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01:09:27 <Napkin> Moin guys
01:10:37 <elly> hey napkin
01:11:02 <Napkin> elly, what's up? :)
01:11:49 <elly> nothing really
01:11:51 <elly> up too late
01:17:58 <Napkin> heh - up too early here ;)
01:18:08 <Napkin> MarvinPA, still up?
01:27:31 <Napkin> MarvinPA, attached your save to the bug-report.
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02:12:59 <Keskitalo> Morning!
02:14:46 <Keskitalo> I can probably wash the dishes while waiting for Crawl to compile. :P
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02:16:38 <Napkin> Moin Keskitalo :)
02:16:54 <Napkin> I'll have breakfast then while you do the dishes :-P
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02:40:44 <Keskitalo> Done! The compile, too.
02:44:00 <Keskitalo> Off to the uni now.
03:18:39 <Ashenzari> Random crashes during the first start-up [tiles] (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=853) by evktalo
03:23:41 <Ashenzari> There's no error messages in tiles (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=854) by evktalo
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04:40:28 <CIA-29> 03kilobyte * r789ccfa84432 10/crawl-ref/source/ (abl-show.cc item_use.cc misc.cc misc.h player.cc spl-cast.cc): Stop some actions that would kill a merfolk due to -stat boots.
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04:59:46 <MarvinPA> Napkin: thanks!
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05:18:59 <due> MarvinPA: Thanks for the error report
05:18:59 <Henzell> due: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them.
05:19:02 <due> !messages
05:19:02 <Henzell> (1/2) doy said (9h 35m 11s ago): this is what mantis is for d:
05:19:04 <due> !messages
05:19:04 <Henzell> (1/1) MarvinPA said (8h 19m 9s ago): i got a fun error trying to lock a trove, are you able to backup the save? http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=852
05:19:21 <due> !tell napkin Can you backup MarvinPA's save if is hasn't been done already?
05:19:21 <Henzell> due: OK, I'll let napkin know.
05:19:35 -!- due changed the topic of ##crawl-dev to: DCSS development channel! | Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki | Ashenzari source: http://github.com/doy/crawlbot | due is out of action for the next few days.
05:19:40 <MarvinPA> due: he has done :)
05:19:44 <due> Awesome
05:19:47 <due> I can't look at it now
05:19:50 <MarvinPA> attached to the bug report
05:19:57 <due> Excellent
05:20:03 <due> !tell napkin Ah, thanks.
05:20:03 <Henzell> due: OK, I'll let napkin know.
05:20:43 <MarvinPA> okay, do you think i'm ok to carry on playing on CDO and ignore the trove for now? the lua error shows up whenever i'm in line-of-sight of it
05:20:57 <MarvinPA> or should i leave it and wait till you get a chance to take a look?
05:21:38 <due> Whenever you're in LOS?
05:21:40 <due> That's... odd
05:21:44 <due> KEep playing, tthat's fine
05:21:56 <MarvinPA> okay, cool
05:23:04 <due> Can you get into it?
05:23:18 <MarvinPA> yeah
05:23:24 <MarvinPA> it seems to work fine
05:24:02 <due> There probably won'tbe a play-testing post this weekend
05:25:22 <due> Unless I do one tomorrow, maybe.
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06:10:12 <dpeg> !seen due
06:10:12 <Henzell> dpeg: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it.
06:10:13 <Henzell> I last saw due at Thu Feb 18 11:25:22 2010 UTC (44m 51s ago) saying Unless I do one tomorrow, maybe. on ##crawl-dev.
06:10:20 <dpeg> !messages
06:10:20 <Henzell> (1/1) due said (12h 34m 30s ago): Yes, they are supposed to go neutral, but the code is buggy. I'll try to look into it next week.
06:10:29 <dpeg> due, you around?
06:10:50 <due> uh
06:10:52 <due> kinda
06:10:54 <dpeg> huh
06:11:07 <due> not for long
06:11:22 <dpeg> due, some of minmay's vaults are .... edgy. They're all interesting, but he does have dangerous bazaars :)
06:11:50 <dpeg> I suggest to use WEIGHTS a lot.
06:11:55 <due> yes, definitely
06:11:55 <due> i was go
06:12:03 <due> ing to relay and have a browse through them tonight
06:12:06 <dpeg> Zen riddle`
06:12:08 <dpeg> ah
06:12:10 <due> but circumstances have made that impossible, possibly tomorrow :)
06:12:18 <dpeg> due: I can also have a look. shall I?
06:12:23 <due> sure, please do!
06:12:26 <dpeg> okay, will do
06:12:28 <due> you can take oe rthe ticket if you prefer?
06:12:39 <dpeg> ah, fuck the ticket
06:12:54 <dpeg> I'll do it and close :)
06:13:04 <dpeg> but only this evening
06:13:22 <due> :)
06:14:23 <dpeg> Did you see this? http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:monster:player_ghost
06:14:30 <dpeg> zipcode is so cool
06:14:44 <dpeg> "They all look like pillowcases to me..." <3 <3 <3
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06:19:31 <due> those are all excellent
06:19:34 <dpeg> yes
06:19:42 <dpeg> will try to add some more
06:22:47 <due> dpeg: I also support adding spectral prefix for monsters.
06:23:33 <due> !tell Keskitalo * and | use good_item, which uses the acquirement calculations for gold quantity calcculation.
06:23:33 <Henzell> due: OK, I'll let Keskitalo know.
06:23:48 <CIA-29> 03kilobyte * r7fe3da2fb724 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-project.cc: Decrease IOOD damage at close range. Tie the accuracy to spell power.
06:27:09 <syllogism> do you get a different hit message when you use it at close range
06:27:14 <dpeg> kilobyte: I just wrote you a mail :)
06:28:18 <syllogism> also do you get a message when you get hit?
06:29:03 <due> okay
06:34:08 <kilobyte> syllogism: you don't, that's fixed in a commit pushed some time ago (CIA is a slow bastard)
06:34:22 <kilobyte> and both commits were pushed together, one got announced, one didn't
06:37:13 <Napkin> how is doy informed about which commits to put into 0.6 branch?
06:37:42 <due> Napkin: !tell or mantis.
06:37:45 <Napkin> I mean.. yesterday there were like a million bugs fixed
06:37:48 <due> or mentioning it in the commit message
06:37:49 <kilobyte> he decides on his own, perhaps with some nudging
06:38:06 <Napkin> sound.. inefficient to me
06:39:02 <Napkin> I asked caotto to also set "resolution" and "fixed in branch" so it's easier for doy to sort - but far from all fixes have a mantis tracker item
06:40:10 <due> i think he reads the commit log anddecides then
06:40:26 <Napkin> ok
06:40:40 <Napkin> i wouldn't have any idea how to make life easier for him either...
06:42:41 <cbus> re
06:42:53 <cbus> napkin, sup? no fix for "the issue"? :)
06:43:07 <due> goodnight
06:43:20 <Napkin> g'night due!
06:43:32 <cbus> night due
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07:07:11 <CIA-29> 03j-p-e-g * reeaa4aa1d505 10/crawl-ref/source/tilereg.cc: Don't draw tab tiles in the arena.
07:07:12 <CIA-29> 03j-p-e-g * rc8dc9aca966a 10/crawl-ref/source/tilesdl.cc: Also don't draw minimap player dot in arena mode.
07:07:13 <CIA-29> 03j-p-e-g * r574ee1cbb089 10/crawl-ref/source/ (abl-show.cc item_use.cc spl-cast.cc): Some message tweaks.
07:07:17 <CIA-29> 03j-p-e-g * rad52953d28f5 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/builder/arena.des: arena.des: Replace tile reference wall_zot_gray -> wall_zot_lightgray.
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07:28:17 <CIA-29> 03kilobyte * r4f97b78d732d 10/crawl-ref/source/art-func.h: Fix Vampire's Tooth behaving halfway like old, halfway like new vampiricism. [406]
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07:36:42 <CIA-29> 03kilobyte * r89bed7ed10fa 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-project.cc: Add a missing message when an IOOD hits the player.
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08:04:03 <Textmode> morning all
08:04:16 <dpeg> Hello Textmode!
