00:14:20 -!- murphy_slaw has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi] 00:39:18 -!- Textmode has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:44:12 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 00:48:44 -!- stabwound has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:50:08 1messages 00:50:11 !messages 00:50:11 (1/1) purge said (13h 47m 41s ago): lol, I am surprised you found out what i was talking about :D Thanks for the reply! 00:55:00 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 01:56:04 ??git 01:56:04 git[1/1]: git clone git://crawl-ref.git.sourceforge.net/gitroot/crawl-ref/crawl-ref 01:56:16 duh, *clone* 02:13:13 night all 02:13:57 -!- Textmode has quit [Quit: Over the ages, man has been certain of a great many things. some of these things were even true.] 02:14:42 -!- Nobody has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:24:07 -!- Nobody has joined ##crawl-dev 02:26:16 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:41:15 -!- Nobody has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:43:33 -!- Nobody has joined ##crawl-dev 02:52:09 -!- Nobody has quit [Disconnected by services] 02:52:43 -!- Nobody_ has joined ##crawl-dev 02:53:25 -!- Nobody_ is now known as Nobody 02:58:31 -!- stabwound has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:03:20 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 03:06:51 -!- ahpla_ is now known as ahpla 03:06:56 -!- ahpla has quit [Changing host] 03:06:56 -!- ahpla has joined ##crawl-dev 03:15:37 -!- Nobody has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.8/20100202165920]] 03:43:16 -!- by has joined ##crawl-dev 03:50:29 messaging difference between gold and other mimics (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1113) by rob 03:59:31 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 04:02:35 due: Eringya's wizlab is ridiculously easy. Centaurs/centaur warriors are popcorn by that time, and that lone oklob isn't much of a threat either. 04:03:43 -!- bhaak is now known as squolly` 04:03:52 -!- squolly` is now known as bhaak 04:28:12 i like the new stairs colouring. :) 04:28:54 new as of yesterday? 04:29:04 yea 04:29:33 so much easier to see what's what 04:29:42 most of the wizlabs are a bit too easy 04:29:53 not doroklohe <3 04:30:07 ahpla: dpeg was considering of getting rid of the red/green (I guess that would mean green for all visited stairs) 04:30:45 that would prevent the blood-covered staircase impression, but I'm not sure it's worth it 04:30:59 it took me a while to notice there was any coloring 04:31:14 hmm 04:31:24 syllogism: re wizlabs, it doesn't matter to me since I always miss them anyway 04:31:48 i hadn't thought about the bloodlike appearance, that does sort of ruin continuity 04:32:22 just having a clear distinction between visited and not visited is nice though, that was my point 04:32:48 the cloud mage wizlab requires too much resting probably. It has plenty of hard hitters who don't follow. 04:33:22 so it's not hard (even if the last guy can knock a punch), but tedious 04:43:04 -!- hotsun has joined ##crawl-dev 04:55:04 -!- hotsun has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- s0 d4Mn l33t |t'z 5c4rY!] 05:05:38 -!- stabwound has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:10:02 greensnark: I just learnt that hearse has support for crawl b26 and you being responsible for that. :) Will there be hearse support for newer versions of crawl? 05:11:31 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 05:17:09 miscasting "Summon Elemental" gets me into Abyss? Is that planned? 05:17:27 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 05:17:33 Napkin: I think that's normal, yes 05:17:43 hillarious 05:30:31 *hilarious 05:31:16 Napkin: that was a top tier miscast, you must have miscast it quite badly 05:31:57 twice in a row 05:32:31 that shouldn't make a difference (except for a greater chance of being abyssed) 05:32:33 well, it's a level 4 spell 05:32:49 yes, exactly.. simple level 4 spell :( 05:33:31 level 4 spells are not that simple, you should have at least a fair bit of skill to try them 05:33:59 well, hooray at design 05:34:10 what was the success rate on it? 05:34:18 what is your summoning skill? 05:34:19 fair 05:34:36 5 05:34:48 03by * r7f411f1f8372 10/crawl-ref/source/ (12 files): Move {up,down}_stairs from misc.cc to stairs.cc. 05:35:11 but does that matter? two miscasts can happen quickly.. even if skill 15 & success rate excellent 05:35:30 'Fair' miscasts are not at all the same as 'Very Good' miscasts 05:35:31 my luck - i even miscast spells which have success rate perfect 05:35:46 'Very Good' miscasts just make you lose the mana and turn 05:35:53 lol 05:35:56 Napkin: perfect means 0 chance of miscasting :p 05:36:23 well, i've miscasting them quite regularily with the last char, kilobyte 05:36:29 *have been 05:36:54 ??spell failure 05:36:54 spell success[1/1]: Memorisation adjectives and success-rates as follows: Very Challenging (useless 0%, terrible 0-5%); Quite Challenging (cruddy 5-10%, bad 10-20%); Rather Challenging (very poor 20-30%, poor 30-50%); Somewhat Challenging (fair 50-70%, good 70-80%, very good 80-90%); Not That Challenging (great 90-95%, excellent 95-99%, perfect 100%). 05:36:54 I asked here how that's possible 05:37:35 but seriously - different miscast effects depending on how your success rate is.. is weird 05:37:43 -!- ortoslon has joined ##crawl-dev 05:37:43 not at all 05:37:57 what's the logic behind it? 05:38:36 if you're bad at the spell, you're more likely to do it really wrong? 05:39:04 you can have top-tier miscasts at excellent, too, they're just infinitessimally unlikely 05:41:37 making miscasts effect related to skill level - that I would understand 05:41:52 but yeah.. related to success rate anyways.. 05:41:52 i think top-tier miscasts should happen more frequently at high skill 05:41:52 when casting difficult spells 05:41:52 Napkin: miscast effects depend on the difference between your die roll and the minimum for success 05:41:52 if you need 5, you cannot get a margin of more than 5 05:48:04 FUCK! 05:57:35 excuse me. 06:25:42 -!- Noeda has joined ##crawl-dev 06:27:22 -!- phyphor_ has joined ##crawl-dev 06:29:37 -!- purge has quit [*.net *.split] 06:29:38 -!- jld has quit [*.net *.split] 06:29:38 -!- Iainuki has quit [*.net *.split] 06:29:38 -!- neunon has quit [*.net *.split] 06:29:39 -!- Adeon has quit [*.net *.split] 06:29:39 -!- phyphor has quit [*.net *.split] 06:34:15 -!- Iainuki has joined ##crawl-dev 06:34:15 -!- jld has joined ##crawl-dev 06:34:50 -!- neunon has joined ##crawl-dev 06:41:01 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 06:44:41 -!- Eifeltrampel has joined ##crawl-dev 06:45:44 -!- fwiffo has joined ##crawl-dev 06:46:33 Hi! 06:48:25 Can't toggle skill/ aptitude display (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1114) by Eifeltrampel 06:49:11 @whereis Eifeltrampel 06:49:11 Eifeltrampel the Sneak (L2 DrAs) is currently on D:1 after 818 turns. 06:49:24 draconian aptitudes are hidden before XL 7 06:49:33 there should be a message however 06:49:41 Ahh ok 06:50:12 thx for the info 07:07:39 fah 07:10:14 the dark gray _ is a little hard to find when canceling some prompt 07:10:42 -!- Spads has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:11:26 !tell Mu_ Can you pester someone to change the descriptor? I am sick and have bad internet. 07:11:26 due: OK, I'll let Mu_ know. 07:12:51 due: is it something simple? 07:13:43 yes 07:13:51 spinal fluid in the cigotuvi's wizlab to viscuos fluid 07:14:01 or the correct spelling 07:14:34 Viscuous spinal fluid? 07:15:18 dumping spinal :) 07:15:23 ok 07:15:45 -!- stabwound has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:16:28 ye just change it to viscous fluid 07:16:28 Mu_: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 07:16:36 !messages 07:16:36 (1/1) due said (5m 10s ago): Can you pester someone to change the descriptor? I am sick and have bad internet. 07:17:00 the short and long description 07:18:47 "It looks disgustingly like viscous fluid." doesn't seem to work 07:18:56 "It looks disgustingly viscous." ? 07:19:27 or just disgusting. 07:19:39 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 07:21:26 -!- Noeda is now known as Adeon 07:22:15 what's wrong with the spinal fluid btw? 07:22:19 03by * r14f6e5cbd735 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/portals/wizlab.des: wizlab.des: No more spinal fluid (due, mu). 07:23:03 thanks 07:24:05 spinal fluid is really thin and watery, didn't make sense :s 07:24:16 ah 07:25:16 thought it kinda made me wanna do an alternate map that has a huge brain-like structure in the centre 07:32:44 -!- hotsun has joined ##crawl-dev 07:33:48 when casting with 'Z' at an invisible monster you can't see.. does the message "Nothing appears to happen" imply that your spell missed? 07:35:42 Which spell? 07:35:59 pain 07:36:04 in general, I think it doesn't 07:37:36 that message is somewhat ambiguous 07:37:56 it is intended to be ambiguous I would think 07:38:44 for what reason? 07:38:54 you would think they would yelp or something if it hit? 07:59:09 bhaak: Crawl bones have exactly the same version header structure as NetHack bones since DCSS 0.1, so hearse support should be just a matter of telling Alexis the version numbers to support 07:59:22 hearse? 07:59:33 It'll also need a modified hearse client to check for Crawl bones filenames 07:59:52 due: A service that allows NetHack players to share their bones files 08:00:01 Ahhh. 08:00:12 Fairly popular among offline NH players 08:00:47 I used it a bit for Crawl in b26, but I don't play offline any more :) 08:01:04 Me nither. 