00:02:13 -!- karmatic has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:13:00 -!- karmatic has joined ##crawl-dev 00:25:53 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 00:26:06 are these formulas (listed at the top) the ones presently being used in the new AC/EV/SH system: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:misc:ac&s[]=ac&s[]=nerf 00:55:24 -!- by has joined ##crawl-dev 00:55:34 hello 00:55:49 hey 00:55:51 whats up? 00:56:40 how's your port going? 00:57:19 I think I'm done moving all the platform specific code into wrappers. 00:57:27 Except calls to freetype. 00:57:41 because it seems like freetype2's lib even builds on the iphone, so i'm going to wait on that. 00:58:25 by: In fact, I think I just realized that im done. If you'd like to build it 00:58:36 http://github.com/ixtli/crawl/tree/ipad 00:59:15 build ipad branch with the following: make TILES=y SDL=y GL=y 00:59:22 The game should be exactly the same as master :) 01:00:28 -!- Vandal has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:04:54 !tell Enne I think I'm done wrapping lib-dependent calls (except FreeType2). Checkout the ipad branch (http://github.com/ixtli/crawl/tree/ipad) and `make TILES=y SDL=y GL=y` and the game should run exactly as master. The files I've created are 'cgcontext-sdl' 'glwrapper' and 'uiwrapper-sdl'. 01:04:54 ixtli: OK, I'll let Enne know. 01:06:02 !tell Enne I'm going to work on glwrapper today to reduce the amount of one-to-one wrapper functions, like right now I have a call that simply calls loadIdentity() which is bad for portability. 01:06:02 ixtli: OK, I'll let Enne know. 01:12:29 -!- eith has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:16:14 ixtli: got it to compile and it seems to work, great! 01:16:20 :D 01:16:21 Yay! 01:16:22 I needed http://sprunge.us/MOaZ 01:16:35 ok yes 01:16:35 not sure that's the right thing to do however 01:16:40 i forgot to mention that 01:16:51 since i started developing this source i've had problems with include paths 01:17:16 I've talked to neunon a lot, but it seems like it's a combination of some weirdness in the source and the fact that I have local installs of SDL and SDL_image on my machine 01:17:22 the contrib SDL_image at least install SDL_image.h into contrib/install/include/SDL 01:17:59 The way neunon has it set up you should be looking for /local/ versions of the SDL header files 01:18:25 because we have the SDL submodules pulling with git to build static libs specificially for crawl 01:18:56 it's just that I've had some difficulty with search paths so I may have accidentally committed < >'s instead of " "'s 01:19:44 by: I am applying your patch locally. 01:23:22 it works here fine, comitting 01:24:07 Cryp71c: I think so. GDR is NewR; DrP's NewRRR proposal was after the implementation. 01:25:05 by: Patched. 01:25:09 by: Thanks :D 01:27:15 by: If you look at glwrapper.cc you'll see functions like clearBuffers setProjectionMode, etc.. that I'm going to remove today because one-to-one wrapper functions will make it harder for me to port 01:31:57 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:36:34 Hi. 01:37:41 hey due :D 01:38:04 Hi ixtli. 01:38:15 Hail, due. 01:45:14 -!- B0RG1N has joined ##crawl-dev 01:45:53 -!- B0RG1N has quit [Client Quit] 01:45:58 03by * r2742e51a2e8f 10/crawl-ref/source/beam.cc: Fix LOS checks for blocking messages. 01:47:38 Gentlemen! How goes the development? 01:50:31 Oh, that reminds me 01:52:49 due / sorear: Holy Word is ready if you're up for checking and committing. http://www.it-is-law.com/dump/DCSS/0012-Make-Holy-Word-useful-more-damage-paralysis-hits-evil.patch I 01:53:07 I'm not completely happy with the new message for reading, but I couldn't think of anything better 01:55:32 Hm. 01:55:43 Related to this, chances of non-priest orcs worshipping Beogh reduced. 01:55:50 That is a significant change, do you realise the implications of it? 01:56:34 I may now - what are you thinking of? 01:56:39 *not 01:56:49 Any player follower of Beogh will find it extremely difficult to get followers. 01:56:55 Unbelievers will not convert. 01:57:02 Let me double check... 01:57:12 Ohhh. Hmm. 01:57:46 Maybe not, I'm not sure, but I'm sure there's a mention about it. 01:57:53 I admit I didn't check that out as throughly as I should've. Any Priest group will still all be followers though. 01:58:04 I'll poke a little bit too, let's see... 01:58:36 Looks like it's just a piety check against race. 01:58:39 Well, genus. 01:58:52 So atheist hill orcs will still convert if you're the Messiah! Carry on. 01:59:35 Was the Kiku altar message occurring while out of LOS filed on Mantis? 01:59:41 Or did syllogism just mention it here 01:59:49 sounds reasonable, I mean...you are the messiah...that kinda puts a crimp in athiesm :P 01:59:49 03due * r9e478eca0e07 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/variable/altar.des: Make Kiku vault only generate "rises from the dead" message in LOS. 02:00:37 Ah, there it is. 02:07:20 Twinge: this is horribly overpowered; haste, one ?holy word, and a mediocre stabber can take out the entire cerebov vault 02:08:48 ??holy word 02:08:48 scroll of holy word[1/1]: kick unholy ass, by doing damage and short paralysis to all such folks in LOS (I think). If you are unholy yourself, it'll hit you for half your hp. 02:09:31 isn't that punishment for being unholy instead of the normal effect? or was that changed? 02:13:47 by: Yeah, so sorear and syllogism both wanted it to be MORE powerful :P Keep in mind the paralysis does not last long for high HD mobs, and Holy Word is quite rare. 02:14:31 Twinge: I tested it in wizard mode; even one-turn guaranteed paralysis against demon lords is too strong 02:14:41 Right now it is borderline completely worthless at 16 average damage and ~1 turn fake paralysis 02:14:53 so up the damage but cut the paralysis 02:15:27 it's quite strong enough if reading one scroll lets you take out some of the 1s on screen 02:16:16 Well, I was originally going to have the chance of paralysis based on HD, but then I saw how quickly higher HD monsters recovered from the paralysis anyway so it seemed unnecessary considering you'll get like 4 during a game 02:17:46 on a short blade 15 character, unhasted, I got 3 or 5 attacks against cerebov 02:18:20 that's easily enough to kill him with a bit of stabbing skill 02:18:43 Something with more than your speed can recover fast enough to fire back instantly too. Hmm, that many? right, attacks being faster than movement. Hmm. 02:19:08 what has more than your speed when you're hasted? 02:19:28 Executioners :P But not too much else 02:19:56 I don't suppose paralysis has any sort of severity option I missed, like poison? 02:21:16 I think your patch is fine if you just remove the paralysis effect; I don't much care for the god aspect but whatever 02:22:10 it does meaningful damage if you're up against one or more 1s and Ls, or can be used to wipe the screen of neqoxecs 02:22:15 No paralysis at all I don't like. It's most of what makes the item interesting in the first place. Having it non-guaranteed is fine though. 02:48:26 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 02:49:36 !tell dpeg Yes, we (UP) can do the starting menus. 02:49:36 Keskitalo: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 02:49:37 Keskitalo: OK, I'll let dpeg know. 02:50:50 Man...You guys did a good thing with Xom. Nothing better than an insane god to add variety to a game. 02:51:06 <3 Xom 02:51:29 Cryp71c: I think so. GDR is NewR; DrP's NewRRR proposal was after the implementation. 02:51:46 Twinge, wha? 02:51:46 lol 02:51:47 Only Xom summons a Spatial Vortex on D:1 for me. 02:52:12 Just one of those moments... 02:52:42 23:26] are these formulas (listed at the top) the ones presently being used in the new AC/EV/SH system: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:misc:ac&s[]=ac&s[]=nerf 02:52:43 ^ 02:53:05 ah, gotcha, thanks. 02:53:26 Madtrixr, if Xom is doing anything of any significance on D:1, you're there wayyyy too long 02:53:40 Especially if its negative 02:55:01 Yeah...Figures. 02:55:19 I like to explore all of a dungeon level, so that makes sense. 02:55:40 Madtrixr, well, I'm talking about...idk, a few thousand turns, which is about 3x as long as it would take to expore the level 02:55:43 That shouldn't be enough to make him bored generally, unless you're something really weak 02:55:44 unless you're kiting monsters endlessly 02:55:53 And have to rest constantly 02:55:56 Meh, I don't know. 02:56:03 Did it say he was bored? 02:56:11 Maybe I was just unlucky. 02:56:18 no... 02:56:28 Possible. Guess you were just his special plaything or something :) 02:56:56 * Madtrixr should have a special title: "Madtrixr the Hapless. 02:56:58 He no longer abysses or demon-swarms you so badly at low levels unless he's bored, at least. 02:57:32 O_o that's good. 02:57:52 Yeah, and even when he's bored, he doesn't do it terribly often. 02:57:59 But its still pretty powerful when he does :( 02:59:08 I did have one game where Xom truely hated me, for no reason :( 02:59:16 I was amazed I survived as long as I did 03:00:14 Heh. 03:00:47 One of the only nice things he did for me was give me some teleport scrolls - handy for escaping the swarm of high-level demons he spawned around me when I was like level *5*. He tormeneted me every couple hundred turns, and drained me probably 3 or 4 times. Eventually he tormeneted me and followed it up with another huge demon swarm while I was trying to heal back up; teleport didn't kick in in time... 03:01:13 Wow. 03:01:23 Unfortunately, Xom still isn't right 03:01:32 'Nothing' is actually listed as a XOM_GOOD_ACT 03:01:53 so...~14% of the time (at full piety / average or above interest) he's performing 'Good' acts that are doing nothing. 03:02:34 yay, short sword of speed on D:2 shop 03:03:49 Oh, Xom needs more work, certainly. I'd like to see his average towards being nice be slightly higher, and further reduction of the most repetitive/common things (like stat drain, torment, etc.) but he's always progressing towards being more awesome :) 03:04:13 Okay...He just laughed Maniacally...This can't be good. 03:04:41 -!- Xardas-3 has joined ##crawl-dev 03:05:00 Hum, how do I have mpr() print out an integer? :P 03:06:57 I tried mpr(integer.c_str()); and that didn't work either... 03:07:28 Twinge, mprf 03:11:47 or msg::stream << integer << endl; if you want the totally type agnostic version 03:15:46 I couldn't get mprf to work either :/ sorear's plain version says endl isn't defined, and without it it'll compile but not show anything, heh. Bleh. 03:18:11 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:18:50 I'm just trying to print monster->hit_dice to the screen since my if check on it isn't working :P 03:19:27 look at some dprf uses? 03:20:48 std::endl 03:25:25 dprf worked. Not at all used to this awkward ("%d", data-I-actually-want-to-go-there) set up 03:28:18 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 03:28:20 -!- syllogism- has joined ##crawl-dev 03:28:25 -!- syllogism- has quit [Client Quit] 03:28:27 I'm used to being able to do it all in-line. Pretty sure that's how it's been for every other language I've ever used, hehe 03:30:02 Anyway, "if (!(random2(monster->hit_dice) - 9))" seems to be evaluating as if it were only "if (!random2(monster->hit_dice))" . What's the error there? 03:38:18 Oh, -1 is true, isn't it. 03:49:43 Getting caught up in all these fancy Not checks, forgetting basic greater/less than checks ;O 03:55:24 Keskitalo: I dropped you an email about WizLabs, don't know if you have any time to comment. 04:00:05 Alright, how about: HD20 = 50% of holy word paralyzing, HD27 = 37%, HD15 = 67%, HD10 = 100% 04:01:06 -!- karmatic has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:04:36 Also -- touching back on the new random monster delay thing, are they supposed to be able to move next to you and get attacks in when you climb stairs and nothing is next to you at the time? That seems kind of awful 04:18:06 -!- Henzell has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:20:54 -!- Henzell has joined ##crawl-dev 04:22:10 <3 BasicBot 04:42:46 <3 greensnark. 04:43:16 greensnark: What sort of changes would gretell/henzell need to prioritise lplace over place if lplace!=place? 04:44:21 Easy enough for announcements 04:44:39 Storing lplace in addition to place needs a db change though 04:44:48 Which is less trivial 04:45:00 Anyway: go ahead and make the change and the bots can be fixed afterwards 04:46:30 Alright, let's try this then: http://www.it-is-law.com/dump/DCSS/0012-Make-Holy-Word-useful-more-damage-paralysis-hits-evil.patch 05:41:45 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 05:56:16 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 05:56:23 Tol Cormpt Norz Norz Norz 05:56:23 dpeg: You have 5 messages. Use !messages to read them. 05:58:41 !seen Keskitalo 05:58:41 I last saw Keskitalo at Sat Mar 6 08:49:36 2010 UTC (3h 9m 5s ago) saying !tell dpeg Yes, we (UP) can do the starting menus. on ##crawl-dev. 05:58:51 Keskitalo: you around? 06:06:29 -!- Vandal has joined ##crawl-dev 06:08:56 !messages 06:08:56 (1/5) Cryp71c said (2d 13h 2m 34s ago): if we can reach a concensus on a difinitive, unopposed list of mutations that are good to be implemented, I'll be happy to build a master "approved" list and any progress currently being made by anyone interested in programming each of the mutations at the top of the DS wiki. 06:09:10 !messages 06:09:10 (1/4) Cryp71c said (2d 12h 56m 55s ago): oh, and also..if any such mutations are already present on the DS wiki, feel free to mark them (somehow) and I'll begin the list later tonight or tomorrow. 06:09:15 !messages 06:09:15 (1/3) due said (2d 5h 29m 53s ago): I tweaked your Divinations post and am using it for this play-testing. I intendn to write something about portal vaults over the weekend. 