00:37:49 Woo! Release Candidate! 00:37:52 Congrats! 00:38:28 whoo! 00:43:23 !tell dpeg If you want music for Crawl, it has to be procedurally generated. :> 00:43:24 Keskitalo: OK, I'll let dpeg know. 00:43:47 Ah, he said that next. 00:45:11 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:47:29 -!- murphy_slaw has quit [Quit: murphy_slaw] 00:48:33 -!- murphy_slaw has joined ##crawl-dev 00:49:10 -!- felirx_ has joined ##crawl-dev 00:49:49 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 00:52:18 -!- felirx has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:15:10 Keskitalo: Hey now. 01:15:24 Keskitalo: That might be a fun contest. 01:16:02 Keskitalo: If you added some hooks into an audio library that was notified if you were safe or about to die, or confused, or in danger. 01:16:05 And selected a song. 01:16:15 If it was subtle enough it wouldn't be stupid as hell ;-) 01:16:32 There are great MIDI artists out there. 02:24:36 -!- felirx_ has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 02:25:00 -!- felirx has joined ##crawl-dev 02:38:32 -!- by has joined ##crawl-dev 02:39:25 doy: yay for release candidate! 02:39:44 -!- ixtli has quit [Quit: ixtli] 02:40:26 Yay RC's! 02:40:41 Guess what else is in RC stage? 02:53:14 -!- ixtli has joined ##crawl-dev 03:28:53 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 03:29:03 Apocalypse! 03:29:03 dpeg: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 03:29:33 APOCALYPSE FROM THE SKY 03:29:58 !messages 03:29:58 (1/1) Keskitalo said (2h 46m 34s ago): If you want music for Crawl, it has to be procedurally generated. :> 03:30:17 !seen Keskitalo around? 03:30:18 I last saw Keskitalo at Wed Mar 10 06:43:47 2010 UTC (2h 46m 30s ago) saying Ah, he said that next. on ##crawl-dev. 03:30:39 Keskitalo around? 03:31:34 Keskitalo is sitting next to me 03:31:51 he's here in a minute 03:33:35 dpeg: Yo! 03:37:26 Keskitalo: Hi! I wrote a mail to keithburgun about my basic ideas for the music. Do you want to get it, too? 03:38:07 dpeg: Yeah, I've thought about a bit earlier. Would Keith be up to designing/implementing it? 03:38:31 dpeg: Linley uses a lot of procedural(ish) music/sounds in his games, by the way. 03:41:42 Keskitalo: oh, we could ask *him* :) 03:42:01 Absolutely. :) 03:42:08 Keith is a composer and musician, and he expressed interest in helping here. 03:42:20 Let me send you my mail to him to you. 03:42:26 or whatever grammar :) 03:42:35 Awesome grammar. :) 03:42:58 Yeah, that (music) would be cool. 03:43:51 Keskitalo: I want not only randomly generated music, but it should also react to certain triggers. 03:44:21 Yeah, we already track tension so it should be used. 03:45:08 Keith pointed out that it's a bad idea to use music for abrupt changes... and I think these should get sounds instead (so a separate source of noises, for shrieks, battle sounds etc. 03:45:31 But some, not-as-shortterm things could use modulation of the music, I hope 03:45:33 read the mail :) 03:46:09 I recall we have (had?) sound code already.. I agree about abrupt changes. 03:46:16 in deus ex, after the player has being shot at, the music runs faster 03:46:29 doomrl does sound effects pretty well 03:46:54 Keskitalo: the thing we have now allows playing sound files, triggered by messages. 03:47:02 These would be "sounds" in my system, not "music". 03:47:14 bhaak: is it a real time game? 03:47:16 Yeah, absolutely. 03:48:19 Keskitalo: I foresee a "Music" option in the starting screen for DCSS 1.2 era :) 03:48:28 dpeg: yes, a nethacky realtime FPS/Sneak game 03:48:54 bhaak: I see. This (music changing directly upon events) is easier in real time games. 03:49:02 easier to do well, that is 03:49:40 !tell greensnark Heißölrücksitzabdämpfung 03:49:41 dpeg: OK, I'll let greensnark know. 03:50:42 measuring (keeping up) tension is a bit hard in a turn-based game. you can't prevent the player taking a break :) 03:50:49 !messages 03:50:49 (1/1) dpeg said (1m 9s ago): Heißölrücksitzabdämpfung 03:50:51 bhaak: exactly 03:50:57 bhaak: we measure tension, and it works well 03:51:09 dpeg: for a turn-based game. 03:51:14 but even if the character is berserk, the player should take it slow 03:51:24 I wouldn't use music though :P 03:51:28 I only play online :P 03:51:42 greensnark: there will be a day when you can have online + music :) 03:51:47 Unless we do the mythical UI layer separation 03:51:49 greensnark: you know jpeg wants to kill dgamelaunch, surely 03:51:58 Hi sorear! 03:52:04 Yeah, well, I'm not holding my breath for that, it's a lot of work 03:52:09 Crawl is going to become a creeping horror that infests all layers of the network stack 03:52:15 sorear: you're fine with Robert's stab at the scales? 03:52:26 And anybody doing it is going to be in a world of merge hurt given the amount of code tunrover 03:53:00 sorear: is that pro or con to dgl? 03:53:27 crawling horrors are awesome, sorear 03:53:37 dpeg: no objections to Robert, no 03:53:43 (Cryp71c?) 03:54:20 dpeg: very much pro to dgl, replicating the stuff paxed has done for us would be an unthinkable effort 03:55:06 Ooh, Shoals, splat! 03:55:10 * greensnark claps. 03:55:17 !lg * Shoals -tv 03:55:23 just separate crawl into a server-client programm, that'll make it easier :) 03:55:25 106. Dougiegee, XL15 DEFE, T:39664 requested for FooTV. 03:55:55 Btw, does any server use the NhExt protocol for NH tiles? 03:56:03 dpeg: yeah, i'm not sure you quite appreciate just how much effort a client/server crawl would be 03:56:06 (: 03:56:12 greensnark: AFAIK, not yet 03:57:00 sorear: okay, as long as Robert is willing to go DS, there'll be mails among us three. Read them and drop a line if you think things move in a wrong direction, okay? 03:57:06 sure 03:57:24 sorear: I am absolutely fine with dgl... but do you say that tiles & server will remain elusive forevermore? 03:58:24 well, it's certainly not an impossible task... i mean, client/server games do exist 03:58:49 but it would require rewriting a good bit of the game 03:59:01 sorear: I will keep the DS wiki updated, so that progress is transparent. 03:59:07 it would be on the scale of several man-months to build a client-server crawl without feature regression 03:59:21 doy: well, tiles play on server would crush NH :) 03:59:32 And don't forget that while doing the work you'll have daily merge massacres :P 03:59:37 several mammoths? 03:59:40 and as greensnark pointed out, the codebase changes so incredibly quickly that the resulting merge afterwards would be basically impossible to resolve 04:00:01 if we're willing to abandon stuff like spectatability and transport independance, it's doable on a volunteer scale (c.f. TileHack) 04:00:16 "merge massacres", what a lovely mental image 04:00:19 yes 04:00:23 doy: the only reasonable way to do something like this is incrementally and on master 04:00:53 hm, and I had hoped that I could watch somebody's tiles game in my 80x24 console :) 04:00:56 sorear: well, if you can think of a way to do it that doesn't leave master in a broken state for a few weeks... 04:00:58 (: 04:01:22 s/weeks/months/, etc 04:01:26 You'll spend a lot of your energy figuring out how to change stuff without breaking master :) 04:01:45 Anyway, I for one am insufficiently interested in the end result :P 04:01:46 Sure, but the alternative is worse 04:01:49 Merge massacres 04:01:52 Exactly! 04:02:12 So it's out of the question to simply send (diffs of) the game state around and let the end-user build his display (tiles or console) from that? 04:02:31 you want only viewing? that could be much easier 04:02:39 dpeg: It's not out of the question, but it would require reinventing dgamelaunch 04:03:21 bhaak: the game is on the server, everyone can pull date (watch), only the player can send information (play) 04:03:30 s/date/data/ 04:03:41 a duplication of code/features, where the game state is saved in a different format than tty-escape-codes? 