00:02:14 Mornin. 00:11:58 -!- pointless_ has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6/20100115144158]] 00:12:39 !tell Cryp71c Your patch is in. However, I would appreciate it if you never again 1. include tabs in a patch, 2. commit without updating submodules, 3. add whitespace at the end of lines, or 4. use an indentation amount different from surrounding code. Help will be gladly provided if you'd ask *before* making the patch; neunon, doy, and I can do git issues reasonably well 00:12:39 Maximum message length is 300 characters. Eschew verbosity, Gladys! 00:20:39 -!- permagreen has joined ##crawl-dev 00:45:22 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:53:58 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 00:58:32 -!- permagreen has quit [Quit: Welcome to the real world] 01:13:35 -!- by has joined ##crawl-dev 01:16:13 sorear: lol. That was the first thing on Enne's email to me. Took me about a day to clean up my code xD 01:59:59 Do we have a patch submission guide somewhere? 02:03:26 Yeah, there's some txt files about coding conventions, patching, etc. 02:10:48 Where are the coding convention guides? 02:11:01 Also, neunon: http://github.com/ixtli/crawl/tree/ipad/crawl-ref/ 02:11:24 neunon: I've been applying enne's critiques, tell me what you think. 02:11:54 My changes to the makefile are probably pretty hacky, but I'm not really good with build tools. 02:23:29 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 02:23:33 i'm here ! 02:23:43 22:16 <+sorear> !tell Cryp71c Your patch is in. However, I would appreciate it if you never again 1. include tabs in a patch, 2. commit without updating submodules, 3. add whitespace at the end of lines, or 4. use an indentation amount different from surrounding code. Help will be gladly provided if you'd ask *before* making the patch; neunon, doy, and I can do git issues reasonably well 02:24:44 ixtli: I'll look in a moment. :) 02:26:24 sorear, yeah I had read the coding practices text a long while back, the system I was wokring on must've swapped in tabs everywhere instead of spaces, that shouldn't happen again, and yeah..2 was just my fault -_- 02:33:06 -!- neunon has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:37:13 -!- Erisdiscordia has joined ##crawl-dev 02:45:26 -!- neunon has joined ##crawl-dev 02:45:50 neunon: :D I'm working on making FTFont an abstract base class just like my UIWrapper and friends. 02:46:10 Neat. 03:00:42 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 03:11:13 yo 03:14:31 hio 03:17:37 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:31:21 eres 03:31:47 -!- by has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 03:35:23 Why were zigs changed to generate potions as loot 03:35:31 It makes them unnecessarily easy :P 03:35:42 hey, greensnark, look who recently returned 03:35:54 Who? 03:36:06 00:41 -!- Erisdiscordia [~Erik@30-233-207-85.jizmorava.adsl-llu.static.bluetone.cz] has joined ##crawl-dev 03:36:33 Oh yes, I said hi yesterday 03:36:37 we chatted last night yeah 03:47:13 -!- Ero_ has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:47:40 -!- Twinge has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:47:49 -!- Twinge has joined ##crawl-dev 03:57:18 -!- Xardas-3 has joined ##crawl-dev 04:00:04 Magical branded weapon are wrong identified (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1060) by Eifeltrampel 04:14:05 I've encountered some bug - loaded my "long-time-ago" created lvl1 KoIE and he has lost ability to eat rotten meat (and carnivorous), now he has some strange abilities: 04:14:07 You recuperate from illness quickly. 04:14:08 You regenerate. 04:14:10 You are surrounded by a moderate repulsion field (EV +3). 04:16:44 ixtli: okay, sorry it took so long, I'm just about to start looking at your proposed changes :) 04:17:21 -!- ortoslon has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:17:39 Xardas-3, looks like the mutations have been changed around but save version wasn't, somehow 04:24:04 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 04:28:02 ixtli: read your /msgs if you are around :) 04:29:14 -!- ortoslon has joined ##crawl-dev 04:56:58 -!- ortoslon has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:11:01 -!- ortoslon has joined ##crawl-dev 05:53:18 -!- Ashenzari has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:53:53 -!- Ashenzari has joined ##crawl-dev 05:53:53 -!- The topic of ##crawl-dev is: DCSS development channel! | Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki | Ashenzari source: http://github.com/doy/crawlbot 05:53:53 -!- Ashenzari has quit [Client Quit] 05:54:26 -!- Ashenzari has joined ##crawl-dev 05:54:26 -!- The topic of ##crawl-dev is: DCSS development channel! | Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki | Ashenzari source: http://github.com/doy/crawlbot 06:13:55 Snark which is green! 06:23:26 > And, are Orbs of Fire faster than Spriggans? 06:23:27 A hasted Spriggan can outflank the orb. If you change direction, such 06:23:27 as go around a corner, it will go by you. But I don't think you can 06:23:27 actually outrun it. 06:23:31 <3 rgrm 06:25:00 !lg killer=orb of fire 06:25:10 2. bookofjude the Politician (L27 SpBe), worshipper of Trog, blasted by an orb of fire (fireball) on Zot:5 on 2009-06-29, with 571317 points after 143877 turns and 8:33:34. 06:25:13 Short answer: no. 06:33:59 that's odd... reached d:4 from d:2 via a shaft, returned to d:3, tried to travel to d:2 after revealing stairs, and travel didn't know how to get there 06:34:21 Had you used and D:2->D:3 stairs? 06:34:25 no 06:34:38 then it probably doesn't actually know 06:34:51 shouldn't it though? 06:34:58 where ELSE would they lead? 06:35:11 it's obviously never been coded 06:35:15 shafts are fairly new 06:35:20 true 06:35:31 give us a formal FR and it will not get lost 06:35:45 BR more appropriate, no? 06:35:56 I suppose 06:36:35 !killsby Donald 06:36:37 17 games for * (ckiller=Donald): 1x Manslay, 1x Lemuel, 1x Sebi, 1x greensnark, 1x MrPeeps, 1x splat, 1x murphyslaw, 1x Eronarn, 1x Spelunker, 1x Nexos, 1x wolverian, 1x coweater, 1x saren, 1x Toad, 1x MarvinPA, 1x yap, 1x N78291 06:36:48 !lg * killer=Donald x=cv,src 06:36:49 17. [cv=0.6-a;src=cdo] murphyslaw the Archer (L11 KoAr), worshipper of Nemelex Xobeh, slain by Donald (a +0,+3 scimitar of slicing) on Orc:4 on 2010-02-23, with 9000 points after 12932 turns and 1:16:44. 06:36:56 !lg * killer=Donald x=cv,src -2 06:36:57 16. [cv=0.6-a;src=cdo] greensnark the Archer (L14 DEHu), worshipper of Elyvilon, slain by Donald (a +5,+3 demon blade of pain) on Snake:1 on 2010-02-19, with 51303 points after 44410 turns and 4:34:11. 06:37:07 Huh. 06:37:21 That is a *nice* weapon. 06:37:48 !lg * killer=Donald src=cdo cv=0.6-a s=name 06:37:49 6 games for * (killer=Donald src=cdo cv=0.6-a): 1x saren, 1x MarvinPA, 1x N78291, 1x Lemuel, 1x greensnark, 1x murphyslaw 06:37:55 Go new Donald! 06:42:04 sorear, you're right... done. 06:42:26 didn't see the BR suggestion, so FRed it 06:42:47 besides, i wanted to be diplomatic in case someone felt that travel had a moral need to be confused by this :) 06:45:21 You can blame most of the travel stuff on Darshan :) 06:45:24 greensnark, fix it! 06:45:54 Make Travel know that branch:x+1 leads to branch:x even if stairs not yet used (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1061) by erisdiscordia 06:46:19 Erisdiscordia: Have you died to Crazy Yiuf yet? 06:46:54 don't think so 06:47:07 i always travel-exclude him... stealthy pcs 06:47:48 hey, i was around when he first added it 06:48:04 but if he were blamed for this one, then he'd be 06:48:08 *SUNGLASSES* 06:48:11 ...shafted. 06:49:19 woo! earthquake 06:52:28 Travel knows that X:y+1 upstairs goes to X:y 06:52:35 That's why you can use G< and G> 06:52:38 I should very rarely make him appear outside of the cottage. 06:52:55 didn't for me just now 06:53:09 Were you asking travel to go to a specific spot on the previous level? 06:53:18 no, the left in general 06:53:21 level* 06:53:23 Ok, then that's a bug 06:53:38 Barring excludes or other weirdness 06:53:57 If you have an exclude on D:2 travel will refuse to take unknown stairs from D:3 to D:2 06:53:57 no staircase excludes, those require too much thought 06:54:05 *any* exclude 06:54:12 hmmm 06:54:14 Because travel doesn't know where the stairs go 06:54:44 yes, the level had (has) an exclude 06:54:54 New Crawls helpfully spam auto excludes so this is quite common 06:55:14 unfortunately, the message isn't helpful here 06:55:25 i mean, in explaining why travel's failing 06:55:29 Yes 06:55:44 Travel could use better error reporting 06:55:53 And better handling of things like place-under-plant 06:58:56 -!