it. Doing cmake . && make is not rocket-science! on ##crawl-dev. 17:50:28 doy: Does your git remote -v show leading .. ? 17:51:03 origin /home/doy/tmp/../coding/src/crawl-ref (fetch) 17:51:03 CDO has that nice update script, right? 17:51:19 nah, we can't use that 17:51:36 it'll put 0.6 games into -svn miles/logfile 17:51:48 Oh right 17:51:57 logistics, logistics 17:52:03 exactly :) 17:52:12 greensnark: btw, what's the "cow" doing in your crawl folder? 17:52:31 dpeg: 'cow' is my standard metasyntactic variable 17:52:39 Where other people would use 'foo' 17:53:28 I worked on a team with a guy who said "What the cow?" instead of "WTF" and the cow infected the whole team 17:53:51 lol 17:56:26 Napkin: in a hour there'll be a movie about japan sinking! now that you know that, you can't go to sleep! 17:56:36 pah 17:56:52 Death by Xom-induced poison reported as "you's poison" (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1170) by 78291 17:56:57 Napkin: Do you play DF? :P 17:57:07 "you's poison" <3 <3 <3 17:57:11 once every few years, greensnark :) 17:58:14 bhaak: XL 12!!1! 17:58:56 @whereis bhaak 17:58:56 bhaak the Cleaver (L12 MiBe), a worshipper of Trog, dead on Lair:8 on 2010-03-26 after 13924 turns. 17:58:59 Yay bhaak 17:59:06 !hs bhaak 17:59:07 136. bhaak the Cleaver (L12 MiBe), worshipper of Trog, slain by a black mamba on Lair:8 on 2010-03-26, with 16926 points after 13924 turns and 1:26:16. 17:59:14 bhaak: getting a feel for Trog? 17:59:20 since when 78291 plays locally? 17:59:23 RARGH CHARGE KILL 17:59:30 ah, rl.heh.fi 17:59:31 kilobyte: he does? Isn't that verbotenß 17:59:37 !lg !78291 17:59:37 4035. 78291 the Skirmisher (L2 DSCK), worshipper of Xom, succumbed to you's poison on D:1 on 2010-03-26, with 68 points after 724 turns and 0:02:03. 17:59:49 That is deeply hilarious 17:59:52 hah 17:59:54 probably b/c he.fi has 0.7. 18:00:08 yeah, that was a 0.7 game 18:00:22 joosa: thums up for multi-games server! 18:00:25 *thumbs 18:00:27 yeah, it's a bug in my code, but no one saw it before since no one plays 0.7 yet 18:00:41 * joosa receives tumbs 18:00:44 *thums 18:00:47 *thumbs 18:01:01 03doy * r9e775b7ac87f 10/crawl-ref/docs/changelog.txt: update changelog with actual release date 18:01:03 that thums it up nithely 18:01:09 I'm liking the weak zombies on early levels--who do I thank for that? 18:01:24 nrook: monster or ally zombiesß 18:01:31 dpeg: monsters 18:01:38 dpeg: I never used to see stuff like "snake zombie", now I do 18:01:39 03doy 07stone_soup-0.6 * rfbe6be0bc19c 10/crawl-ref/docs/changelog.txt: update changelog with actual release date 18:01:51 !lg * killer=snake zombie min=lvl s=v 18:01:54 17 games for * (killer=snake zombie min=lvl): 5x 0.4.4, 3x 0.5.1, 2x 0.5.2, 1x 0.4.3, 1x 0.3.4, 1x 0.5, 1x 0.1.7, 1x 0.3.3, 1x 0.6.0-a1, 1x 0.6.0-rc 18:01:55 Er 18:02:01 !lg * killer=snake zombie min=lvl v<0.4 18:02:01 3. aristotle the Reanimator (L5 DENe), slain by a snake zombie on D:5 on 2007-03-03, with 361 points after 4403 turns and 0:09:47. 18:02:15 Maybe he raised the snake himself 18:02:26 Sounds like the sort of thing aristotle would do :) 18:02:35 !lg * killer=snake zombie min=lvl v<0.4 -2 18:02:36 2. bobbens the Spear-Bearer (L6 DrGl), worshipper of Zin, slain by a snake zombie on D:5 on 2007-12-15, with 529 points after 4560 turns and 0:14:19. 18:02:36 haha aristotle 18:02:39 !lg * killer=snake zombie min=lvl v<0.4 -3 18:02:40 1. Mahnmut the Ducker (L8 HaCr), slain by a snake zombie on D:6 on 2008-06-08, with 1054 points after 7642 turns and 0:42:07. 18:03:22 !tv * killer=snake zombie min=lvl v<0.4 18:03:22 3. aristotle, XL5 DENe, T:4403 requested for FooTV. 18:04:13 I see. 18:04:37 dpeg: I'm not sure trog really knows what a good god gift is :) 18:05:02 He gave you Dragonbane? :) 18:05:09 Or Ogresmasher? :) 18:05:22 Orcrist :) 18:05:29 Haha 18:05:45 At least you weren't farming an altar for it :) 18:06:05 Pretty soon you'll wonder why NH forces you to altar farm :P 18:06:11 And then! 18:06:17 bhaak: I am not happy with permanent god gifts, but at least Trog only hands out weapons. 18:06:40 I have seen bhaak use autoexplore! 18:06:47 with randarts, you have more options for gift weapons 18:06:55 Lugonu's selfbanishment does not work in Pan (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1172) by dpeg 18:06:55 killing enslaved monsters does not annoy Okawaru (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1171) by dpeg 18:07:27 bhaak: yes, that's a good idea which lorimer didn't want to copy (understandably). 18:07:33 dpeg: I was playing the new nethack cocoa a few days ago WITH TILES! and because WITH TILES the whole map doesn't fit on the screen I hit 'o' :-) 18:07:49 I am not sure if Crawl's randarts are originaly or stolen from somewhere else (angband?). 18:07:59 randarts are a very old idea 18:08:10 greensnark: I only played NH before and NH does not have them. 18:08:12 Angband stole Crawl randarts 18:08:20 sorear: interesting :) 18:08:21 not surprising, as the whole genre is based on randomness 18:08:43 bhaak: What screen resolution? 