08:02:09 but, is even the hearse server still up? 08:02:21 at least the place to download the client was down the last time I checked 08:02:37 Maybe it's gone 08:02:43 Been a while since I used it :) 08:02:51 About uh 9 years :P 08:03:38 Seems to be up: http://hearse.krollmark.com/ 08:18:56 -!- Spads has joined ##crawl-dev 08:18:56 -!- Spads has quit [Changing host] 08:18:56 -!- Spads has joined ##crawl-dev 08:23:30 -!- by has quit [Disconnected by services] 08:23:32 -!- by_ has joined ##crawl-dev 08:23:37 -!- by_ is now known as by 08:50:07 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 08:57:26 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 09:09:38 Mark Mackey says on the mailing list he's updated Zot Defense <3 09:10:20 Keskitalo: Oooh! 09:10:38 UPDATE NOW 09:10:50 syllogism will want to try it anyway :P 09:10:51 greensnark: Can you give him a reply? He's asking what he should do now. (are you reading the list?) 09:11:20 Keskitalo: Hey, I've retired :) 09:11:44 But I'd suggest merging his code into the branch we have 09:11:56 kilobyte created the branch, right? 09:12:01 He sounds like the man for the job :) 09:16:48 My elite entry vault is still in entry.des <3 09:18:31 greensnark: I tried updating Zot Defense for 0.5, but the code diverged so badly it's more like a complete rewrite 09:19:58 Oh, what's it based on now? 09:20:15 Mark Mackey's mail said it was based on some prerelease version of 0.6 09:20:37 If it's still based on 0.4, eek 09:22:53 -!- stabwound has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:23:48 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 09:23:52 Morning everyone 09:26:36 Cryp71c: Morning! 09:27:41 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 09:29:17 Not wieldable but throwable daggers (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1115) by Eifeltrampel 09:34:46 Heh, what's with all the div spells fuss, rods of discovery still exist. 09:35:10 Not good, really. :) 09:36:39 All the bad things about the spells (non-tactical, infinite supply) and nothing to balance it with (spell levels spent to memorize). 09:38:00 Keskitalo, can't remove most of the spells, they're still there for Xom effects and other hackish things. Wouldn't want to break Orange Statues :P 09:41:33 The effects are ok, the rod just sucks as an item. 09:48:58 -!- DrPraetor has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:58:42 grah, my msys env promt decided that I don't want to scroll up or anything today 10:02:50 This looks interesting: http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3155652&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=176#post374061904 10:03:11 "So this may be another working as intended thing, but currently in rc3 wearing an elven robe as a sludge elf(possibly other elves too but I've only tried it with them) gives you a rather significant casting bonus as opposed to wearing nothing. Are regular elven robes supposed to take my bad chance at casting blade hands naked and turn it to good? If so I'd never noticed that before." 10:04:45 -!- phyphor_ is now known as phyphor 10:05:22 *rolls SETm* 10:06:38 I dont have rc3 but it doesnt seem to work like that in trunk at least 10:08:04 -!- DrPraetor has joined ##crawl-dev 10:08:25 elf robe will reduce spellcasting penalty of a worn shield, maybe they're seeing that 10:08:34 I wasn't sure of the intended behaviour in that situation 10:09:00 oh 10:09:03 -!- DrPraetorious has joined ##crawl-dev 10:09:46 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 10:11:27 not sure if that makes sense 10:12:12 -!- DrPraetor has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:12:26 Yeah, in retrospect it doesn't :P 10:12:51 Hi 10:13:08 Mark Mackey is active :) 10:15:07 * dpeg feels ignored 10:15:13 (me throws a tantrum. 10:16:36 greensnark: alexis is quite eager to support new versions (it's almost no work on his side :-), even the iphone version has hearse support 10:21:43 -!- DrPraetorious has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:23:03 -!- DrPraetor has joined ##crawl-dev 10:23:15 bhaak: Yes, but I'm no longer interested in Hearse :) 10:23:24 Online play ftw 10:23:41 In any case Hearse was never really popular for Crawl 10:23:54 The only reason it is popular for NH is that players really <3 the free loot in bones 10:24:13 whereas in crawl, even old bones are out to get you 10:24:14 do you believe that most crawl players are online? 10:25:15 i have like 10:25:18 8 or i friends 10:25:20 I don't believe most Crawl players are online 10:25:23 that only crawl on tiles version 10:25:27 But I think most offline players just delete bones 10:25:39 bones? 10:25:45 Crawl bones offer a decent challenge: good xp in a threatening ghost 10:25:47 I know I love playing against my mephitic and spammal spamming ghosts 10:25:55 NH bones are mostly just "LOL, loot" 10:26:25 player ghosts i crawl should totally drop one of the items they were wearing 10:26:36 No they shouldn't 10:27:03 you dev people just want to rain on my parade, don't you 10:27:10 lol 10:27:40 greensnark: why no loot? it doesn't have to be everything the player had, but at least some? 10:27:57 The ghost's xp is the loot 10:27:57 bhaak: if it can be abused, it will be abused. 10:27:59 Ghosts give lots of xp 10:28:17 and unlike NH, Crawl xp is entirely beneficial :P 10:28:23 It's not a two-edged sword like NH xp :P 10:29:17 some clever player might make a funky ghost with just a megasuperduper weapon of doom as his only loot 10:29:23 remove all the resto of the bones 10:29:25 dpeg: but finding one's ghost is like "oh, at least that game wasn't completely useless" and then you die 10:29:25 and go! 10:29:44 bhaak: you have the NH mindset. 10:30:14 Yeah, NH bones often completely screw with the difficulty of the game in either direction 10:30:21 Most bones just give you a load of free items 10:30:22 in nethack, you have the ability of bones-stuffing because of the high probability of bones in deeper levels 10:30:28 Some bones will mess you up with nasty monsters 10:30:36 dpeg: from you, that sounds like an insult :) 10:30:54 NH bones are an insult :P 10:30:55 where as in crawl, the ghost is the nasty monster? 10:31:00 At least they could have made the ghost tough 10:31:14 Instead you find ghosts that were killed by kittens while overloaded with swag :P 10:31:59 bhaak: why does everything have to be strictly beneficial? Crawl ghosts provide flavour, nostalgia (to some players)m, challenge and xp. 10:32:17 also, major annoyance 10:32:24 which doesn't necessarily have to be bad 10:33:01 Xiberia: a ghost can you make leave the level, like any other good threat, sure. 10:33:53 We could add generated ghosts for people who destroy the bones files. :> 10:34:12 Pan lords in ghosts' clothing 10:34:13 mara traps! 10:34:19 Keskitalo: random ghosts, yes. 10:34:38 dpeg: the concept of bones with loot is striclty beneficial? I'm not talking about nethack bones, where it is way too easy to get the loot and where a extinctionist or farmer bones files will ruin your current game 10:35:14 bhaak: the point is that transferring items across games is problematic. Adding some xp is not. 10:35:20 Xiberia: Excellent idea! 10:35:39 I would second a petition that ghosts should know and talk about their demise... more flavour would help. Items, not. 10:35:46 We need mirror traps 10:36:04 Characters will be forced to spend d10 turns examining their reflections in mirror 10:36:16 Charisma stat! 10:36:44 mirror traps would give a YAFM, "You suddenly vomit!", but very rarely 10:37:09 dpeg: also mentioned on somethingawful: why don't we have power levels for blink 10:37:29 doy: yes, I read that. 10:37:34 Could be done, sure. 10:37:59 i mean, what downsides would there be in that? 10:38:49 doy: it is not fully clear how to do that properly: higher level == larger chance to blink somewhere far away? 10:38:58 Will the player sometimes want to blink shorter, and artificially reduce their spell power? 10:38:59 yes 10:39:02 i think 4.1 had power levels 10:39:24 at low power levels you would tend to blink ~3 tiles away or so 10:39:27 doy: we had this idea on SF, and there complaints that it's not always what you want (i.e. more power might not necessarily better). 10:39:34 What Keskitalo said :) 10:39:53 syllogism: how did they work? 10:40:29 dpeg: hmm, but if the player can't control which items get transferred (not as in nethack where everything gets transferred), I don't see the problem. Especially in crawl where you don't have an ascension kit checklist 10:41:01 bhaak: I am paranoid when it comes to power creep and player abuse. 10:41:37 dpeg: nethack has an option for that: echo >> ~/.nethackrc noparanoid :-) 10:41:47 All the player has to do is carry only useful stuff before autocombusting 10:42:10 bhaak: it will add very little, and potentially create lots of problems. So we don't. 10:42:13 Also on average players are more likely to carry useful things than junk so bones will be tilted towards favourable outcomes 10:42:22 greensnark: and? just limit the loot to 10 or 20 items 10:42:34 Uh, the point is they're already very beneficial 10:42:37 Without items :P 10:42:55 No reason to pile loot onto a feature that's already a net positive to the player 10:42:59 yes 10:43:00 not to me, I always get my ass kicked 10:43:07 bhaak: new players do, yes :) 10:43:14 But to experienced players ghosts are walking bags of xp 10:43:35 You should see greensnark's eyes when he spots a ghost! 10:44:11 Eyes like jungle burning bright 10:44:26 -!