- neunon has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:59:03 ok, corrected the FR, thanks greensnark 06:59:42 greensnark: Yes, someone couldn't find the Orc entrance 'cos it was unedr a plant. 07:02:35 Yes, that's quite common 07:02:44 Did I tell you about my Crypt Mara encounter :P 07:02:52 I had to flee twice 07:03:06 @whereis greensnark 07:03:06 greensnark the Destroyer (L25 MuPr), a worshipper of Yredelemnul, saved on Zot:1 on 2010-03-10 after 163575 turns. 07:03:08 Third time my illusion put in some excellent work to wear down Mara's hp with IOOD 07:03:27 Monsters with haste + IOOD are hilarious :P 07:03:33 They have no clue how to use IOOD :P 07:04:30 Niice. 07:04:55 I'm assuming Mara's going to have a nasty reputation come 0.6. 07:06:26 He's rather easy to run away from 07:07:15 many players dont run away from things 07:07:21 not manly 07:07:30 Margery chased me away a few times :/ 07:07:49 And that was with me filling the level with mephitic cloud :P 07:07:55 due did you try out my vestibule 07:08:44 Is the new Vestibule in master yet 07:08:53 * greensnark wants to take a look. 07:10:16 Mu_: I was going to put it in today, but David told me he was doing ti. 07:10:33 ti and biscits! 07:11:46 -!- by has joined ##crawl-dev 07:14:55 -!- neunon has joined ##crawl-dev 07:19:53 * due sleep. 07:20:08 -!- by has quit [Disconnected by services] 07:20:09 -!- by_ has joined ##crawl-dev 07:41:01 -!- GrimmSleeper is now known as GrimmSweeper 07:46:23 is it a bug that duvessa doesn't follow you upstairs? 07:46:37 -!- hotsun has joined ##crawl-dev 07:47:39 cbus: I think it's intentional, but probably needs a message 07:47:41 03by * r20d953477704 10/crawl-ref/source/ (it_use2.cc it_use2.h transform.cc): Revert "Fix missed unwield effects when transforming." 07:47:44 03by * re2f331b0bfac 10/crawl-ref/source/transform.cc: Revert "Fix permanent stat loss for Che worshippers when transforms cause ponderous items to meld (syllogism)." 07:47:45 03by * r9a7f85e4145b 10/crawl-ref/source/ (12 files): Concentrate equipping/unequipping in player-equip.cc. 07:47:49 03by * rebad4a412b34 10/crawl-ref/source/ (player.cc player.h tags.cc tags.h): New field player::melded. 07:47:50 03by * r99e780fbda1d 10/crawl-ref/source/ (6 files): Update melding code around item_is_equipped. 07:47:51 03by * rd401d1562191 10/crawl-ref/source/ (actor.h monster.h player.h): Default actor::slot_item argument include_melded to false. 07:47:52 03by * ra132e05fa836 10/crawl-ref/source/player.cc: Convert player_wearing_slot and player::slot_item to use you.melded. 07:47:56 03by * redeb9915c085 10/crawl-ref/source/ (7 files): Replace many uses of you_tran_can_wear. 07:49:39 doy: modulo bugs, this should fix transformation/che-related stat changes 07:50:40 doy: I've tried to keep the changes small, with limited success 08:13:14 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 08:18:06 -!- timecircuits has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:30:08 -!- by_ is now known as by 08:47:40 -!- Antagonist has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:48:52 03by * r5cd127b562eb 10/crawl-ref/source/player-equip.cc: Fix player-equip asserts when dealing with rings. 08:49:21 -!- Antagonist has joined ##crawl-dev 09:02:47 by: was mlist targeting fixed? 09:03:49 and is anyone planning on looking into the slow tiles issue? 09:04:27 i'm going to get another rc released either tonight or tomorrow 09:06:39 my vampire's cursed weapon is preventing batform, despite a levelup message that says cursed equipment now melds when entering batform 09:06:43 any idea what gives? 09:10:22 the message probably should say "cursed armour now melds", i don't know that we implemented melding weapons 09:10:28 although i could be wrong 09:11:37 who would know for sure? 09:11:48 so i don't post a pointless/off-base FR/BR 09:16:09 -!- pointless_ has joined ##crawl-dev 09:26:52 by would 09:31:42 -!- Enne has joined ##crawl-dev 09:42:44 -!- purge has joined ##crawl-dev 09:58:38 thanks 09:59:27 !tell by should cursed weapons meld for batform after clevel 10? they aren't, and the levelup message implies that they ("equipment") are 09:59:28 Erisdiscordia: OK, I'll let by know. 10:03:59 -!- karmatic has joined ##crawl-dev 10:23:34 -!- timecircuits has joined ##crawl-dev 10:23:53 -!- timecircuits has left ##crawl-dev 10:27:18 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 10:50:04 -!- Amonchakad has joined ##crawl-dev 10:52:49 How good is the Orb of Destruction in the latest trunk? and how balanced is it? 10:57:08 -!- hotsun has quit [Quit: Want to be different? Try HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <-] 10:58:57 it's pretty awesome 10:59:08 but i don't think it's crazy overpowered anymore 11:01:22 sucks point-blank, but otherwise as good as before, minus some accuracy issues 11:01:41 ie, when cast in a corridor, it may hit a wall 11:02:32 Why does it suck point blank? it has an AoE? 11:03:25 !tell due I had a shop right inside Yiuf's cottage, I guess we should somehow disable that. 11:03:25 kilobyte: OK, I'll let due know. 11:03:49 the damage is reduced at short range 11:04:01 there really should be some information about that... 11:04:07 i was about to mention that, heh 11:04:18 kilobyte: "Crazy Yiuf's Crazy Deals" 11:04:19 Enne: You have 5 messages. Use !messages to read them. 11:04:25 maybe when it impacts an enemy at point blank range, give a different message? 11:04:32 !messages 11:04:33 (1/5) ixtli said (1w 2d 10h 43m 9s ago): Also, i'm going to be changing a lot of the glwrapper soon, because there are too many one-to-one wrapper functions that probably wont make porting any easier. 11:04:50 (Is there a command to read all messages at once?) 11:05:22 !halp 11:06:20 Oh, so it has reduced damage? At range 2+ it's normal, or it scales with distance? 11:06:43 -!- pointless__ has joined ##crawl-dev 11:06:51 -!- pointless_ has quit [Disconnected by services] 11:06:55 -!- pointless__ is now known as pointless_ 11:09:27 Any of you have opinions on Python vs. C/C++ for roguelike development? 11:10:03 Also, is it me, or the Orb wanders around like a drunkard while "homing" on its target? 11:11:58 the orb wanders to prevent using in corridors yea 11:12:01 On an unrelated note: did anyone notice a big decrease in performance in the latest 0.6 Tiles trunk? 11:12:38 Amonchakad: Ack. :( 11:12:51 Can you describe it? 11:13:10 it doesn't wander, only the initial direction is inexact 11:14:19 yeah 11:14:27 Well, it started with the latest version, so the rc1 of 9 march; there is a significant slowdown in autoexplore and resting compared to the previous trunk 11:14:29 you can kinda use it in corridors if you stand at the entrance to one 11:14:49 as long as you have free space in front of you, i think 11:14:53 also, after a while everything slows down a lot; saving and reentering crawl stops it 11:22:27 -!- pointless__ has joined ##crawl-dev 11:24:11 -!- pointless_ has quit [Disconnected by services] 11:24:22 -!- pointless__ is now known as pointless_ 11:24:49 !tell doy mlist targeting should be fixed by 934a388c,e93d0ce7,dd1455d4,a561b8d8 11:24:50 by: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them. 11:24:51 by: OK, I'll let doy know. 11:26:00 !messages 11:26:00 (1/2) doy said (1w 1d 9h 26m 18s ago): can you let me know which jiyva commits are important for 0.6? i know there has been some stuff happening with the piety algorithm, but there's also been a bunch of code cleanup and such too, and not sure which parts are relevant 11:26:44 !messages 11:26:44 (1/1) Erisdiscordia said (1h 27m 17s ago): should cursed weapons meld for batform after clevel 10? they aren't, and the levelup message implies that they ("equipment") are 11:27:07 !messages 11:27:08 (1/4) doy said (1w 1d 9h 48m 47s ago): commit ids like 0.7.0-a0-559 are particularly unhelpful, you really should include the commit hash, or else it's hard for people to tell which revision you're talking about 11:27:15 !messages 11:27:16 (1/3) ixtli said (1w 10h 22m 22s ago): I think I'm done wrapping lib-dependent calls (except FreeType2). Checkout the ipad branch (http://github.com/ixtli/crawl/tree/ipad) and `make TILES=y SDL=y GL=y` and the game should run exactly as master. The files I've created are 'cgcontext-sdl' 'glwrapper' and 'uiwrapper-sdl'. 11:27:23 !messages 11:27:25 (1/2) ixtli said (1w 10h 21m 22s ago): I'm going to work on glwrapper today to reduce the amount of one-to-one wrapper functions, like right now I have a call that simply calls loadIdentity() which is bad for portability. 11:27:29 !messages 11:27:29 (1/1) erisdiscordia said (1d 1h 34m 45s ago): have you ever seen the tiles + fonts graphics modes in Sangband? 