18:08:44 greensnark: it is also an extremely good idea... it may have come up in some tabletopß 18:08:59 I think Crawl randarts are a Linley original, but they were probably inspired to a certain extent by old Angband randarts 18:08:59 morning 18:09:10 due!!! 18:09:13 Morning due on the grass 18:09:22 :) 18:09:29 One of these lives I'll have to grasp that reference. 18:09:41 Angband added an option a while ago which causes artifacts to be randomly altered 18:09:48 greensnark: did you forget? nethack's tiles come in all different sizes. Never seen the absurd tiles set with its 128x128 tiles? 18:09:53 but it's still just a table of 100 possible artifacts 18:10:08 bhaak: Oh, you were using the absurd tileset 18:10:14 Yeah, I've seen it 18:10:22 bhaak: all the better for your 9660 DPI full color storage tube monitor 18:10:25 I remember KPD waxing eloquent about it 18:10:37 KPD? Eloquent? 18:10:42 What universe are you from? 18:11:09 He's pretty eloquent :P 18:11:16 i think the word you're looking for is 'loquacious' 18:11:40 Not in this case, he made the absurd tileset sound pretty good 18:12:00 He was occasionally on-topic before he degenerated into 100% batshit lunacy :P 18:12:42 He apparently liked the absurd tileset so much he worked on changes to it himself and stuff 18:12:50 Long time ago :) 18:12:52 (: 18:15:55 rhf watching menu is much smoother than dgl 18:16:22 "... and some irrelevant misc items developers refuse to remove" -- guess who? 18:16:35 dpeg: b0rsuk? 18:16:39 b0rsuk? 18:16:39 due: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 18:16:41 Yes!!! 18:16:46 !messages 18:16:46 (1/1) sorear said (11s ago): Edmund needs special speech for when Xom takes his weapon away. 18:17:14 78291 just had Xom swap his spear with Edmund's flail <3 18:17:34 due: Oh, and valrus killed Mara and then got blasted by an ice dragon disguised as a white imp 18:17:35 rhf? 18:17:42 rl.heh.fi 18:17:50 -!- ogaz has joined ##crawl-dev 18:18:25 joosa: Do you have messaging support on rhf? 18:18:39 Not yet 18:18:49 greensnark: <3. 18:19:19 greensnark: have you seen ancardia? 18:19:43 sorear: No 18:20:18 sorear: You have messaging there? 18:20:49 Yes 18:20:52 greensnark: i think it would be pretty trivial to add support 18:21:03 With no game support no less 18:21:18 sorear: You use a wrapper script that looks for messages? 18:21:31 greensnark: by "wrapper script" you mean "screen session" 18:21:49 Oh, ancardia uses screen too? 18:22:30 78291's Xom seems pretty active 18:22:54 Xom ♥ 18:23:02 !lg rhf s=god 18:23:02 No games for rhf 18:23:13 !lg * rhf s=god 18:23:14 5502 games for * (rhf): 4185x , 278x Beogh, 270x Trog, 147x The Shining One, 126x Makhleb, 105x Sif Muna, 103x Okawaru, 89x Yredelemnul, 76x Xom, 31x Lugonu, 29x Vehumet, 16x Nemelex Xobeh, 14x Kikubaaqudgha, 10x Elyvilon, 8x Cheibriados, 6x Zin, 6x Fedhas, 3x Jiyva 18:23:13 Maybe some day I will learn to use this 18:23:38 Start scummers :) 18:23:39 greensnark: it doesn't look for messages, the messages come looking for it 18:23:55 greensnark: using a suid root trampoline program that forcibly invades people's screens 18:23:56 dpeg: I'll be debugging the weekend to see where the render fails 18:23:58 or not 18:24:42 greensnark: can you sort the servers by percentages of quitters/leavers? 18:24:49 the message system is implemented in Perl, C, and bash, it's one of the most insane things I've done 18:25:08 !lg * s=src / ktyp=quitting|leaving o=%.n 18:25:18 sorear: I was going to implement watching using the acl support in screen, but I was deterred by suid root 18:25:24 sorear: Got the source on github or somewhere? 18:25:41 I don't know much about screen twiddling, I should learn 18:26:00 191533/575061 games for *: 47509/93333x cdo [50.90%], 2638/5503x rhf [47.94%], 141386/476225x cao [29.69%] 18:26:08 greensnark: <3 18:26:24 I don't think my dtach kludge is any better for the players but it's better for the server :)) 18:26:33 greensnark: ancardia is a computer, not a program. I could give you a copy of /dev/sda1 but it would be rather big 18:26:51 sorear: You don't have your code in a repo? 18:27:17 also, the people who run irc bouncers off it might be a bit annoyed 18:27:28 No, that would be too sane 18:27:51 ancardia sounds chaotic :) 18:27:58 Need to go save the world some more :) 18:28:23 Oh no, poor 78291. Just when he thought he'd played all he could on CDO -- A new server comes and his stats are reset! 18:28:38 Also, we don't compress ttyrecs. jaakkos in a moment of insanity had a better idea - he remounted the entire chroot over fusecompress 18:29:15 What compression do you use? 18:30:01 fusecompress#/var/lib/adom/users_fusecompressed /var/lib/adom/users fuse allow_other 0 0 # /etc/fstab 18:30:08 the default, probable 18:30:19 What's the default, gzip? lzo? 18:30:22 file(1) can't recognize it 18:31:21 default is zlib 18:31:26 Ah 18:31:51 Adom sizes its map based on the player's term size, right? 