06:09:47 !tell Cryp71c All of this sounds good. (Sorry for the late reply, I had Henzell on /ignore.) 06:09:47 dpeg: OK, I'll let Cryp71c know. 06:09:51 !messages 06:09:51 (1/2) due said (8h 58m 29s ago): Email sent, included Eino and Neil also. 06:10:59 !messages 06:10:59 (1/1) Keskitalo said (3h 21m 23s ago): Yes, we (UP) can do the starting menus. 06:14:07 Hi dpeg. 06:14:12 Hi! 06:21:35 -!- timecircuits has joined ##crawl-dev 06:32:58 moin! 06:33:16 So... what hostname to I set for my new desktop... trog? :D 06:37:26 * Madtrixr ayes for Trog 06:37:34 -!- Xardas-3 has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.0.17/2010021501]] 06:37:43 I would love to use Yredelemnul 06:37:56 but.. don't know how to pronounce his name properly :D 06:38:03 What's it's name now? 06:38:20 err...the current desktop? 06:38:21 went for trog indeed ;) 06:38:31 oh.. the old one was called bastard 06:38:34 because it had windows 06:38:42 O_o Choose Trog or Xom. 06:38:42 but this one will be "clean" ;)) 06:42:08 Ye-red-uh-lehm-null. 06:43:06 When I read that, I saw Ye-red-bull-ehm-null 06:43:11 somethings wrong with me. 06:44:37 hehe 06:46:25 -!- ortoslon has joined ##crawl-dev 06:46:55 puzzle roguelike inspired by crawl http://forums.tidemedia.co.za/nag/showthread.php?t=13014 06:47:03 read his post, it's hilarious 06:47:43 I can't get it to run :( 06:48:28 he released a new version just today, have you tried it 06:49:31 Well...How Ironic...Crawl is no longer a full timesink (Sprint) But having a game designed around quickness is a good idea...like a certain doom-themed RL I know of... 06:51:12 * due beats Madtrixr with a stick. 06:51:21 Yes, we know. 06:51:29 ortoslon: It doen't run under wine, I can't be arsed to run it in a VM. 06:53:03 Ow! 06:53:07 I didn't say it! 06:53:36 doomrl sessions are about an hour long 06:54:51 Which is *JUST* perfect for me, but some people want REALLY quick. Which I understand. 06:55:59 The only sad thing is that strategy generally needs space and time to unfold. 06:58:18 we should link to all those games :D 06:58:33 the one Eino pasted yesterday too :) 07:00:29 what have eino pasted 07:01:02 http://forums.tidemedia.co.za/nag/showthread.php?t=13014 07:01:15 oh, sorry, no, this one: 07:01:20 http://vacuumflowers.com/temp/tiny_crawl_assemblee 07:01:56 one thing i don't like in doomrl is how playmodes have to be unlocked. desktop dungeons is even worse, gold carries over between games :( 07:02:26 is doomrl still closed source? 07:02:44 Napkin: Yeah. 07:03:00 pity - then that's still the worst, ortoslon ;) 07:03:43 due - Eifeltrampel got it running in Wine immediately 07:04:00 want more info (version, etc)? 07:04:22 Napkin: what's still the worst? 07:04:51 being closed source 07:04:57 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 07:05:16 that doesn't affect my play experience 07:05:18 Napkin: Yes please. 07:05:46 not yet, ortoslon 07:06:09 but sooner or later 07:08:02 it never will, i don't edit the game's source when i'm playing it 07:08:47 yeah.. but why invest time into something that will probably be lost in space and become unsupported and not evolve anymore at all? 07:08:58 i don't invest time 07:08:59 I don't see much fun in that 07:09:00 i waste it 07:09:16 just look at Adom.. 07:09:29 if you don't care - fine with me 07:09:32 :) 07:09:51 i treat my time as garbage :) 07:12:36 night all 07:12:58 g'night Textmode 07:13:13 I like to combine this wasting of time with doing something useful ;) 07:13:45 -!- Textmode has quit [Quit: Over the ages, man has been certain of a great many things. some of these things were even true.] 07:14:12 geil :D 07:14:20 oops, wrong window ;) 07:14:24 pfff 07:14:32 due: He's using wine-1.1.40 07:14:55 debian-based os - i believe some ubuntu at the moment 07:15:00 hey david :) 07:15:32 my wasting is useful (i record videos of games that i like and provide feedback) but i don't think of that as an investment 07:25:58 Might have to upgrade. 07:28:31 Goodnight folk. 07:28:37 nights! 07:28:38 G'night due! 07:28:55 dpeg: I think we're on track for WizLab loot balance, but I'd like your opinion before I do anything major. 07:29:07 Otherwise I just need to tweak tiles and colouring and descriptions and I think I've hit all my 0.6 targets. 07:29:15 Except Louise, who still has generic speech. Maybe tomorrow... 07:29:58 due i replied to your email about wizlab loot 07:31:12 I found Tukima's wizlab 07:31:16 Mu_: Yes, thank you so much, I forwarded it to David, but I agree with everything you said 07:31:18 But I had to run for the exit soon after :P 07:31:25 greensnark: Wuss. 07:31:32 Those great mace dancing weapons were impossible to kill :P 07:31:40 And I had to use up a full wand of healing just getting away :P 07:31:43 "A great mace doesn't even have a blade!" 07:32:02 <3 Donald. 07:32:07 Okay, actually sleeping now. 07:32:13 Donald said I wasn't even a real necromancer :'( 07:32:28 He also said something about me dropping out of necromancy school :'( 07:32:35 And he killed one of my MuPr too :P 07:32:40 !lg . killer=Donald 07:32:41 1. greensnark the Archer (L14 DEHu), worshipper of Elyvilon, slain by Donald (a +5,+3 demon blade of pain) on Snake:1 on 2010-02-19, with 51303 points after 44410 turns and 4:34:11. 07:32:41 greensnark: did you kill for all of that? 07:32:45 Oh, DEHu 07:33:05 *him 07:33:08 Yeah, I had to smack him down for talking about necromancy school 07:33:18 Nobody talks about necromancy school to my MuPr and lives. 07:36:44 @??dancing weapon ; great mace 07:36:44 unknown monster: "dancing weapon great mace" 07:36:47 Blah 07:55:16 somebody on SA mentioned getting two lernaean hydras at once 07:56:07 -!- jld has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:56:29 Napkin: damn you! tiny crawl has distracted me from hacking REAL crawl 07:57:40 hehehe - nice, isn't it? :D 07:57:43 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 07:57:48 hey, moin greensnark :) 07:57:56 -!- jld has joined ##crawl-dev 07:58:50 -!- TGW has joined ##crawl-dev 08:00:53 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 08:02:27 with all those flash games and spelunkylikes roguelikes are entering mainstream 08:02:48 Nabend Napkin :) 08:03:09 :D 08:03:15 Napkin: Very good. Is it in dev? 08:03:20 oh wait, there are roguelikes on ds 08:09:20 chei wrath should cripple your metabolism 08:10:01 Napkin: holy christ http://vacuumflowers.com/ld14/ld14.html 08:14:15 -!- scarf has joined ##crawl-dev 08:16:48 hihi 08:18:46 someone on SA claims he encountered two lernaean hydras at once 08:21:15 ixtli: i'm gonna make a video of it, thanks for linking 08:21:30 syllogism: Doesn't sound very likely :P 08:21:42 ortoslon: How come? 08:22:06 greensnark: buggy vault maybe? :P 08:22:13 While hydras have no trouble counting up to 27, most humans get problems in the single digit range already. 08:22:52 hydras should have more deaths the deeper you go 08:23:12 ixtli: because i like to make videos of games that i like so that people could watch my video and play the game if it looks like they could enjoy it too 08:23:17 "You see a hydra with five deaths." 08:23:20 ortoslon: :D 08:23:21 err heads :P 08:23:24 "You wonder if you'll be one of them." 08:25:04 ortoslon: where are the videos? 08:25:42 http://www.youtube.com/user/ortoslon 08:25:43 "Nikola your spectral human" 08:25:54 he's probably not the best ally to have around 08:25:56 all indie games, mostly freeware 08:27:01 oh he doesn't keep b.lightning 08:27:06 weird 08:27:43 err he doesnt have it anymore 08:30:40 how do I turn off wizard mode if I've build source with target debug? 08:31:48 you dont 08:32:08 as far as I know 08:32:09 is there a way I can disable all the debug messages? 08:34:09 there's probably some way to set them to muted in the config 08:46:24 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 08:46:58 -!- Enne has joined ##crawl-dev 08:49:41 omg, tiny crawl is awesome :D 08:49:43 Hi Enne! 08:49:45 Hi Enne :) 08:49:50 Hi hi. :) 08:49:50 Enne: You have 6 messages. Use !messages to read them. 08:49:51 Napkin: what is tinycrawl? 08:49:58 !messages 08:49:58 (1/6) due said (2d 8h 54m 20s ago): Will check it out, thanks; looks much cleaner than my implementation. Poor Tukima's cramped apartment! 08:50:04 !messages 08:50:05 (1/5) ixtli said (2d 8h 30m 17s ago): No worries. I'll probably be around less than I'm not this weekend as my school friends are in town, but please let me know if there are any problems. Specifically it might be annoying to select only the uiwrapper, because im not 100% done with the glwrapper. 08:50:36 Eino posted it yesterday: http://vacuumflowers.com/temp/tiny_crawl_assemblee 08:50:37 (Is there a way to just get all the messages at once?) 08:50:53 Enne! You're here! 08:51:13 dpeg: It's awesome. 08:51:20 dpeg: We should build it in some how XD 08:51:20 Hey, ixtli. :) 08:51:36 ixtli: I cannot even read the webpage (no flash here :) 08:52:05 dpeg: Damn. When you get flash you should try it out. It's a flash b/w dungeon crawler. 08:52:26 Enne: I'm just about done. If you have to some time, give it a look over. 08:52:45 dpeg: http://forums.tigsource.com/index.php?topic=9827.0 has screenshots. 08:52:47 ixtli: I can try from work. Is there some learndb entry with the link? 08:53:17 Uuh. Not sure. I don't think so. 08:53:37 ixtli: looks very retro, I like it. 08:55:18 ixtli: I'll try to do that later today. Are you up to date with master? 08:55:34 as of like.. a few hours ago, yeah :) 08:56:36 Ok, just checking. I'd touched a number of places with SDL calls that I'm sure you had also touched. That's why I ask. :) 08:57:56 :D 08:57:58 yeah. 08:58:12 Enne: Also, key repeat is still a bit ... odd in some places. 08:58:33 Like if you hold down [n] when creating a random character. 08:59:01 May or may not be aware, just figured I'd mention :D 08:59:30 ixtli: Does it fit under this? http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=871 09:00:17 Enne: Nope, im on 10.6.x and it's consistent. 09:01:19 Enne: If you enter a character name and hit ! 09:01:22 then hold down n 09:01:39 it used to display the combinations really fast 09:01:46 I think I know where the bug is if you'd like me mess with it. 09:02:03 If you're not already aware, I can try and make a patch. 09:02:08 No, I didn't know about that. 09:02:27 If you want to write a patch, awesome. If no, could you file a bug? 09:02:37 dpeg: < N78291> heavy armour seems pretty useless now 09:02:48 I think he's pretty close to the mark :) 09:03:01 greensnark: Do you agree? 09:03:16 Heavy armour feels like hard work now 09:03:23 Admittedly I was trying it with MuPr, which is less than ideal :) 09:03:29 greensnark: but the change was rather mild... what is it? 09:03:29 I think rob played a heavy armour character a while back 09:03:33 ixtli: It does display combinations really quickly for me. Not sure why it wouldn't for you. 09:03:40 Hmm 09:03:45 Unfortunately I have almost no time right now. 09:03:56 dpeg: Raw AC reduced, GDR reduced, spellcasting penalties increased 09:04:04 We may have to revisit heavy armour and EV pretty soon 09:04:07 At least for 0.6.1 09:04:12 Enne: Odd, let me build master . I was pretty sure this was happening there, too. Though it's probably just something I broke XD 09:04:14 GDR does not matter, at least that's what I have learned from syllogism. 09:04:17 Uncapped EV is ridiculous 09:04:21 greensnark: yes 09:04:33 dpeg: It doesn't matter as much as raw AC getting cut, but the combination is significant, I think 09:05:42 missed the start of discussion, but why don't we just step down EV a bit? say stepdown_value(20, 20, 60, 80) 09:06:13 by: what would that produce? 09:06:34 leave EV up to 20 as is, halve part over 20, over 40, over 60, cap at 80 09:06:51 so 30 -> 25 09:06:57 50 -> ? 09:07:07 by: I agree on stepdown 09:07:10 40 -> 30 09:07:24 50 -> 35 ? 09:07:44 40 -> 30, 60 -> 40, 100 -> 50 09:08:07 dpeg: not quite sure, too tired to think :) 09:08:14 why would you need a ca 09:08:15 p 09:08:29 TGW: doesn't matter, really 09:08:31 I wonder if we couldn't have gotten the AC nerf not just by a similar stepdown then? 09:09:22 dpeg: yes, 50 -> 35 09:09:27 sigh 09:09:30 I think the heavy armour changes to spellcasting were useful 09:10:17 I think heavy armour nerf may be fine; someone should play a MDFi of Oka 09:10:34 by: n78291 did 09:10:36 I played a heavy armour MD caster and that was ok 09:10:49 Ok, maybe it wasn't Okie 09:10:53 It was 09:10:59 well, as long as it's not Trog 09:11:13 He said heavy armour was pretty useless :) 09:11:23 My MuPr heavy armour attempts also kinda sucked :) 09:11:43 It's far less effective than dodging :) 09:12:00 well, MuPr is expected to be hard, right? 09:12:12 Yes, but once I gave up heavy armour the difference was marked 09:12:23 It was a whole lot easier in light armour 09:12:34 perhaps we should strengthen the role of GDR? 09:12:53 greensnark: what kind of EV do you have? 09:12:56 I think upping AC number based on armour skill may help more 09:12:59 by: 23 EV :P 09:13:15 The secondary factor is that light armour makes it a lot easier to do spells 09:13:19 that's probably a value you could have had with 0.5, right? 09:13:25 Yes 09:15:10 Once I'm done with this MuPr I will try some MDFi :) 09:15:38 mdfi with +7 gda and +2 in the other slots has 37 AC at 15 armour skill 09:15:52 -!- pointless_ has joined ##crawl-dev 09:16:34 39 AC with +7 dwarven plate instead 09:18:07 wasn'T 40 AC considered to be very good, close to broken? 09:18:31 anyone know where GDR is defined off-hand? 09:18:51 fight.cc 09:19:26 dpeg: 40 AC is rather good, yes 09:29:22 Ghosts with haste + orb of destruction are hilarious 09:29:41 Monster OOD cast should really check for safe distance from last orb 09:36:45 level 21 and doing shoals already?? 09:38:26 syllogism: Finished it long ago :P 09:38:27 you can oneshot kraken with refrigeration, that's pretty sad 09:38:35 !lm . rune=barnacled 09:38:37 4. [2010-02-27] greensnark the Slicer (L14 MuPr) found a barnacled rune of Zot on turn 44303. (Shoals:5) 09:38:42 It was rather easy :P 09:38:46 oh right 09:38:50 Went in at XL 13 and never had to back off 09:42:21 Miasma emanates from the human's flesh. x2 09:42:22 twice? 