08:04:27 <eith> greetings
08:04:37 <Textmode> whats up?
08:08:24 <dpeg> we're busy!
08:09:30 <Keskitalo> \o/ IOOD nerf!
08:09:30 <Henzell> Keskitalo: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it.
08:09:34 <Keskitalo> !messages
08:09:34 <Henzell> (1/1) due said (1h 46m 1s ago): * and | use good_item, which uses the acquirement calculations for gold quantity calcculation.
08:09:40 <dpeg> kilobyte: thank you
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08:15:11 <dpeg> Hi by!
08:15:19 <by> hi
08:15:51 <Keskitalo> Hi by!
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08:36:48 <dpeg> !seen greensnark
08:36:48 <Henzell> I last saw greensnark at Sun Feb 14 14:29:43 2010 UTC (4d 7m 5s ago) quitting with message Quit: Dark side of the earth.
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09:56:17 <Vandal> truant!
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10:09:59 <st_> thinking back about ashenzari, giving bonuses for wearing cursed gear sounds quite similar to che's deal
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10:14:29 <dpeg> st_: yes, that is true
10:14:37 <dpeg> need to keep those separate
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10:55:59 <Ashenzari> Scroll of detect curse - message ambiguous (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=855) by pocams
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11:03:00 <Napkin> Hi!
11:03:38 <scarf> hi
11:03:52 <Napkin> Hey scarf - what's up? :)
11:04:03 <scarf> still working on my ttyrec player
11:04:15 <Napkin> oh, cool :)
11:04:20 <scarf> and having issues with 0.5 Crawl ttyrecs, before their size was reduced somewhat
11:04:41 <scarf> jettyplay uses around 7 bytes of memory for each byte in the original ttyrec, which is a pain when dealing with ttyrecs which are 22 megabytes large
11:04:51 <Napkin> their size got reduced? you mean bzip2, right? ;)
11:05:04 <scarf> no, I mean the display redraw fixes in 0.6
11:05:04 <Napkin> uuh, indeed
11:05:06 <Vandal> btw, would anyone be opposed to detect curse / remove curse being combined into 1 scroll that does both?
11:05:11 -!- Anym has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
11:05:12 <doy> Vandal: yes
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11:05:26 <Vandal> well, past like D5 I just drop all my detect curses
11:05:27 <scarf> Vandal: the main benefit of the current arrangement is that it makes both scrolls harder to identify
11:05:40 <scarf> depending on your philosophy, this may or may not be a good thing
11:05:41 <doy> Vandal: the better solution would be to make remove curse a lot rarer
11:05:48 <doy> that would make both of them interesting
11:05:49 <Vandal> that would be painful
11:05:51 <Vandal> but yeah
11:06:02 <Vandal> it would also make id'ing scrolls a lot more painful
11:06:07 <Vandal> because cursing yourself would be a huge pain
11:06:20 <Vandal> I experienced this in a game recently
11:06:26 <Vandal> I found curse weapon before detect or remove
11:06:28 <scarf> hmm, late-game you apparently have enough identify that both remove and detect curse are relatively redundant
11:06:37 <scarf> Vandal: and you weren't wielding a butchering weapon?
11:06:43 <scarf> I did that once too, and died because of it
11:06:46 <Vandal> no.. I was a ranged char.. with my dagger on
11:06:55 <scarf> ah
11:07:13 <Vandal> well yeah scarf, this current game I have probably 10 excess id scrolls
11:07:21 <Vandal> and I'm not even anywhere important yet
11:07:26 <Vandal> just cleared mines and lair
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11:08:05 <doy> scarf: how much smaller are the ttyrecs now, by the way?
11:08:09 <doy> i was meaning to look into that
11:08:19 <scarf> I'm not sure; I have a bunch of 0.5 ttyrecs, but not 0.6 ttyrecs to compare against
11:08:27 <doy> ah, okay
11:08:48 <Napkin> you could take some off CDO, scarf
11:08:49 <scarf> jettyplay is sensitive to other details than just ttyrec size, though
11:08:55 <scarf> Napkin: I suppose so
11:08:58 <Napkin> 0.6-a2, I mean
11:09:41 <dpeg> Vandal: yes, I would oppose that
11:12:57 <Napkin> good :>
11:20:54 <kilobyte> scarf: why won't you use my libtty?  It allows seeking to a given frame in a ttyrec, taking hardly anything over the ttyrec's uncompressed size.
11:21:05 <Ashenzari> Zero-piety Vehumet worshippers have conj/summon spells highlighted (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=856) by xyblor
11:21:27 <kilobyte> scarf: it can uncompress them on the fly, fetch them right from telnet, and so on
11:21:55 <scarf> hmm, the most direct reason is that it's in the wrong language
11:22:10 <scarf> does it automatically fill in every character on the screen from previous frames?
11:23:11 <kilobyte> there's an array glyph:attribute
11:23:24 <scarf> kilobyte: same here, that's what's taking up the space, for things like searches
11:23:30 <scarf> the real issue is that Java stores everything in UTF-16
11:23:41 <scarf> and so it's inherently twice as large as it is in the original, even without doing anything
11:24:13 <kilobyte> well, I do it using uint32_t :p
11:24:47 <scarf> so, in that case, the reason's that you're storing the ttyrec in its original file rather than in memory
11:24:54 <scarf> because we're using a pretty similar architecture, it seems like
11:25:01 <kilobyte> so there is no stupid limitation to 1/17 of Unicode (although it still can't handle combining chars)
11:25:33 <kilobyte> the original file is usually compressed, or streamed, so you can't seek in it
11:26:03 <kilobyte> in fact, I have yet to see a place that uses ttyrecs but doesn't compress them
11:26:30 <bhaak> when the compress-cron breaks :)
11:26:56 <kilobyte> and other formats like the thingy DoomRL guys use are internally compressed too
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11:56:45 <TGW> is the three-columned stat display on the table?
11:58:45 <doy> dpeg said he tried it out, but thought it looked cluttered
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12:03:43 <TGW> argh
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12:12:37 <TGW> "Also, Cheibriados already reduces hunger precisely to offset this, so
12:12:37 <TGW> increased hunger was already taken care of."
12:12:40 <TGW> kilobyte is so wrong
12:14:47 <TGW> doy: did he produce a screenshot or anything?
12:27:33 <kilobyte> TGW: 0.5 was balanced, 0.6-a2 was balanced, current version is utterly broken
12:28:50 <kilobyte> sure, pathologically slow Che worshippers suffer from hunger, but that's a new issue, old stuff shouldn't be damaged because of it
12:28:50 <TGW> it seems like chei should defray the hunger cost per pondered item
12:29:04 <doy> kilobyte: how is old stuff damaged?
12:29:29 <TGW> because reduced appetite somewhat reduces it (although you still take 4/turn with 5 ponders)
12:29:43 <TGW> but you're still taking more compared to an unpondered cheiite
12:29:46 <TGW> which is weird
12:29:56 <syllogism> a troll wearing just 3 ponderous items consumes 12-13 nutrition per movement
12:30:37 <TGW> is there a pretty way to reduce hunger by a relative amount?
12:30:56 <kilobyte> that means Che is broken and needs to be fixed -- which can be done easily
12:31:26 <kilobyte> the hunger change breaks balance of things not related to Che which worked relatively well
12:31:33 <TGW> fair enough
12:32:37 <TGW> although changing naga seems like a good idea too
12:32:52 <kilobyte> the old change (in early 0.6) biased spriggans towards running away to rest and nagas towards fighting more aggressively
12:33:09 <syllogism> well the delay overhaul changed a lot of things
12:33:30 <syllogism> none of which were really balanced, though they mostly didn't have to be
12:33:34 <kilobyte> it fixed the weapon swap abuse, which is a good thing
12:33:54 <syllogism> so you now have things like death's door potentially lasting for 70+ turns
12:34:25 <syllogism> the delay overhaul was obviously very good
12:37:11 <syllogism> an easy and immediate fix would be to make haste not affect enchantment durations
12:37:34 <TGW> why is maces not a recommended weapon choice for ko?