04:04:11 perhaps, yes 04:05:09 playing would then still be tty-only, but you could watch with different viewers. Tiles/HTML/iPhone/Mobile, you just need a hoard of developers who would do it :-) 04:05:44 I have no idea what the complicated part about this is... defining an efficient way of sending gamestates? 04:06:05 crawl already has the ability to dump the screen in-game at any time? 04:06:26 that would be a crude way of doing it. just dump the whole screen every turn 04:08:31 but the screen would have to be encoded in an abstracted, so that the viewer has enough information to build the screen the way he likes it. but that is probably orthogonal to everything you already have in tty and tiles display. that means, the viewers would have more-or-less be written from scratch 04:09:06 oh my god, thinking about that gives me far too much ideas 04:09:48 bhaak: yes, for viewing, it'd be best to send the whole map when entering a new level; then only diffs (what's new compared to last turn) and to send all the numbers (HP, etc) separately. 04:10:20 This should make for small packets when watching a game. 04:10:36 And the viewer can assemble it in any way he likes, for example with tiles. 04:10:45 at this point, I don't think there's a need to worry about bandwidth 04:10:59 dpeg: for a crude proof-of-concept, dumping the whole screen every turn is the easiest part. If you do diffs, it will get a lot more complicated and error-prone 04:11:07 bhaak: agreed. 04:11:22 er 04:11:25 see also: the ttyrec format 04:11:43 doy: is it efficient? 04:11:45 how does the game engine prompt you when you get the opportunity to randomly teleport? 04:12:00 I would suggest to start on this by dumping player-available information through Lua; if something important is missing, add lua bindings 04:12:23 dpeg: well, it's effectively just a series of diffs from the initial state of a blank terminal 04:12:31 which makes it pretty error prone 04:12:47 doy: but it builds diffs on the console screen output, right? 04:12:58 by: then after that, rewrite the hud/etc as a lua script 04:13:03 I think that the involved state machine and protocol is more complex than you guys think it is 04:13:13 doy: yes, I think that would be a good thing 04:13:14 isn't it even only a recording of the tty stream with timing information? 04:13:22 bhaak: yes 04:14:11 dpeg: so no, it doesn't do diffs by itself. the diffs are generated by the programm sending the codes, like nethack or crawl. 04:14:13 elly: this is what me and sorear have been saying(: 04:14:34 doy: so my point is that the diffs should be built for the whole level/monster/player information. This should be more universal, and diffs of similar size. 04:14:38 dpeg: the ncurses library, specifically, is what calculates the necessary diffs 04:14:59 oh, I always forget that crawl uses ncurses :) 04:15:43 dpeg: as i said before, i'm well aware that there are several ways in which this sort of thing is possible... my issues are with the details 04:15:44 so crawl doesn't even always know in detail when the screen gets updated or completely new-drawn 04:15:46 (: 04:16:16 like 04:16:23 the involved protocol is necessarily two-way 04:16:34 and necessarily has a state machine at both ends 04:16:39 (at least for the 'player' client) 04:16:48 to get interactivity, I think further abstracting crawl input processing from a stream of characters would be a good first step: instead of CMD_CAST_SPELL,'a',CMD_TARGET_SELECT, get something like {CMD_CAST_SPELL,SPELL_MAGIC_DART,targeting} where targeting is an instance of dist 04:17:18 elly: we've been talking about a 'viewer-only' client ATM 04:17:31 without changing the implementation of the player client? 04:18:19 * sorear -> sleep 04:18:23 so this would be more similar to termcast than to dgamelaunch then 04:18:35 and not very useful for a public server 04:18:50 elly: at least not user-visible. the player client would still be on the server and the viewer-client (maybe only a browser?) would be able to display e.g. the tty game in tiles 04:19:05 viewing games isn't useful for a public server? 04:19:23 I mean, mostly this sounds like it causes there to be a fuckload more code 04:19:30 how would the tiles player client be on the server? 04:19:31 for two fundamentally different drawing modes 04:19:52 elly: I would hope if someone does this, all the old viewing code would become obsolete 04:20:01 eventually :) 04:20:07 yikes :P 04:20:45 bhaak: if you have a viewer locally and the actual game running on the server, you still need a two-way protocol 04:21:05 a 'viewer-only' client doesn't make sense in that sort of situation 04:24:51 really, crawl should just interact with the user's terminal without caring about whether that's local or not 04:25:13 sure 04:25:14 doy: polling (it's ugly, but it works) 04:25:40 polling on the remote server? 04:25:49 you think that'll give an acceptable amount of latency? 04:25:50 d: 04:26:28 anybody with a latency >30sm -> tough luck ;-) 04:28:19 but some sort of streaming would also work 04:29:19 how well did pre-opengl tiles play with remote X11? 04:42:29 yo 04:42:44 hi due 04:44:56 Hi due! 04:45:44 not reaally here, just about to go for a jog 04:45:52 well, s/jog/workout/g 05:10:48 Hi, also, "Ow". 05:11:02 Hurt? 05:13:04 one possibility would be to embed escape codes into the ttyrec stream that would only be interpreted by the viewer client (extra tile info, what is drawn in what window, etc) 05:13:41 The good ow. 05:26:16 Hey so. 05:26:32 I've been working with the display code for a few weeks now, and I don't think that it would be the biggest deal to be a view-only client. 05:27:05 To do it /right/ it would, as previously mentioned, require reworking a good portion of how user input is handled, but it would only really amount to a few translation functions and more enumerations 05:28:25 paxed: Actually that's a really interesting idea. 05:31:07 choose an escape code not used by any terminal, and the same stream can be spectated with both terminals and the graphical viewer. 05:31:08 bhaak: Why poll? Why not register with the server and have the server push updates? 05:31:22 paxed: Indeed. We could just look at how nethack does this. 05:31:27 paxed: well, nh servers. 05:32:19 ixtli: polling is the simplest way to implement such a thing. not the best or efficient way, but the simplest 05:32:33 Doesn't paxed run a nethack server? ;) 05:32:41 Hahaha' 05:32:56 Honestly morphing tiles into a client/server wouldn't be /that/ hard. 05:32:57 ixtli: ttyrecs are streamed the same way in nh servers as CDO/CAO. it's the same server software :) 05:33:02 You could use libevent instead of threading. 05:33:04 It would be cool. 05:33:29 bhaak: Cool :D I've looked at/hacked client/server apps but never built a production one from the ground up. 05:33:56 ixtli: for nh there's nhproxy: http://www.nongnu.org/nhproxy/ (but I think there's only one client ATM) 05:34:23 But I guess libevent isn't exactly portable. 05:34:31 I'll look into it after ipad port. 05:34:31 :) 05:34:44 Cause then I'd have motivation to make the client as portable as possible. 05:35:05 bhaak: Isn't the HTML/JavaScript/AJAX nethack tiles client basically doing a glyph-by-glyph translation? 05:35:56 due: For a viewer, you'd want a glyph by glyph translation of the screen to keep people from exploiting. 05:35:57 You don't wanna be sending gamestate. 05:36:00 I'd assume. 05:37:08 due: I don't know how it works internally. There's also a facebook nethack app 05:37:55 Hm. 05:43:22 Well, yeah. Part of the issue is the minimap, inventory, etc. 05:43:23 I'm not sure a viewer that mimics the exact tcurrent tiles interface is possible. 05:43:23 it could send player-known game state (env.show, env.map_knowledge, output of get_monster_info) 05:43:23 the client lua bindings go to some pains to make sure the state they export is safe 05:43:23 hmm, tilehack's diff is remarkably small 05:43:23 * ixtli installs facebook nethack 05:43:23 -!