09:42:32 It keeps on emanating 09:42:38 oh ok 09:42:49 Just kidding, don't know why it shows twice 09:42:54 greensnark: lol. 09:43:00 greensnark: It should say that in place of x2 09:43:02 no, your explanation is fine 09:43:02 greensnark: use enslave soul on some nice elf 09:43:06 they keep their spells 09:43:07 It keeps ... on ... emanating. 09:43:40 I miss my spectral Norris 09:44:47 "too badly injured" makes no sense 09:45:14 it should be "too injured"? 09:45:34 well that too but it makes no sense not to allow using enslave soul on monsters that don't have enough health 09:45:57 -!- ortoslon has left ##crawl-dev 09:46:03 it should be difficult to kill the monster in time, so you don't bring it down close to death before using the ability 09:46:07 or is the duration short and thus the point is you've to kill them quick 09:46:12 right 09:46:54 greensnark: i think at low invo you often get abominations 09:46:58 instead of spectral things 09:47:06 abominations dont keep their spells and stats (?) 09:48:08 greensnark: that's a pretty aggressive strategy :P 09:48:13 that MDFi I had before has 18% GDR in gold dragon armour, 16% in dwarven plate (armour skill 15); 25%/23% at armour skill 27 09:48:20 syllogism: Typo :P 09:48:57 Enne: Just pulled and built and key repeat when holding down [n] still functions strangely. 09:49:25 ixtli: Ack. If you think you know how to fix it, please do. It'll be tough for me if I can't reproduce it. 09:49:37 sounds good :) 09:49:44 11% (armour 27) or 8% (armour 15) in dwarven scail 09:49:49 s/scail/scale/ 09:49:52 Enne: Strange that it doesn't happen for you... 09:54:23 Altar join religion prompt drawn on top of description (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1018) by Core Xii 09:54:44 if armour turns out to be too weak, I'd suggest upping GDR a bit I think 09:54:55 03by * r4e1461b3e7b1 10/crawl-ref/source/ (terrain.cc terrain.h): New function terrain.cc:feat_is_floor. 09:54:59 03by * rc70f327f2dda 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-place.cc: monster_can_submerge: rename grid->feat. 09:55:01 03by * r875706de0ed5 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-place.cc: monster_can_submerge: Only submerge in floor. 09:55:02 03by * rdbca46d41e35 10/crawl-ref/source/ (player.cc player.h): Add const variant of player::slot_item. 09:55:04 03by * rd52b46dcb906 10/crawl-ref/source/ (fight.cc player.cc player.h): Make GDR calculation a member of player. 09:55:05 03by * r6d0a798ee147 10/crawl-ref/source/output.cc: Print GDR in HUD in wizard mode. 09:55:13 03by * rf735e2c19de6 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-place.cc: monster_can_submerge: check for habitability. 10:18:17 -!- Enne has quit [Quit: Enne] 10:21:04 -!- Xardas-3 has joined ##crawl-dev 10:23:44 is there an option to merge only specific messages? 10:24:05 it would see extensive use by me 10:25:38 -!- Enne has joined ##crawl-dev 10:31:00 03pointless_ * rb89f9b1c78a8 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-act.cc: More robust check for acting monster dying in _monster_move 10:31:30 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:32:30 -!- karmatic has joined ##crawl-dev 10:36:23 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 10:45:09 TGW: there is an option to report inappropriate merges on the wiki 10:46:22 I'd rather make a whilelist than a blacklist 10:48:16 what about a greylist 10:48:26 what shade? 10:48:40 two parts white one part black 10:49:13 -!- purge has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 10:49:13 I'd rather improve the default behaviour than allow configurability; patches welcome of course 10:49:30 -!- raydarken has joined ##crawl-dev 10:51:18 I live on configurability 10:51:20 you should see my rc 11:12:44 early game MDFi is fine 11:27:38 -!- DrPraetorious has joined ##crawl-dev 11:27:49 -!- DrPraetorious has quit [Client Quit] 11:30:39 -!- DrPraetor has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:31:53 -!- karmatic has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:34:43 um ok 11:34:47 there are goto's in crawl 11:34:55 sorear: there are goto's in crawl 11:35:50 and? 11:35:58 Hah. I always found the hate of Goto overblown; sometimes it's still useful. I haven't seen it in Crawl code, though, so I don't know how much sense it makes 11:36:34 Twinge: It's ... 11:36:35 look 11:36:44 I can forward you /the/ paper on it. 11:36:53 how old is that paper, again? 11:37:04 Younger than the goto statement. 11:37:16 obviously 11:37:24 you have to have a goto statement before you can consider it harmful 11:37:37 Wat? 11:37:54 Using goto is poor style. 11:38:00 At very least. 11:38:24 At very most it convolutes loop debugging, which makes the program hard to debug. 11:38:39 that sentence is a bit redundant, but you know what I mean. 11:39:43 As I said, situational at best. Then again, I've mostly done little small projects (I can be redundant too :) where it's still easy to tell what's going on even if there were some gotos involved. In a bigger project I may not be able to justify their use at all. 11:39:53 even the linux kernel has goto's, linus actually thinks they can result in more readable code 11:39:53 goto is a useful language feature 11:40:06 any language feature is bad when misused 11:40:19 If it's reasonably short, I'll read 'the paper' if you link it, though I'm heading out for the day right now. 11:40:33 there's a nice rule of thumb that says gotos jumping backwards are nearly always a mistake, (in C or C++) gotos jumping forwards are sometimes correct 11:40:51 http://kerneltrap.org/node/553 11:41:08 (since we're all appealing to higher authorities... ;P) 11:42:08 Twinge: http://userweb.cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/ewd02xx/EWD215.PDF its about three pages. 11:42:11 Formatted as a letter. 11:42:26 Zaba: Not that fallacious IMO - it's not like its a legal or moral issue; referencing people experienced in the issue seems fine. 11:43:18 Alrighty, I'll look at it when I get back. 11:43:29 Most Crawl use of goto is crappy old code 11:44:08 hmm, is it a fair guess to say that although the use of goto is sometimes correct, the uses in Crawl are all likely to be wrong? 11:44:26 Zaba: Ugh. 11:44:26 not really 11:44:34 scarf: Yes 11:44:38 I hate looking at Linus talking on mailing lists. 11:45:01 He does an OK job of explaining himself sometimes, but his critiques of others assertions, especially those respected in the field always comes down to: 11:45:16 Linus always expresses himself strongly 11:45:21 [...] Niklaus Wirth [...] doesn't have a frigging clue. 11:45:38 I don't care how he does it, it's just that there's no factual support. 11:46:10 I dunno. I've just never been presented with a situation where it's more readable to use goto statements. 11:46:38 "more readable" <-- subjective 11:46:50 There are good cases where one might be worried about stack size or crazy nesting issues, as mentioned by linus in the post, but otherwise why not just use a function? 11:47:05 Or a control statement like break or continue. 11:47:24 Some languages frown on break and continue :) 11:47:34 They're pretty goto-like, after all 11:47:37 Just goto in disguise 11:47:39 :P 11:47:53 at least lua has break 11:47:55 This is largely a matter of taste, so don't sweat it, move on with life 11:48:00 xD 11:48:08 I dunno, I dislike having to read gotos 11:48:13 and i'm having to read them now ;-) 11:48:28 Well, if you submit cleanup patches I'm sure they'll be applied! 11:48:35 Personally I don't think this code is well structured, is all that my original point was :) 11:48:38 But that's better than discussing the merits of goto :) 11:48:57 /siiiiigh/ I guess your right XD 12:01:31 -!- Enne has quit [Quit: Enne] 12:02:00 -!- Enne has joined ##crawl-dev 12:07:12 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:12:57 -!- Siber has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:15:45 -!- GrimmSweeper has joined ##crawl-dev 12:17:56 -!- GrimmSleeper has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:17:56 -!- GrimmSweeper is now known as GrimmSleeper 12:19:31 -!- Xardas-3 has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.0.17/2010021501]] 12:22:09 I have here a randart axe with +Lev; wasn't dpeg saying that was gone? 12:29:00 So no one else is experiencing key-repeat problems? 12:29:56 tiles, just holding down an arrow key, for instance? 12:30:36 few people here play tiles I think 12:35:21 -!- karmatic has joined ##crawl-dev 12:36:55 really 12:37:20 Enne, Keskitalo are the ones I know of 12:37:37 (among devs) 12:37:45 np 12:37:47 ortoslon? 12:38:11 ixtli: is it reproducible? I could try here 12:38:30 open up a current master build 12:38:39 and start playing without touching the mouse 12:38:47 try holding a direction key 12:38:53 and see what happens 12:47:53 ixtli: I think I see it; with first mouse move, it's fixed forever? 12:47:58 ixtli: is this on mantis? 12:51:13 -!- GrimmSweeper has joined ##crawl-dev 12:53:40 -!- GrimmSleeper has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:53:40 -!- GrimmSweeper is now known as GrimmSleeper 12:56:09 by: no 12:56:12 enne isnt experiencing it 12:56:15 which is weird 12:56:22 by: But thanks for letting me know. 12:56:24 Yes, I've reported it in Mantis.. 12:56:30 I'll try tracking it down 12:56:41 http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1003 12:57:21 Got it from the second usability testing team. 12:58:38 by: Ill try, too. 12:58:45 I'm pretty sure I know where it is 12:58:56 Enne: http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1003 apparently 12:59:14 Ill try tomorrow morning, 4a 12:59:16 Gotta sleep xD 12:59:18 night night 12:59:39 ixtli: Good night! :) 12:59:42 Ah, I didn't see that one. I could only remember 871. 12:59:47 Night, ixtli. 13:00:06 felirx might clean up the gotos from the starting menu/combo choices menu. :> 13:00:51 Enne: i pushed another small update to my ipad branch, fyi. Just more modularizing. 13:01:23 ixtli: Just from the IRC, the progress sounds great, making Crawl more portable. :) Thanks! 13:01:25 ixtli: Thanks. I'll let you know when I get a chance to look at it more closely. :) 13:04:54 by: Thanks! 13:22:07 Well, the use of sland as an indentifier, and the "very obviously camp" means of implying homosexality 13:22:12 at a time when it was still illegal 13:22:22 But I'm not aware of how that maps to the US 13:23:25 hrm, mis chan 13:23:28 (obviuosly) 13:23:57 -!- karmatic has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 13:32:17 Hrmh.. seeing "chaotic" while targeting leaks info on shapeshifters. 13:39:48 -!- karmatic has joined ##crawl-dev 13:41:41 Need to find out how the game keeps track of known shapeshifters. 13:44:11 MF_KNOWN_MIMIC apparently.. 13:53:34 Looks like I got my fix to compile. Just need to wait for the rest of the compile. :) 13:56:44 The vaults level generation overhaul is going to be good. It's so anticlimatic to go through all the boxes/rooms/houses in the city plan levels, and there'll be nothing in them. 14:03:52 03Keskitalo * r78e88a94fbc0 10/crawl-ref/source/directn.cc: Fix unknown shapeshifters leaking their chaoticness in targeting. 14:05:30 -!- TGW has left ##crawl-dev 14:09:11 Keskitalo: So is it chaoticness or chaoticity! 14:09:42 So shapeshifters just run around oozing chaos while targeting, do they 14:13:14 First time I hear of this "chaotic city", that sounds like a great idea for a portal vault! 14:13:45 We need pools of bottomless chaos 14:13:45 -!- TGW has joined ##crawl-dev 14:13:55 I mean bottomless pools of chaos 14:14:04 the chaos can be bottomless too 14:14:20 Bottomless pools of bottomless chaos 14:14:43 if you only had finite chaos in a bottomless pool it would be spread too thin 14:15:16 Someone should do a wumpus portal vault 14:15:22 -!- Twinge has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:15:25 With bottomless pits 14:15:31 That land you in China 14:19:13 03by * r061ce144084b 10/crawl-ref/source/tilesdl.h: Make two zero cursor_loc instances equal. 14:19:41 90 minutes, one line of code 14:19:56 -one 14:20:18 by: Nice work on all the bugfixes and code cleanup <3 14:20:28 thanks 14:20:40 Ack. Thanks, by. :) 14:32:24 -!- karmatic has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 14:37:54 so, at XL 12, AC 19, SH 23, that troll was problematic even with might 14:40:30 next one wasn't even without might 14:45:39 magic mapping / feature list reveal that detected portal is shop (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1019) by rob 14:58:22 Might be best to take off the shield in the name of metrics :) 14:58:37 greensnark: I tried, but entering lair without was too scary 14:59:17 I nearly died a couple of times anyway: one-on-one v. black snake cost me only ?blink, v. death yak heal wounds and speed 15:03:34 playing one of the challenge combos i see 15:05:47 syllogism: yes! it's great fun 15:07:35 orc warrior just lost me for a turn while walking around corners, with 2 stealth skill 15:07:49 back 15:08:16 * greensnark hands dpeg the Ceremonial Cat of Celebration. 15:10:22 by: yes, Lev should be gone, I thought. Gotta ask sorear. 15:13:28 -!- ortoslon has joined ##crawl-dev 15:13:33 http://www.devmag.org.za/articles/342-WHAT-I-LEARNED-FROM-DUNGEON-CRAWL/ 15:13:48 by the author of desktop dungeons 15:16:10 I like how Stone Soup is described as "a visual, tile-based version of Crawl". 15:16:13 * Enne grins. 15:16:22 -!- tinymouse has joined ##crawl-dev 15:16:29 heh 15:16:41 i'm working on a sprint map. but no_trap_gen seems to be ignored 15:17:57 why haven't i seen it before http://crawl.chaosforge.org/images/d/d2/Crawl-flowchart.jpg 15:19:06 ?? how to win 15:19:06 how to win[1/2]: http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/7421/dcflowchart.png made by MrPeeps. 