12:37:46 <CIA-29> 03kilobyte 07debian * r48e0d283ea83 10/crawl-ref/ (1354 files in 74 dirs): Merge commit '0.6.0-a2' into debian
12:37:47 <CIA-29> 03kilobyte 07debian * r8007cf67536b 10/crawl-ref/source/makefile: Fix compilation from a clean tree. Unbreak "make package-source".
12:44:01 <CIA-29> 03kilobyte 07debian * r1f3f39a454f3 10/crawl-ref/debian/ (changelog rules): Fix build, rltiles/dc-player.txt is references even by the console version.
12:44:03 <CIA-29> 03kilobyte 07debian * r3c08d432d23f 10/crawl-ref/debian/control: Newest and greatest standards 3.8.4
12:44:07 <CIA-29> 03kilobyte 07debian * r9a867f7bd9dd 10/crawl-ref/debian/ (changelog control rules): Use system fonts instead of shipping our own.
12:44:09 <CIA-29> 03kilobyte 07debian * r8d831cfec596 10/crawl-ref/debian/control: Add ${misc:Depends} to make debhelper happy.
12:44:17 <Rarus> I noticed that one of Xom's minor effects is "Your eyebrows wiggle."  Do all the species have eyebrows?
12:44:40 <TGW> ke probably don't
12:45:00 <Rarus> Ah.  That's what I was playing at when I got it.
12:45:01 <TGW> undead almost definitely don't
12:45:41 <kilobyte> vampires are 99.99% human in outer appearance
12:45:43 <Rarus> They already have some minor difference in miscast wording...should the eyebrow bit be edited for them?
12:46:06 <Textmode> "your bandages flutter"
12:46:20 <Rarus> Exactly.
12:46:54 <kilobyte> the eyebrows message will appear for everyone except draconians and mummies
12:47:30 <kilobyte> kenku brow feathers can be probably named "eyebrows"
12:51:16 <Rarus> True enough.
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12:52:51 <Cryp71c> Afternoon!
12:56:05 <Rarus> Also...in the kenku description, it says they don't have wings...but two of the kenku dolls DO.
12:56:48 <TGW> I have no idea why kenku shouldn't have wings
12:56:53 <TGW> considering, you know, they fly
12:56:54 <Rarus> Neither do I.
12:57:18 <Rarus> They're obviously inspired by the Japanese mythological creature, the tengu.
12:57:51 <TGW> wingless kenku is a D&Dism
12:58:31 <Cryp71c> I think they were originally inspired by D&D Kenku, and were changed over time, give flight and such.
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12:59:33 <Eronarn> kenku have magical flight
12:59:51 <Eronarn> also, wingless kenku are a lot cooler
13:00:02 <Eronarn> also, this means draconians are the only race with wings (maybe also demonspawn)
13:00:36 <Textmode> according to the mutation, only draconians get wings.
13:01:11 <Cryp71c> Yeah, that may change once DS are finished up
13:01:17 <Cryp71c> But I rather like the depiction of wingless Kenku
13:01:48 <TGW> dr has vestigial wings
13:01:52 <Cryp71c> The D&D depiction is rather epic, curse their copyright
13:03:12 <TGW> where's the kenku tile?
13:03:57 <TGW> Cryp71c: http://happyhikers.ca/OtherStuff/PictureUploads/Kenku%201.JPG
13:04:13 <TGW> note how it looks *exactly like the D&D one* but has wings, and how much more sense that maks
13:04:15 <TGW> makes*
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13:06:32 <TGW> eronarn: I hope you realize how silly it is to justify a bird's flight as magical
13:07:46 <Cryp71c> eh, its a fairly small change in description, I don't really have a big position in it, tbh.
13:08:32 <Rarus> I suppose I could use the doll with wings, and just say they do have them.
13:10:59 <CIA-29> 03j-p-e-g * r614da335e1eb 10/crawl-ref/docs/changelog.txt: The levitation randart property still exists -> correct change log.
13:10:59 <CIA-29> 03j-p-e-g * r547a0c32edaa 10/crawl-ref/source/view.cc: Experimentally make clouds' exclusion radius depend on cloud type.
13:14:05 <Napkin> AC11 and EV13 on D4: Slain by Prince Ribbit (18 damage) - single hit kill... wtf?
13:16:11 <syllogism> I usually teleport as soon as I find prince ribbit that early unless i've wands
13:16:31 <Napkin> yes.. I understand that
13:16:51 <Napkin> but with 3 hounds around and AC11 I thought I'd at least survive a single blow :(
13:17:11 <Cryp71c> Napkin: yeah, I've taken really terrible dmg like that before :(
13:17:20 <syllogism> an ogre could hit for 30+
13:17:32 <Cryp71c> I think I took 50+ from a single javelineer in 1 turn in shoals before
13:17:38 <Cryp71c> and I had like 30AC
13:17:42 <syllogism> javelineers were nerfed though :(
13:17:51 <syllogism> greensnark nerfed everything!
13:17:52 <Cryp71c> good, they were crazy.
13:17:59 <Cryp71c> Nerf jiyva altar on D:2
13:18:02 <Cryp71c> died to jelly swarm
13:18:04 <Cryp71c> :P
13:18:55 <TGW> Cryp71c: consensus is that jellies are easy
13:19:55 <Cryp71c> Yeah, they're just aggrivating. I died because of burning acid :( Hardly any armour slots filled.
13:20:20 <Napkin> so.. what did I do wrong? why did my AC not work?
13:20:26 <syllogism> unlucky?
13:20:29 <TGW> napkin: RNG
13:20:31 <Cryp71c> Napkin: AC is a roll
13:20:37 <TGW> ribbit is pretty scary
13:20:39 <Napkin> fuck
13:20:40 <doy> Napkin: 11 ac means roughly -1d11 damage
13:20:41 <Napkin> as always...
13:20:43 <Cryp71c> so you just rolled low, and rabit deals lots of dmg anyways
13:21:14 <Napkin> 20
13:21:23 <TGW> @??prince ribbit
13:21:23 <Gretell> Prince Ribbit (11F) | Speed: 14 (swim: 60%) | HD: 6 | Health: 40 | AC/EV: 3/12 | Damage: 20 | Flags: amphibious, spellcaster, cold-blooded | Res: 06magic(40) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 302 | Sp: teleport self.
13:21:23 <doy> @??prince ribbit
13:21:23 <Gretell> Prince Ribbit (11F) | Speed: 14 (swim: 60%) | HD: 6 | Health: 40 | AC/EV: 3/12 | Damage: 20 | Flags: amphibious, spellcaster, cold-blooded | Res: 06magic(40) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 302 | Sp: teleport self.
13:21:29 <TGW> that is pretty bad
13:21:32 <TGW> !lg napkin x=dam
13:21:32 <Henzell> 424. [dam=18] Napkin the Magician (L4 DEWz), slain by Prince Ribbit on D:4 on 2010-02-18, with 277 points after 4093 turns and 0:31:05.
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13:24:13 <Cryp71c> @??Ogre
13:24:13 <Gretell> ogre (07O) | Speed: 10 | HD: 5 | Health: 15-40 | AC/EV: 1/6 | Damage: 17 | Res: 06magic(20) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 120.
13:24:20 <Cryp71c> yeah, that's only unarmed damage too
13:24:42 <Cryp71c> isn't it? I thought I recalled someone saying that sometime.
13:25:01 <doy> yeah
13:25:08 <doy> club damage is on top of that
13:25:16 <doy> which is why hill giants are so scary
13:25:21 <doy> @??hill giant
13:25:21 <Gretell> hill giant (04C) | Speed: 10 | HD: 11 | Health: 33-88 | AC/EV: 3/4 | Damage: 30 | Res: 06magic(44) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 657.
13:25:30 <doy> 30 + giant spiked club
13:26:18 <Cryp71c> doy: ohhhh
13:26:19 <syllogism> !lg * killer=hill giant max=dam x=dam
13:26:19 <Henzell> 1463. [dam=72] ekaterin the Reanimator (L10 VpDK), worshipper of Nemelex Xobeh, demolished by a hill giant (a +0,+0 giant spiked club) on Lair:2 on 2008-11-21, with 5860 points after 17762 turns and 2:00:26.