- Ashenzari has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:44:00 -!- Ashenzari has joined ##crawl-dev 05:44:00 -!- The topic of ##crawl-dev is: DCSS development channel! | Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki | Ashenzari source: http://github.com/doy/crawlbot 06:00:13 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 06:01:01 It sucks. 06:01:10 Only numbers for movement. 06:03:26 'O' -> numpad = 'off' ? 06:13:04 Yeah I can configure it otherwise. 06:13:05 But. 06:13:16 In less time I can not play it in a java applet on facebook xD 06:19:33 are you talking about networked tiles? 06:20:34 Rupert the shadow dragon went berserk, but I guess that's fine 06:21:44 Rupert the sphinx (berserk) 06:23:45 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 06:32:04 syllogism: awesome 06:45:34 felirx: Yeah. 06:45:47 I dunno, the thesis of my argument is that it wouldn't be that big a deal. 06:47:02 felirx: Hi there! 06:47:45 due: the tilehack outputs unicode encoded glyphs, which break on non-unicode terminals, iirc. 06:49:02 for some reason jellies aren't affected by mutagenic clouds 06:49:07 any jelly 06:49:07 @??jelly 06:49:07 jelly (04J) | Speed: 9 | HD: 3 | Health: 15-30 | AC/EV: 0/2 | Damage: 808(acid) | Flags: amphibious, see invisible | Res: 06magic(12), 03poison, 08acid+++, asphyx | XP: 21. 06:49:16 Hm 06:49:18 This is odd 06:49:36 It relies on ::can_polymorph or whatever. 06:49:57 return (holiness() == MH_NATURAL || holiness() == MH_PLANT); 06:50:02 oh 06:50:29 What does wand of polymorph do? 06:50:44 works fine 06:51:41 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 06:54:23 Hm. 06:54:46 I don't see how it can 06:54:52 Ahhh 06:54:59 It directly calls polymorph. 06:55:12 Oh. 06:55:19 Never mind 06:55:23 && !monster->res_asphyx()) 07:09:49 -!- eith has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:12:00 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 07:13:32 03by * r43d4dacb0425 10/crawl-ref/source/main.cc: Allow redoing userfunctions. 07:13:34 03by * r5337e7e8dc81 10/crawl-ref/source/ (enum.h macro.cc macro.h main.cc state.cc state.h): Clean up command repeating. 07:13:34 03by * ra79bbad8a269 10/crawl-ref/source/main.cc: Allow repeating userfunctions. 07:18:26 -!- by has quit [Disconnected by services] 07:18:28 -!- by_ has joined ##crawl-dev 07:22:00 -!- dpeg has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:22:09 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 07:23:02 you get "You've starved to death" spam when death's door is in effect and the game thinks you starved 07:23:49 to be fair you can't cast spells when starving so you'd have to draw famine or something 07:23:51 syllogism: livesaving in general is pretty buggy 07:24:18 but indeed, it's a good catch 07:24:22 another thing nh and crawl have in common :) 07:24:33 init toggle for starvation nanny (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1040) by erisdiscordia 07:24:51 I wonder how many of these death's door bugs have been there since 1.0 07:24:55 what the hell... in the article about swimming cats (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_Van), check out the name on the second photo 07:25:58 -!- dpeg_ has joined ##crawl-dev 07:26:04 well actually i suppose the spell hunger hit from death's door would do it too 07:26:06 !seen felirx 07:26:06 I last saw felirx at Wed Mar 10 12:19:33 2010 UTC (1h 6m 33s ago) saying are you talking about networked tiles? on ##crawl-dev. 07:26:12 Erik is filing bugs? 07:26:19 due: yes :) 07:26:29 due: well, rather filing weird feature requests. 07:26:29 And dying to my uniques :) 07:26:49 due: He wants an option so that Starving allows autoexplore again :) 07:26:57 I don't see why not. 07:27:09 It prevents autotravel as well, I'm pretty sure. 07:27:09 options = bad 07:27:18 So if you're heading back to a stash of food and you can't autotravel... 07:27:20 I bet he doesn't even use autoexplore when starving 07:27:28 syllogism: I bet he does. 07:27:30 but rather manually moves 07:27:33 there`s multiple ways to make networked tiles to work 07:27:55 traditional approach is the server - client thing naturall, whereas the server keeps track of state on the server and client sends updates 07:29:09 felirx: yes, that's true. What other choices are there? 07:29:29 screen sorta like 07:29:39 so that you connect to the actual x-env on the server 07:29:45 but that takes huge amount of bandwith afaik 07:30:28 The mottled draconian knight roars! 07:30:28 The mottled draconian knight spits sticky flame at itself. 07:30:29 The sticky flame hits the mottled draconian knight. 07:30:41 I didn't even do anything :P 07:30:48 it wasn't confused? 07:30:51 No 07:31:16 did it really spit at itself? wow 07:31:36 maybe it was encumbered by stacks of scrolls? 07:31:39 Also, these dracs are seriously messing with my MuPr :P 07:32:27 Maybe that is the mottled drac equivalent of gorillas beating their own chests? 07:32:43 hehe 07:33:09 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 07:34:08 I should sleeep 07:35:21 due: and can't? 07:36:35 For some reason I'm waiting on this CD to finish burning. 07:46:50 my shoals are empty 07:47:50 no monsters? 07:47:54 few 07:48:24 really need a force_more for bazaar and labyrinths 07:48:34 by_: yes, agreed 07:54:41 Help still refers to "classes" (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1041) by erisdiscordia 07:59:42 Easier page transition to Mantis from Wiki (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1042) by erisdiscordia 08:56:13 I wonder how hard it would be to disable Jiyva in 0.6 08:58:52 by_: do you think that's necessary? 09:00:26 certainly not necessary 09:00:47 but Jiyva doesn't seem to be "done" 09:02:14 -!- ortoslon has joined ##crawl-dev 09:03:09 by_: it's a side god, much moreso than Beogh or Lugonu. 09:03:24 I think we can only expect feedback by leaving him in. 09:05:10 -!- Solvent has joined ##crawl-dev 09:06:55 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 09:07:51 by_: I love the idea of jelly slurp healing you 09:08:05 This will create incentive to call for jellies on new levels right away 09:08:22 and I don't see how it clashes with Xom -- where does Xom something similar? 09:12:54 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 09:13:50 dpeg_, morning 09:13:56 Hi 09:19:54 dpeg_: well, xom does occasional potion effects; it's probably better if we don't have a mapping of eaten item to effect 09:20:48 by_: ah, right 09:20:54 I suppressed that right away :) 09:21:03 slurp -> some healing is good 09:21:08 paxed, are you in? 09:21:24 I am wondering.. is commands[login] working for you at all? 09:24:02 !tell paxed Hi Paxed! Could you do me a favor and check on whether commands[login] and commands[gamestart] words for you? Can't seem to get it to work. Thanks! 09:24:03 Napkin: OK, I'll let paxed know. 09:27:30 Napkin: i'm sure those work on NAO; i don't rememeber changing them lately either... 09:27:30 paxed: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 09:27:33 !messages 09:27:34 (1/1) Napkin said (3m 31s ago): Hi Paxed! Could you do me a favor and check on whether commands[login] and commands[gamestart] words for you? Can't seem to get it to work. Thanks! 09:28:26 time for a query? 09:28:47 time for a query, paxed? 09:28:58 I mean.. do you have a minute? 09:30:05 Napkin: sure 10:10:40 -!- ortoslon has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:15:13 -!- karmatic has joined ##crawl-dev 10:21:23 -!- by_ is now known as by 10:26:34 What is the dprf funciton used for, and where can I find it? 10:27:09 it's like mprf, but only outputs things in debug builds 10:27:17 grep dprf *.h 10:30:07 by, grep only found it in mpr.h, which doesn't have any significant comments or an implementation. 