11:29:10 Erisdiscordia: I don't think weapons ever meld currently; cursed weapons also prevent high-level transformations currently, so I'd probably suggest to just change the message for now 11:29:42 though maybe they should both force a weapon-unwield 11:29:55 Hio. 11:30:10 I don't really know what's meant to be -- best file a FR 11:30:17 Erisdiscordia: I haven't seen the tiles + fonts graphics modes in Sangband. How does it work? 11:38:17 -!- pointless_ has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:49:38 are demons supposed to drink potions? 11:51:39 -!- karmatic has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:53:16 Enne: there's a tiles lag bug report at http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1056 with a little more information 11:58:13 ugh, bad helpful interface: potion of gain stat is dark grey on a thirsty vampire, but normal on a non-thirsty vampire, but can still fail there 12:15:20 what's the laziest way for a layman to pull up the source at present? 12:16:17 enne: the environment is graphical and monsters, items, and the @ are text 12:17:06 We could certainly do something like that in Crawl. 12:17:07 it's really pretty and yet you simultaneously get the main benefits of console play - highly stylised representation for stuff you need to recognize in a hurry 12:17:30 We could certainly keep the health bars and status icons, but just use characters for everything else? 12:17:38 you can browse the source online at http://crawl-ref.git.sourceforge.net/git/gitweb.cgi?p=crawl-ref/crawl-ref;a=tree 12:17:45 otherwise pull it down with git 12:18:02 just do a font with letters for that 12:18:22 erm, I mean, a tiles build with letters instead of pictures 12:18:38 Do we have a FR for that yet? 12:18:50 we do not. 12:18:57 dpeg's certainly been asking for that for a while 12:18:57 erm, i'm talking out my ass 12:18:58 but, how does a naked K look? 12:19:21 enne, bhaak, yeah, it's essentially letter tiles 12:20:04 and punctuation tiles 12:20:07 Erisdiscordia: Ok. It is listed on the wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:tiles:tiles_improvement 12:20:25 Under "Monster glyph tile set". 12:24:01 found it, commented, thanks! 12:26:11 -!- [1]GrimmSweeper has joined ##crawl-dev 12:26:11 -!- GrimmSweeper has quit [Disconnected by services] 12:26:13 -!- [1]GrimmSweeper is now known as GrimmSweeper 12:26:22 ok, i'm browsing the source tree... anyone know offhand where the levelup benefit messages are? 12:27:07 'cuz i don't understand how to do a search yet :/ 12:27:14 player.cc:level_change 12:27:30 Vampires sometimes cannot drain corpses properly (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1062) by wesleyshaver 12:28:00 yeah, i've noticed this ^ 12:28:51 -!- raydarken has joined ##crawl-dev 12:28:55 -!- Twinge has quit [] 12:29:03 -!- raydarken has quit [Client Quit] 12:32:32 Improve levelup message for level 10 Vampires (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1063) by erisdiscordia 12:35:26 -!- TGWi has joined ##crawl-dev 12:41:53 03j-p-e-g * r177374589c31 10/crawl-ref/source/files.cc: Fix #1053: save macro prompts when changing levels. 12:46:42 -!- MarvinPA-2 has joined ##crawl-dev 12:46:43 -!- Siber has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:49:20 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:57:23 -!- MarvinPA-3 has joined ##crawl-dev 13:00:27 -!- MarvinPA-2 has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:01:26 -!- MarvinPA-3 is now known as MarvinPA 13:02:31 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 13:03:03 morning all 13:12:38 -!- TGWi has left ##crawl-dev 13:20:42 -!- raydarken has joined ##crawl-dev 13:20:47 -!- raydarken has quit [Client Quit] 13:25:03 -!- Siber has joined ##crawl-dev 13:36:33 -!- raydarken has joined ##crawl-dev 13:36:49 -!- raydarken has quit [Client Quit] 13:47:41 -!- raydarken has joined ##crawl-dev 13:48:25 -!- raydarken has quit [Client Quit] 13:48:27 -!- ogaz has joined ##crawl-dev 13:56:41 -!- ortoslon has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:59:37 -!- Xardas-3 has joined ##crawl-dev 14:01:21 -!- pointless_ has joined ##crawl-dev 14:08:55 Set level annotation to what (using ! forces prompt)? 14:09:11 anyone know what the parenthesised part is supposed to mean? 14:10:07 by: I think it means that you get a Y/N when trying to enter the level 14:10:18 it's like a {!w} or {!q} annotation, but for levels rather than items 14:10:22 ah 14:10:24 yea, if you put a ! in the annotation it will prompt you for entry 14:10:24 yep 14:10:49 it could probly be clearer, ive heard people ask before 14:11:22 I thought you had to use an ! in the beginning, although I never tried anywhere else 14:11:31 no, "ghost!" works 14:11:41 that's kind of nice 14:12:03 but I think that explanation is no better than no hint at all, plus it wastes space 14:12:46 -!- Xardas-3_ has joined ##crawl-dev 14:14:36 -!- Xardas-3_ has quit [Client Quit] 14:14:53 -!- Xardas-3 has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:15:22 New level annotation (include '!' for warning): 14:15:25 better? 14:15:53 i think so 14:16:00 yea i think thats better 14:18:26 my Crawl bot's coming along well, by the way; I've already had it die to Sigmund once 14:20:35 First rite of passage is complete 14:20:50 yep 14:21:05 next step is to get it to work out the content of stacks of items, which is really frustrating for a bot to work out 14:21:20 heh 14:21:29 I need to work out the exact interaction between unvisited stacks and autoexplore, I think 14:21:55 and with any luck, I'll be able to report its first kill of Sigmund some time soon 14:23:09 sounds good; I'd prefer to see it going through the Lua bindings of course 14:23:57 I'm trying to have the bot "play the game" much the same way as a human would 14:24:08 although, given that it farlooks everything every turn, that goal might seem rather implausible 14:24:38 the issue with the lua bindings is that that's "inside" Crawl in a sense, with no real way to communicate back out 14:24:52 I understand 14:25:11 couldn't you create a char dump and read the .lst file for stack contents? 14:26:05 jarpiain: I work on the basis that having to dump to files is not a sensible way to play, especially on public servers 14:26:11 I'd just love this kind of thing to a) lead to more complete lua bindings and b) allow reusing some bot parts for normal play 14:29:53 this goto thingy in newgame.cc is ;( 14:30:30 felirx: I aborted one or two newgame cleanups already 14:30:42 :D 14:30:54 I`m just going to... break the texts 14:31:01 all I got done was split some code out into ng-*.cc 14:31:37 the character initialization should really be untangled from all the prompting 14:32:09 not sure I want to spend more time on this part than neccessary 14:32:19 I`ve a feeling the tutorial creation will nicely suck up quite a lot of hours 14:33:34 I think hacking the newgame code in its current state is a waste of time -- it'll need to be rewritten anyway 14:33:49 adding features without cleaning up first will just make it that much harder 14:34:14 all I`ll change is swap the flat out text promts to menu entries, and change the layout 14:34:17 of the promtps 14:35:02 it can't get worse, really :) good luck 14:35:17 :D 14:38:23 03by * rdab251339192 10/crawl-ref/source/ (dgn-overview.cc misc.cc): Improve level annotation prompts. 14:39:46 think I`ll use TGW`s last entry as the baseline to begin with 14:40:02 http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:interface:combochoice last entry 14:45:40 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 14:50:45 !seen due 14:50:45 I last saw due at Sat Mar 13 13:19:53 2010 UTC (7h 30m 52s ago) acting out due sleep. on ##crawl-dev. 14:58:30 Are there any short-term changes planned for Vehumet? 15:02:40 -!- Xiberia has joined ##crawl-dev 15:03:12 -!- pointless__ has joined ##crawl-dev 15:03:22 -!- pointless_ has quit [Disconnected by services] 15:03:23 -!- pointless__ is now known as pointless_ 15:07:22 Amonchakad: No, but there is a long-term plan. 15:07:34 At least, I have one, not sure if that (or something similar) will ever go in. 15:08:40 I'm just curious because I've tried it for the first time(or actually, I managed to get a vehumet caster past early game for the first time) and it looks quite...plain 15:09:01 short term changes were made for 0.6 (the range boost and high level spell discount) 15:09:07 yeah,I'm playing with those 15:09:21 Well, the old gods never had much fluff, they're fairly straightforward, which is not necessarily bad in itself. 