- DrPraetor has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:45:04 greensnark, until they meph and sticky flame you! 10:45:43 I've died a few times to ghosts, yeah 10:45:49 !lg . killer=~ghost 10:45:52 4. greensnark the Conjurer (L12 TrAE), worshipper of Sif Muna, blasted by Chog's ghost (puff of flame) on Lair:4 on 2008-07-24, with 19296 points after 25447 turns and 3:11:29. 10:45:55 All gross player error though :P 10:46:27 bhaak: you reasoning is similar to neunon's when he asked me why shops won't buy... He kept insisting that shops buying only very valuable items would be cool, but again: the current system works and is simple; there is no reason to trade that for something which easily could be problematic. Same with ghosts & loot. 10:46:53 The game is full of very valuable items that the player doesn't need :) 10:46:55 Do I have to tell the tale of doy's ghost instakilling me? 10:47:06 dpeg: doy already mentioned it :P 10:47:07 !tv dpeg killer=~doy 10:47:09 (: 10:47:11 1. dpeg, XL12 SpVM, T:25156 requested for FooTV. 10:47:12 hehe 10:47:43 My favourite is that Zot:5 ghost that used exactly two spells: crystal spear and mystic blast over and over until the player died :P 10:47:58 spriggans eating corpses, what kind of game is this 10:47:58 !lg * Zot:5 kaux=~crystal spear 10:47:58 d: 10:48:01 9. Mong the Middleweight Champion (L27 MiAr), worshipper of Nemelex Xobeh, blasted by an ancient lich (crystal spear) on Zot:5 on 2010-02-27, with 519251 points after 118435 turns and 7:03:34. 10:48:08 !lg * Zot:5 kaux=~crystal spear killer=~ghost 10:48:08 2. BoredZaure the Swordmaster (L27 KePa), worshipper of The Shining One, blasted by ihlosi's ghost (crystal spear) on Zot:5 on 2009-03-08, with 576119 points after 122122 turns and 12:16:32. 10:48:13 !lg * Zot:5 kaux=~crystal spear killer=~ghost -2 -tv 10:48:14 1. MadDasher, XL27 TrFi, T:172963 requested for FooTV. 10:49:02 !lg !78291 Zot ktyp=pois 10:49:04 1. 78291 the Slayer (L27 HOGl), worshipper of Lugonu, succumbed to poison on Zot:5 on 2008-03-13, with 759760 points after 112800 turns and 7:42:49. 10:49:07 !lg !78291 Zot ktyp=pois -tv 10:49:07 1. 78291, XL27 HOGl, T:112800 requested for FooTV. 11:04:38 -!- karmatic has joined ##crawl-dev 11:21:36 what's the easiest way to set a text background color in crawl? 11:23:33 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 11:29:39 -!- stabwound has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:31:54 doy, were you here / part of the discussion for Antennae yesterday/ 11:33:09 -!- Eifeltrampel has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:33:36 seems like setting a colour shifted 4 bytes to textcolour does it 11:34:06 night all 11:34:51 -!- Textmode has quit [Quit: Over the ages, man has been certain of a great many things. some of these things were even true.] 11:35:44 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 11:38:02 !lg * Zot:5 kaux=~crystal spear killer=~ghost -2 -tv 11:38:02 1. MadDasher, XL27 TrFi, T:172963 requested for FooTV. 11:38:20 !lg * Zot:5 killer=by's ghost -tv 11:38:20 1. Cyrus, XL24 MDCK, T:69545 requested for FooTV. 11:39:46 by: Did your ghost use mystic blast? 11:40:48 in the end 11:45:18 !learn add Antennae Experimental body-slot facet in the .7 line. Detects monsters in a 3 (5 for level 2+) radius of the player. Gives sInvis at 3. 11:45:19 antennae[1/1]: Experimental body-slot facet in the .7 line. Detects monsters in a 3 (5 for level 2+) radius of the player. Gives sInvis at 3. 11:49:22 -!- hotsun has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- s0 d4Mn l33t |t'z 5c4rY!] 11:55:13 Do we really need Xom constantly spamming with "You're a toy LOL" "You're a boring toy LOL"? 11:57:05 -!- LordSloth has joined ##crawl-dev 11:58:14 Bug, or Feature? http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?noseen=0&threadid=3155652&pagenumber=176#post374061904 - casting better in elven robes than naked? 11:59:35 bug 12:00:34 So nudists should cast better (free spirits and all) then someone properly garbed for the task at hand? I know how I'm coming into work next week! :p 12:08:52 Xom mutated me when I was on 10 hp; after mutations I was at 28hp 12:09:27 nice 12:09:43 I thought his mutation effect halved current hp 12:09:53 But I seemed to get hp -> maxhp / 2 12:18:09 Hasn't elven-casitng bonuses been a long-standing feature? 12:19:03 Yes, but elven armour used to not have GDR like other heavy armour, or something like that, so it wasn't used much. 12:19:10 Now it's the other way around, it's very good. 12:19:15 -!- ortoslon has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:19:51 I would think the "bonus" only ever reduced the penalty 12:20:57 Ah yeah, that too. 12:26:59 yeah, its only a bonus if you're in armour without an ev penalty. 12:27:23 Since now ev penalty affects casting penanalties in a (multiplicative? exponential) fashion. 12:27:54 by, I need a good idea on what a "Wings" body-slot facet would provide. "flight, flight, and more flight" is boring. 12:27:57 Any clever ideas? 12:28:16 unarmed combat wouldn't work..lol, "you beat the kobold with your wings" 12:28:29 EV? 12:28:49 mm, perhaps. Could be in addition to flight. 12:29:11 What about a hunker-type ability? 12:29:26 eg, using your wings to protect you, but you cannot move 12:29:41 First level could be like Draconian's wings; no flight on their won, but gives controlled levitation. Then flight, then an EV bonus. 12:29:53 (while flying) 12:30:05 There's only Airstike to discourage from flying, though. :) 12:30:35 Cryp71c: Could be interesting. 12:30:48 cloud immunity? 'you beat your wings and disperse the clouds!' ? 12:30:53 Its a feature that doesn't exist anywhere else in the game 12:30:57 Mu_, that might be nice 12:31:11 Cryp71c: It could also be +AC when not flying, +EV when flying. 12:31:27 +SH when not flying :) 12:31:34 Heh, yeah. 12:31:46 Cloud immunity also sounds nice. 12:32:35 Cloud immunity will be significantly more difficult to code 12:32:58 it'd be cooler if it wasn't just cloud immunity, but if it actually made the clouds move away from you 12:33:09 doy, yeah, that's how I'd want to code it, if I did it. 12:33:22 Much cooler effect, imo 12:57:26 Backdraft (knocks monster back several tiles?) 12:58:04 Or perhaps it slows down an approaching monster, increasing their move cost? 12:58:20 Like a halo 12:59:06 If draft-halo + cloud then migrate cloud. 13:00:02 -!- Vandal has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:00:19 We need a "wings of icarus" cloak. Beware sun demons! 13:04:47 -!- Vandal has joined ##crawl-dev 13:05:23 Elven Robes acting like wizardry items (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1118) by LordSloth 13:05:23 new unique: Lehudib (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1117) by minced 13:05:23 Luring ancient champion to a different floor and killing it doesn't open up hole in iron wall (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1116) by angrykoopa 13:08:37 -!- Spads has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:10:36 -!- ortoslon has joined ##crawl-dev 13:11:58 I am amused by Lehudib 13:13:39 that is a fun idea(: but i'm not sure how i feel about wizards being actual ingame npcs in general 13:15:59 -!- Eifeltrampel has joined ##crawl-dev 13:19:18 doy: I'm all for it if we get to allow Allistair as well, and his intoxication 13:19:34 He'll prolly cast from party tricks while he's at it 13:20:09 a unique with summon butterfly swarm could be really really annoying 13:20:13 especially if he spammed it 13:20:25 not too bad for casters, but a real pain for melee characters 13:20:39 Don't forget the blink and extremely feared projected noise. 13:20:50 He'd be too drunk to attack straight, anyways 13:21:27 Heal his confusion with elyvilion for a change 13:27:17 -!- purge has joined ##crawl-dev 13:28:25 what would projected noise do if cast by a monster? 13:30:39 Same thing as a scroll of uselessness, I would expect. You hear the roar of an enraged frog 13:30:51 *Slurp* *Squelch* 13:31:24 Or heck, maybe it would sound like the timer for a bazaar/labyrinth, to really mess with your mind 13:31:31 aha, that's brilliant 13:39:10 -!- stabwound has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 13:43:27 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 13:57:53 -!- nrook has joined ##crawl-dev 13:58:13 is there an "easy" way to find in crt_region if mouse has been moved? 13:58:26 or should I just make a... less nice solution 14:05:29 -!- Spads has joined ##crawl-dev 14:05:43 Evaporate creating tiles exclusions randomly (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1119) by Person Dyslexic 14:06:33 -!- eith has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:22:24 ??buckler 14:22:24 buckler[1/1]: 3 SH, 0 EV; impairs your spell success rates strictly less than losing 2.5 points of intelligence would. 14:23:27 <3 buckler with rf+ rc+ 14:24:12 oh sweet, my vaults are in :D 14:25:15 noooo, I forgot to make debug and therefore have to recompile 14:30:41 ??shield 14:30:41 shield[1/7]: In crawl, shields don't affect your ac, they impair your ev by a bit and give you blocking. Blocking allows you to block all damage from some attacks, this includes spells, arrows, melee, dragon breath among others. Using a shield also prevents you from using your off hand for {auxiliary unarmed} attacks and slows your RoF with missile weapons. 14:42:34 -!- ixtli has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:45:55 Rename skeletal dragons (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1120) by OG17 14:45:59 -!- ixtli has joined ##crawl-dev 15:01:46 -!- fwiffo has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 15:01:48 man, been quiet in here today. 