10:30:29 grep '^void dprf' *.cc 10:33:03 -!- purge has joined ##crawl-dev 10:33:07 I just had the greatest idea I will ever have 10:33:13 X-Com: The Roguelike 10:33:17 :OOOOOO 10:33:40 Dwarf Fortress has already proven you can do 3D w/ ascii 10:33:49 03kilobyte 07debian * r57348b1f360a 10/crawl-ref/debian/ (changelog crawl-common.postinst crawl-common.postrm): Set the owner of the logfile and scores to games:games. Delete them on purge. 10:33:56 So the battle maps would be nearly identical to how they function in actual X-Com 10:34:03 vandal, X-Com is the shit 10:34:03 :D 10:34:05 03kilobyte 07debian * rc00e5d1d2b30 10/crawl-ref/debian/ (crawl-common.postinst crawl-common.postrm): Make postinst and postrm set -e, to make crybaby lintian happy. 10:34:05 03kilobyte 07debian * r6e542d8989f2 10/crawl-ref/debian/rules: Correctly install the manual. 10:34:12 cbus I am totally playing it again right now 10:34:27 vandal, UFO Enemey Unknown? 10:34:30 and in the shower I thought to myself "Man I wish someone would remake the original and TFtD" 10:34:30 yes 10:34:40 then I thought hey I wish I could do that 10:34:49 then I remembered DooM RL and DF 10:34:53 :O 10:35:27 pew pew space lazers 10:40:04 I think, there have been at least 2 people trying a x-com: the roguelike 10:40:14 yes.. it seems I've been beaten 10:40:15 http://orangescribblepad.blogspot.com/ 10:40:20 but, thank you very much, I think I prefer ufo-ai :) 10:40:22 this guy seems to have the most accomplished 10:41:17 I think I just got auto-explore killed by Blink Frogs. I pressed 'O' and started moving while Blink Frogs proceeded to beat me down. .6 RC 10:41:38 karmatic, were Blink frogs in LOS at the time you hit o? 10:42:04 Cryp71c, yes'sir 10:42:16 it was accident that I hit it 10:42:31 (i us Vi controls to move and hit it) 10:42:56 karmatic: have you changed runrest_ignore stuff? 10:43:14 karmatic, I'm testing it right now (in trunk) and behavior is as expected, I can't explore with the frogs in LOS 10:43:17 by, no 10:43:26 also, was this on the server? 10:43:35 Cryp71c, odd. this was on .6 RC tiles 10:44:00 karmatic, ah, well I'm not testing in tiles, for one. 10:44:04 it was weird, my guy just started moving erratic and I am nearly 99% sure I accidently hit 'o' 10:44:24 karmatic: can you file on mantis, please; ideally with save? 10:44:31 sure can 10:44:32 yes, save will be <23 10:44:34 <3* 10:44:44 well wait 10:44:53 how would I have a save if I'm dead 10:44:54 dpeg_, muwahaha, new scales are implemented. 10:46:51 haha, erik is still doing foodless 10:46:52 (: 10:51:51 how 10:52:05 I wonder how hard it would be to convert Powder into X-Com 10:53:13 dpeg_, I can hold onto this patch or send it on to sorear (or someone else) for review, let me know. 11:15:04 back 11:15:09 but gone for a while in a moment 11:34:28 -!- Solvent has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:42:08 oooh, a dgl heisenbug. thanks a lot, Napkin. 11:42:53 heisenbugs are one of those things that just can't be explained 11:50:02 oh? 12:02:26 -!- karmatic has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 12:09:39 * paxed slaps Napkin with a boiled oklob 12:09:56 Nah - just a napkinsonbug ;) 12:10:26 sorry paxed! 12:10:48 -!- murphy_slaw has quit [Quit: murphy_slaw] 12:14:23 Heisenbug? 12:16:22 wikipedia. 12:17:11 Madtrixr: basically, it's a bit of code that works fine until someone notices it's buggy, then it starts failing for everyone 12:17:19 hmm no, that's a schrodinbug 12:17:32 heisenbugs are just ones that can't be reproduced when you're trying to debug them 12:21:36 I had one of those today 12:22:20 opensuse on vmware regularly froze today, but after switching on debugging, it worked flawlessly 12:22:29 even after switching debugging off again! 12:26:55 hehe, bhaak 12:27:19 it wrote the please_dont_crash.conf in debugging mode ;) 12:29:57 ??geomancy 12:29:57 book of geomancy[1/1]: Spells: Sandblast, Stoneskin, Passwall, Stone Arrow, Summon Elemental, Lee's Rapid Deconstruction 12:32:13 ??practical magic 12:32:14 book of practical magic[1/1]: Spells: projected noise, selective amnesia, detect curse, dig, remove curse. 12:32:38 That's an awesome book once we remove Dig and Selective Amnesia as spells. 12:32:59 (: 12:33:06 ??book of earth 12:33:06 book of the earth[1/1]: Maxwell's Silver Hammer, Magic Mapping, Dig, Statue Form, Bolt of Iron, and Shatter. 12:33:30 that one loses two, too, but at least its other spells are decent 12:33:42 dpeg_: There was talk of removing the Dig spell (ok by me); how about Passwall for the Book of Changes? 12:34:00 ??passwall 12:34:00 passwall[1/5]: Allows passing through diggable wall/statues with a free turn (useful for stabbing) on the other side. Delay before passing is 2+depth turns and is stopped if attacked. Range is 1-13 based on earth/spell power; guaranteed minimum is 1+earth/8 tiles (max of 4, at skill 24). "Feels deep" means you'll survive, "extremely deep" means YOU WILL DIE. 12:34:07 ??passwall[2] 12:34:07 passwall[2/5]: To use passwall, you stand next to a qualifying wall you want to pass through, and you cast the spell on it. If you confirm the prompt, the necessary delay will occur, during which you are vulnerable to attack (and spell cancellation). If not interrupted, you'll then be either on the other side of the wall or dead. 12:34:14 is it earth/tmig? 12:34:17 Yeah. 12:34:26 yeah, that's probably decent 12:34:36 L3 too. 12:34:59 it's basically a purely noncombat spell by the look of it 12:35:06 as in, you can't safely use it while in combat 12:35:29 it's pretty useful for stabbing, from what i hear 12:35:35 Book of the Earth feels like it would need another spell once Dig is taken out (like MM is); wouldn't put Passwall everywhere though. 12:35:55 ais523: Sounds like it's useful if a big bruiser is coming at you, but is still steps away. 12:36:13 Keskitalo: 2+dlvl turns? 12:36:26 Oh, totally missed that. 12:36:28 if it was that far away, either you're in the very early game or it's out of sight 12:37:32 not dlvl 12:37:35 depth 12:37:41 hmm, there's a difference? 12:37:44 as in, how many tiles you're moving through 12:37:46 ah 12:37:58 (i'm pretty sure anyway) 12:38:08 Ahh. 12:38:13 incidentally, isn't that a "Die? (y/n)" prompt, if the wall feels extremely deep? 12:38:37 I vaguely recall the interface is saner in trunk. I've never used the spell, though. 12:39:10 yeah, you just get the "extremely deep" message with no prompt 12:39:48 does Okawaru gifting still works as the learndb entry states? he has given me ammo 4 times in a row, 2 of those times I've had > 55 ammo in my inventory. 12:40:04 it doesn't 12:40:17 the ammo restrictions were because ammo used to be really boring 12:40:35 so now he can give armour, weapons, or ammo, all at even chance? 12:40:46 yep, just verified that 12:40:48 i think it's armour or weapons/ammo 12:40:56 on coinflip 12:43:00 passwall is great for a stabber, but it would be better in the stalker starting book I think (it has petrify too, another earth spell) 12:45:21 rofl, Oka is pulling my chain. 12:45:35 5 gifts of arrows, then a bow (already had a bow of velocity :P) 12:46:04 ais523: it's not 2+dlvl but 2+wall width 12:46:14 ah, ok 12:46:18 Henzell's being misleading, then 12:46:59 try an EE in sprint 12:47:11 it's great for losing monsters 12:47:14 too bad henzell isn't user editable 12:47:16 oh wait 12:54:37 is the current tiles build on cdo without any major bugs? 12:54:44 that is the idea 12:55:04 if nobody finds any major bugs, it'll be the official release 12:57:04 because the major bugs will be found the day after the official release :) 12:57:20 of course 12:57:20 (: 13:23:43 Keskitalo: yes to Passwall instead of Dig in Changes. 13:24:24 !tell Keskitalo yes to Passwall instead of Dig in Changes. 13:24:24 dpeg_: OK, I'll let Keskitalo know. 13:24:36 Gosh, I had one beer which means I am drunk. 