15:19:12 cute but okawaru is weak 15:19:17 ??how to win[2] 15:19:17 how to win[2/2]: Alternately, learn when to run away, then make a habit of actually using all your panic items. But really, you're better off with the chart. 15:22:54 If you call Okie weak, you must be a fan of Nemelex :P 15:23:02 Like some people here whom I shall not name 15:23:15 Beyond noting that they go by the nick "syllogism" 15:24:47 ortoslon: hey, I absolutely love that article. <3 <3 <3 But I guess that's no surprise, eh? :) 15:25:05 so if i have git branch set to master am i getting 0.7 at this point? 15:25:13 yup 15:25:29 dpeg: They really like the philosophy :) 15:25:54 dpeg: more love for SS http://www.auntiepixelante.com/?p=389 15:26:00 well i just searched the source tree for "no_trap_gen" and the string is not found 15:26:24 am i missing something 15:26:25 greensnark: hey, I like it too. The philosophy is the holy grail for me :) 15:26:39 Was no_trap_gen ever implemented? 15:26:51 I think I should get in touch with the DD guy. 15:27:01 definintely 15:27:03 it's mentioned in sprint.des 15:27:13 but it doesn't seem to work in my own sprint map 15:27:21 ortoslon: thanks. Reading this makes one feel better! :) 15:27:47 dpeg: plz make him unlock all playmodes at the start and make gold not carry over sessions kthx 15:28:15 i'll probably send him a love/hate mail too 15:29:49 -!- timecircuits has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:29:52 ortoslon: I have never played his game. Heck, I don't play games :) 15:30:08 ah 15:30:50 I feel that Auntie is missing a point: how DCSS *removed* content. I am quite proud of this. And the DD article missed how there are long streaks despite the harsh difficulty- 15:30:51 i play far too much indie games, not only roguelikes 15:31:00 I play Go :) 15:31:21 i prefer backgammon 15:31:27 that's also a good one 15:31:34 greensnark: I died; shifters aren't broken :) 15:31:39 do spears still stab? 15:31:44 but I doubt it's as heavy on strategy as Go 15:32:10 luck heavily shifts it towards tactics 15:32:17 ortoslon: I don't think so. 15:32:35 by: Yes, I closed the bug after I ran into a sphinx that changed into a quicksilver dragon :P 15:32:42 My favourite strategy (computer) game is Spaceward Ho! 15:33:13 dpeg: i'd play bg with you on play65 but the client is windows-only 15:33:38 auntie clearly hasn't played sprint :) 15:33:38 ortoslon: strategy needs space and time, speaking in general terms 15:33:50 sprint = cruel and not fair 15:34:05 at least sprint 1 map. i'm hoping to make a better one 15:34:06 Go has 19x19 intersections and about 250 moves in a game. 15:34:21 is there a stable version with sprint? 15:34:32 Sprint 1 is at least an amazing proof of concept. Needless to say, it can easily be won =) 15:34:33 it's stable enough. haven't found any bugs 15:34:43 surely you mean can't 15:34:55 how do you list the Sprint winners? 15:35:09 !lg * win place=~Sprint 15:35:10 !lg sprint ktyp=winning s=name 15:35:15 there are 15 winners so far. thousands of deaths 15:35:15 No games for sprint (ktyp=winning). 15:35:16 15. Grimm the Backstabber (L12 SpEn), worshipper of Makhleb, escaped with the Orb!. on 2010-03-06, with 269800 points after 3350 turns and 0:36:13. 15:35:17 !lg * win place=~Sprint s=name 15:35:18 15 games for * (win place=~Sprint): 2x qwqw, 2x dpeg, 2x syllogism, 2x VicViper, 1x 78291, 1x tinymouse, 1x Pseudonut, 1x pointless, 1x Grimm, 1x heteroy, 1x ruthinator 15:35:34 tinymouse: :) 15:35:38 dpeg: You need to cement your lead 15:35:40 top score :) 15:35:55 dpeg: Lay claim to the undisputed top spot 15:35:58 greensnark: I have SpAs^O and TrHu^T, I am happy with that. 15:36:26 And both were absolutely non-cheating wins. 15:36:40 surely you can't cheat on the server 15:36:49 tinymouse: you can abuse TSO piety. 15:37:03 haven't used that god before 15:37:26 devs can cheat on the server 15:37:33 tinymouse: Sprint has accelerated piety gains, so with the good gods, you can just wait until ******. Of course, only lamers would do that :P 15:37:48 you mean piety increases over time? 15:37:49 napkin permitted access to saves 15:37:56 tinymouse: yes 15:40:47 ugh, configuring feature colours allows distinguishing between magic mapped shop/labyrinth entrance/hell portal/... 15:40:56 deeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeepeg! 15:41:32 I th 15:41:38 oops 15:41:56 How deep is the peg 15:42:10 i just downloaded build 605 and no_trap_gen seems to be fixed 15:42:14 bottomless 15:42:38 elly: yes, at your service? 15:42:49 greensnark: the egg is very deep 15:42:53 -!- dpeg is now known as deepegg 15:43:15 by: yes, that's long known. 15:43:18 Good egg 15:43:19 the passive piety gain stops at 150, I think 15:43:33 greensnark explicitly saud we should not care, but I am not so sure anymore. 15:43:42 Hm? 15:43:49 syllogism: ah, half an excuse :) 15:43:52 greensnark: re by 15:43:56 deepegg: no idea :P 15:43:58 Oh, feature overrides 15:45:07 Disallowing feature override colours for magic mapped areas sounds ok 15:45:33 Although you'd have to block glyph overrides as well 15:45:42 I would prefer to write a different magic-mapped feature to map_knowledge 15:45:53 Yes, that would work better 15:46:01 of course, that will break tiles 15:46:07 "dngn_door_thingy" 15:46:21 I mean portal thingy 15:46:33 -!- tinymouse has quit [] 15:47:01 You'd also need an equivalent for stairs 15:47:19 Or not 15:47:28 I'm not really worried about magic mapping, yeah :) 16:04:56 !learn add bad_ideas make monsters respect item inscriptions 16:04:56 bad ideas[1492/1492]: make monsters respect item inscriptions 16:06:40 hmm, tiles already sort of deals with this in tileidx_unseen it seems 16:09:35 by: Only sort of? 16:11:46 Enne: probably completely :) 16:12:01 !learn add bad_ideas overinscribed items break 16:12:01 bad ideas[1493/1493]: overinscribed items break 16:13:12 ortoslon: do you know the email address of the DD developer? 16:15:44 rodain.joubert@devmag.org.za 16:16:18 i wonder if it's possible to modify some crawl tiles for DD 16:17:17 thanks 16:17:48 !learn add bad_ideas let giant eyeballs read player's scrolls 16:17:48 bad ideas[1494/1494]: let giant eyeballs read player's scrolls 16:22:03 Morning. 16:22:57 evening 16:23:00 !ctcp due time 16:23:09 whoops, asked the wrong program 16:23:16 8:23am :) 16:23:34 and I have CTCP ignores on aftersomeone started CTCP flooding ##crawl a few weeks back. 16:24:38 ah, fair enough; I think Freenode fixed that, but I'm not sure 16:25:07 so you're at UTC+10, which implies probably Australia 16:25:18 although there are a few other countries in that timezone too 16:26:18 also, due = Bookofjude? the world gets smaller every day 16:28:17 due: Hallo! 16:28:26 03j-p-e-g * r15c5def69bf5 10/crawl-ref/source/tutorial.cc: Mention Ctrl-O in the tutorial message for loading a saved game. 16:28:27 03j-p-e-g * rb1131a32a9b5 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-abil.cc: When killing a "fungal colony", clear the entire level of mold traces. 16:28:28 03j-p-e-g * r6facc4189c8e 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/descript/monsters.txt: Tweak snake descriptions, remove inappropriate colours. 16:28:30 03j-p-e-g * r4d2f11be0735 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/descript/monsters.txt: Reorder monster descriptions, uniques first, both sections by alphabet. 16:32:07 -!- scarf has quit [] 16:32:38 -!- ais523 has joined ##crawl-dev 16:43:57 03by * r4c70bc29f047 10/crawl-ref/source/ (feature.cc feature.h view.cc): Map features to base types based on dchar for magic mapping. 16:45:51 hrm, that's broken actually 16:49:25 ais523: I thought th edue = bookofjude thing was obvious? 16:49:39 due: it's obvious if you /whois, but I'd never done that before 16:49:40 03by * r567cde7d3ea7 10/crawl-ref/source/feature.cc: Handle missed feature DCHARs. 16:49:43 ais523: Ahhhh. 16:50:41 (Why a small world?) 16:51:53 due: becaues it seems everyone you meet, you indirectly know already 16:51:56 *because 16:52:20 Oh, cool. where do you know me from? 16:52:21 such as dtsund from the gamespite LPs (Crawl/NetHack/Angband) recognising me when I posted to the NetHack one 16:52:27 due: Wikipedia, indirectly 16:52:33 I used to be an admin there 16:53:00 Ahahahaha, Ickipedia :) 16:53:07 * due is a reformed Wikipedian. 16:53:16 I sort-of disagree with the direction it's gone in 16:53:21 but this is getting offtopic, anyway 16:53:39 Yeah. 16:53:59 (I look at it every couple of months and just laufgh for an hour, and then cry a little bit inside.) 16:54:21 if I'm ever tempted, I look at [[WP:N]] being tagged "policy" not "essay", that's enough for me 16:58:06 Yiuf is turning into a new killer-early-game-unique. 16:58:10 * due so happy. 17:00:48 just sent a really long mail to Joubert 17:00:55 Joubert? 17:01:01 Send really long mail to me! ;) 17:01:11 due: yiuf is seriously easy 17:01:19 I'm not kidding either 17:01:20 http://www.devmag.org.za/articles/342-WHAT-I-LEARNED-FROM-DUNGEON-CRAWL/ 17:01:31 due: the guy behind this ^ 17:01:32 TGW: Exactly! 17:01:36 TGW: Which is why it's hilarious. 17:02:00 Yiuf is the most easy unique of all, because you always choose when to face him. 17:02:14 That's a rather easy choice, but players.... :) 17:02:20 And 204 people have died to him :) 17:02:31 Not quite the most for the new uniques in 0.6, but hey, enough. 17:02:32 I am probably among them :) 17:02:56 !deathsby deepegg 17:02:56 No games for deepegg. 17:03:10 It seems like you don't even play crawl mr. deepegg... 17:03:13 deepegg: I seem to remember him escaping his cottage before now 17:03:14 The deep egg does not play. 17:03:17 although, I might be mislead 17:03:31 !lg * killer=yiuf s=name 17:03:31 No games for * (killer=yiuf). 17:03:36 !lg * killer=~yiuf s=name 17:03:42 pointless_: I am happy with ruining Crawl, by virtue of crappy god proposals. 17:03:55 205 games for * (killer=~yiuf): 10x Eifeltrampel, 9x murphyslaw, 7x ajhager, 7x TGW, 5x clouded, 5x Thndr, 4x firem0nkey, 4x KiloByte, 4x Xiberia, 4x mars, 4x Zicher, 4x DashNine, 4x yobbo, 4x heteroy, 4x Kyrris, 4x quru, 4x Vandal, 4x polystyrus, 3x casmith789, 3x Lemuel, 3x FilthyApe, 3x Arcturus, 3x Ahrin, 3x MarvinPA, 3x Temoid, 2x saren, 2x trucutru, 2x Omniguy, 2x Napkin, 2x Maniacuz, 2x has... 17:04:09 !lm * uniq=~yiuf 17:04:34 -!- by has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:04:37 got to ruin crawl somehow 17:04:49 can I make more Yiuf cottages? 17:05:06 pointless_: and stealing from it. Species first, spell schools now, branches later! 17:05:13 TGW: yes, of course! 17:05:19 will they be used? 17:05:24 TGW: possibly. 17:05:27 :P 17:05:30 well, if they're good, sure 17:06:00 * ais523 laughs at http://crawl.chaosforge.org/images/d/d2/Crawl-flowchart.jpg 17:06:06 next step is to program that into a bot, and see if it actually works 17:06:20 1236. [2010-03-06] Ramus the Insei (L4 SETm) killed Crazy Yiuf on turn 2464. (D:3) 17:06:50 also, why does yiuf have a hammer? 17:07:00 well, we broken quite a few of steps of the chart 17:07:24 TGW: I thought you know :) 17:07:30 hmm? 17:07:36 the egg is too deep 17:07:40 why there's this hammer 17:07:50 no, why/ 17:07:52 but I guess that's mythos building: Yiuf has a hammer! 17:09:45 The hammer is essential. 17:10:02 for what? 17:10:12 if you don't tell me I'm not adding the hammer 17:10:47 it's probably a reference to some flavour or other 17:11:29 kilobyte: why a hammer? 17:11:38 due: why not? 17:11:42 I seem to vaguely remember a nursery-rhymish thing involving someone in a cottage with a hammer 17:11:44 exactly. 17:11:47 but maybe that's Crawl that did it for me 17:12:17 I had no specific reason for adding the hammer. But I did. Sue me. 17:12:19 someone wanted submissions of characters from all sorts of disparate settings for a one-off special roleplaying game, recently 17:12:21 so I submitted a Lugonite 17:12:24 Not even a rhyme or something. 17:12:40 actually, I submitted an abandoned Lugonite 17:12:53 someone who's so deep into the whole betrayal and corruption thing that she even abandoned Lugonu herself 17:12:55 TGW: If you don't add a hammer, I will. 17:13:02 I will too! 17:13:07 two hammers? 17:13:16 One will suffice. 17:13:21 Zero hammers is out of the question. 17:13:29 what happens if I make two hammers/ 17:13:34 could we have an anvil too? 17:13:38 no 17:13:47 It is not clear why Yiuf has the hammer. 17:13:59 He could be collecting hammers! 17:14:05 He uses it to repair his cottage! 17:14:08 I have said this before. 17:14:09 xom should drop anvils on creatures for comical effect 17:14:10 you could go all NetHack and add an anvil and a set of recipes for crafting your own weapon from ore found around the dungeon and various other implausible items 17:14:20 NetHack doesn't actually do that, but it's the sort of thing it would do 17:14:21 ais523: but we are all Crawl 17:14:22 maybe I should make one with no hammer and a broken cottage 17:14:27 All those noisy adventurers breaking down walls and shit, he needs stuff to fix! 17:14:33 that's more DF than NetHack 17:14:39 maybe I should make one with no hammer and maurice lurking around 17:14:49 Adeon: well, DF would have it as a main design goal 17:14:57 then you have to give Maurice a hammer 17:15:02 whereas NetHack would have it as an implausible sideplot that doesn't actually do anything 17:15:02 TGW: that would break the unique placement systme. 17:15:11 ok, it'll have a jelly around 17:15:13 ergo: give Yiuf his hammer 17:15:28 TGW: heh, put the hammer right next to a jelly so that the player can't tell he has one? 17:15:51 hmm... what about putting an Ely altar there, and Ely blows up the hammer as it comes into view? 17:15:57 :P 17:16:03 ais523: Overdone, unfortnuately. 