13:26:21 <Cryp71c> thats base damage?
13:26:29 <syllogism> ...
13:26:32 <Cryp71c> well, not base damage
13:26:49 <Cryp71c> ??giant spiked club
13:26:50 <Henzell> giant spiked club[1/1]: It looks *really* painful.  Damage rating: 20   Accuracy rating: -7  Base attack delay: 200, (pierce) damage, never generated with an enchantment.  Cannot be wielded except by trolls, hill giants, and ogres. In trunk, they are 22 damage, 18 delay!
13:27:08 <syllogism> !lg * killer=hill giant dam>40 s=dam
13:27:08 <Henzell> 44 games for * (killer=hill giant dam>40): 12x 42, 10x 41, 8x 43, 3x 44, 3x 45, 2x 46, 2x 47, 1x 48, 1x 72, 1x 53, 1x 64
13:27:34 <syllogism> !log * killer=hill giant max=dam
13:27:34 <Henzell> 1463. ekaterin, XL10 VpDK, T:17762: http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/ekaterin/morgue-ekaterin-20081121-161542.txt
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13:28:13 <Cryp71c> doy: ok, so for hill giant wielding a giant spiked club, its d 30+22+str ?
13:28:21 <Cryp71c> Does that explain that 72dmg kill?
13:28:23 <syllogism> no
13:28:26 <jarpiain> berserk
13:28:34 <TGW> don't ask people how combat works
13:29:00 <Cryp71c> TGW: just curious to see if there was more to it (as far as the basics go)
13:29:16 <Cryp71c> hadn't ever delved into the dmg code, didn't know of monsters have stats like pchars od
13:29:20 <Cryp71c> s/od/do
13:29:42 <jarpiain> @? orb guardian
13:29:42 <Gretell> Orb Guardian (06X) | Speed: 14 | HD: 15 | Health: 45-120 | AC/EV: 13/13 | Damage: 45 | Flags: see invisible | Res: 06magic(120) | XP: 3881.
13:29:52 <jarpiain> !lg * killer=orb guardian dam>45 s=dam
13:29:52 <Henzell> 9 games for * (killer=orb guardian dam>45): 2x 47, 2x 46, 1x 53, 1x 56, 1x 57, 1x 48, 1x 49
13:30:59 <syllogism> !lg antaeus dam>60 s=dam
13:30:59 <Henzell> No games for antaeus (dam>60).
13:31:06 <syllogism> !lg * killer=antaeus dam>60 s=dam
13:31:06 <Henzell> 7 games for * (killer=antaeus dam>60): 1x 74, 1x 96, 1x 62, 1x 71, 1x 93, 1x 79, 1x 65
13:36:58 <jarpiain> !source mons_calc_damage
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13:37:03 <Henzell> Lines pasted to http://pastebin.com/ma7c6c73
13:38:10 <syllogism> is that 0.5 code
13:38:28 <TGW> what OS are you supposed to use for feature requests?
13:38:59 <eith> heznell uses 0.5 code there yea
13:41:39 <Ashenzari> Make Phase Shift work while paralysed (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=857) by TGW
13:41:39 <jarpiain> that function is same in trunk, mons_apply_defender_ac() does the gdr calculation
13:45:04 <Napkin> I usually choose "Other Both", TGW
13:46:29 <Napkin> but only "Both" is important if it's for both tiles and ascii
13:51:37 <Rarus> Shouldn't the "Rotting Hulk" cause rotting?
13:51:52 <syllogism> jarpiain: didn't that water damage part get axed
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13:53:38 <TGW> rarus: rot as used without object
13:54:28 <TGW> of course it's not rotting itself, so it's all very confusing
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14:05:26 <CIA-29> 03j-p-e-g * r86adb1963f10 10/crawl-ref/source/ (effects.cc mapdef.cc): Spacing fixes.
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16:05:32 <CIA-29> 03j-p-e-g * re74122e3ba67 10/crawl-ref/source/invent.cc: In inventory prompts, list ? and Esc commands for menu access/quit.
16:05:44 <CIA-29> 03j-p-e-g * rcd22bf849b61 10/crawl-ref/source/ (cloud.cc tilepick.cc): For negative cloud decay values, cap cloud tile offset at 0.
16:05:58 <CIA-29> 03j-p-e-g * rf1fdb86c59fc 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/descript/items.txt: Change ?EW descriptions to mention they affect the _wielded_ weapon.
16:08:18 <dpeg> cheers, anybody here?
16:08:39 <kilobyte> meow?
16:08:55 <dpeg> kilobyte: Hi Adam!
16:09:16 <dpeg> I wrote another IOOD mail... Shall we leave the topic, so you don't have to replyß
16:09:39 * dpeg practising with this keyboard: ?????????ß?????ßßßß????
16:10:15 <TGW> on whose plate is the lu altar?
16:10:25 <TGW> due?
16:10:28 <dpeg> TGW: from Mantis?
16:10:31 <TGW> yeah
16:10:38 <dpeg> nobody, I think
16:10:46 <TGW> oh
16:11:09 <TGW> hm, it is unassigned
16:11:12 <dpeg> It's not really urgent and there's so much other stuff to do... it won't be forgotten, don't worry.
16:11:32 <kilobyte> dpeg: I'm not sure if the current solution is the best one, right.
16:11:52 <dpeg> kilobyte: my question is just if I should write down my proposal for the wiki.
16:12:03 <dpeg> (And it's not intended for 0.6, of course.)
16:12:58 <TGW> I'm asking because someone needs to add curare to the tso loot
16:13:02 <kilobyte> there's a problem for 0.6: I'll be away from Friday evening up to next Saturday
16:13:16 <TGW> but I'll wait until someone takes a look at it
16:13:45 <kilobyte> so unless someone has a strong opinion, let's leave it as is for now
16:14:48 <kilobyte> but for after 0.6.0, yeah, we can change the spell if there's a good idea
16:14:56 <dpeg> kilobyte: I am all for leaving it as now.
16:15:04 <dpeg> kilobyte: holidays?
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16:15:49 <dpeg> Vandal: Hi!
16:16:41 <kilobyte> yeah, I got pulled onto a skiing trip by the family
16:16:49 <Vandal> hi!
16:16:52 <dpeg> kilobyte: hey, have fun!
16:16:52 <Vandal> how you doing dpeg?
16:17:05 <dpeg> Vandal: busy times.... and not because of 0.6 :)
16:17:09 <Vandal> oh my
16:17:14 <Vandal> well you do have a family and all
16:17:18 <dpeg> better than unbusy times :)
16:17:29 <Vandal> I was going to ask, I'm picking classes for spring right now
16:17:40 <Vandal> Can you recommend any low level classes that might help me help you?
16:17:41 <dpeg> Vandal: you sent me a mail with monster descriptions... could you re-send, but only those descriptions you modified? That would help me.
16:17:47 <Vandal> oh
16:17:48 <dpeg> Vandal: math?
16:17:56 <Vandal> I'm taking Trigonometry
16:17:58 <Vandal> already
16:18:06 <Vandal> not sure what other classes I am allowed to take
16:18:10 <Vandal> I haven't done Calculus yet
16:18:42 <dpeg> Vandal: don't think I can help you... the American system of highschool education is completely different from the European ones. I learned this when I was in Canada.
16:18:48 <Vandal> ah
16:18:56 <dpeg> Vandal: but you can always ask me with mathematical questions :)
16:19:01 <Vandal> :D
16:19:25 <TGW> I'm going to take German so I can piss off devs in two languages
16:19:35 <Vandal> nice
16:20:12 <dpeg> TGW: Scheiße!
16:20:50 <st_> for some reason haunt is acting like it isn't smite targeted when using z. But it still works smite with Z
16:20:50 <dpeg> (joke!)
16:22:14 <CIA-29> 03kilobyte * r2e7cf33f9308 10/crawl-ref/ (5 files in 2 dirs): Allow using alternate (system) fonts as build #defines.