18:31:58 right 18:32:36 it also allocates a global int* map_stride_table which caches I*map_width 18:32:42 sorear: curious, are you working on a patch for adom? 18:32:45 I'd like to know when this was ever an optimization 18:33:02 purge: no 18:33:44 ahhh too bad :) Sounded like theres alot of little bugs you could fix up 18:34:01 I'm not working on a patch /now/ 18:34:07 I might later 18:34:47 would anybody dare to look into Cryptic's collected DS patch and possible immigrate it? 18:35:56 dpeg: Rob was, I thought? 18:36:24 due: I hope so... 18:36:30 feeling a bit bad for Robert B 18:40:49 -!- nrook has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 18:40:59 03doy * rb84bd9182b17 10/crawl-ref/source/makefile: don't include full describe output for actual releases 18:41:13 dpeg: dcss:brainstorm:misc:stats seems to be broken 18:41:24 by: broken how? 18:41:26 03doy 07stone_soup-0.6 * r76685356c466 10/crawl-ref/source/makefile: don't include full describe output for actual releases 18:41:33 look at it 18:41:43 ah 18:42:00 thanks 18:43:22 do we provide linux binary builds? 18:44:18 No 18:46:25 could we? should we? 18:47:02 don't really see a reason to 18:48:42 greensnark: Do you want to see anythign in particular? 18:50:12 so who's doing the uploading to sourceforge 18:50:15 sorear: ancardia? The messaging scripts involving Perl+C+bash doing things to screen sounded interesting 18:50:22 dpeg: ? 18:50:27 doy: Sounds like release managery work :) 18:50:34 Plus it's a horrible pain to do, so :) 18:50:34 no permissions 18:50:35 (: 18:50:42 dpeg! 18:50:47 doy: I never uploaded anything. 18:50:49 Please not me. 18:50:52 haha 18:50:57 * dpeg hides. 18:50:57 !seen nlanza 18:50:57 Sorry sorear, I haven't seen nlanza. 18:51:00 !seen peterb 18:51:01 Sorry sorear, I haven't seen peterb. 18:51:10 They're not on IRC 18:51:33 Johanna can do it. 18:51:37 And Eino, I guess. 18:51:47 I may also have the file admin thing still 18:51:55 I can give out permissions, though :) 18:52:11 hmmm, or is 'file admin' different from 'project admin'? 18:52:15 What about the things to upload 18:52:27 doy: yes 18:52:34 doy: I don't remember the exact role, but it allowed you to create new file releases on SF 18:52:50 alright, 0.6 is tagged 18:53:01 i've got source tarballs 18:53:02 Who's doing the windows builds 18:53:21 Napkin: can you do windows builds? 18:53:44 probably just modify the existing scripts a bit 18:54:30 oh, he probably went to sleep 18:54:34 i guess i can try it 18:55:26 let's actually test them, though. They tend to segfault during saving and dying. 18:55:39 ? 18:55:39 Ok, I'm apparently no longer a file-twiddler-dude or SF has changed their file release ui 18:56:01 doy: Some cross-compiled Windows builds had problems, but I thought that was a buggy mingw version 18:57:01 dpeg: Can you give doy the file release permissions or whatever they're called? 18:57:11 greensnark: even new mingw exhibits that bug, it appears to be quite random depending on installation 18:57:15 Who knows, maybe they've fixed their release ui now 18:57:26 kilobyte: Oh, ick 18:57:48 But people have been playing with cdo builds regularly, so it shouldn't really be an issue 18:57:51 but whatever the cause, testing saving and dying is not a lot of effort 18:58:05 Is this related to the 0-mp bug? 18:58:13 0-mp bug? 18:58:29 sure, will do 18:58:31 couldn't we have tested this, you know, sometime earlier than 20 minutes before the release? 18:58:45 i've already tagged 0.6.0 18:58:53 doy: SA has been testing this forever, I don't think it'll be a problem 18:59:05 yeah, this is the first i've heard of it 18:59:08 greensnark: DOS builds of recent Crawl don't do math correctly 18:59:26 sorear: mingw, not dos 18:59:27 After Napkin upgraded his mingw and kilobyte fixed that va_list bug I'm not aware of further Windows-specific crashiness 18:59:38 djgpp 18:59:58 Might just be a djgpp compiler bug somewhere 19:00:10 You can't even compile Crawl with older MinGW on Windows these days 19:00:26 djgpp? have bugs? 19:00:33 Sure 19:00:41 MinGW crashes pretty often :P 19:00:51 I don't see why djgpp would be different 19:00:52 someone compiles nondos builds on djgpp? 19:00:57 I hate compiler bugs. I like the ground I walk on to be completely solid. 19:01:26 I can make doy "release technician" -- is that what we want? 19:01:34 dpeg: Sounds like it 19:01:53 Soon we will know if SF has improved their file release UI :P 19:02:07 It used to be perfectly ridiculous 19:02:24 Upload a file to their anon FTP, then select it in a web form from a big pool swimming with other projects' files 19:02:36 And at the top of the form a request to not attach someone else's files :P 19:03:11 -!- purge has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:05:02 yay Winblows. Upon clicking on crawl's directory: "This page contains an unknown security hole. Continue?" 19:05:09 Hahaha 19:05:13 what 19:05:22 What produces that message? 19:05:51 Sounds like Windows explorer thinking it's an internet browser 19:05:56 trying to copy a directory named crawl-win whose contents you can guess 19:06:28 Where's the 0.6 party? 19:06:56 There is no party. We all weep, typing while tears fall into keyboards. 19:07:08 I always weep while partying 19:07:08 joosa: Hell yes, there's a party 19:07:27 I will toast the ghosts of future Shoals victims 19:07:40 To the Impaler victims! 