17:16:09 due: I know 17:16:13 due: hey :[ 17:16:41 I'm just trying to think of implausible ways of not giving Yiuf a usable hammer 17:16:47 But what if you put some glass walls around the ely altar and the hammer 17:17:07 ok... you go there, and find a dead Yuif, and a Tukima's Dancing hammer that killed him 17:17:16 what if the hammer comes from a trog altar 17:17:30 in a glass wall 17:17:55 We need quests: "Collect ten hammers and give them to Yiuf." If you do this, he gets sane again and you get xp. 17:18:09 why would ten hammers make yiuf sane 17:18:18 he gets sane, but continues to kill you 17:18:23 A trove portal wanted 10 heal wounds potions, I laughed and laughed 17:18:25 He is clearly insane because of lack of hammers. 17:18:32 pointless_: why? 17:18:34 anyway, what gets me about Yuif is... why the quarterstaff? 17:18:44 no way I would ever have that many stockpiled 17:18:44 *Yiuf 17:18:46 10 !hw is a shitload 17:18:56 or if I did, no way I'd give them to a trove 17:18:58 pointless_: you can start collecting them. 17:19:04 ais523: he thinks it cross-trains with his hammer 17:19:11 pointless_: hehe, I think it's a fair choice. 17:19:38 You could get the jewellery trove with a pile of ranndarts. 17:19:45 or with a wand of healing 17:19:54 it's like Sigmund with a scythe. In the sources, he always used a sword. 17:20:07 i thought he used a spear 17:20:09 doy: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 17:20:09 I'm beginning to wonder if optimal Crawl strategy just involves ignoring portal vaults 17:20:17 kilobyte: because the sources say he was a noble. Whereas we now he was a peasant. 17:20:21 -!- ortoslon has left ##crawl-dev 17:20:27 ais523: probably not sewers 17:20:27 ais523: answer is no. 17:20:28 I mean, what am I supposed to do with fifty axes of returning anyway? 17:20:36 though you could make a case for ossuaries 17:20:40 !messages 17:20:41 (1/1) due said (20h 18m 50s ago): 51b577e fixes the mislead "shot by a kobold" that should've been a centaur warrior. 17:20:50 baileys, there are a lot you can just duck out of and not be much worse off 17:21:01 TGW: I always do ossuaries as a Makhlebite (demon, demon, demon, wait what ossuary) 17:21:09 I made a comment on the portal vaults wiki page. Bazaars, labs, troves are fine. 17:21:13 I haven't encountered them under a different god yet, that's the way the RNG works 17:21:25 but some of them are overlooted 17:21:33 yes 17:22:16 (to be fair I think the XL 7 koas killing three orc knights was worthy of three scrolls of acquirement, but otherwise) 17:22:37 You cannot get three scrolls of acquirement :) 17:22:44 I did 17:22:48 but thanks for your confidence 17:22:48 TGW: it could just as easily be an XL 4 wizard who knows meph 17:22:51 must be some time ago 17:23:03 ais523: not against orc knights 17:23:03 november 17:23:12 ais523: have you seen an orc knight before 17:23:15 TGW: yes 17:23:45 as far as I can tell, the strategy of mephing and running works even better on them, because they do more damage to the surrounding monsters, so long as they happen not to have ranged weapons 17:24:46 xl 4 wizards don't have enough mp to keep multiple knights confused I imagine 17:25:19 under perfect situations, you'd just meph them at range, run (they don't chase, they're confused), go upstairs, heal up, go back downstairs, you can repeat more or less indefinitely 17:25:25 ofc, this is far from perfect circumstances 17:25:33 meph cloud is resistable by hd 17:25:46 so it's not a perfect strategy 17:26:26 OTOH, it's one that a low-level character can try with pretty much no preparation 17:26:29 hmm, enough theory, I'm testing this right now 17:26:43 doy: I also fixed the orc slaynig bug thing, you were right, I hadn't fixed it before. 17:26:49 I'll remember that next time I find upstairs in a portal 17:27:03 TGW: ziggurat! 17:27:15 isn't that downstairs only? 17:27:24 (Oh, I also think that ziggurats are self-balanced.) 17:27:28 true 17:27:29 One-way, at that. 17:27:33 wait, what? "You fail to memorise the spell. Memorise anyway?" 17:27:39 that looks buggy even if it isn't 17:27:50 ais523: that's a wizmode prompt 17:27:53 so it doesn't matter 17:27:55 due: that was the joke 17:28:25 oh, I see 17:28:33 I was using M, so I assumed it was an ingame message 17:29:36 you thought the game let you circumvent mem success? 17:31:39 TGW: I thought it was asking if I wanted to retry 17:32:05 probably confused it with a NetHack message, along the lines of "This spellbook looks hard to read, read it anyway?" 17:32:22 anyway, that's one orc knight down 17:32:37 this is a level 4 wizard, skills adjusted to 5 in Conjurations but no other wizmode changes 17:32:50 except that I filled the exp pool by mistake, but that shouldn't matter 17:32:55 well, it's a level 6 wizard now 17:33:30 I generated three, one was right next to me, the other two were two spaces away, initially all asleep 17:33:35 I moved one square away and they woke up 17:33:44 then, I've just been mephing ever since, and it seems to work 17:34:04 so conclusion from this test: one level 4 wizard knowing Mephitic can easily beat three orc knights, even though it takes a while 17:34:17 03dolorous * r4f439c7e9e57 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/descript/monsters.txt: Fix typo. 17:34:36 are you dancing at all? 17:34:51 TGW: I'm mephing, then running, repeatdly 17:34:58 I eventually died to a giant cockroach 17:34:58 ais523: there's little room in the bailey maps 17:35:00 baileys are finite 17:35:09 TGW: running round in circles 17:35:20 sort-of, large-scale pillar dancing 17:35:30 doing it in a bailey is a lot more impressive, I agree 17:35:32 no large-scale pillars in baileys 17:35:38 also they have reaching in the baileys 17:35:38 except that at least one bailey design has orcs right next to water 17:36:01 TGW: reaching's to my advantage; it means they stop one square short and so it's easier to meph them 17:36:13 anyway, monsters vulnerable to meph /next to deep water/ = dead monsters 17:36:20 no water 17:36:48 TGW: there's a design full of monsters (including orcs, IIRC) across a river 17:36:50 unless that one was removed? 17:37:41 it happens to have no loot 17:38:20 TGW: the exp from an orc knight is a lot of loot 17:38:49 Okay, off to be beaten at scrabble, ciao folk. 17:38:58 bye 17:39:12 doy: I'm planning on doing Louise speech and WizLab loot balannce tonight, can Louise speech go into 0.6 if it's purely a speech change? 17:39:13 australian scrabble is probably harder 17:39:16 fewer z's 17:39:19 If not, I'll leave it until later and do the loot balanze. 17:39:23 due: sure, if you get it done by monday 17:39:30 loot balance is more important though 17:39:40 Yeah 17:39:59 0.6 is on monday? 17:40:04 It's mostly okay at the minute 17:40:11 monday is when the release candidate comes out 17:40:23 when's the release? 17:40:24 after that point, nothing except direct bug fixes 17:40:27 monday after that 17:41:24 doy: there's only realy four maps to balance, and i'm happy with two of them, so looks like everything's on schedule. 17:41:29 okay 17:41:51 03due * rf9ff493d7b80 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/portals/wizlab.des: Remove Borgnjor's Mortuary for 0.6. 17:42:01 And that fixes the only major issue :) 17:42:25 due: should have just given me a patch for that one 17:42:34 (: 17:42:44 Well, not just for 0.6, Mu_ wants to re-do it. 17:42:49 ah, okay 17:43:01 I love the design but I agree with him after playing through it a few times, it just doesn't work the way it's done at the minute. 18:04:10 -!- karmatic has joined ##crawl-dev 18:09:32 how is ijyb pronounced? 18:09:41 like "ijyb" 18:09:50 ok 18:10:22 eye-jib, I think 18:10:27 -!- ais523 has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:18:14 that depends on his nationality! 18:18:18 yes 18:18:26 where is he from? 18:19:08 who knows? 18:32:00 -!- karmatic has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:36:01 03due 07stone_soup-0.6 * rcb203e1d42fd 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/clua/lm_trove.lua: Hopefully finally fix jewellery issues with Troves. 18:36:02 03by 07stone_soup-0.6 * r12316658deea 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-act.cc: Fix thrown weapon inventory handling. 18:36:04 03due 07stone_soup-0.6 * rceda586c07fb 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/clua/lm_trove.lua: Deal properly with ego-less but ego-able items in Troves. 18:36:06 03due 07stone_soup-0.6 * r272825cb9e6e 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/portals/trove.des: Reduce shop item value for Troves. 18:36:09 03due 07stone_soup-0.6 * r5651bc9ccd2d 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/portals/trove.des: Fix jewellery with pluses being picker from shops (Troves). 18:36:10 03j-p-e-g 07stone_soup-0.6 * rb115ffd65dfb 10/crawl-ref/source/tilereg.cc: For consistency, also suppress out of sight mouseover wall descriptions. 18:36:11 03j-p-e-g 07stone_soup-0.6 * r60efbb924f6e 10/crawl-ref/source/food.cc: Implement #370: When eating, don't prompt for dangerous chunk types. 18:36:12 03j-p-e-g 07stone_soup-0.6 * r6212626fa078 10/crawl-ref/source/item_use.cc: Prompt when the player tries to eat a dangerous chunk by mouseclick. 18:36:15 03j-p-e-g 07stone_soup-0.6 * rb4730558eeb5 10/crawl-ref/source/item_use.cc: Use menu colours for prompts for eating dangerous chunks by mouseclick. 18:36:17 03j-p-e-g 07stone_soup-0.6 * r3e2a348a0780 10/crawl-ref/source/ (food.cc item_use.cc): Also use menu_colour_prefix_tags for butchery prompts. 18:36:20 03j-p-e-g 07stone_soup-0.6 * r3c0063cde3d4 10/crawl-ref/source/cio.cc: Also set MOUSE_MORE_MODE in cancelable_get_line(). 18:36:21 03by 07stone_soup-0.6 * r9ac51f4ce7f1 10/crawl-ref/source/beam.cc: Change bolt::special_explosion tracer handling. 18:36:22 03j-p-e-g 07stone_soup-0.6 * r70cc4c01de3f 10/crawl-ref/docs/changelog.txt: Update change log once again. 18:36:24 03by 07stone_soup-0.6 * r813f3a27687f 10/crawl-ref/source/random.cc: Make sure maybe_random2 doesn't return negative values. 18:36:25 03by 07stone_soup-0.6 * r0504b99994c3 10/crawl-ref/source/beam.cc: Add some assertions in beam.cc to catch #1014 earlier. 18:36:27 03by 07stone_soup-0.6 * r19075021ffc8 10/crawl-ref/docs/changelog.txt: changelog: Collect major bug fixes. 18:36:29 03by 07stone_soup-0.6 * r8c0531836331 10/crawl-ref/docs/changelog.txt: changelog: Correct some inaccurate entries. 18:36:31 03by 07stone_soup-0.6 * r7f36e9a9dfb5 10/crawl-ref/docs/changelog.txt: changelog: Add monsters sleeping off-level. 18:36:32 03by 07stone_soup-0.6 * r23009a23c47d 10/crawl-ref/docs/changelog.txt: changelog: Some more corrections and updates. 18:36:34 03kilobyte 07stone_soup-0.6 * rd39e99efc34b 10/crawl-ref/source/fight.cc: Stop Evilyon from blocking attacks of neutral people, it's trivially avoidable 18:36:36 03kilobyte 07stone_soup-0.6 * rd564588627b9 10/crawl-ref/source/makeitem.cc: No cursed randarts of holy wrath, please. [Mantis 948] 18:36:37 03kilobyte 07stone_soup-0.6 * r65190c07f5a8 10/crawl-ref/settings/autopickup_exceptions.txt: Don't autopickup extra rings of TC. 18:36:39 03by 07stone_soup-0.6 * r93217dd2d901 10/crawl-ref/source/ (godgift.cc godgift.h makefile.obj mon-act.cc): Move Jiyva mutation action out of mon-act.cc. 18:36:44 03by 07stone_soup-0.6 * rd0b486ecf686 10/crawl-ref/source/ (godgift.cc godgift.h makefile.obj mon-act.cc religion.cc): Make Jiyva mutations actual god gifts. 18:36:45 03by 07stone_soup-0.6 * recbcd4f79358 10/crawl-ref/source/godprayer.cc: Increase Jiyva piety gain. 18:36:46 03j-p-e-g 07stone_soup-0.6 * r22bfbf289e4c 10/crawl-ref/source/ (enum.h misc.cc mon-act.cc spells4.cc tutorial.cc): Add a tutorial trigger for being silenced. 18:36:47 03j-p-e-g 07stone_soup-0.6 * rc32160f4da1f 10/crawl-ref/source/rltiles/ (4 files in 2 dirs): Use minmay's tiles for viper and anaconda. 18:36:49 03j-p-e-g 07stone_soup-0.6 * r28070a91f0fe 10/crawl-ref/source/rltiles/dc-mon/animals/black_mamba.png: Make the black mamba tile a bit lighter to make it more visible. 18:36:51 03by 07stone_soup-0.6 * r1393d2fcd865 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-movetarget.cc: Fix Jiyva slime targets. 18:36:52 03by 07stone_soup-0.6 * rfcef612d83ff 10/crawl-ref/source/religion.cc: Jiyva gets full piety gain during gift timeout. 18:36:55 03j-p-e-g 07stone_soup-0.6 * r8be8fe3f671c 10/crawl-ref/source/ (cmd-keys.h cmd-name.h enum.h main.cc): Nuke CMD_TOGGLE_SPELL_DISPLAY, made obsolete by the display tabs. 18:36:57 03due 07stone_soup-0.6 * r8b728b6fb5a6 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/portals/wizlab.des: Fix #1014: Lua error on wizlab_demon. 18:36:57 03due 07stone_soup-0.6 * r68f7412063aa 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/portals/trove.des: Fix artefacts in shops using base item instead (Troves, #1016). 18:37:00 03due 07stone_soup-0.6 * r4dbf3e12a7c6 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/portals/wizlab.des: Fix typo in Zonguldrok gravestone (#1009). 18:37:02 03due 07stone_soup-0.6 * r33c58875ad50 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-act.cc: Fix Mislead not reporting correct monsters on ranged deaths (#1012). 18:37:03 03by 07stone_soup-0.6 * r72058a37c908 10/crawl-ref/source/beam.cc: Fix LOS checks for blocking messages. 18:37:05 03due 07stone_soup-0.6 * r088093017dab 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/variable/altar.des: Make Kiku vault only generate "rises from the dead" message in LOS. 18:37:07 03by 07stone_soup-0.6 * rcb49dad951be 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-place.cc: monster_can_submerge: check for habitability. 18:37:08 03by 07stone_soup-0.6 * r817d51d967a1 10/crawl-ref/source/ (terrain.cc terrain.h): New function terrain.cc:feat_is_floor. 18:37:09 03by 07stone_soup-0.6 * re3ac9fae5338 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-place.cc: monster_can_submerge: Only submerge in floor. 18:37:11 03pointless_ 07stone_soup-0.6 * rd14429f1ef59 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-act.cc: More robust check for acting monster dying in _monster_move 18:37:13 03Keskitalo 07stone_soup-0.6 * rcbfa7a21975a 10/crawl-ref/source/directn.cc: Fix unknown shapeshifters leaking their chaoticness in targeting. 