13:26:36 Hehee. :) 13:26:36 Keskitalo: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 13:27:20 Keskitalo: spoke with felirx today :) 13:27:21 Ooh, Petrify could be Earth/Trans. 13:27:27 yes, that too 13:27:34 dpeg_: Yeah, saw that. :> 13:28:01 There should be no problem for us to deliver The Report on Friday, too. 13:29:44 passwall doesn't fit "Changes" so well 13:29:59 i strongly dislike the idea of selective amnesia 13:30:24 by: Yeah, Petrify would be more thematic. 13:30:33 removing 13:30:36 the idea of removing* 13:30:58 syllogism: why? 13:31:15 it makes no sense as a spell 13:31:19 I like the idea of Selective Amnesia scrolls (I think there was one). 13:31:39 because removing it will just force the players not to use marginal or situational spells 13:31:41 Yes, amnesia should stay, just not as a spell. 13:31:44 yeah, adding items that grant selective amnesia would be fine 13:31:55 syllogism: that only depends on how many scrolls (say) there arae. 13:32:04 I don't think you can make a sweeping statement like this. 13:32:25 -!- st_ has quit [] 13:33:14 i think a scroll of selective amnesia at the rarity of blinking or so would be fine 13:38:45 hey, looks like cdo has taken over the #1 rank on google for dungeon crawl and "dungeon crawl" 13:39:02 -!- karmatic has joined ##crawl-dev 13:39:55 hah, and it's #2 for 'crawl', behind the wikipedia page for the word crawl 13:39:56 nice 13:41:11 and #7 for stone soup 13:43:09 very good 13:43:27 There could also be other sources of SA... for example a misc item that loses all your spells. 13:46:20 -!- st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 13:50:17 doesn't really matter if you add a scroll, though I don't think it particularily adds anything to the game. Better design, perhaps 13:50:27 and I'm not overall a fan of just removing spells 13:51:14 syllogism: Why not? Removing bad stuff is as important as adding new stuff. 13:51:21 *good new stuff, I hope 13:51:25 Cryp71c: you still around? 13:51:29 Yes 13:51:31 spells that provide permanent effects are bad design 13:51:35 yes, but I don't think selective amnesia or dig are bad 13:51:36 alter self should go too 13:51:43 doy: yes, that's a good summary 13:52:02 doy: I agree. I once made a proposal how to improve it, but that effect is just not made for a spell. 13:52:13 syllogism: Dig is not really a problem, SA is. 13:52:21 removing dig is fine since there are so many ways to dig, but as long as you can dig with Summon Elemental, you aren't accomplishing much 13:52:27 Cryp71c: thanks so much! Will you send your patch to sorear and me? 13:52:38 doy: I get dungeoncrawl.org as #1 for each of crawl, dungeon crawl and "dungeon crawl" 13:52:39 except make it more tedious 13:52:43 Otherwise, the same list. 13:52:56 dungeoncrawl.org is a bit of a bummer 13:53:04 would be nice to get in contact with the maintainer 13:53:50 Keskitalo: google uses your past searching habits to affect search results unless you explicitly disable it 13:54:22 dpeg_: at least it's not at the top of the search results for anything anymore 13:55:08 dpeg_, sent 13:56:16 dpeg_, alas, the page hasn't been changed in 3 years, I doubt much success will be had in contacting them :( 13:57:11 dpeg_, oh! and also...I implemented a patch to remove the blink / tele mutations several weeks ago. Its on mantis, if everything looks good with my scale patch, it would be <3 to see the tele patch go up as well. 13:58:06 doy: How do you disable it? Couldn't find it quickly.. 13:58:23 doy: I thought hey'd changed it recently to make it undisablable 13:58:32 as a result, I've been blocking cookies from Google ever since 13:58:35 Oh, the mean bastards. 13:59:02 Cryp71c: Was there concensus to remove blink and teleportation mutations? 13:59:05 Keskitalo: the "web history" link on the top right 13:59:27 -!- jld has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:59:40 dpeg_, I had presumed so, we had talked about it quite a while ago, and under your section of the DS ideas it says they're approved for removal 13:59:51 Okay, that was obviously too obious. :) 14:00:12 Ah, I misread the wiki entry, but we did discuss it here nonetheless 14:00:38 I still get dungeoncrawl.org on top. 14:01:23 Cryp71c: removed as a general mutation, or as a DS mutation? 14:01:37 -!- jld has joined ##crawl-dev 14:02:34 dpeg_, DS mutation...ah damn, except I just remembered I wrote that patch to remove it as a mutation altogether. 14:02:38 so that patch is no good anyways. 14:07:20 Cryp71c: blink and teleporation are boring DS mutations 14:07:32 At least I think we agreed on that. 14:07:38 As general mutations, they're okay. 14:07:43 dpeg_, very, even with hp costs they're bad 14:08:38 dpeg_, wanted to make sure we're on the same page, we're discussing teleport at will (not tele-itis) 14:09:29 yes 14:11:19 k, yeah. 14:15:53 did you implement the scales exactly as described on the wiki 14:15:57 ..its becomming more and more apparent that having ranged weapon skill is rather useless with Okawaru.. 14:15:59 syllogism, yes. 14:16:14 I've been gifted ammo 8 times. 14:21:41 syllogism: Is something wrong with the list on the wiki? 14:24:31 03kilobyte * r73bd21663083 10/crawl-ref/ (README.txt source/command.cc): s/class/background/ in a couple of places, one of them the main help menu! 14:37:49 dpeg: no, was just making sure before I checked the list 14:39:08 Cryp71c: well, the idea was to make oka more useful for hunters 14:39:21 we may have gone too far in the other direction, it could be adjusted some more 14:39:35 I don't care about Okawaru anyway, it 14:39:39 s the doomed god 14:39:50 dpeg_, lol why? 14:40:16 doy, ammo is nice but even if you get it every single gift, its still not amazing, and often its branded...which doesn't work well for a branded launcher 14:40:31 adjusting the gift timeout if ammo is selected would probably be the easiest (and most effective) Fix. 14:43:27 Cryp71c: I've been explaining so often why O is fundamentally flawed :) 14:44:10 no flavour, all effects are recycled 14:48:58 oh, and gifts are generally a bad idea if they're permanent 14:49:49 !seen sorear 14:49:49 I last saw sorear at Wed Mar 10 10:18:19 2010 UTC (10h 31m 30s ago) acting out sorear -> sleep on ##crawl-dev. 14:50:35 dpeg_, but with that line of thinking, any gift-giver is a bad idea, since all gifts are permanent? (Gear gifts, I mean) 14:50:45 Cryp71c: yes, gear gifts are bad 14:50:52 books aren't much better 14:51:08 if permanent stuff is bad, we should axe Xom, Jiyva, Trog, Nemelex, Cheibriados, Sif Muna, Vehumet and Kiku 14:51:13 meh, gear gifts are the only way limited-gear species do as well as they do. 14:51:24 Consumables are! So decks and monsters are much better. 14:52:16 xom doesn't really count, jiyva doesn't really give permanent gifts, trog should be changed with oka, nemelex gifts aren't permanent, chei doesn't have gifts, sif and vehu should be changed, kiku doesn't give permanent gifts (other than the necronomicon) 14:52:18 if you for whatever weird reason say that consumables are all ok, that leaves Xom, Jiyva, Trog, Okawaru, Cheibriados, Sif Muna, Vehumet and Kiku 14:52:38 Cryp71c: Yes, often I hear that "Okawaru is the only way to make [Foo] playable." But that shouldn't mean that we keep a broken god, but rather that we repair broken Foo. 14:52:43 Kiku grants all necro spellbooks 14:52:49 kilobyte: yes. 14:52:58 and like TSO and Lugonu permanently brands a weapon 14:52:59 spellbook gifting is planned to change 14:53:07 dpeg_, IDK, I don't find that Oka is all that broken, I guess I'm not sure what's wrong with gear-gifting. 14:53:09 Kiku is not much of a problem, he gives you all spells, by way of a few books. 