19:07:46 Who are not separated from their well-deserved martyrdom by being maddeningly cautious 19:07:52 Is 0.6 coming out? 19:07:59 due: Yes. 19:08:02 Oh, delightful 19:09:12 kilobyte: What does 'unknown security hole' even mean 19:09:25 sorear: Exactly the point, I think? 19:12:06 the new SF UI is better, but not ideal :) 19:12:24 hmm, in my build (mingw 4.4.2), saving works ok, but on quitting/dying, there's no inventory disclosure and the morgue dump is not created, Crawl just exits 19:12:30 greensnark: have mac builds ready yet? 19:12:40 doy: Haha :) 19:12:50 come on now 19:12:51 d: 19:13:08 greensnark: players will kiss your feet, and other body parts, if you provide Mac builds from day one. 19:13:18 I assumed the mac users could suffer for a few days :) 19:13:31 I'm wrapping up some work stuff, I'll get to it once that's done 19:13:43 No idea how to build Mac console build though :P 19:14:03 dpeg: now I know how you attract so many devs! indecent gratifications! 19:14:23 i imagine we want .dmgs this time too 19:14:24 the best I can offer is dancing with nurses :( 19:14:33 who usually makes mac builds? 19:14:34 bhaak: indecent? Your morale values sound.... Roman Catholic :P 19:14:38 doy: Yeah, probably best to let neunon get to it 19:14:51 * kilobyte casts Summon Neunon. 19:15:42 I don't think dmgs are particularly important or useful, but someone who can test it on 10.4 should do the honours 19:16:45 they're useful in making us look like people who know what they're doing for mac things 19:16:48 (: 19:17:04 dmgs are actually more inconvenient than zips :P 19:17:29 how so? 19:17:47 One more steps to install an app from dmg 19:18:04 *step 19:18:10 I wonder how long it will take for someone to hear "DOS support finally dropped" and tell the world "Tiles is mandatory" 19:18:24 Also, which is more important - working Mac build, or working Windows build? 19:18:36 And depending on your Finder settings, the dmg finder window may end up buried behind everything else on Snow Leopard 19:18:45 sorear: question is rhetorical? 19:19:13 sorear: Why do we need a priority list there? :) 19:19:21 dpeg: should i have file upload rights? 19:19:25 doy: yes 19:19:38 ah, i see it now 19:19:43 was getting cached stuff i think 19:19:46 or something 19:20:12 ah, good to know 19:20:20 was browsing the effing SF page again 19:20:34 sf doesn't work for me with my ad blocker on 19:20:41 which is pretty incredibly irritating 19:20:55 We should sever all ties to SF. 19:24:27 -!- Vandal has joined ##crawl-dev 19:26:46 night all 19:27:23 Vandal: hey, you're here 19:27:25 I despise sourceforge. 19:27:30 -!- Textmode has quit [Quit: Over the ages, man has been certain of a great many things. some of these things were even true.] 19:29:37 due: we all do. 19:29:52 Although it was probably good that the infrastructure was there when Erik and Darshan started. 19:36:12 need to sleep 19:36:43 Can't sleep! 0.6 wlill eat you. 19:38:09 -!- by has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 19:38:26 by is going to bed, too 19:38:59 Mrrowl 19:39:07 Ok, cao buildage 19:42:31 -!- purge has joined ##crawl-dev 19:42:34 greensnark: think you'll be able to get cao updated? 19:43:32 -!- murphy_slaw has joined ##crawl-dev 19:44:07 Should just be a matter of copying the existing setup 19:44:22 I shall try to avoid blowing it up :) 19:44:46 I'll be away all the way until Sunday. 19:45:01 So if you want a r.g.r.* announcement, write one :) 19:45:35 it's out? 19:45:58 stabwound said so :) 19:46:06 it is 19:46:27 I refreshed the page and there it was :P 19:46:36 If there's no announcement by Sunday, I'll do it. 19:47:34 someone who actually hangs out on usenet should do that part 19:47:35 (: 19:47:42 yes, I do :) 19:47:51 such as sorear? 19:48:26 the changelog is too long to be quoted on SA :P 19:48:42 The changelog contains a mistake :) 19:48:44 well maybe not 19:49:47 http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/stone-soup-0-6-0-heizolruckstosabdampfung 19:50:18 doy: <333333 19:50:25 Wasn't there supposed to be a sharp-s in there somewhere 19:50:38 wow, the crawl_changelog.txt is nearly 4mb 19:50:40 heh 19:50:45 stabwound: there is on the wordpress 19:50:52 doy: <3 19:51:44 how much is it compressed 19:51:53 So the effect of Dex on EV is not uncapped, despite what the changelog says. 19:52:02 1mb 19:52:07 in the archive 19:52:15 should get rid of that 19:52:28 changelog.txt should suffice 19:52:37 what does Heizölrückstoßabdämpfung mean? 19:52:46 ogaz: Don't ask. 19:52:47 for the official release anyway 19:52:55 due: isn't it a little late for that? 19:53:03 ogaz: It's a German word to die for. 19:53:03 ogaz: to my knowledge, absolutely nothing 19:53:09 It has a meaning! 19:53:31 oh, we ship the entire 'git log' output with windows builds? 