15:02:54 -!- ixtli has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:06:01 -!- ixtli has joined ##crawl-dev 15:14:37 -!- kilobyte has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:14:37 -!- violetj has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:14:37 -!- purge has quit [*.net *.split] 15:14:37 -!- Iainuki has quit [*.net *.split] 15:14:37 -!- jld has quit [*.net *.split] 15:14:37 -!- ortoslon has quit [*.net *.split] 15:14:37 -!- LordSloth has quit [*.net *.split] 15:14:37 -!- Adeon has quit [*.net *.split] 15:14:37 -!- Twinge has quit [*.net *.split] 15:14:38 -!- Eronarn has quit [*.net *.split] 15:14:38 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##crawl-dev 15:15:08 -!- due has joined ##crawl-dev 15:15:08 -!- morik has joined ##crawl-dev 15:15:08 -!- zenna has joined ##crawl-dev 15:15:09 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 15:15:25 -!- Henzell has joined ##crawl-dev 15:15:29 -!- Zannick has joined ##crawl-dev 15:15:30 -!- kilobyte has joined ##crawl-dev 15:23:22 how weird, doing make debug TILES=y is segfaulting and I doubt it's my fault 15:23:56 do "make clean" first 15:24:02 or distclean, even 15:24:21 mmm now this is getting hairy 15:24:32 how am I supposed to get CRTRegions unit size from newgame.cc ;( 15:24:39 by: alright, I'll try that 15:25:27 felirx: do you need more than number of rows/cols? 15:25:42 I have currently mouse position in pixels 15:25:48 all I want is to find out where it is in unitns 15:25:56 so I can find out over what menu entry it is in 15:26:13 this sounds like something newgame.cc shouldn't need to know about 15:26:29 other option is to hack a new menuregion or something 15:26:38 since the current MenuRegion supports only full screen menus 15:27:02 and the character selection / whatever is composed from a pile of strings and then the menu section and more strings 15:27:13 that would be related to the MenuDisplay stuff? 15:27:16 btw not newgame.cc 15:27:18 menu.cc even 15:27:35 ah, makes more sense there 15:29:02 non-full-screen menu region sounds generally useful, but I wouldn't really know 15:29:13 right now, the CharacterSelectionMenu has not inherited Menu, since pretty much only thing usable I would get from that are some of the function names and the entries vector 15:30:18 -!- LordSloth has left ##crawl-dev 15:31:58 as it stands, currently the menu looks like this in tiles 15:32:00 http://www.student.oulu.fi/~jannelah/crawl/species_work_in_progress_tiles.png 15:32:53 -!- murphy_slaw has joined ##crawl-dev 15:33:13 are other menus mousable, currently? 15:33:32 those that use MenuRegion yes 15:34:13 !tell dpeg more patches sent your way 15:34:14 Cryp71c: OK, I'll let dpeg know. 15:35:24 http://www.student.oulu.fi/~jannelah/crawl/species_work_in_progress_console.png 15:35:27 in console 15:36:02 looks nice; to me it sounds sensible to have this share code with other menus 15:37:44 as it stands, MenuRegion does not allow any control where you want to put an item in 15:37:44 only it's index in the array 15:38:02 and then it prints the whole array like that, swapping column when it reaches end of page 15:39:27 alright, monster silence is uploaded to mantis :) 15:40:47 -!- nrook has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 15:41:12 Monster silence! (patch) (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1121) by nrook 15:44:44 I can either klugde the crtregion unit size somehow out of Tileframework 15:44:49 or start stabbing MenuRegion 15:46:18 -!- stabwound has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:46:27 -!- MarvinPA has quit [] 15:47:25 -!- Xardas-3 has joined ##crawl-dev 15:47:53 -!- Twinge has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:48:04 -!- Twinge has joined ##crawl-dev 15:49:53 -!- lorddarko_ has joined ##crawl-dev 15:50:01 haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaai GUYS 15:50:23 IT SA ME 15:50:27 LORDDARKO 15:51:33 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 15:52:18 -!- lorddarko_ was kicked from ##crawl-dev by elly [and here too] 15:53:38 what did he do? :-o 15:54:01 stabwound: look up a few lines 15:54:06 basically, he was trolling badly 15:54:26 I got disconnected so I didn't see any of it 15:54:38 he was spamming ##crawl and then he came in here 15:54:43 heh 15:56:06 he has the dubious honor of being the only person on the ban list of either channel 15:56:48 mwahaha, there was a kludge already 15:56:59 int TilesFramework::get_number_of_lines() returns m_region_crt->my 15:57:50 -!- lorddarko_ has joined ##crawl-dev 15:57:56 HUH? 15:57:57 -!- lorddarko_ has left ##crawl-dev 15:58:45 <3 compile time of about a minute from clean when working on code that needs to be tested on tiles and console 16:02:02 -!- Iainuki has quit [Changing host] 16:02:02 -!- Iainuki has joined ##crawl-dev 16:07:38 hey monster silence patch 16:08:57 is one coming? Does it handle the CPU problem monster halos were reverted over? 16:10:56 -!- murphy_slaw has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi] 16:12:23 Monsters do LOS already right? 16:12:30 greensnark: sort of 16:12:38 they used to actually do los, but that was really slow 16:13:03 now they do los "when it matters" 16:13:19 Right, so one or two silence users on a level shouldn't be an issue 16:13:26 I'd imagine 16:13:35 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 16:13:42 Oh wait, silence isn't LOS is it? 16:13:45 dpeg, yay!~ dpeg 16:13:46 it's not difficult to do right, just needs to be done 16:13:46 Is it just a radius? 16:13:48 you left me here all day 16:13:51 Hi 16:13:51 dpeg: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 16:13:59 The deep egg returns 16:14:00 !messages 16:14:00 (1/1) Cryp71c said (39m 46s ago): more patches sent your way 16:14:07 lol greensnark 16:14:11 ??dpeg 16:14:11 dpeg[1/7]: Der Hummer, also known as Lord of the Hummers, and Hummerdudewithbigbadclaws. 16:14:15 I see, full inbox. 16:15:13 dpeg: how do you like the highlight color : http://www.student.oulu.fi/~jannelah/crawl/species_work_in_progress_console.png 16:15:18 yay dpeg 16:15:23 kilobyte: Hi! 16:15:32 due, lol, I like due[5] :PO 16:15:33 it uses a traffic light scheme, green = viable, yellow = unviable, red = n/a 16:15:37 dpeg: vampiric weapons are brokenly good now 16:16:11 felirx: looks good! I would modify the bar a bit, but that's very minor 16:16:40 felirx: ah, can't we have the darkgrey/grey in addition to bar colours? 16:16:44 kilobyte, how so? 16:16:49 the bar colour changes 16:16:51 kilobyte: you think we should repair them for 0.6? 16:16:52 especially when coupled with mephitic and opportunity stabs 16:16:53 let me demonstrate 16:16:56 felirx: I understand that 16:17:58 even when fighting stone giants at xl16, you heal on the average 16:18:17 kilobyte: is the amount of healing larger than before? If so, why? 16:18:43 they were as good before, but people didn't bother before because of having to swap 16:19:00 kilobyte: when fighting confused stone giants? 16:19:30 tiles build: http://www.student.oulu.fi/~jannelah/crawl/species_work_in_progress_tile_NA.png, http://www.student.oulu.fi/~jannelah/crawl/species_work_in_progress_tile_unviable.png 16:19:35 in other news, ranged combat is brokenly good 16:19:36 well, mostly confused as mephitic isn't reliable against them 16:19:41 Yeah, vampiric weapons are too strong without the hunger cost 16:19:46 by: Yes 16:19:48 kilobyte: ah, so the interface improvement unearthed and stressed a balance issue. That can happen, sure. 16:20:11 dpeg: It didn't unearth it, everybody knew it was too strong :P 16:20:20 by: I know. I've been saying for quite some time that we've been improving RC for so long... it could be too strong. :( 16:20:21 and another problem, with sustenation you get food _positive_ if you don't do stash runs and advance moderately aggressively 16:20:28 greensnark: I didn't. 16:20:39 Ok, everybody who'd used vampiric weapons in the past 16:20:56 I used them, but I didn't realise they're broken. 16:20:57 really, only mummies did 16:21:14 Could reduce the wield hunger cost and drop the feedback healing 16:21:18 So, do we want to do something about RC and vamp for 0.6? 16:21:30 greensnark: why not keep the hunger cost and drop the healing? 16:21:32 0.6.0 should sail already :) 16:21:39 yes :D 16:21:40 dpeg: no not for 0.6 16:21:46 Vampiric weapons are kind of rare, their balance is less of a priority in .6 than RC 16:21:52 we can give it staff of earth treatment 16:22:04 by: of course, now that RC is officially too strong, we can think about nerfs in ways that help differentiate the styles. 16:22:12 I don't think we should worry about RC or vamp balance for 0.6.0 16:22:15 so, what, vampiric weapons were improved from 0.5? 16:22:15 ie, change it in 0.6.1 if indeed everyone starts using them 16:22:16 ok 16:22:17 Maybe one of the 0.6.x series, sure 16:22:23 I think RC was too strong in 0.5, but better balanced by interface 16:22:36 stabwound, changed, which revealed a previously unknown-of balance issue. 16:22:42 "balanced by interface", a worrying concept 16:22:46 by: balance by interface is always bad. 16:23:04 besides, it doesn't work, someone will just go and write an interhack-like program or a lua maze solver or whatever 16:23:25 and 0.6 seems to have made it purely stronger, right? 