18:37:17 03by 07stone_soup-0.6 * r12fa3fb36c9b 10/crawl-ref/source/tilesdl.h: Make two zero cursor_loc instances equal. 18:37:18 03j-p-e-g 07stone_soup-0.6 * rdc25d5375ddd 10/crawl-ref/source/tutorial.cc: Mention Ctrl-O in the tutorial message for loading a saved game. 18:37:19 03j-p-e-g 07stone_soup-0.6 * rb18366078563 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-abil.cc: When killing a "fungal colony", clear the entire level of mold traces. 18:37:21 03j-p-e-g 07stone_soup-0.6 * r5bce9e013a79 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/descript/monsters.txt: Tweak snake descriptions, remove inappropriate colours. 18:37:23 03by 07stone_soup-0.6 * re86b91d7a747 10/crawl-ref/source/ (feature.cc feature.h view.cc): Map features to base types based on dchar for magic mapping. 18:37:25 03by 07stone_soup-0.6 * rfdfd2c745af6 10/crawl-ref/source/feature.cc: Handle missed feature DCHARs. 18:37:27 03dolorous 07stone_soup-0.6 * rfd41d671de62 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/descript/monsters.txt: Fix typo. 18:37:28 03due 07stone_soup-0.6 * r0ac38aeb0865 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/portals/wizlab.des: Remove Borgnjor's Mortuary for 0.6. 18:42:40 Master branch on CDO updated to: 0.6.0-a2-576-g0ac38ae (16.6) 19:05:38 -!- syllogism has quit [] 19:08:33 awesome, people are complaining *to me* that there are gotos in Crawl 19:09:22 I think I have the lowest standards for "acceptable code" of anyone here 19:09:44 sorear: there is only one reply: GOTO Hell 19:09:52 I've been known to multiply pointers by large irrational numbers and make assumptions about the result 19:11:36 sorear: that's the reply *you* should tell those who are complaining to you, in case that was not clear. 19:13:18 -!- Demos has joined ##crawl-dev 19:13:33 hello 19:13:43 hi 19:13:47 -!- deepegg is now known as dpeg 19:13:50 -!- Iainuki_ has joined ##crawl-dev 19:16:42 I have a question about the ziggurat. 19:16:50 Tell us! 19:17:12 Did the older trunk versions have a toll bug? 19:17:51 Don't know; can you explain the bug? 19:18:28 I pay the toll to enter zig (in pan) and my game crashes. 19:18:49 Oh, yes. But that's quite some time ago? 19:19:52 it's not so much a toll bug as an "entering crashes" bug 19:20:08 it's died and risen several times already 19:20:20 if you find it in current trunk, I'm not too suprised, file a bug 19:20:36 at least Crawl handles crashing a lot more gracefully than the competition 19:21:49 Alright. Is there a way to resume my game? 19:23:45 Demos: playing locally? 19:24:31 Yes, playing version 0.6.0-a1-2964 19:25:03 I would make a copy of the whole saves folder and then start deleting level files. There should be a better way. 19:25:59 sorear? 19:33:57 Can't get it to start. Oh well, thanks for the help. 19:34:05 Demos: sorry :( 19:34:22 There should be a way, but I can't help. 19:37:43 I had one more question. Is 111 the maximum limit of runes? 19:38:30 oh :) 19:38:31 it's how much he could carry 19:38:34 you can get more now 19:38:43 yes, it's limited by carrying capacity 19:42:58 -!- eith has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:04:45 -!- purge has joined ##crawl-dev 20:08:54 you could get more even then, but stabwound sacrificed a couple runes for a saner ascent 20:09:47 being a mummy, he was unable to use self-transmigrations to boost his carrying capacity 20:09:58 and he forgot to startscum for a D:1 with escape hatches 20:10:18 nice one :) 20:10:24 plus he decided to bring the Orb - that weighs as much as three runes 20:11:41 I did have a D:1 escape hatch though 20:11:49 I have played a few MdFi of okawaru. I will say the games felt alot more challenging than before ac nerf, especially mid game. But i made it to zot:5 on one of them and died to stupidity 20:11:52 and without the orb it's not a real win :D 20:12:05 I wasn't even planning on doing anything like that anyway 20:12:06 stabwound: you don't need to win to win 20:12:17 !lg * killer=~zot 20:12:18 No games for * (killer=~zot). 20:12:21 I just wanted to screw around with a mummy and setting up a scum bot 20:12:21 purge: what was your AC in Zot? 20:12:26 !lg * kaux~=Zot 20:12:26 Malformed argument: kaux~=Zot 20:12:31 let me check, it was a local game 20:12:33 !lg * kaux=~Zot 20:12:35 it was fairly low 20:12:39 42. casmith789 the Imperceptible (L25 VpSt), worshipper of Okawaru, killed by triggering a the power of Zot trap on Zot:5 on 2010-03-03, with 487593 points after 130102 turns and 9:34:50. 20:12:46 ermph 20:12:52 !lg * kaux=~orb 20:12:53 434. Pacra the Farming Severer (L27 MuHu), worshipper of Lugonu, blasted by a purple draconian (orb of energy) on Zot:5 on 2010-03-06, with 615553 points after 226784 turns and 8:31:18. 20:13:57 dpeg: http://pastebin.com/crLL1hYm 20:13:59 !lg * vmsg=~Orb of Zot 20:14:06 No games for * (vmsg=~Orb of Zot). 20:14:11 !lg * tmsg=~Orb of Zot 20:14:18 !lg * kaux=~Orb of Zot 20:14:23 oh it was shining one not oka 20:14:26 Stabwound: You used shuffle cards to get 72 str right? 20:14:27 1. Mong the Unseen (L25 SpDK), worshipper of Yredelemnul, shot themselves with a Orb of Zot on Zot:5 on 2009-11-20, with 442872 points after 144804 turns and 9:08:24. 20:14:27 1. Mong the Unseen (L25 SpDK), worshipper of Yredelemnul, shot themselves with a Orb of Zot on Zot:5 on 2009-11-20, with 442872 points after 144804 turns and 9:08:24. 20:14:30 thats why my ac probably wasn't awesome sauce 20:14:51 Note: Okawaru does not actually help your AC 20:15:00 gifting armour? 20:15:04 purge: low enchantments, as you went with randarts 20:15:11 gifted armor is worse than real armor, for AC 20:15:14 but yeah 20:15:23 okawaru armor gifts are only worth using for the resists 20:15:37 anyways, point was about playing heavy armour :) 20:15:56 and i made it ok, just a bit more challenging mid/mid-late game than usual 20:16:15 purge: which is what we wanted, I guess 20:16:15 if you find a decent weapon early which i did, you probably don't even need any AC :) 20:16:21 if you had used a set of +2 plain secondaries and a +8 plate mail, your AC would have been 40-50 20:16:49 I didn't think we needed to buff AC right away, but then greensnark also started this :/ 20:17:15 sorear: i didn't have access to alot of resist gear. I didn't do hells/pan/tomb though 20:17:21 so i couldn't pick much 20:17:44 purge: you had *too much* resist gear 20:17:44 needed the gear i took for the resists 20:17:57 ???? 20:17:57 [1/2978]: 20:18:10 if you had prioritized AC over situational useless resists like that +0 rC++ cloak, you might have survived the fire orb 20:18:14 only Armour skill 19, too 20:18:19 what good is rC++ against an orb of fire 20:18:30 what good is +2 more ac? 20:18:31 :| 20:18:32 a +2 elven cloak would have done you some tiny amount of good 20:18:45 more like +3 or +4 more AC 20:18:58 I don't know exactly how it works but post "nerf" armor enchantment matters more 20:19:21 I like how you say nerf :) 20:20:25 purge: 10% more AC, it seems 20:20:30 anyways, the only reason i died is because i tried to fight the one orb in the middle of the room instead of pulling it out 20:20:35 and adds came in the middle of that fight 20:20:39 when i was weak 20:22:36 -!- karmatic has joined ##crawl-dev 20:23:25 and i probably could have summoned a couple divine warriors as well 20:24:09 There have been many complaints that high AC was overpowered, from the midgame onwards, or perhaps even earlier. 20:24:22 If it does not feel like this, it's probably better now. 20:25:32 -!- Demos has left ##crawl-dev 20:26:11 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev 20:27:01 morning all 20:27:13 Hi! 20:27:26 how is everything? 20:27:39 busy 20:28:07 it would be nice if I could open menus while in prompts 20:28:22 particularly discoveries and the overmap 20:29:05 There is this tale of the fisherman and his wife. 20:29:20 TGW is the wife. :) 20:29:32 you should tell me that story sometime 20:30:27 http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/grimm019.html 20:32:04 "ERROR: Dispater already generated somewhere else, please file a bug report" (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1020) by Porkchop 20:32:05 who's the fisherman in this metaphor? 20:32:26 well, the devteam is the fish 20:32:56 is IRC the fisherman? 20:33:00 I can't think of anything else 20:33:01 you are also the fisherman 20:33:01 yes, probably 20:35:13 according to this, the devteam is supposed to appoint me as pope 20:35:17 can you really do that? 20:35:35 actually we will skip some steps and cause you to live in a shack 20:35:41 because we are efficient 20:35:53 you just spoiled it :[ 20:36:06 it's what I do 20:36:10 What's up with this issue: http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=379 is there a problem with just enforcing range 6 for firestorm? 20:36:20 I would prefer the shack to being a pope. 20:36:45 I can't decide whether this story is misogynistic or not 20:37:16 oh, it clearly is 20:37:32 but that doesn't detract from the fact that you're the wife :) 20:39:32 Why should smite targetted spells have range N/A? 20:41:50 -!- Lubaf has joined ##crawl-dev 20:42:34 Anyway. 20:43:13 As a player: I like the "retroactive" skill handling idea the best 20:43:27 -!- Enne has quit [Quit: zzz] 20:44:14 retroactive? 20:45:13 Lubaf: that means the current behaviour? 20:45:48 No, the one that assigns future XP investment as you do things. 20:46:48 Would that be "proactive"? I dunno. 20:47:08 Lubaf: yes, there are plans for that. 20:47:41 Anyway, of the ideas for killing victory dancing, I like the concept that causes the XP to be assigned before you get it the best. 20:48:01 Lubaf: there is a wiki page on the topic :) 20:48:19 You can add it there, ideally with another reason. 20:54:17 -!- tinymouse has joined ##crawl-dev 20:54:52 where in the source code does ijyb potentially get a wand? 20:55:10 tinymouse: on a mission? 20:55:19 :P 20:55:28 but then how will you raise say invocations? victory dance before you go into the next fight? 20:55:31 im making a sprint map. i dont want ijyb to get a wand 20:56:27 monsters get equipment in mon-gear.cc 20:56:30 there is no way around needing to spam some of the gods powers in order to raise invocations 20:56:32 purge: Use a lot of invocations. 20:56:45 for a sprint map, you probably want to tame the randomness a lot, so don't use random geat 20:56:53 instead, say: Ijyb; dagger . robe 20:57:04 that will give him a dagger, a robe, and nothing else 20:57:04 purge: That's a problem with invocations, not with victory dancing or the new system. 20:57:24 purge: Use invocations to kill monsters then. 20:58:30 i looked at mon-gear but did not see where ijyb might get a wand. guess it doesn't matter if i can override his equipment in the des 20:58:35 sorear: not all gods starting powers are offensive 20:58:51 sorear: and not all of them do alot of anything without raising invocations 20:59:00 and yeah it's too random when ijyb gets a wand on sprint 1 it's usually fatal 20:59:04 * Lubaf would make Invocations slightly more passive in gain; say, by being in good with your god, you passively improve your invocations. 20:59:25 Anyway. 20:59:41 lubaf it's sort of like that now with trog abilities 20:59:57 if your piety is low there is not much chance to summon a friendly 21:00:44 I don't think victory dancing can be properly killed, save for actually letting the player assign XP as they wish... 21:01:00 not that I'm suggesting that, just saying. 21:01:38 Textmode: I think your exactly right that it cannot be killed with a crawl type skill based system 21:02:06 tinymouse: trog doesn't use invocations 21:02:12 yeah i know 21:03:09 trog should use invocations 21:03:11 tinymouse: Ijyb gets wands by virtue of being a unique. see _give_wand in mon-gear.cc 21:03:22 I wonder how crawl would play out with a T.O.M.E. style system 21:03:30 ^ random thought 21:03:46 purge: Like T.O.M.E., obviously. 21:03:58 Or rather, fairly close to what TOME plays like. 21:04:00 purge: differently, Crawls skill system is part of its charm... 21:04:21 Lubaf: I don't think so. 21:04:33 tome and crawl are far too different 21:04:38 purge: there is a way around that 21:04:39 sorear: thanks 21:04:41 aye. 21:04:42 purge: I meant in terms of character advancement, not in terms of gameplay. 21:04:51 it would still be crawl, but with tomes skill system. 21:04:58 Textmode: Exactly. 21:05:00 I wonder if I should extend a ##roguelike-cabal invite to DarkGod 21:05:01 tome is still a rather different game. 21:05:17 but still it would be way different because crawl handles skill levels differently and there is a max of 27 levels etc. 21:05:36 I don't mind the 27. It's a running number theme in Crawl, after all. 21:05:38 what if skills exercised and advanced independent of xp gained 21:05:52 Max level of everything besides items is 27. 21:06:01 tinymouse: this is called ADOM, and it leads to other insanity 21:06:11 sorear: Exactly. 21:06:28 tinymouse: for instance, getting a lousy bow and spending hours shooting at high-PV monsters to get your skills up 21:06:43 not familiar with adom. it just seems incongruous that skills only improve after kills 21:06:48 like that guy who got Andy as first kill had to do 21:07:20 I'm partly (but only partly) to blame for that quest, BTW. 21:07:21 some skills improve immediately (e.g. throw flame). others not until exercised again later 21:07:44 Lubaf: uh, which quest? 21:07:49 purge: the problem, ultimately, is the finite Xp points, which means that a finite resource is being allocated by use, which is sound in concept, but causes issues, namely a) that one can "run out", and be unable to learn for a while, and b) that "practice" is useless (which is arguably intentional, but not without its costs), since once you are out of points, theres nothig further to be gained. 