19:53:35 that seems a bit excessive 19:53:41 yes 19:53:45 It's our buzz word. 19:54:35 okay, night folks 19:54:51 Great job, this is a good day :) 19:54:57 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: zzz] 19:55:08 Something to do with motor oil :) 19:56:15 oh hey dpeg 19:56:17 what up? 19:56:28 oh crap 19:56:30 he left already 19:57:00 !tell dpeg leave me a pm with what you needed, I am not spending as much time in front of my PC lately 19:57:00 Vandal: OK, I'll let dpeg know. 20:00:12 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 20:02:07 A beer and a 0.6. Soon up on rl.heh.fi. 20:03:28 -!- ortoslon has joined ##crawl-dev 20:03:51 -!- murphy_slaw has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi] 20:07:53 0.6 up. 20:08:01 <3 20:08:03 What about CDO? 20:08:19 probably wait for napkin 20:08:35 how's cao coming? 20:08:45 It's reached the mon-*.cc files :P 20:08:53 -O2 really kills speed :P 20:09:03 (: 20:09:06 damn, I beat you with my puny Pentium Dual Core. 20:09:24 joosa: Well, I spent a lot of time investigating cao's config before starting the build :) 20:09:36 Fair enough :) 20:10:03 My primary goal here is not to blow away something accidentally :P 20:10:20 but what's the fun in that? :P 20:10:51 Have to go to sleep soon and I don't want repairing my own messes cutting into zz time :P 20:11:46 Oh wait, have i been compiling master 20:11:55 No, ok :P 20:11:58 haha 20:13:01 -!- TGWi has joined ##crawl-dev 20:17:14 greensnark: I wouldn't mind master on CAO :) 20:20:31 aaaand apparently somethingawful is in its non-paid user lockdown mode >:-| 20:21:07 yeah/: 20:21:21 greensnark: we should build with -flto just to bog down your machine! :p 20:21:33 My machine is fine :P 20:21:45 cao is not my machine :) 20:21:48 -flto -O2 takes 23 minutes to build on a box which does "make debug" in 69 seconds. 20:22:13 Is -flto even worth it for Crawl 20:23:19 3% speedup, it's surprising the difference is so low even though we use an insane amounts of functions which just return the value of a variable or an entry of an array 20:27:32 -!- TGWi has left ##crawl-dev 20:29:17 -!- TGWi has joined ##crawl-dev 20:29:32 does applying int to consumable power sound insane? 20:31:26 don't forget -jx to get those extra cores/threads working! 20:32:43 TGWi: why should a deep elf heal more from a potion of heal wounds than a minotaur? 20:33:00 ogaz: the minotaur spills a lot of it 20:33:09 maybe dex should do that 20:33:12 -!- bmh has joined ##crawl-dev 20:33:26 hello 20:34:14 !messages 20:34:14 No messages for bmh. 20:34:23 !tv place=elf:7 20:34:24 2. joosa, XL20 DGCr, T:102823 requested for FooTV. 20:36:45 Something's not going right there 20:37:18 joosa: your upload bandwidth is too little :/ 20:37:28 It uploaded already 20:37:43 No traffic atm 20:37:50 Interesting 20:38:07 Maybe something else is the bottleneck 20:38:22 But FooTV downloads pretty fast from cao/cdo 20:38:33 What is FooTV? 20:38:40 -!- MarvinPA-2 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:38:41 sometimes it takes a long time to DL a ttyrec for some reason 20:38:43 ??footv 20:38:43 footv[1/4]: telnet termcast.org (and then select the letter for FooTV). do not use SSH. Shows games requested using !tv. Request games by adding -tv to !lg, !lm or !hs, cancel games by adding -tv:cancel to the same command-line, clear playlist with !lg * -tv:nuke 20:38:44 Dunno, it seems pretty stuck 20:39:53 It sometimes gets stuck seeking in the ttyrec, but dl is usually pretty fast 20:40:27 * bmh reads through unassigned bugs 20:40:39 The cursor jumped to the next line though ;P 20:41:06 I shall take a look as soon as I've unsmashed the cao confug :P 20:42:49 greensnark: Does joosa keep all ttyrecs in the same directory? 20:42:57 I don't fracking believe it 20:43:05 I set the wrong datadir path :P 20:43:09 Yay, recompile 20:43:16 ): 20:43:16 Linux readdir has awful scaling properties... it's like O(n^3) or soemthign 20:43:32 which is why we had to ban meow from footv 20:43:36 sorear: i can't imagine that there would be enough files after like a week 20:43:44 for that to matter 20:43:59 n^3 is livable if the set is small 20:44:05 O(n^3) is a small polynomial :-) 20:44:16 -!- TGWi has left ##crawl-dev 20:44:29 I'm contemplating brute forcing an NP-hard problem. 20:44:39 see you in an year or so 20:45:10 Now my useless request is blocking FooTV 20:45:15 -!- syllogism has quit [] 20:46:07 ko 20:46:09 ok. 20:46:14 joosa: I kicked it 20:46:21 felirx: I have queue access on a fairly powerful cluster, I'd probably only be in better shape if I had access to DoE resources. 20:46:26 Clustered crawl anyone? ;-) 20:46:29 I should check why it's getting wedged 20:46:49 I think it downloaded the ttyrec fine though, I saw it peaking 500 KB/s 20:47:30 What is the file size 20:47:33 13549568 on disk here 20:47:36 Crawl actually solves NP-complete problems on a regular basis 20:47:37 let me see 20:47:46 bunzip2 thinks it's corrupted, probably dl broke 20:48:01 sorear: Oh? I'm not sure if you're joking. 