16:23:39 RC? yes 16:23:54 vamp? if you have no reason to swap 16:24:09 by: yes 16:26:37 New brands have made RC quite a bit stronger 16:26:43 I guess I'm one of the few that have always liked vampiric weapons 16:26:47 I think slings were also tweaked 16:26:54 new brands, the new mulching rules (innate and enchantments) 16:26:59 especially when it's pretty rare to get a good vampiric one 16:27:07 my CeAM is doing fine without brands, without god 16:27:09 Should we have a "balance problems from 0.6" page? 16:27:22 would be doing fine even if he hadn't learnt enchantments (-> haste) 16:27:35 another thing, TSO's wrath can be scummed for holy scourges and eudemon blades. This is probably not an issue since it's usually easier to get 160 piety rather than endure the wrath, though. 16:28:05 kilobyte: good point 16:28:11 but wraths should be tackled anyway. 16:28:29 greensnark: incidentally, my standard near-draw arena battle (10 centaur v 10 oklob plant) used to be pretty much exactly a draw, but nowadays the oklobs win easily 16:28:30 right, I should probably gone Nemelex not Makhleb in this game :p 16:28:36 by: Bow damage has been too good since 0.1, actually :) 16:28:39 and I was wondering if ranged combat had been nerfed as a result 16:28:50 greensnark: why did you never say so? 16:28:51 dpeg: was that want you meant? 16:29:04 dpeg: But it was never interestingly good :) 16:29:35 felirx: yes! 16:29:37 RC has always stacked up decently in terms of raw damage, but you have to expend a lot of annoying keystrokes 16:29:45 well, up until now, you would have to use plain ammo 16:29:52 Well, the new interface is very neat, imho. 16:29:53 in order to make it through the whole game 16:29:58 which balanced things out 16:30:19 As I said, RC got love in every single release since DCSS start. 16:30:57 I noted that there's way too much ammo around these days (on the ground). Definitely for stones/bullets. 16:31:53 Probably best to study the RC balance over some time after 0.6.0 release 16:31:58 yes 16:32:07 I'm also looking forward to this year's tournament <3 16:32:17 There's hope that 0.6 will cause more RC play, with the brands and AM and all. 16:32:26 greensnark: I am expecting more wins from you! 16:32:42 -!- dpeg is now known as drillpeg 16:32:44 Yes, once we have more play it should be pretty easy to identify nerf targets :) 16:32:52 stupid question, but which RC is this? :P 16:33:09 ranged combat 16:33:13 ahhh 16:33:17 drillpeg: I managed one win in 2008 and two in 2009. Following these trends, I hope for 3 wins this year 16:33:17 It's generally best to leave the groundwork (detecting exploits and overpowered stuff) to the players. We just have to observant. 16:33:30 greensnark: no! It should be 2^n, not n. 16:33:40 drillpeg: I don't do powers of 2 in Crawl 16:33:43 Only 3 16:33:51 And if it were powers of 3 I'd have had 1 and 3 wins 16:34:03 So this is just linear :P 16:34:05 your wins will follow the fibonacci 16:34:09 greensnark: okay, let's agree on 3 wins. 16:34:10 you'll get 5 in 2011! 16:34:33 rax will be done with her thesis by then, so tough competition :) 16:34:50 We should keep by in our team this year 16:34:59 We can break into top 10 easily :) 16:35:05 oh, no glory at all without by, yes 16:36:08 hmm, when's the tournament again? it would be nice to have a bot working well enough to get at least somewhere in it 16:36:17 maybe next year rather than this year, though 16:36:20 ais523: August 16:36:28 hmm, probably too close 16:36:29 Make right click emulation (Command-click) consistent with OS X (Ctrl-click) (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1122) by tiktok 16:37:11 ais523: not spraying water too much, I hope, but don't get your expectations too high. The TAEB boys have an easier time with their Nethack bot, imo, and look where that one gets to (Medusa, on good days). 16:37:23 drillpeg: I am one of the TAEB people 16:37:25 stabwound: if you'd stuck around for 2009 tourney cabal would probably have won best clan 16:37:41 aww 16:37:50 and much of the difficulty in NetHack relies on the huge amount of things you have to be able to deal with 16:37:53 yeah, you ditched us 16:37:53 d: 16:37:58 I'll probably play this year, but just casually 16:38:21 TAEB::AI::Planar's reached the Sokoban prize squares using only weapons, armour, and food 16:38:51 ais523: so you think Crawl makes for easier botting? 16:38:55 drillpeg: the more serious issue is that taeb's been able to do so well because we've been targeting the same version of nethack for like 2 years 16:38:55 yes, I do 16:38:55 drillpeg: We should encourage bot writers, because they will show us flaws in the game :) 16:39:08 greensnark: yes. I also don't believe that ais523 is right. 16:39:13 Yeah, Crawl bot would need fixes every 6 months 16:39:18 and that 16:39:27 greensnark: I've already had to fix it once just from updates from trunk to the .6 RC 16:39:27 in contrast to NH, Crawl is a moving target 16:39:35 drillpeg: I agree, but even an attempt at a Crawl bot will be interesting 16:39:40 sure 16:39:41 and that's just /interface-wise/ moving targetness 16:40:08 Crawl's interface is a lot more bot-hostile than NetHack's, although I don't consider that a point either for or against it 16:40:08 I am not saying it's a bad idea, far from it -- I am just disputing winning Crawl by bot is easier than winning NH 16:40:35 I agree on this too 16:40:37 yeah, I'd think writing a winning crawl bot would be way harder than a nethack one 16:40:47 drillpeg: I've got 8 scrolls of fear now! 16:40:53 ais523 will just have to prove us wrong i guess! 16:40:56 by: How many does the trove want? :D 16:40:58 9 16:41:03 by: how many still needed? And how much explored already? 16:41:05 I want to, yes, or to prove myself wrong, which would be just as interesting 16:41:17 ais523: so more power to you :) 16:41:21 ais523: is your code open? 16:41:36 drillpeg: not yet, mainly due to a lack of places to host it, and to it not really being anywhere near a publishable state yet 16:41:40 it will be eventually, I hope 16:41:44 that's good 16:41:51 open code ==> better bot, in the long run 16:41:56 yes 16:42:03 drillpeg: from the normal places, I've just not done slime 16:42:09 and I've got communication with Crawl down to a not-ridiculously-slow rate, too 16:42:14 * greensnark can't wait to see bot run on cao/cdo 16:42:17 by: ah... running out of space :) 16:42:30 by: Pan calls 16:42:43 There must be a scroll of fear in Gehennom somewhere. 16:42:51 greensnark: hmm, hopefully shouldn't be too hard, I can just reuse the relevant code from TAEB for connecting to a dgamelaunch server 16:43:09 ais523: I mean once you have it playing Crawl to a reasonable point 16:43:13 And greensnark just dashed all hopes for patient Mu botting. 16:43:15 yes 16:43:24 heh 16:43:30 drillpeg: that's clearly an exploit anyway 16:43:35 drillpeg: Hey, I ran into a yaktaur pack on D:7 with my HaMo :P 16:43:44 !lg greensnark 16:43:46 458. greensnark the Ducker (L7 HaMo), succumbed to poison on D:5 on 2010-03-19, with 626 points after 8127 turns and 0:24:29. 16:43:48 in theory, tactical decisions are what bots should be best at compared to humans 16:43:49 greensnark: survivedß 16:43:57 !lg -2 16:43:57 457. greensnark the Nimble (L10 HaMo), worshipper of Xom, slain by an unseen horror on D:10 on 2010-03-19, with 4816 points after 20162 turns and 1:20:31. 16:44:02 ais523: nah, that's a long way to go 16:44:05 TAEB::AI::Planar out-tactics me at NetHack already, within its small realm of things it knows what to do 16:44:10 Yes, I could take the yaktaurs pretty easily with that HaMo in melee :P 16:44:17 wow 16:44:22 Fortunately there was no yaktaur captain 16:44:22 and Crawl has fewer combat-relevant items at any particular moment 16:44:38 drillpeg: part of the reason is that in NetHack there's no reason to learn proper tactics 16:44:43 because you can win without 16:45:31 -!- drillpeg is now known as dpeg 16:45:32 I'm assuming TAEB makes heavy use of elbereth 16:45:55 A lot of NH monsters are also slower than player, right? 16:46:22 I can't even remember 16:46:25 but I think so 16:46:50 yes 16:47:01 although Planar not as much as other TAEBs 16:47:04 greensnark: yes, the majority 16:47:06 especially most early game things 16:47:06 once the player has speed 16:47:15 -!- Xardas-3 has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.0.17/2010021501]] 16:47:29 which is why foxes and soldier ants and leocrottas are so dangerous, at various points 16:47:34 speed is less of a massive advantage tactically in NetHack, though, because you generally have less space to run to 16:47:39 also, yeah, it's much easier to get speed in nethack 16:48:29 To be frank, I'd be genuinely surprised if the bot can make it the Temple reliably. I think that's a major feat in itself. 16:48:35 -!- Eifeltrampel has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:48:40 yeah 16:48:46 dpeg: hmm, I'll take that as a challenge 16:48:49 I'd be thrilled to watch a Crawl bot! 16:49:13 Making it to Temple reliably would make it a pretty decent player too 16:49:18 yes 16:49:19 Better than me for instance :P 16:49:25 seriously? 16:49:30 greensnark: with viable combosß 16:49:30 ais523: I disagree with speed. Getting a hit in before the monster is a major advantage, problem is - as doy said - you get it so easy. 16:49:30 Well, depends on how reliable :P 16:49:44 dpeg: Oh, with good combos it's not hard 16:49:45 greensnark: every other game, say. 16:49:47 bhaak: monsters in NetHack can compensate for that just by hitting harder 16:49:59 !lg greensnark place 370. greensnark the Ducker (L7 HaMo), succumbed to poison on D:5 on 2010-03-19, with 626 points after 8127 turns and 0:24:29. 16:50:02 greensnark: I would advise the bot focuses on viable combos :) 16:50:03 !lg greensnark 16:50:03 458. greensnark the Ducker (L7 HaMo), succumbed to poison on D:5 on 2010-03-19, with 626 points after 8127 turns and 0:24:29. 