16:22:25 <Vandal> dpeg do you want me to just copy paste them in IRC query? there aren't that many
16:22:50 <dpeg> Vandal: email would be a bit better =)
16:22:54 <Vandal> roger
16:22:57 <dpeg> thank you
16:23:57 <dpeg> Does anybody know if we use "...end.  New sentence..." or "...end. New sentence..." in Crawl messages and documentation?
16:25:02 <Vandal> dpeg, I'm trying to find your email address and having trouble, can you tell me it?
16:25:11 <Vandal> wait nvm
16:25:15 <Twinge> Single spaces for changelog I think
16:25:23 <Vandal> I wonder why gmail doesn't remember me sending you the first one
16:25:28 <Vandal> but it does show it in my sent items
16:25:35 <Vandal> but it won't auto-complete your name :)
16:25:49 <Twinge> Most people default to a single space; I default to the extra space, so sometimes I have to go back and delete the extra spaces :P
16:25:51 <dpeg> Twinge: I am doing speech :)
16:27:17 <CIA-29> 03kilobyte * r0533438f9a2e 10/crawl-ref/source/AppHdr.h: ... and allow using shipped fonts.
16:27:38 <dpeg> Vandal: got it?
16:27:58 <Twinge> dpeg: Hmm in speech it looks like there's the extra space
16:28:10 <Twinge> @The_monster@ says @to_foe@, "I need a new robe.  I'll buy it with your money."
16:28:24 <Twinge> @The_monster@ says @to_foe@, "You can't kill me.  I'm immortal."
16:28:26 <Twinge> etc.
16:28:26 <kilobyte> double spacing is the "high style" version
16:28:27 <st_> I'm looking at the documentation ingame now, no extra space there
16:29:10 <Twinge> Looks like Yiuf has a setence with only one space
16:29:40 <Twinge> And Donald has some.  So it is inconsistent.
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16:31:18 <dpeg> Twinge: I was afraid it is. Thanks for looking.
16:31:31 <nrook> we need a new book called "The Book of Tempests in a Teapot"
16:32:01 <Vandal> sent
16:32:06 <Twinge> dpeg: Easy enough to remedy.  I could probably make a patch for it myself in the next day or two if I knew which way to make it consistent
16:32:07 <nrook> instead of spells, it can just be an archive of the current hunger/regen discussions on crd
16:33:58 <dpeg> nrook: Nethack's oracle gives a text from some CS textbook if you lack money. :)
16:34:37 <nrook> dpeg: haha, really?
16:35:15 <dpeg> yes!
16:38:00 <TGW> far as I can tell, double spacing with fixed-space font is *a ton of space*
16:38:53 <nrook> did you know: "gut duff" is not a command
16:39:14 <dpeg> hehe
16:46:03 <nrook> hmm, autoblink may be much harder than I anticipated
16:48:49 <Textmode> nrook: Gut Duff *should* be a command! ..I don't know what would do, but it should be valid!
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16:50:15 <nrook> yeah, "opportunistically blink for faster, less hungry travel" is not worth implementing just to screw with the current discussion
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16:58:30 <TGW> it seems like there are easier ways to grief devs
17:08:11 <TGW> are spriggan buffed or nerfed in pre-06?
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17:42:38 <Ashenzari> Character in light armour training Armour skill (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=858) by minmay
17:44:11 <dpeg> already closed :P
17:51:57 <TGW> seems like any given person in ##crawl could tell you that's not a bug
18:03:34 <dpeg> :)
18:03:42 <dpeg> minmay may not be on irc
18:04:43 <TGW> !seen minmay
18:04:44 <Henzell> Sorry TGW, I haven't seen minmay.
18:04:45 <TGW> hm
18:05:54 <TGW> is there any unallocated space on m?
18:06:08 <TGW> it seems like it would be nice to put the experience apt there
18:06:24 <dpeg> Does anybody know if we can use KFEAT: ABCDE = altar_zin in des files?
18:06:44 <dpeg> TGW: you can do m!
18:07:04 <TGW> the leveling apt
18:07:09 <TGW> XL apt
18:07:27 <TGW> maybe replace the exp pool line with apts toggled on
18:08:47 <TGW> dpeg: I'm almost sure that works
18:09:29 <dpeg> TGW: ok
18:09:35 <dpeg> TGW: ah!
18:09:36 <pointless_> c-r-d discussions always feel so productive
18:09:39 <TGW> five zin altars might be a bit unwelcome
18:09:45 <dpeg> pointless_: yes, I know
18:09:58 <dpeg> pointless_: I didn't actually follow, after I supported you.
18:10:03 <dpeg> pointless_: was my summary correct?
18:10:33 <pointless_> What you said was correct
18:11:37 <pointless_> I just proposed undoing the revert that sparked the discussion, removing a level of slow metabolism from Sp, and giving a level of slow metabolism to Na
18:11:54 <pointless_> (not necessarily for 0.6)
18:13:28 <Twinge> Right now slow meta 2 is the same as slow meta 1 isn't it?
18:13:38 <TGW> yes
18:13:55 <pointless_> oh really,  I thought it was 1 hunger per turn per level
18:13:58 <TGW> but giving sp meta 2 and ha meta 1 is more indicative
18:14:11 <TGW> since sp hungers less while moving
18:14:14 <pointless_> ?? slow metabolism
18:14:14 <Henzell> slow metabolism[1/1]: A mutation which reduces food use.  Level 1/2 have the same effect, 3 is better. -1/-1/-2.
18:14:23 <Twinge> Sp meta 2 seems awful when combined with the proposed non-guaranteed hive
18:14:23 <TGW> pointless: that would give no hunger at 3 levels
18:14:35 <pointless_> sp have slow metabolism 2?
18:14:40 <Twinge> No, they have 3
18:14:41 <TGW> no
18:14:43 <pointless_> oh ok
18:14:51 <pointless_> then what I wrote actually makes sense
18:15:00 <Twinge> I'm saying reducing it to 2 seems kind of awful, but I don't know the full context
18:15:06 <TGW> yes
18:15:16 <pointless_> The context is they get less hunger per turn while moving in 0.6
18:15:20 <TGW> and that just leaves chei
18:15:21 <TGW> :|
18:15:24 <Napkin> hey dpeg?
18:15:37 <pointless_> I'm taking no responsibility for Chei
18:15:55 <Napkin> tiles version shows spell power in "number (max number)" style now?
18:15:58 <dpeg> Napkin: yes?
18:15:59 <TGW> I was thinking chei could scale your hunger down while moving based on how pondered
18:16:00 <TGW> you are
18:16:13 <dpeg> pointless_: I got quite confused in the process... and I still am.
18:16:37 <Napkin> btw - the memorizing tab in tiles is awesome! finally you can see range & spell hunger before actually memorizing the spell :) great!
18:16:39 <dpeg> pointless_: what is the current state?
18:16:39 <TGW> like, 3/10 -> 3/20 if wearing 5 items, so it's the same
18:18:18 <pointless_> dpeg: Hunger was changed from a flat amount per turn to scaled based on how long your turn was
18:18:48 <dpeg> pointless_: this was your change, quite some time ago?
18:18:50 <pointless_> baseline delay is 10, Sp have a movement delay of 6, nagas have a movement delay of 14
18:18:52 <pointless_> right
18:19:04 <dpeg> pointless_: this seemed natural, but boosts Sp and hurts Na?
18:19:21 <pointless_> Yes, so that was the objection people made to the change
18:19:24 <TGW> (and chei)
18:19:27 <dpeg> fair enough
18:19:31 <dpeg> I agree this is not idea.
18:19:32 <dpeg> l
18:19:46 <dpeg> however, you changed much more back then, if I recall correctly
18:20:10 <pointless_> Yes, but it was in a giant commit flood so I think people didn't notice a lot of the details
18:20:53 <pointless_> basically I changed 'most' player durations to be scaled based on delay, and hp/mp regen, and food
18:21:09 <dpeg> pointless_: I mean that there were more changes for using relative rather absolute time?
18:21:19 <dpeg> yes
18:21:29 <nrook> somehow, this all seems like a huge non-issue
18:21:33 <pointless_> all the changes were moving away from per turn, to per unit time
18:21:40 <dpeg> pointless_: regeneration should stay player-centric?