15:09:29 I rather like vehumet, but then I like gods that don't get in the way 15:09:31 I believe that V having Sum boosts is a mistake. 15:09:45 by: Do you dislike the new godsß 15:09:55 the biggest letdown for me is the piety: there are no abilities, piety just needs to be charged, then you get his 3-4 books, and it has the same effect for the rest of the game 15:10:26 dpeg: I rather enjoy Che, no luck with Fedhas, but I may just be too lazy to learn 15:10:27 Having no abilities (and not using Inv) is also a plus. 15:10:49 by: I think that C dominates your game much more than F does :) 15:11:39 I think it`s time to see if crawl compiles on msvc again... 15:11:57 emacs does not understand that I want tabs to be 4 width this time so screw that 15:12:15 I may be a little conservative with the gods, don't really know why 15:12:46 -!- pointless_ has quit [Disconnected by services] 15:12:49 by: with use or with design? 15:12:54 use 15:12:59 -!- pointless_ has joined ##crawl-dev 15:14:08 i liked new vehumet when i played it 15:14:18 but really I'm not sure -- I think I prefer the gods where I understand how to play them well 15:14:23 are there still any plans to remove his gifts? 15:17:23 Mu_: Well, in my plans (with provisions as above), V wouldn't gift books anymore, but spells (along with wands and ammunition, depending on what the player uses). 15:17:52 Mu_: also, I spent hours yesterday to improve entry.des -- not sure anybody out there will actually appreciate that. But today it's Vestibule time :) 15:18:18 dpeg: I saw that. I'm glad subvaults found some more use. :) 15:18:26 nice :) 15:18:29 Enne: Ah, all hail the subvault! 15:18:37 Enne: I think I found a strange bug, though. 15:18:59 Oh yeah? 15:19:09 The cave-to-halls subvaults I employ are 12x12. I cut off a corner (inspired by V:8) and the thing still got rotated. 15:19:33 After much despair and asking Mu for help, I followed his advice and use no-rotate, which made it work. 15:19:35 Vestibule is getting improved? Yay! 15:19:35 The cut out corner was in the same place, but it maybe got flipped? 15:19:38 -!- karmatic has joined ##crawl-dev 15:19:49 Ah, the cut corner can be rotated, too? 15:19:53 * dpeg is puzzled. 15:20:02 dpeg: Maybe I need a blog entry with pictures? :P 15:20:10 Enne: but it works now :) 15:21:47 Mu_: I think that V should lose the Sum support (and some other, new god should get it), and that V should instead help all ranged combat, not just casters. 15:23:02 My proposal may be too clumsy, but I believe the basic idea is good and robust. Also, we need to get rid of the gifts. 15:24:04 cool 15:25:08 I'd agree with the removal of the book gifts; takes away quite some flavour from Sif 15:25:13 -!- pointless__ has joined ##crawl-dev 15:25:26 -!- pointless_ has quit [Disconnected by services] 15:25:38 -!- pointless__ is now known as pointless_ 15:26:07 book generation and acquirement and gifts need some work I think; the changes there seem to have been rather random 15:28:30 -!- [1]GrimmSweeper has joined ##crawl-dev 15:28:30 -!- GrimmSweeper has quit [Disconnected by services] 15:28:31 -!- [1]GrimmSweeper is now known as GrimmSweeper 15:28:40 by: the changes may have been bad ones, but they were not random. 15:29:18 In particular, the system was overhauled two times (first implementation by Matthew, an overhaul by Johanna, and another one by Johanna.) 15:30:33 it seemed quite often that people were surprised that annihilations etc. was or wasn't generated/gifted 15:31:05 it seemed to me there wasn't a real plan, apart from adding randart books (which are great) 15:31:41 I probably just missed it, of course 15:32:00 No, there was a plan :) 15:32:09 Part of the plan was to remove the highway to Annihilations. 15:32:31 (This goes for Sif, and explains why V got Annihilations back.) 15:32:56 also, was there ever a plan for the balance between scroll acquirement and Sif acquirement? 15:33:38 The design goals of randart books were these: (1) Book acquirement was (almost) deterministic -- that's very bad. (2) This has bad consequences for the gifting gods (especially for Sif). 15:34:34 by: We thought a lot about scroll acquirement (when to give manuals, which chances for randart books, and of which type etc.). Not sure what you mean by _balance_ between scroll and god. 15:35:06 (Trust me, I try to never propose designs only because they're "cool". And if I support one, like the blood splashes, I will always say so.) 15:35:28 -!- Epicurean has joined ##crawl-dev 15:36:51 -!- Antagonist has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:37:11 dpeg is too cool for cool 15:38:03 Siber: :P 15:38:31 Siber: I believe that designs generally deteriorate if you're prone to "that's nifty, let's add it". 15:38:48 -!- pointless__ has joined ##crawl-dev 15:38:58 -!- pointless_ has quit [Disconnected by services] 15:38:59 -!- pointless__ is now known as pointless_ 15:40:08 Hey, I'm not complaining 15:40:31 in my limited experience, book acquirements were not a good investment recently; I played some non-sif/vehu spellcasters a while back, and rarely got something useful; I may just have been unlucky 15:40:33 -!- Epicurean has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:40:52 by: yes, we may have gone overboard. 15:41:14 When we started, book acquirements very extremely popular, because you know exactly what you'd get. That's no good, of course. 15:41:47 Johanna did many test runs, but we may have missed something when testing. 15:43:57 -!- pointless_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:44:46 need to sleep now; good night! 15:44:49 -!- by has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:45:42 -!- pointless_ has joined ##crawl-dev 15:51:57 -!- pointless_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:53:32 -!- pointless_ has joined ##crawl-dev 16:00:36 -!- pointless_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:03:24 -!- Antagonist has joined ##crawl-dev 16:05:48 Mu_: around? 16:05:54 yep 16:06:10 Is your vestibule supposed to replace the existing one, or be an alternative? 16:06:22 i guess that's up to you ;p 16:06:26 Aha :) 16:06:35 That means both. 16:09:39 fatal error C1061: compiler limit : blocks nested too deeply 16:09:44 that`s... new :D 16:10:00 -!- fwiffo has joined ##crawl-dev 16:10:20 felirx: using MS? 16:10:30 msvc2008 16:10:40 Does it work with other compilers? 16:10:41 it`s only some 3-4 indents :D 16:10:59 felirx: So is there a reason to bother? 16:11:08 just found it funny :) 16:11:18 :) 16:11:20 msvc can`t build intellisense without the code compiling :( 16:11:35 felirx: TGW made an extremely good selection screen on the wiki, btw. 16:11:45 that`s what I`m using 16:11:52 Hey! 16:11:57 when I get past these technological handicaps... 16:12:28 emacs said NO USE USE 2 SPACE TO INDENT YOU IDIOT even when I explicitly told it to use 4 16:12:50 msvc dose not compile, vim is eww :D 16:12:58 emacs takes a while to set up correctly 16:13:11 and likes emacs-specific headers/footers in files to say how they're meant to be indented 16:13:15 which annoys users of other editors 16:13:37 I use 2 space indent on all my other projects since it saves space 16:14:16 felirx: can't you use kile or kate or something? 16:14:19 the bigger problem is that Emacs favours GNU-style indentation, which nobody but GNU uses (probably for good reason) 16:14:26 There's more than vim and emacs :) 16:14:53 windows 16:15:00 notepad++ maybe? 16:15:15 -!- TGWi has joined ##crawl-dev 16:15:26 I can only recommend WinEdt. 16:16:21 It's the best editor (for latex) I am aware of, and it has modes for many programming languages, of course. 16:16:23 hmm, has kate been ported to Windows yet? 16:16:37 In fact, WinEdt is a reason to have a windows partition, for me :) 16:17:17 main reason I tend to want to use msvc is the excellent intellisense they have going on for them 16:17:45 gah, "Kate" is almost unsearchable; "KDE Kate" seems to work 16:18:20 btw, the too many nests problem came from initfile.cc 16:18:28 which is the huge messy i else hellhole of the source :D 16:18:35 *if else 16:18:43 Was it ever considered to actually show which scrolls/potions are destroyed in the message about scrolls catching fire or potions shattering? 16:18:58 yes 16:19:28 all the time 16:19:51 and what's the reason for keeping it the way it is now? 16:20:27 it's easier 16:21:02 Easier...for who? For the player? 16:21:30 to code 16:22:08 So it's a code issue; ok, that's understandable. Thanks for the answer 16:22:12 Amonchakad: make a patch! 16:22:17 it's not actually an issue 16:22:19 We'll use it. 16:22:20 it's just that nobody's coded it 16:22:25 yes 16:22:52 Amonchakad: The information is readily available, just dump your inventory every turn :) 16:23:08 So we should provide an easier access. 