16:50:23 !lg s=place 16:50:23 458 games for greensnark: 122x D:1, 54x D:2, 49x D:3, 31x D:4, 21x D:5, 20x D:6, 17x D:$, 15x D:8, 12x D:7, 12x D:10, 12x Abyss, 11x D:9, 9x D:12, 6x D:11, 4x Elf:7, 4x Lair:4, 3x D:13, 2x Vault:7, 2x Snake:1, 2x Crypt:5, 2x Orc:2, 2x Swamp:3, 2x Tomb:1, 2x D:21, 2x Orc:3, 2x Lair:8, 2x D:18, 2x Tomb:3, 2x Lair:1, 2x Lair:2, 2x Snake:4, 2x D:14, 2x Snake:5, 1x Orc:1, 1x Crypt:3, 1x D:23, 1x Swamp:... 16:50:36 so greensnark makes it past the temple ~1/5 of the time 16:50:40 I think a troll berserker would be easiest for a temple bot 16:50:45 yes 16:50:51 the issues are with melee kiting (hi mumak), although NetHack's fixed that with speed randomisation for /ages/, with ranged kiting (which in NetHack can easily run you out of ammo/Pw), and with running to heal up (which in NetHack generally requires the stairs to be behind you or a door to close, but which is much more viable in Crawl) 16:50:58 stabwound: no questions about god, magic and an easy to use/bot god. 16:51:07 ais523: nethack has speed randomization? 16:51:11 ais523: if you're fast enough, they couldn't hit you at all if you just move before they hit you. but what player does that? ac:-40 makes that unnecessary 16:51:18 oh, for player speed it does i guess 16:51:20 doy: yes; being fast randomly changes your speed between 12 and 18 16:51:34 and randomizing player speed is enough, ofc, to prevent all the player scumming 16:51:34 monster speed is deterministic though 16:51:48 I can't think of any obvious way to scum the relative speeds of two monsters... 16:51:51 nah, because you can melee kite as though you're always speed 12 16:51:52 doy: place which i do all the time against mimics 16:52:30 doy: against mimics in particular you have the shopkeeper to worry about 16:52:45 mimics are an exercise in melee kiting with only three squares of room to run to 16:52:48 39% of my games make it to Temple depth or better 16:52:58 So definitely not reliable :) 16:53:08 please update 0.7 windows build, more than a week since the last one 16:53:09 ais523: but they're still trivial to melee kite 16:53:27 I thought Napkin had a nice script that builds 0.7 windows build? 16:53:38 doy: well, using Elbereth, or if you find a safe way to wake them in the first place 16:53:40 !tell Keskitalo please update 0.7 windows build, more than a week since the last one 16:53:40 greensnark: OK, I'll let Keskitalo know. 16:53:44 greensnark: he does, someone just has to run it 16:53:46 (: 16:53:50 i can do it 16:53:53 doy did 16:54:01 http://crawl.develz.org/trunk/archive.html where 16:54:01 !seen Keskitalo 16:54:02 I last saw Keskitalo at Fri Mar 19 18:20:42 2010 UTC (3h 33m 20s ago) saying rkd: It checks what youve found, so removing wont affect it. on ##crawl. 16:54:02 (but you should be playing 0.6!) 16:54:02 Hey Napkin :) 16:54:09 Napkin: 0.7, not 0.6 16:54:22 ahh, well, 0.6 is more important :-P 16:54:24 i haven't been doing anything about 0.7 builds 16:54:26 greensnarking! 16:54:27 i agree! 16:54:34 good job on the mac builds :)) 16:54:39 i lost my 0.6 spriggan to an orb of fire, i want 0.7 for a change :) 16:54:50 ortoslon wants new aptitude system! 16:54:55 I do too! 16:55:04 New aptitudes look a lot easier on the eye 16:55:16 yes, I am happy that by simply went ahead. 16:55:45 ...my english parser nearly broke before i realized by is a nick 16:56:04 ortoslon: by chose his nick for exactly that reason as far as I can make out 16:56:38 Or possibly it's an excuse to not respond to nickpinging :) 16:57:12 I guess he did it for the "bye by" joke. 16:57:25 Or also "by by". 16:57:34 We should start a small betting pool to cover the possibilities 16:58:01 Yes! I offer full Heizölrückstoßabdämpfung. 16:58:52 I love how things almost work. apparently get_mouse_pos does nothing in CRTRegion :( 17:01:27 felirx: ah, I just saw that you moved the undead species out (when the background is religious)... there's been heated debates over this, but I still believe that fixed positions are much better. 17:01:42 mm? 17:01:53 I used the exact same code as the 0.7 trunk one had I tihnk 17:02:10 any tiles devs here? item descriptions in the message area appear only when i move the cursor away from the icon 17:02:22 felirx: you have "Demigod N/A ..." at the end 17:02:24 felirx is hacking tiles! 17:02:28 i seem to recall the code involved in skipping invalid combinations being confusing and annoying 17:02:34 so it may have been unintentional 17:02:50 character creation code should just be rewritten 17:02:54 yes 17:02:59 first it skips out all the backwards compatibility choices 17:03:13 backwards compatibility? 17:03:21 dpeg: Removed species :) 17:03:27 then it checks if job_allowed() returns CC_UNRESTRICTED 17:03:39 after that, it checkrs if job_allowed returns CC_BANNED 17:03:48 greensnark: oh, why do we keep track of those? 17:03:49 I think it's time to lose the removed species 17:03:51 it's not my fault job_allowed returns banned for demigod :) 17:03:57 greensnark: yes, of course 17:04:03 They were around for backward compatibility with old hiscores files in 0.2 17:04:08 But there are better way to handle that now 17:04:09 ah 17:04:24 oh yeah, haha 17:04:40 old high score code was nuts 17:04:57 so by definition, the code is worknig as supposed 17:05:01 Existing hiscores code is also nuts :) 17:05:06 Just slightly less nutty :) 17:05:07 job_allowed controls the choice validity 17:05:39 I'm sad that the hiscore formula was changed due to my mummy game, and then people got scores wayyy higher because of it 17:05:42 :( 17:05:43 felirx: i think dpeg was referring to the order 17:05:53 ah 17:06:02 they're printed in the order they're listed in the species array 17:06:12 iirc the original code did that too 17:06:21 since I pretty much just rewrote it but used the menuclass 17:06:30 felirx: I wasn't aware that the N/A were added. 17:06:38 Anybody knows when that happened? 17:06:53 dpeg: the N/A has always been around 17:06:54 0.6 rc3 has N/A for demigod as healer 17:06:55 as far as i know 17:06:57 doy: yes, somebody changed the order so that demigods and undead species come last. 17:07:17 doy: it was not around when I helped design the selection screens :) 17:07:26 however, you can see that my code lists the letters in a descending order 17:07:28 oh, didn't realize that 17:07:32 whereas 0.6 lists them in a row order 17:07:36 a, b, c etc 17:07:41 felirx: yes, column is better, imo 17:07:44 easier to read 17:07:45 whereas a, i, q 17:07:49 yes 17:08:10 it was like that in TGW's prototype so blame him if it's bad :) 17:08:52 ok, the N/A at least does not hamper with letters ... so species/background letters and positions are fixed, so that's fine 17:09:12 i fixed the N/A entries to align properly too 17:09:18 ok 17:09:22 they we're 3 spaces too much to the left in the screenshot 17:09:31 felirx: yes, I noted 17:09:37 but didn't want to pester you with this :) 17:09:52 dpeg, about to head home, found anyone - by chance - to handle my DS commits? :) 17:10:03 now all I need to find is the current mouse position on a mouse event and the functionality is complete 17:10:12 Cryp71c: I had a full week, will ask today. 17:10:24 dpeg, take your time, was just curious :) 17:10:28 Cryp71c: don't worry -- everybody is excited about DS progress, your commits will go in. 17:10:43 cool, good to hear 17:10:46 felirx: er, nobody is using mice anyway. 17:10:55 We need this Wii thingie control for Crawl. 17:11:11 dcss:brainstorm:rc has a shiny new balance section 17:11:13 for tiles, when you hower over a selection, it should highlight 17:11:18 I think that was part of the ideas 17:11:33 by: you rock! 17:11:45 and if you click any entry, it should select it 17:11:47 felirx: highlight and show description? 17:11:52 ortoslon: http://crawl.develz.org/trunk/crawl_tiles-0.7.0-a0-808-g14f6e5c.zip 17:11:53 yes 17:13:22 now to find that scroll of fear... 17:20:02 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:20:42 -!- greensnark is now known as MoriascsMom 17:21:04 -!- MoriascsMom is now known as greensnark 17:25:14 Anybody knows at once how to refer to Mantis items in the wiki? 17:25:36 ??due[5] 17:25:36 due[5/6]: Thinks lichform spriggan should be 'l' instead of 'L'. Tiny lich! 17:25:41 due: Hi! 17:25:45 I should really do that. 17:25:52 Hi david 17:25:58 due: kilobyte had a formal garden yesterday. 17:26:06 yes, I saw the message 17:26:07 It is so beautiful, but also so easy :) 17:26:11 and yes, it is quite easy :) 17:26:16 Morning due on the grass 17:26:22 but I'm overall unhappy with the whole map 17:26:44 tile_tooltip_ms affects message area descriptions (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1123) by ortoslon 17:27:24 due: I have some ideas (for later): the formal garden map could have toadstools (or renamed to something else) sprouting around the player, thereby inhibiting his movement. Whereas the centaurs can shoot through "Eringya's vines". 17:27:36 Need dryads 17:28:38 yeah, dryads could be cool 17:29:06 there's this function in the codebase named get_mouse_pos(), expect it's never used anywhere 17:30:09 due: do you see? This would revert the Fedhas style against the player. 17:30:46 Yeah. 17:31:48 dungeon.cc:_has_no_floor_neighbours has a strange way to save a few lines of code 17:32:03 At least it spelt neighbours correctly. 17:33:54 must recurse everywhere allowed 17:38:24 -!- Twinge has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:38:46 -!- Twinge has joined ##crawl-dev 17:38:54 heh, labyrinth outer wall fixup is completely broken 17:39:30 it tends to fixup the minotaur vault because that's full of traps, so it thinks the walls are surrounded by wall, hence in the outer border 17:40:57 oh, it checks for "is floor", not "is not wall"? 