14:53:25 branding isn't really an issue, since it's once-only 14:53:28 Cryp71c: I have explained this a billion of times :) 14:53:32 yes, branding is okay 14:53:47 Cryp71c: encourages grinding 14:53:47 X and J are okay, because of randomness in general (X) and of mutations (J) 14:53:58 gear-gifting is no worse than finding gear on the ground 14:54:09 gear on the ground is limited 14:54:15 doy, decrease monster spawn rates unless the orb has been obtained. 14:54:18 Sif's book are indeed not ideal, but, like Trog's weapons, less of an issue than Okawaru's armours. 14:54:37 kilobyte: unfortunately, it is 14:54:37 you choose an otherwise inferior god but have a better chance of getting equipment you need 14:54:54 But Okawaru's gifts are only *one* problem. The god is full of problems. 14:55:18 kilobyte: This isn't true with O, and even if it were, it's not good design imo. 14:55:22 Oka has problems, indeed, but his gifts are not one IMO. 14:55:30 all he gives is that, might, and haste. I dont see how either of those are 'full of problems' 14:55:31 If we want gifts, they could be much more exciting. 14:55:41 Cryp71c: two potion effects. 14:55:53 The god is extremely flat and boring. I played him, I know :) 14:56:42 how is he more flat or more boring than most other gods? I'd rank him among more interesting ones. 14:56:44 Two proposals that I like: Instead of plain gifts, O sends warriors who use/wear your gifts. Gifts are temporary, in order to keep them you have to wear them and show that you're a brave fighter. 14:57:06 eh, he's no more boring than Jiyva or Kiku or Mahkl 14:57:15 kilobyte: He is (for certain builds) the strongest god, mostly because he's reliable. 14:57:24 Cryp71c: a god who uses two potion effects? Come on. 14:58:02 Okawaru is the ultimate slot machine, more than any other god. 14:58:38 then we should fix the potion effects, since these cause a problem. Might is mostly ok, haste not so much. 14:58:38 uhm... Nemelex? 14:58:38 and Jiyva, and Xom 14:59:09 what about them? 14:59:22 and the problem isn't with the effects, it's that they're spammable 14:59:48 also that they're just duplicating the effects of potions 14:59:58 which is boring 15:02:16 for Might, we could make it instead set the weapon skill to 27. More thematic, and becomes useless in late game. 15:02:28 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 15:02:38 for Might, we could make it instead set the weapon skill to 27. More thematic, and becomes useless in late game. 15:02:41 Sorry, sometimes I lose connection to angband.pl. 15:02:49 -!- dpeg_ has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:02:49 doy, haste definitely isn't spammable 15:02:51 I guess I missed a lot. 15:02:52 -!- dpeg_ has joined ##crawl-dev 15:02:57 it has HUGE peity costs. 15:03:20 for Haste, it could be replaced with "Finesse" (half delay for melee combat only) 15:04:10 Even if you don't agree that O is boring from a design POV (but note that if someone would propose a god like that right now, we'd laugh at him), there's this: O produces very little choices. You will spam Might all the time. So one choice: should you use Haste? And the other use piety management to optimise gifts. 15:04:15 that might be better, less of a 'oh, this is too dangerous, get out of jail free ability' 15:04:18 That's a joke, if you ask me. 15:05:12 dpeg, I could dig having to defeat a gear-guardian to obtain a randart 15:05:15 Oh, and O has a tiny conduct: no allies. That's the whole flavour of the god. 15:05:18 uhm, and how is that different from any other god's abilities? 15:05:23 kilobyte: yes, it is 15:05:39 but its problematic if you make them too difficult, he'll be utterly useless for stealthy, lightweight chars. 15:05:40 It's hard to get allies without certain gods anyway 15:06:09 kilobyte: name a god, we talk about the choices he provides. 15:06:36 Xom? 15:06:41 Siber: :) 15:06:43 say, Makhleb, has Greater Demon, that's all. The other abilities are useless, save for Minor Destruction for mummies only. 15:07:02 kilobyte: they aren't useless 15:07:09 I have used all of them for good effect. 15:07:13 dpeg, I'm not against changing Oka, but I see balance issues if you leave stealthies (especially those with restricted slots) without a god. 15:07:25 Makhleb is about as simple as Okawaru from a design perspective, but works much better. 15:07:40 Minor Demon is useful only if you don't have the inv for Major Demon 15:07:41 dpeg, I wouldn't say better, different. 15:07:46 Major Destruction is outright useless 15:07:48 Contains no no-brainers and is attractive to a wider range of characters. 15:08:16 kilobyte: spamming minor demons can be effective for various purposes. 15:08:17 Minor Destruction has prohibitive food cost for damage hardly bigger than throwing a dart 15:08:26 dpeg, certain gods should be more attractive to some jobs than others, so that can't weigh in here. 15:08:44 Cryp71c: gods which only serve for small niches are worse than gods with broad audiences. 15:08:58 why would you spam Minor Demons instead of half the number of Greaters? 15:09:00 Cryp71c: ideally, god are skew to playing styles. 15:09:09 dpeg, oka has a wide audience atm. 15:09:28 Cryp71c: beyond "melee"? 15:09:37 the problem is Okawaru + MDFi, and since we knocked them from their pedestal, it's not that bad anymore 15:10:03 I've been thinking about and designing gods for years now, and Okawaru is simply a crutch of a god. 15:10:05 dpeg, 1) he's awesome for anyone with restricted slots and such, since he and trogg are the only gear-gifting gods (that I can think of) 15:10:21 uhm... races with limited armour slots may want Okawaru even as pure casters 15:10:29 He's good for all melee, including UC fighters and transmuters 15:10:40 I know people who play Okawaru no matter what character they're playing 15:10:44 But that's even more abuse: you choose the god only to grind out enough randarts. 15:10:48 design of Okawaru > > > > design of Cheibriados 15:10:52 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:10:58 I consider that a bad thing, though 15:10:59 kilobyte, I wouldn't say that, Chei is very niche. 15:11:01 -!- dpeg_ has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:11:04 I like him 15:11:07 kilobyte: there is no design of oka 15:11:17 "what would a player want to have in a god?" 15:11:18 done 15:11:19 doy, certainly, O is the shallowest god presently. 15:11:22 that's bad 15:11:27 -!- syllogism has quit [] 15:11:43 a god being popular means very little 15:11:58 yep; all it means is that the god's skew to playing styles (good), but not that it's good in any other way 15:12:09 like I said before, I'm fine with O being changed, but I feel like if its taken the wrong direction instead of a "god which is useful to mostly everyone" you'll end up with some chars who have no decent god to go. 15:12:17 then let's nerf him, it will decimate popularity 15:12:37 Oka is really the only god to go as a non-caster stealthy. 15:12:51 regardless of race, but especially as Ha and As 15:12:58 er, Sp 15:13:00 Cryp71c: that will be fixed 15:13:02 but there will be a stealth god 15:13:03 and Ko 15:13:04 Cryp71c: Makhleb? Nemelex? 15:13:13 we have several new god ideas in the works 15:13:21 Nemelex is a god for chars who could survive otherwise. 15:13:46 His gift timeouts are huge and his abilities, while nice, burn through the few good decks he gifts. 15:14:13 Makhleb, besides HP/MP gains, lets you win any combat at a large piety cost 15:14:35 and stealthy chars tend to end up with their pants down damn often 15:14:53 kilobyte, which means that 1 out of every 15 times they are in a shitty position, they'll be able to win that combat situation 15:15:04 the other 14 times they have to burn scrolls, pots, abilities, or pray for RNG to save them. 15:15:15 kilobyte: I wouldn't say that; screwing up a summon would mean you wouldn't win that combat after all 15:15:17 1/15 usefulness is worse than nemelex. 15:15:37 Cryp71c: that's a pretty ludicrous summary of the situation 15:15:47 screwing up a summon means you summon another demon 15:15:55 doy, perhaps a bit extreme, but its not very far off from reality. 