16:23:16 Uhm...I haven't got the slightiest clue on where to start with "making a patch"; but I suppose that reading the related documentation might help 16:23:23 someone should do something about 'dump every turn' being optimal 16:23:56 offscreen kills is another issue 16:24:07 and enslaving invisible monsters, that one's just weird 16:24:42 TGWi: "someone" 16:25:07 maybe lemuel should do it 16:25:13 so he can't spend the same time being an asshole 16:25:54 -!- TGWi was kicked from ##crawl-dev by dpeg [Lemuel actually contributed to the game.] 16:26:11 Jesus, what the fuck is wrong with people on irc? 16:26:31 -!- TGWi has joined ##crawl-dev 16:26:55 I was talking about the vaults 16:27:02 so was he 16:27:42 I'd actually really like to help with crawl development, but I have next to zero programming experience 16:28:09 -!- karmatic has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:28:14 Amonchakad: add monster speech, or build vaults 16:28:26 Amonchakad: not a problem: vaults, tiles, descriptions, speech :) 16:28:28 or if you`re an artist type, tiles 16:29:01 -!- fwiffo has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:40:05 Amonchakad: or docs, or translations. 16:40:25 Translations? There are translations of Crawl in other languages? 16:40:46 Amonchakad: Lua is not a terribly hard language, if you are willing to put in the time to learn it, and used extensively in crawl (with plans to be used more extensively in the future) 16:41:11 Amonchakad: kinda sorta, its not a engine that lends itself well to translation, but theres a few... 16:42:07 Uhm, perhaps I'm misunderstanding: are you talking of translating crawl's ingame language from english to say, french or german, or another kind of translations? 16:43:23 I don't recommend translations to other languages. 16:43:29 ^ I agree 16:44:12 hmm, would be much harder than nethack-de, I imagine 16:44:37 Crawl's source is full of hardcoded lists of stuff; at least in NetHack the lists are mostly centralised, it's just messages that are the problem 16:44:54 (sorry, I've spend around 2 days staring at directn.cc recently...) 16:45:07 morn 16:45:08 due: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 16:45:12 lo due 16:45:15 !messages 16:45:16 (1/1) kilobyte said (5h 41m 50s ago): I had a shop right inside Yiuf's cottage, I guess we should somehow disable that. 16:45:37 I think we need a tag "this vault can be messed with" 16:45:44 and the general vault won't. 16:46:27 Does anybody believe sorting entry vaults by size makes some sense? 16:46:46 they're sorted by creator now, yeah? 16:46:48 dpeg: Vaults already have this. 16:46:54 that seems more ideal 16:47:02 It got a shop because it was placed after the dungeon was generatedand it picked a spot that had a shop. 16:47:11 and as floor is transparent, it didn't clobber the shop. 16:47:22 i think! 16:47:26 -!- Demos has joined ##crawl-dev 16:47:56 Hi guys 16:48:10 for the water and fire ones, etc 16:48:14 03dpeg * r8986be795d23 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/branches/hells.des: Add Neil's new Vestibule of Hell! (Mu) 16:48:17 although I guess those would be sorted together anyway 16:48:17 03dpeg * rabcfce3602d4 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/variable/entry.des: Two fixes for entry vaults. 16:48:28 TGWi: the water and fire one is much shorter now 16:48:37 I condensed it to a single map. 16:48:41 heh 16:49:00 I'm trying to figure out if it would hurt anything else, but I don't think so 16:49:00 I don't think sorting by creator is particularly useful. 16:49:11 well, not 'creator' 16:49:22 but related vaults are usually submitted together, so 16:50:17 Yes, that was convenient early on, but by now it's probably better to sort the file by something substantial. Other than size, could also be WEIGHT, or perhaps theme (monster vs no monsters, fog etc.9 16:50:30 Okay, my homework for today is done. 16:51:08 sorting them by theme seems painful 16:51:55 here, there's a 15x11 aquarium and a 23x11 one 16:52:22 currently, there is a slider type of a menu available but it has no columns support. Should I expand that, or inherit a completely new menu for the race/back purposes 16:53:13 due: i believe wizlabs still need their random monster sets defining 16:54:06 Mu_: ack. 16:54:12 Mu_: thank you for the reminder. 16:54:15 felirx: I would make a new menu. 16:54:31 Mu_: map is in! Thank you very much :) 16:54:42 due: also, can we turn the water in cig's lab back to just "viscous liquid." i think it's grosser when it's ambiguous. ;p 16:54:47 dpeg: yay! :D 16:54:49 that`s what I`ll do then 16:54:57 at least it will give full control on the subject 16:54:58 due: or viscous fluid i think it was 16:55:36 aw, but spinal fluid is creepy! 16:55:50 Will do it, though. 16:56:06 should give it the option of a bunch of different fluids 16:58:06 I have a few questions. 16:58:25 What you guys consider degenerate behavior? 16:59:11 -!- Antagonist has quit [Quit: "True terror is to wake up one morning and discover that your high school class is running the country." ~Kurt Vonnegut] 16:59:34 Demos: one I heard someone else did recently was a merfolk camping in the middle of deep water in an entry vault to heal up, when surrounded by OOD monsters 16:59:48 also, I consider mephing everything in sight degenerate behaviour, but think I'm outnumbered 17:01:25 Is there anything else people consider abusive? 17:01:33 yes, a lot 17:01:44 stone of earth elementals 17:01:51 mummy scumming 17:01:55 I'm writing an article on cheating for the wiki 17:02:01 I thought mummy scumming had been fixed 17:02:02 startscumming 17:02:06 it's not cheating 17:02:07 if you want outright cheating, there's savescumming 17:02:08 ais523: yes, by now it has 17:02:18 also, RNG control 17:02:41 pillar dancing and stair dancing can leave a bad taste 17:02:53 hmm... what about startscumming draconians by figuring out their apts? 17:02:56 RNG control? Like in Nethack? 17:02:57 that's degenerate two different ways? 17:03:03 Demos: yep, it works in Crawl too 17:03:16 in fact, atm it works in Crawl but not on some NetHack public servers, because they patched it 17:03:50 ais523: yes, Dr scumming 17:03:56 Are they anti-cheating measures in place (like in ADOM)? 17:04:10 repeatedly abandoning Okawaru for food? 17:04:15 or was that one fixed too? 17:04:19 it's fixed 17:07:51 abandoning Oka for food? how does that work? 17:08:39 oka retribution used to be permanent 17:08:43 Okawaru summoned-monsters were permanent. 17:08:51 so you kill them, then eat their corpses 17:09:10 and all of the summons are big and meaty 17:09:47 Oh, SA is dissing Fedhas so hard. 17:09:58 ah 17:09:59 why? 17:10:04 Gotta stop reading that page again. 17:10:16 http://techlorebyigor.blogspot.com/search/label/dungeon%20crawl Crawl Reviews and Cheat file 17:10:24 Can you guys patch the game, so they won't work? It kinda bugs me... 17:10:45 "I can say without hesitation that Fedhas is currently the worst god in the crawl pantheon by a very wide margin" 17:11:28 has he tried fedhas at all? 17:11:37 fed loses to xom? 17:11:37 ouch 17:11:40 felirx: I don't know. 17:11:59 is there any way to sort the gods by asc percentage? 17:12:27 you could compare !lg * won s=god to !lg * s=god 17:12:29 but don't 17:13:02 I believe they are missing several points. And no way I'll try to explain them a bit. 17:13:27 (over at SA, I mean; here is perhaps possible for me) 17:13:32 link to thread? 17:13:35 ais523: I cannot get your link to work 17:13:45 http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3155652&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=173 17:13:48 and thereabouts 17:13:51 dpeg: did I link to anything? 17:13:54 nevermind 17:13:59 sorry ais523 17:14:00 oh thanks 17:14:02 Demos: ^ 17:15:31 -!- Enne has quit [Quit: Enne] 17:15:41 Last question, is using wizard mode to test things out before trying them in a scored game considered cheating? 17:15:56 no 17:16:17 Thanks for all the responses! 17:16:27 Demos: I cannot get your link to work. Also, we are trying to get rid of the abuses and scums, of course. 17:16:31 Will take a while, though. 17:17:22 -!- pointless_ has joined ##crawl-dev 17:19:37 likewise, someone backed up their save file, won, then tried something else from the backup save 17:19:46 I don't consider that cheating either, although the second game isn't legit there 17:19:54 yes 17:21:52 TGWi: it's more, "Fedhas loses to Zin?" 17:22:49 -!- pointless__ has joined ##crawl-dev 17:22:56 ogaz: do you agree with the conclusions? 