21:07:51 I suggested the mechanic, and the skill; Biskup was the one who made it the quest. 21:08:01 Courage, that is. 21:08:05 and practice is the usual way to learn things beyond what you are actually using. 21:08:49 Maybe give the player a pool he can dump how he pleases, but the rest is left as is? 21:08:53 victory dancing is the resultant solution to the second problem, by deliberately causing XP to be redirected to a skill one wishes to develop, but isn't otherwise actively using... 21:08:54 Textmode: Practice = grinding. Studying isn't fun. 21:09:17 sorear: yes, quite true. but its also required. 21:09:28 at least, so far as it seems. 21:09:38 Textmode: xp being finite is the best thing about it 21:09:50 Lubaf: hah. How much else can we blame you for? 21:10:51 Maybe have a Skill Trainer shop, that acts like a Manual, but for all skills. 21:11:04 dpeg: yes, that was the point of the system. but as I'm trying to point out, its not flawless, there is a cost to that implementation, the cost is that you become quite concerned with where those finite points are going, which is where victory dancing comes in, its a way of controling that. 21:11:09 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 21:11:13 butbutmanualsareuseless 21:11:23 sorear: Well, the big ones are, IIRC, Giant Rocks, and I'm not named for the character; the character is named for me. 21:11:29 I think manuals should sage you 21:11:51 Textmode: I believe you are confusing cause and effect. 21:11:52 less exp pool fiddling, see 21:12:01 I mean manuals are not particularly well conceived, you get a limited use item to avoid the tedium of victory dancing 21:12:08 dpeg: howso? 21:12:17 Xp finite == good; allocating xp can be clumsy. We simply have to be more generous with that the latter, not the first. 21:12:18 pointless_: non-dancable manuals are good 21:12:31 what is not dancable? 21:12:47 Stealth. 21:12:51 ranged 21:12:55 Lubaf: I don't beleive Lubaf actually ever went in as an NPC 21:13:01 yeah, anything which can't be victory danced. 21:13:08 -!- Demos has joined ##crawl-dev 21:13:18 stealth is dancable, get xp and stand next to a bunch of low wake chance mobs 21:13:19 dpeg: the point is the victory dancing is the direct result of the players need to allocate finite XP, since theres no "put XP *here*" button, they use the skill until the XP is consumed by it. 21:13:19 sorear, I tend to agree, and I find they're vastly overpriced 21:13:20 Is passive stealth training still in the game at all 21:13:26 I do it all the time, usually with grey rats 21:13:35 pointless_, yeah its still there 21:13:42 pointless_: only for the first level (because otherwise stuff instawakes) 21:13:47 pointless_: only up to skill 2 or so? 21:13:54 ah 21:14:00 might be more than 1 21:14:04 it's not more than 8 21:14:26 so I guess ranged is a good point because you will run out of arrows eventually 21:14:33 Textmode: no, victory dancing is the direct effect of showing a "xp pool" number 21:14:36 You don't have to be within LOS of a monster to train stealth, monsters on the other side of doors and such train up stealth 21:14:51 dpeg, I hope the next argument out of your mouth doesn't include hiding the xp pool 21:15:17 dpeg: down that road lies only madness and pain. 21:15:18 dpeg: that's not true 21:15:27 victory dancing is the direct effect of having an exp pool 21:15:33 haha 21:15:37 dpeg: I understand your point, but many have tried, and discovered nothing good lies there. 21:15:53 -!- Mu_ has quit [Quit: Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place.] 21:15:58 hiding the number won't change anything 21:15:59 I guess I will be driven from ##crawl-dev, too. 21:18:14 -!- elly_ has joined ##crawl-dev 21:18:23 indeed, hiding xp pool is a terrible solution to an annoying problem 21:18:31 I will still know when i kill a tough monster i have xp available even if the pool isn't shown 21:18:46 the number is required, if you attempt to hide it, all you do is force the player to go to painful lengths to figure out what it is... 21:19:06 Folks, I never suggested hiding the xp pool. I proposed to change the mechanic. 21:19:08 yeah, it will just make victory dancing even more tedious since you won't know when to stop 21:19:34 That's a m-f-er to dance. 21:19:34 -!- elly has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:20:07 why not just make skill assignment explicit? and simplify the number of points available. like 1 point for level 1 2 points for level 2 etc. 21:21:24 i suggested hiding the xp pool 21:21:32 dpeg, lol, I gotcha :) Yeah I would agree with a mechanic change. 21:21:36 but only after the changes to the mechanic 21:21:37 hmm, or what about letting people train a skill without explicitely dancing? 21:21:39 * purge points out the true culprit to the mob 21:21:43 doy: see the hilarity that followed :) 21:21:52 i really have no desire 21:21:54 d: 21:21:57 "there he is boys, get em'" 21:22:05 :D 21:22:07 ie, mark a skill as "training" and it will automatically get some exp when you kill something 21:22:12 instant hidden dance 21:22:13 dpeg, I've never been against an explicity skill-point system. 21:22:23 kilobyte: anything explicit like that would not be a step in the right direction 21:22:23 kilobyte, that's how it already works, technically. 21:22:31 on a tangent, exp pool is one place I wouldn't mind adjectives/colours/visual display 21:22:33 (in a small way) 21:22:51 I believe that (a) xp should be spent on what you did in the past, (b) players should have a better grip on allocation (e.g. how much a + on m is worth) 21:23:03 since the exp point is a completely meaningless unit without actually reading the source 21:23:23 skills you want to train often get exercised very rarely 21:23:34 dpeg, with b) are you referring to displaying a value (whether numerical of an adjective) as to how much more xp must be spent before the next level? 21:23:43 dpeg: yes 21:23:46 especially (a) 21:23:49 and "what you did in the past" doesn't really show that you want, say, shields not armour 21:24:01 kilobyte: this is somewhat backward logic - you want to train the skills because they don't train fast enough 21:24:05 on any wizard run where you want to train eg enchanting, you only really cast slow once per mob or haste once per fight, which would be quite a slow train 21:24:07 Cryp71c: no 21:24:10 sorear: agreed 21:24:27 nobody ever victory dances axes, because they train (more than) fast enough to keep the pool empty through killing 21:24:29 if there are issues with skills not training fast enough, we should adjust the training rates directly 21:24:36 yes, skills should train faster 21:24:44 we can allow to make that really fast 21:24:48 I rather like the training rates in Sprint, as a side note. 21:24:59 although we should protect players from themselves 21:24:59 we can keep the +/- stuff on m to allow for tweaks 21:25:02 one thing you always have to be carefult of is characters that are deliberately trying to change their direction, and might want to do so preemptively, in expectation of the furture 21:25:05 doy: yes 21:25:07 but i don't think we need anything more than that 21:25:30 Textmode: then they just start using the new skills 21:25:35 dpeg, as of the LAST time we had an in-depth discussion of "what you did in the past" training, I rather liked the conclusions we reached. 21:25:37 and xp will start going into them, eventually 21:25:41 eg, would-be full-plate mages, who are likely to be spending most of their time *either* casting *or* tanking... 21:25:59 would it work if you cap the amount of exp you promise a skill before training it? 21:26:04 Aside from the fact that it would result in pre-combat dancing. 21:26:04 Textmode: you go into ring mail first, then 21:26:08 Cryp71c: you filed this issue: http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=379 do you remember why someone wanted smite targeted spells to have n/a rane displayed? 21:26:21 doy: thats a restriction, though. perhaps you are comfortable with that, but it removes perfectly viable, and reasonable, options. 21:26:34 Textmode: see what sorear said 21:26:36 so you can cast an enchanment, kill something with multiple trident whacks and neither gets more experience 21:26:43 pointless_: because said person (me) was confused and thought SPFLAG_TARG ignored range 21:26:44 sorear: thats just one example. 21:26:49 pointless_, that was the conclusion that was reached (one day) in IRC on the issue. It was later corrected. 21:26:53 being in plate mail and then deciding "hey, i want to cast some stuff" doesn't really need to be viable 21:27:11 Last I heard, someone was reworking targetting code, so that bug was sort of "hey this might get fixed anyways" 21:27:23 It is our duty to make sure that someone who does not fiddle with m and has a god (normal, not dancing use of Inv) gets enough points into Inv. 21:27:25 Cryp71c: well that's not at all clear from the bug report :P (the it was later corrected part) 21:27:26 doy, agreed, especially with the new AC change. 21:27:35 more generally, its any character which has one skillset, and primarily uses that skillset, but knows that they want to use a different skillset in the future (but have no practical use for it now) 21:27:51 pointless_, the comment I made describes the potential fix after Haran finishes changes to the targetting code. 21:27:53 dpeg: I don't think that's a realistic goal 21:27:57 -!- permagreen has joined ##crawl-dev 21:28:13 picking up a level should be fast, so that players can use the m screen 21:28:23 the reason you allow m-fiddling is because the skill system doesn't solve itself 21:28:25 doy: no, but being fullplate, and deciding you want to cast things, and deliberately taking time out to become a better caster is reasonable. 21:29:06 but certain solutions, such as future-allocation, run the risk of making that painful. 21:29:13 Textmode: right, so you put on some ring mail, and start casting things 21:29:18 and you'll get xp going into spells 21:29:42 TGW: the "system" cannot know whether a character who never fired an arrow but now does it three times wants to become an archer or not. That's what the m screen is for. 21:30:13 dpeg: and it's perfectly possible to worship a god without wanting invocations 21:30:16 you are assuming the conclusion. I'm not going to cast spells in battle, I've only just got my first SC from reading scrolls, that just wastes my time and risks a miscast. 21:30:38 maybe you're switching, maybe you prefer the passive stuff and the gifts 21:30:48 dpeg, has it been considered to use a variable adjustment for the m-screen? Eg, you can set any given skill not only to be on or off, but to either be ---, --, -, (normal), +, ++, or +++ 21:30:51 we're talking about a character that genuinely changing their skillset-direction. 21:31:01 indicating a given "significance" for which it should be trained? 21:31:03 Cryp71c: good idea! 21:31:12 kilobyte: serious? 21:31:12 meh 21:31:14 I don't know what that would solve 21:31:26 that would be SO much fiddling 21:31:26 that sounds like a pretty bad idea 21:31:26 or perhaps simply having + and - stand apart more 21:31:28 or just useless 21:31:36 + and - do stand out, quite a bit 21:32:00 Meh, it complicates the system a bit more, but it also gives a stronger "set it up and forget it long term" mindset. 21:32:05 kilobyte: yes, that is what I said 21:32:08 ATM you turn off skills you don't want to train in the immediate future 21:32:09 Cryp71c: no, it doesn't 21:32:11 that's the problem 21:32:28 but ultimately, you're going back into m to turn skills off and on ever few thousand turns, if not much more often. 21:32:34 having that amount of customizability means that people will be fiddling with it constantly 21:32:35 the difference is merely *4, skills tend to have differences in exercise rate of *100 or bigger 21:32:37 03pointless_ * r53cbc4ba3eb6 10/crawl-ref/source/ (spells1.cc spells1.h spl-cast.cc): Don't cast firestorm beyond maximum range if ! is used (379) 21:33:10 doy, certainly, they would be fiddling with it constantly if they a) don't set it up properly the first time or b) make a significant change in character direction at some point in the game. 21:33:16 kilobyte: yes, thats perhaps the bigger issue that needs to be solved, first. 21:33:17 kilobyte: yes 21:33:30 -!- Demos has left ##crawl-dev 21:34:04 some skills simply train to slow, others train too cumbersomely (we will do Armour and Dodging) and the effect of +- in m should be more pronounced 21:34:04 some skills are exceedingly difficult to train, while others are "greedy", and will steal every availible skillpoint. 21:34:09 but I said all of this hours ago 21:34:27 I only just joined the conversation 10 minutes ago :( 21:34:28 yeah, irc is really not the best way to be having this discussion, at this point 21:34:29 like my casters usually end up with much higher weapon skills than I intended... 21:34:32 idea: let's add logging to CDO. We can count for every skill how many times it was exercised vs how many times it was actually trained (non-empty pool). 21:34:56 kilobyte, that sounds like more data than (I think) anyone is willing to sift through. 21:34:58 kilobyte: this is clogged up by melee and kill casting 21:35:15 simply because weapons aren't constrained by mana, and I tend to be a conservative caster... 21:35:20 one of the advantages of a retroactive system is that the killing action is less emphasised 21:35:23 right, victory dancing would cloud the data 21:35:35 kilobyte: not just dancing 21:36:05 maybe crawl should just embrace victory dancing and try to make it part of the game 21:36:15 (more obvious to newer players) 21:36:38 purge, if that's the mindset we take, you should just be able to manually dump xp into certain skills (even skills you may not have at lvl 1) 21:36:45 what Cryp71c said 21:36:46 that's basically the same as switching to manual allocaton 21:36:47 "here we go, 3k xp into dodging" 21:36:52 and that's not a good end result 21:37:37 I don't think its the *best* end result, but at first glance its no worse than victory dancing an ability/skill/action for a 500 turns to empty your pool. 21:37:54 to some extent, it might be somewhat better, especially from the players' standpoint... 