20:48:41 Crawl (PCRE) regexps, as you use in ^F, are NP-complete 20:48:59 however the problem size is small and the algorithm often runs in sub-worst-case time 20:49:15 Pretty easy to write a DOSing regex though 20:49:21 http://perl.plover.com/NPC/NPC-3SAT.html 20:50:02 Perhaps we should convert our regex's to 3-SAT instances and solve 3-SAT approximately 20:50:11 greensnark: oh.. Yeah, it's about 13 MB 20:53:22 sorear: you should probably ban Sebi then, too 20:53:39 uh, what am I talking about... more like 1 MB anyway 20:54:46 we can use some regex library without that flaw -- it's not like you need full power of PCRE to play Crawl 20:54:55 greensnark: it reports corrupted file here locally as well 20:55:15 -!- bmh has quit [Quit: bmh] 20:56:45 Woah, this can of beer was empty and I lifter it with full power. 20:57:08 !seen Napkin 20:57:08 I last saw Napkin at Fri Mar 26 22:57:11 2010 UTC (2h 59m 57s ago) saying once every few years, greensnark :) on ##crawl-dev. 20:58:40 kilobyte: Backreferences are a flaw? 20:58:55 sorear: they're certainly not necessary for finding items 21:00:19 sorear: being easy to DOS is certainly a flaw 21:00:50 kilobyte: regexes in general are easy to dos even without being np-complete 21:01:17 -!- Henzell has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:01:47 -!- Mu_ has quit [Quit: Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place.] 21:02:05 did greensnark just reboot akrasiac? 21:02:16 -!- Henzell has joined ##crawl-dev 21:02:17 No 21:02:46 uhm, how? If they are actual "regular expressions", they're limited to O(n+m) memory and O(n*m) time. 21:03:11 kilobyte: yes, and 'n' is controlled by the user 21:03:16 n being the length of the expression, m being the length of the string being matched 21:03:45 Crawl won't allow you to enter too long a string. 21:03:57 and even if you could, it's linear 21:04:10 you can already make crawl use lots of time, just hold down 5 in the temple 21:04:30 Ok, cao now has 0.6 and nothing seems to have exploded yet 21:04:39 Anybody playing 0.4, hahahaha 21:04:45 heh 21:05:08 !lg * cv=0.4 start>20100101 21:05:12 I think I might have an ongoing 0.4 game 21:05:14 !tell rax 0.6 is up on cao now 21:05:16 not that I care to lose it 21:05:17 84. Akhier the Grave Robber (L3 KoNe), succumbed to poison on D:2 on 2010-03-25, with 97 points after 2016 turns and 0:09:09. 21:05:17 greensnark: OK, I'll let rax know. 21:05:30 fairwell, gnomes and grey elves :( 21:05:48 I didn't even realize those were axed 21:05:49 last game is from two days ago... Not a lot of use. 21:05:58 stabwound: they were axed in 0.5 21:06:09 shows how much I pay attention 21:06:46 you pay exactly as much attention as those races deserve 21:06:54 and speaking of halflings, ... 21:07:19 sadly, halflings got a buff instead of an axe 21:07:33 wow, I only played about 10 games of 0.5 21:07:38 didn't realize it was that few 21:08:34 !lg s=v 21:08:34 318 games for joosa: 105x 0.7.0-a0, 91x 0.5.1, 70x 0.5, 40x 0.6.0-a1, 11x 0.6.0-rc, 1x 0.5.2 21:08:48 1x 0.5.2 21:08:49 neunon disapproves of our codename! 21:09:16 oh no, I forgot that I haven't tried putty on windows 7 yet 21:09:25 this should be horrible 21:09:36 Putty likes to crash a lot if I have X11 forwarding on on Win7 21:09:58 why does virus have to be so horrible 21:12:08 alright, only things left are mac builds, cdo builds, cdo /trunk/ page, and usenet announcements 21:12:23 "things for other people to do" 21:13:56 are 0.5 rcfiles compatible with 0.6? 21:14:02 yeah, basically 21:14:09 there are a few differences, but nothing major 21:15:09 greensnark: should update /docs on cao 21:15:52 stabwound: the changelog lists the differences 21:16:03 under 'Options' 21:16:29 greensnark: How is it up? 21:16:29 rax: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 21:17:53 doy: okay, thanks 21:20:29 rax: Built in ~crawl/git-sources/crawl-0.6, files in chroot under /var/games/crawl06 21:21:15 Could you "accidentally" get it running master? 21:21:33 For dgl I copied the 0.5 config and s/5/6/ 21:21:40 And commented out the 0.4 block 21:22:00 And I also edited those game_num=X things, whatever they're for :) 21:28:17 Time to get this release pa´rty going 21:28:51 can someone change the topic in ##crawl to mention 0.6? 21:30:40 and do something with lordarko 21:31:00 he's messaging people weird shit 21:31:12 [22:29:59] I'LL CUT YOUR TESTICKLES OFF 21:31:44 elly: lordarko is PMing spam to people on ##crawl, any way to get them kicked off freenode? 21:32:08 stabwound: Did you suggest he use a spell checker? :P 21:32:15 lol 21:32:25 mmm testickles. 21:33:00 Extraneous prompt when attempting to move into water while confused (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1173) by MrMisterMonkey 21:34:41 -!- neunon has joined ##crawl-dev 21:36:35 -!- eith_ has joined ##crawl-dev 21:36:44 Ok, I've updated cao/docs 21:37:54 elly! 21:38:07 neunon! 21:38:12 feel like making some mac builds? 21:38:13 (: 21:38:20 sorear: Someone threatening to cut off body parts on PM? :) 21:38:22 doy: certainly 21:38:22 neunon: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them. 21:38:27 !messages 21:38:27 (1/2) sorear said (2w 2h 17m 44s ago): that is to say, they forgot to run git submodule update before committing 21:39:08 !messages 21:39:08 (1/1) by said (4d 7h 28m 4s ago): Two patches to fix sqlite3 compile on mac os 10.5: http://sprunge.us/SRBa 21:39:10 greensnark: ISTR him being k-lined the first time this happened 21:39:16 -!