17:23:42 dpeg: I don't know, I've played very little Fedhas 17:23:43 Is there a proposal from excluding meat chunks created by Ood's explosions from autoexplore? 17:23:56 -!- pointless_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:23:59 -!- pointless__ is now known as pointless_ 17:24:04 Amonchakad: yes. Don't know what came out of it, though. 17:24:12 hmm, another form of cheating would be leaving player ghosts designed to give loads of exp but be easily defeated 17:24:18 Is anybody interesting in my would-be reply to the accusation? 17:24:19 sort of Crawl's equivalent of NetHack's bones-stuffing 17:24:32 ais523: yes, ghost griefing. Will be prevented in the future. 17:25:16 some ideas for blocking that in NetHack were having bones levels appear at the xlevel of the character who died, rather than the dlevel; that would reduce its effects in Crawl, but not stop it entirely 17:25:47 ais523: we will make sure that ghosts fit to the D level where they come up 17:25:57 so you cannot take your XL 27 guy and die on D:3 17:26:17 I don't believe you can currently. 17:26:33 !lm greensnark type=ghost place=temple 17:26:34 1. [2007-12-01] greensnark the Ruffian (L8 TrBe) killed the ghost of syllogism the Destroyer, a great DSIE on turn 4404. (Temple) 17:26:35 that was sad :P 17:26:37 -!- permagreen has joined ##crawl-dev 17:26:38 There's nothing in the loading code, but threre are some scaling and safety checks in the saving, I think. 17:26:51 !lm greensnark type=ghost place=temple -tv 17:26:52 1. greensnark, XL8 TrBe, T:4404 (milestone) requested for FooTV. 17:27:08 Adam or Stefan is concerned with ghost manipulation. 17:27:16 alas the ttyrec is gone 17:27:16 hmm, footv crashed 17:27:24 well, failed at least 17:31:23 -!- TGWi has left ##crawl-dev 17:34:22 dpeg: only on multi-user systems. We would need to either make such install basically private DGLs (which would be hard due to tiles), or remove all unneeded avenues of attack (db and saves) while accepting that the logfile and ghosts can be tampered with by a determined attacker. 17:34:52 kilobyte: I am not sure that's worth the effort. 17:35:09 People can tamper with their local games all the way they want. It is important that the servers are safe. 17:36:03 letting people mess with databases is a security hole, you can take over accounts of other users 17:37:01 NetHack is currently excluded from gentoo due to a security hole; people can write directly to the high-score tables, in a way that means other people running it run arbitrary programs 17:37:10 Ah, my lack of knowledge clearly shows. 17:37:17 and we don't gain anything from that, so they can be either read-only in /var/games/crawl/ or private in ~/.crawl/ 17:37:26 ais523: exactly! 17:37:33 admittedly, it's mostly due to stupidity in the way gentoo sets permissions, but it's possible that the same problem might be possible in Crawl (using it as an intermediary to exploit an otherwise insecure setup) 17:38:37 ais523: there are several ways I know, one via the db, one via saves. 17:39:10 -!- fwiffo has joined ##crawl-dev 17:39:15 the real solution is probably a big warning in the install file to not do something stupid like, say, making it suid root (at least one distro actually does that for NetHack) 17:40:26 I fixed permissions on the logfile in both 'make install' and in Debian packaging, but sadly the fix needs to be done separately by each distribution 17:41:27 the installer needs to touch the logfile and chown it to games:games 17:41:51 (actually, the real solution is to persuade all distros to do what openBSD did; there's a long essay on security in computer games, including at least one roguelike, in the bsdgames package I have) 17:41:58 yet if it is touched and then copied over, it would nuke all scores on every upgrade 17:42:57 the recommendation is basically to make games not setuid, setgid games, with the game not having write access to its own executable, and with permissions dropped immediately after high-score tables are opened 17:43:37 it would require opening the high-score file as the very first operation, but that's doable 17:45:22 another issue: if someone tampers with the score file, Crawl currently dies screaming, requiring root to delete the score file 17:46:06 if there's a syntax error or even incompatible records, you can't start Crawl at all 17:46:37 what should we do? Would just ignoring the broken records (effectively emptying the score file) the right thing to do? 17:47:39 kilobyte: why notß 17:48:07 Sorry about the broken link. 17:48:20 -!- fwiffo has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:48:31 the only problem would be that if you downgrade crawl, it will nuke the scores 17:48:39 I'm (mostly) done with the article. 17:48:45 http://crawl.chaosforge.org/index.php?title=Cheating 17:48:57 but that's probably better than not being able to play without root's intervention 17:49:12 that article is silly 17:49:26 -!- Amonchakad has quit [Quit: Page closed] 17:50:04 Meh, I mostly copied it from Nethack's wiki. 17:50:24 -!- megaboz has joined ##crawl-dev 17:50:40 yeah, Okawaru's food service lasted too short to be of real use :p 17:51:49 I got lots of experience with mummy scumming, yet I haven't yet abused the stone yet... need to do it before a fix (like mine in trunk) is ported to 0.6 :p 17:52:21 * kilobyte takes pride in having done everything degenerate :p 17:52:47 bah, full recompile 17:54:14 -!- megaboz has quit [Changing host] 17:54:14 -!- megaboz has joined ##crawl-dev 17:54:16 that cheat entry about "Bones stuffing" doesn't apply to Crawl, though. Ghosts provide relatively little xp and can be deadly if you're too stupid to leave them be (I'm usually stupid here...) 17:55:09 people love the opposite, creating purposefully inflated ghosts and letting them kill people 17:55:13 The whole section about spoilers is really off point 17:55:48 kilobyte: ghosts can provide loads of XP, depending on when they turn up 17:56:48 and presumably, especially if they're designed specifically to provide loads of exp and have no decent attacks 17:56:57 -!- Ero has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:57:26 DDTm would be a complete joke 17:57:34 -!- EroN1 has joined ##crawl-dev 17:57:40 I created that article in response to that blogger trying to teach people how to teach. 17:57:45 http://techlorebyigor.blogspot.com/2009/02/how-to-cheat-in-dungeon-crawl.html 17:57:58 *cheat 17:58:16 hmm, automated savescumming, nice 17:58:47 NetHack has a mode where savescumming is allowed (explore mode, basically an "easy mode"); maybe it was created for people like that? 17:59:26 ogaz: hmm, or any hunter, right 18:02:44 what do you guys think about spoilers? 18:02:57 And what is start scumming? 18:03:34 no one cares, also if you are reading crawl spoilers you should tell us what they are so that we can consider adding them to the in game documentation in some way 18:03:50 mostly just monster stats 18:04:07 Demos: repeatedly restarting until you get the exact stats you want 18:04:39 Demos: or restarting wanderers/draconians/demonspawn because of bad mutations/colors/starting things 18:06:54 and most of them seem to disapprove of it as though from some kind of ethical standpoint, which is weird, considering it's just a game. <- best line in the article :) 18:07:42 -!- karmatic has joined ##crawl-dev 18:10:46 Crawl will never contain all spoilers available (as that means to incorporate all gameplay code), but the stated goal is to make Crawl fun and winnable without spoilers. Yes, that's a bit fuzzy and a subjective notion. 18:14:19 I'd say the best would be if being spoiled never provided an advantage. 18:14:46 Yes, but that's not achievable. 18:15:08 Although I do believe that spoiled, inexperienced players have a harder time. 18:15:20 Well, a lot of values are now represented. 18:15:35 But damage output and armour class are severely lacking, as are spells cast. 18:15:40 agree 18:15:41 @?? provides this, of course. 18:15:41 unknown monster: "provides this of course" 18:16:10 merely writing the spoilers in descriptions isn't that good an idea, too 18:16:13 due: but still, we never give the numbers. 18:16:21 dpeg: Exactly. 18:16:26 So a properly spoiled player has more information. 18:16:29 but sometimes it's tricky how to do this without removing complexity 18:17:03 kilobyte: I am quite happy with the announcement of resistances of monsters. 18:17:10 Atleast MR and resistances are reported. 18:17:10 the point re: the wiki article is that looking up a monsters spells/stats via @?? isn't considered by the community (well maybe some weirdo on usenet would consider it a problem, but weirdos on usenet aren't all that significant a portion of crawl players) 18:17:17 *considered bad 18:17:19 We thought so long about the issue and the final solution seems natural. 