21:37:57 manual allocation isn't that bad, especially if you do that not by saying "3k xp into dodging", but "I want 1/3 of my xp go into dodging" 21:38:23 Cryp71c: it might be better than the current state, but overall, it's not a great direction 21:38:46 doy, no, its certainly not a great long-term fix. More like a mediocre patch 21:38:47 "we should do this because it's better than victory dancing" is not a very strong argument d: 21:38:49 kilobyte: or maybe a priority list type thing 21:39:10 random aside. I once played a game which had a system where exercising a skill increased your "potential" in a skill, but you had to actually allocate points to the skill to realise that potential... 21:39:24 doy, we've approached this from so many angles that - unelss someone comes up with a revolutionary idea that no one else has thought of thus far - I see XP being reworked entirely. 21:39:27 not sure what I was really hoping to ad with that comment, but there you go... 21:39:33 Textmode: so have I 21:39:37 Cryp71c: define entirely 21:40:03 is there a wiki page? 21:40:05 Textmode: that's basically how the proposed skill training revision works 21:40:07 TGW, xp pool, skill training, maybe even leveling? idk, its hard to say. 21:40:26 Textmode: so that would be forward dancing... less tedious than current dancing after every big kill 21:40:30 except that the allocation of points is automatic when you gain xp 21:40:59 eg, there would be no need for an xp pool, since xp is automatically diverted upon killing something. 21:41:00 yes, i think pre-dancing is much less problematic than post-dancing 21:41:15 Cryp71c: yes, i'm very much in favor of proposals that remove the need for the xp pool 21:41:19 kilobyte: you'd have to "dance" if you were changing direction, but for you main skillset, you'd probably have all the "potential" you need. 21:41:20 ok, lemuel suggested exactly what I was going to 21:41:32 doy, that would also remove the need for being concerned about the pool cap..since..there's no pool. 21:41:37 Cryp71c: yes 21:41:40 Textmode: yeah 21:41:52 hopefully the "less problematic" is pretty significant as messing with the skill system sounds like something that would take a bit of work 21:41:57 doy, it also means training skills you don't have is very problematic. 21:42:07 Spellcasting being the biggest that I can think of. 21:42:14 make each skill on or off, an exercise turns it on, hella time turns it off; assign exp randomly between 'on' skills 21:42:30 TGW, that sounds terrible, if I'm understanding you correctly 21:42:40 Cryp71c: how's that? 21:42:56 Cryp71c: it sounds bad, but it actually has a few perks above the current system. 21:43:03 recognizing the quantity of training is bad because you get dancing 21:43:05 Cryp71c: theoretically, you'd be able to disable all of your current active skills, read some scrolls, and then go kill some things 21:43:06 namely that all skills are equal, in its eyes. 21:43:08 whether pre-dancing or post-cdancing 21:43:13 TGW, random exp assignment between all skills that have recently been exercised, regardless of how often they were excercised (in relation to the excercision of every other skill) is terrible. 21:43:17 so if you want to train casting, you would: sit in a corner and exercise casting (pre-dancing), mark the skill as +, go killing stuff 21:43:29 the only way a skill can "steal" XP is if its too easy to "activate" 21:43:30 Cryp71c: all skills which are recently exercised should have an equal chance 21:43:43 and even then, its weighted no higher than any other "active" skill. 21:43:43 except -'d ones 21:43:57 which is actually an improvement over the current system... 21:44:02 TGW, no, skills should be trained based on the frequency they've been used in proportion to the number of times every other skill has been used in the last, say....5k turns. 21:44:08 fulsome doesn't get overwhelmed with melee combat, and people can't dance 21:44:33 Cryp71c: then people dance 21:44:34 1/2 chance of being your most recently used skill, 1/4 2nd most recent, 1/8 3rd most recent, 1/16 4th most recent, ... 21:44:40 TGW, pre-dancing is better tha post-dancing. 21:44:47 there is literally no way to dance with my system 21:44:48 i don't think pre-dancing is much of a problem 21:44:56 TGW: right, it's just bad always 21:44:58 d: 21:44:58 Cryp71c: thats logical, but inherits the flaw the current system has, some skills just lend themsevles to frequent use, others to infreqeunt use. 21:45:03 doy: why? 21:45:11 Cryp71c: Axes get used hundreds of times more often that for example, most Ench/Tmut spells 21:45:25 kilobyte, then axes will be leveled more than ench/tmut spells, if axes is on. 21:45:29 Welcome to the m-screen. 21:45:38 its tempting to say "well, weight them according to average use accross games", but different builds have very different usage patters. 21:46:01 Textmode, yeah, that's not what we're saying either, its based on the use of each skill for that given game over the history of the player. 21:46:07 Cryp71c: -axes trains faster than +enchantment without dancing 21:46:19 TGW: because it would mean pretty much uniform skill growth 21:46:26 modulo aptitudes 21:46:27 doy: out of skills you actually use 21:46:32 even still 21:46:35 and it's random 21:46:39 ly assigned 21:46:42 it would basically force people to manually use the m screen 21:46:48 a buffing/shapeshifting character casts spells at a very different rate than a summoner, who casts at a different rate than a conjurer. which has profound effects on the "training rate" for, say, the base Spellcasting skill... 21:46:53 it's no more uniform now but some skills train fast as shit 21:46:58 because uniform skill growth among the skills you actually use is almost never what you want 21:47:01 but for that* 21:47:22 what do you want, then? 21:47:39 Textmode, increase the training scale factor for those categories of spells, since we know they're not going to be used as often, even though they play a huge part in the character's success. 21:47:40 skill growth should be dependent on how much you use the skill 21:47:53 one part of the problem is that whats perfect for one character is horribly wrong for another... 21:48:13 i don't want t&d and axes to train equally fast 21:48:19 even if i'm constantly using both of them 21:48:30 then turn t&d off 21:48:34 wrong answer 21:48:44 what if you want T&D to train as fast as axes? 21:48:48 forcing people to manually fiddle with the skill screen is wrong 21:48:52 like textmode is saying 21:49:06 the current system works because you almost never have to fiddle with the skill screen unless you want to 21:49:11 Repel Missiles and Slow are both ench, and you use the former rarely and spam the latter -- and yet it's RM which is a vital spell while Slow is merely a gimmick 21:49:53 kilobyte: so train them uniformly if you use both 21:49:53 :o 21:50:10 TGW: it's optimizing for the common case - right now if you want t&d to train as fast as axes you have to manually turn axes off, which is fine, because almost nobody wants that 21:50:23 or if you want fighting to train as fast as axes, I guess 21:50:28 having the default case be noticeably sub-optimal is bad 21:50:30 doy: let's log games to gather data how an average player allocates skills. That will be a starting point for the default settings, so most folks won't have to 'm' manually. 21:50:55 TGW: both are ench, so they're different use cases for the same skill 21:51:14 kilobyte: what textmode said though... "average player" is quite different depending on the build 21:51:19 mine still fixes that 21:51:34 rmsl doesn't need to be spammed to get its share of exp 21:51:44 lemuel's, I should say 21:51:51 -!- elly_ is now known as elly 21:52:50 if T&D in particular is a problem you can make it exercise less 21:53:07 i'm not talking about t&d in particular, that was just an example 21:53:12 but on the other hand it's actually important to be fair to fighting and enchantment 21:53:24 i mean, look at the ending skill levels of most characters now 21:53:31 !log * winning 21:53:32 2323. Grimm, XL12 SpEn, T:3350: Can't find morgue! 21:53:32 k back, feeding daughter, typing with one hand 21:53:37 !log * winning -2 21:53:37 2322. pointless, XL12 SpEn, T:5031: Can't find morgue! 21:53:41 erm 21:53:46 !log * won -2 21:53:46 2322. pointless, XL12 SpEn, T:5031: Can't find morgue! 21:53:46 it's finding sprint games 21:53:49 oh 21:53:55 is there a way to filter that? 21:53:59 !log * won -3 21:53:59 2321. Shovelmint, XL27 MDCK, T:139135: http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/Shovelmint/morgue-Shovelmint-20100305-222553.txt 21:53:59 actually is sprint writing crash logs on cdo? 21:54:30 i didnt think sprint games were makin their way into lg 21:54:37 hmmmm 21:54:49 apparently it just doesn't save the morgue 21:55:37 T&D is more important now, and it's quote an annoying a skill to train 21:55:45 of course, planting traps later will help 21:55:59 dpeg: what do you think? 21:57:46 !lg * winning x=cv 21:57:46 2323. [cv=0.7] Grimm the Backstabber (L12 SpEn), worshipper of Makhleb, escaped with the Orb!. on 2010-03-06, with 269800 points after 3350 turns and 0:36:13. 21:57:49 !lg * winning x=lv 21:57:49 2323. [lv=0.1-spri] Grimm the Backstabber (L12 SpEn), worshipper of Makhleb, escaped with the Orb!. on 2010-03-06, with 269800 points after 3350 turns and 0:36:13. 21:57:58 !lg * s=lv 21:57:58 Bad arg 's=lv' - cannot summarise by lv 21:58:07 !lg * lv~=0.1-spri 21:58:07 Malformed argument: lv~=0.1-spri 21:58:10 !lg * lv=0.1-spri 21:58:13 9738. KiloByte the Spry (L11 SpPa), worshipper of The Shining One, blasted by a hell hound (blast of flame) on D (Sprint) on 2010-03-07, with 8966 points after 10320 turns and 0:35:55. 21:58:16 -!- stabwound has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 21:58:34 hmmm, odd 21:58:43 it should be 0.1-sprint.1 21:59:29 i guess the db field might be too small 22:00:43 sorear, talked tlo dpeg about heping with DS mutations, going to make a list on approved muts and whether theyre implemented and such on the DS brainstorm wiki, near the top. Might make sifting through that page less time consuming. 22:01:09 Cryp71c: I'll try to edit the DS page tomorrow. 22:02:26 -!- stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 22:04:53 dpeg, I'll get the section setup tonight and (what I know) already added to it. should reduce the amount you have to mark. 22:05:22 Cryp71c: awesome, helps me a lot 22:05:29 for some reason, these weeks are pretty busy 22:05:36 been texing for my wife tonight 22:13:56 03pointless_ * r333fc85d4e9e 10/crawl-ref/source/monster.cc: Only worry about unsubmerging into harmful clouds 22:15:17 Hey all, I just skimmed through this huge skill/xp pool discussion and I don't think anyone mentioned this... 22:15:36 Before I started playing online I always hacked my version to deny skill exercise if pool xp was low 22:16:05 it meant I could turn off the xp pool display and not worry about it... I dropped a patch on sourceforge yeeears ago :) 22:16:17 i'd much rather get rid of the pool entirely 22:17:11 for the curious: http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&aid=1744207&group_id=143991&atid=757515 22:18:38 mm, I don't disagree with that, this was a pretty simple and effective hack though 22:18:53 yeah, it would probably be better than the current implementation 22:27:10 fwiw, I added a section to the xp pool wiki page 22:27:27 yobbo: Hi, I recall your patch! :) 22:27:59 hi :) that's a good memory you have! 22:28:21 yobbo: I have lived in the SF tracker for years. 22:29:08 But now I'll sleep. 22:29:23 dpeg: oh you poor thing. The sf tracker really wears me down 22:29:35 yobbo: yes, we should have moved away much earlier. 22:29:40 03pointless_ * r17b899cf65ae 10/crawl-ref/source/beam.cc: Make enslavement fail on friendly monsters (415) 22:29:47 dpeg: 1/6? 22:29:57 TGW: whatever 22:30:01 heh 22:30:07 1/not much 22:30:28 I mean, what were you thinking? 22:30:32 of making it 22:30:43 yobbo: and we haven't managed to move all the SF content to the new tracker. 22:30:59 TGW: don't know... it needn't be a constant. 22:32:03 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: zzz] 22:42:13 03pointless_ * r682379d6cc16 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-act.cc: Cut down on message spam from neutrals not attacking (530) 22:53:39 -!- TGW has left ##crawl-dev 23:00:08 -!- tinymouse has quit [] 23:09:57 -!- Lubaf has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6/20100115144158]] 23:11:29 03pointless_ * rca0407beb8e6 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-act.cc: Fix message spam from charmed mosnters not attacking (oops) 23:20:35 !seen by 23:20:35 I last saw by at Sat Mar 6 23:06:19 2010 UTC (6h 14m 16s ago) quitting with message Ping timeout: 276 seconds. 23:20:44 :o 23:20:50 Did he fix 1003 23:20:53 Cool :D 23:24:25 -!- Cryp71c_ has joined ##crawl-dev 23:25:14 -!- TGW has joined ##crawl-dev 23:25:27 I love the new way 1.5-handed stats are displayed 23:25:46 and, the new 1.5-handed stats 23:27:25 there might be something problematic with the way stacks of throwing weapons are generated 23:27:44 this orc was clutching three spears of freezing, which is a bit bizarre 23:28:35 TGW: that's been an issue for ages 23:28:54 I wasn't aware it made stacks of throwing weapons before trunk 23:29:06 well... it did 23:29:07 (: 23:29:26 stacks of throwing weapons have been made since at least 0.3 23:29:34 it makes 1 weapon, then clones it a few times 23:29:46 was monster throwing broken in 0.5? 23:29:51 I don't remember that 23:30:00 though, I could be crazy 23:42:53 -!- TGW has left ##crawl-dev