- eith has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:39:25 Congrats on the release! 21:39:27 sorear: i think he bounces around ips 21:39:32 :D 21:39:52 I don't understand what kind of enjoyment people get from doing things like that 21:40:02 doy: need both ncurses and tiles builds, I assume 21:40:07 neunon: yup 21:40:18 "whatever should go on sourceforge 21:40:19 " 21:40:23 doy: alright, give me 10 mins and I should have some. 21:40:26 stabwound: They're nuts, it's pointless trying to understand them :P 21:41:56 Oh ack, cao scoring scripts need to be told about 0.6 21:42:20 stop breaking things! 21:42:21 (: 21:42:33 !lg * src=cao cv=0.6 s=name 21:42:33 25 games for * (src=cao cv=0.6): 10x rolfh, 4x captainhat, 2x cow, 2x 78291, 2x Ponjo, 2x Shovelmint, 2x test, 1x sorear 21:42:45 Henzell is on the ball:P 21:42:57 But the html scripts are their own animal 21:43:27 is it weird that I keep getting 'by', 'due' and 'doy' mixed up in my head? 21:43:41 neunon: Their nicks have been carefully selected to cause confusion 21:43:47 Especially by 21:43:56 Heh. 21:45:32 greensnark: it's been two minutes and I still haven't been allowed to continue my game 21:45:40 ? 21:45:50 Game froze after death. 21:46:00 Oh 21:46:15 ah, there it goes 21:46:31 What happened? 21:46:31 only took three minutes 21:46:47 greensnark: I read a scroll, 3 minutes later, the ogre hits you with a giant club you die 21:47:21 Henzell announced immediately though 21:47:42 hiscores locking maybe 21:47:47 I didn't disable hiscores this time 21:48:05 My brain is too fuzzy to poke around there now without smashing things 21:53:38 -!- ortoslon has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:53:48 -!- myuzinn has joined ##crawl-dev 21:53:59 what has the hell-hog monster changed to? or was it just removed? 21:54:06 @??hell hog 21:54:06 hell hog (04h) | Speed: 14 | HD: 11 | Health: 33-88 | AC/EV: 2/9 | Damage: 20 | Flags: 05demonic | Res: 06magic(44) | XP: 981 | Sp: sticky flame splash. 21:54:12 oh 21:54:13 Stil there 21:54:40 it threw an error in my rcfile colouring, but I had it as hell-hog 21:54:45 sticky flame splash? 21:55:11 stabwound: no hyphen? 21:55:18 @?hell hog 21:55:18 unknown monster: "hell hog" 21:55:22 @?hell-hog 21:55:23 hell-hog (04h) | Speed: 14 | HD: 11 | Health: 33-88 | AC/EV: 2/9 | Damage: 20 | Flags: 05demonic, evil | Res: 06magic(44) | XP: 981 | Sp: sticky flame splash. 21:57:18 oh, this was from 034_monster_glyphs.txt 21:58:02 giant lizard, black snake and hell-hog 21:58:24 stabwound: Did you copy-paste into your rc or did you include 034 glyphs? 21:58:55 actually, I went into the 0.6 menu and when I tried to edit my rcfile it brought up the old one 21:59:08 so I just left it as is 21:59:17 and I was using 034 glyphs before, yes 21:59:24 stabwound: but does your rc have 034_monster_glyphs copied into it? 21:59:29 Hm, not sure what to do there 21:59:29 yes 21:59:31 or is it doing just "include" 21:59:34 oh 21:59:42 it's included 21:59:56 so greensnark didn't put the files in the right place then 21:59:57 (: 22:00:44 Well, they're swimming in the big pool of configs 22:00:58 If I overwrite them with the new ones 0.5 players will get the error instead :) 22:01:07 oh, there's only one settings dir? 22:01:15 One giant rc dir, yes 22:01:50 May be different on cdo 22:02:52 stabwound: can you save and reload 22:03:04 I've sent in the 0.6 settings files 22:03:11 okay 22:03:22 Does it fix the error? 22:03:31 it did, yes 22:03:37 Ok, great 22:03:44 -!- eric_c_c has joined ##crawl-dev 22:03:50 hooray 22:04:15 I guess I can continue being stubborn and not conform to the 0.4 glyphs afterall :P 22:04:47 (: 22:04:55 Glyph changes are pretty easy to adjust to 22:05:01 I had a little trouble with the keybinding changes 22:05:17 yeah, I'm still using the old keybindings as well 22:05:17 But it's easier to go with the flow, the new things are generally well chosen :) 22:05:24 Apart from default_target=yes :P 22:05:24 !whereis stabwound 22:05:25 Stabwound the Conjurer (L11 OgFE), a worshipper of Sif Muna, last saved on D:9 on 2010-01-27 after 15627 turns. 22:05:29 And clear_messages=no :P 22:05:36 And target_unshifted_dirs=no :P 22:05:45 Those three settings are the stuff of damnation :P 22:07:25 I guess I could try using the new glyphs, but some of the stuff like the lich switcharoo will definitely screw me up 22:07:52 i use the new glyphs, except that i keep dangerous things like ancient liches, curse skulls, oklobs, etc on light magenta 22:07:55 that works pretty well 22:08:17 I have everything that was "black" set to light magenta 22:08:25 so I have pink snakes etc :P 22:08:34 heh 22:13:49 I think 0.6.x should be the last release we make that's compatible with Mac OS X 10.4, since 10.4 is considered "ancient" by Apple standards. 22:13:56 k 22:15:07 -!- ortoslon has joined ##crawl-dev 22:15:36 -!