18:17:21 pointless_: Hi! 18:17:25 hi 18:17:36 power is back on its very exciting 18:17:41 say, Nemelex. Sane play includes not sacrificing weapons unless you need piety (ie, at the start), and saving up decks of summoning for non-living branches 18:18:17 if you're not going to do Hells/Pan/etc, you don't want to sacrifice that much corpses either 18:18:39 why not 18:18:43 That's not a spoiler, though. 18:18:49 kilobyte: yes, among all gods, Nemelex probably rewards spoiling most. (But note that this is not a new feature -- the old version was even more prone to this.9 18:18:55 That's just a technique; and all this info is reported in Nemelex's display. 18:19:03 and probably the most important thing is to always stack Wonders 18:19:17 And we do try to make Nemelex easy for new players (the ^! screen, the symbols). 18:19:30 Yes, Nemelex could use some love. 18:19:54 you don't really have to stack/triple draw wonders if you aren't a caster 18:20:14 not sacrificing weapons could be fixed easily (by removing Torment from decks of destruction), but that would upset balance 18:20:48 and Pain, and Venom? 18:21:02 Shuffle. Focus. Wild Magic. 18:21:26 but Shuffle is half the reason I play Nemelex 18:21:45 kilobyte: Yes, every deck should have some detrimental cards and one can come up with better choices than torment. Then again, torment can be useful, and it's a lot of work to set up all the cards.... 18:21:52 sorear: <3 18:22:18 Shuffle is a character-nuking thing for a good percentage of builds -- and yes, if you prepare for it, you can abuse it 18:22:56 Shuffle is probably not the best card idea, but we kept it as a nod to the old Nemelex. 18:23:04 brainy trolls totally break theme 18:24:12 I don't mind that. But I do mind that Shuffle can break some unaware player's game. 18:24:12 decks of wonders: 1. cost precious consumables, 2. have insane rewards, 3. have insane detriments but you can avoid these 18:25:11 you get what, 5 or so Experience cards in your way to level 27. That's a huge boost. 18:25:13 dpeg: are we ok with "photosynthesist" as a fedhas title? 18:25:19 and Helix >>> Xom or Jiyva 18:25:20 -!- syllogism has quit [] 18:25:25 kilobyte: As I said, it was a lot of work to design and implement the decks and cards. If you have specific proposals to improve the system, list them somewhere, please. 18:25:36 pointless_: I am, yes. 18:26:02 pointless_: it's good for me too 18:26:15 I guess a better idea for Shuffle would be to not swap full stats, but randomise the amount to be swapped. 18:26:26 I changed a couple fedhas titles the other day (sporadic warrior -> green death, planter -> cultivator, inducer -> inciter) 18:26:33 yes, I saw that 18:26:35 it would remove sorear's reason to use it :p 18:26:50 meh, it's not like I've actually done it since 0.3 18:26:55 dpeg: you are the anachronism police so I'm just checking if we are still ok :P 18:26:58 shuffle is just too rare 18:27:02 "green death" conflicts with a popular demon 18:27:06 pointless_: I would have said something, trust me :) 18:27:19 kilobyte: it's a pun, sort of. 18:27:25 I liked it, at least. 18:27:32 sporadic warrior? 18:27:40 I also like it (it ties in with green %s) 18:27:50 sporadic warrior was the spores title 18:28:07 "sporadic warrior" is punny, "green death" is straight 18:28:29 green death was previously the evolution title prior to ability reordering, now its vaguely appropriate for spores because mold is green 18:28:43 (and I'm personally not too amused by puns, but I tolerate them) 18:28:50 I liked both, but humour is hard to decide upon... If there's hate for them, we change. 18:28:57 You can think of it as a joke, a high level fedhas worshiper is considered sort of demonic 18:29:15 because they do bad things like manufacture spores/ballistomycetes 18:29:33 I simply saw it as "a Fedhasite brings a much death as everybody else, only his colour/flag is green". 18:29:40 -!- Eronarn has joined ##crawl-dev 18:29:48 ballistos have been nerfed into irrelevancy, at least for non-Fedhasites 18:30:02 good 18:30:06 well we can turn the respawn timer back down, but that's a separate discussion 18:31:17 -!- megaboz has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:32:00 pointless_: I think we can leave ballistos for 0.6. Would you have an eye (read: shout) later on, so that we can make them more meaningful (to non-Fedhasites) again? 18:33:06 -!- megaboz has joined ##crawl-dev 18:33:29 -!- pointless__ has joined ##crawl-dev 18:33:58 -!- pointless_ has quit [Disconnected by services] 18:34:09 -!- pointless__ is now known as pointless_ 18:34:13 dpeg: How do you feel about having multiple sizes of spores? That might do a lot to make ballistos able to flood the level without, well, blowing up the level. 18:34:25 hm, my spells in a rod of destruction are highlighted in green as if vehumet were boosting their power 18:34:36 er, wait, he boosts success 18:34:43 so yeah, that can't be right 18:34:44 Eronarn: now, that is an interesting idea. 18:35:21 Eronarn: woudl you add it to oen of the wiki pages? It may be some while until we think about ballistos again, and it'd be good to have the idea written down. 18:35:25 is there a spore colony unique yet 18:35:46 Mu_: just wait until due plays a Fedhasite :) 18:35:50 :) 18:35:53 eventually, but i'm in the middle of a system transition so it may be a bit 18:36:28 Eronarn: please don't forget it! Make a note. Stickypost. Self mail. 18:36:38 MarvinPA: Bug, please file. 18:36:55 am doing :) 18:38:02 Hey, I always make notes :) They are just in a state of disarray at the moment 18:41:44 http://twitpic.com/18fgkb <-- all my notes are somewhere in one of these piles. 18:42:27 kilobyte: A lich just cast IOOd and I got out of LOS and then I got a "the orb of destruction hits a stone wall" message when I could see neither. 18:43:17 -!- megaboz has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 18:44:15 Examining spells in a rod gives incorrect information (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1064) by MarvintheParanoidAndroid 18:50:12 speaking of messages out of LOS, when a anaconda is crushing something you can hear "something is being crushed" from seemingly the far side of the level 18:51:54 ooh, anaconda crushing is in? 18:52:09 well I think it's just a flavour message 18:52:14 -!- Erisdiscordia has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:53:45 yes, but more will come 19:02:42 -!- TGWi has joined ##crawl-dev 19:02:51 I see utterly no point colouring spells in staves apart from useless ones when you don't have or it doesn't have the mana to cast them. 19:02:54 dpeg? 19:03:15 Oh, wait, there are staves with evil spells. 19:03:16 Hm. 19:03:24 which sounds better, "change species" or what? 19:03:33 * due grumbles. 19:03:39 to replace "pick species first" with a species already chosen 19:04:14 due: here! 19:04:40 doy: Ping? 19:04:53 I suppose I could just add a boolean flag that ignores empowerment for rods. 19:04:57 ah, spells in staves 19:05:08 I think I agree. 19:06:29 -!- Eronarn has quit [Quit: Page closed] 19:06:37 It should only mark spells your god hates, and spells that are useless. 19:08:49 -!- pointless__ has joined ##crawl-dev 19:08:56 -!- pointless_ has quit [Disconnected by services] 19:09:00 -!- pointless__ is now known as pointless_ 19:09:43 due: yes 19:10:21 Nobody ever said something about the new display for branches in Ctrl-O, so I guess there are no complaints 19:11:54 -!- Demos has left ##crawl-dev 19:13:36 no complaints here. 19:13:38 -!- permagreen has quit [Quit: Welcome to the real world] 19:14:22 cool 19:15:08 I just realised there are some massive WizLab tweaks I missed :| 19:15:12 I haven't dnoe *any* tiles for one map. 19:15:49 which one? 19:15:59 is there a way to make a spoiler block on the wiki? I want to post a bunch more screens in character selection but it would be kind of jerkish 19:17:55 -!- Siber has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:17:57 -!- Siber has joined ##crawl-dev 19:18:19 TGWi: just keep going, that page is almost finished 19:18:24 felirx is coding on it right now 19:18:29 :D 19:19:55 dpeg: the hellbinder one. 19:20:04 it looks like the CK description will need to be trimmed 19:20:09 -!- karmatic has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:20:32 or are we writing different descriptions? 19:21:15 oh god that's terrible 19:21:23 stalker: The Stalker is an Assassin [...] 19:21:32 assassin: An Assassin is a Thief [...[] 19:22:04 due: is it otherwise finished? 19:22:22 TGWi: oh, you don't have to write the descriptions. 