15:15:58 also, i don't see anything wrong with not all combos being equally viable 15:16:11 // Kludge: We have to continue to support ch_stop_run. :-( 15:16:20 "the game's broken because i can't win halfling thief reliably!" 15:16:33 Cryp71c: you simply don't treat slightly disadvantaged situations as "shitty" and you'll have tons of piety to burn 15:16:46 that comment is dated 2006 -- do we really have to continue to support ch_stop_run? 15:16:47 right 15:17:17 i'm also not quite as convinced as dpeg that makhleb is perfect as is 15:17:27 but definitely not bad, or underpowered 15:17:49 doy, meh, in any case. stealth god ftw, especially if he has some clever gear gifting. 15:18:05 by: there's no other mention of ch_stop_run anywhere else, including settings and documentation 15:18:39 Makhleb is more balanced TSO. 15:19:05 Not so insanely overpowered in late-game branches, not useless elsewhere. 15:19:50 yeah 15:30:21 -!- ais523 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:34:31 -!- mr0t has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:34:39 -!- mr0t has joined ##crawl-dev 15:44:42 is wand acquirement supposed to give draining for TSO worshippers? 15:46:48 yeah, scroll acquirement doesn't take god into account 15:46:58 which seems fine 16:15:33 doy, I think acquirement might need to be looked at, if / when someone has the time. 16:16:00 The fact that everyone, 90% of the time takes a jewelry acquirement indicates that perhaps something more needs to be done for the other options? 16:18:56 yup 16:28:03 acquirement is balanced for Okawaru/Trog, and for these, unlike what dpeg thinks, they're balanced pretty well. That does make them useless for scroll, though. 16:28:46 I did attempt to fix this, but didn't improve them enough. 16:29:00 the acquirements for oka/trog aren't unbalanced in themselves 16:29:08 they're unbalanced in that you can grind for an infinite amount of them 16:29:46 For starters, I'd drop giving tiny weight to rare weapons like lajatangs, eveningstars, exec axes and so on -- for non-god acquirements, of course 16:31:11 -!- Nexos has joined ##crawl-dev 16:31:26 at least I tend to drop Okawaru later in the game, once you get a decent the chances for a good randart don't make further grinding worthy 16:32:02 TSO for demonic/undead branches or Lugonu for branch ends give you a bigger benefit 16:46:52 Quick access to last page of character notes (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1043) by Nexos 17:06:28 and borin 17:07:51 I want to recreate X-Com with an ascii / tile supporting graphic engine, anyone got advice for me on where to begin? 17:13:54 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:14:23 03kilobyte * r434f83e17938 10/crawl-ref/INSTALL.txt: Mention in INSTALL.txt that pkg-config is an absolute requirement for Unix tiles builds. 17:14:27 03kilobyte * r14640dfe85bf 10/crawl-ref/source/shopping.cc: Make deck price depend on rarity. Lower the price of low-end decks, no 17:23:54 due: hi 17:24:25 do you happen to know whether the travel_stop functionality in lm_tmsg.lua is actually required by anything? 17:26:20 No, it was a wishlist item by jpeg 17:26:52 And it's not particularly useful because the messages are quite rare. 17:27:25 the messages that I've seen seem to interrupt resting, etc. regardless 17:28:07 I'd like to to remove travel_stop_message entirely in favour of runrest, and was wondering whether it's ok to just remove that from lm_tmsg.lua for the moment 17:31:02 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 17:31:19 morning all 17:32:10 by: That's mostly what it does--I looked at how runrest was parsed and just made it so that you could add lines to it on the fly with Lua. 17:32:14 But yeah, I see your point about resting, etc. 17:34:01 think I'll remove it and see if that causes problems 17:35:26 it is present in the default config; removing it can be unwieldy as people have to copy the config to customize it so most would end up with broken settings 17:35:47 unlike junk like ch_stop_run which is neither documented nor mentioned anywhere 17:36:53 I'm making it an alias to runrest_stop_message for the config 17:39:14 by: you closed that bug report about trapdoor spiders submerging to avoid clouds; Caotto's commit fixes only another issue mentioned in the report, not the main problem 17:39:29 ah 17:39:35 sorry, will reopen 17:44:14 Hmm odd... "You feel your flesh rotting away" but not "Rot" message appearing 17:44:31 03by * r87e15d95a48a 10/crawl-ref/source/l_crawl.cc: Add lua binding for printing to stderr. 17:44:37 03by * r9f20fdce9a86 10/crawl-ref/source/delay.cc: Convert _userdef_interrupt_activity to maybe_bool. 17:44:37 03by * r9180ea4265a8 10/crawl-ref/source/delay.cc: Use dprf in interrupt_activity. 17:44:39 03by * r5151199fa919 10/crawl-ref/source/delay.cc: Remove ch_stop_run. 17:44:39 03by * r69e59028b7d4 10/crawl-ref/source/delay.cc: delay.cc: Move sanctuary check into _should_stop_activity. 17:44:40 Is there a explanation for this? 17:44:40 03by * r19deac8d3169 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/lua/runrest.lua: Generalize runrest.lua to allow stopping on messages. 17:44:42 03by * r6f2870adf228 10/crawl-ref/source/message.cc: Issue message interrupts for more channels. 17:44:43 03by * r29fc31328c66 10/crawl-ref/settings/ (init.txt runrest_messages.txt travel_stoppers.txt): Convert travel_stoppers.txt to use runrest. 17:44:45 03by * r14834be140ec 10/crawl-ref/docs/options_guide.txt: Update runrest documentation. 17:44:47 03by * r7ddcec03c6e1 10/crawl-ref/ (7 files in 4 dirs): Remove travel_stop_message. 17:44:52 Nexos: it might have lasted less than a turn? 17:45:19 Aren't turns the smallest aut? 17:47:52 nope 17:48:12 -!- pointless_ has joined ##crawl-dev 17:48:17 turns tend to be 10 aut long 17:49:01 I think it may be easiest to just plain out stop trapdoor spiders from using submerging against clouds, cracks in the floor won't save you from gas, unlike water. 17:51:59 I think that's a good idea 17:52:25 +1 18:02:41 -!- Vandal has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:03:31 03kilobyte * rff0a45232f27 10/crawl-ref/source/monster.cc: Don't let trapdoor spiders escape clouds by submerging while in sight. 18:04:09 -!- Vandal has joined ##crawl-dev 18:08:34 -!- timecircuits has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:13:23 Hm. 18:13:28 Stevejust deleted a bunch of tags? 18:14:34 s/a bunch/every/g 18:16:58 :/ 18:21:15 maybe he just deleted the obsolete release-* tags? 18:23:56 yeah, we seem to have both 0.x.y and release-0.x.y 18:24:49 ??zot trap[2] 18:24:49 zot trap[2/3]: Monsters can invoke the powers of these traps against you by stepping on them. Beware the Zot Dance! 18:25:07 which monsters? only intelligent ones? 18:27:33 all of them 18:27:48 even if confused? 18:27:58 ayep 18:28:02 oh, only hostiles 18:28:19 only if you're near them 18:29:37 doy: that it? the trap must be in your LOS? 18:29:41 that is* 18:29:49 not sure of the range 18:29:58 this is silly, most monsters have no ties to Zot, and some are adventurers like you 18:30:43 hehe found a katana 18:39:26 -!- permagreen has joined ##crawl-dev 18:40:47 -!- Nexos has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 18:42:16 -!- karmatic has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:46:00 does anyone here use windows console? 18:46:22 #1038 looks like something we should fix for 0.6 18:47:57 Warning: Crawl encountered errors during startup: 18:47:57 Cannot find file "travel_stoppers.txt". (~/.crawlrc:204) 18:48:32 so it forces everyone to edit their config 18:49:32 probably should just leave a stub file there for a while at least 18:49:49 or maybe one with something like ": crawl.mpr('remove this from your config!')" 