- eith_ has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:19:13 sorear, greensnark: you know, rax also has ops in ##crawl :P 22:20:01 elly: rax' +7 shield of Thesing makes her extremely elusive :P 22:20:06 @??iguana 22:20:06 iguana (02l) | Speed: 10 | HD: 3 | Health: 9-24 | AC/EV: 5/9 | Damage: 15 | Flags: cold-blooded | Res: 06magic(12) | XP: 36. 22:20:10 oh :P 22:20:39 * Madtrixr :p's because it seems to be the popular thing to do right now 22:21:33 :p is always popular 22:21:53 I have my irssi add it automatically to the end of every line I type 22:21:54 :P ? 22:22:07 I think your irssi broke then :P 22:22:21 ogaz: No, it has advanced AI that knows when not to use it :P 22:28:55 how sad, the only binaries for 0.6.0 we have right now on SourceForge are for Windows :< 22:29:23 that's what you're fixing! 22:29:24 (: 22:31:53 ... 22:32:09 edmund, with a flail of distortion and what i'm pretty sure is leather armour of poison resistance 22:32:14 you've got to be kidding 22:32:25 doy: have fun 22:34:31 stall it with spammals and run awaaay 22:34:44 i've found like 4 scrolls of blinking so far 22:34:49 so i'm pretty okay 22:37:15 doy: I haven't checked, but did you add a crawl-ref/source/util/release_ver file in the source archives? 22:37:44 pretty sure that's done automatically 22:37:58 doy: is it? *checks* 22:38:17 ah, so it is 22:38:18 neat. 22:38:25 making sure :) 22:38:30 (: 22:40:47 ugh, building sure takes a while :\ 22:46:42 I still don't see how you can use strictly bows from turn 1 22:46:47 I lost 5 arrows just doing the first level 22:47:09 and that was with a melee weapon too 22:48:37 @??centaur 22:48:37 centaur (07c) | Speed: 15 | HD: 4 | Health: 12-32 | AC/EV: 3/7 | Damage: 10 | Res: 06magic(16) | XP: 111. 22:49:23 my foray as a bows-only naga ran out of arrows prior to seeing centaurs 22:52:39 all my spriggan warper attems ended up dead before I found a bow :( 22:58:47 ugh, somehow the Xcode project got screwed up 22:58:54 the Crawl-cmd target is effed 22:58:58 * neunon fixes 22:59:07 I'll fix it in master later 22:59:19 but for now, just doing temp fixes so I can kick the build out the door :) 22:59:38 yeah, greensnark's been complaining about how the xcode project is all kinds of screwed up 23:01:52 it took me about 5 minutes to mix up a small snake and regular snake... back to 034 glyphs :B 23:03:15 But that was a 0.4 change 23:03:18 not a 0.6 one 23:03:55 I know 23:03:57 sorear: stabwound's been on 034 glyphs forever 23:14:32 @??crazy yiuf 23:14:32 Crazy Yiuf (05g) | Speed: 10 | HD: 3 | Health: 20 | AC/EV: 2/9 | Damage: 9 | Res: 06magic(12) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 41. 23:15:24 -!- neunon has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:15:42 -!- neunon has joined ##crawl-dev 23:16:03 doy: Alright, I have two builds for you. I'm currently on a crap connection in the middle of Montana, so it'll be a few minutes before they're uploaded. 23:17:37 k 23:18:57 -!- DrPraetor has joined ##crawl-dev 23:24:02 -!- Vandal has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 23:28:36 stabwound: heh, did you miss the whole uproar about randomized movement speeds? 23:28:55 well that's pretty cute 23:29:07 what just happened there is pretty rare 23:29:10 and you get a free turn now 23:29:15 but yeah 23:29:18 oh 23:29:31 that hardly makes up for being smited twice in one turn :| 23:29:54 shrug, in most situations not involving early orc priests, it does 23:29:55 (: 23:31:14 so I can make 2 actions now? 23:31:25 or does that only apply to moving 23:31:29 most likely yes 23:31:48 the idea is that each enemy action now takes speed +/-1 delay 23:32:01 and they gain 10 delay each turn 23:32:03 well 23:32:11 they gain (your speed) delay each turn 23:32:29 wait, that's backwards 23:32:32 but you get the idea 23:32:35 yeah 23:33:37 https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:feedback:speed_randomization the actual explanation 23:38:04 I just spent all of 80 turns solving a lab 23:38:19 labs are so easy 23:38:27 (: 23:42:35 -!- TGWi has joined ##crawl-dev 23:43:02 "Under this, if you desire a clean corpse or whatever, you just butcher it before you actively make that corpse unavailable. Much like animate dead and corpse rot." 23:43:14 is he suggesting picking up all the corpses you want to save? 23:43:26 oh yeah, i was halfway through a comment there 23:43:32 and then got distracted 23:44:21 I think energy should reset to a turn increment after they double act or skip a movement 23:44:22 somehow 23:45:33 it hasn't really helped much if they skip/gain a turn every time they gain/skip a turn 23:46:49 what? 23:47:06 the whole point is that their average speed stays about the same 23:48:42 Cheibriados forgives your accidental hurry, "just this once" repeatedly with berserkitis (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1174) by MrMisterMonkey 23:52:36 -!- pointless_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:56:20 -!- TGWi has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:57:40 I love that branded ammo doesn't automatically mulch anymore 23:57:55 I totally forgot about that until I started shooting ice bolts at a jelly 23:58:20 yeah, that's part of what makes hunters so much more viable now