19:22:31 (And no, felirx is not doing that, I think.) 19:22:33 thief: A thief is not very useful [...] 19:22:55 I don`t think I`ve the experience (or time) to provide good descirptions 19:23:14 and they would be like "A human, average on everything, pick something else" 19:25:53 ok, there's already a problem 19:26:04 "space - pick background first" definitely does not work 19:26:46 as long as you keep the backgrounds and commands aligned, do wat you want from my point of view 19:26:58 if you misaling the two tables, my perfectionisms hits you with a club 19:27:06 felirx: <3 19:27:29 TGWi: don't worry about the screen. If you want to come up with descriptions, that's nice. 19:27:34 But one line only! 19:27:35 -!- keithburgun has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:27:40 At most two. 19:27:41 don't worry about the screen? 19:27:45 is that solved? 19:28:05 also, don't we have six? 19:28:06 :[ 19:28:12 the last one posted seems petty good, although it will have some unused estate if you only use one line for desc 19:31:49 -!- ais523 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:32:25 felirx: don't worry about unused space :) 19:32:30 TGWi: six whatß 19:32:38 free lines 19:32:48 although I don't suppose someone would care to read six lines 19:33:02 races might take a bit more to sum up, yeah? 19:33:14 you can use 6 lines if you make the lines very brief, bulletpoint type 19:33:22 but if you write a 6 line wall of text 19:33:27 yeah :P 19:33:47 grr, someone add a species really quick 19:33:57 multiples of 3 need me 19:35:34 -!- karmatic has joined ##crawl-dev 19:37:18 dpeg: It's otherwise finished. 19:37:46 due: oh, blammo. How many tiles are needed? 19:38:23 dpeg: Oh, none 19:38:26 dpeg: I just need to set them 19:38:40 dpeg: I had to revert the flowers in Eringya because we don't have any flower tiles; I've made them toadstools for the minute. 19:38:42 03due * r939a76e4b1dd 10/crawl-ref/source/ (spl-book.cc spl-util.cc spl-util.h): Fix #1064, conjurations in rods being highlighted for Vehumet. 19:38:49 Which fits in with the theme of Fedhasite. 19:38:56 I'm still not happy with how Eringya's map looks in Tiles, but... 19:39:29 actually, let's remove minotaur 19:39:45 TGWi: What? no 19:39:47 s/minotaur/mountain dwarf 19:39:53 which line do we want an extra race in? 1, 2, or 3? 19:40:01 Mi stays. 19:40:02 . 19:40:04 3. 19:41:03 !tell doy Can you cherry-pick 939a76e4b1dd as-is? I know there are some 0.6 changes for spell highlighting; I can do up a different patch if preferred. 19:41:03 due: OK, I'll let doy know. 19:42:16 rather, which line do we NOT want an extra race in? 19:42:49 I accidentally left DD out 19:43:58 3, right? 19:46:20 dpeg: pong 19:46:21 doy: You have 3 messages. Use !messages to read them. 19:46:25 !messages 19:46:26 (1/3) due said (4d 12h 34m 47s ago): I'm sorry, I dropped the ball. Move forward with the release, if it can get squeezed in later, that is fine; the game iwll not be broken without it. 19:46:28 !messages 19:46:29 (1/2) by said (8h 21m 39s ago): mlist targeting should be fixed by 934a388c,e93d0ce7,dd1455d4,a561b8d8 19:46:32 !messages 19:46:34 (1/1) due said (5m 30s ago): Can you cherry-pick 939a76e4b1dd as-is? I know there are some 0.6 changes for spell highlighting; I can do up a different patch if preferred. 19:47:07 Space - Pick background fir Tab - Ghoul Ice Elementalist 19:47:46 perhaps we could ditch the "first?" 19:49:39 doy: here! 19:49:56 -!- pointless_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:49:58 move the Space over to the right side 19:50:36 how? 19:51:42 For example, by putting help to the left 19:51:50 doy: yes? 19:51:52 dpeg: oh, sorry, that was due that pinged me 19:51:53 (: 19:52:29 hmm 19:52:41 doy: Do you need a separate patch? 19:52:54 does it matter if we use different columns for specieses and backgrounds? 19:52:56 due: haven't looked through patch stuff yet, i'll do that in a bit 19:53:05 doy: Also, I just nooticed some rather major issues in wizlab. I have't committed yet (completely missed setting tiles for one of the maps). Can this still go into 0.6? 19:53:11 due: yes 19:53:12 because I have lots of horizontal space on the species 19:53:36 fixing major issues is the reason this is still an rc rather than an actual release 19:53:39 (: 19:53:54 :) 19:54:11 well, "major" as in no random monster lists (shadow creatures borked), one map completely missing tiles, and most of the entrances missing tiles. 19:54:12 interpreting these emoticons is giving me whiplash 19:56:33 felirx: do you mind if the specieses and backgrounds are unaligned? 20:00:01 TGWi: I believe that aligned is better. 20:00:14 But really, all of these are very minor points. 20:00:53 so should I put tab and space on seperate lines in both? 20:01:35 TGWi: you can also use three columns for the shortcuts 20:02:45 mm 20:04:10 also, sleep 20:04:16 :[ 20:04:18 night, dpeg 20:05:08 night ploogster 20:06:50 TGWi: what? 20:07:12 You have three columns and five lines -- there will be a nice solution :) 20:08:48 I don't know about interalignment between screens 20:09:17 but if the commands section and the selections section is on different aligns, it screams out straight away 20:12:04 how about we remove races? 20:12:11 the species select looks much nicer 20:13:16 -!- Mu_ has quit [Quit: Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place.] 20:18:07 -!- TGWi has left ##crawl-dev 20:18:34 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: sleep] 20:22:25 Tiles done. 20:22:39 but if I do tiles, I may as well do descriptions. 20:23:22 btw, one of the features me and Eino played around with was player dolls next to the selections in the species/background menu 20:24:40 Ew tiles. 20:42:49 That took altogether too long. 20:43:40 Award for long commit mesage time! 20:44:19 03due * rb14b56fe1ce9 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/portals/wizlab.des: Finalise Wizard Laboratories for 0.6. 20:45:05 !tell doy b14b56fe1ce9 is the WizLab changes. If you don't want the whole thing, I can split it up into parts. It's mostly just visual ick fixes plus resolving some bugs. 20:45:05 due: OK, I'll let doy know. 20:45:19 Tea and crosswords time, ciao. 21:00:49 -!- TGWi has joined ##crawl-dev 21:02:41 -!- Vandal has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:04:46 so I'm terrible at making boilers 21:06:36 -!- karmatic has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:06:44 -!- Vandal has joined ##crawl-dev 21:06:59 hi van 21:27:37 -!- TGWi has left ##crawl-dev 21:42:09 -!- stabwound has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:46:37 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 21:56:39 so in the notes screen, shoals makes it all out of line and it bugs me 21:56:42 118688 | Lair:2 | Learned a level 6 spell: Simulacrum 21:56:42 118724 | Shoals:1 | Entered Level 1 of the Shoals 21:56:45 the second | 21:59:11 because it was renamed Shoal:X to Shoals:X I guess 22:00:48 file! 22:00:49 doy: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 22:01:07 !messages 22:01:08 (1/1) due said (1h 16m 3s ago): b14b56fe1ce9 is the WizLab changes. If you don't want the whole thing, I can split it up into parts. It's mostly just visual ick fixes plus resolving some bugs. 22:03:45 -!- Siber2 has joined ##crawl-dev 22:07:05 -!- Siber has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:07:26 -!- Siber has joined ##crawl-dev 22:08:05 -!- Siber2 has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:13:20 It probably needs to be adjusted by 1. 22:29:18 -!- purge has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:51:59 -!- karmatic has joined ##crawl-dev 22:55:14 -!- megaboz has joined ##crawl-dev 22:59:13 -!- [1]GrimmSweeper has joined ##crawl-dev 22:59:13 -!- GrimmSweeper has quit [Disconnected by services] 22:59:15 -!- [1]GrimmSweeper is now known as GrimmSweeper 23:48:28 -!- karmatic has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:48:55 -!- karmatic has joined ##crawl-dev 23:50:56 -!- eric_c_c has joined ##crawl-dev 23:51:54 -!- ericc_c has joined ##crawl-dev 23:54:13 -!- karmatic has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:55:15 -!- eric_c_c has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:56:18 -!- ericc_c has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:56:55 -!- stabwound has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:58:44 -!- eric_c_c has joined ##crawl-dev 23:59:02 somethingawful is back to their usual whiny selves again, it seems 23:59:10 they were doing pretty well for a while 23:59:25 doy: yeah, they seem to be rather good at missing the point, and whinging. 23:59:42 they were complaining about fedhas last I checked...