18:21:46 <nrook> oh no, spriggans will have to eat moderately less food when traveling, and nagas will have to eat moderately more
18:21:57 <dpeg> erm, regen --> stays absolute time
18:22:01 <nrook> also, autotravel is broken, because with ctele you can use far less hunger by blinking your way manually to the destination
18:22:12 <dpeg> nrook: please, we are talking
18:22:12 <pointless_> Yes,  I think regen should definitely stay on absolute time
18:22:34 <dpeg> pointless_: okay, so the only proposal is to turn hunger back to personal time
18:22:45 <dpeg> pointless_: why was there so much fuzz on c-r-d?
18:22:55 <nrook> I'm just saying that this does not seem like an actual balance issue
18:23:04 <dpeg> nrook: and still we are trying to improve it
18:23:14 <pointless_> kilobyte objected to making hunger on personal time since it would affect regneration per hunger use
18:23:32 <pointless_> slower actions (e.g. Na moving) would have better regeneration/hunger
18:23:33 <dpeg> explain?
18:23:36 <dpeg> ah
18:23:38 <nrook> dpeg: I'll leave you to it, then
18:24:36 <dpeg> pointless_: obviously that's a consequence of not having everything use absolute time
18:25:24 <pointless_> Yes
18:25:35 <dpeg> pointless_: as far as I see it, the crucial question is: who should get the additional hunger? And here I would always say: the spriggan.
18:27:18 <dpeg> pointless_: that was your (and most others) point?
18:27:59 <pointless_> Well I don't care that much but I recall several people objecting to the original hunger change on those grounds some time ago
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18:30:37 <dpeg> pointless_: you did revert the hunger bit already=
18:30:39 <dpeg> ?
18:31:01 <pointless_> I did, but I think the revert isn't in 0.6
18:31:17 <dpeg> that doesn't matter
18:31:39 <pointless_> well it's a trivial change (in terms of code) so it's a non issue either way
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18:36:29 <doy> yes, my entire point here is that making hunger issues easier for spriggans is really not great at all
18:37:35 <doy> so wait, is resting always speed 10?
18:38:01 <doy> why can't we just have resting and movement use the same amount of delay?
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18:38:39 <dpeg> doy: please explain
18:39:05 <doy> dpeg: i'm just trying to understand why moving would give nagas better regen than using 5
18:40:09 <dpeg> I am completely out of the loop... how is moving and resting different?
18:40:20 <doy> i don't know
18:40:23 <doy> that's why i'm asking
18:40:24 <doy> (:
18:40:45 <pointless_> Nagas have movement delay > 10
18:41:01 <pointless_> resting does happen in units of 10
18:41:10 <doy> well
18:41:11 <dpeg> ah, I see
18:41:23 <doy> it seems like the obvious solution here would be to make resting delay the same as movement delay
18:41:27 <dpeg> You can never assume that I know basic facts like these :)
18:41:35 <syllogism> that would be bad
18:41:37 <pointless_> That doesn't help, they could sit there and attack air
18:41:37 <doy> yeah, i didn't know this
18:41:45 <dpeg> doy: but we don't want fighting to be...
18:41:48 <dpeg> what syllogism said
18:41:49 <doy> pointless_: well, that's true in any case
18:42:00 <syllogism> plus it would make chei unplayable :P
18:42:27 <pointless_> doy: so the point about regeneration was that high delay actions currently (post revert) give you more regeneration per unit hunger since regeneration is pegged to time elapsed and hunger cost is per turn
18:42:36 <dpeg> okay, the most important property is that moving and resting are equivalent
18:42:51 <doy> pointless_: right, i understand that issue
18:42:52 <dpeg> grrr, dis disconnected again :/
18:43:14 <pointless_> doy: what are you confused about? I've lost track
18:43:48 <dpeg> everybody agrees with the ^ principleß
18:44:44 <doy> maybe hunger should stay on absolute time and spriggans should lose slow metab
18:45:22 <syllogism> no
18:45:34 <dpeg> syllogism: more verbosity, please :)
18:45:40 <kilobyte> it's not about just hunger, it's about regen/hunger
18:45:54 <doy> kilobyte: moving hunger back to absolute time would make regen/hunger constant
18:46:34 <kilobyte> doy: yeah, both personal/personal and absolute/absolute mean regen/hunger is constant
18:46:35 <dpeg> I don't mind that regen/hunger is not constant across species.
18:46:47 <syllogism> I think overall using absolute time is preferable, despite it having some issues
18:46:49 <kilobyte> and that means, neither slow nor fast actions can be abused
18:46:49 <doy> dpeg: across species isn't the issue
18:46:53 <dpeg> But having walking/resting behave differently (hunger or regen) is out of the question.
18:46:57 <doy> right
18:47:02 <doy> that's the issue
18:47:03 <kilobyte> having one of them absolute and the other personal is bad
18:47:18 <doy> since we have moves that take different amount of time
18:47:38 <dpeg> okay, so there is no real choice to using absolute time for everything...
18:47:39 <kilobyte> 0.5: personal/personal, 0.6-a: absolute/absolute, trunk: hunger personal/regen absolute
18:47:48 <syllogism> there's also piety decay which has used absolute time forever
18:47:49 <dpeg> kilobyte: thank you
18:48:33 <dpeg> so we're back to the starting point: going personal -> absolute helped Sp on the hunger front, and hurt Na?
18:48:44 <doy> dpeg: yes
18:48:53 <syllogism> Na has pr though so it's not a big deal, I suppose you could give them slow metabolism 1
18:49:01 <doy> yeah, i'm not concerned about naga
18:49:07 <kilobyte> yeah, with the opposite effect for regen
18:49:17 <doy> but spriggan really don't need any more help than they already have for food issues
18:49:34 <pointless_> kilobyte: read my last note to c-r-d, I don't believe 0.5 -> 0.6a had a real impact on regen
18:50:31 <kilobyte> pointless_: it nearly halved it for spriggans, but since hunger was reduced by the same amount, it has no deleterious effect except for heated fights
18:50:55 <pointless_> kilobyte: resting is a delay 10 action
18:51:07 <pointless_> please explain the impact the change had on spriggan regeneration while not moving
18:51:12 <dpeg> So we could leave everything as is, or we could reduce Spriggans slow metabolism by one level?
18:51:16 <doy> i think that making them both use absolute time, and removing some of spriggan's slow metab
18:51:19 <doy> would be the best option
18:51:30 <dpeg> doy: I think I agree.
18:51:40 <kilobyte> not moving and moving is same, except for trunk
18:51:53 <dpeg> kilobyte: yes, that's why we have to use absolute/absolute
18:52:15 <pointless_> how much did a spriggan regenerate when staying still for one turn in 0.5, and how much do they regenerate for staying still in 0.6?
18:52:20 <pointless_> I think it's the same
18:52:36 <kilobyte> pointless_: staying still, the same.  Same for nagas.
18:52:57 <pointless_> ok, so am I completely off base that you were trying to make a point about spriggan having worse regen in 0.6?
18:52:59 <doy> kilobyte: what pointless_ is saying is that players do almost all of their regen while standing still
18:53:08 <doy> so the actual effect was pretty minor
18:53:10 <syllogism> the amount you regen while moving doesn't have much effect
18:53:12 <pointless_> *completely off base in thinking
18:53:19 <syllogism> especially when you are fast
18:53:25 <syllogism> and can just go regen wherever
18:53:54 <kilobyte> you move most of the time, it's mostly conjurers who wait for longer times
18:54:03 <syllogism> why
18:54:06 <kilobyte> do we have stats somewhere?
18:54:10 <doy> kilobyte: you rarely move when not at full hp
18:54:17 <doy> at least, i'm pretty sure most people don't
18:54:19 <syllogism> ideally you regen after every fight
18:54:21 <doy> yeah
18:54:29 <pointless_> I pretty much always rest to regen then move
18:54:43 <kilobyte> you do?
18:54:48 <pointless_> yes
18:54:50 <doy> yes
18:55:39 <kilobyte> I rest when badly wounded, relying mostly on ongoing regen.  Not sure what other people do.
18:56:14 <doy> that's probably where some of this confusion is coming from then(:
18:56:55 <doy> in any case
18:57:12 <doy> are there actual arguments against making it absolute/absolute and reducing spriggans to slow metab 1?