17:41:00 heh 17:41:17 by: does it need repair right away? 17:41:36 but the whole approach is broken, because there's some minotaur vaults with solid 9x9 walls 17:41:52 dpeg: no, just some permarock in the minotaur vaults 17:42:03 ok 17:43:35 by: replied on RC 17:45:18 thanks 17:47:20 dpeg: re "Ranged Combat" skill, the problem is that it's too cheap experience-wise to be a fully-developed range combat user 17:48:19 by: we can tone down the training 17:48:41 similar to spellcasting skill currently? 17:48:45 i.e. instead of adding an artificial skill to do this, simply slow down Bows etc. training directly 17:48:57 that might work, yes 17:49:28 by: eventually, would be cool to have numbers of damage/shot for highlevel users 17:49:41 my current CeAM is too good at too many things, certainly 17:49:47 I am also not convined of the PP spell, to be honest. 17:50:07 by: do you know that we had to nerf the original concept by cryo considerably? 17:50:11 mastered Bows, proficient melee fighter, and can cast haste in (somewhat) heavy armour 17:50:17 dpeg: no 17:50:19 i'm still not convinced about arcane marksman in general 17:50:36 it just seems like "hunter, but better" 17:50:46 doy: I like the idea of adapting to situations by branding accordingly. 17:50:48 my AM is not even an AM, really; just a hunter with haste 17:50:52 doy: agree on that , yes. 17:51:15 I think AM could work if ranged combat were so hard that you required those options 17:51:31 I still prefer HaHu to HaAM. 17:51:35 I believe that increasing mulch (all forms: base mulch, less effect from enchantments, and higher mulch for branded) will help. 17:51:57 Well, Hu could be the "RC+melee" template. 17:52:14 Whereas AM would be "RC+casting". 17:52:25 But these questions were never really discussed. 17:52:29 -!- timecircuits has left ##crawl-dev 17:52:40 Most people were: "new spells, new class == c00l!" 17:53:37 dpeg: oh, re toning down you meant AM, not portal projectile? 17:53:46 by: all of it :) 17:53:49 Well, AM is no longer hideously overpowered. 17:54:06 just grossly? 17:54:16 I don't like the PP spell itself, though. It seems to turn RC into casting, which is something I don't understand (why we want that). 17:54:24 It's not too bad at the minute. 17:54:29 ??book of brands 17:54:29 book of brands[1/1]: Corona, Swiftness, Fire Brand, Freezing Aura, Poison Weapon, Cause Fear. 17:54:40 -!- ais523 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:54:41 That book is probably okay. 17:55:07 yes 17:55:21 the balance problems are more with RC in general 17:55:29 by: I believe that the mulch from enchantments should be changed from 1/(x+1) to 2/(2+x) or even 3/(3+x). 17:55:52 by: well, and one problem with AM is that it makes look Hu worse, but we can sort out that later. 17:56:05 If there's support on changing that formula, I'd go ahead right now. 17:56:39 well, it would be nice if RC+melee and RC+magic would work, but RC+melee+magic wouldn't 17:56:49 dpeg: sure, fine with me 17:57:06 Any suggestion on which formula to take? =) 17:57:14 X 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 17:57:14 -------------------------------- 17:57:14 1/(1+X) 100 50 33 25 20 16 14 17:57:14 2/(2+X) 100 67 50 40 33 29 25 17:57:15 3/(3+x) 100 75 60 50 43 38 33 17:57:27 of those, 3/(3+x) 17:57:32 ok, will do 17:57:43 by: or do you have a completely different approach to this? 17:57:57 no, no good ideas at all 17:58:43 And anybody knows what the mulching chances for branded ammunition are? They used to auto-mulch, but that got changed. 17:59:53 3/3+x seemed too extreme to me - +6 ammo shouldn't still have that high of a mulch chance. 18:00:00 Not sure on branded 18:00:13 Twinge: why not? 18:00:15 Twinge: why not? 18:00:20 There used to be no effect at all. 18:00:28 I believe that's just nerf-fear. 18:01:44 Maybe, but it doesn't really seem worthwhile to bother enchanting ammo if the mulch chance is still going to be that high to me. It's already significantly lower at 2/2+x 18:01:57 Twinge: keep in mind that there's a 1/4 chance on top of that 18:02:08 Twinge: you also gain damage! 18:02:10 doy: I'm aware. 18:03:14 As I said on the mantis page, I do definitely agree that the low end enchants help far too much for mulching right now, but the high end doesn't seem nearly as 'off' to me. I'm still in favor of a slightly more complex logrithmic function, of course ;) 18:05:32 Twinge: it's not worth arguing about numbers on the 5% magnitude. 18:06:03 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 18:08:54 5%? The difference from the 2/2+x +6 to my +6 is 28%, which is actually quite significant. Enchanting 50 arrows up to +6, that's an extra 200 shots you get to make before it all mulches 18:09:13 we are interested in increasing mulch 18:11:24 err, this makes no sense 18:11:33 skill and memorize menu uses CRTRegion 18:11:38 drop menu uses MenuRegion 18:11:45 Of course. I just don't see such an extreme change on the high end being warranted. Going from current to 3/3+x is the difference in getting 700 shots versus getting 300 shots. I agree it's too low right now, I just don't agree with the degree of change =) 18:13:12 but you do much more damage with +6, too 18:13:16 so you need fewer shots 18:14:00 dpeg: I think Tanksley is right about losing focus from having too many Crawl variants maintained by the devteam :) 18:14:04 True, though it's never felt drastic in-game to me. Maybe I should try to quantify that and stack the data for a better overall picture 18:14:12 -!- Vandal has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:14:27 greensnark: the idea is not that the devteam cares about the variants. 18:14:38 Twinge: we have many reports that mulching is too low. 18:15:00 Well, the problem is that as long as its in the official repo it's more or less devteam responsibility 18:15:31 greensnark: well, I knew it was easy with Sprint... 18:15:40 It might be better to spin off Sprint and Zot Defense as top-level repos, I'm unsure 18:15:45 ...if ZotDef is too hard, it has to be maintained in parallel 18:15:46 They can always merge from main Crawl as required 18:15:52 yes 18:16:16 As I said, the first goal should be to get ZotDef back on the server. 18:16:25 So that people can play it. 18:16:31 Did Mark have a link to his repo? 18:17:05 greensnark: that sounds pretty painful 18:17:17 doy: Depends on who's doing the work 18:17:46 I don't see a problem with tracking branches in the official repo 18:17:53 But the official repo should not be the standard for all variants 18:18:07 -!- Vandal has joined ##crawl-dev 18:18:08 Unless we're going to assimilate variant maintainers into the team 18:18:39 grah, if I want to use CRTRegion for this menu, I have to go and stab all the other things using CRTRegion to ignore CK_MOUSE_MOVE 18:18:59 And I'm pretty unenthusiastic about one unified binary that contains all the variants 18:19:00 greensnark: well, i merged in sprint like i said, because it was like 6 or 7 changes 18:19:11 greensnark: yes, that's why I supported a branch for zotdef 18:19:12 Sprint's a different story, it's very similar to mainline 18:19:15 yes 18:19:16 and i didn't think that would be a significant drain on dev resources 18:19:34 If we just keep a branch tracking someone else on github it's not a drain on dev resources 18:19:55 But if the variant maintainer has to commit to the main crawl repo to make changes, that's not going to work :) 18:19:57 greensnark: well, my point being that someone's going to have to be watching that branch for conflicts all the time 18:19:59 Unless they're on the team 18:20:15 which is a pretty serious effort 18:20:22 considering how much the crawl codebase changes 18:20:37 i don't think that's really sustainable long-term 18:20:45 doy: Yes, but the buck has to go somewhere, and the team having to constantly update all the variants is also not sustainable :) 18:21:16 If ZotDef is actively maintained by a third party, we can't maintain it in-tree without absorbing the third party 18:21:40 I mean ongoing work on ZotDef, not just a one-off bugfix and cleanup binge 18:21:53 A real live variant would get constant work on it from its maintainer 18:26:03 03dpeg * r5bb00a2810e4 10/crawl-ref/source/item_use.cc: Nerf anti-mulching effect from missile enchantments. 18:27:03 dungeon.cc:_change_labyrinth_border is broken (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1124) by rob 18:31:07 -!- by has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:31:22 should I just flat out bite it and add an extra layer or something 18:31:31 or really make CRTRegion support mouse movement 18:31:50 the latter has the benefit of perhaps allewing mouse selection in a way in the menus 18:31:54 felirx: cannot help you :( 18:32:00 *faq etc menus even 18:32:19 you would need jpeg 18:32:26 or enne 18:32:28 I see her tomorrow :) 18:32:51 right now it exits shops if you move the mouse 18:33:00 I doubt that's intented behaviour :D 18:33:39 felirx: mouse-users don't shop much anyway :) 18:33:57 it also closes memorise screen if you move mouse :) 18:34:18 tht is problematic 18:34:35 memorise screen is a menu of a sort 18:34:42 ... expect it uses crt-region instead of menuregion 18:35:20 okay, sleep now 18:35:26 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: zzz] 18:35:49 dpeg: Okay, checking the damage, it is significant enough that my current proposed formula is still too generous. Now I'm looking at a formula between the 2/2+x and the 3/3+x, that leans towards 3/3+x for lower enchants and towards 2/2+x for higher enchants. 