18:50:20 that's not that much better than the error :) 18:50:36 really, I don't care; if you think something needs to be done, go ahead 18:50:38 well, can make it not look like an error at least 18:50:39 (: 18:55:54 oh, that was probably my fault 18:55:57 the tags thing 18:55:58 (: 18:56:18 i noticed that push --tags was doing more than i expected, but then didn't think any more about it 18:56:25 (when i was pushing the 0.6.0-rc1 tag) 19:03:44 -!- by has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 19:08:29 -!- eith has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:27:31 -!- permagreen has quit [Quit: Welcome to the real world] 19:30:43 -!- murphy_slaw has joined ##crawl-dev 19:30:44 -!- murphy_slaw has quit [Client Quit] 19:33:21 -!- murphy_slaw has joined ##crawl-dev 19:33:54 03kilobyte * rf1c78b1edc12 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/lua/runrest.lua: Lua uses -- not # for comments. 19:33:56 03kilobyte * rdaf62737cb12 10/crawl-ref/source/effects.cc: Significantly improve non-god weapon acquirement. 19:33:58 03kilobyte * rd1e13ffe7154 10/crawl-ref/source/effects.cc: Improve non-god armour acquirement. 19:35:49 * sorear cries quietly over the slow death of the "god gifts are just acquirements" rule 19:37:23 * doy doesn't cry at all 19:37:31 that rule is boring 19:38:35 hey does anyone know exactly how Crawl's item rarity system works? Our system is dumb. 19:42:41 -!- murphy_slaw has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:43:20 Our system is actually much dumber 19:43:46 -!- murphy_slaw has joined ##crawl-dev 19:43:54 You can look at makeitem.cc if you want; basically it's made of of a confusing tangle of ifs and data dependancies 19:43:54 beh, it's way too good now :( 19:44:11 acquirement? too good? how? 19:44:21 well, I'm not a coder, but I have to redesign our system in a slightly less dumb way 19:44:29 with axes 27 shields 0, I get 8 execs, 3 battleaxes, 3 broads and 6 non-axes. 19:44:38 If someone could just give me like a two-sentence rundown on how it works 19:44:42 that sounds about right to me :/ 19:44:50 keithburgun: Badly. 19:45:14 Well, I like the way Crawl produces items, perhaps at very high levels of play you experience problems, but our system is really broken right now. 19:45:23 how so? 19:45:31 Axes 27 is not the common case for acquirement 19:45:34 our current system *works*, but it's hell and a half to adjust 19:46:01 use angband's "system"! 19:46:02 I recommend you go with something simpler, like the Angband or ADOM systems 19:46:09 Well the way we're doing it is that we basically roll a d100, and if it's between 1 and 40 drop a Rarity 1 item, if its between 40 and 60 drop a Rarity 2, if it's between 60 and 70 drop 3, etc... then each item has a Rarity number from 1-5 19:46:17 sorear: ^5 19:46:37 less Axes would just give more non-axes and slightly more one-handers 19:46:49 with same ratio of exec:battle 19:47:07 acquirement should give lots of axes 19:47:12 of execs, I mean 19:48:07 keithburgun: The NetHack approach (simplified) - every item has a generation weight from 200 to 1, and items are generated weighted-randomly from the sets 19:48:45 keithburgun: the ADOM approach - same as simplified NetHack, but items additionally have a linearized minimum depth number; generation weight is treated as 0 if level < min 19:48:51 you get 1-3 scrolls of acquirement per game, if weapon acq is too good no one would acquire jewels :p 19:49:20 kilobyte: you acquire jewels if you're hurting for resists, you SHOULD acquire weapons if you're hurting for dmg 19:50:22 the Angband approach - every item has a set of control points which are interpolated into a linear spline defining generation weights for the item at each of the 128 dungeon levels. Sometimes, randomly, the generation level of an item is increased for special rare stuff. 19:51:12 Crawl: There's a giant inscrutable tangle of code. Generation rarities are not data-driven *at all*. 19:51:39 item = WPN_HAND_AXE; if (one_chance_in(3)) { item = WPN_WAR_AXE; } ... stuff like this 19:51:54 occassionally there will be a check for you.absdepth in addition to the randoms 19:58:06 -!- murphy_slaw has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:00:27 -!- Iainuki_ has joined ##crawl-dev 20:01:29 -!- murphy_slaw has joined ##crawl-dev 20:03:59 I like the angband system 20:05:51 it has its advantages 20:06:44 ? 20:07:19 Iainuki_: flexibility, mainly 20:08:03 Which system are we discussing, I mean? 20:08:46 Item generation. 20:11:45 the adom approach is used by nethak for some things 20:11:55 gems, for instance 20:12:02 monsters 20:12:49 What's the ADOM approach? 20:13:26 constant item distribution with fixed weights, except that some items have minimum depths 20:13:43 nethack is without that last part for the most part 20:13:48 except it does that with gems 20:20:47 -!- ortoslon has joined ##crawl-dev 20:29:46 -!- murphy_slaw has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:31:20 -!- murphy_slaw has joined ##crawl-dev 20:34:21 -!- Mu_ has quit [Quit: Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place.] 21:28:00 -!- Twinge has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:58:10 -!- Iainuki_ has quit [Quit: Iainuki_] 22:03:38 heh 22:03:41 Have you guys seen this? 22:03:42 http://www.devmag.org.za/articles/342-WHAT-I-LEARNED-FROM-DUNGEON-CRAWL/ 22:03:56 I've been emailing this guy, he is the one who made Desktop Dungeons 22:08:14 yeah, dpeg has been emailing him too 22:08:42 oh, neat 22:09:09 I agree with pretty much everything in his article :P the design philosophy page really drew me into Crawl as well 22:10:53 we all got a good laugh out of the definition of Stone Soup on page 2 22:16:37 Wow this whole thing with restoring defender_starting_attitude and not really accounting for ENCH_CHARM in fight.cc is really gross 22:17:11 -!- timecircuits has joined ##crawl-dev 22:47:42 03pointless_ * r25d77ffbc1ef 10/crawl-ref/source/ (beam.cc mon-abil.cc mon-stuff.cc mon-stuff.h): Partially address enslaved spores producing friendly ballistos 23:05:32 -!- pointless_ has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.8/20100202165920]] 23:10:23 -!- felirx_ has joined ##crawl-dev 23:11:06 -!- felirx has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:41:02 Kind of funny 23:41:49 after how Crawl trained me to be hyper-critical of how every nuance of a game worked, I went and beat every challenge in DD in less than 24 hours real time 23:42:18 I'm still on the leaderboard with a few Vampire abuses 23:47:23 24 hours you say? maybe the unlock thing isn't that bad after all... 23:47:49 Yeah I had every race and class open the day after I downloaded the game 23:47:49 ? 23:48:05 but 23:48:09 I've also beaten Crawl ;o 23:48:50 I still hold that to be a much greater accomplishment 23:49:13 His game is a puzzle game and there isn't much that can stop you from winning once you figure out the logic 23:49:32 but there's another thing in DD: predictability and therefore arithmetic. i'm a math major, needless to say, i hate doing maths 23:49:44 hehe 23:49:49 But it is such easy math! 23:50:12 I dunno, I couldn't put the game down until I had beaten everything 23:50:31 Most fun: Factory as a Wizard if you can do that yet 23:50:56 i haven't played it after i recorded the video because i'm still pissy about unlocks 23:51:13 video? oh was that you? 23:51:24 ayep 23:52:03 I've only managed to win with one race/class combination in DD. Frustrating. 23:52:33 The trick is, kill the highest level monster you possibly can without spending more than 1 potion 23:52:40 try to horde them for the boss 23:53:11 ortolson I'm the guy who got him to make a wiki XD 23:53:20 we linked your vid 23:53:26 in the "new player guide" 23:54:24 well, it was me who linked it anonymously :) 23:54:28 anyways.. is there another channel on Freenode we could talk about this in? I don't want to incur the wrath of devs :) 23:54:54 ##crawl-offtopic