18:57:23 <pointless_> I'm fine with that
18:57:48 <syllogism> that's a slight nerf but probably fine
18:58:04 <kilobyte> "slight"?
18:58:10 <syllogism> small
18:58:31 <syllogism> compared to 0.5
18:58:32 <kilobyte> just twice as much hunger all the time...
18:58:58 <doy> kilobyte: but they already get almost half of the hunger cost as 0.5
18:59:07 <doy> because they move naturally at delay 6
18:59:13 <doy> so yes, "slight" nerf
18:59:33 <kilobyte> move only
18:59:35 <syllogism> well resting will cost more nutrition
18:59:45 <syllogism> considerably
18:59:52 <syllogism> actually not sure if I like that
19:00:26 <syllogism> you could just make 1 the minimum, not very elegant however
19:00:48 <TGW> make it slow metab 2
19:00:52 <doy> make 1 the minimum for what?
19:00:56 <TGW> same thing, but looks different from ha
19:01:15 <syllogism> so at least one per action
19:01:16 <kilobyte> TGW: slow meta 2 = slow meta 1, twice as much hunger as slow meta 3
19:01:19 <dpeg> sorry, daughter has fever
19:01:21 <syllogism> nutrition
19:01:25 <TGW> (which is appropriate because sp hungers less due to faster movement)
19:01:42 <doy> no, i really don't think this is an issue
19:01:47 <doy> we do track how long players rest
19:01:49 <doy> in morgues
19:01:53 <doy> and it's barely nothing
19:01:56 <doy> *anything
19:02:21 <dpeg> let me point out that we don't want any discrepancy in moving vs resting; otherwise we can read "hints" like 'always move for resting' in the learndb
19:02:51 <doy> dpeg: yes
19:02:52 <dpeg> or are you already discussing somethign else?
19:03:49 <doy> something else
19:03:54 <dpeg> okay
19:03:56 <dpeg> what? :)
19:04:19 <doy> syllogism: looking at some morgue files, it looks like ~5% of turns are resting
19:04:26 <doy> in a normal game
19:04:54 <syllogism> I don't think it's an issue, no
19:05:53 <kilobyte> I think I have an idea.  Let's special-case moving, pretending it lasts 10 time both for regen and hunger.
19:06:03 <doy> meh
19:06:24 <kilobyte> This way spriggan regen and hunger returns to 0.5 case, naga regen and hunger is there too, no fast action abuse, no slow action abuse.
19:07:17 <kilobyte> Che's worshippers would have no penalty and still enjoy their current sustenation bonus.
19:08:16 <kilobyte> and since resting consists of time 10 turns, neither moving nor resting is advantageous
19:08:51 <dpeg> kilobyte: sounds good
19:09:06 <dpeg> are there any complications with haste etc.ß
19:09:22 <doy> that's what i'm afraid o
19:09:23 <doy> f
19:09:36 <doy> this whole 'everything uses absolute time' thing is supposed to be simplifying how the time stuff works
19:09:45 <doy> and sticking hacks in like this is kinda counterproductive
19:11:00 <kilobyte> doy: yeah, absolute time works fine, there are no new abuses, and races get roughly equal boosts and nerfs.  Absolute time = 0.6a version.
19:12:03 <kilobyte> it does mean that spriggans get a strong -regen +food bias when moving, and nagas get a strong +regen -food bias, though
19:12:38 <doy> no, it doesn't
19:12:56 <doy> kilobyte: i'm not sure what you're arguing for here
19:13:22 <doy> the "special case moving, pretending it lasts time 10" is basically "let's go back to move-based time for move actions"
19:13:24 <kilobyte> I'm pointing out the only downside in absolute time (ie, the 0.6a version).
19:13:40 <doy> which i'm saying is pretty counterproductive
19:14:10 <kilobyte> Both are much better than the current trunk (abs time, personal hunger).
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19:18:44 <doy> so yeah, i think we can disregard the effect on resting
19:19:13 <doy> in terms of hunger cost anywya
19:19:53 <dpeg> doy: disregard which effect?
19:20:16 <doy> dpeg: the hungering effect
19:20:26 <dpeg> I am faithfully doing my vaults, but I am afraid of resting != moving.
19:20:27 <doy> resting is only like 3% of the turns in a typical game
19:20:39 <doy> dpeg: yes, we've got that part covered d:
19:20:52 <dpeg> doy: the only one with precise statements is kilobyte
19:21:20 <doy> dpeg: ?
19:21:38 <doy> have my statements not been precise?
19:22:20 <dpeg> no
19:22:23 <dpeg> I am lost.
19:24:56 <doy> so my point here is that spriggans aren't getting a strong -regen +food bias when moving now, they're now getting no bias at all (and in 0.5 they had a strong +regen -food bias)
19:25:22 <dpeg> ok
19:25:27 <doy> and i think "no bias" is a step in the right direction
19:25:36 <kilobyte> doy: "now" as in "0.6" or "trunk"?
19:25:36 <doy> but this is a buff to spriggans that i don't think they need
19:25:43 <doy> kilobyte: before the revert
19:26:07 <doy> so the most straightforward way to address this is to reduce the level of slow metabolism for spriggans
19:26:19 <doy> the argument against this was that it would make them hunger more when resting
19:26:34 <doy> but looking at actual stats, resting is a very small percentage of the total number of turns
19:26:44 <doy> and so i don't think it's really relevant
19:26:44 <kilobyte> resting, fighting and, to a smaller extent, moving
19:27:01 <doy> yes
19:27:26 <doy> well
19:27:28 <doy> not fighting
19:27:35 <doy> hmmm
19:27:42 <kilobyte> the result would be: halved regen, doubled hunger.
19:27:51 <doy> kilobyte: only for resting
19:28:34 <doy> for movement it would be 83% regen, 120% hunger
19:28:37 <doy> compared to 0.5
19:28:46 <doy> which i don't think is horrible
19:29:07 <kilobyte> and movement is a vast majority of turns
19:29:10 <doy> right
19:30:26 <kilobyte> 60% regen, 120% hunger actually
19:30:53 <doy> ah, yeah
19:31:10 <doy> still
19:31:25 <doy> the regen isn't the important part
19:31:37 <doy> because few people use movement for regen (as far as i'm aware)
19:31:54 <kilobyte> which is exactly *2 nerf.  Not something to do willy-nilly to a quite well balanced race.
19:32:40 <kilobyte> vast majority of regen happens during moving.  Running away, moving with tension>1, etc.
19:36:39 <doy> shrug, my opinion has always been that spriggan food issues are a joke anyway
19:36:54 <doy> so i'm generally in favor of things that make food more of an actual issue
19:40:11 <kilobyte> we can do that if we make supply less random
19:41:24 <kilobyte> unless you're conjurating or berserking, you have more food than you need; only very bad luck can cause food issues
19:41:53 <doy> even when you're conjuring, you have more food than you need, assuming you train up spellcasting early
19:42:00 <doy> i've never tried spbe though
19:42:16 <doy> but i'm also not concerned about it
19:42:31 <doy> doesn't really bother me if that's a challenging combo
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19:42:42 <kilobyte> yeah, a wise spbe won't be berserking much
19:44:05 <kilobyte> you can't play a real conjurer since you won't get int*spellcasting of 160 earlier than pas the end of lair; this means your "big spells" are mephitic clouds when normal spellcasters whip out IOODs and the like
19:44:17 <kilobyte> but mere sting can get you a long way
19:44:22 <doy> true
19:44:35 <doy> spriggans make great reavers though
19:45:15 <kilobyte> yeah, sane spriggans are hybrids
19:51:14 <Napkin> does amulet of clarity allow berserk (potion, ability, trog)?
19:51:42 <doy> i believe it allows intentional berserk
19:51:51 <doy> but don't think i've ever tried it
19:52:12 <Napkin> could the same be added to the amulet of stasis & blink? :D
19:53:26 <doy> well, stasis and clarity are different
19:53:28 <Napkin> i found it weird that intentional berserk is allowed.. convenient, yes - but design logic.. weird
19:53:55 <Napkin> how different?
19:54:53 <kilobyte> stasis blocks all berserk
19:55:09 <Napkin> it does? not mentioned in the amulet
19:55:14 <Napkin> you sure?
19:55:27 <Napkin> *in the amulet's description
19:55:34 <kilobyte> it did before, lemme check
19:56:18 <Napkin> "[..] block [..] effects that would otherwise teleport, slow, haste, or paralyse its wearer."
19:56:39 <Napkin> block haste of berserk would make sense
19:57:43 <kilobyte> "You cannot go berserk with your amulet of stasis on."
19:57:49 <Napkin> anyways.. would like to mention again that i think allowing intentional berserk on clarity amulet is a very border-line decision. not logic.
19:57:57 <Napkin> that's not logic either.
19:58:16 <Napkin> in my opinion... anyways, g'night
19:58:18 <Napkin> o/
19:58:30 <kilobyte> in my implementation, I disallowed any berserk, but was later told to change
19:58:33 <dpeg> Napkin: gameplay > realism
19:58:43 <kilobyte> and I didn't argue long
19:58:44 <dpeg> We don't want players to force swapping amulets.
19:58:52 <Napkin> then allow intentional teleport and blink too?
19:58:57 <kilobyte> doh, and now you remind me why :p
19:59:08 <dpeg> I am talking about clarity.
19:59:12 <kilobyte> that's stasis.
19:59:20 <Napkin> talking about both :-P
19:59:28 <Napkin> bed waiting - bye!
19:59:43 <kilobyte> stasis: amulet swapping for berserk/tele.  Bad.
19:59:50 <dpeg> clarity is a useful amulet to wear, and we don't want to force berserkers into swapping it in and out
20:00:00 <dpeg> stasis has different uses, afaiu
20:00:22 <dpeg> stasis is *made* to prevent teleportation
20:00:48 <kilobyte> there was a proposal to make stasis give limited berserk with neither haste nor slowing
20:01:14 <dpeg> yes, I recall
20:01:39 <Napkin> i need blink to survive.. would have liked protection against externally induced slow/teleport though
20:04:14 <doy> Napkin: well, there's a lot of things i'd 'like'
20:04:15 <doy> (:
20:07:55 <kilobyte> it eat scrolls, too
20:08:19 <kilobyte> it'd be nice if it at least told you "this scroll won't work, doofus"
20:08:58 <dpeg> true
20:09:07 <dpeg> but the amulet is too new to be fully polished
20:09:58 <TGW> kilobyte: it should mark as useless
20:10:16 <TGW> if that doesn't prevent autopickup by itself
20:10:41 <kilobyte> we already have code to not waste scrolls when wearing a -TELE artefact
20:15:41 <CIA-29> 03kilobyte * rb04a3a5eb1c7 10/crawl-ref/source/item_use.cc: Don't waste scrolls with a known amulet of stasis.
20:21:11 <kilobyte> Napkin: oh, and I just recalled: clarity allows intentional berserk mostly to make the mutation not screw Troggies
20:21:38 <kilobyte> Napkin: you can swap amulets, can't swap mutations
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20:41:40 <TGW> I don't see what the problem with mutations with upsides and downsides is
20:41:50 <TGW> (especially since clarity is so cool now)
20:42:39 <TGW> it would be a triumph for flavor
20:44:38 <dpeg> (m)acro, keymap [(k) default, (x) level-map, (t)argeting, (c)onfirm, m(e)nu], (s)ave? Saving macros.
20:44:41 <dpeg> _Couldn't open settings/macro.txt for writing!
20:46:04 <nrook> oh, I got that on local a while ago
20:46:11 <nrook> I just figured it was some funny permissions issue and ignored it
20:49:15 <TGW> mantis and wiki are really slow today
20:49:18 <TGW> so's -dev
21:05:14 <nrook> is there a list of the color enums (MAGENTA etc.) somewhere? I can't find them in enum.
21:06:05 <nrook> oh, nm, found them
21:11:49 <doy> oh wow, norris can hit hard
21:11:52 <doy> wasn't expecting that
21:11:54 <doy> @??norris
21:11:54 <Gretell> Norris (04@) | Speed: 9 | HD: 20 | Health: 214 | AC/EV: 1/9 | Damage: 36 | Flags: evil, spellcaster, see invisible | Res: 06magic(133) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 6101 | Sp: brain feed, smiting, invisibility, confuse, paralyse, minor healing.
21:19:20 <TGW> norris is evil
21:19:37 <TGW> is there a way to put fixed width into mantis?
21:20:24 <doy> <pre>...</pre>
21:20:31 <TGW> thanks
21:33:37 <Ashenzari> strange fleeing monster behavior (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=859) by TGW
21:35:32 <dpeg> !tell due I have incorporated almost all of minmay's bazaars. Please don't do this, too, it was a lot of work :) The other vaults have to wait until tomorrow.
21:35:32 <Henzell> dpeg: OK, I'll let due know.
21:36:26 <TGW> !seen due
21:36:26 <Henzell> I last saw due at Thu Feb 18 12:43:07 2010 UTC (14h 53m 19s ago) saying goodnight on ##crawl-dev.
21:51:23 -!- Mu_ has quit [Quit: Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place.]
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22:12:32 <TGW> sustenance should have a warmup period
22:13:53 -!- stabwound has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
22:14:36 <TGW> works pretty beautifully since you take more food warming it up than you save if you're just swapping it
22:15:36 <dpeg> TGW: yes, the underlying question is if all strategic items should have such a mechanic.
22:16:18 <TGW> probably
22:17:03 <TGW> well, maybe... what else are you referring to?
22:17:56 <dpeg> good question :)
22:17:59 <dpeg> mapping etc is gone
22:18:10 <dpeg> in any case, sleeeeeeep
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22:23:50 <Ashenzari> Stealth brand tile submission (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=860) by LoginError
22:27:50 <nrook> we need a mathematician unique
22:27:58 <nrook> no attacks, completely neutral, goes around yelling at you for messing up his circles
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22:29:29 <TGW> and we need it before dpeg wakes up
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22:55:34 <TGW> K - the cursed +0 pair of boots by the Sea Horses (worn) {Slow}             (2.5 aum)
22:56:09 <TGW> I'm unarmed, so I know I'm not wielding a sword behind inappropriate prepositions
22:57:38 <nrook> !tell dpeg A mathematician unique! Totally neutral, can't attack, just follows you around and yells that you're disturbing his circles
22:57:38 <Henzell> nrook: OK, I'll let dpeg know.
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23:21:47 <pointless_> is there an easy way to create a monster with a throwing net in wiz mode?
23:23:04 <Twinge> M goblin ; throwing net  <-- something like that, not 10)% sure that's correct
23:23:46 <TGW> it is
23:31:28 <CIA-29> 03pointless_ * ra0ac0ccdb563 10/crawl-ref/source/ (main.cc output.cc): Refresh the SH display when the player becomes disabled [452]
23:45:52 <nrook> hmm, how about creating a monster with a bow and arrows?
23:47:15 <Twinge> goblin ; bow, 10 arrow   maybe?
23:49:11 <nrook> Bad item name: bow, 10 arrow
23:49:45 <nrook> Something like "goblin ; short sword, bow" doesn't work, either
23:49:59 -!- pointless_ has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.7/20091221164558]]
23:50:01 <nrook> this wouldn't concern me were it not for the refusal of many monsters to pick up ranged weaponry
23:50:03 <Twinge> Try just arrow or arrows, or a 2nd semicolon instead of a comma, etc.
23:50:19 <Twinge> I've never done it myself, just seen it done a few times so going by memory
23:51:09 <TGW> goblin ; bow . 10 arrow
23:51:16 <nrook> oh, .
23:51:25 <nrook> I tried ; and even |, but neither worked
23:51:31 <nrook> thank you!
23:54:12 <Ashenzari> "Cheibriados supports your attributes" multiple times (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=861) by TGW
23:55:57 <Textmode> night all
23:56:01 <TGW> night
23:56:22 -!- Textmode has quit [Quit: Leaving]
23:56:40 <TGW> what does "confirmed" mean wrt tiles?