18:35:52 Oh bleh :P 18:40:08 -!- murphy_slaw has joined ##crawl-dev 18:45:31 -!- murphy_slaw has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi] 18:47:09 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:49:40 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 18:49:44 -!- murphy_slaw has joined ##crawl-dev 18:50:40 -!- purge has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:55:26 !tell Napkin Have you noticed any incidents of Crawl 0.6 eating too much RAM? 18:55:27 greensnark: OK, I'll let Napkin know. 19:04:56 -!- Enne has joined ##crawl-dev 19:05:21 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:09:51 Enne: I'm having a slight problem with the starting menu. 19:09:57 I have pretty much three options 19:10:09 (The starting menu is a total hack, in terms of tiles support.) 19:10:09 Enne: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 19:10:12 !messages 19:10:12 (1/1) purge said (1d 23h 16m 58s ago): is it a bug that all the "unique" monsters in the fleshlab wizlab draw their names over their head like normal uniques? such as "monstrous orc" and "deformed human"? 19:10:13 Currently, as you know all the starting menus use the CRTRegion 19:10:26 option A), hack CRTRegion to support mouse properly 19:10:34 B) make a new region for the starting menus 19:10:44 B) hack menuregion somehow 19:11:16 the code is currently in this state : http://www.student.oulu.fi/~jannelah/crawl/species_work_in_progress_tiles.png 19:11:28 next I would need to add mouse hover over and mouse click on item 19:12:06 Option A might not be so bad. 19:12:11 however, if I make CRTRegion return CK_MOUSE_MOVE, it breaks all sorts of fun menus 19:12:18 like FAQ exits if yuo move the mouse 19:12:26 Yeah, you wouldn't return CK_MOUSE_MOVE. 19:12:43 Returning something from a menu says "this is input I want to return to Crawl". 19:12:45 how should I go about finding mouse move events? 19:12:54 -!- ogaz has joined ##crawl-dev 19:13:12 You could still handle it (by highlighting stuff, etc...) and only returning something (the key of the menu item) when a user clicks. 19:13:22 mmm 19:13:28 so I could add a new function to crtregion 19:13:29 handle_mouse_move (or whatever) is still the right place to do it. Just don't return something unless you mean it. ;) 19:13:30 !coffee Enne 19:13:31 * Henzell hands Enne a pot of irish coffee, brewed by Crazy Yiuf. 19:13:36 something like add_entry 19:13:42 Mmm...chaotically tasty. 19:13:56 so that I can flag the actual choosable options as choosable and not as just regular text 19:14:29 Yeah, something like that. 19:14:44 We're probably going to want to do something similar for the status pane too. 19:14:49 ...if that helps abstract the problem for you. 19:14:59 it's easy once I can do that 19:15:09 although... 19:15:14 the description text needs to change 19:15:17 on the highlight 19:15:30 or should we have the description text as a tooltip on tiles 19:15:56 Yeah. You'd need to handle those virtual subregions in both the tooltip and the mouse handling functions. 19:16:12 I'd actually prefer it on-screen. 19:16:41 (Sorry, those two sentences don't make sense. In the status menu, we'd want to handle the tooltip and the mouse move. In the selection screen, we probably only need mouse move. I'd prefer that on-screen.) 19:16:55 then it's a question of how to update it so that it's general 19:17:09 and not a dirty hax 19:17:57 technically, if I make crt-region work like this, we can rewrite the help menu to support mouse clicks 19:18:09 Absolutely. 19:18:44 which would be a worthy side effect :) 19:19:33 You want different behavior per-region type. 19:19:47 One option is subclassing some "clickable CRT", but then we have a bunch more regions to switch between. 19:20:01 mm 19:20:08 that was my initial plan 19:20:23 do we have anything using CRT region that must not be clickable? 19:20:45 An alternative is to pass along some closure as data to do different things depending on which region the CRT currently is. 19:21:08 'm' screen is probably bad if it exits after changing only one entry 19:22:42 I doubt it wouldn't hurt to have clickable shops either 19:23:09 Mmm...clickable shops. 19:23:14 This feature is sounding better all the time. 19:23:55 what if we had a method something like click_mode(enum_flag) or something 19:24:02 which controlled if we can select multiple etc 19:25:39 What if you had some custom function that handled clicks? 19:25:59 If it's a multiple-click region, you could allow selecting multiple things. If not, you could deselected a previously selected one. 19:26:10 passing a function pointer? 19:26:21 Or overriding a virtual. 19:26:25 Something like that. 19:26:30 Custom per-type logic. 19:26:47 mm 19:26:59 if we have a process input, that takes a flag 19:27:00 You're going to need that anyway for handling showing descriptions and tooltips, I think. 19:27:02 and then calls a private? 19:31:43 Go for whatever makes sense. 19:32:02 I think as long as there's no "switch (what_region_type_am_i)" logic, I won't complain. :) 19:32:42 are you suggesting we inherited a few CRT regions 19:32:57 and then replace the current CRT region by some call before we start writing eg a shop 19:33:20 that would get rid of the switch() at least :D 19:34:27 or we could keep a stack of possible CRTRegions, and switch the active one with a call, kinda like a state manager 19:46:04 Yeah, I could see starting a shop and setting a current CRT region before doing so. 19:48:22 -!- neunon has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:49:12 now only question is, can we prevent the #ifdef mess that will ensue 19:49:38 if we make the add_entry(MenuEntry*, int x, int y) add an selectable entry to CRT 19:50:15 are we going to have to do #ifndef USE_TILES cgotoxy(...) cprintf(...) #else add_entry(...); 19:51:16 You could localize the #ifdef to the add_entry function. 19:51:24 It's not great, but I think you're going to have to have an #ifdef somewhere. 19:51:41 That, or we need a lot more modifications to the way menus and tiles interact. 19:51:59 In other words, call add_entry all the time, but only do something for tiles. 19:52:23 or call regular cgotoxy / cprintf, which one is cleaner? 19:52:39 Yeah, whatever makes sense. :) 19:52:42 although if add_entry is in tilereg.h... 19:52:51 Are all of these things menus? 19:53:03 the starting screens will be at least 19:53:17 I'm not sure how shops, the 'm' screen etc work right now 19:53:20 On the other hand, making everything else a menu is probably a good goal as well, so maybe that's not a bad restriction. 19:53:37 I'm pretty sure something we've discussed isn't a real menu, but just pretends to be. 19:53:46 (Can't remember which, though.) 19:54:05 if you make eg console shop a proper menu, you can have the highlight cursor move around 19:54:12 and allow you to eg. tag items with space to be bought 19:56:22 if shops etc get converted to menus, we can have the MenuClass from menu.cc call the add_entry 19:56:34 or just cprintf to screen 19:56:41 is there a reason we can't convert the console code to use real menus too? 19:56:45 -!- murphy_slaw has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi] 19:56:54 only the extra work ;) 19:59:35 -!- neunon has joined ##crawl-dev 20:00:11 (my personal mission is to get rid of the goto()'s in choose_species and choose_background) :) 20:00:15 It still seems like the right way to go. Convert to MenuClass and have it call add_entry. 20:00:28 goto considered harmful considered overrated, in my opinion. ;) 20:00:43 it's used in a place where a simple input while loop works... 20:00:54 Fair enough. :) 20:01:12 there are some cases for goto 20:01:16 but they are rare 20:02:25 it's true that they might not be optimal there, but i'm not quite sure why it gets you so worked up d: 20:02:43 (I certainly miss Perl's loop labels in C++.) 20:04:16 yup 20:07:07 Erk, I need to run. 20:07:19 I'm excited to see the new starting menus in action, though. That'll be a great change. :) 20:07:24 -!- Enne has quit [Quit: *poof*] 20:07:42 should CRT region stay as a flat out one screen view 20:07:46 or should it support paging 20:08:19 my opinion is that all the menus that use crt region should fit to a single view 20:09:09 or if they need paging, it should be implemented by the menuclass, and not by the crt 20:19:14 -!- Iainuki_ has joined ##crawl-dev 20:19:29 -!- murphy_slaw has joined ##crawl-dev 20:20:20 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 20:35:51 -!- st_ has quit [] 20:37:35 -!- syllogism has quit [] 20:43:07 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 20:51:53 -!- Mu_ has quit [Quit: Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place.] 20:56:31 -!- karmatic has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:00:37 -!- ortoslon has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:06:53 -!- murphy_slaw has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi] 21:24:54 -!- murphy_slaw has joined ##crawl-dev 21:35:23 -!- purge has joined ##crawl-dev 21:44:08 -!- murphy_slaw has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi] 21:59:23 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 22:05:03 -!- Iainuki_ has quit [Quit: Iainuki_] 22:10:55 -!- eith has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:28:45 -!- ortoslon has joined ##crawl-dev 22:45:48 -!- ogaz has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6/20